we have not had this kind of global recession since the end of world war ii. what you have is three or four billion people in the manufacturing world, two billion in china and one billion in india, they are adding to the production and capacity. it is keeping a real pressure, downward pressure on everything that is going on. >> sean: thanks for being with us. greta is next. >> greta: tonight is rush limbaugh at the end of his rope with president obama? >> you saw obamacare under what we know we're going to get more obama, more debt and more spending. the expansion of the welfare state, how long can this go on? >> greta: much more from rush limbaugh and white house blows up a major deadline, is he too busy to campaigning $109 billion in budget cuts it could

devastate the defense department and darrell issa is also here. but rush limb law sends a new warning about re-elected go president obama. >> how long does this country have until obama wins. we are headed toward an economic collapse. we are the leader of the world. when it happens to us, there are reverberations all over the world. it's not like some podunk little country collapsing that goes to another relatively podunk country for a bailout. when we collapse, worldwide reverberations. how long is it going to take in i'm asking a serious question. 18 months? you saw obamacare under what we know what we're going to get

more from obama, more debt and more spending. the expansion of the welfare state, more -- how long can this go on. >> greta: on top of that, high unemployment. the rated may have inched downward to 8.1% but analysts say people have given up looking for jobs. kelly joins us. do you agree with rush limbaugh we are headed toward economic collapse? >> i have confidence in the american people that leadership matters. i am deeply worried if the president gets 'four more years. look at the jobs report. we are still over 8% unemployment. for every one job we have added, four people have left the work force. it's the lowest since 1981. over 43 months of straight unemployment, then the debt. this president has added $5

trillion in debt and frankly our country can't take it. what he had to say about obamacare, i heard it from employers in my state, they are not adding jobs because of obamacare. we are in deep trouble of four more years of these policies. >> greta: going back, we had the situation with china. china and i picked out the statistics for your state, your state has lost 20,400 jobs going to china. that is 2.9% of your total number of jobs. however, on the good side, new hampshire's unemployment is 5.4%. we're all jealous? >> we're glad to have that. we usually have a lower unemployment rate. one thing i sake about the report about china is that we have a competitiveness issue in this country. in fact when the presidential came into office we were number one in terms of global

competitiveness, now we are ranked seventh by the economic forum. if i were to choose between cheating by china, we know that happens, or the policies of the obama administration in terms of why we lost more jobs, i would pick the policies of the obama administration. what did the president say last week? what did we hear from the dnc. we are not dealing with the highest corporate tax rate in the world and wanting to increase taxes on small businesses. many of them basically they are organized as subchapter ss and then the regulatory climate and there is so much red tape. >> greta: if your candidate is elected and let's assume he is a republican senate and republican house. he has a get-out-of-jail-free card. when would you expect the economy to turn around?

you are convinced the economy would turn around. americans are desperate. what do you expect to turn around in february if he is elected? >> if mitt romney is elected president that the market is going to go very quickly. but the first hundred days he is going to move away, we heard he'll issue an executive order on on obamacare. second he is going to deal with getting people together to come up with spending in washington because we can't continue with $15 trillion in debt. so much pressure on the regulatory end comes from executive branch agencies. putting the right people in place, instead of trying to strangle businesses, to try try to work with them, that will make a big difference. we can unleash our economy with those three things. >> greta: let's assume all that happens and let's assume that

none of this happens. are you still going to come back and tell us give us another four more years, if all this magic, all these things you say don't work? >> i have confidence that one term of a president romney is going to bring us forward significantly that we are going to see our economy unleashed compared to the last four years of this president. again, we have gone from first to competitiveness to seventh and seen unemployment rate over 8%. i know president romney will have the ideas and experience of how to get people working. >> greta: senator, nice to see you. >> so lindsay graham says our commander in chief is not looking out for our troops. why is he saying that? they blew off a key deadline, failing to report on how it would cut $109 billion in defense.

senator graham says our national security is at risk. we spoke with the senator a short time ago. >> senator, nice to see you, thank you for having me. >> greta: how angry or frustrated, whatever term you want to use, should the american people we are fighting over this sequestration, it's unresolved and lingering since the budget act of about 13 months ago? >> every american who believes that our national security is the most important thing we should deal with in washington first and foremost, every american who appreciates the service of those in uniform during the last decade should be furious that we have put the finest military at risk at the time we need it the most. >> greta: i did not see any seriousness of purpose on behalf of many people in government on this. if you go back to last august, the deal was, the super committee was supposed to make a

decision by november. if they couldn't get sequestration kicked in. there was nothing to prevent them from december, january, february, march, april, may, june, july, august, president signed the transparency act where he was supposed to employ by the 6th of september about sequestration. he blew off the deadline. i don't see any effort? >> commander in chief responsibility is to look out for those that fight the wars. he the is not looking out to them. to let it go forward is a huge blow to the men and women in uniform. to our intelligence services. who do you think all this information we get about iran and china and russia and taliban comes from? who do you think the drone programs come from? the intelligence community, make sure they understand what we are

talking about. super committees says $1.2 trillion in saving at a penalty clause for sequestration. if the super committee failed we are going to take half of this out of defense department. we have already cut $400 billion out of the defense department. leon panetta says we are shooting ourselves in the head. >> greta: even when the sequestration, when the deal was cut last august, nothing has been done, when does it occur. it occurs a month after the election, when everybody up in capitol hill, they have cover from the american people. nothing is fweeg done? >> here is the problem. if you are in the military you have to start it. congress demanded the administration what will be the effect on the military and intelligence committee if we do sequestration.

if you take $600 billion on top of what we have already done, you will have the smallest navy since 1915. 232 ships. you will have the small-e army since 1940 and smallest air force in history. it will devastate our defense industries that make these weapons and it starts in january. so i'm working with senator mccain and carl levin and handful of us are trying to put a proposal to delay sequestration. >> greta: when the president signed the transparency act in august, he put his name on. he said, you know what, i'm going to provide the information august 6th. it's meaningless to anybody. it's expected. >> i think it's coming friday. >> greta: the point is, it's always after the election. no one keeps his word. >> how about this. you have the house and senate

back after five weeks. >> greta: for eight days. >> you have made a good case sequestration is allowed to go forward it will throw the defense industry and military into chaos. >> greta: because no one is doing their job, that is the simple reason? >> john mccain and carl levin and myself are trying to put a proposal together to delay the effects for three months so the new congress in january doesn't have this hanging over their head. >> greta: i realize that. in the meantime, our debt grows, in the meantime, we're paying more interest on our debt. we get deeper into trouble. more everyone pushes it up. if people did their jobs. last november when it didn't work out, if anyone had the decency to say, okay, it didn't work out. let's try december. there was no impediment, none? >> do you see anything out of the house? do you see any proposal coming

from the house that democrats are in charge of. i mean republicans are in charge of trying to avoid sequestration. do you see anything in the democratic controlled senate? do you see the commander in chief instead of preaching to the congress we have to fix this before it starts, he is sitting on the side lines and allowing it to begin. the lame duck is the hope that somehow it will fix it before january of next year. >> greta: sha is what we're playing. >> i made my fair share of mistakes but when they put this idea if the super committee we would take $600 billion out of the of the defense department. what are you thinking. look at the iran. look at the world as it is. is now the time to disarm. take the capabilities off the table that we worked on for years? where did the party of ronald reagan go? >> greta: you and senator mccain

have endorsed a congressman from the california who is a democrat. is that going to hurt him or help him? >> he asked him, his name is howard burmin but he -- berman, but he believes iran is trying to develop a nuclear weapon. he stood by israel. he has been good on the war on terror. i think of all those that you name, debt, out of control tax code, mountains of debt. out of control spending, the biggest threat to our way of life, quite frankly, is the rise of radical islam and iran getting a nuclear weapon. that is going to happen sooner rather than later. what signals are we sending our enemies when we take our defense department and put it on the chopping block? what signals are we sending to the world to protect freedom? >> greta: so you are for democratic congressman berman? >> i think he will be good for

national security and god knows we are not talking about it enough. if it weren't for this program i don't think most people would know sequestration exists. >> greta: if you thought solyndra was stupid business decision with your money. get this. general motors is making a car that sells for less than it costs to build. that is right. they lose money on every car. so the question is, would you ever be silly to invest in a company to make such a dumb business decision? guess what, you did. taxpayer money, you bailed out gm. gm paid the money back but taxpayers still own a stake in gm. gerri willis joins us. tell us about that report. >> it's very controversial. they are saying that gm is losing 49,000 on every vote

slowly they sell. they had to mark them down. they put a lease price on these cars. so for $199 a month for two years, you get a lease on volt. spend $5050 for a car that cost $89,000 to build. sticker is $32,000. ultimately they are being forced to get rid of these things by discounting. people don't like these cars. they are expensive, they are expensive to run and typically bought by people who want to have the ability to say, hey, i bought the first hybrid plug-in designed by u.s. designers right here. at the end of the day, people are disappointed in this car for a lot of reasons. >> greta: i should read a statement, the estimate of the current loss per unit is grossly wrong in part because the development costs number of volts sold instead of lifetime

of the program which is how business operates. is this business investment that wo you would make with your own money? >> look if you are a private company under a want to gamble on having a successful product that maybe the world has never seen, fine. this isn't a private company. this is a public company. this is taxpayer company. this is government motors, not general motors. we gave them $50 billion and white house put in $5 billion in incentives. you get a tax break to buy one of these. at the end of the day, if you are a private company, sure. >> greta: this a good investment? >> not this investment, no. >> greta: that is what i mean. that is how i'm trying to determine if it's a good investment. to throw $35,000, private capital? >> look, i think they have made

a bunch of bad business decisions. they spent $1.2 billion to develop the product. in the end day it's not being accepted by the marketplace. they say in three years they will be making money on this. when you roll out a brand-new product at the time you are just coming out of bankruptcy. i think that is bad business decision. >> greta: in 20/20 hindsight was it a bad decision, looking back but at the time? >> well, you know the competitive situation was such that you had the prius coming out. that has been a very popular product. the reality as a consumer you can buy a cheaper car that gets better, i would say gases mileage. it's not really gas mileage, it's an electric car, but the cost of operating the car is lower. you can get a honda for $16,000. that car has gets you 35 on the highway. at the end of the day, it

doesn't make sense for consumers so it had to be a bad decision. >> greta: thank you, gerri. >> new development in the investigation to operation fast and furious, darrell issa is next and disturbing news out of pakistan the doctor that helped track down osama bin laden exposes the pakistani spy agency. is the u.s. in big danger? john bolton is here to talk about it. and caught on camera, you will see how potentially dangerous situation unfolded. stay tuned. at purina one, we believe small things can make a big difference. like how a little oil from here can be such a big thing in an old friend's life. we discovered that by blending enhanced botanical oils into our food, we can help brighten an old dog's mind

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>>. >> greta: operation fast and furious, some good news and some bad news. mexican police say they have arrested a second suspect in the murder of border patrol agent brian terry. and hearing on fast and furious has been postponed, why? the justice department's report is not ready. we spoke with darrell issa. nice to see you. >> good to be back. >> you expected a hearing tomorrow on fast and furious but it's not happening? >> we've been working with the

inspectors general and he has been getting push back from the justice he has additional edits and we want to get the final report. we've agreed and he committed he can get it done so we can have a hearing next wednesday which is what we want. >> greta: so the hearing tomorrow was on the inspector general's report which is not out. you put it off until it will be done? >> exactly. although it's been done since the middle of august. this is really about doj objecting to things that were in the report and asking to have them redacted. michael horowitz the ig doing what he needs to do to get a complete a report as possible. >> greta: i have a copy of two letters, one on the 5th of september and the 7th of september. what i thought was curious about this, he was laying out he can't give you the grand jury minutes.

that makes sense. documents under seal like wiretaps but one of the things i thought was interesting is delaying him, she giving the report to the department of justice. they are going to make a determination whether any information or report falls within the present assertion of executive privilege which you have held and congress has held and holder in contempt and fighting in court. now she making the decision with the i.g.? >> the i.g. did make a determination they were appropriate for his report. now, justice is trying to essentially redact those. remember, that is the cover-up lie to congress. they would like to have this to be about what went wrong in phoenix rather than how congress was lied to and how for ten months one story is being told.

the truth was different. particularly for the terry family that all along what we wanted is accountability to both of the shooters and people involved up the food chain and people at doj who had such bad judgment. >> greta: it's been two years. december it will be two years. i should note over the last couple days, one of men accused the agent terry has been arrested. >> he was arrested in mexico. >> greta: you identify that, there will not be justice in mexico? >> he will be extradited. yes, we are actually and very happy. the terri family wants to see the shooters held accountable ultimately we're happy for them. the justice is not holding themselves accountable and that is where congress has a further

role. >> greta: which brings me back to the report. they are going to eliminate grand jury information within the report including what is asserted under executive privilege. how in the world is it going to be profoundly different than the information you have accumulated in your hearings? >> we are trying to be cautiously optimistic. our experience with i.g.s are good. they are partners in moving out waste and fraud. we are going to wait to see the documents. >> greta: the very thing you want, that you think is going to give you so much information congress that has fought for. he has specifically told for you are not going to get it. what in the world could be possibly new? >> first of all he can reach conclusions. for example, he can reach the conclusion that lenny brewer or eric holder or jason weinstein

knew enough they should have taken action, knew enough about the cover-up. he could reach a conclusion without submitting redacted material. so we want to be cautiously optimistic. we want to believe in them because our record, 12,000 men and women, 75 i.g.s has been good. if we can't make the i.g. system work, the self-enforcement in government then we can't make government work. we're cautiously optimistic but we're going to read the report carefully. >> greta: it's painfully sloel slow for this family? >> it's painfully slow. even the unsealing of the warrants that led to arrest undutyly were slow in coming. the terry family, i'll be next week i'll be in arizona. we're dedicating the border patrol station that brian worked out of in his name.

only second time in history it took a long time but. >> greta: thank you, sir. >> coming up, does pakistan hate us? not just a little bit but really hate snus are they now acting on the hate? new information from a doctor that helped track down osama bin laden. john bolton is here next. why did president obama say he made a mistake? what does that have to do with paul ryan. paul ryan. why let constipation slow you down? try miralax. mirlax worksdifferently than other laxatives. it dws water into your colon to unblock your system naturally.

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>>. >> greta: tonight disturbing news coming out pakistan. the doctor that helped track down osama bin laden tells all about pakistan's spy agency. saying that pakistan's government hates the united states and only pretending to like us to get aid money. i guess we suspected it? >> i think what the doctor has focused on is the inner service intelligence service, isi, the arm of the military that helped arm the mujahedin, that helped create taliban. >> greta: and haqqani network? >> they have funded them for

more than 20 years fighting the soviets. it's no surprise. i think isi hates the united states. the issue has been whether the radicals will take over the country and supply of nuclear weapons. >> greta: is the isi part of the rad kalsz? >> absolutely. >> greta: who is securing the nuclear weapons? >> not the isi. but there is no doubt to me that those weapons are incredibly vulnerable. that is why the strategy of the united states is to grit our teeth and talk to what is left of the civilian government and authority and to the military that are not radical and prevent this cancer from taking over. >> greta: thinking why are we giving this money, billions of dollars who people who hate us. the ugly part of democracy we try to buy our friends?

>> not everybody in pakistan hates us. >> greta: but the isi does. >> we made mistakes going back to the reagan administration, isi that our aid to the mujaheddin, be funded through them. and they fathered the haqqani network. that is 30-year long problem. question is now whether you just throw the whole country under the bus out of frustration with this and risk that those nuclear weapons come under radical control. >> greta: i was there when secretary of state hillary clinton was delivering the news we were going to give them $7 billion in aid. the people were absolutely furious at us because all we said we wanted to know how they are going to spend their money. they said we were trying to put springs to attached. they were absolutely outraged.

it's an ugly relationship? >> i was the aid at the beginning of the reagan administration. it's very unpleasant. it's not going to get easier. i think the democracy is going to get did you ever, diplomacy is going to get tougher. >> greta: they are trying get rid of him? >> and within the pakistani military. it's an unpleasant situation. it's dangerous because of the nuclear weapons. that is the key reason why we're making a mistake by pulling out of afghanistan. if taliban take back over there, the risks of pakistani taliban and other radicals will simply gain control in pakistan i think increases significantly. >> greta: its terrible situation. every time i read the story, to wait, i don't mean in nuclear factor.

>> think of al-qaeda with nuclear weapons. >> greta: ambassador, thanks. coming up, this is not your run of mill show down. this one is different. president obama versus paul ryan. there is no fuel in an explosive fire between them. two minutes, caught on camera, a group of kids gets a scare of a lifetime. lifetime. a bison two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf. lifetime. a bison and every day since, we've worked hard to keep it. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help people and businesses who were affected, and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open for everyone to enjoy -- and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. we've shared what we've learned with governments and across the industry so we can all produce energy more safely. i want you to know, there's another commitment bp takes

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this is one that makes us angry at the irresponsible people urging the children to go ahead and touch him. it's all to experience wildlife but safety rules regarding wildlife are so important to follow. what do you think about this incident? go to greta wire.com and tell us. we're back in two. bob... oh, hey alex. just picking up some, brochures, posters copies of my acceptance speech. great! it's always good to have a backup plan, in case i get hit by a meteor. wow, your hair looks great. didn't realize they did photoshop here. hey, good call on those mugs. can't let 'em see what you're drinking. you know, i'm glad we're both running a nice, clean race. no need to get nasty. here's your "honk if you had an affair with taylor" yard sign. looks good. [ male announcer ] fedex office. now save 50% on banners.

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but thanks to hotwire, this year we got to take an extra trip. because they get us ridiculously low prices on really nice hotels and car rentals. so we hit boston in the spring-- even caught a game. and with the money we saved, we took a trip to san francisco. you see, hotwire checks the competitions' rates every day so they can guarantee their low prices. so, where to next? how about there? ♪ h-o-t-w-i-r-e... ♪ hotwire.com >> live from america's news headquarters, i'm ainsley earhardt. senior u.s. officials confirming an airstrike has killed the second in command in yemen, it is target of what appears to be a u.s. drone strike in afghanistan and spent 6 years in gitmo. the death described as a major setback for al qaeda in yemen, considered the biggest terror threat to america. not confirmed, who was whined

the attack. here in new york, a tribute in lights on the eve of the anniversary of 9/11 in lower manhattan. 1 world trade lit in red, white and blue. the lights can be seen from more than 30 miles away. ceremonies will be held at the world trade center site, the pentagon and in shanksville, pennsylvania. the tribute in lights ends at dawn on wednesday. i'm ainsley earhardt. nah now back to "on the record" with greta. >> greta: rude, dirty politics or just a mistake? it depends on who you ask. president obama says it was a mistake to dress down congressman paul ryan during a budget speech. he didn't know he was going to in the audience. take a look at the awkward moment. >> ronald reagan's budget director says there is nothing courageous about this plan.

nothing serious about a plan that came dliems reduce the deficit by spending trillion in tax cuts on millionaires and billionaires. i don't think there is anything courageous that asks for that and doesn't have any clout on capitol hill. joining us is washington editor, rick cline and correspondent karen and lie ron york. karen, was it an oversight that he was in the audience or was it a sleight? >> whether he was in the audience or not it was an attack. certainly the president you can argue for form versus substance. but the president was willing to criticize the united states supreme court in 2010 state of the union address. it isn't like he has a history of obeying just because people

are in the audience. >> this is not rudeness. this had a real effect, there were negotiations coming. the president and paw paul ryan and republicans had hoped to make some sort of deal. according to bob woodward's book paul ryan was say i can't believe he poisoned the well like this. president said i didn't know he was there. the lights were really bright in front of me. that played into it. >> the cameras with paul ryan assaulting in the front row. clearly the president shows harshly attacking tone but he wasn't we're, that jack ryan, he got his name wrong in telling bob woodward about it. that was a major moment. does that mean the debt deal would have been difficulty if he hadn't been there? i don't know that would be the

case. >> but it was john boehner. >> greta: interesting news out of chicago. rahm emanuel working a strike and got supported from governor romney and paul ryan? >> this is kind have amusing because it mixes up the sides. obviously, mitt romney and paul ryan would be on the side of management in this case, in this case the government of the city of chicago just like they favored scott walk they are wisconsin. in this case the management is rahm emanuel, former chief of staff, major obama supporter. they have come out and we stand with the mayor and he is not be quite as happy. >> this is all about putting barack obama on the spot. this isn't about chicago politics. illinois is blue state. this is all about the president and putting him on the spot. he has championed some of these

same policies through his own education secretaries that used to run the schools in chicago. it's trying to strain the president's relationship with the teachers' union. >> be charitable here. clearly, this is not mitt romney and paul ryan standing up for a democratic mayor of chicago. it's the highlight the fact that they have a close relationship with the teachers unions and puts president obama in a tough spot. they are not taking sides on this. >> greta: is it poisonous, i expect it for president obama? >> i don't think he wants to get near it. >> this is school system in which the president declined to send his own children. i am sure surrogates in the campaign will bring it up. >> and scott walker, they are trying to win and fighting for wisconsin's vote.

>> it resulted in a near death experience for scott walker. >> greta: he won more points, he won by a larger majority with the recall than when he was first elected. >> champion the side of taking on the unions it could be a political winner. i think in battleground states, teachers unions, being on the side isn't a political winner. you would be glad to take them on, whose interested do they have in mind? >> greta: the president has. >> the teachers union because a lot of things for instance in race to the top, signature education program is about rewarding teachers for test score performance and that is exactly one of big issues here. >> greta: you you can imagine what rahm emanuel what he thinks? he wasn't too appreciative of the support. >> i can't imagine he liked the phone call. >> greta: panel, stick around. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] with a driving range

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wells fargo. together we'll go far. so let's talk about coverage. based on this chart, who would you choose ? wow. you guys take a minute. zon, hands down. i'm going to show you guys another chart. pretty obvious. i don't think color matters. pretty obvious. what'sretty obvious about it ? that verizon has the coverage. verin. verizon. we're going to go to another chart. it doesn't really matter how you present it. it doesn't matter how you present it. verizon. more 4g lte coverage than all other networks combined.

>>. >> greta: we're back with our panel and curious how the candidates are doing. >> who is doing well? >> they got nervous about mitt romney.

we have number of polls that barack obama has got some sort of bounce out of the democratic convention that he is leading mitt romney in number of issue areas including the economy. today was the day a lot of republicans begin to ask, mitt romney shoulder a lot of boldness, a new campaign when he picked paul ryan, wondering has he fallen back into the ineight caution that she showed before. i think you are going to see a lot of chatter between conservative leaders and mitt romney in the next few days. >> greta: even laura ingraham, she was tough. she is always tough. she is right to the point. she doesn't beat around the bush. >> i think the horse race numbers, given the fact this election is going to be decided in eight or nine states. would i be worry about romney campaign, couple of things. one is the fact that barack obama has gone from being behind

mitt romney on the economy. there was a big shift. also after the convention which was supposed to introduce mitt romney to the american public, his favorability went down, not up. >> two points on the bounce. one is mitt romney didn't get one. barack obama did. something happened in the intervening two weeks. the other is lot of folks, we may have said last week, there may not be any bounces left to get. so something has to put together something meaningful in the polls. so obama suggested something happened in the last two weeks. i think leaving that convention period. democrats feel better about their prospect than the republicans. >> the worry is for romney it's not a bounce. the president is beginning to pull away a little bit. romney people were saying, the definition of a bounce, it goes up and comes down. we'll see. the bigger worry i think and worry that was addressed by a memo that was sent out this morning by mitt romney's pollster which said fundamentals

of the race are the same. maybe there a little bit of a sugar high left over but the fundamentals are the same. economy is terrible. that is why mitt romney is going to win. it's an every to assure people. it didn't cite. >> but that sugar wasn't served proefl in tampa. >> was it sugar or five hour energy drinks? >> the conventions were right after each other. i think you could say it's entirely possible that the democratic convention stepped on whatever effect the republican convention might have had. the reasonable thing to say, wait a week or two and see if it is still going on. >> how did congressman ryan do. he was on the morning shows yesterday? >> i think he is going to have a hard time explaining what they are doing on taxes and. he was pressed in a couple different interviews in what do you want to do with taxes. the idea of saying, we'll deal

with that after the election is going to create more questions. he will be asked that questions, whose taxes is going up. >> the whole thing is man that will tell the hard truth. >> greta: he is going to have a tough time. it be interesting to watch the debates. coming up, last koom call what elvis presley is rake in the big bucks? bucks? it's not his blue suede shoes. those surprising little things she does

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>> greta: 11:00 is almost here, flash the studio lights, it's time for last call. an auction gets all shook up over elvis. the old bible hitting the auction block and selling for $94,000. it was given to the singer in his graceon home in 1957, one of many elvis items auctioned off. his under wear was also up for bids. and that is