two men elected to parliament in 2010, both of them in their fifties. guy opperman is a government minister. fifties. guy opperman is a government minister . toby government minister. toby perkins is , a labour frontbench perkins is, a labour frontbench spokesperson . they united by spokesperson. they united by else. both men open up about trauma and grief of baby loss. coming up labour shadow minister toby perkins walking into the church with months before being

married and with two tiny coffins in my arms. married and with two tiny coffins in my arms . employment coffins in my arms. employment minister guy opperman. i a week off when and the house was sitting at that time when the boys got sick and then died and then i went back to work . also then i went back to work. also in today's show we speak to cable former lib dem leader who was the most difficult conservative to have to work with. michael gove has matured. i think becoming quite an interesting politician, more open minded. but at the time was a real clever dick . earls open minded. but at the time was a real clever dick. earls failed to score the last point in any conversation all that after your news . i'm radisson conversation all that after your news. i'm radisson in conversation all that after your news . i'm radisson in the conversation all that after your news. i'm radisson in the gb newsroom. the health secretary is being to stop grandstanding and make a deal with unions

ahead of nhs strikes this month. the call by former health secretary dorrell comes as military personnel prepare to cover striking public sector workers. around 2000 troops, civil servants , other government civil servants, other government volunteers are being trained to help limit disruption during the festive period. mr. durrell says demand for a 19% pay rise may not be with the current offer. it's good enough. most people remembering this the applause that we all gave to the nhs dunng. that we all gave to the nhs during . the pandemic would think during. the pandemic would think that 3% isn't doesn't respond in particular for low paid nhs workers doesn't properly respond to the challenges of the moment and would hope that steve barclay would come out of the grandstands and engage with the people who he relies . he can't people who he relies. he can't deliver health care starting the secretary of state's office . secretary of state's office. well, meanwhile , the rail well, meanwhile, the rail delivery group says , it hopes to delivery group says, it hopes to prevent further train strikes by

offering members of the rmt union an 8% pay rise. the would be spread over two years and includes a guarantee of no compulsion . redundancies until compulsion. redundancies until april 20, 24. momentum is building with england getting ready for their knock out match against senegal at, the world cup in qatar, a game kicking off just under hour's time. the africa of nations holders were runners up in group a while over in group b, the three lions beat wales at iran , but could only wales at iran, but could only draw with the usa . england will draw with the usa. england will also be playing raheem sterling, who is dealing with a family matter . despite that, who is dealing with a family matter. despite that, england fansin matter. despite that, england fans in are optimistic. i think it's going to be exciting . i it's going to be exciting. i think they're going to press. i should be quite good. i reckon we're going to be all right. going is going to be to one of our most not the champions of africa. but i watched them in the afternoon in the great crowds i've been there i've been. we'll be fine. am i going

to. but hoping for nil for now.7 i'm to. but hoping for nil for now? i'm not sure . yeah. joe i'm not sure. yeah. well, joe score lighting him off. score today lighting him off. he's going to a goal he's going to get a goal tonight. well, back here, the head, the police watchdog has been to resign over an been forced to resign over an historical . it's now emerged historical. it's now emerged michael lockwood, who's been director general of the independent office for police since 2018, is facing a criminal investigation. the home secretary suella braverman says she , told him to quit or face she, told him to quit or face immediate suspension after learning about that probe. when he announced his on friday, he said it was for personal reasons . preparations are well underway for . king . preparations are well underway for. king charles's . preparations are well underway for . king charles's coronation, for. king charles's coronation, which takes place? in just 150 days. the same edward's crown has now removed from the tower of london to be resized. it's relocation was kept secret . it relocation was kept secret. it was safely delivered. ceremony on may the sixth is expected to be much smaller than the queen's coronation . around 2000 guests coronation. around 2000 guests are expected instead , 8000 on tv

are expected instead, 8000 on tv , online and on derby, plus radio is gb news. we'll have more at the top of the next hour. lo evening's weather on the uk is looking and cloudy for many with showers feeding in from the east. let's take a look at the details . in the southwest, it'll details. in the southwest, it'll be mostly drive, but it could be a few showers . there should also a few showers. there should also be a few breaks in the cloud . in be a few breaks in the cloud. in the south—east, it'll be largely cloudy . the cloud will stop cloudy. the cloud will stop temperatures dropping to low, but it will be cold with some rain. tim much of wales will have a dry with the best chance of any skies in the south—west with showers. further north—east . it with showers. further north—east. it day. across the midlands, some showers likely, but they will be intermittent and mostly light . intermittent and mostly light. it'll be a different story in

the northeast. the showers will be frequent , hot and heavy at be frequent, hot and heavy at times. the showers could fall as sleet or snow over higher ground . western parts of scotland will stay mostly dry with clear skies, meaning it will cold, said the east. we can expect more cloud and wintry showers this evening and overnight. meanwhile across northern ireland. we can expect some showers mainly towards northern western parts with some clear spells in between, but perhaps not as chilly as last night. showers will continue to in from the northeast overnight with and clearer weather in the west and that's how the weather shaping up overnight into tomorrow morning . morning. toby perkins labour mp for chesterfield since 2010 now a

shadow education minister let's start by talking about your education. you're one of the few ps who go to university . i mean, ps who go to university. i mean, i think i think what's more important is the contribution people make rather than what they that background is. but i think the interesting give you a different perspective is on a watch scheme, the age of 17. what were you training to be in in? salesperson basically, i was in? salesperson basically, i was in telephone sales in the lt. industry and stayed in that sort of seven years. i can come on the back of sort of both of my parents been academics but also my . after my parents split my. after my parents split having sort of pretty tough time being of work and so on. and i think it was just maybe my response to what i'd and also just who i at that point, you know, i wanted to get away from studying in school and wanted to get into to an adult environment

really. your marriage broke down in 2018. you fell in love and started a relationship with someone who was employed as a member of your staff. it got in the papers got a fair amount of negative press attention . for negative press attention. for you it must must've been very hard for everybody involved. i mean, it was i think when it came into the press it actually already happened a few months before . but humana already happened a few months before. but humana in already happened a few months before . but humana in really before. but humana in really difficult situation yourself many very difficult situations just after christmas the first christmas i spent with my kids so you know you all your focus is on the people who are suffering around it's not a you know, it wasn't about me personally, but i was very conscious of, you know , my kids conscious of, you know, my kids had already been through a tough situation . kids have been situation. kids have been through tough situations . through tough situations. current partner. yeah. and you know, the last thing i wanted was to sort of bring who was,

you know, ready in pain into the sort of public in that way. and there's also , you know, whilst there's also, you know, whilst there's also, you know, whilst the sort of the main headline might be true, the numerous inaccuracies in what's been reported. and so do feel very powerless really to sort of respond to much of that . and you respond to much of that. and you know, it was still very new into a relationship. it was it was going great. but you know, also failing pain of that it was causing other so it is difficult andifs causing other so it is difficult and it's obviously the downside of being in the public eye that way. you know . yeah. i mean i'm way. you know. yeah. i mean i'm i'm great obviously you know, still conscious of . all the still conscious of. all the people who have suffered. i think it is difficult when, you know, on the one hand certain i did the right thing in terms of , you know, my own happiness . , you know, my own happiness. and, you know, i think that's

important for those people around you. but but you also are conscious. i mean , have been a conscious. i mean, have been a child who went through their parents splitting up, you know, bringing to the door of mind and is families, you know , it was is families, you know, it was really difficult . and you talk really difficult. and you talk about you were married and you were married for a long time and you have a son and a daughter. but early in your your your your marriage marriage , you and your marriage marriage, you and your wife lost twins . tell us about wife lost twins. tell us about that. wife lost twins. tell us about that . do you ever get over that. do you ever get over something like. well, i mean , so something like. well, i mean, so we were married . in 1996 within we were married. in 1996 within a few months , being married , my a few months, being married, my wife was pregnant. we were told that she was expecting twins know tremendously exciting . the know tremendously exciting. the you know you go and have the scan when discover not only you only got one we've got two and then in january she was even

poor health for a lot of the for a lot of that month and yeah we ended up going back a scan sort of to check everything was okay for poor health had had an impact and then we get told that we can only find one heartbeat and you know, you realise that this means that you know, babies died and i at that moment you still think well or still one but actually, you know, the reality very quickly, my ex—wife body kind of gave to the dead my son joshua and a few moments know gave birth to my daughter jennhen know gave birth to my daughter jennifer, who who was alive but was only 23 weeks into the pregnancy. i think now might be more of a chance of survival. but we had about 6 hours with

her and then she died also . and her and then she died also. and i think , you know, the two i think, you know, the two things that really will always stay with me from that is the first is that moment when first hear on the second is, you know, walking into the church that five months before i've been married with two tiny coffins in my arms . and you know the well my arms. and you know the well i remember that came from my mother seeing her son with her two grandchildren. and, you know in his arms . two grandchildren. and, you know in his arms. it's two grandchildren. and, you know in his arms . it's obviously in his arms. it's obviously something that no one you would never want anyone to suffer . and never want anyone to suffer. and you know, there's a part of you that has that goes through that and, you know, a little bit of you sort of dies in that moment moment . and, you know, moment. and, you know, immediately my ex—wife was very ill. so we had, you know, sort of period of time where the

focus was on on her health . and focus was on on her health. and obviously , you know, coming to, obviously, you know, coming to, you know, tended to come terms with what had happened . but i with what had happened. but i think we were also both of the view that we to conceive again and within 12 months of my twins dying, our twins dying, we my son was born . in fact, he's due son was born. in fact, he's due date was a year on from from the birth of my twins. that wasn't actually when he was born. so, you know, we were obviously that the twins had died were blessed that my son was born , you know, that my son was born, you know, a terrible happened a great thing happened . the great thing thing happened. the great thing wouldn't have happened if the terrible thing happened. and so you take solace from that. and you take solace from that. and you know, it's i think, you know, in terms of the resilience that you need to show and in terms of the way that we've

responded , you know, that, you responded, you know, that, you know , to an extent is nothing to know, to an extent is nothing to be scared of. again never cannot, maybe grief that can . so cannot, maybe grief that can. so it is it's incredibly tough for, you know, human who are remarkably resilient . and you remarkably resilient. and you come through for anybody who's watching who might have had an experience like , the one that experience like, the one that you and your ex wife went through , is there any advice you through, is there any advice you can give ? i think if everyone can give? i think if everyone finds their own way , you know, finds their own way, you know, some people will need to do sort of spend , you know, a lot of of spend, you know, a lot of time and sort of repeated early in years going forward, acknowledging others will will handle it in different way. and i don't think anyone can tell else how they should handle it. if one sort of finds them our own way. but i think it's the

same thing. i'd say any grief, you know, losing a parent or any other is the, you know , the other is the, you know, the acuteness of the grief will pass . but that's much as i can say, really, you know, and i think i think for us, you know, we were in a better position than some others in so much as and fundamentally there was no reason why my ex wife couldn't have more children sometimes you know people going through this who who've had miscarriage after miscarriage and know it's all the more possibly brutal for them but yeah we say son was born and then a few years later we adopted my daughter. and you know, it was so life goes on. thank you for speaking so , so thank you for speaking so, so openly. i think it will help people is hard to listen to. never mind go through . another never mind go through. another thing i noticed about you i noficed thing i noticed about you i noticed a few months ago you've got a hearing aid . have you

got a hearing aid. have you always had a hearing in. we i just we were in the same intake when got elected at the same time i never noticed. is that just me being typical self—absorbed member parliament didn't notice anything was didn't notice anything else was about event i think i mean about the event i think i mean so i've had here in virtually throughout my time in parliament i mean i first noticed i was going deaf my early twenties, although i've got a hearing, i should say, and i really there was a moment where it was really sort of getting worse. and i remember in my mid—twenties at some point just kind of praying that i might be able to into my mid thirties i can get to 35 or i can still hear it, can still work. you know, i was envisaging, you know, being invalided out and not being able to work . and i thought if i can to work. and i thought if i can just have a few years, i can put food on the table, you know, but you know, it wasn't that bad. it sort of stopped escalating and it's fluctuated a bit over the

years. but is difficult in parliament you that parliament's very kind of whispery the workplace and it's very noisy workplace and it's very noisy workplace and it's very noisy workplace and there's a lot of kind of walking and talking a lot of kind of under the breath converse actions and i find that difficult and i think one of the things, you know, that maybe was part of amanda and i coming together when she was working closely with me to the extent to which she became is. and one of the things that really poses issue is a lot of mps will go to schools and the kind of this is what an mp is and i love doing those actually fantastic but often little seven year olds at the back of the room for of to hear and so you know you get someone asking a question and you know one of the worst things about being deaf is have some trappings. i mean, once that fine, it's second three times you're asking to repeat it it

embarrassing for you. it's embarrassing for you. it's embarrassing them. and so eventually you just kind of pretend you've heard and she, you know , was great in that you know, was great in that regard he's great in that regard . and it was one of the things that kind of maybe brought about that kind of maybe brought about that connection . but it is, you that connection. but it is, you know, it's a disability . it's know, it's a disability. it's a it's a difficult one because sometimes we've been ignorant because i think you've ignored them all. people are stupid because you're answering a different question to one of us. do you ? so you know of, you do you? so you know of, you know, huge sympathy for everyone who is deaf and it's you know, it isn't so much more of a stigma about it. people are really fine about wearing glasses yeah but we're in in age we still are much more sort of shy that and so you know i'm coming in a way glad that you didn't notice in another way you sort of think people might you know , be better if they didn't know, be better if they didn't notice, you know, we've covered

a lot of ground. the you've been very open . i've really enjoyed very open. i've really enjoyed listening to you . thank you, listening to you. thank you, toby. i really do feel. like we've learned the real toby perkins today. thank you, you know. thanks very much. cheers gloria. coming up? know. thanks very much. cheers gloria. coming up ? it's vince gloria. coming up? it's vince cable's and times i suppose in practical terms, i didn't how serious it was, how it was going to last. but i think my instincts to sort of cover this up and that was a mistake in deployment minister guy opperman, a very long week where we tried to keep the boys alive and one came and went rather quickly and we spent four or five days trying to keep the second child alive . and sadly second child alive. and sadly that didn't happen .

coming it's vince cable life and

times for i should have been in parliament arguing this case sitting outside i'm not absolutely they should be that . absolutely they should be that. vince cable a of parliament for 20 years leader of the liberal between 2017 and 2019. he stood down at that last general election the good people did . do election the good people did. do you miss anything about being in parliament? no, not really. i mean, i think my starting point was i wasn't 18, so i felt i was was i wasn't18, so i felt i was enough to start a new career, which what i've been doing, you know, writing books, i'm involved in business promoting , involved in business promoting, hydrogen infrastructure . and i, hydrogen infrastructure. and i, you know, they're giving me a professorship at the school of economics. so i've got a very full portfolio existence . and if full portfolio existence. and if i had stayed behind parliament, it would have been a rather sudden environment. i party it hadnt sudden environment. i party it hadn't done very well . there was hadn't done very well. there was all the disruption around covid, so i'm glad to be out doing

totally different. i deliver my leaflets for the liberal party so i keep that out, but i've got nothing, nothing active in the serious . yeah. you recently serious. yeah. you recently revealed vince that when you were leader of the liberal democrats you had a stroke why didn't you say anything at the time . well it wasn't a big time. well it wasn't a big stroke not to call many strokes but it does have the effect of affecting your speech, your memory and your effectiveness. i suppose in practical terms, i didn't how serious it was, how long it was going to last, but i think my instinct was sort of cover this up because . my late cover this up because. my late wife died of cancer which of course, is a totally different order of magnitude of seriousness . but she always took seriousness. but she always took the view that she didn't want people to know about it because . they then treat you as a gonna, you know they're very nice but they treat you as a has been i think i had this been and i think i had this instinct that told me that once politicians talk about own illnesses them off.

illnesses people them off. i mean that was a mistake i mean you saw what happened in the midterm election in america . guy midterm election in america. guy fetterman won, you know, very state despite a mini stroke in the middle of it and a on the back of it. so i think i made a mistake. but that was what i did. it do you think politics are something or anything about politics is particularly unforgiving? yeah it's quite brutal. and as , you know, you've brutal. and as, you know, you've been there . it's a bit like been there. it's a bit like being out on the african savannah. you know, once an animal is wounded, you know, the predators for you . so it's kind predators for you. so it's kind of tough in a dog eat dog environment that you're here, have to adapt to just don't find complaining about it because know you know that's the world you're growing into . but it is a you're growing into. but it is a different environment from everyday life . and you were everyday life. and you were a secretary of state under that coalition government between david cameron and nick clegg talking about dog eat dog, who

was the toughest to work with ? was the toughest to work with? well, some of them were difficult. some of them actually i wouldn't say they were friends exactly, but come remember very well with, you know, david willetts, who is my deputy university, been a great guy. and we worked very well together . i managed to govern well . . i managed to govern well. osborne i mean, it was actually in private, a rather more companionable he in public , i companionable he in public, i think of all the tories the most of aggressive in a way was pickles . i never quite got to pickles. i never quite got to the bottom of what the problem was . michael gove the bottom of what the problem was. michael gove has matured. i think become quite an interesting politician open minded but the time it was a real dig i felt to school last point in any conversation and always had to try and get his way so yeah, they varied but you learnt the attitude i had to the tories i worked with articulate those in my department. i was , those in my department. i was, you know, leave weapons at the

door because i've got a job do and i thought it was their respect to them. i'm fascinated by examples about gove being a clever dick . well you always clever dick. well you always have to have the last in any cabinet discussion with anybody. it was quite witty with it you know, you realise the lesson with the benefit of hindsight , with the benefit of hindsight, of being part of that coalition should the liberal democrats ever go into governments , the ever go into governments, the conservatives again, can you ever see a scenario where that happens? so i can't us going into the coalition with the conservatives for the foreseeable future actually i mean it was i think summarised i think the coalition was good for the country but bad for devastate for the party and you know we can argue about all kind of that were made along the way and i think the fundamental problem was that the party was sort of centre left i mean not true instincts were to work with people and i've certainly mine

i'm perfectly comfortable working with gordon brown. if he'd got back again . working with gordon brown. if he'd got back again. but working with gordon brown. if he'd got back again . but the he'd got back again. but the numbers . in he'd got back again. but the numbers. in the 2010 he'd got back again. but the numbers . in the 2010 election numbers. in the 2010 election made it that that was the only to have a stable government and we were in the of a financial crisis . there was a of crisis. there was a lot of pressure on us to, you know, get together the government provide stable rule which is what we did . but it was terrible for. stable rule which is what we did . but it was terrible for . the . but it was terrible for. the party we still haven't fully recovered and it's going to take a lot of rebuilding do that . a lot of rebuilding do that. it's interesting, isn't it, because the parties , they should because the parties, they should because the parties, they should be doing much better in the polls. it's a fair distance since that that coalition government and my instinct is don't love the conservatives they're still not too sure about keir starmer's labour. it would be ripe for a lib dem revival. well it's a bit bit of a carrot saying, you know , good and bad. saying, you know, good and bad.

there in local government we've had a big revival. certainly when i was party leader we had a massive breakthrough. we done pretty well ever since we did well in the european as a sort of underlying support of 20% or so at that time . but i think so at that time. but i think there's a difference between . there's a difference between. the national polls where we are doing badly and on the kind of local politics and it relates to the way first past the post system operates , we tend to system operates, we tend to concentrate on areas we are second and can do well and tend to neglect the other areas . you to neglect the other areas. you know, we can't and it's going to resolve itself into a conservative versus labour contest. so i think the lib dems will make headway. we will win seats at the next election in 20 possibly, which be a big recovery even on the basis of a relatively slow overall rating . relatively slow overall rating. coming up , relatively slow overall rating. coming up, employment minister guy opperman i doing the budget in 2011 and i would say the

budget nearly killed me and i collapsed in central lobby and i had a brain tumour the size of about your fist . more from vince about your fist. more from vince cable after the break. you know labour may be overestimating their support at the moment. so we couldn't get into a hung parliament situation .

it may be that the labour party may not may be the biggest party and they may need lib dem support , they may seek lib dem support, they may seek lib dem support, they may seek lib dem support . what should be the support. what should be the price of not support ? well, i price of not support? well, i think the premise the argument is that the labour may not get an overall majority and i think i would expect that because the tories are ruthless. i mean even if they flounder for the next or so, the way they conducted , as so, the way they conducted, as we painfully know in the is a

sort of utterly ruthless and focussed and you know, labour may , you know, be overestimating may, you know, be overestimating support at the moment so we could get into a hung parliament situation. i think the lib dem approach would be to be support , to probably not think about the coalition but not to support a, you know, new government constructively and you know the price if you put it like that will almost be electoral reform , not simply because it is good for us, but because the system is just not working well. we're getting governments are unrepresentative in which small parties , just us but the greens parties, just us but the greens and basically of parliamentary life which is not good for the country reform on the right. oh yeah. well not. no, i mean for i should have been in parliament arguing this, not sitting outside. i'm no absolutely they should be that . so think that should be that. so think that would be the price. i think the labour party understand that they have adopted it as part of

their party policy . they have adopted it as part of their party policy. i think it would be in their manifesto . it would be in their manifesto. it wouldn't then need a referendum on this question of how, how much their priorities we may get. we may get a blair type landslide, in which case they may be, well, we don't need anybody's help, so we'll forget about them. but i think that's would say one in three, one and two possibility that this could could happen . okay. and so could happen. okay. and so you've referred to your new writing career amongst the new things that you are doing now . things that you are doing now. you wrote a book this year called how to be a politician . called how to be a politician. what in view is the most common mistake that new mps make? well, i think in general politicians suffered from the danger of self—importance . the way i start self—importance. the way i start the is recognising not just in britain but in very countries politicians are the least

trusted of all professions for a variety of reasons. you know, the fact that you have to compromise , you're making compromise, you're making promises you can't keep, all of those things. so politicians not with a with public trust deficit . and i think you have to be listening to the public and not treating yourself as this terribly self—important individual , terribly self—important individual, which i think politician's instincts to do so. but that would be the thing. and i think my second is you get a lot of adversity and i took me 30 years from the first parliament to get here and you know, you have to be patient and people just give up at the first hurdle, you know never going to get anywhere . it's interesting . get anywhere. it's interesting. your first wife, olympia , was your first wife, olympia, was diagnosed breast cancer in 1987. you lost . her diagnosed breast cancer in 1987. you lost. her in 2001 . how do you lost. her in 2001. how do you come to terms with . the love

you come to terms with. the love of your life? i guess well, it was a very , you know, loving, was a very, you know, loving, supporting relationship. and, you know, i'm incredibly lucky that i had a, you know, a lovely woman. i was married, too, but it didn't mean the end of a life was trying to combine public a job and being a carer which is not easy . but you know, she not easy. but you know, she supported me through very difficult times. i kept it on the parliament and failing. but you know, she encouraged me not to give up even when she was able, you know, which was and i think politicians have that support save, you know, loving family , you know. so much family, you know. so much stronger for it. i mean , i think stronger for it. i mean, i think we don't often get into the role of a partner in a relationship, but it's often more crucial than you . the superficial impression you. the superficial impression give absolutely . you remarry . give absolutely. you remarry. you're married , rachel,

give absolutely. you remarry. you're married , rachel , now. you're married, rachel, now. i that you still have to wedding bands. yeah well, i'm. i'm one of these incredibly lucky people who's happily married twice , you who's happily married twice, you know, two lovely women have sort of crossed my at the right moment. and it's sort , you know, moment. and it's sort, you know, it's one of the great strengths of life , actually. and it's not of life, actually. and it's not just that. but their families have come together . so i've got have come together. so i've got a very large extended family. rachel has a significant number of grandchildren . i have three. of grandchildren. i have three. and, you know , we're not an and, you know, we're not an extended family in the old fashioned sense, but virtually and sometimes in time. so it's a great strength and happiness in life. yeah. you in strictly come dancing in the christmas show your love ballroom dancing sort of thing about strictly come dancing we don't know well i was feeling i was pushing the

boundanes feeling i was pushing the boundaries because was a cabinet minister at the time so i wasn't quite in the same position as ed balls. and then with it come people like that . but it was people like that. but it was fantastic . and i say on six or fantastic. and i say on six or seven lessons beforehand just to prepare prepare the dance and it was quite a bad time. i mean not a whole lot of really bad were happening of the coalition at time. we just had the tuition fee issue and my problems with news international various things of that kind and came as a bit of light relief in the middle of it but it was actually very intense. i mean, you you don't rerun it. you know, it's live in real time and. i'd completely messed up dress rehearsal but fortunately the final went well and i got a ten from len . the ten from craig, i from len. the ten from craig, i think it was well, amazing. so it turned out well and people now remember me for they have no idea what i did. then the coalition government for five years. but they do remember that love it . thank you very

years. but they do remember that love it. thank you very much. vince cable . coming up. vince cable. coming up. employment minister guy opperman . if you have a baby under 24 weeks, you can't have validate its existence. you can't have a birth certificate or a death certificate. it's extra ordinarily difficult . and this ordinarily difficult. and this certification of life , death, certification of life, death, particularly when they are stillborn stillborn .

on monday . and tonight, in my on monday. and tonight, in my big opinion, the media establishment will stop at nothing to reverse brexit. it might take it ten. i'll be deaung might take it ten. i'll be dealing with the bbc who are planning to dumbed down their content to attract viewers. the channel which brings you pointless is getting more pointless is getting more pointless by day . my mark pointless by the day. my mark meads guest is legendary ex—tory mp gerald howarth and in the big question could smaller parties decide the next election ? i'll

decide the next election? i'll be asking ann widdecombe and vince cable, big sam vince cable, plus big sam allardyce on the football. we're live . live. at nine. guy opperman , conservative mp guy opperman, conservative mp since 2010, we. we're going to start this interview by talking about tough periods in your life about tough periods in your life a tough period for you and your wife flora who gave birth to teddy and rafe. you lose them both in 2020. can you tell me what happened after flora had given birth ? well, it was a very given birth? well, it was a very long week in thomas's hospital, and we chose intimacies so i could do it because right next to last comments and her birth was quite complicated . her was quite complicated. her pregnancy was quite complicated . it's a very long week where we

tried to keep the boys alive and one came and went rather quickly . and then we spent four or five days trying to keep the second child alive. and sadly, that didn't happen . and so we spent didn't happen. and so we spent a long week in the hospital and i couldn't really be there beforehand because of covid. and i certainly i wasn't able to send any maternity appointments whatsoever . and as a send any maternity appointments whatsoever. and as a consequence of that, i felt sort of that i was not as engaged or as helpful or as. and you go through the process of could i have done anything more to help her or them to survive? and you come to terms with that over a period of time. do you think they expect donations on men going through such a traumatic process are different to the expectations placed on mums? well, i think mums that we're on a journey, aren't we? so 20 years ago, even ten years ago people lost

children and it was a very matter of fact these things happen, move on. don't worry, you'll have further children . you'll have further children. whereas everybody now, except i hope that there is great trauma for the woman in particular, for obvious reasons. but the for the woman in particular, for obvious reasons . but the parents obvious reasons. but the parents , the father, the part owner goes through just as much trauma and sadness and is almost it's the inability to do anything about it because men are trying to. so we try and solve problems and fix stuff. and it's that incapacity to do anything is very, very frustrating and very saddening. and you have to come to terms with that. but listen, we've all been on a journey. it is way, way better as a society, as a health service and as an acceptance between adults of the trauma of baby loss than it even trauma of baby loss than it ever, ever was before . do you ever, ever was before. do you think there are any public policy changes that could have made such a terrible experience any any easier ? have we come far

any any easier? have we come far enough as a society ? so there's enough as a society? so there's an awful lot that many of us are doing is to campaign on this. so as part of baby loss awareness week and a variety of charities and campaigns that are being run by some esteemed charities. i think there's a few things. the first would be a sort of uniformity of care throughout the country . so if you have the country. so if you have a traumatic incident and lose a child in x trust, you can be treated very differently and y trust and that's not necessarily because they're worse or that they are better. it's because there just isn't really the standard practise. there isn't the degree of teaching and learning across different trusts. there isn't the specialisations that we probably need to have. you need to go forward down the route that people out with stroke and various other health policies in the past. and there are certain key things. so if you have a baby under 24 weeks, you can't have validate its existence. you can't have a birth certificate or a death certificate . it's

or a death certificate. it's extraordinarily difficult . this extraordinarily difficult. this certification of life or death, particularly when they're stillborn, is very, very hard. and i've talked about it in the house of commons recently in the debate during baby loss awareness week , and that sort of awareness week, and that sort of stuff needs to change and is in the process. i believe, of being changed. did you feel any pressure to go back to work sooner than you were ready ? so sooner than you were ready? so i was a government minister at the time. i was taking forward two pieces of legislation. one of which was in relation to the triple lock and i was no one else could do the legislation. and i had about i took a week off when and the house was sitting at that time when the boys got sick and then died and then i went back to work. slowly but surely , i think it's a very but surely, i think it's a very difficult job to say you're not going to go back to work for you, that you've done this job just as much as i have, and you kind of have to crack on with

it. i had a lot of support from colleagues, but also you just need to get on with it to a certain degree. now i'm quite a robust character that robust character in that respect. i, i know that my wife would never have been able to go back to work, that quickly. and many couples would have many other couples would have really , really struggled. so really, really struggled. so there is a great deal of pressure in an employment situation that needs to be understood and there is a bill going through the house of commons in the private member's bill that i very much support , bill that i very much support, which has when you have a neil nato loss, that there is a degree of time off. certainly the next day i was utterly useless as a minister, as a member of parliament. will the government support those measures? i think they are. it's still , i measures? i think they are. it's still, i think, in embrace, as you know, with pms, it's a process negotiation. but i believe they yes did you believe they are. yes did you seek counselling? did you have to take any medical emotion? those are personal questions and you don't have to answer them if you. no, no, that's fine. i didn't take any medication. i'm

we little bit of we had a little bit of counselling. the main thing we counselled each other. i think you, you really understand your marriage . you really understand marriage. you really understand a relationship . you are you try a relationship. you are you try and be as kind as you possibly can to your partner , but also can to your partner, but also your self. and being kind to yourself is probably the most important thing . and it is so important thing. and it is so easy to get into a circle of blaming yourself or blaming circumstances or seeking to blame others and, you know, bad things happen to good people. this is not a it's not a fair. world do you mark their birthdays and. oh, yeah, absolutely . yes. i'm so very absolutely. yes. i'm so very much so. i mean, it's a birth fest because obviously it was over a week long period and we are very much celebrating . are very much celebrating. remember them and it helped. we bought a very adorable fox red

labrador to basically take her mind off. it went straight out, bought a labrador we took away for ages . i bought a labrador for ages. i bought a labrador who is the most spoilt dog in the world and so the kind of her gotcha day is pretty much their birthday . and i'm yes you don't birthday. and i'm yes you don't forget this it stays. i've met mums because i'm now a big campaigner on this. i've met mums and dads who thought 40 years on are still traumatised and remember bring and commemorating the loss of their child, some of whom didn't get over the line because you know , over the line because you know, the miracle is that so flora could not give birth in a normal way, had to have ivf . now ivf is way, had to have ivf. now ivf is a miracle thing , but i've met a miracle thing, but i've met parents who are 30 to 40 years old that older than i am, who had one shot and couldn't do it again for obvious reasons. yes. and that is very, very difficult for them. obviously, if you can move on, try and have the

children try and build your life , then life gets a lot easier. but you don't ever , ever forget but you don't ever, ever forget the experience . and you know, i the experience. and you know, i always say that i have had three children. i've just had one take home child . and you have home child. and you have christopher during four months ago, christopher was born joyful, but must be particularly joyful, but must be particularly joyful , i wonder, joyful, but must be particularly joyful, i wonder, and exhausting and exhausting because under the ice i look terrible. i wish i had a tonne of makeup. i don't have any makeup, but i've got enough for both of us. okay. all right. i'm when you have lost to children, do you feel anxiety about your take home child or do you just feel . i'm yes. i think you just feel. i'm yes. i think any parent is struck by how remarkably fragile that child is. and you suddenly realise that awful burden of responsibility in a way that is way, way more than you ever

thought it would be. i think clearly you worry that this may be your only shot at this , but be your only shot at this, but also slightly when you've been to the trauma that we've been. it's actually makes parenting easier because slightly you don't sweat the small stuff. and i try and live my life particularly since 2011 and i had a brain tumour. i'm not worrying about things that are clearly aggravating, upsetting or you know him. i had a particular incident where i was meant to be giving and you know this i was meant to be giving a speech on saturday night in my constituency seat and i was wearing a nice jacket and a nice pair trousers and a nice pair pair of trousers and a nice pair of shoes. and i held said child, and vomited over me . you and he vomited all over me. you mentioned that you had a brain tumour . yeah, i've had all the tumour. yeah, i've had all the injuries , so i mean, i broke 22 injuries, so i mean, i broke 22 bones as a jockey when i was a lot thinner and i've got a

restructured shoulder, i've got a splenectomy scar here because i was taken out after a fall at stratford . and then i was doing stratford. and then i was doing the budget in 2011. and i often say the budget nearly killed me and i collapsed in the central lobby and i had a brain tumour the size of about your fist . so the size of about your fist. so a lady's fist on the sort of back left of my head and a nice surgeon called neil kitchen . i surgeon called neil kitchen. i tookit surgeon called neil kitchen. i took it out with basically a small chainsaw , though they small chainsaw, though they think if you if you've had to have your lunch apology. so basically they cut your scalp open your skull open with a chainsaw, basically , and kind of chainsaw, basically, and kind of lift that open, take a smaller chainsaw, cut out the tumour and then literally staple you back together after by the way, after the operation where they open your femoral artery, pop a line up through your aorta and because you're worried you're

going to bleed to death, because it's quite tricky when you bleed in head. so they use in your head. so they use a solid ring on basically they have a posh word it, but have a posh word for it, but it's soldiering on and they it's a soldiering on and they singe base the tumour singe the base of the tumour before they chop it out. sorry about that. but then so i'm not very keen on chainsaws anymore. and saws generally not. i wouldn't be very good on anything where i had to be like anything where i had to be like a forester who that's some . a forester who that's some. awake and all of a sudden in a very graphic way you're going, goodness. all right . well, goodness. all right. well, listen, when you have a cancer, you just want to cut out. you know, so they give you the consenting chat. if you if consenting chat. so if you if you're being consented in a hospital , they have say, hospital, they have to say, look, we're going to give a general . we're look, we're going to give a general .we're going general anaesthetic. we're going to be obviously putting a chainsaw to your head, which is not exactly the most simplest of procedures. and you could bleed not exactly the most simplest of pro

percentage and all this and i'm adding it up and it goes well as 1% this and 1% for that, and 1% for this and 1% for that, and 3% for that came out. 8% something disaster would happen. but don't but obviously if you don't have the out, you die in the cancer cut out, you die in six months. so it's a no brainer. you just crack on and hope change . so is good . we hope for change. so is good. we all do. yeah um, a final question and i guess mum's who who are members of parliament get asked this a lot, but perhaps not dance. so i want to ask you , as a new dad with a ask you, as a new dad with a four month old child , is four month old child, is parliament on it's working practises family friendly . i practises family friendly. i think they tried to be but they've got a long way to go. it is not a family friendly job per say . and it's, you know , the say. and it's, you know, the house of commons, the building itself is definitely not family friendly . it is very, very tough friendly. it is very, very tough to have a baby in the house of commons. now, several mums and seven dads and i'm having to do it from time to time are are

trying to do that it's not easy and i think that explains sometimes why some people just go look at the work life balance is too complicated . you're is too complicated. you're seeing several mums for example, beginning to think about am i going to continue and stay and do this very tough job in circumstances where, you know, you've done this job, it's a 60 hour a week job. it's very tough to bring up children, be in two places at once and also manage childcare and children in circumstances where you're trying to be as good as an mp as you want to be, but also you're trying to be as good a parent as you want to be. now, lots of people have these problems, but there's no that doing that there's no doubt that doing that in pubuc there's no doubt that doing that in public eye is very in the public eye is very complicated. if there was one change that be made to how change that could be made to how parliament works, i think it's more office support for more back office support for those parents who have children. so that in reality it works better for them and possibly some sort of parental pairing

that would be . but the whips are that would be. but the whips are trying to work on that to be honest. but then you get to type votes, then things get complicated . you know that as complicated. you know that as well as i do . it's really a real well as i do. it's really a real pleasure to chat you. thank you for your openness. my pleasure . for your openness. my pleasure. and good luck with them . the and good luck with them. the effects of the changes so far, but more importantly, with four month old christopher. yeah, the change. so it doesn't matter. the four month old does . thank the four month old does. thank you. you've been watching gloria meets join me every sunday as 6:00 only on gp news. looking ahead to this evening's weather and the uk is looking cold and cloudy for many with showers feeding in from the east. let's take a look at the details in the southwest , it'll details in the southwest, it'll be mostly drive, but it could be

a few showers and should also be a few showers and should also be a few showers and should also be a few breaks in the cloud in the southeast , it will be largely southeast, it will be largely cloudy. the cloud will stop temperatures from dropping to low and it will be cold with some rain to much of wales will have a dry evening with the best chance of any clear skies in the south—west with showers further northeast , it will be a cloudy northeast, it will be a cloudy end to the day across the midlands , some showers are midlands, some showers are likely, but they will be intermittent and mostly light . intermittent and mostly light. it'll be a different story in the northeast . the showers will the northeast. the showers will be frequent and heavy at times. the showers could fall as sleet or snow over higher ground . or snow over higher ground. western parts of scotland will stay mostly dry with clear skies, meaning it will be cold. so the east we can expect more cloud and wintry showers this evening and overnight. meanwhile across northern ireland, we can expect some showers mainly towards northern and western

parts with some clear spells in between, but perhaps not as chilly as last night. between, but perhaps not as chilly as last night . showers chilly as last night. showers will continue to feed in from the northeast overnight with chillier and clearer weather in the west . and that's how the the west. and that's how the weather shaping up overnight into tomorrow morning .

hello, i'm ray anderson . free hello, i'm ray anderson. free speech nation is coming up. the first. here are the headlines. well, the match is about to get underway between england and senegal at the world cup in qatar . the africa cup of nations qatar. the africa cup of nations holders were runners up in group a while in group b, the three lions beat wales and iran. but could any draw with the usa ? could any draw with the usa? england are playing without raheem sterling, who is dealing with family matter. the with a family matter. the winners of this game will take on france in the quarter final .