ignatian. what do you make of it? ignatian. what do you make of it.7 dominic raab in an exclusive interview with gb news olivia utley has suggested that there may have been activist elements within the civil service who target ministers. they may not agree with. what do you make of that? do you think the threshold for bullying is too low or are you with the civil servants? perhaps. let me know. we'll be debating that. we'll be speaking to than jacob to none other than jacob rees—mogg , conservative and rees—mogg, conservative mp and gb news presenter on that in

just one moment. then just stop oil will remember those two chaps who decided to scale a bndge chaps who decided to scale a bridge and cause mass disruption at dartford crossing. well, they've been given about three years each in prison. is that harsh enough or is it excessive in your view? let me know and the state pension, should we be more like the french? should we be rioting in the streets? we know that the state pension is going to go up to 68. it could going to go up to 68. it could 9° up going to go up to 68. it could go up to 780 within five years. or do you think should be out or do you think we should be out there rioting or do you think we need to take more personal responsibility our finances responsibility for our finances and retirement? lastly, and our retirement? and lastly, cyclist , should they be mandated cyclist, should they be mandated to have number plates? let me know . we've got all of that to know. we've got all of that to come tonight on dewbs& co with me, emily carver. but first, let's get the latest with let's get the latest news with arron armstrong . well, it's a arron armstrong. well, it's a minute past six. good evening to you from — minute past six. good evening to you from the— minute past six. good evening to you from the eu— minute past six. good evening to you from the gb news— good evening to you from the gb news newsroom. dominio— you from the gb news newsroom. oomuuo roub— you from the gb news newsroom. dominic raab says— you from the gb news newsroom. dominic raab says the inquiry moo— dominic raab says the inquiry into buying— dominic raab says the inquiry into bullying allegations against— into bullying allegations against him _ into bullying allegations against him was flawed and it

set against him was flawed and it out o— against him was flawed and it set a precedent— against him was flawed and it set a precedent that will have a ouuyuug— set a precedent that will have a paralysing effect— set a precedent that will have a paralysing effect on government. the former— paralysing effect on government. the former deputy— paralysing effect on government. the former deputy prime minister has spoken— the former deputy prime minister has spoken exclusively to gb nous— has spoken exclusively to gb news following _ has spoken exclusively to gb news following his resignation afou— news following his resignation ofoor ou— news following his resignation after an inquiry— news following his resignation after an inquiry found he'd odou— after an inquiry found he'd acted in— after an inquiry found he'd acted in on— after an inquiry found he'd acted in an intimidating and aggressive— acted in an intimidating and aggressive towards staff. aggressive way towards staff. rm — aggressive way towards staff. rm very— aggressive way towards staff. i'm very confident that i didn't oouovo— i'm very confident that i didn't behave in— i'm very confident that i didn't behave in o— i'm very confident that i didn't behave in a bullying way. most of those— behave in a bullying way. most of these allegations— behave in a bullying way. most of these allegations were dismissed out of hand, being able to pull very senior civil servants, not junior members of staff up and say, look, i don't have the basic information on to decide this . that was one of the decide this. that was one of the things on which i was found to have been bullying because it offended someone or because i said in relation to human rights reform, to get more foreign national offenders removed from this country, strengthen free this country, to strengthen free speech.i this country, to strengthen free speech. i said i thought the department were being obstructive. if these kind of things amount to bullying, then i think it puts a handbrake, a paralysing effect on ministers delivering for the british people. oliver dowden's replaced dominic raab as the new deputy prime minister. he says he's deeply—

prime minister. he says he's deeply honoured— prime minister. he says he's deeply honoured and- 37” so“. " he says he's deeply honoured and is looking forward— deeply honoured and is looking forward oo— deeply honoured and is looking forward to tackling issues that motor— forward to tackling issues that matter mou— forward to tackling issues that matter most to— forward to tackling issues that matter most to the people of fluo— matter most to the people of this country. — matter most to the people of this country. he— matter most to the people of this country. he will also remain-his— this country. he will also remain his role as the remain in his role as the chancellor— remain in his role as the chancellor of— remain in his role as the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster— chancellor of the duchy of lancaster there, - chancellor of the duchy of lancaster there, and alex chalk takeo— lancaster there, and alex chalk ookoo ovo— lancaster there, and alex chalk ookoo oo— lancaster there, and alex chalk takes over as the— lancaster there, and alex chalk takes over as the new justice secretory,— takes over as the new justice secretary, making him the 11th prou— secretary, making him the 11th person appointed in that role. smoo— person appointed in that role. since zero.— person appointed in that role. since 2010. the— person appointed in that role. since 2010. the mp for cheltenham _ since 2010. the mp for cheltenham has held positions as a cheltenham has held positions as o-mruroror— cheltenham has held positions as o-mruroror ,— cheltenham has held positions as o-mruroror , o— cheltenham has held positions as a minister , a barrister a defence minister, a barrister opu— a defence minister, a barrister and o— a defence minister, a barrister and o former— a defence minister, a barrister and a former solicitor general. rho— and a former solicitor general. rho rou— and a former solicitor general. the law society— and a former solicitor general. the law society ,_ and a former solicitor general. the law society , though, has the law society, though, has warned— the law society, though, has warned ro— the law society, though, has warned he inherits an even worse puorroo— warned he inherits an even worse puorroo opus— warned he inherits an even worse justice crisis than— warned he inherits an even worse justice crisis than any of his recour— justice crisis than any of his recent predecessors . labour's recent predecessors. labour's shadow— recent predecessors. labour's shadowy-uproo— recent predecessors. labour's shadow justice secretary, steve rood— shadow justice secretary, steve rood ,— shadow justice secretary, steve rood , poo— shadow justice secretary, steve reed , has attacked dominic reed, has attacked dominic poop-o— reed, has attacked dominic raab's record— reed, has attacked dominic raab's record in— reed, has attacked dominic raab's record in office, accusing— raab's record in office, accusing him - raab's record in office, accusing him of leaving the oumruor— accusing him of leaving the criminal justice _ accusing him of leaving the criminal justice system in rappers.— criminal justice system in tatters. with— criminal justice system in tatters. with sir keir starmer orrrroruug— tatters. with sir keir starmer criticising the _ tatters. with sir keir starmer criticising the prime minister whor— criticising the prime minister you re— criticising the prime minister over what he calls indecision opu— over what he calls indecision ouu uoouooor— over what he calls indecision and weakness in— over what he calls indecision and weakness in allowing mr raab to and weakness in allowing mr raab ro resign. — and weakness in allowing mr raab ro resign. you,— and weakness in allowing mr raab to resign. well, the— and weakness in allowing mr raab to resign. well, the big question— to resign. well, the big question for— to resign. well, the big question for the prime minister is why— question for the prime minister is why? — question for the prime minister rs upyr wry— question for the prime minister rs upyr wry po— question for the prime minister is why ? �*fr�*y is why? why he was so weak to appoint him in the first place. the second question for the prime minister is why didn't sack him and it's left to sack him and now it's left to dominic raab to resign and the prime minister hasn't acted . and prime minister hasn't acted. and it's indecision, it's that

it's that indecision, it's that weakness, i think that goes to the heart not just of this prime minister, but of 13 years now of failure . in other news this failure. in other news this evening— failure. in other news this evening ro— failure. in other news this evening to just— ”c: in other news this evening to just stop oil proroororo— evening to just stop oil protesters who scaled a bridge nonporo— protesters who scaled a bridge over dartford crossing last octopu— over dartford crossing last october have— over dartford crossing last october have been jailed. morgan rrourouu— october have been jailed. morgan rrourouu roo— october have been jailed. morgan trowland has been— october have been jailed. morgan trowland has been sentenced to uproo— trowland has been sentenced to pro yooro — trowland has been sentenced to three years, and— trowland has been sentenced to three years, and marcus dekker uro— three years, and marcus dekker ruo yooro— three years, and marcus dekker ruo yooro opu— three years, and marcus dekker two years and seven months for causing— two years and seven months for causing o— two years and seven months for causing a public— two years and seven months for causing a public nuisance. the porr— causing a public nuisance. the par orpuou— causing a public nuisance. the par orguou u— causing a public nuisance. the pair argued it was— causing a public nuisance. the pair argued it was a peaceful proroor. — pair argued it was a peaceful proroor. rho— pair argued it was a peaceful protest. the judge disagreed, ooyrug— protest. the judge disagreed, ooyrpp rpoy— protest. the judge disagreed, saying they deserved be saying they deserved to be puuropou— saying they deserved to be punished causing chaos and punished for causing chaos and also— punished for causing chaos and oroo ro— punished for causing chaos and oroo ro uoror— punished for causing chaos and also to deter others from copying _ also to deter others from copving them-- also to deter others from copying them. a just stop oil, trough,— copying them. a just stop oil, rpoupp, ooyo— copying them. a just stop oil, though, says they are the rougoor— though, says they are the longest sentences for peaceful oumoro — longest sentences for peaceful climate protest— longest sentences for peaceful climate protest in— longest sentences for peaceful climate protest in british uroroy— climate protest in british urorory .— climate protest in british history . braintree district history. braintree district coupon— history. braintree district council has— history. braintree district council has lost its high court bid council has lost its high court pro ro— council has lost its high court pro ro orop— council has lost its high court pro ro orop o— council has lost its high court bid to stop a former raf base in poor— bid to stop a former raf base in poor porpo— bid to stop a former raf base in essex being used— bid to stop a former raf base in essex being used to house asylum ooooror— essex being used to house asylum ooooror . rpo— essex being used to house asylum seekers . the government plans to seekers. the government plans to oooomooro— seekers. the government plans to oooomooro oo— seekers. the government plans to accommodate as many as 1700 mrorouro— accommodate as many as 1700 mrorouro or— accommodate as many as 1700 migrants at wethersfield arrrroro— migrants at wethersfield airfield for— migrants at wethersfield airfield for up to six months ooop— airfield for up to six months ooop. rpo— airfield for up to six months each. the judge— airfield for up to six months each. the judge said that he orou-r— each. the judge said that he orou-r payo— each. the judge said that he didn't have the— each. the judge said that he didn't have the legal power to group— didn't have the legal power to group opo— didn't have the legal power to grant the council's application for or— grant the council's application for an injunction— grant the council's application for an injunction ._ grant the council's application for an injunction . on the cbi's

for an injunction. on the cbi's rururo— for an injunction. on the cbi's rururo ro— for an injunction. on the cbi's rururo ro ru— for an injunction. on the cbi's future is in doubt— for an injunction. on the cbi's future is in doubt as a number of future is in doubt as a number or moro— future is in doubt as a number or mop-o rumo— future is in doubt as a number of major firms have quit rorrouruo— of major firms have quit following fresh allegations of ropo— following fresh allegations of ropo ooorpor— following fresh allegations of rape against the— following fresh allegations of rape against the business group . uorrroor— rape against the business group . oopuoor opo— rape against the business group . natwest and john lewis have roruoo— . natwest and john lewis have rorpoo oppor— . natwest and john lewis have joined other big— . natwest and john lewis have joined other big businesses, ruoruoruo— joined other big businesses, including bmw— joined other big businesses, including bmw and virgin media, 02 ,— including bmw and virgin media, oz , ru— including bmw and virgin media, 02 , in cancelling— including bmw and virgin media, 02 , in cancelling their o2, in cancelling their involvement- o2, in cancelling their involvement with the crisis hit group. — involvement with the crisis hit group. rpo— involvement with the crisis hit group. the guardian . the group. the guardian. the ouororou— group. the guardian. the guardian has— group. the guardian. the guardian has reported the orroooo— guardian has reported the alleged victim— guardian has reported the alleged victim claims she was ropoo— alleged victim claims she was ropoo py— alleged victim claims she was ropoo py roo— alleged victim claims she was raped by two male colleagues . raped by two male colleagues. rpo— raped by two male colleagues. rpo cpr— raped by two male colleagues. rpo cpr ooyo— raped by two male colleagues. the cbi says it— raped by two male colleagues. the cbi says it is— raped by two male colleagues. the cbi says it is working orooory— the cbi says it is working closely with— the cbi says it is working closely with the police to ensure any perpetrators are prouopr— ensure any perpetrators are prouopr ro— ensure any perpetrators are brought to justice. conservative mp brought to justice. conservative uprurrop— brought to justice. conservative mp julian knight— brought to justice. conservative mp julian knight says he doesn't worr— mp julian knight says he doesn't your rpo— mp julian knight says he doesn't your rpo rory— mp julian knight says he doesn't want the tory whip— mp julian knight says he doesn't want the tory whip reinstated opo— want the tory whip reinstated ouo po— want the tory whip reinstated ouo po uro— want the tory whip reinstated and he will not— want the tory whip reinstated and he will not stand again at the and he will not stand again at rpo porr— and he will not stand again at the next general— and he will not stand again at the next general election. it's oppor— the next general election. it's orror porroo— the next general election. it's after police dropped a sexual oooourr— after police dropped a sexual assault allegation made against pro.— assault allegation made against prm. rpo— assault allegation made against prm. rpo por— assault allegation made against him. the mp for— assault allegation made against him. the mp for solihull , who him. the mp for solihull, who was suspended— him. the mp for solihull, who was suspended from the party rpo— was suspended from the party over the claim,— was suspended from the party over the claim, has always oouroo— over the claim, has always oouroo rpo— over the claim, has always denied the allegation, describing— denied the allegation, describing it as false and morrorouo.— describing it as false and malicious. he's tweeted to say it's malicious. he's tweeted to say rr-o prouopr— malicious. he's tweeted to say it's brought untold damage to his it's brought untold damage to pro ppyoroor— it's brought untold damage to his physical and— it's brought untold damage to his physical and mental health and his physical and mental health ouo poo— his physical and mental health and has caused— his physical and mental health and has caused pain and distress to and has caused pain and distress ro pro— and has caused pain and distress ro pro romrry— and has caused pain and distress ro pro romrry .— and has caused pain and distress to his family . the— and has caused pain and distress to his family . the communication to his family. the communication wororor— to his family. the communication wororor uproo— to his family. the communication

workers union has— to his family. the communication workers union has reached an ooroomour— workers union has reached an agreement with— workers union has reached an agreement with royal mail on pay and conditions.— agreement with royal mail on pay and conditions. it— agreement with royal mail on pay and conditions. it includes as a rero— and conditions. it includes as a my pay— and conditions. it includes as a roro poy roo— and conditions. it includes as a 10% pay rise over— and conditions. it includes as a 10% pay rise over three years, a poor— 10% pay rise over three years, a prorrr oporruo— 10% pay rise over three years, a profit sharing agreement and no oompuroory— profit sharing agreement and no compulsory redundancies until at rooor— compulsory redundancies until at rooor apro— compulsory redundancies until at least april 20th,— compulsory redundancies until at least april 20th, 25. union opoo— least april 20th, 25. union members will— least april 20th, 25. union members will vote on the deal in compro— members will vote on the deal in oomruo wooro— members will vote on the deal in coming weeks with— members will vote on the deal in coming weeks with a recommendation for them to opprovo— recommendation for them to opproyo ro— recommendation for them to opproyo rr .— recommendation for them to approve it . kensington palace approve it. kensington palace poo— approve it. kensington palace has released— approve it. kensington palace has released a— approve it. kensington palace has released a new photo of the poro— has released a new photo of the roro ouoou— has released a new photo of the roro ouoou ro— has released a new photo of the late queen to mark what would povo — late queen to mark what would povo poop— late queen to mark what would have been her— late queen to mark what would have been her 97th birthday. it opowo— have been her 97th birthday. it opouo ouoou— have been her 97th birthday. it shows queen elizabeth with some of po— shows queen elizabeth with some of her grandchildren and great grandchildren— of her grandchildren and great grandchildren include king zara rruoorr-o— grandchildren include king zara tindall's kids— grandchildren include king zara tindall's kids on— grandchildren include king zara tindall's kids on the left. the pporoo— tindall's kids on the left. the pporoo ,— tindall's kids on the left. the pporoo , opoo,— tindall's kids on the left. the photos , show, was taken by the photos, show, was taken by the rrruoooo— photos, show, was taken by the rrruoooo or— photos, show, was taken by the princess of wales— photos, show, was taken by the princess of wales at balmoral poor— princess of wales at balmoral roor oururuor— princess of wales at balmoral last summer, just— princess of wales at balmoral last summer, just weeks before the last summer, just weeks before rpo poro— last summer, just weeks before the late queen's— last summer, just weeks before the late queen's death . tv the late queen's death. tv eurruo— the late queen's death. tv online diaz— the late queen's death. tv online diaz ayub and on tune in roooro— online diaz ayub and on tune in pop ooo.— online diaz ayub and on tune in radio two. this— online diaz ayub and on tune in radio two. this is— online diaz ayub and on tune in radio two. this is gb news. now poor— radio two. this is gb news. now poor ro— radio two. this is gb news. now poor ro .—

back to. emily iwelcome- back to. emily welcome to dewbs& co with me, back to. emily welcome to dejoining) with me, emily carver. now joining me until i my panel, until seven. i have my panel, charlotte pickles, who is the director the think director of the reform think tank and paul embery, who is an author, fireman and trade unionist. of course, now you can get in touch with us about all of the topics just outlined, of the topics i just outlined, particularly dominic raab particularly that dominic raab resigned on that forced resignation over bullying allegations. we'll be talking to jacob rees—mogg in just one moment, but please do keep your views coming at gb views at views coming in at gb views at gb news, .uk or on twitter at gb news. they're already coming in. i will get to them in just one moment. so the last few moment. so in the last few hours, dominic raab has spoken to news his resignation to gb news about his resignation from government claims to gb news about his resignation fro bullying>vernment claims to gb news about his resignation frobullying .ernment claims to gb news about his resignation frobullying . thenent claims to gb news about his resignation frobullying . the former claims to gb news about his resignation frobullying . the formerjusticefs of bullying. the former justice secretary warned against what he called sabina nessa called a tyranny of sabina nessa active feelings, getting in active hurt feelings, getting in the way of ministers driving change in government. gb news political reporter olivia utley began by asking him how he defines bullying . i don't think defines bullying. i don't think it is defines bullying. i don't think rr ro por— defines bullying. i don't think rr ro ror mo— defines bullying. i don't think it is for me to— defines bullying. i don't think it is for me to define- defines bullying. i don't think it is for me to define it,- 2p? g i don't think it is for me to define it, but

poor— it is for me to define it, but poor .— it is for me to define it, but poor, rm— it is for me to define it, but poor, r-m vory— it is for me to define it, but look , i'm very confident that look, i'm very confident that i orou-r— look, i'm very confident that i didn't behave— look, i'm very confident that i didn't behave in— look, i'm very confident that i didn't behave in a bullying way. moor— didn't behave in a bullying way. poor or— didn't behave in a bullying way. most of these— didn't behave in a bullying way. most of these allegations were oromroooo— most of these allegations were dismissed out— most of these allegations were dismissed out of— most of these allegations were dismissed out of hand , and i dismissed out of hand, and i oppor— dismissed out of hand, and i rprpr poopro— dismissed out of hand, and i think people are— dismissed out of hand, and i think people are watching this wouro— think people are watching this wouro po— think people are watching this would be surprised that in scrutinising_ would be surprised that in scrutinising civil servants in morruo— scrutinising civil servants in morruo ouo— scrutinising civil servants in making sure that millions of pouuoo— making sure that millions of pouuoo or— making sure that millions of pounds of taxpayers money is not oououooroo,— pounds of taxpayers money is not squandered, being— pounds of taxpayers money is not squandered, being able to pull vory— squandered, being able to pull vory oouror— squandered, being able to pull very senior civil— squandered, being able to pull very senior civil servants , not very senior civil servants, not ruuror— very senior civil servants, not junior members— very senior civil servants, not junior members of staff, up and soy,— junior members of staff, up and ooy, rook,— junior members of staff, up and ooy, rook, r— junior members of staff, up and say, look, i don't— junior members of staff, up and say, look, i don't have the poor— say, look, i don't have the basic information to decide rpo.— basic information to decide rpro. rpo— basic information to decide this. that was— basic information to decide this. that was one of the things on this. that was one of the things or wprop— this. that was one of the things or uprop r— this. that was one of the things on which i was— this. that was one of the things on which i was found to have poor— on which i was found to have poor purryrpg— on which i was found to have been bullying because i defended someone or because i said in rororrou— someone or because i said in rororrou ro— someone or because i said in relation to human rights reform, to relation to human rights reform, ro ooo— relation to human rights reform, ro ooo moro— relation to human rights reform, to get more foreign national orrouooro— to get more foreign national offenders removed from this oouurry— offenders removed from this oouurry ro— offenders removed from this country to strengthen free opooop, — country to strengthen free opooop, ., — country to strengthen free opooop, ., r— country to strengthen free speech, i, i said i thought the ooporrmour— speech, i, i said i thought the department were— speech, i, i said i thought the department were being obstructive. _ department were being obstructive. if these kind of rpruoo— obstructive. if these kind of things amount— obstructive. if these kind of things amount to bullying, then i things amount to bullying, then r rprur— things amount to bullying, then r rprur ro— things amount to bullying, then rrprur rr puro— things amount to bullying, then i think it puts a— things amount to bullying, then i think it puts a handbrake, a pororyorpo— i think it puts a handbrake, a paralysing effect— i think it puts a handbrake, a paralysing effect on ministers oorrvorruo— paralysing effect on ministers delivering for— paralysing effect on ministers delivering for the british poopro— delivering for the british poopro. apo— delivering for the british people. and that can't be right . po— people. and that can't be right . po you— people. and that can't be right . do you think— people. and that can't be right . do you think essentially that the allegations were purely political, or do you think

people genuinely felt threatened by you .7 it's difficult to say , by you? it's difficult to say, pur— by you? it's difficult to say, pur rpo— by you? it's difficult to say, pur rpo way— by you? it's difficult to say, pur rpo way my— 7 it's difficult to say, but the way my behaviour was characterised— but the way my behaviour was characterised is— but the way my behaviour was characterised is interested . characterised is interested. sooruo— characterised is interested. seeing aoom — characterised is interested. seeing adam casey, a very ooporrouooo— seeing adam casey, a very experienced barrister who oououoroo— experienced barrister who conducted this- experienced barrister who conducted this investigation, rouuo— conducted this investigation, rouuo ro— conducted this investigation, found i'd never— conducted this investigation, found i'd never lost my temper, never over four and— found i'd never lost my temper, never over four and a half yoo— never over four and a half years, shouted— never over four and a half years, shouted or swore at yoo— years, shouted or swore at yoo pur— years, shouted or swore at anyone. but that some people rouuo— anyone. but that some people rouuo my— anyone. but that some people found my direct— anyone. but that some people found my direct style of proppo— found my direct style of proprpo, or— found my direct style of probing, of interrogating , of probing, of interrogating, of ooruppry— probing, of interrogating, of scrutiny, unsettled or discomforting or even offensive . aro— discomforting or even offensive . ouo r— discomforting or even offensive . ouo r oppor— discomforting or even offensive . and i think there— discomforting or even offensive . and i think there is a certain ryrouuy— . and i think there is a certain ryroppy or— . and i think there is a certain tyranny of subjective hurt roorruoo— tyranny of subjective hurt feelings here,— tyranny of subjective hurt feelings here, which if you ooruorry— feelings here, which if you actually apply— feelings here, which if you actually apply that across the poro— actually apply that across the board, means— actually apply that across the board, means that senior mrurororo— board, means that senior ministers are— board, means that senior ministers are at risk as they try ministers are at risk as they rry ouo— ministers are at risk as they rry opo orrvo— ministers are at risk as they try and drive forward the change opoo— try and drive forward the change opoo rpo— try and drive forward the change that the british— try and drive forward the change that the british public expect . that the british public expect. try that the british public expect. rry ouo— that the british public expect. rry opo proroor— that the british public expect. try and protect taxpayers money, try try and protect taxpayers money, rry ouo— try and protect taxpayers money, rry opo oorrvor— try and protect taxpayers money, try and deliver for— try and protect taxpayers money, try and deliver for the british poopro— try and deliver for the british poopro opo— try and deliver for the british people who can— try and deliver for the british people who can actually hold rpruoo— people who can actually hold rprpoo poor— people who can actually hold rprpoo poor .— people who can actually hold things back . i— people who can actually hold things back . i think if you look things back. i think if you look at things back. i think if you look or opoo— things back. i think if you look at that across— things back. i think if you look at that across the _ things back. i think if you look at that across the board, and porrrourorry— at that across the board, and particularly if— at that across the board, and particularly if you compare it to particularly if you compare it o oppor— particularly if you compare it to other walks— particularly if you compare it to other walks of— particularly if you compare it to other walks of life, stressful— to other walks of life, stressful jobs, high powered businesses,— stressful jobs, high powered businesses, but— stressful jobs, high powered businesses, but other walks of pro — businesses, but other walks of pro -oouororry- businesses, but other walks of life generally, think life more generally, i think poopro— life more generally, i think poopro-prorryl people would be pretty

ourprrooo.— people would be pretty surprised. the risk, course, surprised. the risk, of course, is surprised. the risk, of course, ro opoo— surprised. the risk, of course, is that.leaves_ surprised. the risk, of course, is that leaves government is that it leaves government mrurororo— is that it leaves government ministers, politicians to look ouo— ministers, politicians to look ouo poor— ministers, politicians to look ouo roor ro— ministers, politicians to look and feel to the— ministers, politicians to look and feel to the public even more ooroopoo— and feel to the public even more detached from _ and feel to the public even more detached from reality . 39°c“ detached from reality. well, rporo— detached from reality. well, rporo uo— detached from reality. well, rporo we go.— detached from reality. well, there we go. that's a clip from our exclusive interview with dominic raab olivia utley there interviewing the man himself. so charlotte, what do you make of what dominic raab just said there? it's clear that he believes the threshold for bullying is just far too low and that in a way a little bit of a stitch up, one could say almost erg. i think there is a real question mark here as to whether the threshold is set appropriately. now . now, appropriately. now. now, opvrouory,— appropriately. now. now, obviously, the _ 2 now. now, obviously, the inquiry that's poor— obviously, the inquiry that's poop oouo— obviously, the inquiry that's been done was— obviously, the inquiry that's been done was based on the rprooporo— been done was based on the rprooporo .— been done was based on the threshold , the— been done was based on the threshold , the description in threshold, the description in the ministerial— threshold, the description in the ministerial code. so the proproru — the ministerial code. so the proproru proo— the ministerial code. so the problem lies with the ministerial- problem lies with the ministerial code . but in my view ministerial code. but in my view , i ministerial code. but in my view , r ooo-r— ministerial code. but in my view , r oou-r rprur— ministerial code. but in my view , | don't think that— ministerial code. but in my view , i don't think that saying someone's work lacks the basics. rou— someone's work lacks the basics. you know, — someone's work lacks the basics. you know, perhaps— someone's work lacks the basics. you know, perhaps being a bit overenthusiastic_ you know, perhaps being a bit overenthusiastic stick in your poro— overenthusiastic stick in your hand movements , you know, hand movements, you know,

orrrrororuo— hand movements, you know, criticising work. _ hand movements, you know, criticising work. i don't think opoo— criticising work. i don't think opoo oooo— criticising work. i don't think that does constitute bullying. i that does constitute bullying. r moon— that does constitute bullying. r r— that does constitute bullying. r r poo— that does constitute bullying. i mean, i had teachers- that does constitute bullying. i mean, i had teachers who did worse than that. well, you know, it's interesting.— worse than that. well, you know, it's interesting. there's- s?" well, you know, it's interesting. there's one of pro— it's interesting. there's one of pro woroo— it's interesting. there's one of pro uoroo ru— it's interesting. there's one of the words in in— it's interesting. there's one of the words in in the report that poo— the words in in the report that we've had today— the words in in the report that we've had today says that he uooo— we've had today says that he uooo rpo— we've had today says that he used the word— we've had today says that he used the word woeful about some work— used the word woeful about some work .— used the word woeful about some work . apo— used the word woeful about some work . ouo r— used the word woeful about some work . and i remember having work. and i remember having a uurvororry— work. and i remember having a university tutor— work. and i remember having a university tutor who told me in my pror— university tutor who told me in my rrror poooo— university tutor who told me in my first based on— university tutor who told me in my first based on my first oooy— my first based on my first ooooy ooop— my first based on my first ooooy ooop .— my first based on my first essay, gosh , that really is essay, gosh, that really is pompo— essay, gosh, that really is terrible, isn't— essay, gosh, that really is terrible, isn't it? and i didn't poor— terrible, isn't it? and i didn't roor po— terrible, isn't it? and i didn't roor po woo— terrible, isn't it? and i didn't feel he was bullying me. i mean, you know,— feel he was bullying me. i mean, you know, you— feel he was bullying me. i mean, you know, you ruor— feel he was bullying me. i mean, you know, you just you i think the you know, you just you i think rpo rooo— you know, you just you i think rpo rooo for— you know, you just you i think the idea for me,— you know, you just you i think the idea for me, bullying is oomorprmo— the idea for me, bullying is something which is deliberate. it's something— something which is deliberate. it's something which is intentionally- it's something which is intentionally aimed at making someone feel— intentionally aimed at making someone feel inadequate. you know— someone feel inadequate. you know .— someone feel inadequate. you rmow , making— someone feel inadequate. you know , making someone someone know, making someone someone rrmo— know, making someone someone rrmo or— know, making someone someone rrmo or poor— know, making someone someone kind of feel really— know, making someone someone kind of feel really deeply uncomfortable and attacked. and i uncomfortable and attacked. and rrprmr— uncomfortable and attacked. and i think there's— uncomfortable and attacked. and i think there's a— uncomfortable and attacked. and i think there's a big distinction- i think there's a big distinction between a pattern of popovrour— distinction between a pattern of behaviour with— distinction between a pattern of behaviour with intent it and someone who— behaviour with intent it and someone who is, as he has oooorrpoo,— someone who is, as he has described, very— someone who is, as he has described, very direct and very oroorpo— described, very direct and very oroorpo r— described, very direct and very abrasive. i think— described, very direct and very abrasive. i think the one caveat i abrasive. i think the one caveat r wouro— abrasive. i think the one caveat r wouro groo— abrasive. i think the one caveat rwouro orvo ro— abrasive. i think the one caveat i would give is that i want to payo— i would give is that i want to have ministers— i would give is that i want to have ministers who can get the poor— have ministers who can get the poor our— have ministers who can get the poor our or— have ministers who can get the best out of the— have ministers who can get the best out of the civil service. rou—

best out of the civil service. you know, — best out of the civil service. you know, r— best out of the civil service. you know, i have- best out of the civil service. you know, i have worked for a soororory— you know, i have worked for a soororory or— you know, i have worked for a secretary of state— you know, i have worked for a secretary of state i worked for as an adviser— secretary of state i worked for as an adviser when he was iain pumm— as an adviser when he was iain pumoom smrrp— as an adviser when he was iain duncan smith sorry, iain duncan smrrp— duncan smith sorry, iain duncan smrrp rxoorry. — duncan smith sorry, iain duncan smith exactly. when he was an oovroor— smith exactly. when he was an oovroor rm— smith exactly. when he was an adviser in the— smith exactly. when he was an adviser in the department for room— adviser in the department for room mo— adviser in the department for work and pensions and you know, we work and pensions and you know, uo poo— work and pensions and you know, we had meetings— work and pensions and you know, we had meetings where i would sit we had meetings where i would orrlrporo— we had meetings where i would orrlrporo ouo— we had meetings where i would sit there and think, this is sit in there and think, this is romoorro— sit in there and think, this is fantastic, this— sit in there and think, this is fantastic, this is— sit in there and think, this is fantastic, this is brilliant. i opoo— fantastic, this is brilliant. i opoo poo— fantastic, this is brilliant. i also had meetings where i momm— also had meetings where i thought, this— also had meetings where i thought, this is— also had meetings where i thought, this is terrible, and row— thought, this is terrible, and pow-oomp— thought, this is terrible, and how-earth are— thought, this is terrible, and how earth are you to how on earth are you going to oomo— how on earth are you going to send-secretary- how on earth are you going to send-secretary of- how on earth are you going to send secretary of state to send out a secretary of state to moro— send out a secretary of state to moroloooo— send out a secretary of state to makelcase.this_ send out a secretary of state to make case this policy with make a case for this policy with the make a case for this policy with rpo-ouorrry— make a case for this policy with the-qualitylwork?- make a case for this policy with the quality work? and the sort of quality of work? and so the sort of quality of work? and oo-you— the sort of quality of work? and oo-you know,- the sort of quality of work? and so -you know, you - the sort of quality of work? and so you know, you need so i think, you know, you need oooror— so i think, you know, you need several states— so i think, you know, you need several states to _ so i think, you know, you need several states to get best out of several states to get best out or poopro. — several states to get best out or poopro. rou— several states to get best out of people. you clearly don't wom— of people. you clearly don't womlpovo— of people. you clearly don't want-have a— of people. you clearly don't want have a consistent, want to have a consistent, oproorvo— want to have a consistent, abrasive behaviour. yeah, the rooo—rprmrl abrasive behaviour. yeah, thei idea _think is idea this is bullying i think is alof— idea this is bullying i think is olof o— idea this is bullying i think is a.of a stretch.— idea this is bullying i think is a of a stretch. paul well, a bit of a stretch. paul well, he a bit of a stretch. paul well, po porpo— a bit of a stretch. paul well, he talks about— a bit of a stretch. paul well, he talks about a— a bit of a stretch. paul well, he talks about a tyranny of ouproorrvo — he talks about a tyranny of subjective hurt— he talks about a tyranny of subjective hurt feelings. i rprmr— subjective hurt feelings. i rump—pro- subjective hurt feelings. ii think—his words subjective hurt feelings. i. think—his words . subjective hurt feelings. i- think—his words . do think those were his words. do you that is fair comment? you think that is fair comment? well well, look, i'm a trade unionist to my core. i've represented people- c." rift" (so; i've represented people in c." rzzr" trzitrtz; i've represented people in the worrprooo— represented people in the workplace who have suffered purryrmo— workplace who have suffered bullying mo— workplace who have suffered bullying and we— workplace who have suffered bullying and we should all stand ooormor— bullying and we should all stand ooormor rp— bullying and we should all stand ogormor r. r— bullying and we should all stand against it. i fear— bullying and we should all stand against it. i fear that actually the against it. i fear that actually rpo por— against it. i fear that actually rpo par for— against it. i fear that actually the bar for bullying in this aoom— the bar for bullying in this adam soledar_ the bar for bullying in this adam soledar report has been set

so adam soledar report has been set oo row— adam soledar report has been set oo row opoo— adam soledar report has been set so low that actually— adam soledar report has been set so low that actually anything ormoor— so low that actually anything almost could— so low that actually anything almost could constitute bullying-— almost could constitute bullying. you- almost could constitute bullying. you know, somebody ruor— bullying. you know, somebody ruor being— bullying. you know, somebody just being demanding, somebody just being demanding, somebody ruor porpo— just being demanding, somebody just being assertive in a mmooorror— just being assertive in a managerial role could constitute purryrmo— managerial role could constitute purryrmo .— managerial role could constitute bullying . r— managerial role could constitute bullying . i mean,— managerial role could constitute bullying . i mean, the definition bullying. i mean, the definition rmoruooo— bullying. i mean, the definition includes things— bullying. i mean, the definition includes things like being rmourrrmo— includes things like being rmourrrmo .— includes things like being insulting . well, let's be blunt. insulting. well, let's be blunt. wprop— insulting. well, let's be blunt. wprop or— insulting. well, let's be blunt. wprop or uo— insulting. well, let's be blunt. which of us could which of us oouro— which of us could which of us oouro ooy— which of us could which of us could say that— which of us could which of us could say that we've never rmourroo— could say that we've never insulted somebody , even mildly, insulted somebody, even mildly, insulted somebody, even mildly, rm rpo— insulted somebody, even mildly, in the workplace— insulted somebody, even mildly, in the workplace in our time? amo— in the workplace in our time? amo rpo— in the workplace in our time? and the problem— in the workplace in our time? and the problem is that by the oorrmrrrom— and the problem is that by the definition of— and the problem is that by the definition of bullying within rpro— definition of bullying within rpro ropom— definition of bullying within this report, that would make us all this report, that would make us or purrroo.— this report, that would make us all bullies. now,— this report, that would make us all bullies. now, i— this report, that would make us all bullies. now, i want cabinet mrmrororo. — all bullies. now, i want cabinet mrmrororo. r— all bullies. now, i want cabinet ministers. i want— all bullies. now, i want cabinet ministers. i want elected porrrroromo— ministers. i want elected politicians who are running big ooporrmomo— politicians who are running big departments and— politicians who are running big departments and running the ooumry— departments and running the ooumrry ro— departments and running the ooumry ro po— departments and running the country to be demanding. i want mom— country to be demanding. i want rpom ro— country to be demanding. i want rpom ro po— country to be demanding. i want them to be assert— country to be demanding. i want them to be assert kyiv. opvrouory,— them to be assert kyiv. obviously, if- them to be assert kyiv. obviously, if they're overstepping the line and they are overstepping the line and they purrymo— overstepping the line and they are bullying people , then they are bullying people, then they uooo— are bullying people, then they mooo ro— are bullying people, then they mooo ro po— are bullying people, then they need to be challenged. but i'm not sure, having— need to be challenged. but i'm not sure, having read most of pro— not sure, having read most of pro ropom— not sure, having read most of pro ropom rm— not sure, having read most of the report, i'm not sure what poppopoo— the report, i'm not sure what poppomoo rm— the report, i'm not sure what happened in this— the report, i'm not sure what happened in this particular case coupo— happened in this particular case could genuinely— happened in this particular case could genuinely constitute bullying-— could genuinely constitute purrymg. so— could genuinely constitute purrymg. so r— could genuinely constitute bullying. so i think there is a oomoor— bullying. so i think there is a oomoor ro— bullying. so i think there is a danger to and— bullying. so i think there is a danger to and i— bullying. so i think there is a danger to and i think rob has got danger to and i think rob has ooo o— danger to and i think rob has to o porpo— danger to and i think rob has to o pormr om— danger to and i think rob has

got a point on this, there is a oomoor— got a point on this, there is a omoor opoo— got a point on this, there is a danger that what— got a point on this, there is a danger that what we are seeing is danger that what we are seeing ro o— danger that what we are seeing ro o proo— danger that what we are seeing ro o rrmo or— danger that what we are seeing is a kind of emerging activist orvrr— is a kind of emerging activist orvrr oomroo— is a kind of emerging activist civil service ,_ is a kind of emerging activist civil service , and— is a kind of emerging activist civil service , and i think civil service, and i think opoo-o— civil service, and i think that's something that should uproo— that's something that should uprro poopro— that's something that should unite people across politics. wporpor— unite people across politics. whether you're _ unite people across politics. whether you're labour, whether youo— whether you're labour, whether you-ro-or— whether you're labour, whether you're or something else is you're tory or something else is opoo— you're tory or something else is opoo-rpo— you're tory or something else is opoo-rpo oom- you're tory or something else is that-the sort of- that that's not the sort of rprmo— that that's not the sort of rpmo you— that that's not the sort of thing you want- that that's not the sort of thing you want to see. you don't wom— thing you want to see. you don't your ro— thing you want to see. you don't your o oo— thing you want to see. you don't want to see the— thing you want to see. you don't want to see the tail— thing you want to see. you don't want to see the tail wagging the dog want to see the tail wagging the ooo—porrrroromo dog you want elected politicians to dog you want elected politicians ro po— dog you want elected politicians ro po rummrmo— dog you want elected politicians to be running the— dog you want elected politicians to be running the country and making— to be running the country and making decisions, civil making decisions, not civil oomompo— making decisions, not civil. oomompo—oor servants. well, i want to get our— servants. well, i want to get ouo-opoo,— servants. well, i want to get stuck that, definitely. stuck into that, definitely. pur— stuck into that, definitely. our-roo— stuck into that, definitely. but-tust-somei stuck into that, definitely. . but-just-some of but let's just go over some of the allegations because they do not from what i'm reading not sound from what i'm reading anyway. they do not sound like they reach a threshold of bullying to warrant a forced resignation. essentially a sacking. he would raise his voice. he could be rude and aggressive. he engaged in hard staring, looking at people with cold fury. he expected them to have the answers to all of his questions. he would use hand gestures to indicate a person should be quiet . charlotte should be quiet. charlotte perhaps he was a little bit, a little bit much on some occasions , a little bit rude, occasions, a little bit rude, a little bit angry, but in a position as a minister of state,

as a secretary of state, surely if your civil servants aren't producing work that is up to scratch , that isn't good enough. scratch, that isn't good enough. if it's incumbent on on him to lay down the law. yes and there are ways lay down the law. yes and there woyo or— lay down the law. yes and there are ways of doing— lay down the law. yes and there are ways of doing that. - 2 41:5 and there are ways of doing that. so i momrromoo— are ways of doing that. so i mentioned i— are ways of doing that. so i mentioned i was- are ways of doing that. so i mentioned i was in the poporrmom— mentioned i was in the department for work and pensions and department for work and pensions mo rm— department for work and pensions mo rm rpro— department for work and pensions and in this instance, not iain pumm— and in this instance, not iain duncan smith,— and in this instance, not iain duncan smith, but another mrmroror— duncan smith, but another minister we— duncan smith, but another minister we had there. i can remember doing— minister we had there. i can remember doing a meeting on ourro— remember doing a meeting on ourro o— remember doing a meeting on quite a controversial policy opoo— quite a controversial policy that-wanted _ quite a controversial policy that-wanted to - quite a controversial policy that wanted to do and that we wanted to do and propopry— that we wanted to do and propopry poo— that we wanted to do and probably had about 8 or 10 civil oomomo— probably had about 8 or 10 civil servants came— probably had about 8 or 10 civil servants came in— probably had about 8 or 10 civil servants came in and started talking-— servants came in and started talking. clearly— servants came in and started talking. clearly they didn't payo— talking. clearly they didn't povo rpo— talking. clearly they didn't have the information we needed. croo— have the information we needed. croor—roorryl clear they hadn't even really proo— clear they hadn't even really rrroo ro— clear they hadn't even really tried to answer— clear they hadn't even really tried to answer the questions ouo— tried to answer the questions mo rpo— tried to answer the questions and the minister— tried to answer the questions and the minister said, i'm omormo— and the minister said, i'm ending meeting. come back ending this meeting. come back wrou— ending this meeting. come back upon you— ending this meeting. come back wpop you payo— ending this meeting. come back when you have the— ending this meeting. come back when you have the information i uooo— when you have the information i mooo .— when you have the information i mooo . mor— when you have the information i need . that was— when you have the information i need . that was a— when you have the information i need . that was a perfectly need. that was a perfectly roorrrmoro— need. that was a perfectly legitimate thing to say. why go rprouop— legitimate thing to say. why go through wasting— legitimate thing to say. why go through wasting a minister's rrmo— through wasting a minister's rrmo ro— through wasting a minister's rrmo rr you— through wasting a minister's time if you haven't got the information— time if you haven't got the information that they need to moro— information that they need to moro o— information that they need to make a decision— information that they need to make a decision .7 i think that make a decision? i think that pro— make a decision? i think that pro rprmo— make a decision? i think that the thing-need- make a decision? i think that the thing need to be clear the thing we need to be clear opour— the thing we need to be clear opour ro— the thing we need to be clear opour ro ro— the thing we need to be clear about is if you're— the thing we need to be clear about is if you're consistently vory— about is if you're consistently yory oggrooorvo— about is if you're consistently yory oooroooryo .— about is if you're consistently very aggressive , i don't i'm not very aggressive, i don't i'm not ooyrmo— very aggressive, i don't i'm not ooymg rpro— very aggressive, i don't i'm not ooymg rpro ro— very aggressive, i don't i'm not saying this is bullying at all. i saying this is bullying at all. r rprmr— saying this is bullying at all. r rprmr uo— saying this is bullying at all. i think we have— saying this is bullying at all. i think we have to be clear that

opoo-o— i think we have to be clear that rporo-o you— i think we have to be clear that there's, you know,— i think we have to be clear that there's, you know, i— i think we have to be clear that there's, you know, i think we've porp— there's, you know, i think we've poop-rpm— there's, you know, i think we've both -think the- there's, you know, i think we've both think the threshold both said we think the threshold is both said we think the threshold ro roo— both said we think the threshold ro roo rou— both said we think the threshold ro poo poo ro— both said we think the threshold is too low to .to_ both said we think the threshold is too low to to make an is too low to say to make an ooouoorrom— is too low to say to make an accusation of— is too low to say to make an accusation of bullying here. but ooorm— accusation of bullying here. but ooorm .— accusation of bullying here. but again , you— accusation of bullying here. but again , you know,— accusation of bullying here. but again , you know, an atmosphere again, you know, an atmosphere wporo— again, you know, an atmosphere wporo poopro— again, you know, an atmosphere where people feel— again, you know, an atmosphere where people feel very uncomfortable or an atmosphere opoo— uncomfortable or an atmosphere wporo moro— uncomfortable or an atmosphere where there is— uncomfortable or an atmosphere where there is kind of an oproorvo— where there is kind of an abrasive character , you don't abrasive character, you don't get— abrasive character, you don't ooo rpo— abrasive character, you don't go rpo poor— abrasive character, you don't get the best from people if rpoy-ro— get the best from people if they're fearful. _ get the best from people if they're fearful. you don't get rpo— they're fearful. you don't get rpo poor— they're fearful. you don't get the best from _ they're fearful. you don't get the best from teams if actually rpoy-ro— the best from teams if actually rpoy-ro roorry— the best from teams if actually they're really nervous being in mono— they're really nervous being in mono or— they're really nervous being in mom or you. — they're really nervous being in front of you. i— they're really nervous being in front of you. trzr front of you. i completely agree. and no one wants a boss who makes them fearful of coming into work and that is too often the case. i'm sure all of us have experienced that. at one point our careers or another. point in our careers or another. but i the point about but i think the point about ideological differences is a very real one. if we look at who's been accused of bullying in the government in terms of conservative ministers, it has been priti patel, of course, who was trying to get through quite controversial policies that those working in the civil service may not have approved of. service may not have approved of paul service may not have approved of. paul and now dominic raab, we know he was he had well,

conservative views. suella braverman and knowing civil servants myself , they are not servants myself, they are not naturally small c conservatives, a lot of them . do you think a lot of them. do you think there's a case of, well, civil servants acting against the wishes of ministers , trying to wishes of ministers, trying to make it difficult for them? well, a former labour mp, chris murru— well, a former labour mp, chris rourrrm moro— well, a former labour mp, chris mullin, wrote a— well, a former labour mp, chris mullin, wrote a fantastic book oorroo— mullin, wrote a fantastic book oorroo a— mullin, wrote a fantastic book oorroo a vory— mullin, wrote a fantastic book called a very british coup in pro— called a very british coup in pro oorry— called a very british coup in the early 1980s,— called a very british coup in the early 1980s, and there was rpm— the early 1980s, and there was mm o— the early 1980s, and there was more than a kernel of truth, in my opmrom,— more than a kernel of truth, in my opmrop, rm— more than a kernel of truth, in my opinion, in terms of what he ooro. — my opinion, in terms of what he ooro. amo— my opinion, in terms of what he ooro. amo po— my opinion, in terms of what he said. and he talks— my opinion, in terms of what he said. and he talks about he moro— said. and he talks about he wrote about— said. and he talks about he wrote about how— said. and he talks about he wrote about how an establishment oomoprroo— wrote about how an establishment oomoprroo ro— wrote about how an establishment conspired to prevent a radical ropour— conspired to prevent a radical labour government led by a ooororror— labour government led by a socialist prime— labour government led by a socialist prime minister from rmpromomrrmo— socialist prime minister from implementing its radical momrrooro— implementing its radical manifesto .— implementing its radical manifesto . and you know, i think manifesto. and you know, i think opoo— manifesto. and you know, i think opoo ooruorry— manifesto. and you know, i think that actually whatever side of the that actually whatever side of pro porrrroor— that actually whatever side of the political divide you are, pro— the political divide you are, pro orvrr— the political divide you are, the civil service— the political divide you are, the civil service like things oomo— the civil service like things oomo o— the civil service like things done a certain— the civil service like things done a certain way and they poomo— done a certain way and they poomo ooo— done a certain way and they become set in— done a certain way and they become set in their ways. and if rpoy— become set in their ways. and if rpoy payo— become set in their ways. and if they have someone— become set in their ways. and if they have someone radical, oporpor— they have someone radical, whether it's— they have someone radical, whether it's from the left or uporpor— whether it's from the left or whether it's _ whether it's from the left or whether it's from the left or whether it's from the left or whether it's from the right, mom— whether it's from the right, rpom r— whether it's from the right, then i sense— whether it's from the right, then i sense often they then i sense that often they uro— then i sense that often they urrrlour— then i sense that often they wrrrlour or— then i sense that often they will-out of their- then i sense that often they will out of their to try will go out of their way to try to will go out of their way to try

ro rooror— will go out of their way to try to resist those _ will go out of their way to try to resist those ideas being implemented— to resist those ideas being implemented and to try to stop rpom. — implemented and to try to stop rpom. r— implemented and to try to stop rpom. r mom— implemented and to try to stop them. i mean, yes,— implemented and to try to stop them. i mean, yes, minister uooo-r— them. i mean, yes, minister woom-r o— them. i mean, yes, minister wasn't a complete parody. i mean, anyone in- wasn't a complete parody. i mean, anyone in politics will porr— mean, anyone in politics will poor-opoo- mean, anyone in politics will tell-there was- mean, anyone in politics will tell there was some tell you that there was some rrurp — tell you that there was some rrurp rm— tell you that there was some truth in that— tell you that there was some truth in that as— tell you that there was some truth in that as well. tony pomp,— truth in that as well. tony benn,-diaries- truth in that as well. tony benn, diaries famously benn, in his diaries famously moro— benn, in his diaries famously uooo-pow— benn, in his diaries famously. urooowoomor-p- wrote about how when he came upon— wrote about how when he came upon-woo— wrote about how when he came when was appointed secretary when he was appointed secretary of when he was appointed secretary or-rmouorry— when he was appointed secretary or-rmouorry rm- when he was appointed secretary of-industry in 1974,- of state for industry in 1974, on of state for industry in 1974, or pro— of state for industry in 1974, or pro poor— of state for industry in 1974, on the back of— of state for industry in 1974, on the back of a— of state for industry in 1974, on the back of a radical labour mompoopo— on the back of a radical labour manifesto, he— on the back of a radical labour manifesto, he was— on the back of a radical labour manifesto, he was blocked every orop— manifesto, he was blocked every orop or— manifesto, he was blocked every orop or pro— manifesto, he was blocked every orop or pro ooy— manifesto, he was blocked every orop or pro ooy py— manifesto, he was blocked every step of the way by the civil oomroo. — step of the way by the civil oomroo. r— step of the way by the civil service. i mean,— step of the way by the civil service. i mean, he and his pormomom— service. i mean, he and his permanent secretary, sir anthony rom— permanent secretary, sir anthony pom, uooo— permanent secretary, sir anthony pom, uooo ro— permanent secretary, sir anthony park, used to loggerheads park, used to be at loggerheads orp— park, used to be at loggerheads mop—opoo— park, used to be at loggerheads with—where he- park, used to be at loggerheads with where he tried with each other where he tried to with each other where he tried ro-rpo— with each other where he tried to .the - labour- to get the radical labour momrrooro— to get the radical labour manifesto through and sir armory— manifesto through and sir anthony park— manifesto through and sir anthony park and officials wrrprm— anthony park and officials within department blocked within the department blocked him within the department blocked prm—or— within the department blocked prm—or rpo- within the department blocked him _of the way. - within the department blocked him of the way. it's him every step of the way. it's roorry— him every step of the way. it's roorry oomp— him every step of the way. it's really worth reading the benn prorroo— really worth reading the benn prorroo ouo— really worth reading the benn diaries, and i— really worth reading the benn diaries, and i would say to our oorrooouoo— diaries, and i would say to our colleagues—beforel colleagues on the left, before you— colleagues on the left, before you-rpo— colleagues on the left, before you-the anti—war. you jump on the anti—war pomdrooou— you jump on the anti—war bandwagon,-at- you jump on the anti—war bandwagon, at the civil bandwagon, look at the civil oompo— bandwagon, look at the civil oomroo-rpo— bandwagon, look at the civil. service,-the-diaries service, read the benn diaries mo— service, read the benn diaries and-sometimes- service, read the benn diaries and sometimes you're service, read the benn diaries- and-sometimes-you're up and see sometimes what you're up ooormor.— and see sometimes what you're up ooormor.-oou— and see sometimes what you're up against.-saw that- and see sometimes what you're up against. saw that you against. i also saw that you suggestedr_ against. i also saw that you suggested, was suggested, you know, where was the suggested, you know, where was pro uroorp— suggested, you know, where was the uproar-certain- suggested, you know, where was the uproar certain labour the uproar from certain labour poro— the uproar from certain labour pro-oomo— the uproar from certain labour pro-oomo ro- the uproar from certain labour mps-came to john- mps when it came to john. bercow's-allegations bercow's bullying allegations uproo— bercow's bullying allegationsi wprop—uoroo bercow's bullying allegations- which_worse on which arguably were far worse on popom — which arguably were far worse on popom ithink— which arguably were far worse on paper? ithink there's- which arguably were far worse on paper? ithink there's no- paper? i think there's no question was question that that that was bullying. i mean , if you looked bullying. i mean, if you looked at what came out around that, i mean, it was horrendous. aukus i

don't think i personally wouldn't put raab and bercow in the same category. but, you know, absolutely right. i know, paul's absolutely right. i mean, tony blair talked about the my back from trying the scars on my back from trying to civil service. to overhaul the civil service. you know, there was a piece in in the news just this week or last week by alan milburn , last week by alan milburn, former labour health secretary, talking about how kind of obstructive at times the health department could be in trying to push through reforms, which i don't think you would argue were on the socialist left, but certainly of it. so i think this is you're right, is this is is you're right, this is this is such a common story throughout. i think, know, at times i think, you know, at times himars i'm not sure it's almost ideal , himars i'm not sure it's almost ideal, logical or intentional on the civil servants. the part of civil servants. i think it is just and this is how we do it and we're not going to change it. yes, i think it depends the civil servant, depends on the civil servant, but i do i do believe kyiv raab when says there could be some when he says there could be some activism in the civil activism going on in the civil service. i lot of these service. i mean, a lot of these poopro— service. i mean, a lot of these poopro wro— service. i mean, a lot of these people who work— service. i mean, a lot of these people who work in— to; i mean, a lot of these people who work in the civil oomroo — people who work in the civil service are very— people who work in the civil service are very political themselves— service are very political. themselves-must service are very political- themselves-must come themselves and that must come out themselves and that must come ourlrporr—

themselves and that must come out their conversations. out in their conversations. anyway, — out in their conversations. anyway, coming up, going out in their conversations. anbeay, coming up, going out in their conversations. an be talking ng up, going out in their conversations. an be talking ngjacob going out in their conversations. an be talking ngjacob rees—mogg to be talking to jacob rees—mogg in to be talking to jacob rees—mogg rm-momom— to be talking to jacob rees—mogg in - moment and - to be talking to jacob rees—mogg in moment and we'll be in just one moment and we'll be oorrrmo—

radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. — radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. wrrp— radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. wrrp mo— radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. with me, emily— radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. tr radio. welcome back to dewbs& co. cr \r:::rrr co. with me, emily carver. now we can speak exclusively to conservative mp and gb news presenter jacob conservative mp and gb news presenterjacob rees—mogg conservative mp and gb news presenter jacob rees—mogg to conservative mp and gb news presenterjacob rees—mogg to get his reaction. jacob thank you very much indeed forjoining me this your this evening. well, your reaction to today's events . reaction to today's events. well, i don't think that- well, i don't think that dominic poop— well, i don't think that dominic rooop mooooo— well, i don't think that dominic raab needed to— well, i don't think that dominic raab needed to resign an i don't rprmr— raab needed to resign an i don't rprmr rpo— raab needed to resign an i don't think the report— raab needed to resign an i don't think the report found he'd done omyrprmo— think the report found he'd done anything improper. and the issue in anything improper. and the issue rm rororrom— anything improper. and the issue rm rororrom ro— anything improper. and the issue in relation to the— anything improper. and the issue in relation to the foreign omroo— in relation to the foreign office that— in relation to the foreign office that seems to have been the office that seems to have been pro roor— office that seems to have been the real cause— office that seems to have been the real cause of— office that seems to have been the real cause of his resignation- the real cause of his resignation is one where civil oomomro— resignation is one where civil oomomro uooo— resignation is one where civil servants were behaving badly in rororrom— servants were behaving badly in rororrom ro— servants were behaving badly in relation to gibraltar. and you wouro— relation to gibraltar. and you wouro povo— relation to gibraltar. and you would have thought any minister uouro— would have thought any minister wouro po— would have thought any minister would be annoyed— would have thought any minister would be annoyed when civil oomomo— would be annoyed when civil servants failed— would be annoyed when civil servants failed to carry out the porroy— servants failed to carry out the porroylrpo— servants failed to carry out the policy .the elected - servants failed to carry out the policy the elected government policy of the elected government . amo— policy of the elected government . amo rm— policy of the elected government . and i'm afraid— policy of the elected government . and i'm afraid this is a romrpro— . and i'm afraid this is a terrible shift— . and i'm afraid this is a. terrible shift-away terrible shift in power away from— terrible shift in power away mom-wro— terrible shift in power away from -who are - from those who are democratically elected,

democratically elected, democratically appointed to rpooo— democratically appointed to those - aren't _ democratically appointed to those-aren't ,- democratically appointed to those-aren't , to- democratically appointed to those aren't , to the civil those who aren't, to the civil oomroo, — those who aren't, to the civil oomroo, ro — those who aren't, to the civil service, to the— those who aren't, to the civil service, to the bureaucracy. roo— service, to the bureaucracy. it's-mistake- service, to the bureaucracy. it's-mistake that. it's a great mistake that pomrmro— it's a great mistake that dominic raab- it's a great mistake that dominic raab has been forced our.— dominic raab has been forced our. row,— dominic raab has been forced out. now, dominic raab suggested that out. now, dominic raab suggested opoo moro— out. now, dominic raab suggested opoo rporo moy— out. now, dominic raab suggested that there may be— out. now, dominic raab suggested that there may be activists urrprm— that there may be activists wrrprm rpo— that there may be activists within the civil— that there may be activists within the civil service roroormo— within the civil service targeting ministers who they are rooorooroorry— targeting ministers who they are ideologically opposed to. have you soon— ideologically opposed to. have you mor— ideologically opposed to. have you seen that ? well,- ideologically opposed to. have you seen that ? well, i- ideologically opposed to. " 7’ well, i think if you seen that? well, i think if you— you seen that? well, i think if you poor— you seen that? well, i think if you poor or— you seen that? well, i think if you look at the— you seen that? well, i think if you look at the report,- " $17 well, i think if you look at the report, it's ourro— you look at the report, it's ourro oroor— you look at the report, it's quite clear that- you look at the report, it's quite clear that a group within the quite clear that a group within mo ruorroo— quite clear that a group within the justice ministry did get rooorpor— the justice ministry did get rooorpor ro— the justice ministry did get together to decide that they uouro— together to decide that they wouro ooy— together to decide that they would say how— together to decide that they would say how awful dominic raab had would say how awful dominic raab poo poop,— would say how awful dominic raab poo be... opoo— would say how awful dominic raab had been, that that— would say how awful dominic raab had been, that that was quite oroorry— had been, that that was quite clearly something that had a mumpo— clearly something that had a mumpo or— clearly something that had a number of conversations behind it. number of conversations behind rr. rpoy— number of conversations behind rr. rpoy worou-r— number of conversations behind it. they weren't spot taneous oomprormo— it. they weren't spot taneous oomprormo .— it. they weren't spot taneous complaints . and— it. they weren't spot taneous complaints . and this seems to me complaints. and this seems to me to complaints. and this seems to me o po— complaints. and this seems to me to be disreputable— complaints. and this seems to me to be disreputable and something that to be disreputable and something opoo opouro— to be disreputable and something that should have— to be disreputable and something that should have been dismissed muop— that should have been dismissed much more harshly by the investigator— much more harshly by the investigator than it was. i roumo— investigator than it was. i roumo o— investigator than it was. i found a mix— investigator than it was. i found a mix with civil servants. i found a mix with civil servants. r roumo— found a mix with civil servants. r roumo opoo— found a mix with civil servants. i found that some— found a mix with civil servants. i found that some who were very oooo— i found that some who were very oooo ouo— i found that some who were very oooo opo yory— i found that some who were very good and very hardworking and orporo— good and very hardworking and orporo opo— good and very hardworking and others who didn't— good and very hardworking and others who didn't share the omprrrom— others who didn't share the ambition of— others who didn't share the ambition of the— others who didn't share the ambition of the government . ambition of the government. now:— ambition of the government. now. rpro— ambition of the government. now, this isn't— ambition of the government. now, this isn't the— ambition of the government. now, this isn't the first-

now, this isn't the first concert minister that's been accused of bullying . of course, accused of bullying. of course, priti patel was as well alok sharma by civil service agents. do you think there's a trend emerging or do you think conservative ministers are particularly aggressive in their roles . particularly aggressive in their roles. well, particularly aggressive in their roles . well, i don't think they roles. well, i don't think they are, no. certainly— well, i don't think they are, no. certainly nobody ever oouooo— are, no. certainly nobody ever accused me of— are, no. certainly nobody ever accused me of being aggressive. but accused me of being aggressive. pur rpooo— accused me of being aggressive. pur rpooo oo— accused me of being aggressive. but these are high— accused me of being aggressive. but these are high pressure roroo— but these are high pressure roroo ouo— but these are high pressure roles and people working for the oopury— roles and people working for the oopury rrrmo— roles and people working for the deputy prime minister aren't on the deputy prime minister aren't on pro roooy— deputy prime minister aren't on the teddy bears— deputy prime minister aren't on the teddy bears picnic. they muor— the teddy bears picnic. they muor oxpoor— the teddy bears picnic. they must expect it— the teddy bears picnic. they must expect it to be a tough and ropuor— must expect it to be a tough and ropuor working— must expect it to be a tough and robust working environment . i robust working environment. i rprmr— robust working environment. i rprmr roo— robust working environment. i think it's absolutely ridiculous to think it's absolutely ridiculous ro rprmr— think it's absolutely ridiculous to think that— think it's absolutely ridiculous to think that it's— think it's absolutely ridiculous to think that it's going to be opyrprmo— to think that it's going to be anything other— to think that it's going to be anything other than that when youo— anything other than that when you running— anything other than that when you're running the country and ooororomo— you're running the country and decisions have— you're running the country and decisions have to— you're running the country and decisions have to be made very roprory— decisions have to be made very roprory ouo— decisions have to be made very roprory opo high— decisions have to be made very rapidly and high standards are oxpooroo— rapidly and high standards are oxpooroo .— rapidly and high standards are expected . now— rapidly and high standards are expected . now that dominic raab expected. now that dominic raab oomormoro— expected. now that dominic raab sometimes said— expected. now that dominic raab sometimes said that work wasn't oooo— sometimes said that work wasn't oooo opouop— sometimes said that work wasn't oooo opouop, mou— sometimes said that work wasn't good enough, now you must be omrrrroo— good enough, now you must be omrrrroo ro— good enough, now you must be entitled to say— good enough, now you must be entitled to say that as a mrmroror— entitled to say that as a mrmroror .— entitled to say that as a minister . and- entitled to say that as a minister. and there was a lot of ouoo— minister. and there was a lot of ruoo opour— minister. and there was a lot of fuss about him— minister. and there was a lot of fuss about him saying that civil oomomo— fuss about him saying that civil servants should— fuss about him saying that civil servants should pay attention to the servants should pay attention to pro ro— servants should pay attention to pro ro rpo— servants should pay attention to the to the civil— servants should pay attention to the to the civil service code. rou—

the to the civil service code. now whether— the to the civil service code. now whether he _ the to the civil service code. now whether he said that or not is now whether he said that or not ro o— now whether he said that or not ro o morror— now whether he said that or not ro o motor or— now whether he said that or not is a matter of dispute, but oopuoppy— is a matter of dispute, but ooruorry, ro— is a matter of dispute, but actually, it seems to me a pomoorry— actually, it seems to me a perfectly reasonable thing to soy,— perfectly reasonable thing to say, particularly— perfectly reasonable thing to say, particularly when in this opoorrro— say, particularly when in this specific instance— say, particularly when in this specific instance over gibraltar, _ specific instance over gibraltar, it- specific instance over gibraltar, it looks as if the crop— gibraltar, it looks as if the civil service— gibraltar, it looks as if the civil service were ignoring the democratically— civil service were ignoring the democratically elected governments policy, which of course under— governments policy, which of course under the— governments policy, which of course under the civil service ooo,— course under the civil service oooo, rpoy-ro — course under the civil service code, they're not— course under the civil service code, they're not allowed to do so. code, they're not allowed to do so— code, they're not allowed to do so r— code, they're not allowed to do so r rprmr— code, they're not allowed to do so. so i think you— code, they're not allowed to do so. so i think you need to have poopro— so. so i think you need to have poopro orp— so. so i think you need to have poopro mm o— so. so i think you need to have people with a bit— so. so i think you need to have people with a bit of backbone oomrmo— people with a bit of backbone oomrmo rm— people with a bit of backbone working in the— people with a bit of backbone working in the government and this snowflake— working in the government and this snowflake theory is oomoomo— this snowflake theory is damaging for- this snowflake theory is damaging for democracy. do you rprmr— damaging for democracy. do you rprmr rpro— damaging for democracy. do you think this whole— damaging for democracy. do you think this whole saga may have consequences for— think this whole saga may have consequences for that? �*so�* cc consequences for that? will poromoo.— consequences for that? will talented, ambitious aukus and ministers or potential ministers strong ethic ethic and high standards be put off from entering cabinet? perhaps no , i entering cabinet? perhaps no, i wouldn't say that. what i think is more insidious— wouldn't say that. what i think is more insidious is— wouldn't say that. what i think is more insidious is that- is more insidious is that mrmrororo— is more insidious is that ministers will- is more insidious is that ministers will be less willing to ministers will be less willing ro rorrow— ministers will be less willing to follow robust— ministers will be less willing to follow robust policies pouo— to follow robust policies because they - to follow robust policies because they will be worried opoo— because they will be worried opoo orvrr— because they will be worried that civil servants will comprom— that civil servants will complain if- that civil servants will complain if the minister pushes for o—

complain if the minister pushes for a particular— complain if the minister pushes for a particular policy or rorooro— for a particular policy or rorooro o— for a particular policy or rejects a piece- for a particular policy or rejects a piece of work that is mor— rejects a piece of work that is moo oooo— rejects a piece of work that is not good enough— rejects a piece of work that is not good enough and inevitably proooo— not good enough and inevitably some pieces of— not good enough and inevitably some pieces of work are not good omouop— some pieces of work are not good omouop omo— some pieces of work are not good enough and need— some pieces of work are not good enough and need to— some pieces of work are not good enough and need to be revised . enough and need to be revised. amo— enough and need to be revised. amo rm— enough and need to be revised. amo r-m orp— enough and need to be revised. amo r-m orr rm— enough and need to be revised. and i'm all in favour of good manners. i think— and i'm all in favour of good manners. i think politeness is vory— manners. i think politeness is yory rmporrom— manners. i think politeness is very important and it oils the wpoopo— very important and it oils the upooro or— very important and it oils the upooro or oo— very important and it oils the wheels of so many things. none the wheels of so many things. none rpo pooo— wheels of so many things. none rpo rooo rpo— wheels of so many things. none the less the government of the ooumrry— the less the government of the ooumrry poo— the less the government of the ooumry poo ro— the less the government of the country has to be— the less the government of the country has to be carried on and oomroo— country has to be carried on and oomroo — country has to be carried on and carried on. effective— country has to be carried on and carried on. effective albie oomormoro— carried on. effective albie sometimes-are- carried on. effective albie sometimes are in high sometimes these are in high prooouroo— sometimes these are in high pressured situations and there romp— pressured situations and there isn't necessarily— pressured situations and there isn't necessarily the time to say— isn't necessarily the time to ooy orp— isn't necessarily the time to ooy or pro — isn't necessarily the time to say all the pleases and thank youo— say all the pleases and thank youo mor— say all the pleases and thank youo poor you— say all the pleases and thank yous that you might say at a moroom— yous that you might say at a maiden aunts— yous that you might say at a maiden aunts dinner party. just very— maiden aunts dinner party. just yory roomy.— maiden aunts dinner party. just yory roomy, poop.— maiden aunts dinner party. just very lastly, jacob, why- maiden aunts dinner party. just very lastly, jacob, why do- maiden aunts dinner party. just very lastly, jacob, why do you think rishi sunak the prime minister has not stood by dominic raab? if what you say is true, that the threshold for bullying was too low and that dominic raab has not done anything explicitly wrong in his conduct , why anything explicitly wrong in his conduct, why has rishi sunak allowed him to resign, forced him to resign . well, you will him to resign. well, you will pooo— him to resign. well, you will povo ro— him to resign. well, you will povo ro oop— him to resign. well, you will have to ask the— him to resign. well, you will have to ask the prime- " 1.35er well, you will have to ask the prime minister oporoomom— have to ask the prime minister oporoomom wry. — have to ask the prime minister spokesman why. but i think it's a spokesman why. but i think it's o mrororo.— spokesman why. but i think it's o mrororo. r— spokesman why. but i think it's a mistake. i think— spokesman why. but i think it's a mistake. i think it makes formrmo— a mistake. i think it makes forming governments harder that the forming governments harder that pro ooyommom— forming governments harder that the government of— forming governments harder that the government of the country

muor— the government of the country muor po— the government of the country must be appointed by the king's pror— must be appointed by the king's first minister. _ must be appointed by the king's first minister. that is the rumo— first minister. that is the prime minister- first minister. that is the prime minister who has the momooro— prime minister who has the mandate from _ prime minister who has the mandate from the house of commomo— mandate from the house of commomo ro— mandate from the house of commons to decide who ministers opouro— commons to decide who ministers opouro po. — commons to decide who ministers opouro po. ro— commons to decide who ministers should be. it shouldn't be formoo— should be. it shouldn't be farmed out— should be. it shouldn't be farmed out to— should be. it shouldn't be farmed out to unelected omrororo— farmed out to unelected omrororo .— farmed out to unelected officials , to— farmed out to unelected officials , to panjandrums and to officials, to panjandrums and to the officials, to panjandrums and to pro moomrmo— officials, to panjandrums and to the moaning minnies in some orvrr— the moaning minnies in some orvrr oomroo— the moaning minnies in some civil service outlets. thank you vory— civil service outlets. thank you vory muop— civil service outlets. thank you very much indeed. t very much indeed. jacob rees-m099— very much indeed. jacob rees—mogg there concern lviv mp and of course a gb news presenter who'll be back on monday. i believe. so let me reintroduce my panel . charlotte reintroduce my panel. charlotte pickles, director of the reform think tank, paul mbappe, think tank, and paul mbappe, author, and trade author, firemen and trade unionist . well, charlotte, your unionist. well, charlotte, your reaction to what jacob said there. he's not impressed at by what rishi sunak has done, not standing by dominic raab as far as i'm aware, when it's a resignation, that's something that dominic raab has decided to do. i think in his resignation ooorm— do. i think in his resignation oorrom, po— do. i think in his resignation action, he said— r2r:::r i think in his resignation action, he said that he r2rt:r i think in his resignation action, he said that he had opvrouory— action, he said that he had obviously asked for this inquiry and obviously asked for this inquiry omo opoo— obviously asked for this inquiry omo opoo ro— obviously asked for this inquiry and that if the— obviously asked for this inquiry and that if the inquiry found opoo— and that if the inquiry found opoo po— and that if the inquiry found opoo po poo,— and that if the inquiry found that he had, you know , acted in that he had, you know, acted in a that he had, you know, acted in ouoy— that he had, you know, acted in ouoy opoo— that he had, you know, acted in a way that appeared to breach the ministerial— a way that appeared to breach the ministerial code, that he wouro— the ministerial code, that he

wouro roorom— the ministerial code, that he would resign. and he's done in his would resign. and he's done in pro oyoo— would resign. and he's done in pro oyoo rpo— would resign. and he's done in his eyes, the honourable thing. i his eyes, the honourable thing. r rprmr— his eyes, the honourable thing. i think clearly— his eyes, the honourable thing. i think clearly we've all said we i think clearly we've all said yo rprmr— i think clearly we've all said we think the— i think clearly we've all said we think the bar— i think clearly we've all said we think the bar is set too low. we we think the bar is set too low. yuo r— we think the bar is set too low. yuo r rprmr— we think the bar is set too low. yuo r rprmr py— we think the bar is set too low. we i think by definition , we i think by definition, rporororo— we i think by definition, therefore think he probably opourom-r— therefore think he probably shouldn't have— therefore think he probably shouldn't have needed to resign. but shouldn't have needed to resign. puo opoo— shouldn't have needed to resign. puo opoo woo— shouldn't have needed to resign. but that was his— shouldn't have needed to resign. but that was his decision. and i rprmr— but that was his decision. and i rprmr oroorry— but that was his decision. and i think clearly it's— but that was his decision. and i think clearly it's not a happy ooororom— think clearly it's not a happy ooororom .— think clearly it's not a happy decision , but— think clearly it's not a happy decision , but it's— think clearly it's not a happy decision , but it's a decision decision, but it's a decision po-o— decision, but it's a decision po-o porou— decision, but it's a decision po-o rorom .— decision, but it's a decision he's taken . the— decision, but it's a decision he's taken . the prime minister he's taken. the prime minister is he's taken. the prime minister ro r— he's taken. the prime minister ro r rprmr— he's taken. the prime minister ro r rprmr .— he's taken. the prime minister is i think , not— he's taken. the prime minister is i think , not really from is i think, not really from a porrrroor— is i think, not really from a political sense,— is i think, not really from a political sense, in a position to political sense, in a position ro rum— political sense, in a position to turn around— political sense, in a position to turn around and say, no, i room-r— to turn around and say, no, i won-r oooopr— to turn around and say, no, i won't accept your- to turn around and say, no, i won't accept your resignation, omo— won't accept your resignation, omo ooruorry— won't accept your resignation, omo ooruorry r— won't accept your resignation, and actually i want you to stay in and actually i want you to stay rm ppooo— and actually i want you to stay rm prooo. r— and actually i want you to stay in place. ithink— and actually i want you to stay in place. i think that's a bit of in place. i think that's a bit or porrrroor— in place. i think that's a bit of political naivety. motty to rprmr— of political naivety. motty to mom opoo— of political naivety. motty to think that prime minister think that the prime minister wouro— think that the prime minister wouro oo— think that the prime minister would do that. _ think that the prime minister would do that. so you know, if someone resigns,— would do that. so you know, if someone resigns, ordinarily the rumo— someone resigns, ordinarily the rrrmo-wrrr— someone resigns, ordinarily the prime-will accept- someone resigns, ordinarily the prime will accept that prime minister will accept that rooromorrom— prime minister will accept that rooromorrom. — prime minister will accept that resignation . is— prime minister will accept that resignation . ” 37 prime minister will accept that resignation . 37 resignation. is that right? paul yeah , i think that's probably yeah, i think that's probably true. and you know, we to true. and you know, we need to remember that— true. and you know, we need to remember that-civil- remember that these civil oomomo— remember that these civil oomomo py— remember that these civil servants, by way, involved servants, by the way, involved in servants, by the way, involved rm oomolrpro— servants, by the way, involved in some this stuff, they were in some of this stuff, they were not-officials.— in some of this stuff, they were not-officials. they- in some of this stuff, they were not officials. they were not junior officials. they were seasoned and— not junior officials. they were seasoned and senior civil oomomo— seasoned and senior civil oomomo or— seasoned and senior civil servants at the- seasoned and senior civil servants at the top of the tree opo— servants at the top of the tree who themselves _ servants at the top of the tree who themselves have a job with

considerable— who themselves have a job with considerable power and responsibility and frankly, opouro— responsibility and frankly, should not— responsibility and frankly, should not be— responsibility and frankly, should not be shrinking violets if should not be shrinking violets rr rpoy— should not be shrinking violets rr rpoy oo— should not be shrinking violets if they are shrinking violets, opou— if they are shrinking violets, rpom rpoy-ro — if they are shrinking violets, then they're in— if they are shrinking violets, then they're in the wrong poorrrom. — then they're in the wrong poorrrom. ao— then they're in the wrong position. as far as i can see. so— position. as far as i can see. so r— position. as far as i can see. so r rprmr— position. as far as i can see. so i think jacob— position. as far as i can see. so i think jacob rees—mogg had a porno— so i think jacob rees—mogg had a porno oopuoppy— so i think jacob rees—mogg had a point actually, and— so i think jacob rees—mogg had a point actually, and i— so i think jacob rees—mogg had a point actually, and i do wonder omo— point actually, and i do wonder omo r— point actually, and i do wonder omo r rprmr— point actually, and i do wonder and i think it's— point actually, and i do wonder and i think it's relevant to at rooor— and i think it's relevant to at rooor troop— and i think it's relevant to at least float the _ and i think it's relevant to at least float the idea whether rpro— least float the idea whether rpro ro— least float the idea whether this is actually— least float the idea whether this is actually a generational rprmo. — this is actually a generational rprmo. r— this is actually a generational rprmo. r muoo— this is actually a generational thing. i mean, going back to the tony— thing. i mean, going back to the romy pomp— thing. i mean, going back to the romy pom rprmo— thing. i mean, going back to the tony benn thing that i mentioned oomrm— tony benn thing that i mentioned oorrror pro— tony benn thing that i mentioned earlier, his permanent oooropory— earlier, his permanent secretary, sir- earlier, his permanent secretary, sir anthony bupa, ormoor— secretary, sir anthony bupa, ormoor uooo— secretary, sir anthony bupa, almost wore those battles he had wrrp— almost wore those battles he had urrp romy— almost wore those battles he had urrp romy pomp— almost wore those battles he had with tony benn as— almost wore those battles he had with tony benn as a badge of porou— with tony benn as a badge of pomour uo— with tony benn as a badge of honour. he gave— with tony benn as a badge of honour. he gave media interviews roror— honour. he gave media interviews poor or— honour. he gave media interviews poor or rm— honour. he gave media interviews roror om rm pro— honour. he gave media interviews later on in his life— honour. he gave media interviews later on in his life where he rorroo— later on in his life where he pouoo—rpoy- later on in his life where hei talked _they would later on in his life where he- talked _they would be talked about how they would be at talked about how they would be or-orporo— talked about how they would be at-other's throats- talked about how they would be at other's throats these at each other's throats in these moorrmoo— at each other's throats in these meetings _wantedl meetings where benn wanted oomormoo— meetings where benn wanted something done— meetings where benn wanted something done certain way and something done a certain way and part— something done a certain way and pom-opoo— something done a certain way and pom-opoo ro— something done a certain way and pom-opoo rr uoo- something done a certain way and part that it was wrong . part thought that it was wrong. moro— part thought that it was wrong. rporo-mo— part thought that it was wrong. there no suggestion that sir there was no suggestion that sir armory— there was no suggestion that sir amrpomy pupo— there was no suggestion that sir anthony bupa, who himself was a pormomom— anthony bupa, who himself was a permanent secretary, a seasoned omroror— permanent secretary, a seasoned omroror rm— permanent secretary, a seasoned omroror rm ony— permanent secretary, a seasoned official in any way,— permanent secretary, a seasoned official in any way, took omomoo— official in any way, took offence at— official in any way, took offence at tony benn, going for prm— offence at tony benn, going for prm rm— offence at tony benn, going for prm rm rpooo— offence at tony benn, going for him in those meetings and making oomorm— him in those meetings and making certain demands.— him in those meetings and making certain demands. just wonder certain demands. i just wonder roooy— certain demands. i just wonder roooy ro— certain demands. i just wonder roooy rr roo— certain demands. i just wonder roooy r to o— certain demands. i just wonder today if it's a generational rprmo— today if it's a generational rpmo wporo— today if it's a generational thing where people think, oopuoppy— thing where people think, actually,-in- thing where people think, actually,-in a- thing where people think, actually, in a meeting thing where people think, actuosomebodyin a meeting thing where people think, actuosomebody ,| a meeting thing where people think, actuosomebody , ia meeting thing where people think, actuosomebody , i expect ng thing where people think, actuosomebody , i expect complete with somebody, i expect complete

porrromooo— with somebody, i expect complete porrromooo omo— with somebody, i expect complete politeness and courtesy. and if oyo— politeness and courtesy. and if oyo poroo— politeness and courtesy. and if anyone takes robust line with anyone takes a robust line with me anyone takes a robust line with molrm— anyone takes a robust line with molrm-woy— anyone takes a robust line with me in way criticises me, me or in any way criticises me, r-m — me or in any way criticises me, r-m omormoo.— me or in any way criticises me, i'm offended. and— me or in any way criticises me, i'm offended. and actually i can moro— i'm offended. and actually i can moro o— i'm offended. and actually i can make a complaint.— i'm offended. and actually i can make a complaint. it's just unrealistic,— make a complaint. it's just unrealistic, isn't- make a complaint. it's just unrealistic, isn't g unrealistic, isn't it? although personally i hate passive aggression. that's what i hate in the workplace. i'd rather someone told me my work was rubbish and not good enough than sort of , you know, us rubbish and not good enough than sort of, you know, us made passive aggressive comments and he was. i mean, but that's just me. clearly, raab was, you know, po-o— me. clearly, raab was, you know, poo poo— me. clearly, raab was, you know, poo poo r— me. clearly, raab was, you know, poo poo r ooo-r— me. clearly, raab was, you know, he's not i don't think— clearly, raab was, you know, he's not i don't think he's the oom— he's not i don't think he's the oorr or— he's not i don't think he's the oorr or poor— he's not i don't think he's the sort of person i— he's not i don't think he's the sort of person i would want to go oomrmo— sort of person i would want to go dancing with,— sort of person i would want to go dancing with, particularly. uo-o— go dancing with, particularly. ooo-my- go dancing with, particularly. uo-o-my-orl go dancing with, particularly.| he's-my-of tea. go dancing with, particularly. he's-my-of tea. i he's not really my cup of tea. i rprmr— he's not really my cup of tea. i rprmr po-o— he's not really my cup of tea. i think he's probably abrasive. i rprmr— think he's probably abrasive. i rprmr po-o— think he's probably abrasive. i think he's probably abrasive. i think he's probably petulant. but think he's probably petulant. puo—or- think he's probably petulant.j puo—or poopro think he's probably petulant.- but_of people can but you know, lots of people can be but you know, lots of people can po-omo— but you know, lots of people can po-omo-wpoml be abrasive and petulant when rpoy-ro—or- be abrasive and petulant when they're—of power. be abrasive and petulant when they're—of power .i they're in positions of power. rm— they're in positions of power. i'm .convinced- they're in positions of power. i'm convinced within this i'm not convinced within this roporr— i'm not convinced within this roporr-upor-o— report that what's shown ooruorry— report that what's shown actually -to - report that what's shown - actually -to bullying. report that what's shown - actually-to bullying. i actually amounts to bullying. i roorry— actually amounts to bullying. i roorry ooo-r— actually amounts to bullying. i really don't think— actually amounts to bullying. i really don't think this is we propopry— really don't think this is we probably don't— really don't think this is we probably don't want. so i opoorurory— probably don't want. so i absolutely agree- probably don't want. so i absolutely agree doesn't absolutely agree it doesn't amount but we amount to bullying, but we probably want ministers probably don't want ministers who be behaving at the who should be behaving at the highest standards and behaving in a petulant if indeed he in a petulant way. if indeed he did, you know, we would hope that they greater confidence that they had greater confidence and to deal with that they had greater confidence and situations to deal with that they had greater confidence and situations in to deal with that they had greater confidence and situations in tcmore with

these situations in a more professional manner. if these situations in a more professional manner . if the professional manner. if the allegations accurate . that's allegations are accurate. that's true. and i mean, personally, i oomp— true. and i mean, personally, i oom-r rpoy.— true. and i mean, personally, i don't know. none— true. and i mean, personally, i don't know. none of— and i mean, personally, i don't know. none of us were in pro— don't know. none of us were in pro oom— don't know. none of us were in pro orp— don't know. none of us were in the room with dominic raab at opoo— the room with dominic raab at opoo momom— the room with dominic raab at that moment. he— the room with dominic raab at that moment. he may have been porrrourorry— that moment. he may have been particularly frustrating, ooorooorvo— particularly frustrating, aggressive rude as well. particularly frustrating,- aggressive-rude as well. we aggressive and rude as well. we ooo-r— aggressive and rude as well. we oom-r rpoy.— aggressive and rude as well. we don't know. but— aggressive and rude as well. we don't know. but does it mean bullying?— don't know. but does it mean purrymoo-rr— don't know. but does it mean bullying? it mean he should bullying? does it mean he should resign?— bullying? does it mean he should roorom mor— bullying? does it mean he should roorom rpor ro— bullying? does it mean he should resign? that is the— bullying? does it mean he should resign? that is the question resign? that is the big question . pur— resign? that is the big question . puo oomrmo— resign? that is the big question . pur oomrmo up,— resign? that is the big question . but coming up, we're moving om.— . but coming up, we're moving om. pomrmro— . but coming up, we're moving off. dominic raab,— . but coming up, we're moving off. dominic raab, are you ooormo— off. dominic raab, are you looking forward to a comfortable rorrromomr— looking forward to a comfortable rorrromom 7— looking forward to a comfortable retirement .7 apparently that's retirement? apparently that's going— retirement? apparently that's oomo ro— retirement? apparently that's oomo ro po— retirement? apparently that's going to be getting harder and pooo.— going to be getting harder and harden-think- going to be getting harder and harder. think tank harder. a leading think tank ooyo— harder. a leading think tank ooyo-ororo— harder. a leading think tank says state pension age could says the state pension age could hit says the state pension age could prrlwrrprm— says the state pension age could hit-within the _ says the state pension age could hit.within the next— says the state pension age could hit within the next three hit 70 within the next three ooooooo. — hit 70 within the next three decades. good— hit 70 within the next three decades. good bad idea

true defender of liberty. yeah i've completely derailed the conversation. join me monday to rpuroooy— conversation. join me monday to rpuroooy or— conversation. join me monday to rpuroooy or 8— conversation. join me monday to rpuroooy or o pm.— conversation. join me monday to thursday at 8 pm. on- conversation. join me monday to thursday at 8 pm. on .- t" join me monday to thursday at 8 pm. on . gb news. thursday at 8 pm. on. gb news. you-ro— thursday at 8 pm. on. gb news. vou-ro omormo— thursday at 8 pm. on. gb news. you're watching dewbs&- thursday at 8 pm. on. gb news. you're watching dewbs& co- thursday at 8 pm. on. gb news. you're watching dewbs& co with me, emily carver keeping me company this evening until 7:00. it's charlotte pickles, director of the reform think tank, and paul mbappe, author, fireman and trade unionist. so your views on the dominic raab resignation? rob says as a civil servant,

it's a shame raab has been forced out . please remember his forced out. please remember his issues are with director levels refusing to follow the government's agenda for us on the lower levels. also feel frustrations when the directors are telling us to do one thing against the wishes of the government. all lefty government. we aren't all lefty leaning that's leaning after all. well, that's very indeed. very interesting indeed. that comment there. peter says what happened today to dominic raab should be a wake up call to all ministers. they should start sacking civil servants that underperform are not underperform if they are not doing job they were employed doing the job they were employed to there's a question to do. well, there's a question about capability, isn't there , about capability, isn't there, charlotte? we were discussing earlier and also susan says the exclusive interview with raab was great. brian says, what an excellent interview by gb news questions asked. time given questions were asked. time given for answers. interruption for answers. no interruption from interviewer. unlike from the interviewer. unlike other channels. very good, other news channels. very good, gb news. that's high praise for olivia utley our political reporter. excellent stuff. kyiv your views coming in. please do. but we're moving on. are you looking forward to a comfortable retirement? if you're already close to it, then you should be fine for now. but for those of

us further down the road, the existing state pension might be more of an aspiration iron than existing state pension might be mnailed an aspiration iron than existing state pension might be mnailed on aspiration iron than existing state pension might be mnailed on rightttion iron than existing state pension might be mnailed on right .ion iron than existing state pension might be mnailed on right. the ron than existing state pension might be mnailed on right. the institute a nailed on right. the institute for fiscal studies says the state age could hit 70 state pension age could hit 70 in the next three decades as it looks like the onus on funding your may fall back on your retirement may fall back on us individuals. is that us as individuals. is that right, charlotte? what you right, charlotte? what do you think i think it's firstly think? oh, i think it's firstly ourro— think? oh, i think it's firstly quite important— think? oh, i think it's firstly quite important to- “

your employer will give you. rmoooo,— your employer will give you. rmoooolro— your employer will give you. indeed,-is also- your employer will give you. indeed, is also very common indeed, this is also very common in indeed, this is also very common rm—wporooo- in the public sector, whereas poopro— in the public sector, whereas poopro oomrmo— in the public sector, whereas people coming through now are not people coming through now are poor oomo— people coming through now are poor oomolpovo— people coming through now are not going have that and not going to have that and rpoy-ro— not going to have that and they're-saving- not going to have that and they're saving enough. so they're not saving enough. so i oomp— they're not saving enough. so i oom-r rprmr— they're not saving enough. so i don't think it's— they're not saving enough. so i don't think it's so— they're not saving enough. so i don't think it's so much about rpo— don't think it's so much about rpo ororo— don't think it's so much about the state pension.— don't think it's so much about the state pension. it's about are—beingl are we as individuals being roopoporpro— are we as individuals being responsible putting some responsible and putting some momoy— responsible and putting some momoy-rpor- responsible and putting some money that when we hit money aside so that when we hit oomomoo,— money aside so that when we hit retirement, we— money aside so that when we hit retirement, we are— money aside so that when we hit retirement, we are going have retirement, we are going to have a retirement, we are going to have o oomrorropro— retirement, we are going to have a comfortable combination of the oooro— a comfortable combination of the oooro pomorom— a comfortable combination of the state pension and— a comfortable combination of the state pension and private pomoromo— state pension and private pensions that— state pension and private pensions that we've invested moo.— pensions that we've invested moo-or— pensions that we've invested into.-of course- pensions that we've invested into.-of course ,- pensions that we've invested into.-of course ,.it- pensions that we've invested into. of course , it kicks into. but of course, if it kicks into. but of course, if it kicks rm porou— into. but of course, if it kicks rm roror, you— into. but of course, if it kicks in later, you will— into. but of course, if it kicks in later, you will be receiving rooo—rpo- in later, you will be receiving less—the course. in later, you will be receivingl less—the course of less money over the course of your— less money over the course of your-room— less money over the course of your-room r— less money over the course of your-yeah, i mean,- less money over the course of your-yeah, i mean, if. less money over the course of your-yeah, i mean, if iti your life. yeah, i mean, if it was 70 dodi, then you would have far fewer years potentially . far fewer years potentially. well, about you'd well, you'd have about you'd have two years have about two years less because already going up to because it's already going up to 68. i feel this is when 68. i feel like this is when poopro— 68. i feel like this is when poopro ooy,— 68. i feel like this is when poopro ooy, op,— trb i feel like this is when people say, oh, it's going tr3 i feel like this is when people say, oh, it's going up to 70. people say, oh, it's going up to re. arr— people say, oh, it's going up to 70. apr mopp— people say, oh, it's going up to 70. all right. but— people say, oh, it's going up to 70. all right. but it's already going— 70. all right. but it's already going up— 70. all right. but it's already oomo up ro— 70. all right. but it's already going up to 68-_ 70. all right. but it's already going up to 68. so there's a ooupro— going up to 68. so there's a ooupro or— going up to 68. so there's a couple of years— going up to 68. so there's a couple of years longer. life couple of years longer. our life oopooromy— expectancy is quite significant. so expectancy is quite significant. po—rpo- expectancy is quite significant.j po—rpo pomorom expectancy is quite significant.- so_the pension was so when the when the pension was rmroouooo, — so when the when the pension was rmroouooo, r— so when the when the pension was introduced, i think— so when the when the pension was introduced, i think it— so when the when the pension was introduced, i think it was oomormoo— introduced, i think it was something 1908. and it was something like 1908. and it was rmoroorpro— something like 1908. and it was incredible introduce incredible to introduce this pooroo.— incredible to introduce this. pomorom—uoo pension. life expectancy was youmoor— pension. life expectancy was youmoor-rpo— pension. life expectancy was younger-the-at- pension. life expectancy was younger the at which younger than the age at which you— younger than the age at which you-your— younger than the age at which you -your pension. . you could get your pension. romoromoo— you could get your pension. pensioners-live- you could get your pension. pensioners live for pensioners now can live for ooooooo— pensioners now can live for decades reliant— pensioners now can live for decades reliant on taxpayers rumormo— decades reliant on taxpayers funding opoo. — decades reliant on taxpayers funding that. now again, people

will funding that. now again, people wrrr po— funding that. now again, people will be writing— funding that. now again, people will be writing in— funding that. now again, people will be writing in and saying, no,— will be writing in and saying, no, roo— will be writing in and saying, no, to too— will be writing in and saying, no, i've i've paid— will be writing in and saying, no, i've i've paid for that. you povom-r— no, i've i've paid for that. you povom-r .— no, i've i've paid for that. you haven't . you've— no, i've i've paid for that. you haven't . you've paid for a haven't. you've paid for a oomorm— haven't. you've paid for a certain number- haven't. you've paid for a certain number of years , but certain number of years, but ooruorry— certain number of years, but actually there's— certain number of years, but actually there's no pot. you're mor— actually there's no pot. you're moo ooormo— actually there's no pot. you're moo ooormo rm— actually there's no pot. you're not saving in terms of your ororo— not saving in terms of your state pension— not saving in terms of your state pension into a pot. aoruorry— state pension into a pot. actually it's— state pension into a pot. actually it's working. people roo— actually it's working. people to you— actually it's working. people rr-o you omo— actually it's working. people rr-o you omo r— actually it's working. people it's you and i here who are paying— it's you and i here who are poymo for— it's you and i here who are paying for that. _ it's you and i here who are paying for that. older generations- paying for that. older generations pension and there are generations pension and there rouor or— generations pension and there are fewer of us. _ generations pension and there are fewer of us. g are fewer of us. the average person will receive more than they put in through taxes. i've seen statistics to show that . seen statistics to show that. paul seen statistics to show that. paul. there seems to be an unfortunate generational, intergenerational war going on at the moment. whenever the pension age is debated , we see pension age is debated, we see younger people in their 20s and 30s saying it's so unfair. i'm having to fund through my taxes . these older people who are retiring too late living very long, getting all of these extra benefits and things . i really, benefits and things. i really, really hate that argument . but really hate that argument. but is there any truth .7 no, not not is there any truth? no, not not really . i is there any truth? no, not not roorry . r muoo— is there any truth? no, not not really . i mean, there- scot; rty 137 no, not not really . i mean, there may be 3rt.”rt; rty 137 no, not not really . i mean, there may be in really. i mean, there may be in some cases, but— really. i mean, there may be in some cases, but by— really. i mean, there may be in some cases, but by and large, i rprmr— some cases, but by and large, i

think pensioners— some cases, but by and large, i think pensioners in— some cases, but by and large, i think pensioners in this country , think pensioners in this country . uo oo— think pensioners in this country . uo oo pooo— think pensioners in this country .wo oo povo ro— think pensioners in this country , we do have it well, millions of pensioners,— , we do have it well, millions of pensioners, i— , we do have it well, millions of pensioners, i think. and you know— of pensioners, i think. and you know .— of pensioners, i think. and you know . poopro— of pensioners, i think. and you know . poopro or— of pensioners, i think. and you know , people of an older know, people of an older oomororrom— know, people of an older generation do _ know, people of an older generation do have it quite rouop— generation do have it quite rouop omo— generation do have it quite tough and are— generation do have it quite tough and are affected by the ooor— tough and are affected by the coop or— tough and are affected by the cost of living— tough and are affected by the cost of living crisis as much as opypooy— cost of living crisis as much as opypooy-amo— cost of living crisis as much as opypooy-amo r— cost of living crisis as much as anybody and i just think anybody else. and i just think opou— anybody else. and i just think opoo-ro— anybody else. and i just think upon-p ony- anybody else. and i just think when to any proposal to when it comes to any proposal to rpo— when it comes to any proposal to increase the pension age, i've orouoo— increase the pension age, i've orouoo om— increase the pension age, i've orouoo om rpro— increase the pension age, i've argued on this channel before, it argued on this channel before, rr-po— argued on this channel before, rr-po omor- argued on this channel before, it-be driven by- argued on this channel before, it be driven by health it needs to be driven by health omo— it needs to be driven by health omo proo— it needs to be driven by health and life expectancy considerations, not by economic considerations. _ considerations, not by economic considerations. now you know, for momy— considerations. now you know, for mopy yooro— considerations. now you know, ror mopy yooro .— considerations. now you know, for many years , as we know, life for many years, as we know, life oopooromoy— for many years, as we know, life oopooropoy uoo— for many years, as we know, life expectancy was rising in this ooumrry— expectancy was rising in this ooumrry omo— expectancy was rising in this country and across the western ooroo— country and across the western world. actually,— country and across the western world. actually, that is not so ooor— world. actually, that is not so oroor our— world. actually, that is not so clear cut now,— world. actually, that is not so clear cut now, particularly in pro— clear cut now, particularly in pro ooro— clear cut now, particularly in pro woro or— clear cut now, particularly in the wake of the— clear cut now, particularly in the wake of the pandemic. and, you— the wake of the pandemic. and, you know.— the wake of the pandemic. and, you know, health— the wake of the pandemic. and, you know, health concerns , you know, health concerns, poopro— you know, health concerns, poopro mow— you know, health concerns, people now suffering as a result of people now suffering as a result or proyrouory— people now suffering as a result of previously undetected cancers and of previously undetected cancers omo pooro— of previously undetected cancers and heart disease— of previously undetected cancers and heart disease and excess ooorpo— and heart disease and excess ooorpo omo— and heart disease and excess deaths and everything else . i deaths and everything else. i rprmr— deaths and everything else. i rprmr rpo— deaths and everything else. i think the case— deaths and everything else. i think the case that life oopooropoy— think the case that life expectancy is on some kind of rmoourry— expectancy is on some kind of moourry porp— expectancy is on some kind of inequity path upwards , i just inequity path upwards, i just ooo-r— inequity path upwards, i just our rprmr— inequity path upwards, i just don't think is— inequity path upwards, i just don't think is convincing at the momom — don't think is convincing at the momom so— don't think is convincing at the momom so ro— don't think is convincing at the moment. so it strikes me as propopry— moment. so it strikes me as propopry rpo— moment. so it strikes me as probably the worst possible time that probably the worst possible time rpor uo— probably the worst possible time opoo uo coupo— probably the worst possible time that we could talk— probably the worst possible time that we could talk about an increase pension age. and increase in the pension age. and you— increase in the pension age. and you know.—

increase in the pension age. and you know. rooo— increase in the pension age. and you know, let's be— increase in the pension age. and you know, let's be blunt, poopro-o— you know, let's be blunt, people's health starts, starts to deteriorate— people's health starts, starts to deteriorate really when they get to deteriorate really when they pop ro— to deteriorate really when they pop ro ooumo— to deteriorate really when they get to around their 60s. i think moor— get to around their 60s. i think moor poopro— get to around their 60s. i think moor poopro oo— get to around their 60s. i think most people are reasonably fit omo— most people are reasonably fit omo poorrpy— most people are reasonably fit and healthy and— most people are reasonably fit and healthy and can function in and healthy and can function in o mormor— and healthy and can function in o mormor ooy— and healthy and can function in o pormor ooy up— and healthy and can function in a normal way up until about rporr— a normal way up until about rporr peo— a normal way up until about their 50s. and— a normal way up until about their 505. and it— a normal way up until about their 50s. and it tends to be wpop— their 50s. and it tends to be upop rpoy— their 50s. and it tends to be wpop rpoy oor— their 50s. and it tends to be when they get to— their 50s. and it tends to be when they get to their 60s, that poorm— when they get to their 60s, that health concerns— when they get to their 60s, that health concerns and fitness concerns start— health concerns and fitness concerns start really kick concerns start really to kick in. concerns start really to kick rp. —poopro- concerns start really to kick rm—poopro oroi concerns start really to kick- in._people are told in. and if those people are told ooruorry— in. and if those people are told ooruorry youo— in. and if those people are told actually you've got to work ropoor— actually you've got to work longer before _ actually you've got to work longer before you can get a poporop— longer before you can get a pension-they're- longer before you can get a pension they're not able to, pension and they're not able to, we're—thousands. pension and they're not able to,j we're—thousands of we're going to see thousands of poopro— we're going to see thousands of people impoverishment people in impoverishment poroprrorry.— people in impoverishment potentially. and that's something _ potentially. and that's something avoid. something we need to avoid. pour— something we need to avoid. pour-pooo— something we need to avoid. pour-pooo ro- something we need to avoid. paul-need to think- something we need to avoid. i paul-need to think about paul we do need to think about the sustainability of the public finance does the sustainability of the public fina state does the sustainability of the public finastate pension does the sustainability of the public finastate pension cost does the sustainability of the public finastate pension cost us does the sustainability of the public finastate pension cost us every; the state pension cost us every year? billion? yeah, year? 100 billion? yeah, i think it's over. and that's the it's just over. and that's the porpr. — it's just over. and that's the porpr. lof— it's just over. and that's the point. .of course- it's just over. and that's the point..of course it- c and that's the point. of course it would be point. so of course it would be rovory— point. so of course it would be rovory rp— point. so of course it would be lovely if.could_ point. so of course it would be lovely if.could all- point. so of course it would be lovely if could all retire at lovely if we could all retire at rpo— lovely if we could all retire at rpo ooo— lovely if we could all retire at rpo ooo or— lovely if we could all retire at rpo ooo of po— lovely if we could all retire at the age of 50 or— lovely if we could all retire at the age of 50 or let's say 60 andr— the age of 50 or let's say 60 opo. you— the age of 50 or let's say 60 opo. you rpoy.— the age of 50 or let's say 60 and, you know, be- the age of 50 or let's say 60 and, you know, be completely oomrorropro— and, you know, be completely comfortable on— and, you know, be completely comfortable on on money. the pooro— comfortable on on money. the sroro ro— comfortable on on money. the sroro ro giving— comfortable on on money. the state is giving us.— comfortable on on money. the state is giving us. but if you opoo— state is giving us. but if you oroo wom— state is giving us. but if you also want other— state is giving us. but if you also want other public services, if also want other public services, rr you— also want other public services, rr you wom— also want other public services, rr you wopr o— also want other public services, if you want a health service, if you— if you want a health service, if you wom— if you want a health service, if you wopr op— if you want a health service, if you want an education system, if you want an education system, if you wom— you want an education system, if you wopr pooo— you want an education system, if you want good transport, if you popo— you want good transport, if you wopr oooo— you want good transport, if you want good robust— you want good transport, if you want good robust defence force, rpop— want good robust defence force, rpop you— want good robust defence force, then you actually— want good robust defence force, then you actually have to make

ooororopo— then you actually have to make decisions about— then you actually have to make decisions about how you spend puprro— decisions about how you spend public finances— decisions about how you spend public finances because you oppor— public finances because you orrpor pooo— public finances because you either have to— public finances because you either have to borrow more. and rooo— either have to borrow more. and rooo-ooor— either have to borrow more. and let's-clear, this— either have to borrow more. and let's clear, this year we let's be clear, this year we pro— let's be clear, this year we prop-opopr— let's be clear, this year we will-spent £120- let's be clear, this year we will spent £120 billion will have spent £120 billion poor— will have spent £120 billion ruor op— will have spent £120 billion just on servicing our debt pouo— just on servicing our debt because the— just on servicing our debt because the amount we've pomouoo — because the amount we've pomouoo .— because the amount we've pomouoo . so— because the amount we've borrowed . so you either have to borrowed. so you either have to porou— borrowed. so you either have to pouoo-or— borrowed. so you either have to pouoo-or you— borrowed. so you either have to borrow-or you have- borrowed. so you either have to borrow or you have to put borrow more or you have to put ooroo— borrow more or you have to put roxoo up.— borrow more or you have to put roxoo up. apo— borrow more or you have to put taxes up. and who— borrow more or you have to put taxes up. and who are you purrrpo— taxes up. and who are you purrrpp ooroo— taxes up. and who are you putting taxes up? the working poopro— putting taxes up? the working poopro opo— putting taxes up? the working poopro opo oo— putting taxes up? the working people who are funding. i'll porr— people who are funding. i'll poor—opo- people who are funding. i'll rooo—upo ro- people who are funding. i'll tell—who to puti tell you exactly who to put ooroo— tell you exactly who to put roxoo up— tell you exactly who to put taxes up because you need to. i wom— taxes up because you need to. i pom ro— taxes up because you need to. i pom ro oor— taxes up because you need to. i pom ro pm you— taxes up because you need to. i want to ask you to— taxes up because you need to. i want to ask you to find- taxes up because you need to. i want to ask you to find 100- want to ask you to find 100 billion of taxable one. now, i want to ask you, we- 1 cir" now, i want to ask you, we should be rrorrpp— want to ask you, we should be rrorrpo pro— want to ask you, we should be rioting like the— want to ask you, we should be rioting like the french, but r-rr— rioting like the french, but or pop— rioting like the french, but or or you— rioting like the french, but i'll let you have your piece on pro. — i'll let you have your piece on pro. uoo— i'll let you have your piece on pro. upo yor- — i'll let you have your piece on this. not yet. well,- i'll let you have your piece on this. \rrt:r «mt. well, no, i'll let you have your piece on this. \ «mt. well, no, i don't this. not yet. well, no, i don't porrovo— this. not yet. well, no, i don't porrovo rp— this. not yet. well, no, i don't believe in writing— this. not yet. well, no, i don't believe in writing at— this. \ «mt. well, no, i don't believe in writing at all. i poor.— believe in writing at all. i mean, look, a— believe in writing at all. i mean, look, a wealth tax on the rich— mean, look, a wealth tax on the prop. o— mean, look, a wealth tax on the prop. o ooorm— mean, look, a wealth tax on the rich, a wealth tax— mean, look, a wealth tax on the rich, a wealth tax on the 1% of rpo— rich, a wealth tax on the 1% of rpo rropoor— rich, a wealth tax on the 1% of the richest people— rich, a wealth tax on the 1% of the richest people in this oouprry— the richest people in this country would- the richest people in this- country would-billions, country would bring in billions, in country would bring in billions, rp-po— country would bring in billions, rp-po oppo— country would bring in billions, in-be able to- country would bring in billions, in-be able to fund- country would bring in billions, in be able to fund our in fact, to be able to fund our puprro— in fact, to be able to fund our public services— in fact, to be able to fund our public services and give people a public services and give people o—rp— public services and give people a_in retirement. a decent pension in retirement. why— a decent pension in retirement. wpy—rox- a decent pension in retirement. wpy—rox op- a decent pension in retirement. wpy—rox op rpo| why not a windfall tax on the popro— why not a windfall tax on the popro-oro— why not a windfall tax on the banks are currently making banks which are currently making puoo— banks which are currently making puoo-oo— banks which are currently making puoo-oo-or- banks which are currently making puoo-oo-or rpol huge profits as a result of the roo— huge profits as a result of the rp— huge profits as a result of the rise in interest— huge profits as a result of the rise in interest rates, old and urooo — rise in interest rates, old and wise? -students?. rise in interest rates, old and. wise? -students? this rise in interest rates, old and- wise? -students? this is wise? why not students? this is nothing. there's nothing wise opour— nothing. there's nothing wise opour-uo-ro— nothing. there's nothing wise about-we're hearing- 3 there's nothing wise about we're hearing here. about what we're hearing here. r-m — about what we're hearing here. r-m sorry.— about what we're hearing here. r-m sorry. pur— about what we're hearing here. i'm sorry, but that's— about what we're hearing here. i'm sorry, but that's about- i'm sorry, but that's about what's about attacks the what's about attacks on the record excess and

record profits, the excess and unexpected the unexpected profits in the country, record profits country, on the record profits at of our corporations are at some of our corporations are registering moment. registering at the moment. okay. when they leave, it will be who are taxed more. be you and i who are taxed more. and then. exactly. they could be poromo— and then. exactly. they could be pororpo rpo— and then. exactly. they could be holding the country— holding the country to a urpororr— holding the country to a windfall tax— holding the country to a windfall tax is a one off tax by oorrprrrop— windfall tax is a one off tax by definition then. _ windfall tax is a one off tax by definition then. ”rt; definition then. but you're talking about increasing a pension which is a pension in billions, which is a billions. need 100 billion billions. you need 100 billion extra year be able to fund extra a year to be able to fund this. a windfall tax doesn't even the edges of that this. a windfall tax doesn't even you're e edges of that this. a windfall tax doesn't even you're goingzs of that this. a windfall tax doesn't even you're going to )f that this. a windfall tax doesn't even you're going to havet unless you're going to have a windfall tax every year, which no tax. if no longer is a windfall tax. if we non—dom status, which we scrap non—dom status, which will get you live at five, that's merely one that's merely one option out suite of one option out of a suite of options, which would bring billions wealth or billions of take your wealth or your take your wealth tax. your your take your wealth tax. so other countries have tried this. we're going this. they've said we're going to a% to% on people to put, say, a% to% on people who are who have a certain amount of wealth. and what most countries found it countries have found is it doesn't work. think we doesn't work. and i think we should be better at taxing doesn't work. and i think we should butretter at taxing doesn't work. and i think we should but your at taxing doesn't work. and i think we should but you can'tixing doesn't work. and i think we should but you can't just have wealth. but you can't just have a generic tax. it doesn't a generic wealth tax. it doesn't get the money because much get the money because so much wealth so what you'll wealth is mobile. so what you'll end doing is you'll end up end up doing is you'll end up taxing in fact, probably taxing people. in fact, probably the pensioners that are

the 1 in 4 pensioners that are millionaires right now, you'll probably up taxing people probably end up taxing people who got assets. so who have got immobile assets. so basically people are doing basically people who are doing earning this country basically people who are doing earthe this country basically people who are doing earthe pay this country basically people who are doing earthe pay system,|is country basically people who are doing earthe pay system, which ntry basically people who are doing earthe pay system, which isn't via the pay system, which isn't most people , let's face it, most rich people, let's face it, very people or people with very rich people or people with property. what about those property. but what about those people who've spending their people who've spending all their money art or money on very fine art or collectable wines and jewellery and like that? you can't and things like that? you can't track .7 of course, sees it from track? of course, sees it from rporr— track? of course, sees it from rporr popoo— track? of course, sees it from rporr popoo .— track? of course, sees it from their hands , but— track? of course, sees it from their hands , but it's- t7 of course, sees it from their hands , but it's just it's their hands, but it's just it's ouop— their hands, but it's just it's ouop o— their hands, but it's just it's ouop o roo— their hands, but it's just it's such a it's such— their hands, but it's just it's such a it's such a simplest orror. — such a it's such a simplest orror. rou— such a it's such a simplest stick. you know,- such a it's such a simplest stick. you know, we hear this all the time. just have a wealth tax. you absolutely can be smarter on taxing property. we've a really regressive we've got a really regressive system property. we system for taxing property. we could but could raise more money, but you're going to get no where close taxing wealth. very close via taxing wealth. very alert. with vested alert. those with vested interests, particularly the rich, shout down the rich, will always shout down the idea wealth because idea of a wealth tax because they we'll just move. they say, no, we'll just move. i'm very rich. no, we'll i'm not very rich. no, no, we'll just abroad . no, you know, just move abroad. no, you know, we'll our money we'll take we'll take our money out the country that to me is out of the country that to me is holding country to rac . holding the country to rac. sadly, i wish i'd never learned holding the country to rac. sadlaccusation. iever learned holding the country to rac. sadlaccusation. iwish.earned holding the country to rac. sadlaccusation. i wish itirned holding the country to rac. sadlaccusation. i wish it wasi that accusation. i wish it was as that accusation. i wish it was oo ormpro— that accusation. i wish it was oo ormpro oo— that accusation. i wish it was as simple as that.— that accusation. i wish it was as simple as that. but- tt cir" i wish it was as simple as that. but control ooprror— as simple as that. but control ooprror op— as simple as that. but control ooprror op rpo— as simple as that. but control capital on the pensions , though, capital on the pensions, though, aorrop— capital on the pensions, though,

aorrop ooyo— capital on the pensions, though, adrian says, emily,— capital on the pensions, though, adrian says, emily, we should be orrouoo— adrian says, emily, we should be allowed-retire— adrian says, emily, we should be allowed-retire at— adrian says, emily, we should be allowed retire at 65. make allowed to retire at 65. make way— allowed to retire at 65. make ooy—poopro- allowed to retire at 65. make ooy—poopro opo| allowed to retire at 65. make- way_people and those way for younger people and those that way for younger people and those opoo—pooroo- way for younger people and those that—worked 68- way for younger people and those that—worked 68 or- that have never worked 68 or ro— that have never worked 68 or ro ro— that have never worked 68 or even 70 is too— that have never worked 68 or even 70 is too long to work. for rpooo— even 70 is too long to work. for rpooo prop— even 70 is too long to work. for those with manual— even 70 is too long to work. for those with manual heavy jobs, pooro— those with manual heavy jobs, rorrro opo— those with manual heavy jobs, retire and-it.— those with manual heavy jobs, retire and-it. not- those with manual heavy jobs, retire and it. not when retire and enjoy it. not when youo— retire and enjoy it. not when you-ro—yourl retire and enjoy it. not when. you-ro—your pox. you're about to go in your box. pooro.— you're about to go in your box. poor. for— you're about to go in your box. well, fair point. _ you're about to go in your box. well, fair point. fair point moro— well, fair point. fair point there .adrian- well, fair point. fair point there .adrian to there from adrian coming up to just— there from adrian coming up to ruor prop— there from adrian coming up to ruor orop orp— there from adrian coming up to just stop oil activists who prooroo— just stop oil activists who blocked dartford crossing blocked the dartford crossing pooo— blocked the dartford crossing pooo-ro— blocked the dartford crossing pooo-ro porr- blocked the dartford crossing have-to jail for- blocked the dartford crossing have to jail for more have are sent to jail for more rpop— have are sent to jail for more rpop proo— have are sent to jail for more than five years. _ have are sent to jail for more than five years. in total . is than five years. in total. is opoo— than five years. in total. is opoo roo— than five years. in total. is that too harsh— than five years. in total. is that too harsh or is it fair or pop— that too harsh or is it fair or pop opouop— that too harsh or is it fair or pop opoupp .—

this is dewbs& co with me, emily cowor— this is dewbs& co with me, emily coryor. keeping— this is dewbs& co with me, emily carver, keeping me— this is dewbs& co with me, emily carver, keeping me company this ovoprpo— carver, keeping me company this ovoprpo oo— carver, keeping me company this evening as charlotte pickles orrooror— evening as charlotte pickles orrooror or— evening as charlotte pickles director of the— evening as charlotte pickles director of the reform think popp— director of the reform think ropr. opo— director of the reform think tank, and paul— director of the reform think tank, and paul embery , author, tank, and paul embery, author, rrromop— tank, and paul embery, author, rrromop opo— tank, and paul embery, author, firemen and trade unionists . so firemen and trade unionists. so to just— firemen and trade unionists. so to ruor prop— firemen and trade unionists. so to ruor orop orp— firemen and trade unionists. so to just stop oil activists, the opo— to just stop oil activists, the ones who blocked the dartford orooorpo— ones who blocked the dartford orooorpo por— ones who blocked the dartford crossing for almost two days pooo— crossing for almost two days povo po— crossing for almost two days have now been— crossing for almost two days have now been sentenced to a ooroo— have now been sentenced to a pro or— have now been sentenced to a pro or proo— have now been sentenced to a total of five and— have now been sentenced to a total of five and a— have now been sentenced to a total of five and a half years in total of five and a half years m for. — total of five and a half years in jail. between— total of five and a half years in jail. between them, 40 year old in jail. between them, 40 year oro poorom— in jail. between them, 40 year old morgan rowland will serve

rproo— old morgan rowland will serve rproo yoo — old morgan rowland will serve three years, while— old morgan rowland will serve three years, while 34 year old rrorouo— three years, while 34 year old marcus dekker— three years, while 34 year old marcus dekker will serve two yooro— marcus dekker will serve two yooro opo— marcus dekker will serve two years and seven— marcus dekker will serve two years and seven months. the judge— years and seven months. the ruopo mooo— years and seven months. the judge made clear— years and seven months. the judge made clear the prison rormo— judge made clear the prison terms were intended as a ooromopr— terms were intended as a deterrent to _ terms were intended as a deterrent to stop others from copying _ deterrent to stop others from oopyrpo rpo — deterrent to stop others from copying the stunt . charlotte, do copying the stunt. charlotte, do you rprpr— copying the stunt. charlotte, do you rprpr rpro— copying the stunt. charlotte, do you think this sentence will oropo— you think this sentence will oropo ouoo— you think this sentence will oropo ruor orop— you think this sentence will stop? just stop all protesters mom— stop? just stop all protesters mom rorrpo— stop? just stop all protesters from taking this— stop? just stop all protesters from taking this kind of action? i from taking this kind of action? r moop— from taking this kind of action? r you— from taking this kind of action? i mean, you certainly have to be rporoorpry— i mean, you certainly have to be incredibly committed to the ro— incredibly committed to the cause to accept— incredibly committed to the cause to accept three years in prroop— cause to accept three years in prroop oo— cause to accept three years in prroop oo rpo— cause to accept three years in prison as the result. i mean, rm— prison as the result. i mean, r-m peony— prison as the result. i mean, i'm really torn on this one. i genuinely am not sure what i think because is on the one hand, i mean, i don't think you should be able to shut a main bndge should be able to shut a main bridge for 40 hours, back up traffic . you know, the economic traffic. you know, the economic impact, the human impact. i mean, i think we've heard there was a heavily pregnant woman , was a heavily pregnant woman, someone who couldn't get to the funeral her best friend as funeral of her best friend as a result of this. so, you know, the cost of doing this is huge. and not like just and it's not like blocking just a single you know, when a single road, you know, when it's a bridge, you know, there are not there are limited ways you get writing is

you can get across. writing is quite, quite a major, major piece so piece of infrastructure. so on the hand, i kind of think the one hand, i kind of think good for the judge. like we can't and we have can't have this and we have seen, know, so much of it. seen, you know, so much of it. if you think about the blocking, the motorways, etcetera. erg on the motorways, etcetera. erg on the hand, quite the other hand, there quite serious jail sentences is when you some of the you think about some of the crimes that about that crimes that we hear about that get either a similar tariff or less than that. so i do think that i'm slightly uncomfortable with the idea that somehow like that could could end . you could that could could end. you could you could end up with a tougher sentence for that. then you could for, you know, violence or something. it's interesting you say something. it's interesting you ooy opoo— something. it's interesting you say that because,— something. it's interesting you say that because, of- 3 it's interesting you say that because, of course, moro— say that because, of course, rporo ooro— say that because, of course, there were 100— say that because, of course, there were 100 or- say that because, of course, there were 100 or so lawyers who orppoo— there were 100 or so lawyers who oropoo oomo— there were 100 or so lawyers who signed some kind— there were 100 or so lawyers who signed some kind of declaration of consciousness— signed some kind of declaration of consciousness or consciousness, whatever they oorroo— consciousness, whatever they oorroo p,— consciousness, whatever they called it, conscience us saying opoo— called it, conscience us saying opoo rpoy— called it, conscience us saying that they would _ called it, conscience us saying that they would not prosecute eco protesters.— that they would not prosecute eco protesters. perhaps this judge,— eco protesters. perhaps this ruopo. ro— eco protesters. perhaps this judge, it seems— eco protesters. perhaps this judge, it seems very likely this judge— judge, it seems very likely this ruopo ooor— judge, it seems very likely this ruopo roor o— judge, it seems very likely this ruopo roor o yory— judge, it seems very likely this judge took a very different view and judge took a very different view opo rpouopr— judge took a very different view and thought actually, he said prmoorr— and thought actually, he said prmoorr .— and thought actually, he said prmoorr . you— and thought actually, he said himself, you have to be punished for rpo— himself, you have to be punished for rpo opooo— himself, you have to be punished for the chaos you—

himself, you have to be punished for the chaos you caused to and ooroo— for the chaos you caused to and ooror orporo— for the chaos you caused to and deter others from _ for the chaos you caused to and deter others from copying you . deter others from copying you. rpro— deter others from copying you. no ro— deter others from copying you. this is clearly— deter others from copying you. this is clearly to— deter others from copying you. this is clearly to set an oxompro— this is clearly to set an ooompro .— this is clearly to set an ooompro . o— this is clearly to set an example , a strong example that example, a strong example that you cop-r— example, a strong example that you oop-r oor— example, a strong example that you oop-r ooo owoy— example, a strong example that you can't get away with this orum— you can't get away with this stuff anymore. _ you can't get away with this stuff anymore. yeah. and the purp— stuff anymore. yeah. and the pup ro— stuff anymore. yeah. and the pup ro oo— stuff anymore. yeah. and the truth is, as charlie said, poopro— truth is, as charlie said, poopro opo— truth is, as charlie said, people who are walking free, who povo — people who are walking free, who povo poop— people who are walking free, who have been convicted of crimes far have been convicted of crimes for rpop— have been convicted of crimes far worse than what these individuals— far worse than what these individuals did— far worse than what these individuals did , these people individuals did, these people are individuals did, these people o porp— individuals did, these people o porp rp— individuals did, these people are a pain in the— individuals did, these people are a pain in the backside by rpo— are a pain in the backside by rpo ooy. — are a pain in the backside by rpo ooy. r— are a pain in the backside by the way. i mean,- are a pain in the backside by the way. i mean, i- are a pain in the backside by the way. t“ ”rt:rtittyr are a pain in the backside by the way. t“ "catty the way. i mean, i really lost my rag when they disrupted the snooker last week. i mean, that was that was the straw that was the that was the straw the red line. that was the straw that can. you can that broke the can. you can close dartford tunnel. the close the dartford tunnel. the main around london. but main artery around london. but if disrupt the if you're going to disrupt the snooken if you're going to disrupt the snooker, is pretty much, snooker, which is pretty much, you know, they wear bow ties, but much working you know, they wear bow ties, but sport. much working you know, they wear bow ties, but sport. and uch working you know, they wear bow ties, but sport. and obviously, ing you know, they wear bow ties, but sport. and obviously, most class sport. and obviously, most of these protesters are middle class graduates. class university graduates. and it me that they're it just seems to me that they're constantly targeting the wrong people people constantly targeting the wrong peopthem. people constantly targeting the wrong peopthem. mean, people constantly targeting the wrong peopthem. mean, as people constantly targeting the wrong peopthem. mean, as aaople constantly targeting the wrong peopthem. mean, as a asrle with them. i mean, as a as a trade unionist, i've been involved in quite a few campaigns myself where you're trying public and trying to win public support and you employ tactics that you have to employ tactics that actually people with you. actually take people with you. and almost if this group and it's almost as if this group has infiltrate sleeper has been infiltrate by sleeper agents deliberately has been infiltrate by sleeper agentsto deliberately has been infiltrate by sleeper agentsto turn deliberately has been infiltrate by sleeper agentsto turn thezliberately has been infiltrate by sleeper

agentsto turn the public ely trying to turn the public against them. i mean, that said, as i said, i the sentence as i said, i think the sentence is probably are a bit stiff, but it deserved a custodial sentence because you can't continue doing this people's this stuff, disrupting people's lives them not to lives and expecting them not to be any. it's interesting you say rpro— be any. it's interesting you say rpro pouo— be any. it's interesting you say this because it— 5.1, it's interesting you say this because it seems my this because it seems like my rorroworo— this because it seems like my followers are _ this because it seems like my followers are more authority orrvop— followers are more authority mop-rpo.- followers are more authority driven-two. i- followers are more authority driven two. i tweeted followers are more authority driven three two. i tweeted followers are more authority driven three years. i tweeted followers are more authority driven three years was/eeted followers are more authority driven three years was whether whether three years was whether rproo— whether three years was whether rproo yooro— whether three years was whether three years excessive three years was excessive pupropmopr— three years was excessive punishment or- three years was excessive punishment or necessary punishment or a necessary ooromopr. — punishment or a necessary deterrent. and— punishment or a necessary deterrent. and a lot of people ooro— deterrent. and a lot of people ooro ro— deterrent. and a lot of people said it should— deterrent. and a lot of people said it should have been more. i mooo— said it should have been more. i mooo my— said it should have been more. i mooo my ooy.— said it should have been more. i made my day. three cheers for rpo— made my day. three cheers for rpo ruooo. — made my day. three cheers for rpo ruopo. po-o— made my day. three cheers for the judge. he's obviously one of us. the judge. he's obviously one of poorom— the judge. he's obviously one of us. excellent. as— the judge. he's obviously one of us. excellent. as he likes poromo— us. excellent. as he likes porppro oo— us. excellent. as he likes heights so-he- us. excellent. as he likes heights so he can be us. excellent. as he likes heights so-he can be to heights so much he can be put to work— heights so much he can be put to work op— heights so much he can be put to work op-prroop— heights so much he can be put to work on-prison roof- heights so much he can be put to work on prison roof and left work on the prison roof and left moro— work on the prison roof and left rporo. arr— work on the prison roof and left there. all sorts— work on the prison roof and left there. all sorts comments there. all sorts of comments rrro— there. all sorts of comments pro—poopro- there. all sorts of commentsi like—people found there. all sorts of comments. like—people found it like this. some people found it purpo— like this. some people found it ourro omuopp— like this. some people found it quite amusing, which i can rmoorpo— quite amusing, which i can rmoorpo .— quite amusing, which i can imagine . robin— quite amusing, which i can imagine. robin right. well, opry— imagine. robin right. well, opry por— imagine. robin right. well, we've only got a couple of mrpuroo— we've only got a couple of minutes left,— we've only got a couple of minutes left, so- we've only got a couple of minutes left, so i'm going go minutes left, so i'm going to go oororopr— minutes left, so i'm going to go oororoprlrpo— minutes left, so i'm going to go straight the cyclists because straight to the cyclists because rooo— straight to the cyclists because rooo-pooo— straight to the cyclists because lots - have - getting i straight to the cyclists becausei lots - have - getting in lots of you have been getting in rouop— lots of you have been getting in romp—rpoy- lots of you have been getting ini touch _they should touch about whether they should pooo— touch about whether they should povolpovo— touch about whether they should have i have - plates. - have to have number plates. you rpoy.— have to have number plates. you rpoy. rp— have to have number plates. you rpoy. rp-oooo— have to have number plates. you know, in-case of— have to have number plates. you know, in case of collisions know, in the case of collisions or oopporouo— know, in the case of collisions or dangerous cycling . paul, or dangerous cycling. paul, opoo-o— or dangerous cycling. paul, opoo-o your— or dangerous cycling. paul, what's your view? “rtt: what's your view? yes, i think they should. i think that cyclists can be a menace, not all of them. before people start writing in, but some of them can

be a menace. i mean, the machines these days go so fast they pedal furiously if they impact someone, they can kill, they can maim, they can cause serious injury, and often they're riding the pavements, they're riding on the pavements, which there which i think should be there should a serious sanction should be a serious sanction for people that. so three people who do that. so three years in people who do that. so three yooro rp prroop— people who do that. so three years in prison-that. - people who do that. so three years in prison-that. it. years in prison for that. it ro. r— years in prison for that. it seems to. i go— years in prison for that. it seems to. i go for- years in prison for that. it seems to. i go for ten- seems to. i go for ten personally, it seems to me that if you're if you're riding one of machines, has got of these machines, which has got the to cause the real potential to cause harm, then there's no reason why it shouldn't be licenced. i don't charlotte. imean, it shouldn't be licenced. i don't charlotte. i mean, i don't think charlotte. i mean, i think that is a— don't think charlotte. i mean, i think that is a reasonable- think that is a reasonable poorrrop.— think that is a reasonable position,-and,. think that is a reasonable position, and, you position, actually. and, you rpoy.— position, actually. and, you opoo—rooo.- position, actually. and, you know,_fact, not know, i myself, in fact, not popo— know, i myself, in fact, not long-and— know, i myself, in fact, not long-andlfact,- know, i myself, in fact, not long and fact, when the long ago and in fact, when the rupo— long ago and in fact, when the rum—op.- long ago and in fact, when the tube _on, which i long ago and in fact, when thei tube _on, which we tube strikes were on, which we wop-r— tube strikes were on, which we your-pur— tube strikes were on, which we wop-r-pur r- tube strikes were on, which we won't-but i let's- won't get into, but i let's poo-o— won't get into, but i let's ror-o oor— won't get into, but i let's let's get into— won't get into, but i let's let's get into that that'd be a pup— let's get into that that'd be a fun .wouldn't_ let's get into that that'd be a fun .wouldn't it?- let's get into that that'd be a fun wouldn't it? but you fun one, wouldn't it? but you rpoy.— fun one, wouldn't it? but you rpoy. r— fun one, wouldn't it? but you know, i found— fun one, wouldn't it? but you know, i found myself a long walk rprouop— know, i found myself a long walk through london— know, i found myself a long walk through london trying to to through london trying to get to poporo— through london trying to get to opoo-ro— through london trying to get to wporo-ro po- through london trying to get to where-to go and- through london trying to get to where to go and went to where i needed to go and went to opoo-ro— where i needed to go and went to orooo-rr woo— where i needed to go and went to orooo-rr o— where i needed to go and went to cross-it was a-light. cross a road. it was a red light for rpo— cross a road. it was a red light for rpo ooro— cross a road. it was a red light for the cars and— cross a road. it was a red light for the cars and a— cross a road. it was a red light for the cars and a cyclist came oororopr— for the cars and a cyclist came straight through— for the cars and a cyclist came straight through and luckily poop-r— straight through and luckily wp-oor oomo— straight through and luckily wasn't going fast but hit me coming— wasn't going fast but hit me coming could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i mean could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i mean . could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i mean . well, could wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i mean . well, do :ould wasn't going fast but hit me corharmed. i mean . well, do youi be harmed. i mean. well, do you rpoy— be harmed. i mean. well, do you rpoy opoo?— be harmed. i mean. well, do you know what?icould_ be harmed. i mean. well, do you know what? could palmed know what? i could have palmed mm.— know what? i could have palmed prm.—you- know what? i could have palmed prm.—you rpoy.- him. i could have, you know. puo.— him. i could have, you know. our pur— him. i could have, you know. but. but nothing— him. i could have, you know. but. but nothing happened. but you oo—

but. but nothing happened. but you oo ouoo— but. but nothing happened. but you oo ruor oom— but. but nothing happened. but you do just sort of— but. but nothing happened. but you do just sort of think rporo-o— you do just sort of think rporo-o o— you do just sort of think there's a kind- you do just sort of think there's a kind of attitude with oyorroro— there's a kind of attitude with some cyclists they of some cyclists that they sort of own-prooo. — some cyclists that they sort of own-prooo. so— some cyclists that they sort of own-place. so i- some cyclists that they sort of own place. so i think own the place. so i think there is own the place. so i think there ro oomorprpo— own the place. so i think there is something-that. - own the place. so i think there is something that. but, you is something in that. but, you rpoy.— is something in that. but, you opoo-r— is something in that. but, you know,_l prioritise- is something in that. but, you know, i prioritise it as know, would i prioritise it as oomorprpo— know, would i prioritise it as something that— know, would i prioritise it as something that wanted to make something that i wanted to make law something that i wanted to make row propopry— something that i wanted to make law probably not. _ something that i wanted to make law probably not. �*tfo�*rt1t law probably not. well, let's ooo—ro- law probably not. well, let's see to say. see what people have to say. bnan see what people have to say. brian cyclists should brian says cyclists should be required registered. have required to be registered. have a warning buzzer lights a warning bell, buzzer lights and clothing . yes, and wear hi viz clothing. yes, perhaps that should be a bare minimum cycling. although minimum for cycling. although imagine in the country, including when they're on including when they're not on the the way, imagining, the bike by the way, imagining, imagining countryside though imagining the countryside though if were, you're if you were, you know you're just getting your bike and just getting on your bike and you register get you have to register and get a number and all sorts, number plate and all sorts, perhaps this could just be for now. i prefer a city. i prefer to ban in the countryside to ban them in the countryside because get stuck behind because you get stuck behind a cyclist on country road that cyclist on a country road that should and peter should be illegal. and peter says number plates and insurance policing and stopping cyclists for and for being on pavements and ignonng for being on pavements and ignoring lights would be for being on pavements and igstart.) lights would be for being on pavements and igstart. well, lights would be for being on pavements and igstart. well, that hts would be for being on pavements and igstart. well, that is; would be for being on pavements and igstart. well, that is allyuld be for being on pavements and igstart. well, that is all we've; a start. well, that is all we've got time for this evening. thank you in dewbs & co you for tuning in to dewbs& co with me. emily michelle with me. emily carver, michelle dewberry on monday dewberry will be back on monday evening. you tomorrow evening. i'll see you tomorrow on saturday, five p.m. but on saturday, five at 8 pm. but next up, we have got the magnificent laurence fox . hello

magnificent laurence fox. hello there. i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest broadcast from the met office. the weekend is from the met office. the weekend ro ooormo— from the met office. the weekend ro roorrpp rorrry— spirit o” tot; the weekend is looking fairly unsettled. we pror— is looking fairly unsettled. we wrrr ooo— is looking fairly unsettled. we will see some— is looking fairly unsettled. we will see some heavy showers, ropoor— will see some heavy showers, roppor oporro— will see some heavy showers, longer spells of— will see some heavy showers, longer spells of rain, but i'm poporur— longer spells of rain, but i'm hopeful there'll_ longer spells of rain, but i'm hopeful there'll be some sunny oporro— hopeful there'll be some sunny spells. between. _ hopeful there'll be some sunny spells between. but it is spells in between. but it is going—cool. going to be rather cool, porrrourorry— going to be rather cool, particularly by end of the particularly by the end of the wooropo— particularly by the end of the weekend-the— particularly by the end of the weekend the beginning weekend into the beginning of poor—rpo- weekend into the beginning of. poor—rpo bigger next week. looking at the bigger poouoo.— next week. looking at the bigger poouoo—ro- picture, low pressure is ooyoroprpp— picture, low pressure is developing charge picture, low pressure is- developing-charge of the developing and in charge of the woorpor— developing and in charge of the woorpor oo— developing and in charge of the weather as we _ developing and in charge of the weather as we move through the pooropo— weather as we move through the pooropo-rpo— weather as we move through the weekend the beginning weekend and into the beginning of weekend and into the beginning oi_iusi_ weekend and into the beginning of_just slides- weekend and into the beginning of just slides away, of next week. just slides away, orrowrpo— of next week. just slides away, orrowrpp o— of next week. just slides away, allowing a colder— of next week. just slides away, allowing a colder northerly air to allowing a colder northerly air ro oovorop— allowing a colder northerly air to develop across— allowing a colder northerly air to develop across the country rpro— to develop across the country rpro ovoprpo— to develop across the country rpro ovoprpo .— to develop across the country this evening . cloudy across the this evening. cloudy across the compo— this evening. cloudy across the central swathe_ this evening. cloudy across the central swathe of— this evening. cloudy across the central swathe of the uk into rpo— central swathe of the uk into rpo oorry— central swathe of the uk into the early hours.— central swathe of the uk into the early hours. some heavy rain pooorpro— the early hours. some heavy rain possible-times,— the early hours. some heavy rain possible times, either side possible at times, either side of possible at times, either side or pro— possible at times, either side of this drier— possible at times, either side of this drier with— possible at times, either side of this drier with some clear oporro— of this drier with some clear oporro|oomo— of this drier with some clear spellsisome-and- of this drier with some clear spells some and fog spells, some mist and fog poropoo— spells, some mist and fog patches across— spells, some mist and fog- patches across-england patches across southern england .-moor— patches across southern england .-moor upoor— patches across southern england .-frost under the- . touch of frost under the ooororr— . touch of frost under the clearer spells— . touch of frost under the clearer spells temperatures clearer spells, but temperatures poromo— clearer spells, but temperatures pororpo—orouoyl clearer spells, but temperaturesl holding—cloudy and holding up where it's cloudy and ropy— holding up where it's cloudy and rorpy. rooo— holding up where it's cloudy and rorpy. rowo or— holding up where it's cloudy and rorpy. rooo of o— holding up where it's cloudy and rainy, lows of 6 or— holding up where it's cloudy and rainy, lows of 6 or 7— holding up where it's cloudy and rainy, lows of 6 or 7 degrees poro— rainy, lows of 6 or 7 degrees poro. mrpuo— rainy, lows of 6 or 7 degrees here, minus one— rainy, lows of 6 or 7 degrees here, minus one and minus two upoor— here, minus one and minus two upoor rpooo— here, minus one and minus two under those clear— here, minus one and minus two under those clear spells. but it propr— under those clear spells. but it means bright start for some across southern— means bright start for some across southern areas . a few across southern areas. a few mror— across southern areas. a few mror-roo— across southern areas. a few mist-fog patches- across southern areas. a few mist fog patches quickly mist and fog patches quickly ooormo.— mist and fog patches quickly opooppo—roppl clearing. and it's not long, momm— clearing. and it's not long, though,-further- clearing. and it's not long, though, further cloud though, before further cloud and opowory—rpro- showery rain pushes into oourpom— showery rain pushes into southern parts of england.

wprror— southern parts of england. whilst northern ireland, sourpom— whilst northern ireland, southern scotland, northern rporopo— southern scotland, northern england having a cloudy day. purprooro— england having a cloudy day. outbreaks _another outbreaks of rain here. another ouppy— outbreaks of rain here. another sunny—scotland - outbreaks of rain here. another sunny—scotland ,. sunny day across scotland, rpouop— sunny day across scotland, rpouop-or— sunny day across scotland, rpouop-or p- sunny day across scotland, though of 17 celsius though highs of 17 celsius roworoo— though highs of 17 celsius towards the— though highs of 17 celsius towards the north—west there. rroowporo — towards the north—west there. elsewhere will— towards the north—west there. elsewhere will generally see the mid elsewhere will generally see the mo roopo— elsewhere will generally see the mo roopo .— elsewhere will generally see the mid teens . then— elsewhere will generally see the mid teens . then into the evening mid teens. then into the evening omo— mid teens. then into the evening rrmo .— mid teens. then into the evening rrmo . purpor— mid teens. then into the evening time , further showery rain time, further showery rain puopoo— time, further showery rain puopoo pomp— time, further showery rain pushes north across much of the oouppry— pushes north across much of the oouprry. rpo— pushes north across much of the country. the wind— pushes north across much of the country. the wind starting to prop— country. the wind starting to prop up— country. the wind starting to prop up oorooo— country. the wind starting to pick up across northern pooromo.— pick up across northern scotland, coming in from a pomporry— scotland, coming in from a northerly direction and popororry— northerly direction and generally with more cloud around and generally with more cloud around opo opowory— generally with more cloud around and showery outbreaks of rain as opoo— and showery outbreaks of rain as opoo row— and showery outbreaks of rain as that low pressure— and showery outbreaks of rain as that low pressure develops rpo— that low pressure develops across the uk,— that low pressure develops across the uk, it means temperatures- across the uk, it means temperatures won't be as low . temperatures won't be as low. worr— temperatures won't be as low. yoo-pr ooo— temperatures won't be as low. we'll see generally minimum rompororuroo— we'll see generally minimum temperatures of— we'll see generally minimum temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so ro— temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so rr oooo— temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so it does mean— temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so it does mean a— temperatures of 4 to 7 degrees. so it does mean a chilly start to so it does mean a chilly start ro supooy.— so it does mean a chilly start to sunday. rather— so it does mean a chilly start to sunday. rather cloudy, though opowory— to sunday. rather cloudy, though showery outbreaks— to sunday. rather cloudy, though showery outbreaks of rain. some of rpo— showery outbreaks of rain. some of rpo rom— showery outbreaks of rain. some of the rain could— showery outbreaks of rain. some of the rain could be heavy at ormoo— of the rain could be heavy at ormoo oo— of the rain could be heavy at ormoo oo ro— of the rain could be heavy at times as it pushes northward rpo— times as it pushes northward across the country. cooler and more unsettled _ across the country. cooler and more unsettled across scotland omor— more unsettled across scotland orror ormoor— more unsettled across scotland after almost a— more unsettled across scotland after almost a week of pure oupoprpo— after almost a week of pure oupoprpo rp— after almost a week of pure sunshine in here— after almost a week of pure sunshine in here and northern rroropo— sunshine in here and northern ireland generally— sunshine in here and northern ireland generally dry with some opooro— ireland generally dry with some opooro poro— ireland generally dry with some showers here and— ireland generally dry with some showers here and temperatures popororry— showers here and temperatures generally feeling _ showers here and temperatures generally feeling a little bit oooorr— generally feeling a little bit cooler. cold— generally feeling a little bit cooler. cold day— generally feeling a little bit cooler. cold day into the beginning— cooler. cold day into the beginning of— cooler. cold day into the beginning of the new working poor.— beginning of the new working week. temperatures below average

propooy— week. temperatures below average nopooy opo— week. temperatures below average monday and tuesday .

well . well. good iron.- good evening iron.— good evening . it is 7:00 and good evening. it is 7:00 and following a spot of delhi belly, i am finally laurence fox again on a friday . first up, i want to on a friday. first up, i want to look at the climate and mental health show for getting out in nature is good for you. but is the constant countdown to destruction doing more harm than good? this climate protest happening this weekend with the potential disrupt the london potential to disrupt the london marathon. i'm talking to an extinction rebellion legend. theni extinction rebellion legend. then i debate this week's news with the fox and the hounds panel with the fox and the hounds panel. i am fox and panel. i am the fox and i welcome to news hounds to digest the resignation of the rumbling