sidekick, webb. is my sidekick, emma webb. what's that? emma what's your take on that? emma i think all sorts of some of think by all sorts of some of them are unchristian, some of them are unchristian, some of them anti—christian them are unchristian, some of them nemesis anti—christian them are unchristian, some of them nemesis anti—ciarronn and my nemesis today is arron armstrong captain owen brand, thank be thank you for that. we'll be back with dual back after the news with a dual . good evening . it's just gone . good evening. it's just gone mo.— . good evening. it's just gone mo. rm— . good evening. it's just gone 7:00. i'm bethany— c: " g it's just gone 7:00. i'm bethany elsey with 7:oo. i'm bethany elsey with your— 7:oo. i'm bethany elsey with your top— 7:oo. i'm bethany elsey with your top stories— 7:00. i'm bethany elsey with your top stories from the gb newsroom. i'm— your top stories from the gb newsroom. i'm a— your top stories from the gb newsroom. i'm a 12 year old boy uccuccu— newsroom. i'm a 12 year old boy cccuccu cf— newsroom. i'm a 12 year old boy accused of murdering a grandmother- accused of murdering a grandmother in sheffield has been— grandmother in sheffield has been remanded— grandmother in sheffield has been remanded into secure accommodation. 60 year old mucu— accommodation. 60 year old marcia grant— accommodation. 60 year old marcia grant was— accommodation. 60 year old marcia grant was hit by her own car marcia grant was hit by her own cucuuc— marcia grant was hit by her own car outside her— marcia grant was hit by her own car outside her home in green um— car outside her home in green um cu— car outside her home in green hill on wednesday. the family ccccuccu— hill on wednesday. the family released a— hill on wednesday. the family released a statement describing her released a statement describing ucc cc— released a statement describing ucc cc c— released a statement describing her as a warm and— released a statement describing her as a warm and loving character— her as a warm and loving character and— her as a warm and loving character and a- her as a warm and loving character and a pillar of the community.— character and a pillar of the community. the— character and a pillar of the community. the boy who can't be identifica— community. the boy who can't be identified due— community. the boy who can't be identified due to— community. the boy who can't be identified due to his age is due before— identified due to his age is due before sheffield— identified due to his age is due before sheffield youth court again— before sheffield youth court again tomorrow— before sheffield youth court again tomorrow . nicola sturgeon again tomorrow. nicola sturgeon has spoken— again tomorrow. nicola sturgeon has spoken cuc— again tomorrow. nicola sturgeon has spoken out for— again tomorrow. nicola sturgeon has spoken out for the first time— has spoken out for the first time unce— has spoken out for the first time since her— has spoken out for the first time since her husband was arrested— time since her husband was arrested ,— time since her husband was arrested , saying— time since her husband was arrested , saying she has not arrested, saying she has not been— arrested, saying she has not been questioned by police. former— been questioned by police. rorrrccr sur— been questioned by police. former snp chief executive peter mucou— former snp chief executive peter murrcu woo— former snp chief executive peter murrell was taken— former snp chief executive peter murrell was taken into custody on murrell was taken into custody or wednesday— murrell was taken into custody on wednesday as— murrell was taken into custody on wednesday as part of a police

rrcvcccroocrorc— on wednesday as part of a police investigation into— on wednesday as part of a police investigation into the party's cruorcccc— investigation into the party's cruorcccc .— investigation into the party's finances . he— investigation into the party's finances . he was later released finances. he was later released urcrcouc— finances. he was later released without charge— finances. he was later released without charge ._ finances. he was later released without charge . the former first without charge. the former first microor— without charge. the former first minister coro— without charge. the former first minister said she— without charge. the former first minister said she intends to get on minister said she intends to get or urch— minister said she intends to get or our hor— minister said she intends to get on with her life— minister said she intends to get on with her life and with her for. — on with her life and with her job. much— on with her life and with her job. much as— on with her life and with her job. much as there- on with her life and with her job. muff.“ ”iii: 311i: on with her life and with her job. irirt. gt: on with her life and with her job. sit gt: job. much as there are things i might want to see, i am not able to do so other than to say that, as has been the case, there will continue to be full cooperation . in the last few days. have been obviously difficult , . in the last few days. have been obviously difficult, quite traumatic at times. but understand that is part of a process. the understand that is part of a process . the nhs confederation process. the nhs confederation is process. the nhs confederation rc warring— process. the nhs confederation is warning o— process. the nhs confederation is warning a quarter— t the nhs confederation is warning a quarter of a mirror— is warning a quarter of a million appointments could be pocrporcco— million appointments could be pocrporcco ouc— million appointments could be postponed due to— million appointments could be postponed due to a four day stucc— postponed due to a four day ccrrkc oy— postponed due to a four day strike by junior— postponed due to a four day strike by junior doctors next crock.— strike by junior doctors next week. medics— strike by junior doctors next week. medics in— strike by junior doctors next week. medics in england will work— week. medics in england will work our— week. medics in england will walk out immediately after the rocccr— walk out immediately after the rocccr cork— walk out immediately after the easter bank holiday weekend in an easter bank holiday weekend in or ongoing— easter bank holiday weekend in an ongoing dispute over pay . the an ongoing dispute over pay. the ocoorcrccrcc— an ongoing dispute over pay. the ocporcrrccrcc oc— an ongoing dispute over pay. the department of health and social coro— department of health and social care morocc— department of health and social care insists the— department of health and social care insists the action must be caucu— care insists the action must be cured occ— care insists the action must be called off before— care insists the action must be called off before any negotiated occrorcc— called off before any negotiated occrorcc corr— called off before any negotiated actions can take— called off before any negotiated actions can take place . more actions can take place. more crou— actions can take place. more crcorc coo— actions can take place. more than 850 community and charity representatives— than 850 community and charity representatives from across the

courccry— representatives from across the courccry rove— representatives from across the country have been— representatives from across the country have been invited to the kinds— country have been invited to the king's coronation— country have been invited to the king's coronation on the 6th of mav- — king's coronation on the 6th of mav- croo— king's coronation on the 6th of may. 450 recipient of the burrou— may. 450 recipient of the british empire— may. 450 recipient of the british empire medal have been accor— british empire medal have been asked co— british empire medal have been asked to attend— british empire medal have been asked to attend the service at rccccrcrrccccr— asked to attend the service at westminster abbey. meanwhile, croo— westminster abbey. meanwhile, croo young— westminster abbey. meanwhile, 400 young people will watch from sourc— 400 young people will watch from saint margaret's— 400 young people will watch from saint margaret's church. marine couscoorc— saint margaret's church. marine constable dawn— saint margaret's church. marine constable dawn wood from essex conco— constable dawn wood from essex roucc coro— constable dawn wood from essex roucc coco uc— constable dawn wood from essex police told us she— constable dawn wood from essex police told us she received her rrcvrcocrorc— police told us she received her rrcvrcocrorc oy— police told us she received her invitation by email, initially opened— invitation by email, initially opcrcco rc— invitation by email, initially opened it thought , who on earth opened it thought, who on earth is opened it thought, who on earth cc playing— opened it thought, who on earth cc proyrrrg o— opened it thought, who on earth cc proyrrrg o joke— opened it thought, who on earth is playing a joke on me ? i is playing a joke on me? this is going— is playing a joke on me? this is gorrg co— is playing a joke on me? this is gorrg to bo— is playing a joke on me? this is gorrg co co rur— is playing a joke on me? this is going to be i'm going to find out. i'm going to turn up to the palace. and i wasn't really supposed there. yeah, supposed to be there. but yeah, i've made a few phone calls since and yeah, so excited . since and yeah, so excited. absolutely. just can't believe that i've been been selected and what an honour. and the comedian corccrc— what an honour. and the comedian gareth richards— what an honour. and the comedian gareth richards has— what an honour. and the comedian gareth richards has died- a" ” and the comedian gareth richards has died after being— gareth richards has died after being involved— gareth richards has died after being involved in a car crash cocc— being involved in a car crash rocc crouch.— being involved in a car crash last month. the— being involved in a car crash last month. the 41 year old was the last month. the 41 year old was crcc former— last month. the 41 year old was the former radio— last month. the 41 year old was the former radio co—host of crouc— the former radio co—host of frank skinner. _ the former radio co—host of frank skinner. he suffered serious brain— frank skinner. he suffered serious brain injuries in the occrocrcc— serious brain injuries in the accident occu— serious brain injuries in the accident and passed away yesterday— accident and passed away yesterday evening. comedian jason— yesterday evening. comedian jason manford_ yesterday evening. comedian jason manford has paid tribute, occcrrorug— jason manford has paid tribute, describing him _

jason manford has paid tribute, describing him as— jason manford has paid tribute, describing him as a wonderfully rrcvcrccrvc— describing him as a wonderfully inventive and— describing him as a wonderfully inventive and funny comedian. ouc— inventive and funny comedian. our more— inventive and funny comedian. but more importantly , a kind and but more importantly, a kind and crouorcccur— but more importantly, a kind and thoughtful man— but more importantly, a kind and thoughtful man ._ but more importantly, a kind and thoughtful man . you're up to thoughtful man. you're up to core— thoughtful man. you're up to core or— thoughtful man. you're up to core on w,— thoughtful man. you're up to date on tv, online dab+ radio, occu— date on tv, online dab+ radio, and or— date on tv, online dab+ radio, and on tuneln_ date on tv, online dab+ radio, and on tunein ._ date on tv, online dab+ radio, and on tunein . this is. and on tunein. this is. gb news. i and on tunein. this is. gb news. l . apologise— and on tunein. this is. gb news. i . apologise for— and on tunein. this is. gb news. - i apologise for the- i apologise for the double whammy hope whammy of me today, but i hope you easter special you enjoyed the easter special yesterday i went yesterday after church i went down trafalgar square to down to trafalgar square to watch performance of the watch a live performance of the passion hosted by the passion of jesus hosted by the wintershall we had on wintershall estate. we had on the show week. it was an the show last week. it was an amazing day. it really was to share the commemoration of share in the commemoration of good friday with tens of thousands christians in thousands of other christians in the middle of london. we love to see it. i didn't, however , spot see it. i didn't, however, spot mayor khan . nelson's mayor sadiq khan. nelson's column wasn't up with column wasn't lit up with christian symbols, and there were no easter lights at piccadilly circus , and the

piccadilly circus, and the fourth plinth was still of that murderous anti—white revolutionist . so the revolutionist. so the surroundings were far from perfect. but we should celebrate whatever wins can these days whatever wins we can these days , and seeing able to , and seeing people able to publicly demonstrate their witness christ was witness for christ was significant, especially during the paschal triduum on maundy thursday, we saw christ prepare us for his temporary departure as he washed the feet of his apostles and ate the last suppen apostles and ate the last supper, instituting both sacraments of the priesthood and the eucharist and good friday, we saw his death on the cross for our sins. today, of course , for our sins. today, of course, is holy saturday or easter. even when we wait for his return whilst he descends into hell to free the lost souls, opening the gates of heaven to them and to us. if we repent and believe. tomorrow is the holiest of holy days for christians is when we celebrate his resurrection for our salvation. the day he demonstrated to the world that he is not just truly god, but also truly man. so instead of a political monologue today, i'd like to invite you to join me in

the lord's prayer . in whatever the lord's prayer. in whatever language naturally to you. language comes naturally to you. our father, which art in heaven , hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. amen . forever and ever. amen. welcome again to this easter weekend edition of the common—sense crusade . easter is, common—sense crusade. easter is, of course, a commemoration of christ's resurrection. and i say, of course , but i wonder how say, of course, but i wonder how many people will be considering the meaning of easter. this weekend. attendance at easter church services had dropped by 66% in just a decade , and only 66% in just a decade, and only 46.2% of people in england and

wales identify as christian. these days . britain wales identify as christian. these days. britain is no longer a majority christian nation and the impact is felt when, as happened this week at oxford, a college reportedly cancelled its annual saint george's day dinner in favour of an islamic iftar. that despite a maudling college spokesman saying all major christian festivals are celebrated . that all brings us celebrated. that all brings us to this week's duel. and to debate this topic, i'm joined by my duellists, my sidekick emma webb, and this week's nemesis founder of novara media, aaron bastani . emma has christian bastani. emma has christian culture been de—christianized ? culture been de—christianized? i think so. and i think there's comccrurcg— i think so. and i think there's corrccrcrrcg very— i think so. and i think there's something very telling in that ouocc— something very telling in that ouocc croc— something very telling in that quorc choc you— something very telling in that quote that you read out quote that you just read out choro— quote that you just read out. chore—corrode, there from magdalen college, curricu— there from magdalen college, which-choc— there from magdalen college, which -that they- which is that that they celebrate _ which is that that they celebrate every major, major currccrorc— celebrate every major, major christian festival, implying croc— christian festival, implying that scurr— christian festival, implying that saint george's day is not a major— that saint george's day is not a major or important— that saint george's day is not a major or important christian footwor— major or important christian festival that's— major or important christian festival that's worth celebrating. i think all you rove— celebrating. i think all you have co— celebrating. i think all you have o oo— celebrating. i think all you have to do is— celebrating. i think all you have to do is take one quick rook.— have to do is take one quick rook. ._ have to do is take one quick rook. . moor— have to do is take one quick look. i mean, this is speaking of rho— look. i mean, this is speaking of the church _ look. i mean, this is speaking of the church of— look. i mean, this is speaking of the church of england, not of the of the church of england, not of do morocco— of the church of england, not of do majority of— of the church of england, not of the majority of anglicans or cuc— the majority of anglicans or even the majority of catholics or protestants— even the majority of catholics or protestants otherwise , but

or protestants or otherwise, but the or protestants or otherwise, but crcc crcurcrc — or protestants or otherwise, but crcc church or— or protestants or otherwise, but the church of england in pourcuror. — the church of england in particular. i— the church of england in particular. i think has become de—christianized._ de—christianized. you just have to de—christianized. you just have co-orcc— de—christianized. you just have co-orcc quick— de—christianized. you just have to-one quick scroll- de—christianized. you just have to one quick scroll through to take one quick scroll through cherr— to take one quick scroll through their website— to take one quick scroll through their website and _ to take one quick scroll through their website and you can see croc— their website and you can see that-absolute— their website and you can see that absolute shrouded with that it's absolute shrouded with corporate— that it's absolute shrouded with corporate - rather- that it's absolute shrouded with corporate rather than corporate speak rather than traditional— corporate speak rather than traditional christian language. chore-c— traditional christian language. rucrc-c orc— traditional christian language. there's an abandoned of traditional— there's an abandoned of traditional doctrine in and occuouy— traditional doctrine in and occuouy ._ traditional doctrine in and actually i think an attitude you-o— actually i think an attitude you-o orrrocc— actually i think an attitude you'd almost of sort of cringing cowards— you'd almost of sort of cringing coworoc o— you'd almost of sort of cringing coworoc o roc— you'd almost of sort of cringing towards a lot of— you'd almost of sort of cringing towards a lot of the traditions of rho — towards a lot of the traditions of the church. _ towards a lot of the traditions of the church. and part of this, i of the church. and part of this, . chuck— of the church. and part of this, . chuck rc— of the church. and part of this, ccrcrrck rc you— of the church. and part of this, i think is, you know, the urrugrug— i think is, you know, the urrugrug ru— i think is, you know, the bringing in extraneous ideas from— bringing in extraneous ideas from outside— bringing in extraneous ideas from outside of— bringing in extraneous ideas from outside of christianity . from outside of christianity. vou— from outside of christianity. you coo— from outside of christianity. you rc— from outside of christianity. you see it within theology. rco-ro— you see it within theology. we're bringing— you see it within theology. we're bringing in critical race moori— we're bringing in critical race ruoory, ocrcor— we're bringing in critical race theory, other progressive rooorogroo— theory, other progressive ideologies ._ theory, other progressive ideologies. but there's an awful lot ideologies. but there's an awful or going— ideologies. but there's an awful cor gorrcg orc— ideologies. but there's an awful cor gorrcg ouc— ideologies. but there's an awful lot going on. but i— ideologies. but there's an awful lot going on. but i think occuouy— lot going on. but i think actually the— lot going on. but i think actually the reason why we're cooruo— actually the reason why we're coorrcg cruc— actually the reason why we're seeing this decline in christian rcurrcoroo— seeing this decline in christian rcurrcoroo ro— seeing this decline in christian numbers is because people don't worr— numbers is because people don't worrc co— numbers is because people don't want to attend— numbers is because people don't want to attend church services choc— want to attend church services that ororc-c— want to attend church services that aren't meaningful. where you— that aren't meaningful. where you coor— that aren't meaningful. where you for croc— that aren't meaningful. where you feel that the— that aren't meaningful. where you feel that the clergy don't carry— you feel that the clergy don't roouy crury— you feel that the clergy don't really truly believe in the ooopoi— really truly believe in the goopor. cc— really truly believe in the gospel. if people are attracted to christianity,— gospel. if people are attracted to christianity, it's because crcoy-ro— to christianity, it's because they're attracted to the truth. arro— they're attracted to the truth. arco ._ they're attracted to the truth. arco . chuck— they're attracted to the truth. and i think that— they're attracted to the truth. and i think that this sort of crrrrgrrcg— and i think that this sort of crrrrgrrcg cocc— and i think that this sort of cringing self deprecating occrcuoo— cringing self deprecating attitude -the - cringing self deprecating attitude the church has

attitude that the church has cocon— attitude that the church has cokorc-oo— attitude that the church has taken-as well- attitude that the church has taken as well as a sort of taken on, as well as a sort of rock— taken on, as well as a sort of rock-ru— taken on, as well as a sort of rock-in ico- taken on, as well as a sort of lack-in its own- taken on, as well as a sort of lack in its own ideas lack of belief in its own ideas arro— lack of belief in its own ideas and coking— lack of belief in its own ideas and coking orc— lack of belief in its own ideas and taking on all— lack of belief in its own ideas and taking on all of these oxcorrcor— and taking on all of these oxcorrcor ,— and taking on all of these external , predominantly secular external, predominantly secular roooo— external, predominantly secular roooo ,— external, predominantly secular roooo , or— external, predominantly secular roooooryou— external, predominantly secular ideas , or you might say some new ideas, or you might say some new rougrouo— ideas, or you might say some new rougrouo roooo— ideas, or you might say some new rougrouo roooo ,— ideas, or you might say some new religious ideas , as— ideas, or you might say some new religious ideas , as i— ideas, or you might say some new religious ideas , as i think that religious ideas, as i think that croc— religious ideas, as i think that that ro— religious ideas, as i think that crcoc ro porc— religious ideas, as i think that choc co porc oc— religious ideas, as i think that that is part of the problem and croc— that is part of the problem and that ro— that is part of the problem and that is contributing to the oocurco. — that is contributing to the oocurco. a— that is contributing to the decline. a lot— that is contributing to the decline. a lot to break down, though- — decline. a lot to break down, crouch. cc— decline. a lot to break down, though. it sounds- decline. a lot to break down, though. e r:3 e though. it sounds like emma thinks it's doctrine, it's theological. it's also community. and the language that's being used. what do you what do say, aaron, is what do you say, aaron, is christianity being de—christianized ? i think de—christianized? ithink there's lot de—christianized? ithink there'sllot there. - r:ri ti“ ithink there's lot there. mean, de—christianized? ithink. there'sllot there. imean, a there's a lot there. i mean, a cow— there's a lot there. i mean, a row ooporoco— there's a lot there. i mean, a few separate points, which occurs— perhaps you guys wouldn't rcocooooruy— perhaps you guys wouldn't necessarily_.. perhaps you guys wouldn'ti necessarily_. the necessarily agree with. the croc— necessarily agree with. the first ro— necessarily agree with. the first is.live _ necessarily agree with. the first is.live in- necessarily agree with. the first is.live in a- necessarily agree with. the first is live in a capitalist first is we live in a capitalist oocrocy— first is we live in a capitalist cocrocy ,— first is we live in a capitalist cocrory , arro— first is we live in a capitalist society , and whether not society, and whether or not your— society, and whether or not you o— society, and whether or not you o corr— society, and whether or not you're a fan of— society, and whether or not you're a fan of that, there's a oorrflorcorc— you're a fan of that, there's a gentleman called— you're a fan of that, there's a gentleman called karl marx who you're a fan of that, there's a gentsomei called karl marx who you're a fan of that, there's a gent some very.ed karl marx who you're a fan of that, there's a gent some very importantarx who had some very important rrcorgrcco. — had some very important rrrorgrrro. a— had some very important insights. a strong word there. vouc— insights. a strong word there. on wed,— insights. a strong word there. yeah well, you— insights. a strong word there. yeah well, you know, it's you know,— yeah well, you know, it's you know, too — yeah well, you know, it's you know, those are— yeah well, you know, it's you know, those are my words, not you — know, those are my words, not you mucou— know, those are my words, not yours.-know, about- know, those are my words, not yours. know, about 170 years know, those are my words, not yourrhe know, about 170 years know, those are my words, not yourrhe wrote )w, about 170 years know, those are my words, not yourrhe wrote a , about 170 years know, those are my words, not yourrhe wrote a bookit 170 years know, those are my words, not yourrhe wrote a book called'ears know, those are my words, not yourrhe wrote a book called the ago, he wrote a book called the corrcrrcuruoc— ago, he wrote a book called the communist manifesto. now, why am i communist manifesto. now, why am . cocking— communist manifesto. now, why am ccorkruo about— communist manifesto. now, why am i talking about that?— communist manifesto. now, why am i talking about that? from the porcpocrrvo— i talking about that? from the perspective there's i talking about that? from the perspecphrase, there's i talking about that? from the perspec phrase, says there's i talking about that? from the perspecphrase, says,iere's i talking about that? from the perspecphrase, says , all 's a great phrase, he says, all croc— a great phrase, he says, all choc-coty— a great phrase, he says, all thatlholy ro— a great phrase, he says, all that holy is profaned. all that is holy is profaned. all croc— that is holy is profaned. all that ro— that is holy is profaned. all that is solid— that is holy is profaned. all that is solid melts into air all croc— that is solid melts into air all that ro—

that is solid melts into air all that is sacred— that is solid melts into air all that is sacred is— that is solid melts into air all that is sacred is profaned. all croc— that is sacred is profaned. all that ro— that is sacred is profaned. all that is cocc— that is sacred is profaned. all that is sort of— that is sacred is profaned. all that is sort of melts into air. wrucrc— that is sort of melts into air. wrucrc ro— that is sort of melts into air. which is co— that is sort of melts into air. which is to say— that is sort of melts into air. which is to say that in a corridor— which is to say that in a capitalist system, everything oocorrcoo— capitalist system, everything oocomoo—cl capitalist system, everything. becomes—i think becomes for profit. and i think mocc— becomes for profit. and i think rrcooc oc— becomes for profit. and i think rrcooc or your— becomes for profit. and i think most of your viewers will understand— most of your viewers will understand that this idea of subordination,— understand that this idea of subordination, everything subordination, of everything choc— subordination, of everything chocwo— subordination, of everything that we really— subordination, of everything that we really becoming that we really value becoming ooouc— that we really value becoming ooouc profic— that we really value becoming about profit and— that we really value becoming about profit and about marketing and about profit and about marketing orcr-pubic— about profit and about marketing and public relations and about public relations and about— and about public relations and about-business.— and about public relations and about business. so that's about big business. so that's croc— about big business. so that's no o— about big business. so that's no o crow— about big business. so that's not a new insight. it's a rorocrvory— not a new insight. it's a relatively old- not a new insight. it's a relatively old one. so i would say— relatively old one. so i would coy choc-o— relatively old one. so i would coy choc-oc— relatively old one. so i would say that's-of the- relatively old one. so i would say that's of the bigger say that's part of the bigger orccuro— say that's part of the bigger orccuro-ouc— say that's part of the biggeri picture-but-think picture here. but then i think oico— picture here. but then i think orco,-krcow,— picture here. but then i think also,-know, look,- picture here. but then i think also, know, look, my wife is also, you know, look, my wife is monoc— also, you know, look, my wife is maltese—southern. maltese. she's from southern ouropo— maltese. she's from southern ouropo-cuoooco- maltese. she's from southern europe-suppose a europe. and i suppose there's a orccororcco— europe. and i suppose there's a difference between difference here between catholicism _ difference here between catholicism and protestantism. but catholicism and protestantism. our choc— catholicism and protestantism. our choc rc— catholicism and protestantism. but that is country like here, but that is a country like here, which— but that is a country like here, which croc— but that is a country like here, which has adopted over time more cocuorr— which has adopted over time more secular mores . there have been secular mores. there have been crcorcooc— secular mores. there have been crcorcooc-roooroc- changes with regards to legislation— changes with regards to legislation ,_ changes with regards to legislation , abortion legislation, abortion and whocrcoc— legislation, abortion and wuocrcoc ,— legislation, abortion and whatnot , divorce. and yet at a whatnot, divorce. and yet at a commucrcy— whatnot, divorce. and yet at a community level,— whatnot, divorce. and yet at a community level, people still coco— community level, people still coco corru— community level, people still take saint stays— community level, people still take saint stays incredibly corroucry. — take saint stays incredibly seriously. young and old borrovor— seriously. young and old borrovor ,— seriously. young and old believer , non - seriously. young and old believer , non believer. although believer, non believer. although it's believer, non believer. although rr-c rrcporcorcc— believer, non believer. although it's important to— believer, non believer. although it's important to say that borrovorc— it's important to say that believers far— it's important to say that believers far more likely there choro— believers far more likely there crcorc rcoro. — believers far more likely there than here. this— believers far more likely there than here. this is— believers far more likely there than here. this is a very cocuorr— than here. this is a very secular country has been for a vory— secular country has been for a cory long— secular country has been for a cory long croco— secular country has been for a very long time. but it's interesting— very long time. but it's interesting that that community ocpocc— interesting that that community ocpocc-ccru— interesting that that community aspect-still plays- aspect of faith still plays a ruoo— aspect of faith still plays a huge particularly in huge role, particularly in soucrcorrc— huge role, particularly in southern europe. and it's rrccoroccrrco— southern europe. and it's interesting ,_ southern europe. and it's interesting , as- southern europe. and it's interesting , as we look interesting, as brits, we look at

interesting, as brits, we look oc coty— interesting, as brits, we look or ccory ,— interesting, as brits, we look or rrory , wo— interesting, as brits, we look at italy , we look— interesting, as brits, we look at italy , we look spain, we at italy, we look at spain, we rook— at italy, we look at spain, we look—wherever. at italy, we look at spain, we look—wherever .l at italy, we look at spain, we. look—wherever . isn't look at malta or wherever. isn't cruc— look at malta or wherever. isn't chic—urc- this charming? isn't this wonderful— this charming? isn't this wonderful ?_ this charming? isn't this wonderful ? we the this charming? isn't this wonderful ? we -the same wonderful? we had the exact same thing— wonderful? we had the exact same currco croco— wonderful? we had the exact same currco croro, ouc— wonderful? we had the exact same thing here, but we— wonderful? we had the exact same thing here, but we don't seem to voruo— thing here, but we don't seem to voruo rc— thing here, but we don't seem to voruo rc whoo— thing here, but we don't seem to value it when it's— thing here, but we don't seem to value it when it's at— thing here, but we don't seem to value it when it's at home. but ccuor-c— value it when it's at home. but ccuor-c cro— value it when it's at home. but what's the difference there? because they're all capitalist countries, too. no, it's a roouy— countries, too. no, it's a roouy ocoo— countries, too. no, it's a really good point.- t no, it's a really good point. think. really good point. i think. i crunc— really good point. i think. i think-catholic- really good point. i think. i think catholic faith i mean, think the catholic faith i mean, rook,— think the catholic faith i mean, coco-cric— think the catholic faith i mean, root-ins rc— think the catholic faith i mean, look,-this is a- think the catholic faith i mean, look,-this is a bit- look, there's this is a bit ooovo— look, there's this is a bit ooovo my— look, there's this is a bit above my station on a saturday. ruoro-c— above my station on a saturday. ruoro-c o— above my station on a saturday. there's a gentleman called max wooor— there's a gentleman called max wooor-crcoc— weber who said that protestantism was the was the porcocc— protestantism was the was the perfect religious— protestantism was the was the perfect religious faith to go horro— perfect religious faith to go rcorco rc— perfect religious faith to go hand in hand— perfect religious faith to go hand in hand rise of hand in hand with the rise of coprcoucm— hand in hand with the rise of capitalism after— hand in hand with the rise of capitalism after 16th capitalism after the 16th corccury.— capitalism after the 16th century-that. capitalism after the 16th. century.-that very century. but park that very cornuco— century. but park that very comprox. ._ century. but park that very complex. i think catholicism as a complex. i think catholicism as ocorcrc— complex. i think catholicism as ocorcrc rc— complex. i think catholicism as a faith is probably— complex. i think catholicism as a faith is probably a little bit ooccor— a faith is probably a little bit better immunised from this idea of better immunised from this idea or ocoryrrrrrco— better immunised from this idea of everything being subordinated to of everything being subordinated co profic— of everything being subordinated ro procrc oco— of everything being subordinated to profit and commercialisation. not to profit and commercialisation. uoc croc— to profit and commercialisation. not not perfectly— to profit and commercialisation. not not perfectly so, but a croco— not not perfectly so, but a uccro orc— not not perfectly so, but a little bit better— not not perfectly so, but a little bit better . i/rir?“ little bit better. yeah, that ocoo— little bit better. yeah, that does seem to be part of the problem, doesn't it? that authority in the catholic church has here has its has this majesty here has its papal infallibility motty. it has protections guards against wokeness. and it does seem to be wokeness playing its hand here. if we look at the north—west of the country, lancashire ,

the country, lancashire, merseyside, copeland, cumbria , merseyside, copeland, cumbria, all roughly still 66. christian it's london and the south—east where, you know, tower hamlets, for example, 22% christian. no surprise there. so it's not just wokeness there are other elements at play. but do you think wokeness is. well, i think occuouy,— think wokeness is. well, i think occuouy, ._ think wokeness is. well, i think actually, i agree— "

cocror— perhaps is looking towards social justice— perhaps is looking towards social justice ideas as and prooroccrvo— social justice ideas as and progressive ideas . draghi progressive ideas. draghi porcrcurorry— progressive ideas. draghi particularly critical theory and in some cases— particularly critical theory and in some cases particular strands of crcoorooy— in some cases particular strands of theology, liberation theology choc— of theology, liberation theology choc drow— of theology, liberation theology choc orow orc — of theology, liberation theology that draw on critical theories . that draw on critical theories. urc— that draw on critical theories. rrcrc rc— that draw on critical theories. crrrc cc oocrrrro— that draw on critical theories. this is getting very complicated , ouc— this is getting very complicated , our ._ this is getting very complicated , our . crunc— this is getting very complicated , but i think that— this is getting very complicated , but i think that they may see in choc— , but i think that they may see in that misplaced— , but i think that they may see in that misplaced or they may rc— in that misplaced or they may rrc croc— in that misplaced or they may see in that the— in that misplaced or they may see in that the church is corvocrorc— see in that the church is salvation ,_ see in that the church is salvation , as- see in that the church is salvation , as it were, that they salvation, as it were, that they crunc— salvation, as it were, that they chuck croc— salvation, as it were, that they think that this— salvation, as it were, that they think that this is— salvation, as it were, that they think that this is going to get oumc— think that this is going to get oumcloowc— think that this is going to get bums pews when in reality bums on pews when in reality whor— bums on pews when in reality ccuor roouy— bums on pews when in reality what really attracts people. and i what really attracts people. and . crunc— what really attracts people. and ccrcrrck choro— what really attracts people. and i think there mistaken in cornuco— i think there mistaken in thinking that— i think there mistaken in thinking that young people poopro— thinking that young people poopro co— thinking that young people poopro so or— thinking that young people people 30 or under are attracted to people 30 or under are attracted co cruc— people 30 or under are attracted co cruc wron— people 30 or under are attracted to this when the— people 30 or under are attracted to this when the reality is at roocc— to this when the reality is at roocc rc— to this when the reality is at roocc in my— to this when the reality is at least in my anecdotal experience , choc— least in my anecdotal experience , choc whor— least in my anecdotal experience no no youro— least in my anecdotal experience , that what young people are roouy— , that what young people are roouy currccy— , that what young people are really thirsty for— , that what young people are really thirsty for are is to be, you— really thirsty for are is to be, you know, — really thirsty for are is to be, you know, preach— really thirsty for are is to be, you know, preach the gospel in a way— you know, preach the gospel in a woy croc— you know, preach the gospel in a woy choc rc— you know, preach the gospel in a way that is sincere— you know, preach the gospel in a way that is sincere and authentic— way that is sincere and authentic and not cringing and ocrcorcoo.— authentic and not cringing and ocrcorcoo. ._ authentic and not cringing and ashamed. i think— authentic and not cringing and ashamed. i think a lot of poopro— ashamed. i think a lot of poopro, whor— ashamed. i think a lot of people, when they say that troy-ro— people, when they say that they're christians, they say in a they're christians, they say in o croo— they're christians, they say in o kind or— they're christians, they say in a kind of cringing way as if croy— a kind of cringing way as if troy-oo— a kind of cringing way as if they be apologetic a kind of cringing way as if- they-be apologetic about they have to be apologetic about itiand— they have to be apologetic about rclorco-crcoc— they have to be apologetic about it iand -that en - they have to be apologetic about it and that en masse as it. and we see that en masse as a it. and we see that en masse as o-curcurouy— it. and we see that en masse as o-curcurouy ._ it. and we see that en masse as a-culturally, i think- a society culturally, i think you—

a society culturally, i think you oco— a society culturally, i think you and particularly with institutions— you and particularly with institutions ,_ you and particularly with institutions , there's either institutions, there's either a coro— institutions, there's either a corc oc— institutions, there's either a corc or rico— institutions, there's either a sort of like cringing hesitancy to sort of like cringing hesitancy co rocoorcrco— sort of like cringing hesitancy to recognise the— sort of like cringing hesitancy to recognise the christian roots of to recognise the christian roots or our— to recognise the christian roots or courccry— to recognise the christian roots of our country or— to recognise the christian roots of our country or institutions , of our country or institutions, or choro— of our country or institutions, or too rc— of our country or institutions, or too rc orc— of our country or institutions, or there is an active sort of rcorcococrcr— or there is an active sort of iconoclasm and— or there is an active sort of iconoclasm and vandalism towards it iconoclasm and vandalism towards rc oco— iconoclasm and vandalism towards rc orco ._ iconoclasm and vandalism towards rc orco . crunc— iconoclasm and vandalism towards it and i think that— iconoclasm and vandalism towards it and i think that that is ooorrc— it and i think that that is again comes— it and i think that that is again comes out of a misplaced oc— again comes out of a misplaced or ounc— again comes out of a misplaced or our .— again comes out of a misplaced sense of guilt . and they i think sense of guilt. and they i think troy— sense of guilt. and they i think ruoy crury— sense of guilt. and they i think ruoy crury oo— sense of guilt. and they i think they truly do believe that if crcoy— they truly do believe that if crcoy rook— they truly do believe that if ruoy rook co— they truly do believe that if they look to these new ideas , they look to these new ideas, croc— they look to these new ideas, choc croy— they look to these new ideas, that they will— they look to these new ideas, that they will find their salvation _ that they will find their salvation in— that they will find their salvation in those ideas rather choro— salvation in those ideas rather crcorc rc— salvation in those ideas rather crcorc rrc croo— salvation in those ideas rather than in the ideas— salvation in those ideas rather than in the ideas of the gospel . againc— than in the ideas of the gospel . againc co— than in the ideas of the gospel . again, so much— than in the ideas of the gospel . again, so much packed in there. i want to call aaron up on two of these points that you raised. so firstly, the iconoclasm and the whole embarrassing part about being christian. embarrassing part about being christiéthe prayer with me prayed the lord's prayer with me just then. i'm thankful that you did. were you embarrassed did. but were you embarrassed about that? not about doing that? not especially. i mean, it's rrcporcorcc— especially. i mean, it's important you especially. i mean, it's- important-you know, important to say, you know, rcrurorcc— important to say, you know, millions—was. important to say, you know,- millions_was saying millions of people i was saying cocuor,— earlier, actually, and i did it ovory— earlier, actually, and i did it ocory morocco— earlier, actually, and i did it every morning school, every morning at school, in prrrcory— every morning at school, in primary school— every morning at school, in primary school child . and primary school as a child. and my—ccrui my presumption is that's still a common event.— my presumption is that's still a common event. i— my presumption is that's still a common event. i mean, perhaps it rcoc— common event. i mean, perhaps it coo-c— common event. i mean, perhaps it orcr-r orc— isn't. i mean, i am unfortunately getting old. so you—mel unfortunately getting old. so you—mo cl unfortunately getting old. so. you—mo , rc-c you know, that's so for me, it's a you know, that's so for me, it's ovory— you know, that's so for me, it's ovory rc-c— you know, that's so for me, it's ovory rc-c o— you know, that's so for me, it's ocory rr-c o cory— you know, that's so for me, it's a very it's a very commonplace ovoryooy— everyday thing. i think it's orco— everyday thing. i think it's

alsolvery_ everyday thing. i think it's orcolvory-vory- everyday thing. i think it's- alsolvery-very powerful also a very it's a very powerful rcoccooo rocrc— also a very it's a very powerful message. even if— also a very it's a very powerful message. even if you don't even if message. even if you don't even rc-rcococcoruy- message. even if you don't even if necessarily believe if you don't necessarily believe in coo. — if you don't necessarily believe in coo. ._ if you don't necessarily believe in god. i think— if you don't necessarily believe in god. i think the— if you don't necessarily believe in god. i think the idea of forgiveness— in god. i think the idea of forgiveness is— in god. i think the idea of forgiveness is the key message of croo— forgiveness is the key message or too oocpoi— forgiveness is the key message of the gospel. and it's an rrccroorcuy— of the gospel. and it's an incredibly powerful and potent rcoccooo mor— incredibly powerful and potent message. -for me,- incredibly powerful and potent message. for me, the big message. and for me, the big cocoowoy— message. and for me, the big rokoorcoy occo— message. and for me, the big takeaway and it's— message. and for me, the big takeaway and it's exactly what you— takeaway and it's exactly what you yoro— takeaway and it's exactly what you coyrrro— takeaway and it's exactly what you were saying really , and i you were saying really, and i crunc— you were saying really, and i chuck rc— you were saying really, and i think it sounds— you were saying really, and i think it sounds like a trick is being— think it sounds like a trick is being rrcrccoo— think it sounds like a trick is being missed really by more poworcur— being missed really by more powerful people, particularly being missed really by more povtchurch eople, particularly being missed really by more povtchurch of)le, particularly being missed really by more povtchurch of england:ularly being missed really by more povtchurch of england ,ilarly being missed really by more povtchurch of england , which is the church of england, which is choc— the church of england, which is choc-ocorco— the church of england, which is choc-ocorco ,_ the church of england, which is that-people , all- the church of england, which is that people , all people, that young people, all people, roomy,— that young people, all people, crockry ouc— that young people, all people, frankly, but young people are oocpororory— frankly, but young people are desperately in— frankly, but young people are desperately in search of meaning and desperately in search of meaning orro oocoorocory— desperately in search of meaning and desperately in— desperately in search of meaning and desperately in search of a oc— and desperately in search of a or high— and desperately in search of a sense of high purpose in life . sense of high purpose in life. arro— sense of high purpose in life. and rco— sense of high purpose in life. and wo coo— sense of high purpose in life. and we see this,— sense of high purpose in life. and we see this, by the way, crrouorcouc— and we see this, by the way, throughout commercial culture. we throughout commercial culture. rco coo— throughout commercial culture. to rc— throughout commercial culture. we see it with— throughout commercial culture. we see it with journal meditations- we see it with journal meditations and all this stuff , meditations and all this stuff, norr— meditations and all this stuff, now ooo— meditations and all this stuff, uow ooo ccuor.— meditations and all this stuff, new age stuff. yeah, we look, we rcurcorcc— new age stuff. yeah, we look, we rcurcorcc coyo— new age stuff. yeah, we look, we humans have sought to meet those rococ— humans have sought to meet those rcoooc croco— humans have sought to meet those needs since forever— humans have sought to meet those needs since forever depher and occuouy— needs since forever depher and occuouy crco — needs since forever depher and actually the old— needs since forever depher and actually the old ways were very occoccrvo— actually the old ways were very occoccrvo oc— actually the old ways were very effective at doing— actually the old ways were very effective at doing it. and like i effective at doing it. and like . coy,— effective at doing it. and like i say, forgiveness— effective at doing it. and like i say, forgiveness . the idea of i say, forgiveness. the idea of cororvorcocc— i say, forgiveness. the idea of forgiveness is— i say, forgiveness. the idea of forgiveness is such a powerful cor— forgiveness is such a powerful one for me. and— forgiveness is such a powerful one for me. and i— forgiveness is such a powerful one for me. and i think whether or rcoc— one for me. and i think whether or no you— one for me. and i think whether or not you believe— one for me. and i think whether or not you believe in god, wrocrcor— or not you believe in god, doctor or— or not you believe in god, whether or not— or not you believe in god, whether or not you're a procrrcrrro— whether or not you're a practising christian, i think rc-c— it's an extraordinary transformational way to live

your—oo-col transformational way to live. your—oo-co ock your life. and i do want to ask you— your life. and i do want to ask you-cocor— your life. and i do want to ask you-social justice- your life. and i do want to ask you social justice as you about social justice as you,— you about social justice as well, because i assume that you occo— well, because i assume that you oro-orcooroo— well, because i assume that you and-disagree on- and i would disagree on oporoocrroc— and i would disagree on approaches to- and i would disagree on approaches to social justice, ouc— approaches to social justice, our-woo— approaches to social justice,- our-wo-o-ooroo but i think we'd probably agree on but i think we'd probably agree oro—croo— but i think we'd probably agree on_the church- on the fact that the church crcouro —rccl on the fact that the church . should _its own should be looking at its own rcrccory— should be looking at its own ruccory uc— should be looking at its own history in social— should be looking at its own history in social in history in social justice, in feeding—almsl feeding the poor, in alms rcoucoc— feeding the poor, in alms rcoucoc uc— feeding the poor, in alms houses, in charity, these houses, in charity, all these oucoc— houses, in charity, all these ouoc-know- houses, in charity, all these things,-know ,- houses, in charity, all these things, know , setting things, you know, setting up rocorcorc— things, you know, setting upi hospitals,_things hospitals, schools, all things croc— hospitals, schools, all things. that—historically that the church has historically ocorc— that the church has historically boon-oc- — that the church has historically boon-oc- ouo— that the church has historically been-at. but now- that the church has historically been at. been good at. but now they've forgotten that history and they seem social seem to be looking to social norms what would seem to be looking to social nornwokeness. what would seem to be looking to social nornwokeness. you what would seem to be looking to social nornwokeness. you might would call wokeness. you might disagree but least disagree on that, but at least i imagine agree that it's imagine you'd agree that it's looking in the wrong direction . looking in the wrong direction. i . imean, i think that's right. i mean, i'm a socialist. if- i think that's right. i mean, i'm a socialist. if your- i'm a socialist. if your ouororcco— i'm a socialist. if your audience hasn't already worked it audience hasn't already worked rc-arco— audience hasn't already worked rc-arco co— audience hasn't already worked it and so obviously my. it out. and so obviously my. doro-c— it out. and so obviously my. ococ-croc— it out. and so obviously my. don't that against you. don't hold that against you. rcorc— don't hold that against you. yeah-particular- don't hold that against you. yeah-particular know yeah my particular read you know i at yeah my particular read you know c-oc croo— yeah my particular read you know nor to gospel— yeah my particular read you know i at the gospel actually i look at the gospel as actually a i look at the gospel as actually o occooo oc— i look at the gospel as actually a message of in— i look at the gospel as actually a message of in the context of 2000— a message of in the context of 2000 yoorc— a message of in the context of 2000 yoorc ooo— a message of in the context of 2000 years ago in— a message of in the context of 2000 years ago in west asia of rovorucrorcory— 2000 years ago in west asia of revolutionary justice. now some people— revolutionary justice. now some poopro co— revolutionary justice. now some poopro coy— revolutionary justice. now some people can say was that for this rcorco— people can say was that for this world or— people can say was that for this world or for— people can say was that for this world or for the— people can say was that for this world or for the next and so on. ouc— world or for the next and so on. our ._ world or for the next and so on. our . crunc— world or for the next and so on. but i think that's— world or for the next and so on. but i think that's the that's croo— but i think that's the that's coo-moccooo- but i think that's the that's. the - message _and but i think that's the that's- the - message _and you the broad message there. and you can the broad message there. and you corcrco—c— the broad message there. and you con—rcoc-crcol can go throughout not just the now—oro- can go throughout not just the. now—oro-coo new testament, the old one, too r-of_ new testament, the old one, too ,-or ococ,— new testament, the old one, too ,-of debt, jubilees- new testament, the old one, too , of debt, jubilees like, , ideas of debt, jubilees like, say,— , ideas of debt, jubilees like, coy, helping— , ideas of debt, jubilees like, savr helping the_ , ideas of debt, jubilees like, say, helping the poor, feeding the say, helping the poor, feeding rrro hungry,— say, helping the poor, feeding the hungry, vanquishing the

porcorfui— the hungry, vanquishing the porrorfur. so— the hungry, vanquishing the powerful. so there is very much a powerful. so there is very much o porrcrcor— powerful. so there is very much a political and— powerful. so there is very much a political and economic message choro— a political and economic message croro oc— a political and economic message there of lifting— a political and economic message there of lifting other people up- _ there of lifting other people up. rcorc— there of lifting other people up. voorr occo— there of lifting other people up. yeah and i— there of lifting other people up. yeah and i think you're crouc— up. yeah and i think you're rrorcc co— up. yeah and i think you're rcorcr co orc— up. yeah and i think you're right to an extent that's not choro— right to an extent that's not there anymore.— right to an extent that's not there anymore. you know, every couruo— there anymore. you know, every couruo oc— there anymore. you know, every coupro or yoorc— there anymore. you know, every couple of years we— there anymore. you know, every couple of years we have justin, in — couple of years we have justin, in rcoc— couple of years we have justin, in no o— couple of years we have justin, in no o big— couple of years we have justin, i'm not a big fan— couple of years we have justin, i'm not a big fan of justin worry.— i'm not a big fan of justin worry. ._ i'm not a big fan of justin worry. c-co- i'm not a big fan of justini welby. i-to-every welby. i have to say, every coupro— welby. i have to say, every coupro-rcovo- welby. i have to say, every couple - have to i welby. i have to say, every. couple-have to give couple of years i have to give some—neither. couple of years i have to give| some—neither am couple of years i have to give- some_neither am i. some balance, but neither am i. coon— some balance, but neither am i. voor. occur— some balance, but neither am i. yeah, ofcom might— some balance, but neither am i. yeah, ofcom might not- some balance, but neither am i. yeah, ofcom might not turning out so much out to be not so much of a jewel. yeah. no, what jewel. yeah. no, but what i don't like justin welby don't like about justin welby and my faith, i and it's not my faith, so i don't think business to don't think it's my business to sort on this. he sort of drop in on this. he talks so much about social justice and so on, but he does so little. he delivers so little. don't know , he's little. and i don't know, he's not here answer for himself, not here to answer for himself, but we could go into a whole topic what justin welby does topic on what justin welby does and does do. i'm also and does not do. i'm also running— and does not do. i'm also running o— and does not do. i'm also running a-poll- and does not do. i'm alsoi running a-poll with running a twitter poll with the ouoccrorc—wru- running a twitter poll with thei question _will your question for you guys, will your roccor— easter celebrations be mostly currccrorc— easter celebrations be mostly christian—or. christian themed theme or orccrrory— christian themed theme or entirely secular? which answers oc— entirely secular? which answers or croo— entirely secular? which answers some of the debate that we've yucc— some of the debate that we've r-ucc—ccru just been asking. can you still be-christian- just been asking. can you still be-christian or- just been asking. can you still be-christian or do. be culturally christian or do you— be culturally christian or do you coyo— be culturally christian or do you havelbe_ be culturally christian or do you have be christian to you have to be christian to corooroco— you have to be christian to celebrate—polll celebrate easter? the poll is open— celebrate easter? the poll is ococ-roco— celebrate easter? the poll is occoo-rcoco pro.- celebrate easter? the poll is open 7:40 pm. you still open until 7:40 pm. you still coyo— open until 7:40 pm. you still too prorry— open until 7:40 pm. you still too proory oc— open until 7:40 pm. you still have plenty of time to cast your vococ— have plenty of time to cast your vococ-wo-u— have plenty of time to cast your votes-we'll be— have plenty of time to cast your votes we'll be bringing votes and we'll be bringing the rocurcc—crco- results at the end of the program— results at the end of the program .— results at the end of the program . plenty more to come

program. plenty more to come cruc— program. plenty more to come cruc ovorcrrco— program. plenty more to come this evening on— program. plenty more to come this evening on my common sense crucooo arro— this evening on my common sense crusade. and next,— this evening on my common sense crusade. and next, we'll be talking— crusade. and next, we'll be talking co— crusade. and next, we'll be talking to gb— crusade. and next, we'll be talking to gb news investigations reporter charlie rocorc— investigations reporter charlie rocorc-crco— investigations reporter charlie peters the government's peters about the government's occorcoc— peters about the government's orrorcprlccorrcp— peters about the government's attempt stamp out grooming attempt to stamp out grooming gangs— attempt to stamp out grooming oorroc-crco— attempt to stamp out grooming gangs the media's response .

well come back to the common sense crusade— well come back to the common sense crusade with— well come back to the common sense crusade with me, calvin roorrccorc— sense crusade with me, calvin roorccorc, orc— sense crusade with me, calvin robinson, on your— sense crusade with me, calvin robinson, on your tv online and on your— robinson, on your tv online and on your rcrrorocc — robinson, on your tv online and on your wireless. prime minister rcrcrcr— on your wireless. prime minister rcrcrcr surcok— on your wireless. prime minister rishi sunak-vowed- on your wireless. prime minister rishi sunak vowed make rishi sunak has vowed to make crorcorrco— stamping out grooming gangs a octo— stamping out grooming gangs a major—himself- stamping out grooming gangs a major himself and stamping out grooming gangs a major secretary himself and stamping out grooming gangs a major secretary suella self and stamping out grooming gangs a major secretary suella braverman stamping out grooming gangs a majosbeen etary suella braverman stamping out grooming gangs a majosbeen outlininglla braverman stamping out grooming gangs a majosbeen outlininglla brplansan have been outlining their plans

to have been outlining their plans co-crco— have been outlining their plans co-crco-cc- to tackle the crisis. it goes rumour— to tackle the crisis. it goes without saying— to tackle the crisis. it goes without saying that is without saying that there is a unanimous _thei unanimous desire to end the crckorcrrco— unanimous desire to end the- crckorcrrco—rcorcorc sickening sexual abuse of women and sickening sexual abuse of women occo oucc,— sickening sexual abuse of women occo orrrc ouc— sickening sexual abuse of women and girls, but media reaction to the and girls, but media reaction to. coo—roocc the government's plans has been rucoo,— the government's plans has been rook— the government's plans has been mixe

2023. reaction in terms of 2023. the reaction in terms of the language used then and the language used fact, many language used now. in fact, many of this week i of the people this week who i think shamefully let think have shamefully let themselves down and the language they've accusations themselves down and the language thcracism accusations themselves down and the language thcracism that accusations themselves down and the language thcracism that they've accusations themselves down and the language thcracism that they've made tions themselves down and the language thcracism that they've made were of racism that they've made were ten years ago using the language that suella braverman was using on sunday when she announced her policy. in terms policy. so but in this in terms of the reaction to the story on monday, and if we just focus on this week, then, think this week, then, yes, i think there been criticism there has been more criticism and about the backlash and more fear about the backlash than the actual problem itself. well, was it adil ray who who compared racist compared so—called racist reactions to the report out to nine over 11 and seven over seven? for goodness sake, talk ooouc— seven? for goodness sake, talk about hyperbole. _ , for goodness sake, talk about hyperbole. / about hyperbole. yeah, procrcory.— about hyperbole. yeah, precisely. and this is a classic trope we have where people are more concerned about a fake backlash they fear rather backlash that they fear rather than the issue itself. they fear more about some perverse form of vigilante justice arising from the shires, which never actually happens, of course, more than they fear dealing with the problem and pointing out that these disparities exist within society. and this week there's

been a huge fuss in the media. i'm sure you've seen about matt goodwin writing this book called values, voice and virtue , values, voice and virtue, talking about these new elites, these new progressives who coalesce around ideas of progressivism and pro—diversity, pro—immigration and he's argued that these people will hold enormous amounts of cultural power in the arts and in the charity sector in in journalism as well. and when these issues come up, they do coalesce around the left liberal line , and the left liberal line, and people have been very upset to be included in this bracket. i mean, goodwin's come for mean, goodwin's come out for a lot criticism pointing it lot of criticism for pointing it out, same week that lot of criticism for pointing it out, has same week that lot of criticism for pointing it out, has happened, e week that lot of criticism for pointing it out, has happened, e week tihad this has happened, we have had a perfect example this perfect example of this happening. loads of people within the charity sector, the nspcc there , for example, nspcc there, for example, the runnymede , adil ray, loads runnymede trust, adil ray, loads of commentators and of other commentators and broadcasters all saying you can't possibly talk about this problem . it's racist problem. it's racist and dominating national dominating the national conversation. while ordinary britons who are very concerned about these gangs are sidelined. i goodwin's point and the i think goodwin's point and the national conversation that i'm trying to have to restart this

issue, it's been proven straight away or suella braverman herself said it's not racist to tell the truth . but what i want to get truth. but what i want to get to, truth. but what i want to get to crcorrro— truth. but what i want to get to, charlie, is— truth. but what i want to get to, charlie, is what- but what i want to get to, charlie, is what the to, charlie, is what is the urooocc— to, charlie, is what is the biggest-here?- to, charlie, is what is the- biggest-here?.you've biggest impact here? or you've ocorc— biggest impact here? or you've ooorc crockrrco— biggest impact here? or you've been tracking this? is it the orvorcrcy— been tracking this? is it the diversity, inclusion and oouorrry— diversity, inclusion and 6}(import— diversity, inclusion and eq support diversity to support diversity and occuouy— to support diversity and actually addressing this issue youro— actually addressing this issue. would—diversity? would be damaging to diversity? or-crco— would be damaging to diversity? or-crco coor— would be damaging to diversity? or-the fear-the- or is it the fear of the so—called_ or is it the fear of the so—called right that i or is it the fear of the- so—called.right that i don't so—called far right that i don't crick— so—called far right that i don't chick-ocorc- so—called far right that i don't think-exists at- so—called far right that i don't think-exists at the- think actually exists at the rrcorcorcc — think actually exists at the moment. fearful moment. but we should be fearful that moment. but we should be fearful choc—wo- moment. but we should be fearful choc—oco coop- that they will exist if we keep ouryrrco— that they will exist if we keep ouryrrro-urcoor— that they will exist if we keep burying under the carpet? burying this under the carpet? i-predominantly- burying this under the carpet? i-predominantly the. i think it's predominantly the form the long form and the year long investigation that took investigation that i took into this crisis . we found an example this crisis. we found an example of one man called mahroof hussain, labour hussain, who was is a labour minister in the rotherham council throughout noughties council throughout the noughties . he to resign in 2015. he . he had to resign in 2015. he was community cohesion was the community cohesion minister and he was accused in the kwasi reports of deflecting investigations into the into pakistani taxi drivers and he made a face, a false accusation of racism against a labour member. and he did this. of racism against a labour member. and he did this . it's member. and he did this. it's alleged because and many survivors have told me he prioritised social cohesion over the security and safety of young women and girls. that one

example is replicated in many other places omar sharif hussein , we found in january was still working in the public sector. now as diverse city manager in now as a diverse city manager in the so these things, the nhs. and so these things, you know, the lessons have not been learned this huge been learned when this huge crisis erupted, there was a rush to defend diversity. and, you know , the political attachments know, the political attachments to progressive ism more than there was a keenness to stamp out this problem. and is out this problem. and that is why it is still going on today. well, i see two problems there. one, seems fear of one, that it seems the fear of being— one, that it seems the fear of rcorco—roocc- one, that it seems the fear of being—racist or- one, that it seems the fear of. being—racist or being being accused of racist or being rocrcc— being accused of racist or being rocrcc or— being accused of racist or being racist or-fear_ being accused of racist or being racist or fear racism is racist or the fear of racism is oucoc-c— racist or the fear of racism is what's enabled— racist or the fear of racism is what's enabled this problem to porcrcc— what's enabled this problem to porcrcc . — what's enabled this problem to porcrcr . coon— what's enabled this problem to persist . yeah, and- what's enabled this problem to persist . i/ririi" ' r: si”ri what's enabled this problem to persist . i/ririi" ' r: sri”ri persist. yeah, and there's also been, think , quite a lot of been, i think, quite a lot of political attachment to that problem. i mean, the reaction we've very aggressively we've seen very aggressively against has , of against braverman has, of course, come from course, predominantly come from the in the labour the opposition in the labour party, reacted most vociferously to this. i mean, tracy brabin , to this. i mean, tracy brabin, the said the west yorkshire mayor, said it was dog whistle politics. other other commentators on the left have made similar accusations and i think the political issue here, the problem that dealing with child

abuse has been politically sized so much has meant that it's been very tough for everyone to come together and support an honest and direct approach to dealing with this problem. i mean, i'm very is here, very glad that aaron is here, for because i for example, because when i broke story december about broke a story in december about the labour selecting the labour party selecting a parliamentary candidate who was forced to resign in 2015 from that same report , i think as that same report, i think as i told him this week , aaron was told him this week, aaron was the only noticeably left wing commentator who shared that gb news story because everyone else thought it was too embarrassing. i to associated thought it was too embarrassing. i the to associated thought it was too embarrassing. i the channel. associated thought it was too embarrassing. i the channel. assohavej with the channel. they have their don't know. and their reasons. i don't know. and that divide has that kind of divide has definitely hampered our response to this problem. well, thank you for to this problem. well, thank you cor-soowoy— to this problem. well, thank you for-segway, charlie. - well, thank you for segway, charlie. let's for that segway, charlie. let's bring— for that segway, charlie. let's bring aororc— for that segway, charlie. let's bring aaron aaron you bring aaron in. aaron do you crunc— bring aaron in. aaron do you think—yourl bring aaron in. aaron do you. think—your side think many people on your side of think many people on your side oc—orvroo- think many people on your side of_divide-too. of the political divide are too coorcur— of the political divide are too fearful-being— of the political divide are too fearful being associated fearful of being associated with people— people on the right, that troy-ro— people on the right, that they're addressing this very they're not addressing this very imporcorcc— they're not addressing this very. important—that's important matter? i think that's probably probably true. i think it's more it's probably true more broadly in and it in politics. and i think it works both the way, works both ways. by the way, i think many people think there are many people on the wouldn't an the right that wouldn't share an article novara article from novara media because, think because, you know, but i think it exceptionally good it was exceptionally good journalism. um, that particular piece with regards to the

councillor there, what i would say it's a question for you i suppose is , is the left or suppose is, is the left or people on the left would make the counterargument, which is , the counterargument, which is, is statistically certain kinds of child sexual abuse where they're done in this way. it's more likely to be certain people from a certain ethnic background. however for the reality of child sexual abuse in this country, i think a quarter of people who are victims of it, the perpetrators, is a family member . and i think something member. and i think something like 93% of people who are victims, this is the nspcc , they victims, this is the nspcc, they know the person who's done it and i suppose the concern is and it's a shame because we're not having a sort having a more sort of structured, debate structured, informed debate around this. think some of around this. i think some of those people are actually trying to to you, you're to say to you, you're mischaracterising the nature of child is child sexual abuse, which is often in the home, often perpetrated by individuals, family et cetera . and family members. et cetera. and instead, we're seeing is instead, what we're seeing is a sort of social psychology of this is done by large groups of men who are often from ethnic minorities, which isn't an

accurate child sexual accurate picture of child sexual abuse. maybe that's what abuse. so maybe that's what they're you it's they're saying to you and it's not communicated clearly. not being communicated clearly. if they aren't doing that, crcoy-ro— if they aren't doing that, crcoy-ro-vory- they're doing it very disingenuously. because my iourrroicrc— journalism, my investigation has orwoyc—ccrooc- always been about on street oroorrcrrco— always been about on street oroorcrrco oorroc— always been about on street grooming gangs in particular, i crunc— grooming gangs in particular, i chuck cruc— grooming gangs in particular, i chuck cruc rc— grooming gangs in particular, i think this is a— grooming gangs in particular, i think this is a this is a porcrorc— think this is a this is a porrrorc o— think this is a this is a portion a very it a small portion a very it is a small porcrorc— portion a very it is a small portion-child— portion a very it is a small portion child abuse. that's portion of child abuse. that's cruo— portion of child abuse. that's cruo-rc-c— portion of child abuse. that's true.-it'slportion| true. but it's a it's a portion choc— true. but it's a it's a portion choclcrcrrck— true. but it's a it's a portion that think avoided that i think has avoided the mocc— that i think has avoided the most scrutiny. _ that i think has avoided the most scrutiny. and successful opproocrcoc— most scrutiny. and successful approaches implemented by approaches being implemented by oovorrcrrcorcc— approaches being implemented by government and— approaches being implemented by government and regional bodies . government and regional bodies. the government and regional bodies. rrco policer— government and regional bodies. the police, local— government and regional bodies. the police, local authorities. i crunc— the police, local authorities. i chuck choro— the police, local authorities. i think there is— the police, local authorities. i think there is a— the police, local authorities. i think there is a widespread cociotoi— think there is a widespread societal, shameful failure to ocor— societal, shameful failure to door ruch— societal, shameful failure to deal with child— societal, shameful failure to deal with child abuse general deal with child abuse in general .-rcoooorcc— deal with child abuse in general .-happens online.- deal with child abuse in general . happens online. the . most of it happens online. the uco— . most of it happens online. the nca .— . most of it happens online. the uca , rcc— . most of it happens online. the nca , its specialist— . most of it happens online. the nca , its specialist officers, nca, its specialist officers, crcoy— nca, its specialist officers,| crcoy—oocouco they are struggling because choro— they are struggling because crcoro ococo-c— they are struggling because there aren't resourced properly. it's there aren't resourced properly. cc-c orc— there aren't resourced properly. cc-c orc ccuo— there aren't resourced properly. cc-c orc wo— there aren't resourced properly. it's an issue we don't deal with in it's an issue we don't deal with rrc-porcrcurorry- it's an issue we don't deal with in particularly well. in general, particularly well. ouc—choc- in general, particularly well.. but—that particular but on that, on that particular porcu— but on that, on that particular porrc oc— but on that, on that particular point of child— but on that, on that particular point of child sex— but on that, on that particular point of child sex grooming gangs— point of child sex grooming gangsr rrooc— point of child sex grooming gangsr ucoc rc— point of child sex grooming gangs, that is where there is ooorcrorcor— gangs, that is where there is additional sensitivities and ooorcrorcor— additional sensitivities and additional resistance to dealing ruch— additional resistance to dealing wrcrc crco— additional resistance to dealing with the problem. and that is who— with the problem. and that is who no— with the problem. and that is what i've been— with the problem. and that is what i've been critical of. and i what i've been critical of. and . crunc— what i've been critical of. and . chuck crco— what i've been critical of. and i think the government announcement on monday about announcement on monday was about crorrcorrco— announcement on monday was about crorcromorco— announcement on monday was about clarclamping down— announcement on monday was about clarclamping down child not clamping down on child oucoc— not clamping down on child abuse-_veryl abuse. it was about a very coocrcrc— abuse. it was about a very specific targeted form. and specific and targeted form. and people— specific and targeted form. and ocorco—crco- specific and targeted form. and. people _the debate. people want to widen the debate. t hey— people want to widen the debate. rroy-oo —

people want to widen the debate. rroy-oo crcoo — people want to widen the debate. they-do that. but— people want to widen the debate. they do that. but we should they can do that. but we should occo— they can do that. but we should occo rcoco— they can do that. but we should also make sure— they can do that. but we should also make sure we— they can do that. but we should also make sure we hammer that promon— also make sure we hammer that proororc oc— also make sure we hammer that problem as well. _ also make sure we hammer that problem as well. emma, we've corkoo— problem as well. emma, we've talked about— problem as well. emma, we've talked about commentators and r-ourrcouccc— talked about commentators and journalists looking journalists and people looking at journalists and people looking oc—crorc- journalists and people looking oc—crorc crco- at this problem from the outcro— at this problem from thei outside,_think at this problem from the- outside,_think racism at this problem from the- oufearc,_think racism at this problem from the- oufear of-think racism at this problem from the oufear of racism think racism at this problem from the oufear of racism hashink racism at this problem from the oufear of racism has also racism at this problem from the oufear of racism has also been] or fear of racism has also been ucoo— or fear of racism has also been ucoo oc— or fear of racism has also been ucoo oc o— or fear of racism has also been used as a shield— or fear of racism has also been used as a shield by the perpetrators _ used as a shield by the perpetrators themselves, by the people— perpetrators themselves, by the people_councils,| people on the labour councils, by crco— people on the labour councils, by too or — people on the labour councils, by the taxi driver— people on the labour councils, by the taxi driver companies, by people— by the taxi driver companies, by poopro ruco— by the taxi driver companies, by poopro who wru— by the taxi driver companies, by people who will use it as a weapon? — people who will use it as a weapon? so— people who will use it as a weapon? so you- people who will use it as a weapon? t" tt people who will use it as a- weapon? so you cannot accuse me of this because are racist. of this because you are racist. i that if you have sort of i think that if you have sort of corcorrc— i think that if you have sort of certain weaknesses, whether i think that if you have sort of certaiiweaknesses s, whether i think that if you have sort of certaiiweaknesses are hether i think that if you have sort of certaiiweaknesses are inther i think that if you have sort of certaiiweaknesses are in law or those weaknesses are in law or in curcuro— those weaknesses are in law or in culture, there— those weaknesses are in law or in culture, there are going to be in culture, there are going to co rococo— in culture, there are going to co poopro ruco— in culture, there are going to be people who will take the mic occo— be people who will take the mic occo ruco— be people who will take the mic occo wrco wru— be people who will take the mic and who will use— be people who will take the mic and who will use those sort of wook— and who will use those sort of wook cpocc— and who will use those sort of weak spots and— and who will use those sort of weak spots and exploit them in oroor— weak spots and exploit them in oroor co— weak spots and exploit them in oroor o oo— weak spots and exploit them in order to do bad— weak spots and exploit them in order to do bad things . and order to do bad things. and occuouy,— order to do bad things. and occuouy, rc— order to do bad things. and actually, it sounds like it's ronoorccroi— actually, it sounds like it's tangential, but— actually, it sounds like it's tangential, but i don't think it is. tangential, but i don't think it c ouc— tangential, but i don't think it is. but actually— tangential, but i don't think it is. but actually ,_ tangential, but i don't think it is. but actually , there's a sort is. but actually, there's a sort of is. but actually, there's a sort or porouor— is. but actually, there's a sort of parallel problem to this, which— of parallel problem to this, which rc— of parallel problem to this, which is issues— of parallel problem to this, which is issues surrounding women and sharia law and women being— women and sharia law and women being discriminated— women and sharia law and women being discriminated against wrcrcrrc— being discriminated against within muslim— being discriminated against within muslim communities. oocouco— within muslim communities. oocoucowrcorc— within muslim communities. because when i— within muslim communities. because when i used to do research on this- because when i used to do research on this issue with wucum — research on this issue with muslim women— research on this issue with muslim women and almost urcworcouy— muslim women and almost universally those muslim women

coro— universally those muslim women coco rco— universally those muslim women coro mo croc— universally those muslim women told me that they— universally those muslim women told me that they felt the ooworrrrcorcc— told me that they felt the government weren't doing orryrrrrrco— government weren't doing orryrrrrrro-crcoyl government weren't doing anything they were anything because they were ocroro— anything because they were ocroro oc— anything because they were afraid of being— anything because they were afraid of being accused of islamophobia_ afraid of being accused of islamophobia .— afraid of being accused of islamophobia . so i think that islamophobia. so i think that urc— islamophobia. so i think that cruc occo— islamophobia. so i think that this also points— islamophobia. so i think that this also points to a more general— this also points to a more general problem , that fear of general problem, that fear of being— general problem, that fear of being couco— general problem, that fear of being called islamophobic , a being called islamophobic, a coor— being called islamophobic, a too or— being called islamophobic, a too or being— being called islamophobic, a fear of being called racist, coor— fear of being called racist, too or— fear of being called racist, fear of being— fear of being called racist, fear of being called racist, fear of being called transphobic in fear of being called transphobic rrc ou— fear of being called transphobic in on corcc— fear of being called transphobic in all sorts of— fear of being called transphobic in all sorts of sensitive areas proworrcrrco— in all sorts of sensitive areas are preventing justice from being— are preventing justice from being occo.— are preventing justice from being done. and when we're talking— being done. and when we're talking about— being done. and when we're talking about vulnerable crcuororc— talking about vulnerable children, when we're talking ocouc— children, when we're talking about women— children, when we're talking about women who are stuck within commurcrwoc— about women who are stuck within communities that— about women who are stuck within communities that are you serious , ooucrrco— communities that are you serious , ooucrrco rroocc— communities that are you serious , abusing them and— communities that are you serious , abusing them and preventing rroocc— , abusing them and preventing crcorrc from— , abusing them and preventing them from having access to their rroocc— them from having access to their rroocc .— them from having access to their rightsr .— them from having access to their rightsc . crunc— them from having access to their rights, i think that— them from having access to their rights , i think that that's a rights, i think that that's a serious injustice notice. and we rcoco— serious injustice notice. and we rrooo people— serious injustice notice. and we need people like— serious injustice notice. and we need people like charlie to be wory— need people like charlie to be wory, wory— need people like charlie to be very, very straightforward and cpocrcrc— very, very straightforward and cpocrcrc rcc— very, very straightforward and specific in naming the problem, not specific in naming the problem, no cocking— specific in naming the problem, not talking about— specific in naming the problem, not talking about abstracts, not crying— not talking about abstracts, not rryrrro co— not talking about abstracts, not rryrrro ro occ— not talking about abstracts, not rryrrro co co ouc— not talking about abstracts, not trying to get out of it by rcowrco— trying to get out of it by making generalisations and by intentionally— making generalisations and by intentionally missing the point. i intentionally missing the point. . crunc— intentionally missing the point. . chuck wo— intentionally missing the point. i think we need— intentionally missing the point. i think we need people to be courageous, to— i think we need people to be courageous, to name things for who— courageous, to name things for who crcoy— courageous, to name things for who crcoy oro— courageous, to name things for what they are and— courageous, to name things for what they are and to point out choco— what they are and to point out crcoco rococo— what they are and to point out those people who— what they are and to point out those people who were taking the mic occo— those people who were taking the mic occo-rcoc— those people who were taking the mic and-not be— those people who were taking the mic and not be afraid mic and to not be afraid to do iyeah— mic and to not be afraid to do iyeah .— mic and to not be afraid to do so. iyeah , you've— mic and to not be afraid to do so. iyeah , you've got- mic and to not be afraid to do so. i/ririi" grir e mic and to not be afraid to do so. /rir3" cir c so. yeah, you've got time to answer that you'd to. answer that if you'd like to. charlie i think i agree .

charlie well, i think i agree. i charlie well, i think i agree. . moor.— charlie well, i think i agree. . .— charlie well, i think i agree. i mean, i want— charlie well, i think i agree. i mean, i want more- charlie well, i think i agree. i mean, i want more people doing the work me. i mean, the same work as me. i mean, i was stunned while conducting my investigation . how these investigation. how many of these kind and scalps kind of scoops and scalps i could because there could walk into because there just people just weren't other people looking i mean, looking in this space? i mean, a lot this a lot of the lot of this a lot of the journalism i've conducted since i started investigation i started this investigation was pretty entry level stuff. i mean, people just, you know, have a go. journals done have a go. journals have done the more of it, the same thing much more of it, though, was about dealing with survivors and having or survivors and having them or getting trust and that's getting their trust and that's significantly delicate . and significantly more delicate. and anyone want to do this significantly more delicate. and anyorhas want to do this significantly more delicate. and anyorhas to want to do this significantly more delicate. and anyorhas to focus want to do this significantly more delicate. and anyorhas to focus waithat. to this significantly more delicate. and anyorhas to focus waithat. and is work has to focus on that. and i think discussion. that's think that's discussion. that's a out on a discussion we've missed out on this by focusing this week by focusing on these false accusations of racism, by starting this culture war fight over language used, what we over the language used, what we should have done instead , spend should have done instead, spend more speaking to and more time speaking to and listening to survivors who will point out the problem as it is, as they did when they met the prime suella prime minister and suella braverman i spoke braverman on monday. and i spoke to rather than to them afterwards rather than flapping around with this fake concocted silly political correctness. absolutely thank you, charlie peters,- correctness. absolutely thank you, charlie peters, for- tt ' crieyc thank you, charlie peters, for your investigation— you, charlie peters, for your investigation and thank you to my panel— investigation and thank you to my porcor cor— investigation and thank you to

my porcor for o— investigation and thank you to my panel for a wonderful discussion— my panel for a wonderful discussion that. think discussion on that. i think we rcoco—ouc- discussion on that. i think wei need _out these need to keep calling out these people—of- need to keep calling out these. people—of rcowrco people who are afraid of having the people who are afraid of having rcco—rcc- the conversation because it's so rmooworcc.— the conversation because it's so important-more- the conversation because it's so important-more to- the conversation because it's so important. more to come important. plenty more to come rcorc— important. plenty more to come chic—my— important. plenty more to come. chic—my-corcco this evening on my common sense crucooo wow,— this evening on my common sense crucooo wow-oo— this evening on my common sense crusade. next, be talking crusade. next, we'll be talking to crusade. next, we'll be talking co—cyorcc- crusade. next, we'll be talking to_lyons about. crusade. next, we'll be talkingi to_lyons about the to bishop andy lyons about the church— to bishop andy lyons about the church-england— to bishop andy lyons about the church england woke and church of england going woke and how church of england going woke and crow—oo— church of england going woke and how—to crco- church of england going woke andi how—be the solution how gafcon could be the solution

welcome back to the common sense crucooo— welcome back to the common sense crucooo wrcrc— welcome back to the common sense crusade with me,— welcome back to the common sense crusade with me, the— welcome back to the common sense crusade with me, the reverend cowrrc— crusade with me, the reverend calvin robinson— crusade with me, the reverend calvin robinson on your tv ocuco— calvin robinson on your tv orcwrco occo— calvin robinson on your tv online and on— calvin robinson on your tv online and on your wireless. now— online and on your wireless. wow, rocor— online and on your wireless. now, later this— online and on your wireless. now, later this month , i'll be now, later this month, i'll be going— now, later this month, i'll be oorrco co— now, later this month, i'll be oorrco ro «roocc— now, later this month, i'll be going to kigali, rwanda for the ocouow— going to kigali, rwanda for the global gafcon _ going to kigali, rwanda for the global gafcon four conference as wou— global gafcon four conference as wou oc— global gafcon four conference as well as discussing— global gafcon four conference as well as discussing how the worrowroo— well as discussing how the worldwide church moves ahead in the worldwide church moves ahead in crco mec— worldwide church moves ahead in the 2020s, there— worldwide church moves ahead in the 2020s, there sure to be orccuccrorc— the 2020s, there sure to be discussion of— the 2020s, there sure to be discussion of how the anglican corrcrrcucrorc— discussion of how the anglican communion can— discussion of how the anglican communion can work with the church— communion can work with the church of— communion can work with the church of england going forward. the church of england going forward. rcco-oc— church of england going forward. rcco-or england- church of england going forward. the of england has been the church of england has been crcoo— the church of england has been hood of— the church of england has been head of-anglican_

the church of england has been head of anglican communion head of the anglican communion croco— head of the anglican communion cocor,— head of the anglican communion since 1534, but— head of the anglican communion since 1534, but that— head of the anglican communion since 1534, but that will end rcorc— since 1534, but that will end cruc yoor— since 1534, but that will end this year after— since 1534, but that will end this year after nearly half a millennium.— this year after nearly half a millennium. bishop andy lyons is the millennium. bishop andy lyons is crco crcorrrcorc— millennium. bishop andy lyons is the chairman of— millennium. bishop andy lyons is the chairman of gafcon great orrcorrc— the chairman of gafcon great orrcorrc occo— the chairman of gafcon great britain and europe and he joins me britain and europe and he joins mo co— britain and europe and he joins me now to discuss— britain and europe and he joins me now to discuss the conference. _ me now to discuss the conference. bishop andy, first of conference. bishop andy, first oc-crcorw— conference. bishop andy, first oc-crcorw you— conference. bishop andy, first of thank you joining of all, thank you for joining us onlhoiy— of all, thank you for joining us onlholy saturday.— of all, thank you for joining us on holy saturday. i know on a holy saturday. i know your— on a holy saturday. i know you're probably— on a holy saturday. i know you're probably one of the oucrocc— you're probably one of the busiest people— you're probably one of the busiest people in country busiest people in the country crouc— busiest people in the country crow-wron— busiest people in the country rrorcc-wrcorc-ooi right now. when will you be going— right now. when will you be ocuco—occo- right now. when will you be. occoo—occo wrcoc right now. when will you be- going_and what is going over to kigali and what is your— going over to kigali and what is your-cor— going over to kigali and what is your-for gafcon - going over to kigali and what is your for gafcon four ? your idea for gafcon four? crouc— your idea for gafcon four? work you. — your idea for gafcon four? crock you. ruco— your idea for gafcon four? thank you. just to - your idea for gafcon four? thank you. just to correct, i'm not the chairman of gafcon , but not the chairman of gafcon, but i am a trustee . i'm going across i am a trustee. i'm going across on friday, lord willing and i'm looking forward to being in kigali from saturday morning . kigali from saturday morning. what are you expecting to be discussed there ? well, all discussed there? well, all cwrcow— discussed there? well, all cwrcow rc— discussed there? well, all gafcon is a _ discussed there? well, all gafcon is a is— discussed there? well, all gafcon is a is a- r: t: , well, all gafcon is a is a movement which cookc— gafcon is a is a movement which cookc co— gafcon is a is a movement which seeks to return— gafcon is a is a movement which seeks to return the _ gafcon is a is a movement which seeks to return the anglican corrcrrcucrorc— seeks to return the anglican communion to— seeks to return the anglican communion to its biblical roots occo— communion to its biblical roots occo oc— communion to its biblical roots occo oc wou— communion to its biblical roots and as well as— communion to its biblical roots and as well as the— communion to its biblical roots and as well as the pandemic, which— and as well as the pandemic, which or— and as well as the pandemic, which of course— and as well as the pandemic, which of course has played havoc wrcrc— which of course has played havoc with communion—

which of course has played havoc with communion nations and oucoc. — with communion nations and rucooc. so— with communion nations and rucooc. so .— with communion nations and things. so i think- with communion nations and things. e with communion nations and things. so i think it's really important that bishops, clergy , important that bishops, clergy, other clergy and laity meet together for the first time. um, for many years. but obviously we as well as god's great mission agenda of seeing his salvation reach to the ends of the earth, the very things that we're celebrating this easter, um , celebrating this easter, um, also obviously they will be discussing their response to what the house of bishops of the church of england and the general synod have recently indicated as well. how significant is this for the anglican communion since many primates within gafcon and the global south have said they're now in impaired communion with the see of. yeah, i think the wrung— the see of. yeah, i think the crrcrrco rc— yeah, i think the timing is remarkable actually. so timing is remarkable actually. so ro— timing is remarkable actually. so it wo— timing is remarkable actually. so it was planned— timing is remarkable actually. so it was planned because we have one one every five years and this was planned some time ago . but the timing is very ago. but the timing is very auspicious. basically bearing in mind that what happened in january with the house of

bishops and then the february general synod and i think this is a key moment for those provinces, both of the global south fellowship of anglicans , south fellowship of anglicans, but also of the gafcon movement more widely . and there's a lot more widely. and there's a lot of overlap between the two. so i think it's really important that they meet together at this stage and determine their response. well bishop a&e, as one of the trustees of gafcon obe and as the bishop of anglican mission in england, what what options do you have to offer for people who think they are lost within the church of england the church church of england or the church of has them behind of england has left them behind ? well, i also speak as the regional secretary response to the general secretary of gafcon and advising him. that's archbishop ben kwasi obe on on events going on in the region of europe. um obviously one of the key things i'm speaking of is as

the presiding bishop of the anglican network in europe with amy, the anglican mission in europe , in england and the europe, in england and the anglican convocation europe , and anglican convocation europe, and we are seeking to provide a home for those who seek and need our help as happened in 2017 when the scottish episcopal church made moves in the same direction as the church of england is now doing. and then more recently, the church in wales . and so we the church in wales. and so we are seeking to provide a home as well as hold out the hope in christ to this needy continent . christ to this needy continent. well, thank you very much. that orcrcop— well, thank you very much. that orcuoo arroy— well, thank you very much. that was bishop andy lines. thanks for your— was bishop andy lines. thanks for your crcoo— was bishop andy lines. thanks for your time today. i'll see you— for your time today. i'll see you rcc— for your time today. i'll see you rrc kigali-— for your time today. i'll see you in kigali. well let's see who— you in kigali. well let's see who my— you in kigali. well let's see what my duellists make of all choc.— what my duellists make of all| cuoc.—curcrcor what my duellists make of all. crcoo—cucuor, that. before we go any further, i-ve— that. before we go any further, we got— that. before we go any further, we got my— that. before we go any further, i've got my sidekick next to me, emma— i've got my sidekick next to me, emma webb— i've got my sidekick next to me, emma webb .— i've got my sidekick next to me, emma webb . you— i've got my sidekick next to me, emma webb . you know, obviously i've got my sidekick next to me, emrai webb . you know, obviously i've got my sidekick next to me, emra memberyou know, obviously i've got my sidekick next to me, emra member of] know, obviously i've got my sidekick next to me, emra member of gafcontbviously i've got my sidekick next to me, emra member of gafcon ,viously i've got my sidekick next to me, emra member of gafcon , my|sly i'm a member of gafcon, my church— i'm a member of gafcon, my church-of— i'm a member of gafcon, my church of gafcon. i'm church is part of gafcon. i'm the— church is part of gafcon. i'm the-church— church is part of gafcon. i'm the-church of— church is part of gafcon. i'm the church of england . a the free church of england. a separate— the free church of england. a separate convocation to what bishop — separate convocation to what bishop andy— separate convocation to what bishop andy lyons a member bishop andy lyons is a member of. bishop andy lyons is a member ef- .we-e— bishop andy lyons is a member ef- were trying— bishop andy lyons is a member of. we're trying offer of. but we're trying to offer an

alternative. — of. but we're trying to offer ani alternative._things alternative. do you think things like alternative. do you think things eke—right- like that are necessary right new— like that are necessary right n-e— like that are necessary right n-e wen— like that are necessary right now.7 it's very tempting to me. in — now? it's very tempting to me. in listening— now? it's very tempting to me. i'm listening-hear— now? it's very tempting to me. i'm listening-hear him,- i'm listening to hear him, listening to him speaking there. i maybe this is i was thinking maybe this is something that i should be interested think that it's interested in. i think that it's you for those who are you know, even for those who are still church of still within the church of england i that it's very england, i think that it's very helpful , al, to see that there helpful, al, to see that there is , as you know, a worldwide is, as you know, a worldwide anglican communion that is holding true to the traditions. and as he was saying, you holding true to the traditions. and as he was saying , you know, and as he was saying, you know, going back to biblical traditions is, you know, really holding on to the to the traditional doctrine of the anglican communion and of christianity in general worldwide across the board . and worldwide across the board. and i think that that is a is a comfort to many people within the church of england. i expect that it will attract a lot of people away from the church of england cause those numbers england and cause those numbers to more. but it's to dwindle even more. but it's good for people to have a sense that there is an option. and i think the reason for that is because, as we saw with what happened calvin , the happened to you, calvin, the church england is seeming

church of england is seeming purging from its own ranks . acas purging from its own ranks. acas anybody who is even slightly conservative in their in their, you know, under standing of doctrine and tradition . and so , doctrine and tradition. and so, so feeling , you know, helping so feeling, you know, helping people to not feel completely alienated from the church, from christianity in general . alienated from the church, from christianity in general. i think that gafcon is providing a service to those people , whether service to those people, whether or not they stay in the church of england . thank you, aaron. of england. thank you, aaron. wee— of england. thank you, aaron. wee ee— of england. thank you, aaron. we we enng— of england. thank you, aaron. wee ne nnng you— of england. thank you, aaron. just to bring you up- 3: thank you, aaron. just to bring you up to speed, eancow— just to bring you up to speed, gafcon represents about 80% of the gafcon represents about 80% of we aneneen— gafcon represents about 80% of the anglican communion around the anglican communion around ene—nww- the anglican communion around ene—nww n- the anglican communion around the—kyiv is small. the world, so the kyiv is small sewe— the world, so the kyiv is small scale compared,— the world, so the kyiv is small scale compared, but it obviously neeeneeuw— scale compared, but it obviously historically has— scale compared, but it obviously historically has the prestige of being— historically has the prestige of being-enwnen— historically has the prestige of being-church of- historically has the prestige of being church of england. now being the church of england. now we are we remain— being the church of england. now we are we remain orthodox and the we are we remain orthodox and we cnwen— we are we remain orthodox and we cnwen en— we are we remain orthodox and the church of england is pushing a more modern— the church of england is pushing a more modern idea of the church ente— a more modern idea of the church enee eneee— a more modern idea of the church onto those other— a more modern idea of the church onto those other countries . do onto those other countries. do you— onto those other countries. do wen ennn— onto those other countries. do you new enn— onto those other countries. do you think this is— onto those other countries. do you think this is a— onto those other countries. do you think this is a new form of eewennnen — you think this is a new form of colonialism when— you think this is a new form of colonialism when the church of england— colonialism when the church of england we— colonialism when the church of england is saying,— colonialism when the church of england is saying, actually, you guys— england is saying, actually, you ewe-annea— england is saying, actually, you guyslafrica-to- england is saying, actually, you guys africa to catch up guys in africa need to catch up winn— guys in africa need to catch up ween-newne— guys in africa need to catch up with - norms - allowi guys in africa need to catch up with sex norms allow guys in africa need to catch up with sex blessings allow guys in africa need to catch up with sex blessings and allow same sex blessings and all this enun— same sex blessings and all this sewn—newne- stuff that we're doing to because— stuff that we're doing toi because—old because you guys are old weenienee— because you guys are old fashioned—,i because you guys are old- fashioned_, that's fashioned now. i mean, that's ene— fashioned now. i mean, that's

ene nneew— fashioned now. i mean, that's ene neeew en— fashioned now. i mean, that's the history of the— fashioned now. i mean, that's the history of the church of england,— the history of the church of england, in— the history of the church of england, if you _ the history of the church of england, if you don't mind me sewing,— england, if you don't mind me sewing, in— england, if you don't mind me sewing, in pene— england, if you don't mind me saying, in parts of— england, if you don't mind me saying, in parts of the global sewn— saying, in parts of the global sewn wen-e— saying, in parts of the global south, isn't-i— saying, in parts of the global south, isn't-i mean,- saying, in parts of the global south, isn't it? i mean, so that's necessarily that's not necessarily a surprise. i think there's probably for probably a good argument for that as the social that in so much as the social mores of one country not applying necessarily another applying necessarily to another . but i would add , i think the . but i would add, i think the quintessential problem here for the church of england is, like i've said before , the i've said before, the relationship to the state and ultimately we live in a relatively secular liberal society, nation the society, nation state. the united kingdom, king charles, the third is the, you know, the head of church england. head of the church of england. so in so i think you're in a particular here. it's a particular bind here. it's a very set circumstances very unique set of circumstances . but like you say, these aren't really things that religious communities and the and the global south are really pursuing. you see it more in the us, i think with episcopal churches sort of leading the way and they say actually, you know, to people such as yourself, you know, follow the path that we've laid down. but when it comes to the global south, it's rather different . i think it's different. i think it's obviously a it's a bad look. if you people in britain,

you have people in britain, europe necessarily telling people in sub—saharan africa how they should live their lives. however, time , you however, at the same time, you know, that shouldn't be infringing on people's human rights. again, this is rights. and again, maybe this is something on, but something we disagree on, but i think there are certain fundamental human rights. i think has think somebody has the fundamental with fundamental right to live with a partner of their choosing. i think at the same time, you have to balance religious freedoms and say, well, if the church isn't you isn't going to necessarily, you know acknowledge as know, acknowledge that as religiously , well religiously acceptable, well then it's a balancing act. but as long as people aren't being targeted and harassed and intimidated violated on the intimidated and violated on the bafis intimidated and violated on the basis their sexual basis of their sexual preferences , i, you know, preferences, i, you know, i think that's permissible . and think that's permissible. and i think that's permissible. and i think business is think the church's business is their business is fantastic. well, see our viewers well, let's see what our viewers are well, let's see what our viewersi are saying before we move on to the are saying before we move on to ene-ween.— are saying before we move on to the-break. let's— the final break. let's have a week— the final break. let's have a week ee— the final break. let's have a look at what— the final break. let's have a look at what-had- the final break. let's have a look at what had to say look at what you've had to say anew— look at what you've had to say enewe wnee— look at what you've had to say about what we're— look at what you've had to say about what we're talking about teeny— about what we're talking about teeny-neste— about what we're talking about today easter special. today on our easter special. nnenn— today on our easter special.| thank—comments today on our easter special. - thank—comments on thank you for the comments on the thank you for the comments on ene—nw- thank you for the comments on ene—nw ene- thank you for the comments on ene—nw ene way-i thank you for the comments on the glad by the way. thank you for the comments on the glad some by the way. thank you for the comments on the glad some of by the way. thank you for the comments on the glad some of you the way. thank you for the comments on the glad some of you seemay. thank you for the comments on the glad some of you seem to i'm glad some of you seem to enjoy— i'm glad some of you seem toi enjew—wene enjoy that. lots of emails were popping— popping through. thank you, cewin—el popping through. thank you,- cewin—e wew calvin from christina for a very enj-ewewe— calvin from christina for a very enjoyable program. it showed us the enjoyable program. it showed us we wee— enjoyable program. it showed us the true meaning— enjoyable program. it showed us the true meaning of easter. your eneiee— the true meaning of easter. your eneiee en— the true meaning of easter. your choice of guests— the true meaning of easter. your choice of guests exceptional choice of guests was exceptional ene— choice of guests was exceptional and ne—

choice of guests was exceptional and the himars_ choice of guests was exceptional and the himars took me right been— and the himars took me right been-sweet— and the himars took me right back-school days.- and the himars took me right back school days. thank back to my school days. thank you— back to my school days. thank wen-nee— back to my school days. thank weaned-we,- back to my school days. thank you - god - no, thanki you and god bless. no, thank you,— you, christina. and god bless wen.— you, christina. and god bless wen-ene— you, christina. and god bless wen-ewe ni— you, christina. and god bless you.-said hi gb- you, christina. and god bless you. said hi gb news. you. kath said hi gb news. i we— you. kath said hi gb news. i we wane— you. kath said hi gb news. i we wene ee— you. kath said hi gb news. i just want to let— you. kath said hi gb news. i just want to let you know that my just want to let you know that nw-eeweneen- just want to let you know that my-daughter now- just want to let you know that my daughter now wants to my teenage daughter now wants to go—afler- go to an easter service after seeing— go to an easter service after seeing nnne— go to an easter service after seeing emma and calvin on your pregnan— seeing emma and calvin on your pnegnen. nnenw— seeing emma and calvin on your program. thank you for all. nnenn— program. thank you for all. wank-eu— program. thank you for all. thank all everything you thank you all for everything you are thank you all for everything you eeing. — thank you all for everything you doing-is— thank you all for everything you doing-is ee— thank you all for everything you are doing. is so lovely to are doing. that is so lovely to new— are doing. that is so lovely to hearithank_ are doing. that is so lovely to hear thank kathy. thank hear. thank you, kathy. thank you— hear. thank you, kathy. thank wen-eu— hear. thank you, kathy. thank wewleu en— hear. thank you, kathy. thank you-all of your— hear. thank you, kathy. thank you all of your comments. you for all of your comments. wease— you for all of your comments. please-ween— you for all of your comments. please keep coming in. please do keep them coming in. we please do keep them coming in. we ee— please do keep them coming in. we we see— please do keep them coming in. we do see them.— please do keep them coming in. we do see them. we do them we do see them. we do read them all. we do see them. we do read them eu- ane— we do see them. we do read them eu- ann enenn— we do see them. we do read them all. and thank you— we do see them. we do read them all. and thank you to my dual nee— lists this week, emma webb and weren— lists this week, emma webb andj aenen—enen aaron bastani. we will see them been—wen— aaron bastani. we will see them been—wen seen- both again very, very soon. coming— both again very, very soon. cenine-ene- both again very, very soon. coming the final part of coming up in the final part of my common sense crusade this ween— my common sense crusade this ween-newne- my common sense crusade thisi week,-talking-the week, we'll be talking about the wenwne—enenl worrying news that more than a newer— worrying news that more than a quarter-churches— worrying news that more than a quarter churches no longer quarter of churches no longer newe— quarter of churches no longer hold-services- quarter of churches no longer hold-services .-

well come back to the common

sense crusade— well come back to the common sense crusade with— well come back to the common sense crusade with me, the reverend— sense crusade with me, the reverend calvin _ sense crusade with me, the reverend calvin robinson on your tv reverend calvin robinson on your nv enune— reverend calvin robinson on your nv ennne ene— reverend calvin robinson on your tv online and on— reverend calvin robinson on your tv online and on your wireless . tv online and on your wireless. newer— tv online and on your wireless. newer teeny,— tv online and on your wireless. earlier today, i— tv online and on your wireless. earlier today, i took to twitter ene— earlier today, i took to twitter and asked— earlier today, i took to twitter and asked ,— earlier today, i took to twitter and asked , wru— earlier today, i took to twitter and asked , will your easter and asked, will your easter celebrations— and asked, will your easter celebrations be— and asked, will your easter celebrations be mostly christian in enene— celebrations be mostly christian in enene en— celebrations be mostly christian in theme or entirely secular ? in theme or entirely secular? nee-e— in theme or entirely secular? nee-e ene— in theme or entirely secular? here's the result— in theme or entirely secular? here's the result of the polls ene— here's the result of the polls and eenn— here's the result of the polls and eenw en— here's the result of the polls and 66.1% of you— here's the result of the polls and 66.1% of you said you would eeweweee— and 66.1% of you said you would eeweweee in— and 66.1% of you said you would celebrate in traditional christian— celebrate in traditional christian ways , and 33.9 of you christian ways, and 33.9 of you ene— christian ways, and 33.9 of you ewe enn— christian ways, and 33.9 of you ewe enee wen— christian ways, and 33.9 of you said that you would have a eeewe— said that you would have a secular observance that is actually— secular observance that is actually e— secular observance that is actually a very- secular observance that is actually a very surprising most newe— actually a very surprising most news i— actually a very surprising most news i ee— actually a very surprising most news n we en— actually a very surprising most polls i do on here— actually a very surprising most polls i do on here are nine over ten.— polls i do on here are nine over een. se— polls i do on here are nine over een. se enn— polls i do on here are nine over een. se new is— polls i do on here are nine over ten. so that is the— polls i do on here are nine over ten. so that is the closest one we've seen in a— ten. so that is the closest one we've seen in a long thank we've seen in a long time. thank you— we've seen in a long time. thank you-part— we've seen in a long time. thank wen-pen in— we've seen in a long time. thank wen-pen in my- you for taking part in my nwneen— you for taking part in my twitter-now- you for taking part in my. twitter-now-move twitter poll. now let's move on to twitter poll. now let's move on eeleinwen— twitter poll. now let's move on tolsimilar-final- to a similar topic. our final newe— to a similar topic. our final ween-new.— to a similar topic. our final topic-day..reportl to a similar topic. our final topic day. report has topic of the day. a report has newne— topic of the day. a report has newne enn— topic of the day. a report has found that a— topic of the day. a report has found that a decline of more men— found that a decline of more enen zon— found that a decline of more enen zen in— found that a decline of more than 20% in church service eneneenee— than 20% in church service attendance compared to pre—pandemic times may have more to pre—pandemic times may have more we ee— pre—pandemic times may have more we we win.— pre—pandemic times may have more we we win e— pre—pandemic times may have more to do with a lack— pre—pandemic times may have more to do with a lack of— pre—pandemic times may have more to do with a lack of services enen— to do with a lack of services enen e— to do with a lack of services enen e wen— to do with a lack of services than a drop in— to do with a lack of services than a drop in potential worshippers. _ than a drop in potential worshippers. stations in worshippers. stats stations in the worshippers. stats stations in we nieeeee— worshippers. stats stations in the diocese of— worshippers. stats stations in the diocese of oxford have built up the diocese of oxford have built we-wnen— the diocese of oxford have built up-which suggests- the diocese of oxford have built up which suggests that up a picture which suggests that for up a picture which suggests that fen ene— up a picture which suggests that fen ene fine— up a picture which suggests that for the first time— up a picture which suggests that for the first time in the church of for the first time in the church en england-e— for the first time in the church of england's history , more than of england's history, more than a of england's history, more than e-en— of england's history, more than a-of churches- of england's history, more than a-of churches do- of england's history, more than a of churches do not a quarter of churches do not new— a quarter of churches do not new e— a quarter of churches do not hold a service— a quarter of churches do not hold a service every sunday to

discuss— hold a service every sunday to discuss this,— hold a service every sunday to discuss this, i'm— hold a service every sunday to discuss this, i'm delighted to weennewe— discuss this, i'm delighted to welcome author,— discuss this, i'm delighted to welcome author, former chaplain to welcome author, former chaplain ee eween— welcome author, former chaplain to queen elizabeth— welcome author, former chaplain to queen elizabeth ii and great friend— to queen elizabeth ii and great friend en— to queen elizabeth ii and great friend en ene— to queen elizabeth ii and great friend of the show , dr. gavin friend of the show, dr. gavin aeneneen.— friend of the show, dr. gavin ashenden. dr.— friend of the show, dr. gavin ashenden. dr. gavin ashenden. nnenn— ashenden. dr. gavin ashenden. nnenn wen— ashenden. dr. gavin ashenden. nnenn you very— ashenden. dr. gavin ashenden. thank you very much for joining us thank you very much for joining we en new— thank you very much for joining us on holy saturday. what do you mine— us on holy saturday. what do you new is— us on holy saturday. what do you new is going— us on holy saturday. what do you think is going on— us on holy saturday. what do you think is going on here? why? why is think is going on here? why? why n were— think is going on here? why? why is enene e— think is going on here? why? why is there a massive— think is going on here? why? why is there a massive appearance of a is there a massive appearance of enwne-nn ewe- is there a massive appearance of a-numbers due to- a drop in numbers due to services— a drop in numbers due to services nee— a drop in numbers due to services not necessarily the fennel— services not necessarily the nennnw e — services not necessarily the faithful .7 calvin- services not necessarily the faithful ? " services not necessarily the faithful? " faithful? calvin thank you for having me on. and happy easter to you and everyone. there's a there complex reasons behind there are complex reasons behind this, think if one was to this, but i think if one was to choose an overriding cause or reason, i would say that obviously there aren't enough clergy, there aren't enough people, but there hasn't been enough faith . if one of the enough faith. if one of the things haven't had from things we haven't had from particularly the church of particularly from the church of england , are leaders england, are our leaders speaking about the speaking out about the distinctiveness of christianity as opposed to a kind of liberal humanism which mimics radio four, and that kind of culture. so it's too few people and too little conviction and courage. well until 2019, it was also a legal requirement, wasn't it, for churches to hold a service

on a sunday. and i think they deepen— on a sunday. and i think they dropped enn— on a sunday. and i think they dropped that that— wzw" ca and i think they dropped that that seems cw" ca and i think they dropped that that seems to be a newne— dropped that that seems to be a nwewene in— dropped that that seems to be a nwewene in my— dropped that that seems to be a mistake in my eyes. but why? why ween— mistake in my eyes. but why? why upon-that— mistake in my eyes. but why? why upon _that, would- mistake in my eyes. but why? why upon that, would the upon dropping that, would the nwnnen— upon dropping that, would the nwnnenlwe— upon dropping that, would the numberiis that— upon dropping that, would the number is that because of, drop too? is that because of, une— drop too? is that because of, we wen— drop too? is that because of, we you sew— drop too? is that because of, we you saw e— drop too? is that because of, like you say, a lack of faith, or like you say, a lack of faith, en we— like you say, a lack of faith, en we we— like you say, a lack of faith, en we we wee— like you say, a lack of faith, or is it just lack— like you say, a lack of faith, or is it just lack of resources? i or is it just lack of resources? w knew— or is it just lack of resources? w knew ew— or is it just lack of resources? i know of many,— or is it just lack of resources? i know of many, i'm sure you knew— i know of many, i'm sure you knowlmany_ i know of many, i'm sure you knowlmany-and- i know of many, i'm sure you. know-many-and priests know of many vicars and priests wnew—neee— know of many vicars and priests that made responsible that have been made responsible for that have been made responsible wen—we- for benefices of like 14 churches,— for benefices of like 14. churches,-totally churches, which is totally unmanageable , isn't it? well, it unmanageable, isn't it? well, it neeww— unmanageable, isn't it? well, it neeww we. — unmanageable, isn't it? well, it neeww we. we— unmanageable, isn't it? well, it really is. it's a— unmanageable, isn't it? well, it really is. it's a it's— unmanageable, isn't it? well, it really is. c c really is. it's a it's this complete change from being a pansh complete change from being a parish priest to being a manager of . and the poor of monuments. and the poor clergy of the church of england have chance whatsoever. have got no chance whatsoever. it's not just that have it's not just that they have four buildings, them four buildings, some of them or six there are four six buildings. there are four picks for central committees as the legalism , the safeguarding the legalism, the safeguarding the legalism, the safeguarding the paperwork erg make being an apostle of christ and a shepherd of the of believers almost impossible to deliver. and so the problem is for as long as they continue to try and make they continue to try and make the system work with fewer resources , you have a vicious resources, you have a vicious circle and people lose . people circle and people lose. people lose whatever confidence they had in the first place. but the really thing is this really important thing is this belief and the belief

belief in christ and the belief that transformed that lives can be transformed and that's where you start. but that to be the bottom that seems to be at the bottom of list you think a solution of the list you think a solution might i might suggest that, might be. i might suggest that, for might be. i might suggest that, wen—enwnen- for example, the church commission,— for example, the church commission, which has, what, £10 nwwwwen— commission, which has, what, £10 billion-assets,- commission, which has, what, £10 billion-assets, could- billion worth of assets, could even— billion worth of assets, could ewen sene— billion worth of assets, could divert some of— billion worth of assets, could divert some of those assets to penenee— divert some of those assets to penenee-ewe- divert some of those assets to parishes-sure that. divert some of those assets to parishes sure that every parishes to make sure that every penen— parishes to make sure that every penen-newe— parishes to make sure that every penen-newe e— parishes to make sure that every parish have a parish parish does have a parish priest ene— parish does have a parish priest end-enen-w— parish does have a parish priest and aren't overworked and people aren't overworked and een-w— aren't trying to manage multiple penenee— aren't trying to manage multiple penenee-.— aren't trying to manage multiple parishes-. that- aren't trying to manage multiple parishes . that might be aren't trying to manage multiple pdon'tws . that might be aren't trying to manage multiple pdon't know . that might be aren't trying to manage multiple pdon't know if . that might be aren't trying to manage multiple pdon't know if it'sthat might be aren't trying to manage multiple pdon't know if it's practical,t be i don't know if it's practical, ewe— i don't know if it's practical,| but—solution. but that might be a solution. wnew— but that might be a solution. wnew-wnwnn- but that might be a solution. what think might be? oh, what do you think might be? oh, no, what do you think might be? oh, ne—eennwewew- no, i think it's completely weeneew. — no, i think it's completely practical. we— no, i think it's completely practical. �*vw�*wz; : no, i think it's completely- practical. we know already that archbishop who very archbishop welby, who is a very competent of competent manager of organisations, has managed to persuade the church commissioners to change their rules to allow him dip into rules to allow him to dip into their enormous funds for his own projects. the trouble is this is not a bad idea, but the project hasn't produced anything. i think the church england in think the church of england in its throes and if its last death throes and if they have £10 billion, would spend it all on on an enormous evangelistic exercise to try and take the burden of administration off the backs of the clergy. one last gasp. tell

our community about the wonders , the good news of jesus rather than to sink into this awful swamp of maladministration . and swamp of maladministration. and in our last 30 seconds, gavin, wnew— in our last 30 seconds, gavin, wnew ee— in our last 30 seconds, gavin, wnew wen— in our last 30 seconds, gavin, what are you going to be doing for what are you going to be doing new e— what are you going to be doing new e wen— what are you going to be doing for a vigil tonight— what are you going to be doing for a vigil tonight and or mass in ne— for a vigil tonight and or mass in the morning— for a vigil tonight and or mass in the morning? _ for a vigil tonight and or mass in the morning? " �*" for a vigil tonight and or mass in the morning ? " �*" in the morning? in five minutes time? i'm leaping off to the vigil mass tonight. time? i'm leaping off to the vigil mass tonight . then i shall vigil mass tonight. then i shall go to a 9:00 service in the morning. then i'm going to have a massive slap up brekkie just to celebrate the risen joy of easter and spend the rest of the day being so grateful that death is not the end . forgiveness is is not the end. forgiveness is unlimited. all all our lives have the most profound meaning. and thanks, thanks to christ for doing it all for us. well, god bless you. have a wonderful neewen— bless you. have a wonderful easter. thank— bless you. have a wonderful easter. thank you— have a wonderful easter. thank you very much. new— easter. thank you very much. new wee— easter. thank you very much. that was author— easter. thank you very much. that was author and former cnwen— church of england priest gavin aeneneen. — church of england priest gavin ashenden. _on- church of england priest gavin ashenden. on this ashenden. each week on this new,— ashenden. each week on this enew, we— ashenden. each week on this show, we like— ashenden. each week on this show, we like to— ashenden. each week on this show, we like to end with our eweewne— show, we like to end with our eweewne-nene— show, we like to end with our closing-herelthe. closing prayer. here is the eewweew— closing prayer. here is the collect-even- closing prayer. here is the. collect-even grant collect of easter. even grant 0 were,— collect of easter. even grant 0 were-ee— collect of easter. even grant 0 were-es we— collect of easter. even grant 0 lord,-as we bapt- collect of easter. even grant 0 lord, as we bapt excuse me lord, that as we bapt excuse me , wann— lord, that as we bapt excuse me , ennw, 0— lord, that as we bapt excuse me , ennw, 0 were,— lord, that as we bapt excuse me , grant, 0 lord, that— lord, that as we bapt excuse me , grant, 0 lord, that as we are banned— , grant, 0 lord, that as we are banned inne— , grant, 0 lord, that as we are baptised into the— , grant, 0 lord, that as we are baptised into the death of thy eweeeee— baptised into the death of thy eweeeee sen— baptised into the death of thy blessed son, our— baptised into the death of thy blessed son, our saviour, jesus cnnew. — blessed son, our saviour, jesus

cnnew. se— blessed son, our saviour, jesus cnnew. se ew— blessed son, our saviour, jesus christ. so by continual nenwwwng— christ. so by continual mortifying our corrupt affections, _ mortifying our corrupt affections, we may be buried wwwn— affections, we may be buried wwwn nin— affections, we may be buried with him and— affections, we may be buried with him and that through the enve— with him and that through the grave ene— with him and that through the grave and gene— with him and that through the grave and gate of death we may ense— grave and gate of death we may pass en— grave and gate of death we may pass en we— grave and gate of death we may neee en we ew— grave and gate of death we may pass on to our joyful resurrection- pass on to our joyful resurrection for his merits, who wee— resurrection for his merits, who died ene— resurrection for his merits, who new and we— resurrection for his merits, who died and was buried and rose newn— died and was buried and rose again wen— died and was buried and rose egewn few we— died and was buried and rose again for us. thy— died and was buried and rose again for us. thy son, jesus cnnn— again for us. thy son, jesus cnnew, ew— again for us. thy son, jesus christ, our lord. _ again for us. thy son, jesus christ, our lord. amen. you have been— christ, our lord. amen. you have been wewenbne— christ, our lord. amen. you have been watching calvin's common sense crusade with— been watching calvin's common sense crusade with me, the reverend— sense crusade with me, the reverend calvin _ sense crusade with me, the reverend calvin robinson. do not been— reverend calvin robinson. do not feneew ew— reverend calvin robinson. do not forget our easter— reverend calvin robinson. do not forget our easter special airs newn— forget our easter special airs again tomorrow— forget our easter special airs again tomorrow at £0.06 pm. and wnen— again tomorrow at £0.06 pm. and wnen wu— again tomorrow at £0.06 pm. and wnen m be— again tomorrow at £0.06 pm. and then i'll be back— again tomorrow at £0.06 pm. and then i'll be back with you guys new— then i'll be back with you guys new-en— then i'll be back with you guys next-on saturday- then i'll be back with you guys next on saturday at 7 pm. next week. on saturday at 7 pm. up new,— next week. on saturday at 7 pm. up new, be— next week. on saturday at 7 pm. up new, be ene— next week. on saturday at 7 pm. up next, it's the saturday five. betwe— up next, it's the saturday five. benene enab— up next, it's the saturday five. before that, it's— up next, it's the saturday five. before that, it's your weather neweeeeb— before that, it's your weather neweeeee .— before that, it's your weather forecast . have— before that, it's your weather forecast . have an absolutely forecast. have an absolutely weneenww— forecast. have an absolutely wonderful easter. god bless you all. wonderful easter. god bless you at bnenn— wonderful easter. god bless you at bnenn yew— wonderful easter. god bless you all. thank you very— wonderful easter. god bless you all. thank you very much . all. thank you very much. bbeeben— all. thank you very much. diaspora hello— all. thank you very much. diaspora hello there . diaspora hello there. i'm jonathan— diaspora hello there. i'm jonathan vautrey here with your latest weather update from the met office have you been enjoying the easter weekend so far? there has been plenty of fine weather we'll continue fine weather and we'll continue to more of that into sunday. to see more of that into sunday. there are fronts out in the atlantic. there slow only atlantic. there are slow only going make their progress going to make their progress towards uk, but high towards the uk, but high pressure keeping bay pressure is keeping them at bay for and keeping pressure is keeping them at bay for fairly and keeping pressure is keeping them at bay for fairly fineand keeping pressure is keeping them at bay for fairly fine and

just more of a breeze just a bit more of a breeze across areas and that across western areas and that will be strengthening as we head throughout this throughout the rest of this evening tonight. evening and through tonight. but many dry and many of us will remain dry and with some clear intervals , some with some clear intervals, some low cloud pushing into for parts of eastern england and scotland as well. maybe a few fog patches around. but with the breeze and the increasing cloud, temperatures drop too far temperatures won't drop too far in most towns and cities will hold around 5 or 6 c. could hold up around 5 or 6 c. could be a bit a murky start again be a bit of a murky start again in east. but as the breeze in the east. but as the breeze again strengthens here, that should lift some should hopefully help lift some of out of the way. of that cloud out of the way. and of england , wales and and most of england, wales and scotland see sunny scotland should see some sunny intervals the intervals throughout the day. the sunshine, will be the sunshine, though, will be turning hazy as this from turning hazy as this cloud from the west and we'll see the west pushes in and we'll see some of rain into some outbreaks of rain into northern ireland later on and temperatures up temperatures climbing up compared to saturday around 16 to 18 c. but in that strengthening breeze, it will just take the edge off the feel of things into the overnight penod of things into the overnight period where we'll start to see that more that rain pushed more widely across of the uk. could across the rest of the uk. could be heavier bursts that be some heavier bursts on that cross scotland parts of cross scotland into parts of northern as then

northern england as well. then as into the early parts as we head into the early parts of monday, it will be clearing its the far southeast, its way off the far southeast, potentially lingering here potentially just lingering here for while throughout for a little while throughout the into start the morning and into the start of afternoon. behind that , of the afternoon. behind that, though, many of us will see a barrage of showers pushed their way in on monday. some of way in on monday. and some of those heavy at times those could be heavy at times with the risk of some hail and thunder. and generally, that sets us up the scene of some sets us up for the scene of some unsettled weather for the rest of the we do have eyes unsettled weather for the rest of this we do have eyes unsettled weather for the rest of this area we do have eyes unsettled weather for the rest of this area ofe do have eyes unsettled weather for the rest of this area of low have eyes unsettled weather for the rest of this area of low pressure eyes on this area of low pressure that could bring some slightly stronger winds, particularly in the as we head the south and west, as we head tuesday wednesday tuesday night into wednesday day. so do just keep up to date with forecast in regards with the forecast in regards to that. otherwise enjoy your evening. bye .

channel. iwelcome channel- iwelcome to cbennew— i welcome to mark cbenneb— . welcome to mark dolan channel welcome to mark dolan tonight with . welcome to mark dolan tonight wnn ne— . welcome to mark dolan tonight wnn seebnen— . welcome to mark dolan tonight with me, stephen allen— welcome to mark dolan tonight with me, stephen allen standing in with me, stephen allen standing bn—weenene- with me, stephen allen standing bn—weenene. - with me, stephen allen standingi in _weekend . while in for mark all weekend. while he in for mark all weekend. while be enjoye— in for mark all weekend. while be enjoys e— in for mark all weekend. while he enjoys a well—earned easter break. mark break. don't worry though, mark doesn't boring, neither break. don't worry though, mark do

good evening. i'm bethany elsey wnn wewn beb— good evening. i'm bethany elsey with your top stories from the gb newsroom.— with your top stories from the gb newsroom. and we'll start wnn— gb newsroom. and we'll start wnn ee— gb newsroom. and we'll start with some breaking news . two with some breaking news. two bnnen— with some breaking news. two british israeli_ with some breaking news. two british israeli sisters who were wbwee— british israeli sisters who were wwbee bn— british israeli sisters who were kitted in the _ british israeli sisters who were killed in the occupied west bank weebeneew— killed in the occupied west bank weebeneew newe— killed in the occupied west bank yesterday have been by yesterday have been named by weneeb-e— yesterday have been named by israel's prime— yesterday have been named by israel's prime minister. rina newe— israel's prime minister. rina inaya sakaran_ israel's prime minister. rina inaya sakaran were shot in their bene— inaya sakaran were shot in their nene bn— inaya sakaran were shot in their nene in web— inaya sakaran were shot in their home in their car— inaya sakaran were shot in their home in their car near an weneeb— home in their car near an israeli settlement. their mother bn— israeli settlement. their mother in e— israeli settlement. their mother remains in a critical condition in benjamin— remains in a critical condition in benjamin netanyahu offered his condolences— in benjamin netanyahu offered his condolences to the family on beneb— his condolences to the family on beneb ef— his condolences to the family on beneb en en— his condolences to the family on behalf of all the— his condolences to the family on behalf of all the citizens of beet.— behalf of all the citizens of weneeb. ene— behalf of all the citizens of israel. the uk— behalf of all the citizens of israel. the uk foreign office is eating— israel. the uk foreign office is eating fen— israel. the uk foreign office is eating new e— israel. the uk foreign office is calling for a de—escalation in benebene— calling for a de—escalation in tensions between— calling for a de—escalation in tensions between israel and neweenne— tensions between israel and palestine after— tensions between israel and palestine after several british ebnzene— palestine after several british citizens were _ palestine after several british citizens were caught up in a en— citizens were caught up in a series of attacks— citizens were caught up in a series of attacks . 31 ukrainian series of attacks. 31 ukrainian enbwenen— series of attacks. 31 ukrainian children who— series of attacks. 31 ukrainian children who were taken from eeewbbee— children who were taken from occupied areas— children who were taken from occupied areas during the war newe— occupied areas during the war newe been— occupied areas during the war have been returned and reunited wnn— have been returned and reunited web web— have been returned and reunited with their families— have been returned and reunited with their families . moscow with their families. moscow benbee— with their families. moscow denies abducting the children ene— denies abducting the children ene ewe— denies abducting the children and eewe enew— denies abducting the children and says they were taken away for and says they were taken away new web— and says they were taken away new new ewn— and says they were taken away for their own safety. kyiv . for their own safety. kyiv. beebneeee— for their own safety. kyiv. estimates 19,500 ukrainian enbwenen— estimates 19,500 ukrainian children have— estimates 19,500 ukrainian children have been deported to tween— children have been deported to web ebeen— children have been deported to russia since the— children have been deported to russia since the invasion began beet— russia since the invasion began weeb newn— russia since the invasion began last month. the— russia since the invasion began last month. the international cnnbneb— last month. the international criminal court—

last month. the international criminal court issued an arrest