welcome to gloria. we got a three former cabinet ministers in this evening's show. one from the last labour government, in this evening's show. one from the last labour government , two the last labour government, two who was sat around the top table just for months ago. both of them open up to me about their mental health. first up, it's simon clarke . i see a therapist simon clarke. i see a therapist who you know, is helping with that. who you know, is helping with that . and i think that's a good that. and i think that's a good thing to do. former conservative party chairman jake berry, you suffered with depression at university. you suffered with it again a few years ago, just as

the positive side of that is that it passed both times. do you think it could come back because of course it can do. i don't think it can come back. i think it will come back. he was health secretary under the last labour government. alan milburn working in residential care or in domiciliary care, looking after often severely frail elderly or disabled people. and what do we pay them? we pay them in the minimum wage. you can get as much working in tesco's come on, guys. it's not serious . all on, guys. it's not serious. all that after your news . that after your news. i'm ray anderson in the gb newsroom. rishi sunak has sacked nadhim zahawi after an ethics inquiry found that he committed a serious breach of the ministerial code. the former tory party chairman has been facing questions over his tax affairs after he admitted that he paid a penalty to hmrc for an error linked to shares in

polling company yougov. in a letter, mr. zahawi told the prime minister he will continue to support the government from the backbenches . mp jacob the backbenches. mp jacob rees—mogg says he has sympathy for him . the report seems to for him. the report seems to show that he made some technical errors with his declaration of the ministerial code and the prime minister has decided that they were serious enough to fire him. so i feel sorry for nadhim zahawi , but i think that after zahawi, but i think that after it dominating the headlines for a week , the rule of politics is a week, the rule of politics is that if you do that, it's very hard to remain in office . well, hard to remain in office. well, labour party chair annaliese dodds has written to rishi sunak saying he also has a lot of questions to answer . what did he questions to answer. what did he know and when about that enormous settlement that nadhim zahawi was negotiating with hmrc and the huge penalty that he had to pay points of rishi sunak's say in parliament that all questions had been answered

about this affair on offer. why on earth is the prime minister holding up this rogue's gallery of conservative ministers with others who obviously broken security rules, who are subject to allegations of very serious bullying and yet the prime minister seems to weak to act against them to scotland and no newly convicted transgender person with a history of violence against women will be placed in female prisons there. the temporary measure aims to ensure the safety of inmates while the management of trans prisoners is examined. the decision comes ahead of an urgent review into lessons learned by the case of convicted double rapist isla bryson, who was originally sent to a women's prison . the 16 year old boy has prison. the 16 year old boy has been charged with the murder of a teenage girl in hexham. 15 year old holly newton was stabbed in the priest poplar area of the town on friday. she died in hospital. the 16 year

old boy was also injured in that attack. the accused, who can't be named for legal reasons , has be named for legal reasons, has also been charged with attempted murder . the also been charged with attempted murder. the housing secretary has admitted that 40 government guidance allowed the grenfell tower tragedy to happen. michael gove says the whole system of building safety wasn't policed effectively enough. he's expected to announce a six week deadune expected to announce a six week deadline for developers tomorrow , forcing them to sign a contract to fix their unsafe homes or be banned from building new ones. the fire at the residential tower block in west london killed 72 people in 2017 .bons london killed 72 people in 2017 . borisjohnson london killed 72 people in 2017 . boris johnson was reportedly told to stop asking richard sharpe for advice about his personal financial matters . sharpe for advice about his personal financial matters. this was just two weeks before he was announced as the new chair of the bbc . according to the sun the bbc. according to the sun times, mr. johnson, who was prime minister at the time, was

warned to stop discussions in december 2020. mr. sharpe , who december 2020. mr. sharpe, who is a former banker , is facing is a former banker, is facing calls to resign after the emerged that he introduced the former pm to a guarantor for a loan . the government will loan. the government will pubush loan. the government will publish an urgent emergency care plan tomorrow to try to tackle pressures on the nhs. it comes as the health department announced plans to build virtual beds caring for tens of thousands of elderly and vulnerable people in their own homes. the health secretary admitted that there was no quick fix but said shifting care away from hospitals will reduce waiting times. however, shadow health secretary wes streeting is accusing the government of sticking plaster politics. it seems we've gone from 14 new hospital to hospital all at home. i think a lot of people will say, well, how will i be able to be treated in my own home if the government's half the number of district nurses who are essential to provide

support in the community? i think this government think this is a government that's of steam, run out that's run out of steam, run out of and isn't able to deal of ideas and isn't able to deal with the fundamental problems of the nhs. and so the resorting to sticking plasters and novak djokovic has won his 10th australian open tennis title. emotions ran high after the serbian beat greece's stefanos tsitsipas in straight sets. 637676. the 35 year old now holds 22 grand slam titles equalling rafa dale's record , equalling rafa dale's record, and he's reclaimed his position as world number one. djokovic returned to the tournament after being denied entry last year for failing to follow australia's covid rules on tv , online and on covid rules on tv, online and on tv plus radio . this is gb news tv plus radio. this is gb news will have more at the top of the next hour .

next hour. simon clarke, a 38 year young , simon clarke, a 38 year young, you were elected in 2017. you're already a former cabinet minister. let's talk about politics later in the interview. but i want to start with some personal stuff. when you were chief secretary to the treasury in 2021, were used to saying on budget days, chancellor holding up the briefcase with a team around them, but you didn't take part in that photograph because you revealed that you suffer with agoraphobia. can you explain what agoraphobia is? well, it's a complex condition and as always, when you're talking about these sort of things, it's best to probably speak for me than for everybody who lives with it. but i, i would characterise it as anxiety around being unable to leave a situation . it's classically situation. it's classically associated with a sort of a fear of open spaces, but it's

basically , i would say it's much basically, i would say it's much more about a fear of being caughtin more about a fear of being caught in a situation for which you can't leave really that, that that's how it manifests itself. and it's, it is it's an anxiety disorder. and it's something which i, i think it's important to be open about because , you know, clearly, we because, you know, clearly, we live in an age where just this week the prime minister has been talking about the vital importance of investing in mental health. and after the pandemic, i think there's a newfound awareness just how newfound awareness of just how critical an issue this is. and it isn't anything to be ashamed about. i think that's, you know , that's the most positive message i can put out. there were a lot of colleagues have spoken very well about this. the likes kevin jones, for likes of kevin jones, for example, the other side of example, on the other side of the house has spoken you know, very thoughtful about this. and i think that , you know, to i do think that, you know, to show senior figures in show that senior figures in pubuc show that senior figures in public life can live with this and also receive what has always been a very understanding heanng been a very understanding hearing from friends and

colleagues is probably a good thing to do . when did you first thing to do. when did you first become aware of the condition ? become aware of the condition? i've lived with it on and off since my early twenties, in truth and it's one of those things that waxes and wanes and it correlates, i suspect, to the pressure you're under , in part pressure you're under, in part also perhaps how rundown you are and there's one thing that, you know, government jobs do, and they take a huge toll right on they take a huge toll right on the on the people who hold them. and i think that's probably an underestimated part of the westminster story, if you like. the strain , the sheer physical the strain, the sheer physical and mental strain , the people and mental strain, the people holding these jobs are under and i just thought , rather than put i just thought, rather than put myself through what would have been a really difficult situation , better to be honest, situation, better to be honest, and you know, in truth, with the exception of some of the more toxic parts of social media, you know, the response from what you might call real people , both in might call real people, both in the westminster bubble , but

the westminster bubble, but critically in the world beyond, has always been as i say, extremely supportive and helpful . and that in turn is part of the process of trying to get better. interesting trying to get better . do you have get better. do you have treatment or take medication for why ? i see a therapist to you why? i see a therapist to you know is helping with that and i think that's a good thing to do and it is helping . that's the and it is helping. that's the i mean that's the most important thing to say that it's not you know, this isn't so, you know, an abstract question. it is helping. and i certainly feel a lot better than i did that autumn. but it's you know, it's not tend to bang on not something i tend to bang on about too much for fear of becoming a prince harry of parliament, if you like, and emoting bit too much. but emoting a bit too much. but equally, do think it's a very equally, i do think it's a very good thing to be able to tell viewers and constituents and everybody else that actually not only are we in westminster words talk about this sort of stuff, but also critically that the help that is out there and we need to do more on this, but i hope that is out there can help

you turn a corner. can you think of a the trickiest situation in that you were in why you thought this not right? if you want this is not right? if you want to reveal. don't want to. i to reveal. i don't want to. i mean, i say mean, it's not as i say something, i sort of, you know, like about too much. but like to talk about too much. but the reality is that i'm lucky that it hasn't manifested itself ever the context of the house ever in the context of the house of commons or anything like that. mean, i'm i'm fortunate that. i mean, i'm i'm fortunate in that regard that it doesn't affect my ability to do my job. but the reality is that certain settings are just very difficult for me and, you know, the classic sort of place i really struggle with is the concourse of kings cross station or a big airport like heathrow. those are the places i think. i think if you look at the experts, they often say that travel is one of those things which can be a real challenge . and i don't know challenge. and i don't know whether that's sort of silly about missing a play or the train or whatever else, but those are the settings i find most difficult and something interesting about what you said,

where you were describing the pressures of the job of being in the and being the top the cabinet and being in the top level of politics. you said it can affect one's mental health. so would you like to elaborate? well, only that i think if you are, you know , tired and are, you know, tired and strained, that are, you know, in the same way that you can physically get worn down, i think you can bend to get worn down. and if you have a predisposition to something like agoraphobia or any one of frankly, a range , just sort of frankly, a range, just sort of similar anxiety related disorders, then i doubt it's particularly helpful really . and particularly helpful really. and i think , you know, that is , as i think, you know, that is, as i say something which the nature of modern politics hasn't helped because the hours are long. obviously, the weight of the decisions is heavy , but also decisions is heavy, but also just the way in which our politics has become so nasty in in recent years has has not help

and, i mean, that's you know, that's a very complex question and one which there is no straightforward answer to how you make up politics a healthier place , because politics should place, because politics should be robust . but as you all know be robust. but as you all know from your time in westminster, it's so often goes way beyond that , into a it's so often goes way beyond that, into a sort of a climate where you cannot do right for doing wrong , and where are , if doing wrong, and where are, if you like, just the sheer hatred which is often on display , which is often on display, particularly behind the anonymity of social media, is that it's extraordinary. thank you for being so open and honest. all we're going to talk about politics. you did an interview in the spectator magazine recently and i wanted to ask you about this line that you said. if the leadership dramas of the past year have taught us anything, it is that a battle for the soul of the tory party is under way. what's the battle? i think the battle is about the type of party that we

want to be and who we want to be. fighting for and that interview came against the backdrop of our the housing issues at the end of last year. the big debate around new homes. and i think that is a really good way into what is a wider conversation about what the conservative party ought to be doing. i personally believe that at a time when house prices and rents are moving increasingly beyond the reach of so many people, particularly in london and the southeast, but not obviously limited to here at all. i think there is a massive imperative for us to up our game in terms of the number of the number of homes that we're building with a particular view, obviously, to improving the life chances of people in the thirties who are the thirties and forties who are the main victim of what is fundamentally an issue of supply and demand. there are complicating other factors, but we're building enough homes we're not building enough homes that's up prices. we that's driving up prices. we need it . some of my need to fix it. some of my colleagues clearly take a

contrary view. they in many cases because they have very challenging constituency issues with new homes. i do get because you would have them and you represent those. but south and east cleveland, i'm sure. i mean, like in any of middlesbrough's city town towns and any town a location. yes very lucky on that. okay. but in towns like the one i used to represent, the one that you represent, the one that you represent, i think it's a particular issue because house pnces particular issue because house prices are on about you know, i mean, this is not an issue i would have to say, which really affects the north—east. but just with the big angle lens on, we need to be the party of opportunity. i mean, i'm a conservative because i believe in effectively fighting for the rights of those and the opportunities of those who often lose out to the big vested interests, the big producer interests, the big producer interests, which often work against them and i'm keenly involved in the new conservative growth caucus that we set up in the party. i'm also backing the next generation conservatives

group, which has been set up and housing is one of the issues that matters. childcare is another, right? the exorbitant cost of childcare and these are the issues i think we ought to be really taking a stand on and offering innovative solutions to because as i've said a couple of times over recent months , this times over recent months, this is not just about doing what's right for the country , which is right for the country, which is obviously what ought to motivate all of us in politics. it's also existential for my party. if you look at the conservatives demographic breakdown , we are demographic breakdown, we are absolutely in a dreadful place among the under forties and if we're going to rectify that, we have to be talking about the issues that actually matter to people of my age and young and homes , childcare. these are the homes, childcare. these are the kind of things which really are the bread and butter of trying to have a conversation with with people who are clearly the losers from problems which are i'm afraid, the result of bad policy when you knock on doors

and use your grit, it's by somebody in their twenties to actually vote at all, because i was the first to challenge. but you think it's past and i've got i've got no chance because i run the force. is it that stakes? it's not that. i mean, this goes to the point that actually in my own patch, ironically, is own patch, ironically, it is much do much less challenging but do want it. but do i think in the round that there is a big problem for the conservatives with younger absolutely with younger voters? absolutely and case that if i and is it the case that if i knock the door and there's knock on the door and there's a pensioner then pensioner there, then i automatically well, this pensioner there, then i algoingically well, this pensioner there, then i algoing to lly well, this pensioner there, then i algoing to be well, this pensioner there, then i algoing to be a well, this pensioner there, then i algoing to be a muchell, this pensioner there, then i algoing to be a much easiers is going to be a much easier conversation. yes absolutely. and, you know, is not and, you know, this is not a binary choice. it should be perfectly possible stand up perfectly possible to stand up for life in for quality of life in retirement also to champion retirement and also to champion a term view about being a longer term view about being effectively a more pro opportunity society . i think the opportunity society. i think the biggest battle that we have on our hands at the moment is against the rampant nimbyism , against the rampant nimbyism, which has caught hold of my party. and we just need to have a really robust conversation and a really robust conversation and a conversation a really grown up conversation with electorate that

with with the electorate that saying that you can only build on a few patches of brownfield land , preferably as far away land, preferably as far away from the south—east of england as possible. that is not a housing policy worthy of the name is a disservice to name and it is a disservice to millions of people , but also, millions of people, but also, frankly, to their faith and politics, to pretend that it is okay. very interesting . i want okay. very interesting. i want to ask you about something else you said. you said this in december in a nick robinson podcast, which talks about liz truss , his rise and fall. podcast, which talks about liz truss , his rise and fall . you truss, his rise and fall. you said this, i believe a number of colleagues wanted her to fail . colleagues wanted her to fail. they never frankly got over losing the contest in the summer and they wanted her to fail. who well, it wouldn't be for me to name names , but i do think that name names, but i do think that one of the challenges that liz faced in the very difficult days at the end of september, beginning of october, was that a lot of the conservative party , lot of the conservative party, frankly, weren't particularly on

board with what she was seeking to do, which was this fundamental to reset, to try and achieve a higher growth, lower tax proposition, and to try and, frankly, get the dynamism back into the uk economy, because i think we can all agree that sluggish growth has been one of the besetting problems of the last 15, 16 years since the crash and the issue was that, you know, both the markets were sympathetic. the bank of england wasn't particularly sympathetic, but also a number of conservative mp were frankly not in the business of trying to give her the time to deliver what was always going to be a difficult pivot , if you like, difficult pivot, if you like, from one policy to another , but from one policy to another, but one which she had clearly set out during the course of her leadership campaign and she'd won a mandate from the members to deliver. and, you know, the negative briefing, some of it in in public, but some of it obviously was often just in

private, was was deeply corrosive to her ability to do that. and i think , you know, it that. and i think, you know, it is for colleagues ultimately to judge their own actions and whether they got behind the leader. but i do feel and still feel that people owed liz more loyalty and more time to deliver what was something which , as what was something which, as i say, she had won the argument on dunng say, she had won the argument on during the course of last summer . clearly, i think, you know, looking back, she ought to have built a government which was more broadly constituted across the conservative party. she did not help herself as prime minister by constituting a government, which i think was too narrowly drawn from those who had supported her, but nonetheless , ultimately, we owe nonetheless, ultimately, we owe our loyalty to our leaders. and i am totally clear that i want rishi sunak's government to succeed because that is ultimately in the in the

national interest in the party's interests. but that same spirit did not seem to apply, i'm afraid, with liz last summer, and that is a abiding regret. simon clarke i felt like that was a real conversation rather than a political interview . i than a political interview. i feel that you were very frank on your politics and your views very open about your agoraphobia . i thoroughly enjoyed it. i wanted to say thank you. thanks for coming up. former conservative party chairman jake berry . i just conservative party chairman jake berry. i just not happy with conservative party chairman jake berry . i just not happy with the berry. i just not happy with the person i am anymore because i've sort of i've lost me somewhere in this great sort of battle of politics and the term balance of life and having children. i've lost me somewhere. it was health secretary into the last labour government. it's alan milburn. if you've got 7 million people on an nhs waiting list, it's an ideological extravagance to save that you can't use the private sector to treat nhs patients according to nhs principles

where the treatment is for free and no one is paying other than the state and the taxpayer.

jake barry when it is in politics as well, but we're going to start off by in the theme of this series of interviews, the real me. can i start by asking you about losing your brother , who you know is your brother, who you know is a tragedy? he was 47 years old when he died and the real tragedy for me and our family and his children is that it was all just completely avoidable. he came to stay with me home in lancashire and i noticed because he kept waking me up actually, that he kept getting up and having a pain in in the middle of the night. and i said, you know, what's the matter with you, maxine? i want why you're

47, not 87. you know, why do you kill 45 as he was that much ? and kill 45 as he was that much? and he said, i've just got this real problem that i need to keep going to pay. and i said to me, you really, really should go to the doctor about that. that's not normal. but he did go and see his gp and they misdiagnosed sadly what they call prostatitis . and he had course after course of antibiotics and when he'd been at this because he lives that didn't live near to me when he'd been it for a few months, i said to him , i think you might said to him, i think you might have prostate cancer . i'll go have prostate cancer. i'll go and get your psa because working in parliaments, as you know, we have the annual sort of focus on prostate cancer and prostate cancer awareness . and he was cancer awareness. and he was very, very reluctant to do that . and sadly, when he did get round to doing it and it's a really important message for men actually when he did get round to doing it, the cancer he had, which had started out as very minor but aggressive , had spread

minor but aggressive, had spread to his lungs. and he also had bone cancer as well . and then it bone cancer as well. and then it stopped being a conversation about , you know, let's get the about, you know, let's get the prostate cancer in and cure it, which you can effectively almost do now if you're going to early to how how we can extend your life and what i just what's so tragic is i remember talking to him repeatedly and him the sort of his ambition for extending his life sort of went from , you his life sort of went from, you know, i'd like to be here for my daughter's 18th know, i'd like to be here for my daughter's18th birthday to i'd like to be here to see you get her gcse results or i'd like to see her, you know, 14th birthday and it just kept coming back and back and he died relatively quickly and it just felt completely unnecessary . right. completely unnecessary. right. i was i was a minister at the time in levelling up and i remember my phone ringing and him saying , this is the last time you'll ever speak to me because i'm in

hospital embalming him. the doctors have said that i'm going to die and the next 2 hours and you know , so i just walked you know, so i just walked straight out, got in my car, picked my sister up, who works in london , and my wife and drove in london, and my wife and drove to see him in the hospital. and he was alive when we got there. so we got him home and then i sort of cared for him that evening and into the next day and that time that we spent together is just so precious to me. i rememberi together is just so precious to me. i remember i was we were driving home. i said what you want? and he said, get me a bottle of jameson's whisky and a pack of cigarettes. and he'd given smoking years ago. and given up smoking years ago. and light that first night. he sort of said, right, a light. i'd like to have a cigarette and a i think i'll have a glass of whisky and he turned round to his wife and said, yeah, can i have that. and one of those crystal glasses we've got. and

she said, well, that's the best. he this would the last glass he this would be the last glass of whisky i ever have. you know, i'm and you say, i'm dying. and you just say, well, he's inappropriate things that and laugh that you can look back and laugh out and the real thing for me was so he couldn't walk. so i pushed him outside and he sat there and he couldn't even drink there and he couldn't even drink the whisky. but he sat there and smoked a cigarette and i had a conversation i said conversation with him and i said the question i was desperate to ask him. i said, you know, are you scared ? and he said, no, i'm you scared? and he said, no, i'm not. he said, absolutely not. but i say time others that great disappointment. you can't help but thinking if he got that early diagnosis it would have been a different story. and i'd say to, know, anyone say to, you know, anyone watching this tonight, basically bluntly, if you're a bloke and you get sort of problems with your waterworks anything like your waterworks or anything like that, it's just go and see a gp. you've given that message really, thank really, really powerfully. thank you . obviously sorry that you. well, obviously sorry that you. well, obviously sorry that you have to give that message. obviously this had an effect on you . i read an interview in

you. i read an interview in which you said i finally admitted to my wife, i was struggling with dark souls and anxiety . can you describe the anxiety. can you describe the nature of the dark thoughts? you know , when i went on is a know, when i went on is a universal day. i did have a penod universal day. i did have a period of time where i struggled quite badly with depression , you quite badly with depression, you know, that i sort of got that sort it when i was in my early twenties. and it always been fine with it, but i had a succession of challenges . i succession of challenges. i stopped being a while my brother died and then shortly thereafter igave died and then shortly thereafter i gave up the job i love, which was northern powerhouse minister. and then my mother died very shortly after that. and i think the culmination of those events sort of made it really hard just to cope with the day to day . and you know, the day to day. and you know, again, it is , you know, when you again, it is, you know, when you face that and the challenge that to oppression and mental health issues in general can bring you

know, the thing to do is to talk to the nearest and dearest around you. and in a way , it can around you. and in a way, it can be a bit of an explanation for you , you know, where was that you, you know, where was that person, jake barry , was he gone? person, jake barry, was he gone? the father , you know, was always the father, you know, was always presence in the room , but now presence in the room, but now sits there looking at his phone and goes to bed early. where's that person gone? and it's only the point at which you can you sort of sit down and say, i do think i've got an issue with this. i think i should, you know , seek a remedy, whether that's talking to people or whether it's medication that you can start to make that journey back to the person that you were and funnily enough, because we all think the when we suffer, we suffer a life . that was the suffer a life. that was the point where my wife also said to me how badly she'd been struggling with post—natal depression . she'd just had depression. she'd just had a third child. so he should have been really worried she would have three children in quick succession. we've gone through

together all of those problems around the loss of my brother, who she was very close to as well, and my mother and also politics is kind of a bit of a family business because you're both in it together, really. you can't be an mp without the support of your other half. so we've been through a really tough time and when i sort of talked to her and said, you know, i really think that i've i'm just not happy with the person i am anymore because i've sort of i've lost me somewhere in this great sort of battle of polity x and the turbulence of life and having children. i've lost me some . and i know that lost me some. and i know that she felt similar and it was just good to be able to talk to each other about it. i think in truth, the challenges she faced with post—natal depression, which is sort of medically dnven which is sort of medically driven problems, mental health, are but very sort of strongly medically driven by, you know, having had a baby and that hormone crash that can happen afterwards. you know, i think she faced great challenges . and

she faced great challenges. and deau she faced great challenges. and dealt with them very bravely and the more we talk about it, i guess, the more able other people feel to come forward and talk about it. but you got some really dark days, but i guess the key messages, whether you're a man or a woman , it's just a man or a woman, it's just don't suffer alone. talk to people . but also there is people. but also there is a bright, sunny day on the other side . and you come out of it and side. and you come out of it and i'm not going to ask about your wife because that's her story. but if you would like to tell me how you dealt with your depression and this is your moment equally, if you don't want to tell me that, then it is personal too. and there is no pressure . so i think the biggest pressure. so i think the biggest challenge i had was saying that i had a problem and i didn't seek any formal help because i actually almost admitted i didn't make it back to . but didn't make it back to. but almost in admitting it made it manageable and it's something

having having dealt with it in my early late teens, early twenties , it's something i knew twenties, it's something i knew would pass and, and i think that also gave me hope and the ability to deal with it. and i guess you suffered with depression at university. you suffered with it again a few years ago , just as the positive years ago, just as the positive side of that is that it passed both times. do you think it could come back? because of course, of course it can do. i don't think it can come back. i think it will come back. but i go back to the sort of dealing with it historically makes you more able to deal with it in the future. and you know, i think we'll we'll be ready for it. the one thing i've learned, too, is that you i don't suffer in silence, talk to other people and you will be amazed. you definitely won't be the only person who's had that experience. and you may free and enable other people to talk about it's incredibly about it. it's incredibly powerful to talk so powerful to hear you talk so openly in that way. powerful to hear you talk so openly in that way . thank you . openly in that way. thank you. gosh, i do want to i've got a

bit of politics for you . thank bit of politics for you. thank you.thank bit of politics for you. thank you. thank you. jake berry gets political after the break. there's a perception of the conservative parliamentary party now being disconnected from our membership .

you have been subject to awful harassment by a constituent . you harassment by a constituent. you also you told me before we came on to have suffered from a stalker . to on to have suffered from a stalker. to just tell us a little bit about about those cases. little bit about about those cases . it little bit about about those cases. it sounds frightening . cases. it sounds frightening. was it frightening? the issue became to see me about i got tens of thousands of pounds worth of compensation and i thought it ought to be almost be a hero to this guy. i went to

see my mp, my mp, his job of help me as a constituent and that rapidly asking voted into quite a sustained campaign of violent threats of violence and intimidation. i remember one day going to the costa coffee at a local retail park in my constituency and he came over to speak to me and said you know what? why won't you respond to my emails anymore? i said to my boss, we've couple of my kids and my wife, and i said, you know what? i'll do a deal with you. stop threatening to, you. you stop threatening to, kill i'll start kill me and i'll start responding emails. he responding to emails. and he said, they're not those said, well, they're not those type threats. said, type of death threats. i said, well, times all that well, how many times all that you threatened to kill me or you don't follow that another stalker of bizarrely stalker who sort of bizarrely checked into a hotel in my constituency , a woman. it was constituency, a woman. it was a lady who had claimed to work for me. and the first i knew about it was new year's day . and the it was new year's day. and the hotel phoned me up and said, we have lady staying here. you have this lady staying here. you need to come pay her hotel need to come and pay her hotel bill and said, well, i, i really

have no idea what you're about. i don't know who this is. i don't have anyone, but we have that name and they've been staying there for, i think half a dozen nights. and i'd up this huge hotel bill and i said to the manager, we know what should i do about this bill? i said, well, i suggest you do what i'm going so i'm going to going to do, so i'm going to stay in the place and that individual he was from the north—east of england who travelled lancashire travelled down to lancashire then had sort of fixation and then had a sort of fixation and claimed that she was having my baby claim we were getting married, did a youtube channel about maternity and wedding wear, came our lane to our house, was sort of at the end of the line with a suitcase waiting to get away with me or whatever she had in her mind. yes, you're speaking so openly , it's hard to speaking so openly, it's hard to move on a genuine, straightforward question, but nonetheless, truss's premiership brief premiership . you are party

brief premiership. you are party chairman, your right at the centre of it . you're there right centre of it. you're there right until the end. when you leave. when she leaves office . can you when she leaves office. can you tell me anything about those last few days? yes. a party chairman is a very, very personal appointment for the prime minister. you normally come in and out with them. you know, sometimes they change them halfway through the premiership. but it's a very tight relationship . you're going to be relationship. you're going to be prime minister of this country. the three crucial job. so your chairman your papers, which is sort of your prime minister's assistant who talks the backbenchers for you and your chief whip, when that really is the group who are very close and tight with the prime minister. but i like to say a all on that sunday morning and sort of really set out to a that i thought, you know , following the thought, you know, following the mini budget and we had real problems with colleagues and. part of my job is to be the

truth teller if you like to go in and say, you know, no matter how many people are still around you saying, it'll be all right, or you know, we can get through this unless things change, then you won't . when she asked me to you won't. when she asked me to effectively stand up a war room, if you like, in number, starting number, the monday morning . so number, the monday morning. so we stood at that war room and effectively all decisions that were made came through that group, which was me, the prime, the chief whip and the deputy prime minister. i can recall before the prime minister's questions on that wednesday there was a big debate about whether we would honour the triple lock pensioners and there was a lot of pushback from the treasury not wanting to make the commitment . i actually think the commitment. i actually think the commitment. i actually think the commitment always would have been made. it was a timing thing and you know, not to do the triple lock and not to a great

benefits by inflation would have taken legislation through the house of commons. and i said to the people in the treasury, i said, you know, you will work in the treasury, but trust you the treasury, but trust me, you need to how to count. need to learn how to count. there no majority in there is no majority in parliament to operate parliament to not operate pensioner benefits, pensions and you know, other disability benefits not work benefits. and that decision was made. and then the prime minister, liz truss announced that prime minister's questions that was going to take place. so it was a fascinating moment to be able to sort of pull all the strings of government to try and point it in the direction of, you know, the government continuing in a real privilege . on the next day, real privilege. on the next day, the prime minister did resign. but before that happened, which i just found extraordinary , i i just found extraordinary, i was actually speaking to the local government association in central london . i was pulled central london. i was pulled away from that to go into the treasury and i arrived at the treasury and i arrived at the treasury to talk to jeremy hunt , who economically and quite rightly was concerned about the

instable legacy for the economy, about losing a prime minister, and how that prime minister would and could be replace what i felt just extraordinary. and i maybe i should have expected days when i arrived at the meeting talked to him, there were two most senior civil servants in the treasury . he servants in the treasury. he spent 15 minutes sort of talking to me about why there could be no long, protracted leadership election in the conservative party . and they asked me at the party. and they asked me at the end of it, you know, do you agree? and i said, well, i hope you don't mind me saying i don't really think it's any of your business. it's about how political parties as civil servants. i don't think it's any of business how of your business about how political parties their political parties choose their leader. matter for leader. that's a matter for political but i did political parties. but i did speak to jeremy we very speak to jeremy and we very quickly worked out that it was possible if it came to it, to have a leadership election in two or three days that would engage the membership the engage the membership of the conservative party in the vote. i actually it's a great i actually think it's a great

pity i actually think it's a great pity rishi sunak that we pity for rishi sunak that we didn't have a vote of members because in the summer fine conservatives that he is in, he struggled actually to get the support of conservative party members as funnily enough did . members as funnily enough did. jeremy hunt in previous leadership election . and i think leadership election. and i think even though he absolutely got the majority of mps, the conservative of parliament, and now i support him as prime minister, everything he does there is a challenge he has is even if is not true, there's a perception of the conservative parliamentary party now being disconnected from our membership because we didn't have that even if it was a sort of endorsement vote for rishi, which i'm sure you know, if he'd have asked conservative members to endorse him, he would have won it. well and i do think if you look at some of the political manoeuvrings that are going on with the chris and priti patel

movement for members and some of the other things that are sort of the wider sort of anger and disengagement amongst the conservative membership are often being denied that fact . i often being denied that fact. i think, you know, it would have been better for all concerned actually if even a signed endorsement back to taking place. that was a remarkable interview. thank you for giving us those political insights at the end. but the powerful messages on prostate cancer and the prussian, they are the undo for me. are we done ? i've only for me. are we done? i've only just started. what about some of the stuff ? you know, we might the stuff? you know, we might need to do a part to take that because i could talk to jake barry . you for coming up. he was barry. you for coming up. he was health secretary in the last labour government. alan milburn i remember the general election in 1997 and although the opinion polls were saying that it was going to have a landslide, not one of us believed that .

alan milburn if you were elected as an mp, labour mp in 1992 had big cabinet jobs, the big cabinet job i'm really interested in because i think it's relevant to the issues face today is when your health secretary, your health secretary for four years. so i want to explore how we might deal with the issues in the nhs today. what was the most surprising causing thing? shocking surprising thing, unexpected thing. you learned when you were effectively in charge of our national health service? that you can't run in from an office in whitehall, so people think you will and think you should be able to , but it's just too big, able to, but it's just too big, you know, it employed in those days. well a million people. it now a million and a half now employs a million and a half people. before you people. and that's before you take account social care. take into account social care. okay. so it's enormous. so what you've got to do in a job like

thatis you've got to do in a job like that is you basically got to almost establish what the framework is , what the overall framework is, what the overall policy environment is. then you've got to trust the people are actually delivering the care, whether the doctors or nurses or managers to be able to get on with it. and a lot of the changes that i made during the time were about saying to those guys actually, i'm going to trust you to do the job, i'm going give you the resources. going to give you the resources. i'm going to give you a whole bunch of reforms that help bunch of reforms that can help you. the end, it's your you. but in the end, it's your responsibility deliver responsibility to deliver improved care for patients so that thing. what you that was the thing. what you were was it's a bit like now in a sense, the biggest problem back then was how long people were waiting treatment . so were waiting for treatment. so people . a friend of people were waiting. a friend of mine, a guy who worked as a photographer , my local newspaper photographer, my local newspaper in darlington , the northern in darlington, the northern echo, got called in. we are he's in his late thirties did died waiting for a heart operation and he'd been waiting. i can't remember his 12 months or 15 months. i didn't know about

this. he only came to see me towards the end his wave and towards the end of his wave and i couldn't really anything by i couldn't really do anything by then. and so that was happening regularly. people were dying, waiting serious waiting for pretty serious operations, you know, well over 18 months. and we eventually got it down maximum of 18 it down to a maximum of 18 weeks. took several years to weeks. it took several years to get and a lot of money get there and a lot of money and, of change. but we got and, a lot of change. but we got there and i was determined. but people like ian and his family, he have young kids that that was wrong. and that people weren't going to suffer in that way. so there was a live debate that is going on about how we improve the nhs , how we get those the nhs, how we get those waiting times down. sajid javid , a former health secretary . , a former health secretary. said recently patients should be charged for gp appointments. the present model of the nhs is unsustainable well, he suggested a figure of unsustainable well, he suggested a figure 0 f £20. now he said a figure of £20. now he said that apply to those on that wouldn't apply to those on low incomes. do you have any truck with an argument? absolutely no. i mean, it's a

total fallacy. i mean, it's isn't going to make a blind bit of difference even if every top rate taxpayer the country rate taxpayer in the country paid quid every time they paid 20 quid every time they went gp, presuming went to a gp, presuming that they're nhs gp and they're going to an nhs gp and not a private one, of course, because of them. well who will make a blind difference ? make a blind bit a difference? it pennies a drop in it would be pennies a drop in the ocean. what is required is you need a long term plan for investment because there's been too much short termism about what's going to happen tomorrow . what do we need to do by next week? the truth is, doctors and nurses don't grow on trees and you can't build new hospitals like you've got to like that. you've got to have a long term investment. if i long term for investment. if i were the job now, what were doing the job now, what i would say i'd be saying to treasury is i need a five year deal so that i've got visible . deal so that i've got visible. let's about how much money let's see about how much money the is to have over a the nhs is going to have over a penod the nhs is going to have over a period time able to period of time to be able to invest the right way, invest in the right way, particularly to grow resources outside of the hospital rather than just in hospitals. and then alongside that you have a big long term reform plan as well.

it's all going to be about the long term. the idea you can long term. the idea that you can fix crisis that we've got in fix the crisis that we've got in a matter of weeks or frankly, even a couple of years is foolish as it's leading the pubuc foolish as it's leading the public blindly. so and in a sense, that's what we did back in the day. you know, we published a plan that was a ten year plan and that was a big risk because the public, as i say, were waiting for a long time treatment. and time for treatment. and i remember thinking when we published it, oh, god, are published it, oh, my god, are the going to buy it? the public going to buy it? because is because they the problem is today and years is a long today and ten years is a long time. right. public had time. right. but the public had worked out then just as i suspect people have worked out now, problems are deep that now, the problems are deep that are but they're are entrenched, but they're structural going structural and they're going to require them. this require time to fix them. this week, senior story, week, another senior story, jacob said this jacob rees—mogg, said this i think we should encourage people use private health. i don't the nervousness about using private health which makes the queues for public health lower if you can afford it, if you are wealthy , do you have

wealthy, do you have responsibility actually to private health care? i think it's a matter of choice for people. if people want to use private health care, hey, that's a matter for them. but the vast majority of people are never going be able to do that . and going to be able to do that. and when talk about, oh, the when people talk about, oh, the answer insurance, what forget answer is insurance, what forget is that that's what the nhs is. it's a gigantic health insurance system where we all pay in through our taxes and we all take out when we need to . based take out when we need to. based upon one very simple principle , upon one very simple principle, which is that it's not the size of your wallet that counts, it's the scale of you need. and i think that is the right for the country now , when keir starmer, country now, when keir starmer, the labour leader that the nhs isn't a shrine or a religion , isn't a shrine or a religion, he's right. you know, we don't just worship it, it's we need to sustain it and the way you sustain it and the way you sustain it and the way you sustain it is changing it because look, times are moving on. you know, we live in a digital world is the nhs for it fully digitalised? no, it isn't . we've got a huge problem with staffing. if you take health and social care together, we've got

300,000 staff vacancies on the idea that somehow or other you're got to wave a magic wand, click your fingers, and that's going to be all right. that isn't just going to happen. so we're going have to think we're going to have to think about use technology and about how we use technology and not just how we use people to provide better forms of health care in the future. and again, that requires plan. it that requires a plan. it requires focus, it requires investment and it requires reform and problem is that all four of those things are absent. nurses paramedics, and it just handlers and about a week's time, they will be going on strike again. is it any wonder? no, of course not. look, the wages are being held down. i mean, it's an outrage. let's just take one group of professionals . let's take social professionals. let's take social care professionals , because by care professionals, because by and large, we always talk about doctors the masses for good reason, right? yeah well, man, what a job you're working in. residential care or in domiciliary care, looking after often severe , really frail,

often severe, really frail, elderly or disabled people. now, what do we pay them? we pay them the minimum wage . you can get as the minimum wage. you can get as much working in tescos. the minimum wage. you can get as much working in tescos . oh come much working in tescos. oh come on guys man. it's not serious really . it's not the sort of really. it's not the sort of country that we are. i don't think it is. if it were me, i'd introduce a proper living wage for social care. people and it would be higher when you could have in tesco's to make social care competitive . we've got more care competitive. we've got more vacancies in social care than we've got doctors working in the nhs. i mean it's terrible, it really is bad. so so money is part of it . but really is bad. so so money is part of it. but you know, really is bad. so so money is part of it . but you know, the part of it. but you know, the lesson i learned, gloria, was that labour in a lot of money, you know, we in and recruited a lot of docs nurses of the staff of a lot of hospitals and all of that sort of stuff. but i tell you, the change, the improvement really only happened when we put in what were very controversial changes. in what were very controversial changes . the relationship with changes. the relationship with the private sector, more competition , more choice for competition, more choice for patients, greater transparency. theidea patients, greater transparency. the idea that you paid the

hospitals who were doing more more money this was this was not how things were done in the nhs when those changes went in. that was the moment when the waiting times began to fall. so the lesson is lesson. then was reform works. the lesson now is that you need reform to work again. what is the role of the private sector in today's health service? you go back , you're service? you go back, you're you're the health secretary again. how do you use the private sector ? some people say private sector? some people say it has no role. look at the private initiatives. you get horror stories of hospitals having to play horror stories of hospitals having to pla y £5,000 to install having to play £5,000 to install a single. you know, there are all this you get you get the point. yeah. yeah sure. and look, i understand why people have got a gut reaction to it. but honestly, if you've got 7 million people on nhs waiting million people on an nhs waiting list, an ideological list, it's an ideological extravagance to say that you can't use the private sector to treat nhs patients according to nhs principles where the treatment is for free and no one

is paying other than the state and the taxpayer in the end. so i think what we should do very pragmatically, if it was me today, i'd get all the private sector hospital guys in the room with me in the department of health, and i'd ask them a very simple question what's the capacity that you've got, the despair capacity that you've got, the desyour private purpose? since for your private purpose? since they answer and i'd they tell me the answer and i'd offer to buy it and i buy it in order to be able to treat nhs patients for free. now the truth is people sometimes put it up as the, the private sector in this country is small, it's tiny 92% of the care that is provided is the nhs, but around 8. so can make a contribution. is the private sector . so why would you private sector. so why would you use let's be pragmatic about it. it's sensible. okay i think that some people who may have labour in the past or who are sceptical about labour might have heard these three things in this interview. you you talked about investment a lot. you've talked

about nhs workers just having a pay about nhs workers just having a pay rise . you've talked about pay rise. you've talked about using the private sector. that's also expensive , isn't the danger also expensive, isn't the danger is that people say , oh, it's is that people say, oh, it's labour and then magic money trigger there is no money. yes, and there is no money. so it is going to be challenging next time round. it really but time round. it really is. but look, not a health care look, there's not a health care system the world, largely system in the world, largely because demography because of changes in demography . know, thank fully . you know, people thank fully you know, i'm 65 soon so you that i feel it right people are living longer it's a great thing but it costs more and so every health care system in the world is having to spend more. now, the question is how you spend it and how much you need. and that's why i say you need to work that out over a period of time. and just your time. and not just click your fingers and say, we're going to do settlement one year or do a settlement for one year or two years. it needs a five year settlement, in my view. and then there some that you there are some things that you can massively will save can do that massively will save money. give example. money. i'll give you an example. so during pandemic, because so during the pandemic, because the of the hospitals were full of patients with covid, they created what they called virtual

wards, where you use technology in order to be able to monitor people who are at some risk but are probably safe enough to be monitored at home rather than occupying a hospital bed and it's much cheaper to do that . we it's much cheaper to do that. we should be doing that at scale. you know, we know the figures . you know, we know the figures. look, i've seen them for 25 years and never changes. so one in four patients who are in hospital today should never, ever be near a hospital bed. why? because if we intervene early enough , then we can early enough, then we can prevent them ever getting there. so the focus of these reforms that i talk about should all be about how do we keep patients healthy and out of hospital rather than simply assuming that everybody's going to go into hospital on the day that the bulk of the money is going to go to the hospital. so we massive we need build up primary we need to build up primary care. but here's the problem. since 2015, there are 7% fewer gp's . we need more of them. we gp's. we need more of them. we need to get the priorities right andifs

need to get the priorities right and it's all really about how do we prevent people getting ill rather than simply treating them when they are . final question , when they are. final question, it's good to talk about the labour party. so you got elected in 1992. it's two years before tony blair becomes leader of the labour party . the tories are in labour party. the tories are in a terrible time. the move is just massive lay off favouring that labour landslide that then came to happen in 1997. does this feel like the same territory to you ? no, it territory to you? no, it doesn't. but by the way , i doesn't. but by the way, i remember the general election campaign in 1997 and although the opinion polls were saying labour was going to have a landslide, not one of us believed it . so there was no believed it. so there was no sense of complacency. we were running through the finishing line, you know, we weren't ambling towards it, line, you know, we weren't ambling towards it , taking it ambling towards it, taking it for granted. so when keir starmer says exactly that shouldn't be complacent opinion polls come from nothing. i mean, they really for nothing. what

really counts ? there's only one really counts? there's only one opinion poll counts and opinion poll that counts and that's general election. and that's the general election. and the is, sunak, as the truth is, rishi sunak, as the truth is, rishi sunak, as the minister is going the prime minister is going to call the election late as call the election as late as possible, why is he going do possible, why is he going to do that? he's 20 points that? because he's 20 points behind opinion polls. so behind in the opinion polls. so he all time he can get he needs all the time he can get in order try to claw that in order to try to claw that lead back and at a minimum, try to prevent labour from getting an overall majority. so i think, look , it's game on still . the look, it's game on still. the big change that's happened in the last year or so and all credit to kyiv for this is labour's back on the pitch in the covid years it was on a different pitch, but it wasn't the pitch that the public had any resonance with. i think that's what's changed. alan milburn, thanks for. reflecting and bringing to bear your experience of being health secretary and your thoughts on the likelihood of that next labour government. thank you very much. thanks for watching. you won't get interviews like this with politicians anywhere else on british television. join me again next