now -- "america live" starts right now. jon: have a good weekend. megyn: fox news alert on new fallout from a decision by the obama administration about a project that would bring thousands of jobs and millions of barrels of oil to america. welcome to "america live," everyone, i'm megyn kelly. it was just 24 hours after the obama administration announced it would delay the massive keystone oil pipeline project for, quote, further review. the pipeline would have brought millions of barrels of oil direct from canada to the gulf of mexico, created thousands of construction jobs and provided a critical source of energy from a friendly ally. but now we are hearing that this delay may be a death sentence for the project. canadian finance minister jim flairty saying this morning, quote, the decisioning to delay it that long is actually quite a crucial decision. i am not sure this project would

survive that kind of delay. charles payne of the fox business network is with me now and, charles, they are now, the folks in canada who are behind this proposedpipeline, saying they are already now going to talk to china, and china wanted to get it hands on these oil sands, and now they're telling the unite, look, why would we wait around another 12 to 14 months just to get a maybe? we're going to turn to china. what kind of stakes are we looking at here for the united states? >> these are incredibly high stakes. we've talked a lot about the 20,000 american jobs, the 700,000 barrels of oil from a friendly ally every single day. but then there's also the notion that, you know, listen, china, china's been eating up these oil reserves. in the summer they made a $2 billion purchase, last summer they took a 9% stake, spent almost $5 billion.

they're taking over as much oil as they can, fossil fuels around the world. so this is a jobs issue. i think it's a security issue because forget about all the talk that you hear. however controls fossil fuels over the next 20, 30, 40 years controls the world. i think this is a mistake on so many levels. megyn: do you think this is a lot of puffery by the folks to just up the stakes on us, or do you think they are going to blow us off, we're going to lose this project once and for all because of this delay which, of course, president obama's critics are saying is politically motivate because he's kicking it until after the elections because he's going to disappoint core groups, environmentalists or unions. >> they've already made commitments. they've spent close to $2 billion on this project already, they've got commitments out there for construction, for labor, for energy. they've already put money out there. we blew them off, so you know

what? obviously, they're going to look at china. in fact, the finance minister is going to be in beijing later on this week, and it's ironic because the prime minister of canada thought this was a quote-unquote no-brainer to do this between canada and america. we've got disls of pipelines crisscrossing this nation at this very moment. this was a no-brainer, getting energy from a friendly ally that we need, jobs that we need also. and, of course, they're looking at china. that is the most viable option out this. they can also do it by ship through old, existing pipelines. but the point is, china's eager. they cut a check for an oil company this morning, and they would certainly be willing to step up in my mind. megyn: how many jobs are we talking about here? the president to have afl-cio, the unions want in the. it's an interesting situation because the unions want it, but the environmentalists don't. it puts the president in a tough position. he came out and said this

pipeline represents the prospect for 20,000 immediate jobs and as many as 500,000 indirect jobs. sounds like a big number. what do we think is the real number? >> we know 20,000 is certainly the real number. these are specialized jobs, megyn, so if they can't do this and have to take a job somewhere else, they'll make half of what they can make in another market. there are special skill sets. now someone may have the option of making $20, $30,000. ultimately, i would say 50,000 is not unreasonable. i don't know about half a million, but 50,000 in this environment is wonderful. it's something that's needed. by the way, what happens to the notion of energy independence? this is nuts. megyn: yeah. well, they say, you know, they just want to delay it to continue looking at it, but this is news that the canadian end is saying delay means possibly good-bye. charles, thank you. >> thanks a lot. megyn: job killers win, americans lose. that's the response to the controversy from one of america's largest labor uke ons.

same people who helped put barack obama back in the oval office back in '08, the labor's national union of north america saying environmentalists formed a circle around the white house. >> this is a president who goes around accusing the republicans every day of putting nation over party, politics over the national interest. this is an egregious example of that. the most egregious that i think this administration has made yet. megyn: well, the union went on to say that it hoped the decision would have been made on the basis of economics, facts and the best interests of the nation, not on the basis of a political calculation. this is the unions talking about this. we will debate this delay and the motives behind it with alan colmes and mike gallagher in about 20 minutes right here. an update for you now on another major story.

stunning developments in the penn state child sex abuse scandal as the investigation expands, now, to texas. police in san antonio looking into the possibility of building a criminal case against penn state former football coach jerry sandusky for an alleged incident there 12 years ago. back in pennsylvania we are learning the head coach -- now dismissed -- joe paterno has contacted a criminal defense attorney. trace gallagher live in our west coast newsroom with the very latest. >> reporter: and remember, megyn, this indictment has eight alleged victims, and the authorities in texas are now looking at the accusations of victim number four, alleged victim number four who claims that jerry sandusky sexually molested him on several occasions on the campus of penn state university, at hotels around the campus as well as in san antonio, texas, during the alamo bowl back in 1999. that was sandusky's final game as a coach after 30 years. in fact, we have a picture of the players actually carrying sandusky off on their shoulders. the alleged victim said that

sandusky threatened to send him home after he resisted sandusky's advances. the da in san antonio is looking at this now, and he said that he will leave it up to the local police as to whether or not charges are brought. now, there are now several reports that joe paterno has contacted a lawyer, a man named jay sedgewick who defended george h.w. bush during the iran contra scandal. now, remember, paterno has not been charged with a crime, but legal experts say depending on the allegations from other defendants, he could face criminal charges. he could also be skewed by the alleged victims -- sued by the alleged victims in civil court. paterno's family says they have not retained the lawyer, but several sources say the lawyer has, in fact, been hired. now, the mother of victim number one who triggered this entire investigation appeared on "good morning america" today. this was the sixth and seventh grade boy who said that he was abused many, many times, and he told his mom that he didn't know

what to do. he said, quote, you just don't say no to jerry. here's the mom after she says she read the indictment. listen. >> i was horrified. i was, i was absolutely horrified. i didn't even know that he was leaving the school with my child. i didn't know that he was taking him out of classes. they never told me that. >> reporter: yeah. mom and her son, by the way, both believe that joe paterno was rightfully fired, megyn. they're coaches, right? we respect them, we idolize them -- megyn: not so much. trace, thank you. >> reporter: okay. megyn: well, we'll have much more on the growing outrage over this child sex abuse scandal. mike mcqueary will not be on the sidelines tomorrow due to reported threats against his safety, but a number of sports writers are asking why is he still coaching this team? fox news alert now on a fox news exclusive on baby lisa

irwin's first barrett-- birthday. we have for the first time in hand her parents' cell phone records. deborah bradley and jeremy irwin, these could prove critical. we'll discuss it later with the family's lawyer at 1:45 p.m. today. but first, private investigator bill stanton who was working for the benefactor who has posted the reward in this case and has said all along his client is the truth and has seen the phone records is with me now. welcome back. >> thank you. megyn: all right, so these have proven -- you know, it's all about these phone records in part and whether any outgoing phone calls were made. the parents said the phones were restricted on october 3rd. the baby was taken overnight from the 3rd to the 4th. what have you seen? >> well, this -- as you said, this is so critical. there's a term called red lining, and that means you cannot make outgoing calls, but you can receive incoming calls. so sometime in the early

afternoon -- i'm not going to give the specific time -- that line, both jeremy's and deborah's, were red lined. they could not make outgoing calls. that's not to say attempts could not be made. megyn: okay. so if they had attempted a call, and we reported earlier on this broadcast this week that it was confirmed by joe tack pee that, their lawyer, that an attempted phone call was made at least at 11:57 by deborah's phone on the night in question. those would not necessarily be on the phone records that you've seen. >> that's right. they may not be on, and there's a number of reasons why. but what's more important, if that attempt is valid, if an attempt was actually made and we're hearing it was made to this megan wright, i think it's critical that you know who made that call, obviously. megyn: right. and i want to get to another critical piece of information that you have. now, you know the number of megan wright, and you in connection with the sources that you've been working with, with the family on this case, have

gone back and looked at deborah and jeremy's phone records for a year prior, and does that number ever appear again? >> my sources tell me, megyn, that as you say they went back a year on both lines. and as i sit here now, it's my understanding that number has never been dialed out or received. by this megan wright or her phone. megyn: so if deborah bradley's phone could megan wright on the night the baby went missing, according to the phone records, it was the first time it had ever been done on that phone. >> as my sources tell me, as you say, i know it sounds repetitive, but it is so important we get this correct was was we drill down to highlight every little thing, it's so important. so to put it bluntly, if this call was dialed for the first time and we have jeremy and we have deborah saying they don't know who megan is, and we have megan saying she doesn't know who deborah or jeremy is, then

who knows who here? megyn: that begs the question, who dialed that phone at 11:57 p.m. on the night the babe went missing. was it this homeless guy, jersey, who was picked up by the police on other charges? they say they've moved on from him, but they won't say they've cleared him. was it hem? because he does have a connection to megan wright. >> he absolutely does. and the connection is on again/off again boyfriend. they've lived together whether it be squatting in empty homes or in that house. and i'm not only looking at him, i'm looking at the people around megan wright, the people this commune gang-type, you know, group that's live anything that house. living in that house. you know, she said that the phone was out, but now others are saying she never lost possession of the phone. this is absolutely getting interesting, and it's going to my contention that i'm leaning that hpped from outside the -- this happened from outside the home. megyn: yeah. and i just want to reiterate

that he doesn't work for deborah and jeremy. he works for the benefactor. >> oh, absolutely. megyn: so there you have it from a man who's been on the scene. at this point, he does consider the theory of an intruder or kidnapper very viable. >> absolutely. megyn: got to go, thank you very much. >> 10-4. megyn: in three minutes, new polls put newt gingrich just a stone's throw from the lead in the gop race for president. michael reagan is next on what is going on here. and why is the united states about to take one of the powerful weapons we own and give it to a tiny country in the middle east? the answer may surprise you. and just in case black friday wasn't crazy enough for you, the nation's largest retailer is about to reinvent the wheel with black thursday. with diabetes, it's tough to keep life balanced. i don't always have time to eat like i should. that's why i like glucerna shakes. they have slowly digestible carbs

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megyn: well, it almost seems like he came out of to where. newt gingrich, whose presidential campaign was broken and in disarray just a few months ago, is now one of the front runners for the gop nomination. in the latest cbs news/new york times poll we're looking at a virtual three-way tie. herman cain hanging on to a small lead at 18% with mitt romney and gingrich tied for second place at 15%. and all of these numbers are within the margin of error. political consultant michael reagan is chairman of the reagan group. michael, i mean, they had said he was done, that you could stick a fork if his campaign as recently as this summer. and now according to this latest polling he's basically tied for first. what is behind it? >> yeah. that was a long, long time ago in a place far, far away. and the comeback is dramatic, but it's dramatic because as bad as rick perry has done in the

debates, that's how great newt gingrich has done in this those debates. they have watched him, he has answered the questions, he has not attacked the opponents. if anything, he has attacked the moderators in the debate which are the enemies of those on the right that'll be voting in the these primaries and caucuses coming up, and it's lifted him up to where he is today. i expect him to go higher. megyn: and that i just want to let our viewers know that a mcclatchy poll just came out today, and mcclatchy's poll -- although it's a smaller sample -- has a similar result. it shows romney at 23%, gingrich in second at 19%, cain at third with 17%. and that's all within the margin of error. i mean, michael, i -- it's like gingrich, he doesn't have a big staff, he doesn't have a lot of dough, as far as i know he hasn't been doing a lot of on the ground work. it's been these debates. >> can it has been the debates. the one he did with cain over the weekend was phenomenal, the one he did there the woodlands

in texas where people could listen to him actually come up with solutions to the problems we face today, same thing for herman cain. people know mitt romney. he's been around for so long now, there's nothing new about mitt romney. now know who he is, what he's selling. that's why you don't see him go up or downment of his biggest problem is that mitt romney can relate to the person who owns the water cooler, but he's yet to relate to the person who takes water from the water cooler. that's what herman cain does and that's what, in fact, newt gingrich is beginning to do, relate to those people and say i've got the solutions. i did it in the '90s when i was speaker of the house, i can do it now as president of the united states. megyn: look at the that jeect ri just from the beginning of september where he was down into the single dim psychiatries. of he was actually lower than this, but 7% in the early part of september and now up to 15 or even higher if you based it on the mcclatchy policy. i want to ask you this, michael, it seems like he may be the

beneficiary of some erosion in the herman cain support, that some of the conservatives are looking at quick rich more -- gingrich more. it may be in part because of the controversy cain has suffered over the past two weeks. but gingrich himself has, you know, some history there. he's been married a few times, and he openly admitted to cheating on his wife, could have been two wives, i'm not sure. is that going to come back to haunt him? because we've heard romney and perry repeatedly stress how they've been married to the same woman their whole lives, huntsman the same thing. does that come back to hurt gingrich or prevent him from winning? >> it's not new. people know about that, so it's not new news coming out. newt gingrich has been married three times. they know that. he's dealt with it, he's talked about it, he hasn't run away from the issue at all. he realizes that it is, in fact, out there. but remember, most people in this country have been divorced and married again. ronald reagan was divorced and married again. it was a big issue back in 1980.

they worried about my father, and they worried about my sister maureen and i being out there campaigning for ronald reagan. we had a meeting with the campaign staff one day because they wanted to keel with that because -- deal with that because having us campaigning for ronald reagan meant he'd been married before, and they didn't want people to know that ronald reagan has been, or was married to jane wyman before nancy reagan. big issue. megyn: wow. michael reagan, thank you so much. pleasure as always. >> thank you. megyn: well, new questions about attorney general eric holder and a gun-running sting gone very wrong. but this time the questions come from the parents of a border guard who lost his life to one of the -- to a man holding one of the guns that got away. a fox news exclusive ahead. plus, honoring those who risk their lives to defend our freedom. today is veterans' day. we remember their bravery and their sacrifices.

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megyn: this veterans' day, honoring the sacrifices so many men and women have made for our freedom. president obama lay ago wreath at the tomb of the unknowns and a gold star mother vowing never to forget, taking a tribute journey honoring all veterans and the son she lost from war. rick leventhal in new york city today. rick? >> reporter: and a beautiful day, megyn, on fifth avenue here for this veterans' day parade. we've seep world war ii vets roll by, tuskegee airmen, some medal of honor recipients and one very special gold star mom. her name is kathy cross, and here's her story. >> aye heard about -- i've heard about you.

>> reporter: katherine cross calls this her tribute journey. >> i have a greeting card for you to thank you for your service. >> reporter: traveling from maine to california visiting veterans in hospitals and at memorials delivering hugs, candy, gifts and cards she illustrated and wrote. >> it says, and then on steps we gather today -- >> reporter: katherine's son tyler was training as a navy seal when he died nearly ten years ago. she says this is part of the healing process. >> from i come collecting the hugs i i can't have anymore, and it's just wonderful. >> reporter: she and her friend hans hanson have spent the last few weeks visiting 19 states handing out thousands of cards and countless smiles. >> thank you for your military service. >> thank you so much. it's authentic, it's real. >> it makes a difference because there was no welcoming, there was no appreciation when we came home, and this is like catching up for it.

>> reporter: how long do you keep doing this? >> as long as i possibly can. it would break my heart, truly, to have to stop. i love what i do. >> reporter: and katherine is in this parade somewhere, megyn, and says she'll continue thanking the veterans every single day of her life. back to you. megyn: god bless her and all those who have sacrificed for us. rick, thank you. new developments on our top story. there are reports that a delay this a critical oil pipeline project could be a death sentence for thousands of u.s. jobs. we'll explain why three minutes away. and the white house reportedly has a plan to increase pressure on iran by putting more bombs in the region. powerful bunker busters. we're live from d.c. to go over that one. plus, brand new exclusive information just coming in now to "america live" on the search for baby lisa. her family's attorney joins me live moments away, and we will ask him some critical new details just coming in right now to us about deborah's phone

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mexico city. now, the secretary of the interior there oversee internal political affairs and security. more as we get it on that. thousands of jobs, billions of dollars in revenue all in danger of evaporating after a decision by the obama administration. the state department delaying a decision on whether or not these plans should be allowed to expand the key toni oil -- keystone oil pipeline. now, it passes through a sensitive aquifer that supplies more than a million people with water, but canada likely will not sit on billions of dollars of oil exports or so they say waiting for our administration to choose between environmentalists and labor unions and jobs. >> this is a president who goes around accusing the republicans every day of putting the nation over party, politics over the national interest. this is an egregious example of

that. the most egregious that i think this administration has made yet. megyn: alan colmes and mike gallagher, a fox news contributor: alan, let me start with you. >> it's more than just about jobs. obviously, you have to take a lot of things into conversation. this is an issue where this pipeline would likely pollute water for 1.5 million people. i know what mike gallagher's going to say, let's call them whacko environmentalists, pandering to a base that he needs for election, so i'll do both parts. [laughter] the fact is that everything the president does by his detractors will be looked upon as some kind of political maneuver. you have to consider the fact that this would harm the environment, and they're now talking about rerouteing it, finding another place to go, another pipeline to use, and this may be just delayed, not permanently canceled. megyn: the problem with the delay, mike, is that now the folks in canada behind the pipeline are saying delay probably means death, and they're already going over to talk to china about reroute

anything a way that would get them the supplies instead of us. >> i tell you what, i'll like your idea, alan, i'll be you, and you be me. [laughter] >> you don't want to do that, mike. >> and 20,000 jobs is important except if it comes for, comes to polluting the snail darter. >> it's kids. do you want children to have drinking water that's polluted? >> i didn't want interrupt you. >> you're right. >> and more importantly, it's offending these greenies, these cooks who are -- cookes who are very important to the obama re-election chances. so this is a brilliant timing on his part. let's wait until after the election, we'll deal with all of this later, but in the meantime, as megyn points out, 20,000 jobs may be sacrificed in the name of political expediency. >> again, see, i predicted what you were going to say. i am kreskin. so the fact is we don't care about kids, we don't care about drinking water. if people get polluted, so be it. it doesn't matter. >> can you're amazing.

>> the fact that the president -- megyn: the thing is, alan, the state department had once promised a conclusion on this by the end of the year, and now, you know, they've postponed it, now the obama administration is postponing this until after the 2012 elections -- >> well, because they'd rather -- megyn: do you think that's pure coincidence? >> >> of course, the cynics like some of you people might think that it's not coincidence. however, the fact is that you want to wait until all the information is in. if there's an alternate route that can be used, another modality, maybe this'll push us even faster towards solar and wind power so that we don't have to depend upon oil all the time which is often harmful to the environment. megyn: mike, is it -- >> hey, alan -- megyn: here's the interesting thing to me, mike, you've got two of the president's core groups on either side of this issue, labor unions who say this is going to create thousands and thousands of jobs, and then the environmentalists who prove to be a lot more powerful than the canadians anticipated ask

farmers, for that matter, in the midwest who don't like this either. but the president had to choose. and apparently, he chose the environmentalists over the labor unions for now to try to punt this thing down the road so the groups will be motivated in november. >> there's big bucks, there's big bucks behind this whole green thing. i mean, the stock value of green energy companies has already dropped in the last several months because investment analysts think that an obama loss will prompt gop legislators to -- >> you know, megyn -- >> it's all about the money. >> wait a minute, megyn made a great point because if we went with the unions, then you'd say it's all about the unions. look at all the money -- >> alan, alan, do you really -- >> you would attack -- >> do you really feel this isn't politically related? >> yes. >> are you, can you say that with a straight face? >> mike, do we ever give somebody the benefit of the doubt and not presume that everything to do is cynical -- >> not with this bunch. no, no, no, this guy --

[inaudible conversations] he doesn't anticipate the pushback over and furious. listen, this is a very big deal. all we've heard from both parties, alan, is it's all about the jobs. these are 20,000 american jobs being flushed down the toilet r you kidding? >> well, flushed down the toilet, hopefully, that's a little better than toilet water. where are the jobs now that we have the republicans in the house? is mr. boehner said he would be creating jobs -- megyn: all right, now we're going off point. >> it's not off point. that is the point. we're talking about jobs. megyn: no, no, we're talking about whether this, the decision was political and why the president made it and whether it's, what the effects are going to be on the united states. let me ask you this, alan, because the president told a local tv station in nebraska, quote, folks in nebraska like all across the country are not going to say to themselves, we'll take a few thousand jobs if it means our kids are potentially drinking water that would damage their point. i think that's probably a legitimate point, that people

don't want to trade jobs for their children's safety. but the reason people are casting doubt, alan, is because the state department, as i mentioned, was moving toward a decision on this. they originally said by the end of december. >> because they, obviously, could not assert that the water would be fine that can there wouldn't be pollution, and they want to err on the side of environmental safety. and the president put it exactly correctly, let's err on the side of making sure the people have safe drinking water and not necessarily on the side of the unions if he went the other way. megyn: quick comment, mike. >> the u.s. chamber of commerce issued a statement, this is clearly a political decision. everybody knows it. once again, alan, your guy is against the business community. the u.s. chamber of commerce, jobs, it's -- >> he's against jobs. he's actually saved or created -- megyn: unicorns, rainbows -- [laughter] alan, mike, thank you. >> yeah, puppy dogs. [laughter] megyn: coming up right after this break, we have big,

breaking news in the baby lisa case. it is a bombshell development into the investigation into her disappearance. just coming into us, brand new information regarding deborah bradley's cell phone, and what we have just learned could be critical to this case. ther wynn family attorney -- the you are win family attorney is here live. plus, the man who told joe paterno that he actually was an eyewitness to a young boy being sexually -- well, abused at a penn state athletic facility is now being pulled off the field for tomorrow's game because of threats to him. just ahead, new questions about why he is still on this team at all. >> i guess right now mike mcqueary will be coaching on saturday. that'll be a game time decision where he is. [ male announcer ] in blind taste tests, even ragu uss chose prego.

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megyn: fox news alert, in the search for missing baby lisa irwin of missouri. new and potentially bombshell information in this investigation regarding deborah

bradley, that's the mother, her cell phone records. as we here at "america live" first reported this week, investigators on this case have told the family that they have phone records proving that even though deborah bradley and jeremy i -- irwin's phones were restricted on the day the baby went missing, a call was attempted on deborah's phone that night, at a time in which investigators -- told investigators she was sleeping. megan wright, who lives in a questionable house and tells police and others she does not know deborah or her husband jeremy and says she did not get any calls or voicemails. now we here at "america live" are learning that at 3:17 a.m. and at 3:32 a.m. that same night someone tried to access deborah bradley's voicemail on deborah's phone, and someone also tried to use the internet on that phone repeatedly.

joining me live now for the first time, the attorney for the irwin family, john pacerno. these events are starting to create a timeline of the night this baby girl went missing that you believe could support an intruder theory. tell us why. >> that's right. thank you, megyn, for having me, and happy veterans day. the timing of everything is just as you just said in your opening comments about there is no other evidence other than the fact that debbie was asleep after midnight, she went to bed after 10:30, she was asleep throughout the morning. this phone problem that they had was when the phones were cut off. they could only receive incoming phone calls and texts from early in the afternoon. she received a -- her husband -- not her husband, her fiance, jeremy, tried to contact her early in the evening to tell her he was going to be late coming

home. it went direct to the verizon message, you know, stating that the phone is, you know, not operable. and then the next thing that we have is fbi confirmation that at 11:57 p.m. according to the phone records that they showed both to joe and myself, that there was an outgoing phone call to megan wright that lasted approximately 50 seconds. there's absolutely no other phone calls that were ever made between the two. the fba has all the records. there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that these two people knew each other or that in any way were connected. megyn: and then the next phone record that evening shows somebody attempted to call deborah's voicemail at 3:17 and 3:22 a.m.? >> >> that is correct. along with the fact that the internet browser was activated five times, although from the records you can't tell exactly the time that the buttons were pushed to search the internet. megyn: so was the internet successfully accessed, do we know? >> i believe so. i don't believe that there would be a record of it. megyn: okay. and so are the feds telling you

what, if anything, was searched if something was searched? >> no, that wasn't discussed when we were there. we actually saw the phone records, we saw the ping records as well. and that part was not discussed. megyn: and the ping records, where do they show -- how far away from the home did the cell phones get? >> anywhere from one-fifth of a mile up to one-third of a mile in a sort of a, if you can visualize the baseball field, from their house. and that's in the wooded area behind their house all the way down to the banks of of the missouri river. megyn: so the cell phones never got more than a third of a mile away from the irwin home. >> not according to the powerpoint presentation that the fbi showed to mr. tacopina and myself on november 1st when we met with them for approximately three hours. megyn: you can argue this either way, as you know, and we've been sure to underscore to our viewers that they need to keep

an open mind. we don't know what happened. there could be a baby girl who's out there right now who needs our help. but if you want to argue it, you know, the prosecution might in a case against the parents, they could say 11:57 p.m. deborah tries to call somebody, megan wright on her phone according to our reporting lives in a house at which crystal meth is used regularly, and our witness who lives in that house says she also is a user. deborah bradley's calling her, perhaps for drugs, perhaps for some other reason. doesn't get through, something happens with the baby, and who else would be calling deborah's own voicemail at 3:30 in the morning than deborah? talk that through with me. >> sure. the 11:57 call, um, the phone number that was dialed was megan wright's. again, these two people don't know each other. if you were going to call somebody for a drug connection, you would have their number and would have called it in the past.

the only person who would dial that number of megan wright would be somebody who knew her phone number. obviously, from where we're looking at since we know that deborah and jeremy had no knowledge of this person even existed, the only person that has been involved in the investigation thus far that knew that phone number was jersey. megyn: now, the police are saying that they've moved on from jersey, and we have heard reports that jersey has an alibi for the critical hours of that evening. is that what you have heard as well? >> i have heard that they've moved on from jersey, i have not heard that he had a solid alibi. megyn: okay. we haven't confirmed that. it's just you hear things in the case, and they may or may not be true. okay, so explain why would jersey, if he had this phone, why would he be trying to access deborah's voicemail at 3:30 a.m.? >> >> why would anybody be trying to access the voicemail, especially somebody who knew you couldn't because the phones had been turned off? so the owner of the phone had known that the phones were no

longer operable, and that doesn't make any sense for someone to try to collect their voicemail. megyn: maybe she knew -- can okay -- >> i can't hear her anymore. megyn: can you hear me? john? sorry, we're trying to work on our connection with john. hold on a second. john, are you there? john? i can see him -- >> i can't hear anybody. megyn: can you guys talk to john in his ear? perhaps you can ask him my question. sorry, folks, this is what happens on tv sometimes. of course, in the middle of a compelling interview, that's when it always happens. stand by because he was very forthcoming, and this is important information. just to recap what we've learned so far in this broadcast, it was not just an 11:57 p.m. phone call that was attempted by deborah bradley's phone, but there were also two more calls, one at 3:17, one at 3:22, those two attempting to call deborah's

voicemail. moreover, what we've just learned is those cell phones according to police never left a one-third of a mile radius around the irwin home. we need to learn more about the context for that, and i want to bring john back. my apologies to him, something happened with the feed, but we'll get him back on, and we thank him for coming on with this important information. well, coming up, herman cain taking a hit at the polls as the presidential candidate gets tried in the court of public opinion. is he still a top contender? we'll ask tony perkins, one of the country's top family values conservatives when he joins us live about 15 minutes away. and just in case black friday wasn't crazy enough for you, the nation's largest retailer is about to reinvent the wheel. welcome to black thursday. say good-bye to your turkey. eggland's best eggs.

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megyn: well, we believe we have the attorney back, john picerno. can you hear me? >> >> i can, megyn. thank you. megyn: all right. my apologies. i though you believe this information could support the theory that this homeless guy, jersey, who's in custody on other charges, could be the man who possibly took this baby, perhaps breaking into the house, trying to make a call at 11:57 and trying to access the voicemail at 3:17 and 3:22. if phones never got more than one-third of a mile radius away from the irwin home, does that suggest to you -- and if it was jersey calling the voicemail at 3:30 in the morning, that would suggest he sat within up with-third of a mile within the irwin home from the time he got in there around midnight until 3:30 in the morning. why would he do that? >> okay. first of all, there's a big point we need to mention in terms of the voicemail access. what was hit was actually the

code to get to the voicemail which was star 86, and that was hit twice. and that doesn't get you into the voicemail, that gets you to the access of the voicemail, and at that point you'd have to punch in your personal code unless it was preset. and once again, that supports the fact that the opener of that phone knowing that that phone had been turned off would have no reason to dial the voicemail to find out anything because they know that it doesn't work. so that makes absolutely no sense. in terms of -- and i'm not saying that it's this jersey guy. it could very well be him, it could be one of his cohorts, it could be anybody, any number of people. and, you know, i've been doing this for 20 years, and the actions of drug addicts and what they're doing and when they're doing it is never logical. and so the pings, it's my understanding the pings would continue to go off those towers unless and until the batteries were removed. so, you know, i have no idea what happened to the phones. we haven't seen them, and i have no idea what happened to the movement of the phones --

megyn: two quick questions for you, john. >> sure. megyn: have you any reason to believe that deborah has a drug problem or has tried this drug of choice from this house, meth? >> none. megyn: okay. and secondly, earlier it was reported that you had suggested the police told them they're isn'ts. is that the case? >> i haven't said that they suggested they told them they were suspects. our information both from deb -- deborah and from mr. zone o'brien who was an attorney that accompanied them down on october 8th which was the third interview/interrogation that they had willingly appeared at, that the detectives in charge of the interrogation were accusing deborah of being involved and know what's going on. megyn: yeah, we know that. she told us that as well, but the cops say she's not a suspect. i just wanted to confirm that for the record. all the best to you, sir, thanks so much for being here. >> you're very welcome. thank you for having me. megyn: penn state has pulled up

with of it coaches from this weekend's game for his own safety. ahead we'll talk to a former attorney and sports writer who says mcqueary may have a lot more to worry about than a missed game. and the family of murderedvi and the family of murderedvi border agent brian terry is happy with attorney general eric holder. for their clients' futures. never taking a bailout. helping generations achieve dreams. buy homes. put their kids through college. retire how they want to. ameriprise. the strength of america's largest financial planning company. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you, one-to-one. together, for your future. ♪

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megyn: fox news alert. the heartbroken parents of murdered border patrol agent brian terry speaking out about the grief and betrayal they feel over the department of justice it has handled the murder of their son. brian's father caughting the attorney general -- calling the attorney general a liar. until now we never knew their reaction to the fallout from operation fast and furious, the botched gun running sting operated out of the phoenix,

arizona office of the atf that gave a gun to some bad, bad people in mexico that was ultimately used to kill their child. william lajeunesse just spent time with the terry family. >> reporter: the family laid brian to rest 9 months ago. the family remained silent until now. i'll give you a few bullet points that represent their feelings and point of view. the atf and u.s. attorney's office need to know brian terry was not collateral damage as they were referred to by one of the agents. they feel indebted to the whistleblowers who came forward with this. again, josephine terry claims the former u.s. attorney here

dennis burke lied to her months after brian died claiming that the whistleblowers were lying when documents show burke knew they were telling the truth. next they blame the assistant attorney general lanny brewer for not stopping "operation fast & furious" when he learned the atf was helping argument cartels. finally they blame all those at atf, washington and the department of justice who knew and approved this operation, including attorney general eric holder. >> i say to him, you could have been a man and at least come to the family, the mother and father of brian terry and give your condolences. you had a chance to do that when you were in washington. you didn't do that. you acted like it was going to foe away and it didn't. >> holder knew about it, the

president knew about it. i think anybody should be prosecuted for the innocent people that were murdered in mexico. >> reporter: the family was convinced there were enough bright people at atf and doj who knew about this and could have or should have stopped it and their son would be alive today if they had don't right thing. the family is going to file a wrongful death claim against the government and i'll i'm told it will be big. megyn: now to the penn state child aintiews scandal. we are learning a key anything this case will not coach tomorrow. the receiver's coach mike mcqueary has received multiple threats. he's the man who reported seeing

jerry sandusky sexually assaulting a child. he walked in on it. that's when mcquery saw sandusky molesting a 10-year-old boy on march 1, 2002. they saw him as well. mcqueary says he went to his office and called his taught more told him to come home. the next day mcqueary went and told head coach joe paterno we had seen. paterno reported it to the athletic director. a week and a half went by before mcqueary was called into a meeting with the athletic director and a school vp. they told him they would look into the alleged rape. they are charged with failure to report. a couple weeks after that happened, the athletic director

told mcqueary that and -- and sandusky's locker room keys were taken away and it had been reported to his chairity. none of these people ever reported any of this to the police. mcqueary's connection to it all was only revealed last saturday. ellis, it's just -- this particular -- this particular man's role in it has raised a lot of eyebrows. he walked in on it. he walked in on it and he didn't stop it. he turned around and left. and he's going to be coaching the players on this team in this season. how can it be? >> i'm not so sure he's going to coach. he is not going to be soon the

sideline as you just reported and the university taking that position because of those threats or at least ostensibly that's why. this won't necessarily be a long-term issue with mike mcqueary. in all likelihood there will be a clean slate. a new athletic director and a new head coach and i suspect as with all new coaches they will have a new staff. there may and person or two held over. but with mike's connection to this it with strike me as being unlikely. this won't have a long shelf life. i will tell you while there has been a lot of reaction to what mike did or didn't do, i haven't felt the same smoarl outrage we saw with graham spanier or joe paterno. and i'll tell you why. there are people like you and like many folks who say, wait a

minute, he's a big strapping guy. he has to immediately stop it. there are other people who say, wait a minute, he was freaked out by what happened. who knows how any of us would have necessarily respond. he did take some action. that's pretty important in all of this. for one important reason. there are a couple of persons here that need to have what mike did analyzed in connection with it. what i mean is joe paterno. whenever there is an ncaa regulation, somebody gets jewelry or cars or tattoos. one of the big issues the ncaa looks at is an institutional control issue. that's what they will do with coach paterno. analyze whether a culture was created in with which mike mcqueary operated. megyn: that works on paper. this coach walked in as sandusky

is murdering a little boy. there would be no question he would have to step in necessary was afraid for his own life and he wouldn't stop with i reported it to coach paterno. he would call the police. is this so much less shocking and horrific? >> i understand that. and i understand your outrage. you are not alone with it. i'm trying to put it in the context that existed at that time which may have been an investigation may reveal to have been a culture that if it did aid and abet -- it might have tolerated it or or enabled it. look at it this way. this has been investigated thoroughly. the governor of pennsylvania who is part of the board of trustees who convened the grand jury who knows more than anybody the details of this. who has been passionate, open and demanding on what the university needs to do,

presumably heard by the board of trustees in that record. at this point he's not out there saying you need to get rid of him. to the extent he's not been removed i have to understand there has been some implied acceptance to that. and i don't think that's insignificant. i'll say this. i saw dwred in the associated press, relative to pennsylvania reporting laws when it comes to this type of matter, that's the third element. the moral outrage is understandable. but it needs to be analyzed with respect to pennsylvania's reporting laws and they are dramatically different than those around the country. that will play a role in how this plays out including with mike mcqueary. megyn: they are going based on who has moral responsibility as well. and there is a question about whether this guy should have done more. after this incident he went golfing with sandusky and there

is a question about how he could possibly do that and now he's out there on the football field coaching young boys. i appreciate you coming on and offering his side. our viewers have been asking those questions. we are going to have much more on this coming up in "kelly's court." should this guy mike mcqueary face charges in this case? is that even possible? our legal panel takes up the case. we are getting reports that washington is considering selling one of our most powerful weapons to a small country in the middle east. the obama administration is said to be offering bunker busting bombs to the united arab emirates. doug mcelway live in washington with the details on this. >> reporter: this potential deal includes the sale of literally thousands of

bunker-busting or j-dam bombs to the united arab emirates. since iran's nuclear research is being conducted underground, and recent weapons sales to saudi arabia, bahrain. quatar and kuwait, it appears the u.s. or seconds secretary of state hillary clinton has called an umbrella. if a defense -- if an attack is coming it would not be brought by the u.s. >> you have got to be careful of any kind of consequences here. those consequences could involve not only not really deferring iran from what they want to do,

but more importantly it could have a serious impact notice region and have a serious impact owfnlt s. forces in the region. >> reporter: iran admitted sanctions imposed by the u.s. and the international community have damaged its economy, but have not deterred this nuclear ambition. megyn: a brand-new poll on how the tea party may be moving away from herman cain. we'll talk with tony perkins on how the candidates' recent troubles could affect his nomination. plus we have from the family of murdered border patrol agent brian terry a statement. his father calling the attorney general eric holder a liar saying he should resign. the new debate over that ahead. >> i would like to see holder step down. i would like to see him step down.

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megyn: new developments on what were plans for a joint news conference featuring the four women who have leveled sexual harassment allegations against presidential candidate herman cain. the news conference has been called off. apparently they don't all want to participate. a new poll shows mr. cain losing support with women, dropping down to 15% from 28%. he's also losing ground with conservatives. tony perkins is familiar president of the family research council. >> there are two questions conservatives are asking.

either this is a case where women cooked up these allegation against herman cain or he's a master chef in deception. we'll find out real soon. megyn: if we never find out, if it drops off as it is now with a question mark over it, what would you do? >> i think people are waiting to see if there is another shoe that's going to drop. these are serious allegation. even in this day where everybody can define that it own morality. for a person in a position of influence to exploit someone sexually is still wrong. i think conservatives are hoping this isn't true and they hope the best for herman cain. liberal media has attacked every true conservative that has gotten out front. michele bachmann, they went after her for two months until they drove her down in the polls.

rick perry to a lesser degree. i think they are giving her the benefit of the doubt. they want a conservative who can take on president obama and his liberal policies. megyn: do you feel torn? i assume wouldn't want to support a candidate who had done that. >> i know herman cain, i have known him for a number of years. i like her man. i have a hard time believing this about her man. i have know he's very outgoing. he gets along with everybody. but these are serious allegations. so i'm reserving judgment. megyn: the polls show it many hurting him with the tea party. he was at 32% with the tea party, now he many at 19%. >> but he's still in the lead. it tells me more about the on tern tough people are look at as

opposed to herman cain. megyn: could you get behind mitt romney? >> i think there are some problems with mitt romney. conservatives see -- he doesn't talk a lot about con values. but record means a lot more than rhetoric. when you look at his record, there are some real problems. megyn: if he winds up tbghts nominee do you support him over barack obama? >> if he does become the nominee the liberal press will dig deeply into his record where he was on special rights for oklahoma oh sexuals. megyn: but you have got to like him better than barack obama. >> i embrace his stated positions. but the media comes after him suppressing conservative vote by going after his record. megyn: what about gingrich? the latest poll has him tide for

second almost first. >> this goes against those saying it's going to be mitt romney. what you see happening is you see -- first it was michele bachmann, then it was herman cain. megyn: does it bother you newt gingrich has a couple marriages under his belt? >> he addressed that head on when he was considering running in 2008. here is what he has going for him. in every debate -- every time he opens his mouth there is something of value that come out. he's brilliant. he has played the senior statesman role. not a flash in the pan. he's slow and steady. his issues are not unknown. they are known, conservatives consider them. i think he will have trouble with women because i think women with excuse one or two issues, but he has some significant

issues when it comes to women and with women voters. that's one reason they are hanging on to herman cain. rick santorum hasn't had his day yet in the sun. he might be the next one people turn to. megyn: do you believe we'll have a gop president come 2012. >> the nation needs it. the nation cannot sustain another four years of barack obama and his liberal policies that are fiscally and socially destroying the country. megyn: all the best to you. thank you, sir. are we seeing the beginning of the end for traditional thanksgiving. up next some think a change of plans for retailers could impact the way families celebrate the day. remember black friday? welcome black thursday. police are looking at a familiar face in the search for a 2-year-old boy. why investigators want his mother to clear up her story. >> at this point the issue of

forcing her into talk to us isn't on the table. we are hoping sky is out there alive and well. we are conducting this investigation. we are hoping she'll come in and talk to us.

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megyn: walmart is ignoring the calendar and starting its shopping spree a day earlier on thanksgiving night. say good-bye your family time. >> reporter: stay up all night. move black friday up to turkey thursday. the reality is, retailers are hurting. the numbers are down. but black friday is good for

them. the average shore on black friday spent $365.34. the year before, $343. the hope is if you open earlier you can make even more money. here is a list of the stores. the list of stores opening early. walmart will open at 10:00 at night to give you good deals on home goods and other things. by midnight you have got best buy, kohl's, macy's, even kmart. in 1980 when megyn kelly was nestled snug in her bed, she was thinking about bashies or easy bake ovens. you know what she was thinking about? stretch arm strong.

>> he stretches, even ties in knots. but always returns to his original place. megyn: i cannot believe this. >> reporter: would mama kelly go out at midnight on thanksgiving and go and get stretch arm strong. megyn: i did not now were going to do that. i did not know you had that commercial teed up. i have been open about my love for stretch arm strong. you knew it. >> reporter: it was great. i remember stretch arm strong. but would mama go out and get stretch arm strong at midnight on thanksgiving, i think not. megyn: my mom had pictures of my brothers and my sisters because they were older and none of me.

i said what's the deal? she said you were the third kid, we weren't as excited. i would say no she wouldn't have done that. >> reporter: i was the third kid. megyn: we would be sitting around nana's house eating sausage bread, we wouldn't be going to the stores. you are doing your second round of the food at that point. you are not going to best buy. >> reporter: who wants to shop when you can eat. megyn: and play with stretch. the incredible hulk i also loved. >> reporter: i loved him, too. megyn: see ya, trace. thank you for paying attention to my childhood toys. breaks news from mexico. he said he witnessed a horrendous crime. but he never called the police. is this penn state assistant coach keeping his job in the can

today that just eveninged the job of the head coach. the father of murdered border patrol agent brian terry thinks the obama administration knows more than it's letting on. >> holder knew about it and the president knew about it. anybody should be prosecuted. they have other people in mexico, innocent people murder with them ak-47s. has never bee. an online virus has never attacked a corkboard. ♪ give your customers the added feeling of security a printed statement or receipt provides... ...with mail. it's good for your business. ♪ and even better for your customers. ♪ for safe and secure ways to stay connected, visit usps.com/mail

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megyn: we are just getting our first video from a helicopter crash in mexico. it was carrying the secretary of the interior francisco mora. he was the highest ranking official in mexico after the mexican president. the secretary of interior oversees interior affairs and security. so far there is no suggestion of criminal wrongdoing. attorney general eric holder is now apologizing to the family of brian terry. tuesday he did not apologize when given the chance over

"operation fast & furious." watch the exchange from tuesday on capitol hill. >> have you apologized to the family of brian terry? >> i have not apologized but i certainly regret what happened. >> would you like to apologize for this program that went so wrong that took the life of a united states law enforcement agent. >> i refret what happened to brian terry. i can only imagine the pain that his family has to deal with. it's not fair to assume the mistakes made in "operation fast & furious" directly led to the death of agent terry. megyn: before the terry family received word of his about-face and apology necessity reacted to the betrayal and the grief they felt and they had strong words for the obama administration. >> holder knew about it, the president knew about it. i think anybody should be prosecuted for the death and the

people in mexico and innocent people murdered down there with them ak-47s. >> if they would never have let these guns walk, maybe brian wouldn't have been out in that desert. >> i would like to see holder step down. they are liars. they never apologized to us or nothing. >> he could have been a man and at least come to the family, the mother and father of brian terry and given condolences. >> i know they are lying. they are nothing but liars. i have trouble going to the cemetery because he ain't suppose to be there. i'll bet if he lost his son he would think different. megyn: joining me now syndicated radio hosts lars larson and leslie mitchell. he comes out tuesday and says he's not going to do it. then he writes a letter to the

family doing it. according to politico. we asked the department of justice for a copy of the letter and they declined to give it to us. they say he said he's sorry the for the lost of your son. he was a hero. the tactic of after he looking guns to walk as was done in "operation fast & furious" is completely unacceptable. what do you make of it? >> first he sits in front of congress and says he won't apologize, then later apologize. i understand the time line, the apology was revealed to the press before the terry family even received it. megyn: one member of the terry family had received it but hadn't given it to the family yet. >> this is an attorney general who had multiple emails with his name it on that apparently he didn't pay any attention to on an operation consider it's harder to americans to believe a number of agents could set all

this in motion without approval from the higher ups. when they send men owes up the chain of command, the chain of channeled doesn't pay any attention to the fact that we are running guns into the foreign country. guns are put into the hand of bad guys we blame it person who let those guns fall into those hands. in this case attorney general holder has blood on his hand and he should have acknowledged it and apologized that day and not days later. megyn: according to the political report, the terry family wrote to mr. holder on november 1 and demand he get to the bottom of this operation. but they say mr. holder did not receive the letter until after this week's hearing. should he when given a chance by senator cornyn say i do apologize. not that it's his personal fault but to apologize for their loss? >> i honestly -- i buried a son

in 2004, serve know what it's like to belong to a club you don't want membership in. my heart goes out to the terry family, no question. i:believe of should have apologized to the family but not to congress. i say this because this should not be his loss, the situation, a political circus, sensationalized or made for gain on either side of the political spectrum. this certainly -- attorney general holder should have afollow joyed. i agree with the mother, plastery when she said he should have c come to the family and apologized sooner. but i don't believe of should have done it before congress. regarding guns walking, i think. >> you are wrong, leslie. megyn: let her finish her point. >> you are wrong about this. the fact is, this was an operation of the u.s. government sending guns into a foreign

country. this needed to be not just to the terry family. the american public has blood on its hand because its representatives in government set this in motion. this should be something where the attorney general speaks to the whole country and explains if he didn't know -- and i don't buy that -- why he did not know what was going on below him as guns were sent to a foreign country. >> i agree with that, lars. but that don't include an apology. the apology needs to be made to the parent of this man. that is not our child. he doesn't need to apologize to the american people if he not guilty. megyn: why did he wait until now. it's been almost a year since this young man was killed. in connection with fast and furious. and and little less than that since we learned one of the guns was used. one of the guns that was part of fast and furious was used.

>> i have no answer for that. i agree with you. i think anyone should have apologize for this further. i'm saying that for somebody who is on the left and would i say that to somebody on the right. but i have to say, you have to look at the facts. i personally -- my opinion of this guns walking tactic is it's side. before it was used twice during the bush administration. justice department document show that. the briefings were sent to the attorney glen the former presidential administration and in this. so i don't feel it's fair to now push the blame to the president, president obama. twice in the bush administration it was wrong and in this administration it was wrong. >> when an american citizen is killed under the statutes we have, we don't prosecute murderer versus the person who did the killing, we call it state versus. when one of our citizens is killed it's the state that goes

to bat for the person who has been killed. this was an action by the united states government putting guns into the hands of murderers who murdered one of our sit -- it concerns the whole country and not just the terry family as a private matter. thanks for being here. happy veterans day and to all of our viewers as you take time to acknowledge the service of those brave men and women who serve our country. megyn: he told his boss he witnessed an unspeakable crime in progress in the penn state locker room. but some argue the man who saw that in the penn state case, the assistant coach mike mcqueary did not do enough and question what he's doing coaching the current team. we asked our legal panel about it next. >> later today we'll vote on a proposal to form a special

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megyn: "kelly's court" is back in session. on the docket, the penn state child sex aintiews scanltd scandal. -- the sex aintiews scandal. we told you about this man, mike mcqueary. he was an eyewitness but did nothing to stop it. he reported it to coach joe paterno but he did not call police. some are suggesting that failure could be a criminal offense and wonder questioning hasn't been charged and whether he can be

sued. lis weihl and joey jackson. let's start with possible criminal charges against this guy. could he be charged. what would be the potential charge? >> possible child abuse. just because he walked in on it? >> he didn't do anything at the time. yes, under the child protective services statute he did report to his supervisor which is what he was supposed to done the supervisor was supposed to report to the police. but he was witnessing a crime and he did nothing about it. think all the other kids -- this was back in 2002 when saw this. think about all that stream of boys that could have been protected. if i were prosecuting this case i would find something.

i would have a come to jesus moment. you talk to me because i think you know more than what you told the grand jury. or i'll be creative about coming up with a way to prosecute you. megyn: she has brick walls if she goes after him criminally. >> i understand the outrage. there were abuses that were horrific. but you have to look at we did do right. he's 28 years old. he didn't just ignore it. megyn: you make it sounds like he was 14 years old. 28 years old is a grown man. >> but he, work for an organization. he told the head coach an went to him and said look we have a problem. what should we do to address it. he's part of a hierarchy. you don't go rogue. megyn: you are talking about chain of command? are you kidding me? he sees a boy being raped and

more loyal to penn state and the health and safety of little children. >> he went to the head coach and said this is what's happening. he had every reason to believe the head coach and the people in the hierarchy would do the right thing. >> why didn't he at that moment, forget about the next day. what about at that moment, going in, stopping what was 457ing, that rape after child. >> you know there is no such law that requires any of to us take affirmative steps to stop any criminal act and for good reason because then we may be subject of a criminal act. there is morals and ethics involved. he didn't have an obligation to stop it, he had an obligation to report it. that's what he did. megyn: how do you not -- fine, it doesn't look like they can make a criminal case against him. but what about a civil case. you are the family of that

little boy who is now 20 years old. can you file a civil suit against this guy mcqueary? he failed to stop it. witnessed in progress. didn't stop it. golfs with this guys charity with him according to the reports i read. continued to associate with the guy. couldn't you make a case against him? >> you could file a civil claim. i would counsel the families of these victims to wait until the criminal charges are done to use in the civil cases. but of course you can claim negligence, abuse, breach of trust, all of that. and i wouldn't just bring in the coaches, i would go higher up than that. i would bring penn state into it. >> i agree in part and i disagree with the other. i think there are people in the high ay who could potentially be

civilly liable for doing nothing. at the same time remember what he did do. he's cooperating fully with the investigation. >> now he is. this is 2002. all these boys. >> he's a young man involved in an organization. as a result of that he could lose his job and he's in a tight spot. megyn: i know you, and if you witnessed what he witnessed, you would unleash hell on the assailant. and i think most our viewers watching this would. i'll leave it there for right now. we'll pick up on that point right after this break.

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megyn: i want to pick up with the inevitable lawsuit against penn state university. i'm sure them allege there was a dangerous condition on these premises and the university failed to take steps to correct it. can they pawn that off on the fact these two coaches didn't do more? didn't let administrators beyond those two know? >> yes. you are talking about civil litigation and yes, you can. but the letter of the law, the supervisor told the soup vieror but they did nothing beyond that. they knew or should have known the repeated acts of violence that were happening on their facilities, megyn. megyn: to what extent will the university prevail by the sheer unbelievability of it.

that grown men would be participating in a conspiracy to cover up serial child rape taking place on the premises over a decade it's literally unbelievable. >> it is. but the argument will be of course -- remember they won't have receptive ears. any jury who would hear this would be shocked and outraged and ready to shower any amount of money on these victims. it will be tough civilly. megyn: you think they will cut a check? >> once you have a duty to report and people know about it and nothing is done. then you are on notice. there you have to take preventative measures. to the extent they didn't do that i think civil liability is apt to happen here. megyn: do you think the two people charged, the athletic director and the coach who have been accused of failure tell the truth to the grand jury and failure to report. can they go after them for failure report when the statue

of limitations is two years and this happened in 2002? >> that's a huge problem. the criminal prosecutor will have a big issue with that. the perjury they can still go after. but civilly that is an issue though joey makes my point for me. it wasn't just one incident. they went on for many many years some of it was a pattern of behavior. as long as there was some act within the statute you are okay. >> obviously as an individual i'm outraged. of course, it's taking the steps i need to take, but as a lawyer i see it differently. megyn: lis, joey, thank you both. 36 hours after a major league baseball player is kidnapped at

gunpoint, still no worth on from his captors.

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