hello welcome back. i'm bethany lc with your top stories from the gb newsroom. argentina have won their third world cup in an exciting game, beating france 42 in a penalty shootout . lionel in a penalty shootout. lionel messi scored twice in a33 draw that featured a hat trick from france's kylian mbappe. the game endedin france's kylian mbappe. the game ended in a shootout where argentina's keeper saved one while another shot from france went wide. many are already considering this match to be one

of the greatest finals in tournament history. in other news, a man has been charged with facilitating attempted illegal entry into the uk . it's illegal entry into the uk. it's after four people died and 39 were rescued from the english channel when a migrant boat capsized earlier this week. kent police say 19 year old ibrahim abdul of no fixed address has been remanded in custody and will appear at folkestone magistrates court tomorrow . a magistrates court tomorrow. a cabinet minister says it's not fair that military personnel are having to cover for public sector workers on strike over the festive period. oliver dowden is urging unions to call off the industrial action , off the industrial action, warning significant pay rises would end up making everyone poorer. more than 1000 troops are expected to cover paramedics and border force staff . police and border force staff. police searching a property in birmingham say they've found what is believed to be the remains of a child. west midlands police have been searching the garden of a house

in handsworth following information about a possible burial . a post—mortem burial. a post—mortem examination will be carried out to establish the cause of death . a 52 year old man has been charged with the murders of a mother and her two young children in northampton . in children in northampton. in cheshire, police found andrew sock, an nhs nurse , and her sock, an nhs nurse, and her children, aged six and four, with serious injuries at a house in kettering on thursday. they all died a short time later. post—mortem examinations determine all three died as a result of asphyxiation. statues shallow of will appear at north hampton magistrates court tomorrow . engineers have tomorrow. engineers have restored power to all homes in shetland today , but burst water shetland today, but burst water pipes have reportedly more than doubled across scotland as a result of thawing ice . more than result of thawing ice. more than 5000 homes were cut off last week as temperatures dropped as low as minus 17 degrees. a major incident was declared after heavy snow, downed power lines .

heavy snow, downed power lines. scottish water has repair teams out in several areas to fix the water supply. you're up to date on tv, online and dab plus radio. this is gb news. now let's get back to andrew doyle . let's get back to andrew doyle. and norwegian actress faces three years in prison for pointing out that men can't be lesbians. elon musk suspends then unser spends journalists on twitter and as we approach christmas, there are the annual calls to censor the pogues fairytale of new york. this is free speech nation . conservative free speech nation. conservative thank you very much for by studio and it's for coming here on a football night. that's fantastic. this, by the way, is free speech nation, the show where we at culture, where we look at culture, current affairs and politics. and course, you up to and of course, we keep you up to date the latest lunacy from date on the latest lunacy from those justice those lovable social justice activists eagerly hunt

activists as they eagerly hunt for thing to cancel. for the next thing to cancel. coming the show , we have coming up on the show, we have got the journalist rosetta. she'll be she spent 12 she'll be here. she spent 12 weeks reading the work of j.k. rowling. couldn't find any evidence and that evidence of transphobia and that finding has not gone down very well . and i'll be well online. and i'll also be joined by writer john oxley. joined by the writer john oxley. he'll studio to tell he'll be in the studio to tell us why the young people of britain up hope and britain are giving up hope and why that could mean bad news for the party. also ella whelan the tory party. also ella whelan from spikes is coming on to tell us about the bbc's censorship of the christmas classic fairytale of new york . and of course we of new york. and of course we can have plenty of questions for my lovely studio audience and from you guys at home and my panellists this evening are leo kearse. and let scheffer . kearse. and let me. scheffer. i should be about i've just been your hometown, new york city, i should say. yes a lot of fun. that's fun for you. you're there. i'm here. yeah, i know. i got to go there. but why you why aren't you there, by the way.7 why aren't you there, by the way? why did you leave? well, you spoke to those people. i did. they like you very much.

they don't like you very much. no, the impression got. no, that's the impression i got. they very i don't they are not very true. i don't care. i was only joking. i forgot how delicate you. no no, no. that really true? they no. is that really true? they they your praises from dawn they sang your praises from dawn till don't have to that. till you don't have to say that. what exactly happened? they told me of about you me all sorts of stuff about you actually. we'll talk about actually. but we'll talk about it break terminal. it in the break terminal. leo, how okay, thank how are you? i'm okay, thank you. i'm being anyway new york. anything like that? no, i'm from dumfries. not quite they dumfries. it's not quite as they only dumfries yeah only name dumfries once. yeah yeah. goes in. yeah. not much goes on in. you wouldn't it dumfries. wouldn't call it dumfries. dumfries it sounds glamorous. anyway, we're going to get some questions studio questions from our lovely studio audience, our first question is from where lyle ? hi, from lyle. where is lyle? hi, lyle. andre . i'm back again. lyle. hi, andre. i'm back again. back again ? yeah. and i want to back again? yeah. and i want to ask you, how is it possible for men to be a lesbian? how is it how is it possible to be lesbian? okay. so this is this story was all over the internet this week. there's a lesbian filmmaker actress tonya. filmmaker and actress tonya. geoff, john , who's facing up to geoff, john, who's facing up to three years in prison in norway for saying that a man cannot be a lesbian. now, this is an

interesting layer because you're a lesbian, you're framed that came before. have nothing. men make the best lesbians. came before. have nothing. men make the best lesbians . she's make the best lesbians. she's wrong about this . and this entry wrong about this. and this entry is and she's she's actually facing three years in jail just for seeing that men can't be lesbians, which is kind of factually correct . it's factually correct. it's interesting how quickly the left went from supporting lgbt rights to incarcerating lgbt people for seeing that they exist, because this is a gay individual. seeing that they exist, because this is a gay individual . yeah. this is a gay individual. yeah. yeah. so. so this is it's sort of flipped to a kind of fantastical levels at this point, isn't it like jail time for saying something we all know to be true? yeah. and even by the rules of woke people, men can't be lesbians because basically if a man or a biological male then says is a woman self—identifies as a woman, then he's not a man anymore. they say, then he's a woman . he's anymore. they say, then he's a woman. he's he's a lesbian. yeah. so this is violating rules on all sides of the cultural debate. this doesn't make any. so, i mean, the safe thing to do would not be to send this lesbian woman to jail for three

years seeing. how about we years for seeing. how about we don't anyone to jail for don't send anyone to jail for anything that be anything they say that would be anything they say that would be a of speech thing. a good freedom of speech thing. you've your first amendment you've got your first amendment in america wouldn't happen there. nothing there. now, of course, nothing like this ever happens in america. no craziness. but i think think it's think it's think i think it's i think it's interesting leo is talking interesting that leo is talking about dressed hugh about this dressed as hugh hefner. yeah you can just see is that i'm happy. but i heard this because it's women attacking men who want to be women. right. which is why does that make you happy? it makes me happy because. because i get to see that basically as a misogynist. i enjoy i enjoy seeing men and men who want to be women and women attacking each other because it means i don't have to. everything everything to. everything about everything about the 40 about you. so these are the 40 years. these are glory years to be a misogynist. yeah. just to watch. cheer on a watch. you can cheer on a biological male punching women biological male punching a women in yeah and you're the in the face. yeah and you're the good person. you're the work. progress person. mean, progress person. i mean, it is a he agrees. liam, we're just agreeing and that agreeing with men and that shouldn't happen. yes, it's astonishing. i on astonishing. louise. i mean, on astonishing. louise. i mean, on a serious like the freedom

a serious point like the freedom of speech, debate people, of speech, debate and people, people no threat to people say there is no threat to freedom of speech. but here you have someone actually potentially serving time potentially serving jail time for that 99% of for saying something that 99% of people be case. people believe to be the case. how can we reached this how can we have reached this point? that's i think we point? i think that's i think we can point because can reach that point because i tell you why. we're tell you why. because we're heading where you heading to a place where you can't offend anybody . right. can't offend anybody. right. i mean, offence. mean, he's about offence. it's a bad offence. it's like a return to the time when the weakest people in the world, weak people, nothing but their people, had nothing but their honoun honour. and if you said something wrong their something wrong about their honoun something wrong about their honour, little honour, no matter how little money no matter how money they had, no matter how powerful, were, powerful, whatever they were, yes, go at yes, they always had a go at you. this is what's you. and this is what's happening now, is that people today, they have they feel they've nothing. they've had they've got nothing. they've had it from powers it taken away from the powers that it's about that be. so if it's about honoun that be. so if it's about honour, should we just do duelling you duelling the idea? you know, maybe the friends if you maybe some of the friends if you take them out. no the pistols at dawn situation dawn kind of situation that would would. it would and would work would. it would and maybe we're heading in that direction with this whole our business. maybe should business. but maybe we should just again. we're just empower people again. we're basically their basically taking away their power, forcing them. power, which is forcing them. so i is brilliant i think this is a brilliant point. andrew i think you're

looking for a bit of humour in it and there's no humour. it's i don't find this funny though, the someone going the idea of someone going to jail i jail for anything they say. i find absolutely i find absolutely chilling. i don't funny at all. don't think it's funny at all. and and the funny. jill what and the and the funny. jill what i love is a clown joke. yeah but those things don't exist. yeah, i pretty horrible i guess it's a pretty horrible talking. talking of things coming mediaeval times coming back from mediaeval times like really feel that like julie. i really feel that the is making a big the patriarchy is making a big comeback. it like comeback. it is like we had a pretty for a good few pretty strong for a good few millennia then was millennia and then there was like, know, the like, you know, since the sixties there's this feminism stuff. and then it went through a and it's going a few waves and now it's going through wave where just through the wave where it's just eating no, we know eating itself. but no, we know men back on top, being men are back on top, thing being the and women and jail the lesbians and women and jail make leo as an anti make love leo as an anti feminist and actually your point is similar to what lot of is very similar to what a lot of feminists now saying, which feminists are now saying, which is the patriarchy back. is that the patriarchy is back. so and i'm so really, you and i'm a feminist. yeah essentially, yeah. their yeah. kind of on their side. anyway, been called a terf anyway, i've been called a terf online, was really online, which was really offended i can't offended me because i can't stand women. okay well, i now realise i should have definitely got a woman on this panel

tonight. anyway, i'm going to move on to a question from danny. where danny? hello, danny. where is danny? hello, danny, hello. i'm danny, how are you? hello. i'm all you. question all right, thank you. question my is, should must my question is, should ela must be sanctioned for suspending journalists twitter ? this is journalists in twitter? this is interesting because, course, interesting because, of course, elon bought twitter $44 elon musk bought twitter $44 billion and then he said that he was doing it in order to preserve speech on the preserve free speech on the platform. and face platform. and let's face it, twitter hasn't free speech twitter hasn't had free speech on for a long on that platform for a long time. know, of time. you know, lots of executives mean, executives there. i mean, specifically, there's been all these files that have been released from that have released from twitter that have proved there proved that, of course, there was a routine censorship policy is particularly that is going on in particularly that tended hit conservative tended to hit conservative accounts and lots of accounts were from from the were nuked from the from the platform good reason platform for no good reason other than they disagree with some those silicon valley 20 some of those silicon valley 20 somethings and elon musk claimed to be sort of tackling that. now he suspended a number of journalists. he's getting a lot of criticism. leo was he right to suspend these journalists? well, his excuse is they well, his excuse is that they were doxing his private location. so clarify what doxing means. if people don't know. so they're revealing where he was

and where his family was through showing flight logs of his showing the flight logs of his private jet. so i mean, it's not as if you can actually claim it unless you have another private jet to fly alongside and you weren't really going to be able to do anything. but i mean, it is quite, intrusive and is quite, quite intrusive and it's, know, it's children it's, you know, it's children and ifs it's, you know, it's children and it's showing and stuff, but it's just showing we've got the power abuses, the abuses, the power. so, you know, we woke silicon we had these woke silicon valley, somethings valley, 20 somethings had the power the abused it. power and then the abused it. i know musk has come in and. know elon musk has come in and. no, no, he's abused. but is it not the case that doxing and revealing location has revealing someone's location has always twitter always been against the twitter rules? and only that, rules? yeah. and not only that, whereas, all these whereas, you know, all these feminists kicked off feminists who got kicked off twitter, one told them twitter, no one ever told them why is. no one why the conservative is. no one ever why was with ever told them why it was with doxing. very clearly stated doxing. it's very clearly stated and has always been very clearly stated twitter terms of stated in the twitter terms of service. you can't do that. yeah, flight are yeah, but the flight logs are publicly yeah, but the flight logs are puii'my about this so i'm confused about this because some people say that the flight logs public a public flight logs are public a public information. people said flight logs are public a public inforthis on. people said flight logs are public a public inforthis was people said flight logs are public a public inforthis was doxingeople said flight logs are public a public inforthis was doxingecdon'taid that this was doxing i don't know where but if it know really where some but if it is the case that elon musk is

censoring political censoring his political opponents, and opponents, that's wrong. and that not that absolutely should not happen. criticise. no, happen. we should criticise. no, no, at all. the problem is, no, not at all. the problem is, is you very naive to believe is you are very naive to believe that meant he said and that he meant what he said and maybe did what do you maybe he did mean. what do you say i happen to be a free speech? absolute artist. yes. you're free speech? you're a speech. free speech? absolutely yes. we're all free speech until speech absolutists until they come right. he come after us. right. and he spent $44 billion, which maybe come after us. right. and he speeven'r4 billion, which maybe come after us. right. and he speeven spention, which maybe come after us. right. and he speeven spent $i,oo0,000,000. he even spent $i,oo0,000,000. who financial who knows what the financial arrangements should arrangements are? but he should have to say, i don't have a right to say, i don't want this guy because he's platform. this is his platform. but then behaving but then he's behaving like a king . he's actually being like a king. he's actually being like a guy who owns a restaurant and he says, you know what? i don't want you in my place. i'll tell you what, if i own twitter, i wouldn't be banning people for criticising ban criticising me. i would ban people for revealing my location or sort of, you know, libelling or sort of, you know, libelling or whatever, not or whatever, but not not criticising. was worse criticising. and it was worse than because guy than that because the guy some guy jumped car. his they guy jumped on his car. his they thought was there, but his thought he was there, but his kid was then his kid was probably screaming, crying, saying horrible. saying this, that's horrible. okay. there any scenario okay. but is there any scenario and i wouldn't and you would. andrew i wouldn't ban ban just

ban anyone. i ban you just that's leo there any that's it. leo is there any scenario where, how can this work how can twitter work? it's work? how can twitter work? it's always got to be by always got to be owned by someone, and whoever is owning it is going to have some kind of partisan belief, right? well if we're social we're going to have social media, on the blockchain media, there's on the blockchain and and it's and nobody owns it. and it's also self—sustaining also a self—sustaining collective. until collective. but until we until we that's we reach that, that's necessarily communism. don't necessarily communism. i don't think be think it can actually be achieved. worries me about achieved. what worries me about this is the eu have actually threatened twitter with sanctions and nevertheless they never twitter with never threatened twitter with sanctions when were sanctions when they were when they donald trump they were banning donald trump or banning the babylon or banning banning the babylon bee, the satirical news site. so why is it just shows that the eu is no playing partisan politics as well. and although i don't agree with people being banned from twitter, there is a sense of schadenfreude. all these of schadenfreude. all of these sort that's sort of journalists, you that's the key sorry, i was i was the key word. sorry, i was i was just trying inclusive. but just trying to be inclusive. but the is, all of these the thing is, all of these journalists never journalists who they never complained censorship complained about the censorship on they on twitter, in fact, they cheered yeah. and now all of cheered on. yeah. and now all of a sudden, they found their free speech it's speech credentials because it's happened and they sent happened to them and they sent so often wailers. you know, so often the wailers. you know, you that censorship is

you can say that censorship is great the one who great until you are the one who gets exactly. and gets banned. exactly. and you can freedom features can say freedom is features great there's coming it great until there's coming it come after you. it works both ways. the fact is the fact the fact is we're heading to a time when are are are both when people are are are are both sides totally sides have been totally mistreated . people on the right mistreated. people on the right have completely mistreated have been completely mistreated on facebook for on twitter and facebook for years now hope that years. and now let's hope that the other side have been and then they'll all say, you know what, let's have a little peace. well, you know what? that's a lovely and i just hope lovely idea. and i just hope everyone come everyone does kind of come together speech together because free speech should not about left or should not be about left or right, should be right, should it should be non—party issue. anyway, non—party an issue. anyway, we've got a question. a we've got a question. have a mary. mary. hi. mary. mary. hello hi. universities using equality laws to speech at to restrict free speech at universities equality universities using equality laws to free speech. well, to restrict free speech. well, the the higher education the head of the higher education watchdog has issued a warning to universities. susan universities. this is susan lockwood who's chief lockwood, who's the chief executive office for executive of the office for students, has universities students, has said universities prevent free speech by too often leaning more fully into equality rules than the law supports. leah we've known this for a long time, so a lot of the time

people will hide behind inclusivity, diversity in order to objectively. to censor objectively. and that's that play that's the trick that they play and now it's coming and that but now it's coming from equality watchdog. now from the equality watchdog. now we've got kind of behind we've got some kind of behind this right? yeah. this criticism, right? yeah. i mean, lady slash mean, this lady slash in equality, diversity, inclusion legislation, hate speech legislation. legislation, hate speech lega lation. legislation, hate speech lega shield to protect people as a shield to protect people from discrimination or , you from discrimination or, you know, anything that's going to hurt their feelings, know, hurt their feelings, you know, based character tactics. based on the character tactics. but it's being used as a as but no, it's being used as a as a sword. it's turned into a weapon to attack, to attack people with the wrong opinions and silence people you see. so now we're back idea of a now we're back to this idea of a fence. and lewis, were fence. and lewis, you were saying that lot the saying earlier that a lot the problems the free speech problems with the free speech battle that really this comes battle is that really this comes down to being offended down to people being offended and therefore wanting down to people being offended an silence therefore wanting down to people being offended an silence people. refore wanting down to people being offended an silence people. can'e wanting down to people being offended an silence people. can'e weverg to silence people. can we ever get back a position where get back to a position where when we're offended, sort when we're offended, that's sort of and we you know, of our problem. and we you know, we deal our own we have to deal with our own sense of personal defence. it's not better system, i think it is, we don't need the state is, but we don't need the state to in tell the to come in and tell the university what to do and that is problem this is the is the problem and this is the problem you always do problem that you always miss. do you? it. the big you? you miss it. the big

problem is why do we have problem which is why do we have an office of getting people to have the number of you have the same number of you know, on campus. why do know, speakers on campus. why do we do we need we need it? why do we need a government office of equality? no, is there is no, i get it. there is there is something odd about the government of forcing government sort of forcing universities to adopt free speech yeah, feels speech policy. yeah, it feels kind of self contradictory, doesn't it? yeah, certainly. the principle be sufficient. principle should be sufficient. you would you think the universities would want to do it themselves? because the learning is based on the discussion of ideas and the free discussion of ideas and people speak people being able to speak freely hold opinions that freely and hold opinions that might people. might offend other people. i mean, galileo, the mean, galileo, all the all the great ideas that pushed forward technological progress technological or social progress have been hugely offensive to people. galileo say that the earth went around sun earth went around the sun instead of sun going round the earth. galileo silenced. if earth. galileo was silenced. if you he you remember correctly, he basically and basically stopped talking. and number is that is that why number two is that is that why should the tell universal should the state tell universal etis what to do? we have so many universities in this country. surely one of them will will stand up for free speech. can i ask you this? would you have supported the of supported the silencing of galileo? i heard when i galileo? when i heard when i heard what he was threatened

with, i would have said galileo just keep it down. yeah. even if he should have been a bit more sensible. yeah. do you know what? what they what? you know what they threatened? they threatened me. they. showed him they. they just showed him the pope his best buddy. this incredible story. his best buddy became pope. and galileo said, while best buddy is the pope, while my best buddy is the pope, i say whatever i want to i can say whatever i want to say. no. work that way, say. no. doesn't work that way, does that with does it work that way? that with the you better keep quiet the pope, you better keep quiet and they end and what they did was with galileo, him was with galileo, they took him to a and they showed him to a room and they showed him the and that was the rack. yeah. and that was enough. that was enough. enough. and that was enough. but he his ended up he sort of changed his ended up on house arrest, but it was on the house arrest, but it was a part of town with a nice a nice part of town with a nice you can do so. but anyway, after the break on free speech nation, i'm going to talk to the writer rosetta, who is tasked with searching rowling's searching jfk rowling's work for transphobic and transphobic content, but lo and behold, find any. so behold, couldn't find any. so she'll to us all she'll be here to tell us all about that. in a minute.

welcome back to free speech tonight. stick with me, andrew doyle, the writer and journalist rosetta was tasked earlier this year with writing an article called 20 transphobe j.k. rowling quotes we're done with . rowling quotes we're done with. however, after combing through rowling's work and tweets, she could not find any evidence of transphobia. and when she tweeted to that effect, she was met with a backlash . so i'm met with a backlash. so i'm delighted to say that rosetta joins me now. good evening . joins me now. good evening. thanks for coming . so let's thanks for coming. so let's start with your background. your background is as a journalist, you've written for a variety of different publications and then you commissioned to write you were commissioned to write this piece. sounds like the this piece. it sounds like the headune this piece. it sounds like the headline the piece headline of the piece they commissioned, already commissioned, they'd already got a that a conclusion in mind is that right? yeah, do. i'm right? yeah, they do. i'm a content writer as well as a journalist and ghost—writer. journalist and a ghost—writer. yeah, on this occasion what yeah, so on this occasion what happens is a monday meeting comes around and you know, maybe 30 people will be in there and it came to the part of the

meeting where it was thrown out. okay, so who's on the lgbt to beat this week? and then they turned it around and said, i bet j.k. rowling's being transphobic, so let's do one of those who can do that. and i'm ashamed to say i kind of put my hand up and i went, oh, i can do that. how about. and they come up with 20 j.k. rowling tweets or quotes. i said, how about or quotes. so i said, how about how about 20? we're done with? and they went, so do you actually came up with the idea for the title, just the last page. just the last besides. okay, interesting. okay, that's interesting. and behind then any behind you in your mind then any ideas of the kind of quotations you thinking over kind you were thinking over the kind of that said? of things that she'd said? because i have to be honest, i've read everything she's written topic. written about this topic. you know, essay she wrote know, that big essay she wrote on website, i've read on her website, i've read through tweets, i've through her tweets, etc. i've never or seen any never found or seen any transphobic but did transphobic quotation, but did you have something in mind? yeah you won't find them because there aren't any. i've learned that hard way. i thought that the hard way. i had thought i was utterly convinced she i was utterly convinced that she was because i'd seen

was transphobic because i'd seen it so many times i'd not even read the headlines , really. not read the headlines, really. not even got into the articles. but when something comes across your feed, many times believed feed, so many times i believed it and i saw that she'd written the essay. i didn't read it. i read what other people had said about it, right? and so i thought, okay, this will be quite easy. and article like that will be i can knock it out quite and, and i'm sure quite quickly and, and i'm sure it will go very well. so i took the assignment and then i had to do the research and that's what. so at that point when you take a risk, when you've got a sort of predetermined idea what predetermined idea of what you're and you you're going to find and you don't it, the temptation don't find it, is the temptation to and fudge it a little bit to try and fudge it a little bit or and maybe write something or try and maybe write something that will please the publisher. or ended up doing, just or as you ended up doing, just saying what found. well, saying what you found. well, i kept the pushing the kept putting the pushing the deadune deadline back. okay. so, you know, get the i on monday, know, you get the i on monday, you get your five articles to write. so i kept sort of substituting them, you know , substituting them, you know, hoping would notice. then hoping no one would notice. then at week point , i at the five week point, i started getting chased for it .

started getting chased for it. and then after 11 weeks, i was given the right deadline monday. otherwise we're giving the title away. so i had to sort of think, okay , i could still write it out okay, i could still write it out . but in the experience during the research , i obviously went the research, i obviously went to j.k. rowling's words herself and it all came to me sort of at once.i and it all came to me sort of at once. i realised this isn't a transphobic woman at all. this is someone fighting for women's rights. so why is it you do think that so many people claim that she is a transphobe and are insistent about it? you know, and discussions with and i've had discussions with people that's say, people online and that's say, well, with any claim that they make from side of the make from any side of the political would political spectrum, i would say what evidence for that what is your evidence for that claim? if can't find claim? because if you can't find that i think as that evidence, then i think as an adult, your responsibility is to revise your position. why do you people are you think so many people are refusing either look the refusing to either look at the evidence or they have to evidence or once they have to revise position revise their position accordingly? lot accordingly? i think has a lot to with peers in the to do with our peers in the community. so, you know, there's the umbrella of kinship fellowship and you know , one

fellowship and you know, one fold and all for one. so when a trans person says this is transphobic, you believe them. that's the number one rule of allyship. and you know, i'm a translator, trans advocate or have been for ten years. and i doing the research phase went to all these people in my real life and online and the list of excuses i was given as to why they couldn't show me anything varied from oh, she just is going google j.k. rowling transphobic which you must say you know you must admit that's leading to oh, i won't do your research for you. so i was sort of deflected. and then when i went to sort of really study what she had been saying , i what she had been saying, i found myself agreeing. firstly with everything that she said and i couldn't find a single sort of transphobic message . sort of transphobic message. well, whenever tried to and well, whenever i've tried to and i tried to and look at i have tried to read and look at the people who are making the claims them seriously, claims and take them seriously, and articles to and those articles tend to be just bad faith just a series of bad faith interpretations of what she said

and not addressing what she's actually that's actually said. so that that's what confirmation bias. what we call confirmation bias. yeah, of course. yeah. and that's very, very, very dangerous, isn't it? particularly such particularly when it's such serious allegations. is. and particularly when it's such seriouitallegations. is. and particularly when it's such seriouit went tions. is. and particularly when it's such seriouit went from is. and particularly when it's such seriouit went from clickbait where it went from a clickbait article much of usually is . article so much of usually is. have you ever had something come up in your feed and it's why lesbians are like cats. and you think, who writes that drivel? oh all the time. that's me. i like that kind of access. so content providers that say, yeah, yeah, yeah. and but this was more of it. it turned into more of a journalistic thing. okay so i kind of thought, this is quite a dangerous topic. this is quite a dangerous topic. this is very serious allegation to is a very serious allegation to be making, to say that j.k. rowling is transphobic. i believed it because i had been shown screenshots of things she'd said . shown screenshots of things she'd said. but shown screenshots of things she'd said . but then when i went she'd said. but then when i went to actually look at her words themselves . yeah. and in context themselves. yeah. and in context , it was. so let's talk about what happened then. so you tweeted your findings in a thread, which i read, and that got shared very, very widely . got shared very, very widely. what was the response ? well, the what was the response? well, the

tweet exists . the final deadline tweet exists. the final deadline was coming up and instead of submitting the article, i put you know , one, two, three, four, you know, one, two, three, four, and then the attachments and the tweet exists because i wanted to link to a reason this time i sort of i had maybe 20 followers, which is a lot that's a lot of people who've sort of read my work and then come and followed me but that's why followed me and but that's why the tweet exists, because i then put the link in. i said, i cannot write it. i'm sorry and see below as to why. yeah, i thought maybe ten people would see it , but thought maybe ten people would see it, but it, it it just exploded . and of course exploded. and of course when anything goes viral on twitter, you get every possible kind of response, don't you? what kind of responses have you had at the beginning ? and the first thing beginning? and the first thing that happened was i got a notification, it was instant that i was an analyst called transphobes. okay. so there's no way of taking yourself off that list , but it way of taking yourself off that list, but it serves two purpose.

that is, first of all, if you want to block everyone, that is a transphobe, you can do so. fair enough . so you're on this fair enough. so you're on this block list now. okay. okay. and the other the other thing, it serves the purpose it serves is if someone is on twitter and just fancies being mean to a transphobe, they can just go down the list. so i got a lot of people find me that way and just sort of i got anything from death threats to threats of sexual violence to my a picture of my head on at sexual violence to my a picture of my head on a t a dead body, let's say. and your next quite violent imagery, violent threat. i mean, so that kind of thing , i mean, so that kind of thing, that just seems to be par for the course for social media, doesn't it? just really horrible kind of behaviour. why you kind of behaviour. why do you think we've reached this point where people have where people can't have a sensible discussion about sensible adult discussion about disagreements? know disagreements? what so you know , of issues, why , even of sensitive issues, why can't you know, is it the can't you know, why is it the case that people who say that they're concerned about women's spaces are automatically branded as when it's as transphobic when it's perfectly to be

perfectly possible to be concerned women's spaces concerned about women's spaces and trans equality ? and to support trans equality? exactly. i am i don't know the answer completely , but i think answer completely, but i think it comes back to that sort of peer gratification and being part of the lgbt community. see, if i go with community. so queer community. okay, okay. within the community, if you if you try and step outside the bubble, you're seen as immediately, why aren't you why are you doing that? is there is there a is there a reason when the reason for me was just i can't write it, that's all. i couldn't find it, that's all. i couldn't find it to be transphobic to the point where i could write the article. do you now regret writing the thread that caused so much attention, or do you think it was the right thing to do? yes and no. absolutely wasn't prepared twitter wasn't prepared for the twitter storm. it was my first rodeo. i'm quite a private person, quite shy, really. so having a situation where you're sort of getting so much thrown at you is

quite overwhelming. but then something amazing happened and i'm not going to pretend i was like, really cool and doing something else. i was on my phone of watching it . yes. and phone of watching it. yes. and and then i, i was on j.k. rowling's profile and it went she follows me. yeah. and then i kind of went, oh, god , j.k. kind of went, oh, god, j.k. rowling follows me. i'm going to get a telling off . and then the get a telling off. and then the thread . yeah, i went to collect thread. yeah, i went to collect a message her and she was typing . so i kind of, you know, joked rowling is typing. j.k. rowling is typing. and then it was it was a message just as she just was a message just as she just was reaching out to see it. she said, are you okay ? and we when said, are you okay? and we when we had a couple of words back and forth and i was struck by how incredibly gracious that was after everything, me and my kind of done to her, i wouldn't give us the time of day, but she's so

a class act , you know. well, a class act, you know. well, it's a fascinating story. and that's thank you so much for coming to thank you for after the break on free speech nation the break on free speech nation the writer john oxley will be here to tell us why the younger people of britain are becoming so disillusioned. see you in 3 minutes .

welcome back to free speech nation. later in the show, i'm going to be turning agony uncle with the help of my wonderful panel with the help of my wonderful panel, leo kearse and lewis schaefer. and we're going to help at deal with your help you at home deal with your unknown dilemmas. so if unknown filter dilemmas. so if got any problems at all, just email at gbviews@gbnews.uk . email us at gbviews@gbnews.uk. we will do our level best to answer your issues. operator is young giving up hope? an opinion

survey shows only a third of young people will achieve their career goals and only a quarter think they will earn more than the current median wage of £30,000 by the end of the next decade. £30,000 by the end of the next decade . john oxley has written decade. john oxley has written a fascinating article for the spectator about this phenomenon and points out that a disillusioned , younger disillusioned, younger generation could lead to real electoral problems for the conservative party and john oxley joins me now. good evening . good evening. so let's talk a little bit about your article . little bit about your article. you're talking about young people being disillusioned. why are disillusioned ? well, are they so disillusioned? well, i the young people of i think the young people of today have been hit by a kind of a series of crises for all of their adult life. if you're, say, 30 now, you came of age, you started work during the financial crisis. and since then , real wages haven't really gone up at all. growth has been fairly stagnant since then . and fairly stagnant since then. and in the meantime, you've had things like house prices sort of increasing at a much more rapid rate. we've got huge inflation at the moment, but you've got the of sort of the accumulation of sort of a

decades worth of inflation and in a position where they've been stuck with that, they've never seen a real term wages increase and so they're not able to build up savings, building up capital in the way the previous generations have. yeah, well, i saw the other week there was a survey in the telegraph which was that one in ten young was saying that one in ten young people intend to work. now people intend never to work. now id make that choice, do they? because otherwise be because otherwise they might be able or anything. but you able to eat or anything. but you know, that does suggest that your thesis sound. well your thesis is sound. well i think, it does sort of think, yeah, it does sort of play think, yeah, it does sort of play idea that there's play into that idea that there's this idea, sort of thought this idea, this sort of thought going round of what's the point of playing the game if the rewards there at the end, rewards aren't there at the end, whether actually whether those people actually will never working will get away with never working is thing. there's is a different thing. there's a big that even if they big a sense that even if they do, if we do, we won't end do, even if we do, we won't end up in the same position that someone or 40 years ago how someone or 40 years ago did. how aware people of these aware are young people of these sort financial situations in sort of financial situations in housing kind thing? housing and that kind of thing? because when was 18, i9, housing and that kind of thing? because when was 18, 19, 20, because when i was 18, 19, 20, i didn't know anything about any of it does seem strange of that. so it does seem strange that in those that they're thinking in those terms. particularly with

terms. i think particularly with housing, maybe not at housing, okay. maybe not at 1819, particularly when 1819, but particularly when people out of university, people come out of university, as soon as into the as soon as you go into the rental market, you're massively aware you i've aware of it. you know, i've heard properties heard stories of properties going the market for rental going on the market for rental and within 24 hours there's been 80 or 90 people all expressing interest. rents have gone up massively , and particularly in massively, and particularly in the post—covid period . so as the post—covid period. so as soon as you're out of that, then you're being hit by quite high rents. a lot of people at university are suffering the same thing, you know, in some places like bristol manchester, big cities, student are increasingly staying at home because they can't afford to move out to university because of the high rent and you see it when you when you go to the pub. yeah.i when you when you go to the pub. yeah. i remember when i was a student you could go and have a pint for 185. now in london it's fiv e £6 a pint. yeah absolutely. five £6 a pint. yeah absolutely. let's talk about the political ramifications of this. so you mentioned in your article that you think this is bad news for the tories, but have the tories ever really depended on the

votes young people to an votes of young people to an extent? they have this this great myth that the conservatives have always if as you get older , you become more you get older, you become more conservative. if look at conservative. but if you look at when conservative party has when the conservative party has done really you know, you done really well, you know, you look at 1979, 1983 general look at the 1979, 1983 general elections, they also did really well with people under 25, maybe not as well as they did overall, but still much better than they're doing now, even in 2010, david cameron , you know, he was david cameron, you know, he was polling sort of high thirties overall , but solidly in the polling sort of high thirties overall, but solidly in the high twenties with first time voters, whereas now , you know, there's whereas now, you know, there's some polling that suggests, you know, even under 40 or even under know, even under 40 or even undeerfies know, even under 40 or even under fifties , the conservatives under fifties, the conservatives are looking at ten, 12% of the share. so can they rely on that old adage that when people get older, going to vote older, they're going to vote tory they have tory if they don't have anything? exactly anything? that's exactly the point . the anything? that's exactly the point. the things that go along with you more with turning you more conservative get is conservative as you get older is owning house. so you're owning a house. so you're worried about interest rates. it's more , so it's earning a bit more, so you're more worried about taxation, whereas i'd argue if

that's not there, then why are you going to vote conservative? you're not that interested in taxes being lower. you're more dependent on public services and you don't have that building up caphal you don't have that building up capital. you're sort of you're closed out of capitalism. and what's the point of a party that is a capitalist party? so where does this leave labour? do you think that labour is the more attractive option the attractive option for the younger think is. younger vote? i think it is. i think that's the polls are showing across board, showing us all across the board, you it's hard now if you you know, it's hard now if you ask around among youngish people, you to find people, you know, to find someone to be voting someone who's going to be voting conservative, they're really sort in the sort of steeped in the conservative yeah. it conservative party. yeah. and it opens policy angle for opens up a huge policy angle for the party as well to the labour party as well to appeal to those voters. do you think that conservatives think that the conservatives have neglected the young or haven't even really cared or thought about them too and thought about them too much and now they're reaping the consequences? i think that's absolutely case. look absolutely the case. so you look at, you this is a trend at, you know, this is a trend that's been going on for 20, you know, to years. it's been know, 10 to 20 years. it's been getting but the getting worse. but the conservatives been conservatives have been surviving, because surviving, particularly because they're the they're so locked down into the older the pension older person vote, the pension

vote. sort 2017, vote. you see sort of 2017, 2019, you know, the age at which you became more likely vote conservative than not was sort of around the 40 to 50 mark. and that's been pushing up over about or so. so was about 20 years or so. so was there something then too, liz truss , his of rejuvenating truss, his idea of rejuvenating the economic growth, being her watchword and now that appears to not be the priority . you to not be the priority. you can't solve these problems unless you have growth and i think, you know, the strength of liz truss was she she did identify the problem and she did say if we want to have more money in people's pockets, we need to grow the economy overall. also have to be overall. but you also have to be able deliver on that in a way able to deliver on that in a way people have confidence with. and that's went wrong. that's where she went wrong. but, ultimately, if but, you know, ultimately, if you you're you not growing, you're stagnating. there's less stagnating. and if there's less money then that money to go around, then that just means everyone's getting poorer. so you had sort of poorer. so if you had sort of the reins number ten, if you the reins of number ten, if you could determine the could determine which way the party steer in order to party should steer in order to attract these younger voters that desperately need. that they so desperately need. what think they should what do you think they should do? biggest thing is do? the biggest thing is housing. that the

housing. you know, that is the biggest driver of cost among young people. and there's a huge opportunity reduce the opportunity there to reduce the effect the planning restrictions have to get more houses built. another childcare you another thing is childcare you when people get a little bit older start children older, start having children into thirties and it can into their thirties and it can be a huge cost for working parents . there needs to be some parents. there needs to be some sort of answer on their whether it's deregulation, to bring some of the costs down or it is support from the state for those costs. see it in other costs. you see it in other countries around that countries around europe that that into play. that that does come into play. that does help. and you know, those two things which take a lot of the pressure off. and i think also just generally thinking about young people, young families , what they need and families, what they need and really getting that sort of thinking to the heart of the conservative party and weaning themselves off relying on older voters. i mean, might it be about sort of new blood about getting sort of new blood ? about getting sort of new blood 7 might it about getting sort of new blood ? might it figures such as ? might it be figures such as kemi badenoch who might have more a resonate more with more of a resonate more with younger voters that of younger voters that sort of thing? i think what you have to do listen the concerns of do is listen to the concerns of young and that probably young people, and that probably

does and a lower does mean a lower and a lower age of mps. but, you know , rishi age of mps. but, you know, rishi sunak, 42, he's not that he's alienated from this world, but there is an opportunity that certainly at the next election to bring some new blood in or to look to the younger generation within parliament at moment. within parliament at the moment. john thanks much for john oxley, thanks very much for joining . after the break. bbc joining me. after the break. bbc radio two has joined other media outlets to censor the classic christmas song fairytale of new york. is this cultural vandalism or is it just moving with the times? ella whelan will be here to discuss .

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me. andrew doyle . nation with me. andrew doyle. everyone has their favourite christmas song and for many it's the pogues and fairytale of new

york over years, however, pressure has been put on radio stations to edit out two words from the lyrics that are deemed by some to be homophobic and sexist insults. back in two thousand and seven, radio one decided to remove the words as quote. some members of the audience might find them offensive. radio two has now joined the fold this year. journalist and author ella whelan has been writing about this spoke to this week and this for spoke to this week and she now. good evening, she joins me now. good evening, ella this debate appears to be ella. this debate appears to be perennial. it seems as though every year we have a debate about the pogues and kirsty mccoll singing fairytale of new york . and it the case york. and it wasn't the case that radio one decided ages that some radio one decided ages ago weren't going to ago that they weren't going to play ago that they weren't going to play radiate or two play it, but radiate or two always thought, well, we've got an demographic and they an older demographic and they they're it. they're okay with it. something's yeah that's something's changed. yeah that's well, radio well, i mean, various radio stations. went stations. the bbc actually went through one point of through a period at one point of sort having internal debates sort of having internal debates about whether , you about not just whether, you know, play what know, who would play what version or whether give version or whether they'd give one station licence to play the version. and it was kind of extreme , messy. yes. and i think

extreme, messy. yes. and i think pretty much now radio two has had to kowtow to the pressure of people actually , no, that's not people actually, no, that's not right. i don't think. callers have been calling in. no evidence to say that people have been say, listen, been ringing in and say, listen, before hit play on the before you hit play on the pogues button, please, you pogues button, please, will you take f—word? yes but take out the f—word? yes but the. but i think it's just the climate that we live in now, which is that that all these things have to be pre—empted. that's a really good point, because, you know, this is still a really popular song and you don't hear people in arms don't hear people up in arms with complaining about with placards complaining about the is a the f—word, which is a homophobic in people's homophobic slur in some people's views. s—word , which views. and the s—word, which is a slur . and obviously, a sexist slur. and obviously, we're not saying the words because before because we're before the watershed but people don't watershed now. but people don't seem to care. actually, this is just coming from above, isn't it? no. and a hard one to it? no. and it's a hard one to argue about because, know, argue about because, you know, it's the use of the f—word in that song is very is very. it's the use of the f—word in that song is very is very . yes. that song is very is very. yes. and you know, you do of course, there are people who get drunk of christmas time and will sing

that particular word very loudly . but maybe because some of them are hydrophobic, maybe because some of them are, you know, ticked off at the fact that they keep being told they're not allowed to sing it. but the point of that word is that it doesn't mean a homophobic slur in the context of macgowan in the context of shane macgowan wrote you know, the wrote it and you know, the reason saying it's is reason i'm saying it's hard is because you start start to sweat and being some and sound like you're being some kind for kind of apologist for a homophobic but you're homophobic language, but you're not . at the time it was not actually. at the time it was written , that word means, you written, that word means, you know , the etymology it means know, the etymology of it means bundle sticks. and now in irish, in ireland and hibernian , in ireland and hibernian, english, it means lough ible and you kind of lazy, lazy exactly. it's just and you know, the song is between two hetero sexual couple. it would be quite weird for her to call on this, but it just doesn't make sense in any case. and so, you know, there's an important point here, though. it is a kind of a drunk christmas song . you know, shane christmas song. you know, shane macgowan , so many consider him macgowan, so many consider him to be a poet and lots of his

lyrics, though he kind of sings them , you know, half cut and them, you know, half cut and a sort of unintelligible of beautiful , wonderful lyrics . his beautiful, wonderful lyrics. his song, us thing is, we've got incredible lyrics in it. and so, you know, there is a sort of quite important point here, which you are which is that you are technically censoring a song, a poem. someone's a piece of art if you want to go far. they say, well, it is a piece i mean, well, it is a piece of i mean, this isn't like the vengaboys or to a limited something like to a limited or something like this is something that this is this is something that it's narrative, isn't it's actually a narrative, isn't it? argument between it? it's an argument between a couple they've sort couple and they've sort of become disillusioned with their relationship with each other. and it dramatises that through the song. part of that is the song. and part of that is the song. and part of that is the language they use. so the language that they use. so is really about people is this really about people not willing engage the willing to engage with the artistic that people, artistic choices that people, you to his credit? artistic choices that people, ymean, to his credit? artistic choices that people, ymean, shane to his credit? artistic choices that people, ymean, shane macgowan,edit? artistic choices that people, ymean, shane macgowan, his? i mean, shane macgowan, his since, you he has come since, you know, he has come under lot of pressure about under a lot of pressure about this but did at one point this but he did at one point give statement i think was give a statement to i think was arty that was a kind of a arty or that was a kind of a controversy in ireland as well. yes and he said, listen, i've written song this two written this song this two characters are a you characters who are in a you know, have they're not angel. know, have a they're not angel.

i that's what he says. i think that's what he says. that's people who that's pretty nasty people who are out their luck are kind of out on their luck and are drunk and insulting each other that they're not going to use language. they're going use nice language. they're going to language . and, to use unpleasant language. and, you you have to you know, sometimes you have to do order to portray a do that in order to portray a character who's taken it quite seriously. i mean, you know, the pogues account pogues twitter account has tweeted abuse people who have defended the song from censorship. i don't think shane macgowan's behind that i think it might just be a sort of side guitarist to something who's taken with this. but, you taken issue with this. but, you know, know, shane made know, he, you know, shane made the point of, you know, you take the point of, you know, you take the song at its, you know, at its face value. nick cave actually wrote a really great one of his read hand files , a one of his read hand files, a defence that where he said, you know, is something know, a song is, is something that stands on its own and it's imprinted in history and to meddle it is do meddle with it is to do something kind of truly awful. yes. and i think we do have to take that kind of that sort of aspect of artistic censorship seriously , because when you look seriously, because when you look at the excuses of why radio one

and radio two now have banned it, it's not because it's a rude word and it's before the watershed. it's not because, you know, radio doesn't play that kind because they kind of stuff. it's because they imagine young people. imagine that young people. i think one of the phrases that the statement used was younger audiences are more sensitive to gender and issues around gender and sexuality. and you just want to scream. but it's more about gender and sexuality yeah, that's not what this song on this word is about. so is it about a of trust in the in the listeners or younger listeners they able they think won't be able to interpret this in sufficient interpret this in a sufficient way. they'll just hear the word and be offended for the word sake. you know, it's sake. yeah. and, you know, it's i a insult to i think it's a real insult to young people if you imagine that they understand they kind understand the importance so, importance of context. yes. so, you know , frankly, you're an you know, frankly, you're an idiot if you're listening to a christmas song that people have sung you know, the sung for, you know, since the eighties. and imagine you eighties. and you imagine you are the first one in the world to notice that there's a homophobic slur in the middle. yeah i mean, not you've yeah i mean, you're not you've discovered meaning of discovered the hidden meaning of fairytale of york. i mean, fairytale of new york. i mean,

it's ridiculous. no thinks it's ridiculous. no one thinks that a of there's that there's a kind of there's just a sort of knee jerk, i think philistine reaction to it. and i mean, you know, if and also, i mean, you know, if you if you want to into the kind of i know i'm sounding like i'm putting of york up putting fairytale of new york up on pedestal, some kind on a pedestal, some kind of great interesting work art, great interesting work of art, but know, the you but actually, you know, the you know, way irish people know, the way which irish people use english the english language is very interesting about knowing this. there's lots of stuff that we kind of words that don't mean the same thing. so if someone says something's deadly, that means fantastic, right? words like, you know , something words like, you know, something like a cute who is someone who isn't a beautiful prostitute . isn't a beautiful prostitute. this is someone who's like a clever so—and—so, has to be trusted. there's also uses cuss words. i can't say, like not because of it, but there's , you because of it, but there's, you know, it's a really rich people have written theses on this this it's a really rich language and it's a really rich language and it's part of these characters. yeah that's the yeah and you know even if i think you know because you can also feel too

apologetic, even if it was a homophobic slur because i was given money for nothing by the dire straits and stuff like that. most definitely uses that f—word it in derogatory way f—word in it in a derogatory way . we should also . i think we should also challenge idea people challenge the idea that people are so fragile that simply heanng are so fragile that simply hearing that word played on the radio station would send them into some kind of apoplexy. well, that's a good example, isn't in a lot isn't so. for instance, in a lot of eminem's songs, he does use that word in an explicitly anti—gay or perceived to be anti—gay or perceived to be anti—gay way. i mean, you could argue that he's playing a character as well. there's that as well. but but you know, the radio stations haven't by and large played those songs well. they've those words they've always beat those words out. with rap and out. similarly, with rap and gangster the n—word gangster rap, have the n—word beat or just played at all. beat out or just played at all. so is there a case to be made on the bbc's defence to sort of say, they don't play say, well look, they don't play those so isn't the those other songs, so isn't the word just from that, word sufficient just from that, from perspective think from those perspective? i think if the case that it if it if it was the case that it was just an issue of kind of cleaning up and making everything then everything sort of uniform, then i'd have less of a case. but the

fact is this has been, by fact is that this has been, by the own statement, the the bbc's own statement, the idea is that people are idea is that young people are are enlightened than those are more enlightened than those of are the hill. and of us who are over the hill. and so and, you know, we have so then and, you know, we have to order to of satisfy to in order to kind of satisfy the hurt feelings or to protect them from having hurt feelings , them from having hurt feelings, we have to neuter certain words . and that's the thing that annoys yeah the bleeping annoys me. yeah not the bleeping out. so in love with the out. i'm not so in love with the f—word or the word the. it ruins the whole song without me. i mean, customer started mean, customer calls started singing once mr. singing actually, but once mr. live you live started singing you blackguard haggard or blackguard or you haggard or something, they kind of they changed themselves. yes you changed it themselves. yes you know, it's idea know, whatever. but it's idea that you have to censor in order to make things acceptable . so in to make things acceptable. so in in 2022, that is the most annoying. i mean, this is a broader problem with the arts generally. isn't it mean that you had an addition of huckleberry finn was republished without epithets in without the racial epithets in that of course, once that book. but of course, once you the racial epithets you take the racial epithets out, loses its meaning out, the book loses its meaning because it's a satire against out, the book loses its meaning bec racists,; a satire against out, the book loses its meaning bec racists, right. ire against out, the book loses its meaning bec racists, right. well,ainst out, the book loses its meaning bec racists, right. well, that's the racists, right. well, that's that's completely that's a completely different league taking f word out league to taking the f word out of world, because that's of certain world, because that's completely meaning.

completely changing the meaning. yes. an extremely important yes. of an extremely important anti racist book. yes, i suppose . i mean, the principle is similar, but. yeah, but but it's this kind of idea that, you know , that words have no relationship to their context. and that's a very dangerous thing because . it means that thing because. it means that we're completely simplifying the engush we're completely simplifying the english language, which , you english language, which, you know, there are even you know, if you you want to kind of get into the ins and outs of it, there are so many words that mean so many different things. i mean, it's fascinating the reasons why people study it for their lives. yeah, it's an their whole lives. yeah, it's an incredible language incredible rich language that it cannot down into cannot be simplified down into narrow meanings in a narrow political meanings in a certain kind of social, political timeframe. i mean, you say that this is very patronising to young people, you know, particularly, you know, with one banning it, with radio one banning it, but radio not a long time. radio two, not for a long time. but they have a case but don't they have a case insofar as a lot of young people do complained and do and have complained about and they knee jerk reactions they do have knee jerk reactions sometimes words, sometimes to certain words, irrespective of context? it irrespective of context? is it a generational thing? well, i think yes and no, it tends to be

that the you know, the people who play pop about this kind of stuff are younger. and, you know, i would argue stupider and, you know, there is a there's a level here where you kind of have to say young people need to be educated about what's what's and what's wrong what's right and what's wrong in order to form their own opinions at properly as adults. and you have to be challenged have to have to be challenged this kind ridiculous. this this kind of ridiculous. some 19 old tweets, some 19 year old tweets, something we all have to be like. absolutely course, you think, oh my god, this kind of stuff. i came out with when i was 19. i'm glad no one treated me like that. yeah, but then, you know, on the other the other level most young level actually, most young people are not like that. most young are very robust. young people are very robust. most young people, if they're politically able politically active, they're able to kind of to tussle with these kind of ideas and not be frightened of other words. and so i think, you know , i think actually the bbc know, i think actually the bbc is young people is doing young people pretty well. thanks very well. ella whelan thanks very much for joining well. ella whelan thanks very much forjoining us tonight on much for joining us tonight on now for another break. coming up in the second hour of the

program , i'll be asking why the program, i'll be asking why the cambridge dictionary has seen fit to add a secondary definition of the word woman. the independent .

hello there . welcome back. i'm hello there. welcome back. i'm bethany elsey with your top stories from the gb newsroom. argentina have won the qatar world cup after beating france in a thrilling match which saw extra time and a penalty shoot out . fans in extra time and a penalty shoot out. fans in argentina extra time and a penalty shoot out . fans in argentina celebrate out. fans in argentina celebrate with their captain, lionel messi, who has finally won the biggest prize in football. messi scored twice in a33 draw that featured a hat trick for france's kylian mbappe. the game endedin

france's kylian mbappe. the game ended in a penalty shoot out where argentina's keeper saved one while another shot from france went wide. many are already considering the match to be one of the greatest finals in tournament history. in other news, a teenager has been charged with facilitating attempted illegal entry into the uk after four people died while trying to cross the english channel. a major rescue operation was under way early this week after a migrant boat capsized. 39 people were rescued . 19 year old ibrahim abba of no fixed address has been remanded in custody and will appear at folkestone magistrates court tomorrow . a cabinet minister tomorrow. a cabinet minister says it's not fair that military personnel are having to cover for public sector workers on strike over the festive period. oliver dowden is urging unions to call off the industrial action warning significant pay rises would end up making everyone poorer . rises would end up making everyone poorer. more than rises would end up making everyone poorer . more than 1000 everyone poorer. more than 1000 troops are expected to cover paramedics and border force officials as police searching a

property in birmingham say they have found what is believed to be the remains of a child . west be the remains of a child. west midlands police have been searching the garden of a house in handsworth following information about a possible burial. a post—mortem examination will be carried out to establish the cause of death and 52 year old man has been charged with the murders of a mother and her two young children in northamptonshire. police found an assault, an nhs nurse and her children, aged six and four, with serious injuries. at a house in kettering on thursday. they all died a short time later. post—mortem examinations determined. all three died as a result of asphyxia . sacha shell of a—level asphyxia. sacha shell of a—level will appear at northampton magistrates court tomorrow . and magistrates court tomorrow. and engineers have restored power to all homes in shetland today. but best water pipes have reportedly more than doubled across scotland as a result of thawing ice. more than 5000 homes were

cut off last week as temperatures dropped as low as minus 17 degrees. a major incident was declared after heavy snow , downed power lines. heavy snow, downed power lines. scottish has repair teams out in several areas to fix the water supply . you're up to date on tv, supply. you're up to date on tv, onune supply. you're up to date on tv, online and tv plus radio. this is gb news. now let's get back to free speech nation . to free speech nation. and welcome back to playstation nafion and welcome back to playstation nation with me, andrew doyle . as nation with me, andrew doyle. as i've said many times on this nation with me, andrew doyle. as show, one of the key tricks of authoritarian ends is to redefine language in order to reinforce faith in the ruling ideology. so it should come as little surprise to see that members of staff at online dictionaries are busy reading signing terms not in accordance with common usage, which of course is the role of the dictionary. but in accordance with how they see the world so this week, the cambridge dictionary added a secondary

definition to the word woman . definition to the word woman. and this was the definition they've added an adult who lives and identifies female. though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth, what does this mean? what does it mean to live and identify as female? if a woman doesn't wear makeup or cuts her hair short, is she less of a female? if she watches romcoms, has pillow fights and goes prancing in fields of lilac, does she get more woman points? i mean, how does this work. reinstating old fashioned stereotypes of male and female in order to define what a man and a woman is, gets us precisely nowhere. it certainly isn't progressive. and yet that's what activists who believe in gender identity, ideology are currently expecting us to do . because just as the us to do. because just as the implementation of critical race theory in our schools has led to heightened racial division, gender identity ideology takes us backwards in the name of progress . a few months ago, progress. a few months ago, merriam—webster , which is merriam—webster, which is america's oldest dictionary , did america's oldest dictionary, did

something very, very similar. so they added a secondary definition to female, and their definition to female, and their definition reads as follows having a gender identity that is the opposite of male. again this is a somewhat useless definition saying that female is the opposite of male. it's a bit like defining the sun as not the moon . and as with so many things moon. and as with so many things in the culture, war became , the in the culture, war became, the dictionary is simply following the lead of the americans. so let's have another look at this new definition of this is new definition of woman. this is from the cambridge dictionary. they adult who lives and they say an adult who lives and identifies they identifies as female that they may said to have may have been said to have a different sex birth. but how different sex at birth. but how can one be said to have a different at birth? we all have a sex at birth. i mean, it's usually observed and recorded long before birth. activists claim that it is it is a sign as though the midwife just flips a coin. but we all know the truth . more to the point hardly anyone will recognise the cambridge dictionary's new definition of woman . because definition of woman. because although language inevitably involves and the dictionary is meant to record such natural

evolutions , that has not evolutions, that has not happenedin evolutions, that has not happened in this case . rather, happened in this case. rather, just like publishing houses, libraries, museums , theatres and libraries, museums, theatres and other creative and educational industries, online dictionaries have been ideologically captured. and this means that the staff will continue to tweak definitions, not to reflect common usage, but as a form of in the hope that by redefining words, they can modify the way in which we see the world. this is a standard tactic of culture warriors. they pretend that their view of the world represents an established consensus. represents an established consensus . but it doesn't. and consensus. but it doesn't. and for the sake of our sanity, we should probably all get hold of some physical copies of dictionaries, preferably those published in 2010, before the activists gained their chokehold on our society . because perhaps on our society. because perhaps in years to come , we'll need to in years to come, we'll need to have some kind of resource to remind us what words actually mean rather than what activists would like them to mean . the would like them to mean. the novelist philip k dick said that

the basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. and he was right. language always evolves, but when changes , evolves, but when changes, definitions are imposed . that's definitions are imposed. that's the very essence of authoritarianism. we mustn't let them get away with it . i'm very them get away with it. i'm very interested in this idea of definitions, because this has been happening before . the been happening before. the merriam—webster dictionary also added to a redefinition of racism. used mean racism. racism used to mean hatred or prejudice towards people because of different skin colours it means an colours and decided it means an equafion colours and decided it means an equation , prejudice plus power. equation, prejudice plus power. they're to do with they're saying it's to do with the imbalances . and the structural imbalances. and therefore, people can't be therefore, white people can't be therefore, white people can't be the victims of racism at central . in other words, they're using a of racism that very a definition of racism that very few people agree with. what's going they're using going on? they're using a definition of this racist definition of racism this racist because . they that only because. they say that only white can be racist. and white people can be racist. and what's is that the what's interesting is that the new definitions are really kind , saluted and long winded, which that they're kind of contrived

and not really comfortable in themselves. when you've got some of the really works that make sense, it's usually a simple simple thing like, you know. martin luther king said, you know, dream that one know, i have a dream that one day my children will judged day my children will be judged on of their on the content of their character the colour of character than the colour of their . he didn't see within their skin. he didn't see within a paradigm of intersectional power structures . he didn't power structures. he didn't continue with us. more so, it's the same with us with a very simple for what a woman . and it simple for what a woman. and it wasn't transphobic because you know, a trans woman is somebody who identifies that and is, you know, is, i guess, a type of a woman, but a trans woman. and it's not, you know, there's a between people who think that woman is a category and people who think it's an identity. yeah, that's basically the distinction. yeah. this is. isn't it, though? i mean, you isn't it, though? i mean, if you were working a dictionary and were working at a dictionary and you the power to sort of you had the power to sort of change words, just kind change what words, just to kind of your belief of fit in with your belief system, probably take system, you'd probably take that, i imagine that, wouldn't you? i imagine you would. i would. but you know

something? here's where wrong, because the is , is because because the truth is, is that people are using that as a definition. they see they are they see men as women. so why it be in the dictionary anyway? because it's only a very small minority of people who use that definition. whereas, you know, i this idea that language will evolve change and then the evolve and change and then the diction to keep up with that as its role. right. what you've got is of people who is a minority of people who claim widely claim that this is a widely definition, as have just definition, as you have just erroneously and they've erroneously done and they've imposed or actually only imposed it or is actually only a few do you know. why not few people. do you know. why not just what the dictionaries were meant do , which record the meant to do, which is record the way it's being used way in which it's being used normally it being used normally and it is being used that don't see it that way. we don't see it because like older, because we're like older, you know , all these media did shame know, all these media did shame me . well, i'm i'm saying we me. well, i'm i'm saying we don't know what's going on in the world. i think there are lots of people today who will look at a person who we would call man and they would say, then call them the one. and they used a call that a secondary death. okay. but were death. okay. but there were there was a second to there yes, there was a second to definition, but there are lots

of examples the of examples of the politicisation of dictionary. this happened before. you remember when the oxford dictionary pronounced that the word of a year, about four years ago was youthquake? now ago was youthquake? right now youthquake that youthquake was this idea that youthquake was this idea that you had this kind of the you had this kind of that the young people and they young people rising up and they were politically aware were becoming politically aware and was and politically active. it was a really politicised partisan really politicised and partisan term. one was term. yeah. which no one was really yeah. from few really using. yeah. from a few left journalists. left wing journalists. it suddenly becomes word of the yearin suddenly becomes word of the year in oxford dictionary year in the oxford dictionary and everyone stops and then everyone stops using it. i'm only one it. i mean, i'm the only one who's that in the past who's used that in the past three so it's three years. so. so it's definitely political. think definitely political. i think that they they they use that they had they they they use a singular pronoun as word of the year last year. again, something that just has not caught aren't very caught on people aren't very few people it in that way. people are using it in that way. yeah. and people you can see yeah. and the people you can see people mimicking autocrat people mimicking this autocrat and dictators china and and dictators in china and russia like putin says that anybody who describes his war in ukraine as a war is committing a crime and has to go to jail. and it's the same thing if you just describe eddie izzard as as a book, you're committing a crime and you have to go to even though i mean, this is 1984,

george orwell said , it in 1984, george orwell said, it in 1984, you the party made you you know, the party made you deny the evidence your own eyes because this what dictators treat you now. lewis and are you going to be contrarian for the sake of it? but you have read 1984, haven't you? and you are aware that it is a feature of all dystopian not lived it. i was flipped. it 30. it was was flipped. it was 30. it was 27. you've actually been 27. and you've actually been through so you know more through it. so you know more with for you. but with more biography for you. but yes. it is it is a when they yes. no, it is it is a when they said you can't a word but they just said it's a secondary definite. is definite. so what harm is i don't see the harm. dictionaries have always lied. i was have always lied. when i was a kid, i was a kid, we used kid, when i was a kid, we used to for the dirty and there to look for the dirty and there were never dirty words. it were never any dirty words. it but probably had school but you probably had a school dictionary quietly censored those out. well, that. no, because enough to because i'm old enough to remember didn't put remember when they didn't put those in. maybe now they those words in. maybe now they do. we that was our main source of and finding the of fun was going and finding the dirty words. the thing dirty words. but the other thing that and this is the thing that every and this is the thing about you which is makes about you and you which is makes you so that people love you. the truth you're so naive you

truth is you're so naive is you can't believe anything any more not even the dictionaries . the not even the dictionaries. the fact that you hold the dictionary up high as this is the font and i just trust that if you're going to work for diction, you're going to have national standards. you know, what's wrong with that? they do. and said it's a secondary. and they said it's a secondary. just can see. yeah. just the word can see. yeah. yes, in america you go to yes, right. in america you go to the the loo. yes. the can. that's the loo. yes. okay and not everybody calls it the can. but it's in the dictionary . the can. but it's in the dictionary. can meaning. okay so i understand that earlier. does lewis a point there that actually this doesn't really matter. only like a matter. even if only like a handful people using this handful of people using this term in this way, it could still get in there as secondary. get in there as a secondary. that's fine. definitely that's fine. no, definitely matters, this is this is matters, because this is this is what refer this what people refer to. and this has become it becomes the new reality. it becomes the new way of referring to women, even though it is still a breather about times. i still can't about ten times. i still can't work with the actually mean. work out with the actually mean. but big issue is that but that's the big issue is that actually secondary actually lewis secondary definition not it's pretty definition or not it's pretty badly written you would badly written and you would expect people who write badly written and you would exptdictionary people who write badly written and you would exptdictionary aseople who write badly written and you would exptdictionary as ittple who write badly written and you would exptdictionary as it writing) write badly written and you would exptdictionary as it writing and te

the dictionary as it writing and said what they call that said what does they call that a tautology. yeah it's a tautology. yeah it's a tautology. yeah. you well tautology. yeah. you say, well done. he thinks that done. but then he thinks that that's made day, that's actually made his day, that's actually made his day, that a difficult word that he got a difficult word right, that a proper intellectual like, you know, no faux you you faux intellect. no. yeah you you know, the piece the piece of you wrote was beautiful. think. wrote was beautiful. i think. i feel feeling , which is and feel the feeling, which is and i agree with leigh, we've got to watch out for this creep. it's part of creed. yes, exactly. part of the creed. yes, exactly. but the the day, if but at the end of the day, if people using that definition, it should be the dictionary, but they're not. they're not. they are. using are are. they using it? there are people who call what we would say men who have trans transitioned into women as women. okay so they typically use the phrase trans women tend, but they know that's what we do. the young people call them women. well, very well . there women. well, very well. there you have it. let me schafer is far more in touch with the young than either leo. that's a than either me or leo. that's a big revelation for the show, anyway. after the break, on, it's high time we got some more questions our wonderful questions from our wonderful audience. go audience. so please don't go

anywhere

welcome back to the show. now before we get more questions from the audience i just want to take another email. i think this is an important topic. this comes from simon. says, is comes from simon. simon says, is j.k. rowling right to make her sexy centre women sexy views? centre for women only . so you might have heard only. so you might have heard this that the best selling this week that the best selling author, j.k. rowling, has personally a new centre personally funded a new centre for women who have survived sexual. that she sexual. and she's said that she feels that there is an unmet need for scottish women who , need for scottish women who, want women centred and women delivered care at such a vulnerable time . and this news vulnerable time. and this news of course comes amidst concerns about first minister of scotland, sturgeon's scotland, nicola sturgeon's gender reform bill gender recognition reform bill could potentially damage women's rights. so i'm going to go to our resident. so this is a centre that's been opened up in edinburgh and this is obviously j.k. rowling's hometown and

she's there j.k. rowling's hometown and she no there j.k. rowling's hometown and she no rape there j.k. rowling's hometown and she no rape crisis there j.k. rowling's hometown and she no rape crisis centres 1ere j.k. rowling's hometown and she no rape crisis centres fore are no rape crisis centres for women that are for women only anymore in biological terms that that exist . she's right that doesn't exist. she's right about so why and she's got about that. so why and she's got about that. so why and she's got a lot of abuse for opening this this centre. what's going on? yes, had some rape threats yes, she's had some rape threats , i it's you , ironically. i mean, it's you understand that women if, they've been abused by a penis might want a space that's free from penises. yes but to me, just sort of makes sense. it's if you've been in a machete attack, you might not want to go to the machete shop. so i don't really understand why there's a problem with this penis free rape centre . it's rape crisis centre. it's interesting because she's funded it fully, so not a registered charity, which means the government can't step and government can't step in and shut which of course, shut it. which which of course, is . which, of course is making. which, of course they'd to. love they'd love to. they'd love spend dollars shutting spend our tax dollars shutting down a rape crisis centre and this time and, you know, understand, know, transgender women can be victims of violence . you know, that's that's obviously terrible. but there are other centres centres for i can understand i just don't

understand why. we've got this like pyramid of sort of a victimhood of oppression with a sort of transgender or people at the top. but one of the two very obvious theories, they switch around occasionally . yeah, but, around occasionally. yeah, but, but everybody you know, below them, if you're below somebody else, then your feelings don't count. and so women's feelings don't count because , you know, don't count because, you know, some transgender are saying to women it would be my feelings. i mean, it's so weird, like, you have thought that someone a film like j.k. rowling donating, all this money to open up a centre for raped, sexually abused women. could that greeted women. how could that be greeted with other than that's with anything other than that's a thing that you're a really good thing that you're doing death doing that rather than death threats violence . but i threats and violence. but i mean, kind of world are we mean, what kind of world are we living i think you have to living in? i think you have to first of all, you have to i mean, i don't want to say that what that is a bad idea. which is is a bad idea. i actually is it is a bad idea. i actually did for her. of did a benefit for her. one of her charities. did you? yeah called one family, one called one one family, one single, mother. what kind single, single mother. what kind of it was a huge of benefits? it was a huge thing. was biggest thing

thing. was the biggest thing they was in the dominion they did. it was in the dominion theatre, in front of like 1400 people. it was, oh, you're wonderful. one of wonderful. no, it was one of that remember it because that was i remember it because it so unusual. yeah it was so unusual. yeah sometimes your gigs go well, there's i'm and i her there's i'm and i met her she seems like lovely a lovely seems like a lovely a lovely person the time i was, i person and at the time i was, i didn't realise i was helping sow the of my own inability to the seeds of my own inability to see my own children . and that's see my own children. and that's what was happening . yeah. what was happening. yeah. because that's what was, that was her whole thing her was her whole thing was her thing was sowing this sort thing was about sowing this sort of thing that men are bad, that men are bad. i think she thinks man about so she does. man about it. so she does. i think she thinks men are think she thinks that men are bad single mothers are bad and single mothers are better married. think better than married. i think she's up a crisis she's just setting up a crisis centre. well, there this theory. well, you think something you would think that? i would think there's an ulterior motive for all of these things. i'm not saying she this goodness saying she she this goodness sake, lewis there. it's a good thing lewis has got a point because they won't let hammond in frock . why they won't. and in a frock. why they won't. and rightly not. okay let's get some questions from audience. was questions from our audience. was that andrew? no.

that too much, andrew? no. i mean, you were always too mean, when you were always too much, that's just your innate charm. next is from charm. our next question is from heather. i heather. where is heather? i have is greta have a question. is greta thunberg right to back the edinburgh universe of film protesters. yes although question book was all about climate and that kind of thing. but recently the edinburgh university, edinburgh again, we'll about this we'll come to you about this because students because this a group of students who blocked a screening and this was the edinburgh academic for academic freedom . we're showing academic freedom. we're showing this film called adult human female, which is being criticised by the university pride society and i've seen the footage of this. there are people outside blocking people's entrance to the film. i would and now greta thunberg is coming and now greta thunberg is coming and supported censorship and supported the censorship this so there's few this film. yeah so there's few things here i have thought firstly if don't want to see firstly if you don't want to see a just don't go. yeah and a film just don't go. yeah and then problem solved, isn't then the problem solved, isn't it. don't to worry it. and you don't have to worry about people seeing the about other people seeing the film. their own film. they can make their own choices right. now you've choices right. and now you've got activist saying, got a climate activist saying, i like censoring this like that you're censoring this film. on? what's film. what's going on? what's interesting is that? she's sort of making a activism, this sort

of making a activism, this sort of so, you know, of partisan issue. so, you know, the and these people the left and all these people that this kind of stuff the left and all these people tha'on this kind of stuff the left and all these people tha'on this this kind of stuff the left and all these people tha'on this side. kind of stuff the left and all these people tha'on this side. sotd of stuff the left and all these people tha'on this side. so it'sf stuff the left and all these people tha'on this side. so it's sort ff are on this side. so it's sort of alienating. it's alienating for who might be on the for people who might be on the right might agree that, you know climate a thing . climate change is a bad thing. so they'll like, well, i both so they'll be like, well, i both i'm gender critical so no i can support climate i don't really understand she's she's understand what she's what she's done. support done. you're expected to support all courses, right? so all sorts of courses, right? so the way it works is that if you support, you if are support, you know, if you are against gender critical feminism, be for feminism, you've got to be for greta and greta thunberg and her environmental other environmental campaign and other as then of the as well. but then a lot of the lot of the stuff behind sort of gender critical. well, you know, people are pushing back against ideology fact based on ideology is the fact is based on science, know, the biology science, you know, the biology says chromosomes that, you says the chromosomes that, you know, females exist. know, males and females exist. yes. and there are biological differences. look a penis. look a vagina there are these measurable things you can measure. i mean, you might not need big a ruler, but you need that big a ruler, but you can with things is , you know, can with things is, you know, for greta thunberg to come in and be like, oh, no, no biology , doesn't exist. she's , she doesn't exist. she's denying science. and then the

whole climate , things like whole climate, things like follow science. that's follow the science. that's climate change is a load of nonsense well, that's nonsense. well, no, that's a very big it's very that was a very big it's very that was a very good point up until the end lewis said what about what would you censorship mean you about censorship i mean this idea if if you're so idea that if you if you're so upset about film offended upset about film so offended about other people about film blocking other people from do you think from seeing it, do you think that's the answer. no, obviously not. is this is all of not. and this is this is all of these demonstration have these demonstration things have to thing in this to do with one thing in this country the police don't act country is the police don't act as just said, you know as if they just said, you know what, we're going to act what, we're just going to act and not going to we're not and we're not going to we're not going to you to stop going to allow you to stop public. you the police public. so you think the police should intervened and should have intervened and literally those literally pulled those protesters as they protesters away as quick as they were yeah, of were looking? and yeah, of course, that blocking an interest inside their interest of their inside their trespassing. but you know the police today. to police don't act today. to be fair, was the scottish fair, that was the scottish police and they were with it. i mean, i suppose they would support the it was at the support the press. it was at the top a flight of steps and top of a flight of steps and they're far to so they're all too far to go. so i mean, the protesters look pretty beefy. i know all beefy. mean i know they're all genuine real women, allegedly, but of them but you know, one of them myself. woof, which myself. robyn woof, which is

apparently the you make apparently the noise you make when a walk past but when you see a walk past but yeah she was of there like full on like adam's desperate on like adam's apple desperate done know, i'm done jaw and you know, i'm a woman i'm a woman who loses babies. whoa, this is this story is actually interesting is actually more interesting than because it than you think it is because it has nothing to politics. has nothing to do with politics. it has do with the fact that it has to do with the fact that greta thunberg sent, the message that she sent to a guy was three hearts. that's what she said in the tweet. in the tweet, three hearts. we don't know what that three hearts was. it could have just been, you know, hey, just been, hey, you know, hey, rogen just been, hey, you know, hey, roger. remember every roger. i remember every weekend that at that we spent together at climate. you think. climate. okay, so you think. well people have taken well well, people have taken those hearts. is those three hearts. is endorsement of the protest. and it that she she's it wasn't that that is she she's she's up with being like she's fed up with being like a little girl wants to get get little girl she wants to get get randl little girl she wants to get get randi. like was one of randi. she looks like was one of the people who's put on the original people who's put on puberty blockers. yeah okay. i would would blame veganism. do would i would blame veganism. do you blame veganism everything, louise? we're going to on. louise? we're going to move on. that's a question from where is rick? rick, i should there rick? hello rick, i should there be so many public workers focussed on diverse city issues. yeah. so i, i couldn't believe

this. this week i saw this report and this is conservative way forward and it says that almost 8000 public sector workers concentrate on the quality diversity initiatives. but here's the kicker it also found that 427 million people owns is being spent on these roles right now. leo, you've spoken a number of times about diversity and inclusion and the industry that surrounds it. yeah, that's much more than i assumed it would ever be. that's assumed it would ever be. that's a huge amount of and that's an undercount. so i that's we're looking at like, you know, half a billion pounds in direct spending just on these these salaried we're not salaried roles. yeah. we're not looking at the grants all looking at the grants and all that stuff in the that kind of stuff in the peripheral charities that come in training. we're in and provide training. we're losing million at least losing a million hands, at least a a year, and the a million days a year, and the pubuc a million days a year, and the public sector to training and it's nonsense training. it's all nonsense training. it's all, own all, you know, treating our own take risk in that is your take the risk in that is your intersectional trans gender feminist wherever is it none of it is this stuff you go along, get a free sandwich, you sit there, you think now i've got to do more work tomorrow. so it's a

drain on the it's drain is a drain on the it's sort of a fishing, not a drain for the aid of people who are keen to, sort of run the workshops. they're making a mint, create sort mint, doing the create this sort of mafia. like stonewall. of mafia. it's like stonewall. they and they like, they go in and they say like, listen, if don't if you listen, if you don't if you don't pay us this, then don't pay us to do this, then you're not taking the right boxes equality boxes and your equality diversity inclusion. diversity and inclusion. and obviously of. it's for obviously none of. it's for genuine inclusion. there are still of populace still swathes of the populace nafion still swathes of the populace nation are looked down nation that are are looked down on discriminated against. nation that are are looked down on they'reriminated against. nation that are are looked down on they'reriminat

for that kind of training and society, you know society, do you think you know what, people don't do what, most people don't do any work whatsoever. what's the work whatsoever. so what's the 8000 people in the government do? we don't any work. do? we don't do any work. i mean, that's quite as mean, that's quite a lot as well. that doesn't matter. that's the bucket that that's a drop in the bucket that the government you the government does. and you know, something about occasionally government occasionally about government employees. they're better off when work. the when they don't do any work. the less thing is, i mean, it less i the thing is, i mean, it is true that when you go to training sessions, to training sessions, i used to work call centre. we use work for a call centre. we use go to these training sessions and would literally be and you would just literally be passing time and, just passing the time and, just getting it. you getting through it. and you know, had friends of know, i've had friends of mine who teachers who doing who are teachers who were doing unconscious and all unconscious bias. yeah. and all of says, of the research says, it definitely nothing. i definitely does nothing. i mean like we know that it doesn't it achieves literally. right. they're going to complain they're not going to complain because well, because they're like, well, we get we just get to get a day off, we just get to sit there and nothing. so, sit there and do nothing. so, yes, all complicit. do you yes, we're all complicit. do you know i'd to have a know what? i'd like to have a job i actually have to go job where i actually have to go on that's a website. on something that's a website. it be you. then it would be good for you. then you socialise and you can you could socialise and you can learn social skills. you know what would have loved it? it sounds much fun. the stick sounds like much fun. the stick says have a sandwich. i'm

says i have a sandwich. i'm thinking, a great place. thinking, what a great place. yeah, unconscious bias yeah, but the unconscious bias stuff, that probing in stuff, i mean that probing in your there saying your mind and there of saying that have these evil it's that you have these evil it's quite and it's quite funny. yeah and it's called training because called bias training because your for of it your unconscious for most of it your unconscious for most of it you are. we're going to for you are. we're going to go for another question from another question came from twitter. one's from kate twitter. this one's from kate and said did an mp go too and kate said did an mp go too far comparing housing far by comparing housing migrants to a migrants at a holiday camp to a concentration so this was concentration camp? so this was labour lewis and he labour mp clive lewis and he made comparison hasn't made this this comparison hasn't gone no, hasn't. gone down well. no, it hasn't. but mean, been to but i mean, i've been to butlins. he's got a point, you know, the machine gun towers there . they're step too far there. they're a step too far and this is a really crass point . and he tried to sort of he tried double down and justify it by saying , well, when have by saying, well, when you have people in a sort of camp, they're not in a camp. they're in you know, structures, in actual, you know, structures, buildings. concentrated buildings. they're concentrated in area. well, to in one area. well, to concentrate is in companies like. no, not no no. it's like. no, that's not no no. it's i that's like to i mean that's like trying to fudge the aftermath. i fudge it in the aftermath. i mean, absolutely. klay when you use the phrase concentration camp, of images get camp, what kind of images get evoked? talking evoked? yeah, you're talking about evoked? yeah, you're talking abotknow, belsen and all that you know, belsen and all that kind of. but this is it's

inappropriate, right? is it? surely inappropriate. surely it's inappropriate. there is that is not because a jew. is that why you're not? no, that's not why. but don't you you do understand why people sensitive. i embarrassing. i think it's embarrassing. i think is totally think i think it is totally inappropriate just inappropriate because. it just reminds everybody else what horrible have in horrible conditions we have in england. normal people have england. normal people have england. that giving england. the idea that giving immigrants constantly in camps, england. the idea that giving immigsoundstnstantly in camps, england. the idea that giving immigsounds betterly in camps, england. the idea that giving immigsounds better than camps, england. the idea that giving immigsounds better than the ps, which sounds better than the sense that people are, they're not supposed i as not supposed nice. i mean, as leo says, there are buildings are hotels and are sometimes it's hotels and that i'm that kind of thing. and i'm against that, know. yeah, against that, you know. yeah, people be but people do need to be housed, but the idea that i mean, to evoke that kind of thing it's suggestive of a kind of suggestive of there's a kind of endemic bias this endemic racial bias that this knowledge persecutes people knowledge that persecutes people but trying to house them but they're trying to house them and it by using and help them know it by using that term but that guy just shows that you know where he stands that he wants these people to get the best when the fact is they've smuggled their way into the country. well what has he maybe just missed misspoken? sort of showed his hand a bit too much, and maybe it's become overly politicised. this thing is moving in circles. we're that. it

we're talking like that. it doesn't up because doesn't get pulled up because everybody with them. this everybody agrees with them. this is the thing about some politicians. just politicians. sometimes they just i and that i think they forget and that filter goes, you know, like when. rayner all when. angela rayner said all tory were is that tory voters were scum. is that what you said. yeah. you what you said. yeah. and you could you know but she could tell i you know but she doubled as well. yeah. and doubled down as well. yeah. and then so then apologised eventually so yeah. but the other yeah. you know, but the other side of it is that the side that i want to out is that the i want to point out is that the fact that they, they, they, they do it's horrible do think that it's horrible living back okay. but living conditions back okay. but it's quite same as it's not quite the same as horrible living conditions then in maybe it is, in their mind is maybe it is, maybe maybe they think my maybe it is, maybe they think my god, rather be. it at god, i'd rather be. it at auschwitz than in i, i doubt you know she then butlin's. yeah you know she then butlin's. yeah you know a british food is fresh food. it's horrible food we've got to move now is thinking she's got to move on i'm afraid i listen to you all day for the audience i next question is from john with john. hi john is. it cruel to kick delivery robots . cruel to kick delivery robots. yeah so this a funny story i thought the construction workers being the subject of online vitriol . oh, there he is. he got

vitriol. oh, there he is. he got caught kicking a food delivery robot, and the video showed , the robot, and the video showed, the robot, and the video showed, the robot penny got stuck in the snowy conditions. so he sort of put the boot to try and get it to move along. and i don't cruelty to robots is i don't think an issue is it think that's an issue is it particularly mean i'm worried about them taking over any by the the cruelty the robots all the more cruelty to robots far as i could see, to robots as far as i could see, the better. know, i upset the better. you know, i upset when saw because i thought when i saw it because i thought to another small white to myself, another small white guy persecuted while guy who's being persecuted while there . so, i mean, come there we saw. so, i mean, come on, this a this this this is on, this is a this this this is just. well, we can't really look like he was just helping push the robot out of an icy patch. i think it was a bit frustration that was, you can't tell. and you know, something ? it's just you know, something? it's just horrible that they have these things going around. this is basically lee saying, you know, your is next. i know. but. yourjob is next. i know. but. oh, absolutely. yeah, think oh, absolutely. yeah, i think it's going to it's going to boost the and they're boost the economy and they're saying, know, we to saying, you know, we need to have this massive have all this like massive because there are so many roles to fill. we've got little robots to fill. we've got little robots to i think it's to do. no, i think it's absolutely terrifying,

especially get especially when they get artificial intelligence then especially when they get artifsee. intelligence then especially when they get artifsee. intelligthem then especially when they get artifsee. intelligthem wouldzn especially when they get artifsee. intelligthem would be a you see kicking them would be a human at that point human rights issue at that point when sentient. but we when they're sentient. but we don't want that anyway. we've we've actually, we've got actually, unfortunately, go for a break now. but after the break on free speech lee, him, a speech nation lee, just him, a professor will be professor at rutgers, will be here us he was denounced here to tell us he was denounced as a by over a thousand as a racist by over a thousand academics quotation academics for using quotation from musical fiddler from the famous musical fiddler on see in a minute.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation lee. just say i'm a distinguished professor, the department of psychology at rutgers university, new jersey, has found itself denounced as a racist , simply for has found itself denounced as a racist, simply for using a quotation . the musical fiddler quotation. the musical fiddler on the roof just began an academic paper by using the quotation, of course, that was the time he sold him a horse and delivered a mule . from the song delivered a mule. from the song

tradition . but the reference did tradition. but the reference did not find favour with academics. i'm joined now from new jersey by lee. good evening, lee. thanks for joining by lee. good evening, lee. thanks forjoining us and good evening, andrew. thank you for having me . so why don't we start having me. so why don't we start at the beginning? had written this article. perhaps you could give us some sense of what the article was about . the article article was about. the article was essentially a critique of the way in which diversity rhetoric is used in academia . rhetoric is used in academia. and the core idea that it's used disingenuous . so diversity kind disingenuous. so diversity kind of has come to mean two different things. the conventional meaning is like lots of different things. diversity in fact, my article was titled the diversity of diversity because the word can mean two different things. most people , i think, think diversity people, i think, think diversity means lots of different things. there's environmental diversity, bio species diversity , lots of bio species diversity, lots of different species . right. it's

different species. right. it's just lots of different things. okay, but but in progressive circles in general and academia in particular, there's a very narrow form of diversity which is history related to providing benefits to groups the far left deems worthy of receiving special benefits . and the main special benefits. and the main of the paper was to press academia, to be honest about its use of its term, because often what it's doing is selling to the world diversity , the broad the world diversity, the broad sense and delivering it in the extremely narrow , politicised extremely narrow, politicised sense. i mean, this is a common feature, isn't it, of critical social justice activists that they use language in such a slippery way it can have more than one meaning and they sort of rely on the good nature of their audience to interpret it one when actually one way when actually they're kind smuggling other kind of smuggling in other discourses. right. right. i mean, that's exactly right. and that's what's the context was a

disc version of a prior paper. and the prior paper did exactly that. right. so your critics criticising this other paper and in order to do so, to make your point, you invoke the song from fiddler on the roof . point, you invoke the song from fiddler on the roof. in particular, this lyric . what particular, this lyric. what what were you trying to say by quote? by quoting this lyric? well that academia was metaphor speaking when it prima says diversity . people hear it as diversity. people hear it as diversity. people hear it as diversity in the broadest sense. so it's promising a horse , but so it's promising a horse, but delivering a musical, it's this pared down, narrow, politicised, progressive form business. and then why do people find that offensive ? i don't think anyone offensive? i don't think anyone it offensive at all until it was denounced by a black stanford professor as drawing on 19th century racist . so apparently it

century racist. so apparently it in, you know, through the mid century there was this a association of american blacks who were primarily agrarian and agricultural, rural and annuals. you know so mules were a common feature on the farm. black people were common the agrarian south. and so there there is . south. and so there there is. good reason to believe that you know through about 1950 there were some in some people's minds between black people and mules and be clear. so the author of the piece that you were criticised that was a black author, is that right. and then they've said that by quoting this line, selling a horse and delivering you're delivering a mule, you're invoking now obsolete. from invoking this now obsolete. from what i can gather , a racist what i can gather, a racist association . surely you couldn't association. surely you couldn't seriously believe that that's such an uncharitable

interpretation of what you're doing. and obviously not true, right? i support. it's more than i mean , paper and this is i mean, paper and this is a quote he claimed that was drawing and expert this in parallel between people and mules. that's the quote unbelievable. i mean, so what happened? that's so. so you then had academics coming in force against you. can you talk a bit about that that ? well, it was about that that? well, it was the whole picture was a little more complicated because there were i mean, that's true . but were i mean, that's true. but but in addition to being true, that's not the whole story. the there were a series of papers that were accepted for publication discussing original article and. there are allegations that the editor mishandled that process . and i mishandled that process. and i sort of got caught up in that. my sort of got caught up in that. my paper kind of got caught up in that . and so there was an in that. and so there was an open very quickly went after the denunciation by the target

author stephen roberts . author stephen roberts. academics organised on social media, essentially an academic outrage mob formed within hours , within a day there was an onune , within a day there was an online open petition calling for the editor to be fired, denouncing all of us as racists , calling for all of our accepted papers to be retracted . and for roberts denunciations be published instead. so what i find astonishing about that is there is absolutely no way that any of those academics believe what they are saying . and we what they are saying. and we know that they don't it know that they don't believe it because to be an because would have to be an infant actually make infant to actually make that connection. going on? connection. so what's going on? this is this is political expediency, right? that's all it is opportunism . i don't is. just opportunism. i don't i think many of them believe it actually, really. so yes, i

think academia , at which the think academia, at which the american academy has gone very very far left . and i think there very far left. and i think there is an element of opportunism . is an element of opportunism. there's an element of expediency . there's an element of a power grab. but i in general, listen and i studied political psychology , radicalisation . psychology, radicalisation. people usually eat not always, but they usually believe what is obvious to other as their own propaganda . so in other words, propaganda. so in other words, they are so accustomed to detecting racism and racist power structures that they really have started to see it in obviously innocuous places. yes, i think that is correct, actually. yes does that makes it very hard, doesn't it? because isn't the upshot of this that if you want want to criticise an academic or a point that an has made and if an academic to be black or happens to be gay or whatever, then you you better not criticise him . that's seems

not criticise him. that's seems to be the current of academia . to be the current of academia. so what do we do about that? if academia has become so obsessed with group identity that can't have a discussion about what is true and what is false anymore? without bringing that into? where that leave the where does that leave the academy ? i think it mostly academy? i think it mostly leaves the academy as , at least leaves the academy as, at least on political issues . the quasi on political issues. the quasi scientific wing of far left parties. i think that's where it leaves academia. the issue of what to do. it is actually a complicated issue and i'm not sure ideas have been percolating . you know, i think there has been some movement in the uk. to include strength in protections for academic freedom and punishments for universities

that violate academic freedom . that violate academic freedom. we don't yet have that here in the us. people are advocating it and who knows what may , you know and who knows what may, you know how it's going to evolve . the how it's going to evolve. the problem here, though i think , is problem here, though i think, is that the democrats are unlikely to embrace anything like that. and the republicans have a history of sort of excessive and backlash when they do do things like that. so, for example , the like that. so, for example, the state of florida is governed by republicans . the governor is republicans. the governor is republicans. the governor is republican , the state republican, the state legislature is republican. they recently the stop woke act. what among the things that the stop woke act does is all but eliminate tenure protections. now you know, if you say academia as like the enemy, then maybe what you want to do is just like as much damage to academia as possible. but if what you want to do is academic

freedom, the last thing you want to do is revoke tenure protections. i think it's a really misguided response. well, it doesn't like either side of the political aisle are going to do anything to improve but do anything to improve this. but it's a fascinating story. lee, i really on really appreciate you coming on to about it . yeah, thank to talk about it. yeah, thank you. thanks for having me. so after the break on free speech nafion after the break on free speech nation , jeremy clarkson comes nation, jeremy clarkson comes under fire. gingerbread men go nonbinary and three camels escaping. nativity after outsmarting the wise men. it's almost time for social sensation and see you in just one minute.

welcome back to so it's time for social sensations. this is the part of the show which we devote to the wild world of social media. so we're going to start with the good old fashioned twitter storm of this one was

prompted by jeremy and comments he made about meghan markle. this in the sun newspaper, this was in the sun newspaper, so clarkson said he hated the duchess of sussex on a cellular level and dreams of the day. she is, quote, paraded naked through the of every town in the streets of every town in britain while crowds throw lumps of at. he also claimed of excrement at. he also claimed that every everyone who's my age thinks the same way. i should also add, he also says they should chant shame . what he's should chant shame. what he's doing here, of course. leo is invoking game of thrones . invoking game of thrones. there's a very famous scene in game thrones miscellany who game of thrones miscellany who is naked through the is paraded naked through the streets people streets while people are throwing excrement and shouting shame, . it's a of shame, repeating. it's a game of thrones reference. so don't know. apparently people have. carol instance, carol vorderman, for instance, tweeted, not on any tweeted, saying not on any level, in circumstances . is level, in any circumstances. is it okay to write this stuff about anyone, and no, no, about anyone, man? and no, no, no. absolutely think no. we absolutely do not think the and so people and even the same. and so people and even clarkson's daughters condemn this people have this is this to people have said this is inciting violence, he's not. inciting violence, but he's not. i think he's drawing on this game of thrones, employing hyperbole known as a comical

writer, is employing hype to make a point. i don't think anybody read that much like oh my god , i need to do this now. my god, i need to do this now. we to make naked through the through streets and in short and through streets and in short and through literal excrement. and it's not going to happen, is it? there's no it's not going to happen. he's he's he's been way over and was really over the top and was really nice. i understand. carol vorderman criticising she's vorderman criticising him. she's taking her busy taking time out of her, her busy schedule, flogging terrible loins to criticise loins to idiots to criticise them. but john bishop, a comedian, has come out and criticised . yeah, john bishop criticised. yeah, john bishop said, this this is said, oh, this is this is terrible. john bishop has made jokes about killing his wife with made jokes with a spoon. he's made jokes about the eating his wife and keeping head in the fridge. keeping her head in the fridge. and he's oh, but and then he's like, oh, but this, inciting violence. this, this is inciting violence. this little is i didn't know thatis this little is i didn't know that is jon bishop's argument that is jon bishop's argument that professional that because he's a professional comedian, will know that comedian, people will know that the with the spoon the killing wife with the spoon thing a joke. but clarkson thing is a joke. but clarkson isn't will isn't a comedian, so people will assume wants us to assume he actually wants us to do this. is that the idea that that must thing? i guess that must be the thing? i guess because jon bishop said on stage, what jeremy stage, what is what is jeremy

clarkson who ever clarkson wrote it. who ever heard something funny being heard of something funny being wrought know wrought in britain? don't know if people took that. you say on stage, literally, you arrested, you you you would be in prison. you wouldn't be right now. no wouldn't be here right now. no but reason i get away with but the reason i get away with it people like me and they it is people like me and they don't jeremy clarkson. don't like jeremy clarkson. i think that's that's the issue is they don't they don't like him. his persona is not likeable. he's not just he's going to like him. i like him. you are one person. just more he's got more fans and just what but okay you might have a point that actually the reason why are so the reason why people are so angry because it's clarkson angry is because it's clarkson that's done it. yeah i think most british people do not like meghan it's nothing meghan markle. it's nothing personal against her. she's just horrible . so when i heard that, horrible. so when i heard that, i thought, what is the big deal? she is she is horrible. she's destroy him. yeah. i mean, i know woman said paraded through the street. i mean, it doesn't even need to be said, does it? well would i would pay to see the but let's move on now we've got this from a bakery in blackpool which has caused a stir on the internet for

labelling their biscuits as non—binary gingerbread people. and this is a post on facebook said of thousand her shares and 7000 comments then debating 7000 comments then are debating the become like a the biscuit. it's become like a big there's biscuit there big thing there's biscuit there it is the cottage bakery and the owner the cottage bakery, owner of the cottage bakery, paul done as a bit paul says it was done as a bit of a laugh because of people's comments first place. comments in the first place. it wasn't to politically wasn't done to be politically correct and people have correct and some people have thankfully it as a joke. thankfully taken it as a joke. so, know, you, the so, you know, mind you, the co—op remember years co—op i remember a few years ago, the introduced a non ago, the co—op introduced a non or gender gingerbread biscuit. yeah. so actually there is a precedent this. i know that precedent for this. i know that because i have to read this stuff all the it's in my stuff all the time, it's in my head. you know, they weren't head. and you know, they weren't they yeah, they weren't trolling. yeah, i mean you think of this guy. mean what you think of this guy. i mean this this is clearly just mocking the it is the mocking the whole it is the whole it but yeah the whole idea of it but yeah the co—op doing it for real is yeah thatis co—op doing it for real is yeah that is more is more worrying because i mean the biscuits don't have a gender anyway. they don't have a gender anyway. they do see as a ginger do they we see as a ginger gingerbread not really gingerbread man it's not really a man or a, it doesn't have chromosomes just a it's not anatomically and i think and i think the bigger picture is that

it incites against ginger people that very true. well if we're going to go down that road. yeah with clarkson and that yeah this is bread headed people might take offence and also would a gingerbread identifies gingerbread man that identifies as a wedding cake. yeah so this is a minefield. i didn't realise . and we're just going to head to australia our to brisbane, australia for our final sensation. have final sensation. let's have a look at this . one now. these are look at this. one now. these are pictures from channel news after three rogue camels escaped a live re—enactment , nativity . the live re—enactment, nativity. the animal has managed to make their grand escape when ringleader cyrus open the gate, allowing them to roam free on the streets of brisbane . it is not very of brisbane. it is not very often these are just a bunch of camels roaming down the street. oh, that's nice. what do they call rewilding yeah, yeah. call it? rewilding yeah, yeah. they nature returning they call that nature returning to. i mean, yeah he's got to. yeah, i mean, yeah he's got the hump . is to. yeah, i mean, yeah he's got the hump. is it to. yeah, i mean, yeah he's got the hump . is it not the case the hump. is it not the case that camels are to australia . that camels are to australia. not native but they were taken. there are no they live in the wild. there's a lot of wild

camel. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. i really thoughts on camels louis. well i never ever thought on, on portraits using the put whatever is the portrait mode for use in filming the filming so you're worried that a camel camels worried that for a camel camels in landscape lane just that in landscape lane said just that that's your take on this they should have filmed in a should have filmed it in a different way. more the different way. the more the really it does. really bothers me. it does. it bothers now that you bothers me too. now that you mention it bothers too. mention it, it bothers me too. so got time, i think so we have got time, i think just for a couple of, um, filter dilemmas. thanks for sending them our first came from them in. our first one came from kevin stockport and kevin has kevin in stockport and kevin has said mistakenly which said i mistakenly a letter which was my neighbour i'm was meant for my neighbour i'm a bit skint right and it felt bit skint right now and it felt like it had in it turns like it had money in it turns out was a court summons for out it was a court summons for an unpaid fine. i really my neighbours don't want them neighbours and don't want them to get done but i can't tell them about it without them knowing. petty thief. what knowing. i'm a petty thief. what should ? i mean. yes. so should i do? i mean. yes. so clearly he shouldn't have opened it. that done, he's it. but now that he's done, he's kind he's made his kind of got it. he's made his badge mean, surely he badge online. i mean, surely he can repackage it new can just repackage it in a new envelope and post it to them. is it could that simple?

it could it be that simple? i think probably is. any thoughts on this one? how much? just like throw on the ground in front throw it on the ground in front of and hope they see of their house and hope they see it, that or don't make it, maybe do that or don't make friends neighbours. friends with your neighbours. you about being you know, just pray about being enemy neighbours. that'd enemy of your neighbours. that'd be. thank you so much for be. but thank you so much for sending i'm going to get sending those. i'm going to get some dilemmas some more unfiltered dilemmas next promise. and thank next week, i promise. and thank you for joining next week, i promise. and thank you forjoining us next week, i promise. and thank you for joining us for free speech was speech nation tonight. this was the by greta the week course by greta thunberg seemingly censorship. jeremy social jeremy clarkson united social media and saying jeremy clarkson united social medican't and saying jeremy clarkson united social medican't be and saying jeremy clarkson united social medican't be lesbians and saying jeremy clarkson united social medican't be lesbians apparently| men can't be lesbians apparently became possibly to became you could possibly go to prison for thanks to prison for thanks so much to my panel and leo panel libby schafer and leo kearse all my guests this kearse and to all my guests this evening. you want to join evening. and if you want to join us in the be part of this us live in the be part of this audience, you can do that just go to ww sro audiences .com we'll week. looking we'll see you next week. looking ahead tomorrow's weather and ahead to tomorrow's weather and the is looking rather grey the uk is looking rather grey and wet to start the week. let's take a look at the. milder air will be in place across the whole country monday morning. it will be a cloudy start across scotland with outbreaks of rain at times and strong blustery winds . at times and strong blustery winds. northern ireland have a

cloudy and breezy start the day with some outbreaks of rain and drizzle at times. it will feel much milder than a fait. drizzle at times. it will feel much milder than a fait . thick much milder than a fait. thick layers of cloud will bring some hill fog across parts of northern england, particularly across the pennines. it will be mild and windy with drizzly outbreaks . fog also cover the outbreaks. fog also cover the hills in wales. some misty and foggy condition . at first it foggy condition. at first it will be a mild start to the day with temperatures in double. they'll grey skies across the midlands on monday morning. the strong southerly wind will bring a mild start to the day for frosty conditions will be gone across east anglia t replaced with cloudy skies and a mild southerly that could be the hotspot of rain early on. outbreaks of rain will be heaviest across southern counties england where a yellow rain warning is in force throughout the day . the milder throughout the day. the milder weather will stay with us through monday. it will be a

windy day for all with outbreaks of rain or at times. and that's how the weather shaping up dunng how the weather shaping up during tomorrow morning morning .

we welcome to gloria meets three former cabinet ministers all in this evening's show. first up, it's wendy morton. she was chief whip on the listeriosis brief premiership . you know, when you premiership. you know, when you get told that people call you wendy rather than wendy morton is still quite hurtful. coming up . conservative mp for 30 years up. conservative mp for 30 years the former cabinet minister liam fox . she lasted 44 days. liz fox. she lasted 44 days. liz truss will also have to be competent. you also have to be right and. there really is only one. jacob rees—mogg when i

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