good it see you. that's all the time we have left. thank you for being with us. let not your heart be troubled. greta's next. see you tomorrow night. >> the white house is stuck on defense. >> you know that's not what this is about. if you look at what he said, he's talking about wall street reform. >> then one democratic group is attacking former navy seals, saying they don't have guts... for criticizing the president over the intelligence league. one small business owner has a message for president obama. and the president is not going to like his message. but first, vice-presidential candidate paul ryan is ready for battle, taking the medicare debate head on. >> the president was talking about medicare yesterday.

i am excited about this. this is a debate we want to have. this is a debate we need to have. and this is a debate we are going to win. what he probably did not mention yesterday is that when he passed his signature health care achievement, obamacare, he raided $716 billion from medicare to pay for obamacare. [boos from crowd]. >> this will lead to fewer services for seniors. president obama's campaign call this is an achievement. you think raiding medicare to pay for obamacare is an achievement? >> no! >> neither do i. >> caller: which side is winning so far? is the war either one wants to fight now? karl rove is here. >> nice to see you. >> karl, typically, the medicare war has been one the democrats have wanted to wage. wall street journal, your op-ed suggesting the contrary. >> they like waging this in the closing moments of the campaign,

to scare seniors. so the republican, better to have the argument now, when it's out in the open, plenty of time for people to digest the information t. starts with this. this is a cbo letter, sent on july 24 to the leadership of the house, a study by the cbo and the joint economic committee. i noticed the president and his people denied that they cut medicare. yet, here it is, page number 13 fwe repeal obamacare, repealing these provisions would increase spending for medicare over the next decade by $716 billion. he cut medicare, raided medicare in order to pay for obamacare, medicare has no money to spare. it is going broke. the trustees of the medicare system said in april of this year, by 2024, the hospital portion of medicare is going to be bellyup. it will run through its trust fund and the cash it has and it will not be able to pay the full benefits do due. a cut in the quarter of the size of benefits for people who need

medicare benefits at the hospital. >> i don't know one person who doesn't think medicare's in deep trouble i. except the president of the united states. >> historically. one of the issues is that it is so easy to get down in the weeds, as to what the different programs. i think it's very confusing. tell me if i am correct, i have tried to go through the ryan plan and see if i'm right. number 1, first of all texcludes people over the age of 55. ryan's plan has nothing to do with those people. >> no changes for you, whatsoever. >> if you are under the age of 55, you have two choices, you can keep the traditional medicare, just like those over the 55, or you can go to the subsidy from the government to buy private. is that right? >> right. it's called premium support. you get to choose the insurance policy that meets your needs or keep the policy you have. i have a health savings account. why am i going to be forced to give that up? i am building up a nice balance. kihave a low premium and get a policy at the age of 65 that

meets my needs. why am i forced to give that up? premium support would allow to you pick an insurance policy that you think meets your needs and gives you access to the right health networks that you may be using. >> for the life of me, i can't understand why this is such a wildly electrifying political weapon on both sides. i went to senator widen, a democrat who had a proposal with governor -- with congressman ryan a year ago. what they both joined in writing in the beginning, democrat and republican is that reform is now essential to shinsure that medicare will remain a guaranteed, affordable life line for seniors and taxpayers for decades to come. so both a in the and a running, including paul ryan, they want to make sure medicare is -- is there for everybody. yet, this has electrified everybody. we are down in the weeds and we are mean special nasty. >> we are not down in the weeds. the vice-president said the republicans want to gut medicare, by cutting spending.

if you take a look at the republican house budget plan, which is the cheapskate of all budget plans out there, today, we are spending $503 billion on medicare. it calls for a spending of $855 billion on medicare, 10 years from now. that's 3% less than president obama proposes. so if spending 3% less is gutting medicare, i just justin acri don't get it. the president himself refuses to engage on the substance. you may not know this -- your viewers may not know this, there is a statutory responsibility for the president of the united states to present a plan, if the actuaries say, over the next phene 15 years, medicare is going to go belly up, if it is going to fall out of fiscal balance, the president is obligated within 15 days after we release our annual report and if we say this, he giobligated within 15 days to present a plan to congress. he said that in april of 2009,

april of 2010 and april of 2011 and april of 2012. in no instance did the president of the united states meet his statutory responsibility to present a plan to restore fiscal responsibility to the system. he ignored. it how he can get away with it, i don't understand. when they say this is going belly up, he is obligated to present a plan to congress. congress is not required to vote on it, but he is ogobligated to present a plan. >> it's a horrible, ugly fight. it's very important to the american people that people be fair and straight and not just scare everybody. but anyway, now to vice-president biden's remark about chains. jay carney is still trying to explain it away. >> what do you say to republicans who say that the vice-president's comments about putting people back in chains is an example of why he should be replaced on the ticket? >> well, i say a couple of things. one is... they know that... what

they are saying about this is ridiculous. >> does he regret the choice of words? some took it as a reference to slavery -- >> nobody took it as a reference to anything except for those who are trying to make something out of nothing here and distract attention from the policy debates. >> so, karl, what do you think about the vice-president's comments? bad choice of words or something else? in other words, is this a mistake or a deliberate use of code words and how do we know? >> first of all, i think it is a deliberate attempt to play on racial fears. remember, he is in danville, virginia, when he makes these comments. this is a part of virginia called the south side, histeddorically african-american-dominated part of the state, where there were plantations and large numbers of slaves working tobacco and cotton plantations. danville itself has more african-american citizens than anglos. the audience was filled with african-americans. the city itself was the site of

a famous civil rights demonstrations in 1963 that drew martin luther king. the vice-president said three things that are important. and he said, they are going to put you, y'all back in chains. he didn't say us. he was pointing to the republicans, saying they. he said y'all. he's from delaware -- they may say that in south texas and southern alabama, but when you start saying y'all you are pulling people from the crowd special talking to them. he didn't say we -- we will be back in chains. he pointed to the audience, substantially african-american and said y'all and you will be back in chains. you know, there is no doubt in my mind that this was a racially tinged remark. governor wilder, the first african-american governor in the south since reconstruction, i think hit it right on the -- on the -- on the head. this was a racially insensitive remark. it was an attempt to play the

race card and the vice-president of the united states should be embarrassed. now, the president and his people -- you will notice, jay carney didn't deal with the question. he said, everybody knows he was talk about this banks. well, he wasn't talking about the banks. he was saying they will put you back in chains, to an african-american audience. he was calling the republicans the equivalent of simon legree in a racially charged remark, suggesting that they were slave owners and would put african-americans back in that i chains. shame on the vice-president. i'm embarrassed for jay carney. this is the last -- you know, sort of refuse, last defense of a white house press secretary to say, don't believe your lying ears, listen to what i am saying. >> well, you know, look, it's very easy to be sloppy in your choice of words. it's very easy. i did look to see if anyone, either the vice-president or -- or jay carney or the president or anybody else said, boy, that was a bad choice of words and a bad situation. but nobody has attempted to walk

it back at all -- >> well, look, the white house hasn't, the campaign sent out stephanie cutter to say, we see nothing wrong with t. but the president in an interview, broadcast today, first of all, did defend it, saying it was a substantive argument. no it wasn't -- >> that's not walking it back. >> but he said, quote, his, referring to joe biden phrasing is a distraction from what is at stake. he said it's a distraction from what is at stake. the white house and the campaign would have been been better off and joe biden would have been better off to say, i'm sorry, the point i was trying to make is that we can't afford to undo the regulations of the banks. i used unfortunate words. but they for so stubborn, they make a racially charged remark and they like having it played again and again and again in the media. you know, they are saying, okay, look, fine. joe made a comment, stir up the base. let's keep stirring it up. >> to the other controversy over

a media campaign launched by former navy seals. the former navy seals are furious at president obam a. last night, a member of the special operations group went "on the record" about their mission. >> we are hoping that this will form the basis for a -- an operation by us to try to stop these leaks from occurring. we want to become like a watchdog organization over this administration and any subsequent administrations. this stuff has to stop. this is jeopardizing operations, future operations and putting our special forces at risk, their lives at risk. this is big stuff. this is not... petty ante stuff. >> but today, a member of the democratic group, media matters, attacking the navy seals, tweeting, former navy seals don't have guts to admit they are running a g.o.p., anti-obama campaign. of course, that sparked a response from another of the group's former seals.

he said, we are clearly not gutless. we are in the public right now, completely out there. karl? >> i know a lot of people in our special operations community. these are the elite. these people have made enormous sacrifices for our country. they are the tip of the spear. they are the best of the best. and whether you agree with them or not, they're due a healthy aim of respect. eric boletter, you know, went way over the top. i noticed he did it in a tweet d not to any one of their faces. first of all, i haven't met him, but he wrote a book called lap dogs, how the media rolled over for bush. he must have been living in a different reality than i saw. there have been leaks out of the administration of sources and methods and operational details that are going to put our operators at risk. i know some of these people who near seal team 6. they are not happy with being picked out of the crowd. they are worried about their families and their own futures.

this is a real problem. and anybody who served in our special operations, whether it's the seals or the rangers or delta or you name it, deserves whether you agree with them or not, a healthy amount of respect. this was completely disrespectful. >> of all words to describe a navy seal, gutless is probably the last day. >> and on this day, when two navy seals were killed in afghanistan. >> i think it is almost the anniversary of 22 navy seals were killed about a year ago in a deadly crash. i mean, but gutless?! i mean -- these are the most -- these are the bravest, most courageous, they do everything the rest of us are not doing and don't want to do. >> i would say mr. bolert is brainless for having called him gutless. >> this would be a nice time for him to get out front and apologize for this. you know, obviously, it's the last thing we want to do is insult our navy seals. okay, turning to the campaign... any bounce out of the choice of

congressman ryan. >> traditionally, there is a modest bounce when you choose a vice-presidential nominee. it dwindles away. the vice-president matters more to what people's perceptions are of the presidential candidate. and this will help mitt romney over the long haul. he has clearly signaled he intends to make the campaign about deficits and debt and spending and putting our fiscal house in order and a pro-growth economic policy and he has one of the most passionate and effective adrocates for reform of -- advocates for reform of our entitlement and budget system and pro-growth policies in the entire u.s. house of representatives with paul ryan. this is a bold move. it will have a minor impact. it's hard to measure the bounce. but bounces are small and transitory. what really matters is the trajectory of the ticket and this will help the trajectory of the ticket. >> let me ask you a curve ball. i hate to ask you about the impact on politics. but israel, we don't know what

israel's going to do. suppose israel were to take military action against iran. i hate to be more concerned with the war aspect of it but it does have some impact on politics back home. >> traditionally, when we have national security crisis in an election, there is a rally around the flag effect, where people say, regardless of my party and my affiliation, it's time to stand with our president. if there was a military action between now and november, in all likelihood, people would rally around the president and president obama would benefit in the polls. i don't think, though, as you say, i agree with you. i don't think the israelis or the united states are calculating their attitudes towards iran, particularly, the israelis are not calculating it with an eye to the american election. >> it seems that the clock is running out and we are watching to see what they are doing and the unknown. >> look, we don't know, you know, publicly, we don't know -- i assume somebody in the intelligence community, i hope somebody in the israeli intelligence service understands

this material is being prepared at several see theesarn the country. at some time, it will have to be brought to a central site to be machined into a weapon or weapons and that's the moment of vulnerability. if you strike before the material's brought together, you will only get part of it. they have to wait until it's brought together. hopefully someone knows where and when and if the israelis need to strike, that's the moment to strike. >> thank you. >> you bet. a small business owner is taking on the president of the united states. why is he so steamed at president obama? it's something have you to see for yourself. you will. that's next. is wall street getting away with economic murder? the former special inspector general of t.a.r.p. says yes. why? here's a hint. it has to do with the investigation of m.f. global and former senator jon corzine. a zinger in the vice-presidential showdown. joe biden makes a gaffe and paul ryan has some fun with it.

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>> greta: small business owners are fighting tooth and nail. many continue to barbecue president obama for these statements. >> if you are successful, somebody along the lines gave

smuhelp. there was a great teacher somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed to you thrive. somebody invested in roads and bridges. if you have a business, that -- you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> greta: georgia lumberyard owner is making sure everyone can see his anger with the president, posting a sign, saying, i fwhlt business without government help. obama can kiss my expletive. why such a fierce response? good evening and tell me, why such a fierce response with that sign? >> good evening, greta. greetings from the sunny south. well, when you hear that, like i say, it's just an outrage, what president obama said. anybody that ever started or built a business has to be insulted by those remarks. the amount of sacrifice, the hard work, the toil, the

sacrifices that we make in small business is just amazing. and then fwe are able to survive. so for the president to get up there and basically knock business the way he did, like i say, it was an insult. i felt that he needed an answer back in a language that he would understand. that's why i had those banners made. >> greta: we talk so often about people who are unemployed or under-employed. i am curious, your company at one time in 2007 or so, had 85 employees, now it's down to 30 employees. so you are down about 50. i am curious how difficult it is for a small business owner to layoff people and to cut their pay? >> i don't think -- unless someone was walking in my shoes and had to go through the hardship and pain to tell good people, solid citizens that were doing a good job because the business was drying up and especially on our sector, the housing sector is the hardest

hit and still is the hardest hit in this recession we have been going through -- and to tell them that we didn't have a pog for them or to send them home and tell them they were laid off was a tough, tough part. you know, me and my managers, some of the toughest decisions we have had to make. when you are successful, you can -- you are celebrating and you share the joys and the things that you do. but when things turn bad on you, it is really tough because most of your employees are like family. you get to know them and their families. and part of, you know, of doing a business is to grow it. when you start sclimpging back and having to cut back the way that we have had to the last three or four years, it's been horrible. there is a lot of pain and suffering out there, which people still don't seem to understand, unless you are affected by it. >> greta: you are mad enough to put up a sign for the president about his insensitive remark about building a business.

i am curious, do you blame him for the economy not going faster, to recover from the recession in. >> i think he is public for a lot of that. you know, when he came out with his stimulus program, he said things to the effect that -- we will have unemployment below 8% and if not, i shouldn't be re-elected. i think a lot of that initial stimulus, if you could write a book and put down all the ting things not to do, those are the things that he d. he went out and supported other government entities, went out into this -- on this tangent on solar energy and things, where he is taking care of his friends and people who patronize him and his party. to what avail? nothing has come out of that. that's a bunch of money, you might say, walking around money that he has had, and it hasn't done anything that has helped the economy recover.

>> greta: no regrets for your sign? >> no, i don't. if anything, it is starting to pick up in other areas. we put up a -- a web site that shipping signs to 20 other states. so they are starting to pop up. the sign was not only to answer what the president said about if you had a business, you didn't do that, somebody else did. not only to answer that, but to get other businesses to stand up, the short-sightedness from washington, d.c. and mainly out of the white house and let them know that we are not enough. we are not part of the problem. we're part of the solution. if the american economy is going to recover and it is starting to recover, tell take a lot of small businesses growing and getting bigger and a lot of hard work on our part to make it work. >> greta: ray, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> -- >> greta: coming up, is wall street getting away with economic murder isn't special

inspector of t.a.r.p. says yes. what does he mean by that? he will tell you next. and congressman paul ryan, poking fun at joe biden's gaffe. but not the one you think. you will hear what they both said, coming up. ♪ ♪ three, six, nine ♪ the goose dra wine ♪ the monkey chew tobacco on the streetcar line ♪ ♪ ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ pat it on your partner's hand ♪ ♪ right hand ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ cross it wi your left arm ♪ pat your partner's left palm ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand, pat your partner's right palm ♪ [ male announcer ] it's back. the volkswagen beetle. that's the power of german engineering. you want to make sure it goes up and stays up. [ chirp ] with android apps, you get better quality control. so our test flights are less stressful. i've got a lot of paperwork, and time is everything here. that's why i upgraded to the new sprint direct connect. [ chirp ] and the fastest push-to-talk nationwide.

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and it's also why, with our partner in brazil, shell is producing ethanol - a biofuel made from renewable sugarcane. >>a minute, mom! let's broaden the world's energy mix. let's go. >> greta: brace yourself a billion dollars in customer money disappears. sounds like something fishy at m.f. global. right? none of the top executives will

face any criminal charge, including the former ceo, former senator and new jersey governor, jon corzine. what's up with this? no crime? or something else? do you wonder why financial executives in general rarely face prosecution? we have the special inspector general on t.a.r.p. and the author of bailout, government officials going on extremes to serve wall street, often at your expense. >> thank you for having me. >> greta: before the viewers will note, you have had a long history as a federal prosecutor before you came to washington before the special inspector of t.a.r.p., before reading your book, what caught my intention was your frustration with the justice department's ability to investigate these crimes. is that -- is that a fair assessment what have you said? >> yes. you know, here with m.f. global, i was a prosecutor, in charge of the prosecution of the predecessor, revco, from which

this group m.f. global emerged. back then, they were committing a similar maser, it was fraud and crime, stealing customer money for use by the company. >> greta: in this -- what you know with m.f. global, what were they doing that is escaping, apparently, any criminal charges. >> they did a major no-no. they dipped into segregated customer funds, which are supposed to be kept separate and not to be touched for general corporate purposes. it appears that there was a run on the bank because a very risky bet that corzine had made at the parent company level. they dipped into that customer money, which they weren't supposed to do to cover the bets out of the bank. when the music stopped, there was an enormous cash shortfall. and these customers, again, who are supposed to be protected under the law, were left with pennies on the dollar, 70, 80 cents, huge losses as a result. >> greta: all right. let's put this in other terms.

i was a criminal defense attorney. if you handed me your wallet and said, hold it and i said, sure. you leave the room and i think, you know what? i need a little extra for my rent because i am short this month, i dip into your wallet and take the rent. that's stealing, right? >> absolutely. that's a good comparison to what happened here. greta: well, so -- i mean fsomeone dips into segregated customer funds. that seems like really nice language for taking something that doesn't belong to you that you have no authority to use. why isn't that a crime? why isn't that prosecuted? >> the defense that has been advanced, and jon corzine testified a couple of times in front of congress and it appears to be accepted by the department of justice that it was a fog of war. there was toe so much chaos in the bank and so much money from one account, into another, that they just didn't realize that they had taken about a billion of customer funds.

and that was -- that was the defense, it seemed laughable when it was advanced, but it appears at this point that the department of justice investigation, they have not been audible to put that knowledge in jon corzine and the other senior executives' mines that they were violating the rules -- sorry. >> greta: go ahead? >> what is striking is that among the evidence that came out, there was real evidence that a lot of red flags being flown. there was within the company, outside of the company, the bank was confronting corvine say -- corzine, saying are you sure? so i think that we were going to see a case that was ripe for criminal prosecution. but it appears it is not going to happen. yet again tseems like wall street, having done incredibly unethical behavior will walk away with bonuses intact, while farmers and the greater country lays as a victim. >> greta: well, this to me --

this will be the legacy of this justice department, with the attorney general, eric holder. i understand the concept, fog of war. but in my example to you, if i had a lot of pressure, my landlord's calling my, i have other bills, i am confused. i am not sure-- the fog of war twould be so unconvincing on a crime like that. i have a hard time understanding, even if senator jon corzine wasn't aware of it, somebody did dip into the fund and knew. someone must have known, even if it wasn't governor corzine -- somebody did. >> they're still talking about possible case against lower-level employees who were directly responsible. but i agree. fairly or unfairly, even if this is the right decision, it is a continuing black mark on the legacy of eric holder and the justice department. you can't view this other than through the prism and the absence of other wall street cases, after big announcems of tax forces in wen 09 and this

year. i think there is a real credibility crisis with the department of justice right now. >> greta: of course, the people who lost the money, in these billion -- many of theme their lives, if they are ruined, but certainly, they are changed, whether they were saving money for college for kids or whatever. anyway, another black market. thank you. >> thank you. >> greta: coming up, democratic congressman chris van hollen says paul ryan is passionate about his views, sounds good, right? not so far fast. in 2 minutes, the next round in the v.p. battle, congressman ryan takes a jab against joe biden.

[ "human" by the human league playing ] humans. we mean well, but we're imperfect creatures living in a beautifully imperfect world. it's amazing we've made it this far. maybe it's because when one of us messes up, someone else comes along to help out. that's the thing about humans. when things are at their worst, we're at our best. see how at libertymutu.com. liberty mutual insurance -- responsibility. what's your policy? >> greta: oops, he did it again. vice-president biden making another gaffe and paul ryan is having some fun with it. what did vice-president biden

say this time? >> with you, i mean this, with you, we can win north carolina. yes! and if we do, we win the election, if we win you. >> god bless you all. >> there is one problem. the vice-president was in virginia. today, congressman ryan on the campaign trail, having a little fun with his opponent. he zinged him. >> it is great to be here in north canton, or as joe biden might say, it's great to be here in nevada! >> greta: congressman ryan is know the first one to poke fun of vice-president biden. was paul ryan mean or just having a little fun? go to gretawire and tell us. back in 2.

>> live from america's news headquarters, i'm craig boswell. united nations security council is ending its observer mission in sirria.

the last of the monitors heads home this weekend. 300 unarmed observers arrived 3 months ago, as part of a peace plan, brokered by outgoing envoy, kofi annan. they were supposed to monitor, but it never happened. the security council voted to set up a smaller liaison office instead. firefighters are working around the clock, trying to contain dozens of wildfires out west. the worst one in idaho, threatening two rural towns. in washington state, some people are allowed back into their homes. crews there have gained the upper hand on a fire east of seattle, but not before it destroyed nearly 70 homes. back to "on the record." for all of your headlines, go to foxnews.com. you are watching the most powerful name in news. >> greta:e paul ryan is known for his conservative ideas, especially with the budget. but can pea he peel off any democratic votes.

chris von hallen knows paul ryan. they worked together on the budget committee. congressman, nice to see you, sir. >> good to be back. >> greta: i know you have very deep divisions with the republican party and with congressman ryan as well. you were the romping member of the house budget committee, is that right? >> that's right. >> greta: before we get into the weeds of the differences, i am curious, have you worked with him closely. is he a man who you can work with, negotiate, talk to? >> well, let's take them one at a time. i get along very well with paul, personally. yes, we can talk on different issues. as you know, we have, but we also, as you said, disagree very deeply on the policy issues. we have very fierce, but always civil debates. when it comes to negotiation, i have to say, if you look at paul's budget, the ryan budget, it's an uncompromising document.

every one of the democratic amendments we offered that went to a roll call vote were rejected. paul is passionate about what he believes. and he is as mitt romney said, the ideological leader of the republicans. and in the house, that means in some ways, that budget's become the tea party manifesto, it is not a compromising document. it's uncompromising. >> greta: but is he the kind of member -- i assume there is a whole array, who draws the line in the sand and it's my way or no way i'm the chairman. or does he say, here's my idea. i really think mine is right. but let me hear what you have to say. but i will agree to think about what you have to say. >> he is willing to hear what other people have to say. we on the democratic side in the house, we offered a full alternative budget. we didn't get any support from the republicans or from paul.

but obviously, they were willing to listen. but there is a big difference between a willingness to listen, a willingness to engage in civil discussion and a willingness to compromise -- >> greta: were you being humored or do you think you are being humored with your idea or do you think he was genuinely interested in what have you to say? >> i think he was interested in what we have to say. i think he is so fixed on his own views -- and passionate about his own views -- that in some ways, it has, i think, blinded him to the facts on the other side. but, look, again, i think the good news for the country is that we have civil debates. i think the bad news from my perspective is that if we were to adopt the ryan/romney plan, i do believe ift would be very bad for the country. but that's what this election is about. it's a choice. and i think by putting paul ryan

on the ticket, mitt romney has sharpened that choice. >> greta: all right. you say the ryan/romney plan. that's what i hear from the democrats. i feel a little gamed by that description, like i feel gamed by the republicans who refer to as a ryan -- [inaudible] plan. do you agree it's the paul ryan plan and governor romney has -- one time said he would adopt it but he has put out a different plan. there are some thingsly likes, but some things are different, but there is a separate mitt romney plan. >> one is the overall ryan budget plan, his plan for the economy. mitt romney said the other day that they were virtually on the same page. those are mitt romney's words. with respect to the medicare plan, mitt romney just the other day said when it kaim came to the medicare plan, they are virtually identical. both of them, i should stress save moan, not by reducing the

costs in med character but by transferring the costs onto seniors and those plans would both give seniors on medicare, greta, a much worse deal than congress has for themselves, they would put seniors in much greater financial risk than the plans of members of congress. >> greta: i went back through and there are some differences between the so-called ryan plan and the romney plan. there are a few differences. but let me ask you, if there is one thing you could identify in the ryan budget that is the easiest, cleanest description of how different your idea is from congressman ryan, what is it? >> at the heart of the ryan plan is this idea that we should give another round of windfall tax breaks to folks at the very high end of the income ladder. they don't ask for one more penny from the wealthiest americans to reduce the deficit.

so if you ask nothing from folksa the top can and you want to reduce the deficit, it means you wack everybody else in the process. it hurts senior, it will require seniors to pay much higher costs. and it means lower investment in kids' education and on their tax plan -- this has been verified by the independent tax policy center, which mitt romney described as an authority eightive source, they would raise taxes on middle income taxpayers to finance additional tax cuts for folks at the very top. as opposed to the president's plan, if you look at his budget, it's a much more balanced approach t. has cuts, but it asks folks at the top to share more responsibility. erskine bowles just wrote recently that the president's plan is much closer to the principle of simpson-bowles, than the romney plan. >> greta: i suppose you have seen the video passed around, where erskine bowles is praising, last august, paul ryan

and his budget plan and his ernest -- i don't know -- that he wants to fix things. >> what erskine dhe praised paul ryan as a person of integrity. he did want praise his budget plan. i think anyone should ask erskine today that question -- in fact, erskine bowles and allen simpson issued a statement about the ryan plan and said it lacked the balance that was at the heart of simpson-bowles and they have said that the president's plan has that kind of balance and mitt romney's plan does not. that's hathey have said as recently as a few weeks ago. what a republican might say and what governor romney and representative paul ryan might say is that they got cory bookerred, to use the expression when they want to back down and they make reference to senator widen who, embraced much of bipartisan agreement with congressman ryan and he is backing down.

>> i don't think erskine bowles is backing down. he said that he thought he was a man of integrity -- >> greta: no, no. on the -- what i understood from erskine bowles, now we are really into the weeds and there is a lot of fighting back and forth, is that he thought he was someone people should listen to, congressman ryan. and he was not endorsing everything, but he thought it was encouraging because he was a man who had some ideas worth looking at. >> look, everybody should listen to everybody else. but i think if you go back and look at the full erskine bowles tape, he said thee thought paul ryan was a person of integrity, but he had serious problems with the ryan plan. and they issued a statement, i mean, they issued a formal statement saying the plan lacked the balance.

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