was even lied under oath and yet was pardoned . in this case, we're pardoned. in this case, we're talking about $130,000 payment, which it is said by the prosecution it should have been accounted for as an election expense. but remember, the hillary clinton campaign funded illicitly, the steele dossier , illicitly, the steele dossier, which turned out to be entirely untrue about trump , and they untrue about trump, and they were fined . barack obama's were fined. barack obama's campaign misreported funds received biggest fine yet seen in american political history . in american political history. the same happened to bob dole, who was a losing republican presidential candidate. mr. bending on his campaign, he received a fine. can you see where i'm going with this $130,000 against that election campaign in which $1.6 billion was spent? is it most a rounding error and yet the very highly politicised judicial system in america has decided to go after

trump. why they didn't do this back in 2017 2018 is anybody's guess. while it you know what it is, they will do anything to stop him running in 2024. they fear , of course, that he might fear, of course, that he might win again. they suffer with trump derangement syndrome . they trump derangement syndrome. they literally hate him so much . they literally hate him so much. they can't be objective in what they're doing. now what we understand will happen at 715 uk time , what we understand will time, what we understand will happenis time, what we understand will happen is he'll be presented with the charges. we understand there'll be up to 30 charges, separate charges . but around separate charges. but around this series of payments that were made to the actress stormy daniels . were made to the actress stormy daniels. trump is were made to the actress stormy daniels . trump is expected to daniels. trump is expected to plead not guilty to all of them , but think of it like this. this isn't donald trump that's on trial. this is due process. that's on trial. this is the

american constitution that on trial. it's america that is on trial. it's america that is on trial . and there are rumours trial. and there are rumours that the judge may even these events won't be televised . there events won't be televised. there are rumours that the judge may even put a gag order on trump or a partial gagging order on trump, which would mean that after hearing what he's free to go and he's due to fly back down to palm beach and give a speech at 1:15 am. uk time at mar a lago, if a gagging order was put on him, he wouldn't be allowed to speak about the prosecution . to speak about the prosecution. he wouldn't be allowed publicly to speak about the charges. and if he did , he would then be in if he did, he would then be in contempt of court and could be pretty much immediately arrested . i cannot believe they'd be as stupid as to put a gagging order on him because my big fear is this if you lose faith in your

judicial system, if you lose faith in your democratic system, then people get pushed to using means that are outside the norms of peaceful democratic conduct and that is actually how serious i believe this whole thing is . i i believe this whole thing is. i worry i that if tens of millions of americans lose faith in the whole process, i worry what the outcome could be for america , outcome could be for america, for the western world, for and all of us. well, let's go live to manhattan and let's join gb news as political editor darren mccaffrey freeh, who is there . mccaffrey freeh, who is there. darren, from what i could see on the footage from the motorcade , the footage from the motorcade, the footage from the motorcade, the left trump tower has peacefully and we got incident arrived at the courthouse . yeah, arrived at the courthouse. yeah, indeed. arrived at the courthouse. yeah, indeed . good afternoon, nigel. indeed. good afternoon, nigel. live from, as you say, new york. donald trump left school about 45 minutes ago. trump tower just 45 minutes ago. trump towerjust behind me made the relatively short just four miles down to lower manhattan to manhattan's

criminal court. he is now officially under arrest, as you say, an historic moment. we've never seen this in the entire history of the united states before. what is happening right now is that essentially he's having his fingerprints taken . having his fingerprints taken. he's going through that process, if you like, before appearing in courtroom 15 at manhattan criminal courts. now, there were no cameras inside that court. in fact, there were no phones allowed inside that court . and allowed inside that court. and thatis allowed inside that court. and that is partly the judgement of the judge in this case. and indeed of the trump camp, who did not want any of this to be filmed. there are some cameras outside the courtroom, though, and it is possible donald trump may something as he may well say something as he goes that courtroom, but goes in to that courtroom, but then he will be read, as you say, charge sheet against say, the charge sheet against him . us media reported it could him. us media reported it could be up to 30 separate charges. we don't know the detail of that and we'll we will find that out in the next 50 minutes or so. and said, he is going to and as you said, he is going to plead and which all plead not guilty and which all very by his lawyers, he's very loudly by his lawyers, he's going to plead not guilty. it is

that from that point will then hear from the judge, will he'll set out any conditions on this after all this is criminal case and even this is a criminal case and even though this is one of those famous men in the world and this trial is being followed by pretty much every news organisation in the world, there is trying to is an attempt trying not to prejudice trial because if prejudice the trial because if it go trial , it will it does go to a trial, it will be held in front of a jury, though i don't know how though it's i don't know how you'll this city you'll find anyone in this city who doesn't. an opinion on donald trump, but then is donald trump, but then he is free to we'll be placed on free to go. we'll be placed on bail. the expectation is bail. and the expectation is he's come back. he's not going to come back. he's go to the he's going to go straight to the airport, on the plane and airport, get on the plane and fly back. tomorrow, i'll go in florida where he's going to talk to his supporters tonight. i agree i think it's agree with you. i think it's pretty unlikely that the judge will real conditions on will put any real conditions on what to say about what he's allowed to say about this. i think the first amendment rights of freedom of speech will trump, if speech will trump will trump, if you in this circumstance . you like, in this circumstance. but it is an extraordinary moment and it's a moment that's going to have big impact on going to have a big impact on the us presidential we've the us presidential race. we've already seen that he's raised

some $7 million so far, even in the last week on the back of this indictment , and also that this indictment, and also that his support among republicans has somewhat surged at the cost of all the republicans. the bigger question, of course, is how with the rest of the how play with the rest of the general public. but as i say, it is an historic moment. it is a moment that i don't think donald trump even suspected may well have happened on the way to the courthouse, he tweeted or he sent out on his social media platform. wow i'm going to be arrested. that he couldn't believe that this was going to happenin believe that this was going to happen in the united states, as though for the new york district attorney here and new york state, they clearly feel that they've got enough evidence to bnng they've got enough evidence to bring this to a criminal trial. they feel that he has broken the law . but they feel that he has broken the law. but we're they feel that he has broken the law . but we're to have to law. but we're going to have to see this plays out. it is see how this plays out. it is not to happen any time not going to happen any time soon, though, this is soon, though, nigel. this is going to take months potentially over next year before over the next year before we actually to court, actually see this go to court, even if it ends up that and thus far , darren, mean, you know, far, darren, i mean, you know, we've seen some shots of trump

support says and trump haters , support says and trump haters, but thus far things in new york are peaceful. yeah yeah, indeed. i was at the courthouse for much of this morning and yeah, there were, you know, a hundred couple of people, maybe up to a thousand people who've now gathered there, of them trump supporters, some anti—trump. there were scuffles there were a few scuffles earlier, but nothing really of no . unsurprisingly, there is an no. unsurprisingly, there is an enormous police presence at dawn there in lower manhattan . lots there in lower manhattan. lots of journalists as in fact, there's more journalists, i would suspect, than there are actually supporters . anti—trump actually supporters. anti —trump protest actually supporters. anti—trump protest hours. and we did hear from the mayor of new york yesterday pleading with them to remain sensible that this shouldn't descend into violence. i suspect it probably won't. the nypd said they had no real evidence that anyone was planning on any violence . but, planning on any violence. but, yes, this is a country that and you know, nigel, you spend an awful lot of time here you know this country is divided on its view of trump. we have seen

violence in the past. i don't think we're likely to see it today. but there will be questions about the judicial process, about whether they should gone court. lots should have gone to court. lots of feel that it of republicans feel that it shouldn't have though, shouldn't have done, though, for trump. concerned trump. he should be concerned well about the fact that the role investigations role of rather investigations into some would suggest far more serious allegations about what may happened in george or may well happened in george or indeed documents that ended indeed the documents that ended up in mar a lago . but at the up in mar a lago. but at the moment, you would have to argue that this is something that seems to be playing in trump's hands and that he is sucking the oxygen, if you like, the oxygen and away from his and publicity away from his republican that republican rivals. that politically moment it is politically at the moment it is doing him quite well for his protesters and his supporters are quite angry by the fact that, you know, we've ended up in this position where a man who was president of the united states is formally under states is now formally under arrest . daryl darren mccaffrey, arrest. daryl darren mccaffrey, thank you. we'll come back to you over the course of the next houn you over the course of the next hour. well you know, it's fair

enough to say that donald trump divides opinion. i don't believe donald is under trial. it's not him . it is actually due process him. it is actually due process . the american judicial system , . the american judicial system, integrity, impartiality fairness. these are the things that are actually being tried . that are actually being tried. and i worry as to what the outcome of all of that may be. and i'm joined by and i have to both of you gentlemen, thank you for coming. we will not get any recorded proceedings from the court, but in about 5 minutes, it'll begin. freddie grey. grey he was editor of the spectator and of course , greg swensen and of course, greg swensen chair of republicans oversees . chair of republicans oversees. greg this is so overtly political . yeah, that's another political. yeah, that's another it's almost astonishing . it it's almost astonishing. it really is. and it's a sad day. i mean, this is really, as you said in, your opening. you know, americans are losing faith in the system. well, that's especially in the judicial system and the justice system of justice. and this is not a game for america. you're going to see

retaliation from the right i don't mean in the form of violence or anything like that. i'm just talking about, you know, exposing some of the same kind of things that have gone on. you mentioned hillary clinton and the dossier. you know , was that was just trying know, was that was just trying to hunter biden laptop, know, was that was just trying to hunter biden laptop , for to hunter biden laptop, for example. i just i to hunter biden laptop, for example. ijust i didn't to hunter biden laptop, for example. i just i didn't even example. ijust i didn't even mention the millions of dollars thatis mention the millions of dollars that is from corrupt payments to see. two weeks ago, the bank of america really had they were and had released bank statements that showed payments from c.p.s. the china company that hunter affiliated with to the biden to james to haley biden to an unknown biden. so those are things that we want to be made pubuc things that we want to be made public so that voters make a decision you know let the voters you know elections should be about voting and not the hostility from know or the weaponization of the justice. and that's the real shame here. that's the worry. gentlemen, stay with me . we're going to go

stay with me. we're going to go live to the usa. we're going to speak to the former mayor of new york, rudy giuliani . only rudy. york, rudy giuliani. only rudy. good good afternoon. welcome once again to the program .we've once again to the program. we've lost him .we've once again to the program. we've lost him . we've lost once again to the program. we've lost him .we've lost him. we've lost him. we've lost him. we've lost him. we've lost him. we've lost him. we will get rudy giuliani back. i'm sure you will. freddie grey, you've spent a lot of time as a journalist in america and the spectator as a magazine making inroads over there . quick question . i sense there. quick question. i sense in this country , even on the in this country, even on the radio four's today program , radio four's today program, there are people saying , you there are people saying, you know, justin webb, people like saying this is overtly political . you know, i said even the bbc are being balanced, whatever they may think of trump as a person, they're rising above that. what's how are american media playing this? well, i think that's i think there's a similar sort of disbelief on channels where you probably wouldn't expect it all, perhaps

it's a sort of slight silence, a kind of we've actually. and done it feeling. yeah you know and perhaps even a little bit of guilt you know because because you know we've had seven years of this of endless trump trials, smoking guns . we have we had the smoking guns. we have we had the russia hoax, the miller inquiry into it to, failed impeachments. it's never ended . it's never it's never ended. it's never ending. and it and it's going to carry on different fronts. now we're going to have about we're going to have more about the georgia you know, the georgia case. you know, trump need to find trump saying i need to find 12,000 ballots. key word is 12,000 ballots. the key word is find have more january find you'll have more january six stuff, you know, incitement to violence. you'll have more on his taxes. quite what is in these 34 charges is the key point. isaias there's something in them we don't know yet, but i suspect there's something in them that a lot of the media are going to jump on and go, oh, this is new. even if it isn't that new. and i think it might be to do with i mean, the fact that there are 34 charges is odd. think it might be odd. i think it might be something with a witness, something to do with a witness, not necessarily michael cohen, but be a witness that

but it could be a witness that people oh, this person people will say, oh, this person has is has flipped on trump. this is crucial. this prove crucial. this will prove criminality. might be a criminality. so there might be a sort rush of from the media sort of rush of from the media that hates in the coming hours. is there danger for trump that is there a danger for trump that it's an al capone either or one of the other investigations that in the end al capone wasn't down for the racketeering of the terrible violence of the murder he was dubbed the tax is the worry for trump supporters there is there is a danger the politically i think that you know if eugene debs campaigned from jail and got a million votes in the 1912, i don't think americans think of justice. and i think the brits, you know, if someone was in jail, we would think he was too toxic . you think he was too toxic. you know, that would be are not necessarily sure that trump couldn't campaign couldn't run a winning campaign might far but certainly might be too far but certainly an extremely popular campaign from jail given . how absurd most from jail given. how absurd most people accept this persecution of him is most sane people accept that. yeah i mean i've

been saying you know anybody the yeah if you're a trump hater you know you will believe any bad story about him that on cnn or wherever or even fox news these days or whatever it may be. but i think i to say i do think the people to take an even handed approach to this, they've got to say something is wrong within your party, within the republican party. you know, and you've got to go back ten, 12 weeks and lots of talk about a generational shift. right that ron desantis is 44. and hey, you know what, trump 76. mcconnell was 80. pelosi is just a down 80 to the president 80. a lot of talk generational shift and a guy been successful or seemed to be very successful in florida but it kind looks like now that's all over it . it's not all that's all over it. it's not all oven that's all over it. it's not all over. i think it's these things change over time when you think about it. to santos , close the about it. to santos, close the gap on trump in the half of 2022 and then and then the mar a

lago. great happened in august. so trump from plus nine over desantis to plus 39 yes so that was a moment and then since then desantis closed the gap. the midterms didn't go so well for trump candidates. so then you getting into 2023, desantis closing gap again it's almost in many polls he was leading but trump has had a few good months . and of course this is turbocharged numbers and his fundraising . so but again, it's fundraising. so but again, it's still a year away from the primaries. it's still 15, 16 months away from the general election . got a long way right election. got a long way right now. he's got momentum. stay with us, gentlemen. we are going to the united states of america to the united states of america to join the former mayor of new york, rudy giuliani , tony. rudy, york, rudy giuliani, tony. rudy, good afternoon . thank you for good afternoon. thank you for joining us on this astonishing day . i joining us on this astonishing day. i kind joining us on this astonishing day . i kind of joining us on this astonishing day. i kind of didn't think it was really going to happen , just was really going to happen, just how i mean, you know, this system better than most . what do

system better than most. what do the think they're going to achieve by this? i don't the indictment is seven year old incident that has already been passed on by several of the prosecutors who decided there was no case to bring and he resurrect it is part of that . resurrect it is part of that. but i believe the case will be dismissed at some stage before the trial because it has no legal basis and it's another indication that this has been seven or eight years of perfect fusion. basically largely because he challenges status quo, he challenge is the establishment that wants to move us to being one world. george soros dominated socialist government, really a communist government, really a communist government . and this you can

government. and this you can only this as a fascist prosecution and he politically inspired prosecute action of the opposition that has no real bafis opposition that has no real basis is the hallmark of a fascist state that's been and this is what in a neighbours. but you're saying this really you're saying this really you're saying this is a former mayor of that great city as a leading republican . and we're watching republican. and we're watching this from the other side of the pond. we're looking to a country thatis pond. we're looking to a country that is the leader of the western world. and you are telling me that we cannot trust the independence , the neutrality the independence, the neutrality of the american judiciary. do you realise those comments you made , do you realise just how made, do you realise just how bad this looks for america? i do . and it's been this way for some time. nigel, this is just the most indication of the i mean, it all began some time ago

when they decided to fix the hillary clinton case and comey decided to not prosecute her, even though she committed an unbelievably federal crimes, including . 33,000 emails, the including. 33,000 emails, the strangeness of all of this is hillary actually committed the crime they are falsely accusing trump us she paid $1.1 million for a steele dossier which is a tamper document. it was completely falsified and it was charging trump with a crime that he had nothing to do with, which was collusion. the russians. and it was used during her campaign . so that is a campaign contribution that was improperly described as legal fees . this is described as legal fees. this is what brag is charging trump with. instead trump never entered these records. he had nothing to do with how they

would describe . there was a would describe. there was a personal to this payment, which was to spare himself and his family embarrassment from these charges . whether they are true charges. whether they are true or false is irrelevant as far as the morality of it. and i don't believe he did it, but this is far less significant than what bill clinton did then built this. this was the is consensual . sex between two consenting adults, seven years ago , bill adults, seven years ago, bill clinton had multiple sexual acts in the white house with a girl who was working for it and then went ahead and committed a real crime, quote, perjury , payback. crime, quote, perjury, payback. and it was thought , well, that and it was thought, well, that was too personal to prosecute because what even if you believe the trump didn't say nothing embarrassing. i'm taking back to the young girl consent back then having someone who's your subordinate then committing hillary far worse than this. and

we where there is ongoing this is unbelievable these 30 years of taking bribes we are in very very bad condition. nigel and there's no point in hiding it. the rest of the world knows that every time they see biden going to cambodia and thinking isn't in colombia , they have to be in colombia, they have to be saying to themselves, what's wrong with the american people ? wrong with the american people? the man doesn't even know where he is . that is exactly right. he is. that is exactly right. yeah. rudy, i have to say , it's yeah. rudy, i have to say, it's this is a sad day in my view, andifs this is a sad day in my view, and it's been leading up to this, as you rightly say, for some time. this isn't just sad for america it's sad for the western world. and in beijing, they must be their socks off . they must be their socks off. rudy giuliani, thank you for us on this historic but for many of us sad day . few points we know us sad day. few points we know we talk about trump. trump trump drug. something really interesting . what's happened in interesting. what's happened in the last 72 hours. there's getting almost no coverage in the uk at but i think is

the uk at all. but i think is significant . so a few months significant. so a few months ago, a spy plane appears over america. but it's okay , could america. but it's okay, could well be recreational. it's what he's what the white house wants us to think and this all kicks off over a course of nearly six whole days as this balloon is making figure of eight movements over some very important and quite successful us military sites in america finally gets out into the atlantic and gets shot down. we learn now , and shot down. we learn now, and it's been confirmed by nbc and other networks that indeed it was a chinese state spy balloon, that it was capable of live pictures back to beijing . it had pictures back to beijing. it had a self—destruct capability as well . and i thought to myself ,

well. and i thought to myself, this must be one of the most gross negligent acts of a president , leader of any country president, leader of any country in terms of protecting national security . greg, i'm not hearing security. greg, i'm not hearing a word about it. it's completely buried. you know, and i mentioned the payments earlier, you know, the bank of america payments, none of this is making the news. and so, you know, you have something like that which should be front page news. but this is one of reasons the this is one of the reasons the democrats have done this, is they want to keep that. you know, bad about biden know, the bad news about biden away from the press or away from the voters, and that's a shame. and, and i that's a and, you know, and i that's a great example of it. i mean, they were it was a live feed back to beijing. yeah. they knew the balloon. they knew about the balloon when it was over montana and now and even before that. and now the spectator view. this is a story. i think it's a big story. we probably haven't done enough story. i think it's a big story. weit,obably haven't done enough story. i think it's a big story. weit, but)ly haven't done enough story. i think it's a big story. weit, but that'sfen't done enough story. i think it's a big story. weit, but that'sfen'tpoint. enough story. i think it's a big story. weit, but that'sfen'tpoint. butrgh on it, but that's the point. but that's the point. i thought about but that's people do about it, but that's people do imagine with trump . kudlow imagine if with trump. kudlow let's imagine if a russian balloon hovered over america

balloon had hovered over america , trump's presidency, he shut it down and he hadn't shot it down. he outcry he was shot. the outcry hypothetically . yeah, yeah, i, i hypothetically. yeah, yeah, i, i think certainly double standards . and you know, you can argue that biden i wouldn't say is compromised but he is very delicate with china because of these payments and the potential you know for something that we don't even know about you know that he like to keep that quiet. of course. yeah i mean, the fact that there is this mystery biden who's been all this who's been receiving all this money, every journalist in america out. who is america should be out. who is the mystery? biden not a word. no, there was not word. and i guess for anyway. yeah we guess for me anyway. yeah and we have of that in the have done a lot of that in the spectator, hasten add it to spectator, i hasten to add it to be answered. i think that because you're not fake news, we're no no. i mean, we're not. no no. i mean, i think, you know, the truth of is, as i say, i think the british press are covering these events in new york pretty objectively across the board. there's no love for donald trump in the british press. they never has been quite like his out

there york style. but i think it's but i think hold miss. we're being objective. so after this hearing throw charges to be read out trump to respond and it'll be happening right now as we speak and or we can see the pictures outside the manhattan criminal court case as we speak. but this is going to be over in 20 minutes or 25 minutes or whatever it is. he'll head back tomorrow. i'll go 815 tonight. he's going to give a speech in that ballroom. yeah, i'm i'm guessing it's going to be a pretty uncompromising speech . pretty uncompromising speech. you know, i i've got to know him quite well over the course of the last seven years. and as a supporter and a friend , i've supporter and a friend, i've looked at one or two of his tweets. you know , i'm not so tweets. you know, i'm not so sure about this , but, hey, you sure about this, but, hey, you know, that's who he is. i've also thought he did some amazing on foreign policy , but elsewhere

on foreign policy, but elsewhere . how much resilience has he got? greg i mean, how much can guy put up with? he looks pretty well, but he is 76. how much of this can he stand i think he feeds off of it. you know, remember when he announced candidacy in december? hardly hardly anyone showed up. his children were not there. you didn't see the entourage, you saw the guy . my pillow. saw the poor guy. my pillow. scott was the only notable celebrity there . if you want to celebrity there. if you want to call him the nice guy. but, you know, it's not the know, it's not exactly the a—list. you know, you didn't see his cabinet. didn't his former cabinet. you didn't see supporters . so see his big supporters. so it was of fizzling. and the was sort of fizzling. and the democrat that's maybe on purpose, maybe not have lifted him up because that's the theory is that one of the theories is that the democrats think that he's more beatable then perhaps desantis would be. but it's difficult to speculate on that. desantis would be. but it's diffia|lt to speculate on that. desantis would be. but it's diffia thought,:ulate on that. desantis would be. but it's diffia thought, freddy, n that. desantis would be. but it's diffia thought, freddy, about. but a thought, freddy, about conservatism which is conservatism which which is something your magazine writes a lot . the day that he walked down lot. the day that he walked down the left the elevator in trump

tower . oh, we're the left the elevator in trump tower. oh, we're going back now . to mid 2015. he was one of the most well—known , well—loved , most well—known, well—loved, outlandish , larger than life outlandish, larger than life american celebrities. the man with glamorous wives with trump this and trump that and trump aeroplanes and trump and trump hotels and of course, a megastar with the american apprentice . i with the american apprentice. i loved figure and yet as soon as he announces that his politics are now conservative, half the country seems to hate it. where are we going with democracy? are we are we polarising on both sides of the pond ? are we headed sides of the pond? are we headed for a place where those that disagree with each other can't even talk to each other, will suddenly get a very strange state with democracy? biden. biden talks a lot about democracy, but the president of el salvador said the other day,

given what's going with trump, we will never take a lecture from america democracy from america about democracy again . and i think that is a again. and i think that is a problem for america. it's a very deep problem for america because it now it talks about democracy , but increasingly know elections are not trust it whether broadly or not, but not just by republicans, by the democrats as well . the sort of democrats as well. the sort of the things have sustained american democracy for of years are now down and. that is a real problem. and this trial feeds that problem . in terms of trump, that problem. in terms of trump, i think you're right. it's you know, it is a revivified him . know, it is a revivified him. you know, trump fatigue was a real factor. ron desantis is a call is trump fatigue. there's a lot of voters who are just thinking they can't be bothered to go through another seven years of this the draft. yeah with the drama it is exhausting but then this moment could actually be the sort of the moment when it all sparks off again for him. it's all quite extraordinary. gentlemen, thank you for joining extraordinary. gentlemen, thank you forjoining me. good to be

on pretty extraordinary. you forjoining me. good to be on got pretty extraordinary. you forjoining me. good to be on got pretlive.traordinary. you forjoining me. good to be on got pret live shotsinary. you forjoining me. good to be on got pret live shots of ry. you forjoining me. good to be on got pret live shots of .(. we got now live shots of. president trump coming out of the courthouse . we did have the courthouse. we did have we've lost an. can we get him back? yes these are live pictures of the 45th president of the usa leaving courthouse. that means that there's jason miller who's been on this program a few times. he's working for trump as a spokesman at press operative . he always at press operative. he always keeps people waiting, doesn't that's one of his things. well although interestingly, if this started on time at a quarter past two eastern time 7:15 our time that means the whole things over and under 15 minutes. so how many charges we're going to find out so much more over the course of the next minutes and hours. gentlemen, thank you for joining me . well, let's go to joining me. well, let's go to dr. kevin white, assistant professor in american history , professor in american history, durham university, but he joins me from salt city. professor thank you very much, indeed, for joining us this evening.

thank you very much, indeed, for joining us this evening . give thank you very much, indeed, for joining us this evening. give us some context of please. you -—— the idea that an american know, the idea that an american president has just been charged in a courthouse in manhattan with with, you know , criminal with with, you know, criminal potential criminal offences. this has never happened before has it. well, that's true. i mean, unprecedented is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days. and you're right to a certain extent, this is very much unprecedented. this is the first us. president has ever been indicted . but there have been indicted. but there have been indicted. but there have been a lot of presidents, former presidents, who nearly missed getting indicted. and, of course, a long, long list, a legion of powerful american politicians who have actually time bars for convicted time behind bars for convicted crimes. so in a lot of ways is just part of a of a of a long american history. just part of a of a of a long american history . yes. but never american history. yes. but never before to be directly charged in a courthouse with , you know, a courthouse with, you know, just a potential criminal offences. kevin, it we always think of it on this side of the

pond. think of it on this side of the pond . we think of our judiciary pond. we think of our judiciary as being independent, as being neutral . but i guess with the neutral. but i guess with the american constitution , i mean american constitution, i mean that on a federal level, at a state level too, i guess the truth is that the american judicial system has been political really right from the very start . yeah, that's true, very start. yeah, that's true, nigel. i may share your outrage, but i think you put it really well the other day you said this is political, and of course it's political. everything and everyone. donald trump touches is whether this this these charges are justified or whether they're wise, whether they're strategic from a democratic perspective. those are really different questions. i think. but you're right, there's no the political circuits that this is going to become . yeah. no and going to become. yeah. no and you know who's to say which this goes. you know who's to say which this goes . but america, when you go

goes. but america, when you go to america , they always talk to america, they always talk about magna carta. they talk about magna carta. they talk about rule of law . and i'm going about rule of law. and i'm going to have on the program between now and the top of the hour, alan dershowitz , you know, long alan dershowitz, you know, long time dealmaker and people like that are beginning ask questions about whether this system actually works in america anymore or whether these divisions of left and right i mean that may be the country needs some fandoms constitutional change. hmm. i mean i if you're a democratic strategist, you look at this in one of two ways or the legacy of this indictment in one of two ways. if you're an optimist, you say, okay , well, this provides say, okay, well, this provides the blueprint really the opening wedge for further charges being brought against donald for his involvement with january 6th riot, for his attempts to overturn 2020 election. if you're pessimist and i think a lot of democrats are when it

comes to these charges, you say , okay, in this hyper partisan political landscape , you know , political landscape, you know, we're going to see we're going to see a long sort of line of tit for tat , as any former tit for tat, as any former president going to be free of charges being brought against him once he leaves office . i him once he leaves office. i don't think that's going to be the outcome of these charges, but i think that's a that's a very realistic anxiety to know. okay and i mean, i guess, you know, america well, we talk about division it did go through an apprentice civil war, 160 years ago. but in modern times as an historian is america ever been this divided ? not within been this divided? not within the last century, i'd say. i mean , i think the most obvious mean, i think the most obvious parallel here is probably nixon and watergate 40 of his 40 federal officials actually served jail for their involvement with watergate . it's involvement with watergate. it's very likely that nixon himself

would have, but he resigned from office, as we know, and his successor, gerald ford, pardoned him . you can go back actually him. you can go back actually even further to warren harding, who was the president in the early 1920s. his cabinet involved in what was known as the teapot dome scandal, which was a massive corrupt and bribery scandal that actually brought down a number of his cabinet secretaries. harding i think, may have been tried for his involvement in that scandal , but he died of a heart attack. so, like i said, near misses here. but i don't think you're wrong. nigel within living memory . don't think the us. has memory. don't think the us. has been this divided along partisan lines. no no, no. i find it quite disturbing and worrying. kevin white, thank you very much indeed for joining kevin white, thank you very much indeed forjoining us on this indeed for joining us on this extraordinary evening. next up, we're going to speak to dr. monica crowley, former assistant to secretary the treasury in the trump administration and now host of the monica crowley

podcast . monica you are you're a podcast. monica you are you're a full on trump loyalist . and you full on trump loyalist. and you have been, i think, for quite some time. how do you feel about what's going on today ? well, what's going on today? well, nigel, thank you so much for having me. it's an absolute delight to join you here. yes in fact, as far as i know, nigel, i was the very first non—family donald trump about 72 hours after he came down that golden escalator in june of 2015. i went on television and i said to everybody mocking him, stop laughing. do not underestimate him. he is going to pull the whole thing off. and he did. and so for me to what is happening now , not just to donald trump now, not just to donald trump and his family, but to my country , which has a long country, which has a long tradition of the constitution , tradition of the constitution, the bill of rights do you process to see it being ripped to shreds for political reasons is over a man who simply wanted

to deliver for the forgotten men and women in this country and did he delivered a booming economy and world peace . and in economy and world peace. and in so doing, nigel he created a vast swath of enemies in the deep state, the administrative state, the property and the press, and among the globalists . and from moment one, because he posed such an existential threat, they needed to try to destroy him . what you're seeing destroy him. what you're seeing today is a very moment for the united states . it is a political united states. it is a political . this is not in prosecution. this is going to be the first of many. i anticipate that with the other cases . you will be hit other cases. you will be hit with other indictments . they with other indictments. they need to stop him . and you know need to stop him. and you know what? frankly, nigel i think after about eight years of donald trump standing up for the forgotten men and women in this country, they his enemies are really flummoxed . that really flummoxed. that everything that they have thrown

at this man from the russia hoax to fake impeachments to the january six to rigging the 2020 election, to the costs of i documents raid on mar—a—lago . documents raid on mar—a—lago. the fact that this man is still standing is a source incredible frustration for his enemies , but frustration for his enemies, but also the fact that they have to keep throwing these at him to try to kneecap him to prevent him from being president again . him from being president again. oh, look mean i think that the amount of abuse that he's taken and his through it all has been remarkable. but those monica on the other side of the debate will say that it's beyond doubt that stormy daniels was paid . that stormy daniels was paid. $130,000 and that this may be a rounding error in terms of total campaigning expenditure, but that she this money and that it have been recorded in a more accurate way. i mean there is something there there. well if

you want to go down that , then you want to go down that, then if you take the issues on the merits, since you just laid out then in new york state that would be a misdemeanour. yes. serious, corrupt d.a. would be a misdemeanour. yes. serious, corrupt da. in manhattan, alvin bragg has about 60% of the time taken crimes down from felonies , down from felonies, misdemeanours. in this , he's misdemeanours. in this, he's taking what could be a misdemeanour and elevating it to a felony . again, to fulfil a felony. again, to fulfil a campaign promise he made a couple of years ago that if he were elected d.a. he would, quote, get trump . the other quote, get trump. the other important thing to in mind here, nigel, is said politicians do this all the time . this is this all the time. this is leaders do this all the time. and again, i'm not excusing it, but i am setting it into context. and in fact , mrs. context. and in fact, mrs. clinton, when she was running against donald trump in 2016, she did exactly this, only with much more nefarious purpose , is much more nefarious purpose, is

she brought campaign bought the steele dossier , which was a pac steele dossier, which was a pac giant pack of lies for $1,000,000 paid a foreign spy by christopher steele in order to produce that dossier. miss label did as some sort of campaign expense funnelled it through a law firm. perkins cary and she just got a on the wrist. she got a little fine. so it shows you the dual system of justice this country. and while all like to say nobody is above the law. well, that's true . however, well, that's true. however, nobody should be target . did the nobody should be target. did the law in this country or frankly, any western country now there is any western country now there is a completely unfair application of the way that both of the clintons have been treated , the clintons have been treated, the way indeed that perhaps hunter biden has not yet been treated . biden has not yet been treated. and what is happening to donald trump that is beyond doubt. now it looks, although within the

republican party itself, within the conservative movement in america all of this , has america all of this, has strengthened trump's position significantly. i guess the really big question and, maybe it's too early for us to speculate. but what do you think, monica does to those kind of floating voters in the middle, those who haven't got a particularly strong democrat or republican leaning ? does the republican leaning? does the sites of him going into that courthouse in manhattan, does it help him as a potential presidential candidate or does it hinder him ? well, i think it hinder him? well, i think donald trump's enemies, nigel, have been so relentless for so and have stretched the law , and have stretched the law, warps the constitution all in the service of trying to nail the service of trying to nail the white whale of donald trump. you know, this captain ahab whales . i you know, this captain ahab whales. i think that they you know, this captain ahab whales . i think that they have whales. i think that they have so jumped the shark and, so damaged our system and our country that those fair minded

people in the middle are looking at all of this and they are completely appalled. they may not even like donald trump, but they realise that this is a seminal moment for the american justice system . it's a seminal justice system. it's a seminal moment for the united . and moment for the united. and they're saying, wait a minute, you know, you guys can't him at the ballot box, so you're going to try to put him in prison. the ballot box, so you're going to try to put him in prison . are to try to put him in prison. are you serious? i don't like donald trump all that much . i do like trump all that much. i do like what he did for the country. i may not like him in his mean tweets, but i'll tell you one thing. i love my country and i am not going to stand for this. you know what, nigel? i honestly believe that his enemies have the near impossible , which is the near impossible, which is turn donald trump into a sympathetic figure . and while sympathetic figure. and while we're focussed today , the legal we're focussed today, the legal track, there is a political track. and i think all of this politically is going to redound to his benefit . thank politically is going to redound to his benefit. thank you very indeed for joining to his benefit. thank you very indeed forjoining us today to his benefit. thank you very indeed for joining us today on this big, big day. thank you.

well, a very clear opinion there. let's go back to darren mccaffrey. who's outside trump tower in manhattan now. i thought the pictures we saw a few minutes ago were him leaving the courtroom, but apparently not, apparently charges are now being read out. darren, bring us up to speed . yes, indeed. nigel up to speed. yes, indeed. nigel those pictures you saw a couple of minutes ago were donald trump going into the courtroom, looking pretty calm. it must be said, pretty expressionless, going into the courtroom in manhattan criminal court here in new york. now, i said earlier, roland, that they're going to be no cameras in the courtroom. i was slightly wrong in that. no video cameras, but they're all and in fact, some of those have been released of him sitting down surrounded by his legal team. he is now having those charges read out to him in that courtroom . and charges read out to him in that courtroom .and i suspect we'll courtroom. and i suspect we'll get the details within next couple of minutes. he didn't speak to reporters, though, when there were suggestions he would

do so on the into that do so on the way into that courtroom, say courtroom, he decided not to say anything. at all. but this is going to be very, very brief indeed. he's going to plead not guilty to those charges and then he's to effectively. nigel he's going to effectively. nigel and i'm told that his motorcade is already outside that courtroom ready to whisk away when this all but that extraordinary moment, when this all but that extraordinary moment , though, extraordinary moment, though, that extraordinary pictures of former us president in a courtroom now charged with a criminal offence under arrest here in the united states in his home city. you know, donald trump is a new yorker. i think sometimes we forget that in his own quite an extraordinary woman. we finally have woman. and we will finally have been speculating for days and days days about what he's days and days about what he's actually charged actually going to be charged with. to get those with. we're going to get those details in next couple of minutes . details in next couple of minutes. darren, details in next couple of minutes . darren, stay with us. minutes. darren, stay with us. stay with us. but for now, i'm very pleased to be joined by dershowitz now out of a life long, life long democrat voter,

one of the most famous criminal lawyers in the usa, and indeed harvard law professor emeritus alan. good afternoon to you . you alan. good afternoon to you. you . too i you know we always think of america , you know, the land of america, you know, the land of america, you know, the land of the free. a country that took best bits from us. from magna carta and everything else . built carta and everything else. built it developed . it became the it developed. it became the global superpower , but certainly global superpower, but certainly a place that we may have viewed as being more litigious, perhaps , than our country. but i've never doubted before that it was free and fair. and ask you, is it donald trump trial or is it now american judicial system ? now american judicial system? the american judicial system? the american judicial system? the american judicial system? the american constitutional , the the american constitutional, the american media system ? the american media system? the united states is on trial and we are failing badly. badly. first time in my 60 year experi ence

as , a criminal defence lawyer, as, a criminal defence lawyer, professor at harvard that i've ever seen following combination of fact , a democrat runs for of fact, a democrat runs for attorney. his pledge to get trump. i wrote book get trump based on his campaign pledge . he based on his campaign pledge. he promises to get trump. so that trump can't beat the head of his party, just become just a moment out of the mike. stop for a moment. stop it for a minute. just to say we've had it confirmed that donald trump has pleaded not guilty. no surprise . sorry. alan, back to you know, first time in history this has ever happened . men from one ever happened. men from one party prosecutes a from another party prosecutes a from another party claiming get him and if he's going to do that, he better have the strongest possible case. now, we haven't seen the indictment, but it's unlike likely that the indictment is anything that would ever have been directed against anybody other than donald trump . from other than donald trump. from everything i know now , this is everything i know now, this is the weakest case i've seen in 60 years. it may get we may get

better evidence, but i haven't seen it. the main witness against him is a man with a long record of lying and this is an extraordinary extraordinary example of justice that's not blind . and, you know, the bible blind. and, you know, the bible says to judges do not recognise faces the blindfold over the eyes of a justice is all being violated. this a case where a decision was made to go after this man in whatever way they possibly can. let's look for crime and they look for crimes. and they couldn't find any. so they made a misdemeanour. then they made a misdemeanour. then they stapled it to a federal felony. now again , in a few felony. now again, in a few minutes, we'll know. the indictment is it would greatly surprise me if? indictment is it would greatly surprise me if ? they have a surprise me if? they have a very, very strong case, a case that warrants the elevator fast past . president of future hotel past. president of future hotel president and a man who i have the right to vote against for the right to vote against for the third time. but he be allowed to run without

interference by a local district based on a very, very weak . case based on a very, very weak. case so i don't know what has go wrong with that policy, but democrats that you've spent your aduu democrats that you've spent your adult life voting for what is what is their thinking? is just is it just a loathing of donald as a person? or have they perhaps have some of them forgotten the great democratic principles upon which america was founded? i think i think donald trump is the poster child for what has come to be called trump derangement . for what has come to be called trump derangement. i for what has come to be called trump derangement . i have trump derangement. i have friends profess lawyers, judges of former congressman who are rational people, but it comes to talking about trump . it's like talking about trump. it's like talking about trump. it's like talking about trump. it's like talking about adolf hitler. i mean, they totally cancelled me because . i once defended him in because. i once defended him in front of the united states senate, prominent constitution charge, and they refused to have anything do with me. imagine what would happen . a judge

what would happen. a judge rendered decision in favour of trump. he would ever be reappointed elected. we do have trump derangement syndrome when people mention the word trump, they stop thinking . they just they stop thinking. they just turn on a different way of process things. and this is has a great danger of destroying our legal system. the first paragraph in my book, i say essentially, look, even for those of you who think that electing trump would be a danger to america , it's a far better to america, it's a far better path . far it's a far greater path. far it's a far greater danger to destroy our constant tution and the process of trying to prevent trump from being elected. i don't think trump's going to get elected. i think he's going to lose to biden. but let the voters decide that let's not distort our legal system forever and ever over. one person. and that's what i fear . person. and that's what i fear. and alan, is there any prospect of this coming back together the way that it should be, or do you fear this could get much worse before it gets better? i know it

will get worse because the judge have the urge to move this case to different part of the city, doesn't have the courage to dismiss the statue violations on statue to limitations. this is a case that any first year student should be able to win if the name of the defendant warren trump and the location weren't manhattan but it's the deck is stacked it is no way that donald trump can win a case in manhattan based on even the weakest testimony and the weakest testimony and the weakest law. so i think it's going to get . ultimately, the going to get. ultimately, the supreme court will throw out this case, but by that time, they'll be an election. and this is really election interference by local district attorney who on the promise to trump then decided not to get because the evidence was so weak. but then the new york times that pushback was so great and the pressures were so great, and the hatred

directed against him was so great, essentially couldn't resist it. and so gave in to the power . and this is mob injustice power. and this is mob injustice , not this extraordinary . alan , not this extraordinary. alan dershowitz, thank you very much indeed for joining dershowitz, thank you very much indeed forjoining us this indeed for joining us this evening here in london. thank you . so we now know that it's 34 you. so we now know that it's 34 counts and it is basically all business accounting. it's the way things have been mis accounted for according to the charges. well me is susan platt chief of staff to joe biden and someone who's been on this program before. susan, you might have just heard alan dershowitz there. i mean, this is so it's so political . it's so aimed at so political. it's so aimed at this man yet again , all new. do this man yet again, all new. do you think the democrats are in danger of actually tipping the neutrals in trump's favour? i didn't hear alan dershowitz and have to respectfully disagree

because i haven't read the charges. no one that i know of has read the charges except those in the courtroom right now . and they probably haven't finished reading them. he . and they probably haven't finissay reading them. he . and they probably haven't finissay thatiing them. he . and they probably haven't finissay that there |em. he . and they probably haven't finissay that there is n. he . and they probably haven't finissay that there is nothingie can say that there is nothing there is just making it up. it's just taking it out of whole cloth . we had they had 12 people cloth. we had they had 12 people in the grand jury believe there was enough evidence to indict on 34 counts. that's not the democrats. that's 34 ordinary people . and the problem. look, people. and the problem. look, i'm not happy any of this. i think just makes us look horrible. but there is no one to blame for this. but donald trump. donald trump said he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and they wouldn't do anything to him. he has courted and said, come and get me . you and said, come and get me. you know, it's like the chickens are coming to roost, donald. there are more that are about i'm sure that you got to federal counts. you got one in georgia. you've got another one in new york state . who knows? but this guy

state. who knows? but this guy has been you know, there's an old saying about karma and he may be dealing with his karma. finally and unfortunately , finally and unfortunately, putting us all in the middle of this chaos. susan, i don't think for at all to be gone . does the for at all to be gone. does the american die for all this ? does american die for all this? does the american apply fairly? you know , let's face it. let's face know, let's face it. let's face it . bill clinton lied under oath it. bill clinton lied under oath . we then got hillary was impeached and he lost his his his full legal practise is legal practise for ten years. but he didn't try to bribe anybody. he didn't try to bribe anybody. he didn't try to pay anybody off . didn't try to pay anybody off. and remember how hard the republicans went after him for having an affair ? well, what the having an affair? well, what the heckis having an affair? well, what the heck is donald trump ? but he's heck is donald trump? but he's trying to be comfortable with it. and it's always the worst when it comes to campaign accounting. when it comes to campaign accounting, you and i both know that with barrack,

there was some very serious mis accounting. exactly same with him. i do not know a lot about accounting . well, was a fine . accounting. well, was a fine. was the fine the. fine to the obama campaign. was the fine the. fine to the obama campaign . was $375,000 for obama campaign. was $375,000 for mis accounting . we know that mis accounting. we know that hillary clinton's campaign put in false accounts. it happened to bob dole. these things . but to bob dole. these things. but when they happen there's a lot. what is donald trump more caps falsifying . business records 34 falsifying. business records 34 caps not one not one mistake not two. but it's all that's all. remember here. this is probably the least of all charges that may come down the pike. are plenty of other shoes that may drop. and i really feel that i'm embarrassed for our. i'd like this man to be gone. i'd like to us over. i'd like to never talk

to about him again. i'd like to on as a country. but apparently he's going to have to have his day in court. we'll see what happens. day in court. we'll see what happens . all right. final happens. all right. final thought then on this, susan , are thought then on this, susan, are you telling me you believe the american judicial system is with due process and in a proper neutral manner ? as far as i know neutral manner? as far as i know , yes, they are. it's the process is doing exactly what it's supposed to be. and mr. trump can defend himself in court. and if they find him not so be it. but this is our system. this has been our system for 200 and some years. and works. and it's time we. let this process play out. see what happens. and you can defend himself in court. okay. susan platt, as ever you for coming on this show. well, susan platt and hey, you know what? as you hear all points of view on this

program and indeed on this channel. let's get back to manhattan. let's get back to political editor darren mccaffrey. so, darren, we've learned a little bit more since we last spoke . yeah, indeed. we we last spoke. yeah, indeed. we now know that it is 34 charges, as you were just saying there from your computer at or crimes essentially that don't donald trump has been charged with 34 in the indictment. now we do know the precise details. we know the precise details. we know what trump business what we don't have got the precise details. get those details. we should get those immediately . would have immediately. i would have thought, nigel. and unsurprisingly, trump unsurprisingly, donald trump in that has pleaded not that courtroom has pleaded not guilty , not guilty to all those guilty, not guilty to all those he firmly denied this. we know that his legal team say he's prepared to battle this and to exonerate himself. but donald trump pictured in courtroom 15 of the manhattan criminal court , the first former or current president ever to be indicted on a criminal offence. he was under arrest as he sat in that courtroom looking pretty glum.

it must be said from the still photographs that we saw produced , he will not be placed on bail . he will leave that courthouse the next couple of minutes and travel to florida. we will actually hear what he's got to say when he addresses his supporters at mar a lago a little later. but that breaking news in the last couple of minutes that trump has been indicted on 34 felony counts, including falsifying business records . he's pleaded not guilty records. he's pleaded not guilty and extraordinary image and an historic day here in the united states, not and it was to women that these payments were made to. so basically, daryn the story is that the trump organisation made payments and what the charges are saying is that it's false business, accounting and also that money should have appeared as a campaign donation . would that campaign donation. would that sum up the case . against yeah, sum up the case. against yeah, essentially . it is not illegal

essentially. it is not illegal to pay hush money. a nondisclosure agreement to anyone in the united states . and anyone in the united states. and michael cohen, his former lawyer , has alleged that is precisely what he did on donald trump's behalf during the 2016 election. what is illegal is that it was improperly record that that's the allegation that it was not declared properly as an election expense and that is what the state new york is trying to pin on donald trump. it must be said this is really complicated and it is not legally straightforward because what they're trying to do is in some ways state law here in new york and what be federal and what might be a federal election in the critical text, there are lots of lawyers who say in the grand scheme of things, this isn't a great misdemeanour by president trump. you've kind of to put it into context before where there's lots of problems mistakes lots of problems and mistakes and election and issues with election financing. in the past. many would say the bigger problem for donald potentially other donald trump, potentially other court line , not court cases down the line, not least in georgia , but

least of all, in georgia, but we've ended up where we all many argue this is a political campaign by spearheaded by a democratic elected district attorney here in new york . he attorney here in new york. he was elected as a democrat. many would say, on the basis of trying to indict president trump. new york state clearly they've got enough evidence . is they've got enough evidence. is this the greatest crime in world? i think even his worst opponents would not that there could be far more serious crimes down the track. but what it has doneisit down the track. but what it has done is it has meant that donald trump has ended up in a courtroom today under arrest. he didn't very happy about. it courtroom today under arrest. he dknow very happy about. it courtroom today under arrest. he dknow he'svery happy about. it courtroom today under arrest. he dknow he's been1appy about. it courtroom today under arrest. he dknow he's been very' about. it courtroom today under arrest. he dknow he's been very defiant it i know he's been very defiant on. media. he's branded on. social media. he's branded this hunt. it has in this a witch hunt. it has in some ways politically quite help helped least all helped him, not least of all among republican supporters. but you imagine , nigel, you you could imagine, nigel, you know him for better than . many know him for better than. many people do . it will not be in a people do. it will not be in a happy place. i think for him to sit in a courtroom in his own city as new yorker charged city as a new yorker charged with a criminal offence. absolutely. darren thank you. and dara is absolutely right. i tell you something. i mean,

whatever see, know, whatever you see, you know, trump and this ebullient trump and he's this ebullient person. is still a human person. he is still a human being . i've seen person. he is still a human being. i've seen him in that oval under the most oval office under the most extraordinary and extraordinary pressure. and global these global leaders go these pressures, but none more so than donald trump. jacob extraordinary. i mean, i we often question judgements. we often question judgements. we often question judgements. we often question some of the things that happen in our country. we probably think of some of us that the judiciary are a little bit of sort of metropolitan elite, but we don't openly overtly question the leaders reality of our system. america's got a real problem here. no, i agree with that. and you see this from the supreme downwards that they have clear political opinions and. this prosecutor is elected as a democrat . this is a party democrat. this is a party political use of the judicial system . and that is not fair. system. and that is not fair. no, no, no. well, jacob , know no, no, no. well, jacob, know you're going to talk about this and you'll also, of course, talk about the passing of the late lord lawson. it reminds us of the the conservative party the days the conservative party stood for low taxes. enterprise yes, small business,

entrepreneurship. it used be wonderful. jacob was harry. why? it's not anymore. or maybe not. let's go now to bethany elsey. let's go now to bethany elsey. let's get a news update on what's happening in new york.