coming up on today's camilla tominey show, i'm going to be speaking to ian duncan smith, former tory party leader , about former tory party leader, about his chances of winning the next general election without boris johnson. i'll also be speaking to peter carl about their solutions for the northern ireland protocol and i've got a big interview coming up. we're going to be speaking to former commons speakerjohn bercow, but here's the news with ray anderson . good morning. it's 30. anderson. good morning. it's 30. here's the latest from the gb

news three. at least 44 people have died following a plane crash in nepal. the country's worst aviation disaster in five years. nepal's authority says 72 people were on board yeti airlines flights, which crashed in pokhara during skies. local television showed thick smoke billowing from the crash site as rescue operations got underway. hundreds of rescue workers are scouring the hillside and airport officials said those on board included passengers from india ireland, australia and france . the seven year old girl france. the seven year old girl is in a life threatening condition in hospital. a suspected drive by shooting in north london. a total of six people were injured in the attack which happened outside a funeral in euston. four women are being treated in hospital whilst a second child has since been released. police are appealing for witnesses and say no arrests have yet been made . no arrests have yet been made. the health secretary has reportedly told unions he's willing to talk about improved

pay willing to talk about improved pay for all nhs staff except doctors. according to the observer newspaper unison chief says steve barclay's tone has been very different in negotiations this week. he now wants to persuade the treasury to offer higher pay rises . it to offer higher pay rises. it comes as nurses threaten to double down on strike efforts in february if negotiations progress on tv, online and on tv plus radio. this is gb news. back now to the show . back now to the show. good morning. welcome to the camilla tominey show's second week running. feeling a little more relaxed and i've got a promise you this week. my promise you this week. my promise is that this is going to be a safe space away from news of those people over in montecito whose names we shall not even mention. seeing as i've spent the whole week, i think i

might have written about 7000 words on the couple and we're not going to speak about them for 90 minutes. so enjoy this. instead, we're going to embrace political scene, talk about the stories that really matter. i've got sir iain duncan smith joining me shortly . he's going joining me shortly. he's going to talk about whether the tories have a hope in hell of winning the next general election without boris johnson. also without boris johnson. i'm also going speaking to peter going to be speaking to peter kyle. labour's kyle. he's labour's shadow northern secretary about northern ireland secretary about their the protocol and their for the protocol and i know he's the man you love to but brace yourselves . we've got but brace yourselves. we've got former commons speaker john bercow coming in going to be asking about. i'm going to be asking about. i'm going to be asking him about brexit going to be about everything. be asking him about everything. let's have a quick run through of of all, of the front pages of all, though. sunday telegraph. though. now sunday telegraph. this interesting because we this is interesting because we keep having labour leader keep on having the labour leader parking on tory lawns parking his tanks on tory lawns and the sunday telegraph front page headline is starmer nonsense bureaucracy in nhs and he's talking about the fact that he's talking about the fact that he wants to get rid of some of the problems that we encounter

when to the doctor's when we go to the doctor's surgery. sunday times times wins a peace talk plan ahead of coronations. i'm going to elaborate on that because there's a couple of names we're not going to mention in the show. the observer cabinet split over nhs pay piles, pressure on sunak again the nhs featuring heavily in today's papers . the heavily in today's papers. the mail on sunday rishi risks being dragged into coronation row again. it's a royal story will mention nothing further than that. mention nothing further than that . the sunday express doing that. the sunday express doing something completely different. sex assault during riot at migrant centre. is splashed today. migrant centre. is splashed today . we've got on the front of today. we've got on the front of the mirror sunday mirror tory donor tycoons . 4.5 million to donor tycoons. 4.5 million to destroy pay . it's a story about destroy pay. it's a story about the head of clipperjust sticks the head of clipper just sticks taking money to destroy ppe that presumably had been ordered with taxpayers cash and then the front of the sun on sunday. girl

seven shot during drive by at funeral which i think we'll get onto in just a moment. so there's your front pages. i am delighted to be joined by a legend in his own lifetime . legend in his own lifetime. michael crick, journalistic there. thank you very much. i know if you remember this, but when i was a young hack, a young of a reporter, i once with you last week . two weeks ago, i saw last week. two weeks ago, i saw you on the tube and i approached and i said, i you were a great journalist and you were quite shy and you said, oh, thank you very much, thinking, who is this lunatic? and now we are on the same show together. so tell me. that's are my that's great. you are my journalistic. tell me what journalistic. and tell me what you of today's papers. you made of today's papers. there's story calling there's one story we're calling story day, because you story of the day, because you think it hasn't quite got the credence deserves. well, it's credence it deserves. well, it's a extraordinary story, a quite extraordinary story, which it's not the main story on the front page of the sunday times, but it's the it's the one at the top. yeah, it's all about it. says johnson had . credit it. says johnson had. credit facility was up it. says johnson had. credit facility was u p £800,000 while facility was up £800,000 while in downing . what? and the man

in downing. what? and the man that he got this facility from was his cousin, a man called sam . and the more you read the story, more extraordinary it gets. at the height of the covid crisis, at end of 2020, officials downing street were seriously worried that boris johnson might not be able to pay his tax bill, which was presumably due, as it is all the of january. the idea either the prime minister not having enough to money his tax bill and of course, why it had happened was that before he became. prime minister, there's a period where he was making oodles of money from writing a column from the for the daily telegraph. £275,000 a year plus these mp salary, plus all his speaking nights work. if he hadn't lined up enough money or kept enough money back, and at the same time , of course, he was he had the divorce problems with his wife , divorce problems with his wife, marina, and the incredibly

expensive divorce settlement . is expensive divorce settlement. is it the amount or is it the fact that the cousin's involved? well the cousin basically the cousin had guaranteed underwritten a loan. it seems from this article . but what and this is not a page anywhere on register of interest, but more extraordinary still that this cousin sam blythe conveyed had applied to be chief executive of the british council, a body run by the foreign office, essentially the foreign office, essentially the venerable old britain around the venerable old britain around the world, and officials in downing street, including the cabinet secretary, apparently didn't know that blythe was in for a government job at the same time when he's agreeing to give johnson this credit facility, which doesn't appear on any pubuc which doesn't appear on any public register when they say it's not on the register of interest, why not? i thought that was the public record of what employees do on the site? the there are different the money there are different registers as know this registers. as you know this there's employees register which is the toughest of all actually . and then if you're a minister

there's also a ministerial register of interests to make sure that anything in your background doesn't conflict with work, your work as a minister and of the ministerial register is public, and part of it is private. and this was on the register. it's, it's not i don't know why i don't available for pubuc know why i don't available for public scrutiny and this was all okayed by simon case and officials in number 10 and we knew nothing about this floor and it was a see by simon case as well as teflon coated. this was all at a time when he's trying to deal with covid and all sorts of other problems, such as northern ireland of brexit and he they worry that tearing their hair out about how they how do we enable the prime minister to pay his tax bill. and you can imagine how awful it would have looked if he'd . but would have looked if he'd. but we know money's always been an issue for us. and don't we? but also there's some other coverage of him today in the papers talking that this talking about the fact that this parliamentary or

parliamentary standards or privileges is privileges committee hearing is now going to be aired in public. yes so what costs the fighting for the right if it's a story and you picked your favourite opinion piece? now, this is interesting in the mail on sunday, isn't it? because it's basically an opinion piece from beyond grave. tell me about beyond the grave. tell me about this. well, last week paul johnson, who was a very well—known journalist in his day, gone on the left , up very day, gone on the left, up very much on the right. he died at the age of 94. and the mail on sunday have gone back and find founder one of the columns that pauljohnson founder one of the columns that paul johnson wrote for the daily mail over way back in 19 1991. i think it is the health service and all the problems of the health service as well written. but indeed it is published today in which johnson says in many ways the nhs is an old fashioned nationalised industry , nationalised industry, inefficient over and over , inefficient over and over, unionised and a staggering financial it employs well over a million people, only two thirds of whom are directly involved as doctors and nurses in tending

the sick . and so much of. the sick. and so much of. i mean, basically it shows that the problems of the health service now are new now that we that we were people were worrying about this johnson was worrying about this johnson was worrying about this more than 30 years ago. 32 years ago. yes so what changes and we've got this debate on it's interesting as well. he says large numbers of patients sit around waiting often hours, sometimes much often for hours, sometimes much longer. yeah. well, for longer. yeah, yeah. well, for months , years these days. but months, years these days. but that also plays into the theme today's papers, doesn't it, of storm of very much trying to ape the tories with some of these measures he's talking about axing bureaucracy people be able to refer themselves to physios having people being able to organise their own blood tests. and actually this will be music to most people's ears won't it? well, it's interesting that . well, it's interesting that. laboun well, it's interesting that. labour. labour clearly i've decided that they can't just sort of be sympathetic . i'm just sort of be sympathetic. i'm just trying to find the columns i telegraph as well. labour are playing a clever along with i mean the wing press. last week

we heard noises from wes streeting, the labour health spokesman, about how labour would be tough on doctors. yes, we had him on our show and now got starmer saying, look , it's got starmer saying, look, it's ridiculous how you have to do everything through your gp. you can't self—refer to is for physiotherapy and those kind of things. the lots of bureaucracy in the health service and labour clearly as realise they can't just be sort of sympathetic to the pay demands of doctors and nurses. they've actually got to come and say something positive and they've got to show themselves as tough and that is what starmer clearly doing what starmer is clearly doing it's interesting they're clearly targeting nhs ahead of the next election . you've gone the election. you've gone for the sun on sunday. the most shocking front page, understandably. girl seven shot in drive by at funeral . i tell you what's funeral. i tell you what's shocking about this, michael, is that only on the front page that it's only on the front page of one newspaper. is that because so immune because we've become so immune to these sorts of events that they aren't front page news anymore ? i think i think there's

anymore? i think i think there's anymore? i think i think there's an element of that and maybe i'm probably an element of i mean, you've worked in newspapers. i never have. but of maybe by then this happened at yesterday, 130 and maybe by then most of those people, most newspapers were set on that front. to be fair, the mirror, i think, did initially splash and then they changed up to this story about this tory tycoon the paper but tycoon in the paper but but maybe it reflects the fact that you there been so you know, there have been so many but this is, you know, even more horrific. i mean, it was in it in. right on euston it was in. right next on euston station broad daylight. station in broad daylight. i after a funeral of with hundred and 50 people there at a drive by shooting. apparently, one of the according to witnesses , one the according to witnesses, one of the suspects fled into euston station , pursued by armed station, pursued by armed police. it is most dreadful story and you know, there's a seven year old girl who was seems to be fighting for her.

it's absolutely terrible . and it's absolutely terrible. and her loved ones finally , you've her loved ones finally, you've chosen for your picture of the day these this set of twins. so just explain this some lots of sale a lot across the atlantic in record time . i believe they in record time. i believe they took them well . there's two sets took them well. there's two sets of twins there that they called their surnames, fred. so there's jack , hamish, you and arthur. so jack, hamish, you and arthur. so great picture. one such is 26 on one side is one of the i don't know which was which but they once 24 was this 26. yes. so they wrote they they they may be far enough to have rowed. yeah. very from to antigua and it took them 32 days. quite an extraordinary feat and but i mean a lot of people have rowed across the atlantic, but i don't think we've ever had two sets of twins. so you've got some experience with multiple births in your own family and son, michael? i have. i have my sisters are triplets. i identical triplets . oh, my

identical triplets. oh, my goodness. i bet you felt a little pushed as everyone doted on the three babies. well, i think it made me a rather more aggressive person having to deal with three girls who . i quite with three girls who. i quite got the better. i don't have much as michael. thank you very much as michael. thank you very much michael crick with the papers there. now as you know, we're doing something new on gb news this show, particularly. news on this show, particularly. we're the country we're going across the country to what you think about to find out what you think about the papers and the stories in the papers and indeed that indeed the people that i interview this show. so interview on this show. so olivia joins now from olivia utley joins us now from birmingham people birmingham what are people talking there, olivia, talking about there, olivia, nice . hello, camilla nice to see you. hello, camilla very nice to see you. yes, i'm here at taste ology, a cafe in birmingham and we've got our fab people panel just behind door talking to them about the issues matter most to them from strike to crime to immigration . and to crime to immigration. and without further ado, let's inside . hello. had had just the inside. hello. had had just the owner of a taste ology hatch. thank you so much for having

here today. how's business going every good morning guys are welcome to taste business. it's getting better progressing with time as we have been here for years would be hoping so much fantastic . and are there any fantastic. and are there any challenges facing your business at moment? really except at the moment? not really except that probably the bills which getting worse and worse and hopefully the government will find solution this . find some solution to this. great. very and thanks great. thanks very and thanks again for having us. great. thanks very and thanks again for having us . can i you again for having us. can i you to our people's panel. first up, we have mark. mark is a business owner here in birmingham and. mark, what do you think the biggest challenges facing britain in 2023? i there are so many challenges facing britain. so the biggest challenge really is the useless tory government that we've currently got at the moment and they're inactive for tea so they're taking no action on illegal immigration, no on the nhs , no action on crime , and the nhs, no action on crime, and they're not doing anything about they're not doing anything about the which are crippling the country . so i think that the

country. so i think that the overall problem is this government because they just aren't anything that people want them to do . and i think that's them to do. and i think that's them to do. and i think that's the that's the biggest problem that we're facing today, particularly the nhs . i think particularly the nhs. i think that's a real problem at the moment because the tory government solution to it is throw more of our money at it without actually looking to reform it and do something about it, i.e. reform the waste that goes on within that organised and some of the work product projects it gets involved in. so i think that that's the key thing is do something, take some action and stop throwing our money down the drain. thank you. a very clear start message for politicians from mark. and here we've got tony, who is a teacher nearby. tony to be a labour voter and is now a floating voter and is now a floating voter and is now a floating voter and obviously sunak has a very full in—tray this year. what do you think should be his top?i what do you think should be his top? i think the economy is big thing, bringing down inflation , thing, bringing down inflation, getting confidence back in the economy . i feel that the country

economy. i feel that the country is kind of stagnate in a little bit now. i think it needs a boost . i bit now. i think it needs a boost. i think bit now. i think it needs a boost . i think sylvia, i bit now. i think it needs a boost. i think sylvia, i think is marks it with you is exhausted marks it with you know, nhs money. you know we can't money at these projects and expect just to be fine. it needs to mismanagement all levels in the public sector economy at ministerial levels and. i think that i'm just having disillusionment to be honest. thank you . thank you honest. thank you. thank you very much, tony. and of the start there. jay here is a student in birmingham jay. young voters often feel a bit disillusioned by what's going on in westminster. how do you think our politicians could wing them? but you? you're absolutely correct . young student, correct. i'm a young student, patriot from the road house. sutton coldfield , and you are sutton coldfield, and you are absolutely correct that many young feel very young people feel very disconnected from the westminster government . i westminster government. i believe government priority believe the government priority should the youth fight. the should be the youth fight. the woke agenda and empowering and securing britain . thank you very securing britain. thank you very much. another clear message . and much. another clear message. and last not least here we've last but not least here we've got thank you so much. got sylvia. thank you so much. calling sylvia. sylvia is a

retired teacher but still working part time. and you're floating voter to what would the prime minister have to do to get your vote at the next election. he really has to with crime he really has to deal with crime so as i'm concerned . there so far as i'm concerned. there are so many burglaries, car thefts and feeling safe on the streets. i shouldn't have to carry of these or give granddaughters when they go to live in london one of these or buy my 18 year old grandson stop . yeah it's terrifying. and i really think that as part of it , he has to control illegal immigration because we're an overpopulated country . we have overpopulated country. we have too many people here too. infrastructure and housing and so on. and having to deal with that really . all right. thank that really. all right. thank you so much, sylvia. another great message there. so thank you from all people's panel. and we will be back to them later. but for now, that's camilla in

the studio . thank you very much the studio. thank you very much . that here, if you want to apply for the people's panel, go to for gbnews.uk access panel. i believe we're in southend next week. so if you by the seaside do apply now, i'm delighted to be joined now by. iain duncan smith, you for joining be joined now by. iain duncan smith, you forjoining me, smith, thank you for joining me, ian. let's talk about online ian. and let's talk about online safety because you've from safety because you've gone from tory party leader to party rebel over this issue. why is that . over this issue. why is that. well, it's not so much rebellion . it's trying to get trying to get this this bill in order. it was very wide but quite loose and quite intervening without any focus . the key bit of all of any focus. the key bit of all of this bill is about safeguarding children . so the bill doesn't children. so the bill doesn't have a real safeguard in and that's what this is all about. it's about saying to those who are the senior managers that run these online , you will bear these online, you will bear responsible if you breach this , responsible if you breach this, if kids are damaged as a result of what you put up on your your media side and there'll be criminal charges on that as

well. i sense a smooth music from the culture secretary, michel donna, to move a bit on this, but could rishi sunak face a defeat on this as far as the rebellion is concerned? i understand is certainly around 40 people that have signed it andifs 40 people that have signed it and it's not because they want to defeat the government. the government's moving in the right. our view is the one right. but our view is the one big bit in the whole online safety all harms bill is all about children . at the end of about children. at the end of the day, that's really the key thing that we have to protect the group that least able to support them. so that's what this is all about. and ireland's gonein this is all about. and ireland's gone in that direction already. and none of these online companies have moved from ireland. is there, ireland. all of this is there, and promised it twice in two and we promised it twice in two manifestos. can i ask because you, first of all, were behind bofis you, first of all, were behind boris johnson's campaign and then supported liz truss. then you supported liz truss. are happy with sunak as are you happy with sunak as party leader? because i get the impression that perhaps people in your side of the party regard is quite wet. well no, i don't. i don't have a particular view in that regard. i just know that

as prime minister, he's got a very big task on his hands. my view about this is that this is not over yet, although the are very big for labour. it's not like 96, 97. i do think it's great though. and no one, i think the public their mind think the public made their mind up and brown. up with blair and brown. they had stage what i get and had by that stage what i get and what i see in the polls, you look at the detailed stuff. there was poll two weeks there was a poll out two weeks ago showed who voted ago that showed who voted conservative 2019 three conservative in 2019 have three very strong issues they want sorted he does those they sorted and if he does those they admitted they well go back admitted they may well go back to the conservatives. he's worried about your own seat, though, in chingford because you're i mean, you're in a marginal i mean, i know lot mps are getting know a lot mps are getting nervous. they think that there could be a mass exodus the could be a mass exodus from the party not going party come 2024. i'm not going i'm fight that seat and i'm going to fight that seat and win it. and by the way, everybody told me for last everybody told me for the last two elections couldn't hold two elections i couldn't hold on. so. are you on. and i did so. but are you worried about not having the boris, politician that reach boris, the politician that reach you, others you, reaches parts that others cant? you, reaches parts that others can't? course, i think can't? well, of course, i think boris, know, should back boris, you know, should be back doing campaigning he's the great campaigner we have. he campaigner that we have. he helps weather. that's helps change the weather. that's what it. and

what you want with it. and i think rishi and come to think hope rishi and he come to an along those lines an arrangement along those lines and would we use and that would make sense we use the talents we've got in the best talents we've got in the best talents we've got in the party rule people the party and not rule people off because they've been around too long or because so. this talk making a i mean, talk of him making a i mean, you'd like see that. well, you'd like to see that. well, i think, you know, when you have a man a great campaigner. man is a great campaigner. i think it's for you, think it's useful for you, whatever make sure he's whatever else, to make sure he's on side campaigning because on your side campaigning because we the next we want to win the next election. i think that a election. because i think that a lot of what's going on in labour at the moment is a lot shop window there's got to window stuff. there's got to find a privileges committee looming that we now understand is televised . do you is going to be televised. do you support idea support that? the idea of televising should private televising should be a private committee? don't actually, committee? no i don't actually, by just what by the way, i just wonder what they're trying find out they're trying to find out because, know, everything because, you know, everything been general sense been dug out. my general sense is is they're is from the public is they're sick and tired of the story, really, i mean, most partygate but have moved on. boris but people have moved on. boris has gone. no longer prime has gone. he's no longer prime minister to me like minister this looks to me like it something started to get it was something started to get rid ended up not rid of boris, but ended up not actually because actually happening because boris is truth is now is gone. and the truth is now there are bigger issues. the nhs , taxation growth. yeah get the

votes across the stop these sort of things are big issues for most of the public. let's talk about internal workings of parliament. taxation parliament. let's about taxation and because i would and growth. because i would imagine that somebody your imagine that somebody of your persuasion that taxes persuasion and thinks that taxes are the electorate and are too high the electorate and equally perhaps that the treasury overcautious when it treasury is overcautious when it comes to economic policy. we learnt the latest learnt this week from the latest figures that growth was higher than expected. perhaps it's the world cup factor, but the treasury has now got another n1 billion pounds to play with is this symptomatic of this idea that the treasury is far too negative about , this country's negative about, this country's prospects. well, the one thing to remember is almost every single produced by the abr , any single produced by the abr, any of the great and the good is almost certainly wrong and we start from that. all of the forecasts very pessimistic , i forecasts very pessimistic, i thought far too pessimistic . i thought far too pessimistic. i think that they've felt the uk was going to go deeper into recession. i've never felt that. i think these figures show that there's a very good chance that

we'll be able to come out and start, and that's the key. but that seem to be hunton sunak's attitude. i mean, it's all very much steady she goes it's all much steady as she goes it's all going terrible, you know, going to be terrible, you know, nobody see this growth nobody can see this growth pie growing. well, the is two things happen. first of all, the uk economy shown in these economy is shown in these figures. it's much more resilient. you after all, there's still huge numbers of jobs there. filling them is jobs out there. filling them is the you know, the problem not, you know, having out of . having more people out of. that's bit. and secondly that's the key bit. and secondly , there's i think rishi sunak, as as minister, as i know him as prime minister, is in his heart. somebody wants to reduce taxation. so there will be a moment, you know, where else it can go. let's say i know it's too high and he knows that, but we've got to get the taxes do it at the the taxes down. we do it at the right moment, which sometime right moment, which is sometime in the early part of this year. i and think that will in the early part of this year. i drive d think that will in the early part of this year. i drive greaterk that will in the early part of this year. i drive greater growth. ill in the early part of this year. i drive greater growth. and help drive greater growth. and if we get that, i think the game of who wins next election of who wins the next election starts to change quite dramatically. although how did feel shadow work feel when shadow. shadow work and pensions secretary jonathan ashworth think and pensions secretary jonathan ashwinth think and pensions secretary jonathan ashwinth week think and pensions secretary jonathan ashwinth week at think and pensions secretary jonathan ashwinth week at the think and pensions secretary jonathan ashwinth week at the centre nk tank in the week at the centre for social justice about what

labour would do about welfare. i mean, gave the kind speech mean, he gave the kind speech that you would have given . i that you would have given. i think already given it think i'd already given it actually . well, think the actually. well, i think the plagiarism , i think it's history plagiarism, i think it's history is never been an organisation favour either the conservatives or any other party. it's the organisation or that. how do you best help the poorest and the most deprived in society ? if most deprived in society? if people to come and join our people want to come and join our ideas? a direct appeal ideas? but it's a direct appeal to tory voters, isn't it? i mean, you only used to be map tanks on your lawn. you it tanks on your lawn. you have it today. he actually based almost all he what the all of what he said on what the csj had already written and argued the government. argued with the government. now the saying, well, the government is saying, well, we doing the same, we might end up doing the same, but that's the point of having an organisation like this end of social justice makes social justice who makes politicians face up to the reality is reality that change is necessary. how do you do it? how do you get more people back into work? obviously want to work? people obviously want to have your and have you with your four and a half hours affairs hat on the execution this uk iranian execution of this uk iranian national. the deputy defence minister there is obviously shocking. there's now talk in the papers about us re—entering

the papers about us re—entering the fray when it comes to the iran nuclear deal. what's your reaction to that? well i have some consider the iranian some time. consider the iranian nuclear deal is a bad deal. they've got everything out of it. they wanted and the rest of the world hasn't got. a hold on the world hasn't got. a hold on the nuclear developed . and so we the nuclear developed. and so we shouldn't do it. well, i would come out of it. i'd also personally i think it's time for us to sanction should have done it ago the. revolutionary it ages ago the. revolutionary guard. we've dragged our guard. why we've dragged our feet when others have it . feet when others have done it. and think we may even and finally, i think we may even consider bringing ambassador and finally, i think we may even consi(thank1ging ambassador and finally, i think we may even consi(thank you; ambassador and finally, i think we may even consi(thank you very 3assador and finally, i think we may even consi(thank you very muchior and finally, i think we may even consi(thank you very much for back. thank you very much for that. iain duncan smith will be speaking to john bercow next. but a quick .

break still plenty to come on today's show, including john live in the studio. but first, here's the news headlines with ray . it's 10 news headlines with ray. it's 10 am. on ray anderson in the gb news. and we can now cross to central london where in the last few minutes the metropolitan police have given a statement , police have given a statement, the shooting which the shooting yesterday, which six people, including two children. okay . great i'm jack

children. okay. great i'm jack rowlands . children. okay. great i'm jack rowlands. i'm the children. okay. great i'm jack rowlands . i'm the neighbourhood rowlands. i'm the neighbourhood superintendent for camden , and superintendent for camden, and i'm here to read your statement about the incident that happened yesterday , just before 1:30 pm. yesterday, just before 1:30 pm. yesterday, just before 1:30 pm. yesterday, we were called to reports of a shooting outside st aloysius church in phoenix road, camden officers responded with paramedics and a crew from the london ambulance . they found london ambulance. they found multiple people with caused by pellets from a shotgun. four women aged 21, 41, 48 and 54 were taken to central london hospitals where thankfully their injuries were assessed as , injuries were assessed as, non—life threatening the 48 year old woman has sustained potentially life changing injuries to children were also injured . a 12 year old girl injured. a 12 year old girl sustained leg injury. she was treated at hospital before being

discharged yesterday afternoon . discharged yesterday afternoon. she is expected to a full recovery . a seven year old girl recovery. a seven year old girl was more seriously injured. she remains in a hospital in hospital, in a stable but life threatening conditions . and our threatening conditions. and our thoughts are with her and her family . the incident took place family. the incident took place as mourners gathered outside the church . a funeral , we believe church. a funeral, we believe the suspects discharged a shotgun from a moving vehicle which was a black toyota chl likely a 2019 model or similar similar . likely a 2019 model or similar similar. this was a shocking incident and people came here to attend a funeral to be with friends and loved ones and mourn together instead . they were the together instead. they were the victims of a senseless act of violence . we know it will have violence. we know it will have

had a significant impact on communities across camden and we will have a visible police presence in the local area in the coming days and weeks to provide extra reassurance . and provide extra reassurance. and as your neighbour, superintendent i will ensure that will be happening . i come that will be happening. i come that will be happening. i come that we are doing everything we can to identify and bring to justice those who are responsible for this attack . the responsible for this attack. the investigate action is being led by met's specialist crime . we by met's specialist crime. we have a significant number of specialist detectives and local officers working around the clock, but we also need the public's help . we want to hear public's help. we want to hear from anyone who witnessed the incident or has information about it . your information could about it. your information could be vitally important , no matter be vitally important, no matter how insignificant you think it is . please how insignificant you think it is. please call how insignificant you think it is . please call the metropole is. please call the metropole police on 101 or crime stoppers

anonymously on 800 5111. thank you very much . superintendent you very much. superintendent jack rowlands there with a statement on that drive by shooting in euston in central london . we're on tv online and london. we're on tv online and on dab plus radio . you're on dab plus radio. you're watching and listening to gb news. back now to the camilla tominey show . tominey show. welcome we've got john bercow coming in about ten, 15 minutes. earlier today, i spoke to peter kyle. he's labour's shadow northern ireland secretary and i asked him how would labour deal , with this thorny issue of the northern ireland protocol . could northern ireland protocol. could we get a data across the line? got to get things like having

some of the fast track , some of some of the fast track, some of the goods that are going to go across from gb into northern ireland, only going to remain in northern ireland. we've always known the landing zone because it was 18 months ago the british government published its command paper. government published its command paper . it was government published its command paper. it was 15 months ago the eu published its command paper and enormous of and has an enormous amount of overlap. been the most overlap. this has been the most penod overlap. this has been the most period of negotiations where both parties agree the vast majority of it, but they haven't been able to something across the line and. that's because obviously the last year has been complete turmoil within the tory party in the governing party party and in the governing party here. and here. the government here and there's much time wasted there's been so much time wasted on factions and the on the internal factions and the three, three prime ministers, four chancellors, four budgets, they've not been over the with our partners and all ways always in this situation it northern ireland that suffers the most neglect in northern ireland from westminster from the government. here is the thing underpins all of the challenges that we now face in northern ireland neglect

from the tory government. so we need to make sure that we get a deal across the line that the prime minister and the secretary and any other minister in government needs have an government that needs to have an impact ireland, gets impact on northern ireland, gets over diligently over there and starts diligently rebuilding our politics. but what kind of deal is labour after? because we keir starmer in the week saying that he was willing to give the prime cover that labour would support any vote the tories might bring on the protocol but i think people watching this will keir starmer with somebody who tried to frustrate the brexit process and think that your compromise is actually a concession to the eu , that what we want is what the eu, the uk government said it would deliver 18 months ago in a come on paper is there. it's been published. we just want delivered and as big . so for delivered and as big. so for example the uk government said he wants to fast track the eu says he wants a green line. i mean it is it is literally this they can't get in in a room decide whether it's a fast track

or a lane that is what it has been. but there was a bit of concern. i think tim shipman's written about this today in the sunday times about term sunday times about the term green perhaps. i mean it green lane, perhaps. i mean it might sound like semantics, you know, looking like it's too far in fein's and therefore in sinn fein's and therefore they want to avoid colour green because they're concerned about people prefer the people who might prefer the colour . get that colour orange. and i get that you and i can resolve that one here right now . why is it taking here right now. why is it taking 18 months for the government in the eu to get together to solve the eu to get together to solve the problem? but you must also accept that has been in accept that the eu has been in tragedy on. hasn't it? tragedy on. this, hasn't it? sometimes some of these checks that they're trying to carry out, instance, sandwiches out, for instance, on sandwiches going the uk and going between the uk and northern ireland is absolutely they've duck their heels unnecessarily. many people think, because they're trying to punish the british for brexit both sides need to get into a room and negotiate state craft diligence and graft . those are diligence and graft. those are the things that's going to solve these problems. what really worries me is i mean, you mentioned sandwiches. i think

it's a really example. you know, the previous generation led by tony blair westminster, but tony blair from westminster, but had you had these had bertie ahern, you had these thans had bertie ahern, you had these titans trimble titans john hume, david trimble , in northern ireland who they came together and delivered peace , they literally ended . on peace, they literally ended. on the of ireland this generation can't get together , get a can't get together, get a sandwich from britain into northern ireland. i know it's not just a uk problem isn't that's also down to the eu being quite difficult about this entire issue because they're using the protocol as a stick with which to beat the british. there is no question that both sides needed to give. now what's interesting is that the eu has changed some quite fundamental points on this. you know, for example , some of the some of example, some of the some of the, you know, the fast track and some of their way of getting goods northern line is goods into northern line is going to stay. they've shown some claim, know, quite some claim, you know, quite remarkable that remarkable flexibility now that they year ago. they weren't showing a year ago. now once now that's been unlocked once liz truss way and james cleverly came in and then suddenly the what they called mood music

changed we know that diligent changed so we know that diligent negotiation nation can deliver of when negotiations break down sides move more to extreme positions. they move apart . positions. they move apart. we're seeing it right now with the strikes . we're seeing it the strikes. we're seeing it right now. we're going to show it, but we're seeing it in the way the government acts. so that it drives policies further . so it drives policies further. so then therefore, you might agree that the likes of chris heaton—harris and steve baker deserve congratulations for actually breaking this impasse. finally with a meeting last week and another meeting, we and now another meeting, we understand, i'm understand, tomorrow. well, i'm not congratulate until not going to congratulate until they back in 18 they bring the deal back in 18 months. being taken months. details being taken out of deep freeze, let's put it of the deep freeze, let's put it that but don't know that that way. but we don't know that yet every we yet because every time we know, even the is changed even the language is changed from last week. last week was really good. sign that james cleverly on a plane and went cleverly got on a plane and went over to belfast to meet parties a poor the two of a really poor sign the two of the or one of the the parties or one of the parties wasn't allowed go in parties wasn't allowed to go in with delegation. they chose with the delegation. they chose and of other and therefore one of the other parties refused even talking parties refused go even talking though lou though sinn fein mary lou mcdonald being allowed at

mcdonald not being allowed at the would you have her the table. would you have her there? well, myself and keir starmer went into northern ireland for two and a half days last and we did meet with last week and we did meet with them because a thing them because this is a thing about northern ireland. is about northern ireland. it is not. you have them not. would you have invited them to meeting that they would to that meeting that they would want do if you don't want you do if you don't necessarily invite the british government doesn't get choose government doesn't get to choose who different who turns up in different delegations. key delegations. this is the key thing about northern ireland, which decide we're which when they do decide we're talking about a territory, well, hang to say this is the don't hang on to say this is the don't pretend northern is pretend that northern ireland is like the united like the rest of the united kingdom. or indeed no. but you're about 25th you're talking about the 25th anniversary friday anniversary of the good friday agreement therefore , agreement signed and therefore, presumably, in order for this to work , all sides to be work, all sides need to be represented negotiate and represented and negotiate and mary mcdonald , what i want mary lou mcdonald, what i want to know your view on this afternoon on to northern ireland. i'm flying to derry londonderry. that's a city we are used to names for. this is not a sort of that is like anywhere else in the united kingdom. and yes, we have city that two different communities call to different names and the same with our politics, you

know. so yes, we wanted to meet or the government wanted to meet a delegation from sinn fein. they turned with somebody who they turned up with somebody who they perceive on their terms is somebody is president sinn somebody who is president sinn fein for the island of ireland . fein for the island of ireland. now, that's important for the way they view their politics, the way we got good good friday agreement over the line. mr. ross aspect the different communities perceive their identities ways on identities in different ways on the of ireland so to not the island of ireland so to not allow progress be made because the british government goes in with a preconception from westminster which is existential to one community in northern ireland, and to allow that to be the barrier to making progress on a key political in northern ireland with the protocol is absolutely it's a failure of statecraft, but not just i think across on a high level it's a failure of statecraft. 101 okay. well, let's talk about gridlock in another sense mentioned strikes earlier. obviously, this this spirit of convivial party coming across from keir starmer

. he says he wants to help rishi sunak get this vote across with regard to the northern ireland protocol that you received from the unions , you've got a close the unions, you've got a close relationship with barons, if we can still call them that. why aren't labour helping when it comes to trying to stop these strikes? nurses going strikes? i've got nurses going off on wednesday. off again on wednesday. thursday. got again threat thursday. we've got again threat of a teacher's strike. why aren't using your statecraft aren't using your own statecraft to help with that? because we're not in government . only not in government. only government influence over in government can influence over in the unions that are paying a lot of a lot of money. and the party itself, a lot of not only government, only ministers who are elected , the british people are elected, the british people and come from parliament can negotiate behalf of the negotiate on behalf of the country and the treasury government. so if the government negotiate with the unions if the government cannot create the conditions where workers can go to work and they're satisfied with work and the conditions in work and also the pay if they can't do that. and of course, there is a way that they can get there is a way that they can get the labour party in and the labour party to come in and say, look across cross—party

alliance on northern. why not on strikes. no, you're there, you're at the shop and you're friends with these you know full well northern ireland is, well at northern ireland is, a very issue. the peace. very specific issue. the peace. northern hard won. northern ireland was hard won. the northern ireland the peace in northern ireland needs be maintained actually needs to be maintained actually the stand the labour party doesn't stand candidates northern ireland candidates in northern ireland right now because we want to make sure that we can play the honest broker for all of northern ireland so that we can go represent all communities go in, represent all communities geographically, of northern geographically, all of northern ireland all cultures as well ireland and all cultures as well . very important thing to the labour that we do this. so labour party that we do this. so when to help get a when we say going to help get a deal across the line in northern that would heal and help that that would heal and help northern move forward. it northern island move forward. it would that we would respect the way that we should in should be doing things in westminster. from westminster. okay. neglect from westminster. okay. neglect from westminster sure westminster is start making sure that northern alliance moving backwards than forwards backwards rather than forwards just are happy to help just yes, we are happy to help other ways constructively. of course votes rishi course we've votes to rishi sunak recent in recent months sunak in recent in recent months in other and these in other areas and these rejected talk about rejected these just talk about labour finally the labour labour party finally the labour party is doing very well in the polls, 27 points ahead and yet

starmer's are proving rating, approval still isn't approval rating still isn't brilliant, according to a yougov poll, 41% think he's doing a bad job, 46% don't think that he looks like a pm in waiting. so the party's good, but the is bad peter as a proper you can't say the leader is bad. we know, we know everything we know from absolute history. the election that if the public didn't respect the leader we wouldn't be doing so well in the polls. so the two are absolutely linked together. keir starmer is a diligent, he is a he draw lives forward progress in the labor party seemingly he is because we said we are 27 points below the he wasn't i don't think virtually all are out there are looking specifically at individuals in the in the top team saying great we go for leader because of that we're going the labour party going to go for the labour party because that one person. because of that one person. we are a team key or is very, very good at driving a team. the labour has changed labour party has changed profoundly last couple of profoundly the last couple of years what keir years because of what keir starmer done to us. what he starmer has done to us. what he has we do. he's raised

has insisted we do. he's raised the standards and the bar for. what's expected from us . we are what's expected from us. we are ahead. what's expected from us. we are ahead . we are ahead because of ahead. we are ahead because of keir, not in spite of him. well, goodin keir, not in spite of him. well, good in belfast this week. again, thank. thanks so much. thanks well, that was peter kyle talking to me earlier. now i'm joined by john bercow , former joined by john bercow, former speaker of the house of commons, john good morning. good morning to you . thank you joining to you. thank you for joining me. cross the nettle me. let's cross the nettle instantly. you've been described as both a serial liar , a serial as both a serial liar, a serial bully by this commons investigation . you've not been investigation. you've not been allowed to have a parliamentary pass. i've never asked for one. so this idea that you've been banned from westminster at walk me through that and you reaction to how you've been labelled. it is extraordinary for people watching being watching you go from being speaker the house commons, speaker of the house commons, very and indeed very prominent and indeed recognisable figure in westminster to effectively not being able get into the building. i've not been banned from westminster. the from westminster. that's the first the second point is first point. the second point is that i was told that i couldn't have parliamentary pass. have a parliamentary pass. camilla ask

camilla i didn't ask for a parliamentary pass. so it's a completely toothless , completely toothless, meaningless, absurd and implausible sanction . thirdly, implausible sanction. thirdly, what i would say to you is , what i would say to you is, look, i'm not without flaw or blemish is human, made my fair share of mistakes . but i don't share of mistakes. but i don't believe that i bullied anyone in any way, anywhere , at any time. any way, anywhere, at any time. and when it was suggested that i had lied many things have been said about the over the years. but not that i'm other than straightforward and candid. i haven't lied about anything. and i don't believe that i bullied anyone. i think perhaps the most significant thing to say is this it an amateurish rant shackle who , hopelessly flawed process who, hopelessly flawed process of investigation undertaken into me the most important point resulting from it is that those historic investor nations of matters going back nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14 years indeed these ceased after my case. so

everybody now is capable being investigated only if a complaint is made within 12 months. i have people making allegations about what i did or didn't say unwitnessed in a room a decade or more . it's unwitnessed in a room a decade or more. it's an unwitnessed in a room a decade or more . it's an absurd process or more. it's an absurd process of no wait or i think you've called it kafkaesque in piece of the press. the telegraph to say it's a kangaroo court is a very marked insult to kangaroo. let me just put you quote that catherine stone , who was the catherine stone, who was the parliamentary standards commissioner, she actually spoke to the times yesterday and she said, so give me a wry smile to myself. mr. appointed me and he forgot . say that in his many and forgot. say that in his many and various interviews where he was critical of me. so we appointed me knowing very well that i already had a reputation for being independent, impartial thorough and fair. there is an irony here that you brought down by the very woman you appointed. i appointed and i never sought to hide the fact that i appointed her. so when stone

says with a wry that i neglected to point out , i didn't neglect to point out, i didn't neglect to point out, i didn't neglect to point out it wasn't germane to point out it wasn't germane to any of the interviews that i undertook. question who undertook. the question of who her irrelevant to the her is totally irrelevant to the fairness or otherwise of the process that was undertake . it process that was undertake. it was a lousy process , amateurish. was a lousy process, amateurish. she conducted , ill conceived and she conducted, ill conceived and abandoned after my case . that is abandoned after my case. that is the brutal, simple and incontestable reality of the matter . so incontestable reality of the matter. so she's had her say and i've answered her conclusively in terms talking about brutal realities. you did . and stop realities. you did. and stop brexit, didn't you ? speaker know brexit, didn't you? speaker know many watching this will think that you very much tried to frustrate at least the process actually when you said no, there couldn't be another vote because we've already had a meaningful vote , got people on the tory vote, got people on the tory right tear their hair out. you thinking that you're not impartial . we know that you've impartial. we know that you've got stickers on the back of your car talking about this is all

sincere . i mean, you were not sincere. i mean, you were not remainer doubt sincere . this is remainer doubt sincere. this is all no doubt sincere. camilla but it suffers from the disadvantage of without exception being completely wrong . you must not remainer. let me answer the point about the three votes. yes and you say that i angered to the point of enormous consternation the conservative right in that there couldn't be a third vote. no sorry, that's not correct. the government annoyed about it actually . jacob annoyed about it actually. jacob rees—mogg as the record will attest , was all rees—mogg as the record will attest, was all in favour of my on that matter. and so were a very large number of brexiteers. what i was simply saying is that theresa may cannot seek to bamboozle the house and beat it over the head by continue really putting to the house a proposition in defiance of the same question convention. again again and again. so that wasn't being ridiculed. i mean, your earlier, your only human, you obviously have this visceral of brexit. you said that it was the

biggest mistake that had been made since the second world. i said it was most cross foreign policy in the post—war policy blunder in the post—war penod policy blunder in the post—war period think how period. privately think that how on earth can you carry out role when you're meant to be impartial clearly your whole opinion on the issue is totally screwed . totally skewed. no the screwed. totally skewed. no the logic of that argument, it came later and i know you've got a job to do is that anybody in order to be speaker has never previously had or does not entertain an opinion the issue for speaker is not that he or she has never had an opinion about anything but that he or she discharges the duty of the office of speaker fairly impartially , dispassionately and impartially, dispassionately and with a view to ensuring that all views are represented. and that's exactly what i did on brexit, if you cast your mind back and i know you've got a keen historical sense of these matters to 2013, you will be well aware of the john barron amendment tabled the queen's speech by the conservative member of parliament for billericay john barron. that was

an amendment to the queen's speech calling for a national referendum on british membership of the european union. i selected that amendment. yes, if i was this unfair, i'll trim frustrate the brexiteers all costs character as which you try to typecast . i wouldn't have to typecast. i wouldn't have selected it . i do what gb views selected it. i do what gb views might . why didn't i do it? i did might. why didn't i do it? i did it because i thought it was the fair thing do so it was fair to the when they a strong minority within the game party. i did the same for the remaining me put this after 2016 and that's what the brexiteers let me put this to you. did you quite like being at the centre of that story. i say this because i'm going quote your biographer here, but b friedman described you as having no chance any approach. burko is somebody who has always loved being the centre of attention. aren't you a bit of a show off and that's why you made such splash during the brexit debate? i did what i thought was right

so the answers of that is yes, i am a bit of a show off. i think most politicians are to a degree and if you say, oh, do you like the sound, mellifluous or otherwise of your own voice, i plead guilty that do i talk too much? i plead guilty to that. was i unfair ? no. did i try to was i unfair? no. did i try to do the right thing at all times by all parts of the house and shades of opinion ? i did so shades of opinion? i did so relentlessly for over ten years and i make the point again. it is quite an important point whether people agree with it or not. but what i was seeking do cabella was not to frustrate. to impede , to prevent brexit. what impede, to prevent brexit. what i was seeking to do was to facilitate the house of commons in the discharge of its function. it wasn't the speaker to support mary nixon or to prevent i say this. wasn't there a little bit of an attempt to humiliate boris johnson because you just don't like him ? i'm

you just don't like him? i'm sorry. when and where did i seek to get . i mean, what did i say to get. i mean, what did i say to get. i mean, what did i say to you to try to keep this idea that he was to deliver brexit, this ready made of a made deal and that he his entire premise was on the basis of delivering the brexit that theresa may couldn't. and i just wonder on a personal level did you dislike bofis personal level did you dislike boris johnson. no the contrary. in fact , why should i've been in fact, why should i've been out to get boris. he was foreign secretary and he and i got on very well. he was always very amicable and good natured. he ianed amicable and good natured. he invited me to, the foreign office residence , and we played office residence, and we played tennis together. i had the very great and delectable joy of meeting him. six love, six love, six love. and we had a very convivial lunch. i don't i put it. i had no to feel any animus him at all. can i ask you that he tried do was to humiliate house of commons by proroguing parliament and i remind you just in case you just i was there i was when she read out reading witness by brooch 11 nil. what i

got to know and it was a football match you'll think that's a good result. however on the subject of boris , okay, let the subject of boris, okay, let me put it a different way. you obviously speak of the house of commons you witnessed much parliamentary talent and that perhaps lack . who do you think perhaps a lack. who do you think has been the worst prime minister served while ? you minister who served while? you were a common speaker over country boris johnson was country mile. boris johnson was the prime minister. why is he that? i feel personal hostility to him. i didn't. why did you think he was did you not think he fit for office? no, he was fit for office? no, i didn't think he was fit for office. thought he was immoral . office. thought he was immoral. unethical. i'm focussed utterly devoid of any coherent or plan for the country he spoke all seminary part . he is, i think seminary part. he is, i think without doubt the worst public speaker of any prime minister i heard i've never known so mumbling in his speech. no and useless. he made one good speech, one good speech made a rousing brexit when he left as foreign secretary and over chequers. no he made a very poor

quality. what you're orator in the house from , the backbenches. the house from, the backbenches. he made the worst speech. i was your favourite speaker in the house by the time all of the time that you were there favourite public speaker, the prime parliamentarian. prime minister parliamentarian. even prime ministerial even if prime yes, ministerial or otherwise . i say that or otherwise. i would say that the best debater i ever heard in the best debater i ever heard in the house of commons was robin cook close , followed by ken cook close, followed by ken clarke and malcolm rifkind. but i would say robin was the most debater i ever heard in terms of sheer fluency he came into. i would say, the best public speaken would say, the best public speaker. he wasn't good a debater. i heard was tony benn. yes. and there is a difference which may or may not interest listeners and viewers . robin listeners and viewers. robin wasn't quite the orator that tony benn , but robin was tony benn, but robin was formidable in the interstices debate. he was the quickest witted he the sharpest. he was the most excruciatingly painful to be attacked by in debate .

to be attacked by in debate. tony wasn't really interested in debate. often he would say to people trying to interrupt, you were an incredible gentleman . were an incredible gentleman. nobody can to catch mr. nobody can try to catch mr. i knew that i didn't develop . my knew that i didn't develop. my own argument, if you don't mind and he would just go on with a absolutely uninterrupted flow of majestic eloquence and speaking about you just because you're talking about labour and tory mps there . what is it with this mps there. what is it with this damascene conversion you've had, which seems to be counter intuitive, you've gone from being quite hard right to left as you've got older. that's not the way it's meant to work. john you meant to become more right wing as you older. so since camilla tominey so gb views think there's a quote about having a heart and a brain and it's that you know this to be true so you've become more left wing as you go what's that all about? i think that after long penod about? i think that after long period of reflection and the experience of , electoral experience of, electoral wipe—outs of the conservative party , i came to the conclusion

party, i came to the conclusion that the conservative party was wrong headed several fronts. so it wasn't a damascene conversion. it was a process of gradual evolution , of political gradual evolution, of political thinking from being right wing to seeing the shortcomings and weaknesses of a hard right position in terms of the damage to you can call services like the level of inequality. and so the level of inequality. and so the conservative party fell under rishi conservative party has moved right over a period of many years rishi and jeremy hunt are presenting a different face to the conservative party from that present by boris johnson or liz truss. but deep down they are the party of the hard right, the conservative party is unregulated usable from the party of heath or even to some of thatcher and certainly is why people like heseltine, chris patten , etc. find it so patten, etc. find it so difficult days to say anything positive about their former

party. it's let's you relationship now with labour have you been suspended by labour. have you been suspended by labour . well have you been suspended by labour. well there was a suspension at the time. i'm a subscription to led party, but i'm not involved in active politics, so i come on, show your kind. i know that you've come. delighted to do that, but i'm very much in the capacity of a commentator. if you look me in the eye, camilla, and to me, you know. john have you got some plan behind your furrowed brow to? arrange your return to frontline ? i have absolutely no frontline? i have absolutely no one. tell me what to do . one. tell me what to do. obviously, it's quite . but you obviously, it's quite. but you haven't been given a peerage. you're not in the house of lords. are you now advocating labour's policy of abolishing the house of lords? i think the labour party wants to get rid of the house of lords as it currently stands and to replace it else. it with something else. and i think there's lot to be said think there's a lot to be said for that. position that, as for that. my position that, as you say i have moved you rightly say i have moved leftwards over the years. i would like to see and i very much that will see not be much hope that i will see not be allowed in the house of lords. well, i made it clear that if

i'd been invited to go to the house lords, would have house of lords, i would have done hasn't happened. i done so. that hasn't happened. i mean it. simon johnson is, i think, appointed a 29 year old spad of and not you spad to the house of and not you look, not trophy hunter look, i'm not a trophy hunter and would hope even my and i would hope that even my most acerbic critics would accept that in office, for example over a decade as speaken example over a decade as speaker, i to do things i attempted to make a difference. yes i went to the first coalition. i tried to reform the house to make it more lively, more dynamic, more interrogative , more contemporary, more relevant. and i tried to reform the way we operated across the parliament estate. so i did all sorts of things to make the place more child friendly, more focussed on young people, to build a relationship with civil society and so on. but there are people who are in public life, hopefully minority pursuit , hopefully minority in pursuit, baubles in pursuit of status , baubles in pursuit of status, issues, of accolades that me what i'm concerned is trying to do things that make a difference. what do i do now? i

do a lot of public speaking gb news and i work as an academic lecturer at london university. i come on gb news to talk to very agreeable people like you, and we have an even camilla, i mean, studying that we haven't even been to tennis. you i'm tennis. thank you that john it's the news headlines with ray addison . so 1030 on radisson in the gb newsroom. police have urged witnesses to come forward after six people were shot in a drive by shooting in north london yesterday . the seven year old yesterday. the seven year old girl remains hospital in a stable but life threatening condition. four women and a 12 year old girl were treated hospital with a 48 year old suffering life injuries. the suspects are believed to have used a shotgun . a funeral in used a shotgun. a funeral in euston . superintendent jack euston. superintendent jack rowlands has described the incident as shocking . people incident as shocking. people came here to attend a funeral.

to be with friends and loved ones , mourn together. instead ones, mourn together. instead they were the victims of a senseless act of violence . we senseless act of violence. we know it have had a significant impact on communities across and we will have police presence in the local area in the coming days and weeks at least . 64 days and weeks at least. 64 people have now died following plane crash in nepal. the country's worst aviation disaster in five years. the aviation authority says 72 people were on board the yeti airlines flight which crashed in pushkar during clear skies . pushkar during clear skies. local television showed thick smoke billowing from the crash site as hundreds of rescue workers scoured the hillside. those on board included passengers from india island , passengers from india island, australia and france . the health australia and france. the health secretary has reportedly told unions he's willing talk about improved pay all nhs staff. except doctors according the

observer newspaper unison chief says steve barclay's tone has been very different to negotiate sessions so far. he now wants to persuade the treasury to offer pay persuade the treasury to offer pay rises. it comes . nurses pay rises. it comes. nurses threaten to double down on strike efforts in february if don't progress . we're on tv , don't progress. we're on tv, onune don't progress. we're on tv, online and on dab+ radio . you online and on dab+ radio. you are watching and listening to gb news. back now to club .

welcome back. well we've had ideas. we've had peter , we've ideas. we've had peter, we've had john bercow. i am dying to hear what the people's panel makes of all this. and if you're out these in birmingham, what are they saying? olivia hello, camilla. we are back in birmingham . camilla. we are back in birmingham. i'm going to camilla. we are back in birmingham . i'm going to head birmingham. i'm going to head over to our people's panel just here to find out what they made

of all of that. so i will start with you, sylvia. what did you make of that interview with john barker? with him when barker? i disagree with him when he said as a speaker he was impartial and fair. what i do with when he said he was a bit of a showman , agree with that. of a showman, agree with that. and like most politics, he was full of bluster. and like most politics, he was full of bluster . thank you very full of bluster. thank you very much, sylvia. tony did you agree with anything you had to say? absolutely no. well, i don't know what azza said. be honest, because i think it's a typical it's the problem of westminster politics politicians. they're opportunists. what opportunists. i don't know what any stand for. and i, i any of them stand for. and i, i mean, mentioned fact the mean, mentioned the fact the conservatives right . conservatives are hard right. but royal mail. liberals but not the royal mail. liberals were cut from the same cloth. i don't really don't know where these people stand. thanks very much, tony. the stock of that. and what about you, jay? what do you mean? well, to be fair, dunng you mean? well, to be fair, during the brexit process, when i look back, the brexit process, he did not do job as speaker he did not do his job as speaker as best as he can. he did not stay impartial, but he's right.

he did a bit of show off and i believe more believe he's more like a comedian from westminster than an actual politician, as he should be . thank you for that should be. thank you for that friendly laugh from, jay. and finally, last but not least about you, mark. yeah, think about you, mark. yeah, i think john represents john bercow represents everything that's wrong with westminster totally . westminster politics totally. out touch. dodged questions out of touch. dodged questions by talking about tennis matches with boris johnson and he just represents everything to suggest that the conservatives are hard . you couldn't put a cigarette pipe . you couldn't put a cigarette pipe between the conservatives labour at the moment and i just think that, you know , it's think that, you know, it's typical that the things that we talked about earlier don't affect the politicians . you affect the politicians. you know, we talked about the rail strikes . you know, rishi sunak strikes. you know, rishi sunak gets a private jet instead . gets a private jet instead. yeah. you know, things like that. that's a glaring tendency to get. absolutely. yeah well, thank you so much. thank you so much for people's panel. and that's in that's it from here in birmingham. for backs coming up, i think in the studio. birmingham. for backs coming up, i think in the studio . thank you i think in the studio. thank you very much for that, olivia. i

love that there's not a cigarette paper between star and sunak that's probably most people's impression of the current. let's go back to michael quick now veteran journalist , michael quick now veteran journalist, my paper reviewer. i just want your reaction to the bercow interview simply you've written books about all sorts of characters. alex fergus and jeffrey archer are own nigel farage. i mean, you need to do a book on bercow don't. he's an interesting character. there have been several books of bercow already, including one which points that i recommended he should go and put bets on his own as speaker, get a friend to put bets. right. it was meant as a joke at the time when i recommended to him way back in 2009, i discovered a few years ago in one of these books by sebastian , i think it is, but sebastian, i think it is, but actually he did that. he got a guide from lambeth council to go around putting bets on him in order to improve his look in the betting lists and who was ? the betting lists and who was? the guy? a guy called michael keegan, the husband of the education secretary, gillian keegan . i do think that

keegan. i do think that interview, by the way, that brilliant impression . tony benn, brilliant impression. tony benn, you need to get him back on the show christmas and get show before christmas and get him to do all his impressions. he the most brilliant mimic, as good bremner. he can good as rory bremner. he can make jordan barker on unlikely. i do . but it's funny, isn't it? i do. but it's funny, isn't it? why he might motivate actions like you dealt with people kind of come to the end of their parliament entry career and then what do they next? he's caught between the devil and the deep blue sea a bit. he's he's blue sea a bit. well, he's he's in trouble they won't in trouble because they won't they him the they won't even let him in the building, which i think is absurd. they should let him in the building and government the building and the government should a peerage or it should give him a peerage or it may wait for a labour may have to wait for a labour government to happen. government for that to happen. of should go in the of course he should go in the lords. i think. he was lords. i do think. he was a bully. there's enough evidence of many have of that. so many people have said it both on the record and off the record. i do think i voted remain. but i do think he was biased and not all time, but overall and you know, i don't think he should have voted while

he was a speaker. he admitted to. but i also think he was a great great reforming speaker. and that is i hope what he will be remembered for in terms of backbench rights in terms of calling much more regularly women's writing them babies stories. and he went out that promoted parliament and democracy and around the country he did so many different things his record is tainted but it is a very good record . terms of a very good record. terms of reform. agreed. thank you very much. michael, will you come back ? please do come back to back? please do come back to centrist friend. lovely to see you.thank centrist friend. lovely to see you. thank you very much. that's michael crick . just before we go michael crick. just before we go to my next so let's just read out a few of your emails. don't forget, you can get in touch with us on the gb news website. alan labour always do same. alan labour always do the same. they say what the they constantly say what the government wrong and government are doing wrong and what do better, what they could do better, but they ever provide that they never, ever provide that pie sky solution. getting pie in the sky solution. getting a room is not a viable solution. is says so glad . ian

is and mark says so glad. ian has been made a politically i can't think of an issue i haven't agreed with him on, which is something a miracle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl is something a miracle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl wishymething a miracle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl wish boris ng a miracle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl wish boris had a miracle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl wish boris had broughtcle. haven't agreed with him on, vijusl wish boris had brought in. i just wish boris had brought in closer advise on brexit and closer to advise on brexit and moves forward so much opportunity lost. well, yeah. i think perhaps although he was party leader, some people may regard on the right serene duncan—smith to be the best prime minister we never had. but anyway, thank you to all my guests i'm delighted guests so far. i'm now delighted to joined cliff allen. he's to be joined cliff allen. he's a retired major, the army who trained the brits on how to use the challenger tanks that rishi sunakis the challenger tanks that rishi sunak is now suggested going to be to ukraine. he had be giving to ukraine. he had a telephone conversation with president zelenskyy just before the weekend. and i think we've around tanks . but my around a dozen tanks. but my question to you, major , is, is question to you, major, is, is this a good policy ? first of this a good policy? first of all, you trained our troops on these tanks. how they work, how are they crew just think to us in layman's terms about how tanks work. okay. i mean, i didn't try to pull my own. there was i of of a team that was i was of a of a team that trained them to and do their various operations. so basically

, this is when someone joins the army and decides that they want to in a tank they to be in a tank regiment, they 90, to be in a tank regiment, they go, of to all, called go, first of to all, called bafic go, first of to all, called basic phase one basic training or phase one training, which takes about 14 to 20 weeks, that teaches them how to march up down, walk in a straight line , tie the boot straight line, tie the boot laces and all that sort of stuff. basics every single person does that. like when they join the army , they then go to join the army, they then go to special to arm training, which is called phase training. and in the case of the royal tank regiment, other armoured corps regiments , go bovingdon regiments, they go to bovingdon camp. is there camp. yes, it is there where they their training basically they do their training basically . what should happen always happen? well, what should happen is that someone starts life as tank crewman, as a driver. yes. okay. so they are first and foremost trained as a driver. okay. so they are first and foremost trained as a driver . a foremost trained as a driver. a course of about seven weeks. they then move on to become the gunner another seven weeks the loader operator, another perhaps 5 to 7 weeks. and then they will become a commander. the commanders course is again about seven weeks. this makes because

it's going every role in the troops. however the major alan, you keep on seven weeks, seven weeks and weeks. it's going to take months to train ukrainians on these tanks . yeah. so. so on these tanks. yeah. so. so what i think's going happen with ukraine? i no way of ukraine? i have no way of knowing is true, but i knowing if this is true, but i would assume that they're would assume is that they're going their their going to take their their soldiers are already soldiers that are already tank crewmen, pretty crewmen, albeit on a pretty bafic crewmen, albeit on a pretty basic tank. now, a challenger is a very capable machine. yes, it is complex and it's very, very capable . is it also extremely . capable. is it also extremely. but in order to keep it moving and working , the crew have to and working, the crew have to maintain it all of the time. that's beauty of doing all of those crew roles . so we sending those crew roles. so we sending out troops to help train them on these tanks or just handing these tanks or just handing these tanks or just handing these tanks over? right. i would expect . and again, i don't know, expect. and again, i don't know, but i would that if we intend to send 12 tanks to ukraine, which is an incredibly small number, by the way, does that touch sides? i mean, with somebody the news in the week saying we probably need hundred? well, i

what the ukrainians need is a lot of tanks what they don't needis lot of tanks what they don't need is a lot of different sorts of tanks . yes. that creates of tanks. yes. that creates problems all of its own. so logistic and supply and repair and maintenance of the vehicles becomes much more difficult if you've lots of different types. now i'm clearly not a politician, but i my view is that what they're trying to do is encourage the to use their leopard to tanks. leopard two is a much it's equally ordered it is quite a lethal machine , but is quite a lethal machine, but it is not as complex as the challenger two nor as capable, frankly. so should we be sending better tanks. or do we not have we don't have any better tanks. challenger two is probably the best i hear this a lot best tank. i hear this a lot from types. i mean, our from military types. i mean, our own capability. it's not it's been eroded hasn't it? are you concerned as a military man that we don't have our own defences. i should be sending i think we should be sending tanks ukraine don't get me tanks to ukraine don't get me wrong. yes, often i speak wrong. yes, but often i speak to people an interview setting people in an interview setting who the military and who are from the military and they seem particularly

they don't seem particularly confident in what we've got our own hardware, so to speak , any own hardware, so to speak, any military be able to say that we haven't got enough or we need more. the beauty of the british army that do whatever they army is that do whatever they tell over in and house tell us to do over in and house over there. so if they tell us to go to take 12 tanks to ukraine, we will take 12 tanks ukraine, we will take 12 tanks ukraine train people to use ukraine and train people to use them. expect crews them. i would expect that crews are already in the uk if they're not, there be shortly being not, there will be shortly being trained know trained involving. i don't know that for sure, but that's what is the is, it's is happening. the point is, it's a gesture this but it's a great gesture this but it's going to take long for it to going to take two long for it to make an effective difference the short they're short term. well, they're not going tomorrow morning going turn up tomorrow morning and you and enter into fight. and, you know, an incredible know, tanks is an incredible a very small number of vehicles to get in a tank battle. get involved in a tank battle. to be honest, is pointless . i to be honest, is pointless. i think it's a gesture. i think a suggestion that might be worth making if we are to get the germans, others to give leppard. and that's a good idea . okay. and that's a good idea. okay. thank you very much. may very well you for joining thank you very much. may very well you forjoining me. coming up, we're going to be doing our

generation gap segment. it's going to be about generational wealth. i look forward to wealth. so i look forward to that. but first, a short.

break welcome back. well, coming up at 11 is michael portillo, former defence secretary and gb news presenter . defence secretary and gb news presenter. michael, what have you got on the show today? camilla congratulations on your second show. i was watching john bercow earlier. what did . what bercow earlier. what did. what did you make of his claim that he conservative party has never been so right wing. the party that introduced marriage the party that now has record levels taxation public spending. taxation and public spending. could make heads tails of could make heads or tails of that ? no. and could make heads or tails of that? no. and i thought that you might have a reaction to that being perhaps not on the right of party, michael. of the party, michael. extraordinary, fascinating extraordinary, but a fascinating nonetheless. i tell you this about , john bercow him or about, john bercow like him or loathe he's a character he loathe and he's a character he

is remember when he to is and i remember when he was to the right me. i do think i do the right of me. i do think i do . there's been movement to the left both by john and by the conservative party, actually. but moved further than but he has moved further than the conservative party . and by the conservative party. and by the conservative party. and by the way, human rights , i see the way, human rights, i see that harry had a good bash at you in his book. yes, he did. and i did write a column in yesterday's telegraph suggesting that can i quote the late queen and say, michael, that can i quote the late queen and say, michael , recollections and say, michael, recollections may vary . i and say, michael, recollections may vary. i think it's a good quote . her late majesty gave us quote. her late majesty gave us a good quote to use again. and you also very kindly about my show. we're going to be talking freedom of speech. we've the andrew bridgen case . and of andrew bridgen case. and of course, we've also got shamima begum, who's got a ten part podcast on the bbc . i'll be podcast on the bbc. i'll be talking to steve hadley from the rmt and i'm going to be talking about the ethics of artificial intelligence . now that there's intelligence. now that there's a programme could write your introduction and mine and also essays school students . we can't

essays school students. we can't have that. we can't put our amazing producers out of work. thank you, michael. tune portillo from 11 now. delighted to bring back. it is my favourite this but it's probably because i invent it. it's i mean that pseudo my ego doing the rounds but it's called generation gap and we're going to be talking about generational wealth intergenerational wealth with my two guests i'm joined by chris hope , my telegraph chris hope, my telegraph colleague. i'm not going say your name, chris. i'm just going to generation x right . to say your generation x right. there you are. and i've got adam jokey and you are a millennium, a millennial. jokey and you are a millennium, a millennial . think so, adam? i a millennial. think so, adam? i think so. so you're investing 31 and chris just out. oh, your first one. oh, i just oh, we are. i just it's over 50. oh right rings brings just me. thank you. and obviously has beenin thank you. and obviously has been in the news now the front of the times this tuesday is what is a number of other papers run with this story suggesting the over fifties be exempt from income tax as a way of getting people back into work. this is

how it was covered by mail online. look at exempt tin capital so that this is an outrage since the mail online and obviously you're both from two different generations so have this out adam when it comes to this idea , income tax, i to this idea, income tax, i mean, is this just preposterous alleviating over 50 to come back into work? i'd like to know what happens to over 50 who remained in work. they have to pay income tax, but over to have retired and then change mind can come back. what do you think i definitely that government definitely think that government need to think again . any need to think again. any suggestion that this would be a goodideai suggestion that this would be a good idea i mean, there's no doubt that the economy is difficult times young people to be front line and facing be on the front line and facing some the harsh effects of some of the harsh effects of recent years. any idea we recent years. and any idea we would exempt some of the older spectrum , i think would be spectrum, i think would be dangerous. i mean, your your your labour used to be mayor of hanngey your labour used to be mayor of haringey you must appreciate that these sorts of policies that these sorts of policies that to appeal to millennials

like you potentially going to win the whoever wins the next general election. yeah mean look i think we need to whoever going to form this government has to have a set of policies that plays to and provides for all parts of our community all parts of our country. and i think that does require a sensible , does require a sensible, thoughtful approach. and i'm not quite sure this covers that. chris well, as a gen xer type me on, i mean i think that the what it that policy is doing is trying to they're worried about 30,000 million over who 30,000 half million over who left the workforce during covid. they were probably felt they could mental health reasons maybe it could be to do with not why am i working so when i paid off my mortgage, what am i doing here? so it's targeted narrowly that because are that cohort because they are worried productivity. worried about productivity. we'll this from we'll see more from this from jeremy this that's why jeremy hunt. this that's why he's it. so i can see why he's doing it. so i can see why they're doing it. i think isolation looks bit strange to isolation looks a bit strange to let of income tax but let the of income tax but they're to them back they're trying to get them back to yeah and there's to work. yeah and there's something that. you know

something about that. you know when unemployment and out when unemployment and being out of some of the most or of work is some of the most or contribute some the most contribute some of the most dangerous inequalities dangerous of health inequalities . and know in haringey, . and you know in haringey, where i'm a councillor, i will live ten years longer than someone who's born 10 minutes down the road at my stage and you have people who and, you have people who work and, work to work further work who want to work further down, you down, people who are now, you know, being to make between heating and eating. so this something has to be done to make sure for people. sure that we provide for people. but think we probably but i think we probably need. and touched this is and chris, you touched this is a sensible conversation it not just talk policy suggestions thrown in an analogy throw in there i mean there is a legitimate concern among millennials and even younger that, you know, so—called boomers have had it too good . boomers have had it too good. they're owning huge amounts of eqtu they're owning huge amounts of equity , their own homes. they've equity, their own homes. they've got pension triple locked . and got pension triple locked. and meanwhile, people who are always as successful as you are, i mean, you probably do quite well for your peers, don't you're struggling still to pay mortgages and rent. that's not right, is seems, i think right, is it it seems, i think the issue of capital, there's an

issue of how young people can't get on the housing ladder. i think the planning issue about new houses, i think that is now understood by lots of people in that boomer generation, is a moral to more land, moral duty to allow more land, more buildings, to get more for younger people . i think for younger people. i think for younger people. i think for younger generations, i would say looking at i mean, i grew up without phone until without a mobile phone until i was if you look at the was 25. if you look at the opportunities you have now of your generation, i mean, you're looking called the looking for something called the 100 life as now people can 100 year life as now people can live more value than live a lot more value than living for 100 years. the living for 100 years. by the time this century is over. but you look at the opportunity, i think, for university job as the job provision of the job choice open to your generation is nothing that was open to mind. so what you can do, you've got it better than anything else you pay it better than anything else you pay people more. h.r is better. you know, time for young dads. i took two days holiday when my son born. nowadays weeks off son was born. nowadays weeks off of some yeah for sure of work at some yeah for sure some progress has be made. i mean there's two parts that chris the housing

chris i think the housing there's big challenge around there's a big challenge around availability quality affordability . wife me be affordability. my wife and me be married a week a half married a week and a half honeymoon the cheapest you know this is my return but i'm not a but you know she's a nice nurse and on my salary in hers years ago, we would've been able to buy, you know, three or four bedroom house anywhere in the now rent in where we live is if not the same as probably more than some of the mortgages that made some also in the early and early fifties may be paying. so there's a real challenge there. but how do we tackle the housing question? i think supply is the biggest point. so yeah, it's looking sure that our looking at making sure that our planning and regulations planning laws and regulations make point make sense. and then the point about , you know, there's about, you know, there's a million vacancies in the economy , are a million people , but there are a million people unemployed. making unemployed. how are we making sure have got the sure our people have got the skills need to be skills they need to be competitive? is competitive? if all age is actually and there's a big piece of we're doing? well, i'm of what we're doing? well, i'm concerned having children of what we're doing? well, i'm con(having having children of what we're doing? well, i'm con(having councilaving children of what we're doing? well, i'm con(having councilaving chiliten and having council and how it works , which is about making

works, which is about making sure people are getting skills they competitive , they need to be competitive, whoever whoever that whoever they are, whoever that from, age, something from, whatever age, something just sometimes older just because sometimes older people this argument, people do make this argument, you the youngest don't you know, the youngest don't work enough . well, think work hard enough. well, i think that's unfair. i mean , my if i that's unfair. i mean, my if i think about my grandparents , my think about my grandparents, my grandmother and had 12 children, just the two of them, my grandfather's one way age, he worked a c and in stafford's, when my grandmother was 50, she went to work. didn't want to went to work. she didn't want to stay home. had been very stay home. she had been very clear about not taking, you know, a single penny of help and she had 12 children with our grandfather. they were determined provide them . determined to provide for them. so certainly a that the so there's certainly a that the power of work is obvious why i'm not sure that i would buy the narrative young people that suppose chris we we've spoken about this kind of professionally you're a grafter it's sort of like we both have the mentality at the time go the mentality at the time to go if only good as your if you're only as good as your last and then

last story. and then comparatively, come into comparatively, people come into the industry who are younger and don't the same don't seem to have the same commitment. i am commitment. but i mean, am i being harsh ? probably a bit being harsh? probably a bit harsh . mean. i think i think harsh. mean. i think i think it's just it is there's so much more opportunity now. i think people i think people there's lots more for younger people when they come in, when come to work in places. and they may say, want to do that, i'll do this instead. whereas when i came into the industry, it was how you jump, jump, jump how can you jump, jump, jump higher than want to jump? higher than you want to jump? you it was i think that you know, it was a i think that was it was just i think there were ways into the were more ways into the industry. bizarrely kind industry. i think bizarrely kind of personal journeys. of thinking personal journeys. and now you've got to try new and now so you've got to try new but route came to the but the route i came to the local papers and trade magazines almost that's true. almost gone. i know that's true. but the a trick but also all the tories a trick here. mean, they've got to here. i mean, they've got to appeal younger voters, not appeal to younger voters, not just, by the way, the kind of 18 to 24 was everyone talks to 24 was that everyone talks about bloke full throated about the bloke full throated in companies, below companies, exactly 45 and below and what reason would you have under 45 taxed through the eyeballs at the moment to vote for tories? it's hard?

for the tories? it's hard? and that's problem. think you that's a problem. i think you can more building more can make more building more homes the obvious answer, homes is the obvious answer, isn't it? and to convince isn't it? and trying to convince tory, mean, you to all tory, i mean, if you went to all those hustings in the when they were the leadership those hustings in the when they wereaugust the leadership those hustings in the when they wereaugust repeated eadership those hustings in the when they wereaugust repeated thezrship those hustings in the when they wereaugust repeated the members last august repeated the members stood up saying we want more new homes near us didn't i? and that led to the by liz truss and then it was a surrender now from from the government to nimby the new government to nimby i think tories because they need to homes for the to be building homes for the children grandchildren quick point find perhaps but point to find perhaps but i think they're worried about you know look place like chesham know look a place like chesham i'm and what former i'm assuming and what the former tory people now tory heartlands people are now saying vote for you. tory heartlands people are now say you vote for you. tory heartlands people are now say you know, vote for you. tory heartlands people are now say you know, government' you. so, you know, government seems to that they can't to be concerned that they can't get the seats they need to win but i won't say will say just just lastly think this is just lastly i think this is where starmer's been very where keir starmer's been very smart talking smart about talking about economy works economy that works for everybody. people everybody. and you know, people are low pay. are working longer for low pay. we've pay stagnant for four we've seen pay stagnant for four years and we need to see that moving. thank you very, very much that. the telegraph's much for that. the telegraph's chris hope, labour councillor , chris hope, labour councillor, jokey and me camilla tominey.

thank you for watching the show . please tune in next week . but . please tune in next week. but here's michael portillo .

good morning and welcome sunday with michael portillo. bringing you good conversation arts and entertainment, ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous two coming up as bbc south end launches a ten part podcast in which shamima begum tells her story and as mp andrew is suspended from the conservative party for a sentence that linked vaccines to the holocaust . we'll

vaccines to the holocaust. we'll discuss whether there are both