celebrate the anniversary of the harley-davidson. before i let you go, i tweeted this out. there's a secret we're going to spill the beans on. how you doing on the wedding, next weekend is the big day. erica has been doing god's work. congratulations. tonight on huckabee. >> you don't have to have done anything wrong. you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion. >> he leaks classified information on the government surveillance of americans. is edward snowden a hero or traitor? searching for terrorists by monitoring millions of phone calls, e-mails, web searches effective or more like trying to find a needle in a hay stack. and $108 for antibiotic ointment, $77 for gauze pads. does obama care do anything to address excessive hospital costs? >> no, and no. and that lowers the cost. if anything it will raise the

cost. ladies and gentlemen, governor mike huckabee. thank you very much. very happy father's day to everyone, at least to the fathers. i have long advocated we ought to pass the fair tax. that would eliminate all taxes on income, savings, dividends, capital gains, inheritance and investments, and it would replace these penalties on productivity with a tax on consumption at the retail level. there's an important benefit of the fair tax that we can all really embrace. it eliminates the irs. that's a good reason for it, right? well, in light of the illegal

and unethical activities of the irs in relationship to conservative pro-life and pro-israel groups and their reckless disregard of the taxes they take from us by spending $50 million on their fun little outings that involve luxury hotels, line dancing classes and swag bags, maybe, just maybe the public is ready to end the legalize theft of our finances and our freedom. you see, another benefit of getting rid of the irs is stopping the government threat of losing tax exempt status to shut down the voices of churches. i want you to think carefully about this and let me say, i doubt everybody is going to agree with me. but maybe, maybe it is time churches quit caring about their tax exempt status and care more about being unfettered to speak with absolute freedom and clarity on the moral issues of the day. by the way, i brought this issue up last week when i spoke to the

pastors at the southern baptist convention in houston. i know i have never given a dime of my tithe to my church for the tax consequences, because for christians, giving isn't about getting the government's blessing but god's. and by the way, if somebody gives money -- [ applause ] -- i mean, if somebody gives money to god solely for the tax benefits, then maybe that person ought to keep their money. they frankly need it worse than god does. you see, the empty threat that's caused many a pastor or church to water down their message confronting the culture because of fear of reprisal from the irs, that would stop. it isn't the place of any agency of the government to evaluate the content of a pastor's sermon and determine if that is acceptable to the government. even if the fair tax isn't passed immediately, why not end

all government subsidies to all organizations, religious or not, and let freedom ring. if you believe in something political, spiritual, economic, pay for it. leave the government out of it. for those that fear churches would pay huge taxes, fear not. they use funds for missions and ministries. there's little left for most congregations. of course, it would mean contributions wouldn't be deductible. there's already a limit how much one can deduct, so the benefit isn't that big. as daniel rejected the king's food, maybe people ought to reject the government's goodies, in exchange get absolute freedom, instead of worrying about whether the message is threatened with government penalty, tell the government to put it where the sun don't

shine. what we say and what we do in our churches ought to be driven by our faith, not by the government limits on our freedom. edward snowden who leaked information about the national security agency surveillance program on programs told the south china morning post that he is neither a trait error hero. he says he's just an american. but that hasn't stopped the debate here at home. is snowden a hero or a traitor? bill benny is a foreigner nsa official with more than 30 years in the agency, became a whistleblower and resigned in 2001, after the program he created for foreign intelligence gathering was turned inward on this country. steven yates is former deputy assistant to vice president cheney for national security

affairs, and ceo of d.c. international advisory. he spent the first five years of his career at the national security agency. gentlemen, glad to have both of you here. bill, let me start with you. i don't think this is really so much about edward snowden as it is about the programs and their value to the country, and whether or not they violent the constitutional rights of americans. but i do want to ask in your view is edward snowden a good guy or bad guy? >> well, i certainly think that what he's done in exposing these programs is really a great public service. this kind of what i refer to or think of as unconstitutional activity by the government needs to be addressed by the public openly and so we can as a country decide whether or not we want our government to do this kind of activity. after all, collecting this kind

of knowledge about the citizenry is a very dangerous thing for the government to have. >> i want to bring up, you left the nsa back in 2001 because you thought that there were some things happening even then, this was 12 years ago, that crossed the line. what line did it cross and what was the final straw for you when you said that's it, i'm done? >> well, it was because they started collecting billing data from the telecoms. the one i knew that was participating was at&t, they were giving on the order of 320 million records every day of u.s. citizens talking to other u.s. citizens. well, given the power of that meta data, it allows you to reconstruct the calling community, you would know who's doing what with whom. you could begin to reconstruct the tea party, any kind of organization you want and begin to see who's central to that organization or not and target those accordingly.

>> steve, how valuable is this information first of all in its collection, and how damaging is it that edward snowden has revealed at least the parameters of the program? >> well, my assumption is that the data is extremely valuable in the work that the intelligence community is trying to do, but it is not entirely their decision to make about what scope they have to gather and pursue leads here in the united states. that's something that's completely dependent on what the judicial branch of government says and executive branch says in exercising oversight. >> one of the questions is if it is so valuable, why didn't it stop boston, have anything to do with the underwear bomber, shoe bomber, fort hood, little rock. there are so many instances, and it had nothing to do with stopping it. so why are we collecting all of this data, and if it is so valuable, how come to this day we still haven't said fort hood is terrorism? i think those are legitimate

things to ask the government, tell us why we need this data. it doesn't seem to be working all that well for us right now. >> fair enough. i think it is never going to be a good tool to detect on-going or forthcoming attack. what it has been, when properly used and when we can find out it hasn't been properly used, is after something has happened, after a major lead has come in, you can go back and analyze data to find out if someone acted alone, if there was a pattern of communication that could lead to a broader network. it is this post hoc kind of utility that it can be powerful in the right hands with the right constraints. >> let me pose this question to both of you, and bill, i'll let you answer, then i want steve to answer. let's just say if this 29-year-old, who is not even a government employee, he is a contractor, and he is not a high level official, if he can get

his hands on this and extract it, then obviously there's a lot of people who could get to this information. what gives us any confidence at all that somebody doesn't decide to manipulate the next presidential election by digging up all of the phone records, the internet records, every photo that every presidential candidate has had and essentially blackmail everybody and completely control an election? comfort me here. bill, let me start with you, then steve, i would like an answer from you. >> you see, basically the fundamental problem with government having all of this knowledge about the population, i mean, one of the things that has troubled me with the testimony that's come into congress about the irs activity by attacking or targeting individuals, one individual was asked a question by the irrelevancy, what is your relationship with this other person, and they gave a name. how do they know there's a relationship? well, if you look into the meta

data of the program, you know all of those relationships. the real question is how does the irs know about that relationship. i think they need to answer that because it looks to me like that's a part of the program, a resolve of it, taking knowledge and redirecting it in a political way to target organizations that they don't particularly care for. >> steve, i would like your response to the same thing. i think it is fundamental, more than who edward snowden is, it is who else has this information, what could they do with it. >> they could do a tremendous amount with it, but there are two pillars on which this program must rest or be discontinued. one is trust, the other is targeting. in the current environment, any notion of trust in the federal government, gathering and respecting the information it has is blown. there's going to have to be some major effort to restore trust. the nsa is very different from the irs, but the whole general notion of trusting what the government is doing is frankly lost at the moment. targeting is where the current

environment has failed miserably, making sure we use the tools we have to look more narrowly at people who are real threats and real challenges. that's unacceptable to take a giant vacuum cleaner, hold onto an infinite amount of information which technologically we now can do. we have to have targeting to have trust and for this to work. if you drown yourself in information, boston bombers and other people basically hide in plain sight. >> all right. well, first of all, i don't think there's a whole lot of stuff on me, in case there is, i don't want them holding on to it, okay? all right. bill and steve, you'll rejoin us in a few minutes. first, should edward snowden be charged and tried as a traitor? alan dershowitz says they have a better chance convicting him as a thief. i'll tell you why. i would like to hear from you, mikehuckabee.com. tell me what you think.

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should edward snowden be charged with a crime? if so, should he be extradited? joining me, defense attorney alan dershowitz. >> nice to be here. thank you. >> this is going to be a fascinating case. >> oh, yeah. >> first of all, will this guy get extradited to the u.s., if so, will he be charged with espionage or crime of theft? >> if the government is smart, they will not charge him with anything that sounds political at all. they will charge him as a common thief. he was working for a company, he did not own this material. he stole it. now maybe for a reason he thought was a good one, but he should be charged with theft. that way the chinese government, hong kong government won't have any excuse for not extraditing him. then the government has to think

like lawyers. they have to say where do we want this guy to land? if they land him in san francisco, he gets a jury in silicon valley who are going to be very sympathetic. >> could be in a ticker tape parade. >> if they land him in dulles airport, he is tried in northern virginia where the cia is located. >> he is cooked. >> so all these decisions will influence whether or not he is actually brought to trial. >> the fact that he has leaked this information, he himself says he thinks his life is over, he will never see his family again. clearly he knows what he did was wrong, but he believed it was necessary to release the information because he thought that the government was wrong. is that a legitimate defense to say i did what i did, yes, i know i broke a law, but the government is breaking a law. >> it is what civil disobedients have done, religious, civil, political disobedience. the rule is you do the crime, you pay the consequences.

you admit what you did was illegal and you want to go to jail. nelson mandela went to jail for civil disobedience, martin luther king. this man may claim he is a civil disobedient. sometimes they get lucky, get a jury that says maybe we shouldn't put him in jail. he certainly has committed a crime. one of the problems, the law is so vague people that published it committed a crime, "the washington post" committed a crime, "the new york times." >> the post does every day they publish a paper, don't they? you don't have to respond to that. that was teed up. >> the difference between the moral side and legal side. but it is legally a crime to publish material that you know is classified, but they never go after legitimate newspapers. >> should they? >> well, there should be one law for everybody and we should change the law and make it clear, whether the times publishing classified material, is or isn't a crime. if it is, they should be

prosecuted. they would challenge on constitutional grounds. they might or might not win. we can't allow the government to pick and choose. going back to your original opening statement today, which you'll be surprised to hear i agree with much of, i want the government out of what the churches can say, same is true here. you don't want the government to say "the new york times," that's good. wikileaks, we're not so sure. if it is a radical newspaper like so and so, maybe not. maybe if it is a tea party newspaper, we will go after them. we don't want to give the government any discretion as to which media to go after. the law has to be changed to make it absolutely clear what that red line is and when you cross it. >> i would think there's a huge difference between a paper publishing the existence of a program and publishing operational details, names of agents, locations that could actually endanger somebody's life. that would have to be factored in? >> should be part of the law. believe it or not, it is not today part of the law. it is up to the newspapers to pick and choose what they publish.

a responsible newspaper will not publish the location of safe houses, names of spies, weapons programs. but the very publication of some of these super secret and very, very important, some of them, programs, certainly do risk our national security. look, i think there's exaggeration on both sides. i think those that claim it is the end all, beat all to stop terrorism are overstating it. i also those that think it is end of the world from civil liberties are overstating it. we already have video cameras on every corner, that's very intrusive. that's what caught the boston bombers. we already have what are called mail watchers. if you send a letter, remember what letters are, used to write letters. >> i heard of them. >> the government has the right to determine where the mail is coming from, where it was being sent to. this is not something new. what's new is the massiveness of it, the fact that we can do it to millions and millions of phone calls and connect the dots and put everybody together.

every time you get in your car and drive in the ez lane, the government knows where you are. every time you make a phone call, call taxi, they can locate you. already we live in this kind of big brother society, where we ought to draw the line, content. i think there's enormous difference between the government knowing you made a phone call and the government being able to listen to the content of your phone call. >> hold that call. we're going to go back to that, and bring bill and steve into the conversation when we come back. your

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we are back with alan dershowi dershowitz, bill binney, steve yates. we were talking before about the issue of how valuable this information is. let's pick it up from right the there. let me go to bill binney. when you left the cia, some of the things we're seeing are programs you helped develop, but you say it was intended to look at foreign sources, not u.s. is that the point you feel like that our government has stepped across the line? >> y monitoring shopping preferences. we have to essentially if we don't read the agreement, we agree at some point, but have we agreed that our government can keep that information because, you know, public super market can't prosecute me, the department of justice can. maybe i am more willing to give the information to the supermarket than department of justice. >> there's no question about that. we know that the younger generation is prepared to give up their privacy for community, they care more about community, which is why they're prepared to live their lives openly on facebook, but they don't want the government to have that material. now, i like what somebody said previously, and that is this makes an enormous amount of sense, trying to solve crimes after they occur. after the fact, you can make

connections that go way, way t out. talk about a dna problem, in ten years, i predict every child will have dna taken at birth, there will be a universal dna bank, don't have a fire wall between using dna as identification, for example, a fingerprint, and looking into a dna, genetics, finding out how long they are likely to live, whether they have propensity to violence and crime. dna is the key the government to use to unlock all our privacy, and the supreme court has not been focused on creating protections against that. >> where is that line between our constitutional right to be protected against search and seizure of property and information and the government's necessary right to obtain information to stop bad people?

>> justice scalia and originalists say you go to 1793, see what the framers have in mind. framers couldn't have contemplated massive data banks and dna banks. where i draw the line, externality. i don't want them to listen to my phone calls, i don't want them to read my mail. i am less concerned about them taking pictures of me walking down the street without listening to me or knowing that i made a phone call here and there. that may be a line we can live with. a line between externally seeing you and then internally finding out more about you. it is not a clear line, and even the externalitys involve great intrusion being able to put the dots together and figuring out internalities by finding out about the externality.

>> i am surprised it is not republicans on one side, democrats on the other. i have friends that see it 180 degrees differently from me, and i am comforted by that. you know, i want to say, alan, bill, steve, thank you all for being here. what i do hope is that maybe if ed snowden didn't do anything else, he will force us to take a good, long, hard look at ourselves as a country, as a government, and decide what are we willing to give up. is it worth it. and if we are giving it up to protect our freedom but give up our freedom to get it, did we give up what we were supposed to be protecting? that will be the question. thank you all for being here. it was a pleasure. you go to the hospital to heal your wounds and ailments, but the bill at the end costs an arm and a leg. coming up, an eye opening report on why medical costs are so high, and how obama care is not going to be doing anything to stop it. we'll be right back. obamacare obamacare doing anything to

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axiron. live from america's news headquarters, i am harris faulkner. updating you on the nsa leaker story governor huckabee has been covering. former vice president dick cheney who laid work for that surveillance program calls edward snowden a traitor. in a rare interview with fox news sunday, the former vice president suggested he could be a spy for china, which is where he turned up after the scandal broke. further developments in the deepening crisis in syria. president bashar al-assad's regime about to get big support from iran, they're sending 4,000 troops to syria to help assad fight the rebels battling him. meanwhile, the u.s. is getting ready to arm the opposition. the civil war going on for two years. 90,000 people have died there. let's get you back to huckabee.

all the news when you want it, foxnews.com. hind. the unrest is sparked by government plans to build a mall in the square. this summer, the president is going to be touring the country, trying to sell obama care, all over again. well, could it be because polls continue to show his health care overhaul is unpopular with most americans? a new fox news poll shows 55% oppose obama care. that's compared to 40% who were in favor of it. even members of congress, including a lot of the democrats, are contemplating quitting because of the high premiums under the law. what are the problems of obama care, though, and doesn't even tackle a real issue, the outrageous hospital costs we face. let me show you some examples for what they charge at the hospital compared to the local drugstore or buying them online. we bought this box of sterile gauze pads for about $7.50 at a

nearby drugstore. some hospitals charge patients $77 for them. this antibiotic here for about six bucks a tube. guess what hospitals charge for this same item? $108. you got a headache? i bet you do now hearing what the hospital is charging. you can get 100 of these pain reliever pills for $1.50 online. hospitals mark them up 100 times the street cost. they charge 1.50 per pill. steven brill wrote a special report for "time" magazine, called bitter pill, why medical bills are killing us. i spoke to him recently about why hospitals charge so much. you spent seven months trying to figure out why hospital costs

were so high. where did that search take you? >> well shs it took me first and foremost to actual bills. i decided i didn't want to write a policy he isessay about healt care. i didn't want to write who should pay for the high cost of health care, how do you cover the first course. i was concerned with why does it cost so much. i took bills and looked at every item on the bill, whether it was a charge of $13,000 for a cancer drug or $67 for a box of gauze pads. and i traced who got all of that money and how come and who's making out like a bandit. what i found was we basically have been living in two economies in this country for the last ten years, the economy you and i know, where people are hard pressed, jobs are tight, money is tight, then there's the health care economy where everybody is doing really well, except maybe the nurses and doctors. but the people that sell the

equipment, the people that make the drugs, the people that run the allegedly nonprofit hospitals are all making ridiculous amounts of money. >> so you mean the doctors who spend 12, sometimes 15 years just preparing to be a doctor are making less money? >> far less. unless they've gained the system to start a clinic or send patients or they consult for a drug company, they're not making the big bucks. the guys who make the cat scan equipment or, you know, the pharmaceutical sales, pharmaceutical executives, the hospital administrators, your local nonprofit hospital, without even knowing it, i can tell you that the guy who runs your local hospital in little rock makes well over a million and a half dollars a year. >> far more than any of the physicians are going to be making, who are saving people's lives, digging into their brains and -- >> and you know, of all of the people you want to get the most

money for the system, it is the guy you're looking at when you go to the emergency room. >> absolutely. the operating room. will obama care have an impact on lowering the cost, does it even address it? >> no, and no. it will not lower the cost. if anything, it will raise the cost. but the reason obama care was able to be passed was because all the people who are making all the money are just going to make more money because there are going to be more patients. >> so it is not going to actually help the consumer, nor is it going to help the physician or nurse. >> it will help the consumer who will be forced to have insurance protection many people think they should have. so it will help that consumer. it will help someone who has a pre-existing condition that they will now be able to buy health insurance. but we could still be able to buy health insurance, premiums for everybody else will go up, and for people that can't afford it, the government is going to

step in and subsidize the premiums. costs are going to go up. it does nothing to attack the $13,000 price for the drug transfusion or $77 price for gauze pads. it does nothing to deal with that. >> wow. when we come back, i want to ask you about something called the charge master. i find that to be one of the most fascinating things you uncovered in your study and can't wait to get to it. we will be right back with steven brill. stay with us. ♪

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we're back with steven brill. i mentioned before the break something called the charge master. it sounds like a character out of "ghostbusters." the key master. what is the charge master? >> it's this thing nobody knows about except if you're in the medical world everybody knows about it. it's this massive three, four, 10,000 item list of the list prices that every hospital charges. so for a tylenol pill they might charge 1.50 even though it costs them less than a penny. for a transfusion of a drug it could be 10 or 15,000. those are the list prices. they use that to tell insurance companies we'll give you a that sounds sort of seminormal. every item has a list price and you go into the car dealer and they lower it except there's no consistency for any of the prices. no hospital administrator can tell you how they got the prices.

it's not based on cost or based on anything. it's really a symbol of the fact that this isn't a marketplace. they feel no obligation to explain it and they can't because they literally can't explain it. >> this is like the charge master might say okay, we're going to charge $10,000 for a heart stint in this hospital. another hospital might charge 5,000. >> it would be 2,000 at another hospital and yet the hospital where it's 2,000 could charge six times what the other hospital charges for something else. there's no rhyme or reason. >> no standard. >> no and it's all unaccountable. no one ever had to explain it because if you're in the marketplace the seller has all the power. >> and the patient doesn't pay attention because generally the person who is receiving the service, the patient is not the one actually paying the bill. the insurance company, the third party, is that part of the real

problem we have. >> except in the crazy world of healthcare economics the patients that do pay the charge master bills are the ones that don't have insurance. in your home state there are probably thousands of people being sued by hospitals for charge master prices, the high prices, that causes 61% of the personal bankruptcies in this country. so there's no accountability. there's no rational for it ane nobody can explain it but nobody has to explain it. now that, you know, deductibles are getting higher and people are going to go into insurance exchanges, everybody is starting to think about what healthcare costs because more people have more skin in the game. when they see those prices, you know, there may be the kind of disgust that will cause things to change. >> how do we fix this, steven? this is out of control and nobody can really even understand it. it's like a language only the -- >> we are the only country in the world that decided we want to live under the illusion that

we can treat medical care as if it's a real marketplace, you know, where the buyer has any power. the buyer doesn't have any power. every other country intercedes. the $13,000 bill for the drug transfusion for the cancer care patient in my article, that would be 4 or $5,000 in germany or france or england and yet the drug companies, they sell like crazy there. they make a lot of money on 4 or $5,000. so there has to be some intercession in the marketplace so there's real power, the buyer has. where it begins has to be the kind of, you know, complete transparency i intended to do with the article. >> is transparency enough, or is that going to require a second step of government regulation? >> the first step is telling me i'm supposed to pay the $13,000 for the drug or the $77 for the gauze pad. that's nice. that's good.

but if i don't have any choice, that's not enough. something has -- there have to be regulations. oddly enough, the only entity that really has power is, you know, medicare. they do it really efficiently unless your viewers get all excited, i should underscore the fact that medicare is actually mostly run by the private sector. there are like 600 government employees and something like 8,000 employees in the private sector that do a wonderful job administering medicare. >> thank you for the article bitter pill. it is a bitter pill. appreciate you being here. >> happy to be here, governor. >> thank you. one of adele's biggest hits like you've never heard it before. you've seen it on youtube, the piano guys. they're here next. [ applause ] [ male announcer ] everyone has the ability to do something amazing.

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they is become an internet >> they have become an internet phenomenon. their dozens of videos have received over 225 million views on-line. they have got a brand new cd called a piano guy's volume 2. would you please welcome john schmidt and steven nelson, the piano guys. >> you guys started out doing these youtube videos that took off like crazy. what was the genesis? >> it started out paul anderson wanted to promote the sales of piano in a new way. they wanted to start recruiting musicians to play to promote the sales of the piano. >> it took off like crazy. >> it was wonderful. we started making more and more videos. >> are you surprised how youtube has turned something like what

you guys do into an international event? >> all i can say is youtube works. suddenly we are touring all over the world. we are just a couple of dads. we pull up to the show in our decked out mini van. >> what are you going to do for us today, john? >> we are going to do a little rolling in the deep version we did with a little bit of jupiter. >> this particular cut has received well over 12 million views on youtube. pretty phenomenal. let's hear it. >> all right. ♪

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sfloets ♪ ♪ >> thank you guys so very much for being here. we love it. get the music on amazon or on

itunes. remember the piano guy. thank you for being with us. we hope you have a wonderful week. until next time from new york this is mike huckabee, good night and god bless.