hello there. welcome back. i'm bethany elsey with your top stories from the gb newsroom police are still searching for the gunman behind yesterday's suspected drive by shooting in central london . a seven year old central london. a seven year old girl remains in a critical condition after being shot outside a church near euston station. four women and a second child aged 12 were also taken to hospital with one of them suffering, life changing injuries. police say shots were fired from a moving black toyota as mourners left a funeral service . superintendent jack service. superintendent jack

rowlands is urging witnesses to come forward . we believe the come forward. we believe the suspects discharged a shotgun from a moving vehicle , which was from a moving vehicle, which was a black toyota chl . we want to a black toyota chl. we want to hear from anyone who witnessed the incident or has information about it , at the incident or has information about it, at least 68 people have been killed when a domestic plane crashed in nepal. the country's worst aviation disaster in three decades. 72 people were on board the yeti airlines flight that crashed in pokhara during clear skies . pokhara during clear skies. those on board included passengers from india , ireland, passengers from india, ireland, australia and france . all but australia and france. all but four of the bodies have been recovered . the search operation recovered. the search operation has been paused until tomorrow morning . sir keir starmer is morning. sir keir starmer is calling for an overhaul of the nhs , saying it must reform or it nhs, saying it must reform or it will die. writing in the sunday telegraph , he says a labour telegraph, he says a labour government would turn gp's into direct nhs employees rather than

allowing them to run their own practises he also announced plans to allow some patients such as those with back pain, to self—refer themselves , to self—refer themselves, to specialists will double the number of medical students using money from abolishing the non—dom status for the super rich . but also we need to look rich. but also we need to look at the way gp's operate and see whether we can't make changes. there things which will actually preserve the nhs going forward. the moment what the government's doing is really just presiding over managed and that over managed decline and that i will not accept. of course there will not accept. of course there will be challenges , whatever you will be challenges, whatever you reform something, but frankly if you don't reform the nhs then i fear it will die . at least 30 fear it will die. at least 30 people have been killed and 30 more are being treated in hospital after a russian missile strike hit an apartment building in central ukraine. and rescue efforts are continuing with officials saying a further 40 people could still be trapped under the rubble . yesterday, under the rubble. yesterday, russia launched a major missile

attack on ukraine. it's striking vital energy facilities across the country. authorities say the coming days will be difficult, but with threats to the supply of electricity, water and heating, all during the height of winter . you're up to date on of winter. you're up to date on tv, online and dab plus radio. this is tv news. now it's time for free speech nation . for free speech nation. a professor specialising in human rights is booted off campus. sir francis drake is cancelled and the brit awards go gender neutral and gave all the pnzes gender neutral and gave all the prizes to men. this is free speech nation . welcome to your speech nation. welcome to your free speech nation. with me andrew doyle on tonight's show, i'm going to be joined by the

author who says woke ideology leads directly to anti—semitism. we'll talk about the secondary school where have been school where pupils have been banned hands and banned from holding hands and we'll whether the bbc we'll discuss whether the bbc should recorded a ten part should have recorded a ten part podcast with jihadi bride shamima begum. but my student guest this evening are the wonderful leo kearse and josh howard . welcome both how are we howard. welcome both how are we this evening? you're okay. yeah. yeah. what about you, josh ? yeah. what about you, josh? well, in the middle of taxes. oh you're doing that? i got an accountant to do with that. is that fancy? yeah. well, if i don't even have a calculator , don't even have a calculator, i've just got, like, numbers stuck to the fridge. trust me, if i didn't have an accountant , if i didn't have an accountant, i'd be in prison for fraud. i get it wrong. i wouldn't be able to do it anyway. we're going to get questions from our get some questions from our lovely we're going to lovely audience. we're going to start with a question from pete. where pete? pete should where is pete? pete should secondary be secondary school pupils be allowed other? okay, allowed to hug each other? okay, so schooling chelmsford, so this is schooling chelmsford, where have been banned where pupils have been banned from romantic from having romantic relationships , but they've also relationships, but they've also been hugging and been banned from hugging and even hands. this is

even holding hands. this is a place called hylands school . place called hylands school. single bit harsh this, doesn't it? well, it really depends who's filming them and i mean, i can see, you know, this would make sense in certain situations. but no, i mean , situations. but no, i mean, like, we need to touch each other just as a human, as part otherjust as a human, as part of the human condition . we need of the human condition. we need to touch each other. and the teachers and pupils this is not so much that people should be allowed to touch each other. i mean, so many school the school ground games are based on, you know, touching each other. there's one where have there's the one where you have sort of piggyback i dunno if that's offensive no that's an offensive term. no there's tipping. yeah, there's offensive tipping. yeah, there's this british bulldog that's and that's offensive to dogs and british people . but yeah, british people. but yeah, there's, there's all these things when you've got to be able play tag, you've got to able to play tag, you've got to touch someone to play tag. well you did it inhumane isn't it josh. mean, mean you say josh. i mean, i mean you say about isn't about teachers about this isn't about teachers actually. pupils actually. this is about pupils having physical with having physical contact with other at the same other people's. but at the same time, mean, to work in time, i mean, i used to work in a boarding school. i remember we have session, have a training session, you know, you do a child

know, what do you do if a child is crying cause their parents have just been killed in an accident? you say, oh, no, accident? you just say, oh, no, i can't put an around this i can't put an arm around this child. that would ridiculous. child. that would be ridiculous. right? circumstances right? there are circumstances where be some sort where there has to be some sort of absolutely but also of physical. absolutely but also between fiving between people that high fiving or just to or anything like that, just to sort throw the out with sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater. is totally the bathwater. yeah is totally ridiculous. i went ridiculous. mind you, i went to boarding school got beat boarding school where i got beat in art regularly. hence the reason i am the i am. so reason i am the way i am. so actually no touching would have been i would been a policy that i would appreciate. can it just appreciate. but can it just be like you're not allowed to touch me, in the face, always me, shoot me in the face, always obey the yes i don't obey the rules. yes i don't know. hitting cover that that would it, wouldn't would have covered it, wouldn't it? absolutely the other it? absolutely but the other thing a lot of pupils, thing is that a lot of pupils, you the lockdowns you know, with the lockdowns going about it, they going on about it, but they spend two years a society, spend two years as a society, not each other. and leo not touch each other. and as leo says, is part of says, human contact is part of what us human. i think what makes us human. so i think that school is a great that actually school is a great place to learn the appropriate way to touch each other. just banning outright is wrong banning it outright is the wrong way you should say if way to go. you should say if someone is inappropriate, that's when know what? this when you go, you know what? this is it and explain it to

is why it is. and explain it to them. that's fair enough. them. yeah, that's fair enough. we're to the we're going to get to the question from danny. hello, question now from danny. hello, danny, i'm danny, how are you? hello i'm fine, thank yeah, it's a fine, thank you. yeah, it's a question that's probably on everybody's moment everybody's lips at the moment is fields racist? our fields is our fields racist? our fields racist? i mean, i've been racist? well i mean, i've been keeping a long list of all the things that are in the things that are racist in the media fields the latest one. media fields is the latest one. this university the this is a university in the united that has put out united states that has put out a statement saying they removing the word the the word field from the curriculum. this is the university of southern california's social california's school of social work, they're work, and they've said they're going the word practicum going to use the word practicum instead but instead of instead of field. but what you make of this what do you make of this practicum? is optimus prime practicum? is when optimus prime has is has an. yeah, this is ridiculous. they're just finding more and more things to find racist, way you racist, because the only way you can of point out that can sort of point out that you're good is by you're a good person is by finding something racist. but the supply racism isn't the supply of racism isn't keeping with demand. keeping up with the demand. so you've find ridiculous you've got to find ridiculous things aren't things that obviously aren't racist, word field. racist, like the word field. so what reason that what the reason is that logically slaves once logically that slaves once worked and therefore worked in fields and therefore fields the i mean, the fields are also the i mean, the sort of racially loaded terms of field and house and for different types of slave. so i

mean, i can understand that, but i mean, that's not the i mean, the word field. isn't this a racist thing there? but no. well, quite because i mean, slaves are also building railroads to be is the word train race. i don't understand that this book. yes, it is. oh, it is. yeah. that's funny. you didn't get the memo. oh, sorry. but it's actually slightly old saying, but i'd say it's even a tiny bit more insidious is that these companies or people are now a lot money to now being paid a lot of money to go in and de racist institutions. and if there isn't the racism there, they can't just a report at the just come out a report at the end after this. you know, end of it after this. you know, the university, california spent $100,000 whatever. i $100,000 or whatever. yeah. so i don't you guys are great. don't know. you guys are great. you pretty done. keep you you pretty well done. keep up work. they up the good work. no, they got they got something down they got to put something down and they're like, oh i failed. not it. yeah, i was old enough to justify their own salaries and existence. that's. find and existence. that's. i find that depressing because that so depressing because i remember study in remember there was this study in the and it was about the guardian and it was about the guardian and it was about the degree of racism on university campuses and the stats it stats they quoted found that it was any like it was. it was barely any like it was. it was barely any like it was. it was really, really rare. and so

they on very few they picked on the very few instance were in and said, instance they were in and said, look how terrible is on look how terrible racism is on campus. have thought campus. you would have thought they to we've they would want to say, we've made so much progress, they made so much progress, but they want newspapers want to sell newspapers and these keep their these people want to keep their jobs. also this is something jobs. and also this is something goes to something that you've talked about before about this whole they're whole idea that they're the press have this press class where they have this sort language. sort of speciality language. yeah. if someone dares to yeah. so now if someone dares to go say, oh, what field go in and say, oh, what field did you go? no, you can't say that. and it allows them to justify that. it's upsetting, which one, because which is an odd one, because they're who claim they're the ones who claim that they're the ones who claim that they're down they're trying to break down power other people's power structures, other people's privilege, are wielding privilege, but they are wielding so and control and so much power and control and the people with the most privilege and the most power, i mean, any of equality, mean, any sort of equality, diversity and inclusion department to fire department has the power to fire whoever wants. they get paid whoever it wants. they get paid huge sums of money and the ability even in the letter this university wrote this specifically said they're changing language . imagine changing language. imagine having the power to change language. that's pretty intense and they don't address actual examples of systemic racism like in american universities. if you

are from an asian pacific background, it's harder you background, it's harder for you to because they require to get in because they require that higher marks. to get in because they require that higher marks . yeah, that you get higher marks. yeah, and racism . and and that's actual racism. and the people from asian the asian people from asian background who work in a field have got to even harder. it's really hard for people. really hard for those people. anyway, to move on anyway, we're going to move on now question from now to another question from mary is the anti j.k. mary. hi, mary. is the anti j.k. rowling hysteria getting out of control? well, the anti j.k. rowling hysteria has been out of control for a while, i think. but this week there was this story which has just taken it to a whole level. this is a whole new level. this is a bookbinder . and this guy bookbinder. and what this guy has he's taken his rebel has done is he's taken his rebel from the harry potter books and taken her name off the harry potter books, even though she wrote them. right. i mean, this is surely people are going to be picked up for the fact that this is so extreme. they're just completely erasing it. it's more than extremist offensive, than these extremist offensive, you artist , you know, removing the artist, the person who deserves the credit was a single mom credit that she was a single mom writing cafe to take writing this in a cafe to take and like to pretend that that makes anything to be fair would have been a good idea when harry

potter came out and it was this big head. yeah and then everybody reading it like everybody was reading it like adults. that there'd been adults. i wish that there'd been like without harry like a cover without harry potter on the front, so i could have read on tube and not have read it on the tube and not look like child. but look like a child. yeah, but josh, they have separate josh, they did have separate covers adults . yeah. okay. covers for adults. yeah. okay. so they paper for the so they had the paper for the cartoon cover and then they had the more sort of the one with the more sort of earnest sepia. yeah, but it still clearly but i would still hide kind of. yeah. what do hide that kind of. yeah. what do you make of this one? i think i honestly thing is great. i mean, capitalism always and this capitalism always wins and this person found a loophole person is found a loophole in the market. these gullible people are so anti jk the market. these gullible people are so anti j k £170 for a people are so anti jk £170 for a new cover for their stupid child's book. i mean , that is an child's book. i mean, that is an absolutely not. is it legal for him to take the name off? sure. why not? why? why would it be illegal to not name on something you're selling well. well, selling someone else's book as though they would. they're not attached might be attached. so there might be a copyright issue that's when you sell an iphone cover. does out to steve jobs name it.

to have steve jobs name on it. i think that's very different. there so i'm there are obviously so i'm not even explain let's even going to explain it. let's move that's our final move on. that's our final question from christian. was christian a difficult one? shamima begum , be forgiven. shamima begum, be forgiven. should shamima beg and be forgiven? as you know, this is the jihadi bride who left to join isis when she was 15 years old and she's now six, right? she's got a podcast now. you know, this story really annoys me because of the way it's being presented. there's a podcast about her that she is i'll never say, oh, the bbc have given her own podcast. no, this is the whole point of like investigative journalism. i want to hear about her story. i want to hear about her story. i want to find out how she got radicalised , what her life is, radicalised, what her life is, how can we learn from those mistakes the horse's mistakes from the horse's mouth? if her to present if it was just her to present her narrative unchallenged? i 90, her narrative unchallenged? i go, fair enough. it's go, yeah, fair enough. but it's not that she opens up. guy, welcome to the shamima show and then gets to sort of say then just gets to sort of say whatever oh, yeah, whatever she wants. oh, yeah, it'll it'll interesting, it'll be. it'll be interesting, but here. also but it's actually here. and also this is what goes back to free speech. let people down themselves own words.

themselves with their own words. she's arrows and she's talking about arrows and how have sweets how they don't have sweets in syria where went, to where syria, where she went, to where people being with people are being beheaded with a slavery and all slavery force, rape and all these she's going these things and she's going about it's a tragedy they about how it's a tragedy they didn't have sleep, sweets and stuff that's with her own stuff that's her with her own words. it's her words. do you think it's her with words? but the with her own words? but the guardian pumping articles guardian are pumping articles saying, my they don't saying, oh, my god, they don't they air a—roads in they don't have air a—roads in syria brains play syria for ice brains to play probably from nothing. i mean , probably from nothing. i mean, this is a ten part series, dead tissue memo with her and ever three episode and i got kicked off the bbc. i was on a bbc radio show, i had a regular slot on the whole show and five life. i was kicked off when they found out i was right wing, but they're happy to platform somebody who's literally in isis. you kicked off a show isis. you were kicked off a show for right wing. for being right wing. yeah unbelievable. mean , he unbelievable. well, i mean, he makes it clear mexican can change name to shamima . if change your name to shamima. if you get give of a suit, you're actually. the actually. anyway, after the break, free speech nation. break, i'm free speech nation. i'm be speaking to the i'm going to be speaking to the human rights professor who is attacked trans rights

attacked by trans rights protesters kennedy protesters at a kennedy university week . university earlier this week. i'll be back in 3 minutes.

welcome back to free speech nation, a human rights law professor was prevented from giving a speech this week by trans rights protesters. professor robert wintemute was due to speak at mcgill university in canada about how trans rights can potentially infringe on women's rights. but more than 100 protesters gathered at the venue and the speech did not go ahead. here's what happened on tuesday . that what happened on tuesday. that got out . got out. i'm delighted to say that professor robert wintemute joins me now . now, one of the

joins me now. now, one of the major issues that people have with these kinds of trans activist protesters is that they can be quite intimidating, quite intolerant. and the footage that would seem to validate that point, it? absolutely point, wouldn't it? absolutely before the seminar , at least two before the seminar, at least two newspapers in montreal warned people that a conflict , very people that a conflict, very controversial speaker was coming to mcgill university. so i did have a controversial message , have a controversial message, which is that women have human rights to rights, but most women are too afraid to speak up because of the intimidation of the trans gender rights movement. so what happened on tuesday was that i got a firsthand experience of that intimidation. so in other words, these protesters here proved your point. they did absolutely . can you guys give us some background into what your talk was going to be about here? the title was sex versus gender title was the sex versus gender identity debate in the united kingdom and the divorce of lgb from t. right. and i had given

this talk at king's college london at universities in barcelona and bologna and a grand total of zero protesters were present. right. but then here, there were a lot. why is that ? is that because canada here, there were a lot. why is that? is that because canada is particularly sensitive around these issues ? yes. and i think these issues? yes. and i think actually the one thing that was different this time was in the pubuchyi different this time was in the publicity i mentioned lgb alliance, which is portrayed around the world as an anti—trans hate group equivalent similar to the ku klux kan, if not the party. and that is ridiculous because of course, it's not remotely anti—trans. and whenever you ask someone to give some evidence of that, they never can because it isn't. it's a kind hysteria, isn't it? a kind of hysteria, isn't it? a complete hysteria. and i complete hysteria. and what i worked out montreal is lgb worked out in montreal is lgb alliance promote hatred alliance does not promote hatred of transgender people , but the of transgender people, but the transgender rights movement promotes hatred of lgb alliance. can you explain that just because a lot of people will be confused here? how is it the

case that gender identity, ideology poses any kind of threat to gay rights? well, it's the reason they promote hatred of lgb alliance is that lgb alliance has committed the crime of high treason. the organisation has done that by distancing itself from the transgender rights movement and reserving the right to disagree on some issues. reserving the right to disagree on some issues . and for that , on some issues. and for that, the transgender rights movement insists on severely punishing lgb alliance by falsely labelling it an anti—trans hate group around the world. but is it not the case? i mean, gay rights was secured on the basis of the recognition that some people are attracted to members of their sex. but gender of their own sex. but gender identity ideology kind of seeks to override that. and it to override that. and so it suggests that actually it's not about attraction. it's about same sex attraction. it's about same sex attraction. it's about same sex attraction. it's about same gendered attraction , about same gendered attraction, which something that most which isn't something that most people most people recognise because most people recognise because most people gender people don't have a gender identity that's identity. would you say that's right? would say that's right? yes, i would say that's right. in the same way, how right. and in the same way, how does this impact on women's rights? mean, i've had many rights? i mean, i've had many feminists show talking

feminists on the show talking about they need about how they they need to recognise biological reality of sex differences, otherwise their single bases won't be single sex bases won't be preserved . that preserved. is that the experience you've had? yes. in my talk, i was planning to include the many areas of agreement, so no violence and harassment against transgender people, no employment discrimination where their birth sex is not relevant, etc. yes so there are wide areas of agreement. we're really talking about exceptional situations , about exceptional situations, single sex spaces , positive single sex spaces, positive action for women, and which includes sports. so it's a fairly narrow area, but it's an area where the transgender rights claim affects women. so the analogy i use is one person says, you're standing on my foot, and the other says , you foot, and the other says, you hate me and you want to kill me, and that's why you're complaining about my foot. i understand the first person says, no, it's just your foot, really. but it's this historical reaction, the letter to mcgill

university said that if i was allowed to speak, it would be contributing to the janus side of trans people around the world. why is this language so extreme ? i mean, i heard in the extreme? i mean, i heard in the video with the protesters there was someone screaming, your raising my existing racing , my raising my existing racing, my existence. yeah, but you've just explained that you are supportive of trans rights and they are. certainly you they are. and certainly you would that there needs to be would say that there needs to be measures prevent measures to prevent discrimination against trans people. that's your view. so how is erasing someone's is that erasing someone's existence? understand existence? i don't understand that. there's nothing that. well, there's nothing done. it makes sense done. it makes no sense whatsoever. it's a kind of insecurity about the argument supporting their cause. yes. and instead of engaging in reasoned debate, they just cry genocides at the slightest criticism. i mean, it strikes me so incredibly well, it's beyond hyperbolic, isn't it? that kind of idea. i mean, you were out there , were in the middle of there, were in the middle of these protests. they seem very shrill . they seem very shrill. they seem very intimidating. how does it feel to be in the middle of that kind

of tempest? it was intimidating . as i walk to the seminar room , they were shouting, shame on you. once inside , the chant you. once inside, the chant became , f your system , f your became, f your system, f your hate, trans rights are not up for debate . and they were trying for debate. and they were trying to make enough noise to drown me out in silence of the people attending. couldn't hear me. and we tried to continue as long as we tried to continue as long as we could. and then at one moment, i saw a student with an object near the glass in the doonl object near the glass in the door. i thought, oh, my gosh, he's going to smash the glass. fortunately it didn't. but they continued to push , push until continued to push, push until they got into the room. they disconnected the video projector and started chanting and shut down the event. but it was in a much smaller form like washington , january 20, 21. washington, january 20, 21. brasilia, january two, 2023. completely undemocratic. no one has the right to interfere with another group's meeting just

because they disagree with the opinions that are being expressed. and i suppose because they framed your opinions mischaracterised your opinions to extent that they're to such an extent that they're even using words such as genocide, that is their justification for censorship, isn't it? it is the problem here . i would compare it with what's happened with the term anti semitism . it's been deliberately semitism. it's been deliberately expanded . there are attempts to expanded. there are attempts to expanded. there are attempts to expand it to include any criticism of the government , of criticism of the government, of israel's treatment of the palestinians. israel's treatment of the palestinians . and you see the palestinians. and you see the same thing with transphobia . same thing with transphobia. being transphobia means hostility towards transgender people . but instead, the people. but instead, the activists widen it. so that it means any disagreement with any demand of the transgender rights . so you're talking here about what they call concept, the idea of things just expanding . and of things just expanding. and you that phrase trans you mentioned that phrase trans rights are human rights. that's what they were shouting. what what they were shouting. so what do mean by that? if you're do they mean by that? if you're saying has become saying the language has become so if you're saying so slippery and if you're saying they they they shout that because they feel i mean i'm feel they're right? i mean i'm sure sincere belief, sure it's a sincere belief,

isn't they feel the rights isn't that they feel the rights are being taken away. but while trans are, human rights trans rights are, human rights is very vague. i remember the 1990s? lesbian 1990s? we'd say the same lesbian and human rights. and gay rights for human rights. you to get down the you have to get down to the specific and sometimes human rights actually rights conflict, but actually what i did not hear them chanting that what i heard them chanting that what i heard them chanting was trans aren't up for debate . so in the uk there's debate. so in the uk there's a hashtag no debate. they refuse to discuss anything. but what is it they is up? what do it they think is up? what do they think? you're trying to debate away? you know, they have the rights as everyone the same rights as everyone else, they? as i'm else, don't they? as far as i'm aware, i'm mean i would say that anyone who harassing a trans anyone who is harassing a trans person or discriminating against them, be them, that does need to be addressed. and it's not up to debate say that they debate to say that they shouldn't rights. but shouldn't have those rights. but you're in there and you're not coming in there and saying rights saying that those rights should be at all. but be taken away? not at all. but in a democratic society, you have to be able to have debate regarding a law issue. so regarding a law reform issue. so for gender for example, the gender recognition should it be recognition act, should it be changed? it become changed? should it become easier to legal sex? people to change your legal sex? people have different views about that. but oppose reform or

but saying you oppose reform or amendments to the gender recognition act could lead you to your being called transphobic just because you disagree with the transgender rights movement , is it possible to have adult discussions in the current climate when everyone appears to be using words to mean different things? is that even possible at this point? it's difficult, but i think in the in this particular case language being abused in order to shut down debate, to silence people . but debate, to silence people. but the strange result of the action on on tuesday was that actually my message reached many, many more people than it ever would. it was supposed to be an academic seminar , small group of academic seminar, small group of participants. it would it would go off quietly and have very small impact on the world. instead i was sheltering in the in the dean's office and interviewed by the canadian equivalent of the bbc and itv

television . and yes. so tell me television. and yes. so tell me , there are all sorts of ways in which this language we were talking earlier in the show about how the word field academics have. they're saying the word field an example of the word field is an example of racism. have situations racism. when you have situations like sense like that, doesn't that a sense give cover to real racist. if give a cover to real racist. if we can't actually define what racism what anti—semitism racism is, what anti—semitism is, what transphobia is, what homophobia be raised. if these words have become slippy and nebulous, doesn't that , in nebulous, doesn't that, in a sense mean that actual racism , sense mean that actual racism, actual anti—semitism, actually, and that will and the fact that they will flourish those circumstances flourish in those circumstances 7 flourish in those circumstances ? yes, to dilute the ? yes, it tends to dilute the concept and so some people may say, well, racism can't be that bad if the word field is racist or transphobia can't be that bad if the human rights law professor is accused of it for just for wanting to raise a few issues. well, that's one of the things that a lot of the feminists have had on shelf said to me, you know, that the go to thing is they're accused of being and transphobic. i haven't. and i'm say, i'm haven't. and i'm like i say, i'm sure are people who are hateful, etc. and they're a very

etc. and but they're a very small and it's small minority. and it's certainly feminists that certainly not the feminists that i've to. from what i've spoken to. and from what you're know, it's you're saying, you know, it's not who to see not anyone who is there to see your talk. absolutely not. no it's a false accusation and it's used to attract a mob of over 100 protesters to chant slogans . but they really had no idea what i was going to say, and they were not interested. they were just wanted to they wanted to silence me. would you have welcomed being challenged verbally? asked verbally? absolutely i was asked to draft message to students before the event , and i to draft message to students before the event, and i said, if you have concerns, please come and participate . the question and participate. the question and participate. the question and answer, period. is there anything more that the university could have done? i mean, they in mean, were they put in a situation where they had to pull the event because the nature the event because of the nature of response? to honest, of the response? to be honest, i've attended two lgb alliance conferences at the queen elizabeth centre office at westminster abbey , and the westminster abbey, and the security arrangements were . security arrangements were. excellent. protesters were not allowed inside the building. they protest outside. they were

allowed to express their opinion . the problem here was that the protesters were allowed inside the you had over the building. so you had over 100 outside the 100 people standing outside the seminar room. that's what caused the problem. okay. well, i mean, judging the footage, it judging from the footage, it does quite does look like quite a frightening but thank you frightening event. but thank you very much for coming on to talk to me today about it. thank you. so after the break on free speech nation, we're going to be getting reaction to the news getting the reaction to the news that have been that no women have been nominated for the best artist award at the since went award at the since it went gender neutral . see you in gender neutral. see you in a couple of minutes .

welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. later in the show, i'll be turning in the uncle, the help of my panel, leo kearse and josh howie. and we're going to help you deal with your unfiltered dilemmas. email us dilemmas. so please do email us at or at gbnews.uk. and

at gb views or at gbnews.uk. and we will do our best to answer your issues. the organisers of the brit awards have been criticised after no women were nominated in the prestigious artist of the year category until last year, the brits had categories for best male and best female artists. but now they give one gender neutral prize and the five nominees for the artist of the of the year award all went to men. so to discuss this, i'm joined by the journalist and author ella whelan. thank you for coming . so whelan. thank you for coming. so a lot of people are angry about this. and what they have said is that this has vindicated the need for different gendered categories in the brit awards. do you think right? well, do you think that's right? well, i do you think that's right? well, | , do you think that's right? well, i , because, you i mean, clearly, because, you know , i don't think no matter know, i don't think no matter how many kind of free, free toxins and bras harry styles was, he's quite clearly still in the male category. and there is an awkward fact that this has this is the second time that this is the second time that this hasn't worked, because the first time around there was a gender neutral award was last year when adele won it, which,

you know, okay. she's i mean , you know, okay. she's i mean, only adele could win in that category. only she could be all the other guys. but she says in her speech, by the way, i really like being a woman. i am a woman. so, you know, basically undermining the whole gender neutral and fact neutral thing. yes. and the fact that has no women that there has been no women nominated time around nominated to this time around seems to suggest that either there somebody having big there is somebody having big joke brits or there is joke in the brits or there is some kind of a problem which needs to be addressed by letting have their time, feels like they're trolling us a little bit with an all male shortlist here. but it not the case but yeah, is it not the case though? i mean, i often used to think, you know, in the oscars, for there's best for instance, there's a best male actor. male actor, best female actor. but isn't like a sport but acting isn't like a sport where you do need biological sex to be dividing factor. you to be the dividing factor. you know, can sort judge know, you can sort of judge a male or female acting together, can you? i mean, so isn't there an argument for having just just scrapping the idea of sex divisions? well, yeah. well, the argument the argument for having sex is that you sex divisions is that the you know, of families have know, a lot of families have come said this and come out and said this and criticism brit awards is

criticism of the brit awards is that without acts, they use this kind horrible corporate kind of horrible corporate famous that makes me famous language that makes me cry without cry, which is that without access to spaces is that access to these spaces is that the awards gives you, then then, you know, women don't earn as much money and get as much racket deals and, all that kind of me is of thing. a little bit of me is a bit who, you know, i a little bit who, you know, i don't really you know, the average really care that average doesn't really care that much it. did you write much about it. did you write a good song? no. okay, move on. but you know, there is there's you know, in terms of comparing voices, make voices, you can't really make argument a sort of argument that there's a sort of womanly mainly womanly way of singing, mainly way unless it's in way to sing it, unless it's in choral music where obviously you have altos tennis have sopranos, altos and tennis and rest of it. yes. but and all the rest of it. yes. but in, you know, pop music and contemporary popular kind of culture, think should culture, i think that we should be rather rather than moving towards gender neutral, which i think loaded , because when think is loaded, because when you gender you you think of gender neutral, you kind gender less. it's kind think of gender less. it's that kind of like, yes, that that kind of like, yes, liberal blob of nothingness that exists so much today. but rob but actually saying that there isn't going those kind of isn't going to be those kind of distinctions, i, i tend think distinctions, i, i tend to think that in areas we

that in most areas life we put too emphasis on the idea of too much emphasis on the idea of sex difference apart from obvious ones like prison sports, actually having sex, you know, in germany mostly when you're singing in the shower or when you're putting on a play. i think that we can we can be much more relaxed about the differences. it's differences. but it's interesting, it, because interesting, isn't it, because this become a debate this has all become a debate about sexism. actually but it didn't start way, really. didn't start that way, really. i mean, gender the idea mean, the gender the idea of a gender neutral really gender neutral category really came think because came about, i think because of sam saying he sam smith saying that he identifies as they them now as non binary and saying he couldn't he couldn't whingeing that he couldn't whingeing that he couldn't anywhere basically, couldn't whingeing that he couldrwas anywhere basically, couldn't whingeing that he couldrwas rightvhere basically, couldn't whingeing that he couldrwas right actually, ically, which was right actually, which was was demanding his own award by is how it transpired and you know there is a i think that there's this sort of you were talking about this with leo and just earlier about, you know, the whole kind of racist fields thing. but the idea that there's not a demand for this kind of thing, i don't think that was a popular surge people writing popular surge of people writing into awards boards and into the brit awards boards and saying really this to saying, we really need this to be gender neutralised. yes. what happens is there's a kind of

panic . how do we how do we panic. how do we how do we basically avert a and avoid a crisis on twitter when the awards come out and the funny thing about this is it's completely backfired. yes. because rather than you know and also it has to be said, there's lots people saying, well, lots of people saying, well, it's y. well, it's all it's all a bit y. well, it's all a bit say me and if you if you engagein a bit say me and if you if you engage in and give in to this whole kind of identity politics, olympics. in award olympics. yes. in in award ceremonies , you're never going ceremonies, you're never going to there's always to win because there's always someone , someone who'll say, well, there's not very many. one like it. people in the awards this yeah it. people in the awards this year. well there's not year. well well, there's not very many gender people in the world. you anything it could world. you can anything it could be yeah but you be infinite. yeah but but you know have when it comes to know you have when it comes to the non—binary thing i mean with male female with racial differences, are sort differences, these are sort of these differences. these tangible differences. non—binary is an ideological thing, a form of self—identification, much like being say or something being a golf say or something like or a religious a like that, or a religious or a political affiliation. you know, we have an award we don't have an award for marxist pop stars, wouldn't it? i so why does why is there i mean, so why does why is there so much clout when someone makes that request that my

that request and says that my identity be validated, identity needs to be validated, even it's if it's not even if it's if it's not something that's tangible, like sex race? i think because sex or race? i think because it's become become the best it's become it's become the best weapon you wield in weapon that you can wield in contemporary i mean , contemporary politics. i mean, not non—binary or gender fluid. artists have been around forever. i mean, david bowie, you know, if you go back through most of the music in the seventies, it was sort of hard to tell who what, but those were men and women playing with genden men and women playing with gender. exactly. weren't gender. exactly. they weren't saying neither saying they were neither in terms of the appearance terms of kind of the appearance of that they of people, the way that they sort walked around in society sort of walked around in society or performed. there very or performed. there was very little the little difference. but the difference is that that sort of idea of performing or of having a kind of a, you know, a public life and a private has completely gone away. and now we have to affirm people's imagination about that. what is their sort of private life about what they imagine themselves to be, whether it's a, you know, a woman or some kind of overtly pansexual or whatever it is, and it's actually invite what it doesis it's actually invite what it does is kind of it means that we don't have any sense of having

truths in society, in public life, which that we know that this exists and this exists. the sky is blue the grass is green. there are men and women. and what you do behind closed doors and what you want to call yourself is your own business. but please don't make it mine. and think you know, and i think we need, you know, in of, you know, what that in terms of, you know, what that means for public spaces, award ceremonies or , you know, we have ceremonies or, you know, we have this in relation to discussions about literature, prizes and things that. comes into things like that. it comes into conflict with reality , which is conflict with reality, which is unfortunately still that there is a bit of a problem in some of these, particularly in publishing or other elitist sort of areas where women do stand still, tend to get a bit of a bum deal. so when you know, when reality bites, we see what really is on here. i also wanted to ask you about another topic entirely you wrote entirely because you wrote a piece spike this week about piece on spike this week about andrew tate and, the reaction to agitate. and me thinking agitate. and it got me thinking because speaking to a because i was speaking to a teacher of mine said teacher friend of mine who said that school there was that his school there was a decree that came from the decree that came down from the headmaster that this in

headmaster saying that this in the name must not be mentioned among it among the children because it will them into will radicalise them into misogyny. that the right way misogyny. is that the right way to deal with this? apparently, according your article, this to deal with this? apparently, ac happeningyour article, this to deal with this? apparently, ac happening quite rticle, this to deal with this? apparently, achappening quite rtilot. this to deal with this? apparently, achappening quite rtilot in1is is happening quite a lot in schools. yeah, some of schools. yeah, well, some of that big article the that was this big article in the times education supplement, which how to which was all about how to instruct how to deal instruct teachers, how to deal with andrew tate and the influence of andrew tate on one of the main things was calling for official training for for official cpd training for all schools to be able to deal with undertake. this is just music to this guy's is i mean i know he's in somewhere remain in jail somewhere so he's probably not to british not paying attention to british press that's you know press but that's you know individuals like andrew titled juuen individuals like andrew titled julien before him or any julien blanc before him or any of these are influences who make up they themselves. up artists. they themselves. okay. so they're saying two young men basically i can teach young men basically i can teach you how to get women by. that's it. or get rich. it's it. yeah, but or get rich. it's mainly it's kind mainly get mainly it's kind of mainly get rich mainly it's kind of mainly get fich and mainly it's kind of mainly get rich and then there's a rich scheme and then there's a little sort of make me little bit of sort of make me a sandwich darling and in the background of it, okay. and i'm it's driving miles it's driving me miles how panicked people are about him

because number one, you know truth that was forever us is that 13 year old boys which is sort of the main kind of age cut to be the find some to be the is find some interesting are generally idiots i mean know that just like in the nicest way possible it's a very immature or they pick up on stuff they get obsessed that there's a reason why so many of them are obsessed with gaming and things like that. they obsessed with things it obsessed with things and it really is not without, you know, outside the remit outside of the remit of capabilities adult society to capabilities of adult society to sort the plug on the sort of pull the plug on the laptop come back laptop and say like come back into real world, guys, into the real world, guys, because of the things that because any of the things that andrew tate whether it's andrew tate says, whether it's the thing or he's the sandwich thing or he's infamous for saying that women can't fly planes, things like that, you have to is to that, all you have to do is to probe. i can put into probe. i can put that into practise real life and say practise in real life and say maybe say that to a woman . maybe maybe say that to a woman. maybe say a teenage year say that to a teenage 13 year old. go and see what happens to you. when i suppose they do. you. and when i suppose they do. thatis you. and when i suppose they do. that is that they would probably agree with and that agree with you and say that teenage boys particularly teenage boys are particularly susceptible influence and susceptible to influence and they would say this is

they would say what this is doing sowing the seeds of doing is sowing the seeds of misogyny later . well, that's misogyny in later. well, that's a really i think one of the reasons why we're finding it so difficult to get to grips with. and you take where in previous, i think previous generations he would dismissed out by would have been dismissed out by very yeah. and people very quickly. yeah. and people would on the would have got clipped on the air saying rude things about air for saying rude things about women. that at the women. but there is that at the pub.the women. but there is that at the pub. the problem is that in sort of in relationship and sex of today in relationship and sex education way we education lessons on the way we talk men and women's talk about young men and women's relationships. we give this narrative young are narrative that young are inherently born with the desire and ability to hurt and rape young girls in this sort of condition to that from from the get go and that young young women are weaker , more women are weaker, more emotional, and more in need of protection. they're of protection. and they're sort of inherently different and there are vices need to be are these vices that need to be managed. and we say and teachers say it's okay because we're going to give you consent classes train you out of that, and you take comes along and says completely men says, i completely agree. men are dominant women are weak. let me offer you a $500 course on

how to harness these inherent things that everybody says. you have. things that everybody says. you have . so actually, the sort of have. so actually, the sort of philosophy behind it is very similar . a philosophy behind it is very similar. a consent class teacher and andrew tate are almost exactly the same in terms of how they view young men, women, but it's just they have different ways of approaching it. so we need to start actually to need to start saying actually to young there's nothing young people, there's nothing destined or to determined about you you behave . you you and the way you behave. you have agency over your have to take agency over your own you're sort of own actions. so you're sort of you're sort of arguing and correct me if i'm wrong, that evict in centred feminism or feminism yes, women feminism that says, yes, women are more are weaker and need more protection, that's wrong way protection, that's the wrong way to this. yeah, it's to go about this. yeah, it's well, it's just not well, number one, it's just not true. is nothing more true. there is nothing more terrifying brilliant than terrifying and brilliant than a teenage really, teenage girl. i mean, really, they are the something to behold. and i mean, i was one of them once. and i remember awful. and, know, forthright. we and, you know, forthright. we were and there is this sort of there's this weird idea that that people sort of melt in classroom so that they melt in and come back with each other in conversation with each. you have teachers reporting female

teachers reporting female teachers coming forward and saying, i was literally in tears because one of my 12 year old year , seven or eight students year, seven or eight students said to me that i couldn't fly a plane of a swan. and you think, what's wrong with you? you know, that's a grip. and i think we're giving if we are saying that watching a youtube video of this guy who really like he exists in a youtube hole, he makes sense. but reality, he doesn't make but in reality, he doesn't make sense. obviously, he's now sense. and obviously, he's now accused various which accused of various things which will hopefully to people young boys, sort of sense of who he really might be . and all you really might be. and all you have to do to in order to combat that, there have been you know, p0p that, there have been you know, pop stars, you know, the kardashians flaunt their wealth online. there is all there's so much going on for young people to get obsessed with. all you have to do is give them something positive to be interested and so think interested in. and so i think that talked about that he should be talked about in schools. we need cpd in schools. we don't need cpd training. is training. all you need is a teacher the confidence to teacher with the confidence to say, what about loser say, what about this loser interests and you know interests you? and do you know what about him ? do you think is

what about him? do you think is going to make you successful and just a conversation just have a conversation in reality rather than write seven articles about how terrifying his and you know want to it's also not a kind of coincidence i think that this whole panic is happening at the same time that for example, lots of politicians are going absolute mental about the safety at the the online safety bill at the moment. there's this of moment. and there's this kind of there's effect of there's a snowball effect of young people are being brainwashed by people online. really all we have to do is pull the plug and give them a bit of a kick intellectually and maybe and say, get interested in something real and the and thank you so much forjoining me. something real and the and thank you so much forjoining me . and you so much forjoining me. and after the break, i'm going to be finding out why one of britain's greatest naval heroes has been cancelled by a primary school. don't away .

welcome back to free speech nation. sir francis drake primary school in south london is changing its name because one of the spanish armada heroes had links with the slave trade. the school held a vote last year and 88% to parents, staff, pupils . 88% to parents, staff, pupils. local residents were in favour of the name change. headteacher karen cartwright said she was thrilled with the results and it's not going to be known as twin oaks primary school. the mail online's history correspondent, harry howard has written about this story this week joins me now. week and he joins me now. welcome to so i want welcome to the show. so i want to ask you, harry, about this. where this come from? it's where does this come from? it's a kind of hysteria at the moment. trying to moment. people are trying to change past, modify what has change the past, modify what has been for many, many been of set down for many, many years and pretend like it years and pretend almost like it didn't happen . what's didn't happen. what's the case in one? so with with in this one? well, so with with this school, they launched consultation year. weirdly consultation last year. weirdly in the letter to parents, they said the governors had already decided to change the name 0 so it was they'd already made that preordained, apparently preordained, but that apparently it possible they could it was possible that they could the consultation could decide

actually keep actually no we want to keep drake's name. yes. anyway, so 80% students in i'm parents 80% of students in i'm parents decided to change the name and they opted for oaks primary school which is kind of divorced from you know it doesn't really mean anything. well, what is the significance that they just got to oak trees? this is two oak trees. and it probably trees. and i think it probably escaped notice that i escaped their notice that i don't if you've gone don't know if you've read gone with the wind, but the plantation not where plantation is not where the slaves called 12. they're slaves is called 12. so they're kind ten oaks away from kind of ten oaks away from another slightly. another sort slightly. they should yes, should have read that book. yes, they have done. yeah so they should have done. yeah so this is a bizarre one, though, as well, because, you know, sir francis you the francis drake, you know the thing remember him for thing that we remember him for is defeat of the spanish is the defeat of the spanish armada circumnavigate armada and circumnavigate the globe. yeah, it isn't for his involvement the slave trade involvement with the slave trade . when he was a young man in his twenties, a crew member twenties, he was a crew member of hawkins voyage. he of john hawkins slave voyage. he was member that was a crew member. so that it seems, given the time period and the and ethical values of the and the ethical values of the and the ethical values of the time, it seems a bit tenuous. i mean, it does . i tenuous. i mean, it does. i mean, he he went on three voyages with hawkins , who was a

voyages with hawkins, who was a cousin of his. voyages with hawkins, who was a cousin of his . and obviously cousin of his. and obviously they did capture and sell a lot of africans . and obviously that of africans. and obviously that to us is utterly abhorrent . but, to us is utterly abhorrent. but, you know , we've got to put it in you know, we've got to put it in the context of the time. the fact that he actually he was ambushed by the spanish narrowly survived and then renounced slavery and devoted his slavery and then devoted his time to getting revenge on the spanish and in his circumnavigation of the globe . circumnavigation of the globe. he his closest people on he one of his closest people on his ship was a former slave called diego, who had decided to join drake's company and was a fully paid member of the ship's crew and was actually when they went to panama in recruiting a load of former slaves on the island to help fight against the spanish. so, i mean, if we're talking about someone living nearly 500 years ago, i'd say that's actually quite it's quite interesting really, that this man had a former slave among his ship's company. but it's just the history is complex. yeah, absolutely. and of course, you know, if we would have been born in the 16th century, we would

have different ideas about have very different ideas about the we currently do. the world than we currently do. and idea that the name sir and this idea that the name sir francis drake, the because the school was called that it must be glorifying slavery and saying slavery is a good thing. i've never met anyone who thinks slavery is a good thing. don't slavery is a good thing. i don't think people exist in this think such people exist in this country, well don't country, do they? well i don't think think if you to think so. i think if you go to certain parts the world, it certain parts of the world, it still still practise. but still is still practise. but yes, definitely. yeah and it's not acceptable. you know, not acceptable. and, you know, drake was very much a product, product of his time. but as i said, you know, a complicated character and no one is, you know, we can't really look back at the past with sort of 21st century spectacle, but we seem increasingly determined to do so. and where does this you know, where does this end? i mean, if we take the second voyage i know was part funded by queen elizabeth, the first do we therefore have to her therefore have to remove her image , which is everywhere? image, which is everywhere? let's face it, a statue let's face it, there's a statue on street. the oldest on fleet street. the oldest statue london of queen statue in london is of queen elizabeth. first we start elizabeth. the first do we start removing mean, removing these as well? i mean, what where where does this take

us? well, it literally i mean, it doesn't can't see where it it doesn't i can't see where it stops, if go back stops, because if you go back far enough, literally anyone has stops, because if you go back far those h, literally anyone has stops, because if you go back far those kindzrally anyone has stops, because if you go back far those kind ,ally anyone has stops, because if you go back far those kind , dubious, ne has stops, because if you go back far those kind , dubious, you as got those kind, dubious, you know, something that we with our very good morals now can see is was wrong. you know, even churchill and you know, where doesit churchill and you know, where does it stop? really? yeah are you concerned as well about the this tendency, not just with drake, but with statues, for instance? i've actually taking statues down for pretending that these things didn't occur. i mean, what kind of what does that do to our understanding of history, do you think? well, i think, you know, divorces us think, you know, it divorces us from from history. you know, obviously , britain and england, obviously, britain and england, you know , you know, more than you know, you know, more than 1000 of history here . and, 1000 years of history here. and, you to change the name of you know, to change the name of a twin oaks, i mean, a school to twin oaks, i mean, it nothing. mean, it's it means nothing. i mean, it's the you know, you're the same, you know, just you're essentially separating essentially kind of separating yourself from the past yourself off from from the past . and i think that's that's a bad thing. do we know how people at the have reacted? do at the school have reacted? do you there been. you think there has been. i mean, the survey would seem to suggest that there is

overwhelming this overwhelming support for this kind approach. kind of revisionist approach. i mean, trouble at mean, does that trouble you at all? troubles in the sense all? troubles me in the sense i seriously i mean, approached seriously i mean, i approached lewisham council for a comment because they are in charge of the they said there the school and they said there was whole school about was a whole school project about trying to kind of understand him. but i mean, i somewhat doubt whether how objective that was and whether they had a serious historians who actually, you properly learn about you know, properly learn about drake's and fact that drake's past and the fact that he was the first englishman to circumnavigate the globe and the fact that he helped england defeat , like all of defeat the armada, like all of those things are pretty impressive feats, really. we impressive feats, really. do we are we not having the conversation? like a lot conversation? i mean, like a lot of this stems from the summer of 2020, the killing of george floyd. there was a very a floyd. and there was a very a knee reaction, wasn't knee jerk reaction, wasn't there, country where there, across the country where people saying, well, let's people were saying, well, let's eliminate elements of history that problematic. that's that are problematic. and that's the use all the the phrase that they use all the time. think have time. do you think things have got able now to have the got are we able now to have the discussion? and or is that are those simply not those discussions simply not being i think discussions being had? i think discussions are had this on this are being had on this on this programme example. but

programme for example. but you know, it's a trend that know, i think it's a trend that doesn't to slowing down. doesn't seem to be slowing down. i a whole load of i mean, there's a whole load of london councils at the moment, the reviewing street names and changing of streets named changing names of streets named after people with extremely links to the slave trade . people links to the slave trade. people like gladstone , you know, many like gladstone, you know, many others and there's gladstone park, which they're considering renaming to something like diane abbott park . well, that was abbott park. well, that was because of gladstone's father actually. it wasn't because of gladstone, because of his father's the fight. father's involvement. the fight. so the so was even the sins of the fathers. exactly. we seem to be condemning for. what? condemning people for. for what? their did. their what their fathers did. yeah, that i mean, this to yeah, but that i mean, this to me makes absolutely no sense. but, you know, do you think there because there are people because i haven't them, people haven't heard from them, people who about the prospect who are upset about the prospect of a primary named after of a primary school named after drake? there lots drake? i mean, were there lots of where this of complaints? where did this come suppose i can. come from? i suppose i can. i can. i've spoken to people who have said, imagine being a someone from an ethnic ethnic minority at the school and basically your ancestors were enslaved by drake and your school is named after him. and i

can kind of i can relate to that . but again, it kind of if we have that treatment that everyone and then there'll be no one left to look at because , you one left to look at because, you know, we will have chucked everything down the memory hall. so absolutely. i mean, we are all the product of or descended from slaves and people from a mix of slaves and people who are enslaved without a doubt. anyway, thank you so much for me the show forjoining me on the show today. really . critical so it's today. really. critical so it's time for a break now . today. really. critical so it's time for a break now. but in a few minutes, we're going to be discussing the decision to scrap personal statements for young people who are applying to go to university . i'm going to be university. i'm going to be joined by an author who says that woke ideology is a threat to people. he's just to jewish people. he's just written a book about it and i'm going to find out about the man who gatecrashed exhibition at who gatecrashed an exhibition at an gallery by pretending to an art gallery by pretending to be serious art critic. i'll be be a serious art critic. i'll be seeing you just a few minutes. thank you .

nation this evening. but first, let's get a update from bethany . and let's get a update from bethany. and elsey with your top stories from the gb newsroom. police are still searching for the gunman behind yesterday's suspected drive by shooting in central london. a seven year old girl remains in a critical after being shot outside a church near euston station . four women and euston station. four women and a second child aged 12 also taken to hospital with one of them suffering life changing injuries. police shots were fired from a moving black toyota as mourners left a funeral service. they're appealing for witnesses . come forward . at witnesses. come forward. at least 68 people have been killed when a domestic plane crashed in nepal when a domestic plane crashed in nepal. the country's worst aviation disaster in three decades.72 aviation disaster in three decades. 72 people were on board the airlines flight that crashed in pokhara during clear skies.

those on board passengers from india , ireland, australia and india, ireland, australia and france . all but four of the france. all but four of the bodies have been recovered. the search operation has been paused until tomorrow morning . the until tomorrow morning. the labour leader , the nhs, must labour leader, the nhs, must reform or enter a period of managed decline. writing in the sunday telegraph, sir keir starmer said a labour government would make gp's direct nhs employees rather than allowing them to run their own practises. he also spoke of getting rid of bureaucratic nonsense to allow patients to bypass gp's and sell for refer themselves to specialists . a man has been specialists. a man has been arrested under terrorism laws after traces of uranium were found in a package at heathrow airport. border force officers detected the radioactive material in a shipment of scrap metal towards the end of december . met police confirmed december. met police confirmed there was evidence the package posed a direct threat to the public. posed a direct threat to the pubuc.the posed a direct threat to the public. the man has been

released on bail until april . at released on bail until april. at least 30 people have been killed and 30 more are being treated . and 30 more are being treated. hospital after a russian hit an apartment building in central ukraine. rescue efforts are continuing with officials . a continuing with officials. a further 40 people could still be trapped under the rubble. yesterday, russia , a major yesterday, russia, a major missile attack on ukraine striking vital facilities across the country . authorities say the the country. authorities say the coming days be difficult with threats to the supply of electricity, water and heating dunng electricity, water and heating during the height of and the uk is facing 200 flood warnings. with cold and wet conditions set to continue welling to next week, the met office has issued several yellow weather warnings for ice across much of scotland, wales and the north of england. it's also warning motorists of difficult driving conditions as heavy snowfalls in parts of the country. temperatures are set to drop below zero in most places

overnight . europe to date on tv, overnight. europe to date on tv, onune overnight. europe to date on tv, online and dab+ radio. this is gb news is now it's back to free speech nation nation . speech nation nation. welcome to free speech nation with me andrew doyle doyle. so we've had some questions emailed in to us. thank you very much. the first one is from caroline. she says, should the church of england be reparations for its links to the slave trade ? josh, links to the slave trade? josh, what do you think ? well, so, what do you think? well, so, yes, i think it's100 million that they've sort of put aside. they're going to be very careful . they say it's not reparations. it's going to be going to the communities he's been directly affected by slavery. the thing is that control 9 billion and pounds. is that control 9 billion and pounds . the church of england at pounds. the church of england at the moment. yes. why don't we just give all of that money, aboush

just give all of that money, abolish the church of england. look a star of david. i don't wanna get in trouble here. yes, it sounds religious hatred. josh, what? what do you think that leah? yeah, not. this is nonsense. the thing the church should be paying reparations to me for my ancestors who may or may not have ended the slave trade. and it sounds very vague . the british know the british navy went out actually stop the slave trade. britain abolished slavery to had to slavery and then had to had to fight and had to lose soldiers and men to stop happening. and naval men to stop happening. and sometimes that to fight the african leaders who were we wanted slavery continue because they were making so much money. it. it's very tricky isn't it when it comes this issue of reparations, i mean, like you say, just saying they're not giving reparations, that donating communities, donating to communities, that affected. comes to affected. but when it comes to reparations, us are reparations, all of us are descended a mix of people descended from a mix of people who enslaved people who who were enslaved and people who did and there will did the slaving. and there will be no exceptions to that if you go back enough. reparations are very difficult quantify. very difficult to quantify. why are once start,

are they how? and once start, there's no real end to. is that. no that's crazy to make the point that saying you point that you're saying you know tv shows where know these these tv shows where they've like a and it turns they've got like a and it turns out their great great great is this or is like one this person or that is like one person but actually if you go back, think it's five or six back, i think it's five or six generations. something generations. we have something like to send , you like 2000, right, to send, you know, to draw upon. so the idea that this person or not. that this one person or not. yeah, it's going to dominate our genetic. yeah there is it does seem very odd but the church of england seems to be interested in this sort of fashion of, you know, this a very woke thing. let's be honest. and they really get on board with that for some reason. and virtue signalling. so it's 100 million the so it's100 million from the 9 billion they control. billion that they control. so that's probably that's like probably 1% probably enough that your maths is really bad, it's probably, you bad, but it's probably, you know, i know, something like that. i don't taxes this week don't know. i my taxes this week so good numbers now so so i'm good the numbers now so you it's really just it's you know it's really just a it's a it's just something to get ahead line saying look this is some wonderful that doing. some wonderful thing that doing. yeah the next from yeah okay well the next is from james james is in to do

james and james is in to say do written personal statements for university applications unfairly the rich . okay. i think if video the rich. okay. i think if video message might soon replace the personal statement , you remember personal statement, you remember the element of the us form. we have to write yourself for a few hundred words. i hated writing that personal statement. i remember that it's not fun, but. but actually challenge is kind of helpful and it was certainly helpful in the interviews and that kind of thing. so going on here, think it's great here, no, i think it's great idea because helps the idea because it helps with the working . so working class applicant. so which which we need more of. there is a class here, isn't it. because the counterargument to this, they're saying, well, look, posh they tutors look, the posh they get tutors who are hired. so basically write it for them, you know , and write it for them, you know, and you think that's a good thing. well yeah, because you want somebody who's going to approach a with the same of they're a job with the same of they're going to hire and they're going to hire people to help with to hire people to help them with the they're going cheat. the job. they're going to cheat. they're cheat. mean, they're going to cheat. i mean, cheating we get a job cheating is how we get a job done. going to just for a done. so i'm going to just for a

serious answer at this point but you know what fairly benefits the is rich right so the rich is being rich right so the rich is being rich right so the idea that this is going to somehow make it more equal. no because if they make it questions rich people will questions then rich people will get professional media personality . then i'm available personality. then i'm available . who can then sort of tutor them? how to give nicest thing to. not only that but rich people are generally, they have confidence. i mean , i can always confidence. i mean, i can always sponsor someone to get rich because brimming with because are just brimming with confidence. public school confidence. i went public school and that is there's no doubt that that's you get in inherent feeling of it's not superiority but it's this sort of lie i can do anything because you grow up with examples around you of people who did start their own businesses not. businesses and what not. so you're limited. so you're you're not limited. so you're saying that actually scrapping the statement maybe the personal statement is maybe a yeah, a good thing. well, yeah, because are arguments because there are arguments and we in classicist we still live in a classicist city. there's still bias biases , unconscious biases. someone rocks up in the video interview and then , you know who's who's and then, you know who's who's going police the person's going to police the person's thinking as they them . but

thinking as they watch them. but this thing, they're this whole thing, they're saying, going to away saying, oh, we're going to away with the personal statement because it's not because it's you know, it's not excessive. not accessible excessive. it's not accessible to people don't the to all people don't have the they have means to do they don't have the means to do a statement. so we're a personal statement. so we're going with going to replace it with multimedia like you multimedia people. do like you know effectively a tiktok video or whatever, sort or whatever, some sort of synchronised dance is synchronised dance the song is repeated every 3 seconds, but how is that how is having a camera , a microphone and lights camera, a microphone and lights and everything more accessible than having a pin and a pair? it's got a point that i mean, that would benefit rich people, too, right? it's a lot of too, right? yeah. it's a lot of benefit. system is stacked, benefit. the system is stacked, rich people. rich people rich people. so if rich people are bigger and they got that money and their money being better and their children are better than poor people's children, goodness sake clear. a ridiculous clear. that is a ridiculous thing to say. everybody knows it's don't believe it's true. i don't believe a word saying. my i'm going word you're saying. my i'm going to move on to charlie. now, charlie has emailed in and said, should schools maintain a strict dress code for teachers? and i am fully aware of what this is about because we've this story before , kayla, i hope i'm

before, kayla, i hope i'm pronouncing that right. kayla lemieux, who is a trans teacher in, canada, who wears a massive prosthetic plastic breasts when teaching students there we are who are and i say this is a woodwork lesson. there's a danger there surely with those massive breasts in the electric saw but of course students of filming and taking pictures now the recent the most recent development is that first, these students were told that they might be suspended if they took pictures, pictures secretly. but now the school in question. oakville trafalgar high school has said they might bring in a dress code . josh, surely dress code. josh, surely a teacher have a i couldn't have worn fetish gear school as a teacher is the dress code going to be like i mean what kind of dress is going to be able to cover those right. well there is that so it doesn't dress codes wouldn't necessarily mean not wear i think sexy breasts it might be like have to cover might be like you have to cover her whether i wear ball her nipples whether i wear ball gown to of cover. yes yeah gown to sort of cover. yes yeah a big taffeta ball. so but the

thing about this is i mean, look, clearly that's a fetish. clearly i mean, that's not clearly that i mean, that's not very transphobic and is absolutely not a real woman. thatis absolutely not a real woman. that is a real woman and has actually put a lot more of effort into being a real woman in 2000. some the other real in 2000. some of the other real women. you know, saw we women. so, you know, we saw we saw gallery when the snp saw in the gallery when the snp passed reform bill, passed their gender reform bill, there some other real women there are some other real women there are some other real women there who. just look like this . there who. just look like this. the prosthetic breasts . so the the prosthetic breasts. so the thing about this is i did enjoy when the person in the school i think was the deputy headmaster or something came out and defended and said, this is who she is. this is this is. no, it's not. it's a these are massive. is that have we ever uncovered whether this was or not we think do you think it is genuine so a while we all thought now this teacher is probably a genius way of proving the point. yeah, exactly. if you are who you say, whatever. are who you say, well, whatever. and he , she was living and he's out, he, she was living in she you bigot. and he's out, he, she was living in she you bigot . so definitely in she you bigot. so definitely has become the morality police say it's really good anyway we're to move on now if we've

got another question is from isla and isla says would you live door a cricket club if live next door a cricket club if you were scared of the ball being hit into your garden? this is cricket club in is coleshill cricket club in dorset. they were facing the threat of closure because there were complaints from people in nearby houses when cricket balls went into the houses. went over into the houses. england ben stokes has england captain ben stokes has joined a campaign to save the club which was founded 118 years ago and that now would have raised ago and that now would have raise apparently pay raised £35,000 to apparently pay for to protect the for netting to protect the neighbouring properties . surely neighbouring properties. surely i know. i mean if i was i would know. i mean if i was buying a house and he behind a cricket club i would know that the odd cricket ball might come my we see that the scourge my yeah we see that the scourge of the uk is nimbyism. so you know, people buy houses next to pubs and then demand that the pubs and then demand that the pub making any noise or serving any drinks. yeah. and we've seen this happening here with, with cricket pitch. i mean cricket is a horrible, boring game. it's posh , it's punishment for being posh, it's punishment for being for being i mean the that they last for don't they cricket match weeks when we talk about

closure what the what we really want is closure on a game of cricket so we find out the actual score before we all die of old are you a fan of, of old age. are you a fan of, cricket geoff i'm i do cricket geoff i'm no, i do sunday. actually raised the sunday. i've actually raised the money know yeah money they have know but yeah i just any time i read about people with gardens i just get angry . i people with gardens i just get angry. i mean, i don't have a garden. i mean, wish i live in garden. i mean, i wish i live in an area that had a cricket club for you to complain about. no so i'd be like, oh, i'm in a rich area. yeah, there is. that does sound area. we've sound like a rich area. we've got another question from got another question now from steve. is quite short steve. and this is a quite short and sweet. he says, is britpop coming back? so apparently two of the biggest bands of the nineties are reuniting this summer. that's blur. blur is going play two shows at going to play two shows at wembley stadium and pulp are going loads of outdoor going to play loads of outdoor gigs as well . were gigs and festivals as well. were you a fan of britpop ? yeah, you a fan of britpop? yeah, george agree . do you think it george agree. do you think it should combine? do you think it's time? you know, it feels like it's unfinished. the whole movement nineties coming movement of the nineties coming back sort it's

back and it's sort it's unnerving because . the fact that unnerving because. the fact that i'm old enough for something to come back. yes exactly. but i understand fashions back and maybe like the style coming back . but these are the actual bands. blur's a great band and pop's a pretty good band and it's still going they well, i think they're coming back for the summer as well. and apparently the oasis you can stay they can go. but liam gallagher, i know gallagher up to the biggest acts of the moment terms live moment in terms of live performances. i mean, didn't gallagher recently gallagher just recently do knebworth? a huge. knebworth? and it was a huge. yes. are you a fan of these people? i think i mean, i grew up with britpop, all that kind of stuff. i just think it's depressing and when bands reformed see how reformed and then you see how all now and then you realise all are now and then you realise that you're as well. so this that you're old as well. so this is really existential is really an existential question about morality and mortality. although you do. mortality. yeah although you do. you used to them you do. remember we used to them so like conflict so seriously like that conflict between oasis who would between blur and oasis who would get number would it be get to number one, would it be country or roll with country house or roll with it? that that on the that was that was on the mainstream it was like mainstream news. it was like the front front page. these front page. front page. these are a glorious time, human civilisation we had the

civilisation where we had the end with sort of end of history and with sort of nasty things in ukraine nasty things, wars in ukraine and racism and things like that. so no, you know, all things or complaining about those things is come back in a big way. we you know, i don't know, maybe, maybe this is going to heal everything. we can go back to worrying stuff again. worrying stupid stuff again. well, to bring well, i would them to bring their back i very much their ironic back i very much into my belgian house that kind of thing just me. worked in of thing just me. i worked in a cheesecake factory with the lead singer time. no way. singer of take no time. no way. yeah. job to yeah. okay yeah. his job was to pump up jam . okay. oh i'm pump up the jam. okay. oh i'm going to put a stop to this after the break on free speech nafion after the break on free speech nation i'm going to be speaking to who that woke to the author who says that woke ideology leads anti—semitism ideology leads to anti—semitism . you in 3 minutes.

welcome back to free speech nation, a leading jewish author says woke ideology leads to

anti—semitism. david bernstein has written a book called woke anti—semitism how a progressive ideology harms jews . anti—semitism how a progressive ideology harmsjews . in england ideology harms jews. in england and wales. there was a 49% increase in the number of hate crimes against jewish people that were reported to police in the 12 months up to last march. and to cite the joins me now, thank you so much for coming. so this is the book i just want to hold up here this is the woke anti—semitism. now a lot of people will confused, i suppose, because the word woke has become quite nebulous and people don't really what means. what really know what it means. what do by woke when you do you mean by woke when you talk so when say talk about it? so when i say woke, mean things. one is woke, i mean two things. one is that racism and oppression are embedded in the structures of society they're like the air we breathe . right. and the second breathe. right. and the second claim is that only people lived experience who have experienced oppression are qualified to define it for the rest of society. yes. now, both of those things can be true. it can be true that racist them or oppression are embedded in the very structures of society, and

it be true that as a person it can be true that as a person who's, let's say, suffered oppression, an oppression, that you have an insight that other people should hean insight that other people should hear, but they're not always true. that second claim true. and that second claim sometimes weaponizes the first and to of it and is used to sort of it becomes source of really becomes the source of really cancel also, cancel culture and. also, i would argue of and when we would argue forms of and when we talk about antisemitic ism in this country recently a comedian called david baddiel wrote a book jews don't that book called jews don't that coffee them. there we coffee with them. oh, there we go. fantastic. and so you will know his thesis that know that his thesis is that actually people on the left actually many people on the left who either self—identify who would either self—identify as would refer to as woke or who we would refer to as woke or who we would refer to as because they have as woke because they have a belief those kind of power belief in those kind of power structures the of structures or the value of lifting appearance. have lifting appearance. they have a kind spot when it comes kind of blind spot when it comes to antisemitism they're very good detecting racism good at sort of detecting racism , in various places, , transphobia in various places, often doesn't but they often it doesn't exist, but they won't do that when antisemitism arose. it actually does exist exactly . so this ideology exactly. so this ideology equates power and privilege with success with economic success. and that's going to always end up bad for the jews , as we like up bad for the jews, as we like to say, jews on average more

successful in the united states, in the uk than than the rest of the population. and that means that they're going to be viewed as being privileged . i think as being privileged. i think that's inherently problematic . that's inherently problematic. that's going to almost always lead anti—semitism. the thing that you're seeing is when you attach identity to privilege in attach identity to privilege in a general sense, in other words, black people are always going to be more oppressed or white people are always going to be the oppressors no matter what. you're to jews and you're going to see jews and jewish attached to the jewish privilege attached to the their identity. and i think that's to this new variant of anti—semitism that we're seeing. to extent you think that to what extent do you think that the singular on on skin colour and race has distorted debate? i mean recently we had whoopi goldberg saying, i mean, you know, this has been about a lot. but she made she made the claim that the holocaust was about white people bullying other white people bullying other white right. white people, you know. right. and, know obviously, she's and, you know obviously, she's taking conception of taking an american conception of race, we've defined it in race, as we've defined it in america. and as if saw as being

white, did not see jews as being white. they saw jews as being in a race. yes. and so i think that that just the whole emphasis on whiteness is problematic. and likes to talk about how demonisation of white people leads to demonisation of jews . leads to demonisation of jews. when you believe that a group is all powerful and there are very responsible for all the oppression society, it's not a very far leap to then say that jews are also white and they've been defined as white, whether we like it or not, and that they're part of the oppressive class. in fact, sometimes the jews are even characterised as hyper but very hyper white. but it's very difficult to understand, isn't it? because if you are a social justice activist, if are justice activist, if you are someone prides yourself on someone who prides yourself on standing people who have standing up for people who have been and oppressed, been downtrodden and oppressed, well, of well, surely the example of jewish in our recent is jewish people in our recent is the obvious example of the most obvious example of oppression. mean the holocaust oppression. i mean the holocaust , obviously the most horrendous thing that happened in the 20th century. so why is it they can't see that? what is it that stops them? yeah. and by the way, i

come the left. i'm a social come from the left. i'm a social justice activist. my professional life, i've been part of the jewish community that to make change. that is trying to make change. i believe rights . i believe in immigrant rights. i believe in immigrant rights. i believe criminal justice believe in criminal justice reform . i believe in many of the reform. i believe in many of the issues that people are issues that the people who are woke supposedly about woke supposedly care about as well. the problem that well. but but the problem that they can't get beyond the idea that jews are successful on average. ibrahimovic's candid talks about talks about disparity and says that if any population that is below the mean on average by definition they are being oppressed . and they are being oppressed. and that also means that any population the mean is part the oppressor class. it is complicit in oppression. so you have asian americans and even nigerian americans, by the way, who are succeeding in american life. and i think that they're all susceptible to being as the oppressor and they're all subject to this new form of racism . do you think? i mean, racism. do you think? i mean, i've often made the case that i don't think that this can be reduced to a question of left wing right wing. and wing versus right wing. and

actually woke ideology actually the woke ideology kind of neither or is as of is neither or is as complicated matter so that people think it's about left versus right, but actually it's not. shouldn't mean, not. it shouldn't be. i mean, fact that clearly have left fact that i clearly have left wing views on a lot of policy issues mean that i'm issues should mean that i'm welcomed wing welcomed into the left wing take. but again, but i'm not i'm not by many of the people that i've worked with for many years. soon series take different soon series take a different position on on these complex social dynamics all of a sudden now you're you're considered sort of trump ajc or, you know alt right adjacent i've even heard i've even heard all centre recently alt centre alt centre. yeah. so you know, and, and i've stopped worrying about it, you know, i believe what i believe and i'm and i'll support the causesi and i'm and i'll support the causes i support and i'll vote for the people i vote for. but and you can tell it like any social movement that tries to define people outside any political movement that wants it to find people outside of it, you can tell a sick i mean that's that's a problem you know why wouldn't you want why would any wouldn't you want to your ranks you want to

to expand your ranks you want to work with more people on issues like justice reform, like criminal justice reform, reform states? yes reform in the united states? yes not establish litmus not and not establish litmus test to keep people out. that's what's happening to. yeah, i mean there's a lot of tribalism going on. i know from personal experience, people left experience, people on the left who take critical of the woke who take a critical of the woke ideology automatically ideology are automatically branded right even branded right wing or even worse than or something than that. right, or something like just seems like that. and it just seems a lot of it is kind of historical illiteracy, it? just illiteracy, isn't it? and just not understanding, and not understanding, i think. and i living in time i think we're living in a time of great political scientists, calls political sorting. people are much politically are feeling much politically tribalistic than they have in the past. and we're being sort of into these very narrow of pushed into these very narrow definitions that , i don't think definitions that, i don't think really serve us well. and it's preventing us from talking to each problems, each other and solving problems, too. what can you give us some examples some instance of how examples of some instance of how anti—semitism us in some anti—semitism in the us in some areas been has been areas has been has been increasing? yeah. so what we're seeing and on all sides so you seeing and on all sides so you see it on the right and by the way happening because there way it's happening because there are conspiracy are ideal and conspiracy theories , really simplistic

theories, really simplistic explanations are sort of finding their way and all the ideological camps. so yes, you have the great replacement theory in the united states, which immigrants are which holds that immigrants are replacing guess replacing americans and guess who's replacing jews? who's doing the replacing jews? so source of so that is source of antisemitism on the right . you antisemitism on the right. you also have, of course, a an islamist version of anti—semitism, too, that you see in certain sectors that you especially on college campuses, that's rise to a variant of anti—semitism . you have you have anti—semitism. you have you have anti—semitism. you have you have a blocs supremacist version that holds that , for example, that holds that, for example, that black people are the real jews and the jews on the covenant. yeah. and then you have what i would call wokeist i semitism or radical social justice anti—semitism and, and that that views the jews as part of the oppressor class and that's really what's giving rise to the anti—semitism really on all and on all sides all at once . do you on all sides all at once. do you think that the reason why woke , think that the reason why woke, which is what you outline in your book is on the rise, is because those identify as woke. take view that can't take the view that can't possibly prejudiced , that

possibly be prejudiced, that they're not capable of that because they're the good because they're they're the good guys. yeah. the first, the first clue i had was going back 20 years when i heard the years ago when i heard the phrase prejudice. phrase racism equals prejudice. plus and i remember hearing that the first time and i thought to myself, so that if i'm viewed as a part of the powerful class that i can't be victim and that i can't be a victim and somebody who's part of is somebody who's part of what is considered part of the victim class can't a victimiser and class can't be a victimiser and i that that was problematic i knew that that was problematic and in 20 years ago and and i about in 20 years ago and said if this really catches on we're in and i think that's exactly what's happened that's really interesting because that idea of redefining racism as an equafion idea of redefining racism as an equation prejudice power, equation, prejudice plus power, that's the sort of that's now the sort of intersectional definition of the term. but it's also it's also coming to dictionaries , for coming to dictionaries, for instance, changed their definition of racism to include that element of privilege and power and, those kind of things. but that's not what it means. and that's certainly not the way i mean, that shouldn't that it should mean that when prejudiced against you should against a group, you should considered why has considered a racist. so why has that taken much? why has

that taken hold so much? why has the movement the intersectional movement become of our become so powerful in all of our major institutions? the major institutions? to the extent that can have a dictionary definition changed, it's it's really amazing it's really it's really amazing to look back. i mean, it to sort of look back. i mean, it was in 1968 when you had this real of certain universities , real of certain universities, often called the long march through institutions. yeah. and it was and it was as you put it before, it was really confined to the university for many many years. but you started even years. and but you started even in like the late 1990s, early 2000, started it in 2000, you started to see it in the corporate sector, you start to in institutional life. to see it in institutional life. and growing and growing. and it was growing and growing. in 2014. i was the of a of a campus oriented organisation. i remember almost you remember almost overnight you could difference in the could feel the difference in the campus environment and it just from there it got worse and worse. and obviously george floyd was a tipping point in the discourse and you could i mean, it just transformed formed overnight the discourse overnight almost the discourse in america. and i think a lot of people just caved at that point. you were holding you know, if you were holding off diversity equity off on and diversity equity inclusion a course of inclusion program a course of version of that you might have then caved that point because

then caved at that point because was so much pressure and. i was just so much pressure and. i like i call this identitarian deference it's when you defer to another group who has the authority define the world for you and think that's very problematic . i know you actually problematic. i know you actually talk and write about right about that and you see you that as well. and you see you saw it in institutions, you saw it in jewish organisations as well after george floyd that they well know what, they said, well you know what, we're really in a place we're really not in a place where can articulate for where we can articulate this for the of society, so we'll the rest of society, so we'll hire a new dea coordinator or a consultant we'll just defer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them.1t we'll just defer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them. and we'll just defer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them. and once ll just defer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them. and once you st defer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them. and once you sign fer hire a new dea coordinator or a co them. and once you sign on to them. and once you sign on the line of deference, the dotted line of deference, you really very room you really have very little room of. yeah, they of. manoeuvrability yeah, they become clergy become the kind of clergy and they to decide absolutely they get to decide absolutely everything. i you, david everything. can i ask you, david as about the differences as well about the differences between the between america and the uk? i mean, here the labour party mean, over here the labour party has sorts issues with has had all sorts of issues with anti—semitism. been anti—semitism. there been scandals there . is there a is scandals there. is there a is there anything comparable in america? well, there is. in one sense. the uk has worse off considering the role that corbyn played in labour and another sense i think wokeness itself this ideology has really gone

much deeper and much further in american society than as in uk . american society than as in uk. by the way, canada is even worse because there's no opposing political force in canada. so yeah, so it's just moving freely throughout institution and in capturing institutions . but i capturing institutions. but i don't think the united or the democratic party is susceptible immediately to a corbyn like figure because democratic voters are still relatively moderate. there's that many aoc or ilhan omar is being elected . they're omar is being elected. they're still having to win over a swath of their districts. so i think we're in immediate danger of corporatisation . but look, ten corporatisation. but look, ten more years of this ideology untamed , who knows what it's untamed, who knows what it's going to be like? well i mean, biden was elected on the idea that was the non—white candidate, but has been so much of what he's actually done would suggest isn't necessarily suggest that isn't necessarily true is quite true and that maybe he is quite susceptible to the squad. you know, those people who have had connections anti—semitism, connections with anti—semitism, many members many people i speak with members of people who also of congress and people who also who of who work with members of congress that congress in the sense that i have, that even though these

have, is that even though these are still being moderate members, they're always looking over their left shoulder. they're always worried about that coming from that , that energy coming from that, well, core the party. and well, core of the party. and they're they're factoring in how they're they're factoring in how they think and how they vote. i think that's a problem. i think biden is doing just that. just finally, because we don't have much david we much time. david how do we combat this, of this combat this, the rise of this ideology, you say, in canada ideology, as you say, in canada when no opposition to when there is no opposition to it? does riot and there's it? it does riot and there's nothing do. so how we nothing you can do. so how do we do this there's so many do this when so there's so many misunderstandings about, first of what it means. yeah, of all, what it means. yeah, well, all, i believe well, first of all, i believe that vast majority of people that the vast majority of people don't and we have don't buy into it. and we have polling that shows that. so the first thing we have to do is help people courage is help people become courage is taxes. other thing that taxes. and the other thing that we building new we can is start building new coalitions from, sort coalitions of people from, sort of left and centre of the centre, left and centre right who are opposing extremism on right and are on the far right and are opposing extremism far opposing extremism on the far left. are ethnic left. there are ethnic communities, left. there are ethnic com indianes, left. there are ethnic com indian brits. left. there are ethnic comindian brits. i'm sure left. there are ethnic com indian brits. i'm sure there and indian brits. i'm sure there are americans and are asian chinese americans and chinese , and there jewish chinese, and there are jewish americans jewish , and they americans and jewish, and they can to work together in can start to work together in their voices, heterodox

their black voices, heterodox voices countries . i've voices in both countries. i've met voices are met some nigerian voices are extremely concerned about the current ideological state. we can start to work together and create a new sort of political vibe in our countries. burnside thank you much for joining thank you so much for joining me. pleasure. and me. really great pleasure. and this is the book. this is the book. it's called white antisemitism, and is antisemitism, and this is available to right now after available to buy right now after break, speech nation. break, i'm free speech nation. i'm be joined by the i'm going to be joined by the man gatecrashed party man who gatecrashed a party at an art gallery claiming to an art gallery by claiming to be an art gallery by claiming to be a i'll be back in 3 a critic. i'll be back in 3 minutes .

welcome to free speech nation . welcome to free speech nation. so have you ever wanted to go to a private party, an art gallery? well, my next guest was dared to do that. and amazingly managed to it off. pembridge to pull it off. james pembridge told doorman at a gallery in told the doorman at a gallery in shoreditch that shoreditch in east london that he art critic and he was he was an art critic and he was waved through. james is the deputy editor of a country

esquire magazine, joins esquire magazine, and he joins me now. james welcome to the show. you. and on show. thank you. and why on earth did want to this earth did you want to go to this exhibition? well, didn't want exhibition? well, i didn't want to just, as say, dead to i was just, as you say, dead into right. and i'm not one into it. right. and i'm not one to turn a dare. and so, you to turn down a dare. and so, you know, i thought, well, why not? i'll try it. and think it was i'll try it. and i think it was just really due to the kind of bohemian way that i dress and slightly vaguely fruity accent . slightly vaguely fruity accent. and i got in. and so you weren't on the list? i wasn't on the list now. so when i went to the doorman, he said, sorry, my friend, you're not on the list. and i said, and i repeated my name. and in as arrogant tone as i could, sitting then and said james pembridge in the art james pembridge is in the art critic he actually believed critic and he actually believed it of course, mr. it and said, oh, of course, mr. this way, this way. so it's just confidence. yeah, confidence . confidence. yeah, confidence. yeah. now, what kind of exhibition was this? just to give us some sense modern art. one. okay, so the kind of i think we've got an image of the kind of thing that was at this this exhibition very, very go. beautiful. now very powerful

that so i hate to sound cynical and i do like to defend artists, but there are some elements of conceptual modern art that i just think, you know, if you that to michelangelo's david which you know where you going. and i'm not opposed to modern art in every sense. yeah. it's, you know, some i mean, so one of the pieces in this gallery was depicted a sort of man in mickey mouse ears with his tongue out like a rutting mutt. and i was thinking, well, like a rutting mutt. and i was thinking, well , mickey, mickey thinking, well, mickey, mickey is the artist almost admitting to taking the mickey ? yes. to taking the mickey? yes. i think in some some of them are. and it was just an acid there about 20 minutes or so before they caught on. the fact that i wasn't, in fact, an art critic. but you also got into conversations about the art, and you don't know anything about motion? no, i just blanked it. so do you plug it? mean, so, so do you plug it? i mean, so, for instance, you were saying for instance, if you were saying that blue lines squiggles on that the blue lines squiggles on the how you you the on the canvas, how you you know , comment on that in a way know, comment on that in a way that learned. well, the that sounds learned. well, the thing andrew, that i had

thing is, andrew, that i had probably five glasses of free some champagne that they were offering that helps to say, yes, it did help. lots and so there's this one woman who said something like, what did she say of james? how did you get into the art business or something like that? i said, oh, and again , i was blocking it. and i said something like, darling, want doesn't get into the art business often self—interest business often vs self—interest 3.55 of being art is all of our business. and she said, oh wow, that's that really that's not touches me. and that's what kind of set the intellectual tone of the evening. so, james, what's going on here? is this just pure mischief or do you have a satirical point here ? no, it's satirical point here? no, it's just pure mischief. i was just okay. i just wondered the question. i'll be honest. you were trying to a comment were trying to make a comment about criticism generally about art criticism generally and level and how there's a level of fraudulence within fraudulence that goes on within it. well, know, what it. well, you know, what happened was when they finally what was eventually it what happened was eventually it was all going it was all going well. they all believed i an art critic. and then , unfortunately,

critic. and then, unfortunately, a said james, as an art a woman, said james, as an art critic, i'd like to hear your thoughts on this piece, that piece the blue piece that you just the blue squiggle. and so i had this sort of court of loyal followers now like them behind me , like 12 of them behind me, clinging to my art, like life , clinging to my art, like life, like lives without realising that the organ from which i that was the organ from which i spoke. and thought, well, what spoke. and i thought, well, what do do now? i are my real do i do now? i what are my real thoughts piece? mean, thoughts on this piece? i mean, i thought was as hideous i thought it was as hideous an example postmodern garbage as example of postmodern garbage as can be imagined. and so then i what did i say something like , what did i say something like, oh, well, so i know, first of all, i tried to get out. so i said, well, i like to keep my thoughts to my writing. and then one moment protested saying, you know, we're all very discreet in here . you can say it. and here. you can say it. and i thought, oh, god. okay, fine . so thought, oh, god. okay, fine. so i said something like , well, i said something like, well, clearly it's self—referential . clearly it's self—referential. you know, the artist is a confession piece of sorts . the confession piece of sorts. the artist is saying is more in love with. the idea of art and the practise itself. where did that

come from? what did it mean? good design? we know it was met murmurs approval . well, murmurs of approval. well, people found what you said. interesting and yeah , it's both interesting and yeah, it's both . or at least they were being polite to and that they found it insightful . yes. yes. they were insightful. yes. yes. they were holding onto it. okay. and then. but then so i was about to leave. then one woman began googung leave. then one woman began googling me and said, james, i can see that you're a writer, but you don't seem to write about art and in fact, you seem to have written some horrible, insulting mystic things about emily maitlis. insulting mystic things about emily maitlis . and then, of emily maitlis. and then, of course, she was waves of , horror course, she was waves of, horror and indignation . and then you and indignation. and then you were kicked out . well, then the were kicked out. well, then the gallery said your name will be mud. and i said , well, it's mud. and i said, well, it's already several ways blows out, madam . and do you feel at all madam. and do you feel at all bad about misleading people, though? i mean, it's it is deception, isn't it? well, i said, what is the because deception me passing myself office an art critic or you passing this that transits will often champagne. you know , and

often champagne. you know, and there's a serious comment though to be made here about conceptual art and sometimes i do get very frustrated because i do think there's a there are a lot of talented artists working today, but lot of bilge which but i think a lot of bilge which which which as art, which which which passes as art, which has merit if honest, has no merit at. if i'm honest, i mean, was a case in i mean, there was a case in italy , the cleaner in a modern italy, the cleaner in a modern art gallery tidied up an artwork because she thought was because she thought it was garbage. there's so many garbage. so there's so many stories like that. i mean, i think in someone going to an yeah, , outside the tate yeah, i mean, outside the tate gallery something the builders removed art so they're thinking it was garbage. exactly. so if that can happen , you know, then that can happen, you know, then then something has gone wrong in art generally. i mean, is that is that a fair point, do you think? i think it's fair point. and, you know, when i was at university, i was studying, studying so—called art, studying so—called fine art, it was nothing fine art. and was nothing but fine art. and it was nothing but fine art. and it was all tracey, emin , damien was all tracey, emin, damien hirst , you know, trash like hirst, you know, trash like that. oh, so you were studying art. do you have you have some expertise i suppose that's expertise then? i suppose that's how block my way how i kind of block my way through gallery . yes. you through that gallery. yes. you see, i so . so do you think

see, i so. so what do you think has why is there has happened? why is there this? i mean, roger scruton has i mean, i know roger scruton has written about duchamp and how his urinal meant to be a his urinal was meant to be a joke, now artists of joke, but now artists sort of repeat that thing as though repeat that same thing as though it the equivalent of it is the equivalent of a cellini. well, i think the post—modernist art movement is similar to postmodernist writers . just want to they don't want the lower orders . the end of the the lower orders. the end of the you know, they want it. they want it to keep it . and they do want it to keep it. and they do want it to keep it. and they do want the orders go in that sphere . elite ism is completely sphere. elite ism is completely out. and you think that that's part of the criticism as well as the statues of the world and the people who produce the art itself that they are effectively finding a way to create a domain that only the those who are in it. and it's complete joke. i mean, most of them don't believe in it themselves . it's just a in it themselves. it's just a way to remove themselves. i said from the they were orders of society. okay. and you don't feel at all bad about deceiving the people? no, no, art. great.

i'm doing. it's an honour. and hopefully gain. fact, what hopefully to gain. in fact, what was going to do next was trying to kind north to infiltrate this kind of north london dinner party sect. although i don't think i can do that because most people that now because most people would. would know would. i think they would know they least that's what the they or at least that's what the you they did at gallery you like they did at the gallery on the on phone. well good luck with your undercover work. and if tell us about if come back and tell us about it. pembridge everyone . it. james pembridge everyone. and after the break, i'm free speech nation. we're going be looking at the best social media videos the week. and the panel will try to solve your problems in unfiltered dilemmas. not in unfiltered dilemmas. do not go anywhere .

on mark dolan tonight. one of the most important figures in british politics, the leader of the dup's sir jeffrey donaldson. in my big monologue as teachers to go on strike, have people not suffered enough after years of

school closures? in my take it ten is mp andrew bridgen writes to raise vaccine concerns plus the papers my own staff . and in the papers my own staff. and in the papers my own staff. and in the big question is clarke right that the conservative need a break from power? i'll be asking tory legend ann widdecombe. we're live from . we're live from. nine welcome back to free speech nafion welcome back to free speech nation with me, andrew doyle. now every week we dedicate this part of the show to the world of social media. and we're going to start a video of rishi sunak's trip to scotland this week . he trip to scotland this week. he was interviewed by stv political editor colin mackay . and it's editor colin mackay. and it's fair to say the two men didn't really want to talk about same topic. let's have a look. so i'm asking you about asking about the possibility a final the possibility of a the final referendum, general referendum, the next general election, which for the first election, which is for the first minister. supposing you still get money. would get quite a lot of money. would you accept the idea of we didn't

talk about the next election? what did talk about, though, what we did talk about, though, is can do to is the things that can do to deliver people here. deliver for people here. scotland, by working constructively together and today's two new today's announcement of two new freeports completely freeports would be a completely ignonng freeports would be a completely ignoring which ignoring my question, which is about possibility the about the possibility of the next general election de next general election being a de facto you facto referendum. would you accept outcome of one accept the outcome of one focussed on the asking for your vote going? i'm asking to focus on this because a lot of people in scotland very interested in this. would you accept the outcome of the referendum ? no, i outcome of the referendum? no, i was out all yesterday was out all of yesterday evening, of today. evening, but not all of today. and people are talking to and what people are talking to me about we can do to me about is what we can do to actually make their lives better in about what in the. to talk about what they're you've they're talking about. you've just ignore question. just going ignore my question. i'm going. it is kind of frustrating, isn't it? just one politic audience. just don't answer question. like answer the question. it's like that jeremy paxman was answer the question. it's like thmichael jeremy paxman was answer the question. it's like thmichael howard ny paxman was answer the question. it's like thmichael howard ny askman was answer the question. it's like thmichael howard ny ask him was answer the question. it's like thmichael howard ny ask him the it michael howard to ask him the same 17 times? but the same question? 17 times? but the difference this difference of between this interview like is interview is, i feel like is genuinely that he's going genuinely afraid that he's going head. but i right? yeah is head. but am i right? yeah is that element i don't know be racist towards scottish people but that was slur. i'm being but that was his slur. i'm being racist about it. i was worried

josh was going all the josh was going to charge all the money controlled media. you money and controlled media. you know, it's just in the way. if you if you watched that video with sound it's like with the sound off, it's like it's nice. it's like, don't it's so nice. it's like, don't ever maybe josh ever he's. so maybe maybe josh is maybe it was sunak's anti is by maybe it was sunak's anti scottish prejudice. no not at all. no. what's happening here. the stv which is what itv is called in scotland. some reason even the television has got an independent stv are in the pocket . the snp they're never pocket. the snp they're never this critical this attacking with the snp . but because the with the snp. but because the snp ads and you know the scottish government places all these ads on tv, the stv know that they've got to like please see if play nicely snp and then attack the interesting context. so i didn't realise that. so you don't think that that guy colin mackay would be like this with nicholas sturgeon? all he. nicholas sturgeon? not all he. oh oh you're mommie oh dear lord. oh you're mommie dearest know. i do think there's a there's a kind of castro bootleg, but i think there is a place for the interview with particular when to particular when it comes to politicians, they have to be held to account totally. but in

this case, it just was a bit aggressive. you think it was aggressive. if you think it was aggressive. if you think it was a bit well, even just he a bit much. well, even just he was interrupting you really was interrupting you and really making of thinking it's making a point of thinking it's going is going to go viral. this is brilliant. yeah, yeah. so you think what about? think that's what it was about? okay i just pay no respect to prime minister. i'm not bothered about okay. all right. about that. no. okay. all right. well, to on the next well, let's move to on the next video. this was video. now, this was this was recorded a teacher in the recorded by a teacher in the united identifies as united states who identifies as non binary and. this is from a primary school. so this is kids young as five. they're learning about pronouns some of them, including a and m and ginger , including a and m and ginger, all that nonsense that's usually start with this book, which i absolutely it introduces a variety pronouns as well as pronouns that someone might use . there's also a great video on amazed story that goes into pronouns and how to respect people's . all these lessons are people's. all these lessons are donein people's. all these lessons are done in our meeting or in our l.a. time because they're connected with writing and with reading, and they hit all our standards this year's chart is a little wonky . all of these are little wonky. all of these are from the students. the

description and definition i help them with. but then the what to say and how to correct comes explicitly from them. and as you can see, it hangs up on her social justice wall right behind me. and then the infamous llama corn and narwhal is what we move so we actually we move into. so we actually practise the sayings came up with using stuffed animals with using the stuffed animals animals so that social justice war has a lot of stuff on it. josh i mean , how do they get josh i mean, how do they get time to do any actual lessons? well, let me just quickly check out social justice will. so out my social justice will. so it's just it's disgusting. it's child abuse . you know, it's child abuse. you know, it's someone teaching non—teaching stuff . i someone teaching non—teaching stuff. i mean, someone teaching non—teaching stuff . i mean, it's someone teaching non—teaching stuff. i mean, it's insane. and i know that like, oh, we're going to get people angry and let's get people. you just want that stuff. this is teaching little kids . five it's little kids. five it's ridiculous . little kids. five it's ridiculous. this i mean the multiple pronouns like he's not just he she is made up stuff like trying to just them just the basics that's what just want to do and this that it's really

all right . zim and the really all right. zim and the really useful pronouns for people and what's really important we teach kids what we want stuff instead of teaching them, you know, maths or english or one of those, you know, white supremacist colonial. can i ask you, have you ever met anyone with pronouns or pronouns in with m pronouns or pronouns in china . i just don't know where china. i just don't know where these people i see them on tik tok all the time, you know, these people put these videos up, but have you ever had to you might recognised one of my kids teachers put up a video like that? yeah, i would be protesting outside the school the next day. the thing the next day. well, the thing about it, it wouldn't be legal here, it? because it's an here, would it? because it's an ideological or because the ideological thing or because the education act, i think, is an right. still it. they right. right. still it. they probably do. absolutely probably still do. absolutely because i think on the because i think they're on the right it is right side of history. but it is frustrating some point, frustrating and at some point, surely and there are loads of these. problem with this is these. the problem with this is we it's just a we can say, well, it's just a rogue teacher. right. but there are these videos, you are so many of these videos, you

kind think maybe kind of think maybe homeschooling idea homeschooling such a bad idea and always like that. and they always look like that. they're always really obvious. you know saville, you you know how jemmy saville, you know, obvious. know, dressed like an obvious. it obvious, you know, it was so obvious, you know, i mean, some these people, mean, some of these people, they're obviously going to mean, some of these people, thea re obviously going to mean, some of these people, thea good/iously going to mean, some of these people, thea good job, ly going to mean, some of these people, thea good job, your going to mean, some of these people, thea good job, your kids.|g to mean, some of these people, thea good job, your kids. so 0 mean, some of these people, thea good job, your kids. so if do a good job, your kids. so if you if you go in your kids you see if you go in your kids school and you see a teachers that look like homeschool that look like that homeschool your kids. the thing about your kids. but the thing about it i was a teacher, as you it is, i was a teacher, as you know, and i get the temptation when you've got a captive audience your politics audience to your politics onto them. but you them. so it's, you know, but you don't just don't you of don't you just don't you sort of you play devil's advocate, you you play devil's advocate, you you play devil's advocate, you talk about various views. this is a political this this is a political view. this is an ideological view. and if you're saying the you're just saying this is the only way that we can talk about this, that's it's not this, then that's not it's not teaching that was that teaching hatred. that was that wall is wall and the different things is how poor kids how confused these poor kids have abc and after have on their abc and i've after the engagement. yeah it's the engagement. yeah. yeah it's just absolute nightmare for just an absolute nightmare for the children. anyway it's a the children. anyway now it's a part show we're going to part of the show we're going to talk your unfiltered talk through your unfiltered dilemmas. for dilemmas. thank you so much for emailing various emailing in your various problems. some of them were a bit to discuss that we bit to discuss things that we didn't them. but here's didn't include them. but here's one in liverpool. bill

one from bill in liverpool. bill says, charge of my says, i've been in charge of my company almost years. company for almost 30 years. almost everyone to leave. but almost everyone me to leave. but i've that had i've told them that they've had good times with me and i should stay in the job. what should i do? well, it sounds like bill isn't popular, but isn't particularly popular, but do is right? do you think bill is right? and everyone wrong. he's everyone else? he's wrong. he's actually great guy. actually a really great guy. everybody that they're everybody thinks that they're a great don't think great person. i don't think democracy take the democracy means you take the majority position, but everyone hates you here and you stick around. that's a lie . i think around. that's a lie. i think you know, i think i think bill, you know, i think i think bill, you got to go to listen to what what do you think, whole bill is this communist? and he said he started the company or he's in charge of it. yes just follow them all. what are you doing, bill? okay well, look, thank you ever so much , bill. i hope that ever so much, bill. i hope that helps. i don't think it does. anyway, thank you much for anyway, thank you very much for joining speech joining us for free speech nafion joining us for free speech nation was the week when the church of england decided to make amends the slave trade. make amends for the slave trade. some j.k. some tried to take j.k. rowling's books rowling's name off her books and.the rowling's name off her books and. the brit awards managed to annoy everybody in the name of progress. thank you to my

wonderful leo kearse and wonderful panel, leo kearse and howie, of course, to my howie, and of course, to my guests this evening. we've had professor robert wintemute ella whelan , harry howard, david whelan, harry howard, david bernstein and james pembridge and you want to join us live in the studio and be part of our wonderful audience. you can do that. look the screen right that. look on the screen right now you can see the website now and you can see the website address that you need to go to. it's w w w dot s audiences dot com along we've got free com come along we've got free wine free booze wine and free booze and moldovans kind of moldovans and all that kind of thing. do join us. and the thing. so do join us. and the show really good too, so you show is really good too, so you may as well just come for that. stay for the brilliant stay tuned for the brilliant mark dolan tonight. that's next. and headliners and don't forget that headliners is night o'clock. is on every night at o'clock. that's late paper show that's the late night paper show where talk you through that's the late night paper show whe next talk you through that's the late night paper show whe next day's talk you through that's the late night paper show whe next day's top:alk you through that's the late night paper show whe next day's top :alk y( stories. gh the next day's top news stories. thanks much for watching. thanks so much for watching. free nation . see next free speech nation. see you next week . hello free speech nation. see you next week. hello again. i hope you're your sunday, but looking ahead weatherwise and it's going to remain cold, there'll be snow for some of us , but also quite for some of us, but also quite a bit of winter sunshine to look forward to as well . reason for forward to as well. reason for the cold weather is this area of low pressure to the east of us

that's allowing our winds to come so cold air come from the north. so cold air plunging across the which is plunging across the uk, which is why going to be cold. why it's going to be so cold. nofice why it's going to be so cold. notice weather notice this weather system waiting that's waiting out the west that's going to fringed south parts as we through sunday night. we go through sunday night. otherwise for many through sunday there'll be sunday night, yes, there'll be some also some clear spells. also some showery sleet snow showery rain, sleet and snow across northern could across some northern parts could lead something of risk lead to something of an ice risk here. and showers piling here. and snow showers piling from across parts of from the north across parts of scotland these could scotland these totals could build as we go through the build up as we go through the night. it is going to be a cold night. it is going to be a cold night even in the south. some places below freezing could get as as minus ten in the as low as minus ten in the sheltered parts of scotland, the rain, parts of rain, sleet and snow parts of the could cause some the southeast could cause some problems doors, that problems early doors, but that will we go through will clear away as we go through the morning. then the morning. otherwise, then through is through monday. for many, it is going to be largely dry with lots of winter sunshine around. yes, showers yes, there'll be some showers towards east and also plenty towards the east and also plenty of towards parts of of showers towards parts of scotland gradually scotland and they are gradually going falling snow. going to be falling snow. but for largely with sunny for many, largely with sunny spells. despite that, though , spells. despite that, though, cold, colder today for cold, colder than today for places generally staying in mid single figures celsius little

change for many as we go through monday evening and so most places staying largely clear but continue to see snow showers across parts of scotland and then rain, sleet and snow then some rain, sleet and snow starting to push from the starting to push in from the southwest we go through southwest as we go through night. an eye on night. need to keep an eye on this because. there could be some significant snow across, some significant snow across, some go some southwestern parts as we go through early hours of tuesday. it to cold tonight it is going to be a cold tonight than coming night many than this coming night for many could low as —11 or could even get as low as —11 or —12, perhaps in the shelter glands of scotland through tuesday. then cold, frosty, tuesday. then a cold, frosty, icy many first icy start for many of us. first thing, watch for the showery thing, watch out for the showery rain, across rain, sleet and snow across southern parts. a little bit of uncertainty regarding how much snow see. it snow we're going to see. but it is worth keeping up to with is worth keeping up to date with that. be wintry that. there'll be further wintry weather go through rest of weather as we go through rest of the week, perhaps drier on thursday. bye thursday. staying cold. bye bye for you later .

welcome to gloria mates. it's the real me with labour mp kim leadbeater , her sister jo cox leadbeater, her sister jo cox was murdered in 2016 while she was murdered in 2016 while she was doing her job as an mp. was doing herjob as an mp. you've then got losing people through illness. you've got losing people through, you know, all sorts of different circumstances. i think murder just gives everything a whole new dimension . i've been to the new dimension. i've been to the marginal constituency seat of ashfield in nottinghamshire, so get the views of voters there. which one would you rather see as prime minister and shadow leader of the house? sangam debbonaire we shouldn't have to tolerate the sort of wrongdoing that puts people in fear, that makes people fearful at work. all that after your news . good all that after your news. good afternoon . it's 6:01. i'm