heard from old people. >> despite all the problems we have we have more freedom to live how we wanted to. >> john: is america in decline? that is our show tonight. 4 >> john: few has said it as often as glenn beck saying that the survival of our republic hangs in the balance and wondering if we will close the book on america. >> i don't know we were going to close the book, i'm quoting you he is the crazy man. >> i'm told that. [ laughter ] >> you have a choice, john. you look at the numbers. you use common sense. you see where we're headed.

we're a country that is damn near insane in major cities in places like washington, d.c. and detached from everything that we used to hold dear. >> john: detached from everything we hold dear, chaos in the cities. i don't see that. >> have you been in new york city? all right. i dngtd know if you saw the occupy wall street. >> john: there was a tiny fraction of america. sorry, go ahead. >> tiny fraction of america, but you just said we're also going broke, but you have slices of bus, everything where we are losing -- we are asleep. we are not holding ourselves responsible. no one is holding anybody in washington responsible. we're making progress and going in the right direction but

coming this september or november we have a choice. i don't think i've ever seen a clearer choice. >> john: november, actually. >> i've never seen a clearer choices, i'm not a romney supporter but it's still a stark choice. which path are we going to go on. >> john: one path, teaching dependency the road to serfdom. >> right the other path is slower road to serfdom, but at least we will recognize that road, sever fdom is right around the corner. you take it to the lemonade stands where they are trying to squeeze that out of us. you saw how long it took to get a lemonade stand in new york. i saw your episode. >> john: more than 60 days. >> exactly right. what is that about? we're teaching our children all the wrong things. >> john: and i'm glad what you

are doing you are running a national lemonade stand and bake sale because some cities are banning bake sales and hug-a-thon. >> you can't hug anymore in school. is it really bad that our kids are hugging? no, but the kids are doing things beyond hugging. in the 1990s we said oral sex doesn't matter. yes, it does. yes, it does. >> before we go to oral sex, let's get back to hugging. the schools that have banned and told kids don't hug each other. already teachers are being told the head of teachers union told me he sells teacher don't put a child on your lap to comfort her never touch a child because of fear of lawsuits and fear of the accusations. is that who we are? >> teachers were molesting kids.

>> teachers senior still molesting kids. >> how do we know it's worth it. >> are you saying it's better? >> because we are not hugging. >> i think some people still hug and people fight back. >> here is the point. we're teaching people not to connect with others. teaching instead of getting sued don't reach out for a child who is seriously distraught and hugs them and comforts them. that is not 40 ho we all. and what is the bake sale all about? >> to keep people from getting fat. >> no, it's not. no, it's not. it's about controlling people. what does a bake sale teach? if we come together, look, john you do what you do, i make a great pie and i make a great cake. we get together and we'll be friends and do it ourselves. if we can't do little simple

things like that, we're going to need somebody else to do it for us. you'll have to fill all the paperwork to raise money. >> i don't think we have a sweeping crime wave of death from poison from lemonade from six-year-olds. >> john: kids still have lemonade stands. nobody arrested me. of course i had cameras outside? >> that kind of helps. >> john: you told andrew napolitano i don't think we'll survive 2016, four years from now. do you think we're going to make it on this trek? >> i think in 2030 we'll be bankruptcy bankrupted. >> but i think that we will survive. >> you've been watching what is going on in europe? >> yes. >> they told me two years ago, it was insane that nazis would

get any power in greece. they now have 6%. >> john: 20% of americans believe in ghosts. [ laughter ] >> 6%, two years ago it was .03%. 70 years ago, the nazis killed 10% of the greek population. now their children and grandchildren, maybe the nazis have an answer. problem is there is no reason, there is no logic being used. if that is the case. if people continue to abuses their power and continue to abuse people's money, their tax dollars and run up into incredible debt as europe goes, so will we. >> john: people listen to the extreme, that is not a good idea. >> and you were anticipating

riots from the extreme? >> still do. >> john: in 2016? >> i think we'll have problems in the streets around the election time. think we'll have them this year. we already have, how many murders with occupy wall street, six. how much damage? >> john: six people have been murdered? >> six people have been murdered. >> john: but the murder rate is down, teen pregnancy rate is down. school violence is down. >> good news. the question is america in decline? >> john: i'm not so sure it is, financially we're going broke but morally doing well. >> morally i think we are in trouble because our system is pushing the opposite direction on what made us great. what made us great was merited.

individual merit. being the strong individual that has an idea, you say i'm going to go out and do it. >> john: on that note, glenn beck, thank you, more doom and gloom, our culture is in decline our military and economy. it's what the experts say but they may be wrong and i'll fight with john bolton and patted buchanan and others, next. [ male announcer ] introducing a powerful weapon in your fight against bugs. ortho home defense max. with a new continuous spray wand. and a fast acting formula. so you can kill bugs inside, and keep bugs out. guaranteed. ortho home defense max.

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>> john: when people say america is in decline, often they are talking about the military. many republicans say that president obama has made us weaker and less able to protect ourselves and our allies. what do you mean? >> i think whatever stability there is in the world, whatever there is essentially provided by

the united states and it's system of alliances. i'm not of the view that the united states is the world's policemen. i think our role is to protect our interests and those of our friends and allies. we are the only world power and it's a big job. >> john: but why is that good? doesn't our role as the dominant power of the negative impact? if there was chinese security forces outside the studio frisking me, i would be furious. i think other countries get furious when we have troops everywhere? >> i think most other countries understand and appreciate the role that we play. what criticism we get often masks the private position is that they understand that only the united states can play that role. don't get me wrong. i think a lot of other countries are free riding on the united states and a lot of countries, best friends in the nato alliance should do a lot more to

help protect them. >> john: they are free loading. they are against the welfare state. it's a welfare world? >> a lot of it is. but a lot of countries are stepping up. japan is stepping up, countries like britain and france try to pull their own weight but there are plenty that don't. one role for an american president is be much more assert active if you want to be under our umbrella, then you have to play your role. >> john: government leaders like our umbrella protection but don't we make new enemies. that a kid can made an ide and provide an explosive device. our main goal is not to tick people off around the world? >> that is the view that jean kirkpatrick called the blame america first view. people sit around until they get

irritated by the united states, i think it's exact the opposite. a strong america deters that would do us harm, when they see a weakening america it encourages them. >> john: you talk about a strong america. i look what some people wanted our military to do. protect the sea lanes, secure the oil sales and transform states into democracies chase terrorists. protect other states from aggression. it's endless which is the problem. >> it can be endless. there is some things, like bringing democracy and the like to the entire world, i don't define that as being part of american's interests. i agree with john quincy adams, america does not go abroad to search for monsters but the defender of its own.

>> john: are you glad we are coming out of afghanistan and iraq? >> i think there was too much effort under the bush and obama administrations in iraq and afghanistan on nation building. i think that did mistake. i don't think we can build other nations any more the government can build the u.s. nation. people have to built it. what we should have been doing more and what we are risking a huge defeat on by not doing more of is the military side of things. not to protect iraq, not to protect afghanistan but to protect ourselves. when we lost sight of that, i think that is when the american people tuned out. >> john: we should say there to protect ourselves? >> yes. we will of necessity bring benefits to the iraqis and of a gangs because of our presence but we're not there to make them a switzerland. we are there to defend american interests. i think we need to raise spending because the nature of

the threats we face. some of the things we are doing with more expensive technology save american lives. the drones that people are talking about, even if they get shot down, no american pilots are getting killed. i would spend more money to protect more american lives. >> john: right now we have 28,000 in south korea, 53,000 in germany? >> i would move a lot of troops in eastern central europe closer to the potential danger zones in the middle east. i think the troops we have in south korea which are going to be repositioned i hope are in a good place in case there is trouble in east asia. >> john: but we can't cut the numbers? >> you have to look at what the threats are. the threats we face are growing. we see an increasingly assertive belligerent china in build up of forces. we see russia.

>> john: why is it in their interested to attack us. they had meifld aimed the at us the russians did? >> they want to use their growing force and economic power to increase their influence to the point in their region. >> john: trade is win-win on both sides? >> there is political influences and economic dominance. >> john: what does economic dominance means? >> it means the ability in the case of china to impose its will economically on those countries. >> john: they want us to sell us stuff and we wanted to buy stuff? >> i think it goes to the terms of trade and ability of china to get better terms for its side. >> john: you can't force people to buy stuff? >> they can sell and the way they have influenced is to tilt the economic marketplace in their direction. it's the question of trying to

calibrate what our interests are worldwide and having the assets and political will power to be able to defend it. it's when people see us as losing our will power, falling in the same kind of decline mode that you see all over europe, not being willing to spend what it takes to defend our interests they say america can be taken advantage of. >> john: interesting conversation. we can debate what is decline. ambassador, thank you. coming up, we hear american culture is going down the tubes, there is so much sex, violence and corrupting kids. corrupting everybody. but is that true? we debate that next.

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>>. >> john: is it just because i'm getting old but is american culture much dumber and much more crass. on magazines, it's kardashians and jersey shore. little kids have much more exposure to graphic porn and graphic video games than adults used to have. what is the result? the neoshg times talks about the decline of america's exceptional my guests have said that american culture is in decline. nick gillespie the author of what do you mean it's nonsense. >> they are watching more violence and more sex. they are doing less of all of those things. when you look at all the data about long term trends of

teenagers of high school seniors and people like that, they are having less sex than they used to. they are doing less drugs. they are committing less crime than they did in the early 90s. they are not acting out like that. more power to them. they seem to be getting the idea you can watch the stuff rather than enact it in life. >> john: predictions were horrifying and convincing. video games, we're teaching kids to kill. >> more people having a voice and choice when it comes to cultural offerings and lifestyle offerings for america's decline. what it means that more people at more levels are free to pursue what they find to be what they want to do, whether it's watching the kardashians or watching the hunger games. it's funny, when we talk about decline, i can remember when i was kid, snyder of twisted

sister they wanted to ban his record, pmrc. it's parents research center an attempt by tipper gore to ban filthy rock music. d.snyder came out okay. >> john: they see media aiding moral decline? >> how do you define moral decline, well pornography is moral decline. the divorce rate is better than under ronald reagan. they are smoking less pot. things change. it is in our dna that our kids are disappointing to us, they are more out of control or beyond our control. sadly for old people, it's not true. it's great for the rest of us. >> john: if you are ready to believe it the media feed us

this stuff, some of the headlines, a troubling trend in teens drinking hand sanitizer? >> that's right. this was a big story in "new york times." as many as six kids showed up in emergency rooms having hand sanitizer and like butt chugging >> john: and headline on vodka soaked tampons. >> everybody wants to read about out of control kids. just as reading or watching pornography does not mean you are going to have more sex in your life. reading about this stuff reading about this stuff kids are acting that way. >> john: how do you know they are not? >> we know it from a wide variety of data sources which

has every reason to exaggerate the bad behavior of children. they have been tracking like this, monitoring the future which looks like the use of drugs and alcohol and tactic. they show that violent crimes by teens are down. >> john: so be happy and don't worry? >> i think kids do have real problems. the real problems don't come from their behavior but it comes from adults like you and me. skewing them by running a government that is spending too much and destroying the economy. >> john: on that negative note, thank you. patted buchanan that curly politically in decline. we'll fight next. ♪

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>>. >> john: is america in decline? absolutely says pat buchanan. his book which recently got him fired from msnbc says socially, culturally and morally america has taken on the aspect of a decadent society. suicide of a superpower is what it's called and a declining nation, why? >> let's take a look at it.

we're unable to win our wars. we can't control the borders, we can't stop the hemorrhaging of manufacturing abroad. >> john: we didn't win vietnam? >> we begin losing wars. that is quite right. we didn't lose that, you could say at the end, the war was lost the american army didn't lose it. john, the basic problem is culturally, morally, religiously politically, if take a look at it we aren't the nation under kennedy and eisenhower. morally we are divided. creation yant is clearly in retreat. we have no common moral code. we are at each other threats over homosexual marriage. >> john: but it's good conflict to discuss it? >> but you need to change that hadn't taken playing in western

society in 2,000 years. i think we have under gone a moral and cultural revolution and made a nation in decline. look at all the ways we are divided. religiously, racially we are divided. look at our politics. >> john: but we have always been? >> not as divided as we were. >> john: they were enslaved in eisenhower days. we had segregation? >> i grew up in eisenhower's washington, d.c. and kennedy's washington, d.c. that was a predominantly christian community. >> john: how is that better ywh is it better? i'll tell you why. >> john: gays were locked in the closet. meant women continue have a credit card without her husband's permission? >> the good old days at least we were one day and one people. do you think the country is a success today? you have lost, america we're now

24%. >> john: so what. whole economy is bigger, china and india is richer, that is good for everybody? >> do you think a good thing that western nations are in decline? not a single western nation has a birth rate that will enable it to reproduce itself all across europe. germans are going to lose 8 million. japan is going to lose 25 million people. >> john: that is not my problem. >> let's take america. racial ethnic composition of this country, 90% were from europe. we all had that ethnic core. 95% of us were christian. we had tremendous common things, now the white population is down to 63%. it will clearly be a any majority and we'll be a nation of any majorities. when it is you ask yourself what

is it that holds us together. if we don't believe in the same god, we don't have the same religion. we don't have the same moral code. we don't agree on what is right and is what wrong. >> john: we have the constitution, the declaration of independence. [ applause ] >> john: we have liberty and the right to pursuit happiness. that is enough for you. what does the ninth amendment say about abortion. >> john: i have no idea. >> it says nothing at all until it now says that abortion is legal but constitutional. what i'm saying john, look at the constitution. we don't agree on it. you have your supreme court polarized. >> john: we've always had fights what the constitution means. >> do you think this country is as strong and as stable and secure and as dominant as it was

under eisenhower and kennedy? >> i don't see why we need to be dominant. the russians had missiles pointed at us. we're living longer and we're richer. who needs to be dominant over the rest of the world. >> russian missiles are still pointed at you. >> john: but i see good things, longer life spans, school violence is down, murder is down. teen pregnancy is down. >> you 6 a lot of things, i'm not saying america is completely gone. how about intrainter marriage? >> that is up. >> if you take a look at the objective statistics the social indicators, international indicators, the united states is clearly i think in decline. this is what some of the great his tar forians said. civilizations die not by murder

but by suicide. >> john: i think we have problems, but we agree to disagree about this. thank you pat buchanan. >> coming up, why i

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>>. >> john: when with i hear people say america is decline, i'm skeptical. everybody talks about the good 0 le days. but they were not so great. decade after decade, despite our problems, america has gotten wealthier and healthier, too. one reason i worry one aspect of america does keep getting worse, that is this: the number of rules we're supposed to obey. they have 160,000 pages of regulations. that is what you are looking at

here. they add new ones every day. america is to prosper, we need people to start new businesses but who wants to start something if you have to hire an army of lawyers to go through all that? even after they do, you can't be certain you are compliance, even the feds don't understand their own rules. liberal columnist believes that many of the regulations are good and some should be stronger. you are looking very serious there. vernon hill who started commerce bank disagreeing. >> they are unintended consequences for the laws no one knows. in the banking world we've gone from 24,000 banks in america down to much smaller number. in the process they shrunk america's ability to support small business and growth. >> john: you should add you are

stutterer, i look stutterers on my show. isn't this too much? >> it sounds terrible. there is a lot of boxes. let me show you why it isn't quite as bad. here in america we are the ones who are still even despite all that creating all the stuff. the creativity the new industries. you only have to go to the middle of manhattan or silicon valley to see what i am talking about. this is the engine of ideas in the world. >> john: but for how long? if everybody has to read all that. >> people don't a want to be regulated. if you tell them they can't serve this to the customers you are handcuffing my creativity. >> john: they don't want to serve poisons to their customers

because they would go out of business by word of mouth? >> but even people if not controlled do bad. capitalism is unfettered is not the answer. it's a sensible regulations. we can argue about this reg or that reg but i don't think you want to throw it out whole scale. >> john: nobody is talking about whole scale but 90% i would like to though out. vernon you started commerce bank 500 banks, 16,000 employees. you created wealth. you did it by trying new stuff, open seven days a week, no stupid fees and no stupid hours? >> and no stupid rules, but now you are starting a new bank and you won't started it here. >> i started a new bank in britain, first new bank in britain for hundred years. the business environment is more

pro business in britain. we think -- regulatory environment is so overwhelmingly and micromanaging of our business it's destructive to growth. >> john: so america has created wonderful things, silicon valley you use i think works against your point because they got rich because they were far from washington and there were no rules because it was a brand-new idea? >> i think there may be a conflict between the life experience and rhetoric. i'm inspired by your story, 500 branches. that is a great success but that success happened in exactly the regulatory environment that you are bemoaning. as was apple computer as was microsoft as was thousand success stories. >> i think the point we are

making, regulatory environment in the last five years has gotten much worse. in the banking business you are used to having rules and regulations but it's gotten substantially worse in the last four or five years. >> there is a greater way to avoid that. >> go to britain. >> new regs came in because some bankers did awful stuff that did real damage to our economy. government said, hold on a second. >> of course, that is not true. that is one part of the thing. you are focusing on showy items there are millions micromanage rules because the government believes they can manage your business better. >> john: you believe dodd trang is a good things? >> it's good. >> these are banking regulations before dodd-frank. anybody that wants to start a bank has to obey all this. this is just half. >> that is not even close.

>> john: the goal is to make out safer, the assumption is in this paper you can restrict the bad behavior that protects consumers? >> there is some line if i bounce a check you can't charge me $200. >> there is no law in there. there you are. [ laughter ] >> john: if there were a line in here, don't think they were going to make it up someplace else. you think by government top down fix it? >> i'm not saying government ought to run everything. it's also not true that businesses are grind go to a halt because of these photocopies you have here. >> john: we complain too much. we don't want any rules. business is doing fine. >> we don't complain too much. we don't complain enough. the regulatory environment and

other businesses in america is completely out of control. do you believe, ellis, that ang agency in washington can make better decisions over long term than the market? >> depends on what the decisions are. >> and we 6 gone past the biggest decisions to endless micromanagement. we could find some areas that this reg or that reg but i want someone defending consumers. >> don't we want an agency like in dodd-frank that is looking out for me. >> your fellow liberals, how come you are so nervous about government power but you aren't worried about corporate power. >> john: corporations can't use force. government can. they can't force me to bank with them. >> governments 6 tanks. private corporations don't. >> we live in a mixed economy.

nobody is arguing for total government control. >> they just add more and more. once in a while they repeal a page or something. >> 500 branches under this regulatory system. >> you are wrong. >> 500. we stop -- >> couldn't take it anymore. [ laughter ] >> john: thank you vernon and ellis. glad you guys are shaking hands. coming up, my take on america in decline.

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>>. >> john: is america in decline? glenn beck says we won't survive

to 2016. soon rioting in the streets. john bolton says we are destroying our military. patted buchanan says few americans are white and europeans we are declining morally and ethically. please, our diverse it is our strength. we still spend seven times on our military than the next big e-military. chaos and rioting? people have always predicted the collapse of america. 33 years ago jimmy carter gave us the malaise speech. >> eighth crisis of confidence, not only in government itself, but in the ability as citizens to serve as the ultimate rulers and shakers of our democracy. >> john: that same year. sensible george will wrote america's decline was sergt along a downward crumbling path.

c.i.a. predicted that the soviet economy would be three times bigger than america. after the soviet union fell, this best-seller explained how europe was surpassing us. our free economy outperformed theirs. it's possible we will regulated ourselves to death. this, all these rules is why job growth has stalled. yet the i had hypothetical in washington add more, not just in washington but in state capitols and cities here. here in new york, they must regulate what we eat. and burden on all these rules, politicians are spending us into oblivion. social security and medicare are structured we babyboomers do to young people what i'm doing to

these young children. >> excuse me. i have to take some of these. i am the old person. no i won't give it back. i need this. >> more people are starting to understand this, even bill o'reilly. >> if washington continues to spend more than it takes in and doesn't reform this nation will go into steep decline. >> john: yes, if he gets it, can the rest of america be far behind? thanks to those of you speak out about it. people that fear obamacare will stop medical innovation, said, no they can't. it reminds me of a good book that i highly recommend. it explains that government fails but individuals succeed. governor scott walker of wisconsin told unions, now can't and public backed him up. others have said, no they can't to teachers unions and education

bureaucrats. that has broken the government's education monopoly, now 18 based school choice programs let poor kids break free from the monopoly. many of those kids say they like to learn. >> reading is work but it's rocking awesome! >> john: invisible hand works. around the world since i started reporting, free markets have helped three billion people. sweden and germany liberalized their labor markets and saw their economies improve. even nations in africa know there are growing numbers of free market activists critical of intrusive governments and foreign aid that propped them up. unfortunately some parts in america haven't learned these lessons. legislatures in california,

illinois and connecticut pander to unions and if you live there you will suffer for it. sorry, maybe politicians are useful idiots when your state goes bankrupt it will wake other people up. sorry if you live there. great 20th century h.l. menken a government is nothing more than a group of men, as a practical matter most of them are interior men, but by the laziness that is truth. >> there is nothing that gst can do that we can't do as free individuals and groups of individuals working together voluntarily, not at the point of a gun or under a threat of a fine. without big government, our possibilities are limitless. that is our show. we'll have a new show next week. thursday, 9:00 p.m. on the fox

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>>a minute, mom! let's broaden the world's energy mix. let's go. >> good morning, everyone, sunday, june 10th, i'm alisyn camerota, an extreme weather alert for you, dry heat fueling an 8,000 acre wildfire in colorado. structures destroyed an unknown number of people missing and officials saying that it's zero percent contained this morning. plus, heavy rains are battering the west coast. rick reichmuth is here in the weather center for us straight ahead. >> dave: investigation into the alleged white house leaks drawing fresh criticism and new concerns that they could go far beyond the oval office, just how far could the leaks go and could it impact president obama's chances of reelection. >> plus, regulation nation, forget that super sized soda ban, i