right at 6 pm. that means it's time for dewbs& c0. right at 6 pm. that means it's time for dewbs& co. with me, emily carver. so coming up after labour made the rather bizarre claim that not being able to pay your energy bills is an example of structural racism. it time of structural racism. is it time we the labour party we gave the labour party a little bit more scrutiny as they gear up push for power? gear up for a push for power? and as two nhs hospitals band the majority of their visitors and instruct patients to wear masks on their wards. and instruct patients to wear masks on their wards . are we masks on their wards. are we being back into covid being nudged back into covid restrictions and as chaos mounts

from the charging point to the road tax for electric cars already running out of steam . already running out of steam. all of that to come on dewbs& co this evening and i'll be introducing my stellar panel in just one moment. but first, let's the news let's get the latest news headunes. let's get the latest news headlines . emily, thank you. i'm headlines. emily, thank you. i'm tatiana sanchez in the gb newsroom. the family of elle edwards , who was killed in edwards, who was killed in merseyside have paid tribute to that most beautiful bright star. the 26 year old was shot at the lighthouse inn on christmas eve while celebrating with family and friends. police are urging anyone with information to come forward. a 30 year old man from tranmere arrested on suspicion of the murder has been recalled to prison . a 19 year old woman to prison. a 19 year old woman from rock ferry has been bailed and a 31 year old man remains in custody. sitting alongside his father , tim edwards, merseyside father, tim edwards, merseyside police read out the family

statement she had this way about her. but as soon as he met her, her. but as soon as he met her, he instantly fell in love with her and he won that new and met our new house special. she was her life was infectious . anyone her life was infectious. anyone who has a watch around her had a good time . she loved life and good time. she loved life and had so many amazing plans for the future. she was only just getting started . west midlands getting started. west midlands police has given more to have been given more time to question. two men arrested on suspicion of the murder of a 23 year old man on boxing day. non—league football player cody fisher died following a knife attack at the crown nightclub in birmingham. the venue has since had its licence suspended , with had its licence suspended, with police saying that being serious management failings. another suspect also remains in custody . tributes continue to flood in

for dame vivienne westwood, who died yesterday at the age of 81. singer boy george describing her as the undisputed queen of british fashion. tributes are also being left outside of her home in south london. dame vivienne was synonymous with 19705 vivienne was synonymous with 1970s punk rock dressing bands such as the pistols, celebrities , politicians and royalty . her , politicians and royalty. her representatives say she died peacefully surrounded by her family . while brazil has begun family. while brazil has begun three days of national mourning in honour of football legend pele , who died yesterday at the pele, who died yesterday at the age of 82. pele had colon cancer and died in hospital. widely regarded as the greatest footballer ever , he is the only footballer ever, he is the only man to win the world cup three times as a player. on monday morning, pele's body will be moved to the urbano. caldeira stadium of his former club santos, where the public will be able to pay their respects . a able to pay their respects. a procession through the streets

of sao paolo on tuesday will be followed by a private family burial. former england goalkeeper peter shilton has paid tribute as a gentleman and wherever he went he left a big impression , you know. and i mean impression, you know. and i mean , fans just adored him, you know , as i say, never had to wait in israel and, you know, to win three world cups was was , you three world cups was was, you know, incredible . for romanian know, incredible. for romanian prosecutors have asked for a 30 day extension to the arrest of onune day extension to the arrest of online influencer andrew tate , online influencer andrew tate, who's been detained on suspicion of human trafficking and rape . of human trafficking and rape. the former reality tv star who was detained alongside his brother tristan, had his house raided in the capital, bucharest. the tate brothers have been under criminal investigation since april. they've declined to comment, but their lawyer has confirmed their detention . while they were detention. while they were nearly 25,000 wildfires this

summer for time's last year figure and the highest in at least a decade . firefighters least a decade. firefighters tackled more than 50 wildfires a day at the peak of the heat waves between june and august, when temperatures reached as high as 40 degrees. earlier this week, the met office said 2022 was the uk's warmest year on record, with above average temperatures every month apart from december . tv online temperatures every month apart from december. tv online and 80 plus radio. this is gb news. now it's back to dewbs & co with . emily thank you, tatiana . so i've been thank you, tatiana. so i've been thinking recently that we've been going a little bit soft on the labour party here at gb news. perhaps it's hardly surprising , given the state of surprising, given the state of the country that there's been a lot of government bashing . but lot of government bashing. but with the polls giving labour such a massive reckon

such a massive lead, i reckon they more they need a little more scrutiny, don't you? so i want to kick off the show with something that you may have missed this week. anneliese dodds, the shadow women and equalities tweeted equalities minister, tweeted something equalities minister, tweeted someth offensive in my view. frankly offensive in my view. that gives us a little bit of insight into how front and centre identity politics and frankly, baiting could be frankly, race baiting could be if labour get their hands on power. ms. dodds gave a couple of statistics on how black families are apparently five times more likely to be behind on their energy bills than white families , and four times more families, and four times more likely to be behind on their rent or mortgage . underneath, rent or mortgage. underneath, she wrote , labour will address she wrote, labour will address racial inequality in government, including with a new race equality act . so apparently, equality act. so apparently, according to analysts , the according to analysts, the reason black families are falling behind on bills is because of structural racism . by because of structural racism. by that logic is the fact white working class boys are performing relatively badly at school because of structured structural racism against them. to and why are you more likely to earn more if you happen to be

of chinese or indian heritage ? of chinese or indian heritage? it's all a bit confusing, but it seems labour thinks any disparity among groups must be due to racism . rather than the due to racism. rather than the many, many other factors that come into play . then there's the come into play. then there's the fact we already have an equality act that is meant to protect against racial discrimination . i against racial discrimination. i worry that a return to labour will mean more hyper racialized identity politics, and it is particularly condescending. tweet is nothing more than a cynical attempt to exploit racial grievances. let me know what you think on that one. it does remind me a bit of jeremy corbyn's ridiculously patronising assertion that only labour can be trusted to unlock asian and minority ethnic people. as if you can lump them all into one category anyway . all into one category anyway. also last night i asked whether we should bring back mandatory covid testing for travellers coming from china. covid testing for travellers coming from china . you were very coming from china. you were very much divided in the inbox, although i must admit it seemed most disagreed with me. most of you disagreed with me. i argued that the government shouldn't give into the pressure to be seen to and not be

to be seen to act and not be swept up in a panic all over again, and avoid bringing in these rules. now, it's these types of rules. now, it's been reported that number of been reported that a number of nhs hospitals bringing back nhs hospitals are bringing back some restrictions we saw some of the restrictions we saw at the height of the pandemic. that includes mask mandates on wards banning most visitors. wards and banning most visitors. surely as one tory mp said, this is wrong and cruel. it seems you just need to give some people an inch and their thirst for power and control comes roaring back. is fair to say? then could is that fair to say? then could the government actually be winning battle against the winning the battle against the unions a bit unlikely, but unions seems a bit unlikely, but ministers are claiming that striking running out striking unions are running out of and could be forced to of cash and could be forced to back down before the government is in. what do is forced to give in. what do you think on that and you think on that one? and lastly, i want to know if you've bought an electric vehicle. would you have would you? or perhaps you have and maybe have a little bit of regret? asking because the and maybe have a little bit of reg has asking because the and maybe have a little bit of reg has warneding because the and maybe have a little bit of reg has warned thatecause the and maybe have a little bit of reg has warned that drivers the and maybe have a little bit of reg has warned that drivers ine aa has warned that drivers in the buying them the north aren't buying them because barely any because there are barely any charging of the m25 charging points north of the m25 . so that's what we're going to be getting stuck in to this evening on jeeves and co. let me

introduce my wonderful panel. we have political strategist and former adviser to tony blair, john mcternan. and we also have director of the free speech union, toby young, with us this evening . of course, i also want evening. of course, i also want to know all of your thoughts throughout show. please do throughout the show. please do get with me. get in touch with me. vaiews@gbnews.uk or on twitter at gb news or my personal account, which is at cava. emily so it's time now to discuss the shadow secretary of state for women and equalities blaming structural racism for the racial discrepancy in our ability to pay discrepancy in our ability to pay energy bills. toby, i'll go to you first on this one. what do you reckon this is all about? do you agree with me that it seems that once labour get back into power, which looks highly likely at this stage anyway, identity politics will be front and centre. yes, i think it will be . clearly, this is what is be. clearly, this is what is energising and giving a kind of sense of moral purpose to a lot of labour activists. and they , of labour activists. and they, labour mps and the leaders are responding to that. but the

nofion responding to that. but the notion that britain is structurally racist is just flat out wrong . i mean, as you out wrong. i mean, as you pointed out in your introduction, britain's of chinese and indian descent actually are more than white britons in schools, the lowest achieving demographic are white working class boys, the highest achieving demographic. when i last checked were chinese girls on free school meals. people say, well, okay, maybe people of chinese and indian heritage are doing well. what about black britons? isn't that an example of racism? well, that's not true ehheni of racism? well, that's not true either. i mean, if you look at the achievement of black britons of african descent in schools, they're one of the highest achieving demographics as well, even african , caribbean, even though african, caribbean, but , black britons of but black, black britons of african—caribbean descent, particularly boys, aren't doing so they're doing so well. they're still doing better working class better than white working class boys. so the idea that we're in a structurally racist, live in a structurally racist society where you're not white, where if you're not white, you're a second class citizen, is just complete nonsense . and is just complete nonsense. and it's nonsense. it's it's not just nonsense. it's divisive nonsense. and not divisive nonsense. and it's not something labour party something the labour party

should don't you should be going near. don't you accept what accept the premise of what analyst ought say? do analyst ought to say? do you believe there structural believe that there is structural racism in this country because you have to believe that first in order to want to have in order to want to then have another race equality act . i another race equality act. i believe there's inequality in the uk and i believe there's racial inequality in the uk and i believe that the labour party's task and it will be when it's in government is to tackle inequality and therefore it is likely to legislate to update the race equality legislation and to tackle a range of inequalities. there's the inequality , the working class . inequality, the working class. but this is a thing that young men and women i'm glad you mentioned class, because the labour was was meant to labour party was was meant to champion the rights of working class people equality. in that respect, it seems that they've chosen to favour the whole racial well and also gender to address a lesser degree the debate rather than the labour party. let's go an extensive programme of trade union reform

legislation. it's going to give a huge amount because as a charter for union rights workers rights, which was launched by keir starmer and angela rayner, the last time the labour conference , the one before. so conference, the one before. so labour labour's got a whole swathe of things to deal with working class people, working people, whole set of proposals there. and in this you there. and in this case, you know, the origin of the know, there the origin of the commitment for labour to tackle racial equality is renewed. it comes doreen lawrence. comes from doreen lawrence. doreen laws did a review for the labour and of all the labour party and of all the senior figures in life senior figures in public life and surely one, one who is and she's surely one, one who is most failed by the racism of the metropolitan police . is that metropolitan police. is that structural? i think it is. and it was structural. that's what the the review of found and the what the review of found and it's going to take a long time to root out some of the factors which actually discriminate which actually discriminate which put , which actually discriminate which put, you which actually discriminate which put , you know, which actually discriminate which put, you know, working class people, black working class people, black working class people, black working class people, a quarter of the working class in britain are black, black or brown . what puts black, black or brown. what puts them into poor housing? what puts them into precarious jobs?

what puts them situations what puts them into situations where kids don't do well at where the kids don't do well at university? those have to be tackled a that is tackled by a party that is committed to equality . tackled by a party that is committed to equality. i tackled by a party that is committed to equality . i the committed to equality. i the labour looking into labour people looking into looking into why people experience life differently and things might hold them back things that might hold them back or or obstacles that they may need to overcome . the other need to overcome. the other groups not do, i worry groups may not do, but i worry about what comes out of this type will be the type of stuff. what will be the recommendations? will it be mean? more quotas ? does it mean mean? more quotas? does it mean we redistribute from we need to redistribute from white people to black and ethnic minority people who can't pay their bills? i mean, where do we go with this? it seems quite extraordinary that one would want to have an act because black families are struggling with their energy bills, yet they'll see an extraordinary i mean, the commission for racial it was recently published last yean it was recently published last year, the commission for racial and ethnic despatch , which is and ethnic despatch, which is a big report produced by a group of experts which looked into the issue of whether britain does suffer from structural racism. most of the people who wrote the report were black. the chair of the , tony sewell,

the report, tony sewell, was black , and they concluded that a black, and they concluded that a lot of these disparities , which lot of these disparities, which are often cited as evidence of structural racism, are actually to do with class inequalities , to do with class inequalities, to do with class inequalities, to do with poverty, to do with level of education, socioeconomic status. and once you control for all those factors, the evidence for any actual racial structural racism completely disappears. i mean, i think you're right to ask, well, what will the labour party do to tackle this? what will be in labour's race? equality act? they haven't spelt it out yet , they haven't spelt it out yet, but i'm worried that it will be like the proposed bill that abraham x kendi has suggested in america , whereby he wants to set america, whereby he wants to set up a department of anti—racism in the american government. he wants to pass an amendment to the american constitution to make racism and racial discrimination punishable by prison sentences . and you can prison sentences. and you can just imagine that people staffing this department. the power is bound to go to their heads and they'll go round

arresting people, accusing them of racial discrimination, accusing them of responsibility for racial disparities when really it's nothing to do with them arresting people for being, you know, for having white privilege. i mean, where does it end?i privilege. i mean, where does it end? i mean, the labour party, i think, you know, it may well win the next general election, but i think the more it leans into these identitarian issues, the more the trans more it embraces the trans rights activists the rights activists agenda, the more it embraces the racially quality, the anti—racism, the critical race theory agenda, the less likely it is to win the next general election because these policies alienate won't working class people, but they do alienate white working class people. think they also people. but i think they also alienate of ethnic alienate people of ethnic minority who don't minority background to who don't particularly appreciate being lumped into one category that is bame. and i can't for the life of me understand why the labour party are still using that silly, term. but we do silly, outdated term. but we do have a little bit of information from anneliese dodds on what that race equality act might include . and apparently it means

include. and apparently it means taking all of the recommendations from the lammy review, which focussed on criminal justice and how different groups are treated within the criminal justice system, and also making sure that our curriculum . she doesn't that our curriculum. she doesn't say whether that means in schools or in universities or in primary schools , in nurseries, primary schools, in nurseries, etc. is diverse . it seems like etc. is diverse. it seems like they've decided that they want this race equality act off the back of what baroness lawrence did with the covid pandemic. she said that the covid pandemic had hit races on equally . apparently hit races on equally. apparently the pandemic was racist in one way or another. that's what the headunes way or another. that's what the headlines were saying at the time. anyway but where do we go? where does where are they going to go from this? well, is to go from this? well, it is really obvious that the way black people are treated in the criminal justice system is different from the way white people are. that needs to be deau people are. that needs to be dealt and the party keir dealt with and the no party keir starmer statistics , becky starmer statistics, becky starmer statistics, becky starmer said at the core that the launch of this, he said, we're going to try to try to

tackle these disparities. and at the core of them. so we have to tackle housing, housing, quality. one there dealing quality. one there is dealing with housing is simply to build the hundreds of thousands of council houses every year that needs to be built. if you have if you have recent because i think we all agree there's a there's a point of agreement between which is that between all of us, which is that where is class based where there is class based underachievement, class based policy, class based policy, poverty , the issues that are poverty, the issues that are inequality really matter. now, if we're quibbling about whether race an inequality is wrong to look at the class inequality as is right to look at, we need to look at inequality. the labour party was founded to deliver equality . that's always been the equality. that's always been the core of the project. a large number of people and in some of the studies on the criminal justice system that the david lammy review found a disproportionate of young disproportionate number of young black are incarcerated . black people are incarcerated. people get incarcerated for offences if they're black, get arrested, get cautioned in ways that kids don't and that that white kids don't and that needs be dealt with and

needs to be dealt with and that's that going into the criminal justice system can set you off track for the you off off the track for the rest your life. lammy said rest of your life. lammy said obama used to, in his earlier work talk about things that were much more interesting and much more for example, he spoke more real. for example, he spoke about family breakdown, absent father . he talked about family breakdown, absent father. he talked about injustice , and now he seems to injustice, and now he seems to only talk about structural racism. it's not it's not a foreign secretary move it as in vague terms. and i don't think it's particularly helpful. anyway, we must go to a break. up anyway, we must go to a break. up next, we're going to be talking about to nhs hospitals which recently banned which have recently banned visitors patients visitors and instructed patients to masks on wards due to wear masks on their wards due to wear masks on their wards due to rising covid cases . do you to rising covid cases. do you think britain's going to start re—entering using draconian covid restrictions ? let me know covid restrictions? let me know what you think. back after the .

break yes . welcome back to dewbs & co yes. welcome back to dewbs& co with me, emily carver. so i'm going to reintroduce my panel with me this evening. political strategist and former adviser to tony blair, john mcternan and director of the free speech union, toby young on my right. now we've got some breaking news tonight. the uk is set to announce that passengers arriving from china will need a negative covid test before they travel as cases surge in the country , britain has become the country, britain has become the latest nation after the us, italy and spain among others, to reintroduce restriction for travellers from china just as beijing ends its cruel and draconian zero covid policy . draconian zero covid policy. toby, can i just get your quick take on this? because i was arguing last night very strongly that the government should not do this. and i agree with do this. yeah, and i agree with you. we published piece on the you. we published a piece on the daily the website. daily sceptic, the website. i edit this morning by professor david livermore at the university of east anglia argue and i thought very persuasive oddly that this is completely pointless. no to pointless. there's no reason to suspect that dangerous new

variants of covid 19 are more likely to emerge in china than they are in the uk. after all, what we're talking about are vaccine resistant variants and not many people in china have been vaccinated with the rna vaccines. the vaccines which are prevalent in china are largely ineffective . so they're not ineffective. so they're not going to stop the old variants. so there'll be no pressure for new variants to emerge, whereas here , when most people have been here, when most people have been vaccinated with the rna vaccines, new variants resistant to those vaccines are more likely emerge. this is likely to emerge. so this is completely pointless . yeah, it completely pointless. yeah, it does a little of virtue does seem a little bit of virtue signalling and a fear of not being seen to act, i would say. john, i'll ask for your opinion next, but we're going to move on to the hospitals situation because covid restrictions aren't just going to be on travellers china. travellers from china. apparently and another alarming hark back to the covid restrictions of all to hospitals have recently the have recently banned the majority visitors and majority of their visitors and instructed to wear instructed patients to wear masks on the wards. the buses at

northampton general hospital and kettering general hospital trusts say the move is needed to protect vulnerable patients on the wards from a significant increase in covid and flu . increase in covid and flu. however, conservative mp alex kearns called the decision , in kearns called the decision, in quotes wrong and cruel so john, what do you think? do you think it's just common sense? people should mask up if they want to go into hospital? is this going to save us from a nasty bout to save us all from a nasty bout of covid or flu? we're in the fifth covid peak in the uk. it's real. we've all learned that the fifth peak is the fifth peak of the breaking news as well. we're in the fifth peak of the covid issues. if we follow the cases , issues. if we follow the cases, it's winter. we've got winter fuel, it's winter. we've got winter fuel , winter flu. we've got all fuel, winter flu. we've got all of those things. it makes sense in hospitals which are full of clinical , in hospitals which are full of clinical, vulnerable people. that's one of the there that we should take the effort to be as safe and cautious as we can be about not spreading coughs and sneezes, flues. but we know from care homes. my mum was in a care home. we know from the care

homes that they virtually eliminated norovirus and flu within care homes because of the extra hygiene measures brought in. it definitely is helpful for older, more vulnerable people to be to be be protected , be to be be protected, particularly over winter. i think it makes sense to have this kind of protection and i don't think it's a great imposition on people to wear a mask , to go into hospital, to mask, to go into hospital, to see a relative. i personally don't think it's an imposition, but others might see this as the first step on a rather slippery slope. back to mask mandate . so slope. back to mask mandate. so on the true mask mandate in schools, etc, etc. something that just based on this year. exactly. some people just like this safety first. yeah attitude regardless of whether the well the data really backs up that it did anything to stop the spread of covid. i don't think we know that for sure one way or the other . but to me, surely the other. but to me, surely the most cruel thing about this and i believe this is what this particular mp was talking about , is the fact that visitors are

being limited already. , is the fact that visitors are being limited already . yes, being limited already. yes, i think it is cruel and one slightly misleading thing about this story nhs hospital trusts have brought back mask mandate says that many nhs hospital trusts across england and wales and scotland never lifted the mask mandates in the first place. but i think we do know that the data, what the data tells us about mask wearing and it tells us that wearing masks is almost completely , if not is almost completely, if not completely ineffective at stopping transmission . there are stopping transmission. there are no randomised controlled trials, which is the gold standard of scientific evidence suggesting that wearing masks interrupts transmission of covid 19. that's why chris whitty on march 4th, 2020 said wearing a mask if you don't have an infection, reduces the risk of almost no one at all. they changed their minds , all. they changed their minds, but not because the facts change. they just changed their minds because they thought that insisting on masking up would send a signal that people would be more compliant and would be more compliant and it would encourage comply with encourage them to comply with the if if mask

the restrictions if mask if mask mandates in hospitals were effective at preventing transmission, how come about 20% of infections at the height of the pandemic originated in hospitals ? clearly masking in hospitals? clearly masking in hospitals? clearly masking in hospitals made very little impact. and to inflict this cruelty on visitors to hospitals and their loved ones is completely unnecessary. it just makes me think back to , well, makes me think back to, well, rather terrify dying times of the start of the pandemic or the height of the pandemic, where i was actually screamed at by a woman for standing on an open air platform at a tube station , air platform at a tube station, for not wearing a mask. she demanded to see if i had a mask and demand it to then watch me put it on. do we want to go back to this? i do genuinely worry that we're on a little slippery slope here, richard says. i think if they try to bring in covid restrictions, the vast majority will stick up two fingers. will they ? we've been fingers. will they? we've been quite malleable in the past, but i want to agree with toby that i think it makes no sense to apply

to chinese travellers conditions we apply to no other travellers. we've taken the situation. you do agree? we've taken a decision in the uk that vaccination is the route to protection . i've the route to protection. i've had my, my, my, my winter booster and my flu jab and i think is, i think to just china's death toll is going to be in china they're crazy policy of zero covid followed by this crazy policy of opening everything up is going to is going to massively i think opening up the crazy policy opening up was the crazy policy they're crazy they're both they're both crazy they're both crazy policy. but everywhere that has seen that has opened up has seen a spike covid cases. no no spike in covid cases. no one no one opened up without one has opened up without properly their properly vaccinating their public, have public, which the chinese have done in terms of is this done so. but in terms of is this a slippery slope , i think what a slippery slope, i think what it shows truthfully is we have a weak and inexperienced prime minister leading a weak and inexperienced government, and then we've buffeted this way in that way by the headlines , by that way by the headlines, by what they fear the focus groups

are thinking. have no core are thinking. they have no core ideal , that they have no core ideal, that they have no core view of how to run the country, whether it's economy, whether it's the economy, whether it's the economy, whether health. whether it's health. they've blown that way. and blown this way in that way. and it they're weakness that it shows they're weakness that they've given in in times for fear headlines , not for fear fear of headlines, not for fear of public health and i think that's a danger for the that's a big danger for the country be let in way. country to be let in that way. i agree with john that rishi sunak is a fairly weak leader in the government, weak. but government, is fairly weak. but let's be even let's face it, would be even worse off if labour and labour in fact impose a lockdown tomorrow. you know, it wouldn't be enough to mask. we'd all be confined to the underneath of our and in a more it's our beds for and in a more it's almost you we're almost only, you know, we're supposed to be scrutinising labour this evening. who will keir be getting his keir starmer be getting his advice from ? toby, do you think advice from? toby, do you think when it comes to making these types of decisions, will he make them different way to our them in a different way to our current prime minister? well the people at devising the government over the course of the last two and a half to three years over the pandemic, i think in due course will be found to

have given very poor advice compared, say to and his tenure the equivalent of patrick vallance in sweden. he gets it corrected by the beginning of 2020 which is don't lockdown. it won't make any difference. it'll just cause unnecessary suffering and economic hardship. and he's been proved completely right. if you look at excess mortality, sweden actually fared better than most countries, which imposed a lockdown in 2020. let's hope keir starmer ends up being advised by someone a little bit better. a little bit , little bit less nervous and risk averse than the people advising boris johnson. but i very much doubt it. i imagine it'll be more of the same. if not worse. i think if we've learned anything from keir starmer is that is very risk starmer is that he is very risk averse and it seems that it may well pay off the sort sitting well pay off the sort of sitting on fence strategy, not on the fence strategy, not giving too much away about what you really think anything. you really think about anything. just be the winner. he's just it may be the winner. he's actually taker, to be actually a risk taker, to be honest. he's just just one more point think very point on this one. i think very quickly, things worse quickly, things will be worse under labour because they say

under labour is because they say we interfering in we justify interfering in people's liberty, taking liberty away to avert this not away in order to avert this not probable but possible catastrophe. it's a kind of risk aversion that applies to climate change. it applies to the lockdown, but if you combine that with a commitment to fighting racial injustice in climate, it becomes even worse then it becomes even worse. because you're arguing, okay, if this catastrophe occurs, unlikely though it is , it will unlikely though it is, it will disproportionately affect vulnerable groups and we have a moral duty to protect them. therefore, justified in therefore, we're justified in interfering everyone's interfering with everyone's liberty to avert this rather remote. but high consequence politics. that's a very good we we've put the case extremely well there, toby, which is the is responsible government to take action to mitigate low chance risks which have high impact. that's an issue for governments as well. there's a whole debate to be had about the word vulnerable. yes, it seems to be used to describe anyone who's on a lower than average income , who's older than 50, income, who's older than 50, who's got a minor disability.

everyone seems to be vulnerable these days . you go to people these days. you go to people with red hair, people with red hair. we are extremely vulnerable, 100% of gingers have been bullied for their hair. at one point in their lives. i can certainly concern that rings true with me . anyway, labour's true with me. anyway, labour's racial equality act, we were talking about that at the start of the show . they want a race of the show. they want a race equality act to stop structural racism in this country. of course we already have an equality act, so i'm not exactly sure what is needed to be added to that . anyway. angie says to that. anyway. angie says labour are trying appeal to labour are trying to appeal to sections society to garner sections of society to garner votes election. watch votes for next election. watch them with a much more them come up with a much more woke agenda in the next couple of years. unfortunately, people get their rhetoric . get taken in by their rhetoric. i think they are trying to i do think they are trying to take racial take advantage of racial grievances for votes. yes, i do agree with that . doug says just agree with that. doug says just another party political attempt to gain black voters. davis says more labour, absolute nonsense. basically we have a truly vile

tory government along with a truly vile government opposition . britain is almost completely screwed . fact there you go screwed. fact well, there you go . delightful. happy new year to come. tim says . spot on, emily. come. tim says. spot on, emily. the left or the enemies of excellence and of striving to better oneself. they are also the enemies of our history and achieve it is worrying achieve moments. it is worrying .thank achieve moments. it is worrying . thank you very much for getting on those getting in touch on those topics. will read out some topics. i will read out some more. i think we're going to the break. i guess we'll .

now we were talking about before the break. sorry, my panellists are still talking, still chatting away. i think they're debating very interesting things. anyway, before the break we were discussing mask mandates in hospitals and also visitors being banned from , some trusts being banned from, some trusts visiting patients in hospitals ,

visiting patients in hospitals, wondering whether this is a start of a creek. back to more covid restrictions or whether these are just common sense things that make sense during the winter months, peter says , i the winter months, peter says, i have no doubt the government would love the opportunity to impose restrictions again , what impose restrictions again, what a wonderful excuse to cover up their regards to their misgivings with regards to their misgivings with regards to the economy. this sounds the present economy. this sounds a conspiracy, but perhaps there is some truth to it, david says . what part of covid will always be out there? does medical be out there? does the medical profession understand ? and profession not understand? and but if wearing but elizabeth says, if wearing a mask saves one's life , it's mask saves one's life, it's worth it. and we go, there's the safety first mentality. although we dispute in this room whether they were particularly affected or not. anyway, we're going to be moving on to strikes as ministers claim that striking unions running out of cash, unions are running out of cash, leaving them on brink of a leaving them on the brink of a government actually winning their the their battle against the militant union barons. if you can call them that, will delve into that right now . toby, what into that right now. toby, what do you think? we've seen reports that these strikes are costing the unions and their members

huge amounts of money. do you think the government perhaps is playing a blinder by just holding out until the cash strapped? well, i think it's you know, it's a tactical move on the part of the government by saying that the unions are likely to run out of money. they're essentially signalling to the unions that they're willing not to blink for the time being. and it's up the ball is in their court. it's a way of applying pressure on them to settle, saying, we're just happy to wait it out until you run out of money. so that's not in your interest to do that, because if you do that, you're going to lose. so it's in your interest to come to the negotiating table and accept the pay board recommendations, pay recommendations, which is a pay rise between four and 5. yes. rise of between four and 5. yes. now my lovely producer made me a fantastic where she has fantastic brief where she has highlighted just how much these strikes costing the unions . so strikes costing the unions. so the border force officials who are on strike, they're union is spendin g £1 million a month on spending £1 million a month on strike pay only has a £4 million

strike pay only has a £4 million strike fund. so that would be depleted quite quickly. the rmt union has depleted quite quickly. the rmt union ha s £18.6 million in its union has £18.6 million in its main funds , but again, the main funds, but again, the strike action is costing millions for them too. so could they genuinely, simply run out of money? no, because? because there's two things to say to that. one is the rcn have never had a strike in all of their existence. train strike fund is £50 million. that's the first thing, which is there are some unions are probably closer to the heart of the public. they've got enough money to see the government john. john, government hang on, john. john, you they have 50 million in you say they have 50 million in the apparently costs the bank. apparently it costs 5 million a day to fund a strike and unions have learnt from the ambulance workers strike . that ambulance workers strike. that was broken by ken clarke, queen's health secretary, and from the miners strike broken by thatcher. nobody does all the strikes anymore. think the you only need to strike for a few days on the railway and only if you on the railway if you workers on the railway if you workers on the railway if you out the signalman you you take out the signalman you can disrupt the entire network

at cost of only taking out at the cost of only taking out the workers and. the sick, the workers and. so the sick, the workers and. so the are being canny and the unions are being canny and i think the problem that the government have got here is they believe something which is going to anger union members . they're to anger union members. they're basically saying, i think toby's got psychology. got the psychology. you're right. thing about right. and the thing about strikes not logical, strikes is they're not logical, they're psychological . these they're psychological. these strikes from anger. there's strikes come from anger. there's loads more studies of strikes over time . you know, union over time. you know, union member ever wins enough in a strike to pay back the money. they lost in their earnings dunng they lost in their earnings during strike. they're making a point the point is these workers have had their their their pay pushed down. so hard in the health service, particularly that there are shortages because you can't recruit people to work at the pay. they're also essentially it doesn't matter how much money they lose because fundamentally this is a battle to the end. it's a battle of wills. of the wills. i'm not sure about that. i think it might be might become harder and harder to persuade workers to go out on strike, given that even

though they are paid when they strike they're not typically paid as would earn paid as much as they would earn if weren't out strike, if they weren't out on strike, which why, john says, they which is why, as john says, they lose money when the come lose money when the strikes come to usually. but, you to an end usually. but, you know, the current climate know, in the current climate where experiencing heavy where we're experiencing heavy pressure energy pressure on things like energy bills, food bills, how much, you know , for how long can those know, for how long can those workers put up with being paid what they wouldn't normally be paid less than they'd normally be paid. make be paid. just to make a psychological point , jane, the psychological point, jane, the parallels the government are trying between the trying to draw between the current situation and the seventies are working. toby, do you think people , the general you think people, the general public, do you see this as as similar to the seventies? therefore, the government needs to tackle them . unions are not to tackle them. unions are not running the country. to tackle them. unions are not running the country . yeah, i running the country. yeah, i mean, i, i lived through the first wage. you really i did. i was in my teens business possibly, but i younger. but it was much worse then with the

rubbish piling up on the streets and with power cuts . so we're and with power cuts. so we're not quite there yet and i don't quite it doesn't seem like a brilliant analogy for the government to come up with because after all that did for the labour government at the time led to a landslide for time and led to a landslide for the opposition the the then opposition party, the conservatives, margaret conservatives, led by margaret thatcher. for thatcher. so let's hope for rishi sunak's case. it isn't the winter of discontent to point out. think that's look, i out. i think that's look, i think i think that is right. i think i think that is right. i think the difficulty with this is see the government is you can't see the government have strategy from have any strategy apart from standing firm against everybody. if i was in number 10, i'd be going, people off bit going, let's pick people off bit by the thing about a strike action. when you're on it, you're committed to it. when you come off, it's really hard to make you go out again. so if you can find a way to take a group of workers off strike into negotiation and it's really hard to force them to go to go back and force them to go back again, create back on strike again, create a process. doesn't matter what the process. doesn't matter what the process divide and rule process is, just divide and rule a approach. and a salami slicing approach. and i don't see any subtlety to the government approach. and this is a it? you a sledgehammer, isn't it? you are run out of money.

are going to run out of money. you're going to lose that you're going to lose all that angers anger is the angers people and anger is the fuel of the strike in the conflict. you want to take anger out, but you want to be reasonable. you want to seem rational. don't even control the sunak know, sunak sunak you know, the sunak approach calming approach should be i'm calming everything down that was what you on economics. said in you said on economics. i said in replacing some comment . and replacing in a some comment. and so say that you need to act so you say that you need to act rationally and, sensibly and calm , but i do think it's fair calm, but i do think it's fair to say that some of the leaders of the union mick lynch mick lynch perhaps haven't acted in that way themselves . you see the that way themselves. you see the picket lines, everyone waving flags with socialist workers of the world unite and what not. get the tories out. bring them down. whatever, whatever is refugees. welcome it's not all you know, calmness and tranquil tea from that side. no. and you certainly get the impression that, you know, it may well be anger on the part of ordinary workers who've seen their wages fall in real terms , a result of

fall in real terms, a result of inflation that's prompting them to go out on strike. but it's that that's being exploited. i think, by the leaders of the trade unions who clearly are trying big political trying to score a big political point. they want to try and discredit and discredit the government and maybe what john maybe i don't know what john thinks this, but maybe thinks about this, but maybe the reason government this reason the government said this very provocative thing about the unions able to afford unions not being able to afford to strike for much longer is because they want them go on because they want them to go on because they want them to go on because they want them to go on because they think actually the concern is if government is benefiting politically from this strike labour, the strike and labour, the opposition is suffering because it's for keir it's quite difficult for keir starmer support them, starmer should he support them, should not, should he condemn should he not, should he condemn them it's more them and it feels like it's more damaging labour long damaging for labour in the long run than is for the tories. run than it is for the tories. but actually think, john, but i do actually think, john, that is selfish for mick that it is selfish for mick lynch particular. i'm only lynch in particular. i'm only talking rail, the rail talking about the rail, the rail strikes too. he's on his strikes here too. he's on his nine six figure salary, right. he doesn't he doesn't lose his pay he doesn't he doesn't lose his pay when they go on strike . but pay when they go on strike. but he's pushing and pushing for them not to accept this pay settlement , which other rail settlement, which other rail unions have taken on. and i'm

just thinking, it does seem , at just thinking, it does seem, at least in the case of the rail, it's a massive ego trip for him. he loves going out on media talking about that. you go tories and what not. he's good tories and whatnot. he's good at it in a way some people like him. people think he comes him. some people think he comes across boy . but is across as a bully boy. but is has the ego taken over at least when it comes to the rail? think about mick lynch, which really annoys ministers a annoys ministers i think is a mixed got of humour and mixed got a sense of humour and make self—deprecating. he make is self—deprecating. he makes himself makes fun of himself self—deprecating no self—deprecating i'm this no no you an example he has a you see as an example he has a it was eight in interviews with ask question and quite often has ask question and quite often has a little chuckle and then a game to him. no. well no it's that he understands that there is a presentation of his case and the case the government link mick lynch knows there's a deal to be done.the lynch knows there's a deal to be done. the problem is the employer ers aren't free to make the deal. now the employers know and mick lynch knows as those inefficiencies in their rail. they've got to be taken out. driver i only operated trains. i've got be brought in across i've got to be brought in across the that's of

the network. that's part of modernisation. this fight shouldn't be won in which the government takes side the government takes side the government is very strange on this. the government could say to everybody, work from to everybody, just work from home while the strike is on. that's fine, just work from home. government. home. we government. the government itself government has walked itself into where it could into a situation where it could be back off. the strike be standing back off. the strike going for the is for the going is for the is for the employers it's for the employers and it's for the unions settle this one. and unions to settle this one. and that's don't understand. that's why i don't understand. it my thing. i it goes back to my thing. i don't know what the absolute core proposition of this government my purpose the government is and my purpose the position is we can't afford inflation . pay rises across the inflation. pay rises across the pubuc inflation. pay rises across the public sector. we probably have to pay. it doesn't increase inflation, as you know i'm not saying it increases. i don't agree with that. what the government says that there will be a wage price spiral and that these wages will contribute to inflation up inflation and push it up further. i buy that, further. i don't buy that, presumably because of that presumably because a lot of that money directly to pay money will go directly to pay for energy bills and general cost of living that's going up anyway. i take point anyway. but i do take the point that board, public that across the board, public sector rises would be

sector pay rises would be extremely for us to extremely difficult for us to pay extremely difficult for us to pay for. right now, it looks like the government just needs to change its fiscal rules and the government therefore no , the government therefore no, really the fiscal got a bit more elastic government which in 12 years has never met one of its fiscal rules . it creates fiscal fiscal rules. it creates fiscal rules to create black holes to then force down public sector pay - then force down public sector pay . they invented austerity. pay. they invented austerity. the pretence that britain was greece. great britain was never going to be greece. but the tory government pretend it and therefore i think quite a lot of people would like the government to get public spending under. yeah, i do. so that we don't have to continue to borrow high rates. i don't think the current black hole is an invention of the tory government . the result the tory government. the result of spending something like half a trillion pounds in order to pay a trillion pounds in order to pay people to stay at home and not work during the furlough policy. those of us worked when we were at home. yes, we never did. we never will to more often and certainly people weren't

particularly productive . oh, i particularly productive. oh, i was incredibly well in, some parts of the public sector, they went happened with the went know what happened with the passports and government passports and other government agencies . they essentially agencies. they essentially someone from the inside we someone said from the inside we were just watching netflix, the taxpayer that taxpayer remember that shares were credit productive gp's were in credit productive gp's doing telemedicine things like in. i think it depends on the gp, it depends on the teacher, it depends on the, the, the, the, whatever. one thing is that was puzzled me emily, about people working from home is when you, when you bring up the dlc, you, when you bring up the dlc, you know, and they say there may be delays because we're working from home is like , well, wait from home is like, well, wait a minute, if you're not commuting every day, you know, why are there any delays? why aren't you actually being more efficient? you be you're you would normally be if you're working. actually say working. did they actually say that delayed? that's that might be delayed? that's the you whenever you the excuse you get whenever you call anyone you're put on hold and get a recurring message and you get a recurring message played over again played over and over again saying be unusual saying there may be unusual delays we're working delays because we're working from due to the disruption from home due to the disruption . but i must say that for this afternoon and i got i got

exactly that because i must say that during the pandemic, i worked extremely long hours because there's nothing else to do. exactly. was sat in front do. exactly. i was sat in front my laptop. yes. but it was one of those jobs that you can do at home. everything just went simply digital. anyway, home. everything just went simpwere |ital. anyway, home. everything just went simpwere once anyway, home. everything just went simpwere once all anyway, home. everything just went simpwere once all the anyway, home. everything just went simpwere once all the rage, y, home. everything just went simpwere once all the rage, but they were once all the rage, but now they're making drivers in raged. break, i lost raged. after the break, i lost my panel own an electric my panel if they own an electric vehicle and they want to vehicle and do they even want to stay tuned .

yes. welcome back to dewbs& co with me. emily carver with me until 7:00 is my panel political strategist and former adviser to tony blair, john mcternan and director of the free speech union, toby young. of course, with me this hour. now we were talking before the break about the strike action. could the unions run out of cash and be

forced to back down from the strikes? we had a difference of opinion on the panel. you've been getting in touch now. john said that mick lynch has a great sense of humour. look louise fundamentally disagrees with you there, she says. mick lynch a sense of humour. don't make me laugh . he's sense of humour. don't make me laugh. he's so sense of humour. don't make me laugh . he's so up sense of humour. don't make me laugh. he's so up himself. laugh. he's so far up himself. it's not it's not possible for him to have won. so from that you've a better sense of you've got a better sense of humour than mick lynch. there peter says, this a ploy peter says, is this a tory ploy to bankrupt unions , starve to bankrupt the unions, starve the party of funds ? i the labour party of funds? i think in that far ahead they just want to get through this 20 and strike. they've ringfenced, oh, there we go, go play the markets. i simply thought that money's ringfenced, michael says . spot on, emily. union leaders don't lose during don't lose a penny during industrial action and paul says lynch is scargill point oh so we go a variety of views that you've been sending in this evening . now finally, as we evening. now finally, as we continue to buy more and more electric cars, pressure is apparently mounting on the government and authorities to

provide the charging points to be able to charge them all up. well, we now have some 36,000 charges in the uk. this is clearly nowhere near enough given that there are now over 620,000 battery electric cars in the uk currently. so given that these cars are so expensive to buy, run and find a charging point for how electric cars run their last race toby the aa today has warned drivers in the north won't invest in electric cars because nearly half the uk's charging points are actually in london and the southeast. yeah, it doesn't surprise me. i actually flirted with the idea of getting a little juice last year and not a day passes when i don't think the law that i didn't get i the law that i didn't get one. i mean, first all, the density mean, first of all, the density working very well when the weather below we've weather drops below zero we've seen lots of stories in america in particular during the cold snap on the east coast with teslas no longer working , even teslas no longer working, even in in the south, where in the even in the south, where there more charging points there were more charging points than all in the north. than they're all in the north. there aren't enough to complete.

long been plenty there aren't enough to complete. lo stories been plenty there aren't enough to complete. lo stories in been plenty there aren't enough to complete. lo stories in the been plenty there aren't enough to complete. lo stories in the papersn plenty there aren't enough to complete. lo stories in the papers aboutty of stories in the papers about people stranded to get people stranded trying to get home their in—laws over the home from their in—laws over the christmas break. they're not going to much cheaper than going to be much cheaper than petrol diesel cars shortly, petrol or diesel cars shortly, given the price of electricity . given the price of electricity. and it's not surprising, actually , that tesla share price actually, that tesla share price has fallen by 70% over the past yeah has fallen by 70% over the past year. i don't think that's because elon musk is distracted trying to run twitter. i think it's because people are realising that a bit of twitter now, isn't it? well, i think he's trying to pass on the head to him, but i think he's trying to him, but i think he's trying to get rid of it. but i think people are realising that, you know, electronic vehicles are no longer transportation of the longer the transportation of the future. glad future. and i'm just glad i never one. yes i think never bought one. yes i think what interesting and what is quite interesting and i didn't this, but it makes didn't know this, but it makes sense of course, because it's an electric vehicle is that if you run the heating depletes run the heating that depletes the quickly, do you the battery very quickly, do you do drive electric vehicle? do you drive a electric vehicle? firstly, no no. would you firstly, john, no no. would you buy one if you had to buy a car? i will. when the stable technology, the not stable technology, the not stable

technology yet. so i'll buy them when they're being commodified, when they're being commodified, when rich people have bought them, they've learnt them, when they've learnt everything you can about them. but evidence is that but all the evidence is that electric are cheaper to electric vehicles are cheaper to run petrol cars run than diesel or petrol cars because there's only one thing in them that's the battery. there's not enough that runs the wheels. they're not there's not many parts for servicing. so service costs are low. the mileage is very, very low because electricity is cheaper than petrol. electricity itself can be generated renewably which so we have to shift to electric vehicles and the thing for me that confuses me is all the petrol companies know they're going to have to stop selling petrol and start selling electricity. and so the issue is why are they not stepping in? and i know one lot stepping to in provide charging points north of . they're doing that of the m25. they're doing that because they're waiting for a government subsidy and it's a kind of it's a game of chicken and they can see if there can be enough fuss in the press, then there'll be a government subsidy. i've never seen a private company not anxious for

a and a government subsidy, and i think the government needs to stare down on this i stare them down on this one. i think that can get to tackle think that we can get to tackle climate change if . we replace climate change if. we replace every diesel car , petrol every single diesel car, petrol car, electric vehicle . people car, electric vehicle. people are going to have to up are going to have to give up their cars. and that's the big thing. no one wants to talk thing. and no one wants to talk about we're going to about that. we're going to have to road charging. yeah to bring in road charging. yeah to petrol tax. well to replace petrol tax. well that's to breath that's that's got to breath that's coming isn't i was coming next, isn't it? i was talking a lady earlier who's talking to a lady earlier who's bought a an electric vehicle and she was coming in reading about it and says there's it and she says there's definitely said definitely honestly she said there definitely and there are definitely pros and cons. there are definitely pros and cons . only there are definitely pros and cons. only has a 130 mile mileage . so it can only go 120 mileage. so it can only go 120 miles range. that's the word i was looking for. only has a 130 mile range. that was no good for driving up to, say, manchester from london or up to newcastle . from london or up to newcastle. so there's also the anxiety , the so there's also the anxiety, the range anxiety that comes with that, whether you are going to be able to find a charging point in time and it's also been in the news a lot that people have

been waiting hours to get to an electric charger. jane, there might be some people with a bit of electric vehicle regret. i think there might, but regret think there might, but a regret in electric market at one in the electric market at one point to make is that, you know, people imagine that scrap people imagine that by scrap buying their old cars , buying buying their old cars, buying a brand new electric car , that brand new electric car, that they're doing their bit to tackle climate change. but the carbon emissions involved in producing a brand new car, even if it's an electric cover, far greater than any carbon emissions you're going to produce by continuing to drive your diesel or petrol driven cards in ludicrous form of virtually signalling. so typical of the green helping . i mean, of the green helping. i mean, toby's right very quickly. we're going to to wrap up. toby, going to have to wrap up. toby, drive the cars are the problem is not we need fewer more is not we need fewer cars more buses right. i'm just buses right right. i'm just going read out one comment going to read out one comment because going have to because we're going to have to end show very quickly. because we're going to have to end says,r very quickly. because we're going to have to end says, new quickly. because we're going to have to end says, i mayquickly. because we're going to have to end says, i may have.y. because we're going to have to end says, i may have missed george says, i may have missed something, it comes to something, but when it comes to road don't electric cars road tax, don't electric cars use the roads in exactly the same as the rest us? and same way as the rest of us? and that's i think they're that's why i think they're probably slap tax probably going to slap that tax on enough. thank

on everyone soon enough. thank you much for tuning in this you very much for tuning in this evening. that's all we have time for tonight. young for tonight. we had toby young of john watson. and with of and john watson. and with me from 6:00. very much from 6:00. thank you very much for touch. that's all for getting in touch. that's all for getting in touch. that's all for now. don't it's fox next. hello again, aidan mcgivern here from the met office. it was a thoroughly start for many thoroughly soggy start for many of this morning, but the of us. this morning, but the rain eases this afternoon . rain eases this afternoon. further showers in the west and this going mild for this is going to be mild for many, in the south. many, especially in the south. we've got this southwesterly airflow across northern scotland is different story. low is a different story. low pressure here bringing cold air and a feature in the far north, bringing persistent rain bringing some persistent rain and hills snow during the rest of a friday to the northern isles north of the mainland. and then snow reaching low then that snow reaching low levels . but elsewhere it's mild. levels. but elsewhere it's mild. and after a brief interlude of dner and after a brief interlude of drier weather, further rain sweeps in from the southwest overnight . spells of wet weather overnight. spells of wet weather on and off. england, wales, southern scotland and parts of northern seeing showers as well. a coming from a breeze coming from the south—west that as we south—west means that as we start off saturday, it's 13 celsius in the south, but it's cold in the north of scotland

where also windy 70 mile where it's also windy 70 mile per gusts clearing per hour wind gusts clearing northeast through northeast of scotland through the further snow the early hours and further snow and issues as we start the and ice issues as we start the day northern scotland , day for northern scotland, brighter for central scotland , brighter for central scotland, some rain reaching southern scotland during afternoon, falling as snow of the southern uplands and it's mild much of england and wales with rain on and along with a strong and off, along with a strong wind and temperatures of 13 or 14 celsius into new year's eve evening . the spells of rain evening. the spells of rain continue to northwards and it looks soggy across central parts of the uk . i looks soggy across central parts of the uk. i think looks soggy across central parts of the uk . i think southern of the uk. i think southern areas turning drier for a time. the north of scotland also drier with some snow showers in places, but the rain reaching the likes of edinburgh by and pushing north into central scotland, falling as snow over the hills mild. meanwhile further south with further showers following sunday and thursday , it does look a little thursday, it does look a little brighter in part, but actually these showers as they come through will be heavy. they'll move through quickly and it

looks like later in the day it will be a bit drier. england and wales, but further rain for scotland and northern ireland. a dner scotland and northern ireland. a drier monday with some drier spell on monday with some sunshine, coming in sunshine, further rain coming in on tuesday .

good evening . do not adjust your good evening. do not adjust your set. yes, i am here for one last time in 2020. team before we wave goodbye to this and welcome in the . next. first of all we're in the. next. first of all we're going to talk about covid. yes, there are travel restrictions again and people are wearing masks again. but what i want to talk to you about is research research. research we shouldn't