>> there are lies and dam lies and both are present in the big world of casey anthony the accused mother at the center of the most closely watched case in child murder since the lindhburg kidnapping way back in the 1930s. >> how long have you known her? >> almost four years. it will be 4 year the christmas this year. >> who did you meet her through? >> a mutual friend jeffery michael hawkins. i met him at nickelodeon universal i met her through him. she was his son's nanny at the

time. >> you told them all of these stories were just one great fiction fiction, did you not? >> yeah, that's correct. >> it's not you. >> that is not me. >> she told me that she had not seen caylee in 31 days. that she had been kidnapped and that the nanny took her. >> what was the name that you received? >> zonita, fernandez gonzalez. >> prior to july 15th had you ever heard that name before? >> never. >> live and at large i am geraldo rivera.

as the prosecution marks the halfway point welcome to this special report. we are testing the state's evidence as they seek to send the troubled 25-year-old mom to the death chamber. we are in florida only two women have gone before. one of them is cereal killer. along with the best legal panel in television tonight we will be hearing from former detective mark fuhrman. i will ask the crack investigator whether he really discovered evidence helpful to the defense. first mark did you ever expect to be dragged into the center of another high profile murder case? >> well, not exactly at this level tell fiezed. the martha moxley case was pretty high profile but we didn't have cameras in the courtroom. it is kind of shocking and i think you were right there from the beginning in the last one 15, 16 years ago. strange. >> it's strange and yet what they told you, with someone told

you cindy told you about the swimming pool and the ladder relevant evidence, right, mark? >> it is relevant evidence but it was already stated to the police and they reiterated that to me and i made sure the police had heard that prior they did. >> i think it's probably one of the only pieces of information that actually points to a possibility of a cause of death. once again is it accidental or is it inflicted at the hands of another. in other words a drowning can be accidental or it can be intentional premedicat pre-medi you said yesterday an aggravated man slaughter in some form. >> good point. we will talk more with mark fuhrman. there's no doubt she is a consummate liar who created a galaxy of reality of friends.

>> i would like to talk to you about some of casey's imaginary friends. do you think eric baker exists? >> too many opinions. >> sustained. >> at some point in the months before she wept missing her mom begins a galaxy of imaginary friends. eric baker jeff hopkins and his son cole. >> tell me about jeff hawkins? >> she said she thought he was a nice young man and he was a friend and she was confideling ing in him about her relationship with jessie. >> jeffery had a child named zachary? >> yes. >> did you ever see a photograph of zachary? >> i took a picture of zachary and jeffery on casey's cell phone. the picture was of zachary and

jeff and she had him listed as boyfriend in her phone. >> who now can ever forget jeffery and zac's nanny zonita. >> you met her through jeffery hopkins? >> i did. >> jeff hopkins use to do watch over zac. >> you have known h her almost four years? >> almost four years, yes. >> you met her before you had a child? >> i met her before i was pregnant at the time. >> when does she start watching over your child? >> within the last year and a ha half, two years she began watching caylee. i had another friend watch her but i have known her since middle school. when i was looking for a new nanny jeff offered to have her watch both kids she agreed and they went from there. >> it turns out there is a jeffery hopkins but what about his son zachary? >> do you know casey anthony?

>> i do. >> when did you first meet her? >> probably middle school. >> would y how would you charac your relationship? >> acquaintances. >> were you ever friends? >> not good friends. >> did you ever introduce her to a woman named zonita gonzalez? >> i did not. >> did you ever use her as a nanny? >> no, sir. >> do you have any children? >> no, sir. >> there is no zac. the nation's most famous nanny? >> what did she tell you about zahn knee the nanny? >> she didn't call her zahny the nanny. she called her zahny. she said it was jeff's girlfriend and they lived in the same apartment complex and jeff pretty much offered zahny up as an extra person if casey ever needed a baby-sitter.

>> you had no idea that zahny was not a real person? >> no, i did not. >> to the original lie the accused uses rich detail to give life to her cast of characters spinning and spinning and i am pro advisi -- improvising. where should we look to find these people? here, there and every where. >> i need a potential place to look. look at charlotte. i know nannies have roots in north carolina. that is definitely miami and new york. her mother's name zonita fernandez gonzalez as well. >> no her mother is gloria. >> is it possible she could be staying with her, her mom could be staying with zanny's aunt in miami? >> it's possible. i don't know who in miami they

are staying with but it's a possibility. >> sending cops and media and friends to hunt characters that never exist. >> do you have any information that you have received over the lathes three years or since these people ever were mentioned that they are anything but imaginary people? oo i just found out that they are imaginary. >> and you testified under direct examination that up until about 6 weeks ago you were looking for zanny the nanny. >> yes, that's correct. >> that was for three and a half -- let me -- for two and a half years you were looking for zanny the than kn nanny? >> i was looking for zanny ever since caylee was missing.

>> her supported witnesses do not exist. >> mrs. anthony throughout all of these years, it never occurred to you that these stories and these people that casey was talking about were not real? >> no, sir. >> so therefore the reason during the 30-days that you had not seen caylee, you understood all of these things to be true just as the imaginary people? >> i trusted casey to never give me any reason not to believe in her. >> there is a zonita gonzalez a single mother of 6 who thinks casey plucked her name from a register of people looking at vacant apartments in a complex which she occasionally crashed. now she is suing casey.

>> at the beginning when i started people judged me so much and treated me like i was a kidnaper like i had done something bad. every where i went they judged me. i was taking my daughter to the hospital i had a guy in a pickup truck telling meefz going to kill me and kill my daughter he was going to do to my daughter what i did to caylee. i want my name cleared i want it to come out of her mouth that she made me up and i never did anything. >> you accuse someone of stealing your child kidnapping or stealing your child and you say i have been damaged? it is beyond anything i have seen in 25 years of lawyering. >> the panel will deal with her pathological lying but coming up next two deep dark secrets help explain this ab bore rent behavi

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abhorrent. >> it all began when she was 8 years old and her father came in and touched her apro in'appropry and it escalated and escalated. >> will at least one injure or find the possibility that casey was abused. >> you will be able to know what makes casey anthony behave the way she does.

why did she act if nothing was wrong? >> casey's lead attorney jose biaz paint ago picture of a dysfunctional family covering up sins other than the death of caylee anthony. brother lee allegedly attempting to abuse her. >> casey had a brother and he, too, wanted to follow in his father's foot steps. i at he attempted to also touchs sister although it didn't go as far t. got so bad the fbi did a paternity tis to see if he was caylee's father. >> the tapes seemed also to under cut her defense that this family was one plagued by sex accu abuse and incest. >> hey. >> good morning beautiful. how are you? >> good. how are you. >> i am doing better now i get a chance to see you.

>> i love you. i miss you. >> i know. i miss you, too. >> i am doing everything i can. i am doing everything i can to help you and help her. i wish there was more i could do. i would give my life right now for you and for her. >> i know that, dad. >> there are times i know you wanted to talk to me i wish i would have listened. all that is going to change. i am going to listen more. >> i love you. >> i know you do. i love you, too. i love you more than anything els else. i miss you sweet tee. >> i miss you, too. >> i miss your hugs. i miss that squeeze. that papa joe. i miss you so much. >> i am sorry i have been so tough sometimes. i am sorry.

>> dad, it's not your fault. it isn't. we all do things out of love and sometimes -- >> tough love. i know. >> exactly. it's not a bad thing. i want you to know that. you know how much i love you how much i always love you. you will always be my buddy even besides my dad. >> i know that. i had to say it to you. i needed to get that out. >> i know. >> was casey terrorized by the males in her family? >> tell lee i love him and i miss him and sorry i missed my visit from him. i felt so bad after i missed his visit. >> you be the judge? >> how are you? >> oh, man, i don't want to start crying. >> what i can tell you is my focus is on caylee my second focus is you. >> trust me you have no idea.

>> dad wishes he would have b -h i would have been a better dad and grandfather. >> you were the best father and by far the betts grandfather that i have ever met. i mean that with all my heart. don't for a second think otherwise. because i won't let you. >> let me go to our panel i want to read you an e-mail from the chief economic officer mercy saint vincent medical center. i don't know exactly where that is. he said zani the nanny is code for xanax used to drug a kid to get them to sleep. >> that is possible. xanax sounds a bit like zani. that could be used in that fashion. >> you think that's a possibility that's how it

occurred to her or it's random? way too specific of a name for her to pull out of name. >> moi understanding when they did the toxicology on the hair they didn't find any xanax in the hair. that excludes the possibility the maybe was put to sleep by zahn ak. >> have you ever heard of the banding in the hair? >> the banding in the hair indicates decomposition but it has never been used before in the fashion it is being used here to indicate that it had to come from -- >> from a dead person. >> the national academy of science report was specifically critical of microscopic hair analysis. it turns out that a large percentage of people who were wrongly convicted by dna, the microscopic hair analysis by crime labs including the fbi was

wrong. and i think that to take a single hair in which it doesn't have a root because usually the other hair didn't show banding is quite a stretch. >> joey jack conaty that stretch with the smell of death the stretch with no miranda warning they were so intent on capital murder conviction they pulled the stops out and pushed the limits of the law. >> pushing the limits of the law is what good lawyers do. you don't have to believe in a strand of hair but you have to believe numerous witnesses come on geraldo it smells awfully bad smells like death.

detectives who smelled death before and nurses who smelled death before. >> it could be a dead deer or dead raccoon. at the world trade center the dogs went to the busher shops where it was de composing. it is de composing soft tissue. >> standing alone it would be one issue. it doesn't stand alone. >> up next did mark fuhrman hand the defense alternate theory about the child's dro

>> tonight 16th when casey and

caylee are leaving at 12:30. the same night they swam in the pool. after they were done they taped a ladder which snaps off and they take it away from the pool so caylee can't climb up it by themselves. tuesday morning they noticed the ladder was back up on the pool hooked up and the gate on the side of the house was open. >> dowry call ever meeting a man by the name of mark fuhrman? >> i remember mr. fuhrman wanted to speak to us offer us any help he could with his expertise as a detective. >> he's not a detective, though, is he? >> not at that time he wasn't. >> he is a member of the media, is he not? >> at that time i found out after speaking with mr. fuhrman that he was working on behalf of

greta van susteren. >> did you tell mark fuhrman that you forgot to take the ladder down? >> no, sir, i did not. >> joining me is mark fuhrmfuhr. did you hear from the anthony family that the ladder was suddenly up that it had been taken down. >> it was what she said except i did greta's show and she asked to speak to me. she asked me to come over and spent 2 and a half, 3 hours most of the time i listened i asked a few questions she told me this information and before that show i made sure that the police had that information. >> did she testify truthfully, mark, when she said she did not tell you that you forgot to -- that she forgot to take the

ladder down? >> shy did not forget to take the ladder down. she said she emphatically did take the ladder down. when she saw it back up that she didn't know who did it. if i remember it right i think she said she thought maybe somebody came in the backyard a neighbor some kids and used the pool. but they were very obsessive about keeping that ladder off the pool when they were done swimming because she said caylee could climb the ladder and she knew that. >> the drowning alternative defense, does it resinate? is it barely possible can it generate enough reasonable doubt to lead one jour or to doubt? >> this evidence leads itself into that defense. do i think one jr. or is going

to buy the defense that she drowned accidentally? it's tough because you are linking that also with the fact that they are dad then knew about the drowning her dad then told her that her nom is going to be disappointed and hide the body. if it's an accidental drowning maybe. you are linking all of these things to the accidental drowning. now you are separating things out saying the drowning was accidental maybe she lied about this maybe she is telling the truth about this. there's a latin saying. i think mr. fuhrman knows this better than anybody. if you lie about one thing maybe you are lying about everything. that's the real trouble she is going to have here. >>ly let mark respond to that

never look a howler monkey in the eye. we built the entire library out of recycled bottles. fried ants are delicious. really. that was a confidence builder. my students actually ended up teaching me. so i learned this dance, let me show you this dance. (foreign language) the classroom was more of a class-tent. you think managing a sales team is tough... try working with five different villages. my alarm clock was a rooster. beans for breakfast, beans for lunch, beans for dinner. we ate a lot of beans. i learned a third language. my seatmate on the bus was a goat. always include the village elders, always.

my morning commute was by canoe. after two months i was ready to quit, but after two years, i didn't want to leave. i didn't know i had it in me. turn two years of service into a lifetime of experience. to all the peace corps volunteers past, present, and future, thank you for your service to your country and the world. from america's news headquarters i'm marianne rafferty. a levee breach into missouri forcing 600 residents from their homes in neighboring southwest iowa. crews at the scoon say it is likely due to holes in the levee. any serious breach could send millions of gallons of water pouring towards homes and businesses. locals are blaming the army corps of engineers who continues to open dams on the swollen river upstream. confrontation between israeli forces and demonstrators. syrian tv reporting at least 20 killed when israeli troops

opened fire. it came on the anniversary of the 1967 war when israel defeated combined arab forces. meanwhile, a human rights group says more than 1200 people have died in a crackdown on antigovernment protesters in syria. i'm marianne rafferty. now, back to "geraldo at large". for the latest headlines, go to fox news.com. large." >> cindy, do you know who the father of the child is? where is he? >> i never met caylee's father, but caylee's father is dead. >> do you know that for a fact? do you have documented proof? >> yes. there's an obit air re. the only thing is i do not remember his last name. i did see the obit ari. there is not a father listed on caylee's birth certificate. that was a mutual decision between casey and the father. >> may i ask you a few things

that the family of the father is in any way directly or indirectly involved in the child's life? >> absolutely not. >> she goes on to get angry at me. >> we are back live and at large. i don't know why. this is our report on the case against anthony. why are they so evasive? who is caylee's father. who is the child's father. >> geraldo one of the westerliedest mysteries in the casey anthony's case is who is the baby daddy? the list is long bizarre and creepy. boyfriends both dead and alive. the most disturbing being both her brother and father. >> this family must keep it's secrets quiet. it all began when casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately.

it escalated and escalated. >> you may proceed. >> the stunning opening statement by jose bias alleging sexual abuse opened the door on the mystery yet unsolved was caylee anthony the child of incestuous affair. >> casey wanted a brother -- lee wanted to follow in his father's foot steps and as a teen he also tried to assault his sister. it didn't go that far. it went to a paternity test to see if he was the father. >> they forced the parents to give samples. lee did not. he complied only after investigators served a war rant based on casey's statements to police. >> this fbi report from december

16th. 2008 cleared lee. >> i haven't talked since we were 6 or 7 years old sints we were little kids. >> why is casey anthony not talking about the father. >> when casey first told me who was pregnant naturally i asked her who the father was and she told me it was jessie grant. >> he was engaged from december 31st 2005 to may 28th, 2006. >> to 2006. >> the child was born in august, 2005? >> august, 2005. >> how do we know you are not the father of this child? >> afterwards i had a paternity test. >> read the paper now. come back here.

dave let's take a look at this. this is the dna parentage test report. i am going to hand the exhibit over to kimberly guilfoyle. what do you think? >> it is notarized has a seal looks official. probability of paternity 0 percent. >> there came a time when you found out jessie was not caylee's father? did you not? >> yes. >> subsequent to that, who did you think caylee's father was? >> she gave me a name offer rek baker. >> investigators found a kentucky death certificate for an eric baker who died in an auto accident. it has never been determined if he fathered caylee. >> is eric baker on caylee's birth certificate. >> no, nobody is on. no father is listed on caylee's birth certificate. >> casey made another claim about the identity of her father

telling a friend that he was a one-night stand named josh. he said he was from georgia and worked at universal studios. like her story about eric baker casey said josh also died in a car crash. >> it is so weird. i want to ask my favorite prosecutor stacy isn't the lack of a dad relevant? isn't it another personality who could be involved or is it totally just gossgossip? >> it is sgos sip. it is irrelevant. she has lied about nevering the past. she is giving a bunch of names. she hasn't told the truth before. i don't know why we are talking about the baby's father it has no role in this case. she is charged with capital murder he throughout theories he wants the jury to speculate. the judge is going to read an instruction that says a reasonable doubt is not a speculative imaginary or possible doubt. that is what we are all doing. we sit and speculate that's what

he is open whoing the jury will do instead of focusing on the evidence that is coming on the stand in the courtroom. >> if there is another side of this norco spon spur tors who knows. >> anything could potentially happen. i think they are sending out red herrings. you have to focus on what happened. all of these theories about it could have been an accident. if you want to say it's an accident accept full responsibility she put the baby in the trunk she was afraid of how people were going to perceive her instead of defense is getting everybody involved trying to get everybody confused she is guilty and the jury will make that determination quickly. >> what if she is telling the truth? >> this time as opposed to 17 other times she didn't tell the truth? listen. there's not been one thing, doctor, if she would have said one thing that was credible everything not only does she lie but what's problematic is she makes up lies on top of lies.

she creates functional tales. this is just the type of psych pathic person who is capable of murder. >> is it a psych pathic person who cannot tell the difference between right and wrong? >> i think she knows right from wrong, look, she creates fictional tales. she tells lies to tell lies. she creates characters. she creates addresses she is a psych path she is dangerous and guilty. >> i guarantee that jose when he got this case and he had to deal with her, i guarantee he called an expert. he's probably thinking, do i have an insanity defense. she knows the difference between right and wrong. down in florida you have to suffer from a mental disease or defect. because of that disease or defect you don't know the difference between right and wrong. the bomb ton li -- bottom line criminals lie after they do something and accuse other people.

susan smith said it was a car jacker. the run away bride said she was taken hostage and kidnapped. that's what happens people get caught up in their behavior and they lie. >> stacy, most people who lie don't kill people. everybody lies to some extent. and i think that what is not fair is i am not a lawyer but i assume lawyers if they make up things and lie in court, they are going to lose their license. i would image that if jose biaz or cheney mason say that there may be a sexual relationship they are going to present some evidence in their part of the case. >> stacy -- >> stacy is not going on the stand. >> what i think is they need something to back up what they

aresying. i would have reserved my opening until the end of the state case to see where the state was going to see what evidence was going to come out before you drop the bombshell and show the state where you are going especially where you are telling them these things whe what was going on. >> i am sure he is carefully gauging the progress of the trial. i am certain he has not made the decision on whether or not casey anthony is going to take the witness stand in her own defense. get ready to be mad at me again when i tell you why i am so certain that any conviction in this case is going to be reversed. who if anybody does casey trust? oo ♪ i thought it was over here... ♪

[car horn honks] our outbacalways gets us there... ... sotimes it just takes us a little longer to get back. ♪

>> mark fuhrman out of spokane washington. you think the miranda warnings were not called for in this case at that time>> they are working on ex dent circumstance. they are looking at a mother who could be a suspect. they are trying to find a live

trialed. at a certain point she becomes a suspect. best example is polly klaas case. the rescue clause of miranda is clear when they still believe the child could still be alive and the only course of action is the one before that. it applies whether they articulate this on the stand or not. >> let me say my peace and we are going to run some sound and debate it. most of the nation is appalled the idea of a guilty verdict. she didn't get a miranda warning. get used to it. i swear to you in any opinion it's going to happen. the constitution protects everyone even unpopular selfish narcissistic child killing sluts like casey anthony. they are protected, too. once she was caught in a series

of lies concerning a nonexistent nanny a nonexistent job at universal studios come on. your remalek should have given casey her miranda warnings. >> everything you told me is a lie. you told me this morning from zani and addresses and universal including people you never told me their names and i found them and talked to them. >> it was a very successful

interrogation. i hope we have guys like this in guantanamo those are issued without a miranda warning. the answer is clear she should have been given a bier miranda warning. >> she should have been mir ran diesed. >> that's what you think. i know you have been saying that. >> she had the right to a lawyer. she was part of an investigation she was a mother who claims she was looking for her child. they put her in a police car they put her there because she wanted to go to universal that's where i work. >> what happened when they got to universal? >> it's my understanding at some point -- (talking over one another) >> isn't she facing obstruction of justice case. >> you won't let me talk.

first of all i wasn't in a sorority i don't care about the sigma can is. i could careless if she was the lowest of lows or prom queen. who cares. the supreme court isn't looking to see if threes a narcissistic bad person so they don't read her her rights. they don't look at the totality how was she involved what information was she getting did she feel like she was not free to leave. would a reasonable person not think they couldn't leave. the prosecutors argued that in frocht of the judge the judge did not suppress it. there's a public safety exception specifically for missing children. you have an argument and i have an argument. >> geraldo. are we arguing that it is better to miranda and not use any kind

of instinct or intuitive feeling that you are close to actually learning something from somebody? the only person that knows anything about the child, but if you miranda and find a dead child which side of that fence would you want to be on? >> that is a false comparison. a veteran officer like you knows it's a false comparison. she lied about the apartment she lied about a job. they had her on obstruction of justice. >> i would rather see casey anthony -- she didn't know where her kid was. she could not have walked out of that conference room. she never walked free again. she didn't feel free to leave. >> but did she try? >> they told her at universal she was free to leave. >> did she try to get up out of the room and walkout. >> this went before the judge he discussed the issue. both sides could brief it and other rally argue. he determined it was a noncustodial investigation.

the police were asking questions she was not in custody. she was free to leave at that time. >> dr. michael baden -- hold it. would a 22-year-old already facing the consequences of her lies, the brice ster has come back to roost, after 31 days would she are felt free, excuse me you gentlemen excuse me 6 foot 5 inch cops where is she going to go? >> the answer is no, she would not have been able to think that way. >> thank you. this trial is fascinating. >> you don't know that and that's the constitution protects even the vile defendants. they have the right to remain silent. much more to discuss with our super panel. i am glad i have at least the forensic pathologist on my side. craig, what do you think?

>> we will be right back. >> thank you. thank you. ♪

>> casey, don't yell at me. i am on your side. >> i know you are. i know you are on my side. >> nobody is saying anything bad about you. your family is with you 100 percent. >> no they are not. i just watched (bleep) and there's everything my mom said nobody in my own family is on my side. >> on trial and in the fight for their life. >> i call to talk to you my mother and it's a (bleep) waste. i don't want any of you coming up here when i have my first hearing for bond and everything else. don't even (bleep) waste your time coming up here.

>> who if any one does casey trust? certainly not the cops. >> i am trusting the people who told me that because they want us to have that time. >> it is come directly from the sheriff aesz department i don't trust anything they said. >> once caught in her own web of lies she keeps even her family at arm's length. >> casey. >> mom. >> i just saw your nice little cameo on tv. >> which one? >> what do you mean which one? i did four different ones. i haven't seen them all. i have only seen one or two so far. >> you don't know what my involvement is and stuff? >> casey. >> mom. >> what? >> no. >> i don't know what your involvement is sweetheart. you are not telling me where she is at. >> because i don't (bleep) know where she is at. are you kidding me? >> don't waste your call screaming and hollering at me. >> waste my call sitting in jail? >> are you blaming me you are

sitting in the jail for telling lies. >> it's not my fault. >> what do you mean it's not your fault? >> there are issues between daughter and mom. >> did you discuss with her your feelings that she was jealous of you in some fashion? >> it was brought up to me by her ex fiancee. >> did you discuss with casey that you had these feelings that you thought she was jealous of you. >> was her version contradicted by the jail house taste revealed a softer side to the mother daughter relationship. >> would it make you feel like you are doing something? is there anything special you want me to do? >> just keep doing what you are doing. >> i love you mom. >> love you. >> listen, know that you can trust me. you can trust mom and you can trust lee. >> i know that.

>> just know that. >> given the awful secrets this family supposedly concealed. how will the defense counter this? >> i need to know who i can trust. i need to say get rid of the opportunities. >> most definitely. >> most definitely -- >> you can. >> again, -- >> is there anybody that you don't trust that you want me to be looking into? >> oh, god. honestly at the moment i don't know. i can't think of any one. >> do you think the tapes which i have never seen used in such abundance these jail house tapes of course the trial has been three years in the making will require casey anthony to get on the witness stand or on the other hand does it as joey has said make her such a lying, you know, deceitful person that no

testimony would be worth anything anyway? >> that is really the question at this point. like i said before she is got so many things that are not true. what are you to believe. that being said don't forget this is a first degree murder case. what evidence is the state going to prove, what evidence is the state going to put on that proves that it is a first degree murder case? >> hold on a second. is this a first degree murder case? >> absolutely. i don't know why you think it wouldn't be. >> how come you never sent a mother to death row before? the torturers the ones who starve their children, the one who beat their children, who sell their children, who skin their children. no one ever went to death row in florida. how come this one? why this woman? >> because she killed her child and she deserves to die for it. >> they all killed. >> i don't understand what the

problem is. >> the problem is there was -- >> look at the evidence. >> all right. mark fuhrman -- >> i looked at the evidence. >> mark fuhrman they didn't go for the death penalty with o.j. simpson. he cut two heads off. >> i think it's over filed and it's goi