hello there at 6:00 michelle dewberry and. this is dewbs & co, dewberry and. this is dewbs& co, the show where we get into the things that have got you talking and i'll get this 52% in fifa out of walls. remember that old 52, 48? out of walls. remember that old 52, 48.7 have i heard that before 7 52, 48.7 have i heard that before .7 scottish independence relates to this time, apparently 52% of scots are in favour of independence . but so what

independence. but so what though? because you will be familiar with that ruling that the of the referendum anyway unless westminster says sir do you think it's just time we get all of over and done with have the referendum and move on. oh no and get this. the referendum and move on. oh no and get this . £574 million. no and get this. £574 million. cool. blimey what do you make to that? that is the figure that's on entrepreneurs paid himself in? now this is one of britain's biggest dividend and many people furious they're saying this is one of the issues that we've got in society. inequality, the haves and the have nots. i say, wow, how inspirational , how wow, how inspirational, how motivational that actually here you can set up a business, be self—made and create those kinds of return personally , i'm not of return personally, i'm not offended by it. i'm by it. but what about you also a earls do you think that if a convicted is to children as of we know that they are that they can somehow

be rehabilitated . a bit of be rehabilitated. a bit of therapy. i don't but what says you a new study says that absolutely should be going down the route of offering these people therapy to try and change them. i'm not sure it washes with me, though. i'll be honest. this whole palace race row is dominated. many column inches over the last day or so. but should it do? should it be? this huge news is a sign of an institutional lib racist royal family or not. i want your thoughts on all that. but first, let's bring ourselves up to speed with tonight's latest headunes. speed with tonight's latest headlines . thank you, michelle. headlines. thank you, michelle. i'm tatiana sanchez in the gb newsroom, the founder of a domestic abuse charity has told gb news she felt like she was being interrogate during a reception at buckingham palace. ngozi fulani described comments made by prince william's godmother as unacceptable and

she was shocked by her behaviour dunng she was shocked by her behaviour during a royal reception , lady during a royal reception, lady susan hussey was forced apologise and resign from , apologise and resign from, repeatedly asking this fulani where she really came from . i where she really came from. i mean, if you want to find something about somebody, you ask a question once or twice once you've the answer, you move on, right. and because this whole thing is about domestic abuse , there were other abuse, there were other questions. but when the first thing she did as well is to take hair and move it out the way. that's the first thing. no hello? no, nothing. you just actually , you know, and i've actually, you know, and i've never done i really think that we to respect people's personal space. meanwhile, the for harry and meghan, the duke and duchess of sussex's netflix docu series has been released promoted the streaming service as a global. the series features personal photos that have never been seen before. it's expected to air next week . no one sees what's next week. no one sees what's happening behind doors . last

happening behind doors. last yean happening behind doors. last year, everything i could to protect my family . ambulance protect my family. ambulance wait times the high and now then they were at any point last. new data shows nearly third of patients in england had to wait more than half an hour to be handed over to a&e last week. an average of 13,000 patients were also stuck in hospital beds each day, despite ready to be discharged. figures come as more than 40 so—called winter war rooms have been established to help find beds for patients faster . gb news understands more faster. gb news understands more than 44,000 migrants have crossed the channel far this yeah crossed the channel far this year. that's after 200 people were intercept this morning. the overall figure is significantly higher than last year's total when 29,000 people were intercepted . a surge in the intercepted. a surge in the number of people to cross this week coincides with better

weather conditions . former weather conditions. former minister boris johnson plans to run as an mp in the next general section. that's according to a source close to him. meanwhile and buffet is stepping down his role as snp leader westminster. announcing the decision said he believed it was time for fresh leadership after five years in the role. he's confirmed he'll continue as mp for ross skye and the harbour . continue as mp for ross skye and the harbour. rishi sunak is facing his first electoral test with voters at the polls in the chester by—election today. the vote triggered by the resignation of former mp chris matheson , who quit after matheson, who quit after complaints of serious sexual misconduct were upheld by a parliamentary watchdog. it's the first byelection since boris johnson's resignation and the financial market chaos that followed. liz truss is mini—budget in september. met police commissioner. sam rowley says he's going corrupt officers within force. measures such an

anonymous hotline have been introduced to help identify them and to root out racism misogyny and to root out racism misogyny and other toxic . the and other toxic. the commissioner told assembly members hundreds of met police officers are letting force down as over a couple of decades become more bureaucratic with any sensible setting up of the good offices. to succeed is critical as is taking on who have undermined the trust of the pubuc have undermined the trust of the public through their corrupting behaviour . public through their corrupting behaviour. they have public through their corrupting behaviour . they have corrupted behaviour. they have corrupted our integrity with racism , our integrity with racism, misogyny and other toxic conduct and. we're going after them . and. we're going after them. british gas announced it will pay british gas announced it will pay customers for the amount of energy they during peak times. the energy supplier is the biggest join the scheme which is designed ease the pressure on the grid. the company hopes 100,000 customers will agree to take part . households will be take part. households will be paid around take part. households will be paid aroun d £4 for every unit of

paid around £4 for every unit of electric kitty. they cut their consumption by at specific times . an consumption by at specific times. an happiest place to live . the happiest place to live. the cornish seaside town wrexham and northumberland to take the top spot in rightmove's annual survey. it scored highly on its green spaces and a sense of community spirit. st ives resident and winner of the voice, molly hocking , says the voice, molly hocking, says the town has a special atmosphere. it's just an amazing place. it's got such local atmosphere . every got such local atmosphere. every time you wake up in the morning, all you can hear is the seagulls. no roads, no cars, just fresh air. the sea goes. we've everything. we've got shops local bakers , sports clubs shops local bakers, sports clubs , tv, online , disney plus radio. , tv, online, disney plus radio. this is gb news. now it's back to dewbs& co .

to dewbs& co. thanks for that, tatiana. well, i'm with you through until 7:00 this evening and keeping me company here in the studios, my panel maraj the financier and the columnist at the article , and alongside him, the article, and alongside him, john mcternan, the strategist and a former adviser to tony blair. good evening gentlemen, nice to have you . and you know nice to have you. and you know the drill, don't you want dewbs & co not just about those three. it's about you at home as well. what's on your mind tonight? getting with me? gp views gbnews.uk as always is my email address you tweet at gb address or you can tweet at gb news as a quick reminder, i want to talk to you about independence . whether or not independence. whether or not wealth inequality is out of control . this country 570 odd control. this country 570 odd million pound is the amount that one businessman's just paid himself and dividends. is that appropriate or is it offensive? i think it's great, quite frankly, both . what do you make frankly, both. what do you make to a? do you reckon they can be rehabilitated? a bit of therapy.

i don't . i personally think they i don't. i personally think they need to be castrated , but maybe need to be castrated, but maybe i'm just a little bit harsh on the matter. what do think? and also as well this whole palace race row , where do you stand on race row, where do you stand on it ? what are your thoughts on it? what are your thoughts on all of that? and that's how can get hold of me. the email address still on the screen. address is still on the screen. gb at gb news dot uk. now gb views at gb news dot uk. now let's get straight into scottish independence. we. support for it is risen to 52. it's now. i found this quite fascinating that 5248 is always something that 5248 is always something that none of us will perhaps forget . and don't forget, by the forget. and don't forget, by the way, this is fascinating all these polls and all that. but ultimately as per the courts judgement recently, sturgeon can't even hold another independence referendum without permission . westminster. so to permission. westminster. so to be honest, it's all a bit of a moot point anyway. but i want you to talk about it because we just keep round these circles around these polls that way. so let's if can get to the let's see if we can get to the bottom of it once and for all. i've got scotsmen on my panel

and also a proud englishman call you an email you that. so i've got an email from one of my view is right off the bat called john he's saying michelle so the scots are in 52% in favour of independence but john says i think about 75. i think those people want rid of them. you say they're a drain on those english . oh, harsh. i'll those english. oh, harsh. i'll come to you first then for a response, which come to you in. well, if i was running the country, michel, which i am unfortunate really not, i would have i would make it have a but i would make it a nationwide on the way it would work. is this if the scots voted to leave and rest of the uk wanted them to stay, they would leave. if the scots to leave. if the scots voted to stay and rest of the uk stay and the rest of the uk wanted leave, would wanted to leave, they would still leave. the only way they would stay if scots would stay is if the scots wanted and the rest of wanted to stay and the rest of the country wanted them to stay. now reason why i want the now the reason why i want the whole the to have vote on whole the uk to have a vote on this is we also this is because we also subsidise scots through the subsidise the scots through the barnett like, barnett formula. they're like, you don't, don't you you know, we don't, we don't you take north oil from us, but we do. that's a fact. so i think

should have a stake in this conversation. frankly, i'm conversation. and frankly, i'm getting tired this getting a bit tired of this whingeing moaning the whingeing and moaning from the scottish they had whingeing and moaning from the s

vote for them to probably stay because i think we're better off together. change my together. i might change my mind. indeed a mind. well you are indeed a proud. i john. where do you proud. i am, john. where do you stand think that stand on it? i think that independence for scotland is a stupid idea. even the brexit jeopardise brexit stupider than brexit. oh someone shouting at my screen i can hear you already. i can hear you shouting. it wasn't a stupid idea , but it was stupid. that is idea, but it was stupid. that is stupid. no always stupid for and it's nice for another day. that one. but specifically on scottish independence, you're not a fan of it. you don't think it should happen. do you think there be another on the there should be another on the topic? not now and the supreme court ruled not. now we're in the middle of an a cost of living crisis. there's no issue more important in scotland than deaung more important in scotland than dealing with the cost living. that's got to be first priority and the country you've got to run scotland got to run policing the police. the police , the police. the police, education, health and interest, the public and everything run in scotland to campaign for

independence . does that prove independence. does that prove education is it? it was great when i went to school standards are terrible now and it's the government in scotland on nicholas sturgeon. i've only got one issue. pick a fight, a fight, pick a fight, have a grievance, have a grievance that's stop and there's that's got to stop and there's an i saw month an interesting poll i saw month or ago. an interesting poll i saw month or ago . if you say yes or no or so ago. if you say yes or no , you get quite high votes for independence if you say should scotland remain in the united kingdom or , leave the united kingdom or, leave the united kingdom, you never get a majority for leave . if you ask majority for leave. if you ask the remain leave question , the remain leave question, independence never wins . that is independence never wins. that is because because the yes no question stacks stacks the question, doesn't it. yes is such a positive thing. no feel so negative if you if we have a referendum it should be on remain and leave and it should be done quickly . it was a big be done quickly. it was a big mistake of david cameron to let alex salmond have a two year campaign before the vote , six campaign before the vote, six week campaign, get it over and done with. but we have to get the snp agree if there's another vote and they lose they'll give

up but we know they want that's of the frustrations about this they've only got issue and they've only got one issue and politics is grievance grievance grievance . do you think do you grievance. do you think do you think that's fair grievance favours grievance. but look, one of the upsides of scottish independence would that we independence would be that we wouldn't listen in wouldn't have to listen to in other one job anymore. now, he's resigned as they've i mean, literally time . so i mean, literally every time. so i mean, the man is so dower. i mean, think things are tough but i mean, even before they were tough he thinking the thing tough, he was thinking the thing is, actually free is, is actually a free marketeer. his are closer to marketeer. but his are closer to yours than to mine in terms of running the economy . well, you running the economy. well, you wouldn't have imagined it from what a guy got never what he as a guy he's got never a and frankly i think this a day. and frankly i think this constant moaning from the scottish we need we need to resolve this one or the other. the interesting for the snp is though that they now have an alternative threat in labour. labour's coming up . labour's not labour's coming up. labour's not run anas sarwar. he's run by anas sarwar. he's a sensible , credible guy. he sensible, credible guy. he communicates extremely well. i

think the tories , when they had think the tories, when they had ruth, ruth davidson they were doing better now now that now they're sort of on a downward trajectory, it's they don't have a good leader but i think anas sarwar was one to watch and i think the snp's high watermark may have passed on. your question the currency question about the currency is a profound one they've actually said they want scottish pound, which called the which i suppose i get called the pound but the pound on float at 20, at least below the sterling. so that means mortgages independent scotland will be 20% higher because they'll be mortgages . higher because they'll be mortgages. banks are england . and mortgages. banks are in england. and lower. we the by 20. you see, john, the other thing is the other thing is that sturgeon, one of her planks is that we didn't vote to leave the eu. now you make point. yes, you made point, michelle, that it's going to be it's going to be up to 27 eu states to decide whether they're going to come in. now, do you can you really see spain which is growing its own problems catalonia agreeing problems in catalonia agreeing to also. we are this

to this also. oh no we are this is the thing and nobody really is the thing and nobody really is considering because you do allow and this is the thing is not up to nicolas sturgeon to say absolutely no sort her to say absolutely no sort to her to say absolutely no sort to her to say if you guys let's vote independence and then we'll go back and see that's not her gift to sarah. it is not in the interests of the eu to allow a breakaway nation and to now get full. of course the eu because once you facilitate in this scenario. absolutely you yourself up for fairly in lots of the other member states . of the other member states. there's another issue as well which is we've now become armchair expert on borders. right. so we've got the northern ireland issue. we've got this border in, the irish sea, the whole northern ireland protocol fiasco signed up by fiasco that was signed up by david he wants to david frost. and he wants to renege that straight away. renege on that straight away. we're expert, so if we're all armchair expert, so if you going to the eu, you are going to join the eu, which is a big if, by the way, because we just said, because of what we just said, but let's say get in there, but let's say you get in there, you going to to have you are going to have to have a border, goods border, berwick border, a goods border, berwick upon now see all the upon tweed. now you see all the issues with a border. the irish sea and all the division that's

caused the fact that and caused the fact that the dup and all that they've been all that feel that they've been thrown as a second thrown under the bus as a second class of this whole class citizens of this whole thing. really, are we going to really erect border, a land border island, border on this island, a break—up tweed? that the break—up on tweed? that is the question would like to a scottish never to scottish national. i never to face the never one face up to the on the never one to answer the hard the hard questions they always want to say no, let's have a say no, no, no, let's have a fight england. let them fight with england. let them fight with england. let them fight a fight with the fight with me. a fight with the supreme court. well rna, scottish. looking at my scottish. i'm just looking at my email scottish email already. scottish nationalist watching. do you want? want. what do you want? do you want. what do you want? do you want. what do you want? border the allies want? this border the allies referring. thoughts referring. i want your thoughts on that andrew you ask a good you say is it really 52% of people want this how many people were asked what would the make up of the people that were asked how much do you trust these polls? john oh, i trust i trust the are pretty consistent the polls are pretty consistent they have large sample they they have large sample sizes. the pollsters, pollsters, survation i know the this is sound what they do. do they exclude don't knows and the don't know so really where

they'll make their mind up in they'll make their mind up in the campaign and so i think this is a bounce for independents often supreme court and all of the morning from the scottish government about it. i think it'll settle down before christmas or after christmas. we'll in by time we get we'll be back in by time we get to any possibility there being a referendum, which would be in the second term of this time or government that's all way, way off. john , did you hear off. do john john, did you hear what said then , second what i just said then, second time a stomach government. time of a stomach government. very we very confident. you are. we see that john that you that that's john that you mentioned this time the government think we are government look i think we are probably a labour probably heading to a labour government, government government, a government that's not they might not okay. well, they may might be might be right if be look, you might be right if the thing is, i honestly thought, a year ago this time, if got in, he would have a if he got in, he would have a minority administration from top of at moment. if he of the s&p at the moment. if he wins a majority, i don't think the chances of a scottish vote are high. it are going to be that high. it would it was minority would been if it was a minority propped the snp, but it propped up by the snp, but it not happen. that's why he goes snp have no choice exactly. have to a government even to for a labour government even if a minority if they was a minority government keep them. government to keep them. they keep registering. call his

keep registering. i call his successor boris johnson in number i've got a lot number two. yeah, i've got a lot of people writing in as well about his whole kind of it was supposed wants in supposed to be wants in a general. and well they said general. yeah and well they said that it and then that they promised it and then don't you can't a word they don't but you can't a word they say and that is the problem i think when you make these bold statements, is in statements, this is once in a generation. i remember the brexit referendum when brexit referendum as well when they know, we will they said, you know, we will implement you decide they said, you know, we will impipeople you decide they said, you know, we will impipeople coming you decide they said, you know, we will impipeople coming back decide they said, you know, we will impipeople coming back saying, and people coming back saying, no, supposed to be no, no, no, it's supposed to be advisory. you don't what advisory. if you don't do what you you do in my mind you say that? you do in my mind anyway lose undermine the anyway lose you undermine the credibility politics yeah, credibility of politics yeah, you tell me your thoughts you do. so tell me your thoughts on to know. i'm on that. i want to know. i'm looking at inbox. are there looking at my inbox. are there any ish nationalists out any scots ish nationalists out there actually shopping for there are actually shopping for and saying that we're all wrong and saying that we're all wrong and ifs and saying that we're all wrong and it's absolutely right and that it's absolutely right and that it's absolutely right and , scotland and proper, that scotland are independent ? and proper, that scotland are independent? and are you out there if you are going in search for me and tell me vaiews@gbnews.uk uk is my email address you can tweet me at address or you can tweet me at b news. now i've got to take a quick ponder on that. when come back, i want to ask you this. do

think it's ethical for somebody to be able to tear themselves . to be able to tear themselves. ove r £500 million as a dividend over £500 million as a dividend many people say , absolutely many people say, absolutely immoral, shouldn't be happening? and that i mean, i can hear i can hear people just on my panel already agreeing with that sentiment . and apparently it is sentiment. and apparently it is wrong . i don't think it is, wrong. i don't think it is, quite frankly . i wrong. i don't think it is, quite frankly. i think it's quite frankly. i think it's quite inspirational. oh, my wrong. tell me and i'll see you in a couple of minutes.

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with me michelle dewberry right through until o'clock tonight alongside me , o'clock tonight alongside me, maraj, the financier and columnist of the article and john mcternan, the political strategist and a former adviser to tony blair. right. let's talk money, shall rishi sunak's, former boss paid himself more than hundred million pounds as a

dividend. this by the way is one of the biggest payouts. british corporate history . john i think corporate history. john i think it's fabulous. corporate history. john i think it's fabulous . a self—made guy it's fabulous. a self—made guy creates a business employ loads of people, does good and gets financially rewarded for . am financially rewarded for. am i wrong? they pay taxes should pay much more tax . and it is obscene much more tax. and it is obscene to have some one individual being paid that amount of money while paying themselves that amount of money. these were in the middle of a cost of living crisis where there were nurses are going foodbanks. nurses are going to foodbanks. nurses have to foodbanks. what have to go to foodbanks. what i tell you, some of these pay something paying themselves £1.6 million a day. right one of the things i long to nurse have to work to earn 1.6 what he earns in a day. well, but why you think for decades. why are you comparing a never? because we live in a society together. yes, but a nurse who's someone who's chosen to be at my mom and sister, by the way, as examples nhs nurses, my mom and sister

have chosen that career path full well. they're never going to wealthy billionaires to be wealthy billionaires as a result , their chosen career path result, their chosen career path that's , not what they're in it that's, not what they're in it for. in it for the for. they're in it for the vocation and for the giving back and helping other is and the helping other is brilliant. admire what brilliant. i admire them. what application have the nurses rubbed it by somebody paying themselves? rubbed it by somebody paying themselves year? themselves? £1.6 million a year? you are you're paying? look, i'm paying you are you're paying? look, i'm paying it. no, i'm paying lower taxes. are you for these people pay taxes. are you for these people pay earnings taxes. are you for these people pay on their earning s £500 pay on their earnings £500 million. i'm quite happy for million. no, i'm quite happy for people to earn money to make money. think should money. but i think they should pay money. but i think they should pay rates tax on it. that's pay rates of tax on it. that's how much higher would unless i how much higher i would unless i was super tax. what of was super tax. what kind of earning how much of 60 you want. isuppose earning how much of 60 you want. i suppose 60% of his earnings . i suppose 60% of his earnings. yeah. really so what do you think he's going to do. do you reckon he's going to stay and pay a reckon he's going to stay and pay a 60% tax in this country or do you reckon he's going establish himself in a country that doesn't pay 6% of that he doesn't to pay 6% of his, if you go to you can his, that if you go to you can go to monaco if you want. so then you get zero. yeah and then we but when we have to our

we but when we have to show our values it cannot be right values and it cannot be right that earns day that somebody earns in a day what a would take decades what a nurse would take decades to i find this mean you are to i find this i mean you are a financier that's how i introduced find no offence introduced you i find no offence john very smart guy but i find she's comparison between this entrepreneur and nurses ridiculous . what would you sound ridiculous. what would you sound ? well, look, i think john alludes to an point which is the fact that there is growing in this country. and it's something that i've been worried about, michel, as you know, we've discussed it before, a capitalist, but i just the capitalist, but i just the capitalist system working capitalist system is not working for everyone it, hasn't been working properly for very long working properly for a very long time. at real wages in time. you look at real wages in past years, been past ten years, they've been falling. you look at a situation now where 1% of people in now where 1% of the people in this country have got of 13% this country have got 30% of 13% of income, the top 10% of all the income, the top 10% have all the wealth. that have 44% of all the wealth. that is a healthy position is not a healthy position society to now, what do society to be in. now, what do we one we have to give we do? one is we have to give proper educational to people to skill and take people and get skill and take on people and get the best education to can to go and earn if they want to millions and that's thing. millions and that's one thing. but i do think that if you've

got a situation where you got 177 in country, 177 billionaires in the country, that their wealth by that increased their wealth by 10% in the couple of years. 10% in the last couple of years. covid something going wrong covid something is going wrong somewhere other people somewhere when other people are suffering think suffering right. so i do think redistribution is part of the answer now that's already fashionable on the on the centre right right where i traditionally come from. but i think it's an important conversation have because and this where i agree with john this is where i agree with john taxes part of the right i do think tax money if i been think tax money if i have been in charge again i'm not in charge which again i'm not sorry a common theme sorry there's a common theme here increased here i would have increased taxes for i would have increased taxes for i would have increased tax on people earning greater 150000 to 50. right. i given where we are given we've got 400 billion in borrowing on the back of covid looming 2.7 trillion of pubuc of covid looming 2.7 trillion of public debt here and we've 7 million people on waiting list systems are creaking why why we have in general i'm not having this you you know you both i want to band together quite frankly i don't want to the notes maria is emails it's not so sure i normally agree with you on everything but on this

completely wrong. she agrees with both of you, maria says one word here and that is greed you're right. and capital will you're right. and capital will you feel that strongly about it maria? but i just don't buy into this notion of, you maria? but i just don't buy into this notion of , you know, let's this notion of, you know, let's tax the wealth more tax the wealth more you say about alternative tax the poor. well, no . think that the wealthy no. think that the wealthy should huge amounts of tax you talk about all you talk about should i say people earning over £150,000 per annum. you want to take half of their wages on the top end. not you're not exactly saying well if they but people earning close 150 they've already had such big bed and compared to the lower end. so for example they have no personal allowance, they have no childcare, they have , i don't childcare, they have, i don't know, whatever the child benefit, no i don't mean child benefit. i mean if they lose child benefit. so you get no child benefit. so you get no child benefit, get no fat hours free childcare . so you already free childcare. so you already do pay over and above your share. you pay the highest rate.

so your 45 per rate and just don't buy it . okay? okay. so don't buy it. okay? okay. so sorry. sorry. thank you, gemma. no sorry. don't you go. i've got another point to make. no, no. it's just that if. if this billionaire paid 50% tax, he would still be earnin g £800,000 would still be earning £800,000 a year. but just to be a classroom teacher or a nurse today is 3030 years to earn that much . chris jonathan, let's let much. chris jonathan, let's let let's just get real here. it's when i look at cristiano ronaldo. no i don't think he should he's worth 172 million that he's signing a deal with saudia over whatever and each yeah saudia over whatever and each year. point is this also year. the point is this also michel, be equalising michel, we should be equalising the tax base. what does that mean? that means people who earn money dividends money like this in dividends should an effective same tax should pay an effective same tax as someone who's working a normal earning under 50 grand. at the moment, the tax rate on dividends a lot lower than . dividends is a lot lower than. the top rate if that same the 45 pe top rate if that same for gains. so if you're for capital gains. so if you're a private person earning a lot of money and you're very successful love private successful great i love private people lot of good people they do a lot of good work. do. they earn they

work. they do. they earn they earn absolutely earn returns. they absolutely should. risk . but we should. they take risk. but we should. they take risk. but we should be taxing them in a similar or at it to people earning income tax. you want tax, to take money. so tax, you want to take money. so at the moment, as you say, you've got income, capital gains tax. yeah. so people that are making gains more often making capital gains more often than money . so than not, they taxed money. so that money, some money that they've earned, let's say, is income. perhaps they've paid income. perhaps they've paid income tax on this is taxed . and income tax on this is taxed. and then investing that and then they're investing that and then they're investing that and then they're investing that and then they're paying additional tax on that pay to i'm tax on that to pay to i'm talking about the specific industries which actually the way they're modelled is based on capital gains tax rate. so they don't out money on anything. they don't get income tax. they get charged capital gains tax on their earnings, which is a 28% level at the moment, compared to 45. you're a high rate payer, 45. if you're a high rate payer, i think you should equalise the tax base and be fair, right? this guy look, i don't believe, by the way , none of my view is by the way, none of my view is evolving. of me don't evolving. any of me don't believe it. but i don't believe

this is a moral issue in the sense that we should be dictated to go to the show, then i don't believe i don't believe we should be saying to the chris home. you know, this is no, he's a he's an entrepreneur. he's made his money. that's fine. i agree break when the agree with the break when the dutch let us dutch economist you said let us stop about philanthropy. stop talking about philanthropy. let's about taxes let's just talking about taxes properly he's from the properly and then he's from the left. all from the left part left. i'm all from the left part of society, of course. of course. chris evans policies. he'll to pay his share he'll want to pay his fair share , so the nurses can't , i'm sure. so the nurses can't get paid e mails and i've got to i am definitely in the minority luckily for me i can handle that i'm fine but i am definitely the minority not just on the panel but with you guys at home. you're saying michel are you me? it's okay for a teacher pay a 55% tax, but not for a billionaire to pay a 60. no, andrew, i'm not saying that firstly, teachers don't pay 55% income tax. nobody does . and income tax. nobody does. and secondly, you know, when you all start talking about let's take a

60% tax rate on it. no offence, but i think you deluded because if you think a billionaire is going to sit there and say, yeah, i'll tell you what, i'll stay registered in the uk and i'll pay 60% of my earnings as to, i don't know, basing myself that tax for it, you that has a zero tax for it, you deluded . so then you'll do deluded. so then all you'll do is you'll just actually get zero tax as opposed to the tax revenue as opposed to the portion that currently get . portion that you currently get. but they already do that. michel in monaco is full of people like that who already at the current rate 45% pay 45 because rate of 45% don't pay 45 because it's mean, of it's over. i mean, loads of people are doing that already right worth saying right away. it's worth saying that fellow well is one of that this fellow well is one of the biggest philanthropists the uk's biggest philanthropists as celebrate success. as well. celebrate success. i want more of it. and i also, by way would like to see nurses being paid better. and in fact the lower paid in society being better overall, they're not mutually in mind. you can celebrate success equally. how michelle oh, i don't know if raise taxes or borrow more and you can't borrow more in rising interest rate. you've got to tax people more. well there you go.

i can safely say that nobody, quite frankly, seems agree with me right . i'm quite frankly, seems agree with me right. i'm going to take a quick break. and no code. yeah dewbs & co. yeah, jobs and kicked dewbs& co. yeah, jobs and kicked out. so what can say ? right. out. so what can i say? right. i'm take a quick break. i'm going to take a quick break. when back. if you do when we come back. if you do agree with me, help me out. note that i might say cry. only the safe also want to safe space. also want to get over so when we come over it, right? so when we come back. to talk to you about. back. what to talk to you about. do you think they can be rehabilitated with of rehabilitated with a bit of therapy? oh, no i'll see you in a couple minutes .

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with me, michelle dewberry . i'm with you until dewberry. i'm with you until 7:00 tonight. alongside me, we got oliver marsh. he's a columnist at the article and john mcternan, who's the political strategist and a former adviser to tony blair. he's also the man that pointed out just before the break that they shouldn't be called dewbs& co anymore because i'm all of my

own tonight. however, got own tonight. however, i've got news all because in the news for you all because in the break found micah i found my break i found micah i found my if could. yes, karen yvonne if i could. yes, karen yvonne tracey diane denise tracey staveley, diane denise sensible people of britain you you all agree with me so thank you all agree with me so thank you . i get rid of you all agree with me so thank you. i get rid of a you all agree with me so thank you . i get rid of a safe you. i can get rid of a safe space drama is because it seems after all at least five of you i'm speaking said so thank you for that right let's move. let's talk shall we why not. when it comes to someone that is actually of course has been convicted of the same. what should that punish solution be overin should that punish solution be over in sweden they've been doing some tests, some pilot schemes, whatever you to call it. and they're now saying that actually therapy is the answer you can't just lock these people apparently you've got to be putting them on a training is therapy cbt and apparently that is you can help rehabilitate these do you agree ? i do believe these do you agree? i do believe in rehabilitate and i think the purpose of prison is rehabilitation. so you see this is the purpose of the purpose we

in being imprisoned losing your liberty as a punishment . but you liberty as a punishment. but you definitely don't want prisoners to come out and commit the same crimes again. all of them told that of rehabilitation, one of the toughest things to do, and i think this this study of only 160 people, it doesn't even seem to be a study of actual offenders who have been prosecuted , imprisoned. so prosecuted, imprisoned. so i think that's and i'm not a great believer myself in cbt i'm a believer myself in cbt i'm a believer in proper expensive therapy. it looks like this is an attempt to find a cheap way to, not put people in prison . to, not put people in prison. and what we need to do is we do investment in prevention, but in social work and investment in investigation and investment prosecution, because you know, people should people who commit crimes, people who commit child sex abuse should be imprisoned and, you know, they should be caughtin and, you know, they should be caught in prison and the should be attempts if it can work to make these people change their behaviour . make these people change their behaviour. and that's the make these people change their

behaviour . and that's the big behaviour. and that's the big question and i'm not convinced by this by the study ali i'm sorry. but i actually the risk of like breaking in consensus here i'm with john on this again because i've actually done two years of psychotherapy training for fun. i was interested in the communication policy , communication policy, psychotherapy and cbt is in many senses a very blunt instrument , senses a very blunt instrument, quite a cheap one. i mean it can be helpful, but it's quite cookie cutter approach is don't very bespoke and the reason why it's used in the nhs it because it's used in the nhs it because it's about throughput and it's about resources and it's a quick and effective cost saving, it's and effective cost saving, it's a cost saving issue and you fine. it may be better than nothing, but study that's nothing, but this study that's been here is not exactly been done here is not exactly conclusive at all i mean, it's pretty sparse, quite frankly. not it's made much not even sure it's made much difference now on the point about , look, if people commit about, look, if people commit crimes and i must say paedophilia is one of the most despicable, awful things imaginable. there are two issues. is punishment, issues. one is punishment, retribution, the other is rehabilitation . john says now it rehabilitation. john says now it doesn't just to, but the

criminal justice and the way we deal with isn't working very effectively , right? the effectively, right? the re—offending rate is high when it comes to. you want to. if there are psychological issues here to try and deal with those and try and it's so that they don't come out and re—offend. i mean the fundamental thing, right, we try another one scale the prison forever is really to try and stop the skin because i'm in disagreement with you both. again, i'm completely on own tonight and i am borderline , as you said, michel, with no co you can be the co like just me on the corner, man disagree with the pair of you because. i don't believe it's possible a to be rehabilitate say it's said because . yeah lowest of the low because. yeah lowest of the low mean you know we all know what it is don't need to rehash it but to me that is it's a grotesque of sexual preference . grotesque of sexual preference. and when you talk about rehabilitate station that was that's almost you suggesting right michelle you are your

straight person and that's your sexual preference. so what i'm going to do is i'm going to send you to 27 classes of cbt to try and reprogramme your sexuality and reprogramme your sexuality and make somehow now attracted women. i'm sorry, i'm being careful because it's t time . i careful because it's t time. i do not believe that you can require the sexual preference of a person like that. so if indeed someone has that grotesque repulse of sexual preference i want you having cbt quite frankly , i want you to be frankly, i want you to be castrated i'll allow myself to be kind and our okay, i'm not going to make you have physical surgery, but i would absolutely be pushing these people chemical castration . i think that's very castration. i think that's very sensible. and i want to give myself a pat on the back am i wrong we to find whatever works stop giving you the false defending again of castration . defending again of castration. i've got i've got no evidence that that works so well the

abuse of the abuse of children is quite often by within family actually removing people from the family removes them from the opportunity we have to stop the crime initially when we can we have to imprison people and we have to imprison people and we have to imprison people and we have to find a way to rehabilitate. i don't i think there are the conditions for people being released from prison, which keep them away from the circumstance where they abuse. we can't, but we can't we can't have a sexual cost doing it because they've got a child in their immediate proximity. if you without you take that child out without immediate proximity, it immediate proximity, which it should, child sexual should, this is child sexual abuse done the family. abuse done within the family. it's a within the family. it's not a stranger danger. then they'll still within the they'll still come within the family. at these family. we're looking at these images into images online. i don't into this appalling of . there is no appalling notion of. there is no such thing child . there's such thing as child. there's only child abuse. and when you look at this child abuse. yeah when at this you're when you look at this you're not looking yourself looking at not delude yourself you're crime scenes you're looking at crime scenes disgraceful that that disgraceful and it's that that needs to be stopped all of it because. it's all right. yeah. let's take the child the

let's take the child out the home or let's take the person out of the home. you still have this people this industry. these people still look at these still go and look at these imagery, these children are still abused create still being abused to create imagery, fulfil preferences . imagery, to fulfil preferences. these people, it's not just men, by the way it's women as well. i just find it disgusting is disgusting. it is disgusting. and it's absolutely appalling. absolutely appalling. then i think taking steps think we should be taking steps to chemical to introduce chemical castration. they it in castration. they have it in ukraine way lots of people ukraine the way lots of people chomping stuff to do chomping a lot of stuff to do with it's legal with ukraine. it's legal and welcome well perhaps we welcome there. well perhaps we should perhaps so should have perhaps so government should commission a full review of this issue and full on review of this issue and exactly the ways that it can be with. and maybe that is one solution that could be looked at, but it would have to be evidence based. we'd have to have trials done to have a study in trials done to see if it works. i i completely agree with michelle. i mean, to fathom this all is just reprehensible, quote, prevention and prevention of this every level has to silly objective. well, yes. you tell me your thoughts i am i a thoughts on that. am i am i a bit harsh? you tell me what your thoughts that to be pinning

thoughts that i to be pinning people by the way and getting my surgical scissors suggesting surgical scissors out suggesting using chemicals. i think that's sensible, humane , mean everyone sensible, humane, mean everyone is into all that stuff these days. are they i think that is a solution tell your thoughts on that. i'm going to take a quick when we come back. i'll have some of your thoughts on the topics we've been discussing tonight. also to get into tonight. but i also to get into this whole oliver race. this whole roy oliver race. well, i mean, i would have well, i mean, i would say have you you've seen it is you it because you've seen it is absolutely it's absolutely everywhere it's been dominating headlines dominating the news headlines kids after all that's kids should after all that's going on i'll see in a couple of minutes and we'll get right that .

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with me, michelle dewberry right through till 7:00 this evening. alongside me, we have ali meraj, the columnist at the article , and john mcternan,

the article, and john mcternan, the article, and john mcternan, the political strategist and the former adviser to tony blair. bnan former adviser to tony blair. brian likes you to he's emailed and doesn't agree with everything that you said, but he really relates the panel tonight. sir mike nice move coming in from brian. tonight. sir mike nice move coming in from brian . lots of coming in from brian. lots of people getting touch the way people getting in touch the way still on this whole ceo thing. should be able to earn 500 should you be able to earn 500 million quid? susan says ? no, million quid? susan says? no, definitely not. this man should not be paying himself that amount of money. mark says i'm all higher earners, giving them one for anyone earning . one myself for anyone earning. £500 disgusting and £500 million is disgusting and obscene. mark, you say . you're obscene. mark, you say. you're high end. so what's your line then ? i'm fascinated by all of then? i'm fascinated by all of this because everyone seems to want everyone else to pay more tax and all the rest of it, but not that much. where's your not that much. so where's your line, you're a hyaena. line, you say you're a hyaena. at point would you at what point then would you start rinsing people for even more get in touch and tell more tax? get in touch and tell me whole thing. lots of me on this whole thing. lots of are even harsher than me. i won't tea time. you won't read tea time. what you would do in response. i'll save that for another you can use your imagination but lots of people agreeing me on the

chemical castration . someone chemical castration. someone else? barbara your name is you're saying about that whole know take people out of the family what you're saying barbara and i think is spot on you that doesn't stop the you said that doesn't stop the situation it just changes the victim completely agree with you right let's move to on another topic that's got a lot of people everyone i'm sure you know what it i'm referring to at it is that i'm referring to at the so called palace race row. it's been everyone dominate the headlines. obviously talking about the fact that a black british charity boss was apparently repeatedly asked where she was really from by prince william's . this was all prince william's. this was all at an event at buckingham palace this week . anyway, the ladies this week. anyway, the ladies gone on to resign and everyone now the prime minister has been talking about it. let's have lesson institutional . racism has lesson institutional. racism has been found within the london fire brigade in. some police force is now the victim of the royal race, royal says buckingham palace is also racist

. is she right? well, it wouldn't be right for me to comment on that has to do with the royal palace, although as we've all seen, they've acknowledged what's happened and made an apology for it. acknowledged what's happened and made an apology for it . well, made an apology for it. well, there you go. like i said, everyone is talking about it, my inbox been on fire off as well . inbox been on fire off as well. right. i'm going to come to you first. that's racist . sorry. oh, first. that's racist. sorry. oh, that's very typical. typical. come to me first. yeah, please come to me first. i've got a very strong view on this on any marriage. what i thought was a hilarious comeback. then you better not date. careful. yes. not at best. shut up and ask you what thing alec on that little michel. i get asked all the time . where i'm from originally from inever . where i'm from originally from i never ever have taken offence to that question. right. i'm british. if people ask me where you originally from, i say pakistan very proudly and then often. what will is? i say, oh, whereabouts? and i'll say, my father's from lahore, my mother's from karachi. then mother's from karachi. and then it a putting of maybe a it might be a putting of maybe a person certain age might person of a certain age might say, oh, i've been to laurel, my

grandfather, served in the army and, know, rajasthan or and, you know, in rajasthan or what. what but you could what. i don't what but you could have a really deep rich conversation. it shows inquisitiveness. that you're inquisitiveness. it that you're trying engage in more deep trying to engage in a more deep visceral someone. visceral level with someone. i this whole thing absolutely utterly bizarre. i mean i've read the whole yes. i think lady hussey sort of went on bit yes some of the terms she used when she when she the person back and said i'm a british national, she should probably have left it there but i'm not making any progress. but the intent of her from reading transcript me from reading the transcript me was was trying to find was clear she was trying to find out where she was from. and then the person that she was the person said that she was proud her background. this is proud of her background. this is what saying to her what she's saying to her parents. to be part a parents. told it to be part of a background. then asked background. then when asked about from, she's about where she's from, she's saying know, no records saying i don't know, no records were really no were kept. i mean really no records . you would know where records. you would know where your parents come from. and why is such an issue i also on is this such an issue i also on this morning someone of black origin this morning said look i'm in i'm i'm ethnically asian i'm in i'm i'm ethnically asian i see this as an issue. do you

and oh but it's different for you because eurasian you were treated differently in colonial times really. i mean i only see i genuinely michel genuine i really honestly would love people to sort tell me i want to understand where this issue is emanating from. yesterday i was a banking and i spoke to someone about very senior lady in banking industry and we were chatting and i said, where, where are you from ? and she where are you from? and she said, i'm from essex, hertfordshire borders never went to university. i was always down in city, i made it and in the city, but i made it and i really of my background and i asked, i said, how we how do asked, i said, how do we how do we that perception in the we change that perception in the city? everyone to city? because now everyone to get if i hadn't asked get a degree if i hadn't asked that question, would have that question, we would have never rich. would never had that rich. it would have been lost. and this person today i was at an event on today said, i was at an event on domestic conversation should domestic the conversation should have domestic have been around domestic abuse. why if i go to an arts event, i don't just talk to the person about art i might ask them about loads of things whilst on the ball. home for them in

ball. where's home for them in london. i the whole thing london. i find the whole thing really . and think that the really. and i think that the royal in my view and i've got a lot of time for william and charles i think they've done a knee jerk reaction have kicked out lady here after years out a lady here after 60 years of service and i think the reason they've done it is because of the whole harry and meghan issue i think they're worried i've got to worried and scared. i've got to say, to say, obviously she chose to resign. apparently lady resign. apparently this, lady john, to? well john, whenever you want to? well she was racist. she it she's apologised and she's and the palace except say she was worse asking for 5 minutes where somebody comes from a black british person ask them five, 5 minutes where they come from. that's racist well hang up people of colour get people of colour get that all the time and that's where it comes from. it comes from but okay. so when you say she was asking for apartments, just need that apartments, i just do need that in. not familiar with in. everyone's not familiar with the whole thing because bizarrely there's transcript of the i mean the whole thing. that's b i mean don't know about you but i couldn't transcribe couldn't sit here and transcribe word absolutely word for word absolutely perfectly a conversation that

you and i just had one that you and i have just had one that i had this morning i couldn't do. passing my memory is not that sharp, but notwithstanding that, all been that, apparently it has all been transcribed. say all transcribed. you say it was all about minutes. the about for minutes. the conversation big conversation starts with a big misunderstanding because the person's asking , are you from person's asking, are you from the person that the charity boss tookit the person that the charity boss took it to mean which organisation which you would? i mean, you were at works event and someone says, where are you from? i would say, oh, i watch my gb news. well, all right. well, the first part of the well, so the first part of the conversation was a genuine about are referring to employer or are you referring to employer or was that's the first part of the conversation does conversation and then it does kind of go from there so kind of go on from there so i'm just fascinated how how you think absolute categorically racist ask this person where she's from where are you from? where are you from ? asked to where are you from? asked to a black british woman. repeatedly, repeatedly. repeatedly the question the implication is you're not from here. if it wasn't familiar to is that and that racist. but john, why did she say that intention is race and so the lady lady at lady

horses and apologised and i didn't get this so i don't get this it's my response apologise it how how can you categorically say it's racist in intent john you might be able to say it was it was received as being racist. how can you say the intention of another person because you don't know if it's a racist remark and if you say isn't is no use it is used intentionally a repeat asking a black british person where they are from is othering them and it's racist. i don't i honestly , i don't understand honestly, i don't understand that i honestly don't . but i that i honestly don't. but i know that's why. lady roslyn, i don't understand this. i really don't understand this. i really don't understand this. i really don't understand it. and this is when i spoke to this lady of black. i don't know who she was. it was on a programme this morning and she said that you were treated different than, the colonialism. and i thought there's deeper here there's a much deeper issue here potentially. which i'm potentially. right, which i'm blind love to be blind to and i'd love to be educate hated because for educate hated about because for me, see that at all. i me, i didn't see that at all. i mean, when went to when

mean, when mother went to when i was going to school, she had to be interviewed for. my school admission to be the parents and the headmaster of the school asked where are asked my what is the where are you has originally said you from? has originally said what think word for mosquito what you think word for mosquito net and she said much adani of course i remember that because i served in yes thanks for reminding me. and they formed an immediate rapport . i just immediate bonded rapport. ijust find it really strange this whole thing look if she had replied and said look my parents are from where they are, wherever, lady wherever, from, maybe lady hussey said, oh, i've hussey would have said, oh, i've been oh okay, how been there. oh okay, how interesting, know. i don't interesting, you know. i don't know. but these conversations know. but i these conversations all i can genuinely all the time i can genuinely hand heart say and by the way hand on heart say and by the way itake hand on heart say and by the way i take ubers all the time. there could a white driver. i had could be a white driver. i had so many copies. item one the other day with a white guy. i said, where are you from? he said, where are you from? he said, italy. said, oh, how said, oh, italy. i said, oh, how do feel? georgia maloney and do you feel? georgia maloney and we whole half an hour we had a whole half an hour conversation about italian politics wasn't racist. politics that wasn't racist. like, me if it was. maybe like, tell me if it was. maybe it was. i know there was a long interview by anglesea this morning the bbc and

morning on on on the bbc and it's really she gave a really clear account of what went and then there was later interview two different people of colour who said that it's a thing that every person of colour has experienced in the uk and look it is racist to other people, it's racist to ask where you from where you re where your family from and i just live in a multiracial society and people people have to accept that the people have to accept that the people at the place people come from is britain. i nevers i'm really sorry. i just want to challenge you on a few of these things, this went to an event. she looked beautiful. she look wonderful. she was dressed in traditional full dress. i don't know if it was african or what. i don't know. i'll probably get the wrong. but she was the term wrong. but she was dressed that was dressed in a way that was representative . you touch her representative. you touch her brains removed . i guess she brains removed. i guess she looked wonderful. that in itself wasn't condescending. fact , wasn't condescending. in fact, would invite a black and heritage is obviously important , particularly to this

individual . and the reason individual. and the reason i reference that is this individual herself runs a charity exclusive for, i quote , charity exclusive for, i quote, african and caribbean women. so how does she determine who is an african and caribbean heritage ? african and caribbean heritage? woman if you don't ask , she's woman if you don't ask, she's running a service for. black women no, no , no, no, no, no, women no, no, no, no, no, no, she's not running a service. and i did let me quote from her website. i'm not making it up as a direct quote on her website. we support african caribbean heritage women . how do you heritage women. how do you ascertain who african and heritage woman the women who turn up for the service. so if i turn up for the service. so if i turn up for the service. so if i turn up you of african heritage are you also you you've just told me you can't ask someone about their heritage. you've said you've told me you're your self—identifying . yeah, i didn't self—identifying. yeah, i didn't tell you, didn't i just said to you if you tell you, you're tony. i'm just you're turning up

to service saying to black women and you think are you you're either you're are you are the left, you are the european. you're either laugh you know the laughing it the women who get that if can that you know if she can surprise say honest the surprise you say honest the white woman who you me is very documented that i myself have had extensive history domestic had a extensive history domestic abuse i've been in domestic refuges. it's deep he affected my life so i can tell you now i would never laugh at woman that's experienced domestic abuseit that's experienced domestic abuse it of their background or their culture . i'm not laughing their culture. i'm not laughing at anything . what i'm turning up at anything. what i'm turning up is a white woman , the black is a white woman, the black woman service. what you're a black woman service? her direct quote is support african and canbbean quote is support african and caribbean heritage women. what i'm saying , caribbean heritage women. what i'm saying, how do you ascertain that ? how does she ascertain the that? how does she ascertain the heritage of that person in order to exclusively provide services to exclusively provide services to them if she does not ask them? pretty sure the women who turn up to that service identify themselves. know i. i honestly it's not i feel really sad i genuine only feel sad about

what's happening to my country really that we've got to a stage where we assume the in people like i don't know lady you've never met the lady right all i know is she served the royal family for 60 years and she's left into this cloud. now, the point is this, right? i'm telling you genuinely i'm an asian man i a really deep asian man. i have a really deep conversations about this. one time a colleague of mine years ago , we innocently said , oh, ago, we innocently said, oh, ali, will you be going back home for christmas meant pakistan. and he immediately himself and said, sorry , whatever, you said, i'm sorry, whatever, you know , i just feel really sad know, i just feel really sad that we've got to this level michel really find really michel really find it really sad. i also find it really sad. and i also find it really sad. and i also find it really sad there's immediate sad that. there's this immediate pile on, you know, this is i've been violent i've been abused. maybe someone just didn't use the word heritage in the right way or i am indeed completely wrong. you tell me your thoughts . in the meantime, though, have yourself a fantastic evening. thatis yourself a fantastic evening. that is all i've got time for ali. john, appreciate the debate . i appreciate your comments at home. have a wonderful evening .

home. have a wonderful evening. take care of yourself and i will see you tomorrow .

thursday night . and this is thursday night. and this is faraj at le laude from clandeboye . but please welcome clandeboye. but please welcome your host, nigel ferrer. it was we're here in london now and the well, as times we've got the local mp , local members of the local mp, local members of the welsh , it's a big thing 48 leave welsh, it's a big thing 48 leave remain area here for tax and projects to seem like a lively

crowd . it's going to be