could .7 is that a good idea or could it put us on a collision course or even be a war with russia ourselves? and joining me on talking points, long time guardian columnist, talking points, long time guardian columnist , fervent guardian columnist, fervent anti—brexit here. i'll be talking to polly toynbee. but before all of that , let's get before all of that, let's get the news with polly middlehurst . nigel, thank you. good evening to you. a relative of the murder victim, zahra elina , says victim, zahra elina, says probation officers have blood on their hands after a report found her killer was released from prison just days before carrying out the attack . jordan mcswain out the attack. jordan mcswain he was given a life sentence last month after he admitted killing the law graduate . he killing the law graduate. he attacked 35 year old zara in east london as she walked home after a night last june. the findings show mcsweeney should have been treated as a high risk of serious harm offender but was wrongly graded as a medium risk

. zara's aunt, farnaz says more needs to be done to avoid the same thing happening again . our same thing happening again. our streets are not safe. probation and work has to be tight, has to be high quality because the risks, the stake is high. the stake is sa life was taken and probation have blood on their hands. probation have blood on their hands . well in other news today, hands. well in other news today, the chairman of the bbc says he won't stand down from his role over the boris johnson loan row. richard sharpe made the comments as he welcomed a review by the commissioner of public appointments into how he got his job. mr. sharpe's under scrutiny over his links to the former prime minister and his role in talks over . an prime minister and his role in talks over. a n £800,000 loan. talks over. an £800,000 loan. speaking to the bbc, mr. sharpe said he was confident he'd been appointed on merit. said he was confident he'd been appointed on merit . and in appointed on merit. and in scotland, the firefighter who was seriously hurt in a blaze at the jenny's department store in

the jenny's department store in the centre of edinburgh yesterday has been named 38 year old barry martin joined dozens of other crew members to tackle the flames, which broke out on rose street at about 11:30 am. he's still in hospital this evening in a critical condition. the scottish fire and rescue service saying they're still trying to work out how the fire started . poland has formally started. poland has formally requested germany's approval to send up to 14 leopard 2 tanks to ukraine. the polish defence minister says the request comes as the security of the whole of europe is at stake. a german government's spokesperson said they treat the request with utmost urgency and it comes after boris johnson urged other countries to follow the uk's in providing tanks . writing in providing tanks. writing in today's daily mail, providing tanks. writing in today's daily mail , the former today's daily mail, the former prime minister called on other nafions prime minister called on other nations to provide kyiv with the weapons it needs to win the war. and lastly, princess eugenie says , she and her husband, jack says, she and her husband, jack brooksbank , are so excited to be

brooksbank, are so excited to be expecting their second child. a photograph released on instagram today by the princess shows the couple's first child august hugging his mum's pregnant tummy in a statement. the palace said the royal family delighted and august is very much looking forward to being a big brother. those are the latest news stories on gb news. you are up to date on tv, online and dab, plus radio. back now to fast fast. plus radio. back now to fast fast . i can't plus radio. back now to fast fast. i can't do something. good evening. well, today, a major speech by david lammy, the shadow foreign secretary. he delivered it at lunchtime at chatham house. here's a flavour of what he had to say reconnecting britain to europe while remaining outside of the european union will be our top priority for the next labour

foreign office. keir starmer has been clear with labour britain will not rejoin the european single market or the customs union. so that's david lammy. the big message is we will not be rejoining the single market. we will not be rejoining the european union. well, of course , he had to say that the red wall after all, would not want to hear different. but for to hear different. but just for a moment , folks, if you don't a moment, folks, if you don't know , david lammy is he is an know, david lammy is he is an absolutely fanatical . rejoin the absolutely fanatical. rejoin the and he even . believe it or not and he even. believe it or not compared the erg the european research group that backbench group of eurosceptics in the conservative party he even compared them to and when he was challenged on it he said that term passive he wasn't strong enough. but the language is pretty clear. he wants to reconnect with europe. he says

never again must we be isolated in our own content . and he runs in our own content. and he runs through a list of things where we need to work more closely with our european partners. he's going to remove friction to trade , sort the northern irish trade, sort the northern irish problem in foreign policy. he makes it absolutely clear that we would not have an independent foreign policy. we'd do it together as a european union. and that goes for security , and that goes for security, climate change, action and much else besides what he's really talking about is full blown. bnan talking about is full blown. brian brexit in name only , where brian brexit in name only, where we align ourselves as closely as possible to pretty much everything the european union does, and then maybe come a second labour term if that was to happen. the argument is, well, we're obeying all of the rules. we may as well have a say so i'm not for one moment suggesting that a keir starmer landslide means rejoin the european union. we won't. that isn't going to happen. but effectively, it will not be brexit at all. although you

could argue that the conservatives have so far failed to deliver on the aspirations of so many millions who wanted brexit. the perhaps actually the fault lies rather more at their door than it does with david lammy. either way, you tell me what you think is brexit in trouble? farage actually gb news .uk i have to say i rather fear that it is. well, joining me is the conservative member of parliament for chingford and woodford, formerly of the conservative party , iain duncan conservative party, iain duncan smith . and good evening . you smith. and good evening. you heard, of course, what david lammy had to say at chatham house. this really would be brian, though, wouldn't it ? brian, though, wouldn't it? well, i must say, i was slightly taken by his remarks concerning the european research group and his comparison with the is that it's called democracy. david and, you know, you may not like them, but we were elected and

we're entitled to our views. we never asked who was to leave the european union and get on with our own sort. our regulations are make sure we do deals with other countries and make the most of it . and that's really most of it. and that's really where we are the moment. what where we are at the moment. what and i mean, you could say that, but i mean, as you know, passionate brexiteer, i look at the absolute failure to control our borders , be that legal or our borders, be that legal or illegal. immigration. i look at the fact that virtually no business regulation have been simplified and that especially matters for five and a half million men and women running small businesses . million men and women running small businesses. i mean, do you understand why a lot of people are very disappointed with the delivery brexit that we've had from the conservative party? well it's no question we need to get these things done. the problem really the problem has been that . we covid for two been that. we covid for two years and it really busts a huge amount of possibilities us, but

we're getting on with it now . we're getting on with it now. we've got the bill that's just gone through to get rid retained eu law that right, you might have argued, should have happened, it a while to happened, but it took a while to sort that's going sort out. but that's going through, are now beginning through, we are now beginning and report called and i wrote the report called the report, which is the trigger report, which is about regulatory change. now they're now moving on that to make changes. financial make big changes. financial services talking about services is now talking about getting of solvency , too, getting rid of solvency, too, which is a big deal for the city. this like mifid ii, which they'll but we've they'll move to. on but we've also a lot going on now in also got a lot going on now in the regulation side and. that also includes farming and the environment. so there are big changes coming down the tracks now. so yes, i would love it to happened earlier, but i think all things considered, the key thing , we get it done. so the uk thing, we get it done. so the uk is well and truly and properly out we have northern ireland to sort still which is going on but that can only end with one single decision which no part of the united kingdom will ever be under a law from a foreign organisation , in this case organisation, in this case european law . that old american

european law. that old american adage, no taxation without representation and those good for northern ireland's the united states . yeah all good you united states. yeah all good you know if those things happen, i'll be delighted. but it will be seven years in june since we voted . so please forgive my voted. so please forgive my frustration on these issues along with many others . you along with many others. you didn't borders in you didn't mention borders in you know taking back control and there's no doubt that the reason in that new spotted it on the day the reason we got the turnout we got in the referendum a lot of people working class communities voting for reduced numbers into britain. there's been no delivery on that at all and nor do i see any prospect of it. well, there is a bill now about to go through the house will ensure that those who come illegally will not stay in the country. and that's a critical element . government is about to element. government is about to launch that bill. we should get that through reasonably quickly . stop the illegal . we need to stop the illegal boats coming in those coming through illegally at moment. and that's the key . well, don't

that's the key. well, i don't believe a word of it until we leave the job, but we'll have that debate another day. that debate in another day. i must you quickly about must ask you quickly about china. it's a subject that you've spoken out all we've seen. yes. another report that 40 british universities have taken very large sums of money. but this other report that's come out from charles poulson is suggesting that microchips , suggesting that microchips, microchips, you could be in our cars, our washing machines or even our lightbulbs . it is even our lightbulbs. it is westminster . even our lightbulbs. it is westminster. i think you are . westminster. i think you are. but is westminster taking the threat, the potential threat of the chinese spying on every aspect of our lives ? are they aspect of our lives? are they taking it seriously in, that building? well, i think individual mps are certainly taking it seriously. more and more of them are gathering, i said, of an organisation called interpol alliance on china. we now 30 countries with now have 30 countries with co—chairs, parliament coaches and all 30 from japan. the united states. no question at all that we are taking that seriously . governments, i'm seriously. governments, i'm afraid, across the west have

been slow to respond to what is essentially a very direct threat to the way we live our lives by china. and it critically, of course, it's a matter of pushing them. the present government still isn't quite over the line with this so we get a government policy which doesn't quite meet the ask, but we really need to recognise that they are capable of spying on us. they are doing it regularly . they have planted it regularly. they have planted the money into lots of universe this, made them very dependent on, you know, huawei is set up operations in cambridge . i operations in cambridge. i wonder why and they're banned from doing the telecoms stuff so huge a real threat. and if russia succeeds in holding on to ukraine, i tell you that immediately emboldens china to a go at taiwan. and so this thing is very important, is a very serious threat to us. all governments recognise it where they should do. and a final thought , just picking up on

thought, just picking up on ukraine. boris johnson has been in ukraine for the last couple of days. today for the first time, explicit italy calling for ukraine to join nato's. so something that could put us as a country on direct collision with russia. is he right to suggest ukraine should join nato ? i ukraine should join nato? i don't think it's going to happen for some time to come and i think ukraine has to settle. it needs to be stable. it's going to an awful lot of money is going to have to be spent to try and up. some say well over and get up. some say well over $1,000,000,000,000 will need to be get the be spent to get the infrastructure back up as and when war is over, i think when this war is over, i think the thing right now not the key thing right now is not that it that nato that they joined it that nato because would add an because that would add an element to this. so i think the key thing is that make sure key thing is that we make sure they have all the military equipment be able to equipment it takes to be able to fight war. they're quite fight this war. they're quite capable, believe, it, capable, i believe, winning it, having myself having been out there myself before don't fully before christmas, i don't fully agree need it agree that you need to do it now, but i do think in due course that will probably. but the thing let's get the key thing let's get the tanks them. and i hear the

tanks to them. and i hear the good news tonight is that germany's finally relented and agreed now to let tanks agreed now to let the tanks go, which news. they need which is good news. they need those. need artillery. those. they need long artillery. and out there, they and when i was out there, they said munitions said we need munitions dramatically our dramatically and support for our soldiers in hospitals and all of these things . we should back these things. we should back them. their war is war in them. their war is our war in any way , but they are going to any way, but they are going to fight we to make sure fight it. we need to make sure they right equipment to they have the right equipment to beat russians and to beat the russians and to actually end this ghastly . and actually end this ghastly. and dr. smith, thank you for joining me here on gb news. and that's very much the view the very much the view everywhere is that send lots and lots of weapons to ukraine. can russia it ukraine. they can russia and it will all over fairly sure will all be over fairly sure they have to say i don't believe a word of it in moment, we're going to novara media on to going to get novara media on to get center—left on all get a rather center—left on all of questions i just to end of those questions i just to end duncan—smith brexit in duncan—smith is brexit in trouble how big a threat is china . i saw this nato's china. i saw this nato's decision but this idea of boris johnson's . i decision but this idea of boris johnson's. i think it's complete utter madness .

so gb news viewers and listeners , do you think brexit could be in trouble? well, john says it's going to be overturned very soon. we need you back. leading the fight. well, there we are, john.i the fight. well, there we are, john. i haven't thrown the armour away. i promise. angela says yes . labour are ready to says yes. labour are ready to sell all the soul of the uk back to the eu, while david lammy certainly would be . sam says yes certainly would be. sam says yes . it turns out brexiteers were obviously their pay masters enriched themselves on the rest of us. i don't know who these paymasters were, i can assure i didn't have any paymasters . paymasters were, i can assure i didn't have any paymasters. i don't believe i said anything that untrue . maybe one or two of that untrue. maybe one or two of the others did. but then name me an election where people don't perhaps overexaggerate their case side, ryan says it has been

since the 23rd of june 2016. the state simply cannot accept that . we, the public, dared to question their authority . i question their authority. i agree with you. 100. i think the truth of it is the conservative party were in government . they party were in government. they they inherited a brexit vote. they made an up horlicks of it under theresa may. they were kicked in 2019. but i don't even with the 80 seat majority they ever collectively as a cabinet believed in it. now ever collectively as a cabinet believed in it . now novara ever collectively as a cabinet believed in it. now novara media is on the left of the political spectrum. aron boustani was , one spectrum. aron boustani was, one of its founders. so we've heard iain duncan smith, who firmly in the centre right of british policy you've heard what david lammy had to say. it pretty much was code, wasn't it , for keeping was code, wasn't it, for keeping us or making us more closely augned us or making us more closely aligned to the eu than we are today. well was very clever. it was very astute politics. it

does take a little bit of reading between the lines it came across as professional slack. it fell a bit, you know , slack. it fell a bit, you know, back to the future of sort of blair and a lot of the language multilateralism and whatnot. isn't what starmer wants isn't that what starmer wants the to be? yeah, the labour party to be? yeah, yeah. think is yeah. and i think there is a subtext there, which you're right to highlight, which is about broadly aligning ourselves with european union. but with the european union. but like , touching that like i say, not touching that political potato of eu membership . super interesting. membership. super interesting. i mean we could talk about, i suppose the, the foreign policy choices ever made outside the eu. i think lots of people on the right and the centre and towards the centre left they bash johnson but they don't passion for his foreign policy choices. so far, so it's interesting. what is it? i mean , know am one of the most , know i am one of the most frustrated brexiteers in the country because they haven't delivered some of the things i wanted, you know, the orcas deal with australia taking the on ukraine. these are all things we couldn't have done or wouldn't have done as full eu members. well, i mean talks about the orca still. they to build on it

they want to stay in the pacific, they want to align with the eu they want to reform the security council. there's a lot that call ambitious, but you that you call ambitious, but you can't you can't. no, can't do it all. you can't. no, it's very it's very ambitious. but the labour party itself, i mean, it fought last mean, it fought the last election. your second election. what are your second referendum? they're referendum? yes i mean, they're basically us at heart. referendum? yes i mean, they're basically us at heart . well, basically us at heart. well, they are, yeah. i mean , people they are, yeah. i mean, people like david lammy, keir starmer , like david lammy, keir starmer, thatis like david lammy, keir starmer, that is utterly central to who they are as as politicians, as people, as voters , you know, people, as voters, you know, even if they weren't in politics, those are the kinds people they would be. but i think nigel and this is probably something you've observed and been surprised in the last been surprised by in the last few. i certainly have. keir starmer ruthless is ruthless. this was a chap on the pro—eu second referendum demonstration in 2019. their standard bearer, their tribune , and now he's their tribune, and now he's saying to the red wall, i will never rejoin the eu. and like you said earlier, i believe, i don't think labour plans to take britain back into the european union's . so that ruthlessness

union's. so that ruthlessness has surprised me and i think it's pretty surprised a lot of people on the right too, because they saw keir starmer is very different kind of but he's kicked i mean he's basically kicked i mean he's basically kicked corbyn out of the party. oh he's been he has utterly ruthless been, he's been ruthless he's been, he's been you he could teach you know, he could teach machiavelli a thing or two i what of labour government what kind of labour government would it be. i mean they're talking about putting vat on private , getting rid private school fees, getting rid of non non—dom . they're going to of non non—dom. they're going to be even higher taxes on the conservatives aren't they? but those things just those two things you just mentioned, might not like mentioned, you might not like them. of viewers might them. some of your viewers might not them, but are not like them, but they are quite popular they're quite quite popular and they're quite they're small. they're not they're small. they're not they're huge. don't they're not huge. they don't affect huge. well, the size of 7% the population send their 7% of the population send their kids private it's kids to private school. it's only income the only basic income tax. but the thing nigel, with with the thing is, nigel, with with the state public service in this state of public service in this all the problems we have ambulance waiting times any waiting getting doctor's waiting times getting a doctor's appointment etc. my suspicion is just to just cover the basics. now we're going to have to have taxes increased to a level that

really jeremy corbyn jumped on. we're talking about for 2019. if you want all of these nice things, like they were 15 years ago. and that isn't the argument labour's making right now, it's the that talking about the public that talking about these little tiny things and fundamental they really fundamental they don't really impact closer to impact many people. so closer to the european union, he made it very clear that our foreign policy aligned to the policy will be aligned to the eu. talked about china eu. he talked about china briefly in the speech. iain duncan smith has been one of the people in parliament leading charge, so we should be very scared. china some call him paranoid . i don't know where paranoid. i don't know where labour stand on this. do you? i don't. i mean , a very dynamic don't. i mean, a very dynamic situation this was a big intervention today . the intervention today. the relationship between the universities and whatnot. a few points, though. british universities are really dependent upon chinese students . there's no two ways about that. without them, lot of them can't keep heads above can't keep their heads above water. the for that is water. the reason for that is that the case, smith and his that in the case, smith and his pals conservative party pals in the conservative party increased fees 300% in increased tuition fees 300% in 2010, but also cut government's to universities. so they depend

chinese students well. so when there were no tuition fees until labour brought them in quite it was mr. blair that brought on a massively bit numbers going to university . i find it strange to university. i find it strange to say that. well you know universities are dependent upon funding chinese institutions or chinese well, chinese students. true. well, you enabled situation which i find rather, rather surprising , find rather, rather surprising, rather counterintuitive . rather counterintuitive. labour's message on china, i'm sure we'll hear something like i say the speech today was impressive slick professional they didn't drill into too many details on anything including china . i'm sure that will change china. i'm sure that will change nato traditionally many on the left been suspicious of nato . i left been suspicious of nato. i haven't been suspicious of nato , but nato expansion was that i was always very concerned about the johnson suggestion and this is going to get traction. this isn't to go away. i mean, and duncan smith saying, yes, ultimately he thought nato should, you know include ukraine? where does the left go on this stuff? i don't i think look, jeremy corbyn was leader

of the labour party in 2019 and labour didn't have in its manifesto its withdrawal britain for all nato or to renounce nuclear weapons . we know jeremy nuclear weapons. we know jeremy corbyn's personal feelings on this, but that wasn't the labour party's position under under his leadership . i think a lot of the leadership. i think a lot of the criticism and scepticism towards knights over the last 20 years has justified. nato has been justified. nato shouldn't have gone to libya, it shouldn't have gone to libya, it shouldn't to shouldn't have gone to afghanistan. in the afghanistan. and we're in the strange now that if strange moment right now that if you those things over the you said those things over the last years, opponents last years, your opponents opposing, very opposing, you know, this is very different. this is very difficult it's very difficult for me. it's very difficult for me. it's very difficult i agree with arron . i difficult. i agree with arron. i do agree with you . yeah. and as do agree with you. yeah. and as soon as you say that you are supportive of mr. and you supportive of mr. and you support the invasion and it's all baloney on lammy, you talked about what a slick performance it was . i and yet this is a man it was. i and yet this is a man who called the original. he's not very grown up really, is he? i find that david lammy a really interesting character because he's very polished , good media he's very polished, good media perform. you know, he was on lbc , he is very charismatic. but

then he he makes these occasional like that, for instance, which is just insensitive and a stupid, frankly and he is one of these sort of i don't want to call him a politician. he's he's not he was he was a lawyer. and, you know, you've studied at harvard and very talented, and whatnot. he's very talented, man. is interesting. he man. but it is interesting. he makes these strange oversteps at times i he regrets times and i think he regrets that. obviously silly thing that. it's obviously silly thing to elected. was to say for elected. it was a very silly thing to say about it. could on its foreign it. could be on its foreign sector so yeah, there sector final. so yeah, there are still banana ahead for still banana skins ahead for keir starmer and one of them i suspect women's rights and suspect is women's rights and the transition. mean, do the transition. i mean, what do you see? know, the member of you see? you know, the member of labour, you see? you know, the member of labour , member of parliament in labour, member of parliament in the elected labour member of parliament, canterbury being shouted down by her own side for danng shouted down by her own side for daring to talk about women's rights. when keir starmer can't even define what a woman these are problems are. they well, the one thing look, i'm not being ianed one thing look, i'm not being invited on here as a supporter. keir starmer. invited on here as a supporter. keir starmer . but you've been keir starmer. but you've been invited. oh, yeah , because i've

invited. oh, yeah, because i've had a more centre right perspective . no, no, no. i just perspective. no, no, no. i just was, i was close. i guess i saw that kind about keir starmer so i don't want you're audience to think that obviously it's not my supports support wouldn't supports support that wouldn't accurate has in this accurate storm has set in this whole around gender whole discussion around gender recognition act and gender recognition certificates and so on take heat out of it. on to take the heat out of it. and i think that's a really important point to make. and i think this with any civil think with this with any civil liberties issue, you're going to have disagreements you're have disagreements and you're going disputes . and some going to have disputes. and some of can get out in of that can get ironed out in the and some cop right ? the detail. and some cop right? some people will be persuaded and and some and some won't and some compromises be reached. compromises will be reached. well that a bit well but all of that needs a bit of and tranquillity and of calm and tranquillity and well, there wasn't much that. well, there wasn't much of that. hopefully a bit more. hopefully we'll see a bit more. rosie speaking rosie duffield was speaking in the week. the house commons last week. aaron, for coming in aaron, thank you for coming in and joining me. there you are. i've tried to give you a centre right centre perspective right at centre left perspective on with a bit of my on today's news with a bit of my own think the tories own opinion. i think the tories have a complete mess of have had a complete mess of brexit. yes and can talk about all regulatory going all the regulatory going through. borders. through. but it's the borders. that's they've completely that's where they've completely and that and utterly failed. and that opens door for labour to

opens up the door for labour to take us much, much closer. is brexit in trouble? well we're not rejoin european not going to rejoin the european union, the kind of union, but it's the kind of brexit us believed in brexit many of us believed in trouble. bet your life. trouble. yep, you bet your life. in moment, we're going dig in a moment, we're going dig deeper into that strategic strategy nato's and the eu strategy of nato's and the eu moving further eastwards .

i'm going to come back to nato. i'm going to come back to nato. i think what johnson has said is important and fascinating that ian duncan—smith supports it and i'll honest with you, i've been at odds with almost the entirety of the establishment on this for many, many years in 14 the democratically elected leader of ukraine was brought by the orange revolution . people orange revolution. people standing in the in square in kyiv waving european union flags. it was clear we to expand eastwards, not just the eu. but

nato as well i felt that was a strategic mistake. i said in the parliamentary chamber in 2014 there would be a war. ukraine they hated me for it then. they hate me for it now. that's how i about this. but i'm joined by communications consultant special project partners, former naval officer james gater. james, you know , we've as james, you know, we've as a country believed in since the late 1940s. right. i with very good reason it's been a pretty remark able organisation but circumstances change you know my position on this very well and you may well disagree with i don't. but here's the point at a moment where we've got a war going on in ukraine, the frankly, looks a bit like 1917 with trenches , artillery with trenches, artillery bombardments , you know, infantry bombardments, you know, infantry approaches over open ground . the approaches over open ground. the prospect of a spring offensive, i think coming from the

russians. and that's why the ukrainians want tanks and. i understand it from their point of view, but with putin, with the fact he's dead to talk about nuclear weapons , it make sense nuclear weapons, it make sense for a former forensic factory and a former prime minister i mean, strategically, does it make sense us at this moment to talk about ukraine joining nato 7 talk about ukraine joining nato ? well, nigella i understand your position but fundamentally it's arguable that this war could only ever have started as it fell between the grey zone, if you wish, between ukraine being a member of nato and not a member of nato , i think, and member of nato, i think, and i would argue that boris johnson thinks that this is about changing public perceptions. it's not about cold, hard facts about joining. let's face it, joining nato is going to be an extended process. it's going to an awfully long time, but it's about the perception. it's about

our position as a nation state and we think to be acceptable in the future as your earlier guests pointed out, the fact is, is that joining now is inconceivable . i don't believe inconceivable. i don't believe that's what boris johnson said. joining now would mean . yes, you joining now would mean. yes, you would be right. yeah i don't think that's actually what's being suggested. okay. but i mean , my reason, one of my main mean, my reason, one of my main reasons for not wanting eastward expansion was i felt it would give putin a cause as badly he could say to the russian people, look, they're surrounding us. they're threatening us to give him a reason why they would back him a reason why they would back him in a military endeavour such as this . that was the point that as this. that was the point that i was making . surely, even if i was making. surely, even if the suggestion that this membership's the road, i mean , membership's the road, i mean, isn't this a dangerous time ? isn't this a dangerous time? nigel nato is a defensive organisation and what better was what better form of defence than to protect ourselves from attack 7 to protect ourselves from attack ? fact of the matter is that if ukraine had been on a closer

path to joining nato putin would very likely have thought twice about about his invasion. now and really, is this about giving putin? of course , his fellow? putin? of course, his fellow? the fact is, is that we need to get behind the ukrainians as much as possible, not only protect them to protect ourselves. is this war winnable for ukraine with enough resources as yes. in the last half hour, it's been reported by der spiegel that tanks are going to be sent a letter to is are going to be sent another company that's 28 tanks in total for the challenge. it is they knew all that the tanks they can get and they need them to protect the rest of europe. okay james gaita, thank you very much indeed. very clear opinion there. got my opinion there. i've got my opinion on this what ferocious this quake. what ferocious moment it was a special question was raised in parliament today. it's about the fact that 200 so—called children have gone missing from asylum hotels, 200 youngsters that across the engush youngsters that across the english channel. well, of course

we had a 14 year old apparently who turned out to be 20, who murdered somebody in bournemouth . i don't think these are children being abducted from these hotels. i think you'll find the vast majority, the vast majority actually are adult . we majority actually are adult. we know most are albanian. they'll be absconding and joining criminal gangs. that is what is happening with so many people that cross channel. although a lot of people would rather we didn't talk about it now. i'm going to have a debate in a moment with polly toynbee . of moment with polly toynbee. of course, she's been writing the guardian for years. unlike many journalists, though, she duponts stand for parliament. she's a fervent anti brexiteer . we're fervent anti brexiteer. we're going to have a debate over a dnnk.

with . it's that time of the day

with. it's that time of the day . the gb news tavern is open . . the gb news tavern is open. it's talking about that. i'm joined by polly. toby, polly, welcome to the program . now i've welcome to the program. now i've done a bit of time in politics and a of time in journalism . and and a of time in journalism. and quite often , you know, i get quite often, you know, i get i've been quite angry over the years with the press pack questions. they've asked things written. i've often said hey, it's all right for you . you can it's all right for you. you can stay out of the back of the room, chat, beer bottles. you've never actually had a go but you did have a go and you know, for those that have forgotten or went around at the time , you went around at the time, you know, the limehouse declaration , the sdp, the three general election, you were fully signed up for this. when you a lot of people have forgotten that long ago, it's a footnote in history. i'm afraid it didn't get very far at the time . that really far at the time. that really looked like a moment when the esdp might breakthrough break the mould as you've often talked about. on the one hand you had

such a at the bottom of a depression in 81 unemployment, particularly youth unemployment through the roof , huge cuts, through the roof, huge cuts, incredibly unpopular. she was the most unpopular prime. is that ever been at that point in 1981, when the esdp was full? on the other hand, you had , michael the other hand, you had, michael foot, who was out of nato, out of europe , you would have liked of europe, you would have liked that aspect of him nationalising everything. it was also on the electable. and so seemed like the moment for a decent social democratic party. i believe the country essentially social democrat . some think it was led democrat. some think it was led by some big figures, wasn't it? i mean i mean, at one point it hit over 50% in the polls when shirley won her by—election it did fantastic . well, but then , did fantastic. well, but then, you know, the falklands war , you know, the falklands war, that popularity rose enormously , but mostly as you know very well, it was the electoral system that brokers used to. it

you stood i stood for lewisham . you stood i stood for lewisham. and it's very hard . i mean, and it's very hard. i mean, looking even when you don't win, let alone if you become an nurturing constituency for several years before in a run up to election you have to get to know every street, every business, every school . it's business, every school. it's really, really hard work , let really, really hard work, let alone those politicians who are actually, you know, running the country at westminster and then looking after constituency as well . and i think you're right, well. and i think you're right, people do underestimate it. i think being a journalist a cushy life, i think it's a doddle. that's good. i'm pleased you said that, you know, i a lot of politicians are wrong on balance, but mostly . not mostly. balance, but mostly. not mostly. i think they're in it. balance, but mostly. not mostly. i think they're in it . they i think they're in it. they believe in something. and something that they think they can make the better. and i remind myself and i remind other of the journalists that we sit there in our crow's nest, you know, shooting down politicians . they come and go. we stayed

there for been there a hell of a long time . they come and go. we long time. they come and go. we there forever pontificating them and a measure of humility from time to time is necessary. and a measure of humility from time to time is necessary . you time to time is necessary. you know, we need good people to go into politics. do depends on it and we should be careful to allow too much cynicism , allow too much cynicism, frankly, at the moment, given the appalling things that happenedin the appalling things that happened in the last few years, it's quite difficult to keep one's belief in politics going because we've had such appalling governance . is the system part governance. is the system part of that ? you know, when we you of that? you know, when we you know, you set the sdp, we're a footnote in history, but a very interesting if you actually look at the number votes, you know, the popular vote that the sdp got compared to the labour party , they really weren't very far behind. we were less than 2% behind. oh, we were less than 2% behind. oh, we were less than 2% behind. yeah. if we had behind. yeah. and if we had overtake even though the overtake them, even though the system us very system would have given us very little because it's such little success because it's such an system without an unjust system without proportional representation and that psychologically that would have psychologically changed game. but we changed the whole game. but we didn't there the didn't reach there for the reason that understand the

voting system and know that in the end, yeah, you to hold your nose vote against party you nose and vote against party you hate most . so whenever i get it hate most. so whenever i get it it's such a foot. they were more of one or the other than they were for us. and i think we would have won. we have won under any proportional. so i think a lot of voting actually who we think the least worst is and why we finished up. but in way you did win because you got tony blair. well have long arguments about this whether we were people in labour who didn't leave people who nearly left like denis healey, a number of people who are on the brink of joining the sdp. and at the last moment they said, we've looked across europe , seen what across europe, seen what happened with the left split . so happened with the left split. so it was a disaster. who say, oh, well, you know, we'll out thatcher to win for longer because we'd helped split the left . were who said left. there were others who said no. it was a huge hugely influential on labour . it got influential on labour. it got kinnock in the and kinnock who himself changed while he was

leader and pulled the party back.i leader and pulled the party back. i think it sense. i think it did and that was us or whether it would have happened anyway, i don't know. i like think that we contributed, but it's one of those what if said history and the electoral system. you said a pay off and passionately and i thought about it quite often . yes. electoral it quite often. yes. electoral reforms are to make votes matter. i belong to all of these things. it's very, very difficult. fight people regard it as abstract. but i think now we have so much tactical voting. people have tweaked, they understand the system, the opinion polls , the opinion polls opinion polls, the opinion polls are shifting. they really are. so you had to go . you were part so you had to go. you were part of it. and that's important journalism. you've been writing opinion columns for a very, very long time. you've never been particularly of giving your opinion about the role foul play. or do you this book or brexit it or whatever it may be, you and i, we disagree on quite a lot, but that's fine in a

civilised society should be allowed to do that . but tell me allowed to do that. but tell me this with the advent of the internet , twitter, facebook , all internet, twitter, facebook, all these different things , how these different things, how influential are newspapers ? how influential are newspapers? how influential are newspapers? how influential are newspapers? how influential are newspaper columnists? these days compared to when you started ? well, i to when you started? well, i think surprisingly at the beginning, we thought we've had it. you know, newspapers will be gonein it. you know, newspapers will be gone in a couple of years. everything will be new sites , everything will be new sites, news sites on the on the web will take over . what's been will take over. what's been extraordinary is the extent to which the brands , newspapers are which the brands, newspapers are still incredibly powerful. i mean, the guardian is far more powerful than it used to be. we were, you know, a small dead trees newspaper. and now we are right across the globe. we're probably the second most influential or liberal news source that people around the world tend to in america, australia where we have big offices in both , it's been

offices in both, it's been phenomenal. it's interesting isn't it? because i see this in america particularly that engush america particularly that english titles online do incredibly well somehow whatever our own criticisms of fleet street as we used to know it we are somehow this industry is respected around the world, isn't it ? well, some more than isn't it? well, some more than others. i'm not sure that. i'm not sure that the sun is all that respected or even the daily mail. i'm afraid . oh, i said no mail. i'm afraid. oh, i said no , “0, mail. i'm afraid. oh, i said no , no, no, no, no . i mean, if you , no, no, no, no. i mean, if you want to go and meet trumpists got barricades that in america's huge absolutely huge well it's huge absolutely huge well it's huge amongst the sort of trump type faction that's true for the trump the more extreme this is where it all goes wrong . you say where it all goes wrong. you say extreme actually . about 43% of extreme actually. about 43% of the country think he's a hero. you can't write them all off as being extreme. i mean, that's a little bit like saying after the referendum that, you know, brexit is are all terrible

knuckle draggers. they're not, are think it's different are they? i think it's different brexit was about what you brexit was about what is you i think this the people followed trump i really think that's deeply alarming. i think , you deeply alarming. i think, you know, thoroughly dangerous and disreputable man , that's disreputable man, that's a different thing. i mean, brexit i think, you know people were promised by people like you, 350 million a week for the nhs, for more, whereas that they've got far more nonsense . oh, far more nonsense. oh, absolutely. call them. not that . i mean, nhs spending has increased more than that, but nhs spending is still overall, far less proportionately than it's been the and why the nhs is on its knees. it's actually years of actually down from 12% of our gdp is now going to increase. it's not as much as france, germany and more now. actually, it's not. i'm going to argue that with you because they're fine points. want to put they're fine points. want to put the point talking points. the point about talking points. it's picture stuff the point about talking points. itso picture stuff the point about talking points. itso the picture stuff the point about talking points. itso the title picture stuff the point about talking points. itso the title still picture stuff the point about talking points. itso the title still matter stuff the point about talking points. itso the title still matter .tuff . so the title still matter. people read this stuff online that by many copies of the news

of the hard newspaper, but then again, when you look at the newspaper i mean, it's actually you know i've got that he's the guardian today's you know i mean we're paying that three quid for a newspaper he's got lot of well it's not it's not know people people want will pay people who really want will pay for and it's never going be a for it and it's never going be a mass circulation in the that it used to be but some people still really want the nice feel of a newspaper, but essentially the business is now online for all newspapers the computer is newspapers and the computer is online. you do this job, you write your columns , you say what write your columns, you say what you think you earn money from doing . is it a you think you earn money from doing. is it a job or you think you earn money from doing . is it a job or a you think you earn money from doing. is it a job or a passion? it's both really lucky. it's not very often that people have jobs that are passions. it's a wonderful job. but no, i feel . a wonderful job. but no, i feel. a passionate love for the guardian , its ethos, its world history. and i feel a sense of belonging there and identity . and what's there and identity. and what's great is when you go out and you to people and it talks story festivals and things , i write

festivals and things, i write books , people assemble who were books, people assemble who were guardian readers and they say , guardian readers and they say, we're the only guardian readers in the village. it's so rarefied social group, isn't it? it's very it's very middle class and very it's very middle class and very upper middle class. very it's very middle class and very upper middle class . and i very upper middle class. and i think if i were about to win the election and this did you get away? actually, you were going to be the minority. and we are to be the minority. and we are to be the majority of the vote. the truth is, the next election is going to be fought between forms social democracy. i forms of social democracy. i mean, different . mean, not much different. hardly. well, one is we know what we disagree , but i don't what we disagree, but i don't dislike here. i believe you dislike here. i believe you dislike me and we know we can have a civil debate about things, because what i see that fascinates me and you one of fascinates me and you are one of the patrons of right to die and is the issues. i was is one of the issues. i was almost 21 years mep. i get almost 21 years an mep. i get emails , letters about right to emails, letters about right to die . i could never make my emails, letters about right to die. i could never make my mind up because i saw what was happening. the netherlands. i've seen what's happened in canada . seen what's happened in canada. i worry that whilst of course

we'd like a civilised end for people having a dreadful last few weeks or months that . it's few weeks or months that. it's so open to abuse that your firmly of this view and suddenly this view. i mean every every piece of legislation has possible downside, possible slippery slopes, but you know, the latest reports are 17 people a day are dying several months in absolute agony, which can't but even the best palliative can't cure . and i've watched my can't cure. and i've watched my mother of cancer she had wonderful care no complaint about it at all. but, you know, morphine doesn't for everybody. and it is agony and terrible . and it is agony and terrible. also awful things happen mean, you know, cancer has burst out of people's abdomen and they stink and their families can hardly come close to them and they cry out to die . and the they cry out to die. and the families, you know, the doctors can't, particularly since harold , they used to be able to give women, was no longer. now, that

is real torment and horror. now it is possible. it is possible that even if you have a judge and two doctors and somebody and, you know, in sound mind saying they want to die and explaining that what's in a while, once a while, there might be some mistake. but that's nothing like . what goes on now nothing like. what goes on now when you talk to nurses, you deal with the dying. you know what they witness every day. there's awful lot of, you know, obituary notices say died peacefully in his sleep. and you 90, peacefully in his sleep. and you go, i wonder , polly, you believe go, i wonder, polly, you believe that with great passion. i worried. i worry that it could be abused for the jury's be abused for me the jury's still out. you are still out. but you are a campaigning journalist, and i thank you for coming on talking points . thank you . okay, it's points. thank you. okay, it's time for and i'm going to keep polly . it's time to barrage the polly. it's time to barrage the barrage . got your questions. i barrage. got your questions. i never know what they're going to be. mick asks, is you less to khan's poll tax moment and? will

it see him topple? well, it won't see him top immediately, but by golly, has he got this wrong ? i live right out on the wrong? i live right out on the nonh wrong? i live right out on the north downs . i wrong? i live right out on the north downs. i mean, right out of the north down's single track roads . you know, you can never roads. you know, you can never tell whether you're actually in kent or greater london because the boundaries changed a few years ago. and the only people who pay you less are the who will pay you less are the older poorer people. that older and poorer people. that can't right. kind of . well, can't be right. kind of. well, i'm favour because in the i'm all in favour because in the end, end we have to have end, in the end we have to have clean and this isn't we've clean air. and this isn't we've got great clean air and out of london. well you know, there's always going difficulty of always going to be difficulty of any know the any border you but you know the thing i think in the end the and particularly know the particularly you know the children with asthma were dying of particulates in the air. i think it's necessary . i of particulates in the air. i think it's necessary. i think responsible politician does what's right even when it's not popular with everyone. well, it's pretty unpopular one out in london that is absolutely for certain. although you know, the clean air act and various things

in london is much better than it was in the 1950s. it was a childhood bronchitis before the clean and i was ill lot clean air act, and i was ill lot of the time. the cleaner the were pea soup. so you couldn't you started to go to school. you couldn't see number and the bus and. it all changed overnight with the clean air. there's no doubt about you know , we doubt about it. you know, we want in cleaner , want to live in a cleaner, better environment, question better environment, no question about quite while asks, about quite while nicola asks, do you think the conservative party no longer cares whether it gets power or not at gets back into power or not at the next election? i think they've pretty much given up most think they know most of them. i think they know they're utterly they're completely, utterly doomed. down the doomed. let's split down the middle. they all hate each nearly all the same school, all at the same oxford college and dip same degree. and they're basically pretty hopeless and they'll be replaced by another lot dissemble. i'm lot who are dissemble. i'm finished. tomorrow lot who are dissemble. i'm finish with. tomorrow lot who are dissemble. i'm finishwith. you tomorrow lot who are dissemble. i'm finish with. you at tomorrow lot who are dissemble. i'm finish with. you at 7:00. rrow lot who are dissemble. i'm finish with. you at 7:00. now night with. you at 7:00. now it's laurence fox . good it's over to laurence fox. good evening. thank you, nigel. tonight we will be discussing non—binary jesuses. is it the end of the world as we know it

and migrant children missing . and migrant children missing. hello a great act you host and welcome to our latest broadcast from the met office. still the risk of some fog and freezing fog patches particularly across southern parts of england. for the next hours, we will see the next 24 hours, we will see rain pushing and we can rain pushing south and we can see nice day on the see that nice day on the pressure . cold pushes pressure. a cold front pushes southwards the uk but high pressure always nearby, meaning those will be on those weather fronts will be on the weak side. if you have staying many, as we end staying dry for many, as we end the but weather the week. but weather fronts always nearby the always nearby eye towards the north through evening time frost and reform across central and fog reform across central and fog reform across central and southern parts of england. elsewhere generally quite cloudy, particularly as we head into the early hours. some rain and drizzle in across the north and drizzle in across the north and the west here. mild temperatures holding up minus five six. again across five or minus six. again across central southern england as we head towards wednesday morning . head towards wednesday morning. cloudy, foggy starts across the south the fog patches dense in places, band of rain pushing south across northern parts of the uk light and patchy generally behind it though

turning brighter into afternoon across scotland and northern ireland, there will be some showers across northern scotland. two these scotland. one or two of these heavy, and cold. the heavy, cloudy and cold. the south of england, five or six degrees at best, 7 to 9 across the north of the uk, feeling a little better than it has over the last couple of here the last couple of days here through evening, that through wednesday evening, that cloud of pushes and clears cloud of rain pushes and clears south of england. then a clear to come, particularly across central areas, a few showers around coastal parts in that northerly breeze, but under the clearer skies it allow temperatures to dip away so gently falling 2 to 5 celsius in towns and cities, a little below in the countryside. but that enough of a breeze generally to keep it from frost and fog for free many into thursday , we'll free many into thursday, we'll see a bit of a west split developing cloudy skies towards the east. but there will be some brighter spells here, though. one or two showers are possible parts of the sunshine across the west and broken in places. give me northerly breeze over me a light northerly breeze over the few days. pressure the next few days. high pressure holds keeps it largely dry. holds on, keeps it largely dry. weak fronts try to move

weak weather fronts try to move in the north in from the north and temperatures average .

you with gb news it's 11:00. in you with gb news it's11:00. in a moment, a headline is but first let's catch up on the latest news headlines. and tonight has been confirmed that british aid workers andrew bagshaw , christopher perry, who bagshaw, christopher perry, who had gone missing in ukraine, were killed trying to help civilians flee, shelling the parry family released a statement saying it is with sadness. we have to announce that beloved krissy has been killed along with his colleague andrew bagshaw . while attempting andrew bagshaw. while attempting a humanitarian evacuation from soledar in eastern ukraine the pair had been attempting to rescue an elderly woman in an area of intense military action when their car was hit by an

artillery shell. they were last