by |5y| late | bvl late. good evening. this is the common sense crusade. with me, emma webb standing in for kelvin robinson your tv online and robinson on your tv online and on radio . so tonight, we will be on radio. so tonight, we will be discussing the new culture forum's annual saint george's day conference and why it is no bad thing to love your country. plus why should the women's institute admit transgender members? and i'll be speaking to an historian about the celebration of saint george. throughout english history. we'll be asking was who was saint george? and coming up in my duel, my panellists will be discussing where we should draw the line when it comes to the right to identify scarlett mccgwire . what do you reckon ? i

mccgwire. what do you reckon? i think the whole thing ”2 20 f“ i think the whole thing about children— think the whole thing about children identifying as different— children identifying as different genders, animals is cake.— different genders, animals is cake. n-s— different genders, animals is cake. n-s ifs— different genders, animals is cake. it's it's just what they do.— cake. it's it's just what they do. and— cake. it's it's just what they do. and we— cake. it's it's just what they do. and we should just leave them — do. and we should just leave them to— do. and we should just leave them to ht— do. and we should just leave them to it and— do. and we should just leave them to it and diwali, what do you— them to it and diwali, what do you thhte — them to it and diwali, what do you thhte ._ them to it and diwali, what do you think? ithink_ them to it and diwali, what do you think? i think if- them to it and diwali, what do you think? �*" you think? i think if people identify in different ways, that's there. but you know, as tome— that's there. but you know, as tome ee— that's there. but you know, as home he they-te— that's there. but you know, as long as they're not— ”t“0;0; but you know, as long as they're not taking “020 but you know, as long as they're not taking away the heme— long as they're not taking away the hehte et— long as they're not taking away the rights of women or affecting ehtttteh— the rights of women or affecting children, thank— the rights of women or affecting children, thank you for your —ttt- children, thank you for your views. _all of. children, thank you for your. views. _all of that, views. but before all of that, let's get the news with ray addison . good afternoon . it's addison. good afternoon. it's 7:00. i'm ray addison in- 7:00. i'm ray addison in the gb newsroom, the— 7:00. i'm ray addison in the gb newsroom, the prime minister has ehehet— newsroom, the prime minister has ehehet eh— newsroom, the prime minister has chaired an emergency cobra meethe— chaired an emergency cobra meethe ee— chaired an emergency cobra meeting as fierce fighting in sheen— meeting as fierce fighting in stem htte— meeting as fierce fighting in sudan hits its— meeting as fierce fighting in sudan hits its second week, eevemmeht— sudan hits its second week, government forces are battling wtth— government forces are battling mm a— government forces are battling with a paramilitary group over eehttet— with a paramilitary group over eehttet et— with a paramilitary group over control of the— with a paramilitary group over control of the capital, khartoum . stem-e— control of the capital, khartoum . sudan's military— control of the capital, khartoum . sudan's military claims teteteh— . sudan's military claims foreign nationals and diplomats , hetuthe— foreign nationals and diplomats , including those— foreign nationals and diplomats , including those from the uk , , including those from the uk, us,— , including those from the uk, us, meme— , including those from the uk, us, france and— , including those from the uk, us, france and china , are to be us, france and china, are to be evacuated— us, france and china, are to be

evacuated .— us, france and china, are to be evacuated . well,— us, france and china, are to be evacuated . well, the snp has evacuated. well, the snp has ephehtet— evacuated. well, the snp has appointed stuart— evacuated. well, the snp has appointed stuart mcdonald as the party's— appointed stuart mcdonald as the petty-e he— appointed stuart mcdonald as the party's new treasurer following the resignation— party's new treasurer following the resignation of msp colin heettte— the resignation of msp colin heettte .— the resignation of msp colin heettte . th— the resignation of msp colin beattie . mr beattie stepped down beattie. mr beattie stepped down the— beattie. mr beattie stepped down the he— beattie. mr beattie stepped down the he wee— beattie. mr beattie stepped down after he was arrested by police tmeettgethe— after he was arrested by police investigating snp finances. he tater— investigating snp finances. he was later released without charge. — was later released without charge. the— was later released without charge. the party's former chief eeeute — charge. the party's former chief executive, peter— charge. the party's former chief executive, peter murrell , who is executive, peter murrell, who is thee— executive, peter murrell, who is the theta— executive, peter murrell, who is also nicola sturgeon's husband , also nicola sturgeon's husband, was also nicola sturgeon's husband, thee— also nicola sturgeon's husband, was also arrested— also nicola sturgeon's husband, was also arrested and questioned hetete— was also arrested and questioned hetete heme— was also arrested and questioned before being released. police are investigating the use of £600,000— are investigating the use of teooeoo h— are investigating the use of £600,000 in donations meant for the independence— £600,000 in donations meant for the independence referendum . the independence referendum. a eemhe— the independence referendum. a eemhg mete— the independence referendum. a serving member of the british emet— serving member of the british armed forces— serving member of the british armed forces has— serving member of the british armed forces has appeared in court— armed forces has appeared in court themed— armed forces has appeared in court charged with offences meet— court charged with offences meet the— court charged with offences under the official secrets act. 36 under the official secrets act. ee year— under the official secrets act. he yeet ott— under the official secrets act. 36 year old thomas newsome is accused— 36 year old thomas newsome is eeeueet et— 36 year old thomas newsome is accused of sharing— 36 year old thomas newsome is accused of sharing highly eehetttve— accused of sharing highly sensitive military information. hee— sensitive military information. he-e etteget— sensitive military information. he's alleged to— sensitive military information. he's alleged to have shared a tem— he's alleged to have shared a tem hege— he's alleged to have shared a ten page document through social meth— ten page document through social mette te—

ten page document through social mette to the— ten page document through social media to two senior— ten page document through social media to two senior officers who het— media to two senior officers who had eeemhtee— media to two senior officers who had clearance and— media to two senior officers who had clearance and one civilian whe— had clearance and one civilian whe them-t.— had clearance and one civilian who didn't. prosecutors claim if the information _ who didn't. prosecutors claim if the information was leaked , it the information was leaked, it wewtt— the information was leaked, it wewtt hete— the information was leaked, it would have caused a real and tmmettete— would have caused a real and immediate threat— would have caused a real and immediate threat to british peehte— immediate threat to british people outside— immediate threat to british people outside of the uk . he's people outside of the uk. he's twe— people outside of the uk. he's the h— people outside of the uk. he's the th eewt— people outside of the uk. he's due in court again— people outside of the uk. he's due in court again on . friday due in court again on. friday amt— due in court again on. friday me the— due in court again on. friday and the family— due in court again on. friday and the family of stephen lawrence have— and the family of stephen lawrence have held a memorial eewtee— lawrence have held a memorial eewtee h— lawrence have held a memorial service in trafalgar— lawrence have held a memorial service in trafalgar square to meet— service in trafalgar square to meet the— service in trafalgar square to mark the 30th— service in trafalgar square to mark the 30th anniversary of his mweeet— mark the 30th anniversary of his mweeet .— mark the 30th anniversary of his mweeet . the— mark the 30th anniversary of his murder . the 18— mark the 30th anniversary of his murder. the 18 year old was ttttet— murder. the 18 year old was ttttet h— murder. the 18 year old was ttttet th e— murder. the 18 year old was killed in a racist— murder. the 18 year old was killed in a racist attack while wetthe— killed in a racist attack while wetthe tee— killed in a racist attack while wetthg tee e— killed in a racist attack while waiting for a bus— killed in a racist attack while waiting for a bus in south east temtem— waiting for a bus in south east temtem ete— waiting for a bus in south east london. it's alleged that the eetehet— london. it's alleged that the original investigation was hhteeet— original investigation was hhteeet tw— original investigation was hindered by racism and police eeeewhtteh— hindered by racism and police corruption, meaning it took etmeet— corruption, meaning it took etmeet zo— corruption, meaning it took almost 20 years for two of his tttteee— almost 20 years for two of his tttteee te— almost 20 years for two of his killers to face— almost 20 years for two of his killers to face ._ almost 20 years for two of his killers to face . justice the cbi killers to face. justice the cbi hee— killers to face. justice the cbi has suspended— killers to face. justice the cbi has suspended all policy and memheeehth— has suspended all policy and membership activity after allegations— membership activity after allegations of— membership activity after allegations of rape and sexual eeeewtt— allegations of rape and sexual assault prompted— allegations of rape and sexual assault prompted some of its htggeet— assault prompted some of its htggeet hemee— assault prompted some of its biggest names to quit. dozens of members, including john lewis, newest,— members, including john lewis, natwest, jaguar— members, including john lewis, natwest, jaguar land rover and bt, natwest, jaguar land rover and he, hete— natwest, jaguar land rover and ht, hewe hwttet— natwest, jaguar land rover and bt, have pulled out of the trade

hetw. — bt, have pulled out of the trade hetw. ehe— bt, have pulled out of the trade body- me says— bt, have pulled out of the trade body- ehe eewe ht— bt, have pulled out of the trade body. cbi says it shares the sheet— body. cbi says it shares the sheet mt— body. cbi says it shares the shock and revulsion over the ettegettehe— shock and revulsion over the ettegettehe .— shock and revulsion over the allegations . well, tributes have allegations. well, tributes have homet— allegations. well, tributes have heweet h— allegations. well, tributes have heweet th tee— allegations. well, tributes have poured in for australian entertainer— poured in for australian entertainer barry humphries, who has thet— entertainer barry humphries, who has ttet et— entertainer barry humphries, who has died at the— entertainer barry humphries, who has died at the age of 89 . has died at the age of 89. during— has died at the age of 89. hwethe e— has died at the age of 89. during a seven— has died at the age of 89. during a seven decade career. he teet— during a seven decade career. he test them— during a seven decade career. he was best known for— during a seven decade career. he was best known for his alter eeee— was best known for his alter egos, including— was best known for his alter egos, including dame edna tweeeee— egos, including dame edna tweeege emet— egos, including dame edna everage and sir— egos, including dame edna everage and sir les patterson. aetee— everage and sir les patterson. aetee meee— everage and sir les patterson. actorjason donovan described htm— actorjason donovan described htm ee— actorjason donovan described htm as th— actorjason donovan described him as an entertaining genius emet— him as an entertaining genius met the— him as an entertaining genius and the australian prime whtetee— and the australian prime minister anthony albanese, paid tethwte— minister anthony albanese, paid tethwte te— minister anthony albanese, paid tribute to him _ minister anthony albanese, paid tribute to him as— minister anthony albanese, paid tribute to him as the brightest ethe— tribute to him as the brightest etee h— tribute to him as the brightest etee th e— tribute to him as the brightest star in a galaxy— tribute to him as the brightest star in a galaxy of personas . star in a galaxy of personas. thte— star in a galaxy of personas. the he— star in a galaxy of personas. the he eh— star in a galaxy of personas. this is gb news.— star in a galaxy of personas. this is gb news. we'll bring you ee ht— this is gb news. we'll bring you more as it happens. now let's get— more as it happens. now let's get teet— more as it happens. now let's get heet te— more as it happens. now let's get back to the— more as it happens. now let's get back to the crusade . get back to the crusade. homom— get back to the crusade. l tomorrow is- get back to the crusade. i tomorrow is saint. get back to the crusade. tomorrow is saint george's day, which means we are in for which means that we are in for the annual tradition of people

saying saint george was saying but saint george was turkish. you know, he never even set foot in england . oh, and did set foot in england. oh, and did you know that fish and chips aren't english either? and tea and a strange argument and curry. a strange argument i've always thought coming primarily from those on the left. the point , of course, is left. the point, of course, is to denigrate us to undermine any naughty feelings of patriotism that we might have . but it's not that we might have. but it's not the gotcha that they think it is, because what they're really implying is that something that originates elsewhere doesn't really belong here. it can't really belong here. it can't really belong here. it can't really be english or a symbol of national identity , can it? if national identity, can it? if it's foreign, a strangely nativist implication in, don't you think we've been celebrating saint george's day in this country since the ninth century. our kings emblazoned their banners with the cross as they marched into battle . for marched into battle. for centuries, we prayed to saint george for protection . one of george for protection. one of the most famous lines in literature is from shakespeare's henry the fifth. when the

monarch cries out for harry england and saint george from the third century until now , it the third century until now, it was no secret that saint george was no secret that saint george was born in what is now turkey . was born in what is now turkey. no one had a problem . in my no one had a problem. in my experience, the people who say, but saint george wasn't an englishman tend to be the same people who simultaneously argue that everything english is bad, but also want you to believe that there's nothing that is distinctively english at all. and certainly there's nothing to be proud of. well to these people, i simply say, no, you're wrong. we've got a tremendous amount to be proud of in this little sceptred isle of ours . little sceptred isle of ours. the philosopher sir roger scruton talked about the culture of repudiation in our oikophobia from the greek, meaning a fear or hatred of place and home self—hater and guilt that instil typekit to vandalise and chuck away everything valuable that we've inherited from our

ancestors. but i tell you this if we as a country three were an individual, all ways so shrouded individual, all ways so shrouded in self—loathing thing, we'd be sent to see a shrink because it's not healthy to be so unrelentingly negative and cynical about ourselves. all the time. some politicians who will remain unnamed seem to cringe and turn up their noses at the sight of saint george's flags hanging from the windows of this great nation . when they think great nation. when they think there's something embarrassing about it, a bit dirty, even when they can't tell the difference between the far right and good , between the far right and good, natural, healthy, patriotic feelings. call them snobs or philistines, it doesn't matter . philistines, it doesn't matter. let them say whatever they want to say . but tomorrow let them say whatever they want to say. but tomorrow is a time to say. but tomorrow is a time to celebrate , not just with to celebrate, not just with those living today , but with all those living today, but with all those living today, but with all those who came before us to feel proud of this great country and our many achievements over so many centuries in this shared home of ours. if some people

can't appreciate the beauty of simple patriotism, that's their problem. but let's not let it stop us. saint george pray for us because by george, we need it welcome to the common sense crusade. i'm emma webb, standing in for kelvin robinson this week. joining me this evening, my wonderful journalist, former labour adviser and writer scarlett maguire and media personality and commentator olly london. welcome to you both . london. welcome to you both. olly, self—identification attracted worldwide attention and stirred debate over over whether a person can be trans racial identifying as a different race and that leads us to this week's jewel. you've heard of transgenderism. you may have even seen examples of trans

racialism like rachel dolezal, a white activist who was accused of being a race faker after going to great lengths to present as a black woman. what about trans ableism? believes that they are imposters in their own body , some trans abled own body, some trans abled identifying people have sought to become disabled by choice and then there are the adult baby community, which doesn't really require any elaboration on. but what about trans speciesism? take a look . this is from japan. take a look. this is from japan. a gentleman called tokyo who lives inside a realistic dog costume , drinks and eats from costume, drinks and eats from a bowl and even plays fetch . one bowl and even plays fetch. one of our producers here told me that he's putting in an order for an outfit tonight. but there is a serious question to all of this. where do we draw the line on the right to identify? so let's get stuck into the jewels.

scarlett, how? now, if you follow this logic, where do you draw the line? what where? where do we stop saying i'm going to say that you're a dog because you identify as a dog. well i mean, i do think it's quite difficult, right? because clearly that— difficult, right? because clearly that man- 2 0.00 37 because clearly that man believes 2 0.0.00 37 because clearly that man believes he's difficult, right? because- clearly that man believes he's a tee.— clearly that man believes he's a tee. ._ clearly that man believes he's a dog- . meth— clearly that man believes he's a dog- t twe— clearly that man believes he's a dog. i mean, i've just called htm— dog. i mean, i've just called htm e— dog. i mean, i've just called htm e mem— dog. i mean, i've just called him a man, so— dog. i mean, i've just called him a man, so i'm whatever it is . hut— him a man, so i'm whatever it is . hwt he— him a man, so i'm whatever it is . but he believes— him a man, so i'm whatever it is . but he believes he's a dog. amt— . but he believes he's a dog. amt whet— . but he believes he's a dog. amt whet ._ . but he believes he's a dog. and what i wonder is, does it do ehwhetw— and what i wonder is, does it do anybody any— and what i wonder is, does it do anybody any harm?— and what i wonder is, does it do anybody any harm? and surely thet— anybody any harm? and surely thet ehewtt— anybody any harm? and surely that should be— anybody any harm? and surely that should be the question. we-ee— that should be the question. we-ee eethe— that should be the question. we're asking is,— that should be the question. we're asking is, is if people went— we're asking is, is if people went te— we're asking is, is if people want to identify— we're asking is, is if people want to identify bannau or feel thet— want to identify bannau or feel thet thew— want to identify bannau or feel that they really— want to identify bannau or feel that they really do identify as ethee— that they really do identify as ethee thhee. — that they really do identify as other things. i— that they really do identify as other things. i mean, i remember tethe— other things. i mean, i remember tethe my— other things. i mean, i remember tethg my twe— other things. i mean, i remember taking my two year— other things. i mean, i remember taking my two year old on a massive hike— taking my two year old on a massive hike in— taking my two year old on a massive hike in yosemite park emet— massive hike in yosemite park eht ehe— massive hike in yosemite park and she decided— massive hike in yosemite park and she decided she was a dog ehe— and she decided she was a dog eht tee— and she decided she was a dog eht tee eteht— and she decided she was a dog and for eight miles she walked as and for eight miles she walked ee e tee. — and for eight miles she walked ee e dog- amt— and for eight miles she walked as a dog. and we— and for eight miles she walked as a dog. and we got through the me— as a dog. and we got through the htte emet— as a dog. and we got through the hike and actually— as a dog. and we got through the hike and actually ,_ as a dog. and we got through the hike and actually , you know, she hike and actually, you know, she is hike and actually, you know, she te hw— hike and actually, you know, she te e young— hike and actually, you know, she is now a young woman. there's a theme— is now a young woman. there's a difference, though,— is now a young woman. there's a difference, though, isn't there, between— difference, though, isn't there, between children _ difference, though, isn't there,

between children pretending to between children pretending to he e— between children pretending to he e tee— between children pretending to he e tee emet— between children pretending to be a dog and grown men paying 40 odd eeeht— be a dog and grown men paying 40 odd eeeht tee— be a dog and grown men paying 40 ett eeeht tee e— be a dog and grown men paying 40 odd grand for a dog— be a dog and grown men paying 40 odd grand for a dog costume. �*j0 odd grand for a dog costume. do you odd grand for a dog costume. do we thmt— odd grand for a dog costume. do you thmt thet— odd grand for a dog costume. do you think that ollie,— odd grand for a dog costume. do you think that ollie, that there's something about this is actually quite offensive, particularly on the transracialism you know, i do. so when i was going so when i wasygoing through my so when i was going through my ttehtttw— so when i was going through my identity struggle,— so when i was going through my identity struggle, i— so when i was going through my identity struggle, i was heeteettw— identity struggle, i was basically if basically saying, you know, if all basically saying, you know, if ett—wtth- basically saying, you know, if all—with gender| all these people with gender tteeteew— all these people with gender tteeteoy eee— all these people with gender ideology are saying these ideology are saying all these tttteeeht— different identities, what's weehe— different identities, what's whee-me— different identities, what's wrong me doing wrong with me doing that? ehwewew— wrong with me doing that?- obviously—realise wrong with me doing that?- obviwasyl_realise wrong with me doing that?- obviwas a_realise wrong with me doing that? obviwas a mistake realise wrong with me doing that? obviwas a mistake i| alise wrong with me doing that? obviwas a mistake i| wast that was a mistake and i was etewootho— that was a mistake and i was etewootho wtth— that was a mistake and i was struggling with my identity. but it struggling with my identity. but tt eeettw— struggling with my identity. but tt eeettw teee— struggling with my identity. but it really does draw the question heee— it really does draw the question heeeweelett— it really does draw the question becauselall these— it really does draw the question because all these other it really does draw the question becaustare all these other it really does draw the question becaustare saying;e other it really does draw the question becaustare saying you her it really does draw the question becaustare saying you can people are saying you can ttehtttw— people are saying you can ttehtttwle— people are saying you can identify a there's a people are saying you can- identifyia-there's a man identify as a dog, there's a man in identify as a dog, there's a man h-thet-e— identify as a dog, there's a man h-thet-e e— identify as a dog, there's a man in _that's a wolf,- identify as a dog, there's a man in that's a wolf, you in japan that's a wolf, you thew,— in japan that's a wolf, you know, where— in japan that's a wolf, you know, where do- in japan that's a wolf, you know, where do draw the know, where do you draw the thee— know, where do you draw the thee-yew — know, where do you draw the line?-you know,- know, where do you draw the line?-you know, i- know, where do you draw the line? you know, i was kind line? and, you know, i was kind of line? and, you know, i was kind et—eeehet— line? and, you know, i was kind of_against these. of saying that against these wete— of saying that against these woke-yew- of saying that against these woke-you know,- of saying that against these woke you know, why of saying that against these- woke _you know, why can't woke people, you know, why can't i woke people, you know, why can't . eew— woke people, you know, why can't . eew et— woke people, you know, why can't . eew et the — woke people, you know, why can't i say at the time— woke people, you know, why can't i say at the time-i- woke people, you know, why can't i say at the time i felt i say at the time that i felt the— i say at the time that i felt the-te— i say at the time that i felt ttte-te he- i say at the time that i felt like-to be a- i say at the time that i felt. like-to be a korean i say at the time that i felt- like-to be a korean pop like i wanted to be a korean pop eteee— like i wanted to be a korean pop eteee whet-e— like i wanted to be a korean pop star? what's the— like i wanted to be a korean pop star? what's the harm in that if eweeheew— star? what's the harm in that if ewewehe-tehe- star? what's the harm in that if everyone doing but everyone else is doing it? but it's everyone else is doing it? but he eeettw— everyone else is doing it? but it's really-bad- everyone else is doing it? but it's really bad now it's really getting bad now heee— it's really getting bad now because-now- it's really getting bad now because now seeing grown because we're now seeing grown teeeehe— because we're now seeing grown teeeeho wh— because we're now seeing grown men dressing up as— because we're now seeing grown men dressing up as babies, weeehe— men dressing up as babies, weeethe—thew wearing diapers, you know, hewhe— wearing diapers, you know, having from having dummies and sucking from hetttee—he- bottles and wanting to be eeeheetet— bottles and wanting to be eeeheetetle— bottles and wanting to be respected a baby. i mean, respected as a baby. i mean, thet-e— respected as a baby. i mean, thet-e e— respected as a baby. i mean, thet-e e htt— respected as a baby. i mean, that's a bit creepy. but, you thew,— that's a bit creepy. but, you thew-tee— that's a bit creepy. but, you know,-dog thing- that's a bit creepy. but, you know, dog thing seems know, the dog thing seems a ttttte— know, the dog thing seems a little . harmless, - know, the dog thing seems a little harmless, but it's little bit harmless, but it's wheee— little bit harmless, but it's wheee-teew- little bit harmless, but it's where - draw the - little bit harmless, but it's where draw the line, you where do we draw the line, you thew,— where do we draw the line, you

know, because _ where do we draw the line, you know, because only going to know, because it's only going to teet—hewhe- know, because it's only going to. lead—having more lead to more people having more whwewet— lead to more people having more unusual—think. unusual identities. and i think the me— unusual identities. and i think the men identifying as kids, thet-e— the men identifying as kids, thet-e the— the men identifying as kids, that's the dangerous thing. whet— that's the dangerous thing. whet-wee— that's the dangerous thing. what-you think- that's the dangerous thing. what-you think about. that's the dangerous thing. i what-you think about this? what do you think about this? adults who pretend to be babies, they have somebody who looks after a baby. after them like they're a baby. or think there's or do you think there's something sort of bit creepy something sort of a bit creepy about even a about this or possibly even a bit offensive to people? you can imagine you can imagine imagine that. so you can imagine someone who's transgender wanting well, lump wanting to say, well, don't lump me people who me in with these people who identify babies or who want identify as babies or who want to cut limbs off. oh, no, i can eheetwtew— to cut limbs off. oh, no, i can eheetwtety eew— to cut limbs off. oh, no, i can absolutely say i— 0.0.0 0 oh, no, i can absolutely say i understand a teeheoehtee— absolutely say i understand a transgender-who- absolutely say i understand a transgender who says transgender person who says i weem- het- transgender person who says i was-man, but but. transgender person who says i was man, but but i've was born as a man, but but i've hewee-hehhw— was born as a man, but but i've never-happylthat.- was born as a man, but but i've never happy that. and never been happy in that. and twe— never been happy in that. and t-we-tett— never been happy in that. and i've-felt female. - never been happy in that. and i've felt female. and now i've always felt female. and now i'm i've always felt female. and now tm tethe— i've always felt female. and now tm going te— i've always felt female. and now i'm going to come— i've always felt female. and now i'm going to come out as a temete— i'm going to come out as a temete. amt— i'm going to come out as a female. and the- i'm going to come out as a female. and the difference between— female. and the difference between that _ female. and the difference between that and a grown man eewho— between that and a grown man eeyho ._ between that and a grown man eeyho t weht— between that and a grown man eeyho t weht te— between that and a grown man saying, i want to wear nappies and:— saying, i want to wear nappies eht, ehe,— saying, i want to wear nappies eht, eht, emet— saying, i want to wear nappies and, and, and but— saying, i want to wear nappies and, and, and but i still think thet— and, and, and but i still think thet eetwettw— and, and, and but i still think that actually in— and, and, and but i still think that actually in the end , if that actually in the end, if he— that actually in the end, if he met— that actually in the end, if it's not harming anybody , that's it's not harming anybody, that's etew. — it's not harming anybody, that's etew. ._ it's not harming anybody, that's etey. t meeh— it's not harming anybody, that's etey. t ._ it's not harming anybody, that's okay. i mean, i think there is a theme — okay. i mean, i think there is a theme ._ okay. i mean, i think there is a difference. i think— okay. i mean, i think there is a difference. i think i mean, i thht— difference. i think i mean, i think ollie's_ difference. i think i mean, i think ollie's right about the whete— think ollie's right about the whole racial— think ollie's right about the whole racial thing. and i do understand— whole racial thing. and i do understand why— whole racial thing. and i do understand why a lot of black

peehte— understand why a lot of black heepte wee— understand why a lot of black people were incredibly insulted ehewt— people were incredibly insulted ehewt eeetet— people were incredibly insulted about racial or— people were incredibly insulted about racial or whatever her te eeyhe— about racial or whatever her name is saying she was black. heee— name is saying she was black. because actually,— name is saying she was black. because actually, the other thhe— because actually, the other thhe te— because actually, the other thhe te ,— because actually, the other thhe te , yew— because actually, the other thing is , you know, she was she thing is, you know, she was she oettthe— thing is, you know, she was she was getting credibility as a tweet— was getting credibility as a black person— was getting credibility as a black person when actually she whtte. — black person when actually she was white. and _ black person when actually she was white. and for— black person when actually she was white. and for her to say, het— was white. and for her to say, but ._ was white. and for her to say, but . teet— was white. and for her to say, but i feel black— was white. and for her to say, but i feel black seems very tttteeeht— but i feel black seems very different to— but i feel black seems very different to saying, but i feel temete— different to saying, but i feel temete .— different to saying, but i feel temete . ._ different to saying, but i feel female. i mean,— different to saying, but i feel female . i mean, if different to saying, but i feel female. i mean, if is it different to saying, but i feel female . i mean, if is it that female. i mean, if is it that tttteeehte— female. i mean, if is it that different? well,— female. i mean, if is it that different? well, i mean, i do thht— different? well, i mean, i do thht thet— different? well, i mean, i do think that there— different? well, i mean, i do think that there is serious is it think that there is serious is tt gentee— think that there is serious is it gender, gender dysmorphia? tteht— it gender, gender dysmorphia? tteht thet— it gender, gender dysmorphia? ttoht thet yew— it gender, gender dysmorphia? right that you that i don't thht— right that you that i don't thht tt-e— right that you that i don't think it's massive . but i do think it's massive. but i do thht— think it's massive. but i do thht theee— think it's massive. but i do think there are— think it's massive. but i do think there are people who feel thet— think there are people who feel thet thew— think there are people who feel thet they — think there are people who feel that they were born into the weeme — that they were born into the wrong sex and— that they were born into the wrong sex and they have a pretty heeethte— wrong sex and they have a pretty heeethte the— wrong sex and they have a pretty horrible life until— wrong sex and they have a pretty horrible life until they come out.— horrible life until they come out. amt— horrible life until they come out. me ._ horrible life until they come out. and i remember i horrible life until they come out. and i rememberi mean horrible life until they come out. and i remember i mean , out. and i remember i mean, teeetee— out. and i remember i mean, teeetee eee— out. and i remember i mean, teeetee eee h— out. and i remember i mean, decades ago in a— out. and i remember i mean, decades ago in a newsroom, i was in decades ago in a newsroom, i was he theee— decades ago in a newsroom, i was he theee wee— decades ago in a newsroom, i was he theee e— decades ago in a newsroom, i was he theee e ow— decades ago in a newsroom, i was in there was a guy who was transitioning— in there was a guy who was transitioning ._ in there was a guy who was transitioning . now, you know, he transitioning. now, you know, he went— transitioning. now, you know, he wasn't some woke— transitioning. now, you know, he wasn't some woke person. aetwettw— wasn't some woke person. aetwettw he— wasn't some woke person. actually, he was a tory councillor— actually, he was a tory councillor ._ actually, he was a tory councillor . and the women were councillor. and the women were heeetthtw— councillor. and the women were incredibly understanding. and when— incredibly understanding. and when he— incredibly understanding. and when he decided to wear a dress emet— when he decided to wear a dress eht eeme— when he decided to wear a dress eht hete— when he decided to wear a dress and come into our— when he decided to wear a dress and come into our loo , it was

and come into our loo, it was the.— and come into our loo, it was the. amt— and come into our loo, it was fine. and actually— and come into our loo, it was fine. and actually we understood met.— fine. and actually we understood met. the— fine. and actually we understood good. this, this— fine. and actually we understood good. this, this was somebody whe— good. this, this was somebody who wee— good. this, this was somebody who trying— good. this, this was somebody who was trying to— good. this, this was somebody who was trying to sort himself out heteet— who was trying to sort himself out instead of— who was trying to sort himself out instead of saying, oh no, the— out instead of saying, oh no, thte te— out instead of saying, oh no, thte te ett— out instead of saying, oh no, this is all ghastly and i just i mean, you know— this is all ghastly and i just i mean, you know ,_ this is all ghastly and i just i mean, you know , i think all only mean, you know, i think all only got mean, you know, i think all only get ht— mean, you know, i think all only got it absolutely— mean, you know, i think all only got it absolutely right. there's eemethhg— got it absolutely right. there's something really— got it absolutely right. there's something really creepy dodi ehewt— something really creepy dodi ehewt me— something really creepy dodi about men who— something really creepy dodi about men who think they're hehtee— about men who think they're babies, right?— about men who think they're babies, right? i— about men who think they're babies, right? i mean, not eemehetw— babies, right? i mean, not somebody i'd— babies, right? i mean, not somebody i'd want to be friends wtth— somebody i'd want to be friends wtth het— somebody i'd want to be friends with, but actually— somebody i'd want to be friends with, but actually also really eee— with, but actually also really eet .— with, but actually also really eet . amt— with, but actually also really eet . amt ._ with, but actually also really sad . and i mean, what sort of sad. and i mean, what sort of the— sad. and i mean, what sort of the te— sad. and i mean, what sort of the to they— sad. and i mean, what sort of life do they have? 0 life do they have? scarlett seeetett— life do they have? scarlett scarlett mentioned gender dysphoria. would you say that you had experienced a sort of racial dysphoria as well? so no, actually, when it comes to drawing the line in between transgender ism and other forms of trans ism, that actually it's not that straightforward. well you know, when people are saying you know, when people are saying you can identify in any way you want and, you know, the lgbt community now there's like 72 different genders. so i was just like, different genders. so i was just the, wee— different genders. so i was just ttte, yew thew,— different genders. so i was just like, you know, why— different genders. so i was just like, you know, why not?- 2 ”702000 32 so i was just like, you know, why not? because i like, you know, why not? because . wee— like, you know, why not? because . ttwhg— like, you know, why not? because twee ttwhg th— like, you know, why not? because i was living in korea. i liked thet— i was living in korea. i liked that culture.— i was living in korea. i liked that culture. i— i was living in korea. i liked that culture. i just wanted to teet— that culture. i just wanted to teetleeeteth— that culture. i just wanted to looklcertain-so- that culture. i just wanted to look certain so for me, look a certain way. so for me, it look a certain way. so for me, tt-meee— look a certain way. so for me, it-more about— look a certain way. so for me, it more about fitting in it was more about fitting in mm—

it was more about fitting in wtth thet— it was more about fitting in with that particular society. it went— with that particular society. iti weem-t—te wasn't anything necessarily to do wasn't anything necessarily to te—ehwthhg. - wasn't anything necessarily toi te—ehwthhg. |twet do with race or anything. i just wehtet— do with race or anything. i just wanted-connected- do with race or anything. i just wanted connected to wanted to feel connected to somewhere liked. but wanted to feel connected to- somewhere-liked. but the somewhere where i liked. but the teete— somewhere where i liked. but the te— somewhere where i liked. but the issue now is we're— somewhere where i liked. but the issue now is we're so issue now is we're seeing so mehw— issue now is we're seeing so meet-gentee- issue now is we're seeing so- many-gender dysphoria, many cases of gender dysphoria, whteh— many cases of gender dysphoria, which-scarlett— which like scarlett said, theee-e— which like scarlett said, there's _we i which like scarlett said,- there's-we know there's you know, we know theee-e— there's you know, we know there's trans— there's you know, we know there's trans people, there's teem— there's trans people, there's been teehe— there's trans people, there's been trans people for millennia theewghewt— throughout history. but the teewe— throughout history. but the teewe-thet— throughout history. but the issue _that-alll throughout history. but the. issue _that-all of issue now is that with all of the— issue now is that with all of this selfies,_ issue now is that with all of this selfies, identification wtth—ettl this selfies, identification- with_all angles, with this push from all angles, so with this push from all angles, ee-hewe— with this push from all angles, so-have schools,- with this push from all angles, so have schools, you have so you have schools, you have ttttet— so you have schools, you have. ttttet—eht tiktok, you have hollywood and htehew— tiktok, you have hollywood and htehew ,— tiktok, you have hollywood and even disney , you— tiktok, you have hollywood and even disney , you know, promoting even disney, you know, promoting theee— even disney, you know, promoting theee-te— even disney, you know, promoting these-to change- even disney, you know, promoting these to change people's these things to change people's ttehttttee— these things to change people's identities, to— these things to change people's identities, to actively force them — identities, to actively force them to — identities, to actively force them to change their opinions emet— them to change their opinions eht ththt— them to change their opinions and think, oh,— them to change their opinions and think, oh, maybe i am the weehg— and think, oh, maybe i am the weehg gentee— and think, oh, maybe i am the wrong gender. so— and think, oh, maybe i am the wrong gender. so that's the real tee— wrong gender. so that's the real issue, you know,— wrong gender. so that's the real issue, you know, not the people thet— issue, you know, not the people thet hete— issue, you know, not the people that have generally been transgender— that have generally been transgender for their whole the,— transgender for their whole the-teete- transgender for their whole life, - issue i it- transgender for their whole l life,-issue.it being life, but the issue of it being hwehet— life, but the issue of it being pwehetlttte— life, but the issue of it being pushed kids that wouldn't be pushed on kids that wouldn't be ththtthg— thinking about these things etheewtee. — thinking about these things otherwise. as otherwise. you've recently as well come out as being quite publicly christian, as is publicly christian, as well. is has effect on how has that had an effect on how you understand basically coming to terms with who you are and not as many of these people seem to feel the need to demand that other people recognise them as something that they're not. yeah, absolutely. i mean, that weee- twmthg-

yeah, absolutely. i mean, that was a turning point for was really a turning point for _vou- was really a turning point for| eee—yew thew, was really a turning point for. me._you know, i'd me. and basically, you know, i'd etewggtet— me. and basically, you know, i'd struggled-identity.- me. and basically, you know, i'd struggled identity. i'd struggled with my identity. i'd had struggled with my identity. i'd het gentee— struggled with my identity. i'd had gender dysphoria, body tyememhte— had gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, these dysmorphia, all of these tttteeeht— dysmorphia, all of these different depression dysmorphia, all of these diffe the depression dysmorphia, all of these diffe the way depression dysmorphia, all of these diffe the way i depression dysmorphia, all of these diffe the way i looked. ;sion dysmorphia, all of these diffe the way i looked.;sioryou with the way i looked. so, you thew,— with the way i looked. so, you thewleetee— with the way i looked. so, you know, lorder to _ with the way i looked. so, you know, order to tackle that, know, in order to tackle that, i needed— know, in order to tackle that, i heeded—yew- know, in order to tackle that, i. needed _you know, needed an outlet. and you know, going— needed an outlet. and you know, gethglehweeh— needed an outlet. and you know, going-church was— needed an outlet. and you know, going-church was a- needed an outlet. and you know, going church was a really going to church was a really heetttwe— going to church was a really positive experience. the ehetetteh— positive experience. the christian community were theeetthtw— incredibly welcoming and, you thew,— incredibly welcoming and, you thew-thet- incredibly welcoming and, you know,-that at- incredibly welcoming and, you know,-that at the. incredibly welcoming and, you know, that at the time. know, i needed that at the time. the— know, i needed that at the time. the he— know, i needed that at the time. the he eeettw— know, i needed that at the time. and it's really-me- know, i needed that at the time. and it's really me have and it's really helped me have geeepeetwe— perspective in life and think, you— perspective in life and think, you thew,— perspective in life and think, you know, what— perspective in life and think, you know, what i was doing was eett—heemthg— you know, what i was doing was self—harming-in- you know, what i was doing was. self—harming-in-sense self—harming almost in the sense thet—eth— self—harming almost in the sense thet—eh theee- that i was having all these eegeetee— that i was having all these surgeries-doing- that i was having all these surgeries doing these surgeries and doing these ththge.— surgeries and doing these things. self—harming surgeries and doing these- things.-self—harming and, things. it was self—harming and, you things. it was self—harming and, yew—teet- you know, i've learnt to deal wtth— you know, i've learnt to deal wtth-teewee— you know, i've learnt to deal with-issues and- you know, i've learnt to deal with issues and actually with those issues and actually ththt— with those issues and actually one, yew— with those issues and actually think, you know,— with those issues and actually think, you know, maybe i can help— think, you know, maybe i can heth geome— think, you know, maybe i can help people, maybe can help help people, maybe i can help etheee— help people, maybe i can help others struggling. and others that are struggling. and teet— others that are struggling. and| toot—thet look, we get these people that hewe — look, we get these people that have _identities- look, we get these people that have identities and have different identities and etwtt— have different identities and emh—mew- have different identities and stuff,_now is. have different identities and- stuff,_now is when stuff, but the thing now is when it's stuff, but the thing now is when he hethg— stuff, but the thing now is when it's being pushed— stuff, but the thing now is when it's being pushed on. so many young— it's being pushed on. so many young-se,— it's being pushed on. so many yewhg-se, yew- it's being pushed on. so many young so, you know, i've young people. so, you know, i've thet— young people. so, you know, i've ttwet-theee— young people. so, you know, i've lived these experiences. lived through these experiences. i lived through these experiences. t-whet— lived through these experiences. t-whet-ttte— lived through these experiences. i-what-like first- lived through these experiences. i what like first hand lived through these experiences. i strugglet like first hand lived through these experiences. i struggle with like first hand lived through these experiences. i struggle with yourfirst hand lived through these experiences. i struggle with your identityd to struggle with your identity. but to struggle with your identity. hut—rm- to struggle with your identity. hut—rm twthgl to struggle with your identity.j but—i'm trying to but now it's like i'm trying to help— but now it's like i'm trying to mm the— but now it's like i'm trying to hem ttte, yew— but now it's like i'm trying to help kids, you know, using my hewtewht— help kids, you know, using my newfound-trying- help kids, you know, using my newfound trying to speak newfound faith, trying to speak to newfound faith, trying to speak tee—yew— newfound faith, trying to speak te—wew thew,- newfound faith, trying to speak to_you know, kind| newfound faith, trying to speak. to_you know, kind of to people and, you know, kind of the— to people and, you know, kind of thet-et— to people and, you know, kind of find-of common- to people and, you know, kind of find of common ground find a kind of common ground wheee— find a kind of common groundi wheee—mete where we can, you know, make herew— where we can, you know, make women happy, trans people women happy, make trans people happy,— women happy, make trans people hepgw-heeteet— women happy, make trans people happy, protect everyone, happy, just protect everyone, heeteettw— basically. that's very important. - important. final thought, scarlett. think that scarlett. do you think that actually be harmful to

actually it could be harmful to affirm that affirm somebody who says that they're dog ? no affirm somebody who says that they're dog? no , affirm somebody who says that they're dog ? no , i mean, they're a dog? no, i mean, heemtwt— they're a dog? no, i mean, heemtwt te— they're a dog? no, i mean, harmful to that— ”0 237 no, i mean, harmful to that person to affirm thete. — harmful to that person to affirm thete. we,— harmful to that person to affirm thete. we, t— harmful to that person to affirm their. no, i mean— harmful to that person to affirm their. no, i mean i— harmful to that person to affirm their. no, i mean i mean , i their. no, i mean i mean, i wewtt— their. no, i mean i mean, i wewtt eew— their. no, i mean i mean, i would say that— their. no, i mean i mean, i would say that that person has serious problems— would say that that person has serious problems if they think thew-ee— serious problems if they think thew-ee e— serious problems if they think they-ee e tog.— serious problems if they think they-ee e teg. t— serious problems if they think they're a dog. i think men who ththt— they're a dog. i think men who ththt thete— they're a dog. i think men who think their babies— they're a dog. i think men who think their babies have serious wetteme— think their babies have serious geehteme. t— think their babies have serious problems. i think— think their babies have serious problems. i think there's an enormous difference between for teehegeee— enormous difference between for teehegeee geewte— enormous difference between for teenagers provide they're not tetthg— teenagers provide they're not tetthg tewge— teenagers provide they're not taking drugs. right. i mean, i tee-t— taking drugs. right. i mean, i teh-t t— taking drugs. right. i mean, i teh-t t tee-t— taking drugs. right. i mean, i don't i don't mean fun illegal tewge— don't i don't mean fun illegal tewge het— don't i don't mean fun illegal tewge hwt t— don't i don't mean fun illegal drugs, but i mean— don't i don't mean fun illegal drugs, but i mean prescription tewge— drugs, but i mean prescription tewge heewtet— drugs, but i mean prescription drugs provided that . the thing drugs provided that. the thing ehewt— drugs provided that. the thing ehewt hethg— drugs provided that. the thing ehewt hethg e— drugs provided that. the thing about being a teenager is you you— about being a teenager is you you eeme— about being a teenager is you you out,— about being a teenager is you you come out, you you're all eeete— you come out, you you're all eeete et— you come out, you you're all sorts of different— you come out, you you're all sorts of different people. you tee-t— sorts of different people. you teh-t thew— sorts of different people. you don't know who _ sorts of different people. you don't know who you are. and i ththt— don't know who you are. and i ththt we— don't know who you are. and i ththt we teet— don't know who you are. and i think we just have— don't know who you are. and i think we just have to stand back emet— think we just have to stand back me tet— think we just have to stand back end tet geepte— think we just have to stand back and let people find out who they tht— and let people find out who they are. and obviously— and let people find out who they are. and obviously ,_ and let people find out who they are. and obviously , albie it are. and obviously, albie it teet— are. and obviously, albie it teet oute— are. and obviously, albie it took ollie a— are. and obviously, albie it took ollie a long time and you tht— took ollie a long time and you now find that— took ollie a long time and you now find that you— took ollie a long time and you now find that you are an and tote— now find that you are an and tete et— now find that you are an and tete et heegte— now find that you are an and lots of people find it out in tttteeeht— lots of people find it out in different ways. _ lots of people find it out in different ways. and i have to i t— different ways. and i have to i t het— different ways. and i have to i t het e— different ways. and i have to i mean, i had a complete tomboy as a mean, i had a complete tomboy as e tewghtee— mean, i had a complete tomboy as e tewghtee whe— mean, i had a complete tomboy as a daughter who is— mean, i had a complete tomboy as a daughter who is now she's now a daughter who is now she's now e weet— a daughter who is now she's now a proud feminist.— a daughter who is now she's now a proud feminist. but i mean, i

ththt— a proud feminist. but i mean, i ththt ht— a proud feminist. but i mean, i ththt tt wee— a proud feminist. but i mean, i think it was fine— a proud feminist. but i mean, i think it was fine and i watched her think it was fine and i watched hee ge— think it was fine and i watched hee go though— think it was fine and i watched her go through it— think it was fine and i watched her go through it. think it was fine and i watched her go through it . her go through it. thank you so much. ollie and scarlett , for an much. ollie and scarlett, for an excellent jewel. but unfortunately, we have to move on because we've got a lot to get onto. so tomorrow is saint george's day . unfortunately, george's day. unfortunately, nottingham's saint george's day parade has been cancelled this yeah parade has been cancelled this year. it'sjust parade has been cancelled this year. it's just one of many celebrations across the land that has been cancelled because of costs . i actually wanted to of costs. i actually wanted to buy a saint george's day flag for this show, but i couldn't find one anywhere, which i think is very telling, though i do hear that darren grimes managed to get his mitts on one for saint george's day. always seems to play second fiddle to saint patrick when it comes to our national celebration . as we are national celebration. as we are we as a country undervaluing and forgetting our patron saint are we a bit cringing about english patriotism because we're afraid perhaps of being perceived as far right or racist? but earlier itook far right or racist? but earlier i took to twitter and asked,

should saint george's day be a pubuc should saint george's day be a public bank holiday ? you have public bank holiday? you have another half hour or so to cast your votes on that, and i will bnng your votes on that, and i will bring you the results at the end of the show. there's plenty more to come this evening on our common sense crusade next, we'll be heading to birmingham to get the latest from the new culture forum's 2023 conference and asking what have we got to be proud of .

georgia. within months. you're listening to gb news- 0g “ you're listening to gb news radio . listening to gb news radio. iweteeme— listening to gb news radio. iwelcome back— listening to gb news radio. l welcome back to - listening to gb news radio. . welcome back to the. listening to gb news radio. welcome back to the common sense , emma sense crusade with me, emma webb, standing in for calvin robinson on gb news, robinson here on gb news, britain's news channel. i was in birmingham this— britain's news channel. i was in birmingham this morning- “ 0,0 i was in birmingham this morning speaking at birmingham this morning speaking et the— birmingham this morning speaking et the new— birmingham this morning speaking at the new culture— birmingham this morning speaking at the new culture forum's 2023 conference entitled— at the new culture forum's 2023 conference entitled our future a new— conference entitled our future a new vteteh—

conference entitled our future a new vision for— conference entitled our future a new vision for britain. the eemeeehee— new vision for britain. the conference was— new vision for britain. the conference was a celebration of remote— conference was a celebration of patriotic feeling— conference was a celebration of patriotic feeling reflecting on our patriotic feeling reflecting on eewhtey-e— patriotic feeling reflecting on our country's history and tetthg— our country's history and looking forward to our future wtth — looking forward to our future with optimism— looking forward to our future with optimism instead of the meet— with optimism instead of the usual cynicism— with optimism instead of the usual cynicism ._ with optimism instead of the usual cynicism . i'm i'm usual cynicism. i'm i'm tettghtet— usual cynicism. i'm i'm delighted to— usual cynicism. i'm i'm delighted to be joined from htemthghem— delighted to be joined from birmingham by peter whittle , the birmingham by peter whittle, the tewhtee— birmingham by peter whittle, the tewhtee emet— birmingham by peter whittle, the founder and director of the new ewttwee— founder and director of the new culture forum.— founder and director of the new culture forum. good evening, hetee— culture forum. good evening, hetee. t— culture forum. good evening, hetee. a tehg— culture forum. good evening, peter. a long time no see. hi thee.— peter. a long time no see. hi theee. ht— peter. a long time no see. hi there. hi there,— peter. a long time no see. hi there. hi there, emma. ' 2 peter. a long time no see. hi there. hi there, emma. “2 0 there. hi there, emma. and it was a wonderful— there. hi there, emma. and it was a wonderful speech you gave to. thank you very much. it's teeh— to. thank you very much. it's been e— to. thank you very much. it's been a fantastic— thank you very much. it's been a fantastic day here in htemthghem— been a fantastic day here in birmingham because are you can you tett— birmingham because are you can you tett we— birmingham because are you can you tett we e— birmingham because are you can you tell us a bit— birmingham because are you can you tell us a bit more about the gweheee— you tell us a bit more about the gwepeee et— you tell us a bit more about the gwepeee et the— you tell us a bit more about the purpose of the conference? wett— purpose of the conference? wett. t— purpose of the conference? wett. t meee— purpose of the conference? well, i mean, basically- purpose of the conference? well, i mean, basically dodi the point is what we don't want to be at this conference is kind of like just constantly whining and talking about all the problems we face. and they are legion. i the— we face. and they are legion. i mean, the point— 0 and they are legion. i mean, the point really is, is thet— mean, the point really is, is thet the— mean, the point really is, is that the people _ mean, the point really is, is that the people who came here tetew— that the people who came here tetew tt-e— that the people who came here tetew we owe— that the people who came here today, it's over now. but we had hwhteete— today, it's over now. but we had hwhteete et— today, it's over now. but we had hundreds of people here. they are hundreds of people here. they eth— hundreds of people here. they are all patriotic— hundreds of people here. they are all patriotic people . are all patriotic people. thew-ee— are all patriotic people. they-ee het— are all patriotic people. they're not racist. they're not htgete. — they're not racist. they're not htgete. they-ee— they're not racist. they're not bigots. they're not any of these ththge.— bigots. they're not any of these

ththge. thew— bigots. they're not any of these things. they care— bigots. they're not any of these things. they care desperately ehewt— things. they care desperately ehewt the— things. they care desperately about the future— things. they care desperately about the future of the country ehe— about the future of the country eht et— about the future of the country and of course,— about the future of the country and of course, they want to feel ehttmtem — and of course, they want to feel ehttmtem .— and of course, they want to feel ehttmtem tht— and of course, they want to feel optimism . and indeed, so do i. optimism. and indeed, so do i. the— optimism. and indeed, so do i. the ee— optimism. and indeed, so do i. the ee thet-e— optimism. and indeed, so do i. and so that's really the point of and so that's really the point et ewe— and so that's really the point of our our conference today. and it's of our our conference today. and he we— of our our conference today. and he we hete— of our our conference today. and he we hewe ht— of our our conference today. and it's we have it every— of our our conference today. and it's we have it every year eewht— it's we have it every year around saint— it's we have it every year around saint george's day, saint eeeege-e— around saint george's day, saint eeeege-e hey,— around saint george's day, saint eeeege-e hey, et— around saint george's day, saint george's day, of course, is tomorrow sunday. but one of the meth— tomorrow sunday. but one of the ththge— tomorrow sunday. but one of the main things about— tomorrow sunday. but one of the main things about it, it was heeteetw— main things about it, it was basically how— main things about it, it was basically how can we, if you the— basically how can we, if you he, hethg— basically how can we, if you like, bring this— basically how can we, if you like, bring this country tegethee— like, bring this country together again , but also in a together again, but also in a way— together again, but also in a we whteh— together again, but also in a way which totally celebrates our weet— way which totally celebrates our heet emet— way which totally celebrates our eeet eht ew— way which totally celebrates our past and our history. no shame . past and our history. no shame. theee— past and our history. no shame. theee ehewtt— past and our history. no shame. there should be— past and our history. no shame. there should be no— past and our history. no shame. there should be no shame about whet— there should be no shame about whet te— there should be no shame about whet te e— there should be no shame about what is a wonderful heritage . what is a wonderful heritage. the— what is a wonderful heritage. the yew— what is a wonderful heritage. tet you yew— what is a wonderful heritage. tet you you wtt— what is a wonderful heritage. and you you did a— what is a wonderful heritage. and you you did a video,- what is a wonderful heritage. and you you did a video, a few, i think it was a year or so ago. you actually showed it last year's conference listing all of the things that we have to be proud of as a nation. what do we have to be proud of? peter well, i mean, where do you eteet— well, i mean, where do you eteet, tmmee— well, i mean, where do you start, emma? i— well, i mean, where do you start, emma? i mean, you know, wheee— start, emma? i mean, you know, wheee te— start, emma? i mean, you know, wheee te yew— start, emma? i mean, you know, where do you start— start, emma? i mean, you know, where do you start ,_ start, emma? i mean, you know, where do you start , you know, where do you start, you know, etteeeetthew— where do you start, you know, etteeeettheew .— where do you start, you know, extraordinary . we— where do you start, you know, extraordinary . we almost extraordinary. we almost thwehtet— extraordinary. we almost

invented in— extraordinary. we almost invented in some ways the modern weet.— invented in some ways the modern weett. yew— invented in some ways the modern world. you know,— invented in some ways the modern world. you know, that's no, you thew,— world. you know, that's no, you thew, thet-e— world. you know, that's no, you know, that's no— world. you know, that's no, you know, that's no exaggeration . know, that's no exaggeration. ttteeeettheew— know, that's no exaggeration. extraordinary. the scientific metheet— extraordinary. the scientific method. wonderful literature. yew— method. wonderful literature. tew thew,— method. wonderful literature. you know, the— method. wonderful literature. you know, the industry , you know, the industry, revolution, _ you know, the industry, revolution, extra ordinary eetehtttte— revolution, extra ordinary scientific invention , brilliant scientific invention, brilliant ttteeetwee— scientific invention, brilliant ttteeetwee .— scientific invention, brilliant literature . it— scientific invention, brilliant literature . it is— scientific invention, brilliant literature . it is quite literature. it is quite extraordinary what this country eetwettw— extraordinary what this country eetwettw hee— extraordinary what this country actually has done considering as wett— actually has done considering as wet tte— actually has done considering as wet tte — actually has done considering as well its size. we— actually has done considering as well its size. we tend to forget thet,— well its size. we tend to forget thet, yew— well its size. we tend to forget thet, yew thew,— well its size. we tend to forget that, you know, this is a very emett— that, you know, this is a very small island— that, you know, this is a very small island and— that, you know, this is a very small island and i think that the hem— small island and i think that the eetht te— small island and i think that the point is really with the new cowh— the point is really with the new town teewm — the point is really with the new covid forum and— the point is really with the new covid forum and the people are me— covid forum and the people are heee tetew— covid forum and the people are heee tetew te— covid forum and the people are here today is that— covid forum and the people are here today is that they realise thet— here today is that they realise thet ehe— here today is that they realise thet me they— here today is that they realise that and they they really are appalled— that and they they really are appalled ehe— that and they they really are appalled and dismayed by the way in appalled and dismayed by the way he whteh— appalled and dismayed by the way he whteh eem— appalled and dismayed by the way in which even being just gently heewt— in which even being just gently heewt et— in which even being just gently eeewt et thte— in which even being just gently proud of this is— in which even being just gently proud of this is now considered eemeththg— proud of this is now considered something which— proud of this is now considered something which is verboten . and something which is verboten. and thet-e— something which is verboten. and that's something— something which is verboten. and that's something we have to ehemge— that's something we have to ehemge. tht— that's something we have to change. and it's— that's something we have to change. and it's certainly eemeththg— change. and it's certainly something we— change. and it's certainly something we have to change if we went— something we have to change if we went te— something we have to change if we want to survive— something we have to change if we want to survive as a nation. why— we want to survive as a nation. why te— we want to survive as a nation. why te yew— we want to survive as a nation. why do you think— we want to survive as a nation. why do you think why do you ththt— why do you think why do you tune, hetee— why do you think why do you think, peter, people have become so think, peter, people have become ee eethgew— think, peter, people have become

ee eethgey ehewt— think, peter, people have become so cringey about english eetetete— so cringey about english eetetete e — so cringey about english patriots ? um,- so cringey about english patriots ? 0 so cringey about english- patriots ? um, because patriotism patriots? um, because patriotism used to be viewed as a virtue and something obviously quite dramatic has changed, right? well, exactly , emma. it is well, exactly, emma. it is a virtue. it's a good- �*ftt�*000 0x0000y it is a virtue. it's a good thing �*xwt000 t0>t

eeheegwehtw— decades, six decades. and so eeheegwehtty .— decades, six decades. and so consequently , if— decades, six decades. and so consequently , if the culture consequently, if the culture eteeeet— consequently, if the culture stopped teaching, it's its hteteew— stopped teaching, it's its hteteey ehe— stopped teaching, it's its history and stops teaching reasons to be— history and stops teaching reasons to be proud , you will reasons to be proud, you will ehe— reasons to be proud, you will end we— reasons to be proud, you will end we th— reasons to be proud, you will end we th e— reasons to be proud, you will end up in a situation in which we are now. i think the difference _ we are now. i think the difference is- we are now. i think the difference is now is that we are eeethg— difference is now is that we are eeethg whet— difference is now is that we are eeethg whet te— difference is now is that we are seeing what is an— difference is now is that we are seeing what is an outright etteet— seeing what is an outright etteet eh— seeing what is an outright attack on that. _ seeing what is an outright attack on that. i think it's heeeme— attack on that. i think it's become much— attack on that. i think it's become much more acute . become much more acute. i'm gemg— become much more acute. i'm gemg te— become much more acute. i'm gemg te hethg— become much more acute. i'm going to bring the— become much more acute. i'm going to bring the panel in now on this. scarlett, what do you think we have to be proud of as a nation? do you think we have reason to be optimistic? i certainly think we have reason to certainly think we have reason te he— certainly think we have reason to be optimistic.— certainly think we have reason to be optimistic. i— certainly think we have reason to be optimistic. i think i ththt— to be optimistic. i think i think that— to be optimistic. i think i think that we— to be optimistic. i think i think that we can we can we can do think that we can we can we can te we— think that we can we can we can te we eem— think that we can we can we can te we te— think that we can we can we can do we can do great— think that we can we can we can do we can do great things. what whet— do we can do great things. what whet weeetee— do we can do great things. what what worries me— do we can do great things. what what worries me a— do we can do great things. what what worries me a bit is, is you going— what worries me a bit is, is you gethg eh— what worries me a bit is, is you gethg eh ehewt— what worries me a bit is, is you going on about saint george's whee— going on about saint george's when we— going on about saint george's when we te— going on about saint george's when we do have— going on about saint george's when we do have we have scottish and when we do have we have scottish eht weteh— when we do have we have scottish eht weteh .— when we do have we have scottish eht weteh . hwt— when we do have we have scottish and welsh . but but— when we do have we have scottish and welsh . but but if you look and welsh. but but if you look at and welsh. but but if you look et the— and welsh. but but if you look et the setht— and welsh. but but if you look at the saint george's flag, i when t— at the saint george's flag, i mean when i feel really happy ehewt— mean when i feel really happy ehewt-wheh— mean when i feel really happy about-when we've- mean when i feel really happy about when we've got about it is when we've got a teethett— about it is when we've got a football team _ about it is when we've got a football team and you see people of football team and you see people et ett— football team and you see people et ett eeete— football team and you see people of all colours raising, raising the— of all colours raising, raising the tteg— of all colours raising, raising the tteg ehe— of all colours raising, raising the flag and feeling absolutely

at the flag and feeling absolutely et thet— the flag and feeling absolutely et thet ttme— the flag and feeling absolutely at that time it's— the flag and feeling absolutely at that time it's english. i tte— at that time it's english. i mean, it's the— at that time it's english. i mean, it's the english team and mean, it's the engliin team and i mean, it's the english team and t ththt— mean, it's the english team and t ththt weeete— mean, it's the english team and i think people who say that we're not proud,— i think people who say that we're not proud, but i also ththt— we're not proud, but i also ththt t— we're not proud, but i also think i think— we're not proud, but i also think i think there's nothing weehg— think i think there's nothing weehg wtth— think i think there's nothing wrong with understanding the mtetetee— wrong with understanding the mtetetee we— wrong with understanding the mistakes we made in our history. i mistakes we made in our history. t me— mistakes we made in our history. t .— mistakes we made in our history. t , theee— mistakes we made in our history. t , theee te— mistakes we made in our history. i mean , there is nothing wrong i mean, there is nothing wrong wtth— i mean, there is nothing wrong with understanding that actually we ttt— with understanding that actually we we mete— with understanding that actually we we mete e— with understanding that actually we did make a lot— with understanding that actually we did make a lot of money from etewew— we did make a lot of money from etewew .— we did make a lot of money from etewew . tht— we did make a lot of money from slavery . and slavery is evil, slavery. and slavery is evil, etght— slavery. and slavery is evil, etght .— slavery. and slavery is evil, etght . thet— slavery. and slavery is evil, right . that we— slavery. and slavery is evil, right . that we did make right. that we did make a mtetete— right. that we did make a mistake when— right. that we did make a mistake when we gave independence to the indian and a mtttteh— independence to the indian and a mtttteh weeete— independence to the indian and a million people died. i think theee-e— million people died. i think there's nothing— million people died. i think there's nothing wrong with understanding— there's nothing wrong with understanding history as nuances theteet— understanding history as nuances theteet et— understanding history as nuances theteet et twet— understanding history as nuances instead of just a— understanding history as nuances instead of just a pageantry of we ugh,— instead of just a pageantry of we were right, we were always etght. — we were right, we were always etght. he— we were right, we were always etght. he yew— we were right, we were always right. do you do— we were right, we were always right. do you do you- we were right, we were always right. do you do you think that patriotism is a virtue? yeah i think it's very important to have patriotism as well. but sadly, in the modern- sadly, in the modern society, it is sadly, in the modern society, it he hethg— sadly, in the modern society, it is being eroded.— sadly, in the modern society, it is being eroded. when you see, you— is being eroded. when you see, yew thew,— is being eroded. when you see, yew thew, the— is being eroded. when you see, you know, the english flag, you thew,— you know, the english flag, you thew, weeete— you know, the english flag, you know, people will— you know, the english flag, you know, people will say, oh, yee— know, people will say, oh, ye etght— know, people will say, oh, you're right wing, you're eeetet. — you're right wing, you're racist. - know, - you're right wing, you're racist. know, is racist. you know, this is a heewtttwt— racist. you know, this is a beautiful country. we should be eeteheetthg— beautiful country. we should be celebrating our— beautiful country. we should be celebrating our history. we ehewtt— celebrating our history. we should-looking. celebrating our history. we. should-lookinglthe should also be looking at the tee— should also be looking at the tet ththge— should also be looking at the tet ththge th— should also be looking at the bad things in history and teemthg— bad things in history and learning from _ bad things in history and learning from those mistakes. bad things in history and leareveryrom those mistakes.

bad things in history and leareveryrom thozdoesstakes. but every country does bad ththge— but every country does bad things-history. - but every country does bad things history. you know, things in history. you know, eweey— things in history. you know, eweey eweey— things in history. you know, every every population been every every population has been theewgh— every every population has been through something difficult. but we—tegethee- through something difficult. but we .to _together.- through something difficult. but we to rememberogether. through something difficult. but we to rememberogethtmakes this need to remember what makes this eewhtey—thew - country special. you know, yee— country special. you know, you've monarchy. country special. you know,- you've-monarchy. you've country special. you know,- you"of-monarchy. you've country special. you know, you"of course, monarchy. you've country special. you know, you"of course, fishtarchy. you've country special. you know, you"of course, fish and y. you've country special. you know, you"of course, fish and chips. ve got, of course, fish and chips. tee— got, of course, fish and chips. tee get— got, of course, fish and chips. tee get em— got, of course, fish and chips. you've got an amazing history thet— you've got an amazing history thet geee— you've got an amazing history that goes back— you've got an amazing history that goes back thousands and theweehte— that goes back thousands andi thousands—know, thousands of years. you know, we het— thousands of years. you know, we hee-temehe— thousands of years. you know, we had-romans-as- thousands of years. you know, we had romans as well. so had the romans here as well. so theee-e— had the romans here as well. so theee-e ee— had the romans here as well. so theee-e ee mehy— had the romans here as well. so there's so many great things heee— there's so many great things hee—we- there's so many great things. here—we should here to celebrate. so we should be-together— here to celebrate. so we should be-togetherla- here to celebrate. so we should be together a nation be coming together as a nation to—of— be coming together as a nation to—of n- be coming together as a nation to_of it because| to be more proud of it because so many— to be more proud of it because so many young— to be more proud of it because so many young people these days, they— so many young people these days, they can-t— so many young people these days, they can-t ten— so many young people these days, they can't tell you— so many young people these days, they can't tell you what it means-be— they can't tell you what it means be british, they can't tell you what it- meanslbe british,-know, means to be british, you know, because— means to be british, you know, because-nee— means to be british, you know, because-not really- means to be british, you know, because not really being because they're not really being easem— because they're not really being taught- schools. - because they're not really being taught schools. they're because they're not really being taugbeing schools. they're because they're not really being taugbeing taughtiools. they're because they're not really being taugbeing taughtiools. this 're not being taught about this beam,— not being taught about thisi beautiful,_this beautiful, rich history of this nation. — beautiful, rich history of this nation. .think- beautiful, rich history of this nation. .think we- beautiful, rich history of this nation. think we need to nation. so i think we need to get— nation. so i think we need to get beek— nation. so i think we need to get back ee— nation. so i think we need to get back to that. _ nation. so i think we need to get back to that. and the football— get back to that. and the football like _ get back to that. and the football like scarlett said, brings— football like scarlett said, brings together. football like scarlett said, brings-together. a brings people together. that's a geee— brings people together. that's a greet-sue— brings people together. that's a great-but.need- brings people together. that's a great but need more of great thing. but we need more of thee.— great thing. but we need more of that-tomorrow,- great thing. but we need more of that. tomorrow, sevilla that. so like tomorrow, sevilla eeeree-s— that. so like tomorrow, sevilla georges-shee— that. so like tomorrow, sevilla george's that should be a george's day, that should be a day— george's day, that should be a day ef— george's day, that should be a day of celebration— george's day, that should be a day of celebration barbecues. if the weather's nice and you know, a celebration,— the weather's nice and you know, a celebration, get— the weather's nice and you know, a celebration, get the flags out:— a celebration, get the flags eee, eel-ey— a celebration, get the flags ouo, enjoy ehe— a celebration, get the flags out, enjoy the day. there we are. patriotism— out, enjoy the day. there we are. , out, enjoy the day. there wei are. patriotism .virtue. are. patriotism is a virtue. thank so much, are. patriotism is a virtue. thank-so much, peter. thank you so much, peter weeme.— thank you so much, peter whittle-was- thank you so much, peter whittle. was peter whittle whittle. that was peter whittle there— whittle. that was peter whittle there _culture - there from the new culture fours.— there from the new culture forum—you- there from the new culture forum._you alsoj there from the new culture. forum._you also for forum. and thank you also for having— forum. and thank you also for having me— forum. and thank you also for having me so— forum. and thank you also for having me to give— forum. and thank you also for having me to give a speech earner— having me to give a speech earlier today. _ having me to give a speech earlier today. and thank you for your— earlier today. and thank you for your-year. — earlier today. and thank you for your-year. .youl earlier today. and thank you fori your-yeor-you your time this year. now you can go-ono—

your time this year. now you can eo-ono hove— your time this year. now you can eo-ono hove o— your time this year. now you can go-and have a drink- your time this year. now you can go and have a drink with go back and have a drink with everybody— go back and have a drink with everybody else, — go back and have a drink with everybody else, thank you everybody else, so thank you plenty— everybody else, so thank you plenty-some- everybody else, so thank you plenty-come this- everybody else, so thank you plenty come this evening plenty more to come this evening onense—s— plenty more to come this evening on_sense crusade. plenty more to come this evening. on_sense crusade next on the common sense crusade next up, on the common sense crusade next solem— on the common sense crusade next uolwm oe— on the common sense crusade next bblwbbb be joined— on the common sense crusade next up,.will be joined by— on the common sense crusade next up, will be joined by two up, we will be joined by two bbbbobb— up, we will be joined by two brilliant-to- up, we will be joined by two brilliant to debate brilliant women to debate wbebber— whether trans, gender women sbobbo— whether trans, gender women should—join- whether trans, gender women| should _join the should be allowed to join the womens— should be allowed to join thei women's—next should be allowed to join thei wo gb n's_next should be allowed to join thei wo gb news, _ next should be allowed to join the wogb news, britain's next should be allowed to join the wogb news, britain's newsext should be allowed to join the wogb news, britain's news .(t

we're proud to be gb news the beobbe-s— we're proud to be gb news the people's channel. " people's channel. britain's news . channel calvin . channel- . calvin robinson . channel— . calvin robinson. . channel calvin robinson. despite facing a revolt from members, the women's institute says it will not change its policy of welcoming, quote, anyone who is living as a woman to the organisation. trustees of the organisation. trustees of the organisation have been criticised for forcing this decision on local branches without a vote following a campaign following advice from campaign following advice from campaign groups earlier this

week, former conservative leader william hague also faced a backlash after he told women to get over their concerns to discuss this, i am joined by author and broadcaster amy nicholl and journalist and campaigner jo nicholl and journalist and campaignerjo bartosh . thank you campaignerjo bartosh. thank you guys so much forjoining me tonight. so, amy, can you tell me, why do you think that this is a good idea from the leadership of the we.7 well is a good idea from the leadership of the we? well well, firstly, thank you for having me. and what a great first show, emma. um well, this subject is a bit of a non—argument really, because as the we have been allowing transgender women to participate since the 1970s and there have been absolutely no problems, it's the women's institute. so of course they're going to be welcoming to all women and to do anything otherwise would not only be wrong, but would also be not in agreement with the equalities act. since 2010, we've allowed transgender women equal access to women's spaces, which would include the women's institute. so if they want to go and make

some jam and do some knitting, whatever they're up to, then of course they should be welcome as should we all lost women, but letting trans people into women's spaces is isn't really in line with the equality act, is it? joe no, it isn't. and i would also add— is it? joe no, it isn't. and i would also add that- i’ m?» c l andi would also add that what l?’ \n:::n l l andi would also add that what defines a would also add that what defines omens— would also add that what defines a trans woman is— would also add that what defines a trans woman is that they're a .— a trans woman is that they're a man. i mean, they're male. i eonbon-b— man. i mean, they're male. i eonbon-o be— man. i mean, they're male. i couldn't be a— man. i mean, they're male. i couldn't be a trans woman bese— couldn't be a trans woman bese b-m— couldn't be a trans woman bese m o— couldn't be a trans woman because i'm a woman. so emeebveby— because i'm a woman. so effectively by— because i'm a woman. so effectively by allowing men into the effectively by allowing men into one womens— effectively by allowing men into the women's institute , they have the women's institute, they have made— the women's institute, they have mode is— the women's institute, they have mode is mixed— the women's institute, they have made it mixed sex— the women's institute, they have made it mixed sex and i think snob— made it mixed sex and i think snob momen— made it mixed sex and i think that matters because, you know, onene— that matters because, you know, onene one— that matters because, you know, onene very— that matters because, you know, there are very few— that matters because, you know, there are very few places that are there are very few places that sbngbe— there are very few places that sbngbe se— there are very few places that are single sex left . and with are single sex left. and with regene— are single sex left. and with regard bo— are single sex left. and with regard no one— are single sex left. and with regard to the fact that it has been— regard to the fact that it has been effectively— regard to the fact that it has been effectively mixed sex for a bone— been effectively mixed sex for a bone bime— been effectively mixed sex for a bong me, yes— been effectively mixed sex for a long time, yes, it— been effectively mixed sex for a long time, yes, it has. and snob-s— long time, yes, it has. and snob-s fem — long time, yes, it has. and that's fair. but— long time, yes, it has. and that's fair. but what the omens— that's fair. but what the current chief— that's fair. but what the current chief executive has done is sne-s— current chief executive has done is sne-s bub— current chief executive has done is she's put forward a lot of ebbebs— is she's put forward a lot of edicts. she's— is she's put forward a lot of edicts. she's put— is she's put forward a lot of edicts. she's put forward a lot of son— edicts. she's put forward a lot of son of— edicts. she's put forward a lot of sort of so—called inclusion bobbebes— of sort of so—called inclusion policies without— of sort of so—called inclusion policies without any sort of democratic— policies without any sort of democratic process . and i think democratic process. and i think one— democratic process. and i think one onen— democratic process. and i think and then she's— democratic process. and i think and then she's complained about being— and then she's complained about bebng bogged— and then she's complained about being dragged into the culture wens-mommy— being dragged into the culture wens-mommy .- being dragged into the culture wars. frankly , she's the

wars. well, frankly, she's the one-meo— wars. well, frankly, she's the one -fired-shot.| one that fired the first shot. so one that fired the first shot. so nnebnen— one that fired the first shot. so whether. not - one that fired the first shot. so whether not the membership so whether or not the membership bo— so whether or not the membership to vote,— so whether or not the membership were to vote, that— so whether or not the membership were to vote, that it's a good been— were to vote, that it's a good been-mone— were to vote, that it's a good idea-make it— were to vote, that it's a good idea make it mixed sex or idea to make it mixed sex or oonennse— idea to make it mixed sex or otherwise _that- otherwise is, i think that democratic— otherwise is, i think that democratic has not otherwise is, i think that- democratic-has not been democratic process has not been gone— democratic process has not been gone-ano— democratic process has not been gone-ano-nooi gone through. and that's not oeeebbobbe. — gone through. and that's not acceptable. so,— gone through. and that's not acceptable. , gone through. and that's not acceptable. ' acceptable. so, amy, she's the one who the first shot. one who fired the first shot. that's joe said there. so that's what joe said there. so don't you that the don't you think that the leadership we should have leadership of the we should have asked the membership the wp asked the membership of the wp whether they actually wanted this because clearly this change? because clearly this change? because clearly this is something new and they do to have to drag do seem to have chosen to drag themselves into the culture wars. not those objecting wars. it's not those objecting who here. this who are to blame here. this is, after all, the women's institute. it almost seems like a joke. i mean, first of all, i completely draw issue at the fact that could call it fact that you could call it a trans woman, a man. i think that is a fundamentally wrong. all you've think of you've got to do is think of women like paris lees, india, willoughby, look up willoughby, sean faye, look up any women and tell any of those women and tell me that going to be that they're not going to be welcome a meeting should they welcome in a meeting should they so wish to go and to call trans women is, know, we're women men is, you know, we're not to agree anything not going to agree on anything if that's your if that's if that's your original that you're original premise that you're coming it's also not coming from. and it's also not recognised by medicine science

and the whole start of the argument is wrong. but think that this that melissa green, the leader of the women's institute, has made it clear that she doesn't want to be dragged into this culture war because it's also she's downplayed the actual what has any of the any of the any any of the any of the criticism that has come from within the group. i'm not even convinced that there was any membership uproar. i think there were two complaints. one of which was from a non member. i'm not a member of the women's institute. i don't think joe is a member of the women's institute. emma, i don't think you are. i mean, really , let's you are. i mean, really, let's leave up to the women's leave this up to the women's institute. they've made it clear that they are welcoming to trans women. it. it's not women. let's leave it. it's not even i'd like to even up for debate. i'd like to leave the women's leave it to the women's institute, seems that the institute, but it seems that the members not getting a say. members are not getting a say. joe, you wrote a very good article spite article about this, in spite don't want this isn't just this isn't just, you know, or 2 isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 people complaining this was isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 pldeclarationaining this was isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 pldeclaration that|g this was isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 pldeclaration that was this was isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 pldeclaration that was signed nas isn't just, you know, 1 or 2 p

a declaration that was signed by a anundamentally1. and isn't a declaration that was signed by a anundamentally about isn't a declaration that was signed by a anundamentally about thet this fundamentally about the right to associate ? yeah, i right to associate? yeah, i mean, it's protected- ” g f , yeah, i mean, it's protected under under numbn— mean, it's protected under under nnmon nones— mean, it's protected under under human rights legislation . i human rights legislation. i mean, that's— human rights legislation. i mean, that's something very, very— mean, that's something very, very fundamental that women have nonem— very fundamental that women have bosom fon— very fundamental that women have nongnb non nnen— very fundamental that women have fought for when the _ very fundamental that women have fought for when the women's bnsobme— fought for when the women's institute was— fought for when the women's institute was formed, women men-b— institute was formed, women men-b een— institute was formed, women didn't even have— institute was formed, women didn't even have the vote. so, you— didn't even have the vote. so, yon-ne— didn't even have the vote. so, yon-ne-nnob- didn't even have the vote. so, yon-ne-nnoo ol didn't even have the vote. so,- you-we-what a woman you know, we knew what a woman nos-one— you know, we knew what a woman nos-one ne— you know, we knew what a woman nos-one we sobb— you know, we knew what a woman was-and we still do- you know, we knew what a woman was and we still do now, was then, and we still do now, if was then, and we still do now, b were— was then, and we still do now, if we're honest— was then, and we still do now, if we're honest and think when you— if we're honest and think when you nove— if we're honest and think when you me o— if we're honest and think when you me o mon— if we're honest and think when you have a man in— if we're honest and think when you have a man in a group, quite omen— you have a man in a group, quite often obey— you have a man in a group, quite often oney obey— you have a man in a group, quite often they they dominate. and nnebnen— often they they dominate. and whether that's— often they they dominate. and whether that's nature or nurture one— whether that's nature or nurture and novvever— whether that's nature or nurture and however they— whether that's nature or nurture and however they identify, they do. and however they identify, they oo-rnor— and however they identify, they do. _that wasn't- and however they identify, they do. that wasn't the case, do. and if that wasn't the case, onen— do. and if that wasn't the case, men we — do. and if that wasn't the case, then we wouldn't— do. and if that wasn't the case, then we wouldn't seen, for then we wouldn't have seen, for enamore— then we wouldn't have seen, for eomemonbb-— then we wouldn't have seen, for example,-man who- then we wouldn't have seen, for example, man who was put example, um, a man who was put on me— example, um, a man who was put on me nonr— example, um, a man who was put on me from or— example, um, a man who was put on the front of the— example, um, a man who was put on the front of the cover of, of me— on the front of the cover of, of me women-s— on the front of the cover of, of the women's institutes internal nonse— the women's institutes internal nonse moogme— the women's institutes internal house magazine. now that's, rnor-s— house magazine. now that's, rnor-s mne— house magazine. now that's, that's kind of— house magazine. now that's, that's kind of quite astonishing nearby.— that's kind of quite astonishing reobby. ano— that's kind of quite astonishing reobby. one r— that's kind of quite astonishing really. and i think , um, i really. and i think, um, i rnrnb— really. and i think, um, i rnrnb yon— really. and i think, um, i think, you know, it's not that m — think, you know, it's not that m women— think, you know, it's not that i'm worried they're going to onen— i'm worried they're going to wave their willies in the jam. i rr-s— wave their willies in the jam. i rr-s nor— wave their willies in the jam. i mean, it's not that. the point is, mean, it's not that. the point is obey— mean, it's not that. the point is rney ore— mean, it's not that. the point is, they are men— mean, it's not that. the point is, they are men and if you rnrroobee— is, they are men and if you introduce them— is, they are men and if you introduce them into a women's group— introduce them into a women's group mob-s— introduce them into a women's group mob-slo— introduce them into a women's group that's a mixed sex group that's in a mixed sex group— group that's in a mixed sex group one— group that's in a mixed sex group one roo— group that's in a mixed sex group and 700 people, women robber,— group and 700 people, women rather, within— group and 700 people, women rather, within the— group and 700 people, women rather, within the women's rnsrrrnre— rather, within the women's rnsrrrnre .— rather, within the women's institute , signed that petition. institute, signed that petition. so institute, signed that petition. so rr-s— institute, signed that petition. so rr-s nor— institute, signed that petition. so rr-s nor o— institute, signed that petition. so it's not a fringe thing. it

morrers. — so it's not a fringe thing. it matters. and— so it's not a fringe thing. it matters. and it's- so it's not a fringe thing. it matters. and it's rare representative of what has bobbeneo— representative of what has happened within institutions across society— happened within institutions across society that lobby groups nove— across society that lobby groups nave-bobreres— across society that lobby groups have-policies by- have changed policies by sreobn. — have changed policies by stealth. and— have changed policies by stealth. and there is quite omen— stealth. and there is quite oftenlmassive- stealth. and there is quite often massive disjuncture, a often a massive disjuncture, a orsbonry— often a massive disjuncture, a disparity between the sort of eure— disparity between the sort of ebre, br— disparity between the sort of ebre, b you— disparity between the sort of elite, if you like _ disparity between the sort of elite, if you like , at the top elite, if you like, at the top of organisations— elite, if you like, at the top of organisations who are forcing rnrs— of organisations who are forcing rnrs on— of organisations who are forcing this on members.— of organisations who are forcing this on members. and if the members— this on members. and if the members turn— this on members. and if the members turn around and to members turn around and voted to oeeebr— members turn around and voted to oeeebr-rnor— members turn around and voted to accept-that would— members turn around and voted to accept that would be accept that, that would be obsobnreby— accept that, that would be absolutely would absolutely fine. that would be up absolutely fine. that would be bro-mem.— absolutely fine. that would be nblrnemlrne- absolutely fine. that would be up.them..the fact- absolutely fine. that would be up them. the fact is it up to them. but the fact is it nosn-r— up to them. but the fact is it nosn-r-oone— up to them. but the fact is it hasn't-done like- up to them. but the fact is it. hasn't-done like-it's hasn't been done like that. it's been— hasn't been done like that. it's been imposed— hasn't been done like that. it's been imposed upon them and that rsn-r— been imposed upon them and that isn't acceptable— been imposed upon them and that isn't acceptable . _ been imposed upon them and that isn't acceptable . md isn't acceptable. 1960, absolutely no problem . and all absolutely no problem. and all you're doing is you're policing genitals at the moment, joe. you're reducing people to what's in there, what's living as a woman. i'm curious if i give you an woman. i'm curious if i give you on evombbe— woman. i'm curious if i give you on exombbe or— woman. i'm curious if i give you on exombbe or e— woman. i'm curious if i give you an example of a of— woman. i'm curious if i give you an example of a of a— i'm curious if i give you an example of a of a of a woman bbe— an example of a of a of a woman bbe kobe— an example of a of a of a woman like katie montgomery, sean fay bons— like katie montgomery, sean fay eons are— like katie montgomery, sean fay eons are you— like katie montgomery, sean fay paris, are you happy with your bosrrron— paris, are you happy with your bosrrron ro— paris, are you happy with your position to call— paris, are you happy with your position to call those women men in? position to call those women men me amy,— position to call those women men me my be— position to call those women men me my, are you— position to call those women men in? amy, are you happy to call rnose— in? amy, are you happy to call rnose men— in? amy, are you happy to call those men, women members of the we ore— those men, women members of the we one— those men, women members of the we rne bov— those men, women members of the we are the law is— those men, women members of the we are the law is happy to call onem — we are the law is happy to call them women. they- we are the law is happy to call them women. “cg grib

we are the law is happy to call them women. "rig grib d e ’ri; them women. they go through life as women. they experience the same misogyny that you experience as a woman. it is absolutely farcical that you could call them men . and of could call them men. and of course, they're men.- t: rtrfbll iris“ and of course, they're men. well, of course they're _ course, they're men. well, of course they're men. i mean, rnor-s— course they're men. i mean, that's ludicrous.— course they're men. i mean, that's ludicrous. i mean , it that's ludicrous. i mean, it ooesn-r— that's ludicrous. i mean, it doesn't mean— that's ludicrous. i mean, it doesn't mean you're a woman . jib doesn't mean you're a woman. do we doesn't mean you're a woman. do no less— doesn't mean you're a woman. do we just assume— doesn't mean you're a woman. do we just assume so you're- we just assume so you're reducing people to their genitals. lesbians can have bentses— genitals. lesbians can have penises because,— grit“ lesbians can have penises because, frankly, gri“ lesbians can have penises because, frankly, i'm pretty— penises because, frankly, i'm pretty ott— penises because, frankly, i'm pretty ott as— penises because, frankly, i'm pretty ott as a— penises because, frankly, i'm pretty off as a woman and a same sex relationship— pretty off as a woman and a same sex relationship that— pretty off as a woman and a same sex relationship that i can't join— sex relationship that i can't join any— sex relationship that i can't now join any lesbian or groups of now join any lesbian or groups ot btsevuat— now join any lesbian or groups of bisexual women without men comme— of bisexual women without men eomtno along— of bisexual women without men coming along and— of bisexual women without men coming along and saying they're tesbtans— coming along and saying they're lesbians. that— coming along and saying they're lesbians. that is— coming along and saying they're lesbians. that is not acceptable. - lesbians. that is not acceptable. that is male dominance,— acceptable. that is male dominance, that is male supremacy— dominance, that is male subremaey . — dominance, that is male supremacy . dominance, that is male- supremacy . that's the problem, supremacy. that's the problem, isn't it? amy that this this is undermining sex based rights and that also an implication on that also has an implication on homosexual couples, doesn't it ? homosexual couples, doesn't it? of think the of course. i think the implications that it has on homosexual couples is a completely different issue that homosexual couples is a compl actuallyferent issue that homosexual couples is a compl actually expectssue that homosexual couples is a compl actually expect to e that homosexual couples is a compl actually expect to getiat didn't actually expect to get into today. however i think that if you cannot admit that we have gender incongruence and there are people who are going to live in a gender that isn't the sex they were assigned at birth and

if you're going kind of laugh if you're going to kind of laugh at that as a concept, then that isn't progression. and think isn't progression. and i think what women's institute what the women's institute have done, you done, which is, you know, you talked how when they talked about how when they when women the vote and women didn't have the vote and we had the women's we still had the women's institute, again, they're proving themselves to be incredibly progressive and accurate. women , i'm accurate. and for women, i'm going, includes i'm going, which includes panel, i'm going, which includes panel, i'm going bring my panel in here. going to bring my panel in here. ollie london, from a christian perspective , kyiv, what you perspective, kyiv, what do you think of issue ? you know, i think of this issue? you know, i think of this issue? you know, i tntnt tt-s— think of this issue? you know, i tntnt tt-s very— think of this issue? you know, i think it's very important- , you know, i think it's very important to protest— think it's very important to protect women's spaces. while i understand— protect women's spaces. while i understand about— protect women's spaces. while i understand about inclusion in you— understand about inclusion in you know,— understand about inclusion in you know, tnts— understand about inclusion in you know, this is— understand about inclusion in you know, this is women's you know, this is a women's tnstttute. — institute. it it's founded by vomen— so- institute. it it's founded by women_. so should women for women. so women should be—tn— women for women. so women should be—tn tnetr— women for women. so women should be—tn tnetr oun— be able to be in their own sabees— be able to be in their own spaces-their- be able to be in their own spaces their own restrooms, spaces like their own restrooms, tnetr—ovn- their own toilets, their own roster— their own toilets, their own locker rooms. _ their own toilets, their own locker rooms. and this is, again , locker rooms. and this is, again r-an_ locker rooms. and this is, again _an ot- , you know, an erosion of- women's rights because we're seeme— women's rights because we're seetna—aeatnl seeing time and time again women's rights— seeing time and time again women's rights taken away. women's rights being taken away. and women's rights being taken away. ant-tnere— women's rights being taken away. ant-tnere are— women's rights being taken away. and there are people that and look, there are people that are transgender.— and look, there are people that are transgender. the problem are transgender. but the problem is are transgender. but the problem ts—tnat- is now that people that self—identify - is now that people that self—identify with no checks and batanees— self—identify with no checks and batanees san— self—identify with no checks and balances can join— self—identify with no checks and balances can join the institute. rust— balances can join the institute. rust-bay— balances can join the institute. rust-bay .— balances can join the institute. rust-bay , att- balances can join the institute. just day , all across just the other day, all across tne— just the other day, all across tne-tt— just the other day, all across tne-tt vas— just the other day, all across the-it was in- just the other day, all across the-it was in the- just the other day, all across the it was in the daily the news, it was in the daily bratt— the news, it was in the daily brat, tnts— the news, it was in the daily mail, this biological man that ttenttttes— mail, this biological man that identifies as— mail, this biological man that identifies as a— mail, this biological man that identifies as a woman was accepted— identifies as a woman was accepted women's accepted to the women's rnstttute. — accepted to the women's. institute. _about accepted to the women's- institute._about it institute. they posted about it on—tnetr-

on twitter, posted their otttetat— on twitter, posted their. official—email on twitter, posted their- official—email. official confirmation email. tnts— official confirmation email. tnts-nat— official confirmation email. this had previously tweeted this man had previously tweeted he this man had previously tweeted ne-a— this man had previously tweeted ne-a-ttst— this man had previously tweeted ne-a-ttst to— this man had previously tweeted he-a-list to murder- this man had previously tweeted he a list to murder 50 he had a kill list to murder 50 women's activists— he had a kill list to murder 50 women's activists in the uk. so tnts— women's activists in the uk. so tnts ts— women's activists in the uk. so tnts ts nov— women's activists in the uk. so tnts ts a— women's activists in the uk. so this is now a person that's a membe— this is now a person that's a membe ot— this is now a person that's a member of the— this is now a person that's a member of the organisation. i tntnt— member of the organisation. i tntnt tnat-s— member of the organisation. i think that's wrong . grib “g think that's wrong. i'm going to we've got time just for one quick comment from from scarlett . i think this is one of the saddest— . i think this is one of the saddest stories— i think this is one of the saddest stories that for decades is saddest stories that for decades ts transgender— saddest stories that for decades is transgender women have been gone— is transgender women have been going very— is transgender women have been going very quiet— is transgender women have been going very quiet albie to women's institutes . they've had women's institutes. they've had a nearby— women's institutes. they've had a reatty touon— women's institutes. they've had a really tough time in their ttves. — a really tough time in their lives. they've— a really tough time in their lives. they've found friendship. tney-ve— lives. they've found friendship. tney-ve tone— lives. they've found friendship. they've done it— lives. they've found friendship. they've done it very quietly . they've done it very quietly. ant— they've done it very quietly. ant nov— they've done it very quietly. and now suddenly this has become a eutture— and now suddenly this has become a eutture — and now suddenly this has become a culture war. and— and now suddenly this has become a culture war. and for most transgender— a culture war. and for most transgender women , they don't transgender women, they don't want— transgender women, they don't want to— transgender women, they don't want to be— transgender women, they don't want to be anywhere near a suture.— want to be anywhere near a culture. when— want to be anywhere near a culture. when i— want to be anywhere near a culture. when i read it last week,— culture. when i read it last week, r— culture. when i read it last week, r rust— culture. when i read it last week, i just was- culture. when i read it last week, i just was profound . sad week, i just was profound. sad for week, i just was profound. sad tor tnose— week, i just was profound. sad for those for— week, i just was profound. sad for those for those transgender women who who— for those for those transgender women who who who find themselves— women who who who find themselves in— women who who who find themselves in a fight that they ton-t— themselves in a fight that they ton-t vant— themselves in a fight that they don't want anything to do with. ant— don't want anything to do with. ant unat— don't want anything to do with. ant vnat ts— don't want anything to do with. and what is so— don't want anything to do with. and what is so awful about it is , ts— and what is so awful about it is , ts tt-s— and what is so awful about it is , ts tt-s brettne— and what is so awful about it is , is it's picking on— and what is so awful about it is , is it's picking on people who cant— , is it's picking on people who cant detent— , is it's picking on people who can't defend themselves. thank you so— can't defend themselves. thank you so muon— can't defend themselves. thank you so much, panel, for your

anu— you so much, panel, for your views. and thank- you so much, panel, for your views. , “r: you so much, panel, for your views. you so much, panel, for your- views. and thank you so much for your time this evening. that was joe bartosh and amy nicol. thank you so much for your for your panel you so much for your for your panel, for your company panel all evening. that was former labour advisor and writer scarlett mccgwire and media personality oli london. before we take the final break, let's have a look at what you've had to say about today's topics. phil says you are correct . saint phil says you are correct. saint george may not be english, but saint patrick was. i've never noficed saint patrick was. i've never noticed this. get in the way of a of a of a 7th noticed this. get in the way of aofaofa7thof noticed this. get in the way of a of a of a 7th of march bash, which it's one it's1 a of a of a 7th of march bash, which it's one it's 1 in 365. 1 in 365. chance jesus was born on the 25th of december. i've never noficed the 25th of december. i've never noticed anyone whinge about this , bill says , hi, emma. of course , bill says, hi, emma. of course we need to be proud. what we didn't invent is not worth talking about. don't let these folks try to bring us down. deb says, emma, well done on your

first monologue this evening, spot on. you can come again. thank you . so coming up in the thank you. so coming up in the final part of my common sense crusade this week, we'll be joined by historian martin whittock to discuss the history and origin of saint george's day .thank and origin of saint george's day . thank you so

i welcome back to the final part of the common sense crusade with tomorrow being saint george's day , i took to twitter and day, i took to twitter and asked, should saint george's day be a public bank holiday? the results are . in 79.4% of you results are. in 79.4% of you said yes whilst 20.6% of you said yes whilst 20.6% of you said no. interesting lots of you have been sending in your thoughts on this, chris says more needs to be done and done than that to every government and council building. should be made to fly the flag or at all

times. god save the king should be sung every day at schools in assembly. i agree . couldn't assembly. i agree. couldn't agree more . we also have agree more. we also have a comment here from nemo who says saint george doesn't represent modern britain. we should bring back saint cuthbert, my favourite saint. i love that. but i wouldn't want to dispossess saint george . and dispossess saint george. and finally, we have another viewer who says saint jacob rees—mogg , who says saint jacob rees—mogg, dodi should definitely be a holiday. i wonder what he would think about that. thank you all so much for sending in your views. saint george's day takes place on the 23rd of april. every year to mark the martyrdom of england's patron saint. saint george was killed in the fourth century for refusing to make a sacrifice to pagan gods . since sacrifice to pagan gods. since then, his tomb in the roman province of palestine . now province of palestine. now israel has been the centre of pilgrimage for well over a thousand years, and his feast day has been celebrated in england since the ninth century. to discuss the history around the celebration, i'm joined by

historian and author martin whittock. thank you so much for joining me. martin good evening. great to be with you. so can you tell us a bit about who saint george was as an historical figure ? well, the first record figure? well, the first record for figure? well, the first record tor ntm — figure? well, the first record for him appears— figure? well, the first record for him appears in- �*" g iri?’ well, the first record for him appears in about the firm— for him appears in about the ttttn century,— for him appears in about the fifth century, might be as early as tne— fifth century, might be as early as be tourtn— fifth century, might be as early as the fourth century. and it tetts— as the fourth century. and it tetts a— as the fourth century. and it tetts a story— as the fourth century. and it tells a story of— as the fourth century. and it tells a story of a— as the fourth century. and it tells a story of a greek sbeattne— tells a story of a greek speaking officer, roman officer trom— speaking officer, roman officer trom tne— speaking officer, roman officer from the greek— speaking officer, roman officer from the greek part of the roman tmbtre— from the greek part of the roman tmbtre .— from the greek part of the roman tmbtre , vno— from the greek part of the roman tmbtre , vvno vas— from the greek part of the roman empire , who was in— from the greek part of the roman empire , who was in the imperial empire, who was in the imperial guant— empire, who was in the imperial euart, tne— empire, who was in the imperial guard, the praetorian guard who martyred— guard, the praetorian guard who was martyred for— guard, the praetorian guard who was martyred for his faith at tnts— was martyred for his faith at tnts botnt— was martyred for his faith at tnts botnt .— was martyred for his faith at this point , there's no record of this point, there's no record of tne— this point, there's no record of tbe traaon— this point, there's no record of the dragon that— this point, there's no record of the dragon that doesn't appear untr— the dragon that doesn't appear unttt tne— the dragon that doesn't appear until the 11th— the dragon that doesn't appear until the 11th century. quite a ten— until the 11th century. quite a few centuries— until the 11th century. quite a few centuries later, when we nave — few centuries later, when we nave a— few centuries later, when we have a document— few centuries later, when we have a document from georgia tnat-s— have a document from georgia tnat-s an— have a document from georgia that's an interesting connection,- that's an interesting connection, isn't it? george, eeoreta— connection, isn't it? george, georgia there— connection, isn't it? george, georgia there is— connection, isn't it? george, georgia there is a connection, by tne— georgia there is a connection, by be way— georgia there is a connection, by be way .— georgia there is a connection, by be way , ant— georgia there is a connection, by the way , and then talks about by the way, and then talks about mm— by the way, and then talks about ntm staytne— by the way, and then talks about ntm staytno a— by the way, and then talks about him slaying a dragon that was eattna— him slaying a dragon that was eating maidens— him slaying a dragon that was eating maidens in what we'd now catt— eating maidens in what we'd now eatt moetn— eating maidens in what we'd now call modern libya— eating maidens in what we'd now call modern libya .— eating maidens in what we'd now call modern libya . but the call modern libya. but the onatnat— call modern libya. but the original story— call modern libya. but the original story is that he is a roman— original story is that he is a roman officer,— original story is that he is a roman officer, martyred for his

tattn— roman officer, martyred for his an utter— roman officer, martyred for his faith, killed for— roman officer, martyred for his faith, killed for his faith unter— faith, killed for his faith under one of— faith, killed for his faith under one of the persecutions of the under one of the persecutions of tbe pagan— under one of the persecutions of tbe baoan rtoman— under one of the persecutions of the pagan roman emperors. and tnat— the pagan roman emperors. and tnat outt— the pagan roman emperors. and that cult takes— the pagan roman emperors. and that cult takes off.— the pagan roman emperors. and that cult takes off. it's very bobutar— that cult takes off. it's very popular because it's a dramatic story,— popular because it's a dramatic story, but— popular because it's a dramatic story, but we— popular because it's a dramatic story, but we don't— popular because it's a dramatic story, but we don't know very muon— story, but we don't know very muen about— story, but we don't know very much about him— story, but we don't know very much about him at all. beyond tbat— much about him at all. beyond tnat, vve-t— much about him at all. beyond that, we'd like— much about him at all. beyond that, we'd like to— much about him at all. beyond that, we'd like to know more, but— that, we'd like to know more, but we— that, we'd like to know more, but we ton-t.— that, we'd like to know more, but we don't. what comes next, of but we don't. what comes next, ot ts— but we don't. what comes next, of course, is the— but we don't. what comes next, of course, is the fascinating ntstory— of course, is the fascinating ntstory ot— of course, is the fascinating history of what— of course, is the fascinating history of what people do with the history of what people do with be regent— history of what people do with me teoent ot— history of what people do with the legend of saint george or the legend of saint george or tne-ot— the legend of saint george or tne-ot satnt- the legend of saint george ori the-of saint-for the reality of saint george, for tnat— the reality of saint george, for ma matter. — the reality of saint george, for that matter. so— the reality of saint george, for that matter. rtbi“ the reality of saint george, for that matter. t“ at; that matter. so can you tell us a bit more about when that dragon the dragon myth came into the picture? obviously picture? because obviously there's lot of symbolism there's a lot of symbolism there. and it's the same with saint patrick, the association with there's a sort with snakes. there's a sort of symbolic element chaos and symbolic element of chaos and driving out chaos. so where did that come into the picture and was that partly responsible all for the popularity of saint george? because obviously he was he was already being celebrated in this country before the 11th century when that story came about. yeah you're absolutely right. in the christian scriptures,— i g“ in the christian scriptures, dragons and in the revrsn— scriptures, dragons and in the jewish scriptures— scriptures, dragons and in the jewish scriptures to dragons , jewish scriptures to dragons, serpents— jewish scriptures to dragons, serbents are— jewish scriptures to dragons, serpents are associated with evtt— serpents are associated with evtt .— serpents are associated with evtt . so— serpents are associated with evil . so this— serpents are associated with evil . so this idea of him evil. so this idea of him staytno— evil. so this idea of him staytno tne— evil. so this idea of him

slaying the dragon probably conveys— slaying the dragon probably eonvys tne— slaying the dragon probably conveys the idea of him having vtetory— conveys the idea of him having vtetory over— conveys the idea of him having victory over evil. _ conveys the idea of him having victory over evil. and it first appears— victory over evil. and it first appears tn— victory over evil. and it first appears tn a— victory over evil. and it first appears in a document that's brotueet— appears in a document that's brotueet tn— appears in a document that's produced in georgia, in the caucasus in— produced in georgia, in the caucasus in the— produced in georgia, in the caucasus in the 11th century. but— caucasus in the 11th century. but be— caucasus in the 11th century. but be reatty— caucasus in the 11th century. but he really picks up and he reatty— but he really picks up and he reatty takes— but he really picks up and he really takes off— but he really picks up and he really takes off after the crusates— really takes off after the crusades because although his mttttary— crusades because although his military career— crusades because although his military career is— crusades because although his military career is not a big tntna— military career is not a big tntna ot— military career is not a big tntna ot tne— military career is not a big thing of the original stories , thing of the original stories, he thing of the original stories, ne ts— thing of the original stories, ne ts a— thing of the original stories, he is a soldier.— thing of the original stories, he is a soldier. and at the time of he is a soldier. and at the time ot tne— he is a soldier. and at the time of the crusades,— he is a soldier. and at the time of the crusades, a— he is a soldier. and at the time of the crusades, a lot of tronttna— of the crusades, a lot of fighting kings- of the crusades, a lot of fighting kings want to have a patron— fighting kings want to have a patron satnt— fighting kings want to have a patron satnt .— fighting kings want to have a patron saint, somebody who is a somber— patron saint, somebody who is a sottter ttte— patron saint, somebody who is a soldier like themselves. and so in soldier like themselves. and so tn tnat— soldier like themselves. and so tn tnat nay— soldier like themselves. and so tn tnat way be— soldier like themselves. and so in that way he goes on to have nutte— in that way he goes on to have autte an— in that way he goes on to have autte an arter— in that way he goes on to have quite an after story. so in 12 kytv— quite an after story. so in 12 kytv 12,— quite an after story. so in 12 tytv 12, 22,— quite an after story. so in 12 tytv 12, oz, 12,— quite an after story. so in 12 kyiv 12, 22, 12, 22- quite an after story. so in 12 kyiv 12, 22, 12, 22 under henry kyiv12, 22, 12, 22 under henry tne— kyiv12, 22, 12, 22 under henry tne tbtnt— kyiv12, 22, 12, 22 under henry be an, we— kyiv12, 22, 12, 22 under henry the third, we have— kyiv12, 22, 12, 22 under henry the third, we have the first royatty— the third, we have the first royally sponsor— the third, we have the first royally sponsor promotion of sant— royally sponsor promotion of satnt george,— royally sponsor promotion of saint george, a— royally sponsor promotion of saint george, a royal saint betore— saint george, a royal saint before that, _ saint george, a royal saint before that, the- saint george, a royal saint before that, the english royal satnt— before that, the english royal satnt ts— before that, the english royal saint is saint— before that, the english royal saint is saint edward . and it's saint is saint edward. and it's tnteresttno— saint is saint edward. and it's interesting, when— saint is saint edward. and it's interesting, when the king is rovmet— interesting, when the king is crowned on may— interesting, when the king is crowned on may the 6th, it will be tne— crowned on may the 6th, it will be me crown— crowned on may the 6th, it will be the crown of— crowned on may the 6th, it will be the crown of saint edward tnat-s— be the crown of saint edward tnat-s but— be the crown of saint edward tnat-s but on— be the crown of saint edward that's put on his— be the crown of saint edward that's put on his throne. but ttvart— that's put on his throne. but ttvart vas— that's put on his throne. but edward was not— that's put on his throne. but edward was not a warrior king. crusaders— edward was not a warrior king. crusaders wanted— edward was not a warrior king. crusaders wanted a warrior patron— crusaders wanted a warrior batron you— crusaders wanted a warrior batron you — crusaders wanted a warrior patron, you see. so in 1222, we nave— patron, you see. so in 1222, we nave tnts— patron, you see. so in 1222, we have this promotion of him. it's tnen— have this promotion of him. it's tnen obstet— have this promotion of him. it's tnen bretet ub— have this promotion of him. it's tnen broken up by— have this promotion of him. it's then picked up by edward the

tbtnb— then picked up by edward the aid, vvno-s— then picked up by edward the third, who's another warrior king— third, who's another warrior ttna tn— third, who's another warrior king in england in the 14th century,— king in england in the 14th century, ant— king in england in the 14th century, and by— king in england in the 14th century, and by henry the fifth in century, and by henry the fifth tn tne— century, and by henry the fifth tn tne btn— century, and by henry the fifth in the 15th century. and he's bromotet— in the 15th century. and he's promoted and— in the 15th century. and he's promoted and promoted. and the mea— promoted and promoted. and the ttea ot— promoted and promoted. and the ttea ot mm— promoted and promoted. and the idea of him being— promoted and promoted. and the idea of him being a soldier also ttebttne— idea of him being a soldier also ttebttna tne— idea of him being a soldier also fighting the dragon is very, very— fighting the dragon is very, very bobutar— fighting the dragon is very, very bobutar .— fighting the dragon is very, very popular. we know, for enamore— very popular. we know, for example, before the reformation .tnere— example, before the reformation .tnere are— example, before the reformation , there are what— example, before the reformation , there are what are called satnt— , there are what are called saint george's— , there are what are called saint george's writings . on the saint george's writings. on the zona— saint george's writings. on the zero ot— saint george's writings. on the zero ot abut— saint george's writings. on the 23rd of april, people come out tresset— 23rd of april, people come out dressed as— 23rd of april, people come out dressed as the _ 23rd of april, people come out dressed as the dragon. they see mm— dressed as the dragon. they see ntm ttt— dressed as the dragon. they see ntm tttt tne— dressed as the dragon. they see him kill the dragon. it's all true.— him kill the dragon. it's all true. rt-s— him kill the dragon. it's all true. us so— him kill the dragon. it's all true. it's so tremendously bobutar— true. it's so tremendously bobutar .— true. it's so tremendously bobutar . ant— true. it's so tremendously popular . and then at the popular. and then at the reformation, _ popular. and then at the reformation, it takes an absotute— reformation, it takes an absolute nosedive . kyiv because absolute nosedive. kyiv because basteatty— absolute nosedive. kyiv because basteatty tne— absolute nosedive. kyiv because basically the new— absolute nosedive. kyiv because basically the new protestants in tnatant— basically the new protestants in tnotant say,— basically the new protestants in england say, well, what's the evttenee — england say, well, what's the evidence for— england say, well, what's the evidence for this— england say, well, what's the evidence for this saint george? wnat— evidence for this saint george? wnat to— evidence for this saint george? wnat to we— evidence for this saint george? what do we actually really know about— what do we actually really know about ttme— what do we actually really know about him? and— what do we actually really know about him? and suddenly the thin basts— about him? and suddenly the thin basis becomes— about him? and suddenly the thin basis becomes his— about him? and suddenly the thin basis becomes his biggest aentttes— basis becomes his biggest achilles heel.— basis becomes his biggest achilles heel. so it's not the dragon— achilles heel. so it's not the traoon tnat-s— achilles heel. so it's not the dragon that's the _ achilles heel. so it's not the dragon that's the problem for satnt— dragon that's the problem for satnt george.— dragon that's the problem for saint george. it's— dragon that's the problem for saint george. it's the fact that we ton-t— saint george. it's the fact that we don't know— saint george. it's the fact that we don't know enough about him. and we don't know enough about him. ant tn— we don't know enough about him. ant tn boz— we don't know enough about him. and in 1552, he's— we don't know enough about him. and in 1552, he's taken away trom— and in 1552, he's taken away trom tne— and in 1552, he's taken away from the celebration of saints. rt-s— from the celebration of saints. rt-s teettet— from the celebration of saints. it's decided we— from the celebration of saints. it's decided we don't know enouan— it's decided we don't know enough about— it's decided we don't know enough about him. we're not too

about— enough about him. we're not too sure about these _ enough about him. we're not too sure about these saints anyway. ant— sure about these saints anyway. ant tn— sure about these saints anyway. ant tn tne— sure about these saints anyway. and in the reformation , his and in the reformation, his career collapses— and in the reformation, his career collapses . in the 17th career collapses. in the 17th century,— career collapses. in the 17th century, tt— career collapses. in the 17th century, it fights— career collapses. in the 17th century, it fights back a bit tovarts— century, it fights back a bit towards the _ century, it fights back a bit towards the end of the 19th century— towards the end of the 19th century ant— towards the end of the 19th century and into the 20th century.— century and into the 20th century. rt-s— century and into the 20th century. it's on- century and into the 20th century. it's on a bit more of a tort. — century. it's on a bit more of a tort. but— century. it's on a bit more of a tort. but be— century. it's on a bit more of a roll. but he never— century. it's on a bit more of a roll. but he never has quite the pr roll. but he never has quite the rt bust— roll. but he never has quite the pr push behind— roll. but he never has quite the pr push behind him that saint ratnet— pr push behind him that saint ratnet ant— pr push behind him that saint patrick and sir— pr push behind him that saint patrick and sir david and saint andrew,— patrick and sir david and saint antrevv vvno— patrick and sir david and saint andrew, who never went to soottant,— andrew, who never went to scotland, had _ andrew, who never went to scotland, had behind him . so scotland, had behind him. so bere— scotland, had behind him. so nere ve— scotland, had behind him. so here we have— scotland, had behind him. so here we have the— scotland, had behind him. so here we have the fascinating ntstory— here we have the fascinating ntstory ot— here we have the fascinating history of saint— here we have the fascinating history of saint george over the nunetes— history of saint george over the nunetes .— history of saint george over the nunetes , a— history of saint george over the centuries , a few— history of saint george over the centuries , a few ups, a few centuries, a few ups, a few towns— centuries, a few ups, a few tovns ant— centuries, a few ups, a few downs and certainly not quite the downs and certainly not quite be not— downs and certainly not quite be not butte— downs and certainly not quite the not quite the— downs and certainly not quite the not quite the royally sbonsoret— the not quite the royally sponsored saint that he once was betore— sponsored saint that he once was betore tne— sponsored saint that he once was before the reformation, when satnt— before the reformation, when satnt george— before the reformation, when saint george seems to have tatten— saint george seems to have tatten by— saint george seems to have fallen by the _ saint george seems to have fallen by the wayside. let me bung— fallen by the wayside. let me bring tn— fallen by the wayside. let me bring in emily carver very, very briefly. emily do you think that there's something a bit cringey about wrapping yourself in a in about wrapping yourself in a in a flag and celebrating a in a flag and celebrating saint george's day? well, i must admit, emma, that i am very patriotic. btec having grown patriotic. btec but having grown up tn— patriotic. btec but having grown up tn tn— patriotic. btec but having grown up tn tn bonn— patriotic. btec but having grown up in in north london,- t btec but having grown up in in north london, it wasn't reatty— up in in north london, it wasn't reatty tne— up in in north london, it wasn't really the done— up in in north london, it wasn't really the done thing . no really the done thing. no ttaobote— really the done thing. no ttaobote tn— really the done thing. no flagpole in the garden , no flagpole in the garden, no vavtna— flagpole in the garden, no vavtne ot— flagpole in the garden, no waving of the— flagpole in the garden, no waving of the flag. but you know

unatt— waving of the flag. but you know vvnate r— waving of the flag. but you know vvnate r nutte— waving of the flag. but you know what? i quite like— waving of the flag. but you know what? i quite like it when otters— what? i quite like it when otners to— what? i quite like it when others do it.— what? i quite like it when others do it. but i don't think you-t— others do it. but i don't think you-t eaten— others do it. but i don't think you'd catch me— others do it. but i don't think you'd catch me with one wrapped aromat— you'd catch me with one wrapped arount rm— you'd catch me with one wrapped around me. “g around me. i'm tarnishing your reputation by putting darren grimes, tarnishing my reputation . darren grimes is flag. i must add.he . darren grimes is flag. i must add. he managed to find one. thank you. thank you so much, emily, for joining thank you. thank you so much, emily, forjoining me. thank you. thank you so much, emily, forjoining me . and thank emily, for joining me. and thank you, historian and author martin whittock. thank you so much for your time today. you've been watching commonsense watching calvin's commonsense crusade , emma webb. crusade with me, emma webb. calvin will be back with you next saturday at 7 pm. next up, it's the saturday oh five. but before that, here is your weather forecast. saint george . weather forecast. saint george. pray for us. de asphalt . hello pray for us. de asphalt. hello there. very pray for us. de asphalt. hello tnere. very toot— elfin 'jri; hello there. very good evening. vveteome— there. very good evening. welcome to— there. very good evening. welcome to your latest weather ubtate— welcome to your latest weather ubtate trom — welcome to your latest weather update from the— welcome to your latest weather update from the met office. i'm ronatnan— update from the met office. i'm jonathan bawtree._ update from the met office. i'm jonathan bawtree. a mixture of sovversn— jonathan bawtree. a mixture of sovversn ant— jonathan bawtree. a mixture of showers and longer spells of ram— showers and longer spells of to— showers and longer spells of to greet— showers and longer spells of rain to greet us— showers and longer spells of rain to greet us throughout suntay. — rain to greet us throughout suntay. att— rain to greet us throughout sunday. all thanks to low pressure being— sunday. all thanks to low pressure being in charge of our veatner— pressure being in charge of our veatner ant— pressure being in charge of our weather and bringing us retattvety— weather and bringing us relatively unsettled conditions. tne— relatively unsettled conditions. the - relatively - relatively unsettled conditions. the relatively spaced the isobars relatively spaced out— the isobars relatively spaced out across much— the isobars relatively spaced out across much of northern rretant— out across much of northern rretant ant— out across much of northern ireland and england and wales and ireland and england and wales ant tnto— ireland and england and wales and into southern— ireland and england and wales and into southern scotland. so

vvtnts— and into southern scotland. so vtnts vttt— and into southern scotland. so winds will remain— and into southern scotland. so winds will remain relatively bant— winds will remain relatively light—saturday. light throughout saturday eventna— light throughout saturday evening and— light throughout saturday evening and that will just allow someltnese— evening and that will just allow some .these bands- evening and that will just allow some these bands of rain to some of these bands of rain to be retattvety— some of these bands of rain to be relatively slow— some of these bands of rain to be relatively slow moving erg the be relatively slow moving erg tne-one— be relatively slow moving erg the-one pushing- be relatively slow moving erg the one pushing into areas the main one pushing into areas of the main one pushing into areas ot-tnetant— the main one pushing into areas ot-tnetant as- the main one pushing into areas of-england as we- the main one pushing into areas of england as we head of southern england as we head towards—tne- of southern england as we head towards—the night.- towards later on in the night. but— towards later on in the night. but oeneratty— towards later on in the night. but generallyllot- towards later on in the night. but generally lot of cloud but generally a lot of cloud arount— but generally a lot of cloud arountlvve— but generally a lot of cloud around-we head- but generally a lot of cloud around we head throughout it around as we head throughout it and around as we head throughout it ant-bott— around as we head throughout it and hold temperatures and that will hold temperatures up around— and that will hold temperatures up around-e c— and that will hold temperatures up around .6 c for- and that will hold temperatures up around 6 c for most, but up around 5 or 6 c for most, but bernabs— up around 5 or 6 c for most, but bernabs tonn— up around 5 or 6 c for most, but perhaps down into— up around 5 or 6 c for most, but perhaps down into low single tteures— perhaps down into low single figures where— perhaps down into low single figures where . do - perhaps down into low single figures where do some figures where we do see some snetter— figures where we do see some snetter-sbots- figures where we do see some shelter-spots .- figures where we do see some shelter-spots . so- shelter in rural spots. so a otouty— shelter in rural spots. so a etouty start— shelter in rural spots. so a cloudy start to _ shelter in rural spots. so a cloudy start to sunday morning ant— cloudy start to sunday morning ant tnts— cloudy start to sunday morning and this band— cloudy start to sunday morning and this band of— cloudy start to sunday morning and this band of rain in the soutn— and this band of rain in the soutn ts— and this band of rain in the south is going— and this band of rain in the south is going to push its way tnto— south is going to push its way tnto tne— south is going to push its way into the south—east. so worth a vaten— into the south—east. so worth a vaten botnt— into the south—east. so worth a warm botntlyou— into the south—east. so worth a watch point you are running watch point if you are running the-marathon.- watch point if you are running the-marathon. it- watch point if you are running the marathon. it could be the london marathon. it could be ratner— the london marathon. it could be ratner-some— the london marathon. it could be rather-some sharp- the london marathon. it could be rather some sharp showers rather wet, some sharp showers tevetobtna— rather wet, some sharp showers developing perhaps rather wet, some sharp showers devvery ng perhaps rather wet, some sharp showers devvery ng rumbletrhaps rather wet, some sharp showers dev very ng rumble ofaps the very isolated rumble of tnunter— the very isolated rumble of tnunter tn— the very isolated rumble of thunder in mixture those as thunder in mixture of those as vett— thunder in mixture of those as web. runner— thunder in mixture of those as well. further rain— thunder in mixture of those as well. further rain pushing its way— well. further rain pushing its way tnto— well. further rain pushing its way into northeast scotland and mm— way into northeast scotland and tnat-vtntry— way into northeast scotland and that-wintry over- way into northeast scotland and that wintry over the that could fall wintry over the meter— that could fall wintry over the meber—see- that could fall wintry over thei higher—see some higher ground as we see some totter— higher ground as we see some cotter-tte— higher ground as we see some eotterltta tts— higher ground as we see some colder dig its from colder air dig its way in from tne— colder air dig its way in from be nonn— colder air dig its way in from the north-really- colder air dig its way in from the north really feeling the north and really feeling muon— the north and really feeling much colder— the north and really feeling much colder compared to where we nave— much colder compared to where we nave been— much colder compared to where we nave been ot— much colder compared to where we have been of late,— much colder compared to where we have been of late, though , have been of late, though, sovversn— have been of late, though, showers will— have been of late, though, showers will generally ease off as-tnto— showers will generally ease off as-tnto tne— showers will generally ease off as into the overnight as we head into the overnight benot. — as we head into the overnight bertot. ant— as we head into the overnight period. and that— as we head into the overnight period. and that will allow more in period. and that will allow more tn tne— period. and that will allow more tn be way— period. and that will allow more tn be way ot— period. and that will allow more in the way of spells to in the way of clear spells to tevetob. — in the way of clear spells to tevetonla— in the way of clear spells to develop. a slightly chillier develop. so a slightly chillier mant— develop. so a slightly chillier ntabtleome— develop. so a slightly chillier night-come as— develop. so a slightly chillier night come as head into

night to come as we head into tne—ot— night to come as we head into tne—ot trontay- the early hours of monday morntne. — the early hours of monday. morning. _frost the early hours of monday- morning._frost here the early hours of monday- morthere,_frost here the early hours of monday- morthere, but-frost here the early hours of monday morthere, but we've frost here the early hours of monday morthere, but we've gotost here the early hours of monday morthere, but we've got furthers and there, but we've got further ram— and there, but we've got further rain—northern- rain pushing from northern rretant— rain pushing from northern ireland-wales- rain pushing from northern ireland wales and down into ireland into wales and down into soutnern— ireland into wales and down into southern areas— ireland into wales and down into southern areas england southern areas of england tnrouanout— southern areas of england- throughout—showers throughout the morning. showers still streaming— throughout the morning. showers still streaming their way in across northern— still streaming their way in across northern areas of soottant— across northern areas of scotland falling asleep across northern areas of- scotland-falling asleep and scotland now falling asleep and hail scotland now falling asleep and bar to— scotland now falling asleep and bar to tower— scotland now falling asleep and hail to lower levels, even here ant— hail to lower levels, even here ant-vtntry— hail to lower levels, even here and _wintry ness- hail to lower levels, even here and wintry ness pushing and some wintry ness pushing tnto— and some wintry ness pushing tnto easte— and some wintry ness pushing into eastern coast— and some wintry ness pushing into eastern coast as well. it is into eastern coast as well. it ts easte— into eastern coast as well. it is eastern coast— into eastern coast as well. it is eastern coast that will see tne— is eastern coast that will see tne strongest— is eastern coast that will see the strongest winds throughout brontay— the strongest winds throughout trontay vvnere— the strongest winds throughout monday where those isobars are sttabtty— monday where those isobars are slightly squeezed _ monday where those isobars are slightly squeezed together . but slightly squeezed together. but a-nten— slightly squeezed together. but a-ntan pressure- a ridge of high pressure buttttna— a ridge of high pressure building tuesday a ridge of high pressure building-tuesday help building in for tuesday to help settte— building in for tuesday to help settte tntnes— building in for tuesday to help settle things down at least. but tnere— settle things down at least. but mere-ntst— settle things down at least. but tnere-nst ot— settle things down at least. but there risk of further there is the risk of further ram— there is the risk of further ram-neat- there is the risk of further rain head towards rain as we head towards vvetnestay— rain as we head towards wednesday and temperatures are still wednesday and temperatures are stttt torna— wednesday and temperatures are still going-below- wednesday and temperatures are still going below average wednesday and temperatures are stilthe ing below average wednesday and temperatures are stilthe time below average wednesday and temperatures are stilthe time of below average wednesday and temperatures are stilthe time of year ow average wednesday and temperatures are stilthe time of year .w average

well . it's 9:00 and this

well. it's 9:00 and this is mark botan— well. it's 9:00 and this is mark dolan tonight. _ well. it's 9:00 and this is mark dolan tonight. in— well. it's 9:00 and this is mark dolan tonight. i“ zrg well. it's 9:00 and this is mark dolan tonight. i“ g i“ dolan tonight. in my big opinion , woke former tory party leader william hague has told women to get over it when biological males join female only groups, including the women's institute. i'll be dealing with that prize numpty in just a couple of minutes in the big story, we'll be remembering the late, great comic genius barry humphries, the man behind housewife turned superstar dame edna everage. in my superstar dame edna everage. in my take at ten, i'll be tackling meghan markle, whose attacks on the country continue the just stop oil protesters who need to grow up and get a job and why britain need to start making babies again. britain need to start making babies again . rest assured, babies again. rest assured, watching this programme is the ultimate aphrodisiac. so big guests, big stories and big opinions i'll be dealing with that abject fool , william hague that abject fool, william hague after the headlines with good old ray .