thank you for joining us for this special "on the record"" go to greta wire.com. good night from washington, d.c. . i'll see you for the first news break. tweet me. i'll tweet you back. huckabee is now. >> you don't have to have done anything wrong. you simply the have to eventually fall under suspicion. >> he leaked classified information on the government surveillance of americans. is edward snowden a hero or trader? and is searching for terrorists by monitoring millions of phone calls, e-mails and web searches effective or more like trying to find a needle in a hay stack? plus, $108 for antibiotic ointment, $77 for gauze pads. does obamacare address excessive healthcare costs.

>> no, no, and no. if anything, it will raise the cost. ladies and gentlemen, governor mike huckabee. [ applause ] thank you. thank you very much. and welcome to huckabee from the fox news studios in new york city and a very happy father's day to everyone. well, at least to the fathers. all right. i have long advocated that we ought to pace the fair tax. that would eliminate taxes on income, saving, dividends, capital gains, inheritance and investments and replace these penalties on our productive with a tax on our consumption at the retail level. there's an important benefit that we, i think can all really embrace. it eliminates the irs. that's a good reason for it,

right? [ applause ] >> well, in light of the illegal and unethical activities of the irs in relationship to conservative, pro-life and proisrael groups and the disregard for the taxes they take from us by spending $50 million online dancing classes and swag bags, maybe, just maybe the public is ready to end the legalized theft of our finances and our freedom. you see, another benefit of getting rid of the irs is stopping the government threat of losing tax-exempt status to shut down the voices of churches. now, i want you to think carefully about this and let me say, i doubt everybody is going to agree with me, but maybe, maybe it's time that churches quit caring about their tax-exempt status and care more about speaking with absolute freedom and clarity on the morale issues of the day.

i brought this issue up last week. when i spoke to the pastors at the southern baptist convention in houston. now, i know i have never given a dime of my tithe because of the tax consequences. because for christians giving isn't about the getting the governments blessing but gods [ applause ] >> i mean, if somebody gives money to god solely for the tax benefits, then maybe that person ought to keep their money. they frankly need it worse than god does. you see, the empty threat that caused a pastor or church to water down their message because of fear of preprizels for the irs, that would stop. it isn't the place of any agency of the government to evaluate the content of the pastor's sermon and determine if that is acceptable to the government. even if the fair tax isn't

passed immediately, why not end the federal government subsidies to all entities and organizations religious or not and let freedom ring. now -- [ applause ] >> if you believe in something political, spiritual, even economic, then pay for it. leave the government out of it. for those that fear the churches would pay huge taxes, fear not, they use their funds for staff, and ministries. there's little if anything left over for most congregations. it wouldn't mean contributions wouldn't be deductible so there's already a limit so the benefit isn't that big. as daniel rejected the king's food maybe people of faith ought to reject the government's goodies but gain absolute freedom and instead of worrying about whether our message is

threatened with government penalty, we just tell the government to put it where the sun don't shine [ applause ] >> what we say and what we do in our churches ought to be driven by our faith, not by the government limits on our freedom. [ applause ] >> well, edward snowden, the former federal intelligence employee who leaked the information about the national security agency surveillance program on americans told the south china morning post that he's neither a traitor nor a hero. he says he's just an american but that hasn't stopped the debate here at home. so is snowden a hero or a traitor? bill is a former official with more than 30 years in the agency. he became a whistle blower and re-signed in 2001 after the program he created for foreign intelligence gathering was turned inward on this country.

b steven yates is a former deputy assistant to vice president chaney and ceo of d.c. international advisory. he spent the first five years of his career at the national security agency. gentlemen. glad to have both of you here. >> thank you. >> bill, let me start with you. i don't think this is really so much about edward snowden as it is about the programs and their value to the country and whether or not they violate the constitutional rights of americans but i do want to ask, if your view, is edward snowden a good guy or a bad guy? >> well, i certainly think that what he has done in exposing these programs is a great public service. this kind of -- what i think of as unconstitutional activity by the government needs to be addressed by the public openly so we can, as a country, decide whether or not we want our

government to do this kind of activity. after all, collecting this kind of knowledge about the citizenry is dangerous for the government to have. >> you left -- you left the nsa back in 2001 because you thought that there were some things happening even then, this was 12 years ago that crossed the line. what line did it cross and what was the final straw for you and you said that's it, i'm done? >> well it was because they started collecting billing data from the telecoms. the one that was initially participating was at&t and they were given 200 million records of u.s. citizens talking to other u.s. citizens. that allowed you to reconstruct their entire calling community therefore you would know who is doing what with whom. so you could begin to reconstruct the tea party, any kind of organization you want. and then begin to see who is central to that organization or

not and target those accordingly. >> steve, how valuable is this information, first of all in it's collection? and how damaging is it that edward snowden has revealed the -- at least the parameters of the program? >> well, my assumption is that the data is extremely valuable in the work that the intelligence community is trying to do but it's not entirely their decision to make about what scope they have to gather and pursue leads here in the united states. that's something that is completely dependent upon what the judicial branch of government says and what the legislative branch says in exercising oversight. >> one of the questions is if it's so valuable how come it didn't stop boston or have anything to do with the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, fort hood, little rock -- there are so many instances and it had nothing to do with stopping it so why are we collecting all of this data and if it's so valuable how come

to this day we still haven't said that fort hood is terrorism? those are legitimate things to be asking our government. tell us why we need this data. it doesn't seem to be working all that well for us right now. >> well, fair enough. i think it is never going to be a good tool to detect on going or forth coming attacks. what it has been when properly used and we could possibly find out it hasn't been properly used is after something has happened -- after a major lead has come in, people can go back and analyze this data to find out if someone acted alone or if there had been a pat herb of communications -- pattern of communications that could lead to a broader network. it's the post hoc utility that it could be used in the right hands and right constraints. >> let me pose this question to both of you. bill i'll start with you and then i want steve to answer. let's say this 29-year-old

that's not a government employee, he's a contractor and he's not a high level official. if he can get his hands on this and extract it obviously there's a lot of people that could get to this information. what gives us any confidence at all that somebody doesn't decide to manipulate the next presidential election by digging up all the phone records, the internet records, every photo that every presidential candidate has had and essentially blackmail everybody and completely control an election? comfort me here. bill, let me start with you and steve i'd like an answer from you. >> see, that's the fundamental problem with government having all of this knowledge about the population. one of the things that troubled me with the testimony that's come into congress about the irs activity by attacking or targeting individuals, one individual giving a testimony there said they were asked a question by the irs, what is your relationship with this other person and they gave a

name. well, how do they know there's a relationship? well if you look into the met at a data of the program they know all of the relationships. so the question is how does the irs know about that relationship? they need to answer that because it looks to me like that's a result of this program. they're taking knowledge and redirecting it in a political way to target organizations that they don't particularly care for. >> all right steve, i'd like your response to this same thing. i do think it's fundamental. more important than who edward snowden is it's who else out there has this information. what could they do with it? >> they could do a tremendous amount with it. there's two pill laars it must rest. one is trust and one is targeting. any notion of trust in the federal government gathering and respecting the information it has is blown. there's going to have to be a major effort to restore trust. the nsa is very different from the irs but this whole general

notion of trust in what the government is doing is lost at the moment. targeting is where the current environment failed hmiserably i making sure that we're looking more narrowly at people that are real threats and real challenges. it's unacceptable to take a vacuum cleaner and hold on to the information. we have to have targeting in order for people to have trust and this to work. if you drowned yourself in information then boston bombers and other people basically hide in plain sight. >> all right. well, first of all, i don't think there's a lot of stuff on me but just in case there is, i don't want them holding on to it, okay. >> right. >> all right. bill and steven you'll rejoin us in a few minutes but first, should edward snowden be charged and tried as the traitor. the government has a better chance convicting him as a thief. he'll explain why when we come back. i'd like to hear from you. go to mikehuckabee.c

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should edward snowden be charged with a crime and if so, what should it be in order to extradite him back to the u.s. joining me is alan, great to have you here. >> nice to be here, thank you. >> now, this is going to be a fascinating case because, first of all, will this guy get extradited back to the u.s. and if so, will they be charged with the crime of theft. >> if they are smart they won't charge him with anything political at all. they'll charge him as a thief. he was working for a company, he did not own this material. he stole it. but maybe a good one.

but he should be charged with theft that why the governments won't have an excuse for not extraditing him. then they have to say where do we want him to land. if they land him in san francisco he gets a jury that will be very sympathetic. >> they'll give him a parade out there. >> if they land him at dallas airport he gets tried in northern virginia where the cia is located. >> he's cooked. >> he's cooked. so that will determine whether he is brought to trial. >> he himself thinks his life is over and will never see his family again. clearly he knows what he did was wrong but he believed it was necessary to release the information because he thought that the government was wrong. is that a legitimate defense to say i did what i did. yes i know i broke a law but the government is breaking a law. >> look it's what civil disobedients have done since the beginning of time. civil and political.

but the rule of civil disobedience is you do the crime and pay the consequences. nelson mandela went to jail for civil disobedience, martin luther king. he maybe able to claim he's a civil disobedient. sometimes they get a jury that says maybe we shouldn't put him in jail but he has committed a crime. one of the problems is the law are so vague that the people that published it committed a crime, the washington post committed a crime. >> i think the post does that every time they publish a paper don't they alan? you don't have to respond to that. i couldn't leave it alone. go ahead. >> but there's a difference between a morale crime and a legal crime but it is legally a crime to publish material that you know is classified but they never go after legitimate newspapers for doing that. >> should they. >> well, there should be one law for everybody and we should change the law and make it clear whether the times publishing

classified material is or isn't a crime. if it is they should be prosecuted. they would challenge it or constitutional grounds. they might or might not win. we can't allow the government to pick or choose. going back to your opening statement here today which you'll be surprised that i agree with much of. i want the government out of deciding what the churches can say. you don't want the government to say new york times, that's good. if it's a radical newspaper like so and so, maybe it's not. we don't want to give the government any discretion as to which media to go after. the law has to be changed to make it absolutely clear what that red line is and when you cross it [ applause ] >> i would think there is a huge difference between a paper publishing the existence of a program and publishing operational details, names of agents, locations that could actually endanger somebody's life. that would have to be factored in, would it not? >> that should be part of the law. believe it or not, it's not

today part of the law and it's up to the newspapers to pick and choose what they're going to publish. a responsible newspaper is not going to publish the location of safe houses, the names of spies and weapons programs but the very publication of some of these super secret and very, very important some of them programs certainly do risk our national security. i think there's exaggeration on both sides. i do think that those that claim that this is the end all be all and stop all terrorism are overstating it. i also think those that think this is the end of the world from a civil liberty's point of view are overstating it. we have video cameras on every corner, that's very intrusive and that caught the boston bombers. we already have mail watchers -- do you remember what letters are? >> i heard of them. >> the government had the right to determine whether the mail was coming from, where it was being sent to. so this is not something new. what's new is the massiveness of it. the fact that we can do it to

millions and millions of phone calls and connect the dots and put everybody together. every time you get in your car and drive in the easy lane the government knows where you are. every time you make a phone call, call a taxi cab they can locate you. so already we live in this kind of big brother society. where we ought to draw the line is at content. i really think there's an enormous difference between the government knowing you made a phone call and the government being able to listen to the content of your the verizon share everything plan for small busines lets you connect up to 25 devices on one easy to manage plan. that means your smartphone, her blackberry, his laptop, mark's smartphone... but i'm still on vacation... ...stilln the plan. nice! so is his tablet, that guy's hotspot, thentern's tablet. the intern gets a tablet? everyone's devices. his, hers, oh sorry... all easier to manage on the share everything plan for small business. connecting more so you can do more. that's powerful. verizon. get the blackberry q10 for $199.99.

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we are back with alan, bill benny and steve yates. when we were talking before we got into the whole issue of how valuable this information is. let's pick it up from right

there. and let me go to bill. bill, when you left the nsa, some of the things that we're seeing now are programs that you helped develop but you say it was intended to look at foreign sources, not u.s. is that the point that you feel like that our government has stepped across the line? >> yes it is. plus, the fact that they're collecting such bulk data. they were -- i left them with analytic principles like if you have a terrorist talk to somebody in the united states that was like the first degree. then the second degree would be who that person in the united states talked to. that formed a zone of suspicion and also you looked at who the people are that were looking at the advocating sites that advocate terrorism and then you add them to the zone of suspicion. that could have captured every terrorist i've ever known.

that gives you a very focused attack. what they're doing now is taking in all of this magnitude of much more data and it's making the job much more difficult. they're making themselves dysfunctional. >> that's to me an important question. we're getting so much information. we keep talking about the needle in a hay stack but are we making the hay stack so big we'll never find the needle. >> technology has changed a great deal and we have programs that can go after the data but i think that the principles that bill outlines are correct and should be guiding what the government is doing. a couple of the challenges we have is that we have foreign agencies, actors, terrorists, others that are going to be actively attacking our systems and surveilling us and our government needs to be monitoring a wider range of things than was technologically possible in 2000, 2001. we as consumer versus to recognize that when we give data voluntarily out into the cloud and by our consumer behavior it's not just companies using it.

governments foreign and domestic will get it too. we need to be smarter about that as consumers. >> is it a fair assessment to say there is a difference? it eludes to something you say before. we have cameras around on every street corner and we know that and there's companies monitoring our shopping preferences and we have to -- even if we never read the agreement, we do agree at some point but have we agreed that our government can keep that information? a public super market can prosecute me. the department of justice can. maybe i'm more willing to give that information to the super market than i am to the department of justice. >> there's no question about that. we know, too, that the younger generation is prepared to give up their privacy for community. they care more about community which is why they're prepared to live their lives openly on facebook. but they don't want the government to have that material. now i like what somebody said previously and that is this makes an enormous amount of sense in trying to solve crimes after they occurred because

after the fact you can then make connections that go way, way out. that's why we're collecting so much dna. talk about a problem. the dna problem. do you know within 10 or 15 years i predict every child born in america and perhaps in the world will have their dna taken at birth. there will be a universal dna bank and we don't have a firewall between using dna for personal identification as a fingerprint and looking into a person's dna. their genetics how long they're going to live. what diseases they're likely to get, whether they have propensities to violence and crime. dna is the key the government could use to unlock all of our privacy and the supreme court has not been focused on creating protections against that. >> where is that line, though, alan, between our constitutional right to be protected against search and seizure of our property and information and the government's necessary right to obtain information to stop bad

people? >> well, you know, the originalists say you go back to 1793 and say what the framers had in mind. the framers couldn't have contemplated dna banks, we have to ask ourselves where that line should be drawn. now where i draw the line is externality versus internality. i don't want the government to know what my dna says about my jeanet genetics. i am less concerned with them taking pictures of me walking down the street without knowing that i made a phone call here or there. that maybe the line we can live with. the line between externally seeing you and then internally finding out more about you. it's not a clear line and even the externalities involve great intrusions by being able to put the dots together and figuring out the internalities by learning so much about the

externalities. >> i'm a little comforted that this entire debate has not centered on republicans on one side democrats on the other. i have friends that see this 180 degrees differently than me and i'm frankly comforted by that. i want to say alan and bill and steve thank you all for being here and what i do hope is maybe if ed snowden didn't do anything else, he will force us to take a good, long, hard look at ourselves as a country, as a government and decide what are we willing to give up. is it worth it? if we're giving it up to protect our freedom but we give up our freedom to give it, did we give up what we were supposed to be protecting? that will be the question. thank you all for being here. [ applause ] >> our pleasure. >> well, you go to the hospital to heal your wounds and ailments but the bill at the end costs you an arm and a leg. coming up, an eye opening report on why medical costs are so high and how obamacare is not really

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>> updating you now on the nsa leaker story governor huckabee has been discussing. surveillance programs is calling for snowed den a traitor. in a rare interview the former vice president subjected snowden could be a spy for china which is where he turned up after the scandal broke. they adopted support from iran. shiite controlled islamic republic is report theed to be sending 4,000 troops to assyria. the u.s. is getting ready for the civil war going on for two years now. more than 90,000 people have died. i am marianne rafferty now back to "huckabee" for the latest

headlines log on to foxnews.com. government plans to build a mall in the square. now back to huckabee. this summer the president is going to be touring the country, trying to sell obamacare all over again. well, could it be because polls continue to show that his healthcare overhaul is unpopular with most americans? a new fox news poll shows 55% oppose obamacare. that's compared to only 40% who are in favor of it. even members of congress including a lot of the democrats are contemplating quitting because of the premiums under the law. one of the problems of obamacare, though, and it doesn't even tackle a real issue, the outrageous hospital costs we face. let me take a look at you with some examples of what hospitals charge for medicines and supplies compared to what they would cost at the local drugstore or buying them online.

we bought this box of sterile gauze pads for 7.50 at a nearby drugstore but some hospitals charge patients $77 for them. this antibiotic retail here, for about $6 a tube. guess what hospitals charge for this same item? $108. you got a headache? i bet you do now after hearing about what the hospital is charging. well, you can get 100 of these pain reliever pills for 1.50 online. 100 for 1.50. hospitals mark them up 100 times their street costs. they charge 1.50 per pill. steven wrote a very special report for time magazine called bitter pill. why medical bills are killing us. well i spoke to him recently about why hospitals charge so

much. >> you spent 7 months trying to figure out why hospital costs were so high. where did that search take you? >> well it took me first and foremost to actual bills. i decided i didn't want to write some policy essay about healthcare and what i was concerned about is with all the debate in obamacare about who should pay for the high cost of healthcare, what kind of insurance should people have, how do we cover the high cost. i was concerned with why does it cost so much? so i took bills and looked at every item on the bill whether it was a charge of $13,000 for a cancer drug or $67 for a box of gauze pads and i traced who got all that money and how come and who is making out, you know, like a bandit and what i found is we basically had been living in two economies in this country for the last ten years. there's the economy where you and i know where people are hard pressed jobs are tight and money is tight and then there's the healthcare economy where

everybody is doing really well except maybe the nurses and the doctors but the people that sell the equipment, the people that make the drugs, the people that run the allegedly nonprofit hospitals are all making ridiculous amounts of money. >> so you mean the doctors who spend 12, sometimes 15 years just preparing to be a doctor are making less money. >> far less unless they got in the system so they started a clinic where they can send patients or they're consulting for a drug company, they're not making the big bucks. the guys who make the cat scan equipment or the pharmaceutical sales men and executive, the hospital administrators, your local nonprofit hospital without even knowing it, i can tell you that the guy who runs your local hospital in little rock makes well over $1,000,000 and a half dollars a year. >> far more than the physicians are making who are saving

peoples lives. >> you know of all the people you want to get the most money for in the system, it's the guy who you are looking up at when you go into the emergency room. >> absolutely. >> or the operating room. >> will obamacare have an impact on lowering the cost? does it ooen address it. >> no, no and no. it will not lower the cost. if anything it will raise the cost but the reason obamacare was able to be passed is because all of the people who are making all the money are going to make more money because there's going to be more patients. >> so it's not going to help the consumer nor is it going to help the physician or the nurse. >> well it's going to help the consumer who will be forced to have the insurance protection that, you know, that many people think they should have. it will help that consumer. it will help someone who has a pre-existing condition because they will now be able to buy health insurance but because they'll be able to buy health insurance the premiums for everybody else are going to go

up and for people that can't afford it the government is going to subsidize the premiums. the costs are going to go up. it does nothing to attack the $13,000 price for the drug transfusion or the $77 price for the gauze pads. it does nothing to deal with it. >> wow, when we come back, i want to ask you about something called the charge master. i find that to be one of the

test.

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we're back with steven brill. i mentioned before the break something called the charge master. it sounds like a character out of ghost busters. the key master. what is the charge master? >> it's this thing nobody knows about except if you're in the medical world everybody knows about it. it's this massive three, four, 10,000 item list of the list prices that every hospital charges. so for a tylenol pill they might charge 1.50 even though it costs them less than a penny. for a transfusion of a drug it could be 10 or 15,000. those are the list prices. they use that to tell insurance companies we'll give you a discount off of the list prices. that sounds sort of seminumber. every item has a list price and you go into the car dealer and

they lower it except there's no consistency for any of the prices. no hospital administrator can tell you how they got the prices. it's not based on cost or based on anything. it's really a symbol of the fact that this isn't the marketplace. they feel no obligation to explain it and they can't because they literally can't explain it. >> this is like the charge master might say okay, we're going to charge $10,000 for a heart stint in this hospital. another hospital might charge 5,000. >> it would be 2,000 at another hospital and yet the hospital where it's 2,000 could charge six times what the other hospital charges for something else. there's no rhyme or reason. >> no standard. >> no and it's all unaccountable. no one ever had to explain it because if you're in the marketplace the seller has all the power. >> and the patient doesn't pay attention because generally the person who is receiving the

service, the patient is not the one actually paying the bill. the insurance company, the third party, is that part of the real problem we have. >> except in the crazy world of healthcare economics the patients that do pay the bills are the ones that don't have insurance. in your home state there are probably thousands of people being sued by hospitals for charge master prices, the high prices, that causes 61% of the personal bankruptcies in this country. so there's no accountability. there's no rational for it and nobody can explain it but nobody has to explain it. now that, you know, deductibles are getting higher and people are going to go into insurance exchanges, everybody is starting to think about what healthcare costs because more people have more skin in the game. when they see those prices, you know, there maybe the kind of disgust that will cause things to change. >> how do we fix this? this is out of control and nobody can really even

understand it. it's like a language only the -- >> we are the only country in the world that decided we want to live under the illusion that we can treat medical care, as if it's a real marketplace, you know where the buyer has any power. the buyer doesn't have any power. every other country interseeds. the $13,000 bill for the drug transfusion for the cancer care patient in my article, that would be 4 or $5,000 in germany or france or england and yet the drug companies, they sell like crazy there. they make a lot of money on 4 or $5,000. so there has to be some intersessiinte intercession in the marketplace so there's real power, the buyer has. where it begins has to be the kind of, you know, complete transparency i intended to do with the article. >> is that enough or will it be a second step of government regulation. >> the first step is telling me

i'm supposed to pay the $13,000 for the drug or the $77 for the gauze pad. that's nice. that's good. but if i don't have any choice, that's not enough. something has -- there have to be regulations. oddly enough, the only entity that really has power is, you know, medicare. they do it really efficiently unless your viewers get all excited, i should underscore the fact that medicare is actually mostly run by the pirate sector. there are like 600 government employees and something like 8,000 employees in the private sector that do a wonderful job administering healthcare. >> thank you for the article bitter pill. it is a bitter pill. appreciate you being here. >> happy to be here governor. >> thank you. >> one of adele's biggest hits like you've never heard it

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they is become an internet phenomena taking chart topping hits and g they've become an internet phenomenon. their videos received over 25 million views online. they have a brand-new cd called "piano guys 2." please welcome the piano guys. >> thank you very much. >> stephen, you guys started out doing some of these youtube videos. it took off like crazy. what was the genesis of the piano guy? >> it started out at the piano store. paul anderson wanted to promote the sales of pianos in a unique way. he started recruiting musicians to play song to promote the sale of his piano. >> it took off like crazy. >> it was wonderful. we started selling less and less pianos and making more and more videos. >> john, are you surprised how youtube turned something like

what you guys do into an international event? >> all i can say is youtube works. suddenly we are touring all over the world. we are just a couple of dads. they call us cul de sac cool. we pull up to the show in our decked-out minivan. >> what are you going to do today? >> a little "rolling in the deep" version we did with jupiter from volt. >> this particular cut received over 12 million views on youtube. pretty phenomenal. let's hear it. >> all right. ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ applause ] >> the piano guys! thank you guys so very much for being here. we love it. hope people will get the music at amazon or on itunes.

remember the piano guys. thanks for joining us. hope you have a wonderful week. until next time from new york this is mike how many simple ingredients does your dog food have? 30? 20? new purina one beyond has 9. the simplified purina one beyond. learn more about these wholesome ingredients at purinaone.com

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