ones about how the only numerous ones about how the only mp is the only good mp is a dead mp is the only good mp is a dead mp . somebody emailed the email. mp. somebody emailed the email. i'm going, yeah, yeah . she spent i'm going, yeah, yeah. she spent more than 30 years as a labour mp . kate hoey reflects on her mp. kate hoey reflects on her time in politics. i always said that it's a bit of a cliche, but i think the labour party left me really rather than, you know, me leaving. he swapped the army for the house of commons as the concern of mp james sunderland . concern of mp james sunderland. i was the last mp to see david dennis alive. we flew back from carter together, had a great trip and he was dead. 36 hours later. all that after news . later. all that after news. hi there. it's a minute past six. i'm out. armstrong in the gb newsroom. fresh images of nicola burley on the day she disappeared while walking her dog have been released by one of

her friends. the cctv images show the 45 year old wearing long, dark coat leggings and ankle boots with a hair tied in ankle boots with a hair tied in a ponytail. she's loading her car outside her home before driving her children to school and then going for a riverside walk. lancashire police say their enquiries to find nicola are extensive and include speaking to as many members of the public as possible. however, forensic search and rescue special list peter folding has cast doubt on the police's main theory that nicola fell into the river. nicola was last seen in the top field by that, by the witness . there's nothing to say. witness. there's nothing to say. she couldn't have been kidnapped and dragged and put in a car and taken away and someone could have put a mobile phone by the rivers state court or nicola wanted to disappear herself . it wanted to disappear herself. it just doesn't ring right. the amount of searches that's gone on this river, the body. if on in this river, the body. if there was only in there, is no way you're going to go all the way you're going to go all the way down to the sea. not with us. that that current. liz truss

has admitted she wasn't blameless in what happened dufing blameless in what happened during her time as prime minister, but has criticised the lack of support from her colleagues right in the sunday telegraph in a 4000 word essay , telegraph in a 4000 word essay, the former prime minister claims she wasn't giving a realistic chance to act on her policies, but stands by her low tax. a agenda, calling it a break from leftwards thinking within the party. mistrust resigned after 49 days following economic turmoil caused by a mini budget. earlier on, gb news business secretary grant shapps defended the government's economic plan. i think that liz's instincts are very conservative in the sense that we want to see taxes go lowered over a period of time. but i think everyone recognises we've been through, you know, hell with coronavirus, which i what, £400 billion at least of expenditure . we then had a war expenditure. we then had a war in ukraine which has pushed up energy prices and inflation and be very, very costly as a gb

news on the ab plus radio. we will have more headlines at the top of the hour. alex davies jones , really good alex davies jones, really good to meet you. you came in 2019, so we would never colleagues. we're going to talk about who the real alex jones is in a minute. but i want to start by asking you about a question you put to the prime ministerjust a couple of weeks ago at prime minister's question time, where he talks about the radical desertion of young men in this country. just tell us what you meant by that. it's something thatis meant by that. it's something that is being brought up more and more with me as i visit schools in the constituency sea but also by friends. my best friend is a teacher and she's seeing it more and more in her classroom. and it's young boys

who sort of drawn in who are being sort of drawn in to this world of toxic masculinity , this misogyny in masculinity, this misogyny in cell culture, that we're seeing more and more online. the most well known figure of this at the moment is probably andrew tate andifs moment is probably andrew tate and it's how we can try and stop this from happening and focus on positive masculinity . there are positive masculinity. there are so many incredible male role models in this country for young boys and young men to look up to and aspire to. and it's the dangers that the message is and lifestyle to undertake it promotes. and his views on women are incredibly problematic, not not least all of his offline activity as well. and now, obviously, he's arrested and under investigation for some of the most vile and heinous crimes that you could be just for the record, i'll say he he denies those crimes . you talked about those crimes. you talked about some positive male role models. anybody in mind? yeah, of course. you know, we've got some

brilliant sporting heroes in this country. and whilst, of course, i would take gareth bale and just recently the welsh football team took a pay cut in order to have parity with the women's that the male women's team so that the male and players could paid and female players could be paid the a great the same. that is a great example of positive masculinity, male role model standing up for both women and men. and he's a great person in wales to sort of look up to and aspire to. there are an abundance of male role models and it's important that we celebrate all the great things about being a young boy. because, i've got because, you know, i've got three at home it can three of them at home and it can be really, really difficult and finding your way through that, i mean, it was hard for me mean, i know it was hard for me as girl growing up, but as a young girl growing up, but having role models having great female role models was and having was really inspiring and having that positive outlook on life and those people who i could really look up to. it was important to me and knowing that you're alone, i think is the you're not alone, i think is the biggest thing. for young biggest thing. and for young boys, really hard. with boys, it's really hard. and with all pressures social all the pressures of social media, the pressures of media, with all the pressures of school life, then it's yeah, school and life, then it's yeah, it's important that they have a appropriate go down

appropriate channel to go down and trusted people to speak to as well, and not sucked in to as well, and not be sucked in to this messaging online, which is part problem. do you part of the problem. do you worry ? do you take steps with worry? do you take steps with your own boys . to ensure that your own boys. to ensure that they grow up with with positive views about women and healthy attitudes to consent and all those things? yeah, living with me, they've not really got choice, but yes, you know what? we've always made sure that we have open conversations in our house is a safe space for them to explore whatever they've they've or seen are they've read or seen or are thinking about feeling about. thinking about or feeling about. and , it's always having and yeah, it's always having that open conversation . i think that open conversation. i think being a step mother, you have a unique relationship with your stepchildren, especially boys. you i'm not their mother you know, i'm not their mother and i'm more than a friend to them. so it's being able to know that they've got a safe space in order to come to if they want to talk about anything that's happening. and i'm not their dad and their mum. this and i'm not their mum. i'm this person between. it's

person in between. and it's given unique perspective, given me a unique perspective, especially and especially with them and then seeing grow up be seeing them grow up to be incredibly young and also incredibly young men and also great to my little great big brothers to my little boy. and it's lovely. we've got a relationship and just a great relationship and just talking media, talking about social media, you're old, which makes you're 33 years old, which makes you're 33 years old, which makes you one of the few employees who actually would have grown up become a teenager with social media. in your life as a big presence , did it affect you in presence, did it affect you in any way ? did you ever feel any way? did you ever feel subject to any pressure or no negative attitudes? i suppose it's i grew up, i was in secondary school when my son and people on myspace were just sort of exploding onto the scene. i joined facebook at university. that was that was the first time sort of became a part of my life. and yes, it was having to portray this image of perfection. and it's i think that's what's it's important to realise it's not real. you see a snapshot of someone's day online and think it's perfect. you

and you think it's perfect. you think that the be all and end think that is the be all and end all. when look back now at all. when i look back now at some the that i posted some of the things that i posted when was in university, you when i was in university, you absolutely and think absolutely cringe and i think everybody the same feeling. everybody has the same feeling. yeah filters, the filters, the things say is the things you would say is the status, things you'd put up. all of very emotional you of the very emotional lyrics you would express your would use to express your feelings it's of feelings. but it's part of growing up. but it's part of life. and it's , it was really life. and it's, it was really important. and i still love it now. and a lifeline to me now. and it was a lifeline to me going through some, some hard times and it's, it's times as well. and it's, it's important keep touch. important to keep in touch. yeah, definitely. december yeah, definitely. in december 2015, received your routine 2015, you received your routine letter asking you to go for your first smear test for cervical cancen first smear test for cervical cancer. what did you do ? i cancer. what did you do? i ignored it. it was christmas . i ignored it. it was christmas. i was busy. it was going out with friends, you know, doing everything you do at christmas time and you think, oh, i'll put that to the back of my mind. i've never had one before. it was the first time the letter defived was the first time the letter derived and it was something i put to back of my mind and put to the back of my mind and just about. tell me what just forgot about. tell me what

happened reminder. happened then i got a reminder. about months later, about four months later, a reminder letter came and i was out having coffee with some girlfriends and i said, oh, i've had this letter to go for my smear test. and they and they were who pushing were the ones who were pushing me well, you've got to me and said, well, you've got to 90, me and said, well, you've got to go, got go and get go, you've got to go and get checked out and said, oh, but, you know, it's just it was them who really pressured me just talking friends over talking to my friends over coffee, going smear coffee, around going for a smear test. and and it was, you test. and i went and it was, you know, it's unpleasant. not know, it's unpleasant. i'm not going that it isn't. but going to deny that it isn't. but it was it was fine. it was it was nothing worse than you've been and then been through before. and then thought of it thought no more of it until a week later. i had another letter telling that i needed to go telling me that i needed to go for further investigations because had back because the test had come back abnormal, the abnormal, and that's all the letter said. so then, as you letter had said. so then, as you do, what does do, your mind goes on. what does this with me? i talk to my this mean with me? i talk to my mom a lot and went for the next investigation. i had a colposcopy which is where they examine cervix under very examine your cervix under a very high intensity, sort of magnifying check. they magnifying glass to check. they do investigate options do further investigate options to if you've got any to check if you've got any abnormal cells, if it's been left there is a very

left any longer. there is a very high chance that it could have been cervical cancer. i had surgery my cervix to remove surgery on my cervix to remove as much of the abnormal cells as possible, while you're going possible, the while you're going through it, you just don't know what's happen. and this what's going to happen. and this is where social media really , is where social media really, really was a positive aspect of my being able to talk to my life being able to talk to someone on a facebook group or on a joe trust forum at 3 am. when you can't sleep because of anxiety, knowing someone is there and has been through this and talk to you a and can talk to you was a lifeline . it was because no one lifeline. it was because no one had been through this. no one. i'd known my mother hadn't gone through it. none of my friends had gone it. i was the had gone through it. i was the i never had the hpv vaccine. i was the last year of school before they actually introduced this. and it was because and it was it was awful because as a as a young woman, you're thinking , am as a as a young woman, you're thinking, am i going to end up like goody? i'm facing my like jade goody? i'm facing my own mortality . am what is this own mortality. am i what is this going have an impact on my going to have an impact on my future fertility? is that does it it did in sense of it have it did in a sense of when i was pregnant, i had to

have a stitch to ensure that i didn't have a miscarriage or the pregnancy failed. and yes , i was pregnancy failed. and yes, i was told that there was a higher chance that it would be difficult for me to get pregnant. but there were other issues fertility journey issues in my fertility journey which meant that i needed ivf. absolutely . so two of your absolutely. so two of your children are stepchildren , which children are stepchildren, which you referred to earlier . you you referred to earlier. you give birth in 2019 to your third, your son, sullivan. you refer to it. it wasn't his it when did you become aware that you had fertility problems? i think it was something that we always knew. both my husband and l, always knew. both my husband and i, we always knew it was going to be difficult to have a baby throughout our relationship. it was something that we talked about. we knew we wanted children together and we knew it was going to be difficult. and speaking to the doctors, we didn't qualify for nhs treatment because i was a stepmother, because i was a stepmother, because my husband had children from his first marriage. we didn't nhs didn't qualify for nhs treatment, had to borrow treatment, so we had to borrow money, had to money. my money, we had to save money. my parents, husband's parents parents, my husband's parents

helped in to fund ivf helped us in order to fund ivf treatment and we went privately and it was difficult. both my husband and i had to have numerous medical procedures. it wasn't as simple as , you know, wasn't as simple as, you know, using a cup and a syringe as some people see it. it was incredibly tough. it's mentally challenging. it's physically demanding and anyone who has gone through fertility treatment . but i am safe to say that we were very, very lucky. and yeah, were very, very lucky. and yeah, we have. sullivan he is he's we have. sullivan and he is he's amazing and he's spoken parliament about this. and i was interested in a couple of the things that you said. you spoke about the guilt of not being able to conceive naturally . i able to conceive naturally. i thought an interesting thought that was an interesting word. why girls as a woman , you word. why girls as a woman, you are told at a young age that you should be a mother. it's sort of something that we are told it's your woman, your job in life, which is it is you know, it's ridiculous to think, but is it to grow up , ridiculous to think, but is it to grow up, have children and have a family of your own? and not many women want that. i've

got friends who would never want children. then i've been very open that. and i've got open about that. and i've got friends desperately friends who desperately want children well . and children and can't as well. and then have children then others who have children andifs then others who have children and it's guilt of as and it's that guilt of as a woman you think you're able to have children . and when you have children. and when you can't , it eats away at you and can't, it eats away at you and you feel that sort a sense of failure that your body has failed you , that you're not able failed you, that you're not able to do what you know. millions of women do every day, naturally, is get pregnant and have a baby . you feel the failure of not being able to give your partner child that they desperately want , the failure of giving your parents grandchildren that they desperately want and it's that sense of you have failed as a person by not being able to bfing person by not being able to bring this this child into that would be loved so deeply by so many people. and it's yeah, it's a it's a it's a big feeling as well as on top of everything else that you're going through in terms of the physical aspect

of it, the mental aspect, but the failure was something that hit the most, that my body hit me the most, that my body had failed that i had had failed me, that i had failed. really interesting. i don't anybody . well, we don't think anybody. well, we spoke eloquently , but spoke very eloquently, but i yeah. and i just never thought of i in those terms. i think you have called for breastfeeding to be allowed in the house of commons chamber. well, not necessarily the chamber . i commons chamber. well, not necessarily the chamber. i think that this debate became a huge debate. my colleague stella creasy spoke out about it. my colleague alyssa kearns has spoken out about it. when i was elected , sullivan was still elected, sullivan was still breastfeeding. he was around eight months old when i became an mp . and i always talk about an mp. and i always talk about my journey to becoming an mp. it was during the snap 2019 election. it wasn't planned and it was an opportunity that i never thought would come my way. and of course, i wanted to grab it hands being able to it with two hands being able to represent community the represent my community is the biggest honour my life, biggest honour of my life, but i had a young baby and i was

had a very young baby and i was breastfeeding and it came with all challenges and being breastfeeding and it came with all from hallenges and being breastfeeding and it came with all from home, jes and being breastfeeding and it came with all from home, yournd being breastfeeding and it came with all from home, you know,ing away from home, you know, pontypridd quite far from pontypridd is quite far from westminster and not being able to bring him with me the majority of the time i was pumping and pumping in parliament and pumping in parliament and pumping room and pumping in the hotel room and having breast milk in a having to stall breast milk in a fridge worse pour it fridge or even worse pour it down drain, which as anyone down the drain, which as anyone who's breastfed knows, is heartbreaking to do and it was more about being able to when i needed feed him, would i have needed to feed him, would i have the availability and option to do so if you could say i was a new mum when i when i got elected, if only there was x or y or z. is there any? it might be. it's not that easy. is there an x or y or z that alex would say this would have really helped me? yes. being able to have voted remotely instead of always having to be the physically would have would have made difference. made a big difference. and we managed during the managed to do that during the pandemic. able to ask pandemic. being able to ask questions make contributions pandemic. being able to ask qudebates make contributions pandemic. being able to ask qu debates virtually, contributions pandemic. being able to ask qu debates virtually, which 3utions pandemic. being able to ask qu debates virtually, which we ons to debates virtually, which we were to during the were able to during the pandemic, would have made a massive difference . being on massive difference. being on maternity leave shouldn't have

disenfranchise anyone from taking in in the sitting of taking part in in the sitting of the house. if i need to ask an urgent question to the home secretary, for example, and i'm on leave, should be on maternity leave, i should be able that remotely, given able to do that remotely, given that were able to do during that we were able to do during the pandemic and on breastfeeding, you breastfeeding, have you made your about yet? your mind up about that one yet? i it's open to everybody. i think it's open to everybody. if i wanted to and if i needed to. i think then i would. you know, it's feeding your child. and personally , for me, i don't and personally, for me, i don't think it's necessary to do it in the chamber . think it's necessary to do it in the chamber. i would never want it to be performative or a stunt . after i spoke out about it, i had lots of people asking me lots of journalistic will you do it so we can capture that? that's what it's about. this that's not what it's about. this isn't about being performative or doing it reaction. it's or doing it for a reaction. it's about child about needing to feed my child when i need to feed my child. and it's about having the availability and flexibility and permission , which sounds bizarre permission, which sounds bizarre to be able to do that. just want to be able to do that. just want to return to where we started off about toxic masculinity . the off about toxic masculinity. the comments you made about andrew

tate, you received rape and death threats after speaking out to tell me what happened. yes sadly, this isn't the first time this has happened and it's quite sad and pathetic , but sadly and sad and pathetic, but sadly and all too reality of being a woman or anyone who speaks out on these issues . and it's only it's these issues. and it's only it's only heightened my desire to speak out even more. they think they're trying to silence me and scare me away, but i feel it makes me does is want to speak out even more. yeah is there a particular message that stands out? what you saw? hold on a minute this needs reporting to minute. this needs reporting to the police or has been many, numerous ones about how the only mp is the only good mp is a dead mp is the only good mp is a dead mp . somebody emailed the email mp. somebody emailed the email to. yeah, yeah. we've had ones around talking about colleagues who have been murdered and you know you're going to be next

talking about what the what these people would do to me . these people would do to me. there have been many and yeah, without going into detail , the without going into detail, the police have been outstanding and that was the point i wanted to make recently in the house is that the support i've had from the police in taking these very seriously, pursuing, you know, potential malicious potential charges of malicious communication, is happening communication, this is happening and is routes available and there is routes available that this behaviour is unacceptable, but more needs to be done, which is the point i've been trying to around . we been trying to make around. we need go further with the need to go further with the onune need to go further with the online safety bill. we need to go in protecting women go further in protecting women and horrendous and girls from the horrendous violence takes violence and misogyny that takes place. you because this happens violence and misogyny that takes placin,you because this happens violence and misogyny that takes placin, day3ecause this happens violence and misogyny that takes placin, day out,jse this happens violence and misogyny that takes placin, day out,jseevery1appens violence and misogyny that takes placin, day out,jseevery walk ns day in, day out, in every walk of life. this isn't unique to politicians. just because i've spoken about this spoken out about this, this happens to women and happens every day to women and it's and things it's unacceptable and things need to change. question , need to change. final question, you referred yourself for investigation for asking a question in the commons about british council funding shortly after taking a trip which was paid for by the organisation to

japan. paid for by the organisation to japan . why did you refer japan. why did you refer yourself ? i asked the question yourself? i asked the question and then thought i wanted to check whether what i had said was in order and to check whether or not i had crossed a line. and i asked the questions and then had the thought of, oh, i just wanted to just wanted to clarify whether or not i was in order. and 20 minutes after asking the question, i sent an email to the standards commissioner just to check, just to sure that i was being to make sure that i was being open, open and open, honest, open and accountable for had said. accountable for what i had said. but, know, when have you had but, you know, when have you had a reply do you know a reply or do you know when i have had a reply from the commissioner? hopefully the investigation be complete investigation will be complete soon. alex davis. jones i never met you before. i really enjoyed getting to know you . you've got getting to know you. you've got a lot to say and i'm sure you've got a bright future ahead of you.thank got a bright future ahead of you. thank you. alex davis, gloria. coming up, kate hoey. i'm not enamoured of keir starmer. i have to be honest, because i saw the way he operated when he was the europe minister. i mean, he more than

anyone else in the labour party, i believe was responsible for us changing our position , for us, changing our position, for us, ignofing changing our position, for us, ignoring the 17 and a half million people who voted to leave and for treating anyone who voted leave as some kind of pafiah. who voted leave as some kind of pariah . conservative mp james pariah. conservative mp james sunderland. the level of online abuse might lead to physical abuse might lead to physical abuse. abuse might lead to physical abuse . i believe there is abuse. i believe there is a connection we have to dial the whole thing down and just make sure that politicians can operate freely without all the unnecessary toxicity .

of. of . kate hoey , former labour of. kate hoey , former labour mp, of. kate hoey, former labour mp, former labour minister. the reason i wanted to go into the eu is because your politics have changed throughout your life and actually that's really quite unusual. so i wanted to explore some of that. how would you

characterise your politics today? well, actually, gloria, i don't think i have changed that much. my views, my attitudes , my much. my views, my attitudes, my values haven't changed. but i think, of course, i started off in student politics and was very much to the left. one of the trotskyites who might call in the international marxist group . but my when i joined the labour party, very early on, after i left college and started to work , i don't think my views to work, i don't think my views on politics have changed. what i think has happened a lot has the labour party has very much changed since i became a member and i remember coming into parliament, sitting with all the ex—miners and men who'd been working in factories, very few women , obviously 41st through women, obviously 41st through only 41 women in their i'm feeling , you know, this only 41 women in their i'm feeling, you know, this is really important because we were talking about things that mattered to the kind of people that i felt i was in there to help and represent and support.

so i genuinely don't think i've changed that much. i've become i've always been a bit independent. yes yeah. i think that has probably stayed with me, which doesn't always get you on in politics as you know. no, indeed. on in politics as you know. no, indeed . so you sit in as an indeed. so you sit in as an independent in the house. you left the labour party in 2019. did you vote labour in 2019? no, i was living in northern ireland, got me out of that. but no, i left. i left to live very simply because keir starmer took the labour party to a position underjeremy the labour party to a position under jeremy corbyn where they were reneging on the manifesto, promises that they would implement whatever people voted for and they said once they called for a second referendum, i had felt very unhappy with over those last two or three years, disillusion with the labour party was the way that they were switching their views , the way they were ignoring people who genuinely thought that labour was going to support them in their vote and i just

thought that's it. and i left sad too, because i always said andifs sad too, because i always said and it's a bit of a cliche, but i think the labour party left me really rather than, you know, me leaving and we lived through that brexit awful period together. you voted to leave, i voted to remain. but we both argued fervently. but it didn't work to respect the results and the rest is history. so you know, you sit as an independent member of the house lost, you've left the labour party. would you still rather see keir starmer than rishi sunak as prime minister ? i'm not enamoured of minister? i'm not enamoured of keir starmer. i have to be honest because i saw the way he operated when he was the europe minister. i mean he more than anyone else in the labour party, i believe was responsible for us changing our position , for us, changing our position, for us, ignofing changing our position, for us, ignoring the 17 million people who voted to leave and for treating anyone who voted leave as some kind of pariah. and we saw that it was a small group of

us who were very, very supportive, had campaigned for a referendum, got the referendum, sought . we won. we had won . and sought. we won. we had won. and then saw him particularly trying to stop it. i mean, i don't even criticise hilary benn who got the ban act and all of that nearly as much because hilary was always prepared to talk to people . i remember a group of us people. i remember a group of us trying to see keir, including people like graham stringer and kelvin hopkins and the few of us who were keen and he never wanted to really talk to us about it. and i think he had decided and knew that he was a fervent european. so i just don't believe that he's changed. so you wouldn't want to see keir starmer as prime minister? it's your party. they'll be leaders throughout your time in the labour party that saw. well labour party that you saw. well not keen on this one, but not that keen on this one, but you vote labour. you you have to vote labour. you know, i, i suppose i'm almost feeling disillusioned with the main parties generally main political parties generally because been very because i've been very disappointed how the disappointed in how the conservatives have handled

brexit of course we had covid and that caused huge problems in the ukraine war. but nevertheless, i think the way that they gave in almost on so many issues once we had left and i think they signed up to a trade agreement that could have been much, much better. and they were prepared to actually stand up to the country. in the end, the conservative party decided that they didn't want to upset the eu too much and of course we had the whole northern ireland protocol, which so i'm, i'm, i be in a very lucky position actually, because northern ireland, labour party don't even allow people, they don't allow candidates. you can join the labour party in northern ireland, but you can't vote for them. so i'd be in the position where have make that where i don't have to make that big about how vote big decision about how i'd vote at election. i'd be at the next election. i'd be voting for probably a more local, local party's in northern ireland, i do still, you ireland, but i do still, you know , i think of the labour know, i think of the labour party as the kind of people that i so felt close to when they

were in the commons. people like peter shaw who just could make the most wonderful oratory . the most wonderful oratory. denis healey you know, some of them who i just don't feel we get that kind of. but that's just because i'm getting old and l, just because i'm getting old and i, i don't know. i don't know if that's true. actually, i you may be right that we simply don't get those sorts of politicians . get those sorts of politicians. so we touched on your desire to leave the european union, which actually was a mainstream view in the labour party. well, that's that's the irony isn't it, that years ago i mean i voted against the maastricht treaty because john smith , who treaty because john smith, who was leader then, had spent months opposing all sorts of things in the maastricht treaty. and then when it came to the final vote, we were ordered to abstain and i voted against and i got rung up by john smith that night and was sacked from my very, very high important job of being a junior junior shadow minister in modem citizens charter campaign. do you remember this? yes i do. but no

one else? no i swear i never went anywhere. so it wasn't just on the european union that you took a different view at the time from the majority in your party fox hunting . so tony party fox hunting. so tony blair's government banned fox hunting . you were you were hunting. you were you were furious about this. why well, i was an interestingly enough, tony blair writes that i was one of the biggest mistakes he made. and i saw it as a libertarian issue . i'm and i saw it as a libertarian issue. i'm very keen on and i saw it as a libertarian issue . i'm very keen on not issue. i'm very keen on not doing not banning things that are not causing harm . and i are not causing harm. and i really felt that the people who were pushing it didn't actually understand the countryside, didn't understand. i was born and brought up on a farm. i understood rural areas and i understood rural areas and i understood the importance of, of, of the kind of wider areas around fox hunting that it wasn't about actually going out necessarily just to kill foxes.

it was about all of the things that went along with that. and i felt also that the management of foxes was going to have to happen. people accepted . some happen. people accepted. some foxes had to be killed . and foxes had to be killed. and particularly if you lived in rural areas on a farm and i also thought that the alternative methods like shooting was actually much worse because sometimes the foxes wouldn't . sometimes the foxes wouldn't. and i just got really annoyed with the kind of class thing about it, you know, it was they all said, oh, it's all these rich people going around and horses. i actually didn't understand it again. within labour's history, there were miners know, hunting miners hunts, you know, hunting was something was part of was something that was part of the our area. the fabric of our rural area. and i just didn't see it in the simple way that they wanted ban or not ban. how did your labour colleagues, they hated it, treat you? did you do what they nice to your face? i remember speaking on the second reading of the private member's bill first. yes, right. foster's party was very brave to take such a different position. and i

remember that alan johnson was sitting beside me and he'd no idea. i'd not said to anybody. and i got up and made a speech about why i didn't think it should be banned and talked about rural areas and all. and i remember and i sat down and alan said to me, oh gosh, that was brave . and i mean, i didn't, brave. and i mean, i didn't, i did at the time realise that it was quite a shock to many of my colleagues, but to be fair, there were some of them who came up to, look, i don't agree with you, but, you know, good, honest, least stuff you've you've spoken out. but then there some nasty ones there were some very nasty ones as well. coming up, more from kate hoey after the break. there is doubt about it is absolutely no doubt about it in mind, i think in most in my mind, and i think in most people's mind someone who people's mind that someone who is trans cannot ever really compete on a fair basis with a woman .

when i was, because obviously i was in parliament this time i just didn't remember that you had done this . so in when jeremy had done this. so in when jeremy corbyn became the leader of the labour party, the labour party descended into civil . war it was descended into civil. war it was very unpleasant. most labour and ps did not vote for jeremy to corbyn lead the labour party. we all voted no confidence in the vast majority. you didn't . it vast majority. you didn't. it was very it wasn't. he hadn't been leader that long and there was a group within the party who didn't accept it and out to get him from day one and didn't agree with things that he was saying . it wasn't that i agreed saying. it wasn't that i agreed with everything he was saying , with everything he was saying, but i did feel that there was a lot of hypocrisy around about the way people were just using this as an opportunity to get rid of them. and i think there were quite a number of us who

decided, not necessarily because we he was the best we thought he was the best leader be the best leader or could be the best leader, but simply because we didn't think that it was actually a fair thing to do and actually a fair thing to do and actually , i was i knew jeremy actually, i was i knew jeremy for a long, long time , and he for a long, long time, and he was a bit like me because we were both london mps. we used to rush out in the evening and go off to our constituencies and do work grouping groups and work with grouping groups and campaign groups and pensioners groups , all of that, and come groups, all of that, and come rushing back in for the 10:00 vote to see all our nice or call our colleagues just recovering from a nice dinner, having sat around in the evenings, not having anything really to do. that's of the problem of that's part of the problem of not being london mp. and not being a london mp. and i find , you know, and jeremy was find, you know, and jeremy was a really hard working constituency mp and i liked him . that didn't mp and i liked him. that didn't mean to say i agreed with him and i just felt that was too soon to be kicking him out when he hadn't really had an opportunity. do you think? i mean, i kind of knew he was

never going to be prime minister i think we did. jeremy we i think we all did. jeremy we back jeremy be back in. back in? sirjeremy be back in. yes, think he should. could yes, i think he should. could anything make you rejoin the labour party? no you don't know . i think does it hurt to say it and it did in the immediately after i left, i did feel a bit bit sad about it all as quickly because some of my colleagues that i did like and get on with were disappointed my mother was very, very sad and father were both very, very strong. labour supporters, even though there was no chance of voting for labourin was no chance of voting for labour in northern ireland. and i think , you know, my mother was i think, you know, my mother was was disappointed then. she was a very, very fanatical anti european union and she said to me literally died a few months after the referendum . so she saw after the referendum. so she saw our vote to leave. but i remember her saying to me so clearly, you know, they'll never let us leave . and i'm kind of let us leave. and i'm kind of glad she didn't have to live through that awful time and

watching parliament because she watched parliament a lot . i watched parliament a lot. i think she would have been very, very upset by that. now, you are a rare politician in many ways, but also because you have other interests than in politics or the passion does so. in 1966, you were northern ireland high jump you were northern ireland high jump champion. you were northern ireland high jump champion . you worked for jump champion. you worked for football clubs. all right, correct me if i'm wrong, but football clubs. all right, correct me if i'm wrong , but the correct me if i'm wrong, but the list i found was arsenal, tottenham hotspur, queens park rangers , chelsea and brentford rangers, chelsea and brentford as an educational advisor. rangers, chelsea and brentford as an educational advisor . yes, as an educational advisor. yes, i went and ended up working particularly for arsenal it was my club and i the great pleasure of looking after his apprentices. the youth team that then went to on win the league . then went to on win the league. in 1989 the year i was elected when they beat liverpool and michael thomas who had lived in my constituency then it was dufing my constituency then it was during my by—election when i was elected and he was very kind and came on my election leaflet, the picture of the winning team, the

two of us. so that was nice and i loved i loved football and i loved sport . the reason i raise loved sport. the reason i raise your interests in sport is because this is a final question that i want to ask. there's a and it does often sound feel fierce debate at the moment about trans women in sport. on the one hand, people say, well, it's not fair because trans women have biological advantages. on the other side , advantages. on the other side, people say trans women must be allowed to compete. there are women and stigmatised enough already and they should be able to compete on equal terms . do to compete on equal terms. do you have feelings about that? yeah, i said very strong views. i mean, i very, very keen for young people to get involved in sport, to compete to all sport, to compete to enjoy all of that. sport gives you of that. that sport gives you not the winning, the not just the winning, but the how properly. and all of how to lose properly. and all of those is those things. and there is absolutely no doubt about it in my mind, and i think in most people's minds that someone who is trans cannot ever really

compete on a fair basis with a woman and therefore , i think woman and therefore, i think sport is going to have to look at if they want to have have a separate category , that's the separate category, that's the you know, i don't want to stop trans people not being able to participate, but it is just not fair. and you look at some of the ridiculous things that have happened with . but in swimming happened with. but in swimming in america and some of the things that happening here. and i just think people have to use a bit of common sense and realise that it's not ever going to be fair and that it's going to be fair and that it's going to put up an awful put off an awful of people from getting involved that involved in sport. and that doesn't to say that you're doesn't mean to say that you're anti—trans. think anti—trans. and i just think it's so sad now that we can't have a proper discussion and debate on sensible terms on this without people being absolutely pilloried and being accused of being anti—trans when they they are not. it's very rare to me a and listen to a politician who i think genuine only has

independent views, not afraid to express those views. i think that's been the hallmark of your entire. well, i'm not tribal. i try not to be tribal because i never liked tribal politics and thatis never liked tribal politics and that is a is a virtue of some people might say otherwise . that people might say otherwise. that is not common in our politics. and it it's really refreshing to hear that independent streak which has been your trademark kate hoey thank you . after the kate hoey thank you. after the break, it's james sunderland and i think for any officer in command making sure people are safe is the toughest .

james sunderland, elected in 2019 and we're going to talk about your time serving our country a bit later in the interview. but first of all, i want ask you about something want to ask you about something

you said recently, i found you said recently, which i found chilling, it was in relation to the two mps david amess and jo cox, who were murdered . and you cox, who were murdered. and you said this that they amis and cox won't be the last. heaven forbid it happens again . won't be the last. heaven forbid it happens again. but it's a question of when. not if. what we have to do is everything in our power to prepare us for those situations. let's just break it down. tell me why you said those things. first of all, they won't be the last. well, civil reasons. first of all, i was the last mp to see david amess alive. we flew back from carter together , had a great carter together, had a great trip, and he was dead. 36 hours later, kim leopard 2 friend of mine, she's been outspoken recently about this and she's absolutely right . so the threats absolutely right. so the threats are there we're not sure what the threats are. the threats are many. and i think it's incumbent upon all of us as mps to do what we can to protect ourselves. but that's not just about physical protection. it's also

counter—surveillance . it's about counter—surveillance. it's about understanding what the threats are briefings in are. it's about briefings in westminster and becoming part of the solution. because unless we part of the solution for our own security, we will always be at risk. tony what sort of things you might have in mind? first of all, tell me about your own personal security. well, are personal security. well, we are very careful. don't advertise very careful. we don't advertise surgeries in advance. we have surgeries in advance. we have surgeries week . but the surgeries every week. but the location's disclosed until location's never disclosed until the minute. i'm quite open the last minute. i'm quite open and free the constituency. and free in the constituency. i'm well after locally. the i'm very well after locally. the people have been fantastic to me . but ultimately, i think if you put yourself in a place and date and time, you're courting risk. we're also quite liked on social media, so we are quite careful. i think movements as well, very movements come and go different times. just make sure that that the mps are doing what they can to be looking after themselves. do you take any protection of your own apart from not advertising, that you will be in advertising, that you will be in a certain time at a certain

place? are there any personal measures that you want talk too much about my own security reasons, but we do take precautions . i'm never alone. we precautions. i'm never alone. we have people with us. the police are on call locally if we need that. are on call locally if we need that . but so far, thankfully, that. but so far, thankfully, we've had cause to call upon that support. and i think ultimately if you are decent and honest and fair and treat people well , as i try honest and fair and treat people well, as i try and do then, then hopefully we wouldn't have cause to use . but hopefully we wouldn't have cause to use. but but i do. i do completely sympathise with my friend and with virginia crosbie . they've made the decision to deploy extra measures and why wouldn't you support them ? and wouldn't you support them? and you talked about some of the more intelligence related measures that that could be introduced . do any introduced. do you have any sense of what they might be? you also talked about training in the house of commons. what sorts of things do you have in mind? yeah, i mean, think at the yeah, i mean, i think at the moment mps looked after terms moment mps looked after in terms of the estate, a ring of being on the estate, a ring of being on the estate, a ring of steel there. we got good security. the speaker clearly is

the owner security on the risk owner for security on the risk owner for security on the estate, but it's off the estate. concerns me and estate. that concerns me and think we need a closer relationship with local police. i to i think we need to have a committee set up in parliament, perhaps it parliamentary perhaps call it a parliamentary security all security committee where all of the stakeholders that might be involved protecting mps to be involved in protecting mps to be on that committee, but face it, it isn't just mps, it's also key workers, it's also mp staff, it's all those in the firing line on a daily basis. and i think we have to broaden the debate to make sure that all those are well protected in the course of their duties. have you ever felt threatened? no . ever felt threatened? no no. thankfully yes. physically no. tell me a little about you've been threatened online. well, i think the toxicity we see now onune think the toxicity we see now online is there . it's very online is there. it's very apparent. i think it's and people of all parties face that it's abuse. it's vitriol. people attempt to degrade you what they do is they try and defame you . do is they try and defame you. they are looking for

accusations. and what it does , accusations. and what it does, it stokes the fire of division and hatred and abuse. it's designed deliberately by political activists to make me and my colleagues of all parties look bad in the eyes of the electorate. it's a very dangerous game because what that doesis dangerous game because what that does is raises stakes. and, of course, the debate that we haven't had yet is to what extent the level of online abuse might to physical abuse. might lead to physical abuse. i believe connection. believe there is a connection. we dial the whole thing we have to dial the whole thing down and make sure that down and just make sure that politicians operate freely politicians can operate freely without all the unnecessary toxicity of the online thing . toxicity of the online thing. social media companies are know no . i think social media companies are know no. i think the social media companies are know no . i think the online safety no. i think the online safety bill going through at the moment is a good one. online harms are there. of course. it's more than just everyone. just politicians. it's everyone. it's young children. i think it's young children. but i think that the bosses of these online companies need to be better held to account for the material that appears online. if it's defamatory , vitriolic, abusive, defamatory, vitriolic, abusive, it needs to be taken down very quickly . now, let's go to your quickly. now, let's go to your pre mp life . you served our

pre mp life. you served our country , served in the british country, served in the british army for 27 years, somewhat the toughest moment was in those seven years. i did eight operational tours. in the end so away a lot a lot a lot of separation the armed forces do a fantastic job. they earn their money, called upon to do lots of different things , any manner of different things, any manner of tasks coming in, i think if i'm being brutally the toughest moment probably was in my iraq tours in basra a real threat i'd use with direct fire and i think it was difficult when i was out there for the second time that we were doing the drawdown talks, we had to basically draw down theatre, bring it back to the uk, redeploy good order at the uk, redeploy good order at the same time as maintain an operational so i was operational posture. so i was being quite direct, i'd say, making sure that your , your, making sure that your, your, your troops, your soldiers that they see you serve alongside a safe. and i think that for any

officer in command make a choice . people are safe is the toughest challenge. and you must there must have been times it was simply impulsive all to maintain some of your troops safe and you'd have lost people . perhaps you witnessed that loss at close quarters . it's loss at close quarters. it's difficult for most of us to imagine what that might be like. yeah, i mean, i think different theatres are very different. the threats that we face are very different depending upon where you done multiple you war. i've done multiple tours last 26, 27 tours over the last 26, 27 years. i take my hat off to my colleagues in infantry and in the combat arms who are there doing every day. huge risk , doing it every day. huge risk, great people. was a logistics great people. i was a logistics officer, so not always in the direct line of fire, but nevertheless with the asymmetric warfare that we face these days, the threats are there for everyone maintaining that everyone and maintaining that safety managing risk was safety and managing risk was part of the job and it remains true. today, we ask a lot of our people who serve overseas and at home with the armed forces , and

home with the armed forces, and we need to look after them and do we as a country give those who have served our country enough ? thanks it's the most enough? thanks it's the most heroic imaginable yet. an estimated 3 to 6% of people sleeping rough, some served in the armed forces . yeah, i mean, the armed forces. yeah, i mean, i think it's i think we have to be careful analogy because of course, not all veterans might battle, said the vast majority, living perfectly successful lives and the demand for the services that veterans have and the skills they have is really acute . so you don't find many acute. so you don't find many people who are struggling to find meaningful work. but for those that do struggle, we absolutely the role to look after them . and i commend people after them. and i commend people like ben wallace, johnny mercer and others who have taken this forward . the offer is very good forward. the offer is very good ptsd is being dealt with very effectively now of courage, of course, other initiatives, the armed forces covenant . so armed forces covenant. so i think we're getting much, much better now. first of all,

identifying those in need and then their issues. so then resolving their issues. so i'm more confident that i'm much more confident that this will best this country will be the best place in the to world be a veteran. so i mentioned that you were lectures in 2019 that huge moment, a huge landslides. were lectures in 2019 that huge moment, a huge landslides . what moment, a huge landslides. what followed? cos we had culverts to deal with, but the political turbulence that followed . the turbulence that followed. the 2019 victory that would have been a very must have been a very destabilising environment for a new mp to find themselves in. how would you describe it? well, i was very late in practical , got an well, i was very late in practical, got an opportunity or grabbed it the association and very supportive won the election. i left the army with six days notice. so it came as a complete shock to me. the army literally opened the door or kicked me out, closed the door. i got what i asked for. the

eminent employer and i owe them a lot. but in terms of the turbulence you mentioned. well the brexit election , the the brexit election, the majority then of course , we've majority then of course, we've had the brexit legislation itself , so we've had a whole itself, so we've had a whole series of turbulent events that have made the last three years quite . but i think i quite difficult. but i think i was very well placed to deal with that from my background. but give them credit. younger colleagues blessed colleagues who are blessed perhaps same life perhaps with the same life experience i've got, have experience that i've got, have done take my done brilliantly. and i take my hat to all of my colleagues hat off to all of my colleagues in nine 2019 in the more than nine 2019 intake. they're all people intake. they're all great people and brilliantly and and the done brilliantly and i think, you know , many of them, think, you know, many of them, most of them will retain their seats through sheer hard work. they work hard. the diligent. all right. all right . all right. all right. all right. all right. so i'm trying to get you to pubush so i'm trying to get you to publish ethical . i won't use the publish ethical. i won't use the word beginning with a storm, a political storm, three prime ministers, and then in as many months, that's a lot to deal with emotionally . but put it

with emotionally. but put it into i mean, maybe you say, no, it's not. it's fine. well, i think through prime ministers in three months is completely not. i mean, i think it's fine. it depends how you deal with things, but this is politics. it's unstable for it's been very unstable for a while. we've had a turbulent parliament. great parliament. we've got a great prime now. we've prime minister now. so we've been on journey and actually been on a journey and actually i think that most of us, in terms of colleagues , dealt very of colleagues, have dealt very well it has been well with it and it has been vitriolic toxic times and vitriolic and toxic at times and difficult but we have to difficult times, but we have to believe in what we're doing. i believe in what we're doing. i believe conservatism, and believe in conservatism, and i think ultimately, if you believe in have the in that, you have the conviction, you can then it's easy through . you easy to push through. you resigned. you were a parliamentary private, straight at the time of your resignation. you resigned on the 6th of july 2022 in protest at boris johnson's conduct . i mean, johnson's conduct. i mean, that's not a normal let people in, let people into . it is like in, let people into. it is like that day when you said , i've got that day when you said, i've got to go. yeah, tell me that day was quite extraordinary actually . it was like dominoes falling

one off the other when boris johnson referred to the pack mentality . i johnson referred to the pack mentality. i don't johnson referred to the pack mentality . i don't think mentality. i don't think necessarily that was the case. but you had individuals who perhaps had had enough. it was very toxic. the inbox, it was difficult having to defend the government all of the time. partygate was difficult . i think partygate was difficult. i think you get to a certain point in politics where you have to draw stumps and embrace the new. that's what i did at the time. i love boris, fantastic politician . they were great friends, brilliant prime minister. and i would never, ever speak ill of him. he did a great deal for our country and he's revered now by so many people. but i think at that point in time it was the right thing to do. liz truss experiment didn't quite work, although her vision was probably right in terms of growth, growth, growth . we now have got growth, growth. we now have got a in number who is calm, a guy in number 10 who is calm, he's cautious, is competent, instilling confidence instilling real confidence across i have across the party. and i have every confidence that will do every confidence that he will do a great job for the next election and beyond final question, you you said at the

beginning of this interview that you were the last mp to see david amess. yeah 36 hours later, after that conversation , later, after that conversation, you said he'd been murdered . you said he'd been murdered. when you heard that she had just been speaking to him pretty much the day before. so yeah . tell me the day before. so yeah. tell me , what was your reaction? what happened to you? what what did you do when you when you heard the news? um, i became very close to david very quickly . close to david very quickly. great mentor, friend to me . and great mentor, friend to me. and we travelled together, went to school together and scattered together. so i thought the world of about an hour before of him and about an hour before he was killed, he sent me a text. i laughed . it was text. i laughed. it was brilliant. an hour later, a colleague phoned me to say that he'd been stabbed in in leon c and we heard later that afternoon that he'd been killed . and i was at crowthorne fire station doing a visit . i got the station doing a visit. i got the call, got the text , knew it had call, got the text, knew it had

to be true and the world went know as it would do for any of our colleagues who who before that ultimate fate and you know when virginia crosbie says means do more and better says let's do more the risks are there and i think that we can't afford to negate those we have to manage those risks all the way through . and i think at this point in time there's more work to do. you know, david was a fantastic mp, great guy. he was decent. he was honest, a great personality , great fun. we need more politicians like him . i think politicians like him. i think i've enjoyed getting to know. you better say james sunderland .thank you better say james sunderland . thank you. thank you . thanks . thank you. thank you. thanks for watching. join me again next sunday .