another 6:00 on michelle dewberry and this is dewbs& co. let me ask you this. the word accountability. what does that mean to you , where do you think mean to you, where do you think the bookstall , for example, when the bookstall, for example, when something goes .7 the reason i'm something goes? the reason i'm asking is the head of housing association that rented out the home where that two little two year old boy was seen . the story

year old boy was seen. the story he died due to mould in his house at will. the boss of that trust is saying he will not resign . and as a family, resign. and as a family, thinking where is the level of accountability? is it if you the boss of an organisation where something wrong. well on your head bed or not. and as the 620 calls for international standards proof of vaccination . standards proof of vaccination. what do you make to this? there's this kind of more covered passport by the back door ? should we have to prove door? should we have to prove that we've done this test? that test and this vaccine and that vaccine ? if we want to circle vaccine? if we want to circle here freely around? i definitely say no to that. but where do you stand and the number of people on long term sickness right now has risen to two and a half million . how on earth has it million. how on earth has it gotten high? do you think the bar is too? what constitutes being off sick? what about for the duration that people are off and just how easy is it get signed off? what are your thoughts on that and will planning to go to qatar this

weekend perhaps you were one of you are not planning to have a beer during your match because if you are those plans have been well and truly scuppered the consumers are saying no beer dunng consumers are saying no beer during the football matches in stadiums unless of course you're rich and have one of the hospitality boxes . but what do hospitality boxes. but what do you say to this? loads of people are really upset some other people are saying come on, it's a muslim country. them's the rules. on with it. what's rules. get on with it. what's says is you. well, of all of that, to with toby young and joe phillips. let's bring phillips. first, let's bring ourselves to space with ourselves up to space with tonight's latest headlines . it's tonight's latest headlines. it's 6:10. i'm on as in the 6b newsroom labour leader sir keir starmer has accused the government of locking the country into an economic doom loop. the comments follow the autumn statement yesterday . autumn statement yesterday. meanwhile, the institute for fiscal studies is warning the fall in living standards will be the largest since records began

. jeremy hunt has defended his plans as the right thing to do . plans as the right thing to do. but sir keir says the fiscal measures will hurt the most . the measures will hurt the most. the government yesterday having done huge damage to the economy , has huge damage to the economy, has gone after working people with stealth taxes and council tax and done nothing about non—dom the super rich who are not paying the super rich who are not paying their taxes in this country and they've got no plan for growth. so they're looking see they do loop we would have put a plan for on the table but actually towards the challenges of tomorrow a sexual predator has admitted to the murder law graduate zara elina who was brutally kicked and stomped on and left dead. mcsweeney also admitted to sexually zara elina as she walked home a night out in east london last summer. the 35 year old from dagenham was found by passers by with severe head injuries. she later died in hospital . mcsweeney had only hospital. mcsweeney had only recently released from prison and had targeted more than one

woman before. detective chief dave wellens says the met are committed to tackling violence against women. jordan mcsweeney has pleaded guilty to the most serious offences . has pleaded guilty to the most serious offences. his has pleaded guilty to the most serious offences . his clearly serious offences. his clearly very dangerous individual and his guilty plea today means that he is certain to serve a considerable period of time behind bars . a coroner has ruled behind bars. a coroner has ruled that police errors contributed the deaths of a mother and daughter who were killed by their daughters, a strange husband. an inquest how in 2018 running would repeatedly call the police afterjanse spent and attacked her at a restaurant in. he followed her her mother home. but officers to reach them in time before they were murdered. the family said matthews had previously contacted about her abusive relationship , but little abusive relationship, but little action was taken. west midlands police has apologised to the family civil servants in the home border force department for

transport defra are to take industrial action in a dispute over pay . the pcc union been over pay. the pcc union been calling for a 10% pay rise for its members but this was rejected by the government. it's planning one month of what it calls sustained industrial action for mid december will affect ports borders and other areas of transport. royal mail workers have also announced a further of strikes in the run up to christmas . the communication to christmas. the communication workers union walk out on six days in december including christmas eve in addition to the four days coming up over the next two weeks. royal mail has called the action damaging the football supporters association has catl over its u—turn on alcohol. it comes fifa announced that beer will not be sold. the islamic countries world cup stadiums. the fsa criticised the timing of the decision , which timing of the decision, which comes just two days before the tournament kicks off . fans had tournament kicks off. fans had previously been told they would be allowed to drink within

ticketed perimeter of each much . sou ticketed perimeter of each much. sou have held a joint entry in response to north korea's latest launch. the exercise firing against targets , missile against targets, missile launches. against targets, missile launches . a senior us government launches. a senior us government official . north korea launches. a senior us government official. north korea had fired a missile that can hit many many around the world. vice president kamala harris condemned the launch, calling it a brazen violation of multiple u.n. resolutions . a swedish resolutions. a swedish prosecutor has said damage the nord stream pipelines in the baltic sea in september was caused an act of sabotage . caused an act of sabotage. investigators have found traces of explosives at the sites of . of explosives at the sites of. the damaged gas pipelines linking and germany. swedish and danish authorities are investigating in full holes on both nord stream one and two lines. russia has claimed british navy personnel responsible. allegations a.p. denies the royal air force says

it's found unacceptable behaviour in the red arrows after allegations of sexual assault , after allegations of sexual assault, bullying and misogyny . assault, bullying and misogyny. the force says the investigation has found no criminal activity , has found no criminal activity, but disciplinary action had been including dismissals. it's more than 40 members of staff gave evidence the inquiry. the team has since received training in unacceptable behaviour . twitter unacceptable behaviour. twitter has temporarily closed its offices amid a wave staff resignations. measure was reportedly prompted by fears disgruntled staff could sabotage the company. hundreds of employees are believed to have quit after owner elon musk asked them to sign up for long hours at high intensity or leave. musk has . at high intensity or leave. musk has. he at high intensity or leave. musk has . he isn't worried about the has. he isn't worried about the resignations because the best people he are staying. twitter the offices will reopen . on tv, the offices will reopen. on tv, onune the offices will reopen. on tv, online and dab+ radio. this is 6b news. it's back to chiefs in

co . co. thanks that well i'm with you right through till 7:00 this evening. keeping me company here in the studio, we got the political commentator, former adviser to the lib dems , adviser to the lib dems, phillips and toby young , who's phillips and toby young, who's the director of free speech . the director of free speech. good evening, both of you . and good evening, both of you. and you know the drill as well. don't you on this it's not don't you on this show, it's not just about all three. it's about you at home as well. what's on your tonight ? i want of your mind tonight? i want all of your mind tonight? i want all of your get touch your thoughts you can get touch with 6bviews@6bnews.uk is with me. 6bviews@6bnews.uk is the or you can tweet me if the email or you can tweet me if that's your thing at news. that's your thing at 6b news. phil says michelle. i absolutely loved show at southampton night. yes, so did it's always nice to be out and about isn't especially in a pub but i did i also very much enjoyed that too . lots of you getting in touch about the alcohol in qatar . i do about the alcohol in qatar. i do have to say this one has made me

chuckle . always say i'm not chuckle. always say i'm not going to qatar but if i was, i mean would i be able to last 90 minutes of a football game without having a drink? should have the last 90 minutes of a football game without drink. tell me your thoughts that and so covid passports . we so calls covid passports. we about to see some kind of internet digital coordinated effort and is the right thing or are you like me? you think it's all a little bit too much a step the wrong direction if . you will the wrong direction if. you will let me know all your thoughts on that. but first up, the boss of a housing says he will not after the death of a two year old little boy our a shock he he died. you might have seen these pictures by the way of his . it pictures by the way of his. it was awful. it was covered mould and he little boy suffered a respiratory illness due to the conditions of this was a flat in rochdale and flat was rented from rochdale borough wide housing association and his parents by the way i multiple times about mould in the flat

spots . the boss there reckons spots. the boss there reckons that he still got the backing of his board is going nowhere and is staying . his board is going nowhere and is staying. but his board is going nowhere and is staying . but should he be is staying. but should he be now? of course he shouldn't . and now? of course he shouldn't. and i think, you know, this whole that you asked at the beginning, michel, about accountability, particularly accountable policy in public life . you know, i was in public life. you know, i was just before we came on air just looking back over some of the things. and these will be familiar with all of us. and we've talked about it, hillsborough, 6renfell , the post hillsborough, 6renfell, the post office scandal that saw postmasters having to go to high court. paul venables our up on the screen by the way sorry just in case you're watching wondering what that is sorry continued 6eorge. so paula venables, she was the ceo of the post at the time. those people as , you know, had to go to as, you know, had to go to court. expensive, lost court. very expensive, lost their and their their livelihoods and their reputations . sharon shoesmith, reputations. sharon shoesmith, head of children's services at hanngey. head of children's services at haringey . she sued for wrongful haringey. she sued for wrongful dismissal and, was awarded a six figure for wrongful figure sum for wrongful dismissal after the baby pay scandal . what is so striking

scandal. what is so striking about this and? this, mr. swarbrick, is that he has the backing of his board . well, they backing of his board. well, they should all resign , not just him should all resign, not just him . they should all resign because they've come up with these weasel words of oh, you know, it's a tragedy. we're really sorry. lessons will be learnt many times. have we heard that ? many times. have we heard that? and these people go on to get job quite often in the public sector. you know you could replicate this across country at health trusts local government and others but you have to look also at the example people if indeed we looked politicians for example at the accountability westminster which is known suella braverman home secretary resigned over a ministerial breach reappointed by rishi sunak's. six days later, boris himself no stranger or a complete stranger, to rather accountability, trying to the back of his cronies. so you're

saying it's wrong for right from the very top? this is absolutely absolutely with that toby . yes. absolutely with that toby. yes. i mean, it's not if we're not holding people account, but we're holding people accountable for the wrong thing. so the free speech union earlier this year had to come the defence of a had to come to the defence of a woman who was forced to leave her working for a housing association because she'd stood association because she'd stood as a candidate for a christian and that party said in its manifesto that it believed could only be between a man and a woman, and because she'd stood a manifesto which included orthodox christian belief, she was forced out of this housing association. so what do you mean? how was she forced? she was fired. she sacked. she was sacked for tweeting for. but when they discovered that she'd stood as a candidate when she put her manifesto on her twitter feed this factor. yeah so if your housing is in directly responsible for the death of a you don't have to resign . but if you don't have to resign. but if you don't have to resign. but if you say you don't believe in gay

marriage that's it. you're out in uk. why? what is driving the i think you know these days people regard offence as a greater sin than being a deadbeat. greater sin than being a deadbeat . and you mentioned by deadbeat. and you mentioned by way sharon's shoes may if this is of course you mention as well baby pay and what you might recall and that in about 2008 she got fired. i think she got fired live on television by ed balls. that's right yeah. and a press conference and if you think back to what happened with her mean that baby case it was something which shocked the nafion something which shocked the nation still does i would argue and to your point it was supposed to be this turning you know, a turning circle , whatever know, a turning circle, whatever at society where at this point in society where all things going to change all things are going to change and didn't. it's all and it didn't. it's all continued. but then what happened her was happened with her is she was hounded, really hounded. was hounded, really hounded. she was front news. was sort of like front news. it was sort of like you got no shame and all the rest . and i think she rest. and she did. i think she got about 600 grounded the because variety different because a variety different payments of things payments and one of the things that try albuterol rules was

actually kind of whole core of pubuc actually kind of whole core of public opinion. that's right that's not really you should base your employment policy on. no and i mean she she won the compensation for being basically used as a scapegoat but nevertheless you she was the boss of children's services just as this swarbrick man is the boss of the rochdale housing association and you do sort of thing i mean can think of anybody apart from allegra stratton who was briefly you know communications at downing street how can you think but can you think it was doomsaying and she genuinely sorry embarrassed and upset but you think of anybody who's resigned with recently . must be lots of people recently. must be lots of people some viewers now who was visibly angry might the may well be out there but you know, there are too many cases like this and it's revolving doors of it's the revolving doors of people who go on to get another

job, a similar sector. you know, they they c oversee terrible terrible behave as in terrible practises in health trusts, maternity services. i'm thinking of one right down the road from where i in east kent which being absolutely castigated in various reports but you know as said you look at hills but you heard what the case said summing up at the 6renfell last week about the merry round of blame . i've got merry round of blame. i've got an example on lord agnew who was . oh yes, that's a good point . . oh yes, that's a good point. yes. public procurement. he resigned all the covid loans frauds, which he thought the government hadn't done enough to prevent a meltdown load on him because we lost 39 billion. well, some of is that a good example was hancock but i don't think that he resigned respectfully necessarily out of choice today . some people here choice today. some people here are saying if you're the boss of an organisation and something like this happens on your watch , something like this case , then

, something like this case, then you're saying never mind just resigning. you think that these people should be subject to criminal charges. what are you to that? let's not make it. i don't wanna get themselves. no, no, no. let's not make it specific to this case. i do think there you know, and i'm not a lawyer i think there not a lawyer but i think there is possibly case for civil action against the housing association for failure of duty care. but you know , you would care. but you know, you would need to have a lawyer on who knows that maybe there's a lawyer watching or listening who can advise on but yes people should be held and accountable . should be held and accountable. i was also thinking about the boss of the ferry company that sacked all their workers, breaking every appeal in breaking every appeal in breaking all employment . so sat breaking all employment. so sat there in front of a of commons committee hearing and said he'd do it again. but he's still in a job. yeah his point, if i remember off the top of my head, was basically saying that he knew he wouldn't get. the corporate restructuring through

the just decided to the unions. so just decided to bypass it all and basically start again from scratch. and that was the theme of what he was saying, is breaking was saying, which is breaking the is clear cut, the well, if it is clear cut, then why isn't that clear cut in terms of consequence then , if terms of consequence then, if you will if you are saying you will say if you are saying this, categorically the law, this, i categorically the law, why isn't he criminally, legally responsible and i seem to remember the government at the time and i can't for life of me think which prime minister it or what possible business secretary or employment secretary said oh we will hold them to account. well he's still in position . well he's still in position. charles is saying again you echo this point charles never resign. if something like this people should be prosecuted. you're can you imagine it was a private landlord that had the situation and one of my other viewers has written in at the start of the programme saying, well if i had mould fix it mould in my house and fix it myself so is it always someone else's responsibility ? but i else's responsibility? but i guess point to that is the guess the point to that is the case. you've just said if had mould in your house, you fix it. if not the freehold , if

if you're not the freehold, if your property, why would stop? but apart from that, this is not just a little bit of dump i mean, we've all seen the horrible pictures the awful pictures and we all know that in many, many cases caused by condensation because people don't open the windows. they have a heating on they have tumble dryers on that and whatnot going on. and so there's a build up . whatnot going on. and so there's a build up. but when you see whatnot going on. and so there's a build up . but when you see the a build up. but when you see the level the mould in that flat in that house and you are not allowed to touch if it's a housing association and you , you housing association and you, you know, you keep calling, you keep calling for help and the little boy had been ill time and time again. yeah i'll tell you, i've got a two year old boy . that is got a two year old boy. that is just after i'd probably be in prison, quite frankly, for what i would, if anything like that happened , to my little kid. but happened, to my little kid. but why is it like let's go back to your point. you like you were talking about this public outrage , kind of this court of outrage, kind of this court of pubuc outrage, kind of this court of public opinion . why do you think public opinion. why do you think it has got so in terms of i

don't know that fella that he's just said something wrong, get him 6et him out. fired him out. get him out. fired lynch which was it got lynch which on why was it got ridiculous i think it's as though we have a public morality again in the same way that we did when we were a much more christian society so we had a kind of public in this country for hundreds of years in which you have if you if you said anything blasphemous which offended christians sacred beliefs you could get into trouble . and then there was trouble. and then there was a penod trouble. and then there was a period of freedom in which there weren't many speech restrictions. there was no dominant public morality was a kind of liberal period from the 1960s onwards. but now we've seen the emergence of a new pubuc seen the emergence of a new public morality. it's secular but it contains within it secular blasphemy laws. and if you say things like i believe marriage should be between a man and a woman, you're offending against the secular values of this kind of militant, these militant enforcers of public morality . but don't you think, morality. but don't you think, toby, that it's disproportion it? and i mean, we are all part

of it. are having this of it. we are having this conversation now viewers conversation now, the viewers and taking part in it. and listeners taking part in it. and i know sometimes, you know, views are extreme and i have been subject to quite a lot of abuse from appearing on this program , different views to program, different views to other people . but the what i other people. but the what i mean about the proportionality is that there's an awful lot there's an awful lot of twitter there's an awful lot of twitter there's an awful lot of twitter there's a lot of lazy journalism saying there's been a twitter storm about such and such a you don't know whether everybody on twitter is actually real or not. and b , you know, there's an and b, you know, there's an awful lot of people actually couldn't care less why the corporations because i think you're quite right, joe. you know , it's such a minority know, it's such a minority number of people that are talking about. then it's the talking about. but then it's the corporation i blame these corporation i blame on these corporations . i think what corporations. i think what happens few random send a happens is a few random send a couple of tweets or you have an orchestrated in fact actually i'll say about this as well we had a campaign started against us and i'm going off topic but

we had twitter campaign started against us before we even launched by the way apparently hateful before we've even said anything then happens anything and then what happens is these people out these coordinated social media things and these brands listen to them why . i, i think it's partly why. i, i think it's partly because the people who run these corporations exaggerate the importance social media, particularly twitter . they think particularly twitter. they think it's the public square . i think it's the public square. i think may maybe it's just a you know we have to adjust to living a society with social media the moment social media has far more influence than it should have because people see it as a kind of window , the kind of of window, the kind of collective unconscious when they realise it's just a few rabid activists, they'll take it and. if we actually regarded most of it the same way we used to it the same way as we used to regard heavily lined paper greening and capital letters , greening and capital letters, you know, we wouldn't actually it seriously or take it so severe. i think toby is right. no companies are terrified. they want to be seen to be responsive

. but actually sometimes you to say, look, it's a storm in a teacup . and i do think some of teacup. and i do think some of it goes back to under—resourcing and lazy journalism where people will go, oh, look this is creating a storm that , must be a creating a storm that, must be a story. so it becomes a when actually most people just carrying on about their business and not caring i think there's also a degree of you know, advertisers are obsessed with safety and the big the companies they work for it's now not enough them to make a profit for shareholders to produce a good they need to promote their values as well. it's got to it's got to go beyond just kind of making a profit. they need to be seen as good as somehow bringing about a better world. and so they talk about sustainability and equity , diversity and and equity, diversity and inclusion and reducing injustice . so that's all part of their remit now. yeah, mean a lot remit now. yeah, i mean a lot it's meaningless them it's meaningless a lot of them are like massive hypocrite. so they value as well. so they also use value as well. so i remember a brand i think it was ikea , i remember right at

was ikea, i remember right at the start of this hopefully last moved on from this point ikea was saying they didn't to advertise with 6b news but something about we weren't augned something about we weren't aligned with our humanist values and then it came out a bit down the line that one of their bosses had been in trouble for putting cameras in their staff toilets. well bit weird. i'll give you a good example that. give you a good example of that. zdf, a television station, has a comedy show which has just compared elon musk to 60ebbels and, the founder of zdf, actually worked for 60ebbels dunng actually worked for 60ebbels during second world war. it's all very odd. well be fine. now, elon musk has taken over twitter. it's going to be much nicer to be. he's given the stuff tv. you're into twitter. you'll know this is given the stuff. a bit of an ultimatum as well. if you don't like where i leave and off gone of leave and off gone because of that. well to their own is that it'll be interesting to see what they you're not they do and if you're not on twitter the way don't underestimate power underestimate the power of twitter been twitter we've just been discussing there discussing a little bit there is a platform by some people but in my view it's got disproportionate influence in

terms of the outcomes that it helps to achieve some good also some very bad if you ask me here's mark because just emails in michelle ask for my views but you only read out the view as if they're in line with yours that's not true at all. but you didn't tell me what view was. mark so tell me, have view and i'll read it out. about that i'll read it out. how about that and way, just to touch on and by the way, just to touch on the says she says the point that joe says she says she's getting for she's been getting abuse for some things that she says some of the things that she says on this programme. all this channel an f, why? channel just an f, why? absolutely do not condone that? i believe in respectful disagreement very often i have to say i don't agree with each other each to own all other for each to their own all have own opinions and have our own opinions and entitled to them. so let us respect fully disagree. that's what . i'm dewbs& co what we like. i'm dewbs& co right. it's to take a quick break. when we come back, i will some thoughts, mike, get some of your thoughts, mike, get your view because i'm your view in because i'm fascinated now you've got me interested what is your view that out tell me that i'm not reading out tell me and i to talk to you guys as well about covid passports, the

620 wants international standards proof of standards for proof of vaccination and testing . i mean, vaccination and testing. i mean, come off it . am i wrong? you come off it. am i wrong? you tell me and i'll see you in a couple of minutes .

hello there. welcome back to chips and co with me michelle dewberry. right through 7:00 this evening and here in the studio with me, the political commentator and former to the lib lib dems phillips and lib dem lib dems phillips and toby young , the head of the free toby young, the head of the free speech. welcome back, everybody writes, i want to talk to you about covid passports . do i use about covid passports. do i use them on that kind agrees with that whole concept. do you think it's absolutely fine basically to have all these systems checking up this your checking up on this your although whether it's your testing vaccine or testing or your vaccine or whatever i'm asking whatever the reason i'm asking is the 620 has a statement and a closing statement which is

calling for proof of vaccinations. for instance , vaccinations. for instance, travel . toby, i'm vaccinations. for instance, travel. toby, i'm going to pick up with you on this one of the things that concern me, and i'll give it as a quote, was the comment let's have a digital health certificate acknowledged by health . if you've by the world health. if you've been or tested properly , then been or tested properly, then you can move around and sorry. yeah the implication is that if you don't have your electronic vaccine certificate on your mobile phone, then you won't be able to leave your home. i mean, it's very sinister. i mean, i we should say that this this isn't going to be introduced in the next few weeks is an expression of supposedly good intentions by the direction of travel, direction of travel. so what they want is the world health organisation next time it meets to incorporate this new regulation and its international regulations which are binding in international law. so it's a very sinister development and something we should robustly resist . what do you think is resist. what do you think is which i it's not it's not

something that should resist is this it goes back to 2005 when the world health organisation had an agreement, notifiable and transmissible diseases and some people will remember carrying i think they were yellow cards that you used to have in your to show that you've been against tetanus and rabies and various other things depending on which country you going to. so we all do that if we want to travel . do that if we want to travel. this is not specifically covid. my this is not specifically covid. my interpretation of this is that they've said the passport for covid worked quite we should look about how we can use that digital technology in order to enable people who've got the relevant vaccinations to travel more safely. and the argument is that actually if you safe to travel then you can but who decides who's safe to travel because you know what the

notifiable disease is all that set out by the world will go. but if you use covid, for example as just one example, who will determine and whatsoever provide a vaccine ? who provide a vaccine? who determines? oh, she she's. all right, she's on a vaccine. oh, no now she's only had one. she should have had to know. she should have had to know. she should have had three. one of them was three weeks too long ago. you you back ago. you know, if you come back from somewhere, suddenly from somewhere, you suddenly pick . it is a noticed pick up tb. it is a noticed viral disease , so it has to be viral disease, so it has to be notified to the local authority. similarly you know, diphtheria, which we've been talking about, which we've been talking about, which has been an outbreak at where the refugees have been illegally kept in detention . you illegally kept in detention. you know, there are many other illnesses, ebola instance, that's a notifiable disease . and that's a notifiable disease. and i think, you know, it's ever so easy to go down, think about, oh , who's going to end up with this? but we think anything and we think of having the we didn't think of having the jumps that we wanted that we had to have in order to go to places on holiday . to have in order to go to places on holiday. this to have in order to go to places on holiday . this prevents on holiday. if this prevents lockdown , surely it would be

lockdown, surely it would be much better to say this is this is what i worry about in society. i and it's almost like the boiling analogy. if you put a frog in the water, you gradually hope it doesn't realise it's being killed and you just then well if this prevents us all being locked down again, then i will celebrate . how have we become celebrate. how have we become a situation for this utopia where just kind of i feel inch by, inch by inch, by inch by inch. we're accepting things that be just unheard of, we're accepting things that be just unheard of , unaccepted just just unheard of, unaccepted just few years ago, we've almost accepted as normal. yeah, well, that would be the lesser of two evils then. at least the word lock is in our house again. yeah. like frog in yeah. i feel like the frog in the and the water has almost reached point. i mean joe said earlier outbreaks of earlier we have outbreaks of diphtheria in you know immigration facilities the uk. but this this vaccine passports international vaccine passports won't prevent that if you travel to this country illegally although i mean it's the only way you can travel after passports have introduced. passports have been introduced. if you haven't been vaccinated

will travel . you know it's will be to travel. you know it's all very well to say there are these diseases we want to prevent their spread better to prevent their spread better to prevent their spread better to prevent their than go into another lockdown . but do we another lockdown. but do we really trust organised nations like the who. to limit these vaccine passports just diseases like diphtheria and ebola? of course. and of course, they they'll they'll insist that we all have to have vaccine, passports and including be vaccinated against covid, even though we now know that being vaccinated against covid doesn't in any way stop you from getting infected , infecting other infected, infecting other people. what the point, toby, where is your evidence to say that the w.h.o. where is your evidence to say that the who. is untrustworthy? well they they they advice they gave during the pandemic which first of all they said that the outbreak of covid 19 in china was nothing to worry . and then they announced it was an emergency. first they said we shouldn't worry wearing masks

because they were worried about masks running out. and then they said, oh no, we've changed our minds. you have to wear masks. said, oh no, we've changed our minds. like have to wear masks. said, oh no, we've changed our minds. like and to wear masks. said, oh no, we've changed our minds. like and also 'ear masks. said, oh no, we've changed our minds. like and also the masks. said, oh no, we've changed our minds. like and also the shows. it feels like and also the show refuses to recommend nice the existence of taiwan for fear alienating its chinese in the chinese communist when it's not an organisation. i trust to protect our freedoms. quite frankly, i think it's easy to get wound up about this but i think this is looking at the possibility of using technology to help. i when we went in to look actually before we went into lockdown in this country but when covid was going rampant around europe we were allowing free movement of people and people coming into this country . we know that there were superspreader because . it was superspreader because. it was i mean, we hadn't got the vaccine and but we weren't even stopping people coming when . we knew it people coming when. we knew it was spreading. well, i just find it fascinating, this whole kind of notion, what if this is what it's going take to stop us

it's going to take to stop us being in our house again, it might not a bad thing. might not be a bad thing. nobody's me house nobody's locking me in my house again. wouldn't again. it wouldn't happen. i just wouldn't. wouldn't. i'm just i wouldn't. i wouldn't. i'm sorry listen. i think sorry i wouldn't listen. i think a lot of parents to me this christmas said oh got christmas and said oh we've got these lockdown tier these tier this lockdown tier this thank you you're that this no thank you if you're that terrified stay at home terrified fine stay at home everyone else get on. one thing i've been wondering, michelle, you chickens and you know that chickens and turkeys currently because you know that chickens and turkey�*outbreakently because you know that chickens and turkey�*outbreak of ly because you know that chickens and turkey�*outbreak of avian)ecause you know that chickens and turkey�*outbreak of avian flu.use of the outbreak of avian flu. and that's why we have a shortage of eggs. and we know we have shortage shortage of have shortage of a shortage of eggs, isn't it where eggs, isn't it isn't it where we're to have shortage we're going to have a shortage of turkeys come this christmas maybe. wondering maybe. well, i've been wondering whether has been maybe. well, i've been wondering wheth

thinking who's mock what have i missed mark. no you didn't get back in touch with me. you might have switched off because i didn't out the didn't read his email out in the first told first time. if you've not told your thoughts when back, your thoughts when i come back, i you as about ito talk to you as well about long stick, how we ended up in this got 2.5 million this scenario got 2.5 million people out of work on long term sick . you tell me and i'll see sick. you tell me and i'll see you in a couple of minutes.

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with me michelle dewberry keeping you company till o'clock tonight where the political commentator and former adviser to the lib dems jo phillips , toby young, who's the phillips, toby young, who's the head of the free speech union. i want to talk to you about long term in the autumn statement yesterday, jeremy hunt laid out measures to get more people that are currently on benefits back into work because get this since

2019 the number of people claiming long term sickness has risen by half month by half a million, not half, 1000 minutes. most romans maybe it's friday. all the coverage , two weeks as all the coverage, two weeks as well. so i'm probably on holiday . good thing. anyway, what i saying? oh, yes. long term sick . what do you think's going on with their. right. there's two things here. there's people who are that we know there's a huge increase people are increase of, people who are off work long term sick, long term sick in our languages , eight sick in our languages, eight days, which is not actually very they're not necessarily benefits. so i think you need to of separate those two things you only go to on statutory benefits after six months i believe a lot of this will be to do with long covid a lot of it will be to do with people who haven't able to see consultant specialist sites even , 6ps, what have you because even, 6ps, what have you because of the backlog that's happened.

but interestingly one of the biggest cause is apparently of these people, particularly younger people who are off sick at the moment is back and skeletal pain . right. i'm just skeletal pain. right. i'm just going to just i'm just going to ask a blunt question . when you ask a blunt question. when you hear things like long depression back problems, don't worry a little bit that there a lot of people out there that have realised i there's an opportunity for me to say that i don't need to come into work my boss don't know how to prove it and heaven forbid he tries to prove i'm not depressed if i say i because you'll be a i am because you'll be in a tribunal quicker, a quick thing from you worry from quick land. so you worry about stuff like that. think about stuff like that. i think it's easy to sort of tar it's very easy to sort of tar everybody with the same brush . i everybody with the same brush. i mean, i know and i'm sure toby and, you know, people who got excruciating back problems and i think we dismiss it oh it's just

too bad but you don't get sympathy of to wait an awfully long time to see a specialist it can be totally debilitating i think there is whole area around mental health and i think in some ways we're sort of reaping the bad bits as well as the good bits of more open and talking about it which a good thing but i think we've now got into the problem the medic realising things that are just normal anxiety low mood and that sort of stuff. i mean nobody's is supposed to be happy 100% of the time every , single day of the time every, single day of the yean time every, single day of the year, every hour of the day. so i think there's a great danger of medical slicing some things which are part and parcel of normal human life or human emotions . i normal human life or human emotions. i don't think we should dismiss a bunch of things that , you know, easy to say, oh, that, you know, easy to say, oh, you've got a bad back because, actually, if you've got bulging discs or you've got sciatica or something . oh. can stop you something. oh. can stop you doing. yeah it can. but i also think at the same time there is an element of kind of personal

responsibility. it's all about bulging had death, bulging death's. i had a death, i throat open, a disc out i had my throat open, a disc out and, two, two things fused in the cage, put in. i was back at work in two weeks. i was up, i was out because what am i going to do? laid in my bed whingeing about my painful neck. i'm a painful and get on with it. that's what i think. yes. i mean, you know, you were mean, but, you know, you were lucky recovered lucky enough to have recovered from are people will from it. there are people will wait up. i'm in a lot of pain. i'll with it. what i'll just on with it. toby, what do think of this? do you do you think to of this? do you think a harsh? i'm think i'm being a bit harsh? i'm with the last time i can with you? i the last time i can remember being so ill that i felt i couldn't work was in 1987. i've had covid twice now worked, know usual ten hour worked, you know usual ten hour days, the through it, you days, all the through it, you know, it could example i think of why you and i are sceptical was this this story was in the mail a 37 year old i've seen who who managed to a doctor to sign a sick note because he's suffering from anxiety as a result of having to spend 30 pe

on plastic whenever he goes to asda and he says having to spend £1 a week on 630 body bags is causing him acute anxiety. he's too mentally unwell to work and that the person i blame is not this particular chance who sounds like he's trying it on but the doctor who signed the sick note i mean shouldn't doctors be a bit more responsible. okay, you want to get these well out of your to mail the time he's mail at the same time he's passing buck to toby the passing the buck to toby the mail has not spoke to the doctor the said he was had got the bloke said he was had got mental health it's quite clear that he's got some issues if he's stupid to actually take the bag back because their bags for life and they'll give it to you or actually take his own bags with him. i mean it's utterly ridiculous. this is man who apparently had been working on some in an initiative about landfill yet preventing landfill yet he's going out and buying things i mean he's not recycling his plastic. he's certainly not recycling. he's passed it by all thinking about his shopping. and

i you know, i think i don't you know, i just think that's of mail that's a typical sort of mail onune that's a typical sort of mail online story good lord, online story of good lord, aren't . i think it's very aren't people. i think it's very to be dismissive of people who have got genuine problems. and there are lots of people who waiting to see specialists , waiting to see specialists, doctors and consultants sometimes for inane, i'll call it dave just to protect you anonymity. they don't want to get him fired, he says. i work for the department of works and pensions and i've seen a massive in the number of people claiming long, sick or disabled the level of benefits higher than jobseeker's we save. and there is much less pressure to work work towards retired into the laboun he work towards retired into the labour. he goes on to say the government has introduced measures to timely limit claims to 12 months. if a claim is not classed as severely disabled. this has now created a new high a demand higher demand to be classed as severely disabled . classed as severely disabled. interesting thoughts. so actually you're saying that the system is encouraging people in

ways perhaps to be perhaps a than the maybe ah, who's this ? than the maybe ah, who's this? yeah, 6raham. he was saying i had two slip discs and i sorted it out, went to go see my physio and now i just go back to work and now i just go back to work and get on with it. there's between a slipped disc and bulging actually. well there you 90, bulging actually. well there you go, 6raham. don't mess with joe. she knows a thing or two about discs. i think i think the i mean sure that there are mean i'm sure that there are some genuine cases but the fact that an addition half a million people have been added to the long term cyclist since 2019. i mean the implication here is that suddenly people are getting ill for some mysterious reason it's because they became accustom to being paid to stay at home and not to work during the lockdown. this is one of the unintended, but totally foreseeable consequences of paying foreseeable consequences of paying people to stay at home and not work during a disaster or as lockdown policy. well, indeed , some of you are saying, indeed, some of you are saying, by the way, that you long term

sick and don't like sick and you don't like sentiments that trying sentiments that you're trying on. well, yeah, i would be frustrated if i was you, too. and i was genuinely ill. but at the end of the day, obviously, i don't guys, you're don't to you guys, if you're genuinely officially ill. but come all that there come on, we all know that there are people out there might are some people out there might even are even know some of that they are just it . perhaps, even know some of that they are just it. perhaps, as even know some of that they are just it . perhaps, as toby just trying it. perhaps, as toby says, they've got use be paid says, they've got use to be paid to at home. so those to stay at home. so those people, i would have some people, i would say, have some pride. the example pride. think about the example you're setting to your children some of the stories that i certainly read over the last few days. a little bit days. i think it's a little bit embarrassing, actually. why would live life would you want to live your life like however , do like that? but however, do appreciate it if you are indeed sick to work. it must sick and you go to work. it must beindeed sick and you go to work. it must be indeed frustrating you be indeed frustrating for you right . break. when we come back, right. break. when we come back, are you a boozer? i planning on going qatar or you going to going qatar or are you going to watch it if going to watch it? if you're going to qatar, won't drinking qatar, you won't be drinking dunng qatar, you won't be drinking during at least during the games, at least because drinking in the stadiums is much now been banned . is pretty much now been banned. what do you make to that? tell me and i'll you in a couple me and i'll see you in a couple of minutes .

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with michelle dewberry, keeping you company right through till 7:00 tonight with a political commentator and the former adviser to the lib dems phillips and toby young, dems, phillips and toby young, who's the head of free who's the head of the free speech union. lots of you guys writing in about this whole kind of sickness thing . quite of sickness thing. quite divided, actually. some of you saying that you do fit into that category. you'd love to go work, but you're not physically able and you're not appreciating people suggesting that you might be those or anything like that. but then flipside of it is lots people also getting in touch saying that you do know people who are the way we just described . anyway, let's just described. anyway, let's just pack that one for now, shall we? be courteous? are you planning to travel to qatar for the world cup? well this those people are

or might be there already if they to sit down and have a cheeky little beer during the game . no, the answer is they game. no, the answer is they cannot. game. no, the answer is they cannot . now, the selling of in cannot. now, the selling of in the world cup stadiums is basically being stopped. this is apparently due to pressure from the qatar royal family. joe do you make of this? they've had years since they were awarded the right to host the world cup. it's a bit wrong to announce it. you know, 48 hours before it's due to start and budweiser is one of the major sponsors. so i would expect there's going to be some legal action against fifa. i think it's another indication that this was a really bad there are lots of questions about why it was awarded even blatter former boss of fifa said it was a mistake . former boss of fifa said it was a mistake. but we're former boss of fifa said it was a mistake . but we're there former boss of fifa said it was a mistake. but we're there in this is about it. i mean, i think just to be clear, it's not about having a drink in the stadium whilst you're watching it on the concourse. but which fans had been told that they

could get drinks and now they can't drink and hospitality . can't drink and hospitality. what have you got to your ground? yeah, exactly . it's the ground? yeah, exactly. it's the boxes or the sort of the specialised special, whatever they call fans. and so something but know i think this i the only thing that you can say is it's a real shame and it's tainted football which is recession . you football which is recession. you can't drink beer no . no, no. can't drink beer no. no, no. it's a real shame that qatar and the way the whole thing is behaved. the way the whole thing is behaved . no, i don't think it's behaved. no, i don't think it's a shame that you can't drink been do a shame that you can't drink beer. do you make it beer. what do you make of it all? be well i've i've wanted go to every world cup since 1986 but i think this is the first one i actually don't want to go to the prospect of now queuing up predicted for in these fan zones for the privilege of being able to buy pint of budweiser for £12.12 not even even worth it or is it a pint what it says here . i think it it or is it a pint what it says here. i think it is 12 it or is it a pint what it says here . i think it is 12 £12. okay here. i think it is 12 £12. okay but limited to only four points.

so you unfortunately can't spend more than so you unfortunately can't spend more tha n £48 on beer after more than £48 on beer after queuing for hours in these fences. i mean, the they're putting the england fans in. are these essentially look like kind of industrial containers in which the air conditioning makes a noise like a jet taking off? it's 40 degrees in the day. i mean it sounds like hell on earth they i found all this conversation about the whole guitar thing quite because you've got a load of westerners going to a muslim country but yet want to desperately their way of living onto with the muslim country. so here course absolutely is not a problem if you're l6bt you know it's all legal to get married whatever, legal to get married whatever, legal to get married whatever, legal to drink all those kind of things. but it's not legal there. why it be the case that there. why it be the case that the westerners dictate that their culture should overtake their culture should overtake the qataris? why not defend the qataris culture? by the way, i'm just interested. tell you why i don't think it is. just interested. tell you why i don't think it is . it's a don't think it is. it's a i don't think it is. it's a i don't think it is. it's a i don't think it is a or the other. i think if you are to

host an internation event and one of the sponsors is a brewery company , you've gone down that company, you've gone down that route without at the very beginning. i mean, this yes, you're right. it is the first time a muslim country has hosted the world cup. but then they should have said from the outset, one of the stipulations that we will not allow alcohol . that we will not allow alcohol. yeah, but you can still sell of their products. well they will zero all. i'm not sure i blame the qataris for this. i blame fifa. you know , it's easy for me fifa. you know, it's easy for me to qatar. look there's an enormous amount of revenue at stake here. we have to bring in sponsors like budweiser. if do that, you have to let them sell beer. that, you have to let them sell beer . if we're that, you have to let them sell beer. if we're going to sell that, you have to let them sell beer . if we're going to sell the beer. if we're going to sell the international television , you international television, you need fans in the stadiums to create a bit of atmosphere. the qatari said the get go qatari have said from the get go they have been funded they should have been funded alcohol. to alcohol. yeah we're not going to treat than treat fans any differently than we own citizens. so we would our own citizens. so trying create these of trying to create these kind of bubbles national bubbles in which the national laws apply is insane bound laws don't apply is insane bound to field . i agree with to lead this field. i agree with

toby. mean, it fifa who who toby. i mean, it is fifa who who should for this should take the blame for this because they have just found this fascinating experiment because they have just found thihumanscinating experiment because they have just found thihumans psychology,ariment because they have just found thihumans psychology, because in humans psychology, because you've got all these people you've got all of these people on hand or all this or, on the one hand or all this or, it's wrong what they're doing about l6bt is wrong, what they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is whilst then simultaneously going to qatar and money , the qatari and taking money, the qatari state , for example, state broadcaster, for example, to go and comment on the games. and then when people are saying what you saw against what they're doing, are you taking they're doing, are you taking the qataris money then? oh, well, i'm going to raise well, yes, i'm going to raise awareness. you know, what are you going to do away , go away, you going to do away, go away, by way . it's awful. the lgbt by the way. it's awful. the lgbt are there's a kick. there's a corner. i mean sure . so you go corner. i mean sure. so you go there . the only thing i would there. the only thing i would say is actually because it is now being talked about and i don't mean by the overlap paid commentators who i agree should question whether they are taking a dodgy shilling or not i do think actually it might highlight some the things that people may didn't know about

before the world cup, but you know, we've had world cups in russia. we've world cups in japan. we've had them parts of the world where. the culture is very very different and says the dnnk very very different and says the drink ban is fair enough , but drink ban is fair enough, but the notification is where two legs, no doubt many fans have gone. if they'd have known this when they bought their tickets i found that fascinating and instances dube's drinking just as important as watching the football so that's it really john says in scotland alcohol is banned from our football stadiums you reckon it helps prevent in the stadium as john we've seen many times many times the effects of too much alcohol football supporters and as much as all itself the human rights abuse. as all itself the human rights abuse . i agree with that on abuse. i agree with that on alcohol , there's nothing wrong alcohol, there's nothing wrong with a cup of bovril and, one of those nuclear hot pies half time. if you ask me, i'm well, michael, says michelle in. life.

there's things that just go together eggs and bacon. beans and toast and football . and and toast and football. and been and toast and football. and beer. you're saying why on earth hold this tournament in a country that has no alcohol or no football ? why hold it in the no football? why hold it in the country? it's so hot . yeah well country? it's so hot. yeah well the planning a lot of games at night—time aren't there but i think still going think it's still going to be about although i'm going to be watching it. i'm going to be watching it. i'm going to be watching here watching the england games here , but i've it difficult to get excited seeing the people like gareth southgate , gary neville , gareth southgate, gary neville, gary lineker , they will begin gary lineker, they will begin with g virtue talking about lgb rights in qatar wearing, with g virtue talking about lgb rights in qatar wearing , their rights in qatar wearing, their one love armband . i think that's one love armband. i think that's going to stick in my core that they really care about that stuff. if they really want us to take their values serious , then take their values serious, then they take the more they have to take the more seriously than this. i completely your you completely hear your phil, you said, said said, michelle, you just said something . i'll be something stupid. i'll be honest. well, won't the honest. well, it won't be the first time you've just. michelle, said michelle, you've just said muslims all world bringing,

muslims all the world bringing, their way of life . the west . yet their way of life. the west. yet you expect the west not to then take their way of life to qatar. fair enough, joe. toby, that's all i've got time for. thank you very much. thank you. at home, look what i've got, everyone . a look what i've got, everyone. a nice chill pulled wise . it's not nice chill pulled wise. it's not for me. cheers. oh, next is nigel farage? whatever you're doing, have a wonderful weekend. i'm off next week. but a family time . so i'll see you after time. so i'll see you after then. but for now. cheers. sorry about that. if you are indeed going to be qatar, hard luck. see you next week. hello there. i'm greg. you has the welcome our latest broadcast from the met office frosty for some western areas tonight night fever rain expected in the western east on saturday and blustery on sunday. low pressure dominates initially, however, a weak of high pressure for a time as we into saturday before low pressure returns from the atlantic for the rest of the weekend and into the of next week. so the changeable theme

continues further across parts of scotland in particular through friday evening into the hours of saturday. the risk of some further flooding here, dry conditions across the far west turning chilly. conditions across the far west turning chilly . the early hours, turning chilly. the early hours, minus three or minus four across the countryside in northern ireland. so mist and fog, patches developing not quite as cold elsewhere around six or seven celsius, but a cloudy damp start to the day across eastern of scotland, down the east coast of scotland, down the east coast of england, they slowly pushing a little bit further inland as the morning progresses. best of the morning progresses. best of the across central and the sunshine across central and western areas initially, but through the afternoon a band of rain start to in rain will start to move in across ireland, turning across northern ireland, turning heavy by later in the day heavy by later on in the day temperature wise generally around average a little bit lower particularly under the cloud compared to cloud, the far east compared to friday eight or nine perhaps in the sunshine, ten or 11 through the sunshine, ten or 11 through the evening time on this band of rain will push its way eastwards eastward, heavy possible at eastward, some heavy possible at times the winds picking falling as snow over the higher ground scotland to the early hours

behind the band of rain see some scattered showers moving in fairly blustery night so it stop temperatures getting to low five or six celsius for many us into sunday morning means a wet start once more across eastern areas. snow continues once more across eastern areas. show continues over once more across eastern areas. snow continues over the higher in scotland the rain pushes way eastward. sunshine follows but also a scattering of showers showers, most frequent and heaviest across , the north and heaviest across, the north and the west, perhaps some and thunder in there and a little bit wintry over the high ground, too, into the beginning of next week, temperatures around average the time of year. week, temperatures around average the time of year . we average for the time of year. we expect weather at expect further wet weather at times. see again .

soon it's friday night and for one

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