good morning and welcome to the complete tony show live in westminster. thank you for joining me this morning. i've got lots the show today as is ever the case. i'm going to be speaking to george eustice, who was under was environment secretary under

bods was environment secretary under boris when ask boris johnson when to ask him about government's net zero about the government's net zero policies how they're policies and how they're just going to make the poor and defeat object entirely. i'm defeat the object entirely. i'm also going to be speaking to labour charles faulkner labour peer charles faulkner about keir starmer's council tax and other matters. and i'm delighted to be joined in the studio by former foreign secretary rifkind , secretary sir malcolm rifkind, who's going to be discussing russia, and of course, the russia, china and of course, the story weekend . donald story of the weekend. donald trump . well, let's go through trump. well, let's go through the stories of weekend . i'm the stories of the weekend. i'm going to go through the newspapers now. newspapers with you now. have a look at the front page of the sun telegraph. first staff can sue their boss, if customers offend them. this is about a private member's that's been supped private member's that's been slipped through parliament. i think on friday. well, no one was looking at the telegraph a very about the sunday times new nightmare for as strikes returned yet again more strikes in the nhs. the observer. care homes crisis children's sent hundreds of miles away. this is about some children in care being sent up to 300 miles from where they are from sunday

mirror . have where they are from sunday mirror. have a laugh at my funeral this is apparently paul o'grady's final words to his best friend the sunday express with rishi has six months to sort votes crisis. it's on his fine point pledge plan and the mail on sunday goes with vegan meal plans to sabotage the grand national . meal plans to sabotage the grand national. it's about eco warriors trying to get on the turf for that moment this moment up at aintree. later on this month the sun on sunday married england ace gags secret lover not named but pictured in silhouette so that will keep us guessing all day and the sun people tories blow 8 million on king charles which i believe we're going to be discussing just a moment. delighted to be joined now by nigel nelson, whose gb news is senior political commentator , newly political commentator, newly coined newly minted . i mean, coined newly minted. i mean, before that, nigel, you've spent 36 years covering politics, particularly for the people in the sunday mirror. so on the left side of things. and so it's

interesting that you've this interview sir keir starmer interview that sir keir starmer done with the sunday times. what's he . well, the most part what's he. well, the most part about it, he's trying to address the transgender issue which has been ripping the labour party apart. yes so he declares that . apart. yes so he declares that. 99.9% of women don't have penises. right. the question which caught him out before or not quite sure that actually shows he is at the moment. no, it's not quite equivocal is unequivocal , is it it's not quite equivocal is unequivocal, is it 99.9.7 it's not quite equivocal is unequivocal , is it 99.9.7 why unequivocal, is it 99.9.7 why this such a sticking point with him .7 why can't he just say that him.7 why can't he just say that women don't him? why can't he just say that women don't have penises? i don't understand it. because he also believes in trans rights. so this is where he's got himself in a bit of a pickle. i think the point he makes about it, which is which is , is that it, which is which is, is that the debates become really toxic. and i think this is a to a lot of issues now that we've got to a stage where debate becomes somehow paralysed you're either

on one side or the other and don't brook anything in between. and so a bit of that is to do with social media. i think there is still the divisions existing over brexit, which is actually that along. but it is a fair point. what are you saying is, look, we ought actually be a bit more broad minded about the whole thing . there are different whole thing. there are different points of view , but both sides points of view, but both sides we ought to come a bit closer together . but we ought to come a bit closer together. but he's quite weathervane ish on this, isn't he? i mean, we had last week him saying that he wanted to put a pause on kind of the gender recognition act stuff in the scottish now, labour scottish stuff. now, labour coming out with tweet saying , coming out with tweet saying, you know, kind banging the you know, kind of banging the drum approach trans drum for their approach trans stance. a with him stance. this is a with him because he's a bit to pin down. he kind of for everything and nothing . you've been covering nothing. you've been covering the political scene for all these decades. nigel how would you compare him to, say, blair? and indeed, i know when he first started out in your career, you were covering neil kinnock a lot. absolutely yeah. and so

there is a huge difference . the there is a huge difference. the what you had with neil kinnock was a really charismatic leader in fair dos to keir starmer. he's not that tony blair an underlying political philosophy which helped him win three elections. we don't see that with keir starmer and he hasn't got the extraordinary stardust of jeremy cole that now jeremy corbyn got that. i never understood. he very much had . i understood. he very much had. i think he might have lost his sparkle . and he may, he may now sparkle. and he may, he may now . but at time he was . but at the time he was actually bit like a actually treated a bit like a rock star wherever you actually went with him. what you've got with keir starmer is someone who's he's very with keir starmer is someone who'scompany. he's very with keir starmer is someone who'scompany. he's he's very with keir starmer is someone who'scompany. he's competent, good company. he's competent, awfully cautious. so you put him up against rishi sunak you're always choosing between two bank managers rather than some kind of political messiah . but maybe of political messiah. but maybe those qualities are the bad thing in a prime minister. i was discussing this with stephen and angela earlier on breakfast. is it a problem that people look at

starmer think, well, starmer to think, well, actually, the top% actually, you're in the top% that angela rayner keeps on on about. privileged about. you're a very privileged you arrangements for you had special arrangements for your pension while , you your pension while, you pretended to be a man of the people where just a kind of north london metropolitan elitist. i think that when it comes to a prime minister can be a rich prime minister and. you can be a poor one. that's the great thing about our system that sunak that somebody like rishi sunak is . i took i don't is a billionaire. i took i don't blame him for being that and i don't think it disqualifies him from the job. it's something david cameron said why should i be disadvantaged in career? because of my background . so because of my background. so i think the same thing applies to keir starmer. can be keir starmer. you can still be a man the people , even though man of the people, even though you've man , you've been a successful man, the let's find out the people. now let's find out if of people, not if you're a of the people, not because you're. well, the telegraph is identified a number of different political tribes. hopefully we've got the graphic for this and basically are now being kind of put in different kind categories. are you up kind of categories. are you up for left activist? are you a rural righty ? the yougov polling

rural righty? the yougov polling on this is really interesting because it's basically revealing that quite a lot of your traditional conservative voters are going where they should be going to reform right . which is going to reform right. which is interesting . so this is actually interesting. so this is actually actually something something done by the left wing think tank labour together . and as you said labour together. and as you said it identified all these different groups and the particular one is the rural right , as they call them. now, right, as they call them. now, these are people who are dyed in these are people who are dyed in the wool tory voters. now don't feel quite so confident the tories. and so reform would be the next the beneficiary . of the next the beneficiary. of course the final beneficiary would be labour. yes. all that will happen . reform is unlikely will happen. reform is unlikely to be able to get in these seats in the same way that ukip didn't . so. so what. what would happen is you'd split tory vote, especially in places , red wall especially in places, red wall or whatever , and labour would or whatever, and labour would come through the middle . the come through the middle. the trouble for reform is with the greatest respect to richard tice, he isn't nigel farage of this parish and it's i think if

nigel said he wanted to go across and lead that party again, then the conservatives would be much more worried . but would be much more worried. but they worried anyway . they should be worried anyway. if reform are creeping up to what eight or yeah, what is it eight or 9. yeah, they're going in direction and they're going in direction and the need to be worried. the tories need to be worried. but you're right about somebody like mean, he like nigel farage. i mean, he he, he brought about . i he, he brought brexit about. i mean it was, it was the major, if you like, of this century politically . so no, you haven't politically. so no, you haven't got a nigel farage, but even he didn't get an mpc elected to parliament. now speaking of from farage, that then we can segway nicely into the trump story. i do love the fact that the mail on sunday have mocked up what trump's mugshot might look . it's trump's mugshot might look. it's good, isn't it? the donald is absolutely delighted with this coverage , isn't he? he loves it. coverage, isn't he? he loves it. i mean, in typical donald trump fashion, his supporters are saying , oh, this fashion, his supporters are saying, oh, this is going to be the most famous mugshot not in world history , which i presume world history, which i presume will beat even hugh grant's mugshot, which actually mugshot, which was actually quite popular really time

quite popular really at the time . we have to wait to tuesday to see how all this plays out . see how all this plays out. we're not going to see donald trump in handcuffs when he goes court. there you go . what it has court. there you go. what it has done, it obviously has his campaign a huge his rhetoric, which was actually quite muted before the start and is now geanng before the start and is now gearing but is getting more intense even bit more on sort of the violent side . so i think the violent side. so i think that donald trump can't be upset about the fact that this is happening . he probably won't go happening. he probably won't go to jail, but even if he did, he could actually serve as president for 4 million more quid in the coffers. since whole news story we're going to news story broke. we're going to be speaking to lanny davis, who is later is michael lawyer a little later in show to bring the viewers in the show to bring the viewers up and the listeners up to date and the listeners with story. just with the trump story. just a quick one the picture of the quick one on the picture of the weekend, page three at the mail on it's sewell as on sunday. it's rufus sewell as prince andrew. it's uncanny prince andrew. it's an uncanny likeness . it's brilliant. i mean likeness. it's brilliant. i mean , in in victoria, rufus who looked like rufus sewell. yes

but no, you wouldn't recognise him , that he's slightly sort of him, that he's slightly sort of jowly . he's got a bit of a jowly. he's got a bit of a paunch , but he looks exactly paunch, but he looks exactly like prince andrew . and what like prince andrew. and what netflix are recreating is that famous war with the jeffrey epstein through central park. walk of shame. the walk of shame and rufus sewell. absolutely looks like the person who's played very quick last a final war story . played very quick last a final war story. king charles should the tories be blowing 8 million on king charles pictures? nigel will probably not. but i mean what was interesting this story is we always pictures of is we always have pictures of the various the monarch up in various council offices, government offices . no one's ever thought offices. no one's ever thought about who pays for. yes, well, we do. at apparently they cost 8 billion, probably a little bit too much expense at a time. well, they've finances. thank you much indeed forjoining me this morning nigel nelson. you can catch him on other gb news programming now. catherine forster news political reporter is in albans. land of my father where i went to school . where where i went to school. where the top of the city ices ice cream company may be well known

to viewers and indeed people's panellists. now what do the people's panel make of today's news? they know, i'm sure, that we've got george coming up. i'm going to be asking about net going to be asking him about net zero. the panel think zero. what does the panel think about panel about that? what does the panel think trump? what does the think about trump? what does the panel about starmer? panel think about starmer? catherine think catherine does the panel think about to see about everything? nice to see you morning . and you, you this morning. and you, camilla yes. good morning and welcome to st oliver's, which, as you said , you know very well as you said, you know very well indeed. as you said, you know very well indeed . we're here in the beach indeed. we're here in the beach house with alex. alex thank you very much for hosting us on the people's panel this morning. good morning . welcome to the good morning. welcome to the beach house of us. open beach house from all of us. open group. we run 40 businesses around uk . thank you so much around the uk. thank you so much for joining us on the people's panel. let's go meet the panel. let's go and meet the rest of them. good morning, steve. morning and good steve. good morning and good morning, andy. thank you for joining morning right. so obviously lots of changes came in yesterday for business, national living wage and the energy support schemes, etc. alex, tell us the challenges

that you're facing and what more support you would like to see businesses given by the government. yeah, thank you very much. we bounced back really well since covid and we really pleased with all our sales. there have been a lot of challenges with energy pricing and some of the food input price that they've come in in recent times. but what was fundamentally cause is that biggest issue is the level of taxation . and in our industry it taxation. and in our industry it like the world has moved by the taxation system hasn't and we need a bit more i wouldn't say supporter on that but we need a fairer system to help the hospitality thrive . what would hospitality thrive. what would you like to ask george ? just you like to ask george? just like to ask what the government strategy is to help the hospitality thrive and maintain. is there for as a fall from the uk in the world. thank you . lots uk in the world. thank you. lots of challenges for businesses up and down the country, especially as you say , with physical as you say, with physical

premises . this and steve we premises. this and steve we obviously third day was the government's green day lots of policies announced about how we getting to net zero. you have just bought a hybrid vehicle you've got some concerns , you've got some concerns, haven't you? tell us about those . well, yes, i have. and the main one is that the range when the car is charged is pathetically low. it's about 20 miles, which is just isn't enough. what means is that we up using the petrol power rather than the electricity power. and you know , if the whole country's you know, if the whole country's going to be doing this before by 2030 or in when hit, when we hit this target then it's to be a big problem. we don't have the infrastructure for charging in the up down the country we repair the potholes. i the up down the country we repairthe potholes. i don't see repair the potholes. i don't see how we're going to get the charging spots up in place in time. you've also got a question for george eustice and, a question about heat pumps as well. you? that's

well. have you? yes, that's right. parties are right. political parties are always accusing each other of . always accusing each other of. uncosted plans . always accusing each other of. uncosted plans. i think that net zero is on costed for uk public. how much is it going to cost us to have a heat pump to make the changes that we're going to be compelled to make in order to reach the net? zero utopia heat pumps very, very expensive at the aren't they. and andy , you the aren't they. and andy, you are a mortgage broker. you've previously always been a conserve active voter. but you're saying the moment that you're saying the moment that you wouldn't vote for rishi sunak. tell us why i blame rishi sunak. tell us why i blame rishi sunak for its demise and i think that's part of the reason why the conservatives in the mess they're in at the moment, very succinctly put . but also you succinctly put. but also you were talking more broadly that you feel conserve saves aren't terribly conservative. tell us more about that. yeah, i think they've completely lost their core . they're not any core direction. they're not any more the party of taxation and not recognised running an

efficient economy and what we always used to do and what would you like to hear from some malcolm rifkind i would like to hear his ideas on, you know, how can back our core values? can we get back our core values? how conservatives start how can the conservatives start doing what we want to do ? so doing what we want to do? so there you go, camilla. lots of questions for your guests. i look forward to hearing what they have to say. back to you in they have to say. back to you in the studio thanks very much for that, indeed, catherine. and please do apply to the people's panel next week. gbnews.uk forward slash panel is the address we're inside. dobyns actually, there's a piece the observer today saying that stevenage is going to be dictating the next general action. i always say this mondeo man was one them last time man was one of them last time around , but think might be around, but i think it might be st person and that's why st orban's person and that's why we're george eustice we're there now. george eustice joins former environment joins me now, former environment secretary and tory mp for camborne and redruth. lovely to see you this morning, jewel. thank you very much for joining on gloomy sunday. on this rather gloomy sunday. let's straight into sewage let's get straight into sewage and i'm asking about that and i'm asking you about that because i'll read it particularly the telegraph ,

particularly in the telegraph, absolutely that some absolutely furious that some these figures we learn that 1.7 5000000 hours of 2022 was spent with water companies pouring raw sewage into our rivers. you were . secretary did this happen on your watch? how has this happened? isn't this illegal? this has happened for over 100 years. and it's a legacy really of the victorian infrastructure that we've got on sewage and. actually, i was probably the first secretary state to really start to address this when i became secretary in 2020. i actually introduced a new spending review plan for of what they then required of companies to start investing in this. they will take time. but last july that culminated in a to reduce the use of storm overflows significantly , cutting them by significantly, cutting them by about 25% over the next 2 to 3 years and actually significantly reducing the harm altogether by 2050. so all of what or indeed the environment agency to be

found wanting has been a lot of particularly of the when it comes to say not dredging rivers and contributing to flooding from the punters point of view, from the punters point of view, from listeners and viewers of this show, they'll be looking at this show, they'll be looking at this and going, this is just an absolute environmental scandal . absolute environmental scandal. well, there's two separate things have been going on. the first on storm overflows, first is on storm overflows, which you get a huge which is when you get a huge flood and to prevent the system being overwhelmed and sewage coming up through toilets into people's homes, which is what would happen . they have would happen. they have to have these emergency overflows which use now that's usually very dilute it. in fact, often it's just street , it's water that's just street, it's water that's come off the streets rather than the foul water system. that's one thing that's always been part illegal and part of that permits. but there's a about whether the eia will those permit conditions properly and that's being investigated now and there's a separate problem which is some sewerage companies were releasing treated sewage but slightly prematurely and thatis but slightly prematurely and that is another issue we don't know whether that's because the

water companies hadn't realised that and hadn't detected it but it has now been detected and that's also subject to an investigation in some cases. so is it just that we have to put up with the fact sewage in some form or other is always going to be released into our rivers ? be released into our rivers? it's always been thus and therefore it always will be. this the use of these storm overflows, the headline overflows, although the headline figures st figures are nice this week st high four high it's been reducing for four years. dramatically last year years. it dramatically last year partly due to drier weather. it has to be said. but we have a plan reduce the harm from plan to reduce the harm from these by 25% by 2025 and then beyond that £56 billion of investment that's already started be spent is going to effectively reduce the harm from these storm overflows by 2050. i think you're always going to need some of them to eliminate them altogether . you need to them altogether. you need to spend about £600 billion on our sewage infrastructure . that's sewage infrastructure. that's actually disproportionate to the problem . and you've spent £600 problem. and you've spent £600 billion on that. you would see

water bills, probably treble , water bills, probably treble, and you actually wouldn't see a corresponding to be saying this isn't too much of a problem and even campaigners like fergal even got campaigners like fergal sharkey term that got people sharkey term that has got people writing into their droves thinking really is thinking that it really is a massive problem. well it's a new problem so it's been problem problem so it's been a problem problem so it's been a problem problem it's been a problem even if it's been a problem even if it's been a problem it's problem down the decades. it's something that we've been addressing sewage addressing. sewage infrastructure , these are long infrastructure, these are long term challenges. and yes, i know that people want an instant solution we've given them an instant solution . the case of instant solution. the case of there was a plan last july , £56 there was a plan last july, £56 billion to be spent on it. but will take three years to get a 25% reduction in probably ten years to get it down further. people just have to accept that it takes a bit of time then it's not a new problem. okay. should people rivers. yes people swim in our rivers. yes they do. and they did. yes. yes swimming with sewage . no, swimming with sewage. no, they're not. so these are tend to releases that happen at the point at which you get severe storm overflows . we do have ways storm overflows. we do have ways of you know, we have bathing water quality beaches that are

designated as such. and we started to designate bathing water quality in rivers as well. and there has been an improvement in in water quality in rivers in recent decades. and the government week has announced plans on net zero announced its plans on net zero and that they're going to continue target. i continue with this target. but i think a great deal of think there's a great deal of concern among the gb audience that it's actually going to cost them least if them more money, not least if they have to start replacing diesel and petrol very diesel and petrol cars for very costly electric . so if they're costly electric. so if they're going have start going to have to start getting a heat pump, prices for those start believe . start at £8,000, i believe. what's your view on all this? i mean environmental fit mean, environmental policy fit for purpose, if it makes the poor poorer , i think even you poor poorer, i think even if you and there are people who are sceptical about the need and wisdom of going for net zero by 2050, i happen to support it. but even for those don't there's an energy security issue here as well. we probably passed peak oil about a decade ago and that means that resources of oil and gas are to be diminishing this new oil field apparently this

oil field that's being built is it rosfeld rosamund , which is it rosfeld rosamund, which is going to apparently blow the complete carbon reduction budget for the government . well, what i for the government. well, what i would say is there's a role definitely gas in the transition because it central to get what we call blue hydrogen and hydrogen going to be hydrogen is going to be an import fuel use for import fuel to use for particularly lorries heavy goods, vehicles and some other purposes as well . but, you know, purposes as well. but, you know, oil is a diminishing. it's increasingly going to be in the hands we can't , hands of regimes that we can't, as we've seen the last year. as we've seen in the last year. and therefore, you've got to , as and therefore, you've got to, as a point energy security, have a point of energy security, have a point of energy security, have a strategy to reduce your reliance on fossil fuels . we've reliance on fossil fuels. we've put a pause on their plans to try and cut out fossil fuels. they've said look, this is just not practicable because of the war in ukraine, because of surging energy prices in the uk , people are seeing their energy bills go up. now they're to be potentially having to pay more their future to have to their cars in future to have to ditch with scrappage ditch cars with scrappage schemes don't give them schemes don't seem to give them the deserve . 5

the money that they deserve. 5 minutes ago, we're told to drive diesels. the we're diesels. the next we're to abandon you understand abandon them. you can understand the uk the frustration of the uk taxpayer . this stealth tax taxpayer. this stealth tax is put into energy bills because of greed levies that they have no control and actually our emissions are 1% of the world's carbon emissions. so we're all doing the right thing. what difference if and difference it make if china and russia keep on belching out emissions like billions ? emissions like billions? absolutely. and that's right. it's a global endeavour. and that's why the cop event that we have, although people will criticise that is absolutely necessary to get the rest of the world to act as well . but my world to act as well. but my view on this is when it comes to vehicles , it would be new sale vehicles, it would be new sale vehicles, it would be new sale vehicles only. so they'll still be a second hand for market petrol and diesel cars for some years . come petrol and diesel cars for some years. come and cars sell if you've got an electric car. i haven't know because for me at the moment it doesn't work because i sometimes to make a very long journey to call and it just doesn't work for many people. and that's people. exactly. and that's why it's pushing it's the government pushing it then. can then. well that's why you can still get petrol and diesel vehicles at moment . the

vehicles at the moment. the reason work is the reason it doesn't work is the technology there to technology is not quite there to deal range and the deal with the range and the infrastructure for charging until 2030. that's seven years away. exactly. and a lot can happen seven years. look at happen in seven years. look at what's last what's happened in the last seven years. it infancy seven years. it was infancy before you have had any before you would have had any electric vehicles. now a significant number of europeans aren't so why aren't phasing out this. so why aren't phasing out this. so why are it? the are we doing it? well, the government judges it and government still judges it and they've obviously looked at this that keep that it's right to keep that target place and it would be target in place and it would be premature to make a change to that at moment . premature to make a change to that at moment. i premature to make a change to that at moment . i if that at the moment. i think if you infrastructure in you get that infrastructure in place and send a clear place and you send a clear consistent punishing pool, people know it's not because most poor people actually would buy a second hand car and there are no second—hand electric available right now. but there are second—hand there are second on diesel and petrol cars and will continue for be many will continue to for be many years come. only years to come. you're only talking sales cars talking about new sales of cars that would out by that would be phased out by 2030. about pumps 2030. what about heat pumps do you people afford you think poor people can afford ? their boiler and spend ? change their boiler and spend eight grand minimum one. now eight grand minimum on one. now on argued a change and on this i've argued a change and will be to the will be seeking to amend the energy when it comes back to the

house commons because we've house of commons because we've got of great gas got a lot of great gas properties or properties that use typically kerosene heating oil and you actually make an adaptation to those existing boilers so that they will run on called hydro treated vegetable oil, which is your private member's bill that's right. yeah. this is a good idea. this is a practical solution. so people heat homes with people who could heat homes with vegetable should vegetable oil should vat reductions. for that for reductions. exactly for that for a small cost of couple of hundred pounds, they can make an adaptation existing adaptation to their existing boiler then we can get boiler and then we can get nearly reduction carbon nearly a 90% reduction in carbon very quickly . i'm the very quickly. i'm hoping the government will take up because my you shouldn't set of my view is you shouldn't set of heat because an heat pumps. yes. because an source heat pump will be right for properties , but not for for some properties, but not for many. tend to need a lot many. they tend to need a lot of insulation you've got old insulation and if you've got old insulation and if you've got old insulation , less insulation means, less ventilation, that means mould and so on. so it's not the right technology for some of these . so technology for some of these. so the energy secretary, grant shapps, says he's going to get a heat is he is he to heat pump. is he is he wrong to do it's a stupid idea do that? it's a stupid idea because for because they're not fit for purpose. right purpose. no, it'll be right for some and source

some homes and ground source pumps really on pumps could work. really on what's called district level heating, where you take a whole estate and move it on to a ground source heat pump. there's a role for air source heat pumps with individual properties. with some individual properties. but think for those but i actually think for those so—called gas properties so—called gas grid properties that currently use kerosene predominantly , we actually predominantly, we actually should enable them at very low cost to adopt to a renewable heating fuel that would actually reduce carbon far faster than trying to require them to have an air source. heat pump can talk to you about the cptpp which is the new trade deal that's been signed in the south pacific. quite about pacific. you were quite about liz truss on trade deals . you liz truss on trade deals. you regret that she's done regret that now that she's done quite well, hasn't she followed up kemi badenoch? up by kemi badenoch? well, i'm coming . badenoch has done coming. badenoch has done reasonably . what do you credit reasonably. what do you credit truss with this. because truss with this. well because all was although cptpp all she did was although cptpp was to be honest send the letter saying she would like to join there oh there weren't really any. oh do you think a very you not think she was a very good i was critical of good trade? i was critical of was done on the australia trade deal and reason i was critical is i wanted the government to

learn the lessons and the lesson is that in a trade agreement, any agreement, yeah. the any trade agreement, yeah. the negotiation has negotiation of this deal has been going for two years been going on for two years though, it. and she trade though, hasn't it. and she trade secretary and was foreign secretary and she was foreign secretary and she was prime minister. her minister. well i don't give her any all. the big any credit at all. the big decisions this was start to decisions on this was start to be only just about made in around july when anne—marie lawrence was there and liz truss actually had been out of the role about years. you role for about six years. you were worried about the australian but this australian deal, but what this also that meats also mean that cheap meats get imported, the uk and flood the british market? no, because you've limits this. so my you've got limits this. so my criticism of the australia deal that it was very one sided it gave full liberalisation when we should what's called should have had what's called an endunng should have had what's called an enduring tr. and a key enduring tr. q and that's a key was a fixed of product that you allow what they've done on the cptpp is secured a much more balanced reciprocal exchange of opportunities with fixed volumes. i trust that. or do you just not really like i supported liz truss on lots of things and with i disagreed with the approach she took on the australia trade deal . i've been australia trade deal. i've been very about that . i think

very honest about that. i think sometimes in ideology views about why did it resign over it at the time that if you were that opposed to because i secured a termination clause in the australia trade deal which means any government future can terminate the agreement with six months notice in writing. that was important that very important safeguard, given the lack and managed lack others. and i also managed to secure staging over 15 years, which wasn't ideal. i would have held out for way more. but you think this is a decent deal. just case. i think this is a reason. this is a balanced reciprocal of reciprocal exchange of opportunities with the kind of safeguards. and that's a trade deal should shouldn't be deal should be it shouldn't be some approach some ideal logical approach that says for says we want to liberalise for the sake of it. it is a balanced exchange other countries the sake of it. it is a balanced exch are e other countries the sake of it. it is a balanced exch are also other countries the sake of it. it is a balanced exch are also looking:ountries the sake of it. it is a balanced exch are also looking after'ies that are also looking after their eustice, their interests. george eustice, thank joining this thank you for joining me this morning. see you. lots morning. lovely to see you. lots more on. today's show, more to come on. today's show, including i'm to be including i'm going to be speaking labour lord charlie speaking to labour lord charlie faulkner starmer and faulkner about keir starmer and other matters. i'm also going to faulkner about keir starmer and otrspeaking's. i'm also going to faulkner about keir starmer and otrspeaking toi'm also going to faulkner about keir starmer and otr speaking to former) going to faulkner about keir starmer and otr speaking to former secretary. be speaking to former secretary. so rifkind and the so malcolm rifkind and the lawyer michael come in. the lawyer of michael come in. the man at the heart of the donald trump indictment is

trump indictment scandal is going to be joining a little going to be joining me a little later the show. very later on in the show. see very shortly, news shortly, here's the news headunes

good morning. it's 10:01. good morning. it's10:01. i'm tatiana sanchez. this is the latest from the gb news region, the port of dover has run extra ferry services overnight to try and clear back fog, which has seen passengers delayed for up to 14 hours. the port declared a

critical incident yesterday as traffic built up for the easter getaway with coaches at the cruise terminal facing the longest waits . ferry services longest waits. ferry services have cited bad weather and hold ups at french border control with the port saying additional coach bookings had impacted operations . travel expert simon operations. travel expert simon calder told us it's been miserable overnight for thousands of people . after thousands of people. after brexit we asked for tougher checks so when you turn up at dover previously you just sort of waved the passport out of the window and that would be fine . window and that would be fine. now we asked to be treated as third country nationals, so an officer is supposed to go through the passport checking or your stamps. they then need to stamp the passport themselves and that takes much , much longer and that takes much, much longer than it did previously . multiply than it did previously. multiply that by 50 or 60 people on border coach and you get delays . the home secretary is to introduce new measures to tackle child sexual abuse. writing in

the mail on sunday suella braverman has announced those working with children will have a legal duty to report signs or suspicions of sexual abuse. it follows an independ ent inquiry last year, which described sexual abuse of children as an epidemic . three british men are epidemic. three british men are being held in taliban custody in afghan taftan. they include freelance danger, tourist miles routledge, who had to be rescued from kabul by british forces less than two years ago. a humanitarian network that is assisting two of the men says it believes they're in good health and are being treated well. anthony joshua has won his heavyweight fight against germaine franklin , the british germaine franklin, the british boxing champion , in a somewhat boxing champion, in a somewhat laboured display at the o2 arena in london last night, securing a unanimous points victory in 12 rounds. it'sjoshua's unanimous points victory in 12 rounds. it's joshua's first time back in the ring since losing to oleksandr usyk last august , oleksandr usyk last august, earning him his 25th

professional win . and the pope professional win. and the pope has opened easter celebration in rome by attending a palm sunday service the day after being sent home from hospital with bronchitis. pope francis was dnven bronchitis. pope francis was driven to st peter's square in the vatican city, sitting in the back of an open topped car as it passed through the crowds. the 86 year old was taken to hospital on wednesday complaining of breathing difficulties but returned home to the vatican yesterday . tv to the vatican yesterday. tv online dab . plus radio and on. online dab. plus radio and on. tune in. this is gb news. now it's back to . it's back to. camilla welcome back to the camilla tominey show in just a moment, i'm going to be speaking to labour peer charles falconer. i'm also going to be speaking to the former foreign secretary, sir malcolm rifkind, to get his take trump. the

take on donald trump. the post—brexit the post—brexit trade deal, the situation and later situation in israel. and later on in the show, i'm going to be speaking to the lawyer representing michael cohen, who's heart of who's the man at the heart of the donald trump indictment scandal. to come. scandal. so a lot more to come. first of all, though, let me join me introduce you to now join let me introduce you to now lord falconer, the lord charlie falconer, who's the labour peer and former justice secretary. lovely you, secretary. lovely to see you, charlie, call you that. charlie, if i may call you that. of course . familiar as all of course. familiar as we all with each other. now, let's get started on sir keir starmer's council yeah, this is council tax plan. yeah, this is intriguing he wants intriguing me. he wants to freeze tax . he's not yet freeze council tax. he's not yet in government, but at the same time he's perfectly happy for labour across the labour run councils across the country to be putting up council tax by 5. he's even quite tax bills by 5. he's even quite happyin tax bills by 5. he's even quite happy in this great capital city for khan be putting for sadiq khan to be putting them by almost 10. what do them up by almost 10. what do you would freeze council you say he would freeze council tax because understands tax because he understands that people under people are suffering under labour if labour council share his and he is the leader his ethos and he is the leader of why they put in of the party, why they put in council up and why could we council tax up and why could we trust on when know trust him on this when we know that council's put that labour council's put council describing what council tax he's describing what labour if were in labour would do if they were in central government they

central government and they would freeze council tax and they make money available they would make money available from windfall this is from a windfall tax. and this is a reference from meeting. a reference from the meeting. well labour don't cut well the welsh labour don't cut council , they put it up. council tax, they put it up. labour's in charge of london, they've put council tax up by 10. the average apparently of labour run councils , of which labour run councils, of which i believe the shadow cabinet , most believe the shadow cabinet, most of them, the two thirds of them are in these councils. they've put up by 5. so we put council tax up by 5. so we can't really believe what you're saying on this, john. i think you can, because the reason why council gone up in council tax has gone up in all of those councils the last of those councils over the last few is because of the few years is because of the freeze and squeeze from central government . what keir is saying government. what keir is saying is we were in government, is if we were in government, we would freeze council tax. we would freeze council tax. we would make available all the gap that that would cause because we understand what people have gone through over the last few years. it's been an absolute nightmare because of the way central government has squeezed money and forced councils . labour government has squeezed money and forced councils. labour and conservative to increase council

tax to key is saying is we can remove that burden not all of it but we can stop it going up and we can increase the expenditure that will be available from central government because of the windfall tax. now it makes sense . we all feel tax paying sense. we all feel tax paying for like literally every labour policy seems to be costed according to the windfall tax. we want to do this. the windfall taxes pay for it. we want to freeze council tax, the windfall tax paying for is tax is paying for it. is this all being properly where all being properly costed? where can the calculations on can we do the calculations on this? it has all been properly costed. and if you'd like to invite mr. mcfadden, the chief executive he executive on the show before he will come back on. he's a very and he will explain to you that it is all properly costed , but it is all properly costed, but surely in the context of the world which are living at the moment, central government has got a role in relation to this. and what's more, should some of the burden be carried by the energy companies that have made a amount of profit from the

a huge amount of profit from the increase in energy ? does labour increase in energy? does labour takes the view that jeremy finishes support for labour takes to be the burden should be shared and those are the broadest shoulders should carry as much as their broad shoulders should allow. and yet at the same labour very same time labour is very aggressively pursuing their own net zero strategy. they want the government to go quicker on this. yeah, i've just been speaking to george eustice about it . i was net zero strategy is it. i was net zero strategy is just make the poor poorer. it's the same with this ludicrous ulez which again a labour mayor is foisting on people , hard is foisting on people, hard working people of this city. it costs the poorer more money. so it's not the broader issues accepting this stuff, is it, charlie? it's people who are driving white van vans, it's nurses, it's junior doctors. apparently all of that public sector pay rises are going to be wiped out by this ulez. so which is it ? should we a stand? is it? should we take a stand? let's london to start with. let's take london to start with. if governor and central government was not so harsh on, for example, public transport, there would be much cheaper

pubuc there would be much cheaper public transport. the reason why people have to use their own vehicles is because of central government's real down on london's public transport policy for example. so this is going to change. the world's temperature is going to make the world safer over the long term. but how can we need to have a ulez when you're already saying that you support the policy of eradicating petrol and diesels, ergo , if i may use that role ergo, if i may use that role that jacob rees—mogg in fear for, therefore yeah, i air pollution is going to decrease at the very moment that you're charging people. also, there are people who have got first hand experience of ulez and indeed ldn saying that it's now taking them 2 hours to do a journey that should have taken 20 minutes all the time. they're doing that . they're pumping doing that. they're pumping fumes out of their car. no, that's completely wrong. first of all, the aldi ends the amount of all, the aldi ends the amount of fuel being discharged into the atmosphere in the aldi ends is now very , very much like

is now very, very much like woodlands blocked, 240 ambulances and you're constantly changing your visit. i'm as far as my position is audience aren't a good thing to do. this isn't a good thing. well, i'm in favour of the both evidence because they reduce the amount of it is because they of traffic it is because they reduce the amount of pollution and both of those things we need to address. of them to address. but both of them affect poor badly. well both affect the poor badly. well both of disproportionately affect the poor badly. well both of theisproportionately affect the poor badly. well both of the isprop people ely to affect the poor. people want to get front line jobs get around to front line jobs and the ulez people who and with the ulez people who can't afford to pay £12.50 a day to in london, even if they to drive in london, even if they have choice. of all, have no choice. first of all, aldi in no way damage aldi ends it in no way damage pubuc aldi ends it in no way damage public transport. they public transport. indeed, they make easier , make public transport easier, certainly relation to ulez. certainly in relation to ulez. yes there people who yes there are some people who have pay more. but the effect have to pay more. but the effect overall will be to reduce pollution and that is a worthwhile thing to do . let's worthwhile thing to do. let's talk about the cpi , tpp. why is talk about the cpi, tpp. why is keir starmer talking this trade deal down? it's good, isn't it, that we have now? i think it's trading relationship with i think he's with 500 million people in the indo—pacific. i don't know the detail of that ,

don't know the detail of that, so what i say. but so be careful what i say. but i think the point that keir is making is that in relation to many of those trade deals, they already so we're already existed. so yes, we're in favour of lots and lots of trade all over the world, but in relation to over claiming as a government, what further progress has been made , i think progress has been made, i think the point that labour is making is this is being rather over exaggerated in terms of what the change was labour's talking about ever closer alignment with europe economically. but by 2050 we understand that the european union will account for just a 10th of the world economy and the cptpp will account for almost a quarter. so labour are running after the wrong people , running after the wrong people, aren't they? i don't think quote aren't they? i don't think quote are running after the wrong people is the right way to look at it. surely we're all in favour of as much trade as possible. you should be really heavily of cp heavily in favour of this. cp tpa. but i think the point that keir making not we're not keir is making is not we're not in of it. we're very in favour of it. we're very breaking it down as a nation, only representing nought point

nought we're keen nought 8. we're very keen to have much as possible. have as much trade as possible. the question is, does this represent massive but represent a massive change? but like say , i'm all in favour like you say, i'm all in favour of lots trade . i'm also of lots of trade. i'm also all in favour lots of trade with in favour of lots of trade with europe. i you are as well. europe. i hope you are as well. we all are. well, we do have an fta with the eu, don't we? and should be blocked from should china be blocked from membership cptpp , membership of the cptpp, according to liz truss, they should i'm sure about that. should. i'm not sure about that. i don't have a view that would i think. i mean, you've got malcolm rifkind coming, you've had george eustice take you on it. charlie, i'm rather neutral them because i'm not really sure what the i want to express a view on things i know a little bit about and i don't. how about men and women? let's discuss that. okay. now, do agree that. okay. now, do you agree with keir starmer that 99.9% of women don't have a penis ? yes. women don't have a penis? yes. okay. so that 0.1. why are labour sort of tying themselves slightly in knots over this? why can't he just say that women don't have penises biologically ? well, obviously, biologically

. that's right. but we're in .that's right. but we're in favour of trans women having rights and being protected. i completely agree with keir and with you . it's a very small with you. it's a very small proportion , but proportion, but self—identification though without any medical certificate . i do, yes. oh, so you're in line with nicola sturgeon? i am . i am in line. why is that? because people find that quite a scary policy. they think that it's going to lead to situations like i bryson up in scotland being put in a woman's prison estate. worry about that estate. they worry about that then leading to sort of men who are posing as transgender, but perhaps to try and evade criminal justice system ending up in women's toilets, women's changing rooms and all the rest of it. then legitimate concerns , aren't they? they are completely legitimate concerns . completely legitimate concerns. the reason i'm in favour of self—identifying is because i think you if you if you are, think if you if you if you are, for example , a trans women for example, a trans women woman, then broadly you should be allowed to live as a trans woman. i also that as far woman. i also think that as far as i can see, the vast, vast,

vast, vast majority of people who are trans women are completely genuine about those who are gaming the system because it does happen. yes, exactly. i'm sure it does. and in those instances, you need proper risk identification. i mean, the example of isla bryson . ay ay ay ay ay mean, the example of isla bryson .ayayayayay.a mean, the example of isla bryson . ay ay ay ay ay . a completely . ay ay ay ay ay. a completely unchanged man who had committed rapes very recently . the idea of rapes very recently. the idea of that person going into a women's prison is frankly ridiculous and you need proper risk identification to stop that ever happening. and indeed, the way a sensible prison service would operate would make sure that that didn't happen. and it's nothing to do with whether or nothing to do with whether or not they've got , for example, not they've got, for example, a trans woman cert. it's to do with what are the risks to all those other people who who are who are in a women's prison. so i've got absolute no problem about that being sensible means to protect women against people

like ida bryson. to protect women against people like ida bryson . but i'm like ida bryson. but i'm sympathetic to trans women and making sure that they are protected because people have deau protected because people have dealt with this issue . people dealt with this issue. people whose rights also need protecting. of course they do. yes i completely set that. and faulkner, thank you very much for joining me. this couldn't forjoining me. this couldn't have been over so quickly. indeed, it's gone very quickly. thank very thank you. thank you very much. thank you. let out a few of let me now read out a few of your views as like to do on your views as we like to do on this show. be see what this show. let's be see what neil neil says thomas neil says. neil says thomas latest definition of a woman is that 99.9% don't have a penis. doesn't this just show that he's a bit silly? well no. faulkner disagrees with that , susan says disagrees with that, susan says on the back of the telegraph piece we were talking about with nigel. yes, we were talking about different political tribes and are going and whether people are going to be their vote to reform be giving their vote to reform next time round. we are conservatives . we have conservatives forever. we have now joined reform our labour friends have joined to maybe the red will go reform next. red wall will go to reform next. i imagine that the i would imagine that the conservatives think not or i hope and says, like hope not. and nigel says, like all other utilities companies,

water company bosses couldn't care less about the uk environment. that was in response to my chat with george eustice just now about the sewage that keeps on being pumped into rivers. now i'm pumped into our rivers. now i'm delighted joined sir delighted to be joined by sir malcolm the studio. malcolm rifkind in the studio. he defence secretary he was defence secretary and foreign and john foreign secretary and john major's cabinet. it's a great week to have you on much indeed for joining me now. week to have you on much indeed for joining me now . let's talk forjoining me now. let's talk first of all about trump, if we may , because this the story may, because this is the story of weekend . as you well of the weekend. as you well know. there's a mocked up mug shot of the former us president in the mail on sunday. do you think that if this legal process goes ahead , that he should still goes ahead, that he should still run for us president? goes ahead, that he should still run for us president ? well, run for us president? well, that's clearly not a matter for a british commentator as to whether you want to voice an opinion. i sure, if you will, from his from the perspective of any candidate, if he's in the circumstances, is in the moment , he's got to come to a judgement. is this actually going to help his campaign or not? and is a pretty not? and trump is a pretty unattractive character , much unattractive character, much more was eight more than he was eight years

ago. even without this indictment. but to have a criminal indictment, because this just a one day event, this isn't just a one day event, this isn't just a one day event, this isn't just a one day event, this is going to dominate the headunes this is going to dominate the headlines the next few headlines for the next few weeks, almost weeks, possibly, almost certainly next months, and certainly next few months, and even people who think that he shouldn't have been charged, we'll whether he should we'll forget whether he should or shouldn't have been the whole subject former subject. it will be former president in court death today. yes defending himself on a criminal charge . but do you criminal charge. but do you think it's an own goal that some of so—called left leaning of the so—called left leaning lawyers, whole city of new lawyers, the whole city of new york, seems to have wanted to get trump and now they've got him because he's now got another. i think it's $4 million in coffers become in the coffers he's become a poster for kind of, you know poster boy for kind of, you know , hunt of the right. , a witch hunt of the right. actually, it's emboldened his campaign . well, first of all, campaign. well, first of all, this the only indictment this isn't the only indictment he's likely to face. there are three or other three or four other investigations the investigations going on at the moment. i think it's a bit moment. and i think it's a bit difficult assume that difficult to just assume that there's a political purpose behind them. the united states prosecution system can sometimes , one suspects, be influenced by

political considerations. but here you have a unique situation of a president. when he was in office . and it's not so much office. and it's not so much this charge . it's a question. this charge. it's a question. for example, did he incite people to try and break the law to declare that the election had been invalid ? or was he involved been invalid? or was he involved in the riots in the capital? now, these will be even more serious . and the very fact that serious. and the very fact that he's having to face these kind of accusations , in my judgement, of accusations, in my judgement, if you're asking me , it should if you're asking me, it should prove to anyone who had any doubts i would totally useless and dangerous. he would be if he was again to become president of the united states, not just for the united states, not just for the americans, but for the world as a whole. and talking about the us presidential race, we now hear that biden is seriously considering running for a second term. that will mean he's 86. i believe . is that just a term too believe. is that just a term too many ? well, it is extraordinary many? well, it is extraordinary that in a country of what is it, 300 million people that they have to have as the two possible

presidential candidates, one in his eighties and one who will be in his eighties if he was to succeed. so it is about time, i would have thought as an external friend of america and observer, it really is about time both the democrats and the republicans look to the next generation. i mean, i find myself no , in my mid seventies myself no, in my mid seventies being ridiculously underused . being ridiculously underused. when anthony, i was an american, i might have been about to enter the white house. you'd be the prime your career. well, prime of your career. well, i think the future would not be what it used to be, but it is a bit a hobson's choice, isn't bit of a hobson's choice, isn't it? and do you think that does have destabilising on have a destabilising effect on the world? well, the rest of the world? well, only in the sense that it creates maximum uncertainty. yes. it's yes. because i mean, if it's biden versus trump, i hope to god it's biden who wins. but you never will he be to never know. will he be able to complete not just will complete his term, not just will he alive? mean, maybe he he be alive? i mean, maybe he just become ill because just will become so ill because of problem that he'd of some other problem that he'd have to hand over. so the choice of becomes of vice president then becomes crucially kamala crucially important. kamala harris, the current vice president, seen as a very president, is not seen as a very strong holder of that office,

but will it be possible to have a candidate? if so, who a new candidate? and if so, who might be? let's talk about might that be? let's talk about russia yesterday, they took russia now. yesterday, they took on the leadership on ownership of the leadership of un security council. yes of the un security council. yes that people as that would strike many people as ridiculous. yes i agree with them. if they feel that . but them. if they feel that. but don't read too much into that. right. the person who chairs the security council literally does no more than that. they don't decide the outcome. and you have five permanent members. it's not quite optics, though, is it? well, the there are various things, but it's not really the opfics things, but it's not really the optics of having a president and in kremlin who has invaded in the kremlin who has invaded his neighbouring country and caused total carnage and hundreds of thousands of loss of lives and people injured of his own citizens as well as ukraine. that's not very good optics ehhen that's not very good optics either. so compared with that, i don't frankly care who chairs the security council. it's a temporary thing. it goes in rotation. it's what the security council does or doesn't do. that is much more important. and do you have a view on china being blocked any participation blocked from any participation in cptpp treaty ? c. t.

in this new cptpp treaty? c. t. c p in this new cptpp treaty? c. t. c p tpp in this new cptpp treaty? c. t. c p tpp deal ? i in this new cptpp treaty? c. t. c p tpp deal? i better ask you to repeat. i don't even think about it. this has been bugging me all morning. you're talking about. you say the deal. you're talking about trade with has said china shouldn't be a part of this. well, the irony is that this organisation was created as a counter to chinese expansion because one of the foolish things, excision thing has done a very in many ways very impressive guy . a very in many ways very impressive guy. but his strategic judgement is useless . strategic judgement is useless. because his main target , as we because his main target, as we all know, is taiwan. yes. and he would admit that. and yet, what does he do? he has, over the last three or four years. forget america, forget europe. forget even australia. he's alienated every one of his asian neighbours japan, india , vietnam neighbours japan, india, vietnam , the countries of southeast asia by having territorial claims on them as well and by taking them forward. so here you have someone who has managed to unite all the asian neighbours.

so that vietnam think of the history of vietnam and america. vietnam vietnamese minister recently said today, america is our partner . yes, china is a our partner. yes, china is a country, but we are just ordinary india, which during the cold war always was non—aligned. we don't take sides. india has just joined what's called the quad with the united states , quad with the united states, japan and australia to discuss how to contain china . now, these how to contain china. now, these things would not have happened, but for the foolish judgements made by xi jinping, who's a bit like putin in that sense, he has got so much power, he doesn't listen to anybody else. and just as mocked up china's handling as he mocked up china's handling of covid, he's mucked up their foreign policy as well. and that's serious stuff. what was your reaction to those two meeting a couple weeks ago? meeting a couple of weeks ago? i mean, anything mean, does that tell us anything new that we didn't know already, instantly? asking instantly? you're asking me because see is because you see what is presented by both of them. putin anqi we're allies, we're anqi jinping we're allies, we're close chums , we are inseparable close chums, we are inseparable . and to some degree that is true. they're both a are authoritarian leaders who

dislike the west to dislike the united states and are trying to create an alternative. but the chinese are much smarter than the russians because when it comes to it , the russians because when it comes to it, when the united nafions comes to it, when the united nations votes to condemn russian invasion of ukraine, china doesn't vote for that motion , doesn't vote for that motion, but doesn't vote against it ehhen but doesn't vote against it either. it abstained . yes. now, either. it abstained. yes. now, that's not your best chum should be doing. and china has, for example, also refused to recognise putin's annexation of these various parts of ukraine as if they're now part of russia. he won't do that. and we also know the ioc, jinping was one of the people very important here that got through to putin, saying under no circumstances threaten the use of nuclear weapons because we will not support you. and the reason they won't support them is not just because trying be because they are trying to be helpful it's because helpful to ukraine, it's because the are very worried. if the chinese are very worried. if you a president for the you have a president for the first hiroshima of first time since hiroshima of a non—nuclear weapon state being threatened by a nuclear state, then guess what will happen on china's border? japan south

korea. taiwan will say, well, if you need nuclear weapons to defend yourself from yes, your big neighbour, maybe we should stop it. but then it sounds to me if nearing the me as if you're nearing the position of russia sort of being a client of china. i mean, a client state of china. i mean, it's not quite pronounced. it's not quite that pronounced. it's state, but the it's not a client state, but the russians to very, very russians have to be very, very careful because as a result, for example, again , putin's example, again, putin's stupidity, the biggest market for their gas was germany and europe . that's now gone. 100% of europe. that's now gone. 100% of it will be gone literally weeks from now. it will never come back. now, when you're dealing with gas, it's not like oil. oil, you can sell it on a ship. you can take it anywhere and sell it at a discount. gas needs pipelines. aren't any pipelines. there aren't any pipelines. there aren't any pipelines at the moment and wouldn't for ten years. are wouldn't be for ten years. are you happy with the government's rhetoric china, though? the rhetoric on china, though? the integrated of integrated review refresh of 2023 has said that china poses an epoch defining challenge. is that strong enough language? actually, yes , think is. actually, yes, i think it is. it's a good question . and let it's a good question. and let me answer i think you still answer it. i think you still have to make a very clear

distinction between how we deal with russia for the time being, because of the invasion of ukraine china , russia has ukraine and china, russia has actually invaded its neighbour, causing it's in the middle of a huge war against its neighbour who's trying to defend itself, see. xi jinping might do that against taiwan. he's not done it yet . and therefore, china is yet. and therefore, china is hugely important . i have always hugely important. i have always taken the view , even with taken the view, even with russia, you are not making a concession by dialogue . you have concession by dialogue. you have to have dialogue . but in the to have dialogue. but in the case of china, also china, unlike russia, is massively integrated in the global economy. so do you think liz truss was too hawkish ? i think truss was too hawkish? i think her language is too hawkish . i her language is too hawkish. i think the policy change. look, she only had 46 days limit to what you to can foreign secretary, i suppose. but the language i think there is a tendency. it's become sort of the to be hawkish on china the norm to be hawkish on china . well, it depends what you mean by hawkish. if it means you've got to tough about what got to talk tough about what

happens china attacks its happens if china attacks its neighbours, not just taiwan , but neighbours, not just taiwan, but also india also other countries that have territory that it claims you've got to be very tough on that. but if it's. is it too late to have a proper cooperative relationship with china on other matters ? for china on other matters? for example, on climate change, on nuclear weapons , on nuclear weapons, on environmental issues? there's a range of issues where if the chinese wish to, which they probably do, and they cannot only be dialogue , but you could only be dialogue, but you could actually make some serious progress . i want to ask you progress. i want to ask you about israel in just a moment, but just briefly, general sir but just briefly, a general sir richard has this richard barrons, has talked this week britain to be week about britain needing to be to have 5 to 10 years notice from vladimir putin should he wish to stage a russian attack . wish to stage a russian attack. are we adequately defended in this country? the spending for defence has gone up to, i think, 2.25 of gdp. people want to 3. well, you're speaking to a former defence secretary, so i don't object if the defence budget is increased. i think that would be very desirable.

but if you're asking a more but if you're asking me a more fundamental question, does russia military threat? russia pose a military threat? more of the question of is britain adequately defended or have we actually depleted our armed forces to an extent when we have the fifth largest defence budget in the world. so compared to vast majority of compared to the vast majority of countries, certainly spend countries, we certainly spend a lot defence most of lot more on defence than most of the does in the united the world does in the united states and china spend more than we do so are we spending enough? well what does enough mean? i was going to make the point, if the russian government under putin has shown itself to be useless at trying to defeat ukraine next door, a much weaker country, a much smaller population. the idea that russia could defeat nato you know, the defence budget of nato is ten times greater than that of russia . its armed forces are russia. its armed forces are infinite , they're more infinite, they're more sophisticated and if the russians cannot even make progress , a few miles in the progress, a few miles in the donbas , the idea that they could

donbas, the idea that they could sweep up across europe is absurd and quick doesn't mean a sorry forgive me. yes. that doesn't mean you don't have to have strong defence. you have to do it to stop them trying to exploit gaps in your defence that could create problems for the baltic states or for other countries. and a quick word on israel. so malcolm, because i know you wanted about know you wanted to talk about that these protests against these which these judicial reform, which i think netanyahu has now backed down slightly, but it's not down on slightly, but it's not for being. what's for the time being. what's what's that? well what's your view on that? well some people say democracy is under threat around the world. what has been extraordinary and very encouraging in israel is that when the was a comparable threat and there may still be one from netanyahu whose government we have over a million israelis not just once , million israelis not just once, day after day, week after week , day after day, week after week, over the last two months, coming out in vast numbers . and the out in vast numbers. and the government has to bend the knee . now, that shows that although israel has big problems at the moment, it's not one of those

countries where the government can ignore civil liberties , can ignore civil liberties, ignore the rule of law, and seem to get away with it. and that's probably encouraging. that's hugely encouraging, not for hugely encouraging, not just for the but it shows that the show, but it shows that civic society, ordinary people who value the freedom , who value who value the freedom, who value the rule of law, can combine and prevent even what seems to be the most powerful government from achieving subjective. this story is not yet finished, but so far it's the people of israel who are winning and it's the government that are losing . so government that are losing. so malcolm rifkind, thank you very much joining much for joining me this morning. you having me morning. thank you for having me to you now. michael to speak to you now. michael portillo former defence portillo, another former defence secretary gb news presenter, secretary and gb news presenter, joins me now . secretary and gb news presenter, joins me now. his show is coming up 11:00. i'd love to know up at 11:00. i'd love to know what you make of my interview just now with your former colleague. it a colleague. well, it was a marvellous advertisement for commentator mid 70 days commentator in his mid 70 days because were talking about because we were talking about age the context of the united age in the context of the united states malcolm is in states and malcolm is in credibly lucid and a very great commentator. he's left some of his diplomacy behind , saying

his diplomacy behind, saying very clearly that he thought that a trumpet tree would be dangerous, saying as a british conservative that he would like to see biden win the election and referring to both putin and sefion and referring to both putin and sesion thing as being stupid . so sesion thing as being stupid. so it wasn't the most diplomatic interview that i've ever heard, but i thought it was full of truths. and is it not very interesting that even the conservative like malcolm rifkind would be hoping that biden would win the election if biden would win the election if biden were the democratic candidate? the democrats ? well, candidate? the democrats? well, it's the ultimate hobson's choice, and i suppose it's a malcolm , like many, many of our malcolm, like many, many of our viewers and listeners are kind of contemplating whether they can stomach the idea of the donald for another four years, orindeed donald for another four years, or indeed whether it's even feasible because of this court case. michael, it's extraordinary what's playing out in the us and later on in my show i'm going to be speaking to lanny who lawyer lanny davis, who is the lawyer of michael cohen, who's obviously the man at the centre of this storm over stormy

daniels. yes but i don't think this court case is going to resolve matter. it it seems resolve the matter. it it seems really he's now to part of really he's now to be part of donald trump's campaign. it doesn't seem to be doing him a great of harm . malcolm risk great deal of harm. malcolm risk he might be interested to know that show i'm going to be that on my show i'm going to be talking about the stone of school, which is a stone that lies, needs be in the lies, that needs to be in the throne on which king charles iii will be crown. but while malcolm rifkind and i ministers , it rifkind and i were ministers, it was back to scotland , was sent back to scotland, having been pinched by the engushin having been pinched by the english in 1296. so we need to borrow it back again for the coronation. and we'll also be talking about ireland talking about northern ireland and camilla, i wonder whether you find nicola angelo's nude statue of david. some parents in florida do . and we're going to florida do. and we're going to be discussing when is art degenerate . thank you very much degenerate. thank you very much indeed for that, michael. now, i don't think it is. it can't i mean, honestly, the things people complain about anywhere don't go anywhere because we're going to get reaction from the

people's panel in sundarbans . people's panel in sundarbans. and i'm also going to be speaking, as i said, to lanny davis, the lawyer representing michael cohen, man at the michael cohen, the man at the heart donald trump heart of the donald trump indictment scandal. go indictment scandal. don't go anywhere .

welcome back to the camilla tominey show we're going to be speaking in just a moment to lanny davis, who is michael cohen's lawyer. he's at the centre of this donald trump indictment that's been indictment story that's been dominated in the headlines all weekend, is ever, case weekend, as is ever, the case with rather orange bleach with the rather orange bleach drinking former us president. but first, let's go to sundarbans, where catherine forster has been with the people's panel. it really intrigued to find out what they made all of interviews . made of all of my interviews. katherine, we've to katherine, we've spoken to george done george eustice. we've done sewage, heat pumps. sewage, we've done heat pumps. i've malcolm rifkind i've spoken to malcolm rifkind there length about foreign there at length about foreign

policy. what's reaction in policy. what's the reaction in sundarbans ? well, the people's sundarbans? well, the people's panel have got lots to say about all these issues, camilla. but let's start with a certain donald trump. andy you have some thoughts on him . too old, too thoughts on him. too old, too dumb to my goodness. very succinct and steve, you're not a fan either . succinct and steve, you're not a fan either. no, i think he's bad for america and democracy and i think he's bad for america's alliances around the world, particularly nato. so very much not in favour. and posed a question to george eustice and tell us what you thought about what he said about he pumps and net zero well thought was interesting and it was the first time i've actually heard a decent response. he had. he mentioned a private member's bill which will not require to us have heat pumps, but an alternative , a lower cost alternative, a lower cost alternative. so i need to see the detail. but that was the most positive response i've so far. so yeah . and talking about far. so yeah. and talking about net zero and the government's announcements and pledges and

also the i'm not even going to try say it. camilla the trans—pacific partnership . alex, trans—pacific partnership. alex, you're pointing out and irony in that, wouldn't you. yeah although we really welcome a deal that will hopefully have a deflationary effect on food costs, there is a certain irony in in announcing the deal with the trans pacific on the same week that we're readjusting the net zero targets and ideally cutting cutting to zero lots of air miles involved potentially . air miles involved potentially. aren't there lots of containers going across the oceans as well 7 going across the oceans as well ? but andy, you have a broader positive view of the than you trade do. yeah, i think it's fantastic . and it's what we fantastic. and it's what we should have had europe but without all the strings and ties and all the bureaucracy , it's and all the bureaucracy, it's just a pure trade agreement. great so you think it will bring benefits to us? i think because we've had such not very much in

the short term . you think it's the short term. you think it's well worth it? absolutely. i mean, if you look at the demographic of the countries where they're going to be partnership, partnering with , partnership, partnering with, they're going to be delighted by all that fantastic british goods. that's great for our export. it's great for our economy. fantastic. all interested in hearing what sir malcolm rifkind had to say. camilla and steve, you were talking about the transfer traffic partnership as well. and china regarding that . tell us a china regarding that. tell us a bit more. yes well, i think it's a good thing overall . bit more. yes well, i think it's a good thing overall. i do rather fear that it may be something of a hostile pass for the uk if we are the ones who have block china's subsequent admission. because as i understand and there's has to be unanimity among members for future members . and if we are future members. and if we are the one that has to block china, then while that might not be a bad thing, it would bring us into conflict with them. and with the aukus deal already on the table that nuclear deterrent

then there could be two fronts in which we're in conflict with them. yes. this partnership, them. yes. and this partnership, of course, is about trade, but also about the symbolism and the soft power that we have. isn't that finally, obviously, we that and finally, obviously, we were talking about the were talking before about the conservatives and andy, where you that wrong. rishi you felt that gone wrong. rishi sunak specifically. steve you voted for new labour in 1997, but what do you think about keir starmer and labour at the moment and would you vote for them if there's a general election tomorrow? i couldn't believe keir starmer because i couldn't vote for anybody who been in vote for anybody who had been in jeremy corbyn's cabinet . jeremy corbyn's shadow cabinet. and that his only and also i think that his only policy seems to be get into government. i i don't think he has any really credible alternative to the great problems that we face. so there we have it that even though jeremy corbyn has been thrown out of the labour party and will not be allowed to stand as a labour mp in the next election, some previous labour voters think that keir starmer is

tainted by association and so a lot of work for labour to do even though they are way in the polls. back to you in the studio. coming up . thank you so studio. coming up. thank you so much for that, catherine. thank you to everyone in st albans. i shall in town tomorrow shall be in the town tomorrow returning to where i was brought up. lovely to speak to people up. so lovely to speak to people there. now, lenny davis, lawyer for cohen joins me now. for michael cohen joins me now. larry, very much indeed larry, thanks very much indeed for getting up so early over there to speak to there in washington to speak to me just for the uk. audience has a bit confusion, think, a bit of confusion, i think, about being a criminal case about this being a criminal case now. hush money that's been now. this hush money that's been paid stormy daniels and paid to stormy daniels and perhaps others, what exactly is donald trump accused of here? so he's accused what his former lawyer my client, michael cohen , went to jail for. and that is if you pay somebody money right before an election or with any political motivation in order to prevent that person from telling the american people information, in this case, an alleged affair with stormy daniels that might

have influenced voters had they known about it. that is a federal crime and probably a state crime as well . why? state crime as well. why? because the southern district of new york, which are prosecutors in the united states , maybe the in the united states, maybe the most prestigious prosecutors , most prestigious prosecutors, accused michael cohen of facilitating that payment behalf of his client, donald trump. and they said this is serious crime because it deprives voters of the information that they need. and it's using money to hush somebody up. so it's a serious felony. it is a crime to do that. and michael cohen did the time and the federal prosecutors said publicly that donald trump, they called him individual one when he was president, instructed, directed michael cohen to do the crime and cohen did the time he went to jail for that instruction. so the question in america right now is not politics. and i hear all of

you talking about politics in our courtrooms, our jurors , just our courtrooms, our jurors, just as in great britain . and we as in great britain. and we follow the tradition as you all know, the common law of england is what we follow . only the is what we follow. only the evidence in the courtroom matters. so donald trump is going to have to explain in the criminal case, did he direct michael cohen to do this? and if michael cohen to do this? and if michael cohen to do this? and if michael cohen committed this serious crime , why shouldn't serious crime, why shouldn't equal justice apply to anyone, including an ex—president ? and including an ex—president? and lanny, what's yours and michael's reaction to donald trump's talk of this being a witch hunt, this idea that lawyers and others in new york have been out to get him for years. so this is the donald trump playbook . you notice there trump playbook. you notice there isn't a single fact in one of those words he attacks and uses labels , but he doesn't labels, but he doesn't understand facts. in fact, he doesn't understand the difference between facts and non facts. and i say that as a

democrat who didn't support him, but i don't think there's a lot of dispute among people who work for him, known him for years is that his attention span doesn't grasp facts. so what he's got to do in a courtroom and he has no choice, unfortunately for him is facts , evidence that then 12 facts, evidence that then 12 people call the jury will have decide whether he's guilty or innocent or the conversation and talking heads about politics may be a reality in the political arena, but when he gets into that courtroom, there are 12 people are going to have to decide, is he telling the truth ? and i think, you know, whether you are a trump supporter or a non trump supporter, that the truth a word, that donald truth is not a word, that donald trump familiar with . but trump is very familiar with. but is there not an argument to say that this has been quite self—defeating when it comes to donald trump's own presidential hopes? second time round, we hear he's got another $4 million in the coffers he wants his mug shot to be on his election posters. this is just giving him pubuchy posters. this is just giving him publicity for the whole weekend

. and beyond that, he could only have dreamed of. so i'm really here to talk as a lawyer and about the case against donald trump and to explain to you this is about evidence and facts. it's not about politics. but since you asked, i'll answer. remember, we have two elections in the united states and there's a lot of confusion when even in your if you're saying your question, if you're saying is he strengthened among his base of voters, that i would say are somewhat fanatic and cult like. yes he's very benefited by all of language he uses. but that does not constitute a significant number of general election , meaning independent election, meaning independent voters , democratic voters. he's voters, democratic voters. he's harmed by a continuation of his disregard of the law of equal justice under the law. he was very much in favour of michael cohen going to prison. and yet the prosecutor who says he instructed michael cohen to do the hush money so equal justice under the law applies to independent voters who largely

determine our elections, and democrats as well . so when you democrats as well. so when you say he's helped. yes he's helped to get nominated i have to say somewhat not sure about this , somewhat not sure about this, that i hope he is nominated because he's the candidate, as we saw in the 2022 midterm congressional elections between presidential elections , the presidential elections, the republicans were supposed to take 60 or 70 seats in majority . in the house, they only got five. and everybody in donald trump endorsed lost because it was a general election . so was a general election. so remember the difference between primary elections where the base votes and that's where trump is being helped versus the general election to run for president . election to run for president. he's being harmed, which is why a lot of democrats say that they have mined him. the nominee. lenny, how many charges is he looking as if he's going to face and win it ultimately, potentially end his political career ? so first of all, i don't career? so first of all, i don't know the grand jury in our system is secret until it publishes the indictment . an

publishes the indictment. an indictment is just an accusation indictment is just an accusation in our system. and i believe in the british system. donald trump is an innocent man until he is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by 12 people inside the courtroom, not by political polls, not by attack messages that he's so used to . messages that he's so used to. so i don't know how many charges he faces, but i have read in the media that he has 20 or 30 separate counts of business fraud, as well as the felony of paying fraud, as well as the felony of paying somebody to be quiet so that the american people don't have all their information before they vote . okay. thank before they vote. okay. thank you very much indeed for that. lanny davis . you very much indeed for that. lanny davis. it you very much indeed for that. lanny davis . it should be lanny davis. it should be beholden on me to point out that, of course, donald trump denies all of these charges , but denies all of these charges, but we will keep you abreast of the news going on in new york as happens now. don't go anywhere because we've got a tasty generation gap . come on. would generation gap. come on. would you believe just stop oil. don't go anywhere . see you in just go anywhere. see you in just a moment .

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and welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now it's . time for tominey show. now it's. time for the generation gap. that's the part of the show where people from different generations debate topics . debate hot political topics. this week, we're going to be talking about oil. on talking about just tap oil. on friday, the six just stop oil protesters . who disrupted the protesters. who disrupted the grand silverton last grand prix at silverton last july were spared jail with three given suspended prison sentences and a third forced to pay a fine. now five of the protesters ran onto the track after a crash and sat on the track, managing to suspend the race. cars were still being driven to the pit lane as marshals and the police dragged the protesters away. so is this sort of disrupt active and dangerous protests justified 7 and dangerous protests justified ? or is it simply to dangerous? well, i'm delighted to be joined now by shawn irish, who is a just stop oil protester and

peter blakeslee. he's a former police met detective. now shawn, this silversun protest was complete madness, wasn't nearly cause injury. we had trying to sort the situation out. you then have in all of your protests a huge amount of police involvement that cost them time and hours. how on earth can it be justified ? yeah. so my name be justified? yeah. so my name is shawn. i'm from the just oil coalition, and we were demanding that the uk government and new fossil licences an fossil fuel licences an absolutely of our absolutely dislike all of our actions was thought out and planned. so we went on with a red light when it was safe. we took half of which is safe to sit on a green present, safe to do nothing about the climate crisis. that is the real question. you know, at the moment government is not moment our government is not doing own zero doing enough. their own net zero tragedies. i've been deemed illegal. they've gotten rid of the green day and changed to the green day and changed it to energy they energy security because they know a carbon is know themselves on a carbon is a 1. they become a mistake. emissions by the chinese or russian embassies. absolutely. and you should come with me

domestically. if we're talking about domestic production, this is problems that is the problems that domestically we're domestically we produce 1. we're doing find doing better on three to find better. and all of our industries in 50 years. so, yeah , but 50 years ago we produced our industries. now don't our own industries. now we don't we've our industries to we've shipped our industries to china and then we china and india and then we blame their emissions blame them for their emissions from fine solutions to from oil just fine solutions to these . young generation these problems. young generation of people who are now more connected with the rest of the world ever. presumably world than ever. presumably because of all of the technological advances have taken your generation, taken place. your generation, sean , is absolutely primed to sean, is absolutely primed to try and come up with some solutions. instead, what you do is spend your time glueing is you spend your time glueing yourself to stuff. what's the how does help ? let's bring how does that help? let's bring in what's policing in peter. what's the policing implication of this? well implication of all this? well let me just make this clear. i am no climate change sceptic. in fact , i think am no climate change sceptic. in fact, i think it's a very important matter and i'm bit of a recycling evangelist as anybody who passes around my house will tell you . that said, house will tell you. that said, did you stop ? house will tell you. that said, did you stop? oil house will tell you. that said, did you stop ? oil protests have did you stop? oil protests have been very , very poorly thought

been very, very poorly thought out. in fact , there's been some out. in fact, there's been some numbskull knuckle dragging kind of tactics which have hoovered up a lot of police resources . up a lot of police resources. having said that, some of the police leadership has been woeful , lamentable and cowardly woeful, lamentable and cowardly , even with a failure to properly the law and to test stated cases. what do you mean? giving a cup of tea to people like sean? giving themselves to motorways? well no, actually, obstruction of the highway, which an offence under the highways of 1980 says that highways act of 1980 says that wilful obstruction of the highway any way is an highway in any way is an offence. but the met police in particular got themselves in such a tangle because there was a state case that went all the way to the supreme court and there ruling that there was a ruling that disruption had to be significant before police could take an before the police could take an action . well, just stop oil were action. well, just stop oil were were protesting day after day after day. that should have been an for being an argument for being significant. police significant. and the police should you should have shown. are you knuckle dragging numbskulls? i mean, i've seen. you said it yourself. we are the young

generation where the most you know, the most educated generation. and said we generation. and you said we should bringing solutions. should be bringing solutions. the around the solutions have been around for . you know, we spend for decades. you know, we spend £200 million a week doing a cost of living crisis people of of living crisis while people of your show cannot afford to feed themselves. we spend £200 million week on the fossil million a week on the fossil fuel industry. know, the fuel industry. you know, the only you can build a turbine only way you can build a turbine in uk where tax exemptions, in the uk where tax exemptions, if own an oil field, you if you own an oil field, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous to make oil field net zero. to make an oil field net zero. you know we're not looking you know what? we're not looking at not at solutions. we're not insulating homes. insulating british homes. and, you i agree with peter on you know, i agree with peter on some level, you know, it's like this ridiculous our this is ridiculous that our government point, government advice to this point, you using, you know , the you know, using, you know, the passion of young people for political gain and so is the police. you know, they're not enforcing the laws as they stand police. you know, they're not enforcirtheye laws as they stand police. you know, they're not enforcirthey canvs as they stand police. you know, they're not enforcirthey can bring:hey stand police. you know, they're not enforcirthey can bring iny stand police. you know, they're not enforcirthey can bring in new nd so that they can bring in new laws get rid of laws that can get rid of dissent, know, and sean. dissent, you know, and sean. sure. that is why in so many sure. and that is why in so many regards, you have scored own goal after own goal. firstly, you've alienated so many people because you disrupted people's everyday lives. and people were very resent awful about that.

secondly you force the government to create more punitive laws which prompted you to describe yourself. you just and then letter. and thirdly, sean, a number of your people went to prison, three ngos you need to learn the persuasion and do less protest . sure. you know do less protest. sure. you know what the persuasion . absolutely what the persuasion. absolutely right. you know what? the right. and you know what? the suffragettes should have known that just that she should just talk nicely. queer rights nicely. the queer rights movement should just nicely. and they government would movement should just nicely. and they granted government would movement should just nicely. and they granted it government would movement should just nicely. and they granted it to overnment would movement should just nicely. and they granted it to them.nent would have granted it to them. mercifully, know that mercifully, we just know that that and that historically inaccurate and you historically you know what's historically accurate that accurate there were form that the have been working the police have been working for decades activism within decades has been activism within the finding the police force. police finding out action against out and taking action against police talk about police force. talk about whistleblowing . you opposed whistleblowing. are you opposed to action ? they to that type of action? they are doing? not doing what doing? they're not doing what they should do. they it's not sitting tightly. they're sitting in tightly. they're standing being counted. standing out in being counted. and commended for that. and you've commended for that. i know you object me doing it, know you object to me doing it, glueing objects, glueing yourselves objects, roads, stopping people, getting to a very important hospital, employment's slowing down the

economy by failing to allow people to get to work is really not the way to engage with the masses. powerful intellectual persuasion is the way to get a mass movement. you do not have a mass movement. you do not have a mass movement. you do not have a mass movement at the moment. you're a very small number 32nd response from you. look you know, that's been accurate. we have intelligent conversation for decades. the ipcc reports , for decades. the ipcc reports, we have had scientists begging and pleading with the government and pleading with the government and the government have said no, the donation, the fossil fuel donation, £100,000 every year to our party. we are not going to go against them. and that's the facts. but does glueing yourself to the floor really make much difference to global temperature as point sean did standing as final point sean did standing in the king's horse in front of the king's horse help suffragettes. we don't help the suffragettes. we don't know the change. know until we see the change. all right, gentlemen, we'll have leave as time is upon leave it there as time is upon us.thank leave it there as time is upon us. thank you very, very much for me this morning. us. thank you very, very much for blakeslee 1is morning. us. thank you very, very much for blakeslee andforning. us. thank you very, very much for blakeslee and shawn. us. thank you very, very much for blakeslee and shawn irish. peter blakeslee and shawn irish. we back next week at we will be back next week at 930. next, we've got michael portillo who as ever , has got an portillo who as ever, has got an absolute smorgasbord of guests for you. please do stay tuned.

michael's on just a jiffy. don't go anywhere .

good morning to you and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. with 2 hours of good conversation , the arts and conversation, the arts and entertainment as food dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous two. it's been nearly 25 years since the belfast agreement that brought peace to northern ireland was made on good friday, 1998. the celebration of the anniversary may be muted , but anniversary may be muted, but it's because the institutions created in the accord are not

functioning . and because a