products. see you tomorrow. >> brenda: no jokes about this april fool's day because come tomorrow, the u.s. will have the highest corporate tax rates on the planet. and after japan lowers its rates. and someone here says that's no laughing matter for american workers. hi, everyone, i'm brenda buttner, this is bulls and bears, and let's get right to it. the bulls and bears this week, gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris along with john and david mercer, welcome to everybody. gary b, the highest combined tax rate, will that lead to more unemployment. >> we'll soon be number one in unemployment if it continues. look, if it says that higher corporate tax rates don't affect unemployment they've never worked in business at all. here is what happens, we've already seen this, corporate tax rates remain high. what are companies doing in

this day of mobility, they're outsourcing, they're relocating and expanding faster in foreign countries than they would over here. they're hiring less people because a higher corporate tax rate goes right to retained earnings. they have less money to hire people. if you don't believe it, just look what's happening with the the states, brenda. we've seen states that have lower tax rates and attracting business and talked about this last week, as a matter of fact. and to indiana, i believe, that has lower tax rates and attracting businesses from other states with higher corporate tax rates and in fact, the issue has been studied a few years ago, the bipartisan joint committee on taxation, says the number one way to see increased growth in the economy, lower the corporate tax rate. we're not doing that. we need to. >> well, jonas, you say though, if you add in, all the deductions and all of that, we're actually pretty fair when it comes, we're right about average, when it comes. >> we're more like-- yeah, because our companies, they're--

we don't have much. for example, a value added tax across most of europe, so their governments take tax along the way by adding the tax at different level of sales taxes by the way and we lob it on to the corporation. and i don't think our system is bad. the problem is other countries are lowering it and our companies stay the say until the 80's and japan was the latest to go down and we almost have to go along and you have no choice and the companies will be flying around and earning somewhere else and the google tech companies learning through ireland and paying the 2% tax rate. we doesn't have a lot of choice, but having taxes higher somewhere else in the pipeline isn't great for jobs either necessarily. and gary's points are true except he we can't lower the rate to zero because it's good for job and raise the income tax higher as high as other countries, that's bad for jobs. he said ireland, toby. >> yes, he did. let's take real life. in 84, republicthey took the coe

rate from 35% to 15%. at the same time northern ireland did not and for 24 years, they had an expansion in ireland twice the rate of europe. three times the rate of northern ireland. we've seen it in real life. if anybody's going to argue against real life. em pir cal evidence shows and if we lower to 15% in the state, the growth we get would more than make up for whatever this quote, unquote, cut was because we would get higher raises, higher revenues and higher income to the employees, because they would be paid more. >> i don't know, david. if you look at the country that has lowered its tax rates the most over the last ten years, it's greece. and i don't think we want to-- >> and that's greece. >> and i mean, come on. >> not addressing the revenue side, that's for sure. and it can maintain their, their citizenry and their social welfare. but, that said, i don't think much changes with the nominal

rate going down, we are all on consensus that, whether it's republicans or democrats and it's going to come down 25, 28. that's a target. but i think what we have to address with the loopholes, that are incentivizing industries, for instance, the gas and oil companies, that don't need it with all time profits when we should be spurring on a manufacturing, where we've seen job growth at 435,000 over the last couple of years. >> okay. john, take that one on. i feel like, i hear where jonas is coming from and he's talking about an effective rate with loopholes and stuff that's lower, and talking about real life. and talking about real life, i'm a small business owner and when you look at the loose money policy that we've had in the u.s. over the last couple of years, you look at the deficits, the states are facing, small businesses are not only faced with a higher effective rate it's not even 39% if you look at the fact of municipal taxes, toll hikes, fuel cost hikes, energy tax hikes going down to small

business, i think our effective rate is closer to 50 and there's no doubt about it from my perspective, without some certainty that these corporate tax rates are going lower, i think, look out, to the unemployed, because, there's some big problems ahead for them. >> and gary b, that is true for the smaller business, but for larger businesses, there really are deductions. >> well. >> available. >> well, there are deductions, but to david's point, he talks about loopholes as if, you know, some-- the evil corporations come in there and create these loopholes, let's look at the loopholes, the government has created. what about the fact that general motors pays no income tax, and what about the loopholes, the farm, agricultural industry gets. what about the loopholes that everyone other than the oil companies don't get. like all the green, the green energy companies. so, there's a lot of loopholes out there. i think everyone's all for creating a play, level playing field and let's make it level all throughout though. >> well, i mean, also, gary, i mean, if the--

the quote unquote loophole, this gets me the oil and gas companies are taking the same depletions and appreciation expense of every other company. not we have investments and completion on resources and we're not in the oil business, we have other industries and don't throw this out that somehow the oil industry got special treatment. that's not true. everybody gets the same treatment. >> jonas, is the issue it's so complicated or the issue is that it's too hot? >> i think the issue is becoming that it's getting easier and easier to avoid it to the point where it's hurting the government's reven revenue. it's not that it is so hot when you compare to other countries. and most employees today. pay much lower income tax than in europe, germany, japan and especially like other oil companies and talking about norway and stuff. a 50% income tax. my point is we can pay workers less because they don't pay as much to tax, if we lower the

tax rate to zero hypothetically and raise sales tax and income tax rates to other levels, the employer will have to pay for because you work for an after tax wage. it's not wonderful to have to-- i mean, look, in theory, yeah, lower the rate and they'll hire more people, but in fact it's not always that way and we have to have the revenue somewhere and you brought up the point that the countries that lowered their taxes too much are having problems raising money to pay for-- >> and basically broke. >> and we have an unemployment problem, we don't, we don't have a tax problem here, if you go back through history and look at some of the great presidents that were corporate tax cutters like kennedy, like reagan, like even bill clinton, enjoyed vast movement. history proves that wrong and what we need now is certainty more than anything so that employers will start employing. >> and also, look at-- >> is it a kofrpt-- tax on success? and let's hypothetical had i said you had it at zero and raised the tax somewhere else. a start-up company which

doesn't pay actually a lot of corporate tax, they're he not profitable the yet is going to have higher income tax or any income tax. and you'd rather, from the start, maybe this is why america has the best start-up infrastructure and entrepreneurship. there's no penalty on starting up. it's how successful business already have products and once they already make the earnings and the point smaybe we have a better system, than a lot of the countries that don't have the start-up that we did, because there's more start-up favorable. >> and let me give the last words to gary b. >> let's go back to the high level, brenda, we're not competitive with any modern organized country in the world, on tax rates and we need to lower it, just to be competitive and we shouldn't be number one or number two. we should be be somewhere in the middle of the pack if we went to add the business here. >> and start, apple, facebook, google and started here. if it's such a bad tax rate. >> jonas, i'm sorry, we have to go. do you wear a tie at spring break? you must be the only one in

miami who is, okay, all right, guys, thanks. while the u.s. takes the number one spot in corporate taxes, exxon-mobile loses its number one spot as the top oil producer to a chinese company. and now, someone on the cavuto gang says all the oil bashing from the white house is back firing. and neil's gang is on it at the bottom of the hour, first, what government regulators are doing right now that could have gas prices speeding to $6 a gallon by the end of the summer. . >> if you believe the mayan calendar, on december 21st, polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurl us into space and would render the retirement planning unnecessary. let's say the sunrises on december 22nd and you still need to retire, throw in up to $0 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans?

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almost 40 years we haven't been able to up our capacity to refine oil here and now talking about we're going to change the trading regulations, so banks can't go in and trade stocks. we don't have an issue here with banks, we don't have an issue with government being out of the private sector, what we have an issue with, the government being too involved in overspending money and hurting the private sector. obama keeps talking over and over again about upping our domestic production and it's all been done on private lands and if people are scared right now, seeing $4 gas, wait until the end of the summer and i think it will be six. >> whoa. okay, david, do you think it's going that high and red tape that's taking it there? >> absolutely not. i think that's mere speculation and that we all know that the factors contributing to this all is supply and demand and we know china and india are exceeding and increasing demand. and adding to it. and political instability in the middle east. and it has nothing to do with

the regulations as we just pointed out earlier. >> well, how-- >> okay, just i've got to get everybody in here. toby, what do you think? >> you can't really say that, i was just down at one of our favorite places and some people in chicago who were complaining about gas prices and i pointed out to them that in chicago, they've come up with their special blend of gasoline that only one refinery can make, 25 cents more per gallon that was regulations my friend. >> it's a special research company. >> it is. >> and jonas, jonas, your take on this. >> and we'll see, there are regulations out there that play a role in higher gas prices, a lot of the fuel blend regulations and just made ethanol and some lower the price and higher fuel he efficiency standards. the new one, new regulations, they've all been around for a long time and playing a role, and the thing where the banks

don't. they want to trade, eventually, oil futures however they want because they can't. because of the new voelker rule and that will make the prices at the pump. that's ridiculous. i don't know of any oil companies that are saying it's going to do that. i don't know what mechanism that would even lead to that actually. >> well, takes liquidity out of the market. when you take liquidity out of the market. higher spreads and higher costs. >> and takes speculation. >> the banks make money, right. >> brenda: okay. let me ask gary b. there are also other regulations you look at the eta and coal, a lot of other things going on that could take gas higher, right, gary? >> exactly. would like to say, well, you know, it could be regulations and it's probably not regulations and this is some iffy unstudied subject. in fact, the department of energy released a report in march, 2011 that said because of excess regulations, 66 refineries had to shut down, in the past 20 years, that's

not a partisan group. that's the department of energy for crying out loud. the obama administration has a regulation that you, as they find-- fine refineries, 6.8 million dollars because they didn't use a special additive. guess what? the additive was only able in laboratories. if you think that regulations don't harm refineries, you're out of your mind. >> david, you've got 25 seconds. >> look, we're exporting more oil than ever before. >> energy products. >> what? well, i'm just saying that that also contributes to the supply and demand and meeting it and putting it on the market. we're not-- we're not at any loss in terms of regulations, increasing the price of gas at this point. and it will see gas prices come down in the fall as they traditionally do and owing to the stability overseas that we

will have them steady out. >> that's the lad word, thanks. >> and the revolts are in. >> and forever. >> and i can't say. >> well, clearly neil cavuto and fox business network's primary coverage. see what you're missing tuesday night as the candidates square off in wisconsin, maryland and d.c., it kicks off before 8 p.m. eastern and the only place giving you immediate market reaction here, there and everywhere, because your money is primary. >> well, the government is di still denying it and the retailers are seeing it. and wal-mart is fighting back to make sure the sticker shock doesn't get worse, will it get worse? . hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira.

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>> coming up, the government saying we don't have inflation problems. why is it wal-mart lowering prices because of inflation? and the drunken police cam

0 >> goerth >> forget what d.c. is saying. the retailer who sells the most stuff in the u.s. and wal-mart says it's here and now it's trying to help by slashing food prices by 1 billion dollars this year, toby, who do you trust, wal-mart or washington. >> well, wal-mart, denial is not a river in egypt and the united states government has come up with a way of trying to measure inflation and it's just not right. wal-mart gets the real reaction every day from millions of customers, they're doing the right thing here. i wish they would take this money and reduce their gas prices because we'd get more pop out of it, but there's no question they see the front line consumer and front line wal-mart consumer is hurting

because the sales is down. >> brenda: this is good business because they're hoping to bring in more customers, obviously, more volume. >> and that's exactly the point. instead of gouging them and making it on. >> gouging. >> and want to go keep more customers in the store and it's just good marketing and business sense and market position, but it's not a sign that inflation is upon us, because i can guarantee wal-mart would definitely factor that into the pricing and would increase prices along with inflation. and instead, they're doing the opposite because it makes good business sense. >> oh, now. >> brenda: jonas, wal-mart has helped in the battle against inflation? >> more than that, i would say companies like wal-mart, and some extent. have done such a good job and so efficient since the last bout of inflation, '70s, controlling their own energy use costs gone way down over the years and they can pass on the prices to the consumer as much, which would cause the inflation to go up which hasn't happened to the consumer because they've figured out way.

you've seen the price of gas basically double and yet, has ups shipping doubled. no. airline doubled. >> no, wal-mart. >> and food costs going up. cereal makers haven't doubled their prices and done an amazing job of being efficient in absorbing the price pressure. >> john, of course, not everybody can cut margins like this, small businesses. >> no way, let's ring the bell. despite what the bureau of labor and statistics is telling us and what ben bernanke and his cronies are telling us, wal-mart is telling us now, there's inflation out this. we have an inflation problem. the good thing about wal-mart is to jonas' point. they produce goods this china or mexico and ship a bunch of jobs overseas and the jobs that they have here in the u.s., they won't take union workers and they've been accused of all kinds of unfair labor practices, so, the fox is in the hen house, and they can take a little hit. and subsidize grocery prices, because that's going to bring

more people into the stores and buy more retail goods, which they get cheaper, and had a little fall off on the retail side. >> gary b, you say it's how capitalism works, right? >> exactly. at one point at wal-mart, i love how they're gouging the customers, what, 3% profit margin? i mean, and i wouldn't say that's exactly gouging, but you're right, brenda, this is how the free market works and wonderful thing. >> it's not just victory for wal-mart, it's a victory for capitalism and i just looked it up. in the early 80's, we had just come off two straight years of innation, well over 10%, and you know, when costco was started? 1983. that's what happens with the free market and the cash amountism. and opportunities unveil themselves, we have a lot of opportunities and wal-mart's taking advantage of it, good for them. >> we've got to go. thanks, guys and to david for joining us, before you whip out the credit card. check if it's okay, a big security breach scare, rocking the industry and get the name

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>> predictions, gary b. >> buy rim on buyout rumors alone the should be up 30%. >> brenda: and bull or bear. >> i'm a rim bear. >> brenda: jonas your prediction. >> hunger games is going to make archery a popular sport. dks. >> brenda: toby a bull or bear. >> i'm a bear. >> brenda: john your prediction. >> and shakes off the recent security breach and up 20%. >> brenda: gary b bull or bear. >> bearish for now. >> and most this singing. >> brenda: jonas, bull other bear. >> aim' a beer bear. >> brenda: sometimes it's better to say nothing.