gb news. hello good afternoon and welcome to gb news tv online and on digital radio. i'm nana akua now for the next 2 hours, me and my panel will be taking on some of the big topics . hitting the the big topics. hitting the headunes the big topics. hitting the headlines right now. this show is all about opinion. headlines right now. this show is all about opinion . it's mine, is all about opinion. it's mine, it's and of course it's it's us. and of course it's yours. be debating. yours. we'll be debating. discussing at times will discussing at times we will disagree, but no one will be cancelled . so joining me today cancelled. so joining me today is broadcast columnist lizzie

cundyi is broadcast columnist lizzie cundy i a broadcaster and political commentator and sam dowler . before we get started, dowler. before we get started, let's get your latest news headunes. let's get your latest news headlines . coming up. let's get your latest news headlines . coming up . one minute headlines. coming up. one minute pass for andre addison in the . pass for andre addison in the. gb newsroom 276 fly by staff have been made redundant with the airline going into administration for the second time in three years, around 75,000 holiday makers have had bookings cancelled and the uk civil aviation authority is flybe customers to travel to airports, fly returned to the skies last april after collapsing in 2020. operating flights i7 destinations. the sun's travel editor lisa minnow is confident that the workers will find jobs, flights hugely in demand and we saw last summer, of course , the fact that summer, of course, the fact that actually flights were having to be because they didn't have enough staff. airlines are

desperate now for staff. so i think it's going to be a positive story in, a positive outcome for the 340 240 employees of the new flybe. i think they will definitely get very quickly because as you say as a whole, the sector is really recovering . there's huge demand recovering. there's huge demand for travel even with this cost of living crisis , a murder of living crisis, a murder investigation has been launched . a 15 year old investigation has been launched . a15 year old girl was investigation has been launched . a 15 year old girl was fatally . a15 year old girl was fatally stabbed . hexham, the 16 year old stabbed. hexham, the 16 year old boy, is also in after suffering serious but not life threatening injuries . northumbria police say injuries. northumbria police say , it follows a suspected assault . another 16 year old boy has been arrested and. he remains in custody . the keir starmer says custody. the keir starmer says labour has reformed under his leadership . addressing the leadership. addressing the london labour conference, he told members they must show voters the party different to the one britain rejected at the 2019 general election. he also promised to put the country first and warned party against

complacency . this crying out for complacency. this crying out for change, crying out for decisive and we must provide prove that can be a bold, reforming government show. not just what the tories done to britain, but the tories done to britain, but the british that labour could build a fairer, greener, more dynamic country with the economy that works . everyone, not just that works. everyone, not just those at the top. and the politics which trust communities with the power , control their with the power, control their own destiny or form . minister own destiny or form. minister lord peter mandelson seems to agree. he says labour must stay focussed on the election . the focussed on the election. the biggest risk is that we take the next in the bag, that we relax , next in the bag, that we relax, take it for granted. no no, no. we have to maintain our absolute focus on voters, particularly those voters who have yet to be convinced that labour does offer a credible united progressive for our country.

a credible united progressive for our country . the a credible united progressive for our country. the head a credible united progressive for our country . the head the for our country. the head the rmt union says . its members will rmt union says. its members will decide by the 8th of february whether to accept the latest and final offer from the rail group. mick lynch discussions will be held with members across the country over the next ten days. he told gb news the terms aren't great and he doesn't feel optimistic . what we've got is optimistic. what we've got is a really poor offer. the pay offer is below less than half of the rate inflation over these two years. inflation is running over 20 to 23% in the retail index. this is 9% over two years and we had no offer for three years before that. so this people are getting poorer and. at the same time their conditions and their working lives have been trampled all over. so . i'm suspicious all over. so. i'm suspicious about what's going on. i don't know if our members would be prepared to accept it . know if our members would be prepared to accept it. in international news graphic body cam footage been released in the

us showing, police in memphis beating , a black man who died beating, a black man who died three days later. now some people may find the following footage distressing . know . momma footage distressing. know. momma hey, you know, hey , give me 29 hey, you know, hey, give me 29 year old tyree nichols was kicked, punched, punched and pepper sprayed as he cried out for mother. five black officers have been sacked and are facing murder charges . president joe murder charges. president joe biden says , he's outraged and biden says, he's outraged and has called for an end to police misconduct . a former misconduct. a former conservative party chair says a number of members , they were number of members, they were denied a vote on rishi sunak becoming prime. in an interview with gb news jake berry's mr. sunak should have held endorsement vote during the leadership contest to show he had the support of the membership . i think even though membership. i think even though absolutely got the majority of mps a conservative of parliament

and now i support him as prime minister. everything he does there is a challenge he has is even if it's not true, there's a perception of the conservative parliamentary party now being disconnected from our membership because we didn't have that even if it was a sort of endorsed one vote. well you can that full interview with sir berry on gloria meats at 6 pm. you're watching gb news. we'll bring you more as it happens. now, let's get straight back to nana good afternoon. it is fast approaching . 7 minutes after approaching. 7 minutes after 4:00. this is a gb news where live on tv online and on digital radio . i'm live on tv online and on digital radio. i'm nana akua . i am woman radio. i'm nana akua. i am woman . okay, i'm going to set as a

woman i do not feel comfortable being forced share my private female only with biological men be it a trans woman or a regular quy- be it a trans woman or a regular guy. why because you're a biological . it is as simple guy. why because you're a biological. it is as simple as that now. this is not transphobic because it applies to all men . and i suspect most to all men. and i suspect most women with me, but are too afraid to say because look what happens when you do the treatment meted out to j.k. rowling for sticking up for women's rights . labour mp rosie women's rights. labour mp rosie duffield to go to her own party conference because supported the claim that only have a cervix and. kathleen stott hanged it out of job for believing that biology trumps gender. look, i have sympathy . there is a gender have sympathy. there is a gender dysphoria. it must be horrendous to feel the way that you do . is to feel the way that you do. is it okay that you accept that i the way i do, i simply don't want men to enter my female. only space because that space is women. and if you are a man , i women. and if you are a man, i don't feel comfortable with you

in it. calling yourself a woman won't make any difference to me. i lie to myself are i cannot lie to myself you are still a biological man. not still a biological man. i'm not trying make feel bad. trying to make feel bad. i appreciate those are your feelings but these are mine i personally don't want to have to deal with appeasing men in my feminine space because when women go there, we're often escaping men. a place where i as a woman. the week of physical sex feel i can disarm and unite with other women in my view trans people should also have their own space as just as women and men have, that being inclusive doesn't mean everyone inclusive doesn't mean everyone in the same space. to me it means there is a space for everyone and that is how it should be. i don't want to compete in with biological men. my compete in with biological men. my strength is an advantage. i don't want to negotiate whether or not a biologic or man should be allowed in a refuge for women or to have to defend . those who or to have to defend. those who have to deal with who have to deal with men who believe are women in a prison , i believe are women in a prison, i don't to water down what it don't want to water down what it means. woman by being means. be a woman by being forced share the forced to share the world category under guise of

category under the guise of equality, that it shouldn't equality, and that it shouldn't matter because does. women fought for the vote equal pay and for roles , powerful and for roles, powerful positions. countries positions. and in countries afghanistan they are fighting an education. women different to men. we have periods can affect our performance and our mood most of us can have children and nearly all of us go through the menopause in. my view this is living as a woman things a man can never do . i applaud can never do. i applaud transpeople for, their bravery and strength taking on the world, being proud to be honest about who they are as. i applaud anybody and within reason we respect the pronouns and the names that you want me to call it, but it be at the expense of me as a woman. i'm sorry if that makes some people feel bad and makes some people feel bad and makes them want to call me names like. terf puts this in front or unfairly label me a transphobe try to vilify me. i love all people. it's none of my business what you do or in your private life. i just want female only spaces to stay that way . sorry

spaces to stay that way. sorry if it makes some people feel bad that i'm the genuine article, but i will not back down on this one, and neither should i. i celebrate being a woman . a woman celebrate being a woman. a woman does not have a penis. celebrate being a woman. a woman does not have a penis . right? so does not have a penis. right? so before we get stuck into the debate, what else is coming up today? the great british debate this hour. i'm should we bring back the death penalty now? conservative lee anderson has conservative mp lee anderson has said that he supports capital punishment following the murder of roberts by a 21 year old afghan asylum seeker. and this follows numerous crimes in recent years such as the murders of lee rigby and saba everard, following questions , taxpayer following questions, taxpayer money prison life for money funding, prison life for those with commit the worst crimes in society . so should we crimes in society. so should we actually bring back the death penalty for 50? it's all round up time in biographer andrew levin will be in the studio to give us the latest from behind palace william and kate have made surprise visit to the made a surprise visit to the foodbank this week help

foodbank this week and help prepare most prepare food vouchers. most rumours are circulating around the possibility of a second prince harry book. i'll spare us what's going to be released in the future. then at 5:00 it is this week's difficult convert session. lady victoria heavy will be long live in studio now she was in a relationship with prince andrew and she's claimed in the past that a tourist photo of him with virginia fry was fake, despite seeing the original . you won't want to miss original. you won't want to miss that. that's coming up in the next hour. tell me what you think. everything we're discussing, you can email at k or tweet me at . gb news. right. or tweet me at. gb news. right. let's get started. that's welcome again to my panel broadcast columnist lizzie cundy . i say broadcaster and political commentator sam dowler. riots i'm gonna start with you, lizzie. it seems you are a biological woman . what do are a biological woman. what do you think? how do you feel about that? i am a woman. i'm very

happy about an adult female. in case c'est is watching and doesn't what one is. but doesn't know what one is. but getting a sick and tired of getting a bit sick and tired of feeling intimidated and silenced because . i don't agree with because. i don't agree with wanting a trans world man in my you know, if i if i go to the toilet or if i'm in a changing room and, making me feel really bad about it i think it's terrible and i think what nicholas sturgeon is doing an absolute disgrace women and she's a to women and we've seen this with the case the trans woman who raped two women before she changed into a trans woman, of course, and race is going to, you know , wanting to be in you know, wanting to be in a female jail when . course. and female jail when. course. and that's not to say we're not that trans people are rapists, things like that. but the point of the is it does open is that it does open the floodgates are floodgates to people who are disingenuous, like would appear this person was i get your point you get my point 90 deter or try and find loophole that's and find a loophole and that's the problem and that's what

makes nicola sturgeon's bill such and she is as i said a disgrace to women and a danger to women. well, she's back—pedalling by the looks of it, but what do make of that? you do feel offended with women saying, look, we're women and we want celebrate. all we want to celebrate. we all we know, course, and you know, know, of course, and you know, if people celebrate if people want to celebrate their fine. but their women, that's fine. but i mean , obviously, i don't agree mean, obviously, i don't agree with jk rowling i don't agree with jk rowling i don't agree with rosie duffield either. not a a of labour mp a lot of a lot of labour mp don't agree with her either. i'm of i had gender of course, if i had gender critical think she's critical views, i think she's you know, she's been you know, she's she's been sucked into this lgb alliance gang with the gang with with some of the people spoke to who people that you spoke to who think that you know there should be should be no t in lgbt be this should be no t in lgbt even though obviously trans people more people need more need more protection than a lot of us. so my protection than a lot of us. so my point is, is that if you so you were talking about, you know, female only spaces mean, hey, we a gb news where, you hey, we are a gb news where, you know, are know, the toilets are genderless. for example . so in genderless. for example. so in which case he would, you know, you would, you share the toilet with genuine here. i don't like it but what the what

it but what but what the what i'm saying as well is that if is, you know, fully trans they've bottom surgery and they've had a bottom surgery and top can't even tell top surgery you can't even tell what would you would you say that they would go to toilet that they would go to the toilet for would get to for example, they would get to the the women's they'd the toilet. the women's they'd be danger went the be in danger if they went to the men's. so you're men's. so that's. so you're saying you but like saying that you but like genetically they're still they're the they're still male on the inside. genetically. inside. like genetically. but obviously, the gender obviously, you know, the gender females where you females have, where would you say first of all, say they would go? first of all, you that is what you're you said that is what you're saying. she supports me then the selflessness, no that selflessness, of course. no that that i'm actually that is her view. i'm actually relating to the comment that she made, with regard made, which is that with regard to the notion, women to supporting the notion, women only women have a cervix, which i perfectly i think is a perfectly legitimate say it's legitimate thing to say it's real. it's true. well, trans man have service as well. it's have a service as well. it's your when take your your dna when you take your bones it's a trans this bones up but it's a trans this woman is ultimately woman is a biological we're biological woman and we're talking woman. talking about biological woman. so are trans man you are so if you are trans man you are still cannot change still you cannot you change your anatomy because . yeah exactly is anatomy because. yeah exactly is the ology is that thing that kathleen's brought up that said biology trumps gender which i

absolutely of course it does. i mean, you know, you. yeah, but i bet that what that gang , there's bet that what that gang, there's a, there's a kind of erasure of , of trans women to organise by, by saying they, you know, they don't exist or non—binary people or, non—binary people don't or, or non—binary people don't exist. i mean, that is that is that's what lgb like i said , that's what lgb like i said, i've said the past, well, i've said in the past, well, i don't know. they be at all. don't know. they will be at all. they're not here either. they can't this from can't. but this themselves from there. that's what you're saying. it's not fair saying. yeah. so it's not fair to women look competing to women look at even competing in my friend now know in sports my friend now know you know work so hard as an know was to work so hard as an athlete and she's now to compete against women it says she how she can be that they could have you been to the toilet with with it but that's with a trans person has other man has come out in a way yes. how this ever happened to you as a man, as man in a wig, fit into a female saying, fair to race when a man is so much stronger. he's seen this in. they you know, this is

the sport is so , so tiny. no, the sport is so, so tiny. no, it's this hasn't happened this hasn't happened in the let's bnng hasn't happened in the let's bring it back to the let's talk about that almost and has yeah and it has happened and that's what nicholas sturgeon was saying with regard so it's not likely that anyone would try and use this to abuse it use the law this way to abuse it . and also she was saying that someone doing that's a male . someone doing it that's a male. exactly. and that's the point is that it opens the door to people who are not genuine. so for us women to feel safe, we would rather for me personally, the was to him very clearly but nice but that is that is akin to kind of saying that all muslims are terrorists you're you're saying that you're not they're not you're of course. then what? but for your community to kindness and understanding and care. but no, you you to scope this time come back . if you would have come back. if you would have a problem, say i've got to it with a genuine trans woman. you. i want to share that with and i'm talking about genuine trans like

laverne cox from from orange is the new black mean ? she is. she the new black mean? she is. she was going to the toilet. no, i told you, sam, as a woman and i am a woman. want to be around am a woman. i want to be around women when i go to the toilet. change you want to feel vulnerable? of course. vulnerable? okay. of course. no. no one should vulnerable . no one should feel vulnerable. what was that there what i was saying was that there should have should be. everyone should have that we should all that space. but we should all be together. know , i'm not together. but, you know, i'm not saying, know, all trans is saying, you know, all trans is on saying that it opens the door to make us vulnerable. so yeah you a clear and you had a clear line and everybody then everybody their space but then we as anyway and to me we all unite as anyway and to me that would be what i think i think all the rules need to be been asking and start again need to start get hey we should to start to get hey we should have prison spaces for. have special prison spaces for. well, what i'm saying. well, that's what i'm saying. that's for safety of trans that's for the safety of trans people well. the point that's people as well. the point that's the point to the safety of the point as to the safety of everyone. yeah. question what everyone. yeah. in question what believe actually came to believe it we actually came to an agreement this is boring you know with me i'm not this is a gb news on tv online and on digital radio. after the break, it's digital radio. after the break, wsfime digital radio. after the break, it's time our great british to think this out. i'm asking

should we bring back the death penalty? conservative mp absolutely has revealed that he supports capital punishment following the murder of aspiring royal marine thomas roberts, a 21 year old afghan asylum seeker. now the death penalty has been abolished for over years and the last execution was actually in 1964. but is it actually in 1964. but is it actually to bring it back? some of your thoughts, email vaiews@gbnews.uk tell me what you think. you can also email or me at gb news. i've a poll up right now asking that very question should we bring back death penalty? cast your vote now. we'll be back after the .

break hello. good afternoon. if you're just joining me, where have been so you've just missed the beginning. you've only miss 20 minutes. coming up to 21 minutes. it's coming up to 21 minutes. it's coming up to 21 minutes after 4:00. this is gb news are the people's channel. i'm not a square. now, before

the break, was discussing opinions , especially on trans opinions, especially on trans women. have a look at women. so let's have a look at what you've been ross what you've been saying. ross says, i completely says, dear nana, i completely agree. people need spaces agree. trans people need spaces of their own. there a of their own. there is a brilliant monologue at the start. nana. thanks start. your show, nana. thanks frank says. did out a trans women are genetically male x y chromosomes which cannot be changed. exactly. alan's as you also write, standing up for women. thank you very much. thank you so much. well, it's time for our great british debate this and i'm debate this hour. and i'm asking, we reintroduce asking, should we reintroduce the penalty? conservative the death penalty? conservative mp for ashfield anderson mp for ashfield lee anderson revealed to gb news is dan wootton week that he supports capital punishment following the murder of aspiring marine thomas roberts. now, thomas was murdered by a 21 year old afghan asylum seeker. now . this asylum seeker. now. this creature is not a man is , a creature is not a man is, a creature is not a man is, a creature that is murdered abroad . miner is told lies is has been has been put foster care is cost british taxpayer thousands and of pounds . and now we're going

of pounds. and now we're going to put him in prison. 20, 20 odd years in a cost of british taxpayer, thousands and thousands of pounds. that's not the answer. and i, you know, i think the answer is and i'll say this with a heavy heart is probably at end of a rope. i believe in the death penalty for cases like this. he should be put sleep. absolute waste of put to sleep. absolute waste of space. should on. this space. he should not be on. this earth doing a wicked, awful earth is doing a wicked, awful and that family's to live and that family's got to live with the rest of their with this for the rest of their life. mm. well this horrific murder follows the crimes and recent , such the murder of recent, such as the murder of sarah everard by wayne cousins, which called question british which is called question british taxpayers funding prison taxpayers money funding prison life for those who commit the worst society. however, a worst in society. however, a yougov poll last year that britons are generally more likely not to support the death penalty , although they do penalty, although they do support the death penalty . support the death penalty. extreme as multiple extreme crimes such as multiple murders , murders by of murders, murders by acts of terrorism and murders of children . the last uk execution children. the last uk execution took place in 1964, where peter allen and gwyn evans hanged for the murder, and john west capital punishment in britain has been abolished for over 50

years. so for the great british debate this year, i'm asking should reintroduce death should we reintroduce the death penalty? by penalty? i'm joined now by former labour minister for europe writer dennis europe and writer dennis mcshane, professor of law and, a writer and spectator, andrew bowen, and political commentator matthew stadlen and also former sun editor mackenzie. oh, something's. sun editor mackenzie. oh, something's . somewhere in the something's. somewhere in the middle or going to start with you, kelvin. what do you make of this and do you what's view on the death penalty although it i there have been some shocking cases lately and the one that comes to mind most readily for me is the one involving the guy who just got 38 is for murdering perfectly innocent woman walking home, a lawyer i think she was 35 years old. her life was she beat beater remorselessly. it was a sexual driven frenzy and it emerged, of course, that had beenin it emerged, of course, that had been in jail, i think, for a good period of his life before hand. and he had already and he

gets 38 years. what is the point of us giving him a warm cell food every day for a man who is dnvenin food every day for a man who is driven in manner. i personally i wouldn't drop a when he's when he's executed . i'm not sure the he's executed. i'm not sure the ropes the answer why don't we use the american system of injection. i can see no justification keeping this wicked man on god's earth. and there's a guy that seems to be smiling. i don't knows if it was you. if was your wife or your daughter, would you smile? i think you'd probably kill him yourself, matthew. well, answer the question. yeah. we in this country, we take. we take punishment, crime and out of the hands of the victims, as kelvin well knows , kelvin is someone i well knows, kelvin is someone i worked for this. this is guy that kelvin know. well it's to when was the bbc and in when i was at the bbc and in person he's great fun he's such a fun chap he drips out a rather fun chap he drips out constant poison on twitter and then that's a on the substance of the issue. yes, on the

substance , the issue. you can substance, the issue. you can come back if he wants on the of the issue. it's interesting that people like kelvin, who've got such a big problem with killers , as do i and still others think it's a good idea to kill in revenge is very old testament. well, kelvin belongs to light lee anderson in the 1950s. or perhaps even further back in old testament times , christianity testament times, christianity preaches forgiveness. that's the new testament. that's message of christ and kelvin is preaching again . it's that message. but again. it's that message. but wasn't christ himself crucified 7 wasn't christ himself crucified ? kelvin well, my point. my point really that i there are two aspects i can't get to this . one is what drives somebody to murder in that way. . one is what drives somebody to murder in that way . secondly, murder in that way. secondly, why once we've discovered what drives them to why on earth we put them away at our expense ? put them away at our expense? well, because we know for certain that they are and are likely potentially to do

something like again. but we should simply , with the should simply, with the substance of the matter , which substance of the matter, which is this woman is dead now a family have to live with this with with this forever. why should we keep fed and watered? it's me. and by the way, i've felt like this. so it's no , i felt like this. so it's no, i haven't done it. this isn't a johnny come lately. i think i absolutely cannot understand nor . can i understand anybody who thinks that should carry on just putting them into a jail and let them them rot in jail at our expense ? dennis mcshane i start expense? dennis mcshane i start on this as very young bbc reporter in birmingham in november 74. oh, we're not going to that far back and get a. well, hang on a second. so it's quite import 21 people were blown up by an ira terrorist network 181 injured, some maimed for life. i was almost next door in a restaurant went down. let's start the reporting you can do much reporting when it's a terrorist incident i look

wonderful british cops just told six irish men off the ferry boat and put the charge them and the spent a long time in prison and. the judge at the trial said i'm so sorry abolished hanging because i would love to sentence all to death a wonderful british judge, a wonderful british court. every one of those men was innocent and it took come payback. was innocent and it took come payback . i could yeah but to payback. i could yeah but to expose in an and an instance . expose in an and an instance. sorry i'm going to have to stop you that is we're talking about people we know have committed the murder. think how the murder. think you know, how can we know in the case can we not? we know in the case of miscarriage of justice, which is just done said we know in the case of people like aleena case of people like zara aleena who know who committed the murder we know in case this lad he was in the case this poor lad he was murdered this gentleman we murdered by this gentleman we know. and when we know i can't really see what the problem is. andrew, let's to andrew, let's good. let's get to andrew. thoughts. andrew. andrew your thoughts. i'm disappoint you here,

i'm going disappoint you here, actually, because any actually, because like any academic, to sit on academic, i'm going to sit on the fence . what i think it is the fence. what i think it is worth saying , let's say my own worth saying, let's say my own personal view is that if we had a proposal to reinstate the death penalty , listen to both death penalty, listen to both sides and i'd be open persuasion either way, which what any academic debate it would actually be very difficult to get it back . one point that get it back. one point that think everyone has to realise is it would involve getting out of the european on human rights . we the european on human rights. we have signed the 13th protocol called to that convention which says we promise to abolish the death penalty in all circumstances without exception. you can't find it. circumstances without exception. you can't find it . we'd have to you can't find it. we'd have to get to the european convention on human . now my own view and on human. now my own view and anyone watching here who's a liberal will go is it would be no bad thing if we did get out

of the european convention on human rights and a different matter . but human rights and a different matter. but we would have to it would also be politically very difficult for the house of commons is i think fairly strongly against it despite lee anderson and the house of lords is now a sort of rest home for liberal rules and undoubtedly they would be absolutely against it , but they would be absolutely against it, but parliament could do it if it wanted. it's not contrary to international law , at least to international law, at least not i think according to the better view of international law . lots of countries do it. over half the population of world that lives in countries where the death penalty , what is on the death penalty, what is on the death penalty, what is on the statute book. so it could be dumb my only other is that what britain not to do is finger wag at countries that have the death

penalty. well i just happened why don't if calvert covered so against killing his idea dealing with killing is to kill them by the way, i think we know it's not a deterrent. violent crime statistics . oh, surveys in statistics. oh, surveys in america suggest that . we know america suggest that. we know there have been multiple miscarriages, justice in america, as there have been in country. why be more country. why don't we be more like calvert? i'm sure like saudi calvert? i'm sure you'd we also you'd love that. why we also bnng you'd love that. why we also bring flogging torture, cut bring back flogging torture, cut people's genitals off in public squares. that's what kelvin wants. you don't know what kelvin wants you to think . i kelvin wants you to think. i mean, it's kind of clearly, clearly spent too much time in the pub before he came on there. i mean, the reaction really should be i don't think there's anything wrong with revenge what's wrong with revenge , i what's wrong with revenge, i suppose supposing you were the mother and father of that , that mother and father of that, that the lady they they the lawyer who was murdered , ilford in this who was murdered, ilford in this far away . how would you be easy

far away. how would you be easy to feel like you do now? because you haven't got any skin in the game, right? if it was if it was if it was my daughter or it was perhaps your wife or your partner, how would you feel? that's why we seek justice and punishment out of the hands of the victim. so let's let's just tell the truth. you know, he get us on to that, not you finish it. we don't take punishment out of the hands , the victims. of the hands, the victims. anyway, if you look at the way in which sentences of imprisonment are reckoned, there an element of retribution in and it's written into them and you do into account victim impact that's different from . that's that's different from. that's the death penalty but it's not right to say you take no account of the views of the victims. now the good design is good and it's just back to some facts. a lot of emotion here . there was a of emotion here. there was a petition parliament tonight. so

to 2018 session which anybody could side calling for the return of the death and a total of 118 people signed it. i don't think it's been any parliamentary petition with so little interest . we've had the little interest. we've had the professor and daryl hobbs. they should do it again. when was that? when it what you say? it was 70 days. it was a horrible it's the idea, but it's already started the last year or two. it's just stuff. what was it, though, that was because it though, that it was because it does geographical visual does have so geographical visual of where all the signatures came from which his signature seem to come from lincoln and up in the north. well listen, i don't want that, but listen to the it again. i'd sign it to bring it back. that's all i can say. alison, thank very much to my wonderful panellists, former labour minister for europe, doris mcshane , tessanne bone, doris mcshane, tessanne bone, professor of , law and writer in professor of, law and writer in the spectator, matthew staton, former and former sun editor kelvin mckenzie. thank you very much . thanks so much . right.

much. thanks so much. right. well campaign group, the death penalty project has said that this this capital punishment, we believe that the death penalty is a cruel, inhuman punishment which discriminates against the poorest and most disadvantaged members society. we use the law to change, to achieve further criminal justice systems where the human rights of all people are upheld . you're with me on are upheld. you're with me on that. this is gb news. we're live on tv, online and on digital radio. after the break. we'll continue with our great british debate. i'm asking, should bring back death should we bring back the death penalty? the thoughts penalty? we'll hear the thoughts of broadcast columnist of my panel broadcast columnist lizzie cundy also broadcast on political sam dowler political commentator sam dowler . stay tuned because at . and stay tuned because at 5:00, is this week's 5:00, it is this week's difficult conversation. and lady happy will joining me in the happy will be joining me in the studio to discuss the relationship and the thoughts of prince andrew and that notorious photo with . virginia photo of him with. virginia giuffre. won't want miss giuffre. you won't want miss that. but first, let's get your latest headlines . 4:33 on

latest headlines. 4:33 on radisson in the gb newsroom, 276 fly by star have been made redundant with the airline going into administration for the second time in three years, around 75,000 holiday makers have had bookings cancelled in the uk civil . aviation authority the uk civil. aviation authority is urging the carrier's customers to not airports . the customers to not airports. the head of the rmt union says its members will decide by the four february whether to accept latest and final offer from the rail delivery group. discussions will be held with members across the country over the next ten days. told us earlier the terms are really poor and he isn't . are really poor and he isn't. sir keir starmer says labour has reformed under his leadership. addressing the labour conference, he told members they must show voters the party is different to the one britain rejected at the 2019 general election. he warned against complacency told the audience

the fight against forms of hate and discrimination never stops . and discrimination never stops. and tributes been flooding in for claire drake foote, the wife of welsh minister who died suddenly this afternoon. downing street says the prime minister has passed on deepest condolences to. mark drake for privately labour leader sir keir starmer issued , a statement starmer issued, a statement saying his family would in his thoughts and prayers during this difficult time . we're on tv difficult time. we're on tv onune difficult time. we're on tv online and on dab+ radio. you're watching , listening to online and on dab+ radio. you're watching, listening to gb online and on dab+ radio. you're watching , listening to gb news. watching, listening to gb news. don't go anywhere , nana. we'll don't go anywhere, nana. we'll be back in just a moment.

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nana akua. it's time for our great budget debate this hour. i'm asking should be reintroduce the death penalty. conservative mp lee anderson revealed that he supports capital punishment and that's following the murder . that's following the murder. aspiring royal marine thomas roberts thomas was murdered by a 21 year old afghanistan island seeker. now the murder follows other crimes in recent years, such as the murder of sarah everard by wayne cousins, which has called into question british taxpayers funding prison taxpayers money funding prison life for who commit the life for those who commit the most heinous . so for the great most heinous. so for the great british debate this year, i'm asking, should we be introducing the penalty ? joining me the death penalty? joining me now discuss on my panel, now to discuss on my panel, broadcaster and columnist lizzie cundy and also political commentator sam dowler . some of commentator sam dowler. some of these start with you because . these start with you because. you're your like sort of liberal and left and sort of nice . you and left and sort of nice. you don't want to bring it back. thought i'd bring it on. of course . no. i mean, you know, we course. no. i mean, you know, we move past this. you what was 1965? was last one, the 1965? was that the last one, the last hanging ? i mean, you last hanging? so, i mean, you know, no better the know, we'd be no better the taliban, this this sort

taliban, if this is if this sort thing we do. i mean, of course, you know, in but still still it's happened in america but few and and they and far between. and they obviously you obviously and they use, you know, lethal injection . but know, a lethal injection. but likewise, we were going likewise, if we were going to have that, why stop that one or just have, you know, hangings in the well, that's not the towns. well, that's not quite saying and quite what we're saying is. and as better than taliban, as we know better than taliban, they do that. is they got to do that. this is about who's committed about somebody who's committed a heinous you know, it's heinous murder. you know, it's them. and you're of executing them, l, them, getting just and i, i agree with that. what they don't approve death penalty. but approve the death penalty. but i do things you do agree with things like, you know, murder, etc. but you know, child murder, etc. but you you'd it. so you would you'd like it. so you would agree with the death penalty? no, don't. don't. like no, i don't. i don't. and like in for example, they they in 1908, for example, they they banned executing under 16 banned executing people under 16 children. so i mean, like, children. 16. so i mean, like, look at the apologists, killers example. would you have would you executed? they you have executed? would they just i wouldn't just children? no no, i wouldn't actually i've actually do that. now, i've thought with i thought about this with them. i would them and then would incarcerate them and then they'd i don't know what they'd have i don't know what they'd have i don't know what the sentence would how many the sentence would be. how many years, 30 years whatever years, 20, 30 years or whatever it they come out. if it is, when they come out. if they committed further they then committed further crimes, would warning that crimes, it would be warning that if they will be

if they do, they will be executed, that now have executed, that we now have participants. i help on the folger charity. know mother folger charity. i know mother i'm horrific circumstances i'm very horrific circumstances but what she they when they want it there was no programming them they were released without any . they were released without any. and the trouble is with are getting you know prison sentences they are to cells number one that they're getting luxuries placed asians i just had one got a £50 token to go and get smokes wanted steak to eat you know you cannot believe this they should be given a mattress and then rewarded things for good behaviour. then they get maybe a book, maybe half an hour of television , half an hour of television, something like that. they need to be released or actually in prison . in prison. but when they prison. in prison. but when they the worry is , the reoffending the worry is, the reoffending and% of men re—offend to go back into prison because when they get out of prison , they don't get out of prison, they don't have a bank account, will give them a job and they don't know what to do. so they go back to their own ways . and that is a

their own ways. and that is a problem with the system. i think that's a point you've that's a good point that you've out there, obviously it out there, that obviously it would be better the system would retrain and educate people. but for don't want pay my for those i don't want pay my taxpayers that. for taxpayers money to do that. for those committed crimes those who've committed crimes like i think like this for me, i don't think there's turning for them. there's turning back for them. i don't whether they're don't care whether they're actually think this actually i think on this occasion murderers, occasion, child murderers, especially , they've been especially if, they've been caught handed, even . i would caught red handed, even. i would look that well . you know, look at that as well. you know, i look for the for the i would look for the for the thing. but the thing is, i would think i you know, i don't think that i you know, i don't i don't agree with the death penalty at all. but i do agree with with heinous crimes like that a full life that that it should a full life sentence and it should it sentence and it should and it shouldn't. and shouldn't be shouldn't. and it shouldn't be like it shouldn't like life and it shouldn't be like life and it shouldn't be like holiday it should like a holiday camp. it should be some sort of gulag where be like some sort of gulag where they horrible food for the they get horrible food for the rest time. spending to rest of time. we are spending to money the to get out. if they if they put to death. i don't they get put to death. i don't want of it but that what's want out of it but that what's happening with the with the prison said that prison system as i said that people out people they coming out re—offending going re—offending and just going straight in again. well straight back in again. well prisons are overcrowded and prisons are overcrowded and

prison want to prison officers don't want to work not safe and work there. it's not safe and know it's dreadful place to be, but they need to make it so people want to go into prison so know it's like a holiday, you know, holiday camp penalty. no, i agree with the death penalty. i agree with the death penalty. i don't agree with the death penalty because it is the. i don't agree with a life for life. it's the ultimate inhumane , degrading punishment . but i do , degrading punishment. but i do think a sentence should if you say life it's life. and i feel for the families do they get you know if a woman that we saw in the news today , you know, the the news today, you know, the mother calling out for his mother calling out for his mother , the mother would be like mother, the mother would be like wanting revenge and understand that. but sentence has to mean like you mean like look at some of the countries. there's a death penalty. i mean, you remember the world cup. of course it is qatar . yeah. you course it is qatar. yeah. you know, guess what? not nobody is arrested from this country. will stands and know stands arrested. and you know why? they'd why? because they knew they'd get think it's six get six months. i think it's six months if you got caught

drinking. knew it's drinking. they knew that it's serious punishments that if serious punishments and that if they doing anything they were caught doing anything that illegal. there the that was illegal. there was the opfion that was illegal. there was the option sort of crime, option of that sort of crime, that of punishment well. that sort of punishment as well. so believe it when people so don't believe it when people say, if you put out say, oh, no, even if you put out the death penalty, it won't make a difference. think it would. the death penalty, it won't make athink'ence. think it would. the death penalty, it won't make athink it|ce. think it would. the death penalty, it won't make athink it going hink it would. the death penalty, it won't make athink it going byk it would. the death penalty, it won't make athink it going by terror)uld. i think it going by terror surely. what's wrong with that if you're a criminal? look, i'm not criminal, yeah, i'm not a criminal, so. yeah, i'm not a criminal, so. yeah, i'm not about it either, not worried about it either, don't as far as don't you? as far as a perpetrator, you know, if you're killing them, it's worse they killing them, it's worse if they given worse and the given the worse time. and the fact another lot. i'll be fact is, another lot. i'll be there listen, you've there tonight. listen, you've asked i was no, i'm asked me that them i was no, i'm not the perpetrator. i would not was the perpetrator. i would i would think that taking that person taking favour for person i'm taking a favour for everybody we don't everybody else so we don't have to i'm also saving to deal with. i'm also saving people load of money. i'd people a load of money. i'd rather spend my taxpayers money on, nhs and on, say put it in the nhs and help people to try and live a cancer treatment or something like rather than paying like that, rather than paying for is going for somebody who is only going to it? that to come, does it? but that doesn't doesn't bible preach doesn't doesn't the bible preach forgiveness? i saw an forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye for an eye makes, the whole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye foblindye makes, the whole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye fo blind. no,|akes, the whole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye fo blind. no, buts, the whole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye foblind. no, but ifthe whole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye foblind. no, but if your/hole forgiveness? oh, when i saw an eye fo blind. no, but if your own world blind. no, but if your own you know you as a mother, if i

if someone hurt my son. gosh, yes, i would. then you say yes, i would. well, then you say so, you will him. so, but you will kill him. i them to be imprisoned to not to be released, not to have the food to have a life food tokens, to and have a life that wouldn't. so that's that they wouldn't. so that's what's going to holiday. they going should be in going to prison should be in prison. mean never prison. it doesn't mean never will all will especially with this all this rights on and this rights thing going on and we will get the death penalty as the law said, if we are still within european convention within the european convention of the bottom of human rights. so the bottom line that that's going line is that that's never going to person who's done to happen. the person who's done that will never have that. that awful will never have that. the in the submission you've put in your never happen. we your head will never happen. we never wanted to either take them out of death penalty is out of the death penalty is obviously irreversible. it's someone that's as someone innocent that's just as well thing well is. that is one thing i okay and it's not impossible to be submerged and treason you know got it back it know if we got it back make it then harry been trouble with no, no no they wouldn't that's not fair. this and they fair. haven't done this and they haven't suppose haven't they want to suppose she's in the situation. she's in the same situation. that can i just say that wouldn't be. can i just say i wouldn't do it for treason? i am. i'm saying like you were saying the european court saying about the european court of i mean, of of human rights. i mean, of course, should within course, we should remain within that. i'm short to.

that. i mean like i'm short to. not sorry, like she she'd not sorry, like if she she'd have up at the in the have gallows up at the up in the in the in camps. i think that's fine. i think she's actually expressing a view that a lot of people in country feel and people in this country feel and a of people like you say a lot of people like you say that and until it happens, you or something bad happens to them. even if happens to happen to i would to my family, i would still i mean, look look at the mean, look at look at the example lizzie put up latest example lizzie put up the latest latest by police the of latest murder by police the of the got up and was the boy got straight up and was you give these killers you know they give these killers but they have the death penalty in country and that country in that country and that country running state. running away in that state. whether they do but in that state, done a state state, if they'd done in a state with death penalty they, with the death penalty they, probably penalty. probably face the death penalty. so, change how so, you know to change how prisons then prisons are working, then working overcrowding and working on the overcrowding and they are they need be they they are they need to be they get of prison need to have get out of prison need to have someone helping them than someone helping them rather than them re—offend because them going to re—offend because they even get bank they can't even get a bank account. people want to account. people don't want to employ properly been in employ it properly been in prison needs to so they prison that needs to so they don't re—offend. they go back into prison. but prison should mean you know, it's hard, mean, you know, it's hard, horrible not you know, that's not going happen. they don't

not going to happen. they don't really i think they're really need i think they're actually they will kill two birds with one stone. first of all, you will us a load of money. and secondly, person is no longer that to and so what's to right. this show is to like right. this show is nothing without and your views that's a great british that's welcome a great british voice opportunity on voice your opportunity to be on the tell us what you the show and tell us what you think topics they're think about the topics they're discussing. it was we had over 2 hours of going bristol again. hours of going to bristol again. i like that. one of the i do like that. one of the animals there is leigh harris. it's woman. of it's an old woman. it's one of the leave you and i you the best leave you and i you know what would you be know what do you think the? death penalty. should we bring back ? i have should we bring it back? i have huge respect for lee anderson and he makes a really compelling but i do personally this a bit of a tricky subject but i do, i have to say that i agree with your stance on this i think is kind of where i'm sitting to , kind of where i'm sitting to, you know, just playing devil's advocate statistically is up for debate. matt stadler was going way too far is up for debate in the us whether it actually work as a deterrent, it does in some

states, it doesn't in others . states, it doesn't in others. but there is good evidence that the death penalty does have a you know, it has it has a good effect in some countries like singapore and japan example. and it's not clear, however, that it would have the same impact because a different because we have a different legal a different legal system and a different culture . that being here's culture. that being said, here's where i kind of agree with you , where i kind of agree with you, ihave where i kind of agree with you, i have a seven year old daughter. if i try and put in the position of victims, which i think should do in this think everyone should do in this debate because i think that's important some of the of some important. some of the of some of the most evil crimes. i find it hard to see death penalty as acceptable for very specific cases where there's absolute really no doubt that the person is guilty. it also costs us less in the run. you know, i'm really sympathetic to that point of view. so this is it, right? if you asked me, do i think the death penalty suitable for a mass murdering , killing, mass murdering, killing, terrorist . yes, i would not lose terrorist. yes, i would not lose sleep over that at all. would i

mind living in a country where that happens. no i wouldn't mind . well, don't go to america . . well, don't go to america. listen, thank you very much, leigh. just thank you very much for joining me. that is leigh. forjoining me. that is leigh. he is a great british voice well, today i'm asking, should we reduced the penalty? we be reduced the death penalty? and you've been getting and lots of you've been getting touch with your views, tom says no. happens ? miscarriages no. what happens? miscarriages of think we've , of justice. i think we've, covered we wouldn't do it covered that. we wouldn't do it unless knew. was unless we knew. it was definitely. says. definitely. david says. absolutely sanctioned absolutely not. state sanctioned murder the behaviour of a murder is not the behaviour of a civilised society. well, yeah, you say that , but then you may say that, but then i don't think letting people run who and not actually who are right and not actually prosecuting when they're done stuff either civilised stuff bad is either civilised either robert says, i do not trust the states and i very much do want to grant power do not want to grant the power to me. wouldn't kill to kill me. they wouldn't kill you, you wouldn't do you, robert. you wouldn't do anything you're with me . anything right. you're with me. not okay. this is a good to the onune not okay. this is a good to the online and on digital radio on the way this week's difficult conversation lady victoria how the will be live in the studio talking about that infamous

photo and whether she thinks prince andrew will try to clear his name . we'll be back after his name. we'll be back after this. on the way though, the royal roundup, royal biographer 11 will join me in the studio to talk about kate's most talk about and kate's most recent trip and the possibility of sequel to harry's book, of a sequel to harry's book, spare . don't go anywhere .

is this coming to 52 minutes after 4:00? this is gb news are the people's channel. i'm a queer now. there's always something going on in the royal household. and this has been no different . william and kate have different. william and kate have made a surprise visit to the foodbank this week, and they've helped prepare food vouchers . helped prepare food vouchers. and there are rumours . yes, and there are rumours. yes, that's right. of potential . that's right. of potential. second, prince harry gets every . i'd like to give you a rundown who better to do that than royal

biographer andrew levin. angela, good to see you. pretty amazing to be here . lots to see. so we to be here. lots to see. so we start william and kate. let's do let's start with. yeah well you have to really think how wonderful they are . they work wonderful they are. they work very well sometimes they go to something that seems quite bonng something that seems quite boring , but they always look boring, but they always look enthusiastic , they blend enthusiastic, they blend together and you really feel they're concerned . that's what i they're concerned. that's what i think. it's not about them . it's think. it's not about them. it's about helping their sense of duty , i think runs in their duty, i think runs in their veins. and you can see that the time, wherever they and although they've had a really horrible time hearing what harry's written oh gosh, it must have been very, very upset, upsetting for them. they are very not going to let it shaken. he sees it as well. and the public. yes and of course, now prince william is extremely rich , is william is extremely rich, is his? yes. i mean , now has become his? yes. i mean, now has become what his father , his his got what his father, his his got loads of money. oh, do you think

what it is he doesn't have to write biographies and things this on a cold saturday afternoon . no it doesn't but afternoon. no it doesn't but he's very wealthy. but i mean, he's very wealthy. but i mean, he doesn't show it he doesn't show off about and he doesn't have to try and come up with another edition to spare which is where we're go next with prince harry. he's a parent. is this true? bringing in food come out . they said it this true? bringing in food come out. they said it was 30 this true? bringing in food come out . they said it was 30 which out. they said it was 30 which is now 12 weeks. so that would come out volume two. he said at the beginning he had another 400 pages that he could do and i think this is blackmail. i think i think because did send it what's going to be in it is going to really shock them and it's going to really upset charles and william and it will be something they'll probably never forgive him well so if he wants to do that why does he then want to come to the coronation or once his back again. and if you want your family back you're nice you're come you try and find the good

things them if you can else leave them. this is absolutely hammering at them. so they won't know. and of course it's going to come out just before the coronation , which i think is coronation, which i think is shocking i think people to be honest, i think a lot of people have ordered i don't think it will do very well at all. i think we've had enough. well, i think we've had enough. well, i think people bought the first one and a lot of them did because they were curious rather than enjoy it, than they wanted to enjoy it, they couldn't believe their eyes. is what was in eyes. so there is what was in there. i think you're right. but that doesn't because it's still nasty. tarnishing the royal nasty. it tarnishing the royal family time when we family at a time when we actually be grateful for actually should be grateful for them very to have them. i'm very pleased to have heard this afternoon just before i came in that and i came in that hundreds and hundreds of people have applied to do good works on the third day. oh it's lovely. and i think that only just come out the request if anyone would like to they should apply and that means there lot of publicity there is a lot of publicity because lot of it is because what read a lot of it is very negative and it's very him and we've got meghan's book,

we've got harry's book i think we've got harry's book i think we've had enough you know andrew's friend. yes. we were talking as well . you know, it's talking as well. you know, it's going to be very hard instead of just looking forward to it exactly . it's just awful sort exactly. it's just awful sort mess that it's not nice. it's not fair because not really excuse is this coronation doesn't happen often it should be in 1953. well happened a bit quicker than all those i fair but it's something that we can all be of as a nation it's not just about . this is for the just about. this is for the nation. yeah and i think it's a real shame . yeah. he's he's real shame. yeah. he's he's really sort of ruining the run up it and he's not allowing his father to enjoy it. but then, of course, somebody else is sort of probably ruining the run up, as was prince andrew. yes, he he's. well, prince andrew mean, i don't anybody who's the don't know anybody who's the least worse least good judgement worse judgement . i mean judgement than him. i mean he should never have been friends with epstein , he should never with epstein, he should never have gone on with emily on panorama. that was terrible he

should never have actually paid off if he felt that that , that, off if he felt that that, that, that really didn't happen . and that really didn't happen. and now he's trying to say he wants to he's got now he's trying to say he wants to he's go t £10 million where he to he's got £10 million where he gets that i don't know because he's always complaining he's broke that he's got he's always complaining he's broke that he's go t £10 million broke that he's got £10 million to try and stop, undo it, make it all. okay. meanwhile, she's writing about this sort of terrible , terrible mess. is that terrible, terrible mess. is that andrew and charles have never got on never from the start because he was another spare and at that time he was number two and he didn't like it and. i know he tried this in that to try and get the queen to not to use charles because he he wasn't all the things that she didn't quite like about charles then, which she grew to admire. he, he was on, you know , that's the was on, you know, that's the reason why she shouldn't have . i reason why she shouldn't have. i thought she was the queen's favourite wasn't he? he was exactly . i tell you why. because

exactly. i tell you why. because they had two children quite quickly, charles and anne, and then a prince philip got fed up with not having enough stimulating work. he was he was also a spare, really. and so he went off for six months and there was a doubt how they were getting on. and they came back and she got pregnant with andrew and she got pregnant with andrew and that really brought them together . after that time, he together. after that time, he was absolutely 100% for her. so that's why i think that he her favourite because he united them together went to a struggling to find something that would make him feel that he was really needed because he was very, very bright in the navy. you shut up and he came and he walked behind. that wasn't but he wasn't doing enough. and then she found lots of things that that would please him seems to be a difficult role being spare. but it it just seems but in actual fact for anybody looking into it were looking at it

thinking you've actually got a pretty cushy number that you don't have any of the pressure, but you've all the benefits. but you've got all the benefits. but me it's the best role. but to me it's the best role. use your second, but get use your second, but you get everything pressure. everything but not the pressure. the only thing would enjoy it. that's what prince diana to that's what prince diana said to harry it was very harry many times. it was very important her she felt important to her that she felt that he wasn't just a spare and they weren't going to use his kidneys and his lung. oh, that was, you know, a definitely. did but you said you will have much freedom and he doesn't . and freedom and he doesn't. and actually you can look at them if you are a member of the royal family, you get a chance to go anywhere . people will always see anywhere. people will always see you. you know, he can see that with the books , tv shows , all with the books, tv shows, all that sort of thing because he is a member of the royal family. so although you might have the main of range, you can actually sort of range, you can actually sort of have a good life with all the things that you could do . you're things that you could do. you're not going to be front and centre of everything, but these have made themselves that way. i

mean, meghan and, harry's done that, wouldn't have to that, but you wouldn't have to be and centre, but you can be front and centre, but you can take benefits but then take all the benefits but then shimmy into the corner and shimmy away into the corner and have your freedoms because you don't be so there's don't to be so there's less pressure to sort. that's pressure on you to sort. that's right. an advantage right. that's an advantage resentment really very resentment palace really very very well we'll keep our very sad. well we'll keep our eyes open for spats about me. there's two more of those stars that are coming. and very briefly, you did mention, you know, stuff about prisons. you go about 30 seconds, actually, a lot prisons. i was lot about prisons. i was a inspector scrubs for ten years. you said i was it was my husband it was my hobby at weekends , i it was my hobby at weekends, i had to interview all the prisoners and help them if they had a problem , they would put had a problem, they would put something in an envelope. i had 23 helpers and i could work out ones who were rapists, but not the murderers and really interesting, but i could see what the a lot of the prisoners i would say more than 70% are

mentally unwell. well, let's you get into that one. you can't help. thank you, andrew. 11 or should we say angela lansbury two. well very good. thank you very much for joining two. well very good. thank you very much forjoining us has the very much for joining us has the fabulous angela levin this is a gb news more to come in the next hour. houn it is 5:00. this is gb news where live on tv online and on digital radio for the next hour . and my panel will be taking on some of these big topics, hitting the right now. coming up , be joined by lady victoria. how the live in the studio now she was once in a relationship with andrew so give us her on that infamous photo and in the great british debate this hour, i'll be asking with a transgender woman should go to an all female prison and my many debates of discussing should the conservatives bring back for us to win next election. but first, let's get your latest news

headunes. let's get your latest news headlines . coming up to 5:01. headlines. coming up to 5:01. i'm radisson in, the gb newsroom 276 flybe staff been made redundant with the going into administration for second time in three years around . 75,000 in three years around. 75,000 holidaymakers have had their bookings cancelled. the uk civil aviation authority is urging flybe customers not to travel to airports to fly be returned to the last april after collapsing in 2020. it was operating flights to 17 destinations travellers say they're disappointed to see flights cancelled . i looked on my emails cancelled. i looked on my emails and then i saw big bold letters. your flight is cancelled and my first thought was this has got be a prank surely because it's the day of the flight last night i was able to piss off you know

the boarding pass it say anything about you know we're going to administration they even said when i was doing it all joining a booking bag thank god i never is you know i'd be owing them that a murder investigation has been launched after a 15 year old girl was fatally stabbed in hexham. a 16 year old is also hospital after suffering serious but not life threatening injuries. both northumbria police say , follows northumbria police say, follows a suspected assault . another 16 a suspected assault. another 16 year old boy has been arrested and remains in custody . sir keir and remains in custody. sir keir starmer says . labour has starmer says. labour has reformed under leadership. addressing the london labour conference, he told members they must show voters the party is different to the one britain rejected. now the 2019 general election. he also promised to put the country first and warned party members complacency . party members complacency. britain is crying out for change, crying out for decisive leadership and we must it prove

that we can be a bold, reforming government show, not what the tories have done to britain , but tories have done to britain, but the british that labour build a fairer , a more dynamic country fairer, a more dynamic country with the economy that works for everyone not just those at the top and the politics which trust with the power to control own destiny . former minister peter destiny. former minister peter mandelson says must stay focussed on the next election . focussed on the next election. the biggest risk is that we, the next elections in the bag that we relax, we take it for granted . no, no, no . we have to . no, no, no. we have to maintain our absolute focus on voters , particularly those voters, particularly those voters, particularly those voters who have yet to be convinced that labour does offer a credible united, progressive alternative for our country . the alternative for our country. the head of the rmt union says , its head of the rmt union says, its members will decide by the of february whether to accept at

the latest and final offer from the latest and final offer from the rail delivery group . mick the rail delivery group. mick lynch says discussions will be held with members across the country the next ten days. but he told gb news the terms not great and he doesn't feel . we've great and he doesn't feel. we've got is a really poor offer to offer is below less than half of the rate inflation these two years. inflation is running over 20 to 23% in the retail price index. this is 9% over two years and we had no offer three years before that. so this people are getting poorer and at the same time their conditions and their working lives have been trampled oven working lives have been trampled over. so i'm quite suspicious about what's going on and i don't know if our members would be to accept it in international news , body cam footage has news, body cam footage has released in the united states police in memphis beating a black man who died three days later. now warning some people may find following video

distressing . hillary. mom may find following video distressing . hillary . mom hey, distressing. hillary. mom hey, you have 29 year old tyree nichols was kicked punched and, pepper sprayed as he cried out for his mother. five black officers have been sacked . officers have been sacked. they're now facing murder charges . president joe biden charges. president joe biden says , he's outraged and has says, he's outraged and has called an end to police misconduct . the former misconduct. the former conservative party chair says a number of members feel they were denied a vote on. rishi sunak becoming prime minister in an interview with gb news, jake berry said mr. should have held an endorsement vote during the leadership contest to show he had the support of the membership. i think even though he upset he got the majority of the conservative members parliament and now i support him as prime minister he does. there is a challenge he has is even if

it's not true, there's a perception of the conservative parliamentary now being disconnected from our membership because . we didn't have that. because. we didn't have that. even if it was a sort of endorsement vote . and you can endorsement vote. and you can see that interview with sir jake on gloria meets tomorrow on gb news at 6 pm. now tributes have been flooding in for clare drake , the wife of welsh first minister mark drakeford , who minister mark drakeford, who died suddenly this afternoon . died suddenly this afternoon. downing street says the prime minister privately passed on his deepest . labour leader sir keir deepest. labour leader sir keir starmer has issued a statement saying mark drakeford family would be in his thoughts and, his prayers . you're watching and his prayers. you're watching and listening gb news we'll bring you more as it. now let's get straight back to nina .

straight back to nina. good afternoon. this is gb news on tv, online and on digital . on tv, online and on digital. i'm nana akua. now for the next houn i'm nana akua. now for the next hour. me and my panel, we'll be taking on of the big topics that are hitting the headlines right now. this show is all about opinion, smuggling, affairs, and of yours. be of course, yours. we'll be debating, discussing at times we will disagree, but no will be cancelled . so joining me today cancelled. so joining me today is broadcasting columnist lizzie cundy and broadcast from political commentator sam dowler . also to come, my difficult today is with lady victoria harvey now lady victoria hope it was once in a relationship with prince andrew. i'll be speaking to her very shortly to discuss that and that notorious photograph of the prince with victoria grey and lots more emerging. your thoughts on gb views achieved his .uk. or tweet me at . gb news. so it's just me at. gb news. so it's just coming up to 8 minutes after 5:00. it's now time for this week's difficult conversation.

litvinenko frey claimed that prince andrew sexually assaulted her on three occasions when she was 17, then a photograph surfaced of the two of them together. a case filed against him. but there wasn't settlement for an undisclosed . some girls for an undisclosed. some girls and it denies all allegations him and says that he has no recollection of ever meeting virginia giuffre. she, however they did meet on photograph of them together is genuine lady victoria harvey was once in a relationship with prince andrew and she has stated in the past that the photo of him with virginia isn't real and. lady victoria joins me now . hello. victoria joins me now. hello. thank you so much for joining victoria joins me now. hello. thank you so much forjoining . thank you so much for joining. good to see you. good to see you. well, let's start with just very briefly. how did you meet prince andrew? because you analysed it together. i mean, it really a relationship . oh, we're really a relationship. oh, we're just friends, really. let's see. so if we can start talking about the photo. right. well well, let's get let's cut to the

chase. let's get straight to it. what do know about this photograph? so i started digging into this story and almost a year ago now, actually and so what i know about this photo is i'm in contact with the person that i i'm in contact with the person thati do i'm in contact with the person that i do believe is the true person that actually took these pictures. and he also explained to me he copped with a razorblade. the heads change the heads epstein was in original picture and that was changed put prince head in that place . so prince head in that place. so you're saying that this person did something with this photo, this photograph, this photographer ? he was sort lured photographer? he was sort lured in by epstein . he was an artist in by epstein. he was an artist . and he was of well, persuaded to. he didn't actually. he he told me that he really did. had noidea told me that he really did. had no idea that this is what they

planning to do with it. well, why why is this is what you're saying is why is it that he told you this and he said, well, he he reached out to me originally like i've i've met i've met up with him been in contact with him march last year, right him since march last year, right after subtle agreement was after the subtle agreement was was was done . so unfortunately, was was done. so unfortunately, the timing wasn't great. but he reached out to me because he saw me writing on my instagram obviously i was being quite pubuc obviously i was being quite public beginning of february about it and. you know, he trusted me because i've been very i haven't given too much information about him. obviously, i want to keep him protect it. he does a criminal past which . he was worried about past which. he was worried about that. he would somehow be implicated into and could go back to jail . so that is another back to jail. so that is another reason why we have taken our time with this. and had to divorce, met him and you know, he he seems like the real the

deal he he seems like the real the deal. what i'm a nosy gibney's this is your view is understandable this is your view and this is what you're saying has happened now has prince andrew ever spoken to you about photograph at . all you know, photograph at. all you know, since the agreement and it hasn't been we haven't allowed to talk to him really about this so virginia before his claim this this is the actual genuine picture so what are you actually saying? that she's a liar? i'm saying? that she's a liar? i'm saying she's a liar. yeah, i'm saying she's a liar. yeah, i'm saying she's a liar. yeah, i'm saying she's a liar and she better start packing her bags for jail. well i mean, because forjail. well i mean, because even prince andrew hasn't called virginia giuffre a liar and fact, he said, i have no recollection of ever meeting. so he's not actually said he hasn't, but he has no recollection . i think that was recollection. i think that was just a polite way to she just a polite way to it. so she wouldn't come after him like she did with dershowitz . you know, did with dershowitz. you know, but yeah, she's clearly a liar and she's got caught out and.

her time's up. well, of course, dershowitz was was the lawyer was needed. these didn't he represented like people like that can she claims that she had some sort of association. she said that during how many times that she said that she had said, i can't remember. it was she's claimed since at least six or seven times she to have sex with him and she remembered every single place . and then, of single place. and then, of course, later on, you know, she went into massive detail just she did with prince andrew like enormous detail, which i'm sorry , 20 something years ago . you , 20 something years ago. you know, you're not going to remember much, especially she admits that she was on a lot of sleeping pills, a lot of drugs . sleeping pills, a lot of drugs. her memory was very hazy. she talks about that himself , you talks about that himself, you know, in her supposed memoir, which we have to remember, no publisher picked that up . they publisher picked that up. they knew that this girl is , not a knew that this girl is, not a credible witness, she was chosen by the us government to

represent in that case, she was the vocal person . she the most the vocal person. she the most vocal victim of killings yet she was not in that courtroom . why was not in that courtroom. why is that? you know, alan dershowitz explained that know, she was not a credible witness . she was not a credible witness. well, of course, in the end, she then claimed that she may have made a mistake , so she retracted made a mistake, so she retracted that possibly. one of the reasons why prince andrew feels so. think it's time she so. yeah, i think it's time she actually comes clean . i think actually comes clean. i think it's actually comes clean. i think wsfime actually comes clean. i think it's time that, you know , this it's time that, you know, this little opera of hers done. little soap opera of hers done. it's finished . and she comes and it's finished. and she comes and then she actually admits that she lied about everything . well, she lied about everything. well, of course. i mean, this is your opinion, gb news. that's your opinion. but this morning in the telegraph , there was a photo of telegraph, there was a photo of people in the bath because one of the descriptions of where the sex noises really happened was in the bathroom, she said in the bath or whatever. and there's two people i think one of them is caroline's brother or something. got the bath something. they got in the bath to how small the was. and to how small the room was. and in describes what in her book she describes what happened the it

happened and the space. it doesn't . it's not. yeah i know doesn't. it's not. yeah i know i actually wrote about that on my instagram while ago on my story you know she writes she described it as this, you know, big bath tub in the middle of the room , from the plans, from the room, from the plans, from architect, from the plumbing . architect, from the plumbing. they can tell you like that bath tub has always been in the same position. you know , she says is position. you know, she says is , i believe, to be a lying like i don't actually i haven't found like anything that i've read about her that actually been truthful about so it's interesting this is all sort of coming you know as prince andrew is set to launch legal action against victoria because of that, the main thing is like he was forced to settle. he didn't want settle. i mean, all of this would come out like a year ago, but unfortunately the jubilee came out of buckingham palace, made settle . but you know made him settle. but you know that the timing of it like finding the person it the photos that was like you 11 what ten months ago. right but do you

that if you were completely innocent that you just simply wouldn't settle so the thing is right in america tonnes of people settle all the time are innocent. like it happens the time. so a civil case it's all about money it. that's it. it's not about it's not a criminal case. and this was the problem. what happened ? prince andrew, what happened? prince andrew, she had the wrong lawyers for what his case was. he had criminal for a civil case. so they prepared him for criminal off to court. what do and that was the wrong advice. if you think, because i mean, look, he could have had any lawyers knowing why he would pick the wrong if that if that is true. and then to say that the reason got the wrong lawyers some advice the right advice advice was not the right advice for what he was doing his a civil case a civil case doesn't they don't go to jail like people that write in the newspapers. oh he he you know he should be so lucky didn't go should be so lucky he didn't go to jail. a civil case is only about money virginia was only about money virginia was only about very clear from about money was very clear from

what that she has. what we don't know that she has. that what case that is. that is what a case that is. what the case? it that money what is the case? it that money did but but in in in america she up a charity wait one second in america it happens all the time you you know innocent men end up paying you you know innocent men end up paying off these girls because they don't want it to affect their career. they want to just go away. well, i mean, i can understand why somebody may potentially pay off. potentially pay someone off. however you never however that you have never accepted any liability for anything . he never offered it. anything. he never offered it. but ultimately he did pay settlement. so some people will look that and think, well, why would that? i think would he do that? and i think the question is why, if the question is why, i think if theyif the question is why, i think if they if they just and realise, like he didn't want to , you like he didn't want to, you know, he was made and he hasn't been able talk about it for been able to talk about it for the past year. right like so he's had to be tight. no one has been able to be vocal on his side about it, you know, so and when and you haven't been in contact with him. i can't say who. i've been in contact , you who. i've been in contact, you know. oh, this this point right now. well, listen, lady

victoria, it's really interesting stuff . i mean, you interesting stuff. i mean, you know, it'll be interesting to see it transpires and really for you coming to talk to me about it, the problem that is, of course, lady victoria hervey, she's a socialite , an she's a socialite, an aristocrat. i can't say that this is good news. now, we have been contacted and we have contacts sorry that you need to face lewis for comment. we haven't received a response previously, though, ghafoor has said interview with said in an interview with the bbc panorama that she bbc on panorama that she submitted original submitted the original photograph fbi as evidence to photograph to fbi as evidence to support her claims. she's maintained that real image maintained that the real image that that that is the real image. and she said i think the world is getting sick of ridiculous excuses it's a real photo. i'm giving it to the fbi for their investigation and it's an offence photo. there's a date , the back of it when it was printed and coming up, it's the great british debate hour. and i'm asking, should a trans woman go to an all female prison ? go to an all female prison? scotland's first minister, nicholas sturgeon has stated that lena bryson , a transgender that lena bryson, a transgender woman, will not be incarcerated

in a women's prison. woman, will not be incarcerated in a women's prison . however, in a women's prison. however, after mounting pressure from feminists who are concerned with the implication, trans the possible implication, trans women in all female prisons, nicholas has had to nicholas sturgeon has had to make embarrassing on make a embarrassing u—turn on that decision all that that decision. all that after this .

hello. good afternoon . this is a hello. good afternoon. this is a gb news on tv online and a digital video is just coming up to 1 minutes after 5:00. don't forget you can download the gb news app, you can check out all the programmes on the channel, but it is now time our great british debate this hour and i'm asking should a trans woman go to an female prison. now to an all female prison. now scotland's minister, scotland's first minister, nicholas stated that nicholas sturgeon, stated that either a transgender either bryson, a transgender woman will be incarcerated woman will not be incarcerated and woman's prison. now abortion has been found guilty of raping two women, one in 2016 and

another in 2019. and at this , another in 2019. and at this, she did not identify as a woman and went by name of adam graham. now, following the initial conviction, bryson was remanded to court and they'll a female prison. but after pressure from westminster parliament, british government and feminists who are concerned with the possible implications trans women in all female prisons and the snp's wider gender recognition reform bill. nicholas sturgeon made a on the decision. so this identity politics getting in the way of justice for the great british debate this . i'm asking british debate this. i'm asking should a trans woman get an all female prison? i'm joined now by family lawyer fillmore and family lawyer sara fillmore and also by robin moore, a also joined by robin moore, a white. there's trans white. there's a trans discrimination barrister identifies as woman. thank so identifies as a woman. thank so much to both of you forjoining much to both of you for joining me. it's really good to talk to you. going to start with you. so i'm going to start with you, robin. you for you, robin. thank you very for coming i appreciate you coming on. i appreciate you coming on. i appreciate you coming i saw on on the coming because i saw on on the other side, i thought she's to come my program. pleased to come on my program. pleased to be your thoughts be here. what are your thoughts on whole whole, the on this whole on the whole, the story itself ? where do sit story itself? where do you sit

with it? can i first say with it? yeah. can i first say that i completely support the decision that the scottish pfison decision that the scottish prison service made in respect of gardner . however we of bryson gardner. however we want to refer to them . yeah and want to refer to them. yeah and i'm going to use them by them pronouns for bryson gardner i think in fact there's been a piece of there was some reporting this afternoon from their wife that says that their identification is not genuine. so i mean we don't sit and have the full facts that the sps scottish prison service have . scottish prison service have. but if that person is such a danger and has such little commitment to their gender, then i completely with the decision that the scottish prison have come to on on the little material that we have available to ourselves . but i've asked to ourselves. but i've asked youri to ourselves. but i've asked your i asked studio manager to find a picture of a lady called vicki tom thompson from 2015. i don't know if that can be put

up. what did we find a picture of vicki thompson. i'm i'm where we where that starts from . is we where that starts from. is that back in 2015, 2016, they were for. yeah there's vicki thompson. there were four suicides by trans in who were being held mainly state. now completely different end of the spectrum from the people that we've been talking about in the last 24 hours very sad story with vicki. she a troubled child she identified as female from seven or eight and at 21 she found herself in armley prison because she breached bail conditions related to a shoplifting offence that she had found herself in a male prison was subject to a series of nasty sexual assaults rapes and was one of those her a and latham the same year and the following year there were swift and cope

and that's what prompted prison service to move away from a very rigid if you've got a grc you can be in the prison you want to be in if you have you can't and move to a risk assessment basis . so whilst i completely agree with the position that's been with the position that's been with bryson and i, i'm not actually sure it's a u—turn by nicholas sturgeon it's been characterised such, but i don't actually think she ever said anything other than the sps will decide decide the position i adoptis decide decide the position i adopt is that we have to come to an arrangement that copes with vulnerable people like vicki thomson. yeah sarah. yes. thank you for having me. before i. i also need to be clear , my use of also need to be clear, my use of pronouns , because i think if i'm pronouns, because i think if i'm ianed pronouns, because i think if i'm invited specifically for debate about sex and gender, i'm not going to any more check myself. i'm going to use the pronoun i think it's appropriate to the sex of the person i'm discussing. and i call these men by their male names. sorry, adam

graham is who we've just been discussing, but there's also andrew burns, now known as tiffany . and i'm very interested tiffany. and i'm very interested in robyn's proposal to use they them pronouns , their commitment them pronouns, their commitment to their gender might not be sincere because that really underscores who's exactly the problem doesn't . how what it problem doesn't. how what it about adam graham and andrew burns that means they're not women. because we've been for years. all you have to do is say i'm woman i feel like a woman , i'm woman i feel like a woman, whatever that means. i'll wear some in a skirt. i'm a woman. whatever that means. i'll wear some in a skirt. i'm a woman . so some in a skirt. i'm a woman. so what is it? what is the test? i ask this. the last time i spoke with robyn and think that's really interesting. what now being told is those who rape. i mean, andrew , i read had to be mean, andrew, i read had to be subdued by 11 security guards in 2017, ripped his own veins with his teeth and is now calling himself scott and seeking

admission to the female prison estate. so if isn't a woman why not. and is what women would like to know what is the test for the genuine trans person who simply seeks to leave ? what simply seeks to leave? what means must be a terrible psychological burden and feeling that. psychological burden and feeling that . you're born in the wrong that. you're born in the wrong body. what's the test between those trans people? adam grey and andrew burns . it's good that and andrew burns. it's good that we're having these discussions because i think that we have drilled down almost immediately to that fundamental issue. how are we determining how far to self—identification go? would you then think that perhaps because this grey area and then it depends on who's assessing person and what they might think is a woman and that there's too many variables. would you say then that should be incarcerated if they committed a crime and it is worthy , a prison sentence is worthy, a prison sentence that they should be incarcerated in the prison of the gender and they are transgender, then there

should perhaps wink for those should perhaps a wink for those who transgender. who are transgender. would so would i'd say as a would you go that? i'd say as a society we're judged how we society we're judged on how we treat most vulnerable. i'm treat the most vulnerable. i'm not moment that not for a moment saying that women should be housed in women should just be housed in the state, because the male prison state, because i'm who have i'm sure for some who have effectively transitioned quite far , that puts them in a very far, that puts them in a very risky position. but you see, women are then the buffer women are not then the buffer zone to these men . the problem zone to these men. the problem remains, as it is men. so i was listening to lots of people talk about this. i think one woman made the point the only way through this, she thought was to have separate facilities for trans men . and i trans identifying men. and i can't see any other way around because women are not the buffers zone to keep these men safe . other men, particularly safe. other men, particularly not when these themselves are incredibly violent , dangerous incredibly violent, dangerous and strong. i think both adam graham and andrew are in their early thirties , so they'll be at early thirties, so they'll be at the peak of their strength. and as i say, it took 11 men to hold andrew burns down. he cannot go anywhere near . andrew burns down. he cannot go anywhere near. female prisoners.

what would you say to that? well, i think we saw the sps make the right in a collective view. i don't think anyone disagrees . anyone who's speaking disagrees. anyone who's speaking to you this evening disagrees with the view that's been made . with the view that's been made. we don't have the full facts about tiffany scott straight. andrew burns . i certainly don't andrew burns. i certainly don't . the sps have that . it's their . the sps have that. it's their responsibility to make that risk assessment, not in exactly the same way that we've seen social. services, for example, have to take very decisions to do . they take very decisions to do. they leave children with potentially parents when the connection with the parents is said to be tremendously important . the tremendously important. the child that we rely on state agencies to make really tough judgements . now i picked vicky judgements. now i picked vicky thomson as what i think is a pretty clear case. but if form of offending is shoplifting you're unlikely to be a threat to the women around you in

prison but we always going to get to an area difficulty and that's why we need to support those officials who have to make those officials who have to make those really difficult. there are women who pose risks to other women , not necessarily in other women, not necessarily in terms of sexual, but certainly in terms of violence and within the various prison services within the uk . there are within the uk. there are officials making decisions about whether a woman, for example , is whether a woman, for example, is being held in a solitary circumstance or being allowed to associate with other women . and associate with other women. and we have support those officials and them. the very best help in making those decisions. but on the point that sarah made, what actually qualifies and quantifies as a woman and therefore , if there was that, therefore, if there was that, would you subscribe to an idea that there would be a separate wing or something for trans people within a person. would that not but would that not. instead of the woman being a buffer zone, is what sarah buffer zone, which is what sarah

was and i, was saying. yeah. and i, i absolutely . point the absolutely. the point about the buffer zone , i'm using other buffer zone, i'm using other inmates as human shields or whatever is, is not the right thing to do . but the moment we thing to do. but the moment we start it. we take a little group and separate them off from the rest of society. we've seen where that goes historically . i where that goes historically. i knew a apartheid south africa very well and the moment we start to do that. it's a very slippery for the anc into the safety and then we focus on the wrongdoers not take a whole group plonked them off somewhere else. so what if we got a problem? well have absolutely no problem? well have absolutely no problem with segregating sex offenders. i don't think that's remotely comparable to apartheid. robyn mentions that we've got to trust state agencies to make the right decisions being brought in. the family i can speak some family courts. i can speak some authority about the state makes some decisions some very serious decisions about families , it also about families, but it is also open to scrutiny and the judgements are published and there system all

there an appellate system all information that we've been able to get about the scottish prison system has had to be basically blood from stone, been blood from a stone, all been freedom information requests freedom of information requests . willingly . they will not willingly pubush . they will not willingly publish information . because publish information. because they this whole about they know that this whole about gender is crumble . men gender identity is crumble. men are the problem . they commit 98% are the problem. they commit 98% of offences. yes, there of sexual offences. yes, there are some dangerous women, so few of them. we could probably them on the fingers of one hand. myra hindley west. there are hindley rose west. there are thousands and thousands of men that we to and just that we need to worry and just because they they're a woman . because they they're a woman. what is the test? how are these men identified? what do they genuinely trans? and when are they not? and we're not given an answer to that because there is no answer. well, listen, thank you both for joining. no answer. well, listen, thank you both forjoining. robyn moore white and also sarah fennimore. thank you very much for joining me. well scottish pfison for joining me. well scottish prison service spokesperson said decisions by sps ousted most decisions by the sps ousted most appropriate location to accommodate transgender people are individualised are made on an individualised basis, informed a multi—tier basis, informed by a multi—tier assessment of both and need.

such decisions seek to protect the well—being rights of the individual as well as welfare and rights of others around them, including staff. in order to achieve an outcome. the balance is risks and the safety of all and is exactly what has happenedin of all and is exactly what has happened in this case. what is quick look at what you've been saying and says only which have fully transitioned . the nhs fully transitioned. the nhs should not fund these operations. steve says a male born person should should not go to an all prison. this is on the question as to whether a transgender woman should go a female prison. sam only biological women and gay adult human females should be allowed to use women's with other biological women . adult human biological women. adult human females. oh well, thank you very much for your thoughts, caitlin. coming in with me on this is gb views live on tv and views where live on tv and digital radio coming . we will digital radio coming. we will continue with this great british debate. i'm asking, should a trans woman be allowed to go to an all female prison? well, there's a sort of my panel broadcast and columnist lizzie cundy broadcaster , cundy of the broadcaster, political commentator sam dowler. latest

dowler. but okay, latest news headunes dowler. but okay, latest news headlines headlines. dowler. but okay, latest news headlines headlines . lex, 9 to headlines headlines. lex, 9 to 532 on ray addison in the gb newsroom 276 fly v staff have been made redundant. the airline going into administration the second time in three years, around 75,000 holidaymakers found bookings cancelled. the uk civil authority is urging not to travel to airports . the head of travel to airports. the head of the rmt union says its members will decide by the 8th of february whether to accept the latest and final offer . the rail latest and final offer. the rail delivery group . discussions will delivery group. discussions will be held with members the country over the next ten days. mick lynch told us earlier that the terms are really poor and he isn't optimist. terms are really poor and he isn't optimist . nick sir keir isn't optimist. nick sir keir starmer says has reformed under leadership. addressing the london labour conference, he told members they must show

voters the is different to the one that britain rejected at the 2019 general election. he also warned against complacency and told the audience that the fight against forms of hate and discrimination never stops . and discrimination never stops. and tributes are being paid to claire , the wife of welsh first claire, the wife of welsh first minister mark drakeford, who suddenly this afternoon. the prime minister is among those to pass his heartfelt condolences to mark drakeford and his family. the labour leader sir keir starmer and the prince and princess of wales said they too were sending their thoughts and prayers during difficult time on tv, online and on dab+ radio. this is gb news back to nanna and just a moment.

hello. good afternoon. this is a

gb news. it is fast approaching 7 minutes after 5:00. if you just joined us. welcome on board. i'm not a choir. we are live on tv online and on digital radio and it's time now for our great british debate this hour. i'm asking, should a trans woman to an all female prison ? now, to an all female prison? now, scotland's first minister, nicholas stated that nicholas sturgeon stated that angela bryson, a transgender woman will not be incarcerated in a women's prison. woman will not be incarcerated in a women's prison . now bryson in a women's prison. now bryson has been found guilty of raping two women once one in 2016 and another in 2017. and at this time, she was not identified as a trans woman and then went by the name of adam graham. now following the initial conviction, bryson was remanded to court in cornton , a female to court in cornton, a female prison. this decision was backed by justice secretary brown, but it was his since being u—turned by nicholas sturgeon so the great british debate i'm asking should a trans woman go to an all female prison? let's what my panel will make of that. i'm joined by political commentator sam downer and also broadcaster

and columnist lizzie cundy . it's and columnist lizzie cundy. it's only just me. i'm just me. me me. lizzie, what do you think. trans woman identifies as a woman may not have had it all done. whatever. i mean. but as a trans woman, you have. she should be going into women's jail. this is totally wrong. and it will never be allowed . i it will never be allowed. i mean, it really is. when he transitioned . but but the fact transitioned. but but the fact is, she did the crime as a man this was technically but in general there wasn't so this . general there wasn't so this. yes, absolutely. i mean, i could told you that anyway . and if, in told you that anyway. and if, in fact, they were held in a female prison to begin with and then then the decision was given. so that to is already ridiculous. it's clear. i don't how anyone would even allow that to see with him being a rapist afraid i'm going to see him because he's just just did it to try to get out of it. that's what it is says anyway. in any case, she's saying he's never, ever

saying that he's never, ever mentioned that mentioned anything like that at all. sarah said, if all. but so as sarah said, if you listen to sarah, who was here earlier, she said, what is the barometer measure? whether you are a woman or not? well, that's it. so should she have an actual rule ? says if you are not actual rule? says if you are not violent , biologically female, violent, biologically female, you going to a man's prison is segregated. that's what the. that's right. if you are born a man and you can't take that away , when you check the bones , , when you you check the bones, it's a man, bones . it's the dna. it's a man, bones. it's the dna. and on side. that is the way it is. yeah, but what they're saying, it's like if fully transitioned bottom half, top half, everything like there is, there is when there is no dangen there is when there is no danger. obviously the obviously the obvious is pre—taped yet. but how how strength would that for strength? the strength to do what you're but the stronger a man much stronger than a woman. yes, it may, but is this is someone who's fully transitioned . yes. like they surely, surely mean like they wouldn't be in far danger being obscene in the man's prison if not the women that while we claim about that

person's danger. what about danger of the women in the because on what what they because it on what what they crime i think it crime is surely i think it should on a case by case should be done on a case by case bafis should be done on a case by case basis whether the like risk assessment that of assessment and that sort of thing. change you thing. does it change when you look you're i'm afraid if look you're born? i'm afraid if you're born, man. if you you're born, man. yes. if you want to. if you use friends, want to. as if you use friends, you are stronger. you are stronger. and it's still a woman can you have can feel vulnerable. you have the of man still the strength of man still doesn't go away, but if you were in there for tax evasion, for goodness , taxi evasion, whatever goodness, taxi evasion, whatever it is, doesn't your heart you keep you know about. well, you know basically if you're in there for tax evasion or something else or something like that, then not, you know, that, then you're not, you know, no to the female. you no risk to the other female. you could say, look, so did you could just say, look, so did you ever watch prison? yes, did. ever watch prison? yes, i did. one called lizzie, the one was called lizzie, by the way . the set kept moving. it was way. the set kept moving. it was funny. i was like, just me. say, you can get out of the prison quite easily. sort real prison , quite easily. sort real prison, enjoy the show . the point is enjoy the show. the point is that there was a top dog and that there was a top dog and that was beat and she was in charge of everything and she was a strong woman, you know,

listen, if you see a man going to the as a trans woman biologically or a woman a man, but you're a trans woman. you've gonein but you're a trans woman. you've gone in there, you still have that strength. and you could end up being dog or it is, you up being top dog or it is, you know what i mean? and i'm saying your strength is a big advantage in it's so the in prison and it's not so the old prison cell block argument. yeah but also there's the oranges. there's the oranges, there's the orange with reality there's the orange with reality there's the orange is the new black argument as well with laverne cox was in the prison as an as an actress. obviously any way she was she did the hair and stuff like i mean, this is not it's not fair to basically take take a trans even like take a trans woman even like especially they've had especially if they've had everything they risk everything and they no risk at all put them in a set. but all to put them in a set. but when when when they when they when they when they when they when they when they when are a woman and they when they are a woman and they feel shouldn't they feel like they shouldn't they should should should they should not they should they should not they should pop general should be in pop in general population, women feeling uncomfortable. does it matter? does how women does that not matter how women feel? no paying feel? why is no one paying attention thought attention to how i thought wanted more difficult for wanted to be more difficult for everybody? before everybody? what you said before i these women

i said, well, if these women have done the crime, then surely they should there with trans they should in there with trans women well. stupid women as well. stupid treated with understanding . with care and understanding. yes, everybody else. but maybe the have separate path the trans have a separate path to being prison because some women are to feel uncomfortable. sam, whether like it or not. but as a woman, as a i do as a woman, as a woman, i do what i mean a changing room or the toilets. i don't want to share it. i'm sorry. a friend of a friend of mine went to him. a friend of mine was telling me about how his brother randomly up prison for up going to prison for not having right car insurance . having the right car insurance. and he said it was he had such a terrible first of all, he had to be kept away all the other be kept away from all the other prisoners like could prisoners because like you could never etc. never done another crime, etc. and like a risk of and he was like a risk of getting beaten up. however because he had such a terrible time, they changed entire life. he for three he was only there for three months. his entire life. he months. he his entire life. he didn't drugs that . didn't do any drugs after that. and and it's like and it's like and it's like thing this scenario, it's thing in this scenario, it's keep vulnerable people away keep keep vulnerable people away from the rest of the population within the trans that's sort of saying that then saying we're saying that then but perhaps that needs to be a

trans wing and then you've got and i think if you also a trans biologically or amanda trans wouldn't be in a male . exactly. wouldn't be in a male. exactly. so you what you're what saying is if someone is more if they are stronger. for example, they might rise to the top and be the queen, even if it's in the final point, our woman feels and she wants. why is that being just disregarded. and if we say anything or speak out, you intimidated. we talk about freedom we talk about prison and they might not want to be in you . she's been put into jail. yes but that you know, she want to be with a trans woman , which, as be with a trans woman, which, as i said, it should be kind of by case by case basis of risk assessment and is, assessment and saying is, wouldn't get rid anybody wouldn't it just get rid anybody trying advantage of the trying to take advantage of the or anything like that and it would this sort of thing. would stop this sort of thing. this now by having this just happened now by having if are but you if you are a man but you identify as a trans woman there will wing in a male prison. will be a wing in a male prison. you for in a male you will for trans in a male prison because you are biologically a man. so i'm saying. but that men are saying. but know that men are the that transfer will the predators that transfer will be more at from the

be far more at risk from the other prisoners . that would other male prisoners. that would be whether he's buried his bones . it would stop thinking about digging up the bones. a i'm afraid that is fact. i'm not saying it's them. and of course we're not saying that trans people know no, that was exactly the point of this conversation , the point of this conversation, is that if somebody is in prison and they identify as a trans, should they share that space with women? and i'm saying no, they shouldn't, because ultimately that biology is male, which means the physiology, the anatomy of change. but the physiology is still that the mind saying it was me. i'm saying risk which i think that they do now as in is this is this is this person at risk? i mean, obviously, if it's like this person like, you know, obviously if they were then if you ask, please hold me you were to ask, please hold me because . you just thought it was because. you just thought it was obvious. you still love obvious. but you still love women's you. women's rights without you. let's of great let's welcome some of our great british voters, opportunity british voters, your opportunity to this show what to be on this show and tell what you think the topics when you think about the topics when discussing got four today. discussing i've got four today. let's start with miranda richardson from

northamptonshire. leaver northamptonshire. not leaver andrew where got andrew richardson, where got miranda that looks like a news she's she's she's on the safe in gb views but she's in windsor and that's not because unless safe around is returned . let's safe around is returned. let's see let's go there you are brave you'll see if suddenly superimpose , said miranda, i superimpose, said miranda, i have to talk. what you think should a trans woman be in a person with women ? first up, person with women? first up, we're talking about them being in prison? they've committed the crime. first up, why are we making it and soft? and i don't care who are or what you are. you committed a crime. there we go. you're the expert. and i think when we talk , nanny, you think when we talk, nanny, you said about having the wings for the transgender and the prison. let's face it , what you find the let's face it, what you find the majority of sex offenders in male prisons . if we're going to male prisons. if we're going to say sex offenders , most of those say sex offenders, most of those are actually put in wing anyway because they kept from general park as it is. so that's too

because i put with the rapist the other sex offenders . so the other sex offenders. so you're going to get that anyway. so we can just have and i think you've got an element of . yes. you've got an element of. yes. having the risk factor and risk assessment which actually let's give some of the prisons the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing. it's not their first rodeo. they have got lots prisoners and they know how to work that out. so yeah, you've have a bit of you've got to have a bit of common sense in there as well. but ultimately they're not there because. it's butlin's that because. it's butlin's in that picture a weekend picture in a weekend they're there because they've committed a goodness of what a crime. bring goodness of what it regardless of what it is exactly regardless of what it is exactly regardless of what it not all trans it is and exactly not all trans people sex offenders. that's people are sex offenders. that's not the point. all exactly it depends your gender as to depends on your gender as to which prison you should be in. let's to webb your let's go to lee webb or your biological what do biological sex leigh. what do you in bedford? i'm you think you're in bedford? i'm basically if you a biological male or biological female, you should be going to the prison where biological mouths go. where of a biological mouths go. so if you're a trans female, you should be going to a male prison, the whole point of

prison, the whole point of prison is that you lose some of your so whether you feel a female male, then should be female is a male, then should be discounted. there are population wings in. a lot of the prisons now , so perhaps we should set up now, so perhaps we should set up prison where they can deal with women in a male prison environment. but yeah, you shouldn't be having choice. the whole point of having punishment in a prison is you have all your rights taken away . all right. rights taken away. all right. thank you for that, leigh. let's go to jonathan james. he's there in cornwall. jonathan joins chintan is really complicated subject . no, no, i chintan is really complicated subject. no, no, i didn't chintan is really complicated subject . no, no, i didn't really subject. no, no, i didn't really have you because what happens if they then classify themselves so they then classify themselves so they can put it in as one gender and then change another? i don't have a view on that. so i think it's really what is it? w we can't hear you properly, so i'm going to go now to judy. we'll come back to in a minute. come back to you in a minute. judy you think. i think this judy do you think. i think this is debate to have and to be is such debate to have and to be honest you, i agree with honest with you, i agree with both of your panel so far. i agree with, lizzie. you know,

absolutely. females absolutely. the semi the females in prison don't necessarily want a trans woman in there because technically they are male, especially if they've been victims of sexual assault victims of a sexual assault themselves. i also agree themselves. but i also agree with i think it was just a moment ago if know if moment ago said if know if you've a crime, you're you've committed a crime, you're going holy going prison. it's not holy camp. absolutely isn't a holy camp. absolutely isn't a holy camp. and unfortunately , one of camp. and unfortunately, one of these is going to be your these things is going to be your rights away. i the key rights are taken away. i the key thing here is going to be about risks and it's the risk to everybody, the offender, but also female prisons. even now you have male prison officers . you have male prison officers. so they're not completely and utterly surrounded , all female. utterly surrounded, all female. so that needs to be taken into, too. yeah. interesting and come back. i'm coming back you back. i'm coming back to you jonathan you about 30 seconds you'll just add to that the nun is that what about cost to the taxpayer. so it's all very well us paying for the extra wings and things but i think we've got to think is costing the to think this is costing the taxpayer money what's taxpayer more money and what's to then identify as to stop someone then identify as the sex so just need the opposite sex so we just need to you know as the others to be you know as the others say, about going there

say, it's not about going there to a good time . yeah. so to have a good time. yeah. so i don't think it's probably that much fun in prison anyway . much fun in prison anyway. jonathan jones, thank you very much. there in duty in duty much. he's there in duty in duty in shefford leigh in bedford and also behind in northamptonshire. thank you so much for joining me. right. moving on to another story caught my today in the story caught my eye today in the latest update people's poll when asked who they would vote asked about who they would vote for next general for in the next general election, 50% said labour. oh, my gosh. well 1% say conservatives. it appears synnex popularity is declining amongst the general public whilst there are still rumblings about a political potential comeback for bofis political potential comeback for boris , so do the conservatives boris, so do the conservatives need to bring back boris to win the election ? let's start with the election? let's start with you, sam. so they bring back boris. you've got 30 seconds. hello? at all. hello? bring my boys at all. he's he's a millstone in he's he's he's a millstone in the tory party's neck and it's a moot point the labour are going to the next election because to win the next election because the tories have made such a huge mess up from to bottom mess up from top to bottom cronyism right and centre. cronyism left, right and centre. it's it's going to be an easy it's to it's going to be an easy win for labour actually you win for labour on actually you know what i'll be quite happy to

see boris because. what see boris back because. what rishi has he's put the rishi has done, he's put us the pals, political . we pals, the brave political. we don't know where we are we so liberal, you know. he doesn't know. there's like a cigarette between him and keir starmer and he's really . between him and keir starmer and he's really. he really is performance since he's been prime has been totally well he's vanished. i think ghosted the country i mean corporate people either and he's got brothers and these developments and stop preaching right act right. well listen it's time now for quickfire quizzes. the plots of the show test my panel on some of the other stories, the headunes of the other stories, the headlines right now . and also, headlines right now. and also, please play along at home. right. i'm joined now by broadcaster and political director. you can depress, please, , and also please, lizzie, and also political commentator sam dollar, buzzer . lovely man dollar, your buzzer. lovely man . are you ready at home, right. question one there have been surge in the sales of what item is it a haggis it b frozen peas or is it chocolate covered

scorpions haven't finished but i'll let you in goes i just thought chocolate that then i'm going to say haggis haggis what do you think i'm going to go for frozen peas high cost living cheap it's actually high. oh what noticeable he did press the buzzer before hand ball oh i'll let you off on this one. yes haggis has been on the forefront of the cuisine this week, due to some people purchasing using it for burns night. some people purchasing using it for burns night . yeah. did you for burns night. yeah. did you had haggis before ? yep. a few had haggis before? yep. a few times . absolutely horrific . times. absolutely horrific. never get a coupon then. next question , true or false, the question, true or false, the baby trump blimp has made a return week. true or false? true. i hope lizzie true. is true . i think it's true as well. true. i think it's true as well. it is true. it is true that plenty remember the trump reinflate adopted underwent testing at the museum london in preparation for its display . so preparation for its display. so what public figure do you think be a blimp? lizzie you should be a blimp . i be a blimp? lizzie you should be a blimp. i think.

be a blimp? lizzie you should be a blimp . i think. liz truss is a blimp. i think. liz truss is about you . so go . oh, you know, about you. so go. oh, you know, let's say i'm you and we look at all right. question which celebrity has handed back the eve recently is it a no ? is it eve recently is it a no? is it one maggie smith zippy idris elba or is it three at sea palin cummings , sam , it's alan cummings, sam, it's alan cummings. it is why is it done that ? because he doesn't he that? because he doesn't he feels that the toxic surrounding the british empire means he doesn't want to he doesn't want have it. so he's quite happy with his petrol car card is engine no the things in american lives in america what we discovered that a lot of use all the wonderful and what is it palestinian and all the things have been discovered by this country industrialisation that he's benefited from he should handle well. it's handle that back as well. it's scottish been given scottish actor has been given his the queen's birthday in his obe the queen's birthday in 2009, but has now handed back, citing monarchy's toxicity citing the monarchy's toxicity as the reason right question for

historical st mark's church was tragically destroyed by fire this week. but how old was the church places on twin festivals as 12. some other 1750. i'm going to say 1544. this is to be classic that that sees the answer is . 176 years old 1847. answer is. 176 years old 1847. right | answer is. 176 years old 1847. right i won't but guess you want to trip back to when she was born . oh, oh. by oh that square born. oh, oh. by oh that square will take it back. it was the 1900. oh well isn't said. it was built in 1847 and seven during world war, but unfortunately it was the father it out or whatever it was . question five whatever it was. question five your final question and investment fund has enacting a plan to reduce cow births by feeding them a certain plant . feeding them a certain plant. but what is it? is it a cabbage cacti? is it b or was it c,

seaweed lizzie, i'm going go. i don't know this one, but i'm going to go for i have a which is cacti what are you going see. seaweed said you'll just see it's seaweed. yes, that's right. was like that does it i don't know who wins but they'll work it out if the plant will be used in feed to help cows. digestibility so greenhouse gases produced by burps. so do you think seaweed would save the planet? yeah, i think most of us will. you don't know when will. you don't know like when i go for chinese, i'm going to do loads of seaweed. that's the amount . amount of cows, amount. amount of cows, obviously in the whole world like it's a mass is a massive problem. and the methane that they expel out their front on their back needs to be lifted . their back needs to be lifted. something something as something like something as simple in simple as putting seaweed in their save the their feed, save, save the planet. obviously, we're planet. then obviously, we're wanted to put actual masks . you wanted to put actual masks. you know, i was at an event the other and, you know, i'd been eating something eggy, so. oh, god, i let one go. and it's so funny. so if you're eating or anything , i funny. so if you're eating or anything, i don't go in. the

person was talking to, the two person i was talking to, the two of them, they just went, oh, it will come. and then i will come. and then and then i said, excuse me. i walked said, excuse me. and i walked around site. i thought, i'm around the site. i thought, i'm not give them this not going to give them this thing. will hear like you thing. you will hear like you like me. i must must go like tease me. i must must go on. this is on today's said. i've been asking should we bring back penalty? and back the death penalty? and according of according to our twitter, 73% of you yes, 27% you say no. you say yes, 27% of you say no. where's music i'm going say where's my music i'm going say thank you so much to my panel and economist lizzie. and also thank much to you some thank you so much to you some political editor. huge thank you to you at home as well for your company. back tomorrow company. i'll be back tomorrow at p.m. company. i'll be back tomorrow at pm. to discuss top at 4 pm. to discuss the top stories broadcast. and also christine also christine hamilton, i also brought journalist kelly thank you so much. leave it with you so much. i'll leave it with the see tomorrow . hello the weather see tomorrow. hello there. you're enjoying there. hope you're enjoying your weekend far. i'm jonathan three. who is your latest update from the office we will the met office we will increasingly see the winds strengthening across northern areas of the uk sunday but areas of the uk into sunday but for now winds are relatively light thanks to high that's pushing across the uk. pushing its way across the uk. we do just have to watch out for this from the slowly

this cold from the slowly sinking southwards is bringing some rain drizzle to some patchy rain and drizzle to some patchy rain and drizzle to some areas and that move some areas and that will move its into wales central areas its way into wales central areas of into evening is of england into this evening is remaining cloudy the remaining fairly cloudy the night there could be some clearer spells during the evening across northern ireland, parts of scotland, northern england that will allow apache frost as the frost to develop. but as the cloud its way in and the cloud fills its way in and the breeze begins strengthen. we breeze begins to strengthen. we will temperatures more will see temperatures more around figures in around low single figures in most cities . but into the most and cities. but into the start of morning, this is where we'll really start to see those winds strengthening across the northwest as a more expansive area of rain begins to its area of rain begins to push its way this could certainly be way in. this could certainly be heavy as start off heavy at times as we start off the elsewhere once the rain the day elsewhere once the rain and drizzle does eventually clear its way to the south, sunday will be a largely dry day, but another one. day, but another cloudy one. just bright spell here just the odd bright spell here and there. temperatures holding up around 8 to 9 degrees across southern areas. but actually ten, 11, maybe 12 degrees for the likes of aberdeen . those the likes of aberdeen. those winds coming up from the south until tomorrow evening. then that frontal system is going to gradually its across

gradually push its way across many areas . we will see some many areas. we will see some clearer spells develop behind that, also a rash showers that, but also a rash of showers pushing for scotland. 50 mile pushing in for scotland. 50 mile an hour gusts associated with these hail in these showers and some hail in there as well. but by the time we get monday morning, that front eventually its way front will eventually its way off across southern areas. so for many of the start of the new working week is looking a fairly pleasant one with some sunny intervals there. now, thanks to the high pressure. but the ridge of high pressure. but as throughout rest as we move throughout the rest of the week, our attentions turn to this low centre and that squeeze east of. us squeeze in the east of. us across scotland could provide some and windy some fairly blustery and windy conditions towards conditions, particularly towards the tuesday . so just the end of tuesday. so just watch for that. goodbye this watch out for that. goodbye this year on gb news got brand new members of the family join us across the entire united kingdom. we covered the issues that matter to you gb news will always stay honest balanced and fair . we won't say hey, whatever fair. we won't say hey, whatever is on your mind and we don't talk down to you the establishment their chance. now we're here to represent you.

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hello good evening and welcome along to neil oliver live on gb news tv and on the radio set. tonight i'll discuss controversial plans to add fluoride to drinking water across england and wales. there's reaction as well to the department of education's latest guidance on remote learning home schooling for schoolchildren . schooling for schoolchildren. and in a few minutes, i'll give my thoughts on why the introduction of digital id for everyone in the uk is a terrible , terrible idea. all of that and

more coming up. but first, an