charlie. because he got it on fox business, charlie gasperino was the first to report on it and the very first guy in america to ask, are the guys asking the questions the guys who should be really answering the questions? where are those hearings? joining us is ben stein, charles payne, dagen mcdowell and stephen fitch. and charlie, you raise a very good point. in the scheme of things, this looks like a pimple on a you know what. >> and we should point out they lost 2 billion on the trade, even with that loss they're going to be making something like 3 billion dollars this quarter, next quarter and it may have a 12 to 15 billion dollar earnings year, so, this is, i mean, there's a lot of reasons, politically why they're doing these hearings and i think that jamie dimon is a big opponent of aspects of dodd frank and they want to show that this guy maybe shouldn't be an effective spokesman, but i tell you that report we got and first reported on fox

business, really shows how little this is compared to this huge elephant. everybody knows it's there, by the way, what this report did different, it spelled it out in explicit details how big it is and it's unfunded accounted, and municipalities if you go by the public statements would add up to about a trillion, 900 billion according to the report, the real number is as you said-- >> here's what's scary, charles payne, we're so focused on leaving this whole trade thing aside, you know, the unfunded liability involving medicare and social security and the other entitlement programs and then along comes charlie gasperino to report on the jp morgan side of it. you forgot about the nearly 4 trillion in underfunded pension, that's a lot of money and no way in hell anyone has remotely, remotely addressed. >> the markets are telling us, and we talk about the markets

melting down and risk and fear, lack of leadership, another gutless display for me, washington d.c. another deflection, what's the problem and who is really to blame. it's their lack of leadership, their gutless leadership of this country that really is problem number one. markets know it, people know it, businesses know it, they're retrenched and waiting for now what hit the fan and dimon turned the tables on them, time after time after time. >> and i think that we do know that these pensions ar problem, if you look at the-- >> and they spelled it out, riefrments i think if you look at the state and local level, you had senate republicans in michigan, trying to switch pension toss 401(k) style program. you had that vote recently in san diego to do the same thing because individuals at the state level, they can see how they are services are being cut and they can see bankruptcy breathing down their necks. they are tired of politicians raiding these pensions and they're tired of the people receiving them boosting them,

and beating them up in the later years of service, so, i think that you're starting to-- >> i see your point. one of the things that's very clear, at least it's in the air right now, ben stein and in your neck of the woods. when the democratic, liberal mayor of los angeles says he's got to crack down and address the public pensions in his, his city, much as the voters overwhelmingly wanted to do with san jose and in san diego, they can see and read the writing on the wall. maybe not to the alarming degree that this report spells out and charlie reported, but people are worried about tright? >> people are very worried about it. and we have a very odd situation, which normally, that worry would be reflected in higher interest rates, but, because the fed is suppressing interest rates, the markets can't react properly to what's going on. but we have an overfunds, i'm sorry, a underfunded problem with all of things in this. and all the social security is underfunded and medicare. we're looking at a greek style

catastrophe in this country down the road, we don't know how many years, it's com g and coming and no way to avoid it, it sends a lot of fears. >> you know, i'm looking at this and i'm saying, you know, charlie's spelled this out for me earlier this week on fox business network, which by the way, if you don't get, you should demand, stephen, enough about me, that's to my biggest worry and that's this basic issue, the only way to address this is to cut spending a hell of a lot and maybe that won't be enough because you'd still have the high taxes a hell of it lot. what do you do? >> i don't know if there is an easy solution and you're right, this needs to get a lot more attention from congress and i think you're probably, you know, not exactly right that this isn't getting any attention at the state level. certainly, illinois, a state that has tremendous problems underfunding, it's got a lot of attention packed. quinn did sign a bill earlier this year, rooting out some of the worst abuses, i'm sure

charlie has written on this. a lot of this goes back to putting too much trust in the fancy bankers from wall street, promised pension funds. >> why do they do this. >> get you 8% return, that's just not going to happen. >> and point out two things, yes, i mean, there have been a lot of stories about underfunded pensions, but it's kind of like the elephant in the room. now it's there, you don't know how big or bad it is and that's interesting about this report. it kind of spelled it out. >> and how would you not know an elephant is in the room? >>well, it's like knowing everybody, it's big and it's-- >>, but i-- you get to the-- when you get to the point-- >> i feel like i'm in english class. >> when you he get to the point you can't appreciate an elephant in the room. >> and that's the problem, and it's bigger than the trillion dollars that they're saying, remember, the states and cities, if you-- >> let's not get mired in the numbers, get to the bigger point, do you think that all the aggressive cutting in the

world is going to solve, you really radically whack spending or have benefits. even some of the draconian things, is that going to address it? >> yes, it will. but it's politically and the report talks how politically difficult it is. neil, here is the thing, why did jp morgan keep this report secret which they did? we were able to get it from a close to the company. why did they keep it secret? they were so afraid about getting on the wrong side of their clients, these big cities and states that are also clients. >> there is a little issue for them to deal with. >> but, charles payne, i'm asking this, i would have been tempted if i were jamie dimon at the hearing, the legal issues into the withstanding to hold it up and saying, guys, you're talking about my 2 billion dollar trade here, you are sitting on a nuclear bomb. >> the panel has brought up the fact that, you know, america's losing that much money, you know, on a daily basis, but i did think he did a great job with respect to bringing up some of the the issues they should deal with like the fiscal cliff. don't wait until december

31st, because the markets are going to react a lot sooner than that. so, that's one of the ways he did turn this around and it can be solved-- >> what is that in the lawmakers fell at his feet. they were-- >> are you kidding me, of course they-- >> lost 2 billion, but how would you regulate the financial system, just saying, they were very kind. >> by the way, by the way, new jersey senator menendez, you know, lecturing this guy on markets and how they work, i mean, he's not heading to the nearest mensa picnic. really, come on. >> i would only say this about menendez, he at least spiced up what was one of the most boring things. i was there and-- >> spiced it up for the the wrong reasons, come on. >> spiced it, but-- >> at least my eyes perked up because both sides were kissing-- >> and he had held up the paper and done this, what would those lawmakers have done? the same thing that they're doing about all the federal

problems with social security and medicare and trillion dollar debt. >> one thing that should point out dimon said hundreds of regulators were in the office and missed this, missed this. >> it's very true. >> hundreds. >> they read about it in the newspaper. >> listen, can we work till we're 70 years old. can we take lower-- ultimately it's the american public that's going to have the debt. >> neil: when we come back, did any of you see this? i know you think they're going wild in los angeles for their stanley cup champion kings. you're wrong on this. l.a., all of that matter losing control because of our move to prime time at fbn. some of the people don't get fbn and you think feel their angst, but celebrate the fact that we are, a lot of people notice we're opposite of bill o'reilly and how could you compete with bill o'reilly? it's a big, big world, is bill o'reilly nervous?

of course not. 8 p.m. eastern time. up next, two men, two new pitches for jobs, but will either plan renew america's economy? we're on it. ys to tell people about saving money. this is bobby. say hello bobby. hello bobby. do you know you could save hundreds on car insurance over the phone, online or at your local geico office? tell us bobby, what would you do with all those savings? hire a better ventriloquist. your lips are moving. geico®. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.

>> hi, everyone, live from america's news headquarters, i'm jamie colby. there are new reports this morning of raging flames in colorado and so far destroyed more than 100 homes. 52,000 acres are burned and firefighters from around the country are trying to help put out the flames. as of right now they've only contained about 20%. thousands of people have been ordered out of their homes and fire crews warn it could be weeks before the flames are completely extinguished. the japanese government approving the start of nuclear reactors shut down by the deadly earthquake and tsunami, the first to come back online following the fukushima crisis, the worst adisaster

since chernobyl. they're deeply divided over the power there. and i'll send you back to cavuto on business and more headlines 30 minutes away and at foxnews.com. >> let's double down on a clean energy industry that has never been more promising. we also have to invest more in education and training. >> now is the time to rebuild america. >> i will finally get america on track to have a balanced budget and we will limit the size of government. >> neil: there you have it two very different visions for the economy. president obama calling for more spending and mitt romney calling on washington to simply stop the spending. charles, i think it pretty much sums it up. the election is more or less government. >> more or less government and more or less accountability for individuals. that's another thing this year. government will do it all. they have the power. you can't do it, you can't think of the microwave, can't come up with the internet, let

government take care of everything for you, we're going to make it work. i know it hasn't worked in the last three and a half years, give it more time. >> neil: stephen you have more trust in government than that, right? >> i guess so. i mean, you know, i don't know. you know, the problem is that we're trying to do too many of the wrong things at the same time. there is a time to cut spending. it probably comes later. right now is not the time to be, you know, getting rid of the teachers, and kiting big infrastructure projects, it's probably the right thing to be spending money on. yes, eventually we should be working toward a balanced budget. i think we should be spending more now. it's just about timing. and you know-- >> i like this, and like with the diet off for another decade. so, touche'. dagen, what do you make of this. >> maybe not a decade, a couple of years. >> and since that what, 900 billion dollar stimulus project worked so well. >> it was half the size it

should have been. >> okay, we wouldn't have to worry about the mushrooming deficit and debt at the same time. >> take a look at europe. >> and about president obama is standing there saying-- >> i'm sorry, you didn't say take a look at europe, you didn't say that. >> they're back there cutting back like crazy sending themselves into a recession. >> neil: go ahead. >> that's a debt problem and i can't borrow any more money have to pie sky high interest rates, that's too much borrowing, not, not enough spending. >> what do you think of it? >> i think the solution is to our economic problems, more people working at dmv, seriously, that's what the government, that's what president obama said last week. the problem with the economic, with our economy, unemployment-- >> and faster, at least if we're going to do it, give me better service. >> he really said if we hired more government, government workers, we would solve our economic problem, that's what he believes. >> neil: by the way, that was one of the things that was the most disappointing. every one of his comments when i said the private sector is

doing fine, but-- it was a slip, i'm going to give him that. but the notion that he regretted the decline in public hiring, in other words, in public workers, that was a little unsettling. and the whole thing is incredibly unsettling, we're in a box here. we've spent too much for many, many years, we've got to cut spending, but during a very weak economy is not the time to cut spending. well, what is the time to cut spending? because as prime minister just recently said, this recession could last ten years, so, when do we cut spending and are we finding ourselves waking up with such an enormous amount of debt and go into default and recession that losses for 12 years? we're in a terrible situation, i would like something charles payne mentions, individual responsibility. individual responsibility may have a certain role here, people may have to step up to be more responsible as being individuals. >> ben, i think you hit it on the head or maybe dagen, i can't remember.

the markets are going to make us, are going to hold us accountable at some points. >> i said. >> and the markets are holding europe responsible right now. by the way, europe would like to-- >> the markets keep giving them a pass. >> they're not giving them now. they can't pay the interest rates or people won't buy their debt. the u.s.-- >> we're going to get into the europe thing, but do you think-- charles, is that worrisome sign here. >> there's enough money without printing or more debt. there's enough money in the koovrs, everyone's retrenched except the government. if we would let them bring the money back off shore we would stop threatening and let people invest in the country, and we'd take off like a rocket. >> neil: not everyone is retrenching. my wife is not retrenching. need more people like my wife and we'll be fine. and the gang from forbes says better no deal than what these guys are cooking up. they're going to explain only as they can at the top of the

hour. and just to keep china over america as the number one economic power, maybe they do it without our rescue money, too? then what? [ male announcer ] at scottrade, we believe the more you know, the better you trade. so we have ongoing webinars and interactive learning, plus, in-branch seminars at over 500 locations, where our dedicated support teams help you know more so your money can do more. [ rodger ] at scottrade, seven dollar trades are just the start. our teams have the information you want when you need it. it's anothereason more investors are saying... [ all ] i'm with scottrade.

>> coming up, they he say we're number two. but china number one. they're still begging for our dollars to

>> call it the china ahead of u.s. as power. this is coming as greece is getting set to vote on a government wholesale environment we're probably

going to pay, too, if the world says that china is the powerhouse, let them pay. >> listen, i'm not mad at the europeans for thinking china has their act together. >> mad at europeans for being european. >> listen, when the grand bargain is done, and the scheme is done. >> they may be going now. >> i think you're right. >> and they know they're going to get money from us and that the fed is going to print money and imf. who is the the biggest contributor to the imf, we are. if you have such a high opinion of them, lean on, let them help you bail out sometimes. >> it's not true, dagen. by any economic measure they might be moving very fast, but a long way from us. >> correct, but they are growing so rapidly. >> the world intermperatures that they're the new "it", they're communist, if you live in europe you're going to love some communists. i'm not going to worry about it, i think back to japan and we were so worried about the power of japan and that

country's for the most part's been in a recession. >> we can't get cocky about it. >> he we can't, but they have low incomes in china and they also are losing a lot of their mo-jo, which is low wages. as long as we keep the american spirit of drive and power and being-- >> that's the one problem and i have family in new york, there is no entrepreneurial spirit. this is' no-- when was the last italian entrepreneurial, berlusconi. >> in italy it's the mob. >> the biggest business there. >> and point one thing out china has a lousy accounting system and you don't know what you're going to get. >> you don't know if all is appears to be. >> stephen, is that a sad commentary on us? >> everything is a sad commentary on us. >> getting along with weekend. (laughter) >> and feel in a good mood kind of guy. >> good to know. >> ben stein, what do you make of this. >> shows people don't know what's going on. we are ne an enormously bigger

economy than china, per capita basis, five or six times more than china and yes, i think they're going to get money from us, money from china, too, if the world thinks that china is the number one economic power, they're extremely mistaken, it's just, they're comically mistaken. >> only need to remember two words "we rock"! >> this is the point of the show i'd like to say goodbye to dagen and to charlie. (laughter) >> and well, investors are putting billions out of american stocks, he when the panel says it's time to buy, not bad. 

syndrome. and the gang is running to the green with the red, white and blue name. >> it is a short term and love a long term . and they are going to rock. >> wow, home builders, what do you make of that? >> toll brothers is the housing builder to own.

it is no way, too expensive. >> what are you doing? >> approximate microsoft, dividends have doubled over the last four years. and i think you hold it for a long while you will earn a lot of income. >> you can get it out and done. >> ben, what do you make of that. >> we have hoped for a turn around in the microsoft stock. i don't know. if is a hope and a prayer with microsoft. they are a great company but to consider them a growth stock not a great idea. >> what do you like right now. >> washington real estate investors that is a favorite.

highly recommended. that thank you. guys. stay tubed for forbes on fox. >> dc compromise push that could put taxpayers in a compromising decision. influential senators are in secret talks for a budget deal. it might repeat history with tax hikes up front and spending cuts promised down the road. someone said no deal would be better than that kind of deal . welcome to forbes on fox. we'll go in foxus with mr. forbes himself x. liz o'donald and rick unger. no compromise better than a compromise. >> preposterous proposition. and david, this is how you drag the company down. look at europe. not much in reducing will spending. it is