should be interesting. >> we've got chris wallace on the no and duncan hunter and marquis. any doubts. >> she just wants-- and joe after the show-show, the host of master chef returns next summer. >> the website again. >> heartinthekitchen.com. >> all right, tune into the after the show show. >> brenda: forget the debt mess in europe, all eyes now on the massive one here. the hole we're in, nearly 15 trillion dollars. and there's only 11 days left for that committee on capitol hill to get a deal done. but did something that just happened in the buckeye state just buck any chances of that happening? voters in ohio saying yes to unions, no to desperately needed spending cuts and someone here says don't think lawmakers in washington didn't notice. hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears. let's get right to it. the bulls and bears this week,

gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris along with today shotodd schoenberger. gary you say as goes ohio, so go the cuts. >> absolutely, brenda. if you're on the super committee and you're on the fiscal austerity side, you're quaking in your boots right now. in an ohio backed union proposal, what they really backed was floated pensions, outrageous salaries, outrageous hiring practices, nonexistent firing practices, all the things that we need, the opposite side of which to turn this country around and show some fiscal soundness. instead, ohio went the other way and i tell you what, if i again, you're on the super committee you just lost a big, a lot of trump cards in your hand. >> susan, what does it mean

for the super committee, do you think? >> i think the message from the ohio vote there is solidarity among middle class workers, who, what they're voting for, a lot of middle class workers, in ohio and they're suffering right now and there's a lot of people who really were in sympathy with them. we don't want to see their rights stripped away. this is about directive bargaining and not having to bare the brunt of the cost cuts right now. >> sotoby? >> we have some hard decisions to make and i appreciate if you're the beneficiary of having these types of benefits that you wouldn't want to see them go away. that's not going to get us out of the hole here and that type of thinking, i'm not a politician, just an economics guy. from an economic standpoint these cuts not only need to be made they need to he step up and go to the big cuts and now they're going to wuss out, and

that's a technical term, but gosh, a trillion over 10 years, did i say trillion, 500 billion. oh, really only 300 billion. >> brenda: come on, todd, did you not expect them to wuss out? >> look, ohio is a big swing state right now. when you start looking at the super committee, the democrats know they need to appeal to a certain base out there that wants the entitlements and we heard this from the vote on tuesday. when we're going forward though, they need to think big. they can't use the ohio vote as the way that's going to swing them. the problem is that the democrats are never going to compromise with the republicans right now on this and the republicans desperately, they're willing to -- they're talking about possible tax revenues now, but yet they know they want the cuts and dems are never going to do the cutting. >> brenda: jonas, what do you think it means? >> i think it's a small microcosm of the problem. and basically another vote in ohio and saying, okay, let's have an across the board tax increase in the state to pay for the higher benefits from having the union powers and

that would fail also and that's the basic problem here, everybody seems to want a benefit structure of like sweden, but they don't want to pay for it with the resulting high tax rates that the european countries have to pay for this. that's the bankruptcy and you either have to vote the cuts or raise taxes and the committee is going to say it, they're going to have big tax cut increases and huge cuts and no one is going to want to do both. and like what happens with all the committees. >> the risk that we're going to run right now, brenda, if the democrat-- actually the entire super committee does not come to terms on this and does not think big, we are looking at another possible cut of the debt rating in the u.s. and if that's the case, it makes debt that much more expensive and now we're going down a path that now we hear so much about from the european countries right now and that's the last thing we want. >> but this is-- it's not a microcosm, it's a mac mack mack could he -- it would

set off important cuts if they don't do it, right? >> yes and no. here is the depressing part, brenda, if everyone walks away, what he they call a sequester, i believe, and then the, the cuts amount to over the next ten years, the increases will still increase in the budget, 1.6 trillion dollars. >> right. >> without the sequester, it's 1.7 trillion dollars, so, you're talking a drop in the bucket, but i'll tell you what, brenda, at this point i would take that rather than had a just flat out spending increase in taxes and the other b-s we're going to see. >> brenda: susan? >> one of the problems is that the rating agencies have said if it winds up we can't reach a deal and wind up in gridlock they're going to consider another ratings downgrade and that's not something we can afford. they have to go back to work and find ways to get some meaningful cuts done and there's a huge bipartisan group in the house and senate

and even because the democrats and republicans saying, go big, get to 4 trillion not 1.2 trillion. we want to see a real deal and only this week, after months of negotiations have the republicans even put pa hint of tax increases on the table. so we might be finally starting to see a break in the deadlock here. >> why do we need any-- >> and gary b, the automatic cuts you're talking about don't quick in until 2013. >> exactly. and now, to susan's point, it sundays like a big number, but remember, this is spread over ten years and during that ten years, it's not like the budget is flat. it's still growing, that's the problem. >> right. >> and also, gary b, that's exactly what it is. you're looking at departments that will see their budgets increase, 3 to 10% automatically, no matter what. it doesn't matter what the super committee does. if anything, why don't they squash that idea and go off for some real cuts and that would obviously help us in the long-term, but it's not going to happen. >> brenda: jonas, ohio, how

much do you really think that it meant? >> i think it represents the problem that nobody wants to face. the rating agencies are perfectly happy with a tax increase or a spending cut. they don't care which we choose. we're choosing neither and that's the problem and they're not choosing it either in ohio. >> well then, why don't we get the cut. why don't we let it go and not have the vote and let the cuts come in and see if it doesn't-- >> i'm fairly sure it's not going to end and let's get the cuts now because that's the things they're afraid of. afraid to get t once we start the cut, then i think we can start to get some momentum. right now they're like someone who has never cooked pasta before. afraid to put the pasta in the water and see what happens. >> you know, some the cuts and automatic triggers are draconian. i don't want to see the cuts in defense spending the way they're slashing through. it needs to be a much more thoughtful way they're approaching. >> how can they possibly be draconian when the baseline budget is increasing at this

phenomenal rate with almost no slowdown. you won't even sigh, feel the cuts out there. you know that. when you go to these departments and say, okay, you've got to cut 1% over the next ten years, what is that? they get rid of the coffee mugs like obama's new program? come on. >> you want to tell that our men and women overseas that we're going to-- >> oh, we have the biggest most powerful military compared to everyone else in the entire world. you don't think there's any waste and fraud in the military? >> okay. >> i would say, yeah, right, we haven't lost a dog fight, haven't lost a dog fight in 50 years, okay, i think we're okay. >> brenda: okay, that's got to do it for the trading tips this week. general motors going in reverse? the bailed out auto maker's stock hitting the street almost one year ago, and driving down ever since. someone from cavuto's gang say it's time for us to drive away. that's he at the bottom of the hour, but up next, think the president's health care law

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>> good morning everyone, live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. washington nationals catcher wilson ramos is alive and safe and venezuelan police commandos conducting a daring rescue attempt to get him echanging gunfire with alleged kidnappers before taking them into custody. ramos saying he's grateful to be alive, but feels damaged psychological. the first known kidnapping of mlb player in venezuela has dozens of players on the roster in the u.s. and syria suspended from the arab league and the vote taking place a short time ago. and the vote taking effect on weapons. and warning syria it could face sanctions if it doesn't end bloody crackdown against

anti-government protesters. the u.n. estimates 3500 people killed in the uprising and the violence has only gotten worse in recent weeks. i'll send you back to bulls and bears, i'm jamie colby, keep it on the fox news channel. >> the president's health care law turning out to be not so healthy for the job markets. and medical device maker stryker, slashing 1,000 jobs to cut costs. why? it blames the new mandated season medical device makers from the president's law. and toby, you say this is just the beginning? >> oh, absolutely. brenda. i think we have he a talked since the beginning, it's simple mathematics, an example for our country. our premium for 2012 a going to be up about 24% because when you took the stuff that we didn't cover and you add it in, yeah, somebody's got to pay for it. so guess what? that's probably going to cost somebody a job and take my company and multiply by millions and what you get is

job destruction, purely under the idea that somehow we can just raise the premiums and raise costs and mandates and it will not have an economic effect and that's naive and insane. >> brenda: jonas, you say this is just one company and may be using this as an excuse? >> that's exactly. look, there's a lot in the health care bill and the job market. the whole notion of companies providing health care in general for the job market, but corporations love to blame their troubles on something big going on. it's because of that. if you think about this, a medical device company, there's going to be more demand for the products because more people have insurance and a demand that creates a tax, is it a tax on hip replacement stuff across the board and you're not going to lose market share to the other medical device company because they've got the same tax and paid for by insurance, i don't believe it, i'm not buying this excuse. >> brenda: okay. todd, but there are things in the bill that could force other companies to cut costs. >> that's right.

look, you're looking at a mandate right now. you're-- in the law, you're telling employers a number of things, one, obviously, they have to get preventive care issues, that's going to add cost to it. as to unit labor costs, premiums that toby was talking about and the flip side, if toby or any other company doesn't wish to hire people pour cut employees, they'll end up raising and adding costs to consumers in inflation and added cost that makes it more expensive to live out there. look, the issue with this health care bill, there's no two ways about it, it's poison to the housing market. or to the employers, the employment market. but also to the general economy as a whole and the irony of it, it's not making anybody else healthier. >> right. >> brenda: and susan, you think that it's actually good for the job market? >> well, look, there were 50 million people who were unemployed-- uninsured. when you have that high of a-- >> that's a bogus number. >> in the system who are not being covered and who are using emergency services and

that makes the entire system much more expensive and you know, the estimates for that, everybody's premiums were $1,000 higher just based on the cost of uninsured people in the system. if we can get rid of that cost for the entire cost of the system down then you start to see premium reductions and it's not going to happen overnight, but it's going to eventually happen and this is sort of a longer arc on this bill. >> susan, that was killed a year ago, when they actually went and counted the people who were eligible for coverage, but who weren't covered and the actual uncovered turned out to be, get this, about 12 million people and everybody i know in the democratic party has given up on that 50 million dollars. >> hold on, af he got to get over to gary b. what do you think? >> well, first of all, i think that todd was right. obama care is killing the housing market. (laughter) >> and it's probably unintended side effect, but based on how housing prices are, i think's he on to something. but, you know what? the cbo has already come out and already come out and said, i'm sorry, susan, this is

going to cost our economy 800,000 jobs-- 800,000 jobs. now, this is the same group, by the way, that said employer covered health insurance would go up. since obama care has been signed in 4 1/2 million people have lost that insurance, so, i'm in doubt of the cbo's 800,000 number. i think it will be a lot more. >> brenda: susan. >> the idea here we're trying to con strain costs. like i said it's not going to kick in overnight and probably not seeing it this year or next year. it's a broader argument of mou do we get a handle on this system overall when he we see costs escalating that most businesses really can't afford and a number of provisions in here, tax credits for small businesses, tax credits for individuals, and for families, to try to help them reduce the costs and be able to manage the premiums. >> brenda: quickly. >> and this is all just really price controls and you should know, having been in treasury and i'm sure a history in economics, do price controls really ever work?

>> you know, president nixon tried it, too. >> and did it work? >> oh, great (laughter) >> time-- >> and tax on medical device, and whether it's-- consumers and health care is not going to suffer, other issues may, but they are, on a hiring binge because of this, and more customers. >> brenda: okay, sorry, we've got to go. thanks, guys. and bashing banks, between breaking their windows? but now, making a big deposit in the very institutions they're railing against? why someone here is saying, uh-oh, occupy wall street, just proved capitalism works. financial advice is everywhere. real, objective investing help? that's a little harder to find. but here's what i know -- td ameritrade doesn't manage mutual funds... or underwrite stocks and bonds.

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pay up to eat up, 13% more

>> from vandalizing the bank to being a new customer of those same banks. occupy wall street opening their very own account, but not at a credit union. get this. at a wells fargo. todd, you say they just proved capitalism works. >> that's right, brenda. you know, what a bunch of hipocrits. i mean, here this crew is going not to a credit union or to a community bank, but a firm, a for-profit entity. same group that keeps handling the protests against and yet, they know it's safe and number two, access to t and those are two critical parts that occupy people really need right now. >> now, susan, how do you argue-- >> i don't get this, what this proves is what we know about the big banks, they're

convenient and they've said, occupy wall street says they've put the money here and filed papers and opening up the account at a credit union and what i'd love to see if they sat down with wells fargo and figure out a way to keep the money in the bank that would be a true-- >> and you think they're ever going to move it? >> well, i think they're going to run out of it quick and guarantee it. does capitalism work? they had a product, the angst product and people are selling it every day and people are paying the money for it, i say maza mazaaltof if you boys. >> and why are they going to-- >> and live in the warm places and an i'll say the banks are important purpose in the america and they got a bailout and many would have failed if they didn't. when you've got money you've got to put it somewhere, it's safe, backed by the government and if the banks fail, you've

got to rethink the reason for the hate for the banks and the bailouts they got. >> and gary b, i know you hated the fact that banks were too big to fail. >> exactly. and the irony is that it's just didn't put it in the bank, they put it in a bank that accepted tarp money and their whole thing is against the 1%. wells fargo is a prime example of being on, now, the insider that got the money, but you know, i'm going to go back-- >> they paid it back, though. >> yeah, granted, but it's not the -- the government is not in the stock market business of trying to make money off their investments, but the bigger point is, you know, susan said, well, they put it there because they're convenient. yes, they're convenient because they put together a business model that allowed them to make money and expand. and that's what the occupy wall street people should be keen on. they should want these companies to make a lot of money, oodles of money so they can grow big and hire people like that are camped out at

the parks. >> exactly, exactly, gary b. >> they charge higher costs and don't treat their customers well. >> and that's poorly-- >> to keep their businesses-- >> listen, occupy people are you all on their computers and ipads and best part going to wells fargo, they can monitor the $20,000 online. can't do that at a credit union or community banks, they don't have the money and they're putting back in due to technologies na wells fargo can. that's critical. >> the bigger time we saw capitalism working, last month, 650,000 people moved 4.5 billion dollars in deposits out of major banks into credit unions. >> and voted with your-- >> that's how it should be. how the free market works. >> that's capitalism working. >> and they should go out of business. >> that wasn't the occupy guys. >> well, they were really supporting that movement. >> the occupy guys got the debit cards to get their at

tayes at starbucks that time. >> all right. thanks, guys and thanks to susan for joining us. >> euro recession fears mounting and the names that shrug it off. gobbling up that turkey is going to cost you, the stock to help you wing in. wing it. that is better than today. since 1894, ameriprise financial has been working hard for their clients' futures. never taking a bailout. helping generations achieve dreams. buy homes. put their kids through college. retire how they want to. ameriprise. the strength of america's largest financial planning company. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you, one-to-one. together, for your future. ♪

>> predictions, todd is up. >> thanksgiving dinks are going up 13% this year and we're going to be eating mcribs, buy mcdonald's. >> brenda: jonas. >> a terrible idea. >> brenda: okay. tobin your prediction? >> the euro is slowing down, but america's speeding up here, so let's do the iwm, russell 2000, smaller stocks move quickly. >> brenda: gary b, bull or bear? >> i'm bearish only on the percentage, i think he has the right idea. >> brenda: what do you like, gary b. >> starbucks, getting in juice business and seeing juice shopsni