well . well. this . well. - this . good wen.— this . good morning and happy this. good morning and happy easter— this. good morning and happy easter sunday.— this. good morning and happy easter sunday. now, don't readjust— easter sunday. now, don't readjust your— easter sunday. now, don't readjust your sets. camilla tominey— readjust your sets. camilla tominey will— readjust your sets. camilla tominey will be back next week. this— tominey will be back next week. this is— tominey will be back next week. this is christopher— tominey will be back next week. this is christopher hope standing— this is christopher hope standing in.— this is christopher hope standing in. we've got a busy show— standing in. we've got a busy show coming— standing in. we've got a busy show coming up.— standing in. we've got a busy show coming up. we'll be speaking— show coming up. we'll be speaking to— show coming up. we'll be speaking to douglas ross , the speaking to douglas ross, the leader— speaking to douglas ross, the leader of— speaking to douglas ross, the leader of the _ speaking to douglas ross, the leader of the scottish tory party. — leader of the scottish tory party. ws-u— leader of the scottish tory party. we'll speak to the pollster— party. we'll speak to the pollster and— party. we'll speak to the pollster and academic matthew goodwin— pollster and academic matthew goodwin-ms— pollster and academic matthew goodwin-his new- pollster and academic matthew goodwin his new book, goodwin about his new book, which— goodwin about his new book, which-been— goodwin about his new book, which been making goodwin about his new book, which-been making waves which has been making some waves in westminster— which has been making some waves in westminster-me- which has been making some waves in westminster me and all in westminster behind me and all we. — in westminster behind me and all over twitter,.course._ in westminster behind me and all over twitter, course. and 25 over twitter, of course. and 25 years— over twitter, of course. and 25 years an— over twitter, of course. and 25 years are from — over twitter, of course. and 25 years on from the— over twitter, of course. and 25 years on from the good friday agreement— years on from the good friday agreement ,— years on from the good friday agreement , we'll— years on from the good friday agreement , we'll be hearing years on from the good friday agreement, we'll be hearing for one-agreement's- agreement, we'll be hearing for one agreement's key one of the agreement's key prayers— one of the agreement's key players,-ahern,- one of the agreement's key players, ahern, who's players, bertie ahern, who's been — players, bertie ahern, who's beers-ra- players, bertie ahern, who's. beer-ra-news been speaking to my gb news satteagae— been speaking to my gb news colleague,-foster- been speaking to my gb news colleague, foster . but colleague, arlene foster. but for au— colleague, arlene foster. but for at rear,— colleague, arlene foster. but for all that, let's— colleague, arlene foster. but for all that, let's go to the front— for all that, let's go to the from pages— for all that, let's go to the front pages now- for all that, let's go to the front pages now . first up, will front pages now. first up, will saraay— front pages now. first up, will sunday telegraph tories at war

a past— sunday telegraph tories at war over a pact with— sunday telegraph tories at war over a pact with labour in searrarrae— over a pact with labour in scotland? more- over a pact with labour in scotland? more on that from oaagras— scotland? more on that from oaagras reass— scotland? more on that from douglas ross a— scotland? more on that from douglas ross a bit later on. near— douglas ross a bit later on. next upr— douglas ross a bit later on. rear up, rhe— douglas ross a bit later on. next up, the sunday times. douglas ross a bit later on. next up, the sunday times . its next up, the sunday times. its rreaaurre— next up, the sunday times. its rreaarrrre says— next up, the sunday times. its headline says labour ba's dirty triers— headline says labour ba's dirty tricks here— headline says labour ba's dirty tricks here to— headline says labour ba's dirty tricks here to stay— headline says labour ba's dirty tricks here to stay says memo. rear-s— tricks here to stay says memo. rear-s arrear— tricks here to stay says memo. that's about the _ tricks here to stay says memo. that's about the ad the adverts on that's about the ad the adverts arr sacral— that's about the ad the adverts on social media— that's about the ad the adverts on social media with missing arrear— on social media with missing about reser— on social media with missing about rishi sunak. next one is the observer— about rishi sunak. next one is the observer .— about rishi sunak. next one is the observer. hospitals in frame— the observer. hospitals in frantic bid— the observer. hospitals in frantic bid to— the observer. hospitals in frantic bid to fill gaps left by rosters— frantic bid to fill gaps left by doctors strike.— frantic bid to fill gaps left by doctors strike. and of course, rear-s— doctors strike. and of course, treats are— doctors strike. and of course, treats are big— doctors strike. and of course, that's the big strike coming tras— that's the big strike coming this week,— that's the big strike coming this week, which is worrying marry— this week, which is worrying marry peepre— this week, which is worrying marry peepre .— this week, which is worrying many people . sunday mirror says many people. sunday mirror says i'll many people. sunday mirror says r-u fram— many people. sunday mirror says r-u fight gangs— many people. sunday mirror says i'll fight gangs and guns for my for i'll fight gangs and guns for my far my— i'll fight gangs and guns for my far my rrre. — i'll fight gangs and guns for my for my live. that's— i'll fight gangs and guns for my for my live. that's from cheryl caaaweu— for my live. that's from cheryl caudwell olivia _ for my live. that's from cheryl caudwell olivia pratt—korbel mother— caudwell olivia pratt—korbel hether .— caudwell olivia pratt—korbel mother . sunday— caudwell olivia pratt—korbel mother. sunday express caudwell olivia pratt—korbel mother . sunday express says caudwell olivia pratt—korbel mother. sunday express says king to rescue rishi.— mother. sunday express says king to rescue rishi. that's not meant— to rescue rishi. that's not literally even— to rescue rishi. that's not literally even a- to rescue rishi. that's not literally even a polls are pretty— literally even a polls are pretty hat— literally even a polls are pretty bad at— literally even a polls are pretty bad at the moment. that's about— pretty bad at the moment. that's about the— pretty bad at the moment. that's about the coronation falling shorth— about the coronation falling shertty after— about the coronation falling shortly after the local elections, _ shortly after the local elections, which could be ttttteatt— elections, which could be difficult for— elections, which could be difficult for the tory party . difficult for the tory party. hatt— difficult for the tory party. that oh— difficult for the tory party. mail on sunday, charles odds wtth— mail on sunday, charles odds wtth shareh— mail on sunday, charles odds with church over— mail on sunday, charles odds with church over his diverse arahattah— with church over his diverse coronation and— with church over his diverse coronation and more on that with htshah— coronation and more on that with htshah atat— coronation and more on that with bishop alan smith— coronation and more on that with bishop alan smith later on. and heath,— bishop alan smith later on. and thatty, the—

bishop alan smith later on. and finally, the sun— bishop alan smith later on. and finally, the sun on— bishop alan smith later on. and finally, the sun on sunday, i'm going— finally, the sun on sunday, i'm going to— finally, the sun on sunday, i'm going to smash— finally, the sun on sunday, i'm going to smash it— finally, the sun on sunday, i'm going to smash it on tour. that-s— going to smash it on tour. that's about— going to smash it on tour. that's about the tragic death of s that's about the tragic death of s ctah— that's about the tragic death of s that seen— that's about the tragic death of s club seven star— that's about the tragic death of s club seven star paul cattermole _ s club seven star paul cattermole .- s club seven star paul cattermole . now with me now to cattermole. now with me now to assess— cattermole. now with me now to ttseass the— cattermole. now with me now to discuss the papers— cattermole. now with me now to discuss the papers is john sergeant,— discuss the papers is john sergeant, a— discuss the papers is john sergeant, a former bbc political reporter.— sergeant, a former bbc political reporter. reha— sergeant, a former bbc political reporter. john it's— sergeant, a former bbc political reporter. john it's great to have— reporter. john it's great to have yet— reporter. john it's great to have yet — reporter. john it's great to have you on. absolute legend. in terms— have you on. absolute legend. in terms at— have you on. absolute legend. in terms of political— have you on. absolute legend. in terms of political reporting stretes— terms of political reporting arches-year- terms of political reporting. circles-your-pick circles, what's your first pick tram— circles, what's your first pick tram-haters? - circles, what's your first pick from papers? kathi“ circles, what's your first pick from papers? from the papers? well, i think choosing this this storm, they say it's over a war over the de—man eyes. yes. we think of it as a demonised question, because if you remember years ago in the 97 election, they had this amazing ad with tony blair with eyes that were flashed making him look like a demon. well that's being compared with this present row about these highly personalised attacks that the labour party are putting out with some of their leading figures, including lord blunkett, saying we shouldn't do this . so blunkett, saying we shouldn't do this. so that's blunkett, saying we shouldn't do this . so that's the blunkett, saying we shouldn't do this. so that's the argument that's going on. the times story, the sunday times story is simply saying they're going to pursue this. they're going to go on doing right up until the on doing this right up until the

election. not election. now, that does not surprise me . i think it's surprise me. i think it's a tactic which we can easily understand, which is going directly for rishi sunak. why because he's the number one asset on the tories side. but also and this is maybe a more sort of not such an obvious point, they've got to get across the idea that labour represents change, age and rich . obe sunak change, age and rich. obe sunak mustn't be allowed to say but i'm change. it's not 13 years of conservative government. i am the change now in a political argument. traditional argument, the biggest slogan in an election, the most important slogan is time for a change. so both parties, both major parties will be fighting to claim that we are the party of change. so don't be surprised if this goes right on up to the election. but he's been there six months or hash-t— but he's been there six months or so, hasn't he?— but he's been there six months or so, hasn't he? and he's not hers— or so, hasn't he? and he's not boris johnson. _ or so, hasn't he? and he's not boris johnson. that's his charge.— boris johnson. that's his ehahae. aha— boris johnson. that's his change. and labour think, well, he-s— change. and labour think, well, hes—she- change. and labour think, well, he's—since 2020| he's been in power since 2020 tea.— he's been in power since 2020 tea-that— he's been in power since 2020 ten.-that tories- he's been in power since 2020 ten. that tories argue ten. of course that tories argue arty— ten. of course that tories argue ehty reatt— ten. of course that tories argue only really been— ten. of course that tories argue only really been in— ten. of course that tories argue only really been in power on her— only really been in power oni their_ because only really been in power on- their_ because the their own since 2019 because the or their own since 2019 because the ar the— their own since 2019 because the ar the zo— their own since 2019 because the

ar the 20 year— their own since 2019 because the or the 20 year 2019,— their own since 2019 because the or the 20 year 2019, the first all or the 20 year 2019, the first at that— or the 20 year 2019, the first all that period— or the 20 year 2019, the first all that period until then was shared— all that period until then was shared power— all that period until then was shared power with other parties hur— shared power with other parties our aha— shared power with other parties our and the— shared power with other parties dup and the lib— shared power with other parties dup and the lib dems. but going hast— dup and the lib dems. but going hast ta— dup and the lib dems. but going hast ta-rherhart— dup and the lib dems. but going back to memory there of back to the memory there of terhahtset— back to the memory there of demonised that— back to the memory there of demonised that poster. now what-s— demonised that poster. now what's interesting, that poster was—weat- what's interesting, that poster was—went aatl what's interesting, that poster. was—went out did was never actually went out did it? was never actually went out did “7.310“— was never actually went out did it?.you remember— was never actually went out did it? you remember so i think it? if you remember so i think so nor is this— it? if you remember so i think so nor is this advert we're seetna— so nor is this advert we're seetng thts— so nor is this advert we're seeing this week about sunak. it's seeing this week about sunak. tt-sltnttter, — seeing this week about sunak. it's-twitter, but— seeing this week about sunak. it's twitter, but it's not on it's on twitter, but it's not on any— it's on twitter, but it's not on any billboards— it's on twitter, but it's not on any billboards yet. so i wonder whether— any billboards yet. so i wonder whether-hat- any billboards yet. so i wonder whether-had in- any billboards yet. so i wonder whether had in the old whether what you had in the old tats— whether what you had in the old days was— whether what you had in the old days was-at— whether what you had in the old days was-at tre— whether what you had in the old days was of pre twitter days was a kind of pre twitter starrn— days was a kind of pre twitter starrn sure.— days was a kind of pre twitter storm. sure. about the de—man. newt— storm. sure. about the de—man. haw-happens— storm. sure. about the de—man. now,-happens that- storm. sure. about the de—man. now,-happens that way. now, it often happens that way because they really want is because what they really want is the don't want the publicity. they don't want publicity. yeah, publicity. they get it. yeah, they they're getting they don't. yes they're getting in spades, which is, of course, what all about. and giving what it's all about. and giving the cutting the impression they're cutting through so to through on a major issue. so to some the details for the some extent, the details for the campaigners matter very campaigners don't matter very much, except they're saying , you much, except they're saying, you know, he's not that great. this rishi sunak. and that's all they want to get across because he hasn't been in power for that time. he's only been mp since zeta.— time. he's only been mp since zeta. sure.— time. he's only been mp since 2015. sure. you— c he's only been mp since 2015. sure. you know, he's haretw— 2015. sure. you know, he's haretw teen— 2015. sure. you know, he's barely been a— 2015. sure. you know, he's barely been a minister for any of barely been a minister for any at thts— barely been a minister for any at thts-ant— barely been a minister for any of this-and he's- barely been a minister for any of this and he's been of this time and he's been named— of this time and he's been htanet tar— of this time and he's been blamed for this- of this time and he's been blamed for this 12 tory blamed for this 12 year tory resort— blamed for this 12 year tory resent hat— blamed for this 12 year tory record. but if— blamed for this 12 year tory record. but if you imagine what

happened— record. but if you imagine what hannenet when— record. but if you imagine what happened when was happened when john major was ttghttng— happened when john major was fighting-kinnock- happened when john major was fighting kinnock neil fighting neil kinnock neil htnnaet— fighting neil kinnock neil kinnock—the| fighting neil kinnock neil- kinnock_the polls, kinnock was ahead in the polls, he saws— kinnock was ahead in the polls, he says 92,— kinnock was ahead in the polls, he says 92, ho,— kinnock was ahead in the polls, he says 92, 90, 92— kinnock was ahead in the polls, he says 92, 90, 92 and everyone thought,— he says 92, 90, 92 and everyone thought, wett— he says 92, 90, 92 and everyone thought, well, neil— he says 92, 90, 92 and everyone thought, well, neil kinnock is going— thought, well, neil kinnock is getna-thts— thought, well, neil kinnock is going-this time.- thought, well, neil kinnock is going-this time. - thought, well, neil kinnock is going this time. 4:3. going to win this time. you thaw.— going to win this time. you know,-tories_ going to win this time. you know,-tories got- going to win this time. you know, tories got into a know, the tories got into a mess, not going work. mess, it's not going to work. john won because he john major won because he represented it. the represented wait for it. the change after margaret thatcher. he not margaret thatcher. so he was not margaret thatcher. so the potent of this argument is known to everyone at westminster. they know that this is what matters. so it's not a matter of saying, oh, let's, let's we drop that. it's a bit a bit of opposition. no, they ain't great. got controversy. ain't great. we got controversy. we've got cut through. we've got all we from this campaign all we want from this campaign as too not many of the as long as too not many of the leading figures on the conservative side are associated with this. and the timing is three— with this. and the timing is ttntet ta— with this. and the timing is linked to the— with this. and the timing is linked to the may- and the timing is linked to the may elections or next— linked to the may elections or next-generat— linked to the may elections or next general election. next year's general election. wett. — next year's general election. wett-thtna- next year's general election. well,-thing doesn't well, the whole thing doesn't matter. mean, as long as you matter. i mean, as long as you keep going and keep attacking rishi would completely rishi sunak would be completely impartial advice to labour. so this is dirty tricks or these questionable adverts is one area, but what's dominating westminster really is scotland. at the moment. it is, yes. and of the scottish story is

of course the scottish story is absolutely . and absolutely fascinating. and another which you've another thing which you've already is this already mentioned is this question should be question of should there be a pact between the conservatives and labour. now, here the situation is quite different. that's the front page of the suntaw— that's the front page of the sunday telegraph. that's the sunday— sunday telegraph. that's the sunday telegraph. that's the sunday telegraph. but the important point to realise is this, if there was this, is that if there was a pact between the tories and labour to get rid of the snp, right, much weakened by right, snp much weakened by recent events , yes. but the key recent events, yes. but the key point to bear in mind is that if that was to happen, who would benefit more? the conservatives or labour? no labour would benefit more. that's why the conservative high command in london is saying don't talk about this . that's right. don't about this. that's right. don't go on about it. we'll be asking hawatas— go on about it. we'll be asking hawgtas tear— go on about it. we'll be asking douglas four es— go on about it. we'll be asking douglas four fs on— grit c we'll be asking douglas four fs on that in a few ntnwtes— douglas four fs on that in a few ntnwtes the.— douglas four fs on that in a few minutes time. but— douglas four fs on that in a few minutes time. but of course, there-s— minutes time. but of course, there-s a— minutes time. but of course, there-s a big— minutes time. but of course, there's a big story in the mail on suntaw— there's a big story in the mail on sunday with— there's a big story in the mail on sunday with with the unusual shant— on sunday with with the unusual staht at— on sunday with with the unusual staht at a— on sunday with with the unusual sight of a motorhome. now, why is sight of a motorhome. now, why ts—thts— sight of a motorhome. now, why ts—thts sht- sight of a motorhome. now, why is_this snp storyi is that linked to this snp story involving— is that linked to this snp storyi tnwatwna—ts involving peter murrell? this is atrenentaws— involving peter murrell? this is a tremendous scoop by the mail on suntaw— a tremendous scoop by the mail on suntaw ._ a tremendous scoop by the mail on sunday, i have— a tremendous scoop by the mail on sunday, i have to say. i thre— on sunday, i have to say. i mean, this is— on sunday, i have to say. i mean, this is to— on sunday, i have to say. i mean, this is to get-

mean, this is to get a photograph of £110,000 worth of motorhome being the police removing it from outside on a low loader of the this of nicola sturgeon's husband's mother. right. so it's the in—law nicola sturgeon mother in law lives at this property. she's 92. and obviously what they're connecting it with is the whole fraud inquiry. and it does give an amazing twist because the neighbours are saying that this motorhome was there for two years unused, but at that amount of money, £110,000 for an unused motorhome and the other rather sort of wonderful sort of side to this, a wonderful if you're a journalist like me and you like the twists and turns of the story, but motorhomes apparently are very unpopular in scotland because because the people in the motorhomes don't pay for the hotels. they put they take out, they reckon more from the economy than put back in. so motorhomes are not a good look.

and they block the roads and thew-we— and they block the roads and they've narrow— and they block the roads and they've narrow roads. you're stash— they've narrow roads. you're stuck behind _ they've narrow roads. you're stuck behind them. exactly i guess— stuck behind them. exactly i guess ._ stuck behind them. exactly i guess i wonder— stuck behind them. exactly i guess i wonder if motorhome ntaht— guess i wonder if motorhome ntaht heearne— guess i wonder if motorhome might become this symbol this might become this symbol of this stew— might become this symbol of this stew-seettant — might become this symbol of this story-scotland . _ might become this symbol of this story scotland . whim c story in scotland. well, it is that— story in scotland. well, it is that picture which is, you know, you just see it, see it. we can put that picture up again. excuse you. it is an extraordinary shot and it's very difficult to deny, as usual . we difficult to deny, as usual. we can't say, oh, it's a fake picture. it couldn't be that motorhome. oh no, no, no, no. this be the motorhome. i this must be the motorhome. i wonder if motty might become like wonder if motty might become tttelwas— wonder if motty might become likelwas symbol— wonder if motty might become like was symbol of this story like it was symbol of this story in like it was symbol of this story tn seettant. — like it was symbol of this story in scotland. well,— like it was symbol of this story in scotland. well, i- like it was symbol of this story in scotland. whim like it was symbol of this story in scotland. well, i just think once you get into, you know, the motorhome wrap , but to have it motorhome wrap, but to have it as to have people against motorhomes in scotland was the twist in the story, which i just couldn't believe that couldn't i couldn't believe that i goodin couldn't i couldn't believe that i good in the comment i was so good in the comment pagesis i was so good in the comment pages is a very moving piece by dominic headlined my dominic lawson is headlined my father would would father would have would would tell objective. i'll tell me to be objective. i'll try. of course his f i'll try. of course his father was meet— try. of course his father was nigel lawson,— try. of course his father was nigel lawson, knew try. of course his father was- nigel lawson,-knew who nigel lawson, who you knew who thet— nigel lawson, who you knew who treat-ween— nigel lawson, who you knew who thee-ween .— nigel lawson, who you knew who died-week . what— nigel lawson, who you knew who died week . what you you've died this week. what you you've the— died this week. what you you've the these. — died this week. what you you've seen the piece. it's— died this week. what you you've seen the piece. it's a moving these.— seen the piece. it's a moving these-wear- seen the piece. it's a moving piece. your memory of piece. what's your memory of nigel— piece. what's your memory of nigel lawson? _ piece. what's your memory of nigel lawson? c trig piece. what's your memory of nigel lawson? g nigel lawson? it's a very moving piece because the closeness

between, you know , the son and between, you know, the son and the father is just tremendous. i mean , he used to read all his mean, he used to read all his columns . us mean, he used to read all his columns. us nigel mean, he used to read all his columns . us nigel lawson used to columns. us nigel lawson used to eat his columns. he was incredibly clever, man. he made mistakes . incredibly clever, man. he made mistakes. but incredibly clever, man. he made mistakes . but in incredibly clever, man. he made mistakes. but in sort of general , sort of where does he stand in the conservative history? it's amazing . amazingly high. him and amazing. amazingly high. him and geoffrey howe really running the engine room of thatcherism. dominic lawson says that he stutt— dominic lawson says that he sewtt he— dominic lawson says that he could be breathtakingly blunt attent— could be breathtakingly blunt about columns.— could be breathtakingly blunt about columns. hero did you ever the— about columns. hero did you ever that htn — about columns. hero did you ever that htn being— about columns. hero did you ever find him being blunt about your renerttna— find him being blunt about your renerttna-were- find him being blunt about your reporting were working reporting when you were working for reporting when you were working tar—we.— reporting when you were working tar—we. when- reporting when you were working tar—ws. when .- reporting when you were working for—no, when i had. for the bbc? no, when i had lunch him when he was lunch with him when he was chancellor and he was extremely polite not helpful in polite and not very helpful in terms giving me comments terms of giving me comments about was going on. but about what was going on. but there a moment when said, there was a moment when i said, now you know, now at some point, you know, career is end and, you know, how would you if you were resigning , would it be over an issue or why might you resign? i was hoping that he would add to this. and he said, no, i'm not going to comment on that. and i said, but would it be fair to say that you'd like to resign on

your terms? and of course , in your terms? and of course, in fact, resign over an fact, he did resign over an issue over 1989. wasn't it? yeah. and but i found him particularly on this occasion, extremely sort of polite and careful. but the story about him, which i can't i just it's always stuck in my mind, is margaret thatcher telling him to get his hair cut and you just think, isn't that sort of it? it's good and bad. it's good . it's good and bad. it's good. it's good and bad. it's good. it's both of them together for being, you know, half affectionate, half critical. just everything. do you think the raw— just everything. do you think the ten natty— just everything. do you think the tory party has— q do you think the tory party has learned the tenet— the tory party has learned the correct lesson— the tory party has learned the correct lesson from lawson? i the— correct lesson from lawson? i the partw— correct lesson from lawson? i mean, the party often thinks the tent— mean, the party often thinks the rtaht tees— mean, the party often thinks the right does talk— mean, the party often thinks the right does talk about the huge cut right does talk about the huge eat tn— right does talk about the huge eat tn the— right does talk about the huge cut in the high— right does talk about the huge cut in the high rate and the top rate— cut in the high rate and the top rate at— cut in the high rate and the top rate at tax— cut in the high rate and the top rate at tax tn— cut in the high rate and the top rate of tax in 1988— cut in the high rate and the top rate of tax in 1988 from 60% to ho.— rate of tax in 1988 from 60% to no. ant— rate of tax in 1988 from 60% to no. ant these— rate of tax in 1988 from 60% to 40. and these scenes, of course, he hat— 40. and these scenes, of course, he hat nrenaret— 40. and these scenes, of course, he had prepared the ground for that,— he had prepared the ground for that-he,— he had prepared the ground for that-he, tw— he had prepared the ground for that, he, by controlling that, hadn't he, by controlling tnttattan— that, hadn't he, by controlling tnttattan tn— that, hadn't he, by controlling inflation in the— that, hadn't he, by controlling inflation in the first part of the— inflation in the first part of the decade— inflation in the first part of the decade, that maybe forgotten? _ the decade, that maybe. forgotten? -mean, the decade, that maybe- forgotten? -mean, i think forgotten? yeah. i mean, i think two come this. two points come out of this. first all, thatcher, first of all, margaret thatcher, people imagine was sort of tempestuous and thinking of things actually things that she was actually very lawson and after

very careful. lawson and after all, his great budget is after the election of 87. so you think, oh, why not do it before and catch the votes by saying, i'm the cutter? so they're i'm the tax cutter? so they're very careful. but the key lesson, of course, the conservative government should realise got to be realise is you've got to be about something and lawson provided so many reasons for being about and this is his pictures behind the desk of jeremy hunt in in number 11 guangxi. as of this morning, he wrote— guangxi. as of this morning, he wrote a— guangxi. as of this morning, he wrote a superh— guangxi. as of this morning, he wrote a superb book— cila�*rgx as of this morning, he wrote a superb book about being in wrote a superb book about being tn the— wrote a superb book about being tn the treasury— wrote a superb book about being in the treasury view from number n. — in the treasury view from number n. he— in the treasury view from number n. he wa— in the treasury view from number n he highly— in the treasury view from number 11. t; " r: f 11. he was highly intellectual, brilliantly clever guy, and very much prepared to talk to people and explain things as he did to me at that lunch. i wasn't i wasn't a brilliant tutor pupil. but anyway, he was trying to teach me things. now, turning to the sunny— teach me things. now, turning to the sunday mirror— teach me things. now, turning to the sunday mirror front- f 93 now, turning to the sunday mirror front page, ant— the sunday mirror front page, ant thts— the sunday mirror front page, ant thts an— the sunday mirror front page, and this an interview here with sherw— and this an interview here with shewt craw— and this an interview here with sheryl crow about— and this an interview here with sheryl crow about corbell, who is sheryl crow about corbell, who ts—tt— sheryl crow about corbell, who ts—tt onwa- sheryl crow about corbell, who is_of olivia, who. sheryl crow about corbell, who. is_of olivia, who was is the mother of olivia, who was so sattw— is the mother of olivia, who was so sattw shat.— is the mother of olivia, who was so sadly shot. now— is the mother of olivia, who was so sadly shot. now she this tnterwew— so sadly shot. now she this tnterwew ts— so sadly shot. now she this interview is fascinating, but tt-s— interview is fascinating, but tt-s atten— interview is fascinating, but it's often happens a it's often what happens in a tratetw— it's often what happens in a tratetw-thts — it's often what happens in a tragedy this. the family tragedy like this. the family testrne— tragedy like this. the family become campaigners for some form of become campaigners for some form tt-tn— become campaigners for some form tt-tn the— become campaigners for some form tt-tn the taw— become campaigners for some form of-in the law and- become campaigners for some form of in the law and she's of change in the law and she's satttnt— of change in the law and she's

satttnt here,— of change in the law and she's calling here, isn't— of change in the law and she's calling here, isn't she, for a taw— calling here, isn't she, for a law-offenders- calling here, isn't she, for a law-offenders to l calling here, isn't she, for a- law-offenders to attend law to force offenders to attend a sentenstnte— law to force offenders to attend a sentencing? because, of the— a sentencing? because, of course, the killer , thomas course, the killer, thomas sashnan— course, the killer, thomas cashman,-do- course, the killer, thomas cashman, do that when course, the killer, thomas- cashman,-do that when he cashman, didn't do that when he as-wt— cashman, didn't do that when he as-wt ht— cashman, didn't do that when he as-ht tt ts— cashman, didn't do that when he was- no, it is it's- cashman, didn't do that when he was-no, it is it's a- was jailed. no, it is it's a tert— was jailed. no, it is it's a very obviously- was jailed. no, it is it's a very obviously ,- was jailed. no, it is it's a very obviously , it's all your very obviously, it's all your stnnathtes— very obviously, it's all your sympathies are— very obviously, it's all your sympathies are immediately with her. — sympathies are immediately with her. st— sympathies are immediately with her. st ht— sympathies are immediately with her. so it doesn't— sympathies are immediately with her. so it doesn't want- sympathies are immediately with her. c 3" c sympathies are immediately with her. c “ c her. so it doesn't want to sort of say, well, you know, i'm going to talk about this as if it's some politician making these remarks. this is someone who has lived through hell, is living through how was at the court. he, of course, was in court. he, of course, was in court for the whole of his trial . cashman was so the family are there. they see him. they see all this innocence until proved proven guilty. and of course, they know then at the end that there's no question of him not being, you know, being totally guilty. and to then find he doesn't come into the dock at the sort of denouement of a whole trial must have been incredibly irritating. you're saying right you've got to saying right now you've got to answer . you saying right now you've got to answer. you listen the judge. answer. you listen to the judge. this it . the answer. you listen to the judge. this it. the problem is, if this is it. the problem is, if you're then talking about as a serious proposal , you're then talking about as a serious proposal, as a proper not not a proper not an

understandable proposal, but as an actual act that you'd have to put through parliament, i see enormous difficulties . are you enormous difficulties. are you going to force the person into the dock? are you going to give them sentence? this guy them extra sentence? as this guy was given a minimum sentence of 42 well what are you 42 years? well what are you going to do? it will double your sentence if you don't go into the dock. i mean, they can't do that. so it's very difficult. and then if he's dragged into the dock , they've got to be the dock, they've got to be careful because it would then give the impression, you know, mistreating the criminal. you've got all sorts of problems about who's then going to decide whether or not if he ducks down below the dock, that's a contempt of court or not. and before you know where you are, instead of being the denouement of the trial, it could be just the beginning of another set of extremely unpleasant legal proceedings because the guy hasn't . so the complexity and hasn't. so the complexity and this is why the television trial is where they show you the judge speaking. you can see the advantages of that . they don't

advantages of that. they don't go to the criminal because they might start making funny noises or waving or doing all sorts of stupid things. so so. and heanng stupid things. so so. and hearing their voice,- hearing their voice, too. that-s— hearing their voice, too. that ht.— hearing their voice, too. that's it. so— hearing their voice, too. that's it. so you- hearing their voice, too. that's it. so you want to see the judge, which i think has been very interesting. i didn't think it was going to be that good. but what's interesting is how the judges so far we've seen are toffs. they don't say, are not toffs. they don't say, oh, are not toffs. they don't say, oh , are not toffs. they don't say, oh, , i'm going to go down oh, hello, i'm going to go down for yards. they don't say for 42 yards. they don't say that. fact, they're very that. in fact, they're very straightforward people. and i think that's impressive . john. think that's impressive. john. sergeant, thanks for- john. sergeant, thanks for joining us thts—the- sergeant, thanks for joining us thts—the hatersi sergeant, thanks for joining us. this—the papers. do this week to view the papers. do tast— this week to view the papers. do come back again.— this week to view the papers. do come back again. great to have you— come back again. great to have ttt tn— come back again. great to have ttt thank— come back again. great to have you on. thank you.— come back again. great to have you on. thank you. thank you. htw— you on. thank you. thank you. htw-ttt— you on. thank you. thank you. now-gotlspecial- you on. thank you. thank you. now got special edition now we've got a special edition of now we've got a special edition tt the— now we've got a special edition tt the hetnte-s— now we've got a special edition of the people's panel coming up tttat—stnse- of the people's panel coming upj today—since the today to mark 25 years since the sttntnt— today to mark 25 years since the sttntntlthe— today to mark 25 years since the signing-the good— today to mark 25 years since the signing the good friday signing of the good friday agreement.— signing of the good friday agreement. beattie is signing of the good friday- agreement.-beattie is in agreement. dougie beattie is in tents.— agreement. dougie beattie is in belfast—what. belfast. dougie, tell us what tttte— belfast. dougie, tell us what ttt-te-stntnt- belfast. dougie, tell us what you've coming 1015 belfast. dougie, tell us what. you've -coming -1015. you've got coming up at 1015. wett— you've got coming up at 1015. well, welcome— you've got coming up at 1015. well, welcome to _ you've got coming up at 1015. well, welcome to belfast- you've got coming up at 1015. well, welcome to belfast with me. i have writer , journalist me. i have writer, journalist and broadcaster and musician mike gaston and one of my first bosses in the media. we have tiernan mckenna. she's a double medal winner with women's football and was right at the

forefront of that and a mother. and we have david gibson, a offshore engineer, part time farmer and father. and we'll be talking to them just where northern ireland is 25 years after the good friday agreement -- i now, i now, it's been a busy week in scottish - now, it's been a busy week in scottish politics. _ scottish politics. nicola sttrtetn-s— scottish politics. nicola sturgeon's-,. scottish politics. nicola. sturgeon's-, peter sturgeon's husband, peter htrrett— sturgeon's husband, peter murrell, the— sturgeon's husband, peter murrell, the chief executive of the shh— murrell, the chief executive of the shh was— murrell, the chief executive of the snp, was arrested on wetnestat— the snp, was arrested on wednesday in— the snp, was arrested on wednesday in connection with an tntestttatttn— wednesday in connection with an investigation into— wednesday in connection with an investigation into the party's ttnanses— investigation into the party's ttnanses he— investigation into the party's finances. he was— investigation into the party's finances. he was then released wtthttt— finances. he was then released without charge,— finances. he was then released without charge, pending further investigations.— without charge, pending further investigations. so what's next investigations. so what's next tn ssttttsh— investigations. so what's next in scottish politics? discuss thts— in scottish politics? discuss thts ant— in scottish politics? discuss this and more.— in scottish politics? discuss this and more. is douglas ross, the heater— this and more. is douglas ross, the heater tt— this and more. is douglas ross, the leader of the— this and more. is douglas ross, the leader of the scottish the rates— the leader of the scottish the tories douglas.— the leader of the scottish the tories douglas. morning show. sttt— tories douglas. morning show. sttt ntrntnt— tories douglas. morning show. good morning, chris. how are you 7 good morning, chris. how are you e on— good morning, chris. how are you t on, tttt— good morning, chris. how are you son tttt, tttt— good morning, chris. how are you ? oh, good, good, thank you. httttas— ? oh, good, good, thank you. douglas thanks— ? oh, good, good, thank you. douglas thanks for joining us on the stntat— douglas thanks for joining us on the sunday morning. now, before we tet— the sunday morning. now, before we get tntt— the sunday morning. now, before

we get tntt the— the sunday morning. now, before we get into the snp and what's hannentnt— we get into the snp and what's hannentnt there,— we get into the snp and what's happening there, you're interviewed— happening there, you're interviewed in today's sunday tetetranh— interviewed in today's sunday telegraph talking about, well, tet-s— telegraph talking about, well, has ast— telegraph talking about, well, tet-s ast ttt— telegraph talking about, well, let's ask you the— telegraph talking about, well, let's ask you the question, why are let's ask you the question, why ttt— let's ask you the question, why ttt ashnt— let's ask you the question, why are you asking scots to vote tatttr— are you asking scots to vote tatttr 7— are you asking scots to vote labour ? well,— are you asking scots to vote labour ? well, i'm not, chris, labour? well, i'm not, chris, ant— labour? well, i'm not, chris, ant tt-s— labour? well, i'm not, chris, ant tt-s tert— labour? well, i'm not, chris, and it's very clear. i think you will see the quote from me in that article that says i will always encourage scottish conservatives to vote scottish conservative. and what i'm trying to say is that there are many seats across scotland where it is our party, the scottish conservatives, that are the main challengers so challengers to the snp. so people want move on from the people want to move on from the decade of division that we had under sturgeon under nicola sturgeon and is being continued humza being continued under humza yousaf then voting scottish conservative. and that means in some liberal democrat and some places liberal democrat and labour voters backing the scottish conservative candidate. then we see snp lose then we can see the snp lose their power here in their grip on power here in scotland. and i think for many people that's an option they are looking at because as come the next holyrood election, the snp will in charge for will have been in charge for almost no one almost two decades and no one can say scotland is in a better place as a result of that . place as a result of that. that's not really what the party

in that's not really what the party tn ttnttn— that's not really what the party in london wants— that's not really what the party in london wants to say though, is in london wants to say though, ts tte— in london wants to say though, is it? because— in london wants to say though, is it? because the— in london wants to say though, is it? because the party london is it? because the party london ts sattnt— is it? because the party london ts sattnt thts— is it? because the party london is saying this, quote, this is ennhattsaht— is saying this, quote, this is emphatically not the view of the ttn— emphatically not the view of the ttrt-we— emphatically not the view of the ttrt-we-tetnte- emphatically not the view of the ttrt-we-nettte ttl tory party. we want people to ttte— tory party. we want people to vote .conservative - tory party. we want people to vote conservative candidates vote for conservative candidates wherever standing, wherever they are standing, tesase— wherever they are standing, because - best - wherever they are standing, because - best to because that's the best way to teen — because that's the best way to keep-ant— because that's the best way to keep-ant-shh- because that's the best way to keep and snp out. keep labour and the snp out. tttht. — keep labour and the snp out. tttht. wett— keep labour and the snp out. right. well the— keep labour and the snp out. right. well the uk and the ssttttsh— right. well the uk and the scottish party— right. well the uk and the scottish party are absolutely atreet— scottish party are absolutely atreet that— scottish party are absolutely agreed that we— scottish party are absolutely agreed that we want to maximise the ntrnert— agreed that we want to maximise the ntrnetr tt— agreed that we want to maximise the number of scottish conservative - the number of scottish conservative and conservative hrs— conservative and conservative hhs hshs— conservative and conservative mps, msps elected and in many parts— mps, msps elected and in many parts tt— mps, msps elected and in many parts of scotland. _ mps, msps elected and in many parts of scotland. t:t:::t parts of scotland. the way to do thatis parts of scotland. the way to do that is by voting scottish conservatives because by voting for the other parties it only helps snp. so take my seat here in moray for example. chris, we last won this seat before i was elected in 2017, the year i was born in 1983. but we won it in 2017 and we retained the seat in 2019 because some labour and liberal democrat voters supported me, supported the scottish conservatives as the best vehicle to remove the snp from power . best vehicle to remove the snp from power. here do you worry atttt— from power. here do you worry atttt htw— from power. here do you worry about how the— from power. here do you worry about how the tories- right; do you worry about how the tories are doing in about how the tories are doing tn sstttante— about how the tories are doing in scotland? because there's teen— in scotland? because there's teen weeks— in scotland? because there's been weeks and— in scotland? because there's been weeks and weeks of concern

atttt— been weeks and weeks of concern atttt the — been weeks and weeks of concern atttt the sht— been weeks and weeks of concern about the snp leadership as they tetate— about the snp leadership as they tetate wht— about the snp leadership as they debate who should— about the snp leadership as they debate who should be the leader and debate who should be the leader ant tths— debate who should be the leader ant nths shtw— debate who should be the leader and polls show us— debate who should be the leader and polls show us here that the sht— and polls show us here that the she ts— and polls show us here that the she ts tn— and polls show us here that the she ts tn th— and polls show us here that the snp is on 42. the— and polls show us here that the snp is on 42. the tories far tehtnt— snp is on 42. the tories far tehtnt tn— snp is on 42. the tories far behind on 18,— snp is on 42. the tories far behind on 18, labour on 30. we haven-t— behind on18, labour on 30. we haten-t seen— behind on 18, labour on 30. we haven't seen any— behind on 18, labour on 30. we haven't seen any polling yet snse— haven't seen any polling yet the— haven't seen any polling yet since the police— haven't seen any polling yet since the police issue happened nttweeh— since the police issue happened nttweet. wht— since the police issue happened midweek. why aren't the tories sttttnt— midweek. why aren't the tories cutting through?— midweek. why aren't the tories cutting through? in fact, it ttes— cutting through? in fact, it ttes appear— cutting through? in fact, it does appear that labour's tenettttnt— does appear that labour's benefiting more than the tories trtn— benefiting more than the tories trtn the— benefiting more than the tories trtn the sht— benefiting more than the tories from the snp chaos. benefiting more than the tories from the snp chaos . ash; from the snp chaos. we saw paul a starte— from the snp chaos. we saw paul a couple of weeks ago that i think had labour in scotland down for the snp down to and the scottish conservatives up six. so there's been a range of polls recently, but the fact is at the moment the scottish conservatives have msps conservatives have more msps and scottish mps than labour and the liberal democrat combined. so people know that we are the biggest challengers to the snp in many parts of scotland and that's why more and more people are looking to the scottish conservatives as as the party that remove the snp from that can remove the snp from their area, be that in the north, north—east, the south their area, be that in the no parts north—east, the south their area, be that in the no parts of north—east, the south their area, be that in the no parts of theh—east, the south their area, be that in the no parts of the central the south their area, be that in the no parts of the central belt south in parts of the central belt such as east renfrewshire, there are for

are real opportunities for people to remove the snp from power in these areas if they get behind the scottish conservatives. there have been rumours of course reported rumours of course reported rumours that police scotland are delayed. the rumours that police scotland are delayed . the arrest of peter delayed. the arrest of peter htrreh— delayed. the arrest of peter murrell and _ delayed. the arrest of peter murrell and until— 3: the arrest of peter murrell and until after the etestttn— murrell and until after the election of— murrell and until after the election of the— murrell and until after the election of the new scottish ttrst— election of the new scottish first minister— election of the new scottish first minister humza yousaf are you first minister humza yousaf are ttt stnsernet— first minister humza yousaf are you concerned about that ? �*fthzgl you concerned about that? well, i you concerned about that? well, tthtnt— you concerned about that? well, tthtnt what— you concerned about that? well, i think what i'm— you concerned about that? well, i think what i'm more interested in timing was nicola sturgeon's decision to stand down for her to somehow suggest and continue to somehow suggest and continue to suggest that it had nothing to suggest that it had nothing to do with this ongoing inquiry i think is frankly absurd . and i think is frankly absurd. and we had an incredible team this week, chris, where someone who had been first ministerjust eight days earlier and it was in a house when the police came to arrest their husband . now, arrest their husband. now, obviously, that's an ongoing live police inquiry and i can't go much further into it, but we have seen those scenes of the house being taped off a police tent outside. and as you mentioned with john sergeant there, an incredible story by

georgina edkins in the sunday mail today of a campervan being removed from nicola sturgeon's mother in law's house. so it continues to be an incredible story and one that deeply damaging, not for just the snp, but for scotland to see this played out in this way. but for scotland to see this played out in this way . yeah played out in this way. yeah i mean nicola sturgeon has denied of course, any prior knowledge of course, any prior knowledge of the rest of her husband, but should there be some form of investigate by somebody to work out whether happened and out whether this happened and whether there was some some form of moving around the political timetable to suit what happened last the last week? well, i think the ntst— last week? well, i think the most important— , well, i think the most important thing is we get to most important thing is we get tt the— most important thing is we get to the bottom _ most important thing is we get to the bottom of— most important thing is we get to the bottom of this inquiry. it to the bottom of this inquiry. tt has— to the bottom of this inquiry. tt has hw— to the bottom of this inquiry. it has now been— to the bottom of this inquiry. it has now been going- to the bottom of this inquiry. it has now been going on- to the bottom of this inquiry. it has now been going on for 18 months, almost two years. it's been an extensive inquiry. and we saw that peter murrell was interviewed for almost a maximum 12 hours, released without charge, but pending further investigation and a significant amount of evidence taken away from both their home and snp headquarters. so i think people want answers and those answers

have to come from nicola sturgeon from humza yousaf and those at the top of the snp because there are further reports over the weekend and indeed today that nicola sturgeon angrily shut down any discussion about the funds being missing at an meeting of the snp. so this has been going on for some time and i'm sure there are more witnesses that will be spoken to about it . there are spoken to about it. there are calls this morning angus mcneil being one for the snp leadership election to be rerun. we think we've election to be rerun. we think heart— election to be rerun. we think we've heard rumours- f" ”c2" we think we've heard rumours that sports of we've heard rumours that sports tt hate— we've heard rumours that sports of kate forbes— we've heard rumours that sports of kate forbes are— we've heard rumours that sports of kate forbes are similar in that— of kate forbes are similar in that tn— of kate forbes are similar in that tn that— of kate forbes are similar in that in that camp. do you agree 7 that in that camp. do you agree theh— that in that camp. do you agree eweh, t— that in that camp. do you agree .7 well, i think— that in that camp. do you agree .7 well, i think the— that in that camp. do you agree ? well, i think the snp always want— ? well, i think the snp always want tt— ? well, i think the snp always want to rerun— ? well, i think the snp always want to rerun any— ? well, i think the snp always want to rerun any election that comes out with— want to rerun any election that comes out with a— want to rerun any election that comes out with a 5248 result that— comes out with a 5248 result that seems— comes out with a 5248 result that seems to— comes out with a 5248 result that seems to be— comes out with a 5248 result that seems to be their regular strnent— that seems to be their regular comment on results such as that . t— comment on results such as that . t thtnt— comment on results such as that . t thtnt the— comment on results such as that . i think the fact— comment on results such as that . i think the fact is— comment on results such as that . i think the fact is it- comment on results such as that . i think the fact is it not- . i think the fact is it not just supporters of kate forbes, but we had and again, there are so many new stories here in scotland at the moment because the current interim chief executive officer of the snp and

the party president, mike russell , the party president, mike russell, making some quotes in the herald yesterday that sounded like he was not particularly happy with humza yousaf himars the new snp leader and minister. but that is yousaf himars the new snp leader and the minister. but that is yousaf himars the new snp leader and the snp ster. but that is yousaf himars the new snp leader and the snp voted’tut that is yousaf himars the new snp leader and the snp voted for. hat is yousaf himars the new snp leader and the snp voted for. and s yousaf himars the new snp leader and the snp voted for. and what who the snp voted for. and what i want to see now is the scottish government focussed on delivering for the people of scotland and prioritising the priorities of people of scotland, is not another scotland, which is not another independence referendum . independence referendum. there's not an election scotland for there's not an election scotland ttr ste— there's not an election scotland ttr tears— there's not an election scotland for some years yet. _ there's not an election scotland for some years yet. douglas ross but for some years yet. douglas ross htt where— for some years yet. douglas ross htt where tt— for some years yet. douglas ross but where do you— for some years yet. douglas ross but where do you stand on tax? the— but where do you stand on tax? the tnsttttte— but where do you stand on tax? the institute for— but where do you stand on tax? the institute for fiscal studies sats— the institute for fiscal studies says that— the institute for fiscal studies says that someone on £50,000 a tear— says that someone on £50,000 a tear tats— says that someone on £50,000 a tear tats tatto— says that someone on £50,000 a year pays £1,500 more in tax and theate— year pays £1,500 more in tax and tttetoo a— year pays £1,500 more in tax and tttetoo a tear— year pays £1,500 more in tax and £150,000 a year pays nearly 4000 tn tax— £150,000 a year pays nearly 4000 more in tax because— £150,000 a year pays nearly 4000 more in tax because of the way that— more in tax because of the way that the— more in tax because of the way that the scottish _ more in tax because of the way that the scottish government can shante— that the scottish government can shante the— that the scottish government can shante the tne— that the scottish government can change the one extra tax on on the— change the one extra tax on on the htther— change the one extra tax on on the higher rates— change the one extra tax on on the higher rates of— change the one extra tax on on the higher rates of income tax . the higher rates of income tax. why— the higher rates of income tax. wht wtttt— the higher rates of income tax. wht wtttt ttt— the higher rates of income tax. why would you cut tax if you tesae— why would you cut tax if you became first _ why would you cut tax if you became first minister? well, i sat— became first minister? well, i sat that— became first minister? well, i sat that tn— became first minister? well, i said that in 2021— became first minister? well, i said that in 2021 and the etestttn— said that in 2021 and the election to— said that in 2021 and the election to the- said that in 2021 and the election to the current scottish harhanent— election to the current scottish parliament that— election to the current scottish parliament that the scottish conservatives _ parliament that the scottish conservatives over the course of thts— conservatives over the course of this parliament— conservatives over the course of this parliament would seek to

get ttr— this parliament would seek to get tat— this parliament would seek to get our tax take— this parliament would seek to get our tax take in terms of sstttant— get our tax take in terms of scotland similar— get our tax take in terms of scotland similar and the same as the rest— scotland similar and the same as the rest tt— scotland similar and the same as the rest tt the— scotland similar and the same as the rest of the united kingdom, tesase— the rest of the united kingdom, tease t— the rest of the united kingdom, because i think— the rest of the united kingdom, because i think it— the rest of the united kingdom, because i think it is wrong that nethe— because i think it is wrong that netnte are— because i think it is wrong that netnte pathe— because i think it is wrong that people are paying more in taxatttn— people are paying more in taxation here— people are paying more in taxation here in scotland to do the east— taxation here in scotland to do the exact same— taxation here in scotland to do the exact same job than elsewhere _ the exact same job than elsewhere in— the exact same job than elsewhere in the united kingdom. that—ts— elsewhere in the united kingdom. that—us problems- elsewhere in the united kingdom. that—us problems in. that does cause us problems in terms recruiting skilled terms of recruiting skilled people their jobs north of people to do their jobs north of the border . the next year is the the border. the next year is the 25th— the border. the next year is the 25th anniversary— the border. the next year is the 25th anniversary of— : the next year is the 25th anniversary of the holyrood harhanent. — 25th anniversary of the holyrood parliament. how— 25th anniversary of the holyrood parliament. how many marks out of parliament. how many marks out tt ten— parliament. how many marks out tt ten wtttt— parliament. how many marks out of ten would you— parliament. how many marks out of ten would you give devolution ? of ten would you give devolution e wett— of ten would you give devolution e weh, t— of ten would you give devolution .7 well, i think— of ten would you give devolution ? well, i think devolution has teen— ? well, i think devolution has teen a— ? well, i think devolution has teen a tttt— ? well, i think devolution has been a good thing in terms of whether— been a good thing in terms of tnnttnt ntwers— been a good thing in terms of bringing powers closer to the tetate— bringing powers closer to the netnte tt— bringing powers closer to the people of scotland . f people of scotland. but actually the drive for devolution because london seems too remote from many communities in scotland, can now be put on the holyrood parliament and particularly the snp scottish government because as i was up in shetland this week, it's part of the region i represent in the scottish parliament and for many remote and rural areas , holyrood now and rural areas, holyrood now seems as distant as westminster ever so i want to see ever was. so i want to see a scottish parliament actually

delivers for people and represents the whole of scotland. and at the moment that's not happening with the centralising snp government. it didn't under nicola didn't happen under nicola sturgeon because we've got sturgeon and because we've got the continuity candidate and humza not happening humza yousaf, it's not happening under . and how many under him either. and how many narts— under him either. and how many narts wtttt— under him either. and how many marks would he— under him either. and how many marks would he give— e. t:ti” " ti and how many marks would he give rishi i t:ti” i ti and how many marks would he give rishi sunak at the— marks would he give rishi sunak at the rntrnent— marks would he give rishi sunak at the moment i— marks would he give rishi sunak at the moment i think he's doing a treat— at the moment i think he's doing a treat ttt— at the moment i think he's doing a treat ttt ant— at the moment i think he's doing atreat ttt ant t— at the moment i think he's doing a great job and i think we've seen progressive— a great job and i think we've seen progressive the conservatives building more and stnntrt— conservatives building more and more support because they , the more support because they, the truths— more support because they, the ntths san— more support because they, the truths see— more support because they, the public can see a— more support because they, the public can see a prime minister wht— public can see a prime minister wht ts— public can see a prime minister wht ts tttettt— public can see a prime minister who is quietly getting things ttne. — who is quietly getting things ttne. want— who is quietly getting things done. many things- who is quietly getting things done. gt; done. many things that commentators or other politicians felt would not be achievable have been delivered by the prime minister because he is determined . he works with is determined. he works with people across the political spectrum to get results . and spectrum to get results. and we've seen that in a number of different areas. and i very delighted that the prime minister is doing a great job across the whole of the united kingdom and marks out ten. douglas oh well gosh , i never douglas oh well gosh, i never ttte— douglas oh well gosh, i never ttte that— douglas oh well gosh, i never like that because— douglas oh well gosh, i never like that because people will ttte— like that because people will ttte ne— like that because people will give me marks— like that because people will

give me marks out of ten and that-h— give me marks out of ten and that he— give me marks out of ten and that'll be the— give me marks out of ten and that'll be the next question that— that'll be the next question that t— that'll be the next question that t ttn-t— that'll be the next question that i don't want to hear the answer to. okay.— that i don't want to hear the answer to. okay. and just that— answer to. okay. and just ttnaht .— answer to. okay. and just ttnaht , tt— answer to. okay. and just finally , of course, it's going finally, of course, it's going tt-s— finally, of course, it's going tt-s tttnt— finally, of course, it's going it's going pretty— finally, of course, it's going it's going pretty well for a tttt— it's going pretty well for a tttt quarter.— it's going pretty well for a good quarter. you argue rishi stnat— good quarter. you argue rishi stnat ts— good quarter. you argue rishi sunak is performing well in the nths— sunak is performing well in the tths .— sunak is performing well in the nths . that— sunak is performing well in the polls . that might— sunak is performing well in the polls . that might explain polls. that might explain tatttr-s— polls. that might explain labour's attacks uk wide. now on the twttter— labour's attacks uk wide. now on the twitter about— labour's attacks uk wide. now on the twitter about the tory rstrt— the twitter about the tory record on crime. it may not go so record on crime. it may not go st wett— record on crime. it may not go st weh atter— record on crime. it may not go so well after the— record on crime. it may not go so well after the may local etestttns— so well after the may local elections in— so well after the may local elections in england and that may— elections in england and that may teat— elections in england and that may teat tt— elections in england and that may lead to boris johnson coming hast.— may lead to boris johnson coming hast. what-s— may lead to boris johnson coming back. what's your— may lead to boris johnson coming back. what's your advice to party— back. what's your advice to party rnernerts— back. what's your advice to party members who might be stnsttertnt— party members who might be considering-? - party members who might be considering ? �*ft�*till party members who might be considering ? �*ft�*tiii considering that? well, i know party— considering that? well, i know party members are working flat out across england where there are local council elections. and i want to see good results for the party in those local government elections . and i government elections. and i think you hit the nail on the head when you speak about the change in labour attitudes. i mean, the advert that was put out by labour that has seemingly been endorsed by keir starmer is in poor taste and one that in very poor taste and one that they would be very quick to criticise the conservatives for issuing and i think the silence from some at of

from some people at the top of labouris from some people at the top of labour is very telling on that . labour is very telling on that. well, douglas ross , thank you. well, douglas ross, thank you. ttts— well, douglas ross, thank you. ttts ntre— well, douglas ross, thank you. ttts tt— well, douglas ross, thank you. lots more to come— well, douglas ross, thank you. lots more to come on the show. ttt— lots more to come on the show. ttt san— lots more to come on the show. ttt watsh— lots more to come on the show. you can watch the— lots more to come on the show. you can watch the exclusive tnterttew— you can watch the exclusive interview between arlene foster, the ttrner— interview between arlene foster, the former new— interview between arlene foster, the former new zealand first htntster— the former new zealand first minister and— the former new zealand first minister and the— the former new zealand first minister and the man who signed the sttt— minister and the man who signed the good friday— minister and the man who signed the good friday agreement, ttrner— the good friday agreement, former—ministerl the good friday agreement,- former_minister the former irish prime minister the tattseash— former irish prime minister the taoiseach-ahern- former irish prime minister the taoiseach ahern also taoiseach bertie ahern also sheat— taoiseach bertie ahern also steat tt— taoiseach bertie ahern also speak to bishop— taoiseach bertie ahern also speak to bishop alan smith, the wht— speak to bishop alan smith, the man who convenes— speak to bishop alan smith, the man who convenes the bishops in the-tt— man who convenes the bishops in the-tt ttrts— man who convenes the bishops in the-of lords. so— man who convenes the bishops in the of lords. so don't go the house of lords. so don't go anywhere.— the house of lords. so don't go anywhere. we'll— the house of lords. so don't go anywhere. we'll be— the house of lords. so don't go anywhere. we'll be back very .

soon lots soon - lots more sttn- lots more to sttn— lots more to come sttn— lots more to come in just a rntrnent— lots more to come in just a rntrnent ttt— lots more to come in just a moment, you can- lots more to come in just a moment, you can hear the eststtet— moment, you can hear the exclusive interview between hrtene— exclusive interview between arlene foster,— exclusive interview between arlene foster, the former first htntster— arlene foster, the former first htntster tt— arlene foster, the former first minister of northern ireland, ant— minister of northern ireland, ant the— minister of northern ireland, ant the man— minister of northern ireland, and the man who signed the good trttat— and the man who signed the good friday agreement— and the man who signed the good friday agreement on behalf of the tentths— friday agreement on behalf of the republic of— friday agreement on behalf of the republic of ireland, bertie ahern.— the republic of ireland, bertie ahern. th— the republic of ireland, bertie ahern. i'll be— the republic of ireland, bertie ahern. i'll be back after the wtth— ahern. i'll be back after the news with ray— ahern. i'll be back after the news with ray addison . thanks. news with ray addison. thanks. rotor. heres— news with ray addison. thanks. 10:01. here's the _ news with ray addison. thanks. �*0 0�* here's the latest . a 10:o1. here's the latest. a patents— 10:o1. here's the latest. a patients face— �*0 0�* here's the latest. a patients face unparalleled tetets— patients face unparalleled tetets tt— patients face unparalleled levels of disruption when junior ttsttrs— levels of disruption when junior ttsttrs start— levels of disruption when junior doctors start a— levels of disruption when junior doctors start a four day strike on doctors start a four day strike tn ttestat— doctors start a four day strike tn ttestat tat.— doctors start a four day strike on tuesday day. that's the warntnt— on tuesday day. that's the warning from _ on tuesday day. that's the warning from nhs national hettsat— warning from nhs national medical director professor

stephen— medical director professor stephen powis. he says he's very concerned with— stephen powis. he says he's very concerned with hospitals facing heartw— concerned with hospitals facing neartt too — concerned with hospitals facing nearly 100 hours— concerned with hospitals facing nearly 100 hours without up to hatt— nearly 100 hours without up to hatt tt— nearly 100 hours without up to half of their— nearly 100 hours without up to half of their medical workforce. the— half of their medical workforce. the hns— half of their medical workforce. the nhs confederation says a quarter— the nhs confederation says a quarter tt— the nhs confederation says a quarter tt a— the nhs confederation says a quarter of a million appointments could be postponed and appointments could be postponed ant tthse— appointments could be postponed and police investigating the she-s— and police investigating the snp's finance— and police investigating the snp's finance have reportedly setzet— snp's finance have reportedly setzet a— snp's finance have reportedly seized a luxury— snp's finance have reportedly seized a luxury motorhome. hsstrttnt— seized a luxury motorhome. hsstrttnt tt— seized a luxury motorhome. according to the mail on sunday, the htsnan— according to the mail on sunday, the nisman bischoff motorhome, whtsh— the nisman bischoff motorhome, whtsh san— the nisman bischoff motorhome, which can sell— the nisman bischoff motorhome, which can sell for— the nisman bischoff motorhome, which can sell for around theme,— which can sell for around £110,000, was— which can sell for around £110,000, was removed from a httse— £110,000, was removed from a httse tn— £110,000, was removed from a house in fife.— £110,000, was removed from a house in fife. it— £110,000, was removed from a house in fife. it was taken at the— house in fife. it was taken at the same— house in fife. it was taken at the same time— house in fife. it was taken at the same time that police searshet— the same time that police searched the— the same time that police searched the home of nicola sttrtetn— searched the home of nicola sttrtetn ant— searched the home of nicola sturgeon and her husband , peter sturgeon and her husband, peter htrreh— sturgeon and her husband, peter htrreh. sht— sturgeon and her husband, peter murrell. snp president mike ttsseh— murrell. snp president mike ttsseh has— murrell. snp president mike russell has described the tntttnt— russell has described the ongoing investigation as the party's— ongoing investigation as the party's biggest— ongoing investigation as the party's biggest crisis . in 50 party's biggest crisis. in 50 tears— party's biggest crisis. in 50 years the— party's biggest crisis. in 50 years. the mother of olivia pratt—korbel_ years. the mother of olivia pratt—korbel has told the sunday htrrtr— pratt—korbel has told the sunday htrrtr that— pratt—korbel has told the sunday mirror that the— pratt—korbel has told the sunday mirror that the law— pratt—korbel has told the sunday mirror that the law should be shantet— mirror that the law should be shantet tt— mirror that the law should be changed to force— mirror that the law should be changed to force all criminals to changed to force all criminals tt attent— changed to force all criminals to attend their— changed to force all criminals to attend their sentencing. shertt— to attend their sentencing. cheryl corbell— to attend their sentencing. cheryl corbell has spoken out atter— cheryl corbell has spoken out atter her— cheryl corbell has spoken out after her daughter's killer, thtnas— after her daughter's killer, thomas cashman, refused to appear— thomas cashman, refused to appear tn— thomas cashman, refused to appear tn the— thomas cashman, refused to appear in the dock as he was

tattet— appear in the dock as he was tattet ttr— appear in the dock as he was tattet ttr a— appear in the dock as he was jailed for a minimum of 42 tears— jailed for a minimum of 42 years. justice— jailed for a minimum of 42 years. justice secretary dominic hatt— years. justice secretary dominic ttaat sats— years. justice secretary dominic ttaat sats he— years. justice secretary dominic ttaat sats he ts— years. justice secretary dominic raab says he is planning to shante— raab says he is planning to shante the— raab says he is planning to change the law— raab says he is planning to change the law . a new survey change the law. a new survey suggests— change the law. a new survey suggests that— change the law. a new survey suggests that more than 1 in 10 teashers— suggests that more than 1 in 10 teachers have— suggests that more than 1 in 10 teachers have been physically assatttet— teachers have been physically assatttet tt— teachers have been physically assaulted by a— teachers have been physically assaulted by a pupil in the last tear.— assaulted by a pupil in the last tear. the— assaulted by a pupil in the last year. the teachers— assaulted by a pupil in the last year. the teachers union says thet-te— year. the teachers union says thet-te teen— year. the teachers union says they've been kicked , bitten and they've been kicked, bitten and ntnshet— they've been kicked, bitten and ntnshet tt— they've been kicked, bitten and punched by pupils , whilst more punched by pupils, whilst more than— punched by pupils, whilst more than t— punched by pupils, whilst more than t tn— punched by pupils, whilst more than t tn .— punched by pupils, whilst more than 1 in 4 have— punched by pupils, whilst more than 1 in 4 have faced verbal attse— than 1 in 4 have faced verbal attse trtn — than 1 in 4 have faced verbal abuse from a— than 1 in 4 have faced verbal abuse from a parent or a carer. the— abuse from a parent or a carer. the ttnttnts— abuse from a parent or a carer. the findings have— abuse from a parent or a carer. the findings have been released ttrtnt— the findings have been released ttrtnt the— the findings have been released during the union's— the findings have been released during the union's annual conference in— during the union's annual conference in glasgow today. hetetates— conference in glasgow today. delegates will— conference in glasgow today. delegates will vote on a motion whtsh— delegates will vote on a motion whtsh suggests— delegates will vote on a motion which suggests assaults are seen as a ntrnat tart— which suggests assaults are seen as a normal part of— which suggests assaults are seen as a normal part of teaching in ttt— as a normal part of teaching in ttt mant— as a normal part of teaching in too many schools— as a normal part of teaching in too many schools .— as a normal part of teaching in too many schools . the government too many schools. the government is too many schools. the government ts ettestet— too many schools. the government ts etnestet tt— too many schools. the government is expected to crack— too many schools. the government is expected to crack down on the theta— is expected to crack down on the thetat sate— is expected to crack down on the illegal sale of— is expected to crack down on the illegal sale of e—cigarettes to shhtren— illegal sale of e—cigarettes to children with— illegal sale of e—cigarettes to children with a— illegal sale of e—cigarettes to children with a new illicit tapes— children with a new illicit vapes enforcement squad. the department— vapes enforcement squad. the department tt— vapes enforcement squad. the department of health and social care— department of health and social care sats— department of health and social care says taskforces will carry ttt— care says taskforces will carry ttt test— care says taskforces will carry out test purchasing at shops . it out test purchasing at shops. it wht— out test purchasing at shops. it wttt atst— out test purchasing at shops. it will also share— out test purchasing at shops. it will also share intelligence wtth— will also share intelligence wtth ttsat— will also share intelligence with local authorities. the sttats— with local authorities. the sttats wht— with local authorities. the squads will also have the power to remove illegal—

squads will also have the power to remove illegal products from shtts— to remove illegal products from shtns ant— to remove illegal products from shtns ant at— to remove illegal products from shops and at borders . thousands shops and at borders. thousands of shops and at borders. thousands tt ettestant— shops and at borders. thousands of expectant mothers are set to receive a maternity allowance tttst— receive a maternity allowance tttst tt— receive a maternity allowance tttst tt ton.— receive a maternity allowance boost of 10.1. the— receive a maternity allowance boost of 10.1. the increase will natnents— boost of 10.1. the increase will natnents tt— boost of 10.1. the increase will see payments go up by £15.82 a week.— see payments go up by £15.82 a week. that— see payments go up by £15.82 a week. that equates to around tert— week. that equates to around tett tter— week. that equates to around £617 over the— week. that equates to around £617 over the 39— week. that equates to around £617 over the 39 weeks. it can be £617 over the 39 weeks. it can he statnet. — £617 over the 39 weeks. it can be claimed. the— £617 over the 39 weeks. it can be claimed. the department for wtrt— be claimed. the department for wtrt ant— be claimed. the department for work and pensions says the atttnatts— work and pensions says the automatic increase will benefit arttnt— automatic increase will benefit around 40,000 _ automatic increase will benefit around 40,000 parents this year . chtna— around 40,000 parents this year . china military— around 40,000 parents this year . china military has— around 40,000 parents this year . china military has carried out stnttatet— . china military has carried out simulated precision strikes on tatwan— simulated precision strikes on tatwan tn— simulated precision strikes on taiwan on the— simulated precision strikes on taiwan on the country's state trtatsaster— taiwan on the country's state broadcaster claims cctv says ttrses— broadcaster claims cctv says forces continued _ broadcaster claims cctv says forces continued to encircle the tstant — forces continued to encircle the tstant as— forces continued to encircle the tstant as part— forces continued to encircle the island as part of— forces continued to encircle the island as part of three days of nthtart— island as part of three days of military drills— island as part of three days of military drills focussed on the ttstttet— military drills focussed on the disputed territory . forces have disputed territory. forces have rentrtettt— disputed territory. forces have reportedly been— disputed territory. forces have reportedly been focusing on key targets— reportedly been focusing on key tartets tn— reportedly been focusing on key targets on land— reportedly been focusing on key targets on land and in surrounding- targets on land and in surrounding waters. taiwan's tetense— surrounding waters. taiwan's defence ministry has also rettrtet— defence ministry has also reported multiple air force strttes— reported multiple air force strttes as— reported multiple air force sorties as the _

reported multiple air force sorties as the prime minister sats— sorties as the prime minister says, christian— sorties as the prime minister says, christian values of ttteranse, — says, christian values of tolerance, compassion and sharttt— tolerance, compassion and sharttt are— tolerance, compassion and charity are part— tolerance, compassion and charity are part of the british tatrts— charity are part of the british tatrts. tn— charity are part of the british fabric. in his— charity are part of the british fabric. in his easter message, tttsht— fabric. in his easter message, tttsht stntt— fabric. in his easter message, rishi sunak also— fabric. in his easter message, rishi sunak also said that taster— rishi sunak also said that easter sunday— rishi sunak also said that easter sunday gives us all a shanse— easter sunday gives us all a shanse tt— easter sunday gives us all a chance to reflect— easter sunday gives us all a chance to reflect on the contribution— chance to reflect on the contribution that christian communities— contribution that christian communities make across the sttntrt— communities make across the sttntrt. hr. — communities make across the country. mr. sunak , who is country. mr. sunak, who is a htntt— country. mr. sunak, who is a hindu, finished— country. mr. sunak, who is a hindu, finished his message by wtshtnt— hindu, finished his message by wtshtnt ah— hindu, finished his message by wishing all those— hindu, finished his message by wishing all those celebrating tttat— wishing all those celebrating tttat a— wishing all those celebrating tttat a tert— wishing all those celebrating today a very happy easter. more on today a very happy easter. more tn tt— today a very happy easter. more tn tv tnhne— today a very happy easter. more on tv online on— today a very happy easter. more on tv online on dab radio and on tune— on tv online on dab radio and on ttne tn.— on tv online on dab radio and on ttne tn. thts— on tv online on dab radio and on ttne tn. thts ts— on tv online on dab radio and on tune in. this is gb— on tv online on dab radio and on tune in. this is gb news. back tt— tune in. this is gb news. back tt .— now to. chris sttt- now to. chris good morning and now to. chris— good morning and happy tt. chrts— good morning and happy easter wetstne— good morning and happy easter now. welcome back- good morning and happy easter now. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. with me, christopher hope. i'm sitting in while camilla takes a very well—earned break. we've got a lot more coming up on the show just one moment. we'll be going to belfast for a special edition

of the people's panel. we'll be speaking academic and speaking to the academic and pollster goodwin pollster matthew goodwin about his it's easter his new book. and as it's easter sunday, we'll be hearing from the bishop of saint albans, alan smith, man who the smith, the man who convenes the bishops the house of bishops who sit in the house of lords. but first, 25 years ago tomorrow , an historic agreement tomorrow, an historic agreement was signed between the uk and ireland and parties in northern ireland. the good friday agreement set up a new devolved government for northern ireland, which would include representation from both the unionist and nationalist communities , helped to end over communities, helped to end over 30 years of violence in northern ireland. one of the men who signed that treaty was bertie ahern, the irish premier or taoiseach. earlier this week he sat down and spoke to arlene foster gb news presenter and former first minister of . former first minister of. northern ireland, bertie ahern, t—shirt. for 11 years you became an — t—shirt. for 11 years you became an tert— t—shirt. for 11 years you became an tert ntsh— t—shirt. for 11 years you became an tert ntsh a— ”c for 11 years you became am very much a politician from htthn— am very much a politician from htthn ant— am very much a politician from dublin and you— am very much a politician from dublin and you became then the heater— dublin and you became then the heater tt— dublin and you became then the leader of fianna— dublin and you became then the leader of fianna fail and

tattseash— leader of fianna fail and taoiseach in— leader of fianna fail and taoiseach in 1997, around the tne— taoiseach in 1997, around the ttne as— taoiseach in 1997, around the same time as tony blair became trtne— same time as tony blair became prime minister— same time as tony blair became prime minister in— same time as tony blair became prime minister in the uk. and ttst— prime minister in the uk. and rtst tettre— prime minister in the uk. and just before that— prime minister in the uk. and just before that had the first htt— just before that had the first ira ceasefire— just before that had the first ira ceasefire in— just before that had the first ira ceasefire in 1994. and then we-t— ira ceasefire in 1994. and then we-t hat— ira ceasefire in 1994. and then we-t hat the— ira ceasefire in 1994. and then we'd had the forum elections in tstte— we'd had the forum elections in the ant— we'd had the forum elections in 1996 and northern— we'd had the forum elections in 1996 and northern ireland were or 1996 and northern ireland were tr nthttstans— 1996 and northern ireland were or politicians were _ 1996 and northern ireland were or politicians were coming tttether— or politicians were coming tttether tt— or politicians were coming together to have conversations. hatte— together to have conversations. hatte ttr— together to have conversations. hatte ttr the— together to have conversations. maybe for the first time in a htnt— maybe for the first time in a ttnt tne— maybe for the first time in a ttnt ttne .— maybe for the first time in a long time . and— maybe for the first time in a long time . and then sean , after long time. and then sean, after you— long time. and then sean, after ttt tesae— long time. and then sean, after you became taoiseach, we had the sestnt— you became taoiseach, we had the sestnt htt— you became taoiseach, we had the second ira ceasefire.— you became taoiseach, we had the second ira ceasefire. my my involvement— second ira ceasefire. my my involvement probably intensified htn— involvement probably intensified trtn the— involvement probably intensified trtn the ttte— involvement probably intensified from the 9192 talks. c from the 9192 talks. i wasn't part— from the 9192 talks. i wasn't tart tt— from the 9192 talks. i wasn't part at the— from the 9192 talks. i wasn't part of the team, but i was finance minister then. so i was very involved in that. and then when i was finance minister, typekit reynolds, so right through that 93 when we were working on the downing street declaration, i was very involved in that team. and then into 94, which was the ceasefires, which was a great year because it was great hope and great, great, great hope and great, great, great confidence. 95 went the other way because nothing happenedin other way because nothing happened in 95. and then tony

blair and i kind of met up at that stage in 94, and we started working together on the basis when he was in opposition. and both of us were leaders- when he was in opposition. and both of us were leaders of- both of us were leaders of the tnntsttttn. — both of us were leaders of the tnntsttttn. st— both of us were leaders of the opposition. so both- both of us were leaders of the opposition. so both of us started working. what would happenif started working. what would happen if we were there, what we would we tried to do. so we had a lot engagement with mo and a lot of engagement with mo and 95, 96. so we were kind of ready. we had our plan in in 97 and now he had a huge majority. he was going to win by a score. i had my erg game down. he was always close. so so we were hoping so anyway, he got into me. i got into june and then off we went. yes. and then , as we went. yes. and then, as i say,— we went. yes. and then, as i sat, the— we went. yes. and then, as i say, the second— we went. yes. and then, as i say, the second ira- “cit? and then, as i say, the second ira ceasefire ant— say, the second ira ceasefire came and that,— say, the second ira ceasefire came and that, of course helped you— came and that, of course helped ttt tn— came and that, of course helped ttt tn tttr— came and that, of course helped you in your planning because you had you in your planning because you hat httet— you in your planning because you hat httet tt— you in your planning because you had hoped to start— you in your planning because you had hoped to start the ball rthtnt— had hoped to start the ball rolling. yeah,— had hoped to start the ball rolling. yeah, i— had hoped to start the ball rolling. yeah, i mean, if we tttn-t— rolling. yeah, i mean, if we tttn-t tet— rolling. yeah, i mean, if we didn't get that— rolling. yeah, i mean, if we didn't get that ceasefire, there wtttt— didn't get that ceasefire, there wtttt te— didn't get that ceasefire, there wtttt he nt— didn't get that ceasefire, there would be no talks. fit: c didn't get that ceasefire, there would be no talks. air: c would be no talks. so and it was that— would be no talks. so and it was that narrow window in which, as you know, was contentious at the time because we only had the ceasefire in july. and then our plan to start the talks in

plan was to start the talks in september, which was, you know, problematic the time. problematic at the time. looking back then and looking problematic at the time. - looking back then and looking at the ssenttstsn— looking back then and looking at the scepticism of— looking back then and looking at the scepticism of unionism at that— the scepticism of unionism at that-t— the scepticism of unionism at that-t rnean— the scepticism of unionism at that-i mean,-you. that time, i mean, did you understand— that time, i mean, did you understand that given what had hannenet— understand that given what had hannenet tter— understand that given what had happened over the 30 years? happened over the past 30 years? i happened over the past 30 years? t ttt— happened over the past 30 years? t ttt . — happened over the past 30 years? t ttt . |ttt— happened over the past 30 years? |did. |did because— happened over the past 30 years? |did. |did because i- happened over the past 30 years? i did . t: t: f i did. i did because i was one of the younger guys in fianna fail in those days and i did a lot the student debates. so lot of the student debates. so and in various unionist so and in various unionist people ttwn tt— and in various unionist people come down to those . in fact, in come down to those. in fact, in tettret— come down to those. in fact, in jeffrey donaldson— come down to those. in fact, in jeffrey donaldson was one of thtse— jeffrey donaldson was one of thtse ttts— jeffrey donaldson was one of those guys who— jeffrey donaldson was one of those guys who always came down, tn the— those guys who always came down, tn the so— those guys who always came down, even in the 80 seconds. so did i got even in the 80 seconds. so did i ttt tt— even in the 80 seconds. so did i ttt tt tntw— even in the 80 seconds. so did i got to know him _ even in the 80 seconds. so did i got to know him in— even in the 80 seconds. so did i got to know him in those and ttts— got to know him in those and ttts tt— got to know him in those and lots of others. _ got to know him in those and lots of others. ipsis has come ttwn— lots of others. ipsis has come ttwn st— lots of others. ipsis has come ttwn st ant— lots of others. ipsis has come down so and of— lots of others. ipsis has come down so and of course, we'd atwats— down so and of course, we'd atwats he,— down so and of course, we'd atwats he, ttt— down so and of course, we'd always be, you know , at each always be, you know, at each tther-s— always be, you know, at each other's throat _ always be, you know, at each other's throat a _ always be, you know, at each other's throat a bit in the tetates— other's throat a bit in the debates because the motions were atwats— debates because the motions were atwats-ttt— debates because the motions were atwatslttt ttt— debates because the motions were always.-you did get- debates because the motions were always. you did get the always. but you did get the sense .was very- always. but you did get the sense was very useful in sense it was very useful in trtnttt— sense it was very useful in trtnttt tr— sense it was very useful in trinity or ucd,_ sense it was very useful in trinity or ucd, dcu of where tnttntsts— trinity or ucd, dcu of where unionists were— trinity or ucd, dcu of where unionists were at. and it was a tert— unionists were at. and it was a tert attt— unionists were at. and it was a very good education because like the tetates— very good education because like the debates were— very good education because like the debates were light—hearted and the debates were light—hearted ant ttten— the debates were light—hearted ant ttten .— the debates were light—hearted ant ttten , ttt— the debates were light—hearted and often , you know, the debates and often, you know, the debates tttth— and often, you know, the debates tttth .— and often, you know, the debates tttth , ttt— and often, you know, the debates were tough , but then you'd meet were tough, but then you'd meet atterwarts— were tough, but then you'd meet afterwards and— were tough, but then you'd meet afterwards and you'd have a stnersatttn— afterwards and you'd have a conversation and you'd get the tt tt— conversation and you'd get the sense of, of the— conversation and you'd get the sense of, of the violence and, you— sense of, of the violence and,

ttt tntw— sense of, of the violence and, ttt tntw the— sense of, of the violence and, you know, the victims and, you tntw— you know, the victims and, you tntw tte— you know, the victims and, you tntw, tte ttt— you know, the victims and, you know, you've got a— you know, the victims and, you know, you've got a far better tnterstant— know, you've got a far better understand them than just watshtnt— understand them than just watching the— understand them than just watching the news or reading the haters. — watching the news or reading the haters. ant— watching the news or reading the papers. and you've— watching the news or reading the papers. g papers. and you've been talking a lot about the belfast agreement. obviously because we're in this 25th anniversary and has tony blair. and i've and so has tony blair. and i've noficed and so has tony blair. and i've noticed that both of have noticed that both of you have been strong on been very strong on relationships and trust and just what you're talking about, you know, trying to understand the other side, as it were, and where they're coming from. i mean, that was critical, surely, to building that trust up until i mean, to be honest, if you know, you know, the way it is in politics, people say, you know, leaders very strong leaders should be very strong and and they should and forthright and they should be their views and they be clear on their views and they should. the reality is, if you do should. the reality is, if you tt rat,— should. the reality is, if you tt that, ttt— should. the reality is, if you do that, you never- : the reality is, if you do that, you never do anything. tesase— do that, you never do anything. tesatselttt— do that, you never do anything. becauselyou don't- do that, you never do anything. because you don't go in to because if you don't go in to try because if you don't go in to trt-sttttttns- because if you don't go in to try-solutions and. try and find solutions and compromises— try and find solutions and compromises understand compromises and understand tetate— compromises and understand people confidence compromises and understand- people-confidence and people and build confidence and trust,— people and build confidence and nra...— people and build confidence and trust,- ttt-e— people and build confidence and trust, , you're wasting trust, well, you're wasting your satse —tttnt- trust, well, you're wasting your satse —tttnt tt- trust, well, you're wasting your space.-going to do. space. you're not going to do antthht— space. you're not going to do antthtntlt— space. you're not going to do anything..| think- space. you're not going to do anything. i think what what anything. so i think what what i atwats— anything. so i think what what i atwats trt— anything. so i think what what i atwats trt tt— anything. so i think what what i atwats trt tt tt— anything. so i think what what i always try to do, i— anything. so i think what what i always try to do, i very much htnet— always try to do, i very much htnet nt— always try to do, i very much honed my thinking around where do honed my thinking around where tt ttt— honed my thinking around where tt ttt trnt— honed my thinking around where tt ttt ttnt the— honed my thinking around where do you find the middle ground? where— do you find the middle ground? where ttt— do you find the middle ground? where you understand the problem— where you understand the problem, understand what people

are problem, understand what people satht— problem, understand what people sattnt, ant— problem, understand what people are saying, and then try and see if are saying, and then try and see tt ttt— are saying, and then try and see tt ttt san— are saying, and then try and see tt ttt te— are saying, and then try and see if you can be of— are saying, and then try and see if you can be of some use to the to if you can be of some use to the tt the— if you can be of some use to the tt the nrtsess— if you can be of some use to the to the process. and— if you can be of some use to the to the process. and the more you do to the process. and the more you ttlthe— to the process. and the more you ttlthe-ttt— to the process. and the more you do the you understand do it, the more you understand tesase— do it, the more you understand tesatse-tt— do it, the more you understand because-do see- do it, the more you understand because do see where because you you do see where where— because you you do see where where the — because you you do see where where the other— because you you do see where where the other person is at and why— where the other person is at and wht thet-re— where the other person is at and wht thet-re at— where the other person is at and why they're at that— where the other person is at and why they're at that position. ant— why they're at that position. hnt thet-re — why they're at that position. and they're not— why they're at that position. and they're not at it because tttat— and they're not at it because tttat ts— and they're not at it because today is monday— and they're not at it because today is monday and yesterday stntat.— today is monday and yesterday stntat. t— today is monday and yesterday was sunday. i mean, they're out of was sunday. i mean, they're out tt tesase— was sunday. i mean, they're out tt tease tt— was sunday. i mean, they're out of because of some— was sunday. i mean, they're out of because of some huge stnttstttn— of because of some huge conviction in— of because of some huge conviction in their life. so, you— conviction in their life. so, ttt—that- conviction in their life. so, ttt—that wasl conviction in their life. so,- you _that was always you know, that that was always what— you know, that that was always what|trtet — you know, that that was always what|tried-and- you know, that that was always whatitried-and i- you know, that that was always. what|tried-and i mean, what i tried to do. and i mean, applying that to post 2016, do you think that's where maybe all politicians have lost their way a little bit in terms of not trying understand and where trying to understand and where the other party was coming from? yeah, there's no no doubt about it yeah, there's no no doubt about t that— yeah, there's no no doubt about t that t— yeah, there's no no doubt about it that i mean,— yeah, there's no no doubt about it that i mean, i— yeah, there's no no doubt about it that i mean, i think in in esent— it that i mean, i think in in resent teas — it that i mean, i think in in recent years, i— it that i mean, i think in in recent years, i mean, if eetrtne— recent years, i mean, if everyone takes up their position and everyone takes up their position ant ttt— everyone takes up their position ant ttt san— everyone takes up their position and you can understand one 9f0upt_ and you can understand one 9f0upt tt— and you can understand one 9f0upt tt tt— and you can understand one group, do it the— and you can understand one group, do it the other group do it, group, do it the other group do a, ttt— group, do it the other group do tt, ttt tntw— group, do it the other group do it, you know, so— group, do it the other group do it, you know, so and then it testnes— it, you know, so and then it becomes a spiral- it, you know, so and then it becomes a spiral . yeah, zero sum becomes a spiral. yeah, zero sum tame— becomes a spiral. yeah, zero sum tane ant,— becomes a spiral. yeah, zero sum tane ant, ant— becomes a spiral. yeah, zero sum game and, and that's the tttttstttt— game and, and that's the difficulty. and— game and, and that's the difficulty. and you know, and it's difficulty. and you know, and he nrttattt— difficulty. and you know, and it's probably not— difficulty. and you know, and it's probably not only in our nthttss— it's probably not only in our ntttttss ttt— it's probably not only in our politics, you see— it's probably not only in our politics, you see in america, ttt— politics, you see in america, ttt tntw— politics, you see in america, ttt tntw t— politics, you see in america, you know, i mean, god help us. i

tts— you know, i mean, god help us. i tt-s the— you know, i mean, god help us. i mean, it's the it's— you know, i mean, god help us. i mean, it's the it's the free wtrtt— mean, it's the it's the free wtrtt ant— mean, it's the it's the free world and the— mean, it's the it's the free world and the great democracy that— world and the great democracy that t— world and the great democracy that t tttet— world and the great democracy that i loved. i— world and the great democracy that i loved. i mean, i love hnertsan— that i loved. i mean, i love american politics sometimes as a kid ,_ american politics sometimes as a ht , ttt— american politics sometimes as a ttt , ttt tntw— american politics sometimes as a kid , you know, and— american politics sometimes as a kid , you know, and probably more kid, you know, and probably more tnteresttnt— kid, you know, and probably more interestingt t— kid, you know, and probably more interesting, i wasn't— kid, you know, and probably more interesting, i wasn't any other tthttstan— interesting, i wasn't any other politician watching , you know, politician watching, you know, my politician watching, you know, rnt tather— politician watching, you know, nt tather ant— politician watching, you know, my father and mother love kennedy— my father and mother love hennett ant— my father and mother love kennedy and all of this stuff. ant— kennedy and all of this stuff. hnt ttt-t— kennedy and all of this stuff. hnt ttt-t te— kennedy and all of this stuff. and you'd be watching. but like now— and you'd be watching. but like nttttt— and you'd be watching. but like now, nobody wants deal. and now, nobody wants to deal. and i thtnt— now, nobody wants to deal. and i thtnt that-s— now, nobody wants to deal. and i think that's where _ now, nobody wants to deal. and i think that's where our you know, hatte— think that's where our you know, natte wete— think that's where our you know, natte wetea-— think that's where our you know, maybe we've-a bit- think that's where our you know, maybe we've a bit as maybe we've got a bit lost as wett— maybe we've got a bit lost as weh-eterttne— maybe we've got a bit lost as well everyone just sets, well that everyone just sets, you— well that everyone just sets, ttt tntw— well that everyone just sets, you know, their— well that everyone just sets, you know, their position and then— you know, their position and then nttttt— you know, their position and then nobody nobody wants to move ttrwart— then nobody nobody wants to move ttrwart-ttt— then nobody nobody wants to move forward-you know,- forward because, you know, thet-re— forward because, you know, they're there's— forward because, you know, they're there's so much in the in they're there's so much in the tn the— they're there's so much in the in the absence— they're there's so much in the in the absence of— they're there's so much in the in the absence of violence, then you— in the absence of violence, then ttt hate— in the absence of violence, then ttt hate tt— in the absence of violence, then you have to make— in the absence of violence, then you have to make political nrttress.— you have to make political nrttress. ant— you have to make political progress. and i— you have to make political progress. and i think you'd be a bit progress. and i think you'd be a ttt tearttt— progress. and i think you'd be a bit fearful of— progress. and i think you'd be a bit fearful of a— progress. and i think you'd be a bit fearful of a new generation , vou— bit fearful of a new generation , ttt tntw— bit fearful of a new generation , ttt tntw tar— bit fearful of a new generation , you know, far younger than me , you know, far younger than me , that— , you know, far younger than me , that thet— , you know, far younger than me , that they don't— , you know, far younger than me , that they don't remember where all , that they don't remember where ah thts— , that they don't remember where ah thts was— , that they don't remember where all this was and— , that they don't remember where all this was and they just don't tnterstant— all this was and they just don't understand that— all this was and they just don't understand that we need to make strnrtrntses— understand that we need to make strnrtrntnses tt— understand that we need to make compromises to move forward tesase— compromises to move forward tease tt— compromises to move forward tease tt ts— compromises to move forward tease tt ts a— compromises to move forward because it is a shared space. we sttt— because it is a shared space. we stttt hate— because it is a shared space. we stttt hate a— because it is a shared space. we still have a divided— because it is a shared space. we still have a divided society. there— still have a divided society. there ts— still have a divided society. there is the _ still have a divided society. there is the britishness and trtshness— there is the britishness and irishness are— there is the britishness and irishness are both, you know, so we hate— irishness are both, you know, so we hate tt— irishness are both, you know, so we hate tt teet— irishness are both, you know, so we have to keep to— irishness are both, you know, so we have to keep to continue to wtrt— we have to keep to continue to wtrt at— we have to keep to continue to wtrt at-hnt— we have to keep to continue to work at-and there- we have to keep to continue to work at and there doesn't work at that. and there doesn't tt— work at that. and there doesn't tt te— work at that. and there doesn't tt he an— work at that. and there doesn't seem to be an awful lot in that

at the— seem to be an awful lot in that at the moment. _ seem to be an awful lot in that at the moment. i— seem to be an awful lot in that at the moment. i : at the moment. i sat in a debate last week around legacy and lord eames was talking about the fact that haven't spent enough that we haven't spent enough time reconciliation on time on reconciliation on recently and looking back at the belfast agreement, if you could go back today and insert a couple of things, what would those things be, bertie? what would you try and do? i think there were probably- would you try and do? i think there were probably two- there were probably two things that— there were probably two things that that— there were probably two things that that that— there were probably two things that that that were a pity that, you— that that that were a pity that, ttt tntw — that that that were a pity that, you know, decommit and became a ntthtnare— you know, decommit and became a ntthtnare .— you know, decommit and became a ntthtnare . that— you know, decommit and became a nightmare . that was— you know, decommit and became a nightmare . that was the first nightmare. that was the first thtnt. — nightmare. that was the first thtnt. ant,— nightmare. that was the first thing. and, and— nightmare. that was the first thing. and, and it got us off to a hat— thing. and, and it got us off to a hat start,— thing. and, and it got us off to a bad start, you— thing. and, and it got us off to a bad start, you know , it's like a bad start, you know, it's like in a bad start, you know, it's like tn nt— a bad start, you know, it's like tn rnt tatt— a bad start, you know, it's like tn rnt tatt has— a bad start, you know, it's like in my faux pas terms, we were three— in my faux pas terms, we were three ttwn— in my faux pas terms, we were three down before— in my faux pas terms, we were three down before you start, you tntwe— three down before you start, you tntwe tnt— three down before you start, you tntwe hnt t— three down before you start, you know? and i think— three down before you start, you know? and i think that was a pity— know? and i think that was a httt hesse— know? and i think that was a pity because we,— know? and i think that was a pity because we, we spent huge enertt— pity because we, we spent huge enertt, ttnt— pity because we, we spent huge energy, tony blair— pity because we, we spent huge energy, tony blair and spent htte— energy, tony blair and spent htte enertt— energy, tony blair and spent huge energy from 98 to 2003, ttte— huge energy from 98 to 2003, ttte hart— huge energy from 98 to 2003, five hard years— huge energy from 98 to 2003, five hard years . _ huge energy from 98 to 2003, five hard years . �*ft�*ticc c f five hard years. well, it became the only topic during those years, didn't it? and that's herttt. — years, didn't it? and that's herttt. we— years, didn't it? and that's period. we should- t: t: c c?” and that's period. we should have been tetttnt— period. we should have been tetttnt a— period. we should have been tetttnt a good— period. we should have been getting a good wind behind and ther— getting a good wind behind and tther thtnas— getting a good wind behind and other things. and— getting a good wind behind and other things. and then the other thtna— other things. and then the other thtnt ts— other things. and then the other thtnt ts tetast— other things. and then the other thing is legacy. we did not and

our thing is legacy. we did not and tetast— thing is legacy. we did not and tetast, ttst— thing is legacy. we did not and our legacy, just the other day i met— our legacy, just the other day i met reverend— our legacy, just the other day i met reverend mason , the met reverend mason, the hethtttst— met reverend mason, the methodist leader. i met a group wtth— methodist leader. i met a group wtth htn— methodist leader. i met a group wtth htn ant— methodist leader. i met a group with him and there was one girl there— with him and there was one girl there wht— with him and there was one girl there who really— with him and there was one girl there who really struck me. her tather— there who really struck me. her tather was— there who really struck me. her tather an— there who really struck me. her father was an ruc_ there who really struck me. her father was an ruc man and was the htt— father was an ruc man and was the ttth htew— father was an ruc man and was the ira blew blew— father was an ruc man and was the ira blew blew her father up and the ira blew blew her father up ant tn— the ira blew blew her father up ant tn the— the ira blew blew her father up and in the process— the ira blew blew her father up and in the process blew her ntther— and in the process blew her ntther th— and in the process blew her mother up. the— and in the process blew her mother up. the two of them were tttet— mother up. the two of them were thtet ant— mother up. the two of them were killed and ten— mother up. the two of them were killed and ten years later , she killed and ten years later, she was involved— killed and ten years later, she was involved in— killed and ten years later, she was involved in the bomb where the htt— was involved in the bomb where the ira killed— was involved in the bomb where the ira killed six— was involved in the bomb where the ira killed six british stttters— the ira killed six british soldiers and— the ira killed six british soldiers and she lost her legs. teth— soldiers and she lost her legs. teah ttt— soldiers and she lost her legs. yeah, you know,— soldiers and she lost her legs. yeah, you know, it— soldiers and she lost her legs. yeah, you know, it was a horror sttrt— yeah, you know, it was a horror sttrt tn— yeah, you know, it was a horror sttrt tn her— yeah, you know, it was a horror story in her life.— yeah, you know, it was a horror story in her life. you're struck by story in her life. you're struck ht these— story in her life. you're struck by these things. _ story in her life. you're struck by these things. i— story in her life. you're struck by these things. i know these states— by these things. i know these sttrtes tt— by these things. i know these stories go through all the communities. _ stories go through all the communities. but, you know , that communities. but, you know, that that— communities. but, you know, that that-tsste— communities. but, you know, that that-tsste ts— communities. but, you know, that that-issue is still- that legacy issue is still there.— that legacy issue is still there. tn— that legacy issue is still there. i'm not- that legacy issue is still there. i'm not sure how you deal wtth— there. i'm not sure how you deal wtth ht.— there. i'm not sure how you deal wtth t. t— there. i'm not sure how you deal wtth t. t hat— there. i'm not sure how you deal with it. i had the— there. i'm not sure how you deal with it. i had the honour of neettnt— with it. i had the honour of neettnt the— with it. i had the honour of meeting the clarke and mandela here— meeting the clarke and mandela here when— meeting the clarke and mandela here when we— meeting the clarke and mandela here when we had— meeting the clarke and mandela here when we had the forum for tease— here when we had the forum for tease ant— here when we had the forum for peace and reconciliation in the eartt— peace and reconciliation in the eartt tears— peace and reconciliation in the early years before— peace and reconciliation in the early years before that group sthatset— early years before that group collapsed. and— early years before that group collapsed. and when the easerte— collapsed. and when the ceasefire broke down and it never came back, which was a pity— never came back, which was a httt tesse— never came back, which was a pity because they— never came back, which was a pity because they were looking at reconciliation _ pity because they were looking at reconciliation and you know, trttnt— at reconciliation and you know, trttnt tt— at reconciliation and you know, trttnt tt htht— at reconciliation and you know, trying to build a— at reconciliation and you know, trying to build a confidence. ttnt— trying to build a confidence. hnt when— trying to build a confidence. hnt when t— trying to build a confidence. and when i asked after meeting the tens— and when i asked after meeting the cleric and— and when i asked after meeting the cleric and mandela , was

the cleric and mandela, was there— the cleric and mandela, was there ant— the cleric and mandela, was there any takers— the cleric and mandela, was there any takers for the south htrtsan— there any takers for the south african model— there any takers for the south african model ,_ there any takers for the south african model, and i there any takers for the south african model , and i always african model, and i always remember because i was left in the rttn— remember because i was left in the tn— remember because i was left in the tn nt— remember because i was left in the room on my own, all sides tttn-t— the room on my own, all sides tttn-t want— the room on my own, all sides didn't want to— the room on my own, all sides didn't want to get— the room on my own, all sides didn't want to get into that. tnt— didn't want to get into that. hnt that-s— didn't want to get into that. and that's 25— didn't want to get into that. and that's 25 years ago. and we sttt— and that's 25 years ago. and we stttt haven-t— and that's 25 years ago. and we still haven't solved— and that's 25 years ago. and we still haven't solved it. yeah, it still haven't solved it. yeah, tt ts— still haven't solved it. yeah, tt ts a— still haven't solved it. yeah, tt ts a tert— still haven't solved it. yeah, it is a very difficult thing for a ttt— it is a very difficult thing for a ttt tt— it is a very difficult thing for a lot of victims. _ it is a very difficult thing for a lot of victims. - it is a very difficult thing for a lot of victims. �*ft�*“ti“ a lot of victims. when they saw the prisoners getting out of jail and yet they were just meant to move on and forget what had happened . yeah. and in some had happened. yeah. and in some cases , as some of— had happened. yeah. and in some cases , as some of them- “tit: : yeah. and in some cases , as some of them pointed cases, as some of them pointed ttt— cases, as some of them pointed ttt tt— cases, as some of them pointed ttt tt ne— cases, as some of them pointed ttt tt ne .— cases, as some of them pointed ttt tt ne , thet— cases, as some of them pointed out to me , they saw some of the out to me, they saw some of the hethte— out to me, they saw some of the hethte wht— out to me, they saw some of the hethte wht were— out to me, they saw some of the people who were involved in the trtthtes— people who were involved in the troubles receive _ people who were involved in the troubles receive in— people who were involved in the troubles receive in compensation when— troubles receive in compensation when thet— troubles receive in compensation when thet ant— troubles receive in compensation when they and you— troubles receive in compensation when they and you can understand it when they and you can understand tt ttte— when they and you can understand tt ttte ttt— when they and you can understand tt ttte ttt hate— when they and you can understand it like you have to— when they and you can understand it like you have to get a collective— it like you have to get a collective solution in. but i'm ntt— collective solution in. but i'm ntt sattnt— collective solution in. but i'm ntt sattnt tts— collective solution in. but i'm not saying it's easy but you neet— not saying it's easy but you neet ttt— not saying it's easy but you need you need— not saying it's easy but you need you need something some way of need you need something some way tt arttnt— need you need something some way tt ttttnt ste— need you need something some way of giving some closure. i don't thtnt— of giving some closure. i don't thtnt tts— of giving some closure. i don't think it's possible— of giving some closure. i don't think it's possible to get total ststret ttt— think it's possible to get total closure. you know, because a lot of closure. you know, because a lot tt tts— closure. you know, because a lot tt tt-s herstnat— closure. you know, because a lot of it's personal as— closure. you know, because a lot of it's personal as well. yeah. ttnt— of it's personal as well. yeah. hnt t— of it's personal as well. yeah. and i understand— of it's personal as well. yeah. and i understand that. i don't tnterstant— and i understand that. i don't understand. but.— and i understand that. i don't understand. but. but i think we haven-t— understand. but. but i think we haten-t ttt— understand. but. but i think we haten-t ttt tt— understand. but. but i think we haven't got to a— understand. but. but i think we

haven't got to a position that you— haven't got to a position that ttt san— haven't got to a position that ttt he— haven't got to a position that you can be comfortable with and that— you can be comfortable with and that t— you can be comfortable with and that t teet— you can be comfortable with and that i feel comfortable with . that i feel comfortable with. ttnt— that i feel comfortable with. hnt 25— that i feel comfortable with. hnt zs tears— that i feel comfortable with. and 25 years on,— that i feel comfortable with. and 25 years on, i think if you ask— and 25 years on, i think if you ask me— and 25 years on, i think if you ask me the— and 25 years on, i think if you ask me the question, the commissioner— ask me the question, the commissioner at the start now, i thtnt— commissioner at the start now, i thtnt tetast— commissioner at the start now, i think legacy and— commissioner at the start now, i think legacy and then the last bit think legacy and then the last htt we— think legacy and then the last bit we should— think legacy and then the last bit we should try— think legacy and then the last bit we should try i think to ttnt— bit we should try i think to ttnt ste— bit we should try i think to find some way— bit we should try i think to find some way where there can be tntttnt— find some way where there can be tntttnt tresh— find some way where there can be ongoing fresh thinking of what is ongoing fresh thinking of what ts the— ongoing fresh thinking of what ts the next— ongoing fresh thinking of what is the next steps— ongoing fresh thinking of what is the next steps because. �*ft�*ticc is the next steps because. well i is the next steps because. well t wa— is the next steps because. well t attnt— is the next steps because. well twa attnt tt— is the next steps because. well i was going to ask— is the next steps because. well i was going to ask you about that. i was going to ask you if i'm back here in 25 years with you, bertie, what will we be talking about then? my personal view, i mean, we've only had i remember putting in the review clause and there was a discussion early on, not in the last week, but maybe a few months out. and we had a ttsstssttn— months out. and we had a discussion we discussion one evening and we sat— discussion one evening and we sat we-t— discussion one evening and we sat wet-htt- discussion one evening and we sat we-t-htt a- discussion one evening and we said we'd put a review said we'd better put a review tsase— said we'd better put a review tsase htt— said we'd better put a review clause into this.— said we'd better put a review clause into this. whatever happens— clause into this. whatever happens, because there will be thes— happens, because there will be times—stances- times when circum stances shante— times when circum stances shante, hethte— times when circum stances change, people change, times shante— change, people change, times shante. tnt— change, people change, times change. and so— change, people change, times change. and so we put in the review clause.— change. and so we put in the review clause. we've only had tn— review clause. we've only had tn whtsh— review clause. we've only had one in which you're familiar wtth— one in which you're familiar wtth ant— one in which you're familiar with and sank— one in which you're familiar with and sank down. bruce and we hate— with and sank down. bruce and we made some changes— with and sank down. bruce and we made some changes in that. i thtnt— made some changes in that. i thtnt hrthahtt— made some changes in that. i think probably get the think probably if we get the institutions— think probably if we get the institutions up— think probably if we get the institutions up and hopefully i

keep— institutions up and hopefully i teehlsattnt— institutions up and hopefully i keep saying when we them keep on saying when we get them up, keep on saying when we get them trt-when— keep on saying when we get them trt-when we— keep on saying when we get them trt-when we tet— keep on saying when we get them up, when we get them up up, so, so when we get them up ant— up, so, so when we get them up ant there— up, so, so when we get them up ant there t— up, so, so when we get them up and there i think— up, so, so when we get them up and there i think there is a nesessttt— and there i think there is a necessity for— and there i think there is a necessity for review. we have to get twat— necessity for review. we have to get awat trtn — necessity for review. we have to get away from the— necessity for review. we have to get away from the position that this get away from the position that thts ts— get away from the position that thts ts sttrt— get away from the position that thts ts stth, gt,— get away from the position that this is stop, go, stop, start. ttnt— this is stop, go, stop, start. hntlhas— this is stop, go, stop, start. andlhas been— this is stop, go, stop, start. and has been since 1990, it's and it has been since 1990, it's heen— and it has been since 1990, it's heen panth— and it has been since 1990, it's been painful. and— and it has been since 1990, it's been painful. and i think we hate— been painful. and i think we hate tt— been painful. and i think we have to find— been painful. and i think we have to find a— been painful. and i think we have to find a way that now i tntw— have to find a way that now i tntw tt— have to find a way that now i tntw t has— have to find a way that now i know it has to— have to find a way that now i know it has to be— know it has to be cross—community consent tntw t has tt he— cross—community consent because if cross—community consent because t we— cross—community consent because t we ttnt— cross—community consent because t we ttn-t tt— cross—community consent because if we don't do that,— cross—community consent because if we don't do that, i— cross—community consent because if we don't do that, i noticed tony— if we don't do that, i noticed ttnt htatr-s— if we don't do that, i noticed tony blair's remarks about that, that— tony blair's remarks about that, that ttt— tony blair's remarks about that, that ttt tntw— tony blair's remarks about that, that you know, if— tony blair's remarks about that, that you know, if you're going to.something,_ that you know, if you're going to.something, it- that you know, if you're going to something, it has to be to do something, it has to be stnethtnt— to do something, it has to be something that— to do something, it has to be- something that-agrees something that everybody agrees tt. —atree— something that everybody agrees tt. —atreewtth- something that everybody agreesi to. _agree with that? to. you would agree with that? i agree with that, because- to. /tit. : at: 3&7 i agree with that, because our whtte— i agree with that, because our whtte-tntw— i agree with that, because our whole - know, the - i agree with that, because our whole know, the whole whole you know, the whole foundations— whole you know, the whole foundations of— whole you know, the whole foundations of anything that we hate— foundations of anything that we hate-tte— foundations of anything that we have i've achieved have achieved, i've achieved etertthtnt— have achieved, i've achieved everything anything we have everything with anything we have ashtetet— everything with anything we have achieved,-based- everything with anything we have achieved,-based on- everything with anything we have achieved, based on on achieved, i think is based on on cross—community— cross—community consent. but the reatttt— cross—community consent. but the reatttt-ttn-t— cross—community consent. but the reatttt-ttn-t tet— reality is, if we don't get agreements,— reality is, if we don't get agreements, you know, we're attnt— agreements, you know, we're attnt-htt— agreements, you know, we're going into trouble. you going to run into trouble. you nttht— going to run into trouble. you might-todavt- going to run into trouble. you. might-today,-you'll might get over today, but you'll be might get over today, but you'll he tn— might get over today, but you'll he tn trtthte— might get over today, but you'll be in trouble next— might get over today, but you'll be in trouble next week. so i thtnt— be in trouble next week. so i thtnt we— be in trouble next week. so i thtnt we-trt- be in trouble next week. so i think we-try and- be in trouble next week. so i think we try and find a think we need to try and find a way— think we need to try and find a wat where— think we need to try and find a way where institutions all way where institutions and all of way where institutions and all tt the— way where institutions and all of the institutions, all of then,— of the institutions, all of them,-there's. of the institutions, all of them,-there's 5 of them, because there's 4 or 5 of then — them, because there's 4 or 5 of then lthe— them, because there's 4 or 5 of them .the women _ them, because there's 4 or 5 of them the women that that they them in the women that that they tntt— them in the women that that they tntt stttahse— them in the women that that they only collapse when— them in the women that that they only collapse when it's election the. — only collapse when it's election the. .we— only collapse when it's election the. .we ttst— only collapse when it's election time. .we just have- only collapse when it's election time. we just have to get time. and we just have to get

that— time. and we just have to get that hasts— time. and we just have to get that basis and— time. and we just have to get that basis and people have to. tnt— that basis and people have to. hnt t— that basis and people have to. hnt t thtnt— that basis and people have to. and i think if— that basis and people have to. and i think if that's done, then hethte— and i think if that's done, then hethte then— and i think if that's done, then people then will— and i think if that's done, then people then will accept that's the htsttttn.— people then will accept that's the position. know, you the position. you know, you wtn-t— the position. you know, you wtn-t he— the position. you know, you won't be able— the position. you know, you won't be able to- the position. you know, you won't be able to have these these— won't be able to have these these ae— won't be able to have these these ttt— won't be able to have these these are you and i are are tanhtar— these are you and i are are familiar with— these are you and i are are familiar with all- these are you and i are are familiar with all parliaments. htt— familiar with all parliaments. htt ttt— familiar with all parliaments. htt ttt tntt,— familiar with all parliaments. but you know, if— familiar with all parliaments. but you know, if in you know westminster— but you know, if in you know westminster if— but you know, if in you know westminster if everything sthahset— westminster if everything collapsed because somebody trtn-t— collapsed because somebody didn't something in energy didn't like something in energy hthst— didn't like something in energy htttst tr— didn't like something in energy htttst tr tn— didn't like something in energy policy or in dail— didn't like something in energy policy or in dail eireann, it sthahses— policy or in dail eireann, it collapses because someone ttesn-t— collapses because someone ttesn-t ttte— collapses because someone doesn't like something. and ttshert— doesn't like something. and ttshert-nean- doesn't like something. and fishery mean you can't fishery policy, i mean you can't you— fishery policy, i mean you can't ttt san-t— fishery policy, i mean you can't ttt san-t hate— fishery policy, i mean you can't you can't have that. you know, you— you can't have that. you know, ttt ttst— you can't have that. you know, ttt rust-hate— you can't have that. you know, you just-have that- you can't have that. you know, you just have that in you just can't have that in a tentsrast. — you just can't have that in a democracy. .just - you just can't have that in a democracy. just not democracy. it's just not htssthte— democracy. it's just not htssthte .— democracy. it's just not possible . well, final question possible. well, a final question i possible. well, a final question t was— possible. well, a final question t attnt— possible. well, a final question twas tttnt tt— possible. well, a final question i was going to put— possible. well, a final question i was going to put to you is stnehttt— i was going to put to you is somebody said— i was going to put to you is somebody said to me the other day— somebody said to me the other tat-tease— somebody said to me the other tat-tease tsn-t— day that peace isn't a destination- day that peace isn't a destination ,- day that peace isn't a destination , it's process. destination, it's a process. ant— destination, it's a process. hnt tt— destination, it's a process. hnt tt ttt— destination, it's a process. and do you think- destination, it's a process. and do you think that- destination, it's a process. and do you think that we have spent enough energy in making sure it is a process of sure that it it is a process of reconciliation and that we're moving in the right direction ? moving in the right direction? i think we need to do far more in reconciliation.— i think we need to do far more in reconciliation. i— i think we need to do far more in reconciliation. i really do. were— in reconciliation. i really do. here starttnt— in reconciliation. i really do. we're starting when albie hethttts— we're starting when albie reynolds and— we're starting when albie reynolds and john major were there.— reynolds and john major were there. tt— reynolds and john major were there. tt was— reynolds and john major were there. it was a— reynolds and john major were there. it was a forum for peace ant— there. it was a forum for peace and reconciliation.— there. it was a forum for peace and reconciliation. and i don't thtnt— and reconciliation. and i don't thtnt-ttne- think we have done that. reconciliation— reconciliation and i think nae,— reconciliation and i think nae, ttt— reconciliation and i think there, you know , the new there, you know, the new teneratttn— there, you know, the new generation, i— there, you know, the new generation, i feel , are perhaps generation, i feel, are perhaps

not generation, i feel, are perhaps ntt thet— generation, i feel, are perhaps ntt thet ttnt— generation, i feel, are perhaps not they don't know as much, if you— not they don't know as much, if ttt ttte— not they don't know as much, if ttt ttte .— not they don't know as much, if ttt ttte , as— not they don't know as much, if ttt ttte , as ttt— not they don't know as much, if you like , as you would like them you like, as you would like them to you like, as you would like them tt tntw— you like, as you would like them tt tntw ant— you like, as you would like them to know and understand. they're not to know and understand. they're ntt thet-re— to know and understand. they're ntt thet-re ntt— to know and understand. they're not they're not too— to know and understand. they're not they're not too tolerant etther. — not they're not too tolerant etther. ttt — not they're not too tolerant either. you know, like some some tethe— either. you know, like some some hethte, ttt— either. you know, like some some hethte, ttt tntt,— either. you know, like some some people, you know, they'll say to me now and show— people, you know, they'll say to me now and show the way forward is me now and show the way forward ts ttst— me now and show the way forward ts ttst the— me now and show the way forward is just the middle— me now and show the way forward is just the middle ground. and you— is just the middle ground. and ttt rntte— is just the middle ground. and you move on and,— is just the middle ground. and you move on and, you know, you try you move on and, you know, you trt tt— you move on and, you know, you trt tt ethtatn— you move on and, you know, you trt tt ethtatn tt— you move on and, you know, you try to explain to them, as i've ttne— try to explain to them, as i've ttne mant— try to explain to them, as i've done many times,— try to explain to them, as i've done many times, it's not so stnhte— done many times, it's not so stnhte .— done many times, it's not so stnhte . ttt— done many times, it's not so simple . you know, your simple. you know, your teneratttn— simple. you know, your generation might be able to just tn tt— generation might be able to just tn tt ttt— generation might be able to just move on if you haven't been attestet— move on if you haven't been attestet tr— move on if you haven't been affected or if— move on if you haven't been affected or if you've been stshttnet— affected or if you've been cushioned from from the problems . htt— cushioned from from the problems . htt tt— cushioned from from the problems . htt tt ttt— cushioned from from the problems .htt tt ttt tt— cushioned from from the problems . but if you if you— cushioned from from the problems . but if you if you haven't been trtn— . but if you if you haven't been trtn that— . but if you if you haven't been from that and— . but if you if you haven't been from that and if— . but if you if you haven't been from that and if you know i know i from that and if you know i know twas— from that and if you know i know twas sttst— from that and if you know i know i was struck when— from that and if you know i know i was struck when i— from that and if you know i know i was struck when i go to , you i was struck when i go to, you tntt,— i was struck when i go to, you tntw tast— i was struck when i go to, you know, east belfast— i was struck when i go to, you know, east belfast belfast, hettast. — know, east belfast belfast, hettast. t— know, east belfast belfast, belfast. i mean, you can walk ttwn— belfast. i mean, you can walk ttwn the— belfast. i mean, you can walk down the street— belfast. i mean, you can walk down the street and you get thtnttns— down the street and you get opinions that— down the street and you get opinions that are, you know, so these— opinions that are, you know, so ttterse ant,— opinions that are, you know, so ttterse ant, ttt— opinions that are, you know, so diverse and, you know , so and, diverse and, you know, so and, ttt— diverse and, you know, so and, ttt tntw— diverse and, you know, so and, ttt tntw .— diverse and, you know, so and, ttt tntw , ste— diverse and, you know, so and, you know , some people in east you know, some people in east hettast— you know, some people in east belfast think— you know, some people in east belfast think everyone in dublin are belfast think everyone in dublin ah— belfast think everyone in dublin ah tn— belfast think everyone in dublin ah tn the— belfast think everyone in dublin are all in the ira,— belfast think everyone in dublin are all in the ira, you know, ant— are all in the ira, you know, ant ttse— are all in the ira, you know, and vice versa. _ are all in the ira, you know, and vice versa. and so it's no attt— and vice versa. and so it's no tttt thtna— and vice versa. and so it's no tttt thtnt sattnt— and vice versa. and so it's no good thing saying that we that we've actually— good thing saying that we that we've actually got over these

thtnas— we've actually got over these thtnts ant— we've actually got over these things and that— we've actually got over these things and that comes from tttat-s— things and that comes from today's politicians and into the ttttre— today's politicians and into the ttttre .— today's politicians and into the ttttre . t— today's politicians and into the future . i think— today's politicians and into the future . i think they have to be future. i think they have to be taught— future. i think they have to be taught a— future. i think they have to be taught a messages of you know , taught a messages of you know, of reconciliation— taught a messages of you know, of reconciliation and peace and stntttense— of reconciliation and peace and stntttense. t— of reconciliation and peace and confidence. i often— of reconciliation and peace and confidence. i often find digging up confidence. i often find digging th thtnas— confidence. i often find digging th thtnts ttt— confidence. i often find digging up things, you know, yeah, if hethte— up things, you know, yeah, if hethte ttnt,— up things, you know, yeah, if people don't, you don't have to agree— people don't, you don't have to agree wtth— people don't, you don't have to agree with someone's politics to hate— agree with someone's politics to hate a— agree with someone's politics to have a conversation with them. ant— have a conversation with them. hnt t— have a conversation with them. hnt t thtnt— have a conversation with them. and i think we've— have a conversation with them. and i think we've lost- have a conversation with them. and i think we've lost the- have a conversation with them. and i think we've lost the art of that civic discourse . an and of that civic discourse. an and understanding . i think it's understanding. i think it's a bit understanding. i think it's a htt tt— understanding. i think it's a bit of education— understanding. i think it's a bit of education is- understanding. i think it's a bit of education is a- i 3: “g i think it's a bit of education is a of i :: “g i think it's a bit of education is a of how bad thtnas— bit of education is a of how bad thtnts wee— bit of education is a of how bad thtnts ts— bit of education is a of how bad things were is a— bit of education is a of how bad things were is a help when ttt-re— things were is a help when ttte trttht— things were is a help when ttte trttnt tt— things were is a help when you're trying to go forward hesse— you're trying to go forward because sometimes and i find thts— because sometimes and i find thts wtth— because sometimes and i find this with students, if i can say,— this with students, if i can sat, htt— this with students, if i can say, but sometimes it's stnhttstts— say, but sometimes it's simplistic solutions. and unfortunately— simplistic solutions. and unfortunately , fortunately, as unfortunately, fortunately, as you— unfortunately, fortunately, as ttt tntt,— unfortunately, fortunately, as you know, arlene, i know there's these— you know, arlene, i know there's these these— you know, arlene, i know there's these these aren't— you know, arlene, i know there's these these aren't simplistic ttnt— these these aren't simplistic issues. and that's that's a reatttt— issues. and that's that's a reatttt we— issues. and that's that's a reality we have- issues. and that's that's a reality we have to understand. hertte— reality we have to understand. bertie, thanks— reality we have to understand. bertie, thanks for— reality we have to understand. bertie, thanks for sharing with us bertie, thanks for sharing with ts tttat. — bertie, thanks for sharing with us today. thank— bertie, thanks for sharing with us today. “its“ bertie, thanks for sharing with us today. thank you. thank you very much, arlene. thank you . very much, arlene. thank you. that was arlene foster speaking to that was arlene foster speaking tt hertte— that was arlene foster speaking to bertie ahern,— that was arlene foster speaking to bertie ahern, the former

trtsh— to bertie ahern, the former trtsh htne— to bertie ahern, the former irish prime minister, or taoiseach?— irish prime minister, or taoiseach? well as i mentioned earthen— taoiseach? well as i mentioned eartter, we— taoiseach? well as i mentioned earlier, we have— taoiseach? well as i mentioned earlier, we have a— taoiseach? well as i mentioned earlier, we have a special etttttn— earlier, we have a special etttttn tt— earlier, we have a special edition of the— earlier, we have a special edition of the people's panel thts— edition of the people's panel thts week— edition of the people's panel this week coming live from hettast— this week coming live from hettast .— this week coming live from hettast , eh— this week coming live from belfast , gb news this week coming live from belfast, gb news dougie beattie is belfast, gb news dougie beattie ts there— belfast, gb news dougie beattie ts there ttr— belfast, gb news dougie beattie is there for us. _ belfast, gb news dougie beattie is there for us. dougie, what's heen— is there for us. dougie, what's heen the— is there for us. dougie, what's been the reaction— is there for us. dougie, what's been the reaction from your htnet— been the reaction from your hanet tt— been the reaction from your hanet tt that— been the reaction from your panel to that interview ? �*ft�*ticc panel to that interview? well, wetste— panel to that interview? well, welcome back— panel to that interview? well, welcome back to— panel to that interview? well, welcome back to belfast. and yes, joining me now again, my panel will go firstly to mike gaston , a broadcaster, gaston, a broadcaster, journalist and first boss of mine in the media. we were about in the 80s and 90s and unfortunately, old enough to remember that just very briefly, what would be the key words you would take out of arlene's interview? relation chip interview? their relation chip trust legacy are the three things that came out for me in that because the past is a place to learn from, not a place to live. and the past is a place htase— live. and the past is a place htase tt— live. and the past is a place htase tt htan— live. and the past is a place place to plan the— c and the past is a place place to plan the future and move forward— place to plan the future and move forward with it. ' “t: move forward with it. and that's what— move forward with it. and that's what t— move forward with it. and that's what i took out of that. tierna mckenna, a footballer,- mckenna, a footballer, a sportswoman _ mckenna, a footballer, a sportswoman mother, you weren't reaht. — sportswoman mother, you weren't reaht. ttt— sportswoman mother, you weren't really. you would— sportswoman mother, you weren't really. you would never remember the trtthtes— really. you would never remember the troubles of— really. you would never remember the troubles of northern tretant. — the troubles of northern tretant. t— the troubles of northern ireland. i mean, what would you ttstentnt— ireland. i mean, what would you ttstentnt tt— ireland. i mean, what would you listening to that— ireland. i mean, what would you listening to that if— ireland. i mean, what would you

listening to that if that was antther— listening to that if that was another country, would you another country, what would you be another country, what would you he-at— another country, what would you he-at-httnt,- another country, what would you be-at-point,lcan. be saying at this point, i can tntt— be saying at this point, i can tntt reatt— be saying at this point, i can only really judge— be saying at this point, i can only really judge it on the sttrtes— only really judge it on the stories that— only really judge it on the stories that i've been told from tanhtes. — stories that i've been told from tanhtes. st— stories that i've been told from families. so a— stories that i've been told from families. so a big— stories that i've been told from families. itg “g families. so a big thing similar to mike would be legacy and maybe the lack of legacy that has come about in the years since good friday agreement. since the good friday agreement. david, you're offshore david, you're a offshore enttneer— david, you're a offshore engineer-in. david, you're a offshorei engineer-in the david, you're a offshore- engineer-in the fuel engineer involved in the fuel tnttstrt— engineer involved in the fuel tnttstrt ant— engineer involved in the fuel industry and a— engineer involved in the fuel industry and a part time farmer ant— industry and a part time farmer antltathen— industry and a part time farmer andlfather. so— industry and a part time farmer andlfather. so you— industry and a part time farmer and father. so you have to and a father. so you have to therate— and a father. so you have to operate business— and a father. so you have to operate business at one side and htstness— operate business at one side and htstness at— operate business at one side and business at the— operate business at one side and business at the other. what did you— business at the other. what did ttt tate— business at the other. what did ttt tate ttt— business at the other. what did you take out of— business at the other. what did you take out of what were the key— you take out of what were the tet wtrts— you take out of what were the key words there?— you take out of what were the key words there? i mean, well, i thtnt— key words there? i mean, well, i thtnt tn— key words there? i mean, well, i thtnt tnleast— key words there? i mean, well, i think on .easy piece - key words there? i mean, well, i think on easy piece is a lot think on an easy piece is a lot hetter— think on an easy piece is a lot hetter than— think on an easy piece is a lot better than no— think on an easy piece is a lot better than no piece . but there better than no piece. but there sttt— better than no piece. but there stttt a— better than no piece. but there still a-strands- better than no piece. but there still a-strands if- better than no piece. but there still a strands if the still a lot of strands if the sttt— still a lot of strands if the sttt trttat— still a lot of strands if the good friday agreement that still neet— good friday agreement that still need _effectively, - need worked on effectively, that-s— need worked on effectively, that-s tert— need worked on effectively, that's very difficult with the state— that's very difficult with the state tt— that's very difficult with the state of stormont at the minute, but state of stormont at the minute, httltates— state of stormont at the minute, butltakes-and- state of stormont at the minute, but takes and good but it takes people and good hethte— but it takes people and good hethte-rttht- but it takes people and good people right place. people in the right place. there-s— people in the right place. there's always— people in the right place. there's always hope- people in the right place. there's always hope you say about the state of stormont at the moment. i mean do you the moment. i mean where do you see-a— the moment. i mean where do you see-a htstness— the moment. i mean where do you see-a business man?- the moment. i mean where do you see-a business man? take- see it as a business man? take ant— see it as a business man? take ant retttttts— see it as a business man? take ant retttttts-tr— see it as a business man? take any religious or unionist, any religious hat or unionist, natttnahst— any religious hat or unionist, nationalist hat— any religious hat or unionist, nationalist hat off you. where do nationalist hat off you. where tt-see— nationalist hat off you. where do-see stormont- nationalist hat off you. where do see stormont at the do you see stormont at the ntnente— do you see stormont at the moment? businessman? very moment? as a businessman? very tttttsttt— moment? as a businessman? very tttttsttt httse— moment? as a businessman? very difficult place to— moment? as a businessman? very difficult place to try— moment? as a businessman? very difficult place to try and get antthtnt— difficult place to try and get anything-northern. difficult place to try and get- anything-northern ireland anything done. northern ireland

is to and is very difficult to try and get anything done. import export tttathttt— anything done. import export tttatttttt tt— anything done. import export volatility of prices— anything done. import export volatility of prices ,- “g : import export volatility of prices , getting volatility of prices, getting our products— volatility of prices, getting our products shifted over to uk at the— our products shifted over to uk at the ntntte— our products shifted over to uk at the minute is— our products shifted over to uk at the minute is exceptional, tttttsttt— at the minute is exceptional, difficult and— at the minute is exceptional, difficult and only getting harter— difficult and only getting harter .— difficult and only getting harder . tuna— difficult and only getting harder. tuna as you said, you wttttn-t— harder. tuna as you said, you wouldn't have— harder. tuna as you said, you wouldn't have remembered the good— wouldn't have remembered the tttt good— wouldn't have remembered the tttt tttt trttat— wouldn't have remembered the good good friday agreement. hetht— good good friday agreement. tteaht. ttt— good good friday agreement. really. you were— good good friday agreement. really. you were a child at that state.— really. you were a child at that state. ttt— really. you were a child at that stage. you have— really. you were a child at that stage. you have a— really. you were a child at that stage. you have a child of your t— stage. you have a child of your own. i mean, what— stage. you have a child of your own. i mean, what do you to hope see-ttttre— own. i mean, what do you to hope see-ttttre tt— own. i mean, what do you to hope see future of northern see for the future of northern tretant— see for the future of northern ireland, especially as someone that-s—ntsh- ireland, especially as someonei that's—muchlsport that's involved so much in sport 7 t— that's involved so much in sport 7 t sane— that's involved so much in sport 7 t trtn— that's involved so much in sport ? i came from a— that's involved so much in sport ? i came from a very- that's involved so much in sport 7 f f ? i came from a very respectful family who taught me to be respectful of my family, friends, neighbours and i suppose i've been the i've seen the fruitness of the good friday agreement and that i've been able to excel and, and go and enjoy sport and socialise with people. no matter what their religion what beliefs religion or what their beliefs were and, and to respect that. so being a young mother so for me, being a young mother , i'm blessed to know that he will be able to do . and grew up will be able to do. and grew up more in the in the environment that i have been able to. and that's all thanks to the good

friday agreement. mike, you and i friday agreement. mike, you and t htth— friday agreement. mike, you and t htth were— friday agreement. mike, you and t htth tn— friday agreement. mike, you and i both were in the— friday agreement. mike, you and i both were in the heart- ” 33 3 mike, you and i both were in the heart of ” 3 3 mike, you and i both were in the heart of the trtthtet— i both were in the heart of the troubled scenes.— i both were in the heart of the troubled scenes. some things troubled scenes. somethings that— troubled scenes. somethings that we— troubled scenes. some things that we should— troubled scenes. some things that we should never have seen ant— that we should never have seen ant htthahtt— that we should never have seen and probably will— that we should never have seen and probably will never , ever and probably will never, ever ttrtet. — and probably will never, ever ttrtet. -ttr— and probably will never, ever forget. _for us,- and probably will never, ever forget. _for us, we- and probably will never, ever forget. for us, we are forget. and so for us, we are sattht— forget. and so for us, we are sattht ntsh— forget. and so for us, we are caught much more in the minutiae of caught much more in the minutiae tt-hast.— caught much more in the minutiae tt-hast. ant— caught much more in the minutiae of-past. and what— caught much more in the minutiae of past. and what went on of the past. and what went on there.— of the past. and what went on there. htt— of the past. and what went on there. htt tt— of the past. and what went on there. but do you— of the past. and what went on there. but do you think it helps us there. but do you think it helps ts the— there. but do you think it helps us see the future— there. but do you think it helps us see the future more clearly? i us see the future more clearly? t thtnt— us see the future more clearly? t thtnt tats— us see the future more clearly? i think days like— us see the future more clearly? i think days like today- us see the future more clearly? i think days like today help us to see the future more clearly because we reflect on the past, the things, as you say , that we the things, as you say, that we shouldn't have seen, the things that looking into the that we did see looking into the eyes of victims , eyes of the eyes of victims, eyes of the bereaved eyes of people in pain and learning from that and feeling that at the time we have to learn from that. and today helps us to do that because we think about issues like relationship and trust . we relationship and trust. we recognise that we need to build on that relation, on those relationships across all strands of our society and we need to learn to trust each other to and move forward because at the minute we're not really moving as far forward as i would like

to see us doing . well, the good to see us doing. well, the good tttat— to see us doing. well, the good friday agreement,— to see us doing. well, the good friday agreement, of— i9 3tit “3 well, the good friday agreement, of course, i9t 3tit “3 well, the good friday agreement, of course, is htth— friday agreement, of course, is htttt tn— friday agreement, of course, is built on consent— friday agreement, of course, is built on consent and respect. tnt— built on consent and respect. hnt tt— built on consent and respect. and of course,— built on consent and respect. and of course, it— built on consent and respect. and of course, it would never hate— and of course, it would never have come together unless that hat— have come together unless that hat heen— have come together unless that had been given.— have come together unless that had been given. do you think now that— had been given. do you think now that politicians— had been given. do you think now that politicians very— had been given. do you think now that politicians very much have got that politicians very much have ttt tt— that politicians very much have ttt tt thetr— that politicians very much have got to their ground where they are got to their ground where they ant— got to their ground where they are and their— got to their ground where they are and their standing their trttht— are and their standing their ground ant— are and their standing their ground and not— are and their standing their ground and not going forward? i thtnt— ground and not going forward? i thtnt ttr— ground and not going forward? i thtnt ttr ne— ground and not going forward? i think for me, it's— ground and not going forward? i think for me, it's an awful shane— think for me, it's an awful shame that— think for me, it's an awful shame that we— think for me, it's an awful shame that we conduct our hthttss— shame that we conduct our htttttss ant— shame that we conduct our politics and very much an adversarial— politics and very much an adversarial situation and very ntsh— adversarial situation and very rntsh a— adversarial situation and very rntsh a nner— adversarial situation and very much a winner takes all situation. _ much a winner takes all situation. �*ft�*ti ”ti much a winner takes all situation. wc ski a much a winner takes all situation. �*ft�*ti ”ti 9c: “g situation. we're still playing party politics in the playground where we should be playing politics for the people in stormont and getting things done and moving us forward and tierna you're going to have a child that's going to school very shortly. you're you're well, not tert— shortly. you're you're well, not tert shtrttt— shortly. you're you're well, not tert shtrttt tn— shortly. you're you're well, not very shortly in the— you're you're well, not very shortly in the next five tears— very shortly in the next five tea ant— very shortly in the next five tea hnt t— very shortly in the next five years. and i mean, once that happens— years. and i mean, once that happens tnse— years. and i mean, once that happens, once you become a parent,— happens, once you become a parent, ttt-re— happens, once you become a parent, you're outlook on life shantes— parent, you're outlook on life changes drastically. would changes drastically. what would you changes drastically. what would ttt-ttte— changes drastically. what would ttt-ttte tt— changes drastically. what would you-like to see?- changes drastically. what would you like to see? what's you really like to see? what's the— you really like to see? what's the nah— you really like to see? what's the main things— you really like to see? what's the main things that you would like the main things that you would ttte tt— the main things that you would ttte tt see— the main things that you would like to see going— the main things that you would like to see going ahead in sttrntnt— like to see going ahead in stormont moment like to see going ahead in

stormont-moment time stormont at this moment in time 7 stormont at this moment in time t t— stormont at this moment in time t t thtnt— stormont at this moment in time t t thtnt we— stormont at this moment in time ? i think we need— stormont at this moment in time ? i think we need infrared power that's working. that is going to make changes. we're seeing terrible no movement with regards to educational needs. we see funding cut and not only across schools, nhs, all the pubuc across schools, nhs, all the public sector requires funding from from stormont and no doubt within the five years now that until my son will go to school, if that doesn't come very quickly, we're going to see how much it has been, how much this has affected us and really in hindsight, then we'll look back and say, well, all we needed to do was have people talking and working together in order to bnng working together in order to bring about better results. and we would maybe . i enjoyed we would have maybe. i enjoyed my school school life . i reaped my school school life. i reaped the benefits of the good friday agreement and being able to come from lisburn and go to school in west belfast. i just hope that my son is able to go to school, enjoy it and socially and have nothing , will not be able to nothing, will not be able to look back and say, i wish i had

done this or i wish had it on done this or i wish we had it on this. you're probably one of the ntst—here- this. you're probably one of the most—here because. most fascinating here because you— most fascinating here because ttt-represent— most fascinating here because you represent that women's you also represent that women's tttthah— you also represent that women's football-from _ you also represent that women's football-from the- you also represent that women's football from the very football right from the very start. — football right from the very start. -were- football right from the very start. _were a- football right from the very start. were a real start. and you were a real cheerleader— start. and you were a real cheerleader and pushed it ttrwart— cheerleader and pushed it ttrwart .— cheerleader and pushed it forward , appeared in many times forward, appeared in many times to forward, appeared in many times tt hate— forward, appeared in many times tt hate that— forward, appeared in many times to have that done.— forward, appeared in many times to have that done. how do you thtnt— to have that done. how do you thtnt that— to have that done. how do you think that has— to have that done. how do you think that has changed over the tast— think that has changed over the tast tet— think that has changed over the last few years?— think that has changed over the last few years? never mind 25 tears— last few years? never mind 25 teas the— last few years? never mind 25 years. the women— last few years? never mind 25 years. the women have come to the— years. the women have come to the ttretrtnt. — years. the women have come to the forefront. women's sport has tettnttett— the forefront. women's sport has definitely benefited and as you say,— definitely benefited and as you sat, tn— definitely benefited and as you sat, tn the— definitely benefited and as you say, in the years— definitely benefited and as you say, in the years that i haven't heen— say, in the years that i haven't heen thtna— say, in the years that i haven't been playing, there's been such stsh— been playing, there's been such stsh hrttress— been playing, there's been such such progress in— been playing, there's been such such progress in the game. '“3 such progress in the game. and thts— such progress in the game. and ttrts san— such progress in the game. and ttrts 9°— such progress in the game. and ttrts 90 ttt— such progress in the game. and girls can go out and— such progress in the game. and girls can go out and participate in it as and when they wish. they have role models now and the funding is there to continue that growth . and it's very, very that growth. and it's very, very exciting for women's football across the board, not just with football, but with netball. hockey everyone's reaping the benefits of it. david you're very much you have sons and they are well probably will come very practical. people as most tarrners— practical. people as most farmers are. _ practical. people as most farmers are. and- .. people as most farmers are. and of course back in farmers are. and of course back tn the— farmers are. and of course back tn the tats— farmers are. and of course back in the days, even— farmers are. and of course back in the days, even before the ettt— in the days, even before the

sttt trttat— in the days, even before the good friday agreement, tony htatr— good friday agreement, tony htatr was— good friday agreement, tony blair was talking about education,— blair was talking about education, education, education mean we're now seeing that there is mean we're now seeing that there ts a— mean we're now seeing that there ts a htt— mean we're now seeing that there ts a htt htthten— mean we're now seeing that there is a big problem amongst young hates— is a big problem amongst young males throughout— is a big problem amongst young males throughout britain that that— males throughout britain that that ttnt— males throughout britain that that don't seem— males throughout britain that that don't seem to fit that ntttt— that don't seem to fit that mould where— that don't seem to fit that mould where do you think that thet— mould where do you think that thet wht— mould where do you think that thet wttt ttt— mould where do you think that they will fit or— mould where do you think that they will fit or how can we make thtse— they will fit or how can we make thtse tttnt— they will fit or how can we make thtse tttnt nen— they will fit or how can we make those young men fit inside htrthern— those young men fit inside northern ireland and have a tt— northern ireland and have a sense of belonging? �*ft�*ti cc sense of belonging? we'll just go sense of belonging? we'll just 9° hast— sense of belonging? we'll just 9° hast a— sense of belonging? we'll just go back a little bit. think go back a little bit. i think education in northern ireland has always been very segregated and we look at and i think we need to look at integrated education from a very young age. it stops the setretatttn— young age. it stops the segregation all- “g g it stops the segregation all the way through tntt— segregation all the way through until _ university. - segregation all the way through until university. and until you get to university. and it's until you get to university. and tt-s the— until you get to university. and tt-s the ttst— until you get to university. and it's the first time— until you get to university. and it's the first time a lot of hts— it's the first time a lot of ttts the — it's the first time a lot of kids, the first— it's the first time a lot of kids, the first time i started to kids, the first time i started tt ntt— kids, the first time i started tt ntx wtth— kids, the first time i started to mix with with— kids, the first time i started to mix with with different rehtttns— to mix with with different religions when i went to queen's hnttersttt. — religions when i went to queen's university. and— religions when i went to queen's university. and that's- religions when i went to queen's university. “3 ”tititccg university. and that's really too a lot of opinions are too late. a lot of opinions are formed at that time, especially growing troubles. formed at that time, especially grolling troubles. formed at that time, especially groi think troubles. formed at that time, especially groi think integrated troubles. formed at that time, especially groi think integrated education. so i think integrated education is fantastic way forward. that is a fantastic way forward. that would lot of would bring an awful lot of people together. really see that there aren't any differences. everybody struggles in the same socio economic issues and it would them come to a better

would let them come to a better solution as well as we move forward. but but as for my sons who knows what they're going to turn into? they'll decide for thensettes— turn into? they'll decide for themselves. they'll- “tit7 they'll decide for themselves. they'll certainly ntt— themselves. they'll certainly ntt htsn— themselves. they'll certainly not push them— themselves. they'll certainly not push them to go away and wtrt— not push them to go away and wtrt awat— not push them to go away and work away from _ not push them to go away and work away from home and also not htsn— work away from home and also not push them— work away from home and also not push them tntt— work away from home and also not push them into farming or whatever— push them into farming or whatever-to- push them into farming ori whatever-to do. push them into farming or. whatever-to do. i whatever they want to do. i wont— whatever they want to do. i wtttt shtrttt— whatever they want to do. i would support them - whatever they want to do. i would support them as best as possible the farming side of possible in the farming side of things. do you think it's gotten ntsh— things. do you think it's gotten rntsh hetter— things. do you think it's gotten much better in— things. do you think it's gotten much better in the— “39 do you think it's gotten much better in the last 25 years or much better in the last 25 years tr-tt— much better in the last 25 years tr-tt ttt— much better in the last 25 years or-it got worse?— much better in the last 25 years or-it got worse? it's- much better in the last 25 years or it got worse? it's become or has it got worse? it's become a ttt— or has it got worse? it's become a ttt ntre— or has it got worse? it's become a lot more mechanised, but but tarntnt— a lot more mechanised, but but tarntnt-ts— a lot more mechanised, but but tarntnt-ts-a- a lot more mechanised, but but farming-is-a tough. farming itself is still a tough tnttstrt— farming itself is still a tough tnttstrt . — farming itself is still a tough tnttstrt. ttt— farming itself is still a tough industry. you do- farming itself is still a tough industry. /tit 3tit farming itself is still a tough industry . /tit. 3tit farming itself is still a tough industry. you do an awful lot of hours and you're certainly not guaranteed a minimum wage of any type at all. like any self—employed person . yeah, that self—employed person. yeah, that is a story for the— self—employed person. yeah, that is a story for the future,- is a story for the future, eshestaht— is a story for the future, especially with food prices going— especially with food prices going up— especially with food prices tttnt th at— especially with food prices going up at the moment. mike hast— going up at the moment. mike hast tt— going up at the moment. mike hast tt ttt.— going up at the moment. mike back to you. and— going up at the moment. mike back to you. and i— going up at the moment. mike back to you. and i mean, i mean, reaht— back to you. and i mean, i mean, reaht what— back to you. and i mean, i mean, reattt. what has— back to you. and i mean, i mean, really, what has been the truest— really, what has been the biggest benefits of the good tttat— biggest benefits of the good friday agreement, do you think? if friday agreement, do you think? tt ttt— friday agreement, do you think? tt ttt hat— friday agreement, do you think? tt ttt hat tt— friday agreement, do you think? if you had to kneel 1 or 2 of then — if you had to kneel 1 or 2 of them down? _ if you had to kneel 1 or 2 of them down? i— if you had to kneel 1 or 2 of them down? i think that we are lucky to live in such a fabulous place where it's the scenery is fabulous . it's the countryside fabulous. it's the countryside is wonderful. the people are the

warmest people. you're likely to meet anywhere . a sense of meet anywhere. a sense of hospitality. the tourism offer is brilliant. these days, and i think what the good friday agreement has done for us is to make developing that and recognising that and using that. so much better. i mean, we're really lucky in northern ireland. we don't have a rush houn ireland. we don't have a rush hour, we have a rush ten minutes. we have uncrowded roads, uncrowded streets and a place that's just longing to welcome visitors and make it a great place for all of us. and that's for me, one of the benefits and blessings of the good friday agreement . well, good friday agreement. well, there you are, chris. it- c: ” 3 3 well, there you are, chris. it up at the— there you are, chris. it up at the tert— there you are, chris. it up at the tert ent.— there you are, chris. it up at the very end. make gaston just wanna— the very end. make gaston just wrapping northern ireland up heatttttht— wrapping northern ireland up beautifully. a— wrapping northern ireland up beautifully. a wonderful place to beautifully. a wonderful place tt ttte— beautifully. a wonderful place tt ttte .— beautifully. a wonderful place tt ttte . tnt— beautifully. a wonderful place to live . and if— beautifully. a wonderful place to live . and if only our to live. and if only our politicians— to live. and if only our politicians could get it tttether— politicians could get it together and really stand strong on together and really stand strong tn where— together and really stand strong tn where thet— together and really stand strong on where they are— together and really stand strong on where they are , and on where they are, and eshestattt— on where they are, and especially if- on where they are, and especially if people have politicians— especially if people have politicians in— especially if people have politicians in london can watch that— politicians in london can watch that ant— politicians in london can watch that and know,— politicians in london can watch that and know, look, we are reatt— that and know, look, we are reatt tt— that and know, look, we are reatt tt tt— that and know, look, we are ready to do business. we need thtnas— ready to do business. we need thtnts strtet—

ready to do business. we need things sorted out.— ready to do business. we need things sorted out. and at this rntrnent— things sorted out. and at this rntrnent tn— things sorted out. and at this moment in time,— things sorted out. and at this moment in time, i think politicians— moment in time, i think politicians maybe need a bit of a heth— politicians maybe need a bit of a new ant— politicians maybe need a bit of a heth ant a— politicians maybe need a bit of a help and a bit— politicians maybe need a bit of a help and a bit more support as to a help and a bit more support as tt ttw— a help and a bit more support as tt tttr wat— a help and a bit more support as tt tttr wat ttt— a help and a bit more support as tt tttr wat ttt . — a help and a bit more support as to your way out . �*ft�*ticc “ to your way out. well, thanks a lot, dougie. let's hope they're watching now. camilla will be back next weekend and so will the brilliant people's panel. as even the brilliant people's panel. as ever, if you want to apply, please go to ww.gb news .uk forward slash panel . we've got forward slash panel. we've got lots more to come on this show. matthew goodwin will be here talking about his new book. i'll be joined by the bishop of saint albans on easter sunday, alan smith. don't go anywhere. we're back in a tick.

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good morning and welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm not camilla. i'm christopher

hope. but i'm glad to say i'm now joined in the studio by academic and pollster professor matthew goodwin. matthew with matthew goodwin. matthew is with us his new book, us to talk about his new book, values virtue, which values voice and virtue, which was released last week to some, well, some reaction before we get to the reaction, matthew. what's the book about? well, the bookis what's the book about? well, the book is about the— what's the book about? well, the book is about the rise— what's the book about? well, the book is about the rise of- what's the book about? well, the book is about the rise of a- 7 well, the book is about the rise of a new ethe— book is about the rise of a new ettte tn— book is about the rise of a new elite in british— book is about the rise of a new elite in british politics, which is elite in british politics, which ts trattaht— elite in british politics, which is gradually losing touch with the sttntrt. — is gradually losing touch with the sttntrt. t— is gradually losing touch with the country. i point at a left teantnt— the country. i point at a left teantnt trtth— the country. i point at a left leaning group who tend to disproportionately dominate the meta— disproportionately dominate the netta the— disproportionately dominate the media, the cultural institutions, creative industries,- institutions, creative industries, also politics. it's ntt— industries, also politics. it's ntt ttst— industries, also politics. it's not just about— industries, also politics. it's not just about people on the hett— not just about people on the tett tr— not just about people on the tett tr tn— not just about people on the left or in the— not just about people on the left or in the labor party. this ethe— left or in the labor party. this new elite are— left or in the labor party. this new elite are visible new elite are also visible wtthtn— new elite are also visible wtthtn-the- new elite are also visible- within _the conservative within parts of the conservative hartt. — within parts of the conservative hartt. t— within parts of the conservative hartt. tthtnt— within parts of the conservative party. i think many people who are party. i think many people who watshtnt— party. i think many people who are watching-will- party. i think many people who are watching will be are watching this show will be herhahs— are watching this show will be herhahs atreatt— are watching this show will be perhaps already aware of this group— perhaps already aware of this trtth what— perhaps already aware of this trtth what thet— perhaps already aware of this group what they think. and i ttst— group what they think. and i rest htt— group what they think. and i rest htt tt— group what they think. and i rest htt tt ttt— group what they think. and i just put it out there. i said, thts— just put it out there. i said, thts trtth— just put it out there. i said, thts trtth ts— just put it out there. i said, this group is losing touch with the sttntrt. — this group is losing touch with the country. you— this group is losing touch with the country. /tit. �*" “3 : the country. you find the ideal, the country. you find the ideal, the the person the ideal, the person that you're describing, are you're describing, how old are they? where are they getting university? in university? how do they vote in the elections? how the referendums elections? how are yeah. so the are they who are. yeah. so the interesting are they white? are they yeah. the interesting they male. yeah. the interesting thtna— they male. yeah. the interesting thtnt-ahttt— they male. yeah. the interesting thing-about this-is,l

thing about about this group is, you thing about about this group is, ttt-thet— thing about about this group is, ttt-thet-went- thing about about this group is, you _they _went to. you know, they often went to tthrttte — you know, they often went to tthrttte tr— you know, they often went to oxbridge or russell group hnttersttt. — oxbridge or russell group. university. _ lean university. they tend to lean tert—ttte- very left on issues like immigration.- very left on issues like immigration. wanted immigration. they wanted to renatn-thet- immigration. they wanted to remain they really remain in the eu. they really hate— remain in the eu. they really hate hrettt— remain in the eu. they really hate brexit, but— remain in the eu. they really hate brexit, but they're very trtnt— hate brexit, but they're very hrttt tt— hate brexit, but they're very proud of their— hate brexit, but they're very proud of their liberal identity. thet-te— proud of their liberal identity. they've become _ proud of their liberal identity. they've become much more liberal _tertesate— over the last decade. they ahsttttett— over the last decade. they. absolutely-johnson absolutely hate boris johnson. t hey— absolutely hate boris johnson. thet-the— absolutely hate boris johnson. they _the cities. - absolutely hate boris johnson. they the cities. the they live in the cities. the hnttersttt— they live in the cities. the university towns, they university towns, and they tnsreastnttt— university towns, and they increasingly look down on other hethte— increasingly look down on other hethte tn— increasingly look down on other people in society— increasingly look down on other people in society and they tnsreastnttt— people in society and they increasingly identify themselves as the— increasingly identify themselves as the winners.— increasingly identify themselves as the winners. the morally rtthtetts— as the winners. the morally righteous, radically progressive . ttrt— righteous, radically progressive . tttt ttttrt— righteous, radically progressive , lviv luxury belief class, and thet— , lviv luxury belief class, and thet tente— , lviv luxury belief class, and they derive status— , lviv luxury belief class, and they derive status from tntt-estnt— they derive status from projecting their sense of moral righteousness. _ projecting their sense of moral righteousness. ' “3 projecting their sense of moral righteousness. “3 “ righteousness. and your point in the book, i think, is that they advocate for things that don't affect them. these are free hits. so maybe immigration won't affect their wages because they won't wage affected by more people coming to country. you know, the interesting- “3 you know, the interesting thing, chrts — know, the interesting thing, chrts ts— know, the interesting thing, chris, is the— know, the interesting thing, chris, is the new elite has spent— chris, is the new elite has spent zo— chris, is the new elite has spent 20 years- chris, is the new elite has spent 20 years advocating hthstes— spent 20 years advocating policies that— spent 20 years advocating- policies that _ status policies that bring them status ant— policies that bring them status ant arertt— policies that bring them status and aren't really— policies that bring them status and aren't really costly for then.— and aren't really costly for them,-which- and aren't really costly for them, which impose big costs them, but which impose big costs on other people. mass immigration- on other people. mass immigration be on other people. mass immigration-be high immigration would be one high globalisation— immigration would be one high globalisation would be another. tet-s— globalisation would be another. tet-s hthtw— globalisation would be another. let's hollow out— globalisation would be another. let's hollow out the economy . let's hollow out the economy. tet-s— let's hollow out the economy. tet-s ttrn— let's hollow out the economy. let's turn britain _

let's hollow out the economy. let's turn britain into an estntrnt— let's turn britain into an economy dependent let's turn britain into an- economy-dependent upon let's turn britain into an econo migration dependent upon let's turn britain into an economigration andendent upon let's turn britain into an economigration and consumption. mass migration and consumption. and mass migration and consumption. hnt tt— mass migration and consumption. hnt tt sttrse— mass migration and consumption. and of course, they're the winners there _ and of course, they're the winners there in the cities. thet-te— winners there in the cities. thet-te ttt— winners there in the cities. they've got the- winners there in the cities. they've got the money, they've got-big— they've got the money, they've ttt-ttt httstnt— they've got the money, they've got big housing increases in got the big housing increases in the httstnt— got the big housing increases in the housing prices— got the big housing increases in the housing prices and so on. so thet— the housing prices and so on. so thet ttnt— the housing prices and so on. so thet ttn-t neet— the housing prices and so on. so they don't need to— the housing prices and so on. so they don't need to worry about they don't need to worry about the ettests— they don't need to worry about the effects of— they don't need to worry about the effects of this. _ they don't need to worry about the effects of this. and we now thts— the effects of this. and we now thts wtth— the effects of this. and we now see this with sex— the effects of this. and we now see this with sex with gender, wtth — see this with sex with gender, wtth htsttrt— see this with sex with gender, with history. they they advocate avert— with history. they they advocate a tert netattte— with history. they they advocate a very negative view who a very negative view of who we arelhrtttsh— a very negative view of who we are-british history- a very negative view of who we are british history and are of british history and ttentttt—tti are of british history and- identity,_of voters identity, whereas lots of voters out identity, whereas lots of voters ttt-chrts— identity, whereas lots of voters out-chris, really- identity, whereas lots of voters out chris, really care out there, chris, really care ahttt— out there, chris, really care ahttt thetr— out there, chris, really care about their national identity. they— about their national identity. thet—theh- about their national identity. they their national they care about their national htsttrt— they care about their national htsttrt-the— they care about their national history.-the new- they care about their national history. the new elite history. and so the new elite tttat— history. and so the new elite now today. also _ history. and so the new elite now today also really now today is also really strthhtnt— now today is also really stripping away something that trtes— stripping away something that ttes-ttt— stripping away something that tttes-ttt tt- stripping away something that gives lot of status , a gives people a lot of status, a lot gives people a lot of status, a ttt tt— gives people a lot of status, a lot of recognition. _ gives people a lot of status, a lot of recognition. and that's why— lot of recognition. and that's wht|artte— lot of recognition. and that's wht|artte-trtth- lot of recognition. and that's why argue group is really why i argue this group is really now reflecting— why i argue this group is really now reflecting what another asates— now reflecting what another academic, rob _ now reflecting what another academic, rob henderson, has sahet— academic, rob henderson, has sattet the— academic, rob henderson, has called the luxury— academic, rob henderson, has called the luxury belief class. they— called the luxury belief class. they-a— called the luxury belief class. thet-a sense— called the luxury belief class. they - a sense of - they get a sense of righteousness and status by sttttnt— righteousness and status by sitting-twitter- righteousness and status by sitting twitter every day. sitting on twitter every day. thet-re— sitting on twitter every day. thet-re ntsh— sitting on twitter every day. they're much more likely use they're much more likely to use twttter— they're much more likely to use twttter ttt— they're much more likely to use twitter too _on _ they're much more likely to use twitter too on twitter. twitter too much on twitter. t hey— twitter too much on twitter. thet-ah— twitter too much on twitter. they-all their- twitter too much on twitter.| they-all their-on they spend all their time on twttter.— they spend all their time on twitter,-abusing- they spend all their time on twitter, abusing or twitter, either abusing or srtttststnt— twitter, either abusing or criticising people that don't share— criticising people that don't share thet— criticising people that don't share their beliefs or tntt-estnt— share their beliefs or projecting beliefs to projecting their beliefs to then— projecting their beliefs to tthers tt — projecting their beliefs to others to win. jtit 9”ti others to win. do are these people you wrote a piece in the in times which is the paper in the times which is the paper

of establishment. they of the establishment. they pubush of the establishment. they publish it. there was some reaction yeah i've had reaction to that. yeah i've had a on on social a strange week on on on social nette— a strange week on on on social netta. chrts— a strange week on on on social netta. chrts t— a strange week on on on social media. chris i found myself hetht— media. chris i found myself hetnt wttett— media. chris i found myself being widely criticised by nehes— being widely criticised byi members—elite being widely criticised by. members—elite . i members of the new elite. i t— members of the new elite. i t hat— members of the new elite. i mean, i had mehdi hassan private sshttt— mean, i had mehdi hassan private sshttt .— mean, i had mehdi hassan private school , oxford,— mean, i had mehdi hassan private school , oxford, |— mean, i had mehdi hassan private school , oxford, i had mean, i had mehdi hassan private school, oxford, i had james o-hrten— school, oxford, i had james o-hrten .— school, oxford, i had james o'brien , private— school, oxford, i had james o'brien , private school, lsc . o'brien, private school, lsc. hawt— o'brien, private school, lsc. david aaronovitch went to oxford . tthn— david aaronovitch went to oxford . tthn htrtas— david aaronovitch went to oxford , john portas went— david aaronovitch went to oxford , john portas went to oxford , , john portas went to oxford, ant— , john portas went to oxford, ant thet— , john portas went to oxford, ant thet strt— , john portas went to oxford, and they sort of— , john portas went to oxford, and they sort of lined up one by tt— and they sort of lined up one by tt tent— and they sort of lined up one by one to deny they— and they sort of lined up one by one to deny they were part of thts— one to deny they were part of thts new— one to deny they were part of this new elite— one to deny they were part of this new elite and to deny even ettsts. — this new elite and to deny even ettsts. htt— this new elite and to deny even exists. but, but— this new elite and to deny even exists. but, but what they exhthttet— exists. but, but what they exhibited and— exists. but, but what they exhibited and chris, this is tnhtrtant— exhibited and chris, this is tnhtrtant ts— exhibited and chris, this is important is another key feature of important is another key feature tt the— important is another key feature tt the new— important is another key feature of the new elite— important is another key feature of the new elite political intolerance. _ of the new elite political intolerance. all the evidence shtws— intolerance. all the evidence shtwsthat— intolerance. all the evidence shows that members of the new ettte — shows that members of the new ettte the— shows that members of the new elite are the most— shows that members of the new elite are the most likely to tntrtent— elite are the most likely to unfriend people who hold views. t hey— unfriend people who hold views. thet ttsatree— unfriend people who hold views. they disagree with, block them on they disagree with, block them tn ststat— they disagree with, block them on social media— they disagree with, block them on social media and twitter to teet— on social media and twitter to teet tert— on social media and twitter to feel very worried— on social media and twitter to feel very worried if their son or feel very worried if their son tr thetr— feel very worried if their son or their daughter marries stnehttt— or their daughter marries somebody across the political ttttte— somebody across the political ttttte. stt— somebody across the political divide. god forbid their child marries a brexiteer and god hath— marries a brexiteer and god forbid their— marries a brexiteer and god forbid their child marries a conservative— forbid their child marries a conservative of— forbid their child marries a conservative of and they are stnststenttt— conservative of and they are consistently not— conservative of and they are consistently not only the most tttett— consistently not only the most tttett tt— consistently not only the most tttett tt tntt— consistently not only the most likely to only associate, socialise _ likely to only associate, socialise and - likely to only associate, socialise and marry members of

ther— socialise and marry members of thetr tn— socialise and marry members of thetr trtth— socialise and marry members of their own group, but they are the—tnns- their own group, but they are the—chris, to- the most likely, chris, to ehress— the most likely, chris, to express political intolerance. so express political intolerance. st-thet— express political intolerance. st-thet sat— express political intolerance. so they say they're so while they say they're ttherah— so while they say they're liberal, they _ so while they say they're liberal, they say they're enlightened.— liberal, they say they're enlightened. often when it comes to enlightened. often when it comes tt hthttss— enlightened. often when it comes tt htttttss thet— enlightened. often when it comes to politics, they are— enlightened. often when it comes to politics, they are among the ntst— to politics, they are among the most illiberal. _ to politics, they are among the most illiberal. is— to politics, they are among the most illiberal. c most illiberal. is it possible we're overblown this, that in a sense, these are people who are we're overblown this, that in a sense oniese are people who are we're overblown this, that in a sense on twitter. people who are we're overblown this, that in a sense on twitter. they've who are we're overblown this, that in a sense on twitter. they've got are noisy on twitter. they've got opinions . noisy on twitter. they've got opinions. that's what is opinions. that's what twitter is for. the real elite are for. but the real elite are nowhere near twitter. these are very people who who are very rich people who who are very rich people who who are very well they get they get very well off. they get they get government contracts. they benefit from their benefit financially from their friends government. shouldn't friends in government. shouldn't we rather than we go after them rather than noisy people on twitter? there is an old elite. nobody's- wit“ 7 there is an old elite. nobody's ever sart— is an old elite. nobody's ever sat there— is an old elite. nobody's ever said there isn't.— is an old elite. nobody's ever said there isn't. and i talk ahttt— said there isn't. and i talk ahttt thts— said there isn't. and i talk about this in— said there isn't. and i talk about this in the book. i say there— about this in the book. i say there ts— about this in the book. i say there ts a— about this in the book. i say there is a sort— about this in the book. i say there is a sort of— about this in the book. i say there is a sort of merchant ethe— there is a sort of merchant ehte. a— there is a sort of merchant elite, a conservative elite. you tn the— elite, a conservative elite. you can see in the donor class, in the— can see in the donor class, in the conservative _ can see in the donor class, in the conservative party in the sttt. — the conservative party in the sttt. ttt— the conservative party in the sttt. ttt san— the conservative party in the city. you can see— the conservative party in the city. you can see it. the htstness— city. you can see it. the business ceos.- city. you can see it. the business ceos. there is an old ethe— business ceos. there is an old ehte. chrts— business ceos. there is an old elite, chris, but— business ceos. there is an old elite, chris, but what i'm atttna— elite, chris, but what i'm artttnt tn— elite, chris, but what i'm arguing in this- elite, chris, but what i'm arguing in this that arguing in this book is that tttat—tsi today the axis of power is thtna— today the axis of power is thttnt. tt— today the axis of power is tilting. it tilting away from tilting. it is tilting away from that— tilting. it is tilting away from that ttt— tilting. it is tilting away from that old elite,— tilting. it is tilting away from that old elite, which, by the way,— that old elite, which, by the wat. tset— that old elite, which, by the way tset tt — that old elite, which, by the way, used to be— that old elite, which, by the way, used to be economically atrttt— way, used to be economically adrift-everybody- way, used to be economically adrift everybody , but adrift from everybody, but sttttraht— adrift from everybody, but culturally-to - adrift from everybody, but culturally to share the culturally tended to share the same as many voters. same values as many voters.

tttat-s— same values as many voters. tttat-s the— same values as many voters. tttat-s the new— same values as many voters. today's the new elite is different _ today's the new elite is different economic li politically, - different economic li politically, culturally , li they politically, culturally, li they are politically, culturally, li they trttht— politically, culturally, li they are drifting. is— politically, culturally, li they are drifting. is it— politically, culturally, li they are drifting. is it real power, thttth— are drifting. is it real power, thttth trtn — are drifting. is it real power, though, from other people? c though, from other people? is it reat— though, from other people? is it reat tower— though, from other people? is it reat rtwer tr— though, from other people? is it real power or just— though, from other people? is it real power or just influence? because there are they're different, aren't they? influences? is this dreadful term describe who are term to describe people who are busy social media? but power busy on social media? but power is completely is something completely different? well, only different? well, i'm not only tatttnt— different? well, i'm not only talking_media,l talking about social media, chrts. — talking about social media, chris. _about- talking about social media,- chris. _about people chris. i'm talking about people wht— chris. i'm talking about people who-passionately- who display passionately ttntnate— who display passionately l dominate—level dominate on a policy level netta— dominate on a policy level media,-service- dominate on a policy level media,-service ,- dominate on a policy level media, service , creative media, civil service, creative tnttstrtes— media, civil service, creative industries, cultural institutions , cultural power, institutions, cultural power, hthttsat— institutions, cultural power, political power,— institutions, cultural power, political power, not just economic power. and this is one of economic power. and this is one tt the— economic power. and this is one tt the tet— economic power. and this is one of the key arguments that i thtnt— of the key arguments that i thtnt hethte— of the key arguments that i think people have missed. hnthttt— think people have missed. anybody watching this show who went— anybody watching this show who went thrttth— anybody watching this show who went through the _ anybody watching this show who went through the last ten years, ntthe— went through the last ten years, nathe thet— went through the last ten years, maybe they conservative, maybe they voted conservative, mathe— maybe they voted conservative, nathe—hrettt. i maybe they voted for brexit, mathe— maybe they voted for brexit, nathe thet— maybe they voted for brexit, maybe they voted for brexit, maybe they voted for brexit, maybe they voted for boris tthnstn— maybe they voted for boris johnson, probably spent johnson, have probably spent ntsh— johnson, have probably spent ntshlthat— johnson, have probably spent much-that time- johnson, have probably spent much that time at much of that time looking at the the— much of that time looking at the the-.— much of that time looking at the hhc-. the— much of that time looking at the bbc , the newspapers, the bbc debates, the newspapers, the atterts— bbc debates, the newspapers, the adverts-television— bbc debates, the newspapers, the adverts-television ,_ bbc debates, the newspapers, the adverts television , the adverts on television, the thns — adverts on television, the thns the — adverts on television, the films, the books on the bestseller— films, the books on the bestseller list. et cetera. et setera— bestseller list. et cetera. et setera ttnt— bestseller list. et cetera. et cetera. and they've probably ttst— cetera. and they've probably ttst tett— cetera. and they've probably rtst tett nt— cetera. and they've probably just felt my values are not rettestet— just felt my values are not reflected in— just felt my values are not reflected in this national conversation— reflected in this national conversation station. and even t— conversation station. and even t san-t— conversation station. and even worse, i can't really what worse, i can't really say what i want— worse, i can't really say what i want tt— worse, i can't really say what i want tt sat— worse, i can't really say what i want to say within— worse, i can't really say what i want to say within this

conversation - want to say within this conversation because then i'm sahet— conversation because then i'm sahetlrastst.— conversation because then i'm called racist, gammon, an called a racist, a gammon, an ttntrant— called a racist, a gammon, an ttntrant htttt. — called a racist, a gammon, an ignorant bigot. et— called a racist, a gammon, an ignorant bigot. et cetera. et setera— ignorant bigot. et cetera. et setera ttnt— ignorant bigot. et cetera. et cetera. and i— ignorant bigot. et cetera. et cetera. and i think this is the tnns— cetera. and i think this is the issue, chris. we— cetera. and i think this is the issue, chris. we are talking ahttt— issue, chris. we are talking aboutlnational- issue, chris. we are talking about national conversation , about a national conversation, whtsh— about a national conversation, whtsh tter— about a national conversation, whtsh the— about a national conversation, which over the last 20, 30 years has— which over the last 20, 30 years has hete— which over the last 20, 30 years has become incredibly narrow so that— has become incredibly narrow so that t— has become incredibly narrow so that t tntt— has become incredibly narrow so that it only really— has become incredibly narrow so that it only really reflects the tatest— that it only really reflects the tatest ant— that it only really reflects the values and the— that it only really reflects the values and the voice of this new ehte. — values and the voice of this new ehte. tnt— values and the voice of this new elite. and what— values and the voice of this new elite. and what i'm— values and the voice of this new elite. and what i'm saying in thts— elite. and what i'm saying in thts htth.— elite. and what i'm saying in this book. right,— elite. and what i'm saying in this book. right, the reason why i'm this book. right, the reason why tn _th— this book. right, the reason why tn-ah netta- this book. right, the reason why i'm-all media, why. this book. right, the reason why i'm all media, why i i'm talking to all media, why i thtnt— i'm talking to all media, why i thtnt sh— i'm talking to all media, why i think gb news— i'm talking to all media, why i think gb news and all new, new netta— think gb news and all new, new netta new— think gb news and all new, new media, new media— think gb news and all new, new media, new media are important is media, new media are important ts hesse— media, new media are important ts hesse we— media, new media are important is because we need— media, new media are important is because we need to diversify the natttnat— is because we need to diversify the national conversation. we neet— the national conversation. we neet-hate— the national conversation. we neetlhate a— the national conversation. we need-have a how- the national conversation. we need have a how you do need to have a how do you do rat,— need to have a how do you do that, matthew?— need to have a how do you do that, matthew? well, number one, we neet— that, matthew? well, number one, we neet-sat— that, matthew? well, number one, we need.say.media,- that, matthew? well, number one, we need say media, it's we need to say to media, it's ntt— we need to say to media, it's nttlatntst— we need to say to media, it's not-almost every- we need to say to media, it's not almost every single not on almost every single stttnntst— not on almost every single columnist comes from the same hasttrttnt— background, the same schools, the—the- background, the same schools,| the—the the same universities, the same ant— the same universities, the same antsa-e— the same universities, the same antsa-e set- the same universities, the same antsa-e set tt- and holds the same set of tattes— and holds the same set of values. - need - and holds the same set of values.-need a- and holds the same set of values. need a much wider values. we need a much wider rante— values. we need a much wider range tt— values. we need a much wider range tt tttses— values. we need a much wider range of voices in— values. we need a much wider range of voices in our readers wtn-t— range of voices in our readers wtn-t ttterate— range of voices in our readers won't tolerate that, they? won't tolerate that, won't they? htnt— won't tolerate that, won't they? met they?— won't tolerate that, won't they? don't they? readers— won't tolerate that, won't they? don't they? readers of- won't tolerate that, won't they? don't they? readers of the- don't they? readers of the newspaper see what newspaper want to see what they're many they're reading. why are so many people leaving media? people leaving legacy media? chris? you know, the chris? why? you know, the hstener— listener figures on radio four tttat— listener figures on radio four tttat are— listener figures on radio four today are down— listener figures on radio four today are down massively. why is that?— today are down massively. why is that? the— today are down massively. why is that? the the— today are down massively. why is that? the bbc levels are down. tetets— that? the bbc levels are down. tetets tt— that? the bbc levels are down. levels of trust— that? the bbc levels are down. levels of trust in— that? the bbc levels are down. levels of trust in bbc are down. so levels of trust in bbc are down. st newshaher— levels of trust in bbc are down. so newspaper readership is down.

i so newspaper readership is down. tthtnt— so newspaper readership is down. i think actually— so newspaper readership is down. i think actually this is part of thts— i think actually this is part of thts htthten— i think actually this is part of this problem that people are ttthnt— this problem that people are ttthnt at— this problem that people are looking at politics, the natttnat— looking at politics, the national conversation , the national conversation, the truths— national conversation, the public square.— national conversation, the public square. and they're just sattnt— public square. and they're just saying pewte— public square. and they're just saying people like me aren't even in this— saying people like me aren't even in this national conversation. someone like conversation. when someone like you you're you though, you're you're a professor of politics at university kent , but you went university of kent, but you went to salford university, educated in as are you part in canada as well. are you part of the elite yourself or not? i mean, i'm certainly more part of the-ttts— mean, i'm certainly more part of the-ttts tt— mean, i'm certainly more part of the-lots of people. i. the elite than lots of people. i t— the elite than lots of people. i mean, i would— the elite than lots of people. i mean, i would also say i was the ttst— mean, i would also say i was the ttrst hestn— mean, i would also say i was the tttst hestn tn— mean, i would also say i was the first person in my— mean, i would also say i was the first person in my family to go to first person in my family to go tt tnttersttt— first person in my family to go to university and— first person in my family to go to university and i— first person in my family to go to university and i didn't go to the tthrttte— to university and i didn't go to the oxbridge or— to university and i didn't go to the oxbridge or russell group universities,— the oxbridge or russell group universities, but— the oxbridge or russell group universities, but i certainly httt— universities, but i certainly hold-hands— universities, but i certainly hold-hands-say universities, but i certainly- hold-hands-say i'm hold my hands up and say i'm ntreal— hold my hands up and say i'm nteal hart— hold my hands up and say i'm nteal hart tt— hold my hands up and say i'm more-a part of an- hold my hands up and say i'm more a part of an elite than more of a part of an elite than ttts— more of a part of an elite than ttts-tetate. — more of a part of an elite than lots-people. but— more of a part of an elite than lots people. but think lots of people. but i think what-s— lots of people. but i think what's interesting, chris, is the— what's interesting, chris, is the new— what's interesting, chris, is the new elite— what's interesting, chris, is the new elite are very bad at httttnt—tt- holding the mirror up to themselves— holding the mirror up to themselves i'm holding the mirror up to- themselves-i'm saying, themselves and all i'm saying, thet— themselves and all i'm saying, thet-ht.— themselves and all i'm saying, thet-ht. thet— themselves and all i'm saying, they-it. they hate- themselves and all i'm saying, they it. they hate know they hate it. they hate know thet— they hate it. they hate know thet hate.— they hate it. they hate know they hate, absolutely hate it. tnt— they hate, absolutely hate it. and—hon- they hate, absolutely hate it. . ant—nth trata and now i'm persona non grata hesse— and now i'm persona non grata tesatse-strt— and now i'm persona non grata tesatse-strt tt— and now i'm persona non grata because sort of the because i've sort of held the th— because i've sort of held the th. htt— because i've sort of held the mirror up. but-an- because i've sort of held the mirror up. but an important mirror up. but it's an important thtna— mirror up. but it's an important thtntltt— mirror up. but it's an important thing-do because— mirror up. but it's an important thing do because if you want thing to do because if you want to understand— thing to do because if you want to understand british to understand how british hthttss— to understand how british politics-the - to understand how british politics the rise to understand how british. politics-the rise of politics got here, the rise of hthtttsn.— politics got here, the rise of populism,-boris- politics got here, the rise of populism, boris johnson populism, brexit, boris johnson we—hth populism, brexit, boris johnson i we—htw thts we have to understand how this group— we have to understand how this arttt-wtth- we have to understand how this arttt-wtth the- group lost touch with the sttntrt. — group lost touch with the country. immigration country. mass immigration in

hyper— hyper globalisation, the hthtwtnt— hyper globalisation, the- hollowing - democracy. hollowing out of our democracy. hert— hollowing out of our democracy. tert-tethe— hollowing out of our democracy. very people wanted very few people wanted these thtnas— very few people wanted these thtnts—the- very few people wanted these. things—the-elite things to happen. the new elite did things to happen. the new elite ttt mant— things to happen. the new elite did many other— things to happen. the new elite did many other people didn't. there-s— did many other people didn't. there's clearly— did many other people didn't. there's clearly an— did many other people didn't. there's clearly an audience out there riding high there because it's riding high in times bestseller in the sunday times bestseller charts not this charts today. but not only this htth.— charts today. but not only this htth-htnt— charts today. but not only this book-right. the- charts today. but not only this book.-right. the last- book. chris right. the last ntnth— book. chris right. the last month think— book. chris right. the last month think hannah barnes and her—clinicl her book on the tavistock clinic sattnt — her book on the tavistock clinic sattnt—went- saying something went fundamentally what fundamentally wrong here in what tttnt— fundamentally wrong here in what tttnt tt— fundamentally wrong here in what we're doing to kids.— fundamentally wrong here in what we're doing to kids. nigel htttar-s— we're doing to kids. nigel htttar-s-tn- we're doing to kids. nigel biggar's on empire saying biggar's book on empire saying asttaht— actually british history isn't ttst— actually british history isn't inst-ant-anti actually british history isn't- just-and-and now just negative and toxic and now my just negative and toxic and now nt—the- just negative and toxic and now nt—the hewl my book calling out the new thte. — my book calling out the new the in— my book calling out the new elite. -i'm going- my book calling out the new elite. i'm going make one elite. now i'm going to make one stttestttn.— elite. now i'm going to make one suggestion. chris— elite. now i'm going to make one suggestion. chris the suggestion. chris maybe the hthttshtnt—ttti publishing industry has got this wrtnt — publishing industry has got this wrtnt _there— publishing industry has got this wrong.-there is- publishing industry has got this wrong. there is enormous wrong. maybe there is enormous ahhettte— wrong. maybe there is enormous ahhettte ttt— wrong. maybe there is enormous appetite out there— wrong. maybe there is enormous appetite out there people appetite out there for people wht— appetite out there for people who-something- appetite out there for people who something different. who offer something different. countercultural. _ who offer something different. countercultural. take mark francois his book francois sell published his book on he tell on brexit, which he will tell you was because couldn't get you was because you couldn't get a from the remainer a publisher from the remainer establishment. on that note, well, goodwin, establishment. on that note, well, you goodwin, establishment. on that note, well, you for goodwin, establishment. on that note, well, you forjoining goodwin, establishment. on that note, well, you forjoining thisdwin, thank you for joining us this week on on camilla tominey program. great to have you on. now he's a sunday today one of the important days in the the most important days in the christian to mark the christian calendar to mark the occasion, i'll be joined by alan smith, bishop of saint smith, the bishop of saint albans convenor of the lords albans and convenor of the lords spiritual. the spiritual. that means he's the spokesman peers in the spokesman for the peers in the bishops the house lords in bishops in the house of lords in just one moment. don't go

anywhere .

and welcome back to the camilla tominey show with me, christopher hope now i'll be speaking to alan smith, who's the saint albans, in the bishop of saint albans, in just moment. first, just one moment. but first, olivia is in the gb news olivia utley is in the gb news hot seat at 11 am, sitting in for michael portillo . olivia, for michael portillo. olivia, what's coming up ? hello? yes, what's coming up? hello? yes, we've what's coming up? hello? yes, ttt— what's coming up? hello? yes, ttt a— what's coming up? hello? yes, ttt a tert— what's coming up? hello? yes, we've got a very busy- ti.tit “3 i. it7 hello? yes, we've got a very busy show htannet— we've got a very busy show planned from _ we've got a very busy show planned from 11— we've got a very busy show planned from 11 till one. �*ft�*ti ii planned from 11 till one. we'll be planned from 11 till one. we'll he tatttnt— planned from 11 till one. we'll be talking about— planned from 11 till one. we'll be talking about keir starmer and his dirty tax tactics. is it leading up to the next election 7 leading up to the next election ? we'll be talking. is it time for australia to become a republic? there is some republican sentiment swelling up over there and we'll also be

having a great discussion about the new most depressing play to hit the west end. a little life with the online editor of the express art section. so please don't go away. lots to look forward to in the next show . so forward to in the next show. so was fantastic. olivia, and ttt-re— was fantastic. olivia, and you're filling— was fantastic. olivia, and you're filling in- was fantastic. olivia, and you're filling in for- i olivia, and you're filling in for michael htrttht— you're filling in for michael portillo this— you're filling in for michael portillo this week. so hope you hat— portillo this week. so hope you hat a— portillo this week. so hope you hat a attt— portillo this week. so hope you had a good time.— portillo this week. so hope you had a good time. now it's easter stnttt— had a good time. now it's easter stntat. tttat.— had a good time. now it's easter sunday. today, one— had a good time. now it's easter sunday. today, one of the most tnhtrtant— sunday. today, one of the most important christian days in the satentan— important christian days in the calendar,.well_ important christian days in the calendar, well playing calendar, as well as playing a the— calendar, as well as playing a rtteltatth— calendar, as well as playing a role-faith leaders.- calendar, as well as playing a role faith leaders. there are role as faith leaders. there are 26 role as faith leaders. there are zeltnttant-s— role as faith leaders. there are 26 england's most senior 26 of england's most senior hnthsan— 26 of england's most senior anglican bishops also play a the— anglican bishops also play a rtte tn— anglican bishops also play a role in making— anglican bishops also play a role in making laws in the house of role in making laws in the house tt-htt— role in making laws in the house of-but should— role in making laws in the house of but should religion of lords. but should religion ant— of lords. but should religion ant hthttss— of lords. but should religion and politics mix— of lords. but should religion and politics mix in this way? than— and politics mix in this way? than sntth— and politics mix in this way? alan smith is— and politics mix in this way? alan smith is a— and politics mix in this way? alan smith is a bishop of saint hthans— alan smith is a bishop of saint thhans. he-s— alan smith is a bishop of saint albans. he's also— alan smith is a bishop of saint albans. he's also the convenor of albans. he's also the convenor tt a— albans. he's also the convenor tt a ttrts— albans. he's also the convenor of a lords spiritual. that's how thet— of a lords spiritual. that's how they described— of a lords spiritual. that's how they described in— of a lords spiritual. that's how they described in the lords . they described in the lords. than— they described in the lords. than tttns— they described in the lords. alan joins us— they described in the lords. alan joins us now from saint hthans— alan joins us now from saint albans cathedral. alan, it's a htst— albans cathedral. alan, it's a test tat— albans cathedral. alan, it's a test tat ttr— albans cathedral. alan, it's a busy day for you. _ albans cathedral. alan, it's a busy day for you. thank you for shenttnt— busy day for you. thank you for shenttnt the— busy day for you. thank you for spending the time— busy day for you. thank you for spending the time and coming on to spending the time and coming on tt the— spending the time and coming on tt the th— spending the time and coming on tt the st hews— spending the time and coming on to the gb news well, spending the time and coming on to the gb news well , thanks very to the gb news well, thanks very ntsh— to the gb news well, thanks very much, christopher. _ to the gb news well, thanks very much, christopher. c t3”tit9tc much, christopher. it's great to be much, christopher. it's great to he here— much, christopher. it's great to be here on this most important day in the christian calendar.

now you're the convenor of the of now you're the convenor of the tt the — now you're the convenor of the tt the hat — now you're the convenor of the of the lord, the _ now you're the convenor of the of the lord, the bishops in the httse— of the lord, the bishops in the httse tt— of the lord, the bishops in the house of lords.— of the lord, the bishops in the house of lords. what does that asttaht— house of lords. what does that asttattt ean— house of lords. what does that actually mean ?_ house of lords. what does that actually mean ? well essentially, actually mean? well essentially, we ttnt— actually mean? well essentially, we ttn-t tate— actually mean? well essentially, we don't take a— actually mean? well essentially, we don't take a whip . �*ft�*ti ”ti we don't take a whip. we're all tttaht— we don't take a whip. we're all totally independent. so my job is to just try and make sure everybody knows what's happening and that we are briefed when we come in. and then as bishops, we engage fully in the house of the lords, whatever the business of the day is . so essentially, the day is. so essentially, ttt-re— the day is. so essentially, were the— the day is. so essentially, you're the kind— the day is. so essentially, you're the kind of- 39 so essentially, you're the kind of spokesman for the htshths— you're the kind of spokesman for the htshths tn— you're the kind of spokesman for the bishops in the— you're the kind of spokesman for the bishops in the house of ttrts. — the bishops in the house of ttrts. t— the bishops in the house of lords. i don't— the bishops in the house of lords. i don't know if you've teen— lords. i don't know if you've heen ahte— lords. i don't know if you've been able to— lords. i don't know if you've been able to read the papers thts— been able to read the papers thts ntrntnt— been able to read the papers this morning. i— been able to read the papers this morning. i know it's a tert.— this morning. i know it's a tert. tert— this morning. i know it's a tert. tert htst— this morning. i know it's a very, very busy day. easter ntrntnt. — very, very busy day. easter morning. there's report morning. there's been a report in morning. there's been a report tn-nah— morning. there's been a report tn-nah tn— morning. there's been a report in-mail on sunday- morning. there's been a report in mail on sunday talking in the mail on sunday talking ahttt— in the mail on sunday talking ahttt htw— in the mail on sunday talking about how there's some concern ahttt— about how there's some concern attnt—heaters- about how there's some concern about—leaders from| about whether the leaders from the htstn— about whether the leaders from the muslim, jewish and hindu tatths— the muslim, jewish and hindu tatths-reat— the muslim, jewish and hindu faiths read prayers at faiths should read prayers at the coronation.— faiths should read prayers at the coronation. and this is tetattnt— the coronation. and this is tetattnt the— the coronation. and this is delaying the order of service hetht— delaying the order of service hetnt htnet.— delaying the order of service being printed. is— delaying the order of service being printed. is that a concern you— being printed. is that a concern ttt htstet— being printed. is that a concern ttt htstet th— being printed. is that a concern ttt htstet th e— being printed. is that a concern you picked up ? i've certainly you picked up? i've certainly heart— you picked up? i've certainly heart ah— you picked up? i've certainly heard all sorts— you picked up? i've certainly heard all sorts of discussions, ant— heard all sorts of discussions, ant t— heard all sorts of discussions, ant t tntw— heard all sorts of discussions, and i know that— heard all sorts of discussions, and i know that the king is very

concerned that— and i know that the king is very concerned that the— and i know that the king is very concerned that the coronation wht— concerned that the coronation wttt retest— concerned that the coronation will reflect the _ concerned that the coronation will reflect the huge diversity of will reflect the huge diversity tt ttr— will reflect the huge diversity tt sttntrt— will reflect the huge diversity of our country today, though, of course , our culture— of our country today, though, of course , our culture is deeply course, our culture is deeply rtttet— course, our culture is deeply rtttet tn— course, our culture is deeply rooted in the— course, our culture is deeply rooted in the christian faith, whtsh— rooted in the christian faith, whtsh ts— rooted in the christian faith, which is what— rooted in the christian faith, which is what the coronation rttnt— which is what the coronation rttht ts.— which is what the coronation rttnt ts. ts— which is what the coronation right is, is actually based on. so right is, is actually based on. st t— right is, is actually based on. st t tntw— right is, is actually based on. st t tntw a— right is, is actually based on. so i know a lot— right is, is actually based on. so i know a lot of- right is, is actually based on. so i know a lot of work and a ttt— so i know a lot of work and a ttt tt— so i know a lot of work and a lot of consultation— so i know a lot of work and a lot of consultation has been going— lot of consultation has been tttnt tn— lot of consultation has been tttnt tn wtth— lot of consultation has been going on with all sorts of tttterent— going on with all sorts of different leaders , both secular different leaders, both secular ant— different leaders, both secular ant rehtttts— different leaders, both secular and religious .— different leaders, both secular and religious. _ different leaders, both secular and religious. different leaders, both secular and religious . c“ti”ti different leaders, both secular and religious. c“ti”ti different leaders, both secular and religious . c“ti”ti and religious. so there is a role, is there, for other faiths in what essentially is an anglican service ? well, i think anglican service? well, i think there— anglican service? well, i think there wht— anglican service? well, i think there will be— anglican service? well, i think there will be a— anglican service? well, i think there will be a huge- ' “3 ti.9“ ti.ti7’ well, i think there will be a huge wide representation— there will be a huge wide representation of people coming trtn— representation of people coming trtn ah— representation of people coming trtn ah strts— representation of people coming from all sorts of— representation of people coming from all sorts of backgrounds ant— from all sorts of backgrounds ant ah— from all sorts of backgrounds ant ah tarts— from all sorts of backgrounds and all parts of— from all sorts of backgrounds and all parts of society . and and all parts of society. and ntt— and all parts of society. and ntt tntt— and all parts of society. and not only that,— and all parts of society. and not only that, but of course trtn— not only that, but of course trtn the— not only that, but of course from the commonwealth and hettnt. — from the commonwealth and hettnt. st— from the commonwealth and hettnt. st tt— from the commonwealth and beyond. so it is— from the commonwealth and beyond. c t3tit “3 beyond. so it is going to be a microcosm of the communities both in this country and more widely around the . world how do widely around the. world how do bishops decide what— widely around the. world how do bishops decide what to- how do bishops decide what to speak out

the — bishops decide what to speak out the often— bishops decide what to speak out on? often there— bishops decide what to speak out on? often there are— bishops decide what to speak out on? cj�*lti“ ”ti ”ti bishops decide what to speak out on? “ on? often there are some some rouse when there's concern about the immigration policy of the current government, and that's expressed by the archbishop of canterbury. and just today, in the sunday telegraph, the archbishop york calls for archbishop of york calls for safe and legal routes for migrants the uk. do you migrants to enter the uk. do you worry that sometimes bishop ipsis and maybe the church gets into areas where it might just annoy members of the congregation if they feel they're political when they're being political when really bit of really they want a bit of spiritual guidance ? well, i spiritual guidance? well, i think all of us— spiritual guidance? well, i think all of us try- spiritual guidance? well, i think all of us try to- ” 3. 3i7 well, i think all of us try to avoid hetht— think all of us try to avoid hetnt hatt— think all of us try to avoid being party political because that— being party political because that ts— being party political because that ts the— being party political because that is the job— being party political because that is the job of the politicians. - that is the job of the politicians. and i don't feel a ttsatttn— politicians. and i don't feel a ttsatttn tt— politicians. and i don't feel a vocation to be— politicians. and i don't feel a vocation to be a— politicians. and i don't feel a vocation to be a politician. i hettete— vocation to be a politician. i believe god's— vocation to be a politician. i believe god's called me into ntntstrt— believe god's called me into ntntstrt ant— believe god's called me into ministry and clearly our main job ministry and clearly our main tth ts— ministry and clearly our main tth ts tt— ministry and clearly our main rth ts tt sheat— ministry and clearly our main job is to speak about the shtrtttat— job is to speak about the spiritual realm . ““3 job is to speak about the spiritual realm . ' “3 :: spiritual realm. and indeed today, this great celebration . today, this great celebration. i've just come out of a packed cathedral. i mean, i've just come out of a packed cathedral . i mean, one of the cathedral. i mean, one of the stte— cathedral. i mean, one of the stte shahets— cathedral. i mean, one of the stte shahets .— cathedral. i mean, one of the side chapels , and— i: i mean, one of the side chapels , and we've been side chapels, and we've been httstatntnt— side chapels, and we've been proclaiming the— side chapels, and we've been proclaiming the good news of the restnestttn— proclaiming the good news of the resurrection of _ proclaiming the good news of the resurrection of christ, and hats— resurrection of christ, and thats ttr— resurrection of christ, and that's our core— resurrection of christ, and that's our core business. but of the— that's our core business. but of course, the word— that's our core business. but of course, the word politics means city. it's how we organise our

lives and the moment you start thinking about how we organise ourselves , it's going touch ourselves, it's going to touch on political issues with a small p t on political issues with a small p , so i think that's unavoidable p, so i think that's unavoidable and our job is simply, i think and ourjob is simply, i think to try and engage in the process asindeed to try and engage in the process as indeed all citizens should . as indeed all citizens should. the same polling out this week, bishop from savanta saying that 39% of people don't care about the religious meaning behind easter. is that worrying for you as a shtrsh— easter. is that worrying for you as a church leader— easter. is that worrying for you as a church leader ?- is that worrying for you as a church leader ? we well, as a church leader? we well, i thtnt— as a church leader? we well, i thtnt tt— as a church leader? we well, i think of course— as a church leader? we well, i think of course ,_ as a church leader? we well, i think of course , i'm concerned think of course, i'm concerned ahttt— think of course, i'm concerned ahttt tt— think of course, i'm concerned about it because— think of course, i'm concerned about it because at the end of the— about it because at the end of the tat.— about it because at the end of the tat. nt— about it because at the end of the tat. rnt strt— about it because at the end of the day, my sort of deeply held stnttstttn— the day, my sort of deeply held conviction that's— the day, my sort of deeply held conviction that's driven me thrttth— conviction that's driven me thrttth nt— conviction that's driven me through my whole life has been that— through my whole life has been that the— through my whole life has been that the stre— through my whole life has been that the core of— through my whole life has been that the core of the christian tatth— that the core of the christian tatth ts— that the core of the christian tatth ts attt— that the core of the christian faith is good news for all hethte. — faith is good news for all hethte. st— faith is good news for all people. so i'm- faith is good news for all people. : faith is good news for all people. faith is good news for all- people. so i'm deeply sorry if some people have not understood or experienced it or entered into that , although we're very into that, although we're very clear we can't and wouldn't want

to try and force anybody to believe anything they don't. they don't believe. so we will continue to proclaim . yes, i'm continue to proclaim. yes, i'm sorry. there aren't more people , i have to say, across hertfordshire and bedfordshire, which i have responsibility for. we're expecting packed churches all over the place , but there's all over the place, but there's loads of people now who don't have that close connection . and have that close connection. and it's one of the things that has the churches and as christians were keen to to, change, i guess people might think that maybe the focus of the church should be on getting more people, more bums on seats in the pews than speaking out on the national stage. is speaking out on the national stage . is that that that the stage. is that that that the tensttn— stage. is that that that the tension that— stage. is that that that the tension that you- 3 is that that that the tension that you have to run ttw— tension that you have to run tttr ttte— tension that you have to run tttr ttte ht. — tension that you have to run your life by. yes.- tension that you have to run your life by. “41929 “ your life by. yes. i mean to be honest the main focus of my life day by day is about proclaiming the good news of jesus christ and engaging in this in the faith. that's absolutely what i spend.the faith. that's absolutely what i spend. the vast majority of my time doing. i actually spend a

relatively small amount of time in the house of lords and deaung in the house of lords and dealing with other issues, but of course the issues that are going on there are issues which affect people deeply and immigration would be a good example of that. and so there is a role, think, for us to a role, i think, for us to engage them . yeah, one of engage with them. yeah, one of the areas you've— engage with them. yeah, one of the areas you've led— 33 yeah, one of the areas you've led some some tert— the areas you've led some some tert tattahte— the areas you've led some some very valuable work— the areas you've led some some very valuable work on has been on very valuable work on has been tn tn attnt— very valuable work on has been on on going after— very valuable work on has been on on going after these fixed ttts— on on going after these fixed ttts hetttnt— on on going after these fixed odds betting terminals , the odds betting terminals, the tanhttnt. — odds betting terminals, the tanhttnt. t— odds betting terminals, the gambling. i mean, the churches hate— gambling. i mean, the churches hate heen— gambling. i mean, the churches have been speaking out on that. i have been speaking out on that. t san— have been speaking out on that. i can remember— have been speaking out on that. i can remember back to the days when— i can remember back to the days when the— i can remember back to the days when the gordon— i can remember back to the days when the gordon brown was htshtnt— when the gordon brown was htshtnt ttr— when the gordon brown was pushing for super casinos and the archbishop— pushing for super casinos and the archbishop a&e led led the rehehttn— the archbishop a&e led led the rehettttn tn— the archbishop a&e led led the rebellion on that. _ the archbishop a&e led led the rebellion on that. i mean, that-s— rebellion on that. i mean, has an— rebellion on that. i mean, that's an issue— rebellion on that. i mean, that's an issue you're concerned ahttt— that's an issue you're concerned ahttt. tsn-t— that's an issue you're concerned ahttt. tsn-t tte— that's an issue you're concerned about, isn't it? the— that's an issue you're concerned about, isn't it? the problem tanhttnte— about, isn't it? the problem gambling? well— about, isn't it? the problem gambling? well certainly i think what— gambling? well certainly i think what hahhenet— gambling? well certainly i think what happened with the deregulation— what happened with the deregulation of gambling in zoos.— deregulation of gambling in 2005, before— deregulation of gambling in 2005, before we had anything tnttne— 2005, before we had anything tnttne. we— 2005, before we had anything online, we didn't— 2005, before we had anything online, we didn't realise within atew— online, we didn't realise within atew tears— online, we didn't realise within a few years people would be sarrttnt— a few years people would be sarrttnt what— a few years people would be carrying what is— a few years people would be carrying what is effectively a casino around— carrying what is effectively a casino around in— carrying what is effectively a casino around in their pocket on her— casino around in their pocket on thetr ntthe— casino around in their pocket on their mobile phone . �*ft�* their mobile phone. with more than— their mobile phone. with more than too— their mobile phone. with more than 400 people taking their lives a year with gambling

related problems, 62,000 teenagers now in our country die posed with some sort of gambling addiction over a third of a million adults deeply affecting people. so our concern in campaigning on this issue is to try and get proper regulation. so we're not trying to stop people gambling, but we certainly want to make sure there are proper safeguards, especially for those who struggle with this. and it can be deeply destructive and is a huge problem for a significant minority of people . do you worry minority of people. do you worry that christians are marginalised in life, that people afraid they can't proclaim their faith wherever they work because they may be suspended? i mean, they may be suspended? i mean, they may be suspended? i mean, they nat he nttet— may be suspended? i mean, they may be moved out— may be suspended? i mean, they may be moved out of— may be suspended? i mean, they may be moved out of that- ::7 i mean, they may be moved out of that of that wtrthtase.— may be moved out of that of that wtrthtase. ht— may be moved out of that of that workplace. do you— may be moved out of that of that workplace. do you think the ststett— workplace. do you think the ststett ts— workplace. do you think the society is unfairly down on chrtsttans— society is unfairly down on christians ?_ society is unfairly down on christians ? well i think, of christians? well i think, of course, people— christians? well i think, of course, people what they're tanhtar— course, people what they're familiar with,— course, people what they're familiar with, they take for trantet. — familiar with, they take for trantet. t— familiar with, they take for granted. i have- familiar with, they take for granted. i have to say, i haven't got a lot of time for

people worrying about it. i think there's been a few high profile cases, as i have to say. my profile cases, as i have to say. my experience of going round all sorts of places of work and schools universities and schools and universities and indeedin schools and universities and indeed in the house of lords , indeed in the house of lords, that if engage with people , that if you engage with people, people are not only open but grateful for christians are grateful for what christians are doing. and of course we stand or fall on the service we're giving in our local communities and certainly here in hertfordshire and bedfordshire , it's very and bedfordshire, it's very often groups of christians who are right at the forefront of running food banks, credit unions and all sorts of support groups and counselling groups. so i, i don't think we have to worry too much about that. i think we've simply got to get on with the job of living out the faith day by day. well, bishop than— faith day by day. well, bishop than sntth— faith day by day. well, bishop alan smith from _ faith day by day. well, bishop alan smith from a— 39 39; well, bishop alan smith from a very 39; 39 well, bishop alan smith from a very busy ntrntnt— alan smith from a very busy ntrntnt at— alan smith from a very busy morning at saint albans abbey , morning at saint albans abbey, thanks— morning at saint albans abbey, thants ttr— morning at saint albans abbey, thanks for joining— morning at saint albans abbey, thanks for joining us this week on thanks for joining us this week tn cantha— thanks for joining us this week on camilla tominey show. and thank— on camilla tominey show. and thank ttt— on camilla tominey show. and thank ttt ttr— on camilla tominey show. and thank you for joining on camilla tominey show. and thank you forjoining me. i've thank you for joining me. i've ent-ttet— thank you for joining me. i've enrttet tttnt— thank you for joining me. i've enjoyed doing it.— thank you for joining me. i've enjoyed doing it. camilla is hast— enjoyed doing it. camilla is hast-week— enjoyed doing it. camilla is back-weekl9:30- enjoyed doing it. camilla is back week 9:30 am. enjoyed doing it. camilla is- back-weekl9:30 am. and back next week at 9:30 a.m. and up back next week at 9:30 am. and up next.— back next week at 9:30 am. and up next. tts— back next week at 9:30 am. and up next, it's olivia— back next week at 9:30 am. and up next, it's olivia utley, wht-s— up next, it's olivia utley, who's sitting _ up next, it's olivia utley, who's sitting michael who's sitting in for michael htrttht. — who's sitting in for michael portillo. thanks— who's sitting in for michael

portillo. thanks joining us portillo. thanks forjoining us ant— portillo. thanks forjoining us ant-a— portillo. thanks forjoining us ant-a treat— portillo. thanks forjoining us and a great easter. and have a great easter. and ttnt— and have a great easter. and ttnt-ttt— and have a great easter. and ttn-t-ttt-ettsl don't eat too many eggs. htnesttt— don't eat too many eggs. htnesttt .—

good morning and welcome to stnttt— good morning and welcome to shntat wtth— good morning and welcome to sunday with olivia utley . �*ft�* sunday with olivia utley. with two hours— sunday with olivia utley. with two httrs tt— sunday with olivia utley. with two hours of good— sunday with olivia utley. with two hours of good conversation, arts and entertainment coming up this easter sunday, president joe biden will visit northern ireland in two days time to mark the 25th anniversary of the belfast agreement. with power sharing still suspended, what is the future for the province and the future for the province and the new high commissioner of australia says inevitable that his country will ditch king