what si the for them to hold on to this. >> it's bureaucracy. >> also. >> tomb stow than is a legend. >> john: after a storm knocked out tombstone's water supply they said you can repair it was said by the feds. >> then there is obamacare. >> this is on the road to serfdom. >> but the reason one part of america has gotten off the road to serfdom. not that everyone was happy about that but the governor of puerto rico might say how we can get off the road to serfdom. >> there is hope. we might not be dragged down by the chains if we make a moral case for capitalism and limited government. that is our show tonight.

>> john: the burden of government constantly grow. politicians spend more and regulate more. this is the road to ser 2/3 dom. that is what prize winning economist called it, hence my chain. government expansion is done to protect us, ensuring fairness and people like that. president obama used the word fair nine times in lasts state of the union address. >> our fair share of taxes. >> my fair taxes. fair shea, it's not fair, unfair trading practices. >> john: look, i'm for fairness but the author of the "road to freedom," says he is wrong. he is arthur brooks, a columnist agrees with him. your point first, people that

defend free markets argue that it gives us the power to prosper we're saying it the wrong way. >> we've heard since we've been studying, cat lism gives us the greatest prosperity, that is true but that is not the reason we should care about those things. but why we feed freedom and why we want freedom and we can't concede this point about fairness. the president is making a moral claim that state is fair enterprise and that is factually inaccurate. we define fairness as creating an opportunity society and rewarding merlt and only free enterprise. >> you used the word statism. he would say redistribution helping the poor? >> statism means the en tral institution which our economy is

based on is the state. they are the ones that know the best. if you look at the data, i know you have a million times. you have shown it on the show. the size of government is growing and growing and fair price system even as we knew it 05 years ago doesn't exist. >> john: you go further than that. you say we're on the road to hell. [ laughter ] >> i think that is about right. you look at the last quarter, first quarter of 2023 we produced more debt in society wean did g.d.p. we're borrowing more money than we are producing. we that can't go on for very long. the government is more intrusive and more authoritarian. >> john: it's about fairness and helping the poor. >> i find it interesting when i talk to my friends on the left. i said what is that number? the top 1% of income tax filers

earn 17% and pay 37% of income tax. if that number is fair, what if, it's more and more and more. >> john: it's hard to make a moral case for equality. in free society some will do better than others. >> that is great thing. we have to worry about mobility. if you are worried about inequality you will bring the top down. if you are worried about mobility you can earn your success. >> john: we can no longer earn success. >> we need to root out the way that is rigged. corporate cronyism is a part of the growing state. the reason we have it is because the government has earned. if we focus on that we could get back on the right path. >> and corporate cronyism or crony capitalism and how does that people -- because the

politically connected you are get deals. >> you have friends in the washington and you have the best lawyers and accountants. that shuts out everybody that is trying to start a business. most of the jobs are creating by businesses five years or older. these are not people who are not well connected. basically if a public sector unions and large corporations that are too big to fail and other people get all the deems where does it leave the rest of america? >> john: mobility. the data i've seen is conflicted. a pew study of all people found that lots of people who were in the bottom quarter ended up in the top and people on the top end up on the bottom. >> sure, bits 44% on the people get out of that within the next ten years and top fall. that is lower than it was and that is what we should worry

about. >> one of the things we a need make, less focus on the income gap. let's say you have two job offers, $50,000 and $55,000 and job "b" you make $50,000500,000 and your boss is making a million dollars. i think the focus is really on the wrong thing. >> john: have you ever anyone say i would rather make the $50,000. >> some people focus on the envy aspect. let's focus the gap, that is almost an icon for them. >> envy is a big deal. people that do feel envious, the key thing about them, they feel they don't have mobility. they can't get ahead. people who think they can get ahead want even if there is a

lot of ineastbound adequate they want a society that has mobility. so protect the opportunity society and say inequality is perfectly okay. >> john: one person that changed the terms of the debate in the way you describe is charles murray when you wrote losing ground. welfare was something that was going there and anybody that fought it was cruel. >> basically said that the problem with the welfare system is not a waste of money which it was. it was hurting the people that was supposed to help. as soon as the moral claim was laid out the fuse was lit. all major policy reforms take ten years, it took 12 years before he wrote that in 1984 and bill clinton signed the welfare reform legislation into law in 1996. >> john: it's exciting maybe in ten years we can turn this around. first time last few years i've heard politicians talking about the exploding government and it

being a problem. we have a graph that shows the federal spending. tornado line is really ugly and unsustainable, ten years? we can turn this around? >> there are a lot of people persuaded in this country? fairness, we need to have to have the buffett rule. >> it appeals to people. >> we have to say okay, if you a want to talk fairness, it's not feeling for our kids and grandkids. not giving bailouts to auto corporations. >> john: go to the politicians with the signs and saying they can't. >> on the book tour people say to me, you libertarians you don't care about the poor. it's interesting that even before the depression before any of these social programs existed

nobody in america was starving on the streets. charities existed to help people and mutual aid societies. there was 10,000 of them, they were racist, blacks helping blacks and swede helping swedes. now, we're so much richer, charities like that would step in and really help poor people. >> they could. there are two classes of people in america, people that should have their own money away and people that believe we should give your money away. >> if we got rid of all the social programs, people wouldn't starve on the street. >> people wouldn't starve on the street but i don't belief we should get rid of all associating programs either. we focus on hiyek. >> but the safety net is not about middle-class welfare or taking the risk out of life and not trying to lure inequality. that is what paul ryan called a

hammock. >> and rather than having a program on poor people that really need help we give things to everybody, prescription drug plan and president bush, let's do something for poor people that are 80 years old can't take care of themselves, as soon as you turn 65, everybody gets drug benefits. >> john: so you get free stuff. you talk about the moral case for capitalism. why not say it didn't go far enough. why have any government safety net. charity will do it all better. >> there is evidence that certain things that charity won't address adequately according to our values, according to moral wishes. the mentally ill, hospitals for the mentally ill. what we found there is not evidence they would be

adequately cover and that is what i want my taxes to go through. to me, having the mentally ill in the streets, it's not to make more people economically equal or bail people out that is able-bodied. that is nuts. that is what is leading us down the road in the first place. >> john: thank you. coming up, they tell a town sure you can repair the water supply, you can't use modern tools to do it, you have to use horses and hand tools like they want us to ♪ [ male announcer ] american innovation. 29 years ago, it helped us invent the minivan. ♪ today dodge grand caravan is the most awarded minivan ever. ♪ who knows where innovation can take us next?

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>>. >> john: tombstone, arizona, one of more famous towns in america, a the movie explains. >> tombstone as a legend the story of wyatt earp 3.

>> they are less like arely to have gun fights these days but it allows the story to do whatever they want to to you. i don't think he would think kindly of what the u.s. agriculture department did to tombstone. rain washed out the pipes that delivered spring water to the city. >> if a huge sbourld down every which way and you have the force of that was tremendous. >> john: these city workers showed us what the storm did to the papers to. >> it got twisted up and wrapped around trees. >> john: so the city started to repair the pipe because what is more important than water in a desert? but the federal government came in and said, no, your repairs might hurt wildlife. i can only rebuild if you use horses and hand tools.

that sounded wrong to the goldwater institute. their president is darcy olson. >> we thought it was a physical problem. we didn't realize it was a forest service saying, sure, you can go access your water as long as do you it with horses and hand tools. >> they explained the feds wanted to protect these animals. don't people matter? >> no, of course not. we don't matter. >> john: darcy olson joins us now. people don't matter. come on. people matter? >> this is declared state of emergency in arizona. >> john: they declared it a water emergency? >> right, there is not enough water. there is a two day supply and all the water is gone. they are not asking for resources or money, all they are asking is that their water that they own on park lands. >> john: they had 25 springs

that sent them water and the storm destroyed all but one and riarnd two and they were stopped? >> right. basically they went in and doing some work and the forest service folks came out, they had a wheelbarrow, that is too much mechanicization for this area, a wheelbarrow. it could destroy the wildlife. >> john: and these bureaucracy, they are environment zell lots and they choose to go to work for these people? >> one of the things that was absurd to us, when it happened and all the springs were ruined, there were e-mails going out by ecological extremists, ins wonderful the pipe springs have been liberated as if having water in pipes is too anti-nature for them.

they had a picture of a spot owl on top of a broken water pipe. >> john: that is the animal they are trying to save, spotted owl and mexican spotted owl. a leopard frog and a giant skipper butterfly? >> they are throwing all kinds of excuses why they are not allowing people access to their water. the fire that burned, destroyed that habitat. there is no spotted owls. when you walk through the woods there is not a sound in the forest at all. there is nothing left there. that has been been destroyed. nevertheless, all those animals did cohabit with the pipe springs. >> john: you run the libertarian think tank and you shall suing? >> we are. we are not going into the weeds but the tenth amendment

explicitly provides that the federal government cannot get in wait of the states or municipalities protecting the life and safety of their residents. in this case you've got a town at risk not only not having water but fire and people need access to their water. >> john: the local bureaucracy live there, too, don't they want water? >> they do but they are working for the forest service and trying to do their jobs. they are not making those decisions. those decisions are made in washington. >> john: god bless washington which puts us on that road to serfdom. thank you darcy olson of goldwater institute. coming up, will obamacare bring us on the road to serfdom? a doctor says, you bet. then government takes your money and spends it on empty buildings? >> it's just empty. what is in it for them?

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>>. >> john: want a new way to punish kid. if they misbehave they will have to read this, this is obamacare, this is patient protection affordable care act. we're told this will make healthcare cheaper and giving more coverage to more people. how could it do both? it can't but some people have so much faith in government control. i just wrote this book to refute of the better life through more government, but central planning appeals to people. we believe that our wise leaders can make things better. however, the doctors at the association of american

physicians and surgeons are skeptical about that. former president is orthopedic surgeon lee he b. you know what the road to serfdom means. how did that happen? >> i like that read ideas and i like free markets. >> john: they do seem to work better but this appealed to lots of people. the idea that we have to worry about paying for healthcare and other countries take care of you. why isn't this better? >> well, other countries purport to take care of you. we have a lot of history in the 20th century, for instance soviet union he had flee health care but boris yeltsin went to america for his health care and soviet union was good enough for

great masses but not good enough for boris yeltsin. >> they are asking to be exempted because they realize they can't afford it. as much as obamacare is a problem, everybody is concerned about 2700 pages in the bill, if it goes away tomorrow the problem doesn't go away tomorrow. the problem started in 1965 when the advent of medare and medicaid that have grown into monstrous vampire programs that suck the life blood out of american people. >> john: people like health care. >> until it collapses but seniors are find out it's harder and to find a physician that takes medicare. ultimately government medicine fails and when it fails it fails spectacularly. i talked to people around the world and i look at the data. there is a difference between

feel good medicine and good medicine. i believe medicine is between a doctor and a patient not between a government and a bureaucrat and a patient. if you look at, for example, almost any marker you want. survival cancer rates, they are significantly better in the united states. they may feel good in finland but they have universal health care. the five year survival right raitd for men for cancer in europe is 47%. in united states it's 66%. that is not chump change. so sultan needed care he came to ph.d. anderson. >> and. >> despite those examples they say you want to dump healthcare. if you are poor you die? >> well, i am old enough to remember when health care was not run by the government.

my father practiced medicine in a small town in iowa. people weren't dying on the streets then. the answer to medical care is what we did back then and it worked. it's the 3 c's of health care, cash for out patient care. when you have cash the price of things go down. competition makes everything better. we have no competition in government monopoly medicare. >> john: cash, catastrophic insurance but first right now you expect the insurance company to pay. a few people have health saving accounts and they will say to the doctor, does it need to cost that. nobody has asked the question before. the doctor says, oh, you are paying cash. now, i guess it will cost less than if you pay me now. they don't know where to put the cash. is that what you mean? >> absolutely.

an example of that is lasic. it used to cost $5,000. because no insurance and medicare doesn't cover it, it's cash. now, we have the same competent surgeons. lasik the cost has gone from $5,000, i see it advertised for $500. that is what cash does. >> john: the quality has gone up? >> exactly. if people paid cash for out patient items and use catastrophic insurance means that it's only for big ticket items, you break your femur, long term hospitalization but we use our health insurance for every proverbial oil change. we go in with a runny nose, we wanted it taken care of. i had seven employees. i was in a big orthopedic practice. i had seven employees and five

of them dealt with the paperwork with billing third party payers. now with government involved they won't let you charge below a certain rate even if you come in and you are uninsured, i want to give you a charitable deal, i can't go blow medicare rates. >> john: do you think charity will take care of the poor? >> we used to run charities very well, the local communities took care of each other but that goes away because we have a government welfare idea. it's not charity when you reach into your neighbor's pocket and force him to pay for somebody else's broken hip. we get the cost down through cash and catastrophic insurance you can afford to be charitable. >> john: i believe that the free market will do everything better

but people will say to me, it works for consumer goods but for complicated things like healthcare the government has to take control because it's too complex? >> i reject that. the individual can do this. i talk to business groups all around the country, my first question, when is government ever gone into your business and made it more cost-effective. it doesn't work for your business, it doesn't work for mine either. they apply it applies to medical care do. we produce goods and services just like other businesses. they may think it's more complicated because of the 150,000 regulations. >> john: so next time they foist this on it. we should say no way?

>> no way. >> john: thank you. there is one part of mesh naeshg got us off the road to serfdom, how did they do it. that is puerto rico. the governor there cut the deficit from $3.3 billion to deficit from $3.3 billion to $610 million. (spoken in mandarin)

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ask if nexium is right for you. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. doeshere's what you can the finaexpect from regions.ds? a bank that provides you with real business expertise. check. a professional optimization of your cash flow with a regions cashcor analysis. check. cash management solutions and the smart lending options you need to grow your business. check. plus, it all comes with award-winning service to help you achieve more balance. interested? let's talk. looking good. (bike bell) the calcium they take because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food. that's why my doctor recommends citracal maximum. it's all about absorption. >>. >> john: america's is on the

road to serfdom because our politicians won't stop spending. few years back, one part of the america was further down that road. that is puerto rico. politicians spent so much and that business fled. their deficit was enormous, when the current governor was elected there wasn't even enough money to pay the government's workers. he is here. he may have taken puerto rico off the road to serfdom. what did you do? >> we did what every american family does at home, every business. we stopped spending we were taking in. we just focus on what was important. we started lowering taxes. >> john: you can't cut a deficit by lowering taxes and in the mainland politicians haven't wanted to do that? >> we have cut our budget by

90%. we are on the road to balance our budget next year. >> john: how? you fired workers, even in wisconsin with all that fuss, the governor didn't fire anybody. you actually fired government workers? >> at the end of the day, i cut my own salary by 10%. i froze everyone's salary. i cut dramatically all government contracts and merged agencies. we had to let go people. we also provided a mechanism for others to leave and start their own businesses. they are making a lot more money. it makes more sense for them and for our taxpayers. >> john: we interviewed one woman that started her own business that she named after the law that fired her. >> it's not easy. it was most difficult decision i have ever made, having said

that, however, it was right thing to do. >> john: that means 39,000 people work for the government. 12,500 we're fired. >> you were really unpopular. people practically rioted outside your house. >> it is a tough position. when you are on used to having the government take care of everything, you wonder what is going to happen the next day. the next day, you set up your own business or you go to work with somebody else's business and proper conditions, simpler rules. the process was so crazy to start a business so we simplified it dramatically. you go to one office. one result is that businesses that have fled are now returning?

>> of course. they are expanding. a lot of people are looking at us again. >> john: walmart, costco, coca-cola? >> it makes sense to set up business and simpler to set up a business. you can keep more of your own hard earned money. >> john: puerto rico is good news story in my depressing book about deficit spending. i have this vision that americans are going to go to their state capitals with a sign and start saying politicians, no you can't spend all of our money. do you have any sense that people are getting this message? >> i certainly hope so. it makes sense to get your fiscal house in order and simplify the rules of the game so that people can actually invest and grow their businesses and create jobs. >> john: leave it to non-politicians? >> of course.

politicians will mess it up. that is way i see it. do any of your colleagues get that? >> there are many governors around the country that are doing the same thing. you have to look at the state level to understand how you are supposed to run a government. >> john: people called you a nazi after the firings and were very upset. a poll last year had you down 22 points behind your likely opponent but this year? >> we're even. i'm convinced if you create the proper conditions, create the jobs in the private sector, lower taxes that voters will come out. that is exactly what is happening. they won't come around away. people don't like firing of government workers. >> ronald ronald reagan was unpopular at first but they see results.

>> that is what voters are looking for, results. i'll give you an example. one of our main toll roads, they were not well maintained, well lit and preserved. we provided a 40 year concession to a private sector company. >> john: a private profit making company? >> of course. the toll roads are much better now. actually well kept and run by the private sector. next month we'll do the same thing with the main airport. we are doing with penitentiary facilities even school construction are now being handled from the private sector. >> john: is eight band-aid? >> it's not easy. i'm the first one. >> john: it's better? >> it works. >> john: this does work. it works. not everybody is willing to take

the risk of top of it even if it's the right thing to do. >> john: next, we take to government buildings paid for by you that just sit empty. >> every year they lose $6 million? >> yes. this part has been vacant for 15 years, i know it's unbelievable years, i know it's unbelievable i have two car insurances in front of you here. let's start with car insurance x. four million people switched to that car insurance alone just last year. mmm, it's got a nice bouquet. our second car insurance, y. mmmmm, oh, i can see by your face they just lost another customer. you chose geico over the competitor. calm down, calm down. you're getting carried away. of how a shipping giant can befriend a forest

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leasing more of it, but they don't. in the nation's capital, florida congressman discovered that wastes tons of money letting office buildings sit empty. >> 90,000 square feet, a block from here to here unused. >> this is called the cotton inn. it's so close to the white house they say it's worth $150 million. yet it's been empty for five years. >> it's not just buildings, it's property too. this is a small building. this is only 90,000 square feet. >> one down the street leasewood million square feet without any tenants. >> john: what is it in it for them? >> it's bureaucrats. they can't make a decision. they have thousands of these properties and no one wants to make a decision. >> this is here in miami,

chicago, los angeles. >> down the street the old post office. thankfully part of it is rented out but the government loses $6 million a year because the annex sits empty. >> it's been vacant for 15 years. >> john: it's not like a dump. its beautiful space. i know some gsa employees were caught making videos where they brag about wasting our money. but they didn't do it all but they didn't do it all the time. >> i don't get the motivation. i would assume they would want to do a good job. >> there is month motivation in government. >> john: come on, no motivation? >> that is our job to motivate. the taxpayers is left holding bag. they don't see this going on. no one pays attention.

we're sitting on valuable assets when we are running up trillion dollar deficits. >> so the gsa admits it has 14,000 buildings it calls excess the government even has a map that list them. it's kind of fun you can click on one of dots and learn how your money is being wasted. i'll post a link but congressman 14,000 excess buildings they admit to don't even include the empty buildings you showed us? >> there are many more. and then what is under gsa control, post offices and military installations that are sitting back. >> the omb sent us a response to our questions. they say a year ago president called on congress to cut through the red tape and they have 20 steps it must go through

before moving a property to sale. they say it's congress's fault? >> part of it is. some people do benefit by keeping things the way they are. >> we couldn't wait for congress so we have cut excess real estate costs by $1.5 billion weewlgt can go much further. when you have approaching $17 trillion in debt and endangering you are children's future you have to start somewhere. we should have the private sector engaged in property management, only the government can do it best -- that is flawed way of conducting the people's big. >> john: you used to be a private developer so you understand the differences? >> absolutely. i don't know anyone that would turn over their property or anything they own to the federal government or government to manage. they would have to be crazy. >> john: thank you. good luck saving us some money.

up next, julia, her touching story is a slide show on the obama campaign website. what government promises to julia is reason why america is ♪ how are things on the west coast? ♪ ♪ i hear you... ♪ rocky mountain high ♪ rocky, rocky mountain high ♪ ♪ all my exes live in texas ♪ ♪ born on the bayou [ female announcer ] the perfect song for everywhere can be downloaded almost anywhere. ♪ i'm back, back in the new york groove ♪ [ male announcer ] the nation's largest 4g network. covering 2,000 more 4g cities and towns than verin. rethink possible.

zbleejts. >> john: it is over to the top to wear chains and say america is on the road to serfdom. you know however because you watched this show. you know that it's the title of this important book written by nobel prize winner f. hayek. he says it leads to sag nation and poverty.

most important change with expensive government control produces is a psychological change in the character of the people. it teaches people to be helpless and turns us into serfs. serfs worked the land and could never most per because the land was controlled by the government at the time. rulers kept people dependent. i'm not going to argue that today's politicians want to make us dependent, but the welfare state is well intended. they believe in central planning but to believe in it after its failure in the soef yoet yet union, in cuba, in north korea, the post office, to still believe that time central planning will work, that takes some willful blindness. my president is a smart guy. i didn't believe he was so be willfully blinding in i saw his

latest picture. it's called the life of julia. a slide show featured on the obama's website. julia gets a head start from the federal head start program. then at 17, federal money raises her test scores. in college she gets free surgery thanks to the government and as young worker free birth control. when she has a child. she has public facilities and great teachers through retirement when social security allows her to retire and volunteer at a community garden. isn't government great? well, no, it's not great. a life of handouts sucks the spirit out of people. it makes us serfs. if we all lived her life it would not be good for america. even if the slide show were accurate. that is what creeps me out. this advertisement on the president's own website is not

accurate. it ignores obvious truths. three-year-old julia will not get a head start from the program. the government's own research found that despite spending $20,000 per child, the program does not help kids. government will raise julia's s.a.t. scores -- there is no evidence for that. government spending on education has tripled but test scores are flat. in college, julia may get nice perks like a pool subsidized by your federal tax dollars. when julia gets her free contraceptives and knee surgery taxpayers will have to pay for it. julia's son may not find many great teachers at his school and they won't allow choices and she won't be able to retire because

social security and medicare are bankrupt, unsustainable and she will have trouble finding a job because government regulations will further killed job growth. give me a break. politicians, do they live in a fantasy world? $16 trillion debt keeps growing, every taxpayer's share is more than $100,000. this big government will lead julia passive and miserable. you got to get off this road. it is, indeed, the road to serfdom. that is our show. thanks for watching. c'mon dad!

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