welcome to the show. first up is former conservative cabinet minister justine former conservative cabinet ministerjustine greening on why she opened up about being in a relationship with a woman . you relationship with a woman. you can't be your best if you can't be yourself . dave penman, leader be yourself. dave penman, leader of the top civil servants trade union. on the bullying allegations facing the deputy prime minister dominic raab. we think more than two dozen civil servants come forward. eight separate complaints , three separate complaints, three different government departments over a period of four years that used tissues at the ready. the

conservative mp cheryl mccrory . conservative mp cheryl mccrory. and my worst fear i've had . it's and my worst fear i've had. it's bizarre that it's happened to me was that i would have to go through childbirth, would not have a baby at the end of it all. that's up to you. news. i'm tatiana sanchez in the gb newsroom, lancashire police are working to identify a body that was recovered from the river wyre. it was located in the area where the mother of two nicola bulley disappeared more than three weeks ago. they're currently treating the death as unexplained and say her family has been informed of the latest development. the home secretary suella braverman has described the news as hot , breaking suella braverman has described the news as hot, breaking and distressing . former detective distressing. former detective chief inspector mike neville says the post—mortem examination might not give us the information about what happened . there'll be a formal identification of the bodies, obviously if it is. nicola has

beenin obviously if it is. nicola has been in the river a long, you know, nearly three weeks or more than three weeks. but what they what whether the post—mortem can ever us whether she entered ever tell us whether she entered deliberately or by accident , deliberately or by accident, perhaps we'll never know. she's been too much speculation in this case of course, we've had all sorts of pupils going down there and causing even more hurt to the family. so the sooner the police can get the most of the identification done. i'm sure they'll be keen to get that information out . a cop and information out. a cop and a minister says boris johnson's intervention on the northern ireland protocol is not unhelpful because there's still plenty of work to be done . mr. plenty of work to be done. mr. johnson is warning that scrapping the bill would be a great mistake . it comes a day great mistake. it comes a day after rishi sunak and the european commission president said they've made very good progress on fixing problems with the post—brexit trading arrangements . the protocol bill arrangements. the protocol bill introduced under johnson gives introduced underjohnson gives the uk the right to ignore eu rules and the leader of the house of commons, penny mordaunt

, believes that gives the government a stronger bargaining position. i think it's, it's helpful to remind and the eu that we have the northern ireland protocol bill. it's helpful to remind them what those expectations are . and but those expectations are. and but i would also just say that, look, we there are encouraging signs that there is people are saying there's a lot more to do, but progress is being made . sir but progress is being made. sir keir starmer says under no certain answers will labour do a deal with the snp. addressing a party conference in edinburgh , party conference in edinburgh, he urged scottish voters to put their faith in labour in the wake of nicola sturgeon's resignation . sir keir says he resignation. sir keir says he can bring change scotland needs and the tide is turning on the tories and the snp over 15 years in power . and tories and the snp over 15 years in power. and what do tories and the snp over 15 years in power . and what do they have in power. and what do they have to show for it.7 honestly it's always somebody else's fault and the reason is simple . they're

the reason is simple. they're not truly invested in scotland's success. anything scotland achieves within the uk is met with gritted teeth , seen as a with gritted teeth, seen as a roadblock to the one true goal. whatever happens in the coming months , my message is the same months, my message is the same no deal under any circumstances . meanwhile scottish health secretary humza yousef and former minister ash regan have announced they're in the race to replace nicola sturgeon as snp leader, revealing their plans in the sunday mail . they're the the sunday mail. they're the first to declare their candid to sea for the contest . environment sea for the contest. environment minister miri mccallion has now said she is not standing but is still thought. finance secretary kate forbes could be a contender. nominations closed next friday and the winner will be announced at the end of march . the us secretary of state has

warned china will face serious consequences if it provides lethal military aid to russia . lethal military aid to russia. antony blinken spoke to the country's top diplomat, wang yi, on the sidelines of the global security conference in munich. the us believes beijing is considering sending weapons and ammunition to russia for the war in ukraine, which china denies . in ukraine, which china denies. and the musical program for the king's coronation has been revealed . an anthem written by revealed. an anthem written by composer andrew lloyd webber is one of 12 new pieces to be played during the ceremony. best known for musicals, including the phantom of the opera and jesus christ superstar, he said he's incredibly honoured to have been asked. greek orthodox music will also be played on that playlist. a personal request by the king charles as a tribute to his late father . tv online and his late father. tv online and dab plus radio is gb news. i'll have more news for you at the

top of the next hour . top of the next hour. just in green and rotherham , just in green and rotherham, born and bred. very proud of that. born and bred. very proud of that . the first new family to go that. the first new family to go to universal city has some big jobs in the conservative government. education secretary, economic secretary to the treasury . transport secretary . treasury. transport secretary. international development. secretary . is sort of fell out secretary. is sort of fell out of love with boris johnson's government before you stood down in 2019. what happened? are you still a conservative? i'm still a card carrying member of the conservative party , and we conservative party, and we basically had the whip withdrawn. so it was probably more the party leadership falling out with me in a sense . falling out with me in a sense. and i think obviously that was around brexit and the fact that

i represented a very remain constitu and c and want to faithfully do that in my job as a constituent mp. of course, the irony was the whip being withdrawn was the fact that i was really unhappy about the northern ireland approach at all in the bill that the government was trying to get through parliament. and i guess with hindsight the government ended up concerns , but at up sharing my concerns, but at the they weren't on the the time they weren't on the same page, but i was probably one those people just lucky one of those people just lucky enough that i was really worried about working. and that's about it not working. and that's that correct. but no , that was correct. but but no, you know , i think brexit was one you know, i think brexit was one of those issues where people were taking a particular particular position on the broader levelling off up work . broader levelling off up work. boris, boris and i were 100% augned boris, boris and i were 100% aligned on all of that. and the priority. you're all parties, obviously, since you left and actually just in the run up to you standing down from parliament has been to a turbulent time . we now have

turbulent time. we now have rishi sunak as prime minister. did you vote for him, by the way? i've never said, oh, that's fair enough. having a fair enough bit of time . i was enough bit of time. i was interested an article that interested in an article that you wrote for the yorkshire post recently. month you said recently. last month you said this sunak has sought to portray himself as a better manager. as prime minister at ten downing street. it's crucial , but not street. it's crucial, but not enough. street. it's crucial, but not enough . this is the line that enough. this is the line that really interests me . running really interests me. running britain is not the same as leading it, just expand on what you meant by that. what i said, i think in politics, if you really want to drive, change and create a better version of britain, which is for me what it's all about. there are times when you have to go, right, we're going this way and there'll be some people who don't agree with everything you're doing. there'll be other people who think it's brilliant. but actually it's just that sheer clarity and single mindedness . sheer clarity and single mindedness. it's sheer clarity and single mindedness . it's the, sheer clarity and single mindedness. it's the, i think the country needs right now, particularly on levelling up, which does require an ambitious

policy agenda, but it is much , policy agenda, but it is much, much more than that. it's about how businesses change and employers look at their opportunities. it's about almost society and what we should expect in terms of the opportunities we get in our lives and that is a really fundamental different version of britain and in the sense you're not just going to run from britain better and have it happen, people expect government to be run well. that's the least they expect what they also want to see is a really very different, fairer version of britain created after brexit. i think the sense of take back control was actually people saying , i don't feel if i work saying, i don't feel if i work really hard that i get on anymore. and that's not acceptable. and for me that is as much about a levelling up agenda as it was about our country's relationship with europe . and so that's the agenda europe. and so that's the agenda i think sunak really needs to passionately say, i am going to do this and i am going to drive

change and i'm going to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. i'm going to but i'm going to do what it takes to deliver for the communities like we grew up in, whether it's bradford, whether it's waited too it's rather a move waited too long, my view, for things to long, in my view, for things to feel like they're getting better. little better. we need to talk a little bit more about politics. but i just wanted to take you back to june 26, and this is a happy memory. i assume you revealed on twitter that you were in a happy same sex relationship if you previously had relationships with men. mm hmm. so talk me through what changed. or perhaps nothing changed. perhaps sexuality is just fluid. put it in your own words. i think i just met someone who i fell in love with, and it was just simple as that. and actually , i simple as that. and actually, i think it's just such a good example of you just have to follow how you feel about something and be happy actually. and that is the most important thing i think, in anyone's life . you know, you put a lot of

your time into work, into the things that you might care about, but fundamentally you should be doing things that make you happy and so when i met tessa , i did kind of think, god tessa, i did kind of think, god , i can kind of tell how i'm feeling . but, you know, maybe feeling. but, you know, maybe that was a bit of a surprise, but i just thought, well, this is to important to me to sort of think, well, hang on, that doesn't quite fit with no what i was expecting. so there you go. and we're still together , still and we're still together, still very happy. so yeah, but it was i think i think that moment when i think i think that moment when i was done, the tweet , but i i was done, the tweet, but i hadnt i was done, the tweet, but i hadn't pressed i hadn't touch that bit of screen, you know , i that bit of screen, you know, i just remember thinking somehow my life's going to change. and i thought based on everyone else, i'd kind of listen to people like david mondale, a really great mate of mine in cabinet. i thought it would change for the better. but before you do that ,

better. but before you do that, you're not sure and really none of this should have to go through any of this, actually. but i think whilst we're on that journey , then i'm part of how we journey, then i'm part of how we can normalise things and make people realise it really isn't. it it's probably not that interesting . so yeah , i remember interesting. so yeah, i remember thinking, right, this will be different afterwards. i'm not sure how it was different . way sure how it was different. way better, so much better. and you'd been in the relationship with tests for several years before you went public. what held you back ? oh, just, i think held you back? oh, just, i think worry about what people would say and also i think i just wanted a bit of space. if i'm honest for something. the was maybe really important to me. and i thought actually , if i'm and i thought actually, if i'm happy and were happy, then i'm not sure i need to do an announcement. but after a while i thought, actually, if i don't , i'm part of the problem. monty, because i'm kind of giving an impression that i think there's an issue when i don't think there is. so i just

thought, let's just get on with it. and you're senior it. and you're very senior politician time. did any politician at the time. did any of colleagues treat you of your colleagues treat you differently? i think differently? no. i mean, i think this the whole thing. got this is the whole thing. i got this is the whole thing. i got this of response this flood of lovely response from parliament i remember from parliament and i remember matt cooper coming up to me and from cabinet colleague eggs and from cabinet colleague eggs and from the wider world. i mean , it from the wider world. i mean, it was it was to some extent, you know, felt it wasn't at all a non—event, but actually in terms of for other people in that situation, it just was better afterwards, you know, going back to what i campaigned on, on social mobility, you should you can't be your best if you can't be yourself. there were there were personal interviews as a cabinet minister , i just didn't cabinet minister, i just didn't do because i just thought, what am i going to say if they say in passing , oh, am i going to say if they say in passing, oh, you am i going to say if they say in passing , oh, you know, am i going to say if they say in passing, oh, you know, and you and relationshipjustine passing, oh, you know, and you and relationship justine and and a relationship justine and i just thought and i couldn't ever lie . do you see what i mean. lie. do you see what i mean. that would have been untenable for . so i tended to not do for me. so i tended to not do any of that stuff and i just thought, this is ridiculous. it's so , so, so sort of, you it's so, so, so sort of, you

know, you being open. i think is really important for people to be themselves at work. right. back to politics. so we're in a penod back to politics. so we're in a period of strikes in two of the sectors where we're seeing strikes, schools and transport as they were cabinet positions that you held . would you at a that you held. would you at a time of industrial unrest , get time of industrial unrest, get around the table with those but with the unions that are striking to try and hammer out a deal and i'd always get round the table with them and not when things went wrong and there was a strike. so i remember seeing people like bob crow and that's how i got to know francis o'grady when i was at transport ports the general secretary ports and the general secretary tuc general checks, we went to the looking at the work we could do together getting more do together on getting more women into transport, sort . you women into transport, sort. you know, my dad works in british steel. he was on strike, you know, in the 1980s. i don't

think he wanted to be on strike, but he was. and so i grew up in a community where i really understood and saw the role that unions played. i didn't always agree with how they use that power but i and power in a sense, but i and i also understood the bad reasons and how my dad was treated often at work. why those sorts of conditions for people really, really matter. so now i'd always enjoyed seeing the unions and particularly the teaching unions and my pitch to them was there's bound to be areas where we disagree , but actually less . disagree, but actually less. never let that stop us from working on the stuff that we all passionately do agree on. and we can make some progress on and actually , you know, we're grown actually, you know, we're grown . are we not going to agree on everything that they would always understand? there was an affordability issue on pay, but what i needed to do as a secretary stay was to understand where they were coming from and understand the broader issues in

the workplace and to what extent , you know, i can go there maybe on pay, but but it's easy for me to try and take all the steps that can also help. and i think that's just seeing how you can meet people on their own terms, but at least doing it, understanding where they're coming from and not having a disagreement because you haven't bothered to even find out really where they're coming from . now, where they're coming from. now, social mobility is your life story , but it's also been your story, but it's also been your passion , your hallmark passion, your hallmark throughout politics. and it is what you have dedicated your life to. post parliament. so you run the social mobility pledge , run the social mobility pledge, which works with businesses to get businesses to sign up to how they can be better at social mobility in their workforce . is mobility in their workforce. is there a particular company that stands out to you that you work with that you think that company it really gets shop floor to top floor? i can think of one that's

a facilities management and it genuinely has worked out how a huge diverse workforce that it has that can get in and get on and get right to the top. and in and get right to the top. and in an era where we're all talking about cost of living, all of that really matters. now, you can argue that there are no low paid roles, only employees who haven't worked out how people in those roles get the next step up the ladder and get not just the learning and development they need, but the confidence and the support and if you like, the additional stuff to be able to always say, right, here's where i go next. that for me is really important. and the social mobility pledge was about really getting companies to think as innovatively about people as they had thought about planet. in a nutshell, gloria and i was saying to them, look, every single one of your opportunities can change your life. and so if i think about what happened to my after i left the my own life after i left the education system i was

education system and how i was able to progress all of that was in the private sector. and so they all businesses they were all businesses i worked who who of took worked for who who kind of took a about what a decision about what opportunity i get next. so opportunity i could get next. so my to them was you were my point to them was you were actually going to be the people who deliver levelling up. and even i'd been an education even if i'd been an education secretary closed every gap secretary and closed every gap that happens in the education system pitch them wasn't system, my pitch to them wasn't is if you're not open to that wider talent pool, is if you're not open to that wider talent pool , then we won't wider talent pool, then we won't drive levelling up . we talk drive levelling up. we talk about social mobility. we tend to think about education, which is of course correct, but this issue of employment and opportunity has really been a black box. and you spent a long time in politics, as i did. and really we just tend to talk about unemployment levels, don't we? we're not really talking about almost this quality of work . and can the role you're in work. and can the role you're in open up the next step for you? and is that fair at the moment? and is that fair at the moment? and the answer is it's not always fair. an opportunities aren't always open and tackling. that's a key way that will drive

social mobility . good luck with social mobility. good luck with that. it's been a pleasure to chat to you covered a lot ground thank you justine greening thanks for having me . coming up, thanks for having me. coming up, dave penman . leader of the top dave penman. leader of the top civil servants trade union. if you want to raise a complaint against the minister, you've got it. there's no rules. there's no procedure you can go to. there's nothing can go on writing. coming up, is conservative mp carolyn mccall . it's carolyn mccall. it's heartbreaking. we went in the next day to have the injection which put potassium into my baby's heart and she would die . baby's heart and she would die. and that is the hardest thing that i anybody would do

dave penman , general secretary dave penman, general secretary of the first division association, that is the tragic union that represents top civil

servants. what's it like having politicians for your boss and. well i think for civil servants , they enjoy having politicians as the boss because a lot of them have joined the civil service to make a difference. they lots of people do the sort ofjobs they lots of people do the sort of jobs that we represent and have chosen public service when they could have gone elsewhere . they could have gone elsewhere. and they do that because they want to make a difference. they want to make a difference. they want to make a difference. they want to influence ministers. they want to support government. they want to support government. they change the world. they want to change the world. why? a of politicians come why? a lot of politicians come into so they want to into government so they want to work closely with ministers and support ministers and what they do. that's what drives them to become civil servants and drives them to get the top of the them to get to the top of the civil service. okay. talk civil service. okay. let's talk about the allegations that have been made from some of your members in relation to the deputy prime minister dominic raab, you said in a previous

interview that some civil servants were bullied , allegedly servants were bullied, allegedly and suffered mental health cnses. and suffered mental health crises . really? yeah i mean, the crises. really? yeah i mean, the cases i've been dealing with those individuals , it's taken those individuals, it's taken a lot for them to come forward with a complaint. it's not an easy thing to do to complain about a minister. it's never easy to challenge that sort of behaviour and they've done that because they absolutely devastating effect had on them. now that's been investigated . now that's been investigated. that's right. that that investigation concludes and concludes on the facts that people are bringing forward to . people are bringing forward to. but when i see stories that kind of belittle the conduct and suggest that civil servants are snowflakes, are some former ministers have talked about this. it doesn't really chime with the evidence and the experience of those that i've dean experience of those that i've dealt with. so that's why i

talked about that. but the impact it's had on people and this investigation while it is going on. dominic raab has said he has behaved professor only at all times, just want to put that on the record. obviously the investigation will take its course. how do you define bullying? and there is no legal definition of bullying . and so definition of bullying. and so it can take many forms. it's often characterised around shouting and swearing. the accusations against another minister are around shouting and square and remind us who that was . ms. patel square and remind us who that was. ms. patel and square and remind us who that was . ms. patel and the evidence was. ms. patel and the evidence suggested that that's what she had done. she shouted and swore her civil servants can. all would have denied that she died, but she was found guilty of it by and by an independent investigation and it can take the form of micro—aggressions. it can be about control, it can be about demeaning individuals. people don't have to shout to endeavoured to intimidate people. so bullying can take many forms. it's an abuse of

power that at its heart that's what is and where you have a differential in a power dynamic . so a government minister in this case a deputy prime minister, one of the most powerful people in the country, and a civil servant working for them, then putting only you can have an abuse of that power relationship and as i say, it can take many forms and most people working life have come across police. you know, you you'll have experienced that as i've managers or what colleagues you'll have seen what it looks like . and i think that's why like. and i think that's why it's quite insulting when some people talk about this and talk about, you know, how the management or, know, management or, you know, demanding lot people . demanding a lot from people. everyone knows difference everyone knows the difference between a bully and a good manager who is demanding and expects high standards . they are expects high standards. they are very things. so at the very different things. so at the time of recording that has a piece the financial times piece in the financial times we're recording on on thursday, the day that piece appears , it the day that piece appears, it makes reference to how the

deputy prime minister deals with policy papers submitted by civil servants grading them on a scale of 1 to 4 or some people might say, well, that's helpful feedback is, is that bullying ? feedback is, is that bullying? it depends, because a suspect what you're getting and this is difficult to just know as you're getting a partial picture, you're getting isolated instances taken out of context and seen as not one thing on its own building . if you can and seen as not one thing on its own building. if you can imagine if someone created 100 rules around how you perform , and many around how you perform, and many of which could be contradictory and was demeaning and insulting to you if you if you didn't meet any of those hundred potentially contradictory rules, you could take one of those rules out and say, well, that in itself isn't important. but after 100 drills and that make it impossible, essentially for you to do your job properly or to do it to the level that's expected, then that's when you can see how those patterns of behaviour can

potentially become bullying in control . and just to stick with control. and just to stick with this financial time piece , they this financial time piece, they spoke to five senior civil servants . four said they servants. four said they believed dominic rock's conduct involved bullying the fifth defendant, the deputy prime minister and highlight the discrediting of officials papers as a way for him to assess whether the quality of department level material was improving or not over time. so it's tough, isn't it, because there are the same people doing there are the same people doing the job now. admittedly a majority of the civil servants , majority of the civil servants, not the financial times , spoke not the financial times, spoke to, suggested there was a bullying culture , accused him of bullying culture, accused him of bullying, but another one said, well, no, it's fine and different people react to behaviours in different ways . it behaviours in different ways. it also can depend what the nature of your relationship as an individual. and so it depends on that power dynamic you're working directly for someone. do they have that power over you or are you perhaps a more senior

person who's kind of peripheral and just some of the some of and just see some of the some of the bits of conduct around when you with that you interact with that individual, can very individual, it can be very different, again, different, which is why, again, when government when another government minister, sable, you know, dominic raab anybody else is dominic raab or anybody else is never going to believe he's always been with but always been good with me. but you've because you've would expect that because the between the power dynamic between a minister and other people, particularly those at the cabinet is going be cabinet table, is going to be very different those within very different from those within division of civil servants. so there's to be lot. and there's going to be a lot. and that's that's why that to be that's that's why that has to be a proper investigation. but we're talking about at this point we think more point in time, we think more than civil servants than two dozen civil servants come forward, eight separate complaints, three different government over government departments over a penod government departments over a period of four years. so all of that has to be investigated. that doesn't mean he's guilty, but it suggests there's something quite substantial here around his conduct that so many civil servants and it's not easy to complain about a government minister so civil servants minister. so many civil servants have come forward over such a long period of time. what complaints and we need to find out what that is. that's why

it's important that it's really important that someone this someone looks at all this evidence says , well, evidence and says, well, actually, is the impact actually, what is the impact of this about bullying this? the issue about bullying is about what people this? the issue about bullying is it's about what people this? the issue about bullying is it's aboutout what people this? the issue about bullying is it's about what1at people this? the issue about bullying is it's about what the 3eople this? the issue about bullying is it's about what the impact do, it's about what the impact of what they of what they do . of what they of what they do. after the break, dave penman reveals who the best cabinet ministers are to work with. michael gove, very respected , michael gove, very respected, full of civil servants . on mark full of civil servants. on mark dolan tonight in my big opinion is rishi sunak on the verge of a brexit breakthrough ? boris brexit breakthrough? boris johnson got brexit done . it's johnson got brexit done. it's sunak can make brexit work. it will be a turning point for his premiership, but it might take a ten. prince andrew is likely to be turfed out of hi s £30 million be turfed out of his £30 million royal lodge with king charles tightening the purse strings . tightening the purse strings. good news. it's time the pompous prince paid his own way. good news. it's time the pompous prince paid his own way . and my prince paid his own way. and my more means guest is brexit supporting tory legend sir bill cash. we're live .

at nine does the process work? the process where people feel they are being treated badly or bullied at work , the process by bullied at work, the process by which they can raise their concerns. obviously, it is not normal when they are elected. politicians appointed by the prime minister. it's completely dysfunctional. so if you want to raise a complaint against the minister, you've got it. there's no rules. there's no procedure you can go to. there's nothing can in writing you raise can go in writing and you raise it your permanent secretary it with your permanent secretary that taken to the that then gets taken to the cabinet it gets to the cabinet office. it gets to the prime minister and the prime minister an minister has to agree to an investigation. the prime investigation. so the prime minister can veto the investigation. sunak investigation. and rishi sunak had put had an opportunity to put that aside. they've recommended aside. they've been recommended to the committee for to him by the committee for studies public that studies in public life that there be fully there should be a fully independent process. decided independent process. he decided not that wants not to have that. he wants to retain political control , only

retain political control, only he on the outcome of it. he decides on the outcome of it. and we saw what happened with the priti patel investigation. the prime minister was forced into investigation a into an investigation because a permanent secretary resigned. he sat on the report for six months because when we took boris johnson to court to challenge his decision on that, this all came out and when it was eventually forced out of him, he refused accept to refused to accept to the evidence and the recommendations from independent advisor from his independent advisor that taylor breached the ministerial code , even though ministerial code, even though she found have sworn and she was found to have sworn and showed it's over . servants showed that it's over. servants resulting in the resignation of is adviser that had is independent adviser that had a chilling effect across the civil servants because it basically it doesn't matter basically said it doesn't matter about the evidence . the prime about the evidence. the prime minister no interested and minister has no interested and your welfare . he's interested in your welfare. he's interested in his own political expediency and i've spoken to civil servants in that case who have said that when they saw that decision, they said they weren't going to complain they knew there complain because they knew there was what the was no point. what should the process completely process be? completely independent. scotland, independent. so in scotland, after what happened with the

former first minister, there were two separate inquiry things. as a result of that we want the scottish government and we independent we fulfil the independent process. a complaint process. you raise a complaint as investigated , as independently investigated, as independently investigated, as independently investigated, as independently determined , so as independently determined, so they , as someone finds they, as someone finds independent from the first minister, whether there's guilt or innocence on that accusation andifs or innocence on that accusation and it's for the first minister to decide punishment . so we are to decide punishment. so we are separate in the power to the prime minister or the first minister from the actual investigative process to be fair to prime minister sort of to the prime minister sort of indicated dropped heavy indicated dropped very heavy hints that he will act. would people interpret as he will sack dominic raab if the bullying finds him guilty ? well, yes, he finds him guilty? well, yes, he said that but also he's refused to answer the direct question of whether he was aware of bullying allegations against dominic raab when he appointed him. so five times he refused to answer that direct question, behind direct question, hiding behind the fact that had been no formal complaints and when he appointed, has adviser in december after this investigation was launched, he

decided to keep the ring that bofis decided to keep the ring that boris johnson had for his ethics adviser, which he retains adviser, which means he retains adviser, which means he retains a over this investigation a veto over this investigation and only he determines the outcome . yes, said some outcome. so, yes, he said some positive things and he talked about integrity and accountability he walked accountability and he walked in to judged to parliament. we'll be judged by on this . and up by his actions on this. and up to there are questions to now, there are questions about actions about the choices and actions that taken . it be that he's taken. it must be quite a difficult for quite a difficult time for dominic raab. it must be incredibly stressful enquiries, you not quick. you know, they're not quick. these we don't know . but these things we don't know. but if was me it would be causing if it was me it would be causing me sleepless, sleepless nights . me sleepless, sleepless nights. is there danger that your is there a danger that your bullying ? i don't think you can bullying? i don't think you can say that people . who are say that people. who are accusing some of the most powerful people in the country ? powerful people in the country? a kind of reverse bullying? it's really, really difficult to challenge that sort of behaviour in workplace. it's almost impossible in the civil service of the process that you have to go through and the hoops you have to jump. you cannot underestimate how difficult it has been for these individuals to what should to challenge that. what should have happened to you? because if

there was other workplace there was any other workplace and dominic raab was any other employee, would been employee, you would been suspended. employer was suspended. if any employer was faced with this level of accusations, the breadth of it , accusations, the breadth of it, the scale of it, they would have taken decision to suspend someone while, those that conduct investigation and is conduct an investigation and is not. still in post? and the not. he still in post? and the prime minister has refused to do that. so dominic raab not that. so dominic raab is not being worse than other being treated worse than other employees. treated employees. he's been treated better than any employee up and down will be down the country. it will be treated as if people in the department moment department go to at the moment it will be it can be easy. you imagine working in that department and having had the courage to raise a complaint against the deputy prime minister the country, and still having walk in front door having to walk in front door when he's the minister at that point time, that cannot be point in time, that cannot be easy individuals who easy for those individuals who are the are still working in the department. and i know it's not for easy civil servants who are not working in the parliament. no one wants to in this no one wants to be in this position. one wants to position. no one wants to have to name revealed to to have their name revealed to the deputy prime minister. as someone who's complained against

them, no one wants to deal with that. want these things that. they want these things to be more effectively be dealt with more effectively and let and it takes a lot and let on. and it takes a lot to actually come forward and raise sort complaint. so raise that sort of complaint. so i imagine it's like i can't imagine what it's like to of those complainants to be one of those complainants working where working in a department where dominic raab stole the secretary of let some and bring of state. let some and bring some positive attack. as we conclude this interview , first conclude this interview, first of all, can you give some advice perhaps to cabinet ministers on how they might be a good boss? are there exemplars out that you think, you know what that cabinet minister was really great. so it's interesting when you talk to civil servants quite often the public persona of ministers is not necessarily what the experience and they'll talk about ministers who perhaps have got quite a bad reputation that between really good ministers , the civil service has ministers, the civil service has a duty under its code to provide ministers with the best profession panel evidence based advice . that's why we have advice. that's why we have a permanent and impartial civil servant. so the civil service says the most of this is what

the evidence shows. minister, you make a decision on this. but this is my advice. i don't good ministers listen to that. they respect advice. can respect that advice. they can disagree that. they disagree with that. they ultimately decisions , but ultimately make decisions, but they that civil they understand that civil servants are doing their to job provide, which quite often can be challenging. as a minister, you can come with preconceived ideas and find those challenged by the evidence . that's the by the evidence. that's the nature of politics and government, but actually understanding and respecting that even if you ignore what you're free to do as a minister and but also need to and but you also need to encourage them because that challenge , why the civil service challenge, why the civil service is that we used meet is set up that we used to meet for better government to for better allow the better policy, to allow the civil service to essentially to some degree challenge those preconceived ideals, even though ultimately make the ultimately ministers make the final decision that makes for better policy decisions and gets the difficulties out of the way. and ministers need to create an environment where they welcome that good ministers environment where they welcome thébecause good ministers environment where they welcome the because the good ministers environment where they welcome thébecause the calli ministers environment where they welcome the because the call forinisters environment where they welcome the because the call for them 's environment where they welcome the because the call for them of do because the call for them of their own ability, the confidence of views, and confidence of their views, and that also confident enough to

change their mind if the evidence something evidence suggests something different. that's what good ministers doing this plainly are good out there good ministers out there wants to out as a to single anyone out as a particular exemplar. you don't have to know. mean, there are have to know. i mean, there are plenty them. i mean, people plenty of them. i mean, people often michael gove. often told that michael gove. right. so about right. you know, so talk about very minister and very high profile minister and michael gove, very respectful of his civil servants has a really good reputation for civil servants and he understood the nature of being a minister is a difficult job and he understands and respects the value . the and respects the value. the civil service, lord mandelson was a very popular minister when the labour government meals and applauded been returned back to the dti spontaneously. good stuff because again he spoke to civil servants there and said he was really respectful of their opinion , understood his role, opinion, understood his role, which make decisions, which was to make decisions, understood role of civil understood the role of civil servants, which to give them servants, which was to give them robust . penman it's robust advice. dave penman it's so important on this channel, on this program , we get the views this program, we get the views of trade union leaders, that we get views from across the political spectrum. fascinating

to hear your thoughts because you have a very unique job representing workers in a very unique situation. dave cameron, thank you. thank you very much . thank you. thank you very much. coming up, conservative mp charlotte mccrory, she handed me my baby and i spoke to her for a little bit and i gave her a kiss and still didn't. she was go actually and then i said goodbye

charlotte mccrory , conservative charlotte mccrory, conservative mp since 2019. very nice to meet you. thanks for having me. we're going to talk about a very tough experience that you went through in interview. i'd like to take you back to the 3rd of january 20, 19 when you and you back to the 3rd of january 20,19 when you and your husband were at a routine 20 week scan,

first, second baby. so i was pregnant. a second baby already had a four year old, beautiful four year old girl. and no problems with the pregnancy . i problems with the pregnancy. i was over 40, so i'd gone through the 12 week bit. where you think that's where you're going to have worries. that's where you're to see age related. you're going to see age related. i've abnormalities that all i've abnormalities and that all gone . they gone brilliantly. they were really with way the really happy with the way the pregnancy going. they were pregnancy was going. they were happy me to go to maternity happy for me to go to maternity led to give birth again. led unit to give birth again. so, you know, perfectly healthy went 20 can went along to the 20 weeks can actually my husband almost didn't because were that didn't come because we were that relaxed about how things were going he did goodness going but he did thank goodness and we i lay there and they and we lay i lay there and they put the gel on and there was a big pause. anything. crikey well it was a hoping that just finding what's happening. and then the words i ever then he said the words i ever forget, which are something's not right. and you just freeze. actually you freeze. and you wait and wait and wait. and they say, yeah, something's not right. there's problem with the spine. this problem with the brain. but what he can't do is

diagnose what's happened because he's just looking at the baby's picture. so you know, we're frozen. we're sort of trying to hold back the tears and hoping for the best. but they and so when you go for these scans where i live, it's a maternity led unit locally to me. so what they did was make an appointment at main hospital. we went at the main hospital. we went over that was over very quickly. so that was amazing. you know, panicking amazing. and you know, panicking along the way to wonder what's going this same day, going to happen this same day, same within hour and same day, within an hour and a half or whatever. and then you meet and they you meet the consultant and they you know, something's to go know, something's going to go horribly wrong because they met you the bereavement, you with the bereavement, bereavement they bereavement midwife and they were . but you were so, so lovely. but you just, you know, you're just waiting them tell you waiting for them to tell you what is what and we didn't what what is what and we didn't know she was little girl at that stage. just we stage. you know, you just we were sort of family that were a sort of family that didn't find out, we were didn't find out, say we were waiting that surprise. and waiting for that surprise. and that relevant i come that is relevant to what i come to a bit later. so they diagnosed very, very, very severe our baby severe spinal bifida in our baby . and she was already very , very . and she was already very, very badly brain damaged . but the

badly brain damaged. but the tragedy for me there was i'd already felt her kicking for quite a number of weeks. so for me, she was just a very healthy little so it was very little girl. and so it was very difficult to compute what was going on there . and then they going on there. and then they stayed with us for an awfully long time. and you sort of wait for them to tell you what happens next. and i just assumed that i would be going under a general anaesthetic and in inverted commas it would be taken of. and my worst fear taken care of. and my worst fear that i've had , it's bizarre that that i've had, it's bizarre that it's happened to me, was that i would have to go through childbirth, would not have a baby at end of it. so when baby at the end of it. so when i was that that's what they was told that that's what they expected to do, that was the worst bit for me. i think there's lots of this and there's lots of ways this and then you, they're not allowed to tell you that you're going to terminate the pregnancy. they kind of that was the shake of the head. you know, there's nothing they can do. and so you have to sign a form that consents to infanticide. that's the word they use. and we went

in the next day to have the injection in which i put potassium in to my baby's heart . and, and, and she would die. and that is the hardest thing that i anybody would do. it's completely counterintuitive to what a mum or a parent is expected to do . you know that expected to do. you know that the team there couldn't have made it any more bearable because really were very kind to us. but there's no getting away from it . you have to have to go from it. you have to have to go through that and it takes about a procedure, takes about ten or 15 minutes and i was so, so frightened because you just you know, it's just completely counterintuitive . so that was on counterintuitive. so that was on the friday. and then you have to wait 48 hours before you can deliver. it took a longer time to deliver this baby than my original, my first pregnancy, eight and a half hour. yeah, yeah. labour. and then and yeah. labour. yes. and then and finally my waters broke and she delivered very quickly after that. and that the whole thing

was , was how differently my was, was how differently my husband and i dealt with this because i think for men sometimes certainly at the 20 by the 20 week scan, often it can be a pregnancy, whereas you're carrying the baby, it's a baby and.so carrying the baby, it's a baby and. so and that's not a criticism at all. i think it's just the way things are often processed. and he just, you know , couldn't face seeing her actually , which is fine because, actually, which is fine because, you know , everybody has to cope you know, everybody has to cope with it in their own way. so when she delivered, he he went out and went for a walk and rang family and that sort of thing. and the midwife, there was a new midwife that just come on. and she was amazing. her name was kat and she she handed me my baby and i spoke to her for a little bit and i gave her a kiss and still didn't know she was go actually and, and then i said goodbye and i'll never forget the who she she just said , is it the who she she just said, is it okayifi the who she she just said, is it okay if i take your baby outside

to look at the stalls and that which made her feel like a real person actually. so and so when we talk about the nhs stuff , we talk about the nhs stuff, thatis we talk about the nhs stuff, that is the that is the kindness that is the that is the kindness that we're dealing with. i don't ever forget it. sorry and then time. yeah. and then and then we went home and the tragedy of our story was next day was my husband's birthday. so it was kind of, we were just desperate to get it all done and dusted before his day. so the in years to come that remained his day and the previous weekend remained lily's weekend . and remained lily's weekend. and then it was after that that i was told she was little girl. and we named her and it all became very real. and the reason why i think the difference between how my husband saw this and how i see it is relevant , between how my husband saw this and how i see it is relevant, is because the advice i give to anybody who has gone through losing a either two weeks, losing a baby either two weeks, delivering , is that

delivering or later, is that parents will they'll grieve in very different ways. and at the start that i heard at the beginning was that 50% of relationships will break up because of an experience like this. and so the advice i gave is lean on the outside of the family because the person that you expect to lean on might not be there for you and it's not their fault. so yeah , how do you their fault. so yeah, how do you mark memory ? whenever i can mark memory? whenever i can actually . i'm usually alone, actually. i'm usually alone, usually by myself . so we don't usually by myself. so we don't mark her anniversary as such . mark her anniversary as such. what i do is i have little mementos around the house, little angels, sort of little angel ornaments or baubles on the tree or something like that that i know are lilies . and i that i know are lilies. and i have a memory box and other thing that hospital, some space hospitals do well now, which is where give you lots of where they give you lots of memories of your baby. you can you have little memento where you have little memento where you off they took off you took off and they took off and photographed , you know, and photographed, you know, little keepsakes . and i keep it

little keepsakes. and i keep it hidden and then when i want to and i want to think about her, i'll look at it. and i'll remember that day. but like now, actually, it's been a while since of her tears and i have to say to anybody who has gone through stories going through their stories going through their stories going through that through this, it feels like that pain go away. but it pain will never go away. but it gets much, much easier. and you find you go for days find actually you go for days without not without thinking about them, but without it owning . you said more needs owning you. you said more needs to be done to support bereaved families have lost babies. families who have lost babies. what would you like to say to them? well, when i joined the all party group for baby loss as all party group for baby loss as a new mp , the reason a brand new mp, the reason i went was because we were looked after. so so well in the hospital . but where and after. so so well in the hospital. but where and this is no fault of theirs , where that no fault of theirs, where that where there was lacking afterwards was the follow up counselling and we relied on the charities i was given some counselling through my work but my husband was never , ever my husband was never, ever offered, i think it was offered but it was never able and it was never taken up. he, he , he was

never taken up. he, he, he was never taken up. he, he, he was never given a date where he could go in and talk about what had happened with any of the bereavement counsellors at hospital. and i think it was a resource thing, so i didn't want the men to forgotten in this, the men to be forgotten in this, everybody asks how, mum everybody always asks how, mum is getting on. they kind of there's is still a feeling that dad should be there to support mum. and it was my very strong feeling that actually parents, they needed to be supported equally and that was the reason i went along to that first meeting and was the most busy all parts of group meeting i'd been to. i mean, a lot of them have. yeah, these are the cross ropes. yes a lot of them you just get, you know, one or two employees who are desperate, trying to do something. this had over 50 people sitting in the room not all parliamentarians, people sector people from the sector be briefed. and they talked briefed. parents and they talked about the national care bereavement pathway which is what we had obviously experience very successfully in cornwall , very successfully in cornwall, but it's not in every trust, it's not mandated to be in every

trust. so what i like to do is mandate that for every trust. so i'd like to see every trust coming forward to say that they now that in place that all now have that in place that all parents get cared for in the same way that we did. but also, i'd like to add to that to make sure all parents get those sure that all parents get those follow counselling sessions follow up counselling sessions together or separately, probably follow up counselling sessions togetisuccessfully tely, probably follow up counselling sessions togetisuccessfully separately )ly more successfully separately so that their that they can grieve in their own still there to own ways and still be there to support when the time support each other when the time is and so that's number is right and so that's number one. and number two, we just need have more more staff in need to have more more staff in the maternity area so the maternity maternity area so that when more specialised that when a more specialised staff maternity area, so staff in the maternity area, so that things go wrong that when things go do go wrong in , parents will in every trust, parents will listen to and their wishes are carried out . how long does you carried out. how long does you have counselling ? i have six have counselling? i have six weeks. so i was a cornwall councillor and it was through there that i was able to access that counselling and it was just a kind lady who works at home council said you do know you or you're entitled to do this. normally wait about three normally they wait about three months a brief before they

months after a brief before they start. but actually i had start. but actually my i had mine early and go mine quite early and you go through of emotions through all sorts of emotions one week you're just in shock another week you can be disbelief, you know , how how has disbelief, you know, how how has it happened ? anger. i raged at it happened? anger. i raged at the world a lot in my car by myself. and i think, you know, it's just it's the normal grieving process. and i think when you lose a baby, though, there's an extra i'm the only word i can use for it's primal. where you just need to be pregnant and have your baby with you and i used to try and joke with people use the analogy of when penguins steal other eggs because they've their baby because they've lost their baby . that is that feeling. . it's that it is that feeling. it's just a feeling. they it's just a primal feeling. they have over that. have no control over that. you'll minute you were you'll one minute you were pregnant, now you're not. pregnant, and now you're not. there's there yeah there's no baby there. yeah final question . the government final question. the government has this target to halve rate of stillbirths and neonatal deaths by 2025 . | stillbirths and neonatal deaths by 2025. i think it's stillbirths and neonatal deaths by 2025 . i think it's not stillbirths and neonatal deaths by 2025. i think it's not very

long the way to the need to do more and each step. oh, what's the most important part of that ambition ? so we had an inquiry, ambition? so we had an inquiry, i think last year where we were about halfway through that and they were on track actually, which was great. and but what it's staffing. staffing staffing is all i can say in the energy sector. it's about what it's what we hear in the in the nhs all the time. it's about retention, it's about looking after your staff, a vocation to be a midwife . it's certainly be a midwife. it's certainly a vocation to be a brilliant midwife it's one of the hardest jobs that people can do. and very special people do it. and so we need to give them all the support can and the other support we can and the other shocking i have found shocking thing that i have found while this role is that if while doing this role is that if you're black or from an ethnic minority, you are far more likely to lose your baby and actually potentially die in childbirth . and that's something childbirth. and that's something that's this . and one that's come out of this. and one of the things we can use to counter that is the continuity of care. so the midwife or of care. so the same midwife or couple midwives throughout couple of midwives throughout your pregnancy, also your entire pregnancy, it also helps you're living in social

helps if you're living in social deprivation, there are if deprivation, if there are if there's worries of lifestyle issues , domestic violence at issues, domestic violence at home, coercion , that sort of home, coercion, that sort of thing. if you have the same midwife, amount of midwife, the amount of difference can to difference that can make to the baby the outcomes is baby and the mum's outcomes is phenomenal. so i'm a huge advocate for trying to make sure that has a continuity that every mum has a continuity of pregnancy . it's of care in their pregnancy. it's a huge privilege to, to, to meet you , to listen to you , for you, you, to listen to you, for you, to be so open about the trauma that you've been through . you that you've been through. you talk about the solutions that your campaign . for for tissue, your campaign. for for tissue, both of was i think. thank you cheryl in the car. thank you so much. thank you . i'm back next much. thank you. i'm back next sunday at six. thanks for watching watching . watching watching. hello there. welcome to your latest update from the met office . i'm jonathan vautrey . office. i'm jonathan vautrey. you do have a few sunny

intervals around this afternoon, but the general theme for the next few is a cloudy one. next few days is a cloudy one. frontal systems pushing their way across the northern half of the uk. will bring a more the uk. it will bring a more unsettled picture here. although we have high pressure in the south, feet of southwesterly south, the feet of southwesterly winds the atlantic winds coming in off the atlantic is slowly the clouds here is slowly build the clouds here . so a few clear intervals for central south eastern areas of england this evening england throughout this evening . tending to build . but the cloud tending to build up we move throughout the up as we move throughout the night bits of drizzle night and some bits of drizzle are possible for northern ireland. of western ireland. parts of western england more england and wales, more extensive into extensive rain moving into scotland. this will be accompanied some, accompanied by some, particularly up to particularly strong winds up to 60, an hour are 60, 70 mile an hour gusts are possible. so take care here possible. so just take care here underneath the cloud, though, it's going a mild night it's going to be a mild night for of some places for all of us. some places holding around degrees holding around 11 degrees celsius . the rain across celsius. the rain across scotland tend stall into scotland will tend to stall into monday, it could turn into monday, so it could turn into a fairly damp and drizzly day here for the north of that will be some sunny intervals for the northern going northern isles, but it's going to remain particularly gusty across northern across shetland for northern ireland, england and wales it will be a cloudy day. the odd

break is possible, perhaps for parts of harwich, northumberland. so temperatures could reach 56 degrees celsius, but retain that cloud as we move into the evening period. again, some drizzle is possible . the some drizzle is possible. the rain in the north gradually shifting way off more into parts of the highlands and eventually clearing its way off to the northern isles as well . but the northern isles as well. but the vast majority of us will again remain frost free as we move into the start of tuesday , into the start of tuesday, looking to be another fairly cloudy for of us. again cloudy day for all of us. again the odd glimmer of sunshine might come through, but for most of us we will see fairly great skies into wednesday. we'll start this frontal system start to see this frontal system shift its way of eastwards shift its way sort of eastwards across country. and that across the country. and that will bring in a slight change to our weather. we feeling in our weather. we start feeling in some winds and so it some northerly winds and so it will turn brighter for a time. but we'll also see temperatures just falling off. just falling drop falling off. that bit. well, enjoy your day . that bit. well, enjoy your day. i'm andrew doyle. join me at 7:00 every sunday night for free speech nation the show right . speech nation the show right. the week's biggest stories in

politics current affairs. with the my two comedian the help of my two comedian panellists and a variety of special guests , free speech special guests, free speech nafion special guests, free speech nation sunday nights from seven on gb news

channel good evening. i'm tatiana's sanchez in the gb newsroom lancashire police are working to identify a body that was recovered from the river wyre. it was located in the area where mother of two nicola bulley disappeared more than three weeks ago. they're currently treating the death as unexplained and say her family has been informed of the latest development. the home secretary suella braverman has described the news as heartbreaking and distressing. former detective chief inspector mike neville says the post—mortem examination and might not give us information about what happened.