know. >> to put it simply. >> brenda: here we go, neil cavuto is next. >> well, a bipartisan break down? and fox on top of the red and blue, now playing a dangerous game with your green. republicans and democrats fighting over how to pay for a payroll tax cut. but where was this religion on pay as you go, when democrats were pushing stimulus, regardless of the cost and republicans pushing that tax rate. don't look now, i think we're all about to get rolled or should i say payrolled. to ben stein in the flesh, this is cool. dagen mcdowell, and along with charlie gasperino and i want to thank charles for filling in for me last week, did such a good job, i decided to take him off the set. charles payne, kiss the payroll tax cuts goodbye. >> no, listen, neil, the guys in washington, they've got

religion, all right. but we're going to get the payroll tax extension, i'm 99% sure of that and 100% sure it's going to involve fuzzy math added to the accounting debt that we have and it's not going to be paid for, but i think both sides feel there's too much to lose, forget religion, it's all about votes. >> neil: what do you think, ben stein. >> that's the religion, it is about votes. to get reelected. he's right. the can will get kicked farther down the road and do some kind of trick to say, oh, it's bad. of course it won't be paid for and i mean, it's an endless cycle of buying votes, and endenturing future generations. >> it's the people who cost the votes who are to blame, neil. again, people who love that extra money in their paycheck, that's supposed to go to fund your social security benefits, and then people at the same time complain about fixing entitlements and don't want that extra money to go away. >> a sudden resolve of yours to pay for tax cuts come from? >> can we please finally right

ourselves? i worry that the bomb is going to blow up in our face sooner rather than later and we're going to wait until it happens. >> i'd like to get more money in the meantime. >> you are. >> well, i always thought this deficit commission was farce to begin with and cut-- >> i said i liked what the debt commission, i didn't put credence they could get it done and then criticized that everyone dropped it. >> you're never going to get meaningful cuts in the budget with this government. >> i think so, the reason for that deficit commission, for cutting stuff uis ridiculous. it's not going to happen. it never was. >> neil: and where are we going here? where are we going with this? i mean, i agree with charles payne at the outset saying that this will go through one way or the other, they're going to use something approaching fuzzy math to get it through and then what?

>> no, it's true. i think there will be maybe a little bit of fuzzy math. the challenge right now, everyone is looking at europe and seeing the ghost of christmas future, right? they're afraid they're seeing massive deficits of governments and realizing it's actually a problem so we need to continue to have a conversation about the deficit, but a priority in this short-term has still got to be economic stimulus because you cannot cut your way to economic growth. it doesn't work. >> the thing is highly irritating about this payroll tax cut extension, because, again, the word temporary has completely disappeared, from the language of people down in washington. and the bush tax cuts were supposed to sunset. this was supposed to be a year, the extended unemployment and we've got to take those another. and this doesn't mean anything to anybody anymore. >> is it that big of a deal. aren't we kind of talking chump change, either way it's not a lot. >> it's chump change except we're on an express train headed to national default and we're going a couple of miles faster over the cliff. >> don't you have to have that

debate outside the context of this payroll tax? i mean-- >> i think we have to have it over everything. and you'll never get it done. >> it's called our b-block. >> and you'll never get it done, ben. >> we've got to get it done someplace or we'll default. >> no, we won't default. >> you're dismissing-- we'll do it with what they're going to-- >> are you dismissing, yes or no. >> dismissing who? >> the payroll tax fund. >> and i think it's a joke. >> neil: and for this show is a joke? >> you're putting words in my mouth (laughter) >> since you're the boss i'm pleading my fifth amendment right there as john corzine is going to do. >> neil: charles payne, i mean, dagen raised a very good point here about the separate things that are hard to make untemporary. so this things happens, and i'm wondering where we go from here? because, if as charlie gasperino pointed out. little resolve to cut spending and we're going to get into that a little bit more in the show.

we're in some deep doo-doo here. >> we are, dagen made the fantastic point and we're going to see the continuing resolution, what about the debt ceiling, the first time that was raised was a few decades ago. >> 1970. >> listen, the mid term election was supposed to be a turning points. a mandate given to make the tough choices if it's not made now, i suppose the 2012 election will be there ultimately. if there is he' no political will to do the chump change as charlie calls it we're in trouble. >> and ben stein is shaking his head. >> there's no political will to do anything meaningful about defense, iran or education, anything, there's no political will period. >> when you here and feel the americans are upset and hand on spending and concerned about the spending, not my spending, where do we go from here? >> we go down into either default as i said or as mr. gasperino said and spend more money and have a defacto

default or-- >> or maybe possibly we have a real debate about this in the 2012 election and you pick your course. do you want the obama course, which is taxes on the rich, bigger government, you know, kick, maybe, maybe paying for it, but paying for it through squeezing businesses out of more taxes or do you want the more, the republican vision, you're not going to come to a conclusion with this type of divided government. this is different than the clinton, gingrich era of divided government and bill clinton moved to the right and gingrich moved to the center, there was, i mean, listen, tip o'neill and reagan compromised. gingrich, clinton compromised, is barack obama really going to compromise? >> and that's not about-- >> no, he won't. >> they're not even asking the question. >> and they're willing to compromise here on the debt ceiling debate. they were willing to go a lot further than this president who backed out of the deal at the last minutes. >> do you want to finish that point. >> saying that the tea party was not willing to compromise. they were-- >> eric can tore and john

boehner are not the tea party. >> they were held hostage by the tea party. >> they were not held hostage boehner was ready to do a deal. >> the parameters at the last minute-- >> nobody is asking the question do we need this this economy a payroll tax cut extension? is anybody really having that serious issue thinking about it, because the economy is improving, right. >> and i do find it interesting when push comes to shove even on the part of this administration, the best way to do for the economy is apparently, to cut a tax and this payroll tax, and the wisdom of that, but it does seem interesting that those who are the biggest proponents of spending realize that when you're up against the wall, you just cut taxes. >> well, but the more interesting part that the republicans who have been arguing against it the past several weeks and what do they think about that one? >> isn't it be absurd you want to cut the tax by raising taxes. >> neil: raising the taxes on-- >> think about how absurd the obama presidency has been?

>> that's not very fair and balanced. >> i don't care. i'm going to layout the case. spend 800 billion and spend the next year talking down the economy, raise health care and taxes and-- think how absurd it is. i think it's b-s. i don't think it means a lot. he wants to raise taxes to stimulate the economy. >> and the we're going to balance the budget, how so? because we're going to-- like the old steve martin joke. >> do you think that. >> make a million dollars and never pay any taxes. >> do you think that-- >> first get a million dollars, and-- say-- hold it, hold it. we had a bipartisan deficit commission and paul ryan, was that fantasy land? >> and steve martin, excuse me! we're going to take a quick break here and when we come back, let me see if i've got it straight. congress and the white house, now pushing over 1 trillion dollars in spending.

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>> a fox news alert. live from america's news headquarters. i'm patti ann browne. we're closely monitoring an event in atlanta, georgia where presidential candidate herman cain will address the future of his white house bid. his campaign has taken a big hit in recent weeks amid allegations of sexual harassment and a woman's claims of a 13-year affair. cain, who has seriously denied all of the allegations says he need today meet with his wife before making a final decision. we're monitoring this closely and will bring you any developments as they happen. new reports from afghanistan that a roadside bomb has killed three n.a.t.o. troops in the eastern part of the country. we're told the coalition recently shifted its focus there to deal with militants fighting afghan and coalition troops along the border with pakistan. so far 419 n.a.t.o. service mms have been killed in afghanistan, including at these 389 americans.

i'm patti ann browne, now back to cavuto on business. >> neil: deep in debt and now deeper in don't. and after a failure to cut the nation's debt over the next ten years the senate is now pushing a 1 trillion dollars spending bill to fund the government through the next year and automatic cuts to medicare in the debt deal. democrats are saying no deal. they want to get rid of them and the president, well, he's pushing more green to go green, teaming up with former president bill clinton on a four billion dollars energy efficiency plan and add it up. 1.1 trillion bucks. dagen? you know, and parties do this, but can't help themselves. >> they cannot help themselves and the cuts will never come. you're a democrat, they'll never come to medicare. if you're a republican, they are he' never going to come to defense and the problem for us, as a nation, is we can still borrow money hand over fist, at rock bottom rates. until somebody decides not to extend our credit limit.

until somebody decides to extract a lot more in interest from us as a nation, nothing will change. not even an election, not even a tea party movement will change it and we've seen that over the last year, we're lending it to ourselves, and the federal reserve is creating it, giving it to the banks and the banks relend to the federal government. it's a virtual circle could go on for a very long time. >> neil: what's a long time. >> i don't know, it could go on for decades and end in terrible inflation. we're all happy. >> to put the blind fold on and stick your fingers in your ears and start humming blood sweat and tears. >> oh, wow, oh, wow. oh, wow, far out. >> i don't know. >> far out. >> i'm a little more optimistic, i think the tea party movement has moved both parties somewhat to the right. listen, divided government is never going to handle this, we're going to deal with this in the election and i think it's legitimate thing to talk

about. and you know, there's benefits from being the tallest midget in the room and you know, the u.s. unfortunately is going to have a lot more borrowing, and ability to borrow for a long time because the rest of the world-- >> and the other midgets don't like you. and then-- >> and where is china going to put the money, mongolia? where are they going to put the money? >> they can put it in themselves. and they're a very big economy now and put it in themselves. >> i don't trust their accounting system and neither do they. >> nobody does. >> neil: charles payne, let me get a sense of the u.s. books, the way they stand now. there's obviously, very little op tight to address spending this year and already a move afoot on the part of john mccain with the defense cuts and the automatic sequestration cuts that take place in 2013 to remove the defense component. and introduced with the democrats are trying do do with medicare.

and then we could have some serious problems? >> yeah, first of all, you think about this summer when everyone started talking double dip recession and the stock market crashed. a lot of that came, especially after it was obvious that washington was the worst it's ever been. the if they renege on the deal, by the way i don't want to see defense spending cuts, but if make a deal and want to dismantle it months later, your credibility is razor thin. charlie says we're the tallest midget in the room and sooner or later the other midgets are-- i remember a 9th grade a guy used to pick on me all the time. summer vacation, he was an inch taller than me, we came back and i was an inch taller than him. and i really-- he says he kicked his ass. >> and we do handle some of the growth. >> and well, we use that. >> i'm just saying that, we-- >> and is that the key? and the whole thing, and--

>> what are you smoking that you think we're going to grow our way out of this? >> that's not what i'm saying, but we use today handle this through, by having-- >> and you guys sit around all day and talk about cuts, cuts, cuts, cuts. we really actually-- >> they're in the cuts and-- >> and this is one time that gasperino makes sense, but we're talking about curbing the growth, even though we get the 1.3 trillion dollars in cuts the backup plan has and i think charles is right, no garan teuarantee we'll have it. we'll have more debt than we have now. and the cuts growing. >> that's right, but when you think about these triggers and terrible to think that congress is going to go back on their word so soon after they had this deal done, but the idea of the triggers, they were designed to be bad, so that they would compel the super committee to actually get a deal so it's no surprise that everybody hates them and wants to revoke them. they were designed to be bad. >> we have a lot of time to

revoke, a year plus to revoke them. >> you guys are too green eye shades to me. >> nothing's happening. >> and jack kemp, there's a way out of it. read about how --. >> the way out of it. >> tax reform and grow this economy and grow the economy. >> how do you grow the economy? >> we talk about it all day. >> stimulus. >> well, not the type that you guys like or maybe not you, but maybe the president likes, spending money, which is an inefficient way of doing it, you need tax reform, you need it and need it tomorrow and by the way-- >> there is no clear data that lowering tax rates are going to make the economy really-- >> and we ever going. >> there's no clear data about it. >> and how about 1980. >> cut taxes in 81, raise them every year for the next-- >> there are margins. >> no, no, no, and dramatically lower than when he started owl of this and he raised them and-- >> so that's your-- >> than they were in 81. >> i keep bringing it up.

we got rid of some the golden tax exemptions and-- >> they were great. >> you used to be able to write off your credit card interest. wouldn't you love that. >> every morning in the cavuto household with that. >> and just as unemployment is heading down, lots of states of sending the minimum wage way up, and is that bad news for jobs? forbes looks at that at the top of the hour. news of yet another bailout sending stocks out of the park. another day of capitalism celebrating socialism? that has some in no mood. or creates another laptop bag, or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $13.2 billion

to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more whelp make opportunitpossible. >> coming up, stocks, hopes another bailout could be going forward. the west way for investors to make money is to have

>> dow, wow, almost 500 points of wow are. biggest one day rally more than two and a half years. one of the best market weeks we've seen in two years, news of yet another potential bailout of europe. charles payne, you argue we should be careful what we celebrate. >> well, absolutely. i think ben made the point how indefinite-- wall street is very selfish, it's like going out to a party, seven o'clock at night and you know you're going to get flat blasted. you know you're going to get drunk as you can and don't care. >> maybe you do. >> maybe back in the day when you use today party, but here is the thing, you know that 4 a.m. is coming and 5 a.m. is coming and wall street doesn't care right now it's seven o'clock and take this as far as they can go. even though ultimately it's going to give us one heck of a hangover. >> neil: the bright spot there's always a denny's open. charlie what do you think. >> they didn't quite bailout

the euro or italy and spain, it was marginal step on the road to bailout. >> you do admit they got ahead of themselves, that they-- >> i broke the tarp story. and i'm telling you, wall street likes bailouts. >> people hate-- >> by the way the ultimate bailout-- >> you're right. wall street-- >> bank failure is a terrible thing. >> they're going to print money. by the way they're going to print money. >> everybody assumes a bailout is a bad thing. and lehman brothers, the recession wouldn't have been anywhere-- >> come on. we need a bailout of lehman and greece. >> be careful what you wish for, ben. >> what happened this past week is a bandaid on a hairy problem and i want to be the one to just rip it off! >> do you rell think it's good letting these countries implode and default? do you really think that's a good thing? >> i think-- >> yeah. >> it's a worse thing when you try to bail them out and back stop them. >> no, no.

>> well, default of greece hurts every bank in this-- >> you don't let defatal. >> susan, i just think that what, it is that proverbial slippery slope. if the rallies are based on back stops and institutions that might be fragile of their own accord that's setting pa dangerous precedent to what we had in 2008, and-- >> look i worked on tarp at the treasury department. nobody likes a bailout and i can tell you from my personal experience and people who do the bailouts don't like doing bailouts. when you get to the point you're making that decision it's already too late. you've got to act and charlie is right, you can't let greece go down. it's going to affect every bank in the country and every-- >> you're propping them up and dragging out the agony, you know know that. >> no, we were able to stabilize our banks, and a portion of the bailout-- >> now what you set the stage for. >> you set the stage for gm.

set the stage for chrysler, please. >> if you structure it the right way you can make your money back, the problem in europe. >> neil: well your he' annoying me and made your final visit here. i wish we had more time and unfortunately we do not. i want to thank you and thank charlie, i want to thank dagen. up next, we've got this. what would one ben stein do the title of 437th book and now, ben is telling you what he's doing with his own money and i'm telling you, that is enough money to bail out all of europe. >> no, it is not. (laughter) . úñ??w

>> ben? >> ewc canadian fund and losts minerals and staple and great. >> what do you think of that? >> 1995 they made tough decisions we will not make. and next year 15 percent. i love canada. >> you agree? >> absolutely. >> fox news alert just in. >> charles and ben agree.