well, hello there. it's 6:00 michelle dewberry and this is dewbs & co. hey, well, what can dewbs& co. hey, well, what can i say? dewbs& co. hey, well, what can i say.7 stoma have you been following his five point plan .7

following his five point plan? today's focus is all about houses. apparently we need more of them. and apparently, labour are the party to make it happen. he says that he will basically overhaul the planning system in this country. is that the answer? and by the way, it's all well and good, isn't it? building more houses. but do you reckon even be able to afford health in the first place and what on earth is going on? do you remember a teacher in batley whose still the way, is in whose still by the way, is in hiding ? well, i mean, what 20 hiding? well, i mean, what 20 year old minutes drive away. we now have a situation where you've got four kids who've been suspended in wakefield because a copy of the koran was damaged. what on earth is going on? i mean, i have to say. last time i looked, i think blasphemy laws were outlawed. in about 2008. wasn't there ? very strange, wasn't there? very strange, i can you. getting into can tell you. but getting into that i've got answer that one and i've got an answer , it's going to fix so many of the problems that we're experiencing in experiencing at the moment in the public you ready the public sector. you ready for? simple for? it's very simple performance related pay. you performance related pay. do you think is what we need to

think that is what we need to tackle all these backlogs , which tackle all these backlogs, which quite everywhere ? quite frankly are everywhere? well, collection of jobcentres well, a collection of jobcentres are trialling that as we speak imminently. will that fix britain's worse? and then as i told you yesterday, i want to talk rubbish with you, but i was rudely interrupted by our prime minister talking about the west, the windsor frameworks . so the windsor frameworks. so tonight i'll be picking that back up. what do you make of the goings on when it comes to waste collection in this country? you've to get you've got to now get appointments to you appointments to go to skips, you know, how many know, goodness knows how many bidders response ability bidders whose response ability is recycle things when i'm is it to recycle things when i'm bored of that, to come and mop up let's bring ourselves up first, let's bring ourselves up first, let's bring ourselves up speed with tonight's up to speed with tonight's latest headlines . michelle, latest headlines. michelle, thank you and good evening to you.the thank you and good evening to you. the top story on gb news tonight, a couple that went missing with their newborn baby in january have been further arrested on suspicion of gross negligence . manslaughter, negligence. manslaughter, constance marten in and her

partner mark gordon were found in brighton yesterday and were initially arrested on suspicion of child neglect . more than 200 of child neglect. more than 200 police officers are searching a 91 square mile area to try to find the two month old baby . find the two month old baby. sussex police say they're making a assessments about the baby's welfare on an hourly basis . i welfare on an hourly basis. i think whilst we still have hope that the baby can be found safe and well, we must retain that hope. and as you see, the number of officers we have deployed on that open search. however as time progresses , as the week is time progresses, as the week is closing tonight, as it was last night, in terms of the cold and the coldness and the impact that would have on a baby, clearly the risk is getting higher and we have to be open to the fact that this may not end in the way we would like . well, in other we would like. well, in other news today, the prime minister visits northern ireland to try to convince unionists to support his new trade deal with the eu. rishi sunak insists the so—called windsor framework

burke address his concerns around the northern ireland protocol and urged the dup to return to powersharing at stormont . the deal removes stormont. the deal removes barriers on trade across the irish sea and allows stormont to veto eu laws affecting the flow of goods . but still it includes of goods. but still it includes a role for the european court of justice . tory backbenchers and justice. tory backbenchers and the wp are still reviewing the detail. if there is a significant eu law that comes along, that will have a lasting and significant impact on the everyday lives of people here in northern ireland, that the assembly will be allowed to pull the emergency brake and it's built on something called the petition of concern mechanism, which is the good friday agreement institution requires the support of 30 mlas from two parties, and once that's done , parties, and once that's done, so be crystal clear. the uk government then does an government then does have an unequivocal veto . and what i've unequivocal veto. and what i've said is that uk government said is that the uk government wants sit down with the wants to sit down with the parties ireland. the parties in northern ireland. the assembly , to codify the uk assembly, to codify how the uk government would use that veto .

government would use that veto. thousands of teachers are striking across england and wales for three days this week in their ongoing dispute over pay - in their ongoing dispute over pay . the in their ongoing dispute over pay. the national in their ongoing dispute over pay . the national education pay. the national education union says schools in the north of england are restricting access for pupils or fully closing schools . education closing schools. education secretary gillian keegan has called the action on forgivable and said children deserve to be in class . and said children deserve to be in class. union members in the midlands and the east will join the picket line tomorrow with more walkouts in wales and the south of england on thursday . south of england on thursday. and the capital is facing significant disruption on the day of the chancellor's budget. as tens of thousands of public sector workers go on strike, 33,000 members of the public and commercial services union, which represents government departments , border force and departments, border force and the dvla , will all walk out on the dvla, will all walk out on the dvla, will all walk out on the 15th of march and they'll join 100,000 civil servants already due to strike that day alongside london underground staff with the union aslef in

separate disputes . it's been separate disputes. it's been confirmed that the husband of epsom college's headteacher died of a single gunshot wound, according to a coroner's inquest today in surrey. george pattison is believed to have murdered his wife, emma and their seven year old daughter leti before killing himself. the three were found deadin himself. the three were found dead in their home in the grounds of the prestigious school in surrey earlier this month , along with a firearm month, along with a firearm which legally registered to which was legally registered to mr. pattinson . grocery price mr. pattinson. grocery price inflation has reached a new record high of 17.1, unless cancel says this means an average increase of £811 to annual household shopping bills. products such as milk, eggs and margarine have seen the fastest rising costs . the impact on rising costs. the impact on vegetable and fruit shortages is not yet included in the new figures . three energy not yet included in the new figures. three energy companies are to bring a high court

challenge against the sale of collapsed company bulb to octopus energy . lawyers octopus energy. lawyers representing scottish power, british gas and e.on all claim there are serious public interest and legal issues with the deal. they're challenging two decisions by the government who approve the takeover and increased a loan to help with the transfer. bulb went into administration at the end of 2021 with around 1.6 million customers on its books and two british trained police dogs will be flown to thailand to help crack down on the smuggling of pangouns. crack down on the smuggling of pangolins . the critically pangolins. the critically endangered species are the most trafficked mammal in the world, according to the world wildlife fund.the according to the world wildlife fund. the labradors bust and bass have gone through eight weeks of training with london's metropolitan police in thailand. the dogs will be sniffing for pangouns the dogs will be sniffing for pangolins being smuggled through airports , ports and by road airports, ports and by road facility . his knees on back airports, ports and by road facility. his knees on back in an acid .

an acid. thanks for that. well, i'm michelle dewberry now. i'm keeping you company right through till 7:00 tonight alongside me, i've got emma burnell, a political consultant . and so beyond the director of the free speech union, good evening to both of you. look how smart toby you look . morning. if smart toby you look. morning. if you are listening on the radio and you can't see and well, you look dapper. i've asked him look very dapper. i've asked him as in court today, he as if being in court today, he says no. i asked him then, are you dressed specifically just for tonight? said for me tonight? you also said no, but i think you might have been. just going been. i think you're just going out though. he out tonight, though. so he told me you the drill on me anyway, you know the drill on dewbs& co, don't it's not dewbs& co, don't you? it's not just about us three here in the studio. it's very much about you guys at home as well. what's on your tonight? you get your mind tonight? you can get in me all the usual in touch with me all the usual ways. that gbnews.uk or ways. gb views that gbnews.uk or you tweet me at news. you can tweet me at gb news. you've already doing you've already started doing

that. you that. you're very keen, you guys. oliver says, michelle, please, can you wish my age model's parents a happy birthday? he says , that's was birthday? he says, that's was yesterday and his mom's is today. apparently they big admirers of the show and we'll be watching that as we speak that's very sensible. what a way to birthday watching to spend your birthday watching troops. i massively approve troops. and i massively approve of that. so happy birthday to you also as well. i'll do a quick patrick, the quick shout out to patrick, the taxi driver . i had the pleasure taxi driver. i had the pleasure of his company today well, of his company today as well, and is listening we speak and he is listening as we speak as s0 hello to all of you, as well. so hello to all of you, quite frankly, tonight, wherever you let's into it then, you are, let's get into it then, shall case soma reckons that shall we? case soma reckons that he is going to overhaul the planning system if he into planning system if he gets into power, build more, power, it will build more, apparently in seven years. and get this than have been built in the last 30 years, put together a pretty much he's saying at the moment. keir starmer, that this scheme that we have it basically favours the wealthy and the many people are indeed struggling which we know to be true. is this sam that just to build more? emma it's definitely a

massive part of the answer. we haven't built nearly enough under successive governments. we didn't build under the didn't build enough under the last government. we last labour government. we haven't enough last haven't built enough in the last 12 years either and a great deal of that, a massive, massive problems with the planning system it's in incredibly difficult to get planning permission to build decent amount of homes and the infrastructure that's needed to support them . we need many , many support them. we need many, many more homes and this is something thatis more homes and this is something that is now being championed on the right as well as the left. and there are great arguments on both sides for it. it's just simply the case that we have a big housing crisis. we have more and more people who are in insecure homes who are renting well into their thirties and forties when it just used to be the case that that was something you did in your twenties, maybe early thirties. we have a massive imbalance in the ability for people to have security and security is what at home quite often can bring you when you own

your own home, you have a certain amount of security don't have. as a renter, we need to expand that opportunity too . so expand that opportunity too. so many more people and this is a big part of doing that. definitely. i mean, you say it's really difficult to get planning permission my into the permission on my way into the studio. can't help but notice studio. i can't help but notice and ifs studio. i can't help but notice and it's london, but and i accept it's london, but there cranes every where there are cranes every where to be tower blocks of be building tower blocks of goodness knows how many apartments. and i look at them and i think to myself it's all well building these well and good building these things, but who on have can actually them and by the actually afford them and by the way stuck in traffic way i get stuck in traffic pretty every day pretty much every single day because these developments of because of these developments of closed pavements and reduce roads and whatever. roads to one lane and whatever. and think some and i sit and i think some developers are getting very wealthy back of and wealthy off the back of my and everyone else is congested traffic trouble. anyway i digress . what do you make to it digress. what do you make to it now. i'm 1, i share your scepticism where i live in west london , tower blocks are going london, tower blocks are going up all the time to have appeared in the last couple of months , in the last couple of months, and there's one being built on the corner of my street. there's another one just on the corner

of where i get on the train. acton mainline station . and you acton mainline station. and you know, keir starmer says that he wants more wind farms. know, keir starmer says that he wants more wind farms . and the wants more wind farms. and the reason there are more wind farms is our planning is because of our planning system. i mean, just he system. i mean, it's just he never leaves the westminster bubble go in bubble anyway. you go in england, landscape is england, the landscape is completely disappear. good bye. these crucifixes. so the these eco crucifixes. so the idea that we need even more and they're being held up because i've never heard them call that. but i think the most serious point is that , you know, point is that, you know, successive governments have come into power or included in their manifesto a pledge to liberalise the planning system so they can solve the housing crisis by building more houses and none of them have managed do it. why? them have managed to do it. why? because unpopular. it's because it's unpopular. it's not universally unpopular, but it's unpopular enough for it to be politically very difficult . he's politically very difficult. he's going to a stonking going to have to win a stonking majority, he's going to majority, too. if he's going to overhaul the planning system, because mps in some because even labour mps in some constituencies they have a lot of voters who don't want development to take place in their backyard . they don't want their backyard. they don't want that they want

that disruption, they don't want the don't want the the noise. they don't want the dirt, don't the dirt, they don't want the parking restrictions. they particularly they particularly don't want it. they live they don't live in rural areas. they don't want views disfigured by want their views disfigured by you crucifixes, you know, echo crucifixes, amongst things . so amongst other things. so politically, . it politically, it's increased. it will be difficult. it's all very well to promise this kind of thing. but unless he wins an absolute i absolute stonking majority, i don't think it will. let's say he's in a coalition with the lib dems. going to allow dems. they're not going to allow him the planning him to liberalise the planning system. is system. half their vote is a nimby, i don't think it's nimby, so i don't think it's going to happen. well, do you think it's fair, i to be think it's fair, i mean, to be a so—called so if you you so—called nimby? so if you you say vote to buy this lovely house, i don't know, wherever. and then apparently there's four houses so you houses on your street. so you think, that's nice. think, oh, yeah, that's nice. relax out there. and relax and chill out there. and then, actually no there's then, oh, actually no there's not now got planning not for we've now got planning permission new permission to build a whole new development and a stay at development there and a stay at the now one around the corner there now one around the corner that be in that wouldn't you won't be in your rights to say actually no i'm i don't i'm going to second i don't want mark need to have planning mark we need to have planning that works for people but we cannot stop like cannot simply stop like have this small cadre people who this small cadre of people who

can their homes down and can pass their homes down and stop having stop everybody else from having any opportunity and are all any opportunity. and we are all londoners. we're all so all our view of this is a little i do not regard myself as like you just talked about your london days problems getting you here. that's what i'm used to. my london based judi. this is what i mean. london we to i mean. london what we need to do and what's really important actually is to make sure that we're building homes and the infrastructure that supports them and the jobs and opportunities everywhere so that it's not just about tower blocks going up for the rich in london, but actually the homes that people near where they grew people need near where they grew up so that they can stay in the communities they grew in. and communities they grew up in. and that a really big part. that is a really big part. important part this. so there important part of this. so there is to be certain amount is going to be a certain amount of back against of fighting back against nimbyism. toby's right in a nimbyism. now, toby's right in a way is politically difficult way, it is politically difficult , which is why i think you do it early, because if cost armour gets any sort of majority stone king or otherwise doing it going early is when you have the good will and when you can get it

done earlier in a term . so that done earlier in a term. so that by that point the pain point has been passed. that's how politics tends to work cyclically . so tends to work cyclically. so i think coming out and saying this now before the election is actually quite an important way of putting down a marker that it will be a high priority rather than something that slips down the political agenda . if you're the political agenda. if you're sitting at home and you want to crunch numbers and you crunch some numbers and you think know well many think you know well how many houses are being built, by the way, to hundred just way, to hundred and 4000, just over were over actually dwellings were completed the uk the year completed in the uk the year ending march 2022, but many people will say actually , it people will say actually, it doesn't matter how many you build because actually the population seems to be increasing left, right and centre. so will you ever have enough properties? well, one obvious solution to the housing crisis, perhaps not the complete solution will to be actually admit fewer people into the country with half a million new arrivals. in the past 12 months. it's not surprising that that's a housing crisis. well, yeah,

exactly. but we also have a demographic squeeze . we have an demographic squeeze. we have an ageing population. we need young people insecure for homes, able to do the jobs that we are just not filling at the moment. now whether that's from abroad, whether that's from abroad, whether it's one of the things that we've talked about in the last is fact that last week is the fact that people getting married or people are getting married or having earlier. one of having children earlier. one of the for is they're the reasons for that is they're not living secure housing. so the reasons for that is they're ncyouing secure housing. so the reasons for that is they're ncyou want secure housing. so the reasons for that is they're ncyou want to ecure housing. so the reasons for that is they're ncyou want to have housing. so the reasons for that is they're ncyou want to have a)using. so the reasons for that is they're ncyou want to have a lower. so if you want to have a lower immigration system, you need to have the kind of conditions where are refilling our own where we are refilling our own workforce naturally internally. now, i'm fairly liberal on immigration of course i am. one of the things that i believe in, but i think there's a right wing closed door argument for also building more houses to ensure that younger people feel comfortable and safe enough to have children earlier. well, i mean, a lot there's a lot of young people, by the way, that don't make responsible decisions in terms of when to have children. they sit children. they don't sit there and think, afford this? and think, can i afford this? what do is i think, what they do is i think, actually, this kid and actually, i love this kid and the taxpayer will pick up the

bill. so there's whole bill. so there's a whole different conversation about that side of things. you mentioned passing down houses, people down houses people passing down the houses to . you wouldn't to their kids. you wouldn't resent though. resent that, though. surely i don't resent passing down don't resent people passing down their as they pay their houses as long as they pay their houses as long as they pay the not so. it's the tax on it. no, not so. it's not about. well, that the estate tax, if they if the house is worth over a quarter million, then you pay certain to then you pay a certain amount to cover that inheritance tax. yeah. rid of that. but well yeah. get rid of that. but well that doing that basically all you're doing then fich that basically all you're doing then rich people much, then is making rich people much, much doing much richer without them doing any work for it. and then keeping rest of us out of keeping the rest of us out of locked out of the housing market. got to have market. you've got to have a balance in things. i would balance in these things. i would i'd of inheritance i'd get rid of inheritance tax and rid of stamp and i would get rid of stamp duty as well. talking specifically much specifically to the how much this country raised, specifically to the how much this country raised , £14.3 this country raised, £14.3 billion the year, 21 to 2022 billion in the year, 21 to 2022 in stamp duty. billion in the year, 21 to 2022 in stamp duty . and i think why in stamp duty. and i think why should if you want to buy a home to live in and settle down and feel safe and do all the things that, as you said, why should you have to repeat italy pay the stamp duty tax every time you move, etc, to have a home? yeah, i'm you that and i'm

i'm with you on that and i'm with you also inheritance with you also on inheritance tax. i mean, people people tax. i mean, the people people have already paid tax on the income they use to purchase their why should they their homes. so why should they have it again when have to pay tax on it again when they pass it on to their children? it should be something that they own outright and can pass to their children pass on to their children untethered the burden untethered and often the burden falls children can't falls on the children they can't afford estate tax and afford to pay the estate tax and so they end up having to sell the house. yeah, that sensible scrapping inheritance tax? no, not because those not at all. because those children nothing to children have done nothing to earn now they earn that money. now they should, we of should, of course we should of course, some to down course, pass some stuff to down our that's natural human our kids. that's natural human instinct they we need instinct. but they also we need to make sure that we have an economic system that doesn't just concentrate wealth into smaller and smaller areas of those and actually those families and actually spread it around to the rest of us as we described, though, us as we just described, though, these are bought from these assets are bought from post the monies monies post tax. the monies the monies of already been of taxes have already been claimed on the money that was used to purchase that asset and then given the next then just given to the next generation those houses generation because those houses go value. my which go up in value. my house, which is small two bedroom flat, has

is a small two bedroom flat, has doubled in value the last ten doubled in value in the last ten years. i've done nothing to earn that don't know. that money. i don't know. so what might it might have what it might have it might have halved value. you you halved in value. you know, you gamble you bought it. it's gamble when you bought it. it's paid off, but might have paid off, but it might have changed but with that changed lives. but with that money at home is going to inherit house. now i'm inherit my house. now i'm childless, niece childless, so my niece and nephew for big bonus. nephew are in for a big bonus. when go off. don't give it to when i go off. don't give it to you. ever gb news% so you can give it to me and by the way, we talk about property being a gamble. you've to do is gamble. all you've got to do is ask the people at croydon council off council a little bit of off topic, look at the state of topic, but look at the state of their finances given a lot of their finances given a lot of the commercial property investments that they did not very but very investment you ask me but anyway. right i will take a quick oh, actually, quick break. oh, actually, now. well, what you well, i'll talk about what you guys saying. colin says guys are saying. colin says we can't keep building housing. michelle losing michelle new homes means losing land that could produce we land that could produce food. we already of our already import too much of our food, he says. it's all about policies, bringing to policies, bringing them in to stop population stop the increase in population . colin do you mean stop the increase in population, i.e. you want to have like a one child policy like china? or do you

mean controlling the immigration flow? i suspect it's the latter, but you can get in touch and tell me. matt says, how does net zero in with that? plans to zero fit in with that? plans to concrete the countryside , concrete over the countryside, jones says cover the country with housing and concrete and then wait for the floods. and then wait for the floods. and then the clothes sit down and blame climate change. phil says how always housebuilding how far is always housebuilding going eventually, all going to go? eventually, all villages towns be villages and towns will be ruined the country ruined and the whole country will become one big, massive housing estate. is that what we all want? i don't know. is it? you tell me. right. i'm going to take a quick break. when i come back, i'll speak to you about something that's certainly got me concern. and you might not have about it. really. have read much about it. really. this a school in wakefield, this is a school in wakefield, about a 20, 30 minute drive from batley. remember that school batley. you remember that school there four there as well. anyway now four kids been suspended because kids have been suspended because a bit minor damage to a little bit of minor damage to the koran. last time i looked, we don't have blasphemy laws in this country. so what earth this country. so what on earth is on? we'll look at that is going on? we'll look at that in a couple of minutes.

hello there. welcome back to dewbs& co with me, michelle dewberry. i'm keeping you company right through until 7:00 this evening alongside me. i've got emma burnell, a political consultant and toby young, director of the free speech union. we've just been talking about housing and what is going on with that case. starmer's promises that he's going to sort it all out. in short , one of my it all out. in short, one of my view is that just got in touch saying, michel, the answer to this is to stop people buying properties just to keep empty. i think you make an interesting point that because i don't think you have a scenario you should ever have a scenario where some random kong where some random in hong kong or whatever buy these or whatever can buy these properties just to properties off plan just to sit there appreciating asset . there as an appreciating asset. i do share your sentiment and your thoughts with that. of your thoughts with that. many of your thoughts with that. many of you just keep saying at what point do we stop building houses ? well, that will be a point that we are not yet at right.

let's move on and talk about situation. it certainly got me concerned . it was of a sketch on concerned. it was of a sketch on notice. concerned. it was of a sketch on nofice.the concerned. it was of a sketch on notice. the fact that we do not have a blasphemy law in this country, i repeat, we do not have a blasphemy law in this country. however that fact is, we're scared a few people. so it does because you know, remember the situation in batley where a school teacher is still in hiding while a mere 20 or so minutes drive away from there from wakefield, we've now found ourselves a situation where we've got four schoolboys who have been suspended after a copy of the koran that they took into school. was it was scoffed? it was mildly damaged. i would say that's how i would describe it. well, to say that this has kicked off is an understood moment. you've had. i'll start with you on this, toby. i find this very concerning . it's been this very concerning. it's been whipped up into a frenzy . you've whipped up into a frenzy. you've had a labour councillor. he's put a statement up on twitter. i mean, talk about an overreaction. he's saying the

school , by the way, is kettle school, by the way, is kettle thorpe high school. he's saying i'm a koran is being desecrated , is a serious , provocative, , is a serious, provocative, what's the word provoking and provocation? thank you. thank him. it's even he says it's a it needs to be dealt with urgently by all the authorities. the police , the school, the local police, the school, the local authority . it calls it terrible authority. it calls it terrible action, terrible provocation. repeat over and over again . i repeat over and over again. i mean, come on now , toby young, mean, come on now, toby young, we've seen a scene now where these four kids have been kicked out. the mum of one of these kids. one of the kids, by the way, is i quote, highly opted stick the moment i have to go to this wearing headscarf this mosque wearing a headscarf off. and me, almost seems off. and to me, almost seems like she's begging for forgiveness , worried about her forgiveness, worried about her child's life . what do you make, child's life. what do you make, tolly? you know, it's really shocking. and to see scenes like this in 21st century britain, it's like something out of, you know, an 18 century for net, actually, religious society in which a mother is having to beg

for the life of her child because he in the course of playing a game, has desecrated some holy relic . it is some holy relic. it is absolutely extraordinary, and i think the reason why the mother has felt she's had to do this kind of appear almost as a muslim penitent in front of this mosque, not saying a thing, but by her actions essentially plead for clemency for herself and her child. the reason the council as a tip toeing around it, the police are involved. even the head teacher has described the koran as a holy book and condemned what happened to it as if it was some terrible crime . if it was some terrible crime. what they're all tiptoeing around is the threat posed by this mob in the background there is the spectre of this mob who may overreact, who may actually attack this child, and his friends who may congregate outside the school. and, you know, that's the problem . that's know, that's the problem. that's the issue here. it's threatening a child , threatening a child's

a child, threatening a child's mother. that's what should be against the law. that's what the police should be investigating. not a 14 year old autistic boy dropping a copy of the koran on the ground. we shouldn't allow ourselves intimidated by ourselves to be intimidated by religious mobs in 21st century britain. we are a secular society. we've abolished blasphemy laws. as you said, we can't resurrect them like this just because there's a mob of unreasonable fanatics who are prepared to kill people who they think of offended, stepped on their sacred values. emma i mean, i pretty much agree . i'm mean, i pretty much agree. i'm an atheist . i don't believe in an atheist. i don't believe in any gods. i don't believe in any sacred text except possibly this one book that is called for , one book that is called for, which is none of it. and i read it every day, but it's not actually a sacred text. now that actually a sacred text. now that actually upset if you if you actually upset me. if you if you dusted my copy and threw dusted off my copy and threw around a little we need to be really , really conscious of not really, really conscious of not winding this up and making it worse . but there is a line that

worse. but there is a line that shouldn't be crossed and that probably has been in terms of the community relations. i suspect these four lads have been actually suspended about. what do you mean? there's a line that's been crossed. well, let me let me so these four lads have probably been suspended. for my teacher would for what? my head teacher would have called extreme. bullied them. being a fatty in them. and being a fatty in school basically and there are strict behaviour codes that they may or may not have broken. if they haven't broken, they shouldn't be suspended. they shouldn't be suspended. they should not be suspended for challenging religion . whether challenging religion. whether that's in a mocking way or a 14 year old way. where the bigger problem lies is other people getting involved in this this this suspension in the school and making it a bigger story, stirring up community tensions that so that you're talking about by that that because is ridiculous and should never have been tweeted by any public this summer then . well you should be summer then. well you should be talking about an individual labour councils. i think if you it that tells me that that

statement i think that i think that the as i understand it that statement's already been taken down which say it speaks to me that there's internal action being taken. i don't know what that is. so i'm not going to comment on it, but if that statement been immediately statement has been immediately deleted councillor, that deleted by that councillor, that means words means someone's other words and good. should done it good. they should have done it right. we have a public right. why? we have a public where then when you've got 14 year because there's year old because there's a decent man who went houseless because disciplinary because there's a disciplinary process to go in terms of process to go to in terms of those public councillors. on the other hand , there aren't we other hand, there aren't we should be you cannot should be saying, you cannot incite violence and we incite mob violence and we should be saying that loudly in publicly. and i think that that is the right response. mob violence is never right. i don't care what it is that you're upset about, it's more violence is not the answer. one of the things i perplexes me a things that i perplexes me a little bit is because i completely understand. i mean, my very best friend in the world is muslim. and i appreciate it is a muslim. and i appreciate it and respect fact that two to and respect the fact that two to her and other people, the koran is a very sacred text. and all

the of it. and the amount the rest of it. and the amount of respect and everything that goes but goes with, i get that. but i guess where i struggle a little bit is why would anyone think that they have a right not to be offended if something sacred to you and you're absolutely entitled for it to be sacred to you you absolutely you and you are absolutely entitled to follow it to the letter and all the rest. it brilliant go you, but what i brilliant go for you, but what i find odd uncomfortable, i'll find odd uncomfortable, and i'll be wrong, is that be honest, wrong, is that when you expand and then you then expand that and then what is only a few law, what you say is only a few law, i've to have exactly the i've got to have exactly the same the same principle, same belief. the same principle, and all the rest of it. that, for me is wrong. i agree. for me is wrong. yeah, i agree. i mean , like you, i respect i mean, like you, i respect islam . i understand the islam. i understand the reverence for the koran and the prophet mohammed , but to go prophet mohammed, but to go beyond that and say you have to observe of the religious precepts that i observe, you have to observe the taboos that l, have to observe the taboos that i, as a muslim, observed. have to observe the taboos that i, as a muslim, observed . even i, as a muslim, observed. even if you're not a muslim , the if you're not a muslim, the

price of living in this country, which is a liberal society , is which is a liberal society, is that you can't enforce your religious maxims , your religious religious maxims, your religious taboos on people who don't share your religious beliefs. just as christians couldn't enforce their views, shouldn't persecute or threaten with death, muslims who may be slightly disrespectful towards the bible or to the figure of jesus christ, one thing that really alarmed me about this, michel, is that the police officer said he reassured , i think when he he reassured, i think when he was in front of the mosque with the counsellor and the mother, he reassured the congregants that this had been recorded as a hate incident . and one of the hate incident. and one of the things the free speech union has been campaigning against is what are called non crime hate incidents , which is when the incidents, which is when the police investigate something that's happened , that's been that's happened, that's been reported as a potential hate crime, conclude that no crime has actually been committed , but has actually been committed, but record it nonetheless as a hate

incident. and they record it against your name in such a way that it can come up in an enhanced criminal record check, which prevent you from which can prevent you from getting job as teacher or a getting a job as a teacher or a carer. is this going to hang around this child's neck now for god long? he's god knows how long? but he's committed hate incident when committed a hate incident when all did was have a copy of all he did was have a copy of the koran, knocked out of his hand. i mean, we say we don't have blasphemy laws, but the have blasphemy laws, but if the police recording this in police are recording this in such that it's going to such a way that it's going to penalise you and jeopardise your career, then effectively we do have the way, the 14 have blessed by the way, the 14 year way, is year old lad, by the way, is deeply didn't deeply apologetic. he didn't process, realise the process, he didn't realise the upset would cause he's gone away. done a lot of away. he's done a lot of reading. he's written a letter to fellow classmates, to his fellow muslim classmates, apologies rising for the upset is gone . wheeled out in front of is gone. wheeled out in front of the she's apologised to the mosque. she's apologised to the mosque. she's apologised to the anything. the school the anything. even the school says there no malicious says there was no malicious intent . and by the way, you talk intent. and by the way, you talk about crimes if they're about hate crimes if they're recording was sort of place recording that was sort of place as a hate crime. i do hope they are recording the death are also recording the death threats that this little boy has got. i hope that they're

definitely recorded as hate crimes and definitely getting investigated well. and i hope investigated as well. and i hope people you say about people getting involved and all the rest of it, someone said that the education secretary should get over ten that get involved in over ten that suspension. yeah, actually, i think a pretty idea. think that's a pretty good idea. lots an opinion on lots of you have an opinion on that and i'll be giving some of those, though, in just a couple of minutes. don't go anywhere. i'll see you .

soon hello. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company right through until 7:00 this evening. emma burnell is beside me, the political consultant and alongside his toby young, the director of the free speech union. lots of you guys getting in contact when it comes to free speech about that last topic, the goings on in wakefield with those kids being suspended . i've those kids being suspended. i've got to say, by the way, if it was any of the religious text,

any of that, quite frankly, what i've got the same reaction. i said , no, you look, i've got said, no, you look, i've got a big reaction to. it so i'll be having some of that before the end of the show. so don't miss that spot for now. think i've that spot for now. i think i've got an answer to a big problem in society. basically there's queues everywhere, there's backlogs everywhere. try and get anything frankly, in anything done. quite frankly, in this age, seems to be this day and age, it seems to be an hassle. well, the an absolute hassle. well, the government. they've come government. right, they've come out a a plan on one out with a bit of a plan on one sector anyway. jobcentres is what they're going what i speak what they're going to they're going to have to do now. they're going to have a and if you do a league table and if you do a good job and get people into work, get this, everyone , you'll work, get this, everyone, you'll get work, get this, everyone, you'll ge t £250 a month work, get this, everyone, you'll get £250 a month in work, get this, everyone, you'll ge t £250 a month in vouchers. get £250 a month in vouchers. the next best performing set of staff will get onto th e £25 age. staff will get onto the £25 age. got me thinking this misdirected performance related pay . i think performance related pay. i think it's quite a good idea, actually . i would look at rolling it out right across a variety of sectors, right across the whole anywhere, really driving licences , whatever. if you licences, whatever. if you actually do well , you get a

actually do well, you get a reward. if you don't do very well, you don't do your job. guess what i talk about your wages. it's a good idea that. isn't that i still a terrible idea?i isn't that i still a terrible idea? i think would us idea? i think it would cost us a fortune because actually you'd find people are better find more people are better at theirjobs find more people are better at their jobs than we think they are. and i've worked with like are. and i've worked with i like your i've work with your optimism. i've work with performance related pay. i've worked for many years worked in sales for many years and i got bonuses and it is quite an incentivising thing. it's . difficult to always work it's. difficult to always work out what it is that you can incentivise in some jobs and there are some because there are some jobs that you know, how do you if you're a cleaner and you clean something, how do you clean something, how do you clean it? 20% better? i mean , clean it? 20% better? i mean, these are the things. so i think where you might struggle is what you do to get to people up that little bit further . how do you little bit further. how do you push them into the furtherance entities? i think there are definitely areas where performance related pay can be

really helpful . i think there really helpful. i think there are definitely a large swath of the private sector i'd like to see performing better and maybe we should be able to pay our gas bill 20% less if we don't think they're up to scratch. maybe we could look at it in all different sectors, but i do think. i'm not i'm not fundamentally against the idea. i'd like to see how it works, particularly for people who are more manual labour, more lower bands. how do you get them to get the bonuses that other people are getting ? by the way, people are getting? by the way, you wouldn't clean 20% better or more. i'd clean faster. more. i'd clean 20% faster. perhaps i would be one of the measures. but this whole notion of having a kpi , key performance of having a kpi, key performance indicators. so where you're saying to somebody is how saying to somebody this is how i will measure you, i think it's very smart indeed. well when i in another life, michelle, i co—founded full free schools and i set up a multi—academy trust and became the chief executive about multi—academy trust. and in capacity looked at performance related pay. is this a good way of increasing teacher

performance ? and what we performance? and what we discovered, having researched it, was that instead of actually improving teacher performance, teachers just expect to get the performance bonus at the end of each year. and if you don't them, the performance bonus, they're quite likely to get cross and leave . and because cross and leave. and because there is a shortage of teachers it's a seller's market and that profession we for your degree the criteria but in something like teaching start of it right together but in something like teaching it's quite hard to a fair criteria exactly how do you measure how much impact a teacher has made given that in a lot of cases, you know, it's what's happening in the home environment, how much homework they parents are insisting they do . it's to do with how do. it's to do with how naturally bright they are in the first place. kind of first place. so it's kind of there so many variables. there were so many variables. it's hard measure it's quite hard to measure performance. happens is performance. and what happens is that just expects that every teacher just expects to performance bonus at the end of each year. it's just in by them and if they then don't get it, you're then in a world pain

and i suspect something mean in this sounds like this case. it sounds like they've kind of pretty they've got a kind of pretty clear when you've clear metric. so when you've worked with gets a job, you get a but you can imagine a bonus, but you can imagine that bit blurred. it that becoming a bit blurred. it requires of kind of requires a degree of kind of ruthless which ruthless management, which i don't of the don't think is a hallmark of the pubuc don't think is a hallmark of the public sector. and i don't think is a hallmark of the public sector . and i expect what public sector. and i expect what will happen this jobcentre is will happen in this jobcentre is that of the that everybody at the end of the year will just get the performance bonus regard lists of poorly they've of how well or poorly they've done that. that's the way these things work, things tend to work, particularly have particularly when you have a labour market shortage . and you labour market shortage. and you know, the public there know, in the public sector there is generally shortage of is generally a shortage of positions a shortage of people to fill the jobs they need to fill. yeah yeah. and you say that there's a shortage of a ruthless management in the pubuc ruthless management in the public sector. well, i think that's one of the problems in the public sector. there the public sector. if there was a little more ruthless a little bit more ruthless management, was management, if there was a little more accountability, little bit more accountability, if was a little bit more. well, a little bit less, actually. if this what doing is this you know what you doing is terrible but don't worry terrible job but don't worry about it. here your kind of about it. here is your kind of golden handshake. your golden handshake. here is your pay

golden handshake. here is your pay off go. there pay off and off you go. there was little bit less of that. was a little bit less of that. you see some better you might see some better results. flipside of all of results. the flipside of all of this, by the way, is if you are working in a jobcentre, literally, your job is to get other a job. getting other people a job. so getting rewarded vouchers, rewarded for that and vouchers, so is a little bit so might say is a little bit odd. i suspect that is the other side the argument. let me side of the argument. let me know your thoughts, steve. you're are you're a mind reader. you are save emailed exactly i save you've emailed exactly as i was that saying let was just saying that saying let me this straight, michelle me get this straight, michelle you want people a bonus for you want give people a bonus for doing job he says is doing their job that he says is laughable. it you give me laughable. is it you give me your thoughts. i'll see you in a couple minutes. don't go couple of minutes. don't go anywhere, because when i come back, talk to you about back, i'll talk to you about rubbish, waste rubbish, particularly bins waste recycling all of not go recycling all of it not go anywhere. i'll see you .

in two. hello there. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm keeping you company right through until o'clock tonight alongside me emma burnell, a political consultant and so beyond the director of the free speech union we've just been talking about so—called performance related pay in the public sector. doug says , michel, if sector. doug says, michel, if you was a manager in the public sector, you'd be regarded as a bully. i'd probably be regarded as a lot of things, quite frankly, doug, but i can bet my bottom dollar i'd get better results and better outcomes than a lot of what goes on there in the first place. right now, many of have the regard that, no,

of you have the regard that, no, you shouldn't after performance related because just related play because it just pass, right. it is pass, all right. because it is literally just people doing their seem to have theirjob. it does seem to have divided you i have to say , divided you i have to say, matthew there says yes , he matthew there says yes, he thinks it would be a great idea for the nhs. richard says it was be a good idea to get rid of the benefit lifestyle, culture , i benefit lifestyle, culture, i think you mean in terms of getting people into work. but richard , the incentive that richard, the incentive that would going to jobcentre would be going to the jobcentre staff, not to the employee themselves , ken says what is themselves, ken says what is this? you want to give me a reward for doing something good? i'm not a dog. you know. well, you a right. so let's move on, shall we? let me talk to you before i head off, because your bin situation , i'm always bin situation, i'm always intrigued by this. how many bins do you actually even have ? and do you actually even have? and when it comes to going to the tip, how does it work where you live? do you just rock up and off you go? do you need a pen? might you need an appointment? you remember was you might remember it was i think started during lockdown. many of these places tips i'm

talking because talking about because of lockdown introduced lockdown covid they introduced an scheme , didn't an appointment scheme, didn't they? now in essex there's they? and now in essex there's plans to make this appointment only. and apparently almost 100% of residents have a post. it you know this whole reason killing thing the whole bin thing up hasn't i think it's a little bit out of control i mean how many bins does one single household need. yeah we've just had a weekly collections change to fortnightly collections. so now we've got these enormous bins outside our homes and in fact, the council tax is gone all of course it has in my in my borough , ealing, in west london. borough, ealing, in west london. they introduced this . you have they introduced this. you have to book if you want to take anything to the recycling centre dunng anything to the recycling centre during the lockdowns because lots of people were taking advantage of the lockdown to have clear outs and take stuff to and i thought, to the dump. and i thought, well, lift when the well, the lift it when the lockdown they haven't lockdown ends, but they haven't it. think that that my it. and i think that that my impression is that fly—tipped thing increased in my local

thing has increased in my local area and i suspect the two are connected. if you make it more difficult for people to go to the dump if they have to make an appointment, to keep appointment, if i have to keep that appointment and so forth, then they're going to more then they're going to be more likely dump at the end likely to just dump at the end of street outside their of the street or outside their homes. i think this a mad homes. so i think this is a mad thing essex council to be thing for essex council to be thinking about doing and i'm not surprised 100% of the surprised that 100% of the residents opposed it. residents are opposed to it. i can't stand fly—tipped though can't stand fly—tipped as though i do think you are i think you do you think you are to up a dirty old mattress and deposit it at the end of someone's god? say, who do you think are anyway ? emily. so think you are anyway? emily. so my local dates introduce appointments during lockdown and they've actually i'll introduce them now. but it was part like a resource management thing. they just had like calls backing up for people queuing get in local councils , just have less money councils, just have less money than they used to and less resource and i think that one of the balance has to be found here

is that if people are queuing because every salt's gone on a sunday afternoon , then they're sunday afternoon, then they're all is going to be a problem with fly—tipping because half of that queue will go. i'm not doing this. i'm going to go and dump it in in someone's garden, as you say. so i think there's a balance be found between balance to be found between maybe having some open spaces, times that people can go, but an awareness that you may end up in awareness that you may end up in a because those will a big queue because those will be popular times and be the popular times and appointments where you can just go and out. i do think go in and out. i do think there's elements go in and out. i do think there's there. elements go in and out. i do think there's there. don'tlements go in and out. i do think there's there. don't knowds with tip there. i don't know whether or not all tips have them. there's like a side component can offer component where you can offer rummage things that people component where you can offer rumnpute things that people component where you can offer rumnput their|ings that people component where you can offer rumnput their fonops at people have put their fonops fascinating. my trip, my crazy. she me off to the she would send me off to the dump a bunch my old dump with a bunch of my old stuff. wanted me to get rid stuff. she wanted me to get rid of i'd come back with even of and i'd come back with even more stuff. go to the dump. i love it. lots of people are getting touch, by the way, getting in touch, by the way, about story we touched about that story that we touched on earlier, is the school on earlier, which is the school in the four lads that have in feel the four lads that have been for damaging been suspended for damaging a koran. many people saying koran. many people are saying it's school that are handling it's a school that are handling

this to toby this wrong. you used to be toby when up, as we just when you set up, as we just discussed, free discussed, a chain of free schools. if something like this has happened under your watch with of schools, how with one of your schools, how would you? we've dealt it. would you? we've dealt with it. how respond? how should a school respond? well, it's difficult and well, i think it's difficult and i with the head i sympathise with the head teacher . i i sympathise with the head teacher. i suspect i sympathise with the head teacher . i suspect that the teacher. i suspect that the reason he's suspended these four boysis reason he's suspended these four boys is not because he thinks they've done something so bad. it warrants that kind of penalty. i expect it's for their own protection. they live in a community in a part of the world where there are going to be children in the who are going to take it upon themselves to punish these children for disrespecting their religion , disrespecting their religion, their holy book. so i suspect you know, that's probably why he's done it. and you know, so i think it's tough to criticise and without knowing all the facts . and what about teachers facts. and what about teachers unions in these kind of situations ? because the unions, situations? because the unions, you know, they're very vocal these days, aren't they're very front on things. but i know front foot on things. but i know when was, for example, when it was, for example, bartlett where were bartlett teach, where were the unions was nowhere

unions there? there was nowhere to where are the in to be seen. where are the in these of situations ? do these kind of situations? do they have a role in this or not? well i think they do have a role and. know, they should be and. you know, they should be taking a leadership role in situations this. but you situations like this. but as you say they should be in say, i mean, they should be in the of the batley grammar the case of the batley grammar school you know, he school teacher, you know, he was, a member of a was, i think, a member of a teaching union. they were nowhere. they be nowhere. i mean, they should be protecting members from, protecting their members from, you murderous mobs who are you know, murderous mobs who are threatening to kill them instead of remaining completely of just remaining completely silent about it and a kind of cowardly way. yeah, indeed. i mean, this has really got you guys talking, carol, says michelle you need to be careful what you say. you'll be in danger of a back lash. i've got to say there, carol, i'm really sorry, but i do think people need to speak out when you've got 14 year old autistic children receiving death threats. i'm sorry, but i mean, thatis threats. i'm sorry, but i mean, that is just not on it's not acceptable. people have to speak out against this. there is nobody in this country that has a right not to be offended. i certainly don't condone people

going out of their way to try and offend people and all the rest completely respect rest of it. i completely respect the others, but we the religions of others, but we live society where we're live in a society where we're supposed i'm supposed to co—exist. and i'm sorry , turning a blind eye to sorry, turning a blind eye to kids, being threatened , not kids, being threatened, not going happen my watch . going to happen on my watch. many of are getting in touch many of you are getting in touch as well, saying you think as well, saying that you think the secretary of state for education should intervene and overrule suspensions. should overrule the suspensions. should she again, i like toby. she? i mean, again, i like toby. i don't know the details . i i don't know the details. i think there may be a problem if this is on their permanent record, if they've been suspended, as you suggest, perhaps for their own safety, that would worry me , because i that would worry me, because i don't think that's something that's been done in order to protect them, should also then harm later down line . a harm them later down the line. a real issue. look, michel, we live in a pluralistic society . live in a pluralistic society. we should have the absolute right to disagree, to say things that each other disagree with . that each other disagree with. we should respect people's religion , their right to hold religion, their right to hold their own religion . but that their own religion. but that religion does not have the right to encroach on my lifestyle or

yours. and that's where that that's the line has to be drawn. and ultimately, that's how you live in liberal society. you live in a liberal society. you respect rights of you respect the rights of you respect the rights of you respect other people , but you respect other people, but you ultimately do have the right to impinge impose your values upon them . yeah. and philip says, them. yeah. and philip says, michel, you just don't understand that the head teacher is afraid . the unions are is afraid. the unions are afraid. everybody is afraid. well, i'm not afraid to speak up in defence of 14 year old autistic children. i don't think anyone should and it should be and quite frankly, keir starmer wandering around giving us all his five point plan and all the rest he should be rest of it, he should be condemning councillors condemning labour councillors that incite this that are trying to incite this violence incite division. it is wrong and it needs to be pushed back against lots of as well getting torched about performance related pay under the phil's bait and switch then michel if you say about being a bossin michel if you say about being a boss in the public sector, you could be the boss. but all of your workers would resign. that's bit emma thank that's a bit harsh. emma thank you for your company. toby thank for guys very much.

for yours. you guys very much. thank you for you. also have a wonderful evening and i'll see you tomorrow. hi there. it's aidan mcgivern here from the met office kyra. weather will office kyra. and weather will continue for many of us over the next 24 hours. showers will ease later, leading to a touch of frost in some places. but for most it stays cloudy because this area of high pressure, which dominant across the which is dominant across the u.k. the moment, is u.k. at the moment, is continuing feed of continuing to bring a feed of cloud and some showers in from the sea . so the most the north sea. so the most frequent showers into the east and across central areas. but a few making their way few of them making their way into in southwest. into wales in the southwest. however, earlier showers and however, the earlier showers and the in kent do the longer of rain in kent do tend clearer skies tend to move away. clearer skies moving in here overnight with the frost and western scotland lengthy, clear spells. so frost here as well. but where we keep the cloud 3 to 5 celsius on the thermometer as we off wednesday and we've still got further showers to come, they're going to continue to feed into northern and central england , northern and central england, south—east of south—east scotland, parts of wales, one or two into the southwest england as well. southwest of england as well. but by the afternoon, but actually, by the afternoon, many of the showers will ease.

there'll a better chance of there'll be a better chance of some breaks in the cloud developing some brighter spells, especially south, especially towards the south, the and more especially for the west and more especially for western scotland. 7 to 10 celsius, not from average for this time of year, but it'll feel more like three or four on that north sea coast given the breeze . that breezes will breeze. that breezes will continue to bring showers continue to bring some showers into the north and east of scotland, northern and eastern england, into wales england, one or two into wales on wednesday nights. but that's the best chance of clear spells is across southern counties of england, south wales, northern and western scotland. then it's here where we'll see a frost as we start off thursday. otherwise, to celsius, very otherwise, 3 to 5 celsius, very similar compared with similar picture compared with the last few days. lot of the last few days. a lot of cloud feeding in and a few showers. however, thursday, i'm optimist does look like a brighter day for many, especially in the south. and later on for scotland as well. the cloud breaking up nicely. and by friday, many places will be looking sunnier, although they'll still be areas of cloud floating about saturday. much

colder weather sweeps into the far .

nonh good evening . today, the show good evening. today, the show has moved on to balfour past. there are still some very big legal questions about rishi sunak's agreement. will the dupe agree to a deal. that's sunak's agreement. will the dupe agree to a deal . that's the sunak's agreement. will the dupe agree to a deal. that's the big debate we're going to have today . will also look at a court of .will also look at a court of appeal judgement today surrounding brexit. were russian men though very interesting . men though very interesting. we'd ask why is it so difficult to deport foreign criminals and those who filed their asylum claims? tiffany former claims? and tiffany dell, former racing driver and of course , a racing driver and of course, a one time top gear presenter joins me on talking points. but before all of that, let's get the news with polly middlehurst