talking today. i'm wondering, are we a something for nothing nafion? are we a something for nothing nation.7 that's the headlines today. nation.7 that's the headlines today . apparently more than half today. apparently more than half of us take more from this day than what we've put in. does that matter? are we a bunch of ground us or is it a little bit more complicated than that? and when it comes to terror, transparency, particularly when it comes to things like taxes , it comes to things like taxes, how much privacy do you think those in the public office should have? the same as all of us or lesser. the reason i'm asking is because, of course,

you might be aware that a former chancellor naseem zarqawi, he is in trouble right now. why all to do with taxes . and some people do with taxes. and some people are saying they're this proves they're all employees should have to make that tax returns pubuc have to make that tax returns public should it really? i say no, but what says you and are you taking part in the new trial? let's stop this today basically where you'll get a cash incentive if you save electricity during peak times . i electricity during peak times. i hope we're not taking advantage of it right now. i don't want your tv's been switched off, but what do you think? is that the future or not? and are we heading for a two tier nature ? heading for a two tier nature? so what are your thoughts on all of that? but before we get into it, let's bring ourselves up to speed tonight's latest speed with tonight's latest headunes. speed with tonight's latest headlines . michelle, thank you headlines. michelle, thank you and good evening to you. the top stories on gb news this evening. the prime minister has asked his independence ethics adviser to

investigate the tory party chairs . tax affairs investigate the tory party chairs. tax affairs nadhim zahawi has welcomed the investigation, saying he is confident he did act properly throughout . the former throughout. the former chancellor has admitted he paid a penalty to hmrc following an error over shares in the polling company yougov , which he company yougov, which he co—founded. he hasn't disclosed the size of the settlement , but the size of the settlement, but which is believed to be almost £5 million. rishi sunak, though, says clearly there are questions that need answering . will these that need answering. will these things aren't dealt with by an independent adviser who will fully investigate this matter and provide advice to me as prime minister on the to him always compliance with the ministerial code. that's the right approach. it's the professional approach. and that's how we'll restore integrity and accountability into government overall by making sure that when situations like this arise , we deal with like this arise, we deal with them promptly. we deal with them professionally, and that's what we're doing in this case. well labour's deputy leader, angela

rayner , told the prime minister rayner, told the prime minister to take some account ability this breach isn't a breach. if this breach isn't a breach. if this isn't a breach of the ministerial code, surely the code itself is wrong. mr. speaker , and it's the prime speaker, and it's the prime minister's job to fix it. how can the prime minister claim to deliver the integrity , deliver the integrity, professionalism and accountable polity that he promised while his conservative party chair still sits in his cabinet ? and still sits in his cabinet? and another problems for the conservative party. the bbc chairman, richard sharp , says he chairman, richard sharp, says he welcomes a review of the processes around being appointed to the role by the commissioner of public appointments . that's of public appointments. that's after mr. sharp asked for a scrutiny panel to examine potential conflicts of interests following claims he was involved in securing a loan of up to £800,000 for boris johnson. he insists he didn't make or arrange any loan and only made an introduction to a guarantor.

meanwhile, thousands of ambulance workers are striking for the third time in five weeks, unison and gmb union members are crossing land and wales have walked out along with staff at two hospital trusts in liverpool . further industrial liverpool. further industrial action is planned in the coming weeks by nurses and other nhs workers . weeks by nurses and other nhs workers. union weeks by nurses and other nhs workers . union leaders weeks by nurses and other nhs workers. union leaders are calling for fair pay, accusing the government of not wanting to find a resolution . national find a resolution. national officer at unite union owen kasab told gb news this isn't just about pay. it's about saving the nhs , not just the saving the nhs, not just the matter of the ambulances queuing up outside. it's about what's going on in the hospital as well. it's about not being able to discharge people quickly enough and it's about not having enough and it's about not having enough staff to be able to deal with those patients. so it's not just one person in the hospital's responsibility . if hospital's responsibility. if you want to find one person whose responsibility it is, then it is. it is rishi sunak. it is an abdication of leadership. and

he now needs to take charge . for he now needs to take charge. for the last hour, households who've got smart metres could receive discounts if they cut their energy use the second day in a row. it's after successful trials. national grid launching its demand flexibility scheme, which is run for the last hour. 26 suppliers have signed up to the initiative , which involves the initiative, which involves paying the initiative, which involves paying businesses and households to turn off appliances for an houn to turn off appliances for an hour. the electricity system says it will run the scheme again tomorrow afternoon after the first live test, which ran from between 5:00 and 6:00 today. and the energy regulator is launching a review of the checks and balances companies use to place customers on prepayment metres . ofgem is prepayment metres. ofgem is threatening legal action if they don't take due care in the process. the chief executive , process. the chief executive, jonathan brearley, says the number of people forced onto prepayment metres is extremely high and vulnerable customers shouldn't be left in the dark and in the cold during the winter months . from april house

winter months. from april house those on median disposable income will spend 10% of that on their energy bills and those relying on the state pension will spend 29. that is a truly extraordinary part of our household budgets . and even with household budgets. and even with the energy price guarantee and energy bills discount scheme. i know that the scale of the challenge for many people out there remains enormous. well, in other news today, an afghan asylum seeker has been found guilty of murdering a 21 year old in a row over an e—scooter on gain. abdul rahim i stabbed thomas roberts twice during an argument in bournemouth in march last year after the verdict, the jury last year after the verdict, the jury was told the asylum seeker had been convicted of murder in serve year and had been sentenced to 20 years in prison. in his absence. a far firefighter is fighting for their life after battling a blaze at a former department store in edinburgh. scottish fire and rescue were called to

the jenna's building at around 1130 this morning. with 22 emergency vehicles sent to the scene, the fire brigades union says at least five fighter fighters have been taken to hospital for treatment. that is up to you, up to date on tv, onune up to you, up to date on tv, online and dab, plus radio with gb news. well, now it's time for more from dewbs& co . more from dewbs& co. thanks for that, polly. well, i'm michel gruber, and i'm keeping you company until 7:00 tonight alongside me, i've got john mccain on the political stress adjacent and a former adviser to tony blair and henry hill with the deputy editor of conservative civ, whom i almost gave you a job promotion then didn't fighting, wouldn't it? well tell you a pay rise and everything. i've got to fix your whole career then i've been a deputy editor of conservative civ joins us you know civ home joins us and you know the drill don't you? not the drill don't you? it's not just history it's

just about history here. it's about at home as well. what about you at home as well. what is tonight? getting is on your mind tonight? getting such tell me gb views that gb such an tell me gb views that gb news is the email or you can news .uk is the email or you can tweet me at gb news or at michelle dewberry if that's your thing. lots of you guys are getting in touch, but in case you've just joined us, you're wondering what's on the agenda for tonight. i to you, for tonight. i want to ask you, are we bunch of lazy so—and—so are we a bunch of lazy so—and—so was apparently for was apparently something for nothing comes nothing generation when it comes to we're taking from nothing generation when it comes to states. we're taking from nothing generation when it comes to states. firste're taking from nothing generation when it comes to states. first ise taking from nothing generation when it comes to states. first is paying from nothing generation when it comes to states. first is paying in.�*m the states. first is paying in. i want to ask you about particularly employees transparency. do you think for example tax returns should be made public? what about this whole energy thing getting cash incentives, if you like, for reducing your energy during peak times is that a good idea or not? and to nhs? is that the future direction we're going in? so i want your thoughts on all of that tonight, but let's get into the top story, shall we? according to at least the front page of the daily mail newspaper, we are a something for nothing nation. this is all basically a report by a think

tank that says for the first time, more than half of people receive more from the government than they contribute contribute in vi. it's hacks. what do you think to this, henry ? i mean, think to this, henry? i mean, this is essentially , if you look this is essentially, if you look at it, it's an artefact of having an ageing population. it's been coming down the tracks for a while. the fact is that more and more people are older, they're not working, and therefore, you know, they're not they're paying taxes because they're not paying taxes because even who are even the ones who are who are working exempt from some working are exempt from some taxes. naturally, older taxes. and naturally, older people more heavily the people draw more heavily on the state life for health state in later life for health care other reasons. now care and other reasons. now there other contributing there are other contributing factors such as the term factors such as the long term sick but sick and everything else, but that fight. if you look that is the fight. if you look if you're comparing us to margaret thatcher or tony blair's that is the single blair's era, that is the single big has huge big change. now that has huge implications for the government, but really but it's not a it's not really a layabout it's layabout issue. it's a structural problem of we have more older people, workers more older people, fewer workers . is not as strong . the economy is not as strong as could that's going as it could be. and that's going to strain on public to put strain on public services. your thoughts from another big factor is that we've effectively raised the school

evening age to 18, and we've also moved to a situation where nearly half of all young people go on to higher education in some either through some form, either through a modern apprenticeship or through going to university or through advanced fee. they the consequence of that is, you know, people can spend up to 21, 22 years at the beginning of life and then 20, 25 years, the end of life not working and paying end of life not working and paying tax. the contribue sitting in all kinds of ways. and the higher the your education, the more you contribute to productivity, the economy. so i think it's scaremongering . and the people scaremongering. and the people who produced this report must have an agenda. and it seems that their agenda is the age old agenda of tory right, which agenda of the tory right, which is , if doubt, cut taxes. agenda of the tory right, which is , if doubt, cut taxes . and is, if in doubt, cut taxes. and this is to try to scare people to say we should need to cut taxes. we don't actually need to cut taxes. last year that did this report turned out, this report and it turned out, you what, we're spending you know what, we're spending more service more on the health service because so i think because of covid. so i think it's got one big problem in it, which is the article says the

top 10% of taxpayers in the uk pay top 10% of taxpayers in the uk pay 53% of income tax. well that's quite low in america. the top 10% taxpayers pay 74% of income tax . so we're actually income tax. so we're actually quite an undertaxed country . quite an undertaxed country. there's lots of room to increase. but you went advocate. oh, you think there's lots of room to increase tax that's going for the rest of working going to for the rest of working americans america's land of americans america's the land of the brave and home the the brave and the home of the free. you don't live free. yeah, but you don't live in america. i live in this country. so do you think they should raise the income? income tax well there tax in this country? well there has period massively has been a period of massively raising workers raising income tax on workers like workers like like myself, workers like yourself, henry to yourself, workers like henry to make us pay for going to work. and i think we need a fairer burden so that those who have wealth and a wider kind of range of wealth and simply income, they should pay more tax and when you mention like older age people, i guess, but if you look at non retired households , they at non retired households, they actually paid an average of £41,000 and a bit more in taxes

than they received in benefits. so they are people that they're not the older people. we're don't talk about pensions, etc. we're talking about i guess your your workers and that middle group and to be very nice group and you to be very nice and you being very polite and all the rest of it. but do you is there no part of you that worries that actually we do have a culture i would argue that a culture and i would argue that it made worse during covid it was made worse during covid when everyone to sit on when you paid everyone to sit on their backsides, basically . and their backsides, basically. and now you've got all now from there you've got all this culture of let's all work from home. from there you've got this all work this culture of let's all work four days instead of five days, and of it. do not and all the rest of it. do not worry that we are kind of changing graft nation changing from a graft nation into one of a well, if we can get benefits and do less, why not? i just i mean, at the margins, that's probably the case. but i think if you're trying to in certain instances but if you're trying to argue from these figures that you simply down the simply have to break down the economic and economic inactivity numbers and the speak for the numbers speak for themselves, is overwhelmingly themselves, it is overwhelmingly people, at the start people, you know, at the start or at the end of life. and then

you factor in the long term sick. there's several sick. there's about several hundred short hundred thousand short term sick, presumably sick, which will be presumably will because of backlogs will be because of nhs backlogs caused pandemic. there caused by the pandemic. there are kinds of reasons and i are all kinds of reasons and i think that the challenge, i don't i don't don't really know, i don't necessarily it's necessarily think it's scaremongering. i think that this a big this actually is a big structural for the structural problem for the british economy that you're trying to balance this very large sort of smaller large state on a sort of smaller working tax base, and that working age tax base, and that has term implications. has long term implications. but i challenge i think actually the challenge for tories you if you for the tories is if you if you want to crack on these want to crack down on these numbers, fine, but you have to once start explaining once you start explaining how you're going to do it. you know, john talked about shifting the balance of tax balance of the burden of tax away foreign workers. fine. away from foreign workers. fine. well, probably means well, that probably means shifting, shifting shifting, you know, shifting it more with more to on older people with wealth that's not wealth and assets. that's not something party something the conservative party or think labour or indeed i think the labour party to find an easy party are going to find an easy political and using is political sell and do using is perhaps an element this. what perhaps an element of this. what john saying or perhaps john was saying or perhaps trying to push or let's lay the seeds foundation cutting seeds foundation for cutting taxes. do there's an taxes. do you think there's an agenda that? there or not? agenda like that? there or not? i mean, look, there's a certain that party, or that the conservative party, or at chunk of the

at least a big chunk of the conservative party wants conservative party always wants to to taxes and to always want to cut taxes and will cut taxes will want to cut taxes regardless. don't necessarily regardless. i don't necessarily think is doing think this report is about doing that doesn't answer that because it doesn't answer the problem, which the structural problem, which is if taxes on the narrower if you cut taxes on the narrower working age that's working age group that's currently most of the currently generating most of the revenue, you still have to pay for big right? you for that big state right? you still to pay for social still have to pay for social care. still have to pay care. you still have to pay for the you still to pay the nhs. you still have to pay for universal credit. so i think the does a tax the question is how does a tax cutting get you a cutting agenda get you to a point where the british state is more sustainable? and if you don't argument and don't have that argument and i've it yet, it's not i've not heard it yet, it's not this isn't really case for this isn't really a case for cutting taxes in and of itself. i mean, some would push i mean, some people would push back actually, if back and say, actually, if you're cutting taxes, you have the perhaps the opportunity perhaps to raise more long term more tax in the long term because you won't see the situation that just had situation that we just had proposed of weeks ago, proposed a couple of weeks ago, which amount so—called which is the amount of so—called millionaires leaving millionaires that are leaving the emails the uk. someone emails a millionaire's saying millionaire's retirement, saying in the cabinet that seems well yeah, going consider yeah, we're going to consider actually multimillionaires. actually, actually multimillionaires. actutthat about people in onto that about people out in the hallway and what's on the hallway and what's going on with there . one of with the taxation there. one of my view is and i'll find, you

know, in a second because it came in right at the start of the programme, she was saying that couple of that she's got a couple of friends working, that she's got a couple of friends working , they only friends working, but they only work maximum , i think she said work a maximum, i think she said 16 hours because you've got this perverse disincentive once you start going over 7 hours, you lose your benefits or you reduce the mix. that's right. and it just makes working, not pay. does that concern you? well, it definitely concerns me that there are those kinds of incentives to stop working. and it seems to me that you could sort that the system that we had before in the tax credits wasn't as vicious on people. it didn't take money away so quickly. it was more generous and actually encourage more more encourage more people, more people work. so universal people to work. so universal credit me been one of credit for me has been one of the great policy disasters of this government. but the other thing like the thing i'd say is like the article we've been talking about talks about the number of people in fifties who've stopped in the fifties who've stopped working. working working. they stopped working dunng working. they stopped working during lockdown. not during lockdown. they're not going work and know going back to work. and you know what? there's what? that's because there's a lot of people who think work isn't the way they that

isn't the way they get that enjoyment from and good on enjoyment from life and good on them. go to work if them. run, don't go to work if you you've off your you can. if you've paid off your mortgage got a decent mortgage and you've got a decent pension good savings you've pension and good savings you've saved you, saved for this, good on you, just give up work and go just just give up work and go and enjoy your life. but then because i saw you made this point as well in article point as well in an article that you but don't because you wrote, but i don't because your tells me you want to your face tells me you want to respond. you want to respond to that. you ask me the that. now you ask me the question and i'll leave it. and i going to because the i was going to say, because the point he was making, point that he was just making, i think echoed a similar point think you echoed a similar point in article you wrote. in an article that you wrote. i think was yesterday when you think it was yesterday when you saying everyone lives saying that not everyone lives this desperate to become this life desperate to become this life desperate to become this productive if this productive hmrc, but if you've an economy that does you've got an economy that does have staff shortages as we do right it everywhere right now, it seems everywhere really often a lot really struggling or often a lot of use that an of businesses use that as an excuse provide workers excuse to provide workers salaries. that's a different salaries. so that's a different argument. do you incentivise argument. how do you incentivise people then to get back to work now? it is it is a challenge. the article that i wrote that i think you referring to think that you were referring to is that i think there is basically that i think there is basically that i think there is a danger the is a danger for the conservatives who in principle do stay home do value, say, stay at home

parents groups. you parents and other groups. you know, taking very know, in taking this very treasury in which treasury brained view in which everyone is an economic cog that's either spinning or not spinning. issue spinning. but i think the issue with regards to older people specifically is that of specifically is that a lot of older sitting on an older people are sitting on an awful of wealth and they are awful lot of wealth and they are awful lot of wealth and they are a dominant part the a very dominant part of the electoral of the electorate at the and they taking the moment. and they are taking a lot a lot of state a lot of a lot of state services. it's not it's not simply they're simply that they're self—sufficient. i think john maybe described a lot of people as self—sufficient. they're not really their really they've paid in all their lives, amount that lives, but the amount that they've does not they've paid in does not actually best. i mean, actually match the best. i mean, that's just that doesn't actually match in actually it doesn't match in many cases the amount that they're taking out. and therefore, burden is therefore, that burden is falling age people. falling on working age people. and the case, i don't and if that is the case, i don't think it's fair to say think it's fair to simply say you've paid in enjoy. would think it's fair to simply say you'do paid in enjoy. would think it's fair to simply say you'do then?1 enjoy. would think it's fair to simply say you'do then? ienjoy. would think it's fair to simply say you'do then? i would. would think it's fair to simply say you'do then? i would. wellwould you do then? i would. well i mean, is it's difficult for mean, this is it's difficult for the government, but i think that you need strong incentives to get are them get people who are before them in age to keep working in time and age to keep working if they're going to be if they if they're going to be otherwise taking state otherwise be taking state services. frankly, you need services. and, frankly, you need things the tax, things like the better tax, which at. let's which labour looks at. let's have bit let's have bedroom

have a bit let's have a bedroom tax occupiers. if tax for owner occupiers. if you've got if you're under occupying your house, your kids are out, should get are moved out, you should get taxed those bedrooms empty taxed on those bedrooms as empty bedrooms make you bedrooms and that will make you think the house. think about selling the house. and the house, and if you sell the house, there'll be family houses there'll be more family houses available as a consequence of your pressure the your less pressure on the housing better housing market. every be better off. a lot of off. but there's a lot of people, if we say that people who live in council houses should tax should pay a bedroom tax for under occupying, let's have a proper bedroom tax and the private the people proper bedroom tax and the private paid the people proper bedroom tax and the private paid off the people proper bedroom tax and the private paid off the 1e people proper bedroom tax and the private paid off the house ole proper bedroom tax and the private paid off the house got who've paid off the house got lots of in it and lots of wealth in it and actually are living in a house they're rattling and they're rattling around and that's an end to a that's actually put an end to a tax incentive in there and yet they out bill and that they only take out bill and that is why i once floated that as one option. and i think the basically should basically you should just have a referendum people to referendum where people get to choose the choose between having the bedroom abandoning the bedroom tax or abandoning the discretionary planning system so that will confess that for living, i will confess i had an extra coffee today and it me little bit jittery. it made me a little bit jittery. so i do admit i am a little bit almost tired, a bit jittery today. so not not withstanding that, i don't i've gone that, i don't know if i've gone to sleep, woke up in some kind of zone.

of bizarre twilight zone. the pair you are seriously pair of you are seriously advocating is bought advocating if someone is bought and property, and owns their property, you want tax them. they've got want to tax them. if they've got one free spot in the way one tooth free spot in the way that you do in the, let's just say the council house sector , say the council house sector, the you're taxing the reason that you're taxing people council house people in the council house sector because first and sector is because first and foremost, often these are state owned properties with a queue of people needing them. so what you're trying to do that you're trying to tax their spare space to push them into smaller properties, and then free up the next one on the waiting list to have home. and on you go. if have a home. and on you go. if somebody their property, somebody bought their property, what is it got to do with the taxman whoever many taxman or whoever, how many bedrooms got and not bedrooms they've got and not voice demand? well they've got unknown wealth. and they unknown wealth. and if they want, to stay in want, if they want to stay in a house, there's that they've got a windfall of wealth in the capital value of it and they want to rattle around the so that that's fine. they can find want to rattle around the so tiway1at's fine. they can find want to rattle around the so thay to's fine. they can find want to rattle around the so thay to pay1e. they can find want to rattle around the so thay to pay the “hey can find want to rattle around the so thay to pay the extra an find want to rattle around the so thay to pay the extra tax ind want to rattle around the so thay to pay the extra tax they a way to pay the extra tax they could rent them they could rent the they could the rooms out. they could do anything. could actually anything. they could actually release some equity it so if we've many people across

we've got so many people across the country, you've got got wealth have never wealth that they have never earned , it's never taxed. earned, it's never been taxed. it's going to be taxed. now it's not going to be taxed. now we've many families we've got so many families unable get into a house, we unable to get into a house, we have do something to. what if have to do something to. what if someone's bought at the height of the and the market's of the market and the market's struggling we're potentially struggling as we're potentially going forward? going to see going forward? they're now negative equity. they're now in negative equity. would you issue with would you issue them with a credit nobody's in credit then? nobody's in negative at moment. negative equity at the moment. and thing guys and the last thing you guys people would someone's people would if someone's a negative, don't what you're negative, you don't what you're saying is if you've got a capital asset, property, capital asset, your property, your residence has your main primary residence has gone appreciating value gone up an appreciating value you've and therefore, you've not. and so therefore, the state call on the the state should call on the taxpayer if the housing market goes decline. and you goes into decline. and then you have what you have the opposite of what you just , people just described, people whose primary in primary residence is now in negative equity, are going negative equity, are you going to credits to them if the to issue credits to them if the property value of the property falls the than falls in the value of the than the tax on them falls the cost, the tax on them falls l, the cost, the tax on them falls i, i don't think john and i come at this from quite the same position because i don't think |, position because i don't think i, i definitely don't think the, the tax is an ideal the bedroom tax is an ideal solution. but the reason that the has stake what the state has a stake in what a private property owner has is that we have that currently we have a

planning that allows planning system that allows people who houses block people who own houses to block the houses. the development of more houses. now, in my view, you can take the view i think it's the the view and i think it's the ideal view conservative ideal view from a conservative perspective you know, your ideal view from a conservative perspeis ive you know, your ideal view from a conservative perspeis your you know, your ideal view from a conservative perspeis your castle,| know, your ideal view from a conservative perspeis your castle, you»w, your ideal view from a conservative perspeis your castle, you own )ur ideal view from a conservative perspeis your castle, you own it, home is your castle, you own it, it's that's fine. it's your asset. that's fine. but think that a quid pro quo but i think that a quid pro quo of should be that you can't of that should be that you can't block housing development elsewhere, but if you're going to simultaneously be banking, if you the big cash benefits you like the big cash benefits of whilst of owning that property whilst at time endlessly at the same time endlessly filing planning objections and preventing construction preventing the construction of more country more housing that this country desperately is desperately needs, that is immoral. so the question is either your home as either you can have your home as your that you can't your castle, that you can't block other housing for tower blocks around or you accept blocks around you or you accept that, know, it's a village blocks around you or you accept that you know, it's a village blocks around you or you accept that you knora it's a village blocks around you or you accept that you knora stake village blocks around you or you accept that you knora stake in.lage blocks around you or you accept thatyou knora stake in that. and you have a stake in that. you stake in the wider you have a stake in the wider community. but if that's the case, the wider community has a stake in your housing. are you sitting at home with a spare bedroom kids? moved out? bedroom of your kids? moved out? john where that come john if yours is where that come along, that taxing you spare rooms. if it me and i'll rooms. if it was me and i'll settle this house, i'd be settle on this house, i'd be sitting. i go right. my husband, settle on this house, i'd be sitti cani go right. my husband, settle on this house, i'd be sitti can go» right. my husband, settle on this house, i'd be sitti can go» rigrthaty husband, settle on this house, i'd be sitti can go» rigrthat bedroom., you can go into that bedroom. i'll one there and i'll make that one there and office after all, work

office because after all, i work from home all the time. now i'll make that one there a little gem. get one of those. you gem. i'll get one of those. you know, there's fold up exercise bikes want bikes because obviously i want to off the nhs to take the strain off the nhs to take the strain off the nhs to myself fit. so that room to get myself fit. so that room there suddenly no longer vacant. i've coming out with all i've be coming out with all kinds and wacky ways to kinds of weird and wacky ways to fill my bedroom, so i would. what to that? i find what do you say to that? i find it preposterous. i've got to be honest. wouldn't lie. honest. i wouldn't lie. i wouldn't anyone wouldn't be happy if anyone tried my spare bedrooms. tried to tax my spare bedrooms. but still useful but it's still useful as a bedroom, a physical, got exercise bike in it. it still be taxed a bedroom. what do taxed like a bedroom. what do you that? if i put my you think to that? if i put my 19805 you think to that? if i put my 1980s fold up exercise bike and my take the my bedroom tried to take the strain the nhs by keeping strain off the nhs by keeping myself fair that the myself fit, is it fair that the government should come and try and it? tell you what and tax it? i'll tell you what is a is a novel idea. i don't support it, but you might do at home. you be up for it? home. would you be up for it? i mean, you spare bedrooms, taxes. that's one of the ways that we help ourselves this help get ourselves out of this model. to take a quick model. i'm going to take a quick break, give a break, actually give you a couple of minutes to ponder that. and want your thoughts that. and i want your thoughts on it in just couple of on it in just a couple of seconds. i also as want

seconds. but i also as well want your thoughts on whether or not, for affairs for example, mp tax affairs should made public. this, of should be made public. this, of course, the the new course, off the back of the new dames, highway circle dames, the highway circle scandal taxes. give scandal about his taxes. give me your and i'll see you your thoughts and i'll see you into .

hello there. i'm michelle dewberry keeping you company till 7:00 tonight alongside me i've got john mcternan , the i've got john mcternan, the political strategist and former adviser to tony blair and also in the studio with henry hill, the deputy editor of conservative firm john. i am in favour actually of radical ideas. sometimes that's what we need to change things, move things forward. have you just tuned in? you missed the first part of the programme. had part of the programme. john had a idea. if you own your a radical idea. if you own your property, you got spare bedrooms. what about a bedroom tax to try and boost the coffers of this country? you could spend it all on the welfare state. the people that don't want to go to

work. for example, i'm asking, do you agree with that? so the short version is pretty much everyone disagrees . there might everyone disagrees. there might be there agrees be someone out there that agrees and might not have had and you just might not have had time your computer yet. i time to hit your computer yet. i came with a great idea in the came up with a great idea in the break. i'll just explaining it to someone came into to john if someone came into that's house and all that's my house and i'd all these spare bedrooms, i'd just knocked walls knocked the partition walls through create one massive, through and create one massive, huge bedroom . and then you huge bedroom. and then you started saying to me about en suite taxes, so we need to get away from some of this kind of roofs . as i've never heard roofs. as i've never heard anything so ludicrous as taxing people for having extra bedrooms in their own house. they've paid their mortgage . so mind your own their mortgage. so mind your own business. it's the politics of envy. but roof , the point that envy. but roof, the point that john was making is let's just say you've paid your mortgage on your say you've paid your mortgage on you r £10,000 being your £10,000 house. i'm being a bit silly . and of bit silly. and now all of a sudden it's gone up to £900,000. the owner and wealth i guess is what you would point to. i can't believe what i'm hearing, what you would point to. i can't believe what i'm hearing , says

believe what i'm hearing, says kevin. tax folk who've already been taxed and made a decent life and bought their house. how on earth, says pete ? pete says on earth, says pete? pete says how on earth? john talks about a bedroom tax with a straight face. what dreadful i d is. is there anyone out there that does agree with that ? i mean, we do agree with that? i mean, we do have to do something different. maybe that is that i don't know . you tell me. let's talk about tax, shall we? i mean , you won't tax, shall we? i mean, you won't want to be rishi sunak right now. he must just want now. i mean, he must just want to head against a wall to bang his head against a wall or something just be in or something orjust be in despair with his team because it is relentless, isn't it ? not is relentless, isn't it? not just for him, by the way. of course, he got a fixed penalty notices for a seatbelt the other day and now at the chairman of the party is under investigation. and it seems the highway this is an argument basically about taxes, whether or not he disclosed it was all made yougov his polling companies whether or not he declared the right amount of money or received and paid the right amount of taxes on it. john mcternan this has created a

discussion among many saying that there should be more transparency when you're in pubuc transparency when you're in public office, for example, perhaps your return perhaps making your tax return pubuc perhaps making your tax return public , should we? i think so , public, should we? i think so, and i think i'm really stupid . i and i think i'm really stupid. i probably hopes that that policy was in place already because had nadhim zahawi had to publish his taxes, he probably would not have gone to this mess and it would have been over by the weekend because what nadeem has tried to do is say it's a libel. seven of haematite x and then when push went was, yeah, i'm paying my when push went was, yeah, i'm paying my tax. i paid them off. and then the problem, a crisis is if you keep on dripping bits out of it, it makes it last longer . it feels worse. the longer. it feels worse. the public, it looks worse, the public. and what rishi sunak is being exposed as somebody who's indecisive, you know , on indecisive, you know, on wednesday morning, if he's thinking he wakes up and he's thinking, i'm going to get promised questions, i'm going to get six questions from keir starmer. all about nadhim zahawi. he's going to go fire that man. he's going as if far

before pmqs. but this would be a protection for all politicians , protection for all politicians, so they shouldn't be embarrassed to earn , you know, so they shouldn't be embarrassed to earn, you know , £1,000,000 to earn, you know, £1,000,000 from from four speeches like that. one backbencher does. they shouldn't be ashamed . and if shouldn't be ashamed. and if they've got talents, they can sell on the market, but they should pay the taxes and show the public. because if you're a small in the red wall, small business in the red wall, would you got the same would you have got the same treatment nadhim zahawi has treatment than nadhim zahawi has got? i guess i hope my got? but i guess i hope my thoughts actually. henry, give me thoughts . no, thoughts actually. henry, give me thoughts. no, i don't me your thoughts. no, i don't think the mp should have to pubush think the mp should have to publish their tax returns because it's one more thing that is going to be a disincentive to becoming a member parliament. becoming a member of parliament. over years, over the last 20 years, parliament selects parliament already selects really for mps the, you really badly for mps the, you know, the overall calibre of parliamentary and some likely is considered to have gone down and one reason for that is that it is increasingly just unpleasant and is, i think, and onerous. there is, i think, and onerous. there is, i think, a really caustic public attitude amongst the public amongst sections of the public about secondary about mps having secondary earnings. and all this would do if forced mp to

if you if you forced mp to pubush if you if you forced mp to publish tax returns is publish their tax returns is that it would generate endless stories. and ultimately the important secondary important thing about secondary earnings, think we earnings, which i think we sometimes that they sometimes forget, is that they do provide a way for employees to increase income the to increase their income and the standard which of standard of living, which all of us do that isn't us want to do that isn't dependent executive. it's dependent on the executive. it's not of the minister. not in the gift of the minister. that doesn't necessarily involve climbing pole. a climbing the greasy pole. it's a one last out for mp one last hold out for mp independence. and think independence. and i think that if did mandate that all tax if you did mandate that all tax returns published, would returns be published, that would simply that simply be another thing that forced towards this forced us towards this homogenous mp model with no hinterland and an entirely dependent on frontbench patronage. yeah. and i do find it fascinating. what do you think it's got to do with those the earnings of somebody just because they're in public office ? well then tim zahawi threatened a journalist with libel while he was chance the exchequer and while he was fixing his tax bill with the with hmrc civil servants of which he was it was in the how we passed on it was that that is

your agents for tax purposes are acting for you . they are it is acting for you. they are it is you and you cannot possibly have a worse conflict of interest than the boss. the chances checker having his tax affairs negotiated with his own civil servants and that that's that does seem to be on the face of it manifestly a conflict of interest. he should have resigned at that point. he didn't. and the language he's used ever since then saying things like, well, my tax affairs were settled by the time i became a child. the duchy of lancaster is all evasive. he knows somewhere there knows that somewhere in there he's something wrong. if he's done something wrong. if you something wrong, take you do something wrong, take your legs. peter mandelson got a loan another for another mp loan from another for another mp in the labour party . he resigned in the labour party. he resigned because of it all, you know, when are they going to resign? because he took this loan ? or because he took this loan? or did he resign because it was found out? no, resigned found out? no, he resigned because he took the he resigned when it became public. this is pubuc when it became public. this is public this is public

public now. this is public now. people resign . nobody in people used to resign. nobody in this this current government this in this current government resigns out resigns until the hounded out until they get to that moment before promised the question i said the realises he said when the pm realises he can't actually utter defence in the chamber. but the hounding though the hounding is though you think the hounding is getting it's like getting a bit much, it's like every single day, henry i feel like ricochet from some like we ricochet from some political scandal . like, you political scandal. like, you know, a couple of days ago it was which sunak hadn't worn a seatbelt. i don't advocate wearing seat belts, but i mean, come on. this is a prime minister to surrounded by a police escort . i minister to surrounded by a police escort. i mean, it's minister to surrounded by a police escort . i mean, it's not police escort. i mean, it's not a scandal . and sometimes i worry a scandal. and sometimes i worry that there's this desperate appetite for making everything the scandal, scrutiny rising, everything just to try and trip people up . and to your point, people up. and to your point, that will absolutely deter your normal average joe from getting into politics. yeah i mean, it's nice to actually have an opportunity to defend the government. i think the rishi sunak's seatbelt story was soul crushingly trivial and the amount made amount of fuss that was made over was quite depressing. it

over it was quite depressing. it is important that we hold politicians to account for actual and think politicians to account for actu pursuing and think politicians to account for actu pursuing sometimes think politicians to account for actu pursuing sometimes some of that pursuing sometimes some of these stories does these trivial stories does sometimes it a bit more sometimes make it a bit more difficult. but ultimately, you're one of the you're right, because one of the things that's really for things that's really bad for democracy is we democracy actually, is when we and really settled in and this is really settled in since expenses since the expenses scandal is when this taking on genuine when we this taking on genuine bad apples and removing them sort of becomes this caustic overall scepticism towards our entire political class and that's really dangerous because ultimately most employees, even if you look at the recently released, you know, westminster files, when people compiled all of the m.p.s register of interest, most employees aren't on of them on the take. most of them don't have of external have vast amounts of external income. of the ones do income. most of the ones that do those aren't proper . the vast those aren't in proper. the vast majority of them are doing their jobs they're doing jobs and they're doing it properly. i think it's properly. and i think it's really this really unhelpful that this media mindset, which constantly chases down stories, creates down these stories, creates a general impression which isn't necessarily , that employees general impression which isn't nec corrupt , that employees general impression which isn't nec corrupt on , that employees general impression which isn't nec corrupt on the :hat employees general impression which isn't nec corrupt on the take.mployees general impression which isn't nec corrupt on the take. thoseees are corrupt on the take. those employees are going to be furious with nadhim zahawi furious with the prime minister for this way. how

for handling it this way. how long is the inquiry going to go on? never been a short on? there's never been a short inquiry ethics adviser. so inquiry by an ethics adviser. so what rather have than what would you rather have than you rather rishi you you would rather have? rishi you fire him? yes, but without a proper investigation, you don't need like this need an investigation like this to the facts. he was to look at the facts. he was chance at a time chance the exchequer at a time when was settling his own tax when he was settling his own tax affairs with his own staff , and affairs with his own staff, and he's paid a fine to. affairs with his own staff, and he's paid a fine to . so he's he's paid a fine to. so he's admitted that he didn't settle them properly initially . and is them properly initially. and is he threatened to take a journalist to court for libel? the judge , the misjudgements the judge, the misjudgements shown by the devious harvey are so obvious you should just sack him on the spot and. and come wednesday, i'll come later this week. rishi sunak's regret not firing him quicker in any scandal. get all facts out. that's what nadeem should have done. you may not. all the facts might not save you , but might not save you, but dribbling them out will kill you. yeah. careless deliberate. that's the phrase that's been used. yeah, yeah. it means careless , not criminal. that's careless, not criminal. that's all it means . but it means. it all it means. but it means. it means he didn't the care as the

chancellor to fill his expenses. and it's taxing taxes , says and it's taxing taxes, says graeme says the hmrc has dealt with the highways, paid his penalty and his tax . they're not penalty and his tax. they're not prosecute him prosecuting him and said it was a mistake. prosecute him prosecuting him and said it was a mistake . what and said it was a mistake. what value do we get from this witch hunt? mark says everyone is entitled to some form of privacy. why would any mp different the public service angle doesn't work for ? he says angle doesn't work for? he says this is mainstream media doing stamp to sleaze passes job for them go blimey. stamp to sleaze passes job for them go blimey . bennett says mp them go blimey. bennett says mp shouldn't have any business interest that way. they cannot have a vested interest in governing . i really do that. governing. i really do that. that's fair. that just because you an mp, you literally shouldn't have business interests or any other interests anywhere other than your mp. and if you do believe that, would you be comfortable raising the mp salary then? because if you want to reduce a lot of earnings that incomes that people have,

if you want to attract the top people into public office, you might need to pay them more. if you of all those kind you get rid of all of those kind of additional earning opportunities, would you support that and i'm to that or not? and i'm going to take quick when i come take a quick break. when i come back, have something back, i'll have something something nothing. just something nothing. i was just reading coming reading that that's coming through. lots of you agree with that premise of top that whole premise of that top story. going to move story. but i'm going to move on after i'm wondering, after the break. i'm wondering, do we're heading for do you think we're heading for a two tier health care system and what does that look like to you and it concern you? and why would it concern you? give me your thoughts i'll give me your thoughts and i'll see .

in two. coming up on dan wootton tonight, how can our police forces bring back order to a lawless britain? former new york mayor and lawyer to donald trump, rudy giuliani offers his expertise on tackling crime. plus, as failed mayor of london, sadiq khan snare , is it tory sadiq khan snare, is it tory

celebrities like jim davidson, the legendary comic , is ready the legendary comic, is ready and waiting to hit back . and is and waiting to hit back. and is king charles right to ban prince harry from the buckingham palace balcony if he attends the coronation, join down. 9 pm. to 11 pm. on . gb news. hello there 11 pm. on. gb news. hello there . i'm michelle dewberry, keeping you company till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, i've got john mccann of the political strategist and former adviser to tony and henry hill, tony blair and henry hill, a deputy editor of conservative home. your views , your idea has home. your views, your idea has got people talking. i can tell you that, harry and says i am incensed by the suggestions tonight's suggest that all the people who've paid off the mortgage should pay a bedroom tax and rent it out. how dare he. that's what marian . james he. that's what marian. james says i'm upset. he. that's what marian. james says i'm upset . lutely furious says i'm upset. lutely furious about the guest's suggestion. we should pay spare bedroom tax . should pay spare bedroom tax. james goes on to say he's got a

three bedroom house. his daughter has left, grown up, moved out, but he says he saw none. and this is an awful story. i'm sorry to hear this, james. his son died of cancer when seven years when he was just seven years old. and that bedroom remained exactly same. everything in exactly the same. everything in it same. and he says know it is the same. and he says know very being taxed on very concepts of being taxed on the empty space is an insult. keep your thoughts coming in. on the whole something for nothing. situation that one has divided opinion in terms of benefits . opinion in terms of benefits. peter you reckon the government wants everyone all these benefits. so that they're dependents of the government can't control them? goodness me . keep your thoughts coming in. i want to talk to you, though, if i may, about the nhs , because if i may, about the nhs, because the former prime minister gordon brown has been in the news accusing, the tories of testing the water and it's all about kind of introducing for the nhs. it might be for example, to attend a&e or to attend a doctor's appointment, etc. and it was sajid javid who'd be making reference to this . henry

making reference to this. henry first and foremost, you think these kind of suggestions are indeed tip toeing and testing the water for this two tiered thing? and secondly, would that be a problem in your eyes if we did chargeable things within the nhs? i don't think there's a plan in the department of health of the tory party a two tier of the tory party for a two tier nhs that they're actively working there's, working towards. there's, there's awareness that there's a general awareness that something has to done to something has to be done to reform the care system reform the health care system and the idea of things and basically the idea of things like just trying to like this is it's just trying to put some brakes on demand because that's consistent because that's fairly consistent economic having economic evidence that having something as a zero based price point does all kinds of strange things to the way that people use and given the huge use it. and so given the huge demand the nhs, idea is demand on the nhs, the idea is that trying to that you're basically trying to just little disincentives just create little disincentives so don't use certain so that people don't use certain aspects frivolously, that aspects of it frivolously, that is not really the stepping stone towards a full, a full blown two tier nhs. but i think the thing to remember is that if you actually look at private health care country, care spending in this country, we're in terms of we're already there in terms of a two tier model. you know, a over two tier model. you know, and more people,

and more and more people, british incidental spending on private by british private health care by british people gone up and up and people is has gone up and up and up. more and more people have private health policies. private health care policies. the that's not done the fact that that's not done in the nhs doesn't mean it doesn't happen that the happen. difference is that the money spend on money that people spend on private care instead of private health care instead of being into the nhs and being recycled into the nhs and spent on care for people who need it's going the need it, it's going into the private ecosystem and to shareholders. john what would you have a problem with ? for you have a problem with? for example? i think if you have a doctor's appointment and you miss it fair enough. everyone, you know, things happen if you miss it again and then you miss it, i'd be charging you and i can catch it. that's perfectly reasonable . some people are reasonable. some people are suggesting that this is all about tiptoeing into this two tier and it's a slippery slope when the tories hit the nhs and they trying to privatise it. where it? well, we where are you on it? well, we clearly have a two tier health service . we have a health service. we have a health service. we have a health service. the labour provided up until which was excellent until 2010, which was excellent and waits for 18 weeks. and now you got the country one where

after 12 years of running it down, you're not in a situation where waiting lists at where waiting lists are at a record so, you know, the record high. so, you know, the two tiers, a good one and the labour under tories labour are bad under the tories in terms charging people. in terms of charging people. you can that basically saying can see that basically saying because the government are failing support the nhs, we failing to support the nhs, we should public . it's should charge the public. it's probably that's typical. it putting the problem on its head from sajid javid there are ways to deal with primary care wes streeting and keir starmer suggest that actually more access to pharmacists as a way of diverting demand and actually helping people. and i think this is the issue that . there's no is the issue that. there's no evidence that there are frivolous . frivolous people frivolous. frivolous people turning up at a&e . people are turning up at a&e. people are turning up at a&e. people are turning up at a&e. people are turning up any because they've got poor gp services because gp says that people don't people turn up at gp's because they've got health problems , we've got got health problems, we've got big health problems, unmet health needs. we should actually have in the have more investment in the health service, not more taxation patients . i think

taxation of patients. i think your first come back is a really kind of oversimplistic perspective . you know, the nhs perspective. you know, the nhs is so good under labour and it was so bad under the tories. how would you respond to that ? well, would you respond to that? well, i mean, i suppose as to the first one is looping back to something we spoke about earlier, they're all fundamentally we're in a completely different place as a nafion completely different place as a nation demographically where completely different place as a natwere.emographically where completely different place as a natwere. so graphically where completely different place as a natwere. so whatever.y where completely different place as a natwere. so whatever you where completely different place as a natwere. so whatever you think; we were. so whatever you think of political management of of the political management of the nhs, the task is different. there far more older people there are far more older people there are fewer workers generating revenue. but generating less tax revenue. but i and this the i also think and this may be the first time ever been first time john's ever been accused this, i think he's accused of this, i think he's doing blair disservice doing tony blair a disservice because tony blair in two thousand wrecking thousand and seven wrecking noise model needed noise that the nhs model needed to tried to to change. and he tried to embark on quite an ambitious programme for reform, an he wasn't to through. wasn't able to carry through. but all but that shows that even all that ago wrecking that time ago that was wrecking action amongst of the action amongst some of the conservatives and elements of the party that things the labour party that things needed so idea needed to change. so the idea that there this monolithic that there was this monolithic partisan between a partisan division between like a labour nhs labour conception of the nhs that everybody and

that everybody agrees with and is tory conception of is good and a tory conception of the it's not, it's wrong the nhs. it's not, it's wrong and it also and it does a disservice to two thoughtful people on both sides who have been grappling with this question years. question for coming on 15 years. and will be getting in and people will be getting in touch me now saying about touch with me now saying about the of pfi, for the expansion of pfi, for example, and labour, lots of people whenever we get into this conversation, a lot of people will email me about that . one of will email me about that. one of the things that i always remember about the nhs is my background is i.t. remember about the nhs is my background is lt. and i think about one of, if not the worst example of a public sector i.t. rollout was under the labour party in the nhs that cost the taxpayer, depending on which estimates you use , but around estimates you use, but around between six, ten, £12 billion, the figures that are quoted. so i find it challenging to believe that actually under the nhs sorry, under the labour's watch everything was good. and if labour are so good at managing the nhs , why is welsh nhs in the

the nhs, why is welsh nhs in the mess that it's in? i think people in the uk would be really happy if they got back to being seen and being treated within 18 weeks as it was when the labour party left government in two things. and that's the most that's the most important thing , the quality of service you get. there's been this deterioration, this massive deterioration, this massive deterioration in the and nhs england and that has to be dealt with by the government or a spokesman for nhs wales because nhs wales is under the labour party has been for about two decades and the waiting list, for example, they're aware that nhs england . so if labour's so nhs england. so if labour's so good and these beacon of running health services, why is that one so bad? well, rishi sunak is always praising nhs. well, he offered rishi sunak pretty sunak says, and i don't want to quit. rishi isn't the prime minister. he's our prime minister, mine as well as yours. rishi sunak is always saying the thing about scotland and wales and their health services is the first minister of wales, the first

minister of wales, the first minister of wales, the first minister of scotland. they loved their much as we loved their nhs as much as we loved their nhs as much as we loved the nhs. no there's no the nhs. there's no there's no question. he's always it's really simple. i want to make the welsh nhs deals for the same pressures, post—covid pressures and the same spending pressures because it gets spending . the because it gets spending. the budget comes from the uk budget, it gets proportion, the uk budget. yeah, but wales so the pressures pressure does on its health care marginalised marginalised by labour has been for two decades and it is in a worse situation than nhs england. so if labour is a fantastic look at running health care services , why last time care services, why last time swan the last is the last time we run the health service in england. waiting waiting lists. waiting lists were cut dramatically . you can't answer dramatically. you can't answer my question about wales because it undermines your argument that labour are ones to run labour are the ones to run health services. because i'm proving a practical no, no, no, no , no one's to stand on no, no one's going to stand on on a manifesto proposal that the that the any part of the

devolved administrations take over running any part of the uk health. well for services they give up rights. i'm going to take a quick break. when i come back to talk to you about energy, have you been taking part in, the scheme from the national grid where basically you get a cash incentive, if you like, to reduce your energy consumption during peak times. are you on that scheme ? what do are you on that scheme? what do you to it? is it future? you make to it? is it future? give me a thought and i'll see you .

in two. hi there. welcome back to dewbs & co with me. michelle dewberry keeping you company right till 7:00 tonight. alongside me, i've got john mcternan, political got john mcternan, the political strategist adviser strategist and a former adviser to tony and also known as to tony blair and also known as the man that's upset the nation tonight, suggesting that if you've got a spare bedroom in your privately owned home, you should on. also should be taxed on. it's also alongside us. we've got henry

hill, deputy editor of hill, a deputy editor of conservativehome back. everybody, as i was just alluding to, you're still getting in contact. they're not over it. the reeling john, at the suggestion that if you've got a spare bedroom and you're private and home, you should be taxed on. what was the sentence you just to me earlier, you just said to me earlier, john? if it moves regulator and if still tax, it's he if it sits still tax, it's he was quoting he wasn't using ronald reagan like ronald reagan ronald reagan like a as a hard worker i'd like to be given an opportunity to get private health care, says linda . but not willing to tax on the nhs . you're asking if people can nhs. you're asking if people can afford all these smart tvs, smartphone phones, etc. exercise, right? than anyone can afford a ten p £10 or a gp charge . angela says, michelle, charge. angela says, michelle, what we need is an adult discussion with people about what's the nhs can do and what it can't. the of what it should be responsible for. and how on earth do you get rid of the amount of demand that it has? tell us it's given, it's fallen apart. the nhs how much of its

capacity is used by the private sector queue jumping in preference so the nhs patients thus creating even longer wittingly . let's talk energy wittingly. let's talk energy show with the head of the national grid says that he strongly believes in the idea of paying strongly believes in the idea of paying people cut their electricity usage between five and 6 pm. today you might be taking parts you perhaps did reduce your demand. for example, i know you might not and you washing on your dishwasher or whatever. is this the future, henry? i hope it's only a transitional part of the future. it does make sense if you're moving towards a grid that's based less reliable forms of based on less reliable forms of energy nuclear energy than than coal or nuclear . you try and manage demand, but ultimately , i think we all want ultimately, i think we all want to in a society where we to live in a society where we can with abundant energy and you can with abundant energy and you can to your lights on can afford to put your lights on or heating you like. now, or your heating you like. now, ultimately, involves ultimately, that involves building reliable grid that is building a reliable grid that is ideally well . the best ideally green as well. the best way to do that is nuclear along with stuff like with along with stuff like renewables. unfortunately, we haven't built that infrastructure and therefore infrastructure. and so therefore as push towards net zero, we end

up relying on the renewables sector. will sector. stuff like this will become necessary for demand management. on supply, management. so focus on supply, not necessarily just on demand like you sit, john like this. why do you sit, john i think this is a brilliant idea, a financial idea, is using a financial incentives, market based incentives, market based incentives to actually incentivise people to reduce their usage moments when they can do that , i think is can do that, i think is imaginative. and i think there's going to be a point where we have to choose between building the maximum capacity that's required to be fixed in the uk to generate generate power to meet the maximum potential demands or to find a way of reducing demand like this. there's another way of reducing demand which would be to insulate, to retrofit insulation insulate, to retrofit insulation in lots of our homes which are draughty reduce i think i don't agree with henry that we should never care about how much energy we use should reduce the energy we use should reduce the energy we need to use. we shouldn't build a fleet of power stations which are huge fixed costs if we can if we can replace one large nuclear , one large fossil fuel

nuclear, one large fossil fuel or one large you know, power station, if we can reduce it by just getting built in a million people over the last two days, could be 2 million the next time they do this. i think it's smart to do this to and because if we build too many power stations, everybody pays this way of a small of people. you small number of people. as you get financial, do you think get a financial, do you think this whole kind of cost living situation has made people be more sensible with their usage? even perhaps the less anymore? have a bit of spare cash at the end of the month. do you think it's made people go? well, actually, i don't need that light on or i don't need to do a half full washing load. i can do a wall do think we're a full wall now. do think we're just getting sensible, just getting more sensible, which good thing. which can only be a good thing. i mean. yeah ultimately, whenever, whenever times are tight, you more carefully whenever, whenever times are tight, your more carefully whenever, whenever times are tight, your money ore carefully whenever, whenever times are tight, your moneyore cthat's.y whenever, whenever times are tight, your moneyore cthat's a about your money and that's a very to proceed. very sensible way to proceed. and not saying a and i'm not saying that that's a bad and i don't think this bad thing and i don't think this is a bad policy, but i think that if you're taking the long term view when you're talking

about like power about things like power stations, term stations, that is a long term view. think we want to view. i don't think we want to be stuck roughly be stuck with roughly all current energy usage forever trying of it as trying to make good of it as best can. if look at the best we can. if you look at the history of the 20th century, you know went hand in hand with know what went hand in hand with technology advances and becoming wealthy decade on wealthy a year on, decade on decade, more energy use. decade, it was more energy use. i enough so that i want enough energy so that everyone cheap and everyone has cheap energy and we can technologies of can fuel the technologies of tomorrow, be energy tomorrow, which will be energy technology. in my technology. so my view in my view, mike, is not you're not convinced. what you're saying is if energy companies give people 20 watts, turn off the power bet, that would just not it on the bye by stealth the month's bill. bye by stealth if not just after if you like. so not just after that. after all, says that. after all, john says all of this, her view, is being of this, in her view, is being done to encourage more people to get so that the get smart metres so that the government more control. government can get more control. but point of the but the big talking point of the night, joe mcfadden, is whether or not people should pay tax for that bedrooms. i've not that spare bedrooms. i've not found person found a single solitary person that step with you and that is in step with you and agrees . have got a spare agrees. have you got a spare bedroom, the way? yes, of bedroom, by the way? yes, of course i'm welcome course i have. and i'm welcome to see taxes. well, you've to see taxes. well, if you've got spare, all concerned got a spare, we're all concerned about housing won't

about the housing why won't you lead by example moving to a small house. i use my son. i wonder. i'm going to ponder that in the bedroom is fine my nieces and this all i've and nephews. this is all i've got for. have good night, got time for. have a good night, everybody. i'll see you tomorrow . good evening. i'm alex deakin. this is your latest weather update from the met office, the north south split continues tonight. clear and frosty for many in the south mile and cloudy. further north, though, will be some thick fog patches, however, particularly in the area of high pressure across parts of the south. further north, we've got low pressure's just drifting to the north of scotland , but they are bringing scotland, but they are bringing westerly breezes, a lot of cloud, a bit of drizzle here and there northern scotland . there over northern scotland. some drizzle possible in some light drizzle possible in southern scotland, northwest england, for most dry england, but for most it's dry weather. we've got the clear skies the south. that's where skies in the south. that's where we see things we are going to see things turning foggy . and turning potentially foggy. and certainly frosty once certainly it will be frosty once more, well below freezing in towns and cities and at much lower and rural spots, not quite as cold across the far south—east in east anglia. quite

cloudy . even the odd cloudy skies here. even the odd shower is possible , especially shower is possible, especially close to the coast. it's going to make for a great cold day on. tuesday, around first tuesday, some fog around first thing across parts of england and wales may take a while to clear, but then we should see some spells. of some sunny spells. a lot of cloud across wales , cloud across north wales, northwest england, scotland and northern ireland with some rain trickling highlands. trickling into the highlands. but some brighter skies because aberdeenshire could see highs of 12, 30 worse for the 12, maybe even 30 worse for the south, 45 degrees even with the sunshine where the fog sticks, temperatures may struggle to get much above freezing and a frost will return pretty rapidly tomorrow evening as well. and again , could have some fog again, could have some fog patches thickening up across the south. further north shift, we've got these lines of rain spreading in these a weather fronts, bringing a damp start to wednesday morning across parts southern scotland and that randall trickle its way into northern england parts of wales as well. so a different day here behind those those weather fronts, brightest guys will follow on wednesday across

scotland and northern ireland with just a few showers in the south, it'll be another cold day on wednesday, but signs of temperatures starting to tick up here as we through the rest here as we go through the rest of the week. goodbye .

good evening. accusations of tory sleaze. yes. it's not a great start for rishi sunak's premiership, but is he a leader? is he being decisive? it will debate that we'll find out that over half of british households are now net receivers from the state in this country. the report's authorjoins state in this country. the report's author joins us state in this country. the report's authorjoins us energy report's author joins us energy rationing, effective energy rationing, effective energy rationing starts this week. believe me , you need to find out believe me, you need to find out and learn more about it. and joining me, i'm talking pines. when he comes from a kent cricketing dynasty. he's a former england cricket captain,