channel oh, i'm simon evans. channel oh, i'm simon evans . join me on oh, i'm simon evans. join me on gb news for headliners in 11 pm, where i'll be joined by two pm, where i'll be joined by two of the country's top comedians as we take a look at tomorrow's newspapers tonight. if it's a big story , we'll be covering it, big story, we'll be covering it, i guarantee. but we'll also have some along way . that's some fun along the way. that's gb headliners at 11 pm. we gb news headliners at 11 pm. we won't put you to sleep. unlike some of the other people review shows out there. so join us 11 pm, seven nights a week . shows out there. so join us 11 pm, seven nights a week. i'm p.m, seven nights a week. i'm michael portillo. join me on gb news on a sunday morning for topical discussion. debate arts and culture and sometimes even ethical dilemmas around . i ethical dilemmas around. i always agree with you, michael.

michael portillo sundays on the people's channel, britain's news . people's channel, britain's news. ch good evening. i'm radisson in the gb newsroom. pope francis has paid his respects to his whilst addressing worshippers at the vatican pope benedict xvi died within vatican city at the age of 95. tomorrow morning, his body will be brought to st peter's basilica, where people will be able to pay their respects. he'll lie in state for three days until his funeral on the 5th of january. celebrate is to mark the start of 2023 have taken place across the country with more than 100,000 people gathering in central london to watch the fireworks .

watch the fireworks. at london's mass as the 12 minute display, which was the first since the start of the pandemic , is the start of the pandemic, is the biggest in europe. sold out show featured a tribute to the late queen and also highlighted the lionesses euros win and showed solidarity with . ukraine while solidarity with. ukraine while in his new year message to ukraine president volodymyr zelenskyy says he hopes the war with russia will end in 2023. he spoke as missiles rained down in and around the capital kyiv ukraine's armed forces say russia launched more than 31 missile and 12 airstrikes across the country overnight. curfews ranging from 7 pm. to midnight made celebration for the start of the new year . made celebration for the start of the new year. impossible in pubuc of the new year. impossible in public spaces . the archbishop of public spaces. the archbishop of canterbury is urging the government to tackle what he calls the country's broken social care system. justin welby used his new year message to say

care homes are struggling to cover energy bills and retain staff . he's called on everyone staff. he's called on everyone to rise to the challenge of repairing the present system. the government says social care was made a priority in month's autumn budget, pledging was made a priority in month's autumn budget, pledgin g £7.5 autumn budget, pledging £7.5 billion in support over the next two years. a record number of migrants , almost 46,000, had migrants, almost 46,000, had crossed the english channel to the uk last year. that's 60% higher than the figure for 2021. the last crossings of 2022 took place on christmas when 90 people made the journey from france on to small boats. the prime minister, rishi sunak, has promised to bring in laws this year to make it clear to those who enter the country illegally that they won't be allowed to stay . and from today, more than stay. and from today, more than 4600 bus routes across england will have fares capped at £2 for a single journey. more than 130 operators outside of london have joined the scheme, which will last until the end of march. the

cap is being paid for with a £60 million government to fund on tv , online and on dab, plus radio , this is . , this is. gb news. cinema fans accused the film avatar of being racist. students are told that alfred lord tennyson is problematic . and mps warn problematic. and mps warn nicholas sturgeon that her new gender self id laws are a danger to women and girls . this is free to women and girls. this is free speech nation . welcome to the speech nation. welcome to the first free speech nation of 2023. with me andrew doyle . this 2023. with me andrew doyle. this is the show where we take a look at culture, current affairs and politics and we keep you up to date on the latest lunacy from this loveable social justice activists as they eagerly sniff out thing to cancel. so out the next thing to cancel. so coming the show today, coming up on the show today, jeremy was forced to jeremy clarkson was forced to apologise his remarks apologise for his remarks about meghan calling meghan markle. with many calling for fraser

for press censorship, fraser myers joining me in the myers will be joining me in the studio that story. studio to discuss that story. we'll looking at a case we'll also be looking at a case of professor art history of a professor of art history who fired for showing the who was fired for showing the class a mediaeval painting of the prophet muhammad. and i'll be to two people who be speaking to two people who have detransition that's ritchie heron keira bell. all that heron and keira bell. all that and much, much more up on free speech nation and my studio guest this evening are leo kearse louis schaefer . kearse and louis schaefer. welcome, both. we don't have an audience tonight, so a bit audience tonight, so feels a bit strange . it's tuesday. no one strange. it's tuesday. no one was going to come, so we didn't even them. yeah, i think even invite them. yeah, i think the it is like my the way to do it is like my house. based on your house house. i based it on your house and the way that operate . do and the way that you operate. do you a nice year? what you have a nice new year? what did it was naseer stated did you do? it was naseer stated in a voice that danny boyle, sex pistols drummer. any good? not really. but really. not really. okay but that's way to spend new that's a good way to spend new year's out. year's rather than going out. turnover price with turnover price pub with overpriced absolutely overpriced drinks absolutely hand actually hand jostled about. we actually were last were on the headliners last night new year's eve. you night for new year's eve. you gave me that gift. a lovely gift. it was like gout testing gift. it was like a gout testing machine year ago. said, machine was a year ago. i said, remember gout more than remember that gout is more than uric and uric acid is more

uric acid and uric acid is more than the most than gout. it's the most important in this is important issue in this is national gout awareness week. well, you heard first. well, you heard it here first. national week. national gout awareness week. ladies and gentlemen, make sure that checking your that you're checking your urinary lewis has urinary whatever. lewis has got the machines. anyway, we're going questions. going to get some questions. just rinse first. give just give it a rinse first. give it a rinse. the yeah, it a rinse. the machine. yeah, do right. we're going do that. right. we're going to get questions our get some questions from our viewers. we don't have an audience, as i said, tonight, but do have guys at home but we do have you guys at home who been emailing. our who have been emailing. our first is from jane and first question is from jane and the has said is the film the jane has said is the film avatar racist? okay. so the background to this many fans are really apparently really angry. apparently with the because been the franchise because it's been promoting what they call the white saviour now, white saviour narrative. now, i haven't the new avatar film. i saw the first avatar film that was than and i left was more than enough, and i left it at that. now, apparently, the white narrative white saviour narrative convention, basically when a white character rescues white main character rescues non—white characters from unfortunate circumstances. but the non—white characters in avatar are blue. yeah, so i don't think blue people are being persecuted generally. and also the character that they're seeing is white is also blue. he's blue as well .

seeing is white is also blue. he's blue as well. but i think he's a person , but he's a white person, but masquerading a blue sea blue masquerading as a blue sea blue face. doing blue. yeah, face. he's doing blue. yeah, yeah. mean, i saw the yeah. i mean, avatar. i saw the first avatar. i hadn't seen the new one, but it is racist. is racist against against white people. anti—immigration people. it's anti—immigration against white people is seen if white people come to your planet, fight them planet, you should fight them and you know, in the and stop them. you know, in the diversity and it also says the white people, when they come, what we were doing was bringing technology to improve these long smurfs lives and they were saying that those bad the very smurf like the whole thing feels like an extended cartoon . i like an extended cartoon. i hated the first one and i hated it, particularly because everyone was saying how amazing it was and how i had to see it. and i did see it and i then not only i hate the film, but only did i hate the film, but i hated the people who recommended the unfair. no, it's not the film is unfair. no, it's not unfair hate to hate people unfair to hate to hate people who recommend the film. and that film. i remember that film. i just remember it was like, totally. mr. louis totally. i missed mr. louis schafer the is schafer is missed, the tree is missed. the that i fought missed. the tree that i fought for for almost decade.

for trees for almost a decade. you're tree so i you're pro tree. tree so i believe trees and then like believe in trees and then like fighting over this tree, which i believe it is, the thing about this movie that makes it so bad, which in one it which i in number one it basically man as an evil malevolent force. yes. yeah we are so are destroying the planet. so this is not it's not it's not a it's basically self—hatred . it's basically self—hatred. yeah, it's not it's not that. well, i don't really care about what the message of the film is as long as it's entertaining and interesting. but i was just bored the whole way. and apparently one is even apparently the new one is even more and i this as more boring. and i say this as someone who's big fan of james someone who's a big fan of james cameron, really cameron, i really loved terminator two. think aliens terminator two. i think aliens is up from the original. is a step up from the original. i love titanic yeah people i love titanic even. yeah people think bad. i think think titanic's bad. i think it's yeah you know, i'm it's great. yeah you know, i'm a fan i hate this stuff. what fan and i hate this stuff. what does did you just go does it. why did you just go back what used to? he also back to what he used to? he also said this year that avatar two wouldn't guilty kind wouldn't be guilty of the kind of toxic masculinity that he explored in avatar one. it's great advice great to get advice on masculinity somebody masculinity from somebody with three marriages under his three failed marriages under his belt. know that about belt. i didn't know that about him. i made a message. him. well, i made up a message. it's three or it's about three or four. there's at least it's

there's definitely at least it's hollywood. and kate hollywood. yeah. and kate winslet, who is like she's the poster out poster lady for kicking men out of house and raising the of the house and raising the children by herself. now she's in new film, but she's in the new film, but she's playing she? the playing it, wasn't she? the older don't think so. older fellow? i don't think so. she's person. she's playing blue person. she's another not a blue another bleep. she's not a blue person, she is she someone person, but she is she someone who's got veins? all of who's got varicose veins? all of her, say, well, by raising her, i say, well, by raising awareness of you raise awareness of that, you raise awareness of that, you raise awareness gout. that's next awareness of gout. that's next week that next week you'll be doing that next week. we will get week. fantastic. but we will get to next week. so to varicose veins next week. so do tune for in that. we've got a question now from amanda. amanda says, be forced to says, should you be forced to retire years of age ? okay. retire at 82 years of age? okay. so now this is a reference , so now this is a reference, obviously, to president joe biden because he is just poised to announce his run for re—election early this year. this won't come as a surprise. a lot people already knew this, but there lots of but there has been lots of people the democrat party who people in the democrat party who have saying, we have been basically saying, we need candidate and need a younger candidate and they definitely a younger they will definitely a younger candidate. by way, if ron candidate. by the way, if ron desantis going to the desantis is going to run for the republicans, can imagine ron republicans, can you imagine ron desantis next? joe desantis standing next? joe biden in a debate i mean, that

won't be a debate at all. it be a it'll be carnage. yeah i mean, joe biden was too old, the first time round. he's definitely time round. so he's definitely too this time around. and too old this time around. and also, i mean, on also, they're so i mean, on a serious note, every him for four cluelessness and reading reads the autocue like anchorman he reads you know the bits that you're not supposed to oh yeah he says pause now pause for dramatic effect . yeah says loud. dramatic effect. yeah says loud. and then he wanders off stage and that's the one they're back on to find the door, tries to shake hands with people. aren't there references? people have been dead for 17 years and i mean, but it's sad . i mean, we mean, but it's sad. i mean, we laugh about it, but is a serious issue. this guy is like, you know ostensibly reading the autocue of the person who runs the largest military in the world. this is i mean, if it was anyone else i wouldn't to anyone else i wouldn't want to mock. i wouldn't want draw mock. i wouldn't want to draw attention because bad attention it because i feel bad for suffering this way. for somebody suffering this way. i president, if going i think the president, if going to be a greeter at walmart, finds but finds fine beauty too. but you know as the president, i think i'm not just in the least, but if president and

if you're the president and you're acknowledging you're not acknowledging that you've decline, you've got cognitive decline, then it for you then people should it for you right now because asking the wrong now you're wrong question now you're looking and saying , wrong question now you're looking and saying, can looking at him and saying, can he the job and can he do the he do the job and can he do the job? yes, he can. he could do the because he is his job that he's been chosen to do is to do what he's been told. that's what he's been told. but that's the problem system. the problem with your system. i hate say you're not the hate to say you're not the representative of america i will be, because it's the greatest system the world. it is the system in the world. it is the greatest system in the world because they have puppet because they have a puppet president basically president who is just basically shunted and shunted around by people. and he's first president he's not the first president that had that. you he isn't that has had that. you he isn't the puppet president. we want to name what's name? name names like what's his name? and president wilson. and wilson. president wilson. yes. i. he was like he yes. world war i. he was like he had brain cerebral haemorrhage had a brain cerebral haemorrhage or that or something like that and his wife was running well, there go. that's point. but the point that's my point. but the point is point it's chosen by is the point is it's chosen by the people if the people want to have who's brain dead the people if the people want to haviis who's brain dead the people if the people want to haviis doing who's brain dead the people if the people want to haviis doing whato's brain dead the people if the people want to haviis doing what they'ain dead the people if the people want to haviis doing what they himiead the people if the people want to haviis doing what they him to d but is doing what they him to do. but wouldn't it be do. okay, but wouldn't it be better implement which better to implement system which would similar to ours. would be more similar to ours. yeah, as you know we've yeah, insofar as you know we've got the, the prime got pmcs right the, the prime

minister face minister has to stand up face a barrage of difficult questions does have there's no rule does not have there's no rule that says he has to. well he don't what's it's don't know what's it's convention but that's not a rules constitution but one's rules constitution but no one's going for them if they going to vote for them if they don't. you think don't. i mean don't you think that's something like that for your president be quite healthy because that the because it means that the candidate would be stronger candidate would to be a stronger candidate? first of candidate? first of all first of all, this about the all, let say this about the british british system and british british system and british in general. british people in general. this country, greatest country, britain is the greatest country, britain is the greatest country world because it country in the world because it created and america is created america and america is now country. now the greatest country. america, you you america, obviously, you like you know, you're jenny murray. and then surely then iraq should be then surely then iraq should be the country the the greatest country in the world created world because it was created by america. is the america. well, maybe iraq is the greatest country. maybe it greatest country. yeah, maybe it is. yeah. it's better. but the point is, what the point point is, what was the point that you're making is the system in they've they've in america, they've they've figure they figured figure it out and they figured it by british who it out by british people who live under live for hundreds of years under the british. and they said, let's do something else. it was i understand. can i just don't understand. can i just you trump, just ask you about trump, though? it could though? i mean, so it could trump is as old as joe biden. yeah.i trump is as old as joe biden. yeah. i mean, saying he's going to his will and he's saying to run his will and he's saying he's to run as and

he's going to run as well. and trump also unhinged in a trump is also unhinged in a different wouldn't different way. yeah. wouldn't it be better for everyone if we just had again, not the ages, but candidates are at but just candidates who are at least i think least below 717? i don't think there be a hard and there needs to be a hard and fast cut—off we don't know. you know, in ten years time the way technology going, right? technology is going, right? maybe age of 80 maybe people over the age of 80 will some some to will have some some use to society. what you think, society. what do you think, desantis trump time. oh desantis of trump next time. oh you're predicting these you're good at predicting these things. not i'm not things. i know i'm not i'm not good at it with you. i didn't see trump coming at all. really? yeah. would say who who do i yeah. i would say who who do i personally want win. who's personally want to win. who's ever best for america? okay, ever is best for america? okay, there diplomatic there he is. being diplomatic again good for louis. again as ever. good for louis. we're on now to we're going to move on now to a question from sam. sam is saying, we believe saying, should we believe extinction promises? saying, should we believe extirthisn promises? saying, should we believe extirthisn this promises? saying, should we believe extirthisn this theromises? saying, should we believe extirthisn this the newszs? and this is this is the news that broke today, extinction rebellion said that they're going their public going to stop their public protests, been protests, which have been obviously motorways obviously bringing motorways to a of a standstill. that kind of thing, because admitted thing, because they've admitted that doesn't that basically this doesn't achieve you and achieve anything, you know, and it actually does it does what actually does achieve there? achieve something there? it makes resent makes everyone really resent them cause. yeah them and hate their cause. yeah and made it's contributed and it's made it's contributed to a climate change. being such

a partisan divisive issue. it should be some new climate change is happening. i think. i think is changing. think the climate is changing. i don't think is entirely a bad thing. and i don't think, you know, the government getting involved make things involved will make things better. but it's partisan better. but it's this partisan thing where i, me and irritate other people that feel that we can't be aligned with greta thunberg and extinction rebellion because . they made it rebellion because. they made it such a sort of, you know, the just the meat of this thing where you got to be like some sort of dreadlocked white guy vegan diet, you know , all that vegan diet, you know, all that kind of stuff. so you're saying we can't have a sensible debate about the subject anymore because it's too becomes impossible maybe. but you know, inoficed impossible maybe. but you know, i noticed this announcement i noticed with this announcement they have said they just stop oil have said they're to on. yeah they're going to carry on. yeah i'm don't just block i'm just don't just block motorways they glue motorways because they glue themselves painting themselves to van gogh painting using based or using oil based glues yeah or paints soup so whatever the paints or soup so whatever the hell do and that also hell they do and that also portion. yeah plumbing and it's so they get arrested and so weird they get arrested and sent prison they cry and sent to prison and they cry and they that posh can they don't that posh people can go they don't, they go to prison, they don't, they didn't expect they. didn't expect that did they. with everything a

with everything handed on a plate to them don't you think. don't just wish mean i'm don't you just wish i mean i'm with on this. i would like with you on this. i would like to be to have the to be able to have the conversation and the debates without, you know, all this hysterical screeching. while hysterical screeching. but while you've got people glueing themselves homeless themselves to roads and homeless people it is they people or whatever it is they do, that's helpful. is it? no. and i i know about and i know. i know about the extinction rebellion because you know person. i know know the person. yes, i know personally, because i fought with side by side when we with them side by side when we were to say peckham green were trying to say peckham green in and are people in suffolk and these are people they they're bright, they mean well, they're bright, but they believe but and they they believe it. and that the and that is that that the problem you're trying to find some debate there no some open debate there is no open debate believe that we as humans like an avatar i guess drawing yeah so we drawing the planet. yeah so we are people. you if are killing people. so if you if well if you question that that means you are causing people to die . they believed it if they die. they believed it if they believed it and believe that everybody's got a carbon footprint and that carbon footprint and that carbon footprint is the worst thing for the they can reduce the planet, they can reduce their carbon footprint to their own carbon footprint to zero by just ceasing to exist. what could that does it mean? that doesn't mean they're wrong just because they're hypocrites

is they could do something about it. they won't get in to work. they could. but that and it might be best they could be might be the best they could be hypocrites. isn't hypocrites. and yeah. isn't there problem? is. there a problem? there is. basically you're saying that they are convinced that armageddon is around the corner. yes. have to sort yes. that they they have to sort of just dismiss any possible objections. but wouldn't it help? just open their help? they could just open their mind the mind a little bit to the possibility that might be possibility that they might be wrong. have the wrong. so can have the discussion. are discussion. and if they are right, they'll other people right, they'll win other people around to their point of view that be true. when you that might be true. but when you believe somebody just believe that somebody is just like the thing. yes. is like in the covid thing. yes. is that believe that if that people believe that that if you take vaccine, you're you don't take a vaccine, you're killing yeah. so if killing granny. yeah. so if you that can't well, i'm that you can't say, well, i'm going just you i'm going to just you know, i'm going to just you know, i'm going open mind a little going to open my mind a little bit. no, you are killing granny on your similarly with the protesters clinics, protesters outside clinics, they believe that thousands of children murdered. and children are being murdered. and if believe that, you if you believe that, you wouldn't do something about it anyway, going to move anyway, we're going to move on that final question the that this final question for the moment. one is from moment. this one is from bridget. should bridget. bridget says, should the views of historic poets be highlighted in university and that this is specifically about the at lincoln university who've

been had some sort of been told they had some sort of tour academics were tour and the academics were telling that these telling them that these local figures problematic , like figures were problematic, like the alfred lord tennyson , the poet alfred lord tennyson, who, of course, wrote lady of charlotte in memoriam, all those great, great pieces of work . charlotte in memoriam, all those great, great pieces of work. i had to study them at the university. and this is 150 students. i attended a decolonisation tour of the university's building and all these people just by saying, ah, this person's offensive, that's most offensive. lord alfred tennyson, though, 200 ago. tennyson, though, 200 years ago. yeah well, he would have had different views . yeah, everyone yeah well, he would have had differe have ews . yeah, everyone yeah well, he would have had differe have ./s . yeah, everyone yeah well, he would have had differe have . and'eah, everyone yeah well, he would have had differe have . and iofi, everyone yeah well, he would have had differe have . and for the,eryone yeah well, he would have had differe have . and for the, for ne yeah well, he would have had differe have . and for the, for the would have. and for the, for the standards , the time it probably standards, the time it probably quite progressive he would have been reasonable he reasonably walk. i'm going i've no idea. i've got no interest in poetry all things quite boring and 200 you should read austen was done 200 years of good they didn't even have films computer games but alfred tennyson, whatever his is like a you know, one his name is like a you know, one of his poems. i know a number of his poems are the good. yeah, you'll know some of them you'll note, you'll know. charge of the

light brigade. that's a film. yeah, but, you know, there's a reason why there's worse would do 200 years of do after a film. 200 years of wickedness know lady wickedness you'll know the lady of know the so, of shalott. i don't know the so, but they're like thing. they're fancy. look, there's just an it's not about charlotte but yeah but this i just feel that judging people by the standards judging people by the standards judging people by the standards judging people from 200 years ago, it's like judging a caveman for not eating quinoa . it's like for not eating quinoa. it's like he's from he's from somerset . he's from he's from somerset. there wasn't any quinoa. those are those to flown in from peru. should judge the cavemen? should we judge the cavemen? they some pretty brutal they had some pretty brutal behaviour. i don't want to agree with but i agree with with with leo, but i agree with leo. in the past i'm leo. it's so in the past i'm going to change my to louis comma. james schaefer there is change. he's like alfred lord , change. he's like alfred lord, comma, lord alfred, comma lord tennyson i'm telling you to louis grape save as you say, it's so it's all about self—hatred. yeah so this is all about sort of avatar. every one of these stories about self hatred gives people this warm feeling. it's a relief. yes. this self—flagellation. they get

to you. look, they're above everyone else because look at me. i'm such a martyr and so pious it's so pointless judging people by the different standards time . you standards from their time. you might as well jackson for having a his name. you attack a comma in his name. you attack him he has him having punctuation. he has punctuation name punctuation in the name who gives the right to be called gives him the right to be called lord. well that lord. yeah, well exactly that was go very good. that's counsel him after the on free him anyway after the on free speech going to be speech nation we're going to be discussing we should discussing whether we should have to hate. following have a right to hate. following jeremy about jeremy clarkson's column about meghan a couple of meghan markle c in a couple of minutes minutes.

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation me andrew doyle so before the we touched on the column by former top gear presenter jeremy clarkson and in it he confessed to loathing meghan markle on a quote cellular level and wanting to perform a walk of shame and outrage. so joining me discuss this, i have the deputy editor of spiked fries, miles fraser ,

of spiked fries, miles fraser, thank you very much for joining me. thanks for having me. give us a background to what he wrote. was the context? yes wrote. what was the context? yes he's writing in response to now infamous meghan and harry docu series and meghan and harry show really whole kind of saga around their relationship with the royal family. and he was basically saying that he really is not a fan of meghan markle . is not a fan of meghan markle. hyperbolic way. i mean, it was it was ridiculously hyperbolic . it was ridiculously hyperbolic. he talks about loathing her on a cellular . hates he talks about loathing her on a cellular. hates her more than cellular. he hates her more than he hates nicholas sturgeon and rose west yes. and then most infamously, he makes an allusion game of thrones, where he talks about , you know, he's he game of thrones, where he talks about, you know, he's he is so consumed by hatred for her. you know, he he is kept awake at night thinking about he night thinking about how he wants to be driven through wants her to be driven through the england naked and the streets of england naked and pelted with excrement. yes. which is what happens . cersei which is what happens. cersei lannister in game of thrones . i lannister in game of thrones. i know this show very well and people are crying shame and shouting shame at that of shouting shame at that kind of thing. so, know , the thing. so, you know, the hyperbole is the point actually.

i often wonder this kind of i often wonder with this kind of stuff, maybe nicholas stuff, i think maybe nicholas sturgeon too far. but sturgeon a step too far. but i understand the rest of it. you know, when you go that far. yeah. actually becomes less yeah. it actually becomes less offensive way, i think offensive in a way, i think because extreme. so because it's so extreme. and so therefore the absurdity becomes obvious. you would obvious. right. well, you would that even if you didn't it funny you would at least credit clarkson with at least trying make a joke. yeah. yeah but we live in a very humourless time . live in a very humourless time. so immediately everyone on twitter took it upon themselves to this was misogynistic. to say this was misogynistic. yeah, racist. and then yeah, this was racist. and then even stepped up a notch where you had certain bbc presenters like chris packham say that this article was a hate crime and if there's any justice clarkson should be jailed. and the sun newspaper should be shut down. and then even worse was group of mps wrote an open letter essentially on the sun to take a definitive to ensure nothing like this is ever published again. wow. and that's where we go from . okay. you know, let's go from. okay. you know, let's we can disagree with the

clarkson column . we can say what clarkson column. we can say what we like about the cox economy. yes. you can use hyperbole return. you can say you want to parade clarkson through the streets and having excrement. yeah, if you like. then yeah, if you like. but then you're censorship. you're talking about censorship. then talking mps thinking then you're talking mps thinking it's to edit the it's their right to edit the news. and that puts us in a very dangerous place. so this sort dangerous place. so this is sort of surprising why can't of surprising to me. why can't we a society where we live in a society where people outrageous people can say outrageous things? offensive things? they want offensive things? they want offensive things if they want, and people can well, i find that can say, well, i find that really and this really or outrageous. and this is and criticise in return. is why and criticise in return. that's because that's a good system because i mean gets to say what mean everyone gets to say what they why do i have to call they want. why do i have to call for censorship? well. well, exactly. know, the to exactly. you know, the answer to bad speech always more bad speech is always more speech. speech speech. free speech is the counter yeah. and, counter to it. and yeah. and, you know, everyone has a right to with clarkson. and to disagree with clarkson. and if stand up for if you want to stand up for meghan that's you know. of meghan that's you know. yeah, of course. that's he's so course. that's why he's so progressive. he's progressive. i mean, he's apologised time. we do. i apologised this time. we do. i think we've got the text of his apology here, very apology here, but it's very interesting actually interesting that he actually gave normally gave that apology when normally he that. gave that apology when normally he that . he's made he doesn't do that. he's made a number tweet apology. he number of his tweet apology. he says, rather put foot in

says, i've rather put my foot in it. in a column i wrote about making, i made a clumsy reference to a scene in game of thrones this down badly thrones this gone down badly with many people. i'm with a great many people. i'm horrified, of course. horrified, too, of course. so much shall be more much hurt and i shall be more careful future. does not careful in future. that does not sound jeremy clarkson. he sound like jeremy clarkson. he hasn't apologised for jokes that are more extreme in the are even more extreme in the past. i think our past. so what's i think our culture become lot more culture has become a lot more censorious. i mean think censorious. i mean if you think about of you know, about some of the, you know, clarkson controversies, you know, was know, top gear when he was talking i it was on the talking about i it was on the one show actually you know email saying talking about shooting striking miners. yes talks about truck murdering truck drivers, murdering prostitutes you prostitutes on top gear, you know, these kinds know, making these kinds outrageous and they caused outrageous jokes and they caused a bit of a controversy but he didn't feel the need to apologise . that wasn't people apologise. that wasn't people calling be arrested. calling for him to be arrested. no. what has happened. and no. so what has happened. and why is this happened so . well, why is this happened so. well, there's factor that there's another factor is that it's meghan well, who is it's meghan as well, who is basically kind of untouchable. is almost like a royal of is this almost like a royal of old really ? you know, back in old really? you know, back in the back, in the back in the day, you couldn't the king in the newspaper now it seems you

don't really allow to, meghan. i mean, not just clarkson mean, it's not just clarkson who's, you know, he hasn't lost his job or anything yet. but there calls for him to be there are calls for him to be sacked but if you sacked and arrested but if you think it, piers morgan think about it, piers morgan was kicked morning britain kicked off good morning britain because. he said he didn't believe, believe a of believe, i believe a word of meghan's interview with oprah winfrey. the head winfrey. yes, we lost the head of society of editors had to of the society of editors had to resign that interview resign after that interview because he stood up for the press coverage saying wasn't press coverage saying it wasn't racist . that's a really racist. that's a really interesting point when you mention these mention the press and these people who pushing now to people who are pushing now to send to the press as a result of this. so that, again, seem to be a forward. again, back a step forward. again, i go back to this point criticise the press. only like, but this press. yeah. only like, but this is different thing. is a slightly different thing. i think always been this think there's always been this kind of undercurrent of anti press feeling this particularly against tabloids . i mean we against the tabloids. i mean we saw that really probably the high that was the high point of that was the leveson you we leveson inquiry and you know, we came very close to having a state backed press regulator in britain's a while there was a law on the statute that was going to strong arm newspapers into signing up to an official,

you know, state regulator with a royal charter and all these kind of, you know, archaic things. and they would have been fined and they have know, and they have you know, companies would basically companies would have basically had to pay the losses of anyone who complained , things like who complained, things like that. it would have been a disaster press reason. we disaster for press reason. we very that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi think that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi think a that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi think a lot that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi think a lot of that. yes disaster for press reason. we veryi think a lot of people, yes and i think a lot of people, ironically, call ironically, would call themselves liberals , think that themselves liberals, think that it be the job of the it should be the job of the state to tell the press what it can and can't print. i mean, it's interesting with levison it because that axe, there was because with that axe, there was always rich always the possibility rich people to prevent people would be able to prevent the from criticising which the press from criticising which is dreadful there are is a dreadful but there are elements that seemed elements of that that seemed quite as if quite reasonable such as if press make a store print story thatis press make a store print story that is false that they would have then print the retraction in the same place on the front cover in the same site. that seems like a reasonable thing. that's reasonable. seems like a reasonable thing. thatyou reasonable. seems like a reasonable thing. thatyou know, reasonable. seems like a reasonable thing. thatyou know, obviously,|ble. seems like a reasonable thing. thatyou know, obviously, there and you know, obviously, there were elements were were other elements that were the phone hacking scandal, which was people were was a crime, and people were taking law arrested for it. taking the law arrested for it. so that didn't necessarily call for government for more government intervention. but i think intervention. yes, but i think there is this of long

there is this kind of long running prejudice about the tabloids in particular, their readers? yeah. there's this idea that, you know , a lot of the that, you know, a lot of the kind of mp and stuff we're talking about the clarkson's column coming in a context of an epidemic violence women epidemic of violence women and girls sadiq khan said girls right sadiq khan said words have consequences is about this column the implication to be that you know your average sun is just one jeremy clarkson away a column away from, you know, assaulting a woman. where's because where's that come from? because it's not true. it not it's simply not true. it is not the that jeremy carson's the case that jeremy carson's column will have resulted in rise of violence. i mean, they made the same case when johnson made the same case when johnson made the same case when johnson made the joke about muslim women wearing burka and letterboxes. they hate crimes they said that the hate crimes escalated march. or i come escalated this march. or i come into 300% and those into this about 300% and those because completely because were completely debunked when actually analysed when they were actually analysed . true that these kind . it's not true that these kind of outrageous ever lead of outrageous comments ever lead to . no, not true. to violence. no, it's not true. it's it's just, you know, it's all it's just, you know, it's it's prejudice . it's it's just it's prejudice. it's just it's saying that, you know, there people out there, there are 60 people out there, people read the tabloids. people that read the tabloids. they're see. they they're monkey see. do they hean they're monkey see. do they hear, you know , or you hear this

hear, you know, or you hear this phrase, it's dog whistle all phrase, it's a dog whistle all the around racism or the time around racism or misogyny. you know , who are the misogyny. you know, who are the dogs? yes, right. they're talking about the great british public. it does strike me as public. but it does strike me as odd he apologise. and odd that he apologise. and i think does have a chilling think it does have a chilling effect people, other effect on other people, other people to write people who are going to write a certain does it affect certain way. and does it affect you some columnists are you know, some columnists are quite specific and quite robust . there's appeal to , you . and there's an appeal to, you know, if you think of people like coming like julie burchill coming olalia of it's to olalia these kind of it's fun to read that kind of personality, but what happen to those but what will happen to those sorts things? absolutely. sorts of things? absolutely. i think it will have a chilling effect. you know, the having the threat or threat of intervention or regular . threat of intervention or regular. yeah. is you know that's something weighs very heavily on editors minds and it's a good reminder that the press you know, obviously the press you know, obviously the press does some brilliant work in exposing corruption and, you know, exposing wrongdoing and things like that. and that's all very important. but there's also another the press which another side to the press which just fun things you just making fun of things you throwing excrement at celebrities, they just everyone's and yeah. and you

know that part of it you do want to have a spot you know. scarborough and sparky commentariat and a live leak kind of about all kinds of issues. you know, it doesn't all have to be high minded and sometimes boring. and what about this idea hate? i mean, you mentioned chris packham talking about hate crime, about how this is a hate crime, but as human beings but why as human beings shouldn't we be allowed to hate ? well, should be allowed to ? well, we should be allowed to hate to hate and we be allowed to express our hatred for and things we fit. i think what's things as we fit. i think what's happened with this cox and column is because it's about meghan markle and it's there's a kind of trend where anyone criticises meghan markle . criticises meghan markle. they're instantly derided as either racist or misogynist. yes. you know, that is yes. and you know, that is a kind of unacceptable form of hate that i don't think newspapers would want to print anyway, even if it, you know, they should be allowed to. but i don't think to. wouldn't they should be allowed to. but i d0|commercial to. wouldn't they should be allowed to. but i d0|commercialifto. wouldn't they should be allowed to. but i d0|commercial if i». wouldn't they should be allowed to. but i d0|commercial if i would uldn't they should be allowed to. but i d0|commercial if i would be.1't be commercial if i would be. yeah, we live in a society where people like people tend people don't like kind thing. so there's kind of thing. so there's a forever kind of expansion of what to the meaning of what it means to the meaning of hate or hate. so as soon hate speech or hate. so as soon as you say, oh, let's ban hate

speech, quickly, some quite speech, then quickly, some quite innocuous end up getting caught up. no one knows up. well, because no one knows what they? no one what it means, do they? no one really what means. really knows what hate means. even the i think it's the even even the i think it's the european convention on human rights tried to define hate rights have tried to define hate speech the best they can speech and the best they can come with speech that is come up with a speech that is hateful. yeah. so it's completely, it's completely, totally it's completely in the eye of the beholder. completely beholder. it's completely subject if it's just a kind subject. if so, it's just a kind recipe for endless censorship . recipe for endless censorship. so what will change all of this? will it just be when people when they for they do cause offence for whatever which whatever reason, which is inevitable beings, inevitable because human beings, is just that they need to is it just that they need to stop apologising for it? yeah, i think that would help. but i also i think it would help if people, more stood up for people, more people stood up for speech when there's offensive speech when there's an offensive column, stand up column, people should stand up for someone's to make that for someone's right to make that point , even for someone's right to make that point, even if even if selves are offended. right, exactly. even offended, even even if they're offended, even if mean, it's if they disagree i mean, it's you've fight the freedom you've got to fight the freedom of thought that you hate of the thought that you hate i mean, it's, you know, stalin believed for free speech for the ideas he liked yeah. that's the test of whether really believe in speech. fraser thanks so

in free speech. fraser thanks so much joining me today. much for joining me today. really. having really. thanks so much having me. after the break me. thank you. after the break on free speech nation, a faculty member been from a us member been fired from a us university sharing university for sharing a mediaeval painting of the islamic mohammed . we'll islamic prophet mohammed. we'll be to the organisation be speaking to the organisation , attempting to him , attempting to get him reinstated . see him .

in three. welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me andrew doyle. later in the show, i'm going to be turning agony. uncle with the help of my wonderful panel, leo kearse and schaefer. and kearse and louis schaefer. and we're help you to deal we're going to help you to deal with your unfiltered dilemmas. so email us with all so please do email us with all of your problems to gb news at. we're going to do our best to solve your problems now . if you solve your problems now. if you study the history of art , you study the history of art, you might expect to come across a mediaeval painting or two. so you'll be to hear that doing so got a faculty fired in the

united states. the professor was accused of islamophobia after showing a painting of mohammed with the associate vice president of inclusive excellence . that's actually a excellence. that's actually a thing declaring it undeniably inconsiderate , disrespectful and inconsiderate, disrespectful and islamophobic. inconsiderate, disrespectful and islamophobic . the 14th century islamophobic. the 14th century persian masterpiece is often taughtin persian masterpiece is often taught in islamic art history classes at universities across the world for its historical and cultural importance. but some muslims considered depictions of their prophet to be . so i want their prophet to be. so i want to speak now to a campaigner from fire, the foundation for individual rights education, alex mori. alex, thank you for joining me tonight. i just want to ask you first and foremost about this, professor. i we don't know the name of the professor but this was a course which included an element on the history of islamic art. and this is a significant piece. is that correct . that's right. and it's correct. that's right. and it's a pretty standard art history exercise to be able to bring up ancient depictions of a variety of types of art and have students consider discuss them

in class. and of course, there's great debate here even among current muslims about whether or not the depiction of the prophet muhammad is indeed offensive. some disagree with that. and this would be a situation where it would be perfect for a discussion in an art history class about whether or not this is this is appropriate to show and to have students discuss the issue . well, i would have issue. well, i would have thought that showing the image is a no brainer, that, of course, when you're studying islamic want to see islamic art, you want to see elements of islamic art. and if it sparks a conversation about the of is permitted, the limits of what is permitted, permissible then permissible in that faith, then that's interesting from an academic perspective. why have people now prioritised the feeling, subjective feeling of offence over academic rigour? well, that's a great and troubling and one that we talk about every day. it fires or what appears to have happened here is that a student, muslim student who disagreed with viewing the prophet muhammad even after it effectively

trigger warning by the professor saying, i'm to show this if you don't want to look, you can look away . administrators jumped away. administrators jumped right in once the student complained and said i feel like this seeing this picture is islamophobic. and instead of for what we can tell going through due process or looking at their own policies, which you know, at this university, they say we respect free speech, even unsaid chilling or unpopular ideas can be discussed. they said we're not renewing this professor. it's the students deeply held religious beliefs should have superseded academic freedom. now, this is, you know, at hamilton university hamline university, i believe , university, i believe, implemented this . but they they implemented this. but they they have a i mean, the person who's criticised them is the a vice president of inclusive excellence. is that what is . is excellence. is that what is. is that a department? well, at many universities and colleges days, hamline is a small liberal arts

college in minnesota. it's got about 3000 undergraduate and graduate students at many colleges like it. there are sort of these diversity administrator ers who make sure that students feel welcome campus, that there are not things like discrimination and harassment going on. but increasingly, what we are seeing is that these admins traitors who get paid a lot of money and sometimes we do. question what exactly is that they do? frequently we see these administrators taking complaints from students that are premised solely on protected expression, protected by the college's policies and, treating it as if it's legally actionable discrimination or and sort of having these knee jerk reactions. get the professor campus, get the student suspended without an ounce of due process or even following college's own policies . so we college's own policies. so we definitely have seen a of these types of administrators as universities quite rightly make

attempts to, you know , give attempts to, you know, give resources to students who have traditionally been underserved for examples, universities can certainly that but they have to stop when it comes to infringing others basic rights. well, this is what i find interesting about that, because obviously racial discrimination instance is already illegal. i don't see why you need someone in some kind of invented post to enforce that, because the law enforces that. what it strikes me is that a lot of these are equity in diversity and officers are and inclusion officers are stepping and stepping over the line and actually invading academic actually invading the academic freedom, sort of trying to police what can be taught in the classroom and surely that is antithetical to the ethos of a university ? absolutely. i mean , university? absolutely. i mean, academic freedom is an incredibly important corollary of free expression . and many, of free expression. and many, you know, in the us. we have the first amendment. so it pubuc the first amendment. so it public colleges, they must respect people's freedom of expression at private colleges like hamline. expression at private colleges like hamline . they can choose like hamline. they can choose what they elevate as their most

important principles . and this important principles. and this one chooses to say , we care one chooses to say, we care about free expression. we care about free expression. we care about academic freedom . but then about academic freedom. but then they don't follow through . as they don't follow through. as soon as a student complains, as soon as a student complains, as soon as a student complains, as soon as it gets traction on twitter, that sort of thing. administre these days are very ad to any type of controversy and find it much more advantageous . protect their advantageous. protect their college brand. you know, it's a business rather than respect that one faculty members, right . or that one student's right. but of course, there are downstream consequences for free speech and academic freedom. now at fire, alex, you obviously you work a lot in these issues relating to education. but can i ask you from your experience on the students getting annoyed about this? i mean, if i if i had paid an awful lot of money to be educated, a university and suddenly administrator suddenly some administrator was stepping me that to stepping in to tell me that to protect from being offended protect me from being offended by certain aspects of the course , course be furious and , of course i'd be furious and i'd complain about the individual. is that happening at

all? oh, we now some students certainly have free expression on their radar. they want to debate these topics, even if they disagree with someone who might show of depiction of the prophet muhammad or whatever they want to have it out with they want to have it out with the professor and have that discussion because that's what college university is about. college and university is about. now, we have seen in about now, what we have seen in about the last ten years is this huge upfickin the last ten years is this huge uptick in many asking uptick in many students asking for not freedom of speech, but freedom from speech , the speech freedom from speech, the speech that they dislike . there's a lot that they dislike. there's a lot of research of theories into why that might be, including that, you know, they've been sort of coddled from birth by their parents, always having a parent stepping in when they approach they dislike. and now they're at and that parental figure is an administrator the head of diversity and inclusion are inclusive excellence and they're asking that person to remove this on comfortable speech or or you know art piece out of their way. so that they don't have to

deal with those emotions. and of course , our position at fire is course, our position at fire is that this is an incredibly wrong headed opinion. and that instead students should be taught and have administrators and faculty reinforce the fact that students strong, they can have these discussions . they can disagree discussions. they can disagree with people. of course, if they're being targeted in by discrimination and harassment like you said, those laws are already on books. and, of course, colleges and universities should take action . there is actionable discrimination , harassment. but discrimination, harassment. but when someone in an art history course is showing a painting , course is showing a painting, that ain't it. alex we don't have much time at all. so very quickly, would you be able to tell us you're presumably supporting this academic? who's been fired? what what are the chances he or she will be reinstated, oh, well, it's incredibly difficult because this particular professor is an adjunct, which means they don't have tenure protections which protect of full time faculty members . so i protect of full time faculty members. so i am hopeful we have seen it happen in the past where

an adjunct is reinstated , but an adjunct is reinstated, but it's it can be rare it's also we're hopeful that this person will come forward tell who they are and fight for their rights . are and fight for their rights. adjuncts are an incredibly positions because they don't want to cause trouble they live under the poverty line many of them in the us so they want that next job. they don't want to be a troublemaker. but we hope that this person will come forward and fight for their rights and the rights of other adjuncts to have academic in the have academic freedom in the classroom want it classroom. and we want it tomorrow. thanks much for tomorrow. thanks very much for joining . really joining me tonight. really appreciate did appreciate it. and we did approach university for approach hamline university for comment received no comment and we received no response. after the break, we be discussing decolonisation in maths as top academics warn the government that new guidance risks politicising the subject. one of those professors joins me next. see you in 3 minutes.

welcome back to free speech

nation. with me, andrew doyle top academics have warned the government that new guidance for universities risks politicising the subject of mathematics for maths degrees. professors have to explain how they are presenting a multicultural and decolonised view of the subject. the academic sent a joint letter seen by gb news that such guidance risks politicising the subject of mathematics and a skewed perspective on its history and infringes on the academic of mathematicians to teach their subject according to their best professional judgement. one of the dozen professors who put their name to the is professor jane houghton the is professorjane houghton from the department of statistics at the university of warwick, she joins me now . warwick, and she joins me now. professor houghton, very professor houghton, thanks very much can ask much forjoining me. can i ask first and foremost about this nofion first and foremost about this notion of because , you know, i notion of because, you know, i understand that this came in largely through the humanities literature, that kind of subject, the social sciences, but surely mathematics and science, these things should be immune to those other culture

concerns . well, yes , that's concerns. well, yes, that's interesting. i mean, this time next week, i'll be in cameroon and africa at the african institute of mathematical sciences with , 60 students from sciences with, 60 students from all over africa . my 11th time of all over africa. my 11th time of going out to volunteer to teach that. and when i was there in january 22, i watched something about critical race theory up by nonh about critical race theory up by north american liberals and frankly the were appalled . frankly the were appalled. they're not interested becoming a colony you know succumbing to cultural imperial ism from north american liberals . they want to american liberals. they want to learn mathematics . and those of learn mathematics. and those of us who are mathematicians on of international subjects . can i international subjects. can i ask you to what extent do mathematicians this country feel under pressure to accommodate these palpably ideological ideas within their subject ? very much within their subject? very much so. i mean, i, i'm willing to speak out , so. i mean, i, i'm willing to speak out, but very so. i mean, i, i'm willing to

speak out , but very few of my speak out, but very few of my colleagues are and they will send me emails and thank me for speaking out, but send me emails and thank me for speaking out , but they will not speaking out, but they will not allow them so to be identified and i'm talking about colleagues , senior managers, professors i.t. staff, clean gardeners . i.t. staff, clean gardeners. they know i'll speak out. their report by this behaviour and other issues coming from this nonh other issues coming from this north american liberal imperialism . professor so the imperialism. professor so the conclusion . can i ask you conclusion. can i ask you specifically what it they're asking you to do exactly. i mean, i've seen, for instance, people saying that in engineering for instance when you're teaching about isaac newton , you should discuss his newton, you should discuss his problematic on race as though that was in way relevant to the law of motion . what they law of motion. what are they specifically asking mathematicians to do in courses? well they're not actually even asking mathematicians to have an intelligent intellectual discussion. they're asking us propagate their ideas . for propagate their ideas. for example , they will have

example, they will have particular views on, say, ravichandran or , you know , ravichandran or, you know, statistics. one of the things we teach is the real black hole theorem zeros and indian david black holes in african—american. but we don't spend our time focusing on that. we focus on the mathematics . and there's a the mathematics. and there's a time and place for everything. as aristotle pointed out . you as aristotle pointed out. you don't evaluate mathematics by the standards of poetry or poetry, both of mathematics and. what surprises me, you know, i'm not a historian. i'm not a philosopher. there's not a historian. i'm not a philosopher . there's the sheer philosopher. there's the sheer ignorance of so much of what these people propose. and they're locked and it's intellectually lazy . so you intellectually lazy. so you can't ask questions like . how can't ask questions like. how how come critical race theory says that being white is an absolutely dreadful thing ? you absolutely dreadful thing? you can't say you don't have these. you are irredeemably . but if you are irredeemably. but if you're man, you can become a woman just by saying so. why are

these two completely, thoroughly genetic ? only physically centred genetic? only physically centred properties treated so differently? but of course, i know perfectly well that i am likely to get a whole lot of abuse for even raising the. well it's difficult to. just think that you protected that identity politics, professor houghton, that's come into these question when of course identity politics has very little to do with mathematics . i has very little to do with mathematics. i mean, has very little to do with mathematics . i mean, surely has very little to do with mathematics. i mean, surely in mathematics. i mean, surely in mathematics the answer either right or wrong. i mean, i know i don't have any expertise in this area. you can you can correct me if wrong about that. yes. if i'm wrong about that. yes. and makes mathematics very and that makes mathematics very unpopular . we've had i've had to unpopular. we've had i've had to deal with people trying to teach us in teaching them as never tell a student they've got the right answer or the wrong. to which i'll say, you're a hypocrite . we wouldn't be hypocrite. we wouldn't be talking to one another using. they couldn't do a using without a lot of people things very,

very precisely. right. and engineering and mathematics . so engineering and mathematics. so is this quite commonplace the idea that students not be told that they are wrong ? how can that they are wrong? how can they possibly improve? yes, i am to both training ph.d. they possibly improve? yes, i am to both training phd. students as teachers and junior as teachers and that used to be the standard rhetoric from social scientists . you must never tell scientists. you must never tell the mature learner knows no right answer. but does this not punch a nice students needlessly? i mean, on the students annoyed at being patronised in this way. yes when i put up, i put up an article saying debate on gender dysphoria is being silenced. the equality officer stood up a manager, to test sound of outrage and said , put it on a outrage and said, put it on a nofice outrage and said, put it on a notice board where students might suit . so i asked the phd might suit. so i asked the phd students. it was during the long what they thought of this and

they said thank you very much for talking. we are a poor old school at the university of warwick, which is not particularly bad. have a very good vice chancellor of the university of warwick to discuss a topic which is the subject of a topic which is the subject of a public consultation. we have to go into an office and lock the doors and whisper, why is this what the university of warwick is offering us? well, to my professors and that at least reassuring that some of the students are not putting up with this . students are not putting up with this. thought and thank you so much for joining this. thought and thank you so much forjoining me in explaining this bizarre situation tonight. i really appreciate it. well i don't know what to make of this, leo. i'm getting a bit sick of it, to be honest. yeah decolonising maths one plus one equals two. i mean, i i think we have to i think, i think we have to accept civilisation accept that western civilisation is we're not allowed is over. if we're not allowed to get maths right any more, you know, we're going to, we're going see falling. this going to see falling. if this guy to collapse. guy bridges going to collapse. this a this is absolute this is a this is an absolute nonsense. how can maths maths is the science. just the purest science. it's just you. is it

you. it is universal is it doesn't. all right. you know the mathematician ones who invent a sum , whatever maths is made out sum, whatever maths is made out of, like they can belong a certain, you know, gender or whatever . but maths itself is, whatever. but maths itself is, is a pure science . what was so is a pure science. what was so interesting about what professor hoskin was saying, that, you know, what? for start know, for what? for start students this. they know, for what? for start studeit's this. they know, for what? for start stude it's nonsense. this. they know, for what? for start studeit's nonsense. but they know, for what? for start studeit's nonsense. but also think it's nonsense. but also african people accept that black people countries saying people in other countries saying this is nonsense, this is a form of imperialism this of imperialism and pushing this idea so isn't this idea ideas on us. so isn't this is it's mad. it is mad considering that math or as you call it maths is one of those colonial subjects ever which is we use arabic numerals do and we included the number of the letters whatever the number zero which we didn't have before the masters not come from a white european background that's not not it not its origins this idea that this is imperialism. i said, wrong. i said, it said, get it wrong. i said, it isn't it. yeah, i know what you meant. yeah, we know what meant. yeah, we all know what you there's a lot of you mean. there's a lot of problematic numbers that think problematic numbers that i think need eliminated from the need to be eliminated from the number there's, number alphabet. so there's, there's which, looks

there's four which, which looks like stepping, like it's goose stepping, there's five which is half a swastika . there's e, there's swastika. there's e, there's e that looks like a fat woman, you know, these are all sort of body positive, beautiful anti size women . yeah. so we should women. yeah. so we should decolonise maths as well. absolutely. call colour, just be left with like three numbers and you've got to do the sums you've got to do all the sums with him and, and it's used with him and, and it's been used to me bankrupt numbers. to make me bankrupt numbers. well i just i'm going to solve this tonight, but honestly the more these things happen, i'm just getting so sick of it. anyway, in the next hour. barbados targets hollywood . barbados targets hollywood. benedict as benedict cumberbatch as campaigners demand reparations. the wealthy donor who was withdrawing the university funding to help fight for free speech and also i'll be talking to the man who is planning to sue the nhs over trans surgery that typically regrets. that's richie herron . also be joined by richie herron. also be joined by karabell , who is another karabell, who is another detransition and that's a story that doesn't get much news coverage. when we're going to be talking about that here on free speech nation. don't go away.

we'll be back in just few minutes .

plenty more still to come on. free speech nation this week. but first, let's get a news update. addison . thanks, andrew. update. addison. thanks, andrew. here's the latest from the gb newsroom. pope francis has paid his respects to his predecessor whilst addressing worshippers at the vatican. pope benedict . the the vatican. pope benedict. the 16th died within vatican at the age of 95. tomorrow morning his body will be brought to st basilica where people will be able to pay their respects. he will lie in state for three days until his funeral on the 5th of january. celebration is to mark the start of 2023. took place across country last night with more than 100,000 gathering in

central london alone to watch the fireworks . the fireworks. london's mayor says the 12 minute display, which was the first since the start of the pandemic, is the biggest in europe. sold show featured a tribute to the late queen. it also highlighted the lionesses euros win and showed solidarity with . ukraine well, in his new with. ukraine well, in his new year message to ukraine, president volodymyr zelenskyy said he hopes the war with russia will end in 2023. he spoke as missiles rained down in around the capital kyiv ukraine's armed forces say russia launched more than 31 missiles and 12 strikes across the country overnight. curfews ranging from 7 pm. to midnight made celebrations . the start of made celebrations. the start of the new year impossible in pubuc the new year impossible in public spaces . the archbishop of public spaces. the archbishop of canterbury is urging the

government to tackle what he calls the country's broken social care system . justin welby social care system. justin welby used his year message to say care homes struggling to cover energy bills and retain staff. he's called on everyone to rise to . the challenge of repairing to. the challenge of repairing the present system. the government says social was made a priority in last month's budget, pledging a priority in last month's budget, pledgin g £7.5 billion in budget, pledging £7.5 billion in support over the next two years. a number of migrants , almost a number of migrants, almost 46,000, crossed the english channel to the uk last year. that's 60% higher than the figure for 2021. last crossings of 2022 took place on christmas day when 90 people made that journey from on to small boats . journey from on to small boats. the prime minister, rishi sunak , has promised to bring in laws this year to make it clear to those who enter the country illegally that they be allowed to stay . and today. more than to stay. and today. more than 4600 bus routes across england have fares capped at £2 for a

single trip. more than 130 operators outside of london joined the scheme, which will last until the end of march. the cap is being paid for with taxpayers money, £60 million worth from a government fund . worth from a government fund. we're on tv online and on tv plus radio. this is gb news. back now to free speech nation . back now to free speech nation. thanks so let's get some more questions from our viewers. our first question is from jason. and jason says , are trigger and jason says, are trigger warnings ruining literature? so a descendant of legendary novelist sir walter scott criticised a university decision to slap trigger warnings on his historic works and branded them cowardly. the celebrated scotti sh cowardly. the celebrated scottish writer who penned his epic ivanhoe in 1819 has seen his work called disturb king by academics at the university of warwick because of its treatment

of racial, which includes black slaves and captives, who, along with other characters in the work, are prejudiced against jews. well, what do you think of this again, similar to this? again, this is similar to the alfred lord tennyson story. every university is sort of doing a similar thing at this point. for sir walter scott, i mean, depictions people mean, his depictions of people i don't think are particularly problematic. have you read them? no, of course not. and i've seen die hard . and i've seen die die hard. and i've seen die hard, too . and die hard three. hard, too. and die hard three. but i haven't read sort but i haven't read any sort of walter scott. but but yeah, this is i mean, sort of stuff. is i mean, this sort of stuff. i think people just need to lose their fear of being seen with this book. this, this racist written the front cover . just written on the front cover. just once, everybody says, look, i don't care. and just picks up the book and sees the sticker saying, you know, race is problematic . see it as, you problematic. see it as, you know, peer pressure or advisory. yeah lyrics the thing that yeah it lyrics the thing that shows that is and is good. this is what i find about an 1819 for goodness sake. but you know that when you slap a trigger warning on work art or in a book, your on a work art or in a book, your effect this book is

effect is saying this book is dangerous. like these words could you . and that that could hurt you. and that that isn't censorship, but it's a sort of step towards censorship because and because start to mistrust and words. isn't that an issue ? no. words. isn't that an issue? no. why? because like. like leo said, it's it tells people something cool is going to inside this. states saying this is going to be something exciting and then you go in and isuppose exciting and then you go in and i suppose it's a similar kind of thing to, you know, the old loeb editions of and roman ancient text and you've got, you know, the jewel editions, you've got the jewel editions, you've got the english translation on one side and the original greek the other they used other or whatever. and they used to translate except to just translate it all except for rude which they if for the rude bits, which they if it was in greek, they'd put into latin or vice versa. right. so you easily spot which it you could easily spot which it was through english was scanning through the english translation stuff translation where the rude stuff was. we used to was. and that's how we used to do it. so i mean, that's, it's a similar kind of thing. is it attention to things that you shouldn't drawing attention attention to things that you shouldn'tokay.'awing attention attention to things that you shouldn'tokay. we're attention attention to things that you shouldn'tokay. we're going:ion attention to things that you shouldn'tokay. we're going tor to? yeah okay. we're going to move question now. move on to another question now. this is from lisa. lisa has this one is from lisa. lisa has emailed in saying, is the

scottish government endangering children? what we've children? okay, so what we've been quite lot been covering this quite a lot on this channel, is about on this channel, which is about nicola new nicola sturgeon's new transgender reforms and transgender law reforms and a group have group of female employees have now this could now pointed out that this could endanger women and girls. i mean, they're not wrong, are they, they're not wrong they, leo? no, they're not wrong at you know, at all. and already, you know, this mp have shown the they really care about children's welfare . i'm not just talking welfare. i'm not just talking about, you know, the parlous state of scottish health and education, but they're . education, but they're. previously they had the name person site which, which took the children away from parents, took the duty of care, away from parents and handed it to the state. and, you know, that didn't go through though. it did. it went through, but it was repealed end. then , repealed at the end. and then, you know, they've also skelton's been a hotbed for gender ideology . so been a hotbed for gender ideology. so this 94 clinic in glasgow has which is a gender clinic because there's been treating children as young as nine and with puberty blockers. so these are these this isn't therapy or you just ideas therapy or you know just ideas and talking. this is actual drugs going nine year old children. this clinic is , the

children. this clinic is, the equivalent the tavistock in equivalent of the tavistock in london, course has had london, which, of course has had to yeah right. but to close down. yeah right. but why? well, i know the why? why? well, i know the answer to this. but why are they not getting the same sort of scrutiny? know the scrutiny? do you know the answer? do. it's answer? i do. i think it's because the snp support that ideology. yeah. it's i it's ideology. yeah. it's i mean it's a in scotland a one party state in scotland and mean, there's not and so, i mean, there's not there's not the sort of scrutiny and opposition mean, media and opposition i mean, the media companies in scotland are dependent advert replaced dependent on an advert replaced by the snp. so they're not to question anything. the snp. this is bad news and isn't particularly bad news that the government, the snp in scotland has been completely ignoring the kind that nia is kind of concerns that nia is raising like nicholas raising here. it's like nicholas sturgeon has basically said to all those feminists who've been campaigning hollyrood campaigning outside of hollyrood , arguments no merit. , your arguments have no merit. i mean, that's actually literally what she said. well, as spoken times , this as we've spoken many times, this is problem here is you will is the problem here is you will own nothing . but you'll be own nothing. but you'll be happy. and part of the happiness is respecting the individual rights . and that takes rights. and that takes precedence over everything . so precedence over everything. so what about the individual rights of women? that obviously the

entire of a person to say they're a woman to be a man to say he's a woman trumps that. why? why? because because we will have nothing. so they can say to somebody. say, you know what? you'll you won't have a family. you won't have you won't have a house or a car. you will be allowed to do what you want. so the patriarchy is back. the other thing, women did a nice couple of of but the couple of decades of but the patriarchy back and you know patriarchy is back and you know if a man wins the women's space, you can just see he's he's a woman, know, and all this woman, you know, and all this stuff, you know, the essence of being a woman can just be it. and get those and i totally get those transgender but this transgender women. but this isn't women. isn't about transgender women. this the to self this is about the right to self identify. so, know, you identify. so, you know, you don't effort in. you don't put any effort in. you just, you just declare this just, you see, just declare this is an affront to actual transgender the women who, you know, at get , you know, know, at least get, you know, put effort. do have to put some effort. we do have to move next question move on. our next question is from annette emailed from annette. annette is emailed in are there better in and said, are there better times for , britain? now times ahead for, britain? now i'm to go out on a limb here and

assume this is to do with rishi sunak's new year's masterplan . sunak's new year's masterplan. we actually discussed on the headliners last night. he made this speech, you know how there are better times ahead about how he's going kickstart he's going to kickstart britain's recovery and he says he's working flat out to make this happen. this sort of projecting that by the end of 2023, jeremy hunt changes the budget cuts, etc. since the budget. it means that inflation will go below double digits. it means we'll be back on track. but really, can this happen when we have this global economic situation? well, don't think situation? well, i don't think it's global situation it's global economic situation that's this causing this entirely. i mean, the western governments or the british government has just lost any interest in having, you know, economic growth. well, they wanted that. oh, let's trust wall. so they got rid of her. they might leave the poster. but you have growth. you need lower taxes because high taxes means that is going into the that money is going into the government the government government and the government spending is spending and the government is terrible spending money. they terrible at spending money. they waste equality. terrible at spending money. they wastinclusion equality.

terrible at spending money. they wastinclusion departmentity. terrible at spending money. they wastinclusion department on that the inclusion department on that on that list, none of it's productive. i mean. yes. okay. so let's take you're talking about we need taxes in about we need lower taxes in order to stimulate economic growth. that's that growth. and that's what that was. wasn't the kwasi was. this wasn't the kwasi kwarteng saying. but kwarteng was saying. yeah but they the markets. it they did spook the markets. it did like the pound did look like the pound plummeted, the value of the pound plummeted. they. it pound plummeted. so they. is it actually implement actually possible to implement the policies you're the kind of policies you're asking what they asking for? well, what they didn't announce spending didn't do was announce spending cuts along the tax cuts, cuts to go along the tax cuts, because this was unfunded tax cuts, which means there's going to huge debt and to be a huge debt burden and long term, could britain service its debt. and so there were flaws mini budget . yeah, flaws in the mini budget. yeah, although decades although a little for decades we've been beyond we've been we've been way beyond our and the markets have our means and the markets have been know why been fine with i don't know why they this one moment they picked this one moment to turn on a dime. you're an economic expert. let me ask, what you think about this? what do you think about this? i think there's no hope think there's no for hope britain. think britain. basically, i think the because a we because we haven't had a we britain had the britain hasn't had the revolution they need to revolution that they need to have we're the tory is have where we're the tory is divided is basically taken over and they get rid of people. you know, i think, you know, you're being flippant maybe, but i think sort of onto something

that, you know, think we need that, you know, i think we need to we need situation to break to we need a situation to break the party system that we the two party system that we need. to. we need need. we need to. we need proportional representation. let's get a smaller party in there, it's coalition. there, even if it's a coalition. that's unless we need that's my view. unless we need if parties that actually if we need parties that actually stand the stand for something that the people need true. every people want, we need true. every party as a coalition. you party is as a coalition. you don't everything that don't agree with everything that they but i don't know they believe, but i don't know what they stand for. know what? i know what labour stuff. i don't know what labour stuff. i don't know what labour stuff. i what the tories i don't know what the tories stand yeah, i'm politically stand for. yeah, i'm politically homeless. right. because they haven't revolution haven't had this revolution which they need to have, they need like, like leo says, need to like, like leo says, they to party that they need to have a party that says against printing and says we're against printing and wasting we're wasting money and we're in favour of giving money back favour of giving more money back to the people and the tories are not that. so how could you support tories? no support the tories? no, no political and political party is anymore. and i this is why the next the i think this is why the next the next years in british next few years in british politics, there's going be politics, there's going to be there's new party there's going to be a new party or an old party. this or possibly an old party. this this small there's to come this small there's going to come from and take a sizeable from nowhere and take a sizeable chunk vote as it's chunk of the vote as it's happening italy. it's it happening in italy. it's it should have happened that brexit the brexit party should have been there the

been that. but there was the counter—revolution been that. but there was the counter—revo we on been that. but there was the counter—revowe need something well, maybe we need something like. sdp perhaps you have some fantastic policies anyway. final question george. and question now is from george. and george individuals question now is from george. and geiresponsible individuals question now is from george. and geiresponsible for individuals question now is from george. and geiresponsible for paying iduals be responsible for paying reparations now reparations for slave re? now this question goes on and on because there's sorts of because there's all sorts of examples. is about the examples. but this is about the mp richard drax, mp for dorset, richard drax, who's hand who's under pressure to hand background barbados because who's under pressure to hand ba

from a particularly egregious instance family made instance where the family made all their money? if it's specifically benedict, do you see he can pay all of it because he also any virtue signals he also goes any virtue signals . he campaigned . you know, he campaigned alongside it extinction rebellion while . he's the face rebellion while. he's the face of amg cars india you know you also apply this to the show on a mashup, a meme of whose family are nigerian royalty, who also made a lot of their money off slaves. oh yeah. she she's absolutely sure the doctors the most should be which should be should reparations should she embodies reparations . definitely. you should definitely maisha . my definitely pay maisha. my ancestors slaves. my ancestors didn't have slaves. my were a terrible time were also having a terrible time well dr. shole is incest we're making money selling slaves i mention that because it's a sore point because you had a big row with her on good morning britain, something like that. when i eventually managed to get a but it does feel a word in. but it does feel slightly hypocritical know slightly hypocritical we know when from a family when you come from a family that peddled be to be peddled in yeah. to be to be criticising systemic when criticising systemic racism when your royalty your actual royalty go to another country and see oh my god oppressing me . so god you're oppressing me. so what you think about this what do you think about this one? there benedict one? there is benedict

cumberbatch. forced cumberbatch. should he be forced to money back? i mean, to give his money back? i mean, liam makes a good point. does he that may not have got that he may not have got anywhere that leg up in anywhere without that leg up in society? not but society? he might not have. but i was a film with him with i was in a film with him with cats he had to give speech cats and he had to give a speech and he absolutely perfect. and he was absolutely perfect. i sort think he is a good sort of think he is a good actor. he is a really good actor's easy was on one in one day but louis doesn't you day but louis doesn't do, you know, the imitation game know, like the imitation game or stuff you we're stuff that, you know, we're giving long speeches. this giving king long speeches. this question basically close question is basically close to my because i'm my heart because i'm still awaiting reparations slavery awaiting reparations for slavery in . as a jew, the in egypt. as a jew, the egyptians , you know, they egyptians, you know, they enslaved us. we're still waiting to be paid for it. they've given away. you should threaten to dismantle pyramids. if they dismantle the pyramids. if they don't us, you'd be well don't pay us, then you'd be well justified doing that. justified in doing that. anyway, after speech after the break, on speech nation, going to be nation, we're going to be speaking to a man who is planning to sue the nhs who says his unbearable his life has been unbearable since undergoing trans surgery. four years ago. also be four years ago. i'll also be speaking keira bell, in speaking to keira bell, who in 2020 tavistock gender 2020 took tavistock gender identity service to the high court and won. see you in 3 minutes .

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle ritchie heron is now considering suing the nhs over allegations that he pressured as an adult to and surgery. ritchie no longer identifies as a trans woman and he firmly believes that the clinics need to be more thorough and their assessments before encouraging life changing operations . keira bell was born operations. keira bell was born female and transitioned, aged just 16. she was prescribed blocking drugs but regretted the decision six years later, following a double mastectomy in 2020, she took tavistock gender identity service to the high court and won the controversial clinic has been shut down. both ritchie heron and care about joining me now thank you both so much for joining joining me now thank you both so much forjoining keira. i want to come to you first about this. can give us just a brief background to what happened to you when you were 15 years old and you decided make journey and you decided to make journey into . yeah so i

into transitioning. yeah so i was dealing with a lot of issues at the time regarding my sexuality and just general mental health really . and yeah, mental health really. and yeah, just struggling my place in the world. and i went to the gp and i was referred to a local health service and i was shortly then on to the tavistock and yeah, it wasn't , was about four wasn't, was about four appointments before i was referred for puberty blockers and basically just snowballed from there. and you were dealing with various things. i mean, you were what, what's what described yourself as a tomboy and you were struggling with your being gay as well at the same time. why was it that the tavistock didn't explore other aspects of what might be going on, rather than assuming that there was a gender issue ? well, that's gender issue? well, that's a goodi gender issue? well, that's a good i mean, it was very obvious that there was some i mean, i'm

sure the extent of the influence at the time, but was definitely beginning to happen. and, you know , once you once you're as know, once you once you're as the as the patient the kind of declared myself as trans that was pretty much it there wasn't any further discussion because whatever the kid says that's supposed to be the truth and no debate basically . so yeah , this debate basically. so yeah, this is what they've described as gender affirmative a process where they simply affirm the statement that's made by the child in question . and richie child in question. and richie herron, can i bring you in now because you were older, weren't when you started your your transitioning. can you tell us a bit about that. hi, andrew. thank you. yeah, i was 25 when i started the process and 26 when i medically transition and i had the surgery two days before me, sist the surgery two days before me, 31st birthday. so i was like a

fully developed adult, 31st birthday. so i was like a fully developed adult , fully fully developed adult, fully developed brain and to say , but developed brain and to say, but i had all the vulnerabilities that kiera had to i was coherent , severe, all obsessive compulsive disorder , a severe compulsive disorder, a severe depression added a history of bullying at school . i depression added a history of bullying at school. i had an internet addiction, too, and variety of mental health issues , which were what kind of trip? separately, it was like you can be a trans person and have these mental health issues. it's not that you have these mental health issues, which is why you are transitioning and back clarity for me came to light was after surgery which is a very very you know growing a growing ground here in reality you know you can't escape the things that you can't escape the things that you have to deal with day and for me if you bring issues upon to the tyler and i general pain i road extensive about this and onune i road extensive about this and online and it wasn't just that

the surgery had led to these things i had refused multiple times and people don't understand when you you're not very well and yourself anyway and you've gotten not one but multiple medical professionals not just telling you that this is the route this is the best thing for you this is the best pathway and you really do eventually start to believe . and eventually start to believe. and eventually start to believe. and even though the reality was very, very simple, it wasn't very, very simple, it wasn't very complex i was gay and i hated being gay . can i ask you hated being gay. can i ask you about this? keira has mentioned just for appointments , the just for appointments, the tavistock, and that was all it took. tavistock, and that was all it took . in your tavistock, and that was all it took. in your case, tavistock, and that was all it took . in your case, how tavistock, and that was all it took. in your case, how many tavistock, and that was all it took . in your case, how many how took. in your case, how many how many appointments, how many how much discussion was there before this process began ? what this process began? what originally because of the wait for the gender clinic, which i eventually did get enrolled in, i got a full private diagnosis by, an nhs, gp and privately ,

by, an nhs, gp and privately, under two sessions and two days and i got the diagnosis for and which was later referenced for surgery . so it was really at surgery. so it was really at that moment . surgery. so it was really at that moment. it was surgery. so it was really at that moment . it was decided for that moment. it was decided for me and there was no question about it i mean this is remarkably quick. about it i mean this is remarkably quick . can i ask you remarkably quick. can i ask you about that? because in both of your cases, bainbridge, she's talking, struggling with being a gay man. you yourself were struggling being a gay woman to there have been whistleblowers at the tavistock that have the same thing that actually sometimes struggling sometimes parents are struggling with having a gay with the idea of having a gay child. to what extent is there a kind of anti—gay possibly kind of anti—gay or possibly homophobic element this this this situation ? i think it's this situation? i think it's pretty ingrained in the whole situation, really across the globe. i mean , you know, society globe. i mean, you know, society in general is uncomfortable with it . and i think this is it. and i think this is unfortunate are considered a solution an extent transitioning children is considered a better

way to live but evidently it's really a really bad way to. go. can i ask you how information did the specialists give you when it comes to i mean, some of this surgery is so invasive and irreversible. you had a double mastectomy to me, right? she had surgery on his genitals. this of stuff that is it cannot undone you know. and how much was was how much information was you in advance of what you would be going through? nothing very bafic going through? nothing very basic side effects , such as, in basic side effects, such as, in my case, facial hair and a deepening voice . for example, deepening voice. for example, i wasn't told about any of the real issues would come later down the line . they were pretty down the line. they were pretty much content with me saying that i'd done a bit of research onune i'd done a bit of research online and wanted to proceed and. they were they were pretty much happy with the ritchie this whole situation strikes me as very odd because when you know the fact that both in both of

your cases, this diagnosis appears to have been rushed through without avenues necessarily being explored . but necessarily being explored. but activists will say if doctors do explore, there's attitudes, consider, for instance, that you might be struggling with your homosexuality or some other depression, some other anxiety thatis depression, some other anxiety that is branded , trans that is branded, trans conversion therapy . what do you conversion therapy. what do you make of that ? i mean , i really make of that? i mean, i really wouldn't know because i wasn't asked about all these things. it was just all assumed that . this was just all assumed that. this is part of my trans i and when i brought up the regret or when i brought up the regret or when i brought up the regret or when i brought up any sort of maybe conflict to narrative as to maybe i'm just a little bit too obsessive it was well it was all brought back into that transphobic society and the reason you it's everyone else basically was the message that we got fed to us and what sort of reactions have you had since you have transitioned . i know you have transitioned. i know that detransition is not all

that detransition is not all that visible, but we don't hear about them all that often. but you have both very, very vocal about it. richi have you had any kind of negative reaction to being open about? i've had an overwhelmingly supportive reaction online from a large group of people, but also as said, a negative reaction and it very much feels like you've kind of left to congregate and research and now you flank evolved in the highest form blaspheme and yeah out there the streets and it's problems that it needs looked at and since actually everyone becomes very defensive they jump to assumptions too and they talk about these assumptions that i've never even voiced myself and you often find yourself defending things you don't believe in. you didn't say. and is a very hostile environment . is a very hostile environment. anyone who wants speak out against it because the worry it will be used to panic

completely, which is complete hyperbole in my opinion . it will hyperbole in my opinion. it will never go away. those services will always exist in form or another . carer can i will always exist in form or another. carer can i ask you a similar question ? because i'm similar question? because i'm interested because you've been so visible what with your case with the high court against the tavistock that surely some you must have had some of all kinds of reactions really. oh absolutely yeah. because it was such a big case unexpectedly for. yeah there's been a lot of people trying to drag me and trying to discredit me and that, you know, i've been called all sorts of names and yeah , they sorts of names and yeah, they always try and discredit my story because you know it also plucks a string with a lot of trans rights activists, i believe . and yeah , really, believe. and yeah, really, really nasty . why do you think really nasty. why do you think this that we've we've reached this that we've we've reached this point where you know if a young child or young girl has what i masculine tastes in football or that kind of thing

or young boys traditionally effeminate that we have to somehow that that's a problem to be fixed. why can't we just let kids be kids? what do things happen? care it's a good i think that's something still trying to figure out i'm not sure how really we're going to kind of be able to coexist in a in a way just because it's always been uponin just because it's always been upon in my experience . you know, upon in my experience. you know, it's considered a once you once you go past puberty you're not allowed to be a tomboy anymore . allowed to be a tomboy anymore. know i'm not allowed to be feminine, a feminine boy. know i'm not allowed to be feminine, a feminine boy . so feminine, a feminine boy. so i think that's something that still needs to be figured out. really. yeah yeah. i'm great into society . i'm rich really. yeah yeah. i'm great into society. i'm rich and you know, i'm because i sort of understand the homophobia . i understand the homophobia. i don't approve of it, obviously, but i understand homophobia has been something that's been there for are very for a long. people are very uncomfortable. that uncomfortable. it and that prejudice sort of prejudice can be sort of explained a way. but what

explained in a way. but what i don't understand the idea that children don't conform very children that don't conform very strictly to 1950 stereotypes of what it means to be male and female should be fixed, i suppose, through intervention. where do you think it's come from ? i believe it originated from? i believe it originated from? i believe it originated from from standards of care seven. where in 2011 we adopted the affirmation only and that approach and model itself was funded by interests that would have benefited from it and the have benefited from it and the have. have benefited from it and the have . and i do think the world have. and i do think the world does need to look at the organisation path and we need to not it off too w path because a lot of this has also come good intentions , you know, and intentions, you know, and whenever there's a debate about trans women in sport. so anything like it, it all comes from this space of people belief that they're doing the right thing and. i believe a lot of it comes down to this at all costs and approach originated in 2011.

and you think had more people said to you , oh, you're an said to you, oh, you're an effeminate gay man , there's effeminate gay man, there's nothing wrong with that , that nothing wrong with that, that maybe you might have taken a different path, maybe , but we'll different path, maybe, but we'll never know . karen, do you think never know. karen, do you think the same i mean , do you think if the same i mean, do you think if more people are sort of suggested that there's nothing wrong with being gay, there's nothing with a nothing wrong with being a tomboy , maybe might tomboy, that maybe you might have have turned have things might have turned out definitely. out differently? definitely. i think good chance think there's a good chance because was such a prominent because it was such a prominent issue in my life , i didn't see issue in my life, i didn't see any way out of it, really. and yeah, i really do think that would have a big difference. and how would you feel about it all now, keira? because obviously you've through a lot. you've been through a lot. you've very public it and you've been very public it and you've as you you've had all this as you describe all kinds of responses, not of pleasant. do you not all of them pleasant. do you have any regrets about anything? no, at all. no have no no, not at all. no have no regrets. you know, it's, of regrets. it's you know, it's, of course, very exhausting to have to kind of repeat my story and

in the face of all the kind of comments that i received . so comments that i received. so it's but i think, of course , it it's but i think, of course, it was it was worth it to . share my was it was worth it to. share my story and, take the case on. so i'm very happy that i did. that is part of the problem that a lot of people when they listen to the stories that you're describing, they sort just can't really believe happening really believe it's happening the would be an the idea that there would be an nhs would in and nhs that would step in and effectively try and fix gay kids . at the tavistock there was that dark joke that among the staff that soon there would be no gay people left. you know when hear those sorts of when we hear those sorts of things, difficult things, it's difficult to believe prevalent believe them, but how prevalent is richie i, i think the is this? richie i, i think the numbers speak for i think it was an 8,000% increase in referrals also over the last several years for young boys and girls to these clinics . but i do believe these clinics. but i do believe we are on we are kind of

watching the other side of that and i believe if we look at the numbers in the next few years you'll see a decrease, which i believe is happening as the trend is , i believe come into it trend is, i believe come into it life cycle and which is can i ask you about transitioning to what people often say to me but there aren't many detransition as there aren't many who regret the surgery went through. what do you make of that ? am i? i do you make of that? am i? i obviously think that is not speak to a lot of detransition owners and i can speak quite well for male side. i which is largely underrepresented because there's different at play, especially the want to speak out publicly and i also believe that a lot of male especially because of the way it amounts to socialised generally to go off and do their own thing and just go off and live the life in the that that a real healthy detransition is to separate from the identity politics and just

go back to your life, go back to normality and go back to the things that are healthy. good for you. and in the early days of the tavistock it was mostly a boys. of the tavistock it was mostly a boys . they weren't many, but boys. they weren't many, but there were some mostly boys who were coming in struggling with their gender identity. but now it that predominate and it seems that predominate and this affecting teenage girls this is affecting teenage girls is you think this might is why do you think this might be ? i believe it's been kind of be? i believe it's been kind of viewed as an easy out of just the struggles . female puberty, i the struggles. female puberty, i believe . i believe that's a big believe. i believe that's a big one. you know , girls are one. you know, girls are becoming more and more of aware of being objectified and different issues that and so is kind of seen as a way to evade all of that. and, you know , it all of that. and, you know, it can be very awkward growing up as a as a girl and boy, i'm sure, but i can speak to my experience and i know that i

definitely kind of jump to any chance of the issues that i was going through as a result of puberty . well, i really puberty. well, i really appreciate both of you telling us stories because this is obviously a very sensitive subject and i thank you very much for speaking out and being on the show with me tonight. keira and ritchie, a lot. keira and ritchie, thanks a lot. in statement, the cumbria , in a statement, the cumbria, northumberland, wear northumberland, tyne and wear nhs foundation trust said it could comment an individual, could not comment an individual, but it added , quote, care plans but it added, quote, care plans are collaborative and tailored to each patient's needs and goals and treatment decisions are made following a thorough assessment in line with national recommendations . after break on recommendations. after break on free speech nation could cold hard cash win the battle for free speech in the nation's universities. you .

in three. welcome back to free speech with

me andrew doyle . durham me andrew doyle. durham university's largest donor has stopped donating that money and will instead fund the fight for free speech. retired hedge fund manager mark hillary has gifted more than manager mark hillary has gifted more tha n £7 million over the more than £7 million over the last few years, but says they're not going to get another penny unless they get their free speech. house properly order. speech. house properly in order. his decision comes after a rise in what he considers campus pokery, which has seen speakers banned bullied out banned and academics bullied out for their opinions . that for voicing their opinions. that money is now going to free speech, union and founder director toby young is with me now. toby for joining director toby young is with me now. toby forjoining me. this is fantastic that one of these alumni that often gets lots of money to the universities is now going where it's going to going to you where it's going to do whole more good frankly do a whole lot more good frankly . yes. i mean , it is absolutely . yes. i mean, it is absolutely fantastic . and i hope other fantastic. and i hope other alumni donors to universities follow his lead. and instead of giving money to their old university . instead give it to university. instead give it to the free speech union. they're

concerned about the erosion of free speech at their alma mater. yes, we've we've done a lot in in durham itself before coming on the show. andrew, i checked to see how many individual cases the free speech union has been involved with at durham university, specifically since it was founded in 2020. and the answer is 50, which was higher than i was expecting it to . but than i was expecting it to. but to give you an example of the kind of thing i'm talking about, we went to bat for a young student at durham who was expelled after a series of complaints because , for complaints because, for instance, he was opposed to gay marriage. he was a traditional catholic. he took israel side in the israel israeli palestine conflict. and these things made his fellow students feel unsafe . these opinions and complaints were lodged. and incredibly, the university expelled him. it was the first member of his family to go to university. but he was expelled and with all help , he expelled and with all help, he complained to the office of the

independent adjudicate of higher . that appeal upheld and the adjudicator insisted that durham take him back and also find durham so durham had to pay him compensation for the inconvenience being expelled for a year and to delay his university education by a year. that's just one example of the kind of thing the free speech union can do to protect speech at universities. i mean this is something that people need to realise, they, that realise, don't they, that actually these actually when you stand up these people when you've got the people and when you've got the support of organisations like your you know, right your own, you know, the right outcome it's that so outcome does occur. it's that so many people don't realise that pushing the way forward. pushing back is the way forward. do find that that's case? do you find that that's case? yes i mean, i thought that we'd have more of a struggle . coming have more of a struggle. coming to defence of people placed under investigation for saying perfectly lawful things but which someone has found offensive and which the university has decided to take the complaints . i thought we'd the complaints. i thought we'd have more difficulty , but have more difficulty, but actually , surprisingly, if you

actually, surprisingly, if you push robustly, if we get our chief legal counsel, one of our legal officers involved . in some legal officers involved. in some cases we have to threaten to go to law. but as soon as you push back robustly and as as you make it clear that we're going to hold them to we're going to make sure they follow their own processes scrupulously and don't try and create a kangaroo and assume guilt before the whole process really gets underway . process really gets underway. it's remarkable how quickly they'll fold and ultimately the reason university authorities do the bidding of these activists is because they want quiet life. they're not necessarily ideologically on the same side . ideologically on the same side. they just want to take the path of least resistance. so if you can increase the cost of doing the bidding of the activists and make it clear that you're going to make even more if they ride roughshod over a student or an academic or free speech, they'll capitulate. when it comes to this issue of i remember when we

had the rhodesmustfall campaign in oxford and the reason i also i heard the reason the statue wasn't from oriel college is that a number donors, former alumni, said they weren't going to give any money anymore if they did this of thing. so is this be the way this going to be the way forward? that it's forward? that actually it's about really, they about money, really, and they respond yeah you're respond that. yeah you're absolutely right. i think that was absolutely critical in the battle to save the statue of cecil rhodes at oxford. it only when oriel announced that they would be removing the statue and various alumni donors said, well, in that case, we're going to stop any money to the university , to the college that university, to the college that the college did an immediate volte farce. and the statue remained standing to this day an organisation was set up last year called alumni academic freedom and it's the rationale is that if you can bring together a large group of alumni donors and if you can if you can say to or colleges that if they

do run roughshod free speech, if they don't do more to honour their own their own free speech policies and obligations that is going to be withdrawn. it's remarkable how quickly they'll sit up and start paying attention. it is a language that institutions really understand . institutions really understand. and to what extent in order to win this battle, do we need to get the students? because, you know, i recently a talk at cumberland king's college in, cambridge, i spoke cambridge, and i spoke to a number and they number of the students and they quite clearly were just as sick of this kind of stuff as anyone else. so found quite else. so i found quite encouraging. has that your encouraging. has that been your experience? i think i mean, experience? yes i think i mean, i like to think that the majority of students are actually fair minded . they they actually fair minded. they they don't don't they're not made to feel unsafe. when someone like rod liddle invited to give an after dinner speech was the complaint at durham last year. it's only a small minority who are bullying the rest . but there are bullying the rest. but there was rather a depressing stat in

a recent survey for the higher education policy institute, which was published, the survey was published in june of last yean was published in june of last year, which found that 79% of students at think english universities believe that students that feel threatened, should always have their demands for safety respected . so that for safety respected. so that suggests we've got our battle cut out for us . and given that cut out for us. and given that being the case could you perhaps give our viewers before you go just some information about how they can find out more about the free speech union and where indeed they can join? sure. andrew so if anyone interested, they can go to our homepage, which is free speech union .org the home page at the moment is a list of everything we've achieved in 2022 and what we're hoping to achieve in 2023. and you can click on one of the join buttons on that page, if you're a student, if you're benefits, if you're a veteran, if you're retired , it's only 24.95 a year retired, it's only 24.95 a year full membership is 49, 95 a yeah full membership is 49, 95 a year. you can pay that monthly .

year. you can pay that monthly. and the reason we're able to keep these membership fees low is because of generous donations . people mark, hilary . people like mark, hilary subsidises our work and subsidises our work and subsidises our work and subsidises our membership fees. toby young , you very much for toby young, you very much for joining me . thanks. after the joining me. thanks. after the break, i'm free speech nation energy that sell fo r £17 and energy that sell for £17 and a walrus that cancels new year's eve . the social sensations that eve. the social sensations that have got you all talking this week. see you in 3 minutes .

welcome to free speech nation. so every we dedicate this part of the show to the world of social media and what has gone viral or whatever has caught our eye. so we're going to start with this one, an arctic walrus was spotted having a rest at harbour in scarborough. let's have a look. he's go over all right . what's it for the walrus

right. what's it for the walrus on skype. apparently they cancelled the scallop our account scheifele cancel of a planned fireworks display following the arrival of the walrus called thor in the town's harbour. he was spotted on the hampshire coastline earlier month. this is a weird one, isn't there what walrus is doing? i don't know much about wars, but do they just sort of turn up and. well, i've always seen them on nature documentaries, ice and things like that. but is this it something to do with climate change? know he's change? because i know he's called thor and that is apparently listen to , apparently if you listen to, greta thunberg, is what is greta thunberg, that is what is happening arctic ice going. happening to arctic ice going. yes. okay well, joe, is that. it's the walrus dangerous as a creature because it's just lying there on day. if people come up to will attack them. i don't know anything them you know when anybody on the beach doing anybody lying on the beach doing thatis anybody lying on the beach doing that is dangerous if you up that is dangerous if you go up to them. wouldn't go no to them. well i wouldn't go no i wouldn't go there. i've been the nudist brighton even nudist beach in brighton even those can be dangerous. those guys can be dangerous. okay, stop. got okay, well, let's stop. got time. i never heard of time. drink? i never heard of that. jens did. can't get

that. well, jens did. can't get enough i've never of enough of it. i've never of this, apparently very this, but apparently it's very very bottles very popular and some bottles cost , £17. however aldi had very popular and some bottles cost, £17. however aldi had a sale and look what happened but clever . was what everyone clever. was what everyone. on the house including i really don't understand the appeal of these energy drinks and why that why do people get mad for them? £17. th e £17 as well. i mean, £17. the £17 as well. i mean, unless it's got cocaine in it, i mean, that's just ridiculous. use of a cup of coffee. and i don't know, as you see, i look at people, those when see at those people, those when see those i mean that a those people i mean that in a very way. i don't mean to discriminate. they are plebs and they're the exact same people who will be complaining about tory. you know, they've got to use a foodbank. so you go to use a foodbank, you two quid a foodbank, you spend two quid on stupid drinks. prime you take

this one. lewis i don't take energy. no stimulants at all. no, because i don't need stimulants because when you're on an all meat diet, you don't need stimuli. is that right? yeah because carbs, are yeah because carbs, carbs are enervating , you not do caffeine. enervating, you not do caffeine. it's all like coffee. you have a it's all like coffee. you have a ihave it's all like coffee. you have a i have cup of coffee at the i have a cup of coffee at the earlier i saw you did you ever do that to what's happened to you ? a hypocrite. what about you? a hypocrite. what about your principles, lewis have principles, sometimes you principles, but sometimes you know, a chocolate is still a chocolate. and finally, we've got sean . now, sean penn is got sean. now, sean penn is suggesting that unvaccinated people be segregated from people should be segregated from society. have a look . this if society. have a look. this if someone chooses not to be vaccinated, that they should choose to stay home, not to work, not have a job, use it. you know, as long as we're all paying you know, as long as we're all paying for these streets, we've got to ride safely on them. and so i'm just hopeful that the mindset will change. i mean, a lot of people have said this in the past that people are unvaccinated, should be actually punished. yeah, but segregation,

i mean, where is god to be i mean, where is god seems to be punishing vaccinated more with those myocarditis a lot of sudden adult death. i i wish there was a vaccine against sudden death. i'd be more for vaccines if i'd known they were going to kill so many footballers. that footballers. but that is unproven, idea of unproven, isn't it? the idea of people because the people dying because the vaccine. concern here is vaccine. but my concern here is the idea of segregating people for the choices make. for the choices that they make. yeah. that's yeah. no, that's that's appalling . and also, what year appalling. and also, what year do is 23 coronavirus do you think is 23 coronavirus doesn't anymore . and doesn't even exist anymore. and if you do get it it's like it's no than a cold. so why is no worse than a cold. so why is he he think it's 2020 he does he think it's 2020 understanding everybody understanding when everybody was in he's been in a panic maybe he's been beaten is a gated community too long. stay safe and find out the i mean, it's still it's still with us. i had covid last month and it was pretty horrible. i've had it three times. you had it in edinburgh. think got. in edinburgh. i think you got. i didn't really i had a really badly thought was going to badly i thought i was going to die. you know, i wish they got vaccinated, but it's still here and we are we're on with and yet we are we're on with life. and it all seems. life. yeah. and it all seems. okay. we don't to segregate okay. we don't need to segregate anyone why isn't

anyone so why is isn't easy choosing time to say choosing the wrong time to say this no one's going to this i mean no one's going to get this either. well, get on board this either. well, he actually believes he's he he actually believes he's being moderate. these being a moderate. really these people believe, that people actually believe, that people actually believe, that people taken the people who haven't taken the vaccinate vaccinations vaccinate vaccinate vaccinations been vaccinated have have basically killed people. okay, so this is a moderate solution to people who aren't keeping moderate. yeah. because because what it is it's like it's like with the climate crisis thing thatis with the climate crisis thing that is that if you didn't take a vaccination. it meant you were killing people. yeah. that's what they they said you're evil. and the problem. imagine if he said this about people with hiv. he'd be denounced as a bigot. people they say that back in the day and, they were too nice. listen, we do have to end the show. we've got an unfiltered dilemma. i think we've got time for all of them, but we've got time for one of them. the first one is from dennis in bournemouth. dennis bournemouth says, i've recently started playing and i spent says, i've recently started playing and i spent £100 on mine and my wife's shared bank account. my daughter also

fortnite and my wife immediately assumed it was her. i can't bnng assumed it was her. i can't bring myself to admit to my wife how much of a loser i am. is it okay let daughter take hit okay to let my daughter take hit for i don't even know what for me? i don't even know what fortnite to honest. you fortnite is. to be honest. you don't anything this. don't know anything about this. it's a game. i know you could spend money on it. i thought it was just a game. buy the was just a game. you buy the game, play. run game, then you play. you run a bit in the game. but i can play fortnite. you've got to. it's not running boot, people. not just running a boot, people. you've build things you've also got to build things really. and it's complicated and i think you've got to get dressed in costumes. dressed up and in costumes. you've to train. yes. well, you've got to train. yes. well, you're not gamer or know than you're not a gamer or know than i so play games, but i'm i am. so i play games, but i'm not gamer. glad you're not not a gamer. i'm glad you're not a you. is anyway, a gamer. thank you. is anyway, thatis a gamer. thank you. is anyway, that is all we've got time for. i'm afraid. thank you so much for joining us. free speech forjoining us. free speech nafion nation this was the week when extinction rebellion vowed kerb their excesses. professor of their excesses. a professor of art sacked for art history was sacked for showing of mohammed art history was sacked for sh aving of mohammed art history was sacked for sh a class of mohammed art history was sacked for sh a class and of mohammed art history was sacked for sh a class and walrus'iohammed to a class and a walrus cancelled scarborough's new year's you to year's eve party. thank you to my leo kearse and lewis my panel. leo kearse and lewis shafer my guests. shafer and to my guests. karabell, herron, young, karabell, richie herron, young, frazer, houghton frazer, myers, jane houghton and alex if want to

alex morey. and if you want to us live in the studio and be part of our wonderful, you can do just go to w dot sro do that. just go to w w dot sro audiences we didn't have audiences .com. we didn't have an tonight, but we will an audience tonight, but we will from week. stay tuned for from next week. stay tuned for mark dolan tonight with neil fox. up fox. that's coming up next. looking to tomorrow's looking ahead to tomorrow's weather and the uk will have a cold, frosty start for many on monday morning. cloudier the monday morning. cloudier in the south after a very cold start. temperatures slowly rise across scotland on monday morning under mostly clear skies. however, we do have few showers on the way. these will be mostly across the western isles . these will be mostly across the western isles. it'll these will be mostly across the western isles . it'll be a bright western isles. it'll be a bright and cold and, frosty start for many in northern ireland, but with some isolated mist and fog patches in places as well. a few showers will continue to affect parts of north—west england , but parts of north—west england, but there'll be some decent sunny , there'll be some decent sunny, particularly the further east. you a rural frost is possible in places across wales, but most it's a bright start to holiday monday cloudier across the far north, perhaps with an isolated coastal shower or two. meanwhile, looking at east

midlands and it's a fine chilly start today with mostly skies across the region , temperatures across the region, temperatures down a little bit . they could down a little bit. they could just rise into double light winds and clear skies greets many across east anglia on bank houday many across east anglia on bank holiday monday . however, there holiday monday. however, there will be a little more the way of cloud across the far south cloudy across southern counties. first thing with further outbreaks of light and patchy rain . but this will clear in rain. but this will clear in places during the morning feeling chilly . the rain and feeling chilly. the rain and cloud across the south will clear with most places enjoying dry and bright day feeling in places. that's how the weather is shaping up during tomorrow morning . hello i'm simon evans. morning. hello i'm simon evans. join me on for gb news headliners at 11 pm, where i'll be joined by two of the country's top comedians as we take a look at tomorrow's newspapers tonight. if it's a big story , we'll be covering it, big story, we'll be covering it, i guarantee. but we'll have some fun way . that's gb fun along the way. that's gb news headliners 11 pm. we won't

put you to sleep. unlike some of the other big review shows out there to join us. 11 pm. seven nights a week .