for coming up on today's camilla tominey . i'll be asking business tominey. i'll be asking business secretary grant shapps for his reaction . liz truss is reaction. liz truss is extraordinary . 4000 words salvo extraordinary. 4000 words salvo in today's telegraph will also be speaking to labour's lord faulkner and in a brexit i'll be asking the tory spartans . they asking the tory spartans. they think brexit's been a success or a failure. all that and more to come. but first, here's the news . tatiana sanchez . camilla thank . tatiana sanchez. camilla thank you. this is the latest from the gb newsroom. liz truss claims

she wasn't given a realistic to act on her policies when she was in office. in her first major comments on her premiership since leaving number 10. writing in the sunday telegraph, the former prime minister says she wasn't blamed less than what happened, but blamed a lack of political support. she said she stands by her low tax agenda, calling it a from leftwards thinking within the party. ms. truss resigned after 49 days following economic turmoil caused by her mini budget . a key caused by her mini budget. a key witness in the search for missing mother of two, nicola bailey has come forward. that's to according officers appealed for a woman to come forward who was seen in the area on cctv wearing a yellow coat and pushing a pram. the search for the dog walker is entering its 10th day. her family have questioned a police theory that she fell into the river. wyre the head of the royal college of nursing, called on the prime minister to make new, meaningful

pay minister to make new, meaningful pay offer in order to avoid upcoming plans strikes. the nhs is facing what some are calling the biggest strike the service has ever seen as tens of thousands of nurses and ambulance staff in england are set to walk out tomorrow tuesday. the health secretary has called the action regrettable , saying it will regrettable, saying it will undoubtedly have an impact on patients , tv, online and, the patients, tv, online and, the abc plus radio. this is gb news. now it's back to camilla . now it's back to camilla. well, good morning on this sunday. sunday. thank you very much for joining sunday. sunday. thank you very much forjoining me. she's back. liz truss is back on the front pages of newspapers. those who thought the lady for turning or indeed well , thought the lady for turning or indeed well, she's certainly thought the lady for turning or indeed well , she's certainly not indeed well, she's certainly not for hiding . she's come out with for hiding. she's come out with this extraordinary 4000 word

salvo against the government justifying her premiership . be justifying her premiership. be very intrigued to know what you think of all that. are you in favour of trust in omics.7 did she get the economy right but not the execution? we'll not perhaps the execution? we'll be that and more be speaking about that and more a in the show. jam a little later in the show. jam packed we've got grant packed as ever. we've got grant shapps the business secretary. shapps, the business secretary. i'd be intrigued to know his reaction truss's reaction to liz truss's intervention, of intervention, but also of course, ongoing saga course, the ongoing saga involving secretary involving the justice secretary and bullying. dominic raab i'm also going to be speaking to labour's charles faulkner about the hopes trying to the party's hopes trying to achieve a blair like victory. lord faulkner was flatmates with tony blair. i'll be intrigued to know what he thinks about starmer comparison. and i'll also be speaking to the economist roger bootle. one of the that supported brexit. the few that supported brexit. and got some polling which and we've got some polling which suggests that you're not necessarily with how necessarily as happy with how brexit has gone as you should be. i'll be asking mr. what be. and i'll be asking mr. what he about the economic he thinks about the economic picture just through picture. let's just go through the headlines. all, the headlines. first of all, i've obviously already mentioned this major news on the front of the telegraph with liz the sunday telegraph with liz truss having written for the

papen truss having written for the paper. just make you can paper. just make sure you can see hit. truss i was see that hit. truss i was brought down by the left wing economic she economic establishment. she argues with nice new argues with a nice new photograph of her. she's come out hiding that . the mail out of hiding for that. the mail on sunday. two new clues in search for missing nicky. the story of this young mum having gone missing still hasn't been solved. so they've covered. they've also got this extraordinary story which the sun on sunday has got on the front. i'm the older woman who took harry's virginity again. that's discuss in just that's one to discuss in just a moment . sunday times , they're moment. sunday times, they're saying sunak threat to pull out of the shower. we've not heard that before from the prime. so that's an interesting angle that the prime minister now might be thinking. that's the only way to solve migrant crisis. piers solve the migrant crisis. piers the on sunday referred to the sun on sunday i referred to that now. they've done a that just now. they've done a joint seems, with the joint buy up, it seems, with the mail sunday the lady who mail on sunday for the lady who took virginity . that's took harry's virginity. that's the that keeps on giving the story that keeps on giving the story that keeps on giving the observer zero chance. tories will be pledge of 40 new hospitals. of course , was one of

hospitals. of course, was one of bofis hospitals. of course, was one of boris johnson's trademark during the leadership, and beyond that, he would build 40 more. i think the telegraph did a story that they've only started work on about six of them sunday mirror my tory mp slave again my hell as tory mp slave again an story about tory mps treatment of a housekeeper in his care. and then the sunday express. lives at risk after cancer plan is ditched and it's very appropriate i've got the sun express in my hands because i'm joined now by fleet street legend in our own lunchbox , eve legend in our own lunchbox, eve pollard, who once edited the sunday express and the sunday. let's get straight into a what have you chosen for your first story? well, you've got to go with liz truss. you have i mean, if i was liz truss, i'd be lying down the darkened room for another six months. but she's come out she says she's not blameless. says she wasn't given any advice about would any advice about what would happen pensions which of happen to pensions which of course, the first things that started collapse , she brought course, the first things that startdo collapse , she brought course, the first things that startdo we :ollapse , she brought course, the first things that startdo we believe , she brought course, the first things that startdo we believe here brought course, the first things that start do we believe her on rought course, the first things that start do we believe her on that?t out, do we believe her on that? i'm not sure, but i'd love to know. was the department, know. that was the department, none of you. well, but yes. and

of course , thinks she's got of course, thinks she's got another chance. is another person having a rishi? i mean, all these ex—prime ministers coming out having mean if not bofis coming out having mean if not boris making his interventions on ukraine and giving interviews it's now her when you said she should have laid low for a little longer that what you believe should we not really have heard from her for what a year and well, 44 days as a prime minister is some sort of record and fact, whatever you say tories are a very say the tories are a very difficult position now. it's attack your leader as it were right now. so early. you would have thought she might have waited. defence it seems to me that she is trying in a way reap rewrite her political letter. she helps by making this point . she helps by making this point. let me just pull out this particular quote, which i thought was interesting. she's talking about pushing water uphill when . came trying uphill when. it came to trying to her own economic to push her own economic policies. is partly because policies. this is partly because we failed to make we conservatives failed to make these enough, since these arguments enough, since 2010. saying that they 2010. she's saying that they were triangulating with labour

policy idea that the tories have gone to rent on economic policy . it's right that she's holding tory feet to the flames on this, isn't it? it is right. and of course she talks about she didn't realise how much vested interest was staged in the prop and the block of courses. they is that her way of referring to the civil service and the author doxy of all the sort of people on the financial side? and she's right in a way that we now seem to be in a country that believes in high and that will get out of trouble. and of course , when trouble. and of course, when they put this to the party members may not remember mps and said growth is good the party members put their hands up and said, we'll go for that . but of said, we'll go for that. but of course it was totally the wrong vote if you didn't go for it. you were in the anti growth coalition. i mean, is it a bit lacking in self—awareness is this, though, is she showing enough contrition? well, it's so much contrition, but timing is everything in politics as we know, this is too early too

soon. and you're bashing against a prime minister who's trying to say, i am going to make a difference, i'm going to change the way that the water is running, as it were, very early . very early to come out. too early . now, we've picked us over early. now, we've picked us over story of the weekend , this story of the weekend, this extraordinary tale where both the sun and, the mat appear to have tracked down the woman who really took harry's virginity. give us some context to this, because you've read spare and it was the gory details were in that were gorgeous elsewhere in that were gorgeous elsewhere in that course rupert that and of course rupert everett said everett the actor, said yesterday he knew who girl yesterday he knew who the girl was. turns out she sasha. it was working with the horses at highgrove , prince charles's highgrove, prince charles's home. now what is interesting she's rather sympathetic to harry. she said this was a fumble in the jungle. well, actually behind. yes she says it all to happen . happened within all to happen. happened within 15 minutes. yes. and it's fairly close to the description he has where he she treated me like stallion sat my round and went

on. yes. although there's one notable exception in that she isn't quite the older woman i had in mind. not mine, neither. so she's two years older than him, which actually makes her younger than meghan is exactly . younger than meghan is exactly. quite interesting. the kind quite interesting. like the kind of elder stateswoman . no, it of elder stateswoman. no, it wasn't the sort of courtesan who wasn't the sort of courtesan who was showing him the ropes and what is terrible , because when what is terrible, because when you read the story, he goes on, on they've never or texted or seen each other. no it's not ideal for your first outing. no it is maybe many people's first. it is maybe many people's first. i is like that. but it was a bit. yes, it was kind of like overin bit. yes, it was kind of like over in one episode and that was that. do we think that 718 pages of news copy should have been devoted to this? no but you know, the truth is this story took on a life of its own and it will play million to write a book.the will play million to write a book. the publishers want every single detail they can to it, and he gave it to them. but you're a former tabloid editor. did you look at the book and

think , is tmi too much think, is tmi too much information on many, many things 7 information on many, many things ? let's not go into all the details too much into information about his personal things , about his personal parts things, about his personal parts of his body. yes. what hospital you to give them everything. what did you do now? there's another interesting story . it's another interesting story. it's not related to his one night stand with sasha , but it is stand with sasha, but it is called operation harry in hurry. yes. tell me about that . well, yes. tell me about that. well, in the mail on sunday, they're saying and i think another paper they're saying that they now think that harry will come over from the coroner's mission, but on his own, he'll come for 48 hours. but the answer, i think, for the king very much wants him there. and i think he probably feels another perhaps a way to come. how may top of this terrible, terrible ride between them both and if he does fly over , i suppose it will be less over, i suppose it will be less of a circus. we'll see him, i hope, sitting with the royal family. but no, meghan . no

family. but no, meghan. no meghan and no. we hope. talk about what they and what you said, what and who was friendly or how much on that? i mean, i personally think it's unlikely meghan's going to turn up. i think they'd be very worried about a negative reception. correct. we've been in a situation where the king has twice egged twice been almost egged and there be there were there could be boos. there were boos some paul's boos outside some paul's cathedral. you remember. cathedral. if you remember. yeah, this time yeah, louder boos. this time round after that. i would think so. i think people are quite shocked. whatever the family don't wash of dirty in public is never a good although it does look reasonable by the king he just extends the invitation. yes, and it's in the sussexes call and then if they reject it, they then look unreasonable. they're in as difficult a position the royals in the position as the royals in the sense they're going to look truculent and like they're not trying kind calm, very trying to kind calm, very troubled waters. and they're are stories the paper this stories in the paper this morning america is starting morning that america is starting to of love them because to fall out of love them because they moan and, whine and they just moan and, whine and they just moan and, whine and the americans quite like royal family. they love the family. yes. they love the pictures. they love the passion

. well, don't like the . well, they don't like the curtain pulled curtain being pulled back ehhen curtain being pulled back either. they don't like either. i think they don't like this of oz esque this kind of wizard of oz esque expose harry. onto expose. harry. now, onto completely different matters. this front page of the sunday times on rishi sunak. this front page of the sunday times on rishi sunak . this is times on rishi sunak. this is interesting . we associate this interesting. we associate this thinking with the likes suella braverman well, not necessarily the prime minister, except i think . this is sunak the prime minister, except i think. this is sunak threat to pull out of the chl and that's if strasburg says that when we decide to go for whatever the rules are going to be, the new rules are going to be, the new rules about immigrants and whether you can land here, how legal you are, whether you can be sent straight back . if the be sent straight back. if the european court votes against us. he feels he can pull out of the convention . i think this is convention. i think this is a test of two things. immigration matters , a lot so many people in matters, a lot so many people in country, but also come matters a lot and i think they want to see some things started finished , some things started finished, completed and carried out . and i completed and carried out. and i think that's very important. i it's the issue he has to solve.

if he's got any hope of winning the next election if pull out. thank you very much indeed for joining me. lovely to see you this morning. well, there you have now, i'll be very have it. now, i'll be very, very intrigued to find out what are a gb news panel of people's panel which is currently in harlow, makes of liz truss's intervention catherine force our reporter is there. katherine watts. the talk of the morning in harlow . i know you've been in harlow. i know you've been chewing the fat on brexit, but basically on liz truss are not a huge amounts of sympathy . i have huge amounts of sympathy. i have to say we're here at. the master barrister restaurant in the centre of we come to harlow . centre of we come to harlow. harlow was one of the biggest brexit voting places the country they voted 68% to leave. let talk now to the manager of the mass we scott . scott thank you mass we scott. scott thank you very much for joining mass we scott. scott thank you very much forjoining us. can you tell us how's business and also what challenges are you facing at the moment? the business has been really good for us. we're in a prime location in in harlow and we've

got great value customers that use us. however the cost of living as affected our business. business rates have gone up . the business rates have gone up. the utility bills have gone up , food utility bills have gone up, food and produce costs gone up. and therefore, we have pay our pnces therefore, we have pay our prices up, which then stops people to spend their money with us in harlow of difficult time for many people. thank you scott . let's now go and meet our panel . let's now go and meet our panel. just follow me over here . good morning. thank you very much for coming . talk to us on much for coming. talk to us on gb news this morning so we've been talking about brexit years on keith you are a retired chartered you voted leave. how did you feel it's been going well, i think so far so good . well, i think so far so good. but the benefits of brexit will depend on a myriad of small changes in the economy. some large ones, but some small ones. a lot of small ones. and i think that will take time. so, you know, five or ten years, i give it before making a final

decision on whether was a success or too soon to say and okay you also voted leave you work as an administrator so in the local hospital how do you feel it's going and are you satisfied? at the moment? i think it's too to say i don't think it's too to say i don't think last three years have been a true reflection because yes, if two years we shut the economy down. we paid healthy people to stay at. and a lot of those people actually haven't come back into the workplace. so it's definitely too soon to say . and definitely too soon to say. and fraser, your project manager and you actually voted remain, would you actually voted remain, would you still stand by that? has it been a disaster no? i mean, yes, i did. vote remain. my daughter's in budapest, so it made sense me to vote. remain but seeing the way that the european union have acted towards britain and the negotiate options and know negotiate options and you know what they continue to do. no, i'd vote leave if i was asked . i'd vote leave if i was asked. interesting now we're going to be talking to business secretary grant shapps in just a couple of moments. and kate , you'd like to moments. and kate, you'd like to

know you've got concerns about immigration, haven't you? yeah i think the underlying vote on brexit was to be able to control our borders. i do feel that the only thing controlling our borders now is the way the we're paying borders now is the way the we're paying a of people stay in hotels that paying a of people stay in hotels tha t £40 a week pocket hotels that £40 a week pocket money. what is the government's intentions with these people because they've got no documentations based unemployable because you can't check yes or other what a lot of people very concerned about people very concerned about people crossing the channel in small boats on case you were talking earlier your concern about the level of spending . yes about the level of spending. yes i mean not so willing civil servant sir humphrey appleby used to say the treasury , he used to say the treasury, he doesn't work out what he needs to spend and then think of ways to spend and then think of ways to raise the tax the treasury raises much tax as he can and then works out ways to spend it . i'd like to know what the government is going to do about cutting public spending because it is , i promise you, how to it is, i promise you, how to control . that's an excellent

control. that's an excellent invitation from. yes, prime minister and obviously classic phrase that you are also about level of taxation . yeah i mean level of taxation. yeah i mean similar to what keith had just said, it's you know, relating to raising corporation tax , but yet raising corporation tax, but yet we're trying to attract entrepreneurs and start—ups to britain. it doesn't quite tally how how that's going to work. thank all very much. so lots of questions for the business secretary. and we'll be back with you later. but back to you for the moment. thank you very much for that. that was catherine force. our political correspondent in harlow. we went to harlow because it was one of the areas that voted most leave . a little later in the show i'm going to be speaking to two different people about brexit and ifs different people about brexit and it's panned out. we've and how it's panned out. we've got a special report with me speaking to some tory spartans got a special report with me speakihow3 some tory spartans got a special report with me speakihow3 some tonit's artans got a special report with me speakihow3 some tonit's been; about how they think it's been a success or failure. but i've also got professor goodwin coming in. he's professor of coming in. he's the professor of politics the university kent, politics at the university kent, who of polling for gb who does a lot of polling for gb news. got some really news. it's got some really interesting about

interesting findings about what you about how the project you think about how the project has gone not overwhelmingly successful , your eyes, successful, your eyes, unfortunately, and i'm also going to be speaking to the economist roger bootle about the economic as you be well economic as you will be well aware and i had this a bit in the week because i had a bit of a row without a soubry about the economic impact of brexit. the remainers like to blame everything brexit and i'm everything on brexit and i'm going bootle whether going to ask mr. bootle whether he that. don't he agrees with that. don't forget you can apply forget that you can apply yourself be the political yourself to be on the political people's panel it's gbnews.uk forward slash panel . we want to forward slash panel. we want to hear your views from around the country. isn't just a london centric show. the whole point about news is that it's about gb news is that it's a people's channel. so that's what we hear from you we want to hear from you equally. you've any equally. if you've got any opinions all my interviews opinions at all on my interviews or the political scene this week, or indeed liz truss's intervention , please intervention, then please do email me gb views at gbnews.uk now, typically we're waiting for the minister grant shapps to get on the line. he's coming to us following another interview . so following another interview. so in meantime, i'm going in the meantime, i'm going to bnng in the meantime, i'm going to bring pollard in just bring eve pollard back in just

to off one of the stories to finish off one of the stories that mentioned the paper that we did mentioned the paper review. watercooler review. now it's the watercooler story of the weekend. what are we all talking about, eve? we are talking about the happy valley series, which is going to end tonight . and we're all going end tonight. and we're all going to be watching it. i mean, it's one of the best series that's been on for and been on tv for years. and there's a really interesting story, it's in the story, i think it's in the observer from child now, observer from the child now, teenager who plays the grandson it is the central character really that toby royce the criminal trying get his hands on this job to take him abroad take him abroad to malaga or marbella. i think it and he saying that he was in the dark about what wainwright the script writer going to plan for this grand finale . so there's grand finale. so there's a number of different theories doing the rounds and there were secret apparently many people who actually acting in this who are actually acting in this don't know how it's going to end so that's so exciting i know the versatility actually of the actress sarah lancashire who is starring in this show is brilliant. she's great. absolutely and absolutely captivated and

perhaps given the perhaps actually given the police a good advert at a time when it needs a bit of a morale boost for five straight then the police is at an all low and yet faith in pc cathie wood as she is known, is at an all time zero. yes exactly. i was also interested to ask you, eve, with your former editor's hat on what your former editor's hat on what you make of brexit three years on. i was in the weeks went to an event that bill cash it an event that saw bill cash it organised with all of the tory heroes sceptics of heroes sceptics sort of celebrating third celebrating the third anniversary from the anniversary of our exit from the eu and we're going to watch that in a while in the show. it's in a while in the show. but it's the view is here and i think the feeling amongst leavers not just remainers who kind of want to say told you so is that it's been bit of a disaster. it's been bit of a disaster. it's been slow. i mean , on the one been slow. i mean, on the one hand where the economic where the freeports , where all these the freeports, where all these exciting things that were going to change this country , to change this country, particularly in the levelling up situation and number two, i mean, everybody says we have no ambulances because all the ambulances because all the

ambulances were italian drivers , all the nurses were remain . , all the nurses were remain. and, you know, that's obviously simplification because we know there are millions of brits who've not gone back to work since. but there is that that the rest france is struggling to find chefs , that people are find chefs, that people are struggling to find people . and struggling to find people. and that's damaging the economy at the moment . i that's damaging the economy at the moment. i guess that's damaging the economy at the moment . i guess there are the moment. i guess there are a lot of people i was very sceptical about brexit, but we wanted see something happen and this was a great vote, an extraordinary vote and then it all went quiet . and i think all went quiet. and i think that's what people are sad about that's what people are sad about that not more is happened. yes are people angry, do you think, with boris having with boris johnson having squandered great squandered this great opportunity, mean, from a opportunity, i mean, from a tabloid , tiff, this tabloid prospect, tiff, this this gold dust . he makes this guy is gold dust. he makes for copy. yes. cheering for good copy. yes. cheering lives. and there is a story and yet this 80 seat majority has been squandered. reports in the week that basically only really amounts majority now. amounts a 20 seat majority now. well he had and of well of he had covid and of course had ukraine and he's

actually on ukraine been brilliant but the trouble is there's this huge government we are told all the about the blob thousands of people we don't understand okay he's a prime minister there is a cabinet. there's only so many people we don't understand why nobody else is working hard to make this happen. and that's when we start believe the blob because we think all the civil service behind the government who's really running britain. and i think as what's been interesting and there's been a shift and maybe it's because shadow chancellor rachael rees but would you have imagined at a time when you were editing the sunday express that people would now be associating labour as being the low tax . never, never being the low tax. never, never . i mean it's extraordinary of course the more. jeremy hunt rishi sunak say lowering tax. now, that's the last thing they've got to understand . you they've got to understand. you know, we're more sophisticated now if they're saying this and they lower it six months before they lower it six months before the election , too little, too

the election, too little, too late. you think people think it's a cynical ploy of course. mean, you know, just after we elect them in there, remove . elect them in there, remove. you've got to be cleverer than that. you've got to be cleverer than that . i think you've got to be cleverer than that. i think everything's if is taking too long i'm going to have grant shapps on hopefully shortly. we're just waiting him to get miked up and the camera ready. what do you think i should ask in? i mean, bearing in mind this liz truss intervention isn't great for the current sitting government. well, how he. he's well, i'd ask him how he. he's in the cabinet. they must feel that they're at stake and every in the cabinet. they must feel thati hey're at stake and every in the cabinet. they must feel thati think at stake and every in the cabinet. they must feel thati think he'stake and every in the cabinet. they must feel thati think he's goodand every in the cabinet. they must feel thati think he's good toi every in the cabinet. they must feel thati think he's good to go.ery day i think he's good to go. thank very much indeed again thank you very much indeed again for morning at for your time this morning at sea now, grant shapps the business joins business secretary i hope joins me now. can you hear me, minister? loud and clear , grant. minister? loud and clear, grant. great stuff. look, i need to ask you about ms. truss writing , you about ms. truss writing, this 4000 word piece in the sunday telegraph today, basically accusing conservatives of being triangular voted with labour on economic policy. of being triangular voted with labour on economic policy . do labour on economic policy. do you recognise that characterisation , your response characterisation, your response to her piece ? no. look, i think

to her piece? no. look, i think that liz's instincts are very conservative in the sense that we want to see taxes lowered over a period of time. but i think recognises we've been through , you know, hell with through, you know, hell with coronavirus us which added what £400 billion at least of expenditure. we then had a war in ukraine has pushed up energy pnces in ukraine has pushed up energy prices and inflation and be very very costly . we're paying right very costly. we're paying right now about a third of people's energy prices thanks to this distress . liz truss putting that distress. liz truss putting that in place. the households and for business, all of that costs money. we need to deal with that. we need to deal with the high inflation and grow the economy, bring down debt. we'll be able cut taxes as well. but you need to do it in that order. some people might say you've had 12 to 30 years to solve these issues. mr. shapps and actually it's all too little late to win the next general election . well, the next general election. well, because no one predicted coronavirus and the enormous

costs to individual and economies and no one wanted to see putin illegally invade . and see putin illegally invade. and these are expensive things. and by the way, what's happening to us is what the rest of the world is experiencing in the west as well. it's expensive for lots of economies and it would have been the same no matter who was power. the difference is our instinct is to make sure that we get the budgets under control. we're doing that and not just the economic measures that i just discussed, but also cutting the nhs waiting lists , stopping the nhs waiting lists, stopping the nhs waiting lists, stopping the small boats. i think , by the the small boats. i think, by the way, labour have voted against every single time they've been given opportunity , although given the opportunity, although not making enough progress on the 40 hospitals that were built. mr. apparently works barely started on any of them andifs barely started on any of them and it's highly unlikely they're going to be finished within the time, saying frame set by boris johnson . well, let's wait and johnson. well, let's wait and see. we still got, what, up to nearly two years potentially , nearly two years potentially, but certainly a year and a half

to go to hospital in two years time. and there is a lot of work work . well, often it was it was work. well, often it was it was a building and refurbishing hospitals . it's a huge amount of hospitals. it's a huge amount of work underway. for example, in my local area, we've seen actually outside of that particular program, we've seen new diagnostics come in in recent times just up the road for me at the lister in stevenage, we've seen massive new investments there for that hospital and seeing the same across the country. so we're putting record amounts into the nhs. the big priority right now is to the waiting lists that is to cut the waiting lists that built up through coronavirus is to cut the waiting lists that built ieveryoneh coronavirus is to cut the waiting lists that built ieveryone was'onavirus is to cut the waiting lists that built ieveryone was stuck'us is to cut the waiting lists that built ieveryone was stuck at home when everyone was stuck at home and we're making progress there as got rid the as well. we've got rid of the two year lists. we're on two year waiting lists. we're on targets. rid of the 18 month targets. get rid of the 18 month waiting think by this waiting lists. i think by this april. we're making april. so we're we are making a lot of progress . but april. so we're we are making a lot of progress. but think lot of progress. but i think this prime minister can be credited with staying situation after the invasion and all of the or all of the political machinations of the autumn , if machinations of the autumn, if it is stabilised it a stabilised cabinet though when you've lost

your party chairman and there are continued stories about dominic robb's alleged bullying and now jacob rees—mogg said earlier in the week that he thought some of his might be behaving as snowflakes. do you share that view ? look, that's share that view? look, that's the whole point . having a proper the whole point. having a proper independent investigation into these things. i don't want to see a situation where the moment that somebody says something, everyone says, oh, that's it, they should be suspended. you've got to you've got to have a proper process in place. right. and that's what this process gives. it gives us the summary looking this properly looking at all of this properly , tell you from , i can only tell you from personal only personal experience i've only ever being very ever seen in being very including not to me, but to other officials in the room , other officials in the room, certainly very determined. this is knows what he wants is a person knows what he wants to get of the out the to get out of the out of the system and. you know, i think , system and. you know, i think, yeah, the investigation will get to the bottom of all of that . to the bottom of all of that. but in any other surely, minister, he would have been suspending pended the investec

ation. why is he still working these people who have accused him of this bad behaviour allegedly? well what i'm saying is i don't think anybody watching would think it was fair that if somebody or even a series of people made accusations . and by the way, accusations. and by the way, there are people who say that's not true. also very senior civil servants are saying that's not true. if that's all it took to get you suspended and destroy your and i'm not true your career. and i'm not true about a politician talking about anyone so i think is anyone here. so i think it is right follow a proper process right to follow a proper process rather the rather than just jump the conclusion actually conclusion without actually having evidence . i having any of the evidence. i think the systems in place, i think the systems in place, i think that's important. and look, i just back to your original point this is absolutely determined to get on with the job as the prime minister outlined and he's been very clear about what we want to see happen. we want to halve inflation. we're on track do that. we want to make sure we get in the economy. get growth in the economy. that's thing doing that's the thing that i'm doing as secretary, scaling as business secretary, scaling up to up britain, trying to bring growth economy through growth into, the economy through all the great tech leads we

all of the great tech leads we have, want to cut debt. we have, we want to cut debt. we want to ensure that we cut the waiting nhs was waiting times in the nhs was succeeding there now we succeeding there now and we want to stop small boats. to stop the small boats. something, say labour have something, as i say labour have zero interest doing in the zero interest in doing in the pubuc zero interest in doing in the public but this is this public really. but this is this is a just this is a distraction though isn't it, minister, in the there's an the sense that there's an anonymous minister anonymous cabinet minister quoted in the telegraph today saying dominic robb should go. was that you you know, it certainly wasn't . and it's only certainly wasn't. and it's only a distraction if that's you want to talk about in this interview if you actually i reckon most people probably do want to talk about what we're doing to tackle the waiting after the nhs waiting lists after covid or stopping the small boats and the illegal gangs who are trafficking people to this country . i think those are country. i think those are probably the issues that actually far more people. i think think, minister, to be think i think, minister, to be fair people people small fair people people on small boats say, well, you've been in power for than a decade. why haven't stopped already haven't you stopped them already ? because these are people coming over by illegal gangs who are trafficking them because .

are trafficking them because. every time we tried to change the law, we've been blocked by labourin the law, we've been blocked by labour in part through through their influence , including in their influence, including in their influence, including in the house of lords. i know we were in power, but in the house of lords. we don't have a majority sometimes through the courts through lawyers, courts and through lawyers, constantly challenging what we're saying and what we're . and we're saying and what we're. and so that's the reason why it's taken a long time. but our determination to fix that problem is absent irresolute. you will not get that with a labour government . actually, labour government. actually, frankly seem to be want to do anything but stop the small boats . they vote against every boats. they vote against every single measure that we take to stop them . the former home stop them. the former home secretary priti patel, writing today in the papers, has said that the government does have the tools it needs but it's not using them. you at home, albeit for a brief period. mr. shapps the government is not doing enough on this. perhaps you agree with the prime minister that we should leaving the that we should be leaving the all yeah, i was actually for all

of six days i did have the to look at this and i can see that it requires a whole range of different things to happen and work, including, by the way , the work, including, by the way, the plan that says that if you come here illegally without , you here illegally without, you know, through a route which is not a conventional legal route into the country, then you cannot you cannot claim asylum. now is something that we want to legislate for . now is something that we want to legislate for. i now is something that we want to legislate for . i know a lot of legislate for. i know a lot of lawyers talk about whether it's compatible with international. that's what we are testing out. and no one should doubt self—determination to this self—determination to get this problem fixed. it's right up there, as i, say, in one of the top five priorities for a minister, 45,000 people, a dinghy is last year. it's not working, though, is it ? that's working, though, is it? that's that's right. i mean, there are there are criminal gangs out there, unfortunately, who will people traffic and. we have to stop that and to do that we need to change the law. frankly, it be a lot faster and a lot easier if the opposition if labour us

they won't. so i have to battle it through parliament. we're having to through the courts having to it through the courts and i think rishi sunak steely determination to fix this problem is really important to the british people . finally you the british people. finally you were tory chairman from 2012 to 2015. who was your pick to replace nadhim zahawi . i'll replace nadhim zahawi. i'll leave that one to the to the prime minister. that will be his call . you know, it is a big job call. you know, it is a big job to do. i was chairman , as you to do. i was chairman, as you said, up to the 2015 election that david cameron won. and i know that it is 24 seven job. but it will be for the prime minister to decide who he wants to put in that. and i wish whoever he or she is the best of luck . what do you think their luck. what do you think their top priority should be when it comes to winning the election in 2024 ? well, i think one of the 2024? well, i think one of the biggest jobs of the chairman is to go and explain a, what we've done, and i'll plan to help

people. and i think actually, the great thing for whoever the incoming chairman is, they'll have a brilliant platform because are the because our priorities are the people's priorities. you know , people's priorities. you know, getting growth into the economy , halving inflation, actually being able to reduce debt over the longer run, cutting the nhs waiting lists, stopping the small boats . these are the small boats. these are the things people care about . and things people care about. and only the conservatives going to deliver that. so chairman will be out there . i see him across be out there. i see him across the country selling message and thatis the country selling message and that is the job of a as a policy chairman as well as organising the campaign. as i well know , the campaign. as i well know, wouldn't want to ever do that job again. wish whoever does job again. i wish whoever does do it, every success and i'll certainly be lending them all of my help. yes. no answer. certainly be lending them all of my help. yes. no answer . yes or my help. yes. no answer. yes or no answer. mr. shapps should johnson do that . job i don't johnson do that. job i don't think you want to be doing that job. having been prime minister. i doubt he would be for it. that's a no that. all right. thank you very much for joining me . and you never know, right ?

me. and you never know, right? thank you. oh so you're not ruling it out? it's not a no, it's a maybe . ruling it out? it's not a no, it's a maybe. i'm sorry ruling it out? it's not a no, it's a maybe . i'm sorry about it's a maybe. i'm sorry about johnson. who knows? but i don't think it's very likely. well who knows it. thank you very much. that's grant shapps , the that's grant shapps, the business secretary joining me there . coming up on the show, there. coming up on the show, i'm going to be speaking to charles faulkner, the former justice secretary, also going to be to professor matt be taking to professor matt goodwin. he's got exclusive goodwin. he's got some exclusive polling . and we're going to go polling. and we're going to go back the people's panel back to the people's panel harlow. tuned . oh, sorry , harlow. stay tuned. oh, sorry, sorry. nope, we don't we change the whole agenda do. excuse me . the whole agenda do. excuse me. we're going straight to lord faulkner because grant shapps is a bit late, and that means we're not having the break. so do a pardon me, lord faulkner. i was just getting ready. relax, people, relax. we would like bnng people, relax. we would like bring you on because . as said, bring you on because. as i said, for case, government for the case, the government minister out our minister has knocked out our timing. i'd like to know timing. now i'd like to know your response this page story your response to this page story involving truss. she's involving liz truss. she's talking about how truss nomics wasn't a bad thing. perhaps the

could have been better , but could have been better, but actually she's not issuing so much as a mea culpa here, a defence of her own economic policy. do you buy it? no, i do. i think she was fundamentally wrong in her economic policy. what she was saying was cut taxes and growth will go up. and the made it clear the the obama made it clear the growth would be obtained growth that would be obtained by, tax reductions would by, her tax reductions would be some minuscule amount that would be eroded as far as be completely eroded as far as individual members of the public were the massive were concerned by the massive increase their, example, increase in their, for example, mortgage rates . what i worry mortgage rates. what i worry aboutis mortgage rates. what i worry about is presumably a liz truss is a powerful voice in the tory the sunday telegraph has devoted pages and pages to this rishi sunak a weak prime minister. he hasn't got control of his party. if she. let me finish . she meant if she. let me finish. she meant that if she represents a powerful force, are we going to have deluded trust in nomics again as , in forming the way again as, in forming the way that this government, the sunak government runs the economy. and look at shapps you've just.

sorry applause mr. grant shapps yes , i mean, he didn't. he yes, i mean, he didn't. he didn't do anything. he makes a point, doesn't she, about stagnation and idea that successive governments, including the one that you were involved in. yes have not been able to push growth higher because of this idea of treasury orthodoxy that the markets are going to baulk at anything a bit economically creative . so does economically creative. so does that mean do the wrong thing? is that mean do the wrong thing? is that the idea? you do this in a complete expert and right now, look , everybody, know it is look, everybody, we know it is rising , look, everybody, we know it is rising, what, 37.5 to gdp . rising, what, 37.5 to gdp. everybody wants it to come down, but only when we can afford it. so are you going to cut taxes or cut? only when we can afford it and only when we can afford it. why aren't you ever giving any flesh on the bones of any of your economic policies? you your own economic policies? you stand from the and this is what the viewers and you throw the viewers think. and you throw stones. yet we haven't heard stones. and yet we haven't heard anything or cogent anything particularly or cogent from either keir starmer or rachel are labour's rachel reeves. what are labour's plans stagnation plans to solve this stagnation cry? first of all, we're going to boost the economy with

cry? first of all, we're going to boost the economy wit h £28 to boost the economy with £28 billion a whole of billion spent on a whole of changes that will improve the climate change issues , the climate change issues, the environmental issues. and they will not only do that, they will also bring a massive boost to the economy but not a boost, but only helps the rich and not boost, which makes the market. i noficed boost, which makes the market. i noticed that this trust is now calling the market conspiracy of lefties which seems to me to be mad . well, the anti growth mad. well, the anti growth coalition, i think i think could look at your headline trust. i was brought down by the quote left wing establishment these are these are the people who own bondsis are these are the people who own bonds is that what you had in mind? well, i think she's talking about the blob, which may be left leaning. can i make one other thing? yes, please do what you about what it tell you about liz truss, is not that she was truss, is it not that she was more about how is to more concerned about how is to be remembered rather than what's best for the economy. so you've got oh, she's just an alternative economic argument . alternative economic argument. let's get onto other matters. okay i'm interested because of

you having a formerjustice secretary, you think of secretary, what you think of dominic raab, your successor , dominic raab, your successor, whether have stood whether he should have stood aside while this investigation was out . would agree was carried out. would you agree with that everyone's with mr. shapps that everyone's innocent until proven guilty, which legal man you which as a legal man you probably oh every probably agree with? oh every sentence until proven guilty. probably agree with? oh every sentenialsoitil proven guilty. probably agree with? oh every sentenialsoitil pto¢en guilty. probably agree with? oh every sentenialsoitil pto dealuilty. probably agree with? oh every sentenialsoitil pto deal with the you've also got to deal with the practical serious allegations practical if serious allegations are made. and for example, if you said somebody might be intimidate eating staff, you've got to work out until you discover the person has done it or not. what's the safest course? because you might found at the end of the day, dump it. have you had any dealings with him? how did you find it? i find him? how did you find it? i find him perfectly okay . when meet him perfectly okay. when i meet him, at a point. him, i we're now at a point. i where we've only got a few or a few weeks to go before mr. adam tolley of queen's counsel determines whether not the allegations are true and what should be done. but is it is it is it a little bit late to be talking now about suspension? because to you, maybe it's next week. i just don't know. but have we got a problem? senior

politicians speaking to members of staff and civil servants and a degree . what jacob rees—mogg a degree. what jacob rees—mogg has described as snow flake creeping in. i mean , do you creeping in. i mean, do you worry that they can't cope with firm direction? doesn't it depend the facts? does it? people shouldn't able to say to the people working for them, this is what i want. i want to be clear about it. i'm treated with respect, but expect with respect, but i expect delivery. that's perfect , delivery. that's a perfect, reasonable do. and reasonable thing to do. and if i'm getting delivery, say, i'm not getting delivery, i say, look, not good enough. look, this is not good enough. that picking that is different. picking on junior of staff, humiliating them and making their life absolutely . allegedly at. i'm absolutely. allegedly at. i'm not saying that's what. yes mr. raabis not saying that's what. yes mr. raab is doing. i'm saying that's where the line sort of falls one way or the other. you can't determine what happened in an individual case. hence tolley, looking at it, you were flatmates for tony blair back the day and you would have been very familiar with the tactics of the likes of, say, alastair campbell, who wasn't afraid of expressing pretty expressing an opinion pretty robustly . i'm afraid of robustly. i'm afraid of complaining about that. no, i'm

not complaining. we told you we like opinions you express opinions robustly. indeed indeed. so robustly but politely , but i think still would not remove totally a bully in any way. right okay. but he did express himself pretty robustly with staff. it was my understanding . all right. well, understanding. all right. well, this is where i'm saying the line is drawn well into maybe people back in his day taken his direction and his directness , direction and his directness, perhaps in a more convivial spirit than this is a red herring . alastair was very herring. alastair was very popular with his staff. he was somebody who was respected as being fair . yes, he wanted high being fair. yes, he wanted high standards from staff. everybody should want high standards from the people who work for them. that's not bullying what is bullying is people unfairly, but people don't feel safe with that. and i'm not saying that's what happened with dominic raab. i'm saying is mr. tolley has got to work out what was actually and if he was vile to the staff and if he was vile to the staff and made them feel terrified,

then it's a horrible thing to do. he shouldn't be the justice secretary, but equally it meant he wasn't getting the best out of the civil service, which is what you need, as we've just been talking about. blair and that blair campbell era, do you worry that keir starmer doesn't have and can't have his charisma and can't people over the top, as blair did , 1997? people over the top, as blair did ,1997? blair was a very sort did, 1997? blair was a very sort of politician and there aren't very many of them. and if you look back over the last sort of 30 or 40 years, maybe one or two in all of that period, but that does not mean that keir does not reflect and, connect with what the public are feeling about for the public are feeling about for the public, connect with him as easily as they did with blair. well, he had a had an exceptional ability to connect with the public at keita's in a different position at a different position at a different time. a different position because he's been in opposition over a long period of he's got to get to a point where the public have made up their mind whether they want to change the government. i think it's a

different sort of period, tony. the leader of the opposition at a point where the tory government was already discredited , keir became the discredited, keir became the leader of the opposition after bofis leader of the opposition after boris johnson won a massive landslide . he over time has landslide. he over time has built a position where he is now 20 percentage points, had opinion but done it by quite rightly being in the right, has doneit rightly being in the right, has done it on the back of tory failures. that's had a large part to do with it. but the pubuc part to do with it. but the public are willing to trust him as a potential prime. talking of the public, we've got some really the public really polling from the public and gb viewers about brexit and 49% of them don't think it's going well. how does labour handle brexit? because we heard david lammy a speech in which he talked about return to a situation of alignment with the eu which will be anathema people in the red wall, let's be honest . what's on how . what's your view on how brexit's and how labour should handle this moving forward? brexit is taking place. i think the last thing the public want is any sort of rerunning of the

brexit issue. we've decided to brexit. we've done it, we've now got to make it work. so i'm strongly against any suggestion of going back into european union, going back the single market, having a rerun of the referendum . but of course we referendum. but of course we should do as much as we can to be as close our european allies as as we can be. i don't think the conservative brexiteers were saying we're enemies europe and quite separately we want to trade with europe. they're one of our major competitors and trading . so we need to work as trading. so we need to work as hard as we can with the european union to reduce trade barriers as much as possible . i think if as much as possible. i think if labour becomes , the government, labour becomes, the government, then i suspect the europeans will think we can have a much more grown up and sensible conversation about the european union, be rubbing their hands together with glee because sir keir starmer, in his capacity as shadow brexit secretary did as much as he could to frustrate the brexit process. but sir keir

starmer, in his capacity to lead the opposition, has made it clear accept brexit. clear that we accept brexit. there's going surely we there's no going back. surely we should have as friendly a relationship possible and one that reduces trade barriers as much as possible without giving back control to the european commission in the european union, which is what so much irked so many people . and i just irked so many people. and i just don't think the europeans think the conservatives are serious about all of this and that the european bureaucrats of the european bureaucrats of the european opening their sunday telegraph this morning. i think , good god, liz truss is back. i know there's always a room for a political comeback, as you well know. indeed. thank you very, very much for here in the studio this morning. well, as you know it's been nearly three years since the uk officially left the eu and as i've mentioned, we've been speaking week to a number of who've been at the forefront of who've been at the forefront of that debate , how brexit is of that debate, how brexit is going . on tuesday night i went going. on tuesday night i went to a european foundation

reception to mark the anniversary hosted by sir bill cash, a tory mp who's been campaigning for us to leave the eu since before it was fashionable . and i got to speak fashionable. and i got to speak to some of the big beasts behind brexit. you have been the advisers and the movers of this revolution and. well done so far. but ladies , gentlemen, it's far. but ladies, gentlemen, it's only just start it. we have a lot to do and a lot to prove. the third one of us, three of us leaving the eu on celebration of some of brexit's true believers. among the political of the past few months, this should have been a moment for them to savour . some of the people in the room behind me have spent their entire political careers fighting for brexit. a lot of them are the spartans that voted down theresa may's deal and they have dedicated their political careers to making sure that we leave the eu. but three years on, from that anniversary , do on, from that anniversary, do they think brexit has been a success. or does the government need to do more to make the most

of our post—brexit opportunities? former ireland secretary theresa villiers. i know that there's a lot more that we need to get to make sure that we need to get to make sure that brexit is a success. i know it can be. but i think it's great that we restored our status as an independent and self—governing nation and we can no longer have laws imposed on us by people we don't elect in court . former tory leader sir court. former tory leader sir ian duncan—smith. the bill going through that gets rid of european law that's been delivered. you know , got a bill delivered. you know, got a bill sitting in the lords to deliver on northern ireland and we can get that through. so there are things happening, but of course we can really make the uk home when we've done these things. but thanks to covid, it's taking longer than we anticipated. for many, the northern ireland protocol remains of the main pieces of unfinished business. former brexit minister david jones. well, i think we need to make clear to the european union

we will not continue with a state affairs whereby northern a part of the uk is subject to a foreign administration and subject to the jurisdiction of foreign court. and what we ought to be doing is pressing on with the northern ireland protocol bill, which has gone through the commons, which is now in the lords. there was a clear sense among the room that the institutions run by remainers were preventing what they see as a true brexit. the former brexit minister, david jones, again on the house of lords to crack on with northern ireland protocol bill to push it through the house of lords. to tell the lords that they won't pass it. then we will invoke the parliament act if necessary, we'll consider abolishing them. and with question marks growing oven and with question marks growing over, the prime minister , there over, the prime minister, there were even calls for the return of another. the former mep david campbell—bannerman. know the party still loves boris . the party still loves boris. the pubuc party still loves boris. the public does generally . he has public does generally. he has lost a few people as . true. but lost a few people as. true. but i would watch his speech because

i would watch his speech because i think that's huge pressure building to bring him back in triumph because the polls are so dire now. nearly % behind labour dire now. nearly% behind labour that we need rescuing in what role as prime minister minister. i mean i think that is viable. we don't know if he wants to do it or not. so with more internal powers over europe that don't look like going away any time soon. where does this leave the conservative party? the telegraph's chris hope. brexit is a state of mind. really? it's about giving power back to sovereignty back to britons to run their own affairs . and if run their own affairs. and if they can't do it properly , i do they can't do it properly, i do wonder whether brexit is such a great responsibility. it's too much the tory party. and maybe it's labour's chance to do what they can do. but i'm not sure this government deliver on this government can deliver on what is. what could what the problem is. what could be. there's no mistaking the celebratory in celebratory atmosphere in the room people from the democrats room. people from the democrats perspective, how grateful that we can now self—govern and that we're an independent nation from

the eu. however as with the electorate, i do some frustration. the brexiteers in the room want things to have happen more quickly . they want happen more quickly. they want us to maximise the opportunity. so is that the case that brexit has been done? i think it's more of a case. they believe on brexit. there's a hell of a lot more we have to do . what if the more we have to do. what if the brexit spartans are a little frustrated at it? i'm wondering how you're feeling now . let me how you're feeling now. let me bnngin how you're feeling now. let me bring in professor matt goodwin. he's done some exclusive brexit polling gb news by people polling gb news by people polling his polling firm and actually map makes for quite interesting reading this talk us through the top headlines i thought this was the most interesting you asked you ask people whether they felt brexit made them richer and did they say yeah well very few people do feel that brexit made them ficher. feel that brexit made them richer . if we go back to that richer. if we go back to that referendum, of course, of the big arguments was that leaving

the eu would make us better economically. only 2% of the country. yeah, 2% feel that brexit has them richer. almost half the country that it's made them poorer. the rest say the same. it hasn't really made a what would worry me were i within the brexit camp is that only 5% of leavers say that brexit has made them rich here now you could respond to that and say, well look, brexit was a long term. people said they were going to wait for those long term effects to kick in, but currently really only very small numbers . voters feel that brexit numbers. voters feel that brexit is making them post be better off, although we can. i suppose , as grant shapps did earlier blame global headwinds and all the rest of it, but their sense of frustration that the government done enough on it to deliver people were promised. i think there definitely a lot of that. i think also you look at the leavers become the leavers who have become remainers over the last three years, the main reason for that is not just about immigration reaching record levels, not just

about the small boats, not about the sort of chaos in westminster. it has been shown in another study this week that it's mainly this sense that the economy has been weakened over the last three years. so this flipped a few leavers into remainers now important to point out for your viewers camilla that of leavers have not changed their minds. lots of leavers have said. i still think actually on balance, brexit is helping the country and we should remember that big faction of the elites . but there are a of the elites. but there are a growing number of leavers who are now flipping into the other side of this debate. and even if not flipping, this is an interesting finding. when asked whether the uk got a bad deal from the eu , only 4% of the from the eu, only 4% of the pubuc from the eu, only 4% of the public say that we got a good deal public say that we got a good deal. now this is rather echoing former brexit secretary david davis saying in the week he referred to the deal and said it was i'm going to say it like that a sunday morning and you look at that and you think, well, you negotiated it.

admittedly, it turned from he wanted the chequers deal wanted into the chequers deal and rest is history but and the rest is history but there's a lot of frustration again with the government's mishandling this seemingly mishandling of this seemingly from very beginning . i think from the very beginning. i think that's absolutely spot if . we that's absolutely spot on if. we ask you think brexit ask people, do you think brexit has managed or badly has been managed well or badly large majorities ? now about 60% large majorities? now about 60% plus say they think brexit is being managed badly. is being managed badly. there is a sense out there , the country sense out there, the country that entire process from that this entire process from 2016 onwards has just been badly by the political class, so that without that has happened. but i think there's also a sense among a not insignificant number of leavers that this deal was just simply the wrong that they envisaged. i think a clean break from europe. i think they look at the european courts, i think they look at the european convention on human rights , convention on human rights, think they look at our inability to, take tough action with the small . and i think they're small boats. and i think they're just saying, look, thought we just saying, look, i thought we were control. thought just saying, look, i thought we we|were control. thought just saying, look, i thought we we|were taking ntrol. thought just saying, look, i thought we we|were taking back thought just saying, look, i thought we we|were taking back control. it just saying, look, i thought we we|were taking back control. but we were taking back control. but actually they think, actually they around they think, well, don't that. i well, we don't have that. and i think there a section of that leave really genuinely

leave that really genuinely want this kind of break this complete leave independent leave fully independent sovereign nation that could go out and do whatever it wanted in the world, etc. and think many the world, etc. and i think many leavers just feel like they haven't really had that. they haven't really had that. they haven't that that's haven't seen that and that's partly in these partly reflected in these numbers. therefore final numbers. and therefore the final result, which suppose is the result, which i suppose is the definitive it stands, definitive one as it stands, people asked whether they thought the wrong thought it was the wrong decision we voted to leave decision when we voted to leave the eu did they say, yeah, the eu and did they say, yeah, so overall half say feel so overall almost half say feel that leaving the eu was the wrong decision. you take away the people who are undecided that goes up to actually that that goes up to actually about 60, which is in line with other. so what we've got here is a creeping regret in the a sort of creeping regret in the country, a sense that actually maybe wasn't the right call. now, i should caveat this with two points because these points are in our are routinely ignored in our media discussion . one media discussion. one is underneath the surface. most leavers still say , this was the leavers still say, this was the right decision. most remainers say this was the wrong decision . you've got that polarisation . . you've got that polarisation. the some things never change, some things never change. the

other thing which many people routinely overlook is that very people actually want a second referendum on the eu membership . this is a crucial point because we're not out there seeing a large majority saying i want to rejoin, i want to rejoin. when you actually say, do you think should a second do you think we should a second referendum eu, referendum on the eu, the numbers it's small minority numbers it's a small minority typically 25, something like that. not really this that. so it's not really this kind of yearning appetite to go back the wars to reopen back the brexit wars to reopen box to have another referendum . box to have another referendum. but there is a creeping sense of regret. there is a there is a out there camilla that brexit now getting wrapped up within with the cost of living crisis with the cost of living crisis with the cost of living crisis with the war in ukraine, the deterioration in living standards . and even if people standards. and even if people can't quite diagnose what's driving all of that and you know, everything is getting blurred into, everything else, there is a sense that brexit is just not really delivering what people expected it to deliver, although people might want to rejoin. i think there is a growing appetite for what i

would describe as shadow showing. so this is a little bit in line of david lammy rhetoric , his speech a couple of weeks ago. this idea maybe we would be better with a bit closer alignment, even if it doesn't mean re—entering the single market and the customs union. are picking that in are you picking that up in polling? think what's polling? well, i think what's going over the next polling? well, i think what's goingten over the next polling? well, i think what's goingten years over the next polling? well, i think what's goingten years basicallye next polling? well, i think what's goingten years basically is1ext five, ten years basically is we're going to see a bit of what academics like me would call benchmarking. be benchmarking. brits are going be watching how the eu is in watching how the eu is doing in the eu going to be watching the eu is going to be watching how doing. and if it how britain is doing. and if it looks eu powering ahead looks the eu is powering ahead to and italy and france to germany and italy and france are doing much better than the uk have a profound impact uk that have a profound impact on our public mood. if, however , the uk manages to get itself together manages to push ahead, can actually point to meaningful areas where it's diverging the eu and those are making a tangible difference to people's lives . then actually i think the lives. then actually i think the politics of brexit will change all over again. one of the biggest pieces of unfinished business is the northern ireland protocol. northern ireland protocol. does northern ireland come the polling on come up much in the polling on the not as much as you

the doorstep? not as much as you might think? because people are really drilling down into the detail same not detail in the same way, not really talking me about, you really talking to me about, you know, replacement know, the replacement of the common agricultural policy or the freedoms fail or the the brexit freedoms fail or the deregulation financial deregulation of financial services and edinburgh services and the edinburgh reforms. really reforms. people aren't really into but underneath into the detail, but underneath all of this is a really important point. if you voted for brexit and you voted for the conservative government , there conservative government, there is, think, a point here which is, i think, a point here which they really they have not really communicated clearly to the country. the that we've gained because we've left the eu. they have never really communicated those as loudly , consistently those as loudly, consistently and as coherently . they could and as coherently. they could have done the only things that have done the only things that have cut through are things like, well, the vaccines we were able to move a bit more quickly than eu and maybe ukraine we than the eu and maybe ukraine we were a you know, we're able were a bit, you know, we're able to be more to move quicker, be more decisive but i don't think in decisive. but i don't think in the battle of communications over brexit i think our debate national has been comprehensively won by the remain side and i think the side has sort of vacated that

territory and allowed it really to be dominated by by the remain so briefly. but i realise this is a very complex question. bofis is a very complex question. boris johnson electoral assets or liability, just in a nutshell, matt, if you can, his polling numbers are not strong, camilla. they're not strong at all. we asked last week should he return to the cabinet. most people say, no. all right. thank you very much, professor goodwin, joining me for goodwin, for joining me and for providing exclusive providing us with that exclusive polling. get back to polling. now let's get back to catherine harlow catherine force she's in harlow of leave area. find out of massive leave area. find out what the people's think about what the people's think about what grant shapps told me. are they convinced by the government's record? catherine catherine i would say the jury's out . let's talk to them now. out. let's talk to them now. first of all. there's been a lot of chat. dominic raab kate is unconvinced about how people really feel about this . and i really feel about this. and i don't really think majority really care what's going on with dominic raab think their main priority is public services how to their utility , how to get to their utility, how to get from one side of harlow to

another without going down a whole and within a reasonable of time. i don't think a dominic is even entering the arrangement. to be it's a it's an to be fair, it's a it's an internal issue and it should be alone. and truss, a lot of alone. sure. and truss, a lot of talk about her this morning phrase of what's your view. it's old news isn't it really the she's know rishi sunak is the prime minister now really what he says is important. he's got the power to changes. so, you know liz truss can have an opinion of course , but i mean opinion of course, but i mean i think what rishi sunak is more important . and listening to important. and listening to grant shapps now the business secretary, keep your concerned about levels of spending. did say anything to reassure you? well he seemed to run very quickly over the point he made about looking at budgets, i mean, expenditure needs mean, public expenditure needs a really serious review and people need to understand that public services works for the nhs and are paid for by commercial activities of people such fraser and fraser . you were talking and fraser. you were talking about wanting the tax burden

come down. grant shapps is saying we afford to do that right , but saying we afford to do that right, but we'd be looking to do that in the future. are you satisfied with that? yeah i think we can accept that. but i schedule or some sort of plan would be good. then business can actually work towards something and, know something with some certainty. what's going to happenin certainty. what's going to happen in the future . and the happen in the future. and the brexit is talking that only brexit poll is talking that only 4% of people surveyed think that we've got a good deal with the eu . 54% think we got a bad deal. eu. 54% think we got a bad deal. what's your response to that? i think it's fairly expected that we would get a not a great deal . i think the european union will try their best to make it look very difficult to leave the european. they're going to try and keep business as happy as they can . but still, it's not. they can. but still, it's not. i think it's not expected, not unexpected to. and that's the result . that's not the best result. that's not the best interest, is it, for us to do well? okay so thank you very much for taking time out of your

morning to join us on the gb news people's poll in harlow and. back to you in the studio from thank you very much for that, catherine. yeah, i think are as ambivalent in harlow a major live area as they are . not major live area as they are. not only among the spartans but across the country about brexit but let's say . across the country about brexit but let's say. coming up i'm going to be speaking to roger bootle, formerly of hsbc , now an bootle, formerly of hsbc, now an economist at capital, about what he thinks about how brexit's gone. we've also got a great generation gap coming up between two teachers, old and young , two teachers, old and young, about strikes. but first, about the strikes. but first, here's the with tatiana here's the news with tatiana sanchez sanchez . camilla, thank sanchez sanchez. camilla, thank you very much. it's 1030. sanchez sanchez. camilla, thank you very much. it's1030. this is the latest , the gb newsroom. is the latest, the gb newsroom. liz truss claims she wasn't given a realist chance to act on her policies when she was in office. in her first major comments on her premiership since leaving number 10. writing in the sunday telegraph, the

former prime minister says she wasn't blameless in what happened but criticised a lack of political support. she said she stands by her low tax agenda, calling a break from leftward thinking within party. ms. truss resigned after 49 days following economic turmoil caused by her mini budget . caused by her mini budget. police say a key witness the search for missing mother of two and nicola billy has come forward . lancashire police forward. lancashire police appealed for a woman to make herself known officers after she was seen in the area on cctv footage wearing a yellow coat and pushing a pram. her family have a police that she fell into the river. the head of the royal college of nursing has called on the prime minister make a new meaningful pay offer in order to avoid upcoming strikes. tens of thousands nurses and ambulance staff in england are striking tomorrow . and tuesday in what tomorrow. and tuesday in what many calling the biggest strike

day in history of the nhs nhs. tv, online and dab+ radio is.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show this morning. now delighted to be joined by roger bootle , former chief economist bootle, former chief economist for the hsbc group and chairman of capital economics. roger, a rare voice in favour of brexit before it happened. we'll get onto that in just a moment. i'm intrigued by your reaction to liz truss bringing back the spectre of trust nomics. what's your reaction to that? i mean, did she make a cogent argument badly or what's your view? well, i was really very much supportive of her agenda. that's to say the tax take has got much

too high. it needs to come an awful lot lower. we need to deregulate. we need to go for growth. so i was in favour of that, i thought the that, but i thought the execution was simply appalling. yeah, it much too yeah, she went at it much too fast and also the manner was completely wrong. now you might think, know, as far as think, you know, as far as markets concerned, they're markets are concerned, they're not bothered the manner not bothered about the manner and but they are and the style, but they are because convey because these things convey something. the top something. so abolishing the top rate of tax, which again, i'm in favour principle doing it favour of in principle doing it that when took away the that he when you took away the limit on bankers bonuses. that he when you took away the limit on bankers bonuses . yes. limit on bankers bonuses. yes. and then the chancellor as he was at the time, going on television, on the sunday and say of an awful lot more that ought to come. exactly that's what spooked the markets what really spooked the markets . if it had been done . i think if it had been done differently in a different style, modestly less style, a more modestly less quickly. i think she could have got with it. but what about got away with it. but what about this characterise the this characterise asian the front the sunday front page of the sunday telegraph. headline is i was telegraph. the headline is i was brought by left wing brought down by the left wing economic establishment . brought down by the left wing economic establishment. i mean, is accurate portrayal of is that an accurate portrayal of who she referred to there? i guess a mixture of the treasury, the england, the markets

the bank of england, the markets themselves. left themselves. are they all left wing? well, the markets certainly aren't undermining the conservative supporting. think conservative supporting. i think it's a bit unfair that it's true to say that they would have been sceptical politely about her programme. that's true , but programme. that's true, but that's not what brought it down. it was this appalling execution . and one of the things that i think undid her plan was that she hadn't realised just how febrile the markets were. i've heard her say this , she said, heard her say this, she said, look, during the pandemic , rishi look, during the pandemic, rishi sunak got away with dishing out squillions and then more squillions and then more squillions in the markets didn't seem to bat an eyelid . and yet seem to bat an eyelid. and yet these comparatively smaller sums they did baulk at. i don't think she and the chancellor quite realise how different the market circumstances were . although circumstances were. although does she make a good point about the obe are putting the government in a so—called straitjacket . it in the sense straitjacket. it in the sense that she makes the point that when sunak was giving out the furlough cash, there wasn't an awful cost. and we've heard this awful cost. and we've heard this a lot. you know, a lot of

people, particularly in the right of the party, say when if the imf and the obe are ever been about anything. hmm been right about anything. hmm well, in that well, there's something in that itake well, there's something in that i take a different view about the obe. i think, frankly, they should forecast . and should have done a forecast. and if you were aiming for the long game, should have game, i think they should have been it wouldn't have been doing. it wouldn't have mattered. the mattered. i think so much. the imf intervention, i thought, was scandalous, quite frankly, was politically motivated. to. liz truss, you don't know what they said last week about britain behind the euro. that's right. explain that for the viewers, because imf came in they because the imf came in and they basically made quite politic basically made it quite politic or about her economic or statement about her economic collapse. well they came in and said they thought this was completely wrong and potentially dangerous , bizarrely. of dangerous, bizarrely. and of course, there's some suggestion they did that the behest of they did that at the behest of someone the uk, authorities . someone in the uk, authorities. it a very unusual it was a very unusual intervention . and then you can't intervention. and then you can't . well, you can forgive liz truss then for thinking that the blob , the remaining leaning blob blob, the remaining leaning blob was working against her because we have historically heard these tales of chancellors going a bit nafive tales of chancellors going a bit native at the treasury, even

rishi sunak as a brexiteer, because the treasury is absolutely obsessed with trade and all the links to the eu and doesn't want to rock the european economic boat. do you recognise character recognise that character characterisation? i think characterisation? yes i think she was right about the economic establishment treasury establishment and the treasury view . there is establishment and the treasury view. there is something establishment and the treasury view . there is something wrong view. there is something wrong there . it's defeatist. it's there. it's defeatist. it's against tax cuts. it seems to be in favour of a large state. on all these things, she was right . but i do believe that there was some sort of conspiracy against her. the simple fact of the matter is, i believe that she and her team simply came across as incompetent, as reckless . and if you were in the reckless. and if you were in the treasury or the bank of england, that's not good news. so and again, i think a lot of this comes back not to her ideas, but to the style and the speed of what she was trying to do. can we have an honest appraisal from you about what negative impact brexit has had on the current economic climate ? well, first of economic climate? well, first of all, i don't agree with all

those people who say that it's hit gdp , reduced gdp by 4.1 to hit gdp, reduced gdp by 4.1 to 3, recurring . the thing 3, recurring. the thing astonishes me about this is the confidence with which they opine on this. the simple fact of the matter is we don't know. we never know in economics, by the way, because we never know the counterfactual. that's to say what would have happened in the absence of the event that we're talking about. and in this particular instance, the difficulty even greater difficulty is even greater because since brexit vote, because since the brexit vote, we've had a global pandemic lockdown and an energy crisis and war in europe. now they might have an impact, you know. so we simply cannot tell . having so we simply cannot tell. having said that, my view is that probably brexit has cost the economy something i would hesitate to put a number on it something. but the reason i say thatis something. but the reason i say that is that if you go back to the brexit debate, there was of course a discussion between pros and antis about what the economic effects would be. and i think the general architecture of this debate was quite clear. we thought that leaving the

single market would be a net negative for the economy. and i agree with that. and as against that, there was the possibility of striking free trade deals around the world and deregulating. now what we know has happened is that we have left the single market and there have been losses from that as we expected . there have been very expected. there have been very few trade deals and in particular not the big one with america. and we've hardly deregulated at all. so i think structurally it wouldn't be surprising to see that the economy has been hit a bit. and do you think an error do you think it's an error because would have been under because it would have been under liz as foreign liz truss as watch as foreign secretary to have secured secretary not to have secured that deal america? or that trade deal with america? or was going to be was it always going to be many years think it was always years off? i think it was always going to be many years off. it's not going to be easy. even if we get republican in white get a republican in the white house, but with a democratic president and certainly joe biden . it's frankly not on. and biden. it's frankly not on. and we also look at this tpp , the we also look at this tpp, the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans—pacific partnership . that's obviously

partnership. that's obviously a good thing for the british economy. but again, as the government progress on all this being just glacial, yes, it has . it's amazing how little has been achieved . i mean, some been achieved. i mean, some things i don't want to underestimate the difficulties. it's not easy to join something like that, but that's potentially very, very big news because the countries involved in that growing quite fast. in that are growing quite fast. their the world their importance in the world economy increasing. by economy is increasing. by contrast with a lot of people in this country don't appreciate, is that the share of the eu in the world economy has been falling quite fast and it's set to continue falling quite fast. just generally with regard to trying to reassure the viewers , trying to reassure the viewers, i mean, couldn't have more i mean, they couldn't have more bad at the moment at every bad news at the moment at every turn. there is some sort of negative economic forecast. bills are going up here. okay we do have the promise of inflation coming down. we've heard that the imf basically say that britain is behind the rest of europe when it comes to recovery. what's your analysis of the next two years? do we actually have anything to look forward to come 20, 24, 25? yes.

big time. i think this year is going to be pretty bad. i don't know whether the imf is right or wrong about the uk. it's often wrong, by the way, but even so , wrong, by the way, but even so, i'm an optimist in general. i think this year is going to be pretty . consumer real pretty poor. consumer real incomes are going to be squeezed . the housing market's falling interest going up. interest rates going up. inflation, although coming down, is very above wage is still very high above wage rises. so it's going to be grim . think a lot of people . what i think a lot of people don't how much don't appreciate is how much better next year is going to be. assuming we don't get intensification of global energy crisis, going to lot crisis, it's going to be a lot better. inflation is going to be down well down by the end of this year and continue falling sharply next year. interest rates the housing rates will peak the housing market stabilise the public market will stabilise the public finances look better. finances will look better. unemployment will go up. we'll probably have stabilised by the end of year . probably have stabilised by the end of year. next year end of this year. next year i think could see a real bounce think we could see a real bounce in the economy. fingers crossed. did think the bank did you think the bank of england right put england was right to put interest rates up to 4% in the week? some people were thinking

it be that high and do it wouldn't be that high and do you they're going to you think they're going to stabilise that i stabilise at that point? no, i think the was right. i've think the bank was right. i've been a hawk on interest rates for some time. although inflation and inflation is coming down and it's going fall, i think it's going to fall, i think quite problem is quite rapidly. the problem is underlying inflation because the published inflation rate, the headune published inflation rate, the headline inflation rate is coming down because last year's big rises in costs are dropping out of the annual comparison. meanwhile, pay rises have been going up. they're running at a six and six and a half, and that's the key to the underlying rate of inflation. the fact is that the labour market is too tight. yes for a variety of reasons. pay rises are too rapid and so the bank is going to have to be quite tough, i think, to squeeze the labour market. not a nice thing to have to do, but it's what you have to do to get inflation under control. we'll get on to wages in just a minute. but just on the bank, i mean, have they presided over catastrophic economic policy for far too with ultra low far too long with ultra low interest and quantitative interest rates and quantitative easing? they're

easing? and actually they're the ones blamed for ones who should be blamed for storing now faced storing up. we're now faced with, it comes with, particularly when it comes to owners. where else were to home owners. where else were interest rates ever going to go but well, i'm not going but up? hmm. well, i'm not going to bash the bank. i do think they've made some mistakes. but frankly , this was very, very frankly, this was a very, very difficult situation and to have to deal with there's some to deal with now there's some people, argue that people, purists who argue that quantitative easing was completely wrong. we should never interest rates, that never had interest rates, that low. i don't agree with them. the fact of matter is that the economy to be terribly economy looked to be terribly weak bank had got weak and once the bank had got interest down to nought interest rates down to nought point i think bottom point one, i think the bottom rate, what had in the rate, what they had in the locker qe and they had locker then was qe and they had resort to it. i think it was the right thing to do. there mistake, i would argue was not to recognise that the economy was recovering sooner, that inflation was rising. quite alarming , inflation was rising. quite alarming, and that the labour market was much tighter. so i don't complain about what they did then. i just think they should have changed more rapidly. we should put interest rates up faster and a very brief

word on just the strikes and wages , they are going to be wages, they are going to be inflationary if they give the likes of public sector workers, nurses, teachers, etc. too much of a pay rise, aren't they? there's no doubt about it. the fact of the matter is that britain has become poorer because of the increase in international prices international energy prices and that's the real that's bound to hit the real incomes on average . and of incomes on average. and of course, of people around course, lots of people around the understandably the country, understandably don't them. so don't want it to be them. so they're action, saying, they're taking action, saying, let not be but someone's let it not be us, but someone's got it. and if they get got to bear it. and if they get compensated, then will compensated, then that will simply burden on simply increase the burden on other workers finally, other workers. and finally, corporation . we know how corporation tax. we know how unpopular this rise is, particularly among smaller , particularly among smaller, medium sized businesses who had a terrible pandemic, an extra 6/% shaved off profit margins. should jeremy hunt go ahead with that in the budget, do you think? well, i think not. again, this is a case in which i think liz truss was on on the right lines. it's not an enormous amount of money that's raising. it's giving all the wrong signals, particularly when the business world is worried about the i the consequences of brexit. i wouldn't it. roger

wouldn't be doing it. roger bootle, thank you very much indeed joining this indeed for joining me this morning. up , indeed for joining me this morning. up, we're morning. right. coming up, we're going to have quite the debate in generation gap . we're in our generation gap. we're going have a strike going to have a pro strike teacher robinson, an teacher, callum robinson, and an anti strike teacher chris mcgovern , to have the argument mcgovern, to have the argument about whether the strikes in the week were a good idea. we'll be back in just jiffy.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now we've got our generation gap segment still to come. but let's see what michael portillo has got coming up at 11:00 on his show. michael what you're going to be talking about? well, we've got steven tyler on to talk about the strikes in the health service and a couple of very eminent surgeons. and we've got vince cable, who's going to be talking to us about whether we should have an extra tax on oil

companies, more in for tax. he was, of course, leader of the liberal democrats. but do you remember that he was also the chief economist for royal dutch shell? but coming up, what do you make of the re—emergence of liz truss? i have some sympathy with her on the point that she wasn't told about the impact on pension funds. the pension funds were doing something pretty strange , were they not, that strange, were they not, that they were in such peril from a change in the economy that they almost tumbled. what do you what do you make of that? i did. i agree with you. i mean, i don't want to go into the granularity . ldi is somebody more qualified than me can say that. but i do think that the idea that she wasn't properly informed of the risks, particularly with the pensions market, was terrible. what do i think about her being on front page of sun on the front page of the sun telegraph? delighted. good telegraph? delighted. it's good for don't mind her for copy. i also don't mind her wanting to make the other economic argument she might have been a very short lived prime minister , but she's still a minister, but she's still a fool. and prime minister,

fool. and the prime minister, it's. a big issue for rishi it's. it's a big issue for rishi sunak, isn't it? i mean, you saw that bootle very respected that roger bootle very respected economist, coming and saying economist, coming on and saying that there was much in the liz truss programme that he respected and unfortunately the consequence of the liz truss premiership was to close down the possibility of going down that to growth. then that road to growth. maybe then some people would say, well you had your chance, liz, maybe now you rest . but you should give it a rest. but certainly doesn't help. rishi certainly it doesn't help. rishi sunak no it doesn't indeed. well i'm really looking forward to watching the show. 11 michael, thank you for coming up. watching the show. 11 michael, thank you for coming up . enjoy thank you for coming up. enjoy your last debate. take a thank you. while the last debate is coming up, we talk from one liberal democrat to another because callum robertson joins me. he's a young teacher. he used to be a lib deb candidate. and then also have chris and then we also have chris mcgovern, chairman of the campaign for real education, a retired and the retired headteacher and the former adviser to the policy unit and number 10 downing street. so got street. so we've got a millennial. can i say that, callum? just about just about somebody slightly older. chris i'll put it that way. now i mean

the have been a massive the strikes have been a massive topic week. i ended up, topic this week. i ended up, would you believe it, helping out my son's school because they're a bit short staffed and i and did a lesson with i went and did a lesson with eleven's on persuasive writing, which was interesting. there are about kids in the classroom, about 70 kids in the classroom, i must say. i would rather do 90 minutes of live telly than teach a classroom full of 16 year olds, but they have it on strikes, i suppose, from a parental point of view. a lot of people think this. calum i'll bnng people think this. calum i'll bring in the children bring you in first. the children weren't in for huge swathes of the pandemic era. teachers are largely working from home, often they've been given a pay rise. indeed my own school, i think they were given 8% and the government has just come out wit h £2 billion worth war with £2 billion worth war funding for the dfi. therefore, is the timing of all this right? i think it's a very fast of questions . we need to look at questions. we need to look at this not just in the context of the cost living crisis and the 8.3, which is for new teachers. not long standing teachers, which is where we cut off ,

not long standing teachers, which is where we cutoff, is which is where we cut off, is actually happening . this actually really happening. this is about correcting a historic injustice with teaching teachers. since 2010 have had . teachers. since 2010 have had. £6,600 a year cut from their salaries. in real terms, that isn't an opinion. it's not political , but letters, political, but letters, industry, fiscal studies , that's industry, fiscal studies, that's just maths. i just counting . if just maths. i just counting. if you leave a profession of still people that much worse off and expect teachers to stay in the profession when they can get better paid jobs elsewhere, then were themselves about were kidding themselves about the education. the state of education. chris, i mean, are teachers historically underpaid and do they deserve more? most people say yes, wouldn't well, look, i've wouldn't they? well, look, i've taught for 35 years and actually i was a trade unionist myself and have sympathy for and i have some sympathy for teachers, have a more teachers, but i have a lot more sympathy children have sympathy for children who have missed because of missed out hugely because of lockdown and what we have to remember, and it's never mentioned debate , is mentioned in this debate, is actually majority of staff actually the majority of staff in schools, according to the government's own statistics, are not teachers, they are support staff. there's plenty of money in education system to pay in the education system to pay

the teachers good teachers, the best teachers good teachers, a salary . but it means we a good salary. but it means we have to change the way we teach so we have fewer classroom assistant. it's not none. we have we have fewer and we have some. we have fewer and we have some. we have fewer and we have more what we call teacher led teaching. so the teacher at the front of the class, the children in the front, go children face in the front, go to any primary school in the country. days. you find country. these days. you find the around the children sitting around tables, backs to the tables, half of the backs to the teacher by classroom teacher supported by classroom assistants away that assistants. do away with that and save a lot of money and and you save a lot of money and you pay and you save a lot of money and you pay the good you should then pay the good teachers because they deserve it. so there's money in the system and going on strike is never acceptable. performance related their classroom. related pay their classroom. we should have should different have performance good performance related pay good teachers more . i teachers should be paid more. i completely i'm from completely agree. i'm from slater pay. i also want to correct slightly it correct you slightly when it comes the statistics comes to the statistics around support is only true support staff. that is only true in primary schools when it comes to secondary education. approximately 56, over half of teachers are seniors within schools. so it's really important you can look at these statistics in that context. when you look at them in that

context, actually, where the savings can really be made is things like capping energy prices. so, for example, some schools facing half a schools are facing half a million pound extra on the energy bills this year. now, when talk the 2 billion when we talk about the 2 billion extra for education, that's fantastic. covers the fantastic. that covers the energy the energy bill. what about the unfunded what about unfunded pay rise? what about the so schools the fact teachers so schools have asked to fund a 40% have been asked to fund a 40% pay have been asked to fund a 40% pay rise on a 2% uplift? that was just my maths look. the majority of teachers agree with me. they not voted for me. they have not voted for strike action. and we to strike action. and we have to remember this is a highly political debate we've seen in the in the day or the papers in the last day or two teacher in london putting two a teacher in london putting on media poster which on social media a poster which one of her children, one of the children in the class actually put together saying the only good is a debt tory, the good tory is a debt tory, the only good lib dem is a deadly lib we've seen this before. lib dem. we've seen this before. a labour party conferences, we've teacher we've had teacher representatives as long representatives saying as long as pupil leaves school as a single pupil leaves school and votes tory, the education system is failing. so it's a political debate. we can argue over the statistic, but the truth is we are overstaffed in

our schools and we're not doing particularly well. is particularly well. there is money system. i mean, our money in the system. i mean, our teachers being led astray by sort of socialist rhetoric. it's all part of some general strike to and realign political to try and realign the political order. i can totally see why people get idea from when we look at the bust as we know, that's disgusting. no one is going to sit there defending political parties, especially after the death of two and pays in the last ten years. like we cannot stress enough violence and violent rhetoric is definitely not that. and also actually on the teachers demonstration of 40,000 people in london on wednesday, there were people with palestine posters as well proposed. a lot of teachers are in favour of this. and that's a problem, isn't it? hang on. so when you have those people trying to huack have those people trying to hijack actually a debate, which i think is about pay minds, about pay, and actually more important, i think it's about workload . i think we need to workload. i think we need to focus on those issues rather than getting distracted with rhetoric schools and stuff rhetoric in schools and stuff like we will always agree

like that. we will always agree on the fact that we should not be using little once, but we have focus on fact have to focus on the fact teachers are underpaid in overworked are overworked workload. i mean, are teachers generation teachers of callum's generation more your more overworked than your generation now good teachers generation now? good teachers work hard, and i would work very hard, and i would support the right of teachers to negotiate a high pay rise. but there are very many great teachers, and there are a large number of poor teachers. all the children know who the good teachers are. all the parents know the good teachers are, know who the good teachers are, and the staff we need and all the staff know we need to those who are best. so to reward those who are best. so there case for teachers there is a case for teachers having rise, very strong having a pay rise, a very strong case, not for going on case, but not for going on strike. why should children, particularly children from poor backgrounds, suffer? and, you know, poor children know, we work with poor children . we find is that . and what we find is that parents read and parents often cannot read and write. can't help their write. they can't help their children. the ones children. so they are the ones who are suffering, do not use to teach children teach the pupils, the children as a as a point. chris makes a good point with regard to teachers perhaps prioritising their own needs above those of children. this criticism children. we had this criticism made rightly made of teachers, rightly or wrongly, the pandemic , wrongly, during the pandemic, not to face not having face to face learning, wanting to carry on.

it's the same with lecturers and universities still sticking to onune universities still sticking to online even were online learning. even they were well beyond the vaccination . well beyond the vaccination. what's your reaction to that? us teachers selfish ? i think teachers being selfish? i think when you've got a government that openly refuses negotiate that openly refuses to negotiate in and that's not in good faith and that's not just rhetoric. last week and the week before meetings were cancelled the union cancelled between the union officials and the education secretary. at the last minute , secretary. at the last minute, teachers, specifically chalamet's just addressed this issue because chris is making this point that actually the children should always come first comes to the first when it comes to the classroom, when a government is refusing good refusing to negotiate in good faith. have laws this faith. we have laws in this country allow trade country that allow for trade union industrial action. are we seriously considering scrapping the laws because the government doesn't outcome ? are we doesn't like the outcome? are we really in that position as a society where we are going to scrap very basic workers and scrap our very basic workers and human rights because we don't like one particular bit of strike? yes or no answer to finish, chris should teachers be allowed to strike in future ? allowed to strike in future? they should be allowed to, but they should not harm children. therefore, should not go on

therefore, they should not go on strike readily. most teachers will strike. thank you will not go on strike. thank you very much for that, both of you. we've of time. back next we've run out of time. back next week up next, week at 930. but up next, michael portillo .

good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo bringing you good conversation arts and entertainment, ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous. two it is never dull on a sunday morning. last week rishi sunak nadhim zahawi. this week is just a step back into the political limelight, blaming others for the short life of her government . tomorrow, the

government. tomorrow, the national health service will