soon well, i soon - well, good lsoon— well, good morning . isoon— well, good morning . happy lsoon— well, good morning . happy saint well, good morning. happy saint george-s— well, good morning. happy saint george-s day— well, good morning. happy saint george-s day to— well, good morning. happy saint george's day to you . can i just george's day to you. can i just say— george's day to you. can i just say how— george's day to you. can i just say how delighted— george's day to you. can i just say how delighted i am to be presenting— say how delighted i am to be presenting this— say how delighted i am to be presenting this show and not running—7- presenting this show and not. running_.7 although presenting this show and not- running_.7 although i'd running a marathon? although i'd like-give— running a marathon? although i'd “kelgive a— running a marathon? although i'd like-give a quick— running a marathon? although i'd like give a quick out like to give a quick shout out to—be- like to give a quick shout out to—be ofl to chris hope, soon to be of this— to chris hope, soon to be of this parish— to chris hope, soon to be of this parish .— to chris hope, soon to be of this parish . he's- to chris hope, soon to be of this parish . he's to to chris hope, soon to be of this parish . he's-to gb this parish. he's going to be gb news— this parish. he's going to be gb news-editor— this parish. he's going to be gb news-editor here- this parish. he's going to be gb news editor here in news political editor here in about— news political editor here in about tatt— news political editor here in about half hour's time. we'll about half an hour's time. we'll be about half an hour's time. we'll te-tte— about half an hour's time. we'll be -the streets- be pounding the streets of tendon.— be pounding the streets of. london._well. london. so we wish him well. now:— london. so we wish him well.

now, ton-t— london. so we wish him well. now, tent to— london. so we wish him well. now, don't go anywhere, because we—tettet- now, don't go anywhere, because we_better show. we couldn't have a better show unet— we couldn't have a better show ttnet—not- we couldn't have a better show lined—not least- we couldn't have a better show lined—not least to. lined up for you, not least to ttssett— lined up for you, not least to dissect what's— lined up for you, not least to dissect what's happened to oomtntt— dissect what's happened to dominic—weekl dissect what's happened to| dominic—week. dissect what's happened to- dominic_week . david dominic raab in the week. david oats,— dominic raab in the week. david newt—tower- davis, who was raab's former toss,— davis, who was raab's former toss, ts— davis, who was raab's former boss ts gstng— davis, who was raab's former boss, is going to— davis, who was raab's former boss, is going to be joining me in boss, is going to be joining me tn-stutts— boss, is going to be joining me tn-stutts tn— boss, is going to be joining me in-studio in a— boss, is going to be joining me in-studio in a very- boss, is going to be joining me in studio in a very short in the studio in a very short wttts— in the studio in a very short wttts ,— in the studio in a very short while , oliver— in the studio in a very short while , oliver dowden, the new while, oliver dowden, the new tsputy— while, oliver dowden, the new tsputy tttms— while, oliver dowden, the new deputy prime minister who's tspttsst— deputy prime minister who's. replaced—position , replaced raab in that position, is replaced raab in that position, ts ttss— replaced raab in that position, ts ttss gstng— replaced raab in that position, is also going to— replaced raab in that position, is also going to be joining us wttt— is also going to be joining us wttt-wttt— is also going to be joining us with with jonathan with along with jonathan astwsrtts— with along with jonathan ashworth, shadow secretary of stats — state for work and pensions. tes— state for work and pensions. hes-ts— state for work and pensions. ts-s-ts ts— state for work and pensions. he's to be talking he's going to be talking about what— he's going to be talking aboutj what—stout what labour plans to do about tntttttsts— what labour plans to do about inflation,_food- inflation, particularly food tntttttsts— inflation, particularly food inflation, which i know is tttssttng— inflation, which i know is affecting everybody . went to the affecting everybody. went to the supermarket— affecting everybody. went to the supermarket the _ affecting everybody. went to the supermarket the other day and affecting everybody. went to the supecompletelye other day and affecting everybody. went to the supecompletely astonished and was completely astonished by the pttss— was completely astonished by the pttsslstssss— was completely astonished by the price lcheese and _ was completely astonished by the price cheese and bread and price of cheese and bread and mut— price of cheese and bread and mtttlsuts— price of cheese and bread and milk. -sure you've- price of cheese and bread and milk. sure you've seen the milk. i'm sure you've seen the . ant— milk. i'm sure you've seen the same . and-going- milk. i'm sure you've seen the same . and going be same. and we're going to be spstttng— same. and we're going to be speaking penman speaking to dave penman now. ttts— speaking to dave penman now. ttts ts— speaking to dave penman now. this is interesting— speaking to dave penman now. this is interesting because he's generat— this is interesting because he's general secretary— this is interesting because he's general secretary of fda general secretary of the fda union, which raab is accused of ssnsptttng— union, which raab is accused of conspiring against— union, which raab is accused of conspiring against him. so i'm going— conspiring against him. so i'm gstng ts— conspiring against him. so i'm gstng tolasking_ conspiring against him. so i'm going to asking penman , going to be asking mr penman, toot,— going to be asking mr penman, test are— going to be asking mr penman, toot, tts— going to be asking mr penman, look, are the civil— going to be asking mr penman, look, are the civil service tmpttttttt— look, are the civil service impartial? minister, impartial? is yes, minister, a comet— impartial? is yes, minister, a ssmsty st— impartial? is yes, minister, a ssmsty or t— impartial? is yes, minister, a comedy or a documentary? we'll find— comedy or a documentary? we'll ttnt sut— comedy or a documentary? we'll find out later.— comedy or a documentary? we'll find out later. let's— comedy or a documentary? we'll find out later. let's just take you— find out later. let's just take you through— find out later. let's just take you through the— find out later. let's just take you through the front pages. tttst— you through the front pages. tttst-tsts-s- you through the front pages. first-here's the- you through the front pages. first here's the sunday first of all, here's the sunday tstsgtspt— first of all, here's the sunday tstsgtapt ant— first of all, here's the sunday telegraph and their front page goss— telegraph and their front page goes wttt— telegraph and their front page goes wttt tto — telegraph and their front page goes with the migration story, wttot— goes with the migration story, wttot keep5_ goes with the migration story, which keeps on— goes with the migration story, which keeps on running and tunntng— which keeps on running and running-course,- which keeps on running and running course, braverman, which keeps on running and runrready course, braverman, which keeps on running and runrready to>urse, braverman, which keeps on running and runrready to defy, braverman, which keeps on running and

runrready to defy judges'man, which keeps on running and runrready to defy judges on n, i'm ready to defy judges on mtgtonts— i'm ready to defy judges on migrants, she— i'm ready to defy judges on migrants, she says. we've got too— migrants, she says. we've got the suntoy— migrants, she says. we've got the sunday times gone for tntotosttng— the sunday times gone for interesting story. it's a little bit interesting story. it's a little ttt ott— interesting story. it's a little ttt ott tho— interesting story. it's a little bit off the beaten track. this ostent— bit off the beaten track. this weekend, but— bit off the beaten track. this weekend, but it's mi6 spy sent to tttottst— weekend, but it's mi6 spy sent to jihadist camps— weekend, but it's mi6 spy sent to jihadist camps killed own otto— to jihadist camps killed own otttt. tt— to jihadist camps killed own otttt. tt ts— to jihadist camps killed own child. it is a— to jihadist camps killed own child. it is a fascinating read there— child. it is a fascinating read there to— child. it is a fascinating read there by gabriel— child. it is a fascinating read there by gabriel pogrund and i recommend it.— there by gabriel pogrund and i recommend it. the observer goes wttt— recommend it. the observer goes wttt tory— recommend it. the observer goes wttt toty otto— recommend it. the observer goes wttt toty pton to— recommend it. the observer goes with tory plan to politicise otvtt— with tory plan to politicise civil service— with tory plan to politicise civil service after raab scandal . wett— civil service after raab scandal . wott, they-vo— civil service after raab scandal . well, they've got— civil service after raab scandal . well, they've got an op ed by ttonots— . well, they've got an op ed by francis maude,— . well, they've got an op ed by francis maude, who's the former party— francis maude, who's the former potty oottmon— francis maude, who's the former party chairman, talking about whether— party chairman, talking about whether there— party chairman, talking about whether there should be more pottttoot— whether there should be more political appointments. i'm going— political appointments. i'm gotng to— political appointments. i'm gotng to to— political appointments. i'm going to be discussing that in just—tho- going to be discussing that in just—the mirror,- just a moment. the mirror, johnson-s— just a moment. the mirror, johnson's-and- just a moment. the mirror, johnson's and knight hall johnson's fork and knight hall at tons— johnson's fork and knight hall at tons tot— johnson's fork and knight hall at lone pal sevilla. boris johnson— at lone pal sevilla. boris johnson ts— at lone pal sevilla. boris johnson is committed the crime, ooootttng— johnson is committed the crime, ooootttng to— johnson is committed the crime, according to the— johnson is committed the crime, according to the mirror of going on totttoy— according to the mirror of going on totttoy ot— according to the mirror of going on holiday at somebody else's otto— on holiday at somebody else's vttto. too-vo— on holiday at somebody else's villa. we've got— on holiday at somebody else's villa. we've got the sunday express— villa. we've got the sunday toptoss gotng— villa. we've got the sunday express going with activist otvtt— express going with activist civil servants,— express going with activist civil servants, target suella ttts— civil servants, target suella ttts ts— civil servants, target suella this is warnings— civil servants, target suella this is warnings that perhaps otvtt— this is warnings that perhaps civil servants— this is warnings that perhaps civil servants will try and get in civil servants will try and get to tho— civil servants will try and get to the way— civil servants will try and get to the way ot— civil servants will try and get in the way of her— civil servants will try and get in the way of her migrant plans otter— in the way of her migrant plans ottot they-vo— in the way of her migrant plans after they've managed to see off oomtnto— after they've managed to see off oomtnto toot— after they've managed to see off dominic raab mail— after they've managed to see off dominic raab mail on sunday. tottomtst— dominic raab mail on sunday. extremist vile— dominic raab mail on sunday. extremist vile plot to spook ttno-s— extremist vile plot to spook ttno-s tosos— extremist vile plot to spook king's horses with rape alarms.

atom,— king's horses with rape alarms. aootn, tho— king's horses with rape alarms. again, the mail— king's horses with rape alarms. again, the mail on sunday has tntttttotot— again, the mail on sunday has infiltrated some— again, the mail on sunday has infiltrated some of these protest— infiltrated some of these protest groups. they did the wttt— protest groups. they did the same with the— protest groups. they did the same with the forewarning of the grott— same with the forewarning of the grand national— same with the forewarning of the grand national a— same with the forewarning of the grand national a couple of weeks ago grand national a couple of weeks ooo-tto— grand national a couple of weeks ooo-tto son— grand national a couple of weeks ooo-tto son on— grand national a couple of weeks ago the sun on sunday. ago and the sun on sunday. s—otot— ago and the sun on sunday. s—club rachel's— ago and the sun on sunday. s—club rachel's ice lover, which too— s—club rachel's ice lover, which to sue— s—club rachel's ice lover, which too wttt— s—club rachel's ice lover, which i'm sure will captivate imaginations- i'm sure will captivate imaginations over the breakfast totte— imaginations over the breakfast totto ttts— imaginations over the breakfast table this morning. now for the paper— table this morning. now for the poor ot— table this morning. now for the paper ot you,— table this morning. now for the paper ot you, too— table this morning. now for the paper of you, i'm delighted to be paper of you, i'm delighted to to joined— paper of you, i'm delighted to to joined ty— paper of you, i'm delighted to be joined by giles kenningham. tos— be joined by giles kenningham. to-s o— be joined by giles kenningham. to-s o totmot— be joined by giles kenningham. he's a former downing street toot— he's a former downing street. toot—otter head of communications under oovtt— head of communications under oovtt comoton— head of communications under david cameron, and he's the presenter— david cameron, and he's the presenter-o— david cameron, and he's the presenter-a new- david cameron, and he's the presenter a new podcast presenter of a new podcast oottot— presenter of a new podcast called _ flacks. presenter of a new podcast called—flacks .i presenter of a new podcast- called_flacks . giles, called hacks and flacks. giles, tow— called hacks and flacks. giles, tow oo— called hacks and flacks. giles, tow you— called hacks and flacks. giles, tou you t— called hacks and flacks. giles, how are you ? good, how are you? how are you? good, how are you? tovoty— how are you? good, how are you? tovoty to— how are you? good, how are you? tovoty to so— how are you? good, how are you? lovely to see you. _ how are you? good, how are you? lovely to see you. let's get sttotott— lovely to see you. let's get straight-raab- lovely to see you. let's get straight raab because you straight into raab because you outto— straight into raab because you were quite fascinated by this. tootots— were quite fascinated by this. francis maude— were quite fascinated by this. francis maude op ed in the otsowot— francis maude op ed in the otsotvot .— francis maude op ed in the observer . he— francis maude op ed in the observer . he says, we've lost observer. he says, we've lost tototoo— observer. he says, we've lost tototoo tn— observer. he says, we've lost balance in the— observer. he says, we've lost balance in the civil service. tt-s— balance in the civil service. tt-s-to— balance in the civil service. tt-s-to tott- balance in the civil service. it's-to help find- balance in the civil service. it's to help find it it's my job to help find it ooott— it's my job to help find it again because— it's my job to help find it again because he's carrying out an investigation— again because he's carrying out an investigation into of an investigation into all of ttoso— an investigation into all ofj ttoso—yout these matters. what's your toottto— these matters. what's your toottto ot— these matters. what's your reading of resignation these matters. what's your- reading of-resignation ? reading of raab's resignation? i reading of raab's resignation? . tttut— reading of raab's resignation? i think fundamentally,- reading of raab's resignation? i think fundamentally, the- reading of raab's resignation? i think fundamentally, the civil service does need a huge overhaul. we can't have a system where ministers are accountable for everything for officials and everything they do, officials aren't they do, but officials aren't accountable to the minister . and accountable to the minister. and i think francis maude is looking at this. and you have in

america, i think they have 4000 political appointees in australia, permanent secretaries allowed to take political allowed to take a political position if ministers are to actually push through some quite radical reforms . you radical progressive reforms. you need the political will of the party on the table and you have seen situations that seen situations where that hasn't case or it's hasn't been the case or it's done i think for you know, done for, i think for you know, for two well, at least for the past two well, at least for the past two well, at least for one of previous home for one of the previous home secretaries, rudd. so secretaries, amber rudd. so i think interesting think it'll be interesting to see think see what happens. i think also you have civil service you have to have a civil service where fired. you where people can be fired. you know do remember know, i do remember instances when was in government of when i was in government of poorly performing civil servants who moved sideways or were who had moved sideways or were promoted yes. to get rid of them for failure. and wouldn't for failure. and that wouldn't happen of happen in any other walk of life. in general, what's life. and in general, what's your raab? i mean, did your view of raab? i mean, did your view of raab? i mean, did you wort— your view of raab? i mean, did you wort tutt— your view of raab? i mean, did you work with him _ your view of raab? i mean, did you work with him in- your view of raab? i mean, did you work with him in a- , t“ i mean, did you work with him in a close capacity?— you work with him in a close capacity?lvou_ you work with him in a close capacity? you think he's a capacity? do you think he's a buy? — capacity? do you think he's a buy? ._ capacity? do you think he's a bully? i didn't— capacity? do you think he's a bully? i didn't work- capacity? do you think he's a bully? i didn't work with him, but look, i actually think he's probably been quite hard done by. i suspect a lot of public sentiment will be with him. yes, probably his manner was probably too abrupt at times . is did that too abrupt at times. is did that actually warrant him being

fired? i mean, look, we've now seen that there have been instances the civil instances of what the civil servants and there servants were doing. and there was an example of one was certainly an example of one of massively of the diplomats massively overreached , being didn't a overreached, being didn't have a democratic mandate to there. and also civil servants actively briefing against raab. so is there going to be an investigation into that? what's going ? also, you worked going on there? also, you worked in going on there? also, you worked to tumor— going on there? also, you worked to tutor to,— git g cit" stitzfi’ also, you worked in number 10, presumably gtit g cit" stifti?’ also, you worked in number 10, presumably it's outto— in number 10, presumably it's outto o— in number 10, presumably it's outto o totust— in number 10, presumably it's quite a robust atmosphere . i quite a robust atmosphere. i wouttt-t— quite a robust atmosphere. i wouldn't imagine that during some -fallout- wouldn't imagine that during some fallout from the some of the fallout from the tototottum— some of the fallout from the referendum -thatl some of the fallout from the referendum that you referendum campaign that you tttt-t— referendum campaign that you tttt-t tovo— referendum campaign that you didn't have-likes- referendum campaign that you didn't have likes of david didn't have the likes of david cottotot— didn't have the likes of david cameron—being. didn't have the likes of david. cameron _ being quite cameron and others being quite ttoot— cameron and others being quite ttoot tutt— cameron and others being quite direct with staff. _ cameron and others being quite direct with staff. i— cameron and others being quite direct with staff. i mean, isn't too— direct with staff. i mean, isn't too ttts— direct with staff. i mean, isn't there this sort— direct with staff. i mean, isn't there this sort of— direct with staff. i mean, isn't there this sort of atmosphere ttoso— there this sort of atmosphere wtoto poopto-s— there this sort of atmosphere where people's work is closely sotuttttsot— where people's work is closely scrutinised-the— where people's work is closely scrutinised the civil scrutinised like the civil sotvtoo— scrutinised like the civil sotvtoo tt— scrutinised like the civil service in any- scrutinised like the civil service in any organisation, any toots— service in any organisation, any torts-ttoto-s— service in any organisation, any works-there'slclear- works where there's a clear sense-decision- works where there's a clear sense decision making, where sense of decision making, where poooto— sense of decision making, where poopto ttou— sense of decision making, where poopto toot-tto- sense of decision making, where people know the boss people know what the boss ttttts — people know what the boss thinks, -there - people know what the boss thinks, -there is- people know what the boss thinks, there is a sense of thinks, and there is a sense of momentum and— thinks, and there is a sense of momentum and you need that . momentum and you need that. ottotwtso— momentum and you need that. otherwise-bureaucracy- momentum and you need that. otherwise the bureaucracy takes over. yeah, otherwise the bureaucracy takes over . yeah, i otherwise the bureaucracy takes over. yeah, i think it's also tttotosttto— over. yeah, i think it's also interesting how— over. yeah, i think it's also interesting how it- yeah, i think it's also interesting how it casts light interesting how it casts a light on interesting how it casts a light ot-ttoo— interesting how it casts a light ot-ttoo ,— interesting how it casts a light ot-ttoo , os— interesting how it casts a light on-idea , as you- interesting how it casts a light on idea , as you say, of on this idea, as you say, of mtttstots— on this idea, as you say, of ministers being— on this idea, as you say, of ministers being accountable, otttouot— ministers being accountable, although _thatl although we could say that ministerial— although we could say that ministerial responsibility is ooost— ministerial responsibility is erodes somewhat since the 1980s. but erodes somewhat since the 1980s. tut otso— erodes somewhat since the 1980s. tut otso ttts— erodes somewhat since the 1980s. but also this idea— erodes somewhat since the 1980s. but also this idea that the out— but also this idea that the civil service—

but also this idea that the civil service ,_ but also this idea that the civil service , i— but also this idea that the civil service , i mean, are they civil service, i mean, are they tmootttot— civil service, i mean, are they impartial there _ civil service, i mean, are they impartial there was a quote in the impartial there was a quote in tto woot— impartial there was a quote in the week saying,— impartial there was a quote in the week saying, you know, it's just— the week saying, you know, it's tust o— the week saying, you know, it's tust o tottooy— the week saying, you know, it's just a fallacy to— the week saying, you know, it's just a fallacy to suggest that out— just a fallacy to suggest that otvtt—toto- just a fallacy to suggest thati civil—take their civil servants don't take their ootsotot— civil servants don't take their personal—work. civil servants don't take their. personal—work with civil servants don't take their persorwe've work with civil servants don't take their persorwe've seen work with civil servants don't take their persorwe've seen from trk with civil servants don't take their persorwe've seen from the /ith civil servants don't take their persorwe've seen from the sue them. we've seen from the sue troy— them. we've seen from the sue gray appointment— them. we've seen from the sue gray appointment course gray appointment that, of course ttoy— gray appointment that, of course ttoy-otyt— gray appointment that, of course they-own leanings.- they had their own leanings. tutot-s— they had their own leanings. tutot-s-ot- they had their own leanings. what's of working they had their own leanings.- what's-of working with what's your view of working with ttoso— what's your view of working with these officials— what's your view of working with these officials i— what's your view of working with these officials i to— what's your view of working with these officials i to i? look, ttoso— these officials i to i? look, ttoto oo— these officials i to i? look, there are some— these officials i to i? look, there are some brilliant civil sotvotts— there are some brilliant civil servants-tend- there are some brilliant civili servants-tendlget there are some brilliant civil- servants-tendlget the servants and you tend to get the tost— servants and you tend to get the tost-uumtot— servants and you tend to get the best-number 10. - servants and you tend to get the best number 10. best ones in number 10. the foreign— best ones in number 10. the foreign office— best ones in number 10. the foreign office treasury. but foreign office and treasury. but you do have civil servants you do have some civil servants who , which i who have an agenda, which i think why you need think is why you need more political appointees who can then push through the then help push through the minister's through the minister's agenda, through the department. because about department. because think about the which the amount of time which is wasted civil wasted fighting with the civil service to try get your service to try and get your reforms through. when they're blocking things. and we are living world now where living in a world now where disruption happening lot disruption is happening a lot more, of is more, the pace of change is quicker . so civil quicker. and so the civil service need to service and government need to reflect that. well, let's on reflect that. well, let's go on to-stoty— reflect that. well, let's go on to-stoty-stotyi to the next story, policy story of_course , is- of the day, of course, is about mtotottot. —ts- of the day, of course, is about migration. _is on. of the day, of course, is abouti migration. _is on the migration. braverman is on the trott— migration. braverman is on the ttott ot— migration. braverman is on the ttott ot tto— migration. braverman is on the front of the sunday telegraph totttto— front of the sunday telegraph talking about— front of the sunday telegraph talking about defying judges on mtototts— talking about defying judges on mtototts .— talking about defying judges on migrants . there's— talking about defying judges on migrants . there's also a piece migrants. there's also a piece in migrants. there's also a piece tt—txptoss- migrants. there's also a piecei in_express quoting in the sunday express quoting ottot—uottl in the sunday express quoting ottot—wott ,| other tory mps saying, well, ttts— other tory mps saying, well, ttts ts— other tory mps saying, well, this is where— other tory mps saying, well, this is where civil service this is where the civil service utt— this is where the civil service wit-toot.— this is where the civil service will-next. they'll- this is where the civil service will next. they'll try and will turn next. they'll try and took— will turn next. they'll try and

block-migration- will turn next. they'll try and block migration reforms. block her migration reforms. ooos— block her migration reforms. does seem . be _ block her migration reforms. does seem be that anybody does seem to be that anybody tto-s— does seem to be that anybody uto-so—- who's trying to push a controversial- who's trying to push a controversial policy or at least a controversial policy or at least o potty— controversial policy or at least o pottoy ttot— controversial policy or at least a policy that-not- controversial policy or at least a policy that not be a policy that might not be poputot— a policy that might not be poputot-tottl a policy that might not be popular left, seems a policy that might not be- popular-left, seems to popular with the left, seems to ooto—toot.- popular with the left, seems toi come—look, this come unstuck. yeah. look, this i think , is an which think, is an issue which massively resonates with the public. i think the tories have got public on their got public sentiment on their side . one of rishi sunak side. it's one of rishi sunak five pledges. and think, you five pledges. and i think, you know , as braverman of maps know, as braverman kind of maps out in the telegraph today, if we are to have sovereignty as a country, should able country, then we should be able to judges. so you to defy, defy the judges. so you know, big fight gearing but know, big fight gearing up, but probably i would probably a fight that i would think relishing. think that she'll be relishing. how damaging has it how damaging, damaging has it toot— how damaging, damaging has it toot tot— how damaging, damaging has it toot tot tto— how damaging, damaging has it been for the tories to have this ousotot— been for the tories to have this accusation of— been for the tories to have this accusation of 13— been for the tories to have this accusation of 13 years and youo— accusation of 13 years and you've-nothing- accusation of 13 years and you've nothing ? boats accusation of 13 years and- you've-nothing ? boats going you've done nothing? boats going trom— you've done nothing? boats going tom zoo— you've done nothing? boats going tom zoo ott— you've done nothing? boats going from 290 and 2019— you've done nothing? boats going from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last yooto— from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last yooto ._ from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last yooto . moot— from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last yooto . ,— from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last year? i mean , they— from 290 and 2019 to 45,000 last year? i mean , they haven't got year? i mean, they haven't got a grip— year? i mean, they haven't got a out on— year? i mean, they haven't got a out on ttts.— year? i mean, they haven't got a out on ttts. vou— year? i mean, they haven't got a grip on this. you could say even the grip on this. you could say even tto otovtous— grip on this. you could say even the previous tory— grip on this. you could say even the previous tory administration tttt-t— the previous tory administration tttt-t tovo— the previous tory administration tttt-t havelgrip_ the previous tory administration didn't have grip it. why is didn't have a grip on it. why is it didn't have a grip on it. why is ttltttttoutt— didn't have a grip on it. why is it.difficult to— didn't have a grip on it. why is it.difficult to get— didn't have a grip on it. why is it difficult to get this it so difficult to get this otottom — it so difficult to get this problem solved? no, problem solved? giles no, i ttttt— - problem solved? giles no, i ttttt— ltosl problem solved? giles no, i- think_ lhas been. think you're right. it has been. tot-s— think you're right. it has been. let's damaging, let's be honest, it is damaging, which one of the which is why it's one of the five clearly five pledges. clearly it's coming focus groups . i coming up in the focus groups. i think been an issue think there has been an issue here for lot of time. it was here for a lot of time. it was

like, politically like, oh, it's too politically sensitive to talk about immigration. sensitive to talk about immigration . well, actually, sensitive to talk about immigrwant . well, actually, sensitive to talk about immigrwant an'ell, actually, sensitive to talk about immigrwant an honestually, people want an honest conversation . and been conversation. and it has been the that has the case that france has basically had, suppose, basically had, i suppose, an issue like , let them go issue of like, let them go to let to uk and let them go to the uk and england. and let's remember like someone or someone seeking asylum or refugee going to the first refugee is going to the first safe place. now often that is not the uk, that is france and there has been a sense of them, not pulling weight. not really pulling their weight. so something so i do think it is something which need on top which they need to get on top of. election defining of. is it election defining this? i of say this? i mean, lots of people say if this? i mean, lots of people say tt—stoo— this? i mean, lots of people say tt—stoo-toots- if they don't stop the boats, ttoyto— if they don't stop the boats, ttoyto tot— if they don't stop the boats, they're not going to win in zoos — they're not going to win in 2024. ithink— they're not going to win in 2024. ithink it- they're not going to win in 2024. ithink it is- they're not going to win in- 2024. ithink it is politically. 2024. i think it is politically. yeah, potato one yeah, it's a hot potato and one they're going get on they're going to have to get on top of. let's have look the top of. let's have a look at the otoottots— top of. let's have a look at the otoottots. 0t— top of. let's have a look at the elections. of course,— let's have a look at the elections. of course, the elections. of course, it's the tooot—ttoy- elections. of course, it's the tooot—ttoy tto| local elections on may the out — local elections on may the fourth. _been- local elections on may the fourth. been said about fourth. a lot's been said about utottot— fourth. a lot's been said about. wtottot—somo whether they're going to be some soot— whether they're going to be some secret- between _ whether they're going to be some secret between labour and, secret pacts between labour and, say,— secret pacts between labour and, soyo—— secret pacts between labour and, soy. tto— secret pacts between labour and, say,_or the liberal- say, the greens or the liberal tomootots.— say, the greens or the liberal democrats. liberal democrats . i democrats. liberal democrats. i did democrats. liberal democrats. i tto tosottto— democrats. liberal democrats. i did describe-last- democrats. liberal democrats. i did describe last week as did describe them last week as a bit did describe them last week as a tut-stood,— did describe them last week as a ttt-soottot,-soyi bit lesser spotted, just to say we bit lesser spotted, just to say uolost— bit lesser spotted, just to say wolost ttom— bit lesser spotted, just to say we.ask them on- bit lesser spotted, just to say we ask them on this show they we do ask them on this show they tot-t— we do ask them on this show they tout-to— we do ask them on this show they tot-t-to oo— we do ask them on this show they don't-to come on,— don't want to come on, they tot-t— don't want to come on, they toot-spook- don't want to come on, they. don't-speak-dup don't want to speak to the dup viewers or indeed listeners. oooy. — viewers or indeed listeners. oooy. ito — viewers or indeed listeners. otoylto topo- viewers or indeed listeners. okay. to hope persuade sir ed okay. we to hope persuade sir ed oovoy— okay. we to hope persuade sir ed oovoy-oottt— okay. we to hope persuade sir ed oovoy-oottt to- okay. we to hope persuade sir ed davey - point to sit - okay. we to hope persuade sir ed davey point to sit in davey at some point to sit in ttts— davey at some point to sit in ttts-must— davey at some point to sit in this-must just- davey at some point to sit in this must just point this chair. i must just point ttot— this chair. i must just point that-because- this chair. i must just point that-because we- this chair. i must just point that because we have tried that out because we have tried wtot-s— that out because we have tried wtot-s going— that out because we have tried wtot-s going on— that out because we have tried what's going on here, because

the what's going on here, because tto—suooostttol what's going on here, because the suggesting that the observer is suggesting that too— the observer is suggesting that there-progressive- the observer is suggesting that there progressive pact in there is a progressive pact in tottsttto— there is a progressive pact in berkshire in— there is a progressive pact in berkshire in a— there is a progressive pact in berkshire in a bid to oust totos— berkshire in a bid to oust totos .— berkshire in a bid to oust tories . what's- berkshire in a bid to oust tories . what's going on? g tories. what's going on? saying i tories. what's going on? saying . tttut— tories. what's going on? saying i think bracknell, which is a tory held council that the lib dems , the greens labour have dems, the greens and labour have formed some so they're dems, the greens and labour have forn standingt so they're dems, the greens and labour have forn standing in so they're dems, the greens and labour have fornstanding in certain they're dems, the greens and labour have fornstanding in certain wardsa not standing in certain wards basically try and ask the basically to try and ask the tories. and suppose the big tories. and i suppose the big question will this be question is will this be replicated at a general election? mean, kind of election? i mean, people kind of forget has got forget that keir starmer has got a electoral mountain to a huge electoral mountain to climb. to get climb. i think he's going to get 120 seats. very difficult to do it one cycle and it would be it in one cycle and it would be interesting to see like, will they form pact the lib they form a pact with the lib dems davies be on the dems now? ed davies be on the broadcast this morning. broadcast airwaves this morning. he is not ruled out a pact with labour and i could see a situation where potentially lib dems only really properly fight 100 seats at election. they'll probably put up paper candidates in of seats . but if in some of these seats. but if you in of you think about it, in some of the potential kind of red wall seats where, you know, some of the votes would to the lib dem votes would go to labour probably labour and similarly, probably in the south—west and in some of the dominic the surrey seats, they dominic raab vulnerable raab seat, which is vulnerable to dem, he even stand

to lib dem, will he even stand again? he won't. i again? i suspect he won't. i suspect that may go dem suspect that may well go lib dem in cycle. that they do. suspect that may well go lib dem in do cycle. that they do. suspect that may well go lib dem in do unofficialt they do. suspect that may well go lib dem in do unofficial pactyl do. suspect that may well go lib dem in do unofficial pact to o. they do an unofficial pact to get over the line, but then starmer will be emboldened by the poor performance of snp, the poor performance of the snp, which imploding. which is currently imploding. humza yousaf is nicknamed humza vousot— humza yousaf is nicknamed humza vousot uttz— humza yousaf is nicknamed humza vousot uttz uo— humza yousaf is nicknamed humza yousaf ulez up there, so they're going— yousaf ulez up there, so they're ooto to— yousaf ulez up there, so they're going to to— yousaf ulez up there, so they're going to be wanting to win at toost— going to be wanting to win at toost tot— going to be wanting to win at least ten seats— going to be wanting to win at least ten seats in— going to be wanting to win at least ten seats in scotland, wttot— least ten seats in scotland, uttot tutt— least ten seats in scotland, which will help— least ten seats in scotland, which will help over the which will help them over the tto—tott- which will help them over the line—won't it?| line in westminster, won't it? toot,— line in westminster, won't it? toot-too— line in westminster, won't it? toot-too soot- line in westminster, won't it? yeah, i've seen i've seen yeah, i mean i've seen i've seen sot— yeah, i mean i've seen i've seen sottlttoutos— yeah, i mean i've seen i've seen sottlttoutosluo— yeah, i mean i've seen i've seen sort.figures.up.20. - sort of figures of up to 20. t hey— sort of figures of up to 20. ttoy toy— sort of figures of up to 20. they may benefit- sort of figures of up to 20. they may benefit from - sort of figures of up to 20. they may benefit from in scotland. you're right, scotland. yeah, you're right, they emboldened by that. they will be emboldened by that. but very difficult. but still very difficult. and i think economy comes back think if the economy comes back by time the next general by the time the next general election let's remember it's election and let's remember it's labour's achilles heel, still labour's achilles heel, i still think you could see a 92 situation where the tories scrape over the line. starmer it remains is very untested. we've not seen him in a campaigning kind of environment and i don't think he's particularly light on his particularly agile . i his feet, particularly agile. i don't think shines at pmqs. don't think he shines at pmqs. so the still out so i think the jury is still out on there was polling, on him. there was some polling, wasn't people what wasn't there, to ask people what wasn't there, to ask people what was phrase that they thought was the phrase that they thought of were of first when they were asked about was don't about labour? and it was don't know. —

about labour? and it was don't know. -wtot— about labour? and it was don't know. what does he stand know. well, what does he stand for? the big idea? we for? what's the big idea? we sort of don't it's not really like 1997 where he's like a 1997 situation where he's sort of riding this wave of sort of riding this huge wave of he's not exactly 92 and 97 demarcation is interesting . demarcation is interesting. let's go to 2019 and remember the let's go to 2019 and remember tto mot— let's go to 2019 and remember tto oto— let's go to 2019 and remember the man who did— let's go to 2019 and remember the man who did get the tories tto— the man who did get the tories tto tto— the man who did get the tories over the line with— the man who did get the tories over the line with an 80 seat mototty— over the line with an 80 seat mototty, tots— over the line with an 80 seat majority, boris johnson. now ttoto-s— majority, boris johnson. now ttoto-s o— majority, boris johnson. now there's a new— majority, boris johnson. now there's a new book out by antony— there's a new book out by anthony seldon , funny enough, anthony seldon, funny enough, uoto—ot-stowi we're having him on the show toot— we're having him on the showi next _ interested next week. so really interested to-tto— next week. so really interested to-tto tttty— next week. so really interested to-the nitty gritty- next week. so really interested to the nitty gritty what to hear the nitty gritty of what to-s— to hear the nitty gritty of what tos-out— to hear the nitty gritty of what to-s-out .— to hear the nitty gritty of what he's-out . what- to hear the nitty gritty of what he's out . what found he's found out. what i found tttotosttto— he's found out. what i found interesting sunday interesting about the sunday ttmos— interesting about the sunday times, which— interesting about the sunday times, which serialising this times, which is serialising this otooo—out- piece and they've put the tootttto— piece and they've put the headline _thel piece and they've put the- headline—the covm headline trapped in the covid tuttou— headline trapped in the covid bunker,-about- headline trapped in the covid bunker, about boris bunker, talking about boris iottsot-s— bunker, talking about boris johnson's handling or mishandling of the pandemic is the mishandling of the pandemic is tto-ttot— mishandling of the pandemic is the-that michael- mishandling of the pandemic is the that michael gove has the fact that michael gove has ooto— the fact that michael gove has ooto-tto— the fact that michael gove has gone .the record _ the fact that michael gove has gone .the record to - the fact that michael gove has gone the record to talk to gone on the record to talk to sottot — gone on the record to talk to sottot tt— gone on the record to talk to seldon in this— gone on the record to talk to seldon in this book, not casting tots— seldon in this book, not casting tots tt— seldon in this book, not casting tots t o— seldon in this book, not casting boris in a particularly good tott— boris in a particularly good ttott. att— boris in a particularly good ttott. ant ot— boris in a particularly good light. and of course, who is he tototto— light. and of course, who is hei banging—dominic banging the drum for? dominic oummttos— banging the drum for? dominic cummings yeah,— banging the drum for? dominic cummings yeah, i— banging the drum for? dominic cummings yeah, i mean, this book so tou— cummings yeah, i mean, this book so too ._ cummings yeah, i mean, this book so too . ttttt— cummings yeah, i mean, this book so far, i think there's— cummings yeah, i mean, this book so far, i think there's been two sot—tt— so far, i think there's been two sot—tn tto- so far, i think there's been two sort—in the times. sort of extracts in the times ott— sort of extracts in the times ott tto— sort of extracts in the times and the sunday— sort of extracts in the times and the sunday times paints a ptotuto— and the sunday times paints a ototuto ot— and the sunday times paints a picture of utter— and the sunday times paints a picture of utter dysfunction in uumtot— picture of utter dysfunction in uumtot tot,— picture of utter dysfunction in number ten, and— picture of utter dysfunction in number ten, and it's run like a mottoovot— number ten, and it's run like a mediaeval court. _ number ten, and it's run like a mediaeval court. i think the

latest extract today talks about the breakdown of the relationship between johnson and cummings , but also between cummings, but also between matt hancock as well, about how they tried circumnavigate him by tried to circumnavigate him by appointing people appointing external people coming in, cummings tried to coming in, how cummings tried to keep johnson out of certain meetings . so i have to say, with meetings. so i have to say, with all of really for politico all of this really for politico is gripping reading. but is really gripping reading. but is really gripping reading. but is remotely surprised ? we is anyone remotely surprised? we all know that boris sort of governed in a way, governed in a chaotic way, and now borne out and now it's been borne out and played out. and in this book, finally, charles, do you think it mistake the tories finally, charles, do you think it oust mistake the tories finally, charles, do you think it oust boris ake the tories finally, charles, do you think it oust boris johnson he tories finally, charles, do you think it oust borisjohnson ? iories finally, charles, do you think it oust borisjohnson ? i mean, to oust boris johnson? i mean, how do you think— to oust boris johnson? i mean, how do you think rishi- "�* i mean, how do you think rishi is doing 7 —uotug- how do you think rishi is doing 7 _doing tot- how do you think rishi is doingi ? _doing not badly. ? i think he's doing not badly. he calm things he certainly calm things down. he's technocratic he's very much a technocratic approach. but what we haven't seen from him yet is the big idea. what does he stand for? we've the five pledges which we've got the five pledges which all sense. what's all make sense. but what's the big vision , you big overarching vision, you know, to with this level of know, to deal with this level of disruption what's going on disruption and what's going on in think we've disruption and what's going on in got think we've disruption and what's going on in got to think we've disruption and what's going on in got to see think we've disruption and what's going on in got to see thatik we've disruption and what's going on in got to see that . we've disruption and what's going on in got to see that . butve disruption and what's going on in got to see that . but as still got to see that. but as i said, think he's helped the said, i think he's helped by the fact opposition fact that he's got an opposition leader who is eminently beatable . indeed, sir, thank you very muot— . indeed, sir, thank you very much indeed— . indeed, sir, thank you very much indeed ,_ indeed, sir, thank you very much indeed , giles kenningham, much indeed, giles kenningham,

for much indeed, giles kenningham, tot—ttts— much indeed, giles kenningham, for—this morning- much indeed, giles kenningham, for—this morning .- forjoining me this morning. now:— forjoining me this morning. tout—ot- forjoining me this morning.| uoto—to tows forjoining me this morning.- now,_gb news is now, tom harwood gb news is toouty— now, tom harwood gb news is toputy pottttoot— now, tom harwood gb news is deputy political editor, editor is deputy political editor, editor ts tt— deputy political editor, editor is in cambridge.— deputy political editor, editor is in cambridge. tom very tttttouot— is in cambridge. tom very intrigued to— is in cambridge. tom very intrigued to know what the good poooto— intrigued to know what the good poopto ot— intrigued to know what the good people of cambridge want me to ask people of cambridge want me to ost totoy-s— people of cambridge want me to ask today's glittering array of oottttoot— ask today's glittering array of oottttoot-.— ask today's glittering array of political-. what- ask today's glittering array of political . what are they political guests. what are they soytto— political guests. what are they soytto-tom — political guests. what are they saying-tom yeah- political guests. what are they saying tom yeah , i am saying there? tom yeah, i am tttoot— saying there? tom yeah, i am tttoot tt— saying there? tom yeah, i am indeed in cambridge in signorelli's_ indeed in cambridge in signorelli's deli, a beautiful ttttto— signorelli's deli, a beautiful little delicatessen here in the toott— little delicatessen here in the toott ot— little delicatessen here in the heart of cambridge. 't: heart of cambridge. and i'm delighted. first of all, to be joined by alex, the owner of this establishment. first of this establishment. and first of all, alex, how's business doing? well, been challenging well, what's been challenging times it's not times at the moment, it's not the and it doesn't seem the easiest and it doesn't seem to getting easier the easiest and it doesn't seem to the getting easier the easiest and it doesn't seem to the moment. s0|g easier the easiest and it doesn't seem to the moment. so it'sasier the easiest and it doesn't seem to the moment. so it's very at the moment. so it's very touot— at the moment. so it's very touot-otoot- at the moment. so it's very tough-aheadlus,. tough times ahead of us, unfortunately. _ tough times ahead of us, unfortunately. yeah. suppose unfortunately. yeah. i suppose ototoy— unfortunately. yeah. i suppose energy—particularl energy costs are of particular . toot,— energy costs are of particular concern . yeah, just energy energy costs are of particular conceibutyeah, just energy energy costs are of particular conceibut the i, just energy energy costs are of particular conceibut the labourist energy energy costs are of particular conceibut the labour costiergy energy costs are of particular conceibut the labour costiethe costs, but the labour cost, the wtoto — costs, but the labour cost, the| wtoto —toxos whole infrastructure, the taxes . tt-s— whole infrastructure, the taxes . to just— whole infrastructure, the taxes . tt-s tust yory— whole infrastructure, the taxes . it's just very, very challenging across every single ototo— challenging across every single ototo ttot— challenging across every single angle that operate in. �*ftt�*tigl angle that we operate in. well, it angle that we operate in. well, tt toots— angle that we operate in. well, tt toots tto— angle that we operate in. well, it looks like you're— angle that we operate in. well, it looks like you're doing pretty well. it's a beautiful delicatessen we're in right delicatessen that we're in right now. you much now. so thank you so much for your hospitality, and your hospitality, motty and i'll let to work , but let you get back to work, but thank . let's have a look at thank you. let's have a look at the panel now and what the good people of cambridge have to say

today, very today, because it's been a very busy week. let's start busy political week. let's start off with mike. mike, you've lived in cambridge for quite a while now. originally from manchester, though . how do you manchester, though. how do you feel? going in feel? everything's going in terms of the way the country is run ? well, tom, i'm i'm very run? well, tom, i'm i'm very ttsoppotttot. — run? well, tom, i'm i'm very disappointed. i'm- 7 well, tom, i'm i'm very disappointed. stiflitit: 7 well, tom, i'm i'm very disappointed. tftf.?”tiilt§ 7 well, tom, i'm i'm very disappointed. i ”cc c disappointed. i'm scared. it keeps me up at night. if i'm not quite honest with you. the continual , the state of continual turmoil, the state of the and the prospect for the economy and the prospect for my children growing up in this country, i'm worried about it . country, i'm worried about it. well, let's move on to hillary tout—you- well, let's move on to hillaryi well, let's move on to hillary. now, because, hillary, you are, i now, because, hillary, you are, t tottovo— now, because, hillary, you are, t tottovo, o— now, because, hillary, you are, i believe, a member of the conservative _ i believe, a member of the conservative party . and how do conservative party. and how do you— conservative party. and how do you toot— conservative party. and how do you toot ttttos— conservative party. and how do you feel things are going in touts— you feel things are going in totms ot— you feel things are going in terms of how— you feel things are going in terms of how the government is run terms of how the government is o— terms of how the government is 7 too— terms of how the government is 7 um um— terms of how the government is 7 um um ,— terms of how the government is run ? hm um , it's— terms of how the government is run ? hm um , it's difficult times run? hm um, it's difficult times ,voty— run? hm um, it's difficult times , yoty tttttoutt— run? hm um, it's difficult times , very difficult times. “tiiti; , very difficult times. there toye— , very difficult times. there tovo toot— , very difficult times. there tovo toot o— , very difficult times. there have been a lot— , very difficult times. there have been a lot of crises , a lot have been a lot of crises, a lot of change. i think it's hard for any government at this point. yeah. no, really big global issues, i suppose . i don't i issues, i suppose. i don't i don't hear long term vision coming from anybody . well, we'll coming from anybody. well, we'll get a bit coming from anybody. well, we'll got o ttt oo— coming from anybody. well, we'll get a bit more on— coming from anybody. well, we'll get a bit more on that— ti.ti.ti g : well, we'll get a bit more on that later. tot-s— get a bit more on that later. tot-s tutt— get a bit more on that later.

tot-s tum to — get a bit more on that later. let's turn to andrew because atttou, — let's turn to andrew because atttou, you — let's turn to andrew because andrew, you work in business and youo— andrew, you work in business and you got— andrew, you work in business and you got soo— andrew, you work in business and you've got some concerns around tusttoss — you've got some concerns around tusttoss toot— you've got some concerns around business. yeah i've— you've got some concerns around business. yeah i've just finding it business. yeah i've just finding tt toy,— business. yeah i've just finding tt yoty, yoty— business. yeah i've just finding tt yoty, yoty tougt— business. yeah i've just finding it very, very tough at the momott— it very, very tough at the moment they've it very, very tough at the momtup they've it very, very tough at the momtup astronomically they've it very, very tough at the momtup astronomically inthey've it very, very tough at the momtup astronomically in the 've gone up astronomically in the tutttttg— gone up astronomically in the tutttttg gomo— gone up astronomically in the building game . _ gone up astronomically in the building game . i: building game. um, compared tenants like kitchen units and that sort of stuff have absolutely formidably scary prices. it's very concerning for the small businessmen who's actually going to try and make headway . and i'm talking about headway. and i'm talking about the person between zero employees all the way up to 50. i think it's very important that we actually start looking forward and see what they've actually to say. mps in actually got to say. the mps in the future. yeah. and moving forward, we need to get get going and have some sort of strategy . so right, as mike said strategy. so right, as mike said , we need to move forwards and actually have some sort of context of where we're going forwards. big, forwards. of course, the big, big dominated the big story that's dominated the papers last couple of papers over the last couple of days resignation days has been the resignation of the former deputy prime minister. camilla will be spootttg— minister. camilla will be speaking-the- minister. camilla will be. speaking-the-deputy minister. camilla will be- speakinglthe-deputy prime speaking to the new deputy prime tttttstot— speaking to the new deputy prime tttttstotltust— speaking to the new deputy prime tttttstotltust o— speaking to the new deputy prime minister just a couple of minister in just a couple of mttutos— minister in just a couple of minutes time.— minister in just a couple of minutes time. i— minister in just a couple of minutes time. i wonder, first of all:— minutes time. i wonder, first of ott, tt— minutes time. i wonder, first of ott, tt wo— minutes time. i wonder, first of ott, t to on— minutes time. i wonder, first of all, if we can get— minutes time. i wonder, first of all, if we can get view of

all, if we can get a view of ttts— all, if we can get a view of ttts-you- all, if we can get a view of this-you think. all, if we can get a view of- this-you think dominic this panel. do you think dominic toot— this panel. do you think dominic toot os— this panel. do you think dominic toot o— this panel. do you think dominic raab was a bully— this panel. do you think dominic raab was a bully ?_ this panel. do you think dominic raab was a bully ? well we've raab was a bully? well we've toot— raab was a bully? well we've toot tootttg— raab was a bully? well we've been hearing more and more about how been hearing more and more about too tto— been hearing more and more about too tto outt— been hearing more and more about how the civil service— been hearing more and more about how the civil service have been toooo— how the civil service have been toooo oto— how the civil service have been become and, you— how the civil service have been become and, you know, it's their otooo— become and, you know, it's their otooo to— become and, you know, it's their ptooo to to— become and, you know, it's their place to do what— become and, you know, it's their place to do what the elected representative _ place to do what the elected representative takes as policy. i representative takes as policy. t tttut— representative takes as policy. t ttttt to— representative takes as policy. i think he was— representative takes as policy. i think he was ganged- representative takes as policy. i think he was ganged up- i think he was ganged up against. seems seems to be the point. the point . interesting. point. the point. interesting. atttow— point. the point. interesting. atttow utot— point. the point. interesting. andrew what do— point. the point. interesting. andrew what do you- interesting. andrew what do you make of that? tuott— andrew what do you make of that? you t— andrew what do you make of that? you t ttt— andrew what do you make of that? well i find the— andrew what do you make of that? well i find the whole scenario of well i find the whole scenario ot oomttto— well i find the whole scenario of dominic really— well i find the whole scenario of dominic really quite honestly , to-s— of dominic really quite honestly , he's now resigned. let's move tot-s— , he's now resigned. let's move on. let's get on with the game. we can't we can't carry on talking about it. he's resigned. he's gone. it's finished. and mike, your view ? i think he he mike, your view? i think he he was right that he's gone. i mean , you can tell from his demeanour in the house of commons the way he was winking at angela rayner that kind of behaviour, yeah. he's obviously not a suited to the modern not a man suited to the modern workplace. refused display workplace. he refused display the arrogance of refusing to learn mistakes. been learn from mistakes. he'd been warned and it's quite right that he's gone now. of course, it's

not— he's gone now. of course, it's not gust— he's gone now. of course, it's not tust tto— he's gone now. of course, it's not just the new— g of course, it's not just the new deputy prime tttttstot— not just the new deputy prime minister that— not just the new deputy prime minister that is— not just the new deputy prime minister that is on the show totoy— minister that is on the showj totoy—uott today. there's also the work and ootstots— today. there's also the work and pensions shadow— today. there's also the work and pensions shadow secretary jon astwottt— pensions shadow secretary jon astuottt .— pensions shadow secretary jon ashworth . he'll— pensions shadow secretary jon ashworth . he'll be talking a bit ashworth. he'll be talking a bit otout— ashworth. he'll be talking a bit about labour's— ashworth. he'll be talking a bit about labour's plan for inflation. _ about labour's plan for inflation. is— about labour's plan for inflation. is there question inflation. is there any question ttot— inflation. is there any question ttot-ot— inflation. is there any question ttot-ot you— inflation. is there any question that-of you three- inflation. is there any question that of you three want to that any of you three want to tttou— that any of you three want to throw-either— that any of you three want to throw either government throw at either the government tttttstot— throw at either the government tttttstot ot— throw at either the government minister or the— throw at either the government minister or the party's minister or the labour party's stotow— minister or the labour party's shadow minister— minister or the labour party's shadow minister today ? so. so my shadow minister today? so. so my gototto— shadow minister today? so. so my gototo guosttot— shadow minister today? so. so my generic question not necessarily otout— generic question not necessarily about inflation— generic question not necessarily about inflation per se, roll ttot— about inflation per se, roll ttot toto— about inflation per se, roll that into it— about inflation per se, roll that into it is— about inflation per se, roll that into it is about the long totm — that into it is about the long term thinking. _ that into it is about the long term thinking. so, you know, i'm disappointed in our parliamentary system where we don't think beyond five years these days . we don't think these days. we don't think beyond reacting to the latest crisis. so i'd like to hear from them about long term strategy and how we become less subject to this continuous churn , a lot to this continuous churn, a lot of churn. and i think that you two— of churn. and i think that you to woo— of churn. and i think that you two were nodding— ti and i think that you two were nodding along i. and i think that you two were nodding along to that. do two were nodding along to that. oo-ogtoo— two were nodding along to that. oo-ogtoo o — two were nodding along to that. do-agree ? yes,- two were nodding along to that. do agree ? t/ti;tit t:ti;�* " dint do you agree? yes, definitely. long, long term policy is what matters and long term vision. nobody's articulating it . it's nobody's articulating it. it's a big concern right now.- t: {weti�*c g e it's a big concern right now. well, we know— big concern right now. well, we know ttot— big concern right now. well, we know that we'll— big concern right now. well, we know that we'll be— big concern right now. well, we know that we'll be back to the too— know that we'll be back to the too ot— know that we'll be back to the too ot you — know that we'll be back to the three of you in— know that we'll be back to the three of you in a— know that we'll be back to the three of you in a moment. know that we'll be back to the three of you in a moment . we'll three of you in a moment. we'll ttstot— three of you in a moment. we'll ttstot tt— three of you in a moment. we'll ttstot to to— three of you in a moment. we'll listen in to these—

three of you in a moment. we'll listen in to these interviews ott— listen in to these interviews ott wtot— listen in to these interviews and what camilla has to say, pottoutotty— and what camilla has to say, particularly .this- and what camilla has to say, particularly this idea of particularly on this idea of tong— particularly on this idea of totg torm— particularly on this idea of long term vision. can any of the oottttotots— long term vision. can any of the politicians answer— long term vision. can any of the politicians answer that charge . politicians answer that charge. tony— politicians answer that charge. ttotyttouts— politicians answer that charge. many thanks for— politicians answer that charge. many thanks for that. - politicians answer that charge. many thanks for that. indeed tom will be coming back to cambridge a little later in the show. don't forget to apply to the people's panel. go to gb news .uk forward slash panel next week we're going in week we're going to be in cardiff. so you're in cardiff cardiff. so if you're in cardiff and a view, do and you've got a view, please do get in touch. now we're just waiting oliver dowden, the waiting for oliver dowden, the new deputy minister, to be new deputy prime minister, to be miked from position miked up from his live position . i'm to bring giles . i'm going to bring giles kenningham the kenningham back into the conversation a conversation because you're a former guy. know former number 10 guy. you know oliver well. do you oliver dowden well. what do you make appointment make of his appointment as deputy yeah deputy prime minister? yeah i think astute think it's an astute appointment. you know , he knows appointment. you know, he knows uumtot— appointment. you know, he knows tumor-you.— number 10 very well. he was cameron's deputy chief of staff, so-voty— cameron's deputy chief of staff, so-voty .— cameron's deputy chief of staff, so-voty , t— cameron's deputy chief of staff, so-very , i think,- so he'll be very, i think, tototut— so he'll be very, i think, helpful for— so he'll be very, i think, helpful for-to- so he'll be very, i think, helpful for to have him helpful for rishi to have him too— helpful for rishi to have him ttoto—tott- helpful for rishi to have him there—hand man,| there as his right hand man, totgttg— there as his right hand man, totpttg ttm — there as his right hand man, helping him with sort the helping him with sort of the mooottost— helping him with sort of the mechanics .the- helping him with sort of the mechanics the dynamics of mechanics and the dynamics of ttot-s— mechanics and the dynamics of utot-s—l mechanics and the dynamics of utot-s—, tuti what's going on. so, yeah, but tt-s— what's going on. so, yeah, but to o— what's going on. so, yeah, but to o voty— what's going on. so, yeah, but it's a very interesting move tooouso— it's a very interesting move. tooousooo—t because essentially he's been a toottoom— because essentially he's been a backroom - been - because essentially he's been a backroom been moving backroom boy. he's been moving to-to— backroom boy. he's been moving to-to trott— backroom boy. he's been moving to-to ttott ot— backroom boy. he's been moving to-to front of house- backroom boy. he's been moving to to front of house now. to move to front of house now. so to move to front of house now. soltot— to move to front of house now. soltot oo— to move to front of house now. so lot more scrutiny on so a lot more scrutiny on him. wett— so a lot more scrutiny on him. wot—tool so a lot more scrutiny on him. ttot—tot toti well, we thought it was bad for him was demoted from

him when he was demoted from party chairman to become a duchy chancellor of the duchy of lancaster or cdl as it's known. that michael gove's former that was michael gove's former role clearly a role. but clearly there's a kinship there with rishi sunak. i think long time closest i think he's a long time closest political . you know, we've political ally. you know, we've ttm — political ally. you know, we've ttm out— political ally. you know, we've seen him out on— political ally. you know, we've seen him out on the- e i you know, we've seen him out on the broadcast outts— seen him out on the broadcast rounds-morning.- seen him out on the broadcast rounds morning. very rounds this morning. he's very - to— rounds this morning. he's very - to usot- rounds this morning. he's very sure-. he used to- rounds this morning. he's very sure . he used to do pmqs sure footed. he used to do pmqs prep— sure footed. he used to do pmqs pop to— sure footed. he used to do pmqs prep for cameron— sure footed. he used to do pmqs prep for cameron ,_ sure footed. he used to do pmqs prep for cameron , no doubt will sure footed. he used to do pmqs prehelping meron , no doubt will sure footed. he used to do pmqs prehelping sunak, no doubt will sure footed. he used to do pmqs prehelping sunak ino doubt will sure footed. he used to do pmqs pre helping sunak in thatibt will sure footed. he used to do pmqs prehelping sunak in that role /ill be helping sunak in that role the..— be helping sunak in that role ttoto os— be helping sunak in that role there as well. _ be helping sunak in that role there as well. so— be helping sunak in that role there as well. so i think, yeah o-political_ there as well. so i think, yeah , political appointment , a big political appointment for , a big political appointment to smot— , a big political appointment for sunak, but— , a big political appointment for sunak, but he'll be a lot more tested— for sunak, but he'll be a lot more tested now.- for sunak, but he'll be a lot more tested now. lot more tested now. a lot more sotuttty. — more tested now. a lot more scrutiny. _he's- more tested now. a lot morei scrutiny. _he's ready more tested now. a lot more. scrutiny. _he's ready to scrutiny. charles he's ready to go.thank scrutiny. charles he's ready to go. thank you very much for joining me this morning. giles kenningham , the kenningham oliver dowden, the new prime minister, joins new deputy prime minister, joins me . oliver, thank very me now. oliver, thank you very much with us this much for being with us this morning. first of all, let's just deal with your new alert that's think at 3 that's coming out. i think at 3 pm. had some reports in the pm. we had some reports in the telegraph actually yesterday day suggesting that this alert system might be hacked. we've had a situation over in florida where people were woken up at 4:45 am. for nothing. are you worried about the security of this new alert system ? i'm no,

this new alert system? i'm no, i'm not. camilla. and actually, it is the case that this has been developed with the national cyber security centre, which forms part of gchq. there will be a very strict— [c q“ there will be a very strict procedures in otooo— be a very strict procedures in otooo tot— be a very strict procedures in ptooo tot tts— be a very strict procedures in place for its authorisation , and place for its authorisation, and it place for its authorisation, and tt tutt— place for its authorisation, and tt wttt otty— place for its authorisation, and it will only be— place for its authorisation, and it will only be used in a sttuottot— it will only be used in a situation where your viewers ttos— situation where your viewers ttvos — situation where your viewers ttvos tt— situation where your viewers lives are in danger. i'm determined— lives are in danger. i'm determined that there is a very ttgt— determined that there is a very ttgt tot— determined that there is a very ttgt to too— determined that there is a very high bar for the— determined that there is a very high bar for the usage of this . high bar for the usage of this. oooy— high bar for the usage of this. oooy — high bar for the usage of this. okay congratulations- high bar for the usage of this. okay g " high bar for the usage of this. okay g lift" i okay congratulations on your new role as deputy prime minister. what's your conclusion? having read adam tolley's report is dominic raab a bully? do you think ? well as you say, adam think? well as you say, adam dodi conduct did a very extensive investigation, a 48 pages of it. there's not a great toot— pages of it. there's not a great toot ttot— pages of it. there's not a great toot ttot t— pages of it. there's not a great deal that i can— pages of it. there's not a great deal that i can add— pages of it. there's not a great deal that i can add to- g e there's not a great deal that i can add to his very sooottto— deal that i can add to his very specific conclusions is what i woutt— specific conclusions is what i woutt soy— specific conclusions is what i woutt soy ts— specific conclusions is what i would say is that— specific conclusions is what i would say is that experience would say is that my experience of would say is that my experience ot wottttg— would say is that my experience of working with— would say is that my experience of working with raab and of working with dom raab and i pay-exampleo- of working with dom raab and i toy—oxomotoltoui of working with dom raab and i patconducts example, how of working with dom raab and i patconducts himself.)le, how of working with dom raab and i patconducts himself. when how of working with dom raab and i patconducts himself. when boris he conducts himself. when boris was he conducts himself. when boris voty— he conducts himself. when boris voty ttt— he conducts himself. when boris yoty it, wo— he conducts himself. when boris was very ill, we all— he conducts himself. when boris was very ill, we all remember ott— was very ill, we all remember ott t— was very ill, we all remember and i certainly— was very ill, we all remember and i certainly remember it very oott— and i certainly remember it very wottlstoopot—

and i certainly remember it very well,.stepped-the- and i certainly remember it very well, stepped the plate well, he stepped up to the plate ttot.— well, he stepped up to the plate ttot. to-s— well, he stepped up to the plate then. he's also— well, he stepped up to the plate then. he's also a— well, he stepped up to the plate then. he's also a man of his wort.— then. he's also a man of his uoto. att— then. he's also a man of his uoto. out to— then. he's also a man of his word. and he said that if there wosovotsolt— word. and he said that if there was adverse finding against was an adverse finding against him:— was an adverse finding against ttot-rostgt- was an adverse finding against ttot-rostgt .- was an adverse finding against him,-resign . and. was an adverse finding against him, resign . and that's him, he would resign. and that's oxootty— him, he would resign. and that's oxootty-toto.- him, he would resign. and that's exactly-done. and- him, he would resign. and that's exactly done. and the exactly what he's done. and the tumo— exactly what he's done. and the tttmo-tos— exactly what he's done. and the prime has accepted that prime minister has accepted that . tut— prime minister has accepted that . tut ts— prime minister has accepted that . tut ts to— prime minister has accepted that . tut ts to o— prime minister has accepted that . but is he a bully,— prime minister has accepted that . but is he a bully, though . as . but is he a bully, though. as i . but is he a bully, though. as t soy— . but is he a bully, though. as t soy to— . but is he a bully, though. as t soy to you— . but is he a bully, though. as t soy to you .— . but is he a bully, though. as i say to you , adam tully has i say to you, adam tully has toot— i say to you, adam tully has been through— i say to you, adam tully has been through all— i say to you, adam tully has been through all the facts of ttts.— been through all the facts of ttts. att— been through all the facts of ttts. att ty— been through all the facts of this. and by the— been through all the facts of this. and by the way, he's done it this. and by the way, he's done tt tt— this. and by the way, he's done tt to on— this. and by the way, he's done it in an anonymized way. so i tot-t— it in an anonymized way. so i tot-t ttot— it in an anonymized way. so i don't know the— it in an anonymized way. so i don't know the detailed facts of the don't know the detailed facts of tto — don't know the detailed facts of tto t— don't know the detailed facts of the case. i can— don't know the detailed facts of the case. i can only— don't know the detailed facts of the case. i can only rely on his otot— the case. i can only rely on his wtot to-s— the case. i can only rely on his what he's said.— the case. i can only rely on his what he's said. he's produced voy— what he's said. he's produced voty otoot— what he's said. he's produced very clear conclusions . dom what he's said. he's produced very clear conclusions. dom is a ot— very clear conclusions. dom is a ot tts— very clear conclusions. dom is a ot tts uoto— very clear conclusions. dom is a man of his word and said that if too— man of his word and said that if too ts— man of his word and said that if too ts ot— man of his word and said that if there is an adverse— man of his word and said that if there is an adverse finding ogottst— there is an adverse finding ogottst ttot— there is an adverse finding ogottst ttm .— there is an adverse finding against him , he would resign. against him, he would resign. att— against him, he would resign. att ttot-s— against him, he would resign. and that's exactly what he's ooto — and that's exactly what he's ooto .— and that's exactly what he's ooto . att — and that's exactly what he's ooto . att t— and that's exactly what he's done . and i think we're now in done. and i think we're now in tto— done. and i think we're now in the situation— done. and i think we're now in the situation where the case is ttot— the situation where the case is tttt ot— the situation where the case is kind of closed.— the situation where the case is kind of closed. we're we move on trom— kind of closed. we're we move on tom tt— kind of closed. we're we move on tom tt .— kind of closed. we're we move on tom tt . wat,— kind of closed. we're we move on from it . well, we— kind of closed. we're we move on from it . well, we can't really from it. well, we can't really move on from _ from it. well, we can't really move on from it,— from it. well, we can't really move on from it, can we? tooouso— move on from it, can we? tooouso ttt— move on from it, can we? because mr raab- move on from it, can we? because mr raab has- move on from it, can we? because mr raab has not gone quietly. he's made a number of allegations about the email partiality of the civil service . he's called for a leak inquiry

. presumably you would support a leak inquiry . mr dowden . well, leak inquiry. mr dowden. well, certainly it is the case, and i think that that was accepted in some of the report from torfaen has been said by dom as well. it is totally unacceptable if out— it is totally unacceptable if civil servants— it is totally unacceptable if civil servants are leaking or puttttg— civil servants are leaking or guttttg totso— civil servants are leaking or putting false narratives out toto— putting false narratives out ttto tto — putting false narratives out into the media.— putting false narratives out into the media. and i would oxooot— into the media. and i would oopoot tto— into the media. and i would expect the cabinet secretary to toot— expect the cabinet secretary to toot ttto — expect the cabinet secretary to look into that. _ expect the cabinet secretary to look into that. i— expect the cabinet secretary to look into that. i also , though, look into that. i also, though, i look into that. i also, though, t ttttt— look into that. i also, though, t ttttt tt-s— look into that. i also, though, i think it's the— look into that. i also, though, i think it's the case that the utoto— i think it's the case that the whole episode— i think it's the case that the whole episode has demonstrated to to— whole episode has demonstrated to to ttot— whole episode has demonstrated to to ttot uo— whole episode has demonstrated to me that we do— whole episode has demonstrated to me that we do need a clearer, stmotot— to me that we do need a clearer, stmotot ott— to me that we do need a clearer, simpler and fairer— to me that we do need a clearer, simpler and fairer investigation systott— simpler and fairer investigation systom, ott— simpler and fairer investigation systom, ott wo— simpler and fairer investigation system, and we will be looking tto— system, and we will be looking ttto oxootty— system, and we will be looking into exactly that— system, and we will be looking into exactly that .— system, and we will be looking into exactly that . _ system, and we will be looking into exactly that . jtit system, and we will be looking into exactly that . jtift system, and we will be looking into exactly that . jtit titgitini; into exactly that. do you agree with mr raab that there are perhaps activist civil servants who have been egged on by the fda to union make these claims against tories as. fda to union make these claims against tories as . well? that against tories as. well? that has not been my experience, but

what i would say coming out of this is i'm absolutely determined that, for example , determined that, for example, the sort of high standards that i expect out of civil servants who work for me should not be diluted in any way. and i think senior diluted in any way. and i think outt— diluted in any way. and i think senior civil servants,— t: _etit: " and i think senior civil servants, just like senior ministers— senior civil servants, just like senior ministers ,_ senior civil servants, just like senior ministers , need to senior ministers, need to tooogttso— senior ministers, need to recognise that- senior ministers, need to recognise that they are there to soto— recognise that they are there to sotvo tto — recognise that they are there to serve the british— recognise that they are there to serve the british people and the vost— serve the british people and the yost mototty— serve the british people and the vast majority of— serve the british people and the vast majority of civil servants ttot— vast majority of civil servants ttot too— vast majority of civil servants that i've worked— vast majority of civil servants that i've worked with . i that i've worked with. i understand— that i've worked with. i understand that and we cannot out ot— understand that and we cannot out ot ttts— understand that and we cannot out of this allow— understand that and we cannot out of this allow some kind of touotttg— out of this allow some kind of towotttg ot— out of this allow some kind of lowering of standards and the tumo— lowering of standards and the prime minister— lowering of standards and the prime minister and i are otsotutoty— prime minister and i are absolutely determine and to uotott— absolutely determine and to uptott tto— absolutely determine and to uphold the highest standards for the uphold the highest standards for tto outst— uphold the highest standards for the british people and to totustty— the british people and to robustly challenge our civil sototts— robustly challenge our civil sotvotts tt— robustly challenge our civil servants in an— robustly challenge our civil servants in an appropriate . servants in an appropriate. tosttot — servants in an appropriate. tosttot ts— servants in an appropriate. fashion is the- servants in an appropriate. fashion g servants in an appropriate.- fashion is the government better or worse off without . dominic or worse off without. dominic raab well, i, i worked with, with, with dominic a great deal and i think in terms of what he did both in the ministry of justice as the foreign secretary and particularly obe going back

to that time when boris was very ill, i always remember actually the cabinet secretary phoning us up to tell us that the prime minister was now in hospital. it was a was a real touch and go sttuottot— it was a was a real touch and go sttuottot tot— it was a was a real touch and go situation for a— it was a was a real touch and go situation for a time.— it was a was a real touch and go situation for a time. and dom ootmty— situation for a time. and dom ootmty ott— situation for a time. and dom calmly and confidently took ootttot— calmly and confidently took ootttot ot— calmly and confidently took control of the— calmly and confidently took control of the situation when tto— control of the situation when tto oouttty— control of the situation when the country was— control of the situation when the country was in a very tttttoutt— the country was in a very difficult position and i think we difficult position and i think to ttot— difficult position and i think we owe him a— difficult position and i think we owe him a debt of gratitude for we owe him a debt of gratitude to ttot— we owe him a debt of gratitude to wtot to— we owe him a debt of gratitude for what he did— we owe him a debt of gratitude for what he did during that time . so— for what he did during that time . so os— for what he did during that time . so os tto— for what he did during that time . so as the prime— for what he did during that time . so as the prime minister made a . so as the prime minister made o mtstoto— . so as the prime minister made o mtstoto tt— . so as the prime minister made a mistake in not— . so as the prime minister made a mistake in not insisting that he a mistake in not insisting that to stoys— a mistake in not insisting that to stoys ot— a mistake in not insisting that to stoys t— a mistake in not insisting that he stays on, i mean, is clearly a he stays on, i mean, is clearly o usotut— he stays on, i mean, is clearly a useful minister— he stays on, i mean, is clearly a useful minister. tiyiti�* a useful minister. adam tully talked about him putting in a shift. he works from 7:30 am. till ten, ten, 11 at night. i mean, he's clearly robust in his exercising over officials. whether or not you like his style. so what's rishi sunak doing here? he's just caved in to civil servants snowflakes, hasn't he . well, i. i know how

hasn't he. well, i. i know how tott— hasn't he. well, i. i know how tort oom— hasn't he. well, i. i know how hard dom worked.— e well, i. i know how hard dom worked. and indeed, ootttoty— hard dom worked. and indeed, ootttoty to— hard dom worked. and indeed, contrary to what— hard dom worked. and indeed, contrary to what some of your toy— contrary to what some of your viewers may think, many of us oto— viewers may think, many of us uto oo— viewers may think, many of us who are fortunate— viewers may think, many of us who are fortunate enough to hold ttgt— who are fortunate enough to hold high ministerial— who are fortunate enough to hold high ministerial office work, ttoso— high ministerial office work, ttoso potty— high ministerial office work, those pretty relentless hours to moto— those pretty relentless hours to make sure we're— those pretty relentless hours to make sure we're serving the outst— make sure we're serving the british people— make sure we're serving the british people .— make sure we're serving the british people . but one of the british people. but one of the characteristics— british people. but one of the characteristics of _ british people. but one of the characteristics of dom is he is a characteristics of dom is he is o ot— characteristics of dom is he is o ot tts— characteristics of dom is he is a man of his word— characteristics of dom is he is a man of his word and dom said ttot— a man of his word and dom said ttot tt— a man of his word and dom said ttot t g...— a man of his word and dom said that if there were _ a man of his word and dom said that if there were adverse ttttttgs— that if there were adverse findings against him, he would tostgu— findings against him, he would tostgt. att— findings against him, he would resign. and the— findings against him, he would resign. and the prime minister oooootot— resign. and the prime minister ooooptot ttot. — resign. and the prime minister accepted that. and i think that ttot-s— accepted that. and i think that ttot-s ttot-s— accepted that. and i think that that's that's where we are now. att— that's that's where we are now. out tto — that's that's where we are now. and the situation— that's that's where we are now. and the situation has kind of toot— and the situation has kind of been resolved— and the situation has kind of been resolved in— and the situation has kind of been resolved in that way . would been resolved in that way. would you tto— been resolved in that way. would you ttto to— been resolved in that way. would you ttto to soo— been resolved in that way. would you like to see him— been resolved in that way. would you like to see him return to ootttot— you like to see him return to ootttot ot— you like to see him return to cabinet at some— you like to see him return to cabinet at some point, you like to see him return to cabinet at some point , though . cabinet at some point, though. wat,— cabinet at some point, though. wag, too— cabinet at some point, though. well, i've learned— cabinet at some point, though. well, i've learned over the yoots— well, i've learned over the yoots ttot— well, i've learned over the years that the _ well, i've learned over the years that the decisions as to uto-s— years that the decisions as to uto-s tt— years that the decisions as to who's in cabinet,— years that the decisions as to who's in cabinet, who isn't in ootttot— who's in cabinet, who isn't in ootttot oo— who's in cabinet, who isn't in cabinet are solely— who's in cabinet, who isn't in cabinet are solely in the preserve— cabinet are solely in the ptosotyo ot— cabinet are solely in the preserve of the prime minister. tut— preserve of the prime minister. tut ttot— preserve of the prime minister. tut wtot t— preserve of the prime minister. tut wtot t to— preserve of the prime minister. but what i do know is that the tumo— but what i do know is that the prime minister— but what i do know is that the prime minister holds him in gtoot— prime minister holds him in great affection. _ prime minister holds him in great affection. so but that's a motor— great affection. so but that's a motor to— great affection. so but that's a matter for the— great affection. so but that's a matter for the prime minister.

deputy— matter for the prime minister. ooputy tumo— matter for the prime minister. deputy prime minister,- matter for the prime minister. deputy prime minister, does it worry you that we still have a situation where half of civil servants this is according to the government's own data , still the government's own data, still haven't returned their desks haven't returned to their desks since the pandemic. haven't returned to their desks since the pandemic . well, it's since the pandemic. well, it's always since the pandemic. well, it's otwoys toot— since the pandemic. well, it's otwoys toot my— ti.ti : i. well, it's always been my experience of young— always been my experience of wottttg .— always been my experience of wottttg . t— always been my experience of working . i certainly found this working. i certainly found this tutttg— working. i certainly found this tutttg tto— working. i certainly found this during the covid crisis. i had a tow— during the covid crisis. i had a tow toys— during the covid crisis. i had a tow toys ot— during the covid crisis. i had a few days of trying— during the covid crisis. i had a few days of trying to run a moto— few days of trying to run a major government department from the major government department from tto otovotttot— major government department from the proverbial spare— major government department from the proverbial spare bedroom ttot-s— the proverbial spare bedroom ttot-s toot— the proverbial spare bedroom that's been converted into an otttoo— that's been converted into an otttoo tot— that's been converted into an office for me— that's been converted into an office for me ,_ that's been converted into an office for me , it— that's been converted into an office for me , it just doesn't office for me, it just doesn't wort. — office for me, it just doesn't wort. att— office for me, it just doesn't wort. out you— office for me, it just doesn't work. and you need to have that tumot— work. and you need to have that human interaction.— work. and you need to have that human interaction. so certainly i human interaction. so certainly t sougtt— human interaction. so certainly t sougtt to— human interaction. so certainly i sought to return— human interaction. so certainly i sought to return from my core toot— i sought to return from my core toom toot— i sought to return from my core toom toot to— i sought to return from my core team back to the— i sought to return from my core team back to the office as topttty— team back to the office as topttty os— team back to the office as topttty os wo— team back to the office as rapidly as we can. and i think ootuotty— rapidly as we can. and i think ootuotty tot— rapidly as we can. and i think actually for young people, tovttg— actually for young people, toyttg tto— actually for young people, having the experience of working uttt— having the experience of working uttt ottot— having the experience of working with other people— having the experience of working with other people together is a way— with other people together is a woy ot— with other people together is a way of enhancing— with other people together is a way of enhancing their confidence— way of enhancing their confidence and enhancing ing ttot— confidence and enhancing ing ttot ootoots— confidence and enhancing ing their careers. and i think pottoutotty— their careers. and i think particularly in- their careers. and i think particularly in my younger years , tow— particularly in my younger years , tou muot— particularly in my younger years , how much pleasure, frankly, i got tom — , how much pleasure, frankly, i got from working— , how much pleasure, frankly, i got from working closely with

oottooguos— got from working closely with colleagues who _ got from working closely with colleagues who became friends ott— colleagues who became friends ott tto— colleagues who became friends and the creative— colleagues who became friends and the creative process that tottowot— and the creative process that followed from _ and the creative process that followed from it.— and the creative process that followed from it. now, of course, there's- followed from it. now, of course, there's always going to be circumstances— course, there's always going to be circumstances is fine be circumstances if it is fine to-ttom — be circumstances if it is fine to-from home,- be circumstances if it is fine to-from home, if- be circumstances if it is fine to from home, if you've got to work from home, if you've got soo—oi some detailed report to write or somottttg— some detailed report to write or somottttg-so- some detailed report to write or something so camilla, something like that. so camilla, just something like that. so camilla, tust tot— something like that. so camilla, tust tot mo— something like that. so camilla, just let me finish— something like that. so camilla, just let me finish this point, tooouso— just let me finish this point,i because—important because i think it's important gust—otootl just to be absolutely clear otout— about if you've got if you're ttot—ot- about if you've got if you're ttot—on o- about if you've got if you're. kind—on a complex kind of working on a complex ootot— kind of working on a complex tooott ot— kind of working on a complex report or something like that , report or something like that, it's-acceptable- it's perfectly acceptable to wort— it's perfectly acceptable to wort tom — it's perfectly acceptable to work from home on that basis. tut— work from home on that basis. tut my— work from home on that basis. but my disposition is that we stoutt— but my disposition is that we stoutt to— but my disposition is that we should be continuing the process of should be continuing the process ot-o— should be continuing the process ot-o ott— should be continuing the process of-more and more- should be continuing the process of more and more people of getting more and more people toot— of getting more and more people toot-otttoo— of getting more and more people back-office whilst- back into the office whilst ooooptttg— back into the office whilst accepting there are circumstances makes more circumstances when it makes more sotsolooooto— circumstances when it makes more sotsolooooto to— circumstances when it makes more sotsolooooto to to— circumstances when it makes more sense people to be able sense for people to be able to wort—tott- sense for people to be able to work—don't want. sense for people to be able to work don't want to sense for people to be able to. work—don't want to be work at home. i don't want to be ttotototot— work at home. i don't want to be dictatorial-this,— dictatorial about this, but i ttttt— dictatorial about this, but i ttttt tt-s— dictatorial about this, but i think it's in— dictatorial about this, but i think it's in everyone's tttotosts— think it's in everyone's interests that- think it's in everyone's interests that you're doing interests that if you're doing collaborative _ interests that if you're doing collaborative work, work togottot— collaborative work, work together well - collaborative work, work together well , you're the deputy together well, you're the deputy tttmo — together well, you're the deputy prime minister— together well, you're the deputy prime minister now, so why oot— prime minister now, so why oot you— prime minister now, so why aren't you fixing— prime minister now, so why aren't you fixing it? " prime minister now, so why aren't you fixing it? e aren't you fixing it? i mean, it ooo-t— aren't you fixing it? i mean, it out to— aren't you fixing it? i mean, it out to o— aren't you fixing it? i mean, it can't be a satisfied set of circumstances you've got. circumstances that you've got. for instance, only 39% of officials at defra actually albie at their desks. we've all had to go back to work. what's the civil service's excuse ? why the civil service's excuse? why well, we are expecting more and

poooto— well, we are expecting more and poopto to— well, we are expecting more and poopto to go— well, we are expecting more and more people to go back and more and more people to go back and more out oo— more people to go back and more oto poopto— more people to go back and more and more people are going back. too— and more people are going back. too-voy— and more people are going back. t-vo-voty otoot— and more people are going back. i've very clear about that. i've been very clear about that. att— i've been very clear about that. out uo— i've been very clear about that. out to oo— i've been very clear about that. out to tt— i've been very clear about that. and we are if you— i've been very clear about that. and we are if you look at the tuttotst— and we are if you look at the tutors ot— and we are if you look at the numbers of civil— and we are if you look at the numbers of civil servants who are numbers of civil servants who oto-ot— numbers of civil servants who oto-ot ttotr— numbers of civil servants who are at their desks, they are back at their desks, they rtsttg. — are back at their desks, they rtsttg. ts— are back at their desks, they are rising. as i— are back at their desks, they are rising. as i said, it's not going— are rising. as i said, it's not gottg to— are rising. as i said, it's not gottg to to— are rising. as i said, it's not gottg to to o— are rising. as i said, it's not going to be a total blanket oostttot— going to be a total blanket position where— going to be a total blanket position where you expect people to to— position where you expect people to to t— position where you expect people to to t tto— position where you expect people to be in the office— position where you expect people to be in the office the entire toto— to be in the office the entire gag, gust— to be in the office the entire time, just like— to be in the office the entire time, just like in— to be in the office the entire time, just like in the private sootor— time, just like in the private sootor-ony- time, just like in the private sector.-many of- time, just like in the private sector. many of your sector. many, many of your ott— sector. many, many of your viewers and other people otgogttg— viewers and other people engaging with this show will ttot— engaging with this show will know ttot— engaging with this show will know that in— engaging with this show will know that in the modern wortptooo— know that in the modern workplace, you do some of your stutt— workplace, you do some of your stutt tt— workplace, you do some of your stutt tt tto— workplace, you do some of your stuff in the office— workplace, you do some of your stuff in the office and you do ot— stuff in the office and you do ot tt— stuff in the office and you do some of it at— stuff in the office and you do some of it at at— stuff in the office and you do some of it at at home. and i ttttt— some of it at at home. and i tttttitoot— some of it at at home. and i think-needlhave- think we need to have a proportionate- think we need to have a proportionate balance. but i toot— proportionate balance. but i feel instinctively that there's a feel instinctively that there's o tot— feel instinctively that there's o tot to — feel instinctively that there's o tot to to — feel instinctively that there's a lot to be drawn from working in a lot to be drawn from working tt tto— a lot to be drawn from working tt tto otttoo— a lot to be drawn from working in the office . _ a lot to be drawn from working in the office . well,- a lot to be drawn from working in the office . titticc oi in the office. well, oliver dowden, thank you very much for not being at home and for being on the show this morning. lots more to come, including labour's jonathan ashworth . i'll also be jonathan ashworth. i'll also be speaking to dominic raab's, former and former boss david davis, and dave penman, general secretary of fda union, which of the fda union, which represents civil servants , will represents civil servants, will no doubt launch a robust defence. do not move a muscle

back.

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now, lots more to ttotutttg— tominey show. now, lots more to come, including labour's-

come, including labour's totottot— come, including labour's jonathan ashworth, who we hope is jonathan ashworth, who we hope ts tottg— jonathan ashworth, who we hope ts tottg otttoo— jonathan ashworth, who we hope is being miked up— jonathan ashworth, who we hope is being miked up as i speak. ttt— is being miked up as i speak. to otso— is being miked up as i speak. to otso gottg— is being miked up as i speak. i'm also going to— is being miked up as i speak. i'm also going to be speaking to tortttto— i'm also going to be speaking to dominic raabs,_ i'm also going to be speaking to dominic raabs, former boss, ootto— dominic raabs, former boss, oovtt toots— dominic raabs, former boss, david davis, and— dominic raabs, former boss, david davis, and dave penman, gotorot— david davis, and dave penman, general secretary— david davis, and dave penman, general secretary the fda general secretary of the fda uttot—otvtt union, which represents civil sorvotts— union, which represents civil sorvottslwttt— union, which represents civil servants will join me. all servants, will also join me. all ttot— servants, will also join me. all ttot ott— servants, will also join me. all that and much,— servants, will also join me. all that and much, more to that and much, much more to tut— that and much, much more to come. but first,— that and much, much more to come. but first, here's the news toottttos— come. but first, here's the news headlines-aaron- come. but first, here's the news headlines aaron armstrong . headlines with aaron armstrong. toot— headlines with aaron armstrong. ooot rtortttg— headlines with aaron armstrong. ooot rtortttg. — headlines with aaron armstrong. good morning. it's— headlines with aaron armstrong. good morning. c �*001’5 good morning. it's 1003. let's get good morning. it's1003. let's get you up to date from the gb news room. an alert will be heard on smartphones across the uk from 3:00 this afternoon. the government is . yeah, the government is. yeah, the government is. yeah, the government testing a new emergency siren intended to warn people about life threatening situations like fires, flooding or terror attacks. people will receive a message on their home screen , along with a sign that a screen, along with a sign that a vibration for up to ten seconds. now the public are being told they can simply swipe the message away. drivers, though , message away. drivers, though, are follow normal are being told to follow normal traffic laws, to touch their traffic laws, not to touch their phones until it's safe to do so.

the deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, says the sound could people's lives in could save people's lives in future the staff at the british future. the staff at the british embassy in sudan will be evacuated as soon as feasible amid fierce fighting in the country , both the united states country, both the united states and france have evacuated their diplomatic staff and have suspended operations at the embassies. it's two weeks since internal fighting began in and there have been an increasing number of attacks on diplomatic missions . however, any missions. however, any evacuation, to according a government source, will be limited and will focus on civil servants in the capital, khartoum . the world health khartoum. the world health organisation reported on friday at least 413 people have been killed and over 3500 injured. in sudan since the fighting broke out . the home secretary says out. the home secretary says it's crucial the government has the power to deport migrants without being blocked by the european court of human rights . european court of human rights. in the sunday telegraph, suella braverman said for britain to be truly sovereign needs be truly sovereign, it needs to be able decide who enters our able to decide who enters our territory. it comes after ten

small boats carrying more than 500 crossed the english 500 people crossed the english channel yesterday. liberal democrat leader sir ed davey says the government isn't doing enough tackle the issue . the enough to tackle the issue. the backlog siam enough to tackle the issue. the backlog .siam applications i backlog of siam applications ttot— backlog of siam applications ttot toto— backlog of siam applications that have not— backlog of siam applications that have not been processed is rooooo. — that have not been processed is 160,000. that's— that have not been processed is 160,000. that's the problem and ttts— 160,000. that's the problem and ttts toos— 160,000. that's the problem and this does nothing— 160,000. that's the problem and this does nothing to solve that. motor— this does nothing to solve that. liberal democrats— this does nothing to solve that. liberal democrats want this orottort — liberal democrats want this problem solved, but the government— problem solved, but the government is just being in otoos— government is just being in otoos ott— government is just being in chaos and can't— government is just being in chaos and can't even do the tostos— chaos and can't even do the tostos rtgtt— chaos and can't even do the basics right. _ chaos and can't even do the basics right . : basics right. tens of thousands of people will compete in the london marathon later today, but they could face some rainy conditions. that's to according the weather forecast . cemophora the weather forecast. cemophora will be competing in his final london marathon. he's admitted that there could be some tears after the race. it is set to be the largest marathon ever , with the largest marathon ever, with at least 45,000 people due to take part around £60 million are expected to be raised for charity . two new pictures of charity. two new pictures of prince louis have been published as he celebrates his fifth birthday today. he's been photographed smiling while being

pushed in a wheelbarrow by his mother. louis is expected to accompany his siblings in the procession from westminster abbey the king's abbey during the king's coronation next month . tv online coronation next month. tv online dab and tunein radio . this is gb dab and tunein radio. this is gb news. that's it for the moment. but now back to . but now back to. camilla welcome back to the camilla tominey show. thank you for young— tominey show. thank you for tottttg tto— tominey show. thank you for joining me this— “cg thank you for joining me this morning. happy sottt— joining me this morning. happy sottt ooorgo-s— joining me this morning. happy saint george's day to you. totottot— saint george's day to you. jonathan ashworth, the shadow soorotory— jonathan ashworth, the shadow soorotory ot— jonathan ashworth, the shadow secretary of state— jonathan ashworth, the shadow secretary of state for work and totstots — secretary of state for work and pensions,.going_ secretary of state for work and pensions, going to join me in pensions, is going to join me in gust— pensions, is going to join me in tustlrtortott.— pensions, is going to join me in just moment. david davis, just a moment. david davis, uortttto— just a moment. david davis, dominic-former- just a moment. david davis, dominic former boss and dominic raab's, former boss and torrtor— dominic raab's, former boss and former-secretary,- dominic raab's, former boss and former-secretary, is- dominic raab's, former boss and former secretary, is also former brexit secretary, is also going— former brexit secretary, is also gottg-tto— former brexit secretary, is also going-the studio,- former brexit secretary, is also going the studio, and going to be in the studio, and i'll going to be in the studio, and m to— going to be in the studio, and i'll be speaking— going to be in the studio, and i'll be speaking to cash, i'll be speaking to bill cash, tory— i'll be speaking to bill cash, toy-tor— i'll be speaking to bill cash, tory .for stone- i'll be speaking to bill cash, tory for stone and a tory mp for stone and a key otoyor— tory mp for stone and a key ptoyor tt— tory mp for stone and a key ptoyor tt ttts— tory mp for stone and a key player in this-in- tory mp for stone and a key player in this in the player in this row in the commons— player in this row in the commons .the- player in this row in the- commons-the government's commons over the government's tttogot— commons over the government's toga-tit.— commons over the government's illegal-bill. now- illegal migration bill. now totottot— illegal migration bill. now jonathan ashworth, good morning to—sortoi to you. i know you've done some wort— to you. i know you've done some wort ot— to you. i know you've done some work on inflation,— to you. i know you've done some work on inflation, particularly toot— work on inflation, particularly food inflation,— work on inflation, particularly food inflation, which now stands

at food inflation, which now stands ot rot-z.— food inflation, which now stands at 19.2. there's— food inflation, which now stands at 19.2. there's been a spread in at19.2. there's been a spread tt tto— at19.2. there's been a spread tt tto sut— at19.2. there's been a spread tt tto ot— at 19.2. there's been a spread in the sun on sunday. today a story— in the sun on sunday. today a story oottttg— in the sun on sunday. today a story oottttg tt— in the sun on sunday. today a story calling it greed inflation. _ story calling it greed inflation. is- story calling it greed inflation. is there a sense to wttot— inflation. is there a sense to wttot tto— inflation. is there a sense to which the supermarkets are ootuotty— which the supermarkets are actually exploiting this crisis to toto— actually exploiting this crisis to take shoppers for a ride? do you— to take shoppers for a ride? do you ttttt— to take shoppers for a ride? do you ttttt 7— to take shoppers for a ride? do you think ? well,— to take shoppers for a ride? do you think ? well, families are you think? well, families are rootty— you think? well, families are really struggling. cj�*" ti.ti:t. really struggling. of course, totttttos— really struggling. of course, families are already paying more in tax under the conservatives. they're paying more for their energy bills and they're now paying energy bills and they're now paying more for their weekly shop around £700 more a year , shop around £700 more a year, actually. and of course, the poorer families , people on poorer families, people on universal credit who are in work, who've already seen their universal credit cut by £20, and the failure to uprate it properly last year are really, really struggling . people are really struggling. people are really struggling. people are really hard up. look one of the things that we're suggesting is that the energy costs are one of the drivers of inflation and food inflation for food and manufacturing companies. let's expand and the windfall tax and use some of the proceeds of that windfall tax to support energy

companies , as i beg your pardon, companies, as i beg your pardon, to support energy intensive manufacturers, which is in the food sector, to bring bills down. you've also got to do things like deal with the labour supply problems as well, which is why i've put forward significant welfare reforms to is why i've put forward sigrpeople welfare reforms to is why i've put forward sigrpeople backre reforms to is why i've put forward sigrpeople back to reforms to is why i've put forward sigrpeople back to workis to is why i've put forward sigrpeople back to work ,; to is why i've put forward sigrpeople back to work , to» get people back to work, to offer an in—work offer people an in—work guarantee by dealing with the traps in the in the benefit system. so there are measures that government could be taking to bring down food prices. but i'm afraid more broadly, it's a symptom of 13 years of economic failure. and the rishi sunak is asking working families to pay the price for that . you've the price for that. you've talked about welfare. there , but talked about welfare. there, but at the talked about welfare. there, but ot tto sooto— talked about welfare. there, but at the same time,— talked about welfare. there, but at the same time, labour- : there, but at the same time, labour is ossoototot— at the same time, labour is associated with— at the same time, labour is associated with higher benefits. so associated with higher benefits. so too— associated with higher benefits. so tow — associated with higher benefits. so tow you— associated with higher benefits. so how are you going to encourage more people into work if encourage more people into work tt youo— encourage more people into work tt you gottg— encourage more people into work tt you gottg to— encourage more people into work if you're going to be paying ttot— if you're going to be paying ttot-totoy- if you're going to be paying. them _money,-work if you're going to be paying- them _money,-work . them more money, not to work. trott— them more money, not to work. you. first— them more money, not to work. you. ttrst ot— them more money, not to work. well, first of all,— them more money, not to work. well, first of all, people- well, first of all, people should be given fair settlements in terms of their social security payments. universal credit has been cut by £20. and then it was cut by again in real

terms because it was 7% less than inflation in last year. but the reforms that i've been putting forward are about deaung putting forward are about dealing with the traps in the system as it is. and i want to introduce, if you like, an in—work guarantee, whereas people who are out of work for reasons of sickness but who say they want to work , are given a they want to work, are given a bndge they want to work, are given a bridge into work, this is a significant reform which would actually help a lot of people, andifs actually help a lot of people, and it's been supported by experts . it's been supported by experts. it's been supported by think tanks like the centre for social justice . yes. and i'm social justice. yes. and i'm just really disappointed that government ministers are refusing to implement these types of welfare reforms when we know that many people want to work but are prevented from doing so. at the moment. let's talk about somebody who has just lost their job, dominic raab do lost theirjob, dominic raab do you think he was a bully ? well, you think he was a bully? well, look, you know , it's right- jzaccy7 well, look, you know , it's right that look, you know, it's right that rttttstors— look, you know, it's right that ministers are— look, you know, it's right that ministers are demanding and

pustttg— ministers are demanding and pustttg ottt— ministers are demanding and pushing civil servants hard. i wont— pushing civil servants hard. i wont to— pushing civil servants hard. i wont to to— pushing civil servants hard. i want to be the— pushing civil servants hard. i want to be the work- pushing civil servants hard. i want to be the work and pensions secretary. i will be demand ing and push hard to get more people into work to raise is children out of poverty to support families who are really struggling to offer security for disabled people. a million more disabled people. a million more disabled people. a million more disabled people in poverty to offer security for pensioners. it's right to be demanding when you're serving the british people . but the report said that people. but the report said that he was aggressive and intimidating, but he wasn't just a bullying minister. he was a failing minister. look at the backlog in the courts. look at the problems in the criminal justice system, indeed, failures in the criminal justice system are symptomatic failures are symptomatic of failures across all of our public services. now after 13 years of the conservative lives. and these failures really that anger my constituents . and i think it my constituents. and i think it proves that, you cannot trust the conservatives with the future of this country or the future of this country or the future of this country or the future of our public services, with the future. they cannot trust the conservatives with tax and living standards and i think that's big issue in politics

that's the big issue in politics today yeah, but i'm intrigued today. yeah, but i'm intrigued by your reaction to this low threshold that dominic raab says has been set on bullying . when has been set on bullying. when you to work very has been set on bullying. when you -to work very closely. you used to work very closely tutt— you used to work very closely wttt ootoot— you used to work very closely with gordon brown, now he was tosorttot— with gordon brown, now he was tosorttot ty— with gordon brown, now he was tosorttot ty o— with gordon brown, now he was described by a former labour ototoottor,— described by a former labour chancellor, alistair darling, as trutot— chancellor, alistair darling, as trutot ott— chancellor, alistair darling, as brutal and volcanic . chancellor, alistair darling, as brutal and volcanic. in andrew tootstoy-s— brutal and volcanic. in andrew rawnsley's book,— brutal and volcanic. in andrew rawnsley's book, the end of the party,— rawnsley's book, the end of the torty, to— rawnsley's book, the end of the torty, to totot— rawnsley's book, the end of the party, he noted that at one oortt— party, he noted that at one pottt tto— party, he noted that at one point the former cabinet soorotory— point the former cabinet secretary, sir— point the former cabinet secretary, sir gus o'donnell, tot— secretary, sir gus o'donnell, tot o— secretary, sir gus o'donnell, had a screaming— secretary, sir gus o'donnell, had a screaming match with ootoot— had a screaming match with gordon where— had a screaming match with gordon where gordon was, quote, soroortttg— gordon where gordon was, quote, soroortttg ott— gordon where gordon was, quote, screaming and swearing at him . screaming and swearing at him. att— screaming and swearing at him. att ootoot— screaming and swearing at him. and gordon brown— screaming and swearing at him. and gordon brown had a very bad rooutottot— and gordon brown had a very bad roputottot tor— and gordon brown had a very bad reputation for dealing with otttotots. — reputation for dealing with officials. why— reputation for dealing with officials. why wasn't he investigated,- officials. why wasn't he investigated, do you think, mr astwortt— investigated, do you think, mr astwortt o — investigated, do you think, mr ashworth ? well,— investigated, do you think, mr ashworth 7 well, i- investigated, do you think, mr ashworth ? tittiii : investigated, do you think, mr ashworth ? �*ftt�*ticc : tilt ashworth? well, i worked very closely with gordon brown and gordon is a robust personality , gordon is a robust personality, but he is not a bully. he did not intimidate officials batus and we all worked very well with gordon brown. and of course, he was demanding and robust. and because he was demanding and robust. gordon brown was able to lift million out of

lift a million children out of poverty and he was able to give the nhs the biggest investment in which led to the in its history, which led to the shortest waiting lines in history and the highest satisfaction ratings in history. and course , gordon brown's and of course, gordon brown's robust, robustness, robust, robust robustness, working on the international stage brought the g20 together to respond together to the global economic crash. so, yes, he was a robust personality. but doesn't this show a bully? doesn't doesn't this show, ttougt— doesn't doesn't this show, ttougt, tow— t c doesn't this show, though, how subjective this ssuo— though, how subjective this tso— though, how subjective this to t— though, how subjective this issue is? i mean , you describe issue is? i mean, you describe ootoot— issue is? i mean, you describe oortot oroot— issue is? i mean, you describe gordon brown as— issue is? i mean, you describe gordon brown as robust, other poooto— gordon brown as robust, other people describing as screaming and people describing as screaming ott soorttg— people describing as screaming and swearing, which isn't sortottttg— and swearing, which isn't something that dominic raab was ever accused of.— something that dominic raab was ever accused of. furthermore how you— ever accused of. furthermore how you support— ever accused of. furthermore how can you support this idea that the can you support this idea that tto ottt— can you support this idea that the civil service— can you support this idea that the civil service is impartial ttot— the civil service is impartial wtot suo— the civil service is impartial when sue gray— the civil service is impartial when sue gray has just been oppotttot— when sue gray has just been oppotttot os— when sue gray has just been appointed as sir— when sue gray has just been appointed as sir keir starmer as otrot— appointed as sir keir starmer as ottot ot— appointed as sir keir starmer as chief of staff— appointed as sir keir starmer as chief of staff of— appointed as sir keir starmer as chief of staff of .— appointed as sir keir starmer as chief of staff of . well my chief of staff of. well my ooortotoo— chief of staff of. well my experience of— chief of staff of. well my experience of working in gotortrtott— experience of working in goyortrtott .— experience of working in government , you know, some time government, you know, some time ago government, you know, sometime ogo to— government, you know, some time ogo .— government, you know, sometime ogo , tooouso— government, you know, some time ago now , because we've had a ago now, because we've had a ootsorvottvo— ago now, because we've had a conservative government for 13 yos— conservative government for 13 yoossttot— conservative government for 13 years, was that civil servants were impartial—

years, was that civil servants were impartial. _ years, was that civil servants were impartial . �*ftt�*ticc were impartial. well, independent and incredibly professional . all the ones professional. all the ones i worked with and indeed the proof of that is that many of the senior civil servants i worked with went on to work in very senior roles for the conservative government and indeed some of those civil servants ended up in political roles working as political, politically opposed roles for the conservative government . i the conservative government. i don't see that as a point of criticism. i say that as a tribute to those individuals, because when they worked with me , indicated or showed , they never indicated or showed any political bias , even if they any political bias, even if they were conservatives. so look , were conservatives. so look, it's right to look at it's always right to look at reforms by my instinct, i am a public sector reformer and it's always right that we look at how we improve institutions like the civil service . but this idea civil service. but this idea that there's some conspiracy kwasi and that dominic raab is the victim . and my gosh, i do the victim. and my gosh, i do think it is rather pathetic, whining and whinging erg from dominic raab, the person who was

responsible for dominic raab downfall is dominic raab, and he should show a bit of contrition . jonathan ashworth, thank you very much for joining . jonathan ashworth, thank you very much forjoining me . jonathan ashworth, thank you very much for joining me this morning. now i'm delighted to be tottot— morning. now i'm delighted to be tottot ty— morning. now i'm delighted to be joined by dominic— g now i'm delighted to be joined by dominic raab's, former toss— joined by dominic raab's, former toss ootto— joined by dominic raab's, former boss david davis— joined by dominic raab's, former boss david davis ,_ joined by dominic raab's, former boss david davis , also the mp boss david davis, also the mp for haltemprice_ boss david davis, also the mp for haltemprice and howden, torrtor— for haltemprice and howden, former brexit— for haltemprice and howden, former brexit secretary i remember, david, you once tosorttot— remember, david, you once described to— remember, david, you once described to me- remember, david, you once described to me dominic raab as your— described to me dominic raab as your orotogo— described to me dominic raab as your protogo. ros— described to me dominic raab as your protege. yes, that's right. now:— your protege. yes, that's right. now, os— your protege. yes, that's right. now, to— your protege. yes, that's right. now, to o— your protege. yes, that's right. now, was he a bully back then ott— now, was he a bully back then ott ts— now, was he a bully back then ott ts to— now, was he a bully back then ott ts to o— now, was he a bully back then and is he a bully— now, was he a bully back then and is he a bully now? no. i toot.— and is he a bully now? no. i mean, look, when— and is he a bully now? no. i mean, look, when he- and is he a bully now? no. i mean, look, when he worked for me, we were involved in incredibly fierce conflict with the then blair and brown governments . you know, we governments. you know, we removed a couple home removed a couple of home secretary ers and we had huge battles 90 and so on. battles over 90 days and so on. these were 18 hour days, often seven days a week in these battles . and so huge pressure on battles. and so huge pressure on him as my chief of staff and not once did i see him bully anybody . not once did i see him lose his temper. not once did i see him lose his cool or shout at anybody. so no, i don't believe he certainly wasn't a bully

then. and actually having read then. and actually having read the in some detail, i the report in some detail, i don't think he was a bully. now, i of the assertions i think some of the assertions in the report, by comparison, what were saying what you were saying about earlier gordon brown earlier about gordon brown throwing phones at people, smashing phones, allegedly . smashing phones, allegedly. allegedly, yes. all of that. but it's well written up in the papers. all of this is doesn't stand up against that. i mean , stand up against that. i mean, if you if you look at it, i mean, number one, he's accused of effectively putting pressure on somebody who a british diplomat who exceeded the mandate set by the cabinet in a very sensitive issue, that of gibraltar, incredibly sensitive . i was talking to some of my constituents about it over the weekend, and they said, well, we would have fired him. you know, the diplomats, officials have pushed back against that suggestion today's sunday suggestion in today's sunday telegraph. well, telegraph. it will be well, it will documented. saw the will be documented. i saw the comments from the head of gibraltar, he wouldn't gibraltar, but he wouldn't necessarily have known about it in so you know, he no in truth. so you know, he no doubt saying what he believes to

be but nevertheless, he be true, but nevertheless, he wouldn't it wouldn't have known about it necessarily. simple necessarily. but the simple truth that does not truth is that that does not stand up. some of the allegations that he challenged people over . look, we're allegations that he challenged people over. look, we're talking about hundreds of millions of pounds. we're talking about pubuc pounds. we're talking about public services that aren't always delivering. well, whether it's your passport or your driving licence or you're going to be talking later about immigration another of your immigration with another of your guests. i think bill cash is coming on about about about civil servants can get through one case a week. i mean, it's a civil service underperforming then david well, it's certainly underperforming. there's little doubtin underperforming. there's little doubt in my mind about that. the argument that's been put around and you're hearing, i think from from bias from others, whether it's bias we can talk about slightly differently. but certainly differently. but but certainly it's mean, it's underperforming. i mean, i had a conversation with an ex permanent secretary. i won't say who because i won't embarrass him, but an expert only a few weeks said in terms, you weeks ago who said in terms, you know, some of the things that have been happening in the home office the failure the office are the failure of the civil service the senior office are the failure of the civil servants the senior office are the failure of the civil servants in the senior office are the failure of the civil servants in allowing)r

civil servants in allowing it to happen, not the ministers, the senior civil servants, some people well, you're people will say, well, you're just deflect 13 years just trying to deflect 13 years of rule. you're trying to of tory rule. you're trying to ttorto— of tory rule. you're trying to ttorto tto— of tory rule. you're trying to blame the staff. _ of tory rule. you're trying to blame the staff. i- you're trying to blame the staff. i blame the staff. i mean, this is this is a this an ex senior this is a this is an ex senior civil servant speaking, not me . civil servant speaking, not me. and he said, you know ,1—1 civil servant speaking, not me. and he said, you know , 1—1 case, and he said, you know, 1—1 case, a week is ridiculous . and you a week is ridiculous. and you can't what do you put it down to? i mean, let's you mentioned ttos— to? i mean, let's you mentioned ttos. aro— to? i mean, let's you mentioned bias. are there— to? i mean, let's you mentioned bias. are there civil— tit7 i mean, let's you mentioned bias. are there civil servants ttot— bias. are there civil servants ttot oro— bias. are there civil servants that are biased?— bias. are there civil servants that are biased? how did you ttt— that are biased? how did you tttt tt— that are biased? how did you tttt tt oto— that are biased? how did you find it at? you— that are biased? how did you find it at? you know, we all ttot— find it at? you know, we all know ttot— find it at? you know, we all knew that there _ find it at? you know, we all knew that there were lots of remainers in— knew that there were lots of remainers in the— knew that there were lots of remainers in the civil service of course there— remainers in the civil service of course there were. cj�*" ti.ti:t. of course there were. of course ttoro— of course there were. of course there were. and there were occasions when particular occasions when one particular one comes to mind when one that comes to mind when i had a permanent had to call a permanent secretary with senior secretary and with a senior civil servant from another department he hadn't department and ask why he hadn't done towards fixing a done anything towards fixing a problem raised problem which we'd raised six months know, doing what months ago, you know, doing what he done. had that. he said he'd done. we had that. i this phrase i think there's this phrase passive i'm not passive aggression. i'm not quite that means, quite sure what that means, but there are certainly quite a lot of obstructionism, there's no doubt and doubt about that. and do you think they ideologically think they were ideologically motivated? well, there were poooto— motivated? well, there were poopto-tttt-t- motivated? well, there were. people - didn't believe :7 well, there were pe brexit. didn't believe :7 well, there were pebrexit. i �*i't believe :7 well, there were

pebrexit. iitittirclieve motivated? well, there were pebrexit. i mean,. most most of in brexit. i mean,. most most of the london civil service didn't, you know. but this is terrible. tt-s— you know. but this is terrible. to o— you know. but this is terrible. to o ttt— you know. but this is terrible. to o tttt ot— but this is terrible. it's a kind of travesty of it's a kind of a travesty of tortoorooy. — it's a kind of a travesty of democracy. if— it's a kind of a travesty of democracy. if you've got a rtotortty— democracy. if you've got a rtotortty ooto— democracy. if you've got a majority vote in- democracy. if you've got a majority vote in favour of trott— majority vote in favour of brexit, ministers are democratically elected to make trott— democratically elected to make troxtt-ott — democratically elected to make. brexit - and - unelected brexit happen and then unelected civil brexit happen and then unelected otvtt-ttootttg— brexit happen and then unelected civil-blocking it.- civil servants blocking it. root. — civil servants blocking it. root. tow— civil servants blocking it. yeah. now don't- civil servants blocking it. yeah. \ttif.t�*ttt" t:tit c t:tit c gtic civil servants blocking it.- yeah. now don't don't get me wrong, i mean the vast majority, certainly the ones who for certainly the ones who work for me, majority them me, the vast majority of them were first class servants were first class civil servants and public will. and they did. the public will. it's not it's not the conservative party's will. it's the will. you know, they the public will. you know, they elect government, they pass a elect a government, they pass a referendum . it's public's referendum. it's the public's will. that's all there to will. and that's all there to serve. and most of them, the vast majority of did that. vast majority of them, did that. but saw in but you certainly saw in whitehall a reticence to do it. and it was essentially because there was of a groupthink. there was sort of a groupthink. you know, people all thought this they this was wrong and so they weren't to weren't going this was wrong and so they we bei't to weren't going this was wrong and so they webe very to weren't going this was wrong and so they webe very helpful. what]oing this was wrong and so they we be very helpful. what about to be very helpful. what about the to be very helpful. what about tto tto— to be very helpful. what about the line between— to be very helpful. what about the line between group- ttig what about the line between group think and ttot—ooousttg- the line between group think and then—accusing the. then what raab is accusing the ottt— then what raab is accusing the otvtt-ot— then what raab is accusing the civil-of, which- then what raab is accusing the civil-of, which is- then what raab is accusing the civil of, which is kind civil service of, which is kind of civil service of, which is kind ot tto— civil service of, which is kind ot ttto ot— civil service of, which is kind of like an activist— civil service of, which is kind of like an activist conspiracy? trott— of like an activist conspiracy? trottlttoot— of like an activist conspiracy? well,lmean, obviously- of like an activist conspiracy? well,lmean, obviously i- of like an activist conspiracy? well, mean, obviously i wasn't well, i mean, obviously i wasn't in middle this, but in the middle of this, but i recommend your your viewers to go online, the report and go online, find the report and read paragraph which talks

read paragraph 161, which talks about the emoji emoji group complaint , the ministry of complaint, the ministry of justice group complaint obe it is. and what paragraph 161 says is. and what paragraph 161 says is some of the people in this complaint did not have any direct relationship with mr raab . some of them had never met him. yeah, i'm going to be puttttg— him. yeah, i'm going to be outtttg ttot— him. yeah, i'm going to be putting that to— i yeah, i'm going to be putting that to dave penman tooouso— putting that to dave penman tooouso to-s— putting that to dave penman because he's obviously in charge of because he's obviously in charge ot tto— because he's obviously in charge ot tto uttot— because he's obviously in charge of the union represents. of the union that represents. we of the union that represents. yuo-soo— of the union that represents. yuo-soo ttot— of the union that represents. we - see that these - we also see that these complaints all suddenly arrived on it all and a number of them all arrived on one day, the day that dominic was going to appear in front of the house of commons, standing in the commons, standing in for the prime up against angela prime minister up against angela raynen prime minister up against angela rayner. mean, that looks rayner. i mean, that looks i mean, the most incredible mean, that's the most incredible coincidence several years. coincidence over several years. that's all come that's the day they all come together. it just looks too political for words and talking about version or about the politicised version or not the civil service . is not of the civil service. is there any store in ti. . c ti.ti is there any store in france ? there any store in france? ttouto-s— there any store in france? maude's argument today in the oosorvor— maude's argument today in the oosorvor ttot— maude's argument today in the observer that he's— maude's argument today in the observer that he's out observer that he's carrying out ttts— observer that he's carrying out ttts-ott— observer that he's carrying out ttts-oto to-s— observer that he's carrying out this and he's talking this review and he's talking otout— this review and he's talking otout us— this review and he's talking about us moving towards a system like about us moving towards a system ttto austrotto— about us moving towards a system like australia or— about us moving towards a system like australia or america of tovttg— like australia or america of having politicised having more politicised appointments. we having more politicised appointments-we to appointments. well we have to ototo— appointments. well we have to makeldecision_ appointments. well we have to make decision basically as to

make a decision basically as to as make a decision basically as to oslwtottor— make a decision basically as to aslwhether and— make a decision basically as to as whether and bear in mind, as to whether and bear in mind, tot-t— as to whether and bear in mind, tot-t torgot— as to whether and bear in mind, don't forget what— as to whether and bear in mind, don't forget what i— as to whether and bear in mind, don't forget what i said, that tto— don't forget what i said, that tto oost— don't forget what i said, that the vast majority of civil sorvotts— the vast majority of civil sortotts .— the vast majority of civil servants , certainly working servants, certainly working ttrootty— servants, certainly working directly _were - servants, certainly working directly were very, very directly for me, were very, very good— directly for me, were very, very goot .ttoy— directly for me, were very, very gooo-ttoy rtoy— directly for me, were very, very good they may have good and they may not have tottovot— good and they may not have believed-but- good and they may not have believed but they believed in brexit, but they were committed delivering were committed to delivering rtgtt— were committed to delivering rtgtt . — were committed to delivering rtgtt . so.— were committed to delivering rtgtt . so. so— were committed to delivering right . so, so but- were committed to delivering right . were committed to delivering right. so, so but we've got to make a decision. we can either have the traditional british civil service or we can go. i mean , the easiest example is the mean, the easiest example is the french example where basically the top tier of the civil service comes in and out with with government and they're often what they call enarques . often what they call enarques. they've gone to the ecole nationale and they were all properly trained. and so on. but it lead to a completely it does lead to a completely different of government . i different sort of government. i mean, once i had to deal with mean, i once i had to deal with the french are an awful lot in various jobs and in in the french civil service basically the decisions all made in the top tier us and what goes on. so are you saying that perhaps ministers shouldn't be dealing with middle ranking civil servants? they should only be tootttg— servants? they should only be dealing-public— 7 they should only be dealing public permanent dealing with public permanent soorooutos— dealing with public permanent secretaries deputies, dealing with public permanent secinecessarily. deputies, dealing with public permanent secinecessarily. / deputies, dealing with public permanent secinecessarily. /tit. er?" cies, not necessarily. you can't always can't do always you can't always do things way. look, if you

things that way. look, if you want make something work, you want to make something work, you sometimes have to get the sometimes have to get into the detail. it . detail. but but you know, it. you know, if we make this decision, it will be a very stark decision. we have to stark decision. and we have to i have remember goes both have to remember it goes both ways. won't just to the ways. it won't just to be the governments putting in tory civil to labour civil servants us to labour governments putting labour or whatever mean i am, whatever it is. so i mean i am, i'm ambivalent about that. i just erg i mean, i tell just think erg i mean, i tell you what i do like about it, about frances moore's proposal and idea of auditing and that is the idea of auditing some decisions. yes, i some of the decisions. yes, i used to be public accounts used to be a public accounts committee chairman. know, committee chairman. you know, i did quite of did audit quite a lot of decisions as externally to government . and very often government. and very often i thought i saw some very poor decisions. i mean , you you decisions. i mean, you you actually quoted one of my jokes earlier, you know, is yes. minister of comedy. earlier, you know, is yes. minister of comedy . my original minister of comedy. my original one of your jokes. it was my original. we're on one of your jokes. it was my original . we're on the same get original. we're on the same get off original. we're on the same get ott my— original. we're on the same get off my wavelength— titg we're on the same get off my wavelength dodi davis. it off my wavelength dodi davis. rt tt— off my wavelength dodi davis. rt tt ts— off my wavelength dodi davis. rt tt ts tto— off my wavelength dodi davis. it it is the original— off my wavelength dodi davis. it it is the original line- off my wavelength dodi davis. it it is the original line was is it a comedy or is it a training film? well done. yeah. no, exactly. and i. i used to interrogate these people twice a week for five years of public

accounts. bucha. and frankly, is accounts. bucha. and frankly, is a bit of a training film. but let's also talk about- let's also talk about rishi sutot-s— let's also talk about rishi sunak's handling of this. i r— sunak's handling of this. i r-o— sunak's handling of this. i mean, i-a bit- sunak's handling of this. i mean, i a bit critical of mean, i was a bit critical of trrt— mean, i was a bit critical of ttrt tt— mean, i was a bit critical of ttrt tt tto— mean, i was a bit critical of him in the telegraph. i sort of soto— him in the telegraph. i sort of said-accused— him in the telegraph. i sort of said-accused keir- him in the telegraph. i sort of said accused keir starmer of said he accused keir starmer of tottg— said he accused keir starmer of tottg o— said he accused keir starmer of tottg o sottto— said he accused keir starmer of being a softie and— said he accused keir starmer of being a softie and actually he tootot— being a softie and actually he looked flakier_ being a softie and actually he looked flakier than whippy looked flakier than mr whippy tooouso—ot- looked flakier than mr whippy because—of the- looked flakier than mr whippy because of the day, because at the end of the day, ttts— because at the end of the day, ttts rooorts— because at the end of the day, this reports come— because at the end of the day, this reports come most this reports come out. most poooto— this reports come out. most poopto-ott- this reports come out. most poopto-ott go,- this reports come out. most people and go, if this people read it and go, if this is people read it and go, if this ts tuttyttg— people read it and go, if this is bullying, then— people read it and go, if this is bullying, then i'm a giraffe. att— is bullying, then i'm a giraffe. ant-ot— is bullying, then i'm a giraffe. att-ot tto— is bullying, then i'm a giraffe. and-at the same- is bullying, then i'm a giraffe. and at the same time, sunak and yet at the same time, sunak tost-t— and yet at the same time, sunak tost-t-tor— and yet at the same time, sunak hasn't-for dominic- and yet at the same time, sunak hasn't for dominic raab. hasn't fought for dominic raab. i hasn't fought for dominic raab. r-wtoto— hasn't fought for dominic raab. r-rrtoto wat,- i get the whole well, technically- i get the whole well,- technically- always i get the whole well,— technically-always going i get the whole well,— telresignly-always going i get the whole well,— telresign if-always going i get the whole well,— telresign if-wasvays going i get the whole well,— telresign if-was ays going i get the whole well,— telresign if-was a finding] to resign if there was a finding of to resign if there was a finding ot tuttyttg— to resign if there was a finding ot tuttyttg, wty— to resign if there was a finding of bullying, why isn't he tottttg— of bullying, why isn't he tottttglto— of bullying, why isn't he holding to this hard working holding on to this hard working rttttstor— holding on to this hard working minister—country. minister who ran the country ottto— minister who ran the country while-johnson- minister who ran the country while johnson nearly minister who ran the country while by johnson nearly minister who ran the country while by covid? �*i nearly minister who ran the country while by covid? / nearly minister who ran the country while by covid? / 1 killed by covid? yeah, well, without without being discourteous, thought the most discourteous, i thought the most persuasive actually persuasive piece was actually not in the telegraph for once. i mean, normally i'm a big follower yours, and was follower of yours, and it was actually matthew parris who actively like dominic actively doesn't like dominic raab and said so, but then went through said, you know, through and said, you know, there's case here to answer. there's no case here to answer. the problem is that dominic being dominic said , you know, being dominic said, you know, the the rules and the rules are the rules and said, i will resign if there's if there's any finding against me now, you know, but it's made

sunak week, it made sunak a week, hasn't it made sunak a week, hasn't it made sunak look as he's kind of sunak look as if he's kind of kowtowing to what some might regard snowflakes i don't regard as snowflakes in. i don't subscribe to that. i would have if you'd asked me if you were not going to do that. but if you called up said, do i, do called me up and said, do i, do i say i would say stick by him. but, but, but then do speak but, but, but then you do speak to rishi sunak a lot. so you didn't. i consulted- to rishi sunak a lot. so you didn't. i consulted on- ?tiri so you didn't. i consulted on this motor,— didn't. i consulted on this mgr... tot— didn't. i consulted on this matter, not on— didn't. i consulted on this matter, not on this issue. trott— matter, not on this issue. trott. ttt— matter, not on this issue. trott. r-tt ttt— matter, not on this issue. well, i'm i'm not- matter, not on this issue. well, i'm i'm not i'm- matter, not on this issue. well, i'm i'm not i'm not entirely impartial. i mean, i've known for long time, but the known for a long time, but the simple is, mean , prime simple truth is, i mean, prime ministers make rough and ready judgements all the time . all the judgements all the time. all the time. i mean, i've seen a number of ministers lose their jobs. who view shouldn't do but who in my view shouldn't do but pubuc who in my view shouldn't do but public opinion you would public opinion was you would have him. have advised you to keep him. so he's a bit of a mistake so he's made a bit of a mistake toro. — so he's made a bit of a mistake toro. trott— so he's made a bit of a mistake toro. trott. r— so he's made a bit of a mistake here. well, i think— so he's made a bit of a mistake here. well, i think i- so he's made a bit of a mistake here. well, i think i think i think it was a wrong decision. but the but the simple truth is that you've only got ration of that you've only got a ration of so controversy you can so much controversy you can manage. and he's got controversy over immigration. he's got controversy over economic policy. he's got some very, very big controversies have big controversies that have direct impact on people. so and

dominic doesn't blame my talk to dominic doesn't blame my talk to dominic and he dominic on the day and he doesn't he said, you know, he had to make a decision. are you happy with your— had to make a decision. are you happy with your support- titi are you happy with your support for rotstt— happy with your support for ttstt-ott— happy with your support for rishi-and your- rishi sunak and your contribution to boris johnson's oustttg— contribution to boris johnson's oustttg otot— contribution to boris johnson's ousting when you— contribution to boris johnson's ousting when you consider that your— ousting when you consider that your potty— ousting when you consider that your porty ts— ousting when you consider that your party is still— ousting when you consider that your party is still really lagging— your party is still really lagging heavily behind labour in the lagging heavily behind labour in tto polls?— lagging heavily behind labour in the polls? well,— lagging heavily behind labour in the polls? well, point number r— the polls? well, point number one, i mean, when i call for torts— one, i mean, when i call for torts to— one, i mean, when i call for torts to go— one, i mean, when i call for torts to go .— one, i mean, when i call for torts to go , you— one, i mean, when i call for boris to go , you look, i made boris to go, you look, i made i know— boris to go, you look, i made i know r— boris to go, you look, i made i know r os— boris to go, you look, i made i knew i was going— boris to go, you look, i made i knew i was going to make a lot of knew i was going to make a lot ot otorttos— knew i was going to make a lot of enemies that— knew i was going to make a lot of enemies that day. 't: t: t: of enemies that day. and i did. tut— of enemies that day. and i did. but nearly all of them, not all of them, but nearly all of them like 85. now, agree with me. but they might lose their- but they might lose their seats tooouso— but they might lose their seats tooouso ot— but they might lose their seats tooouso ot you— but they might lose their seats because of you and others. \ttit because of you and others. no, no, because. because- because of you and others. no, no, because. because we were on 110, because. because we were on an no, because. because we were on an almost vertical trajectory in the . were minus the polls. we were losing minus 20, i think we were at the time. and it got worse, a bit worse under truss. we've now coming back. why did i vote for. why did i vote for sunak? because i had i had about three dozen calls emails and texts calls and emails and texts saying you're a low tax tory vote for vote for truss. and i said, look, well you like penny mordaunt initially. to be fair,

i did, i did. but. but the second round i went straight for sunak. why because i thought after the, the, the controversies of the last few years on covid and so on, we needed some clear competence grip really . and that's what grip really. and that's what sunak has brought. i mean i don't i don't agree with every policy undertaken, but he's got a grip of it. he's, you know, people say people who didn't like him 2 or 3 months ago are now to me, actually, you now saying to me, actually, you know, have been right. know, you may have been right. and that's the first. it's only the not whole the first. it's not the whole qualification but qualification for winning, but it's first qualification it's the first qualification for winning can say winning because then we can say we can do a betterjob than laboun we can do a betterjob than labour. that's the first question. very briefly before we have because time this have to go, because time on this show past show seems to flashes past flashes it? on voter flashes by doesn't it? on voter id, why are flashes by doesn't it? on voter b, rrty you— flashes by doesn't it? on voter id, why are you against- : c c7’ on voter id, why are you against it? i suroty— id, why are you against it? i mean, surely it's— id, why are you against it? i mean, surely it's a tory concern ttot— mean, surely it's a tory concern ttot totour— mean, surely it's a tory concern that labour have— mean, surely it's a tory concern that labour have sometimes been tttttttg— fiddling the numbers when it comes-voting— fiddling the numbers when it comes voting two places at comes to voting in two places at tto.— comes to voting in two places at to rot— comes to voting in two places at once. it's,it'slsolution- comes to voting in two places at once. c c tit“ comes to voting in two places at once. c c i“ once. it's, it's a solution to a non—existent problem. we've had one non—existent problem. we've had oototottot— non—existent problem. we've had one conviction in— non—existent problem. we've had one conviction inldecade- non—existent problem. we've had one conviction inldecade ,- tix we've had one conviction in decade , one one conviction in a decade, one ottot— one conviction in a decade, one ottor oortttottt— one conviction in a decade, one other complaint. let's other complaint. so let's say two.— other complaint. so let's say two-tot— other complaint. so let's say two-tot o— other complaint. so let's say two.-not a major- other complaint. so let's say two. not a major issue. two. it's not a major issue. rtoro— two. it's not a major issue. rtoro oro—

two. it's not a major issue. there are issues- two. it's not a major issue. there are issues of voter tttttttg— there are issues of voter tttttttg tt— there are issues of voter fiddling, if you like , but it's fiddling, if you like, but it's rtostty— fiddling, if you like, but it's mostly around— fiddling, if you like, but it's mostly around .— fiddling, if you like, but it's mostly around . it's mostly mostly around. it's mostly oroutt— mostly around. it's mostly around postal— mostly around. it's mostly around postal votes . not not around postal votes. not not oroutt— around postal votes. not not ooutt tot— around postal votes. not not around, not around this. and ottot-s— around, not around this. and rrtot-s moro— around, not around this. and what's more, but— around, not around this. and what's more, but we have id for possports— what's more, but we have id for our passports and— what's more, but we have id for our passports and for our trtvttg— our passports and for our driving licences and sometimes at driving licences and sometimes ot wort.— driving licences and sometimes ot wort. — driving licences and sometimes ot wort. so— driving licences and sometimes at work. so what's— driving licences and sometimes at work. 7 at work. so what's the problem? not everybody has— at work. so what's the problem? not everybody has them- at work. 7 not everybody has them and the guttotoo— not everybody has them and the guidance always— not everybody has them and the guidance always used to be we'll trttg— guidance always used to be we'll trttg o— guidance always used to be we'll trttg o uttttty— guidance always used to be we'll bring a utility bill,— guidance always used to be we'll bring a utility bill, you know, ottot— bring a utility bill, you know, wttot ts— bring a utility bill, you know, which is frankly— bring a utility bill, you know, which is frankly quite enough. att— which is frankly quite enough. att tut— which is frankly quite enough. and but what's— which is frankly quite enough. and but what's going to happen? i and but what's going to happen? r oot— and but what's going to happen? r tto— and but what's going to happen? i mean, the estimates are totwoot— i mean, the estimates are tottroot .— i mean, the estimates are between . one— i mean, the estimates are between . one 950,003.5 million between. one 950,003.5 million people_ between. one 950,003.5 million poopto wto— between. one 950,003.5 million poopto rrto tot-t— between. one 950,003.5 million people who don't have either possports— people who don't have either possports or— people who don't have either passports or driving licences or any— passports or driving licences or oty ottot— passports or driving licences or oty ottor ototo— passports or driving licences or any other photo id under those. so any other photo id under those. so tt— any other photo id under those. so tt ttoso— any other photo id under those. so if those people— any other photo id under those. so if those people turn up, ttoy-ro— so if those people turn up, ttoy-ro gottg— so if those people turn up, they're going to- so if those people turn up, they're going to get turned away . att— they're going to get turned away . att ttot— they're going to get turned away . and that means— they're going to get turned away . and that means people are going— . and that means people are gottg to— . and that means people are gottg to toso— . and that means people are going to lose their vote and a lot going to lose their vote and a tot ot— going to lose their vote and a tot ot ttort— going to lose their vote and a lot of them are— going to lose their vote and a lot of them are going to be ottorty. — lot of them are going to be ottorty. r— lot of them are going to be elderly. i mean,— lot of them are going to be elderly. i mean, if somebody ttougtt— elderly. i mean, if somebody ttougtt ttts— elderly. i mean, if somebody thought this was— elderly. i mean, if somebody thought this was a calculation to toto— thought this was a calculation to tort tto— thought this was a calculation to tort tto tory— thought this was a calculation to help the tory party that rttgtt— to help the tory party that might backfire. rig tit“ might backfire. very briefly on that. local elections, bad or very bad? oh, look, we're not oooootttg— very bad? oh, look, we're not oopootttg to— very bad? oh, look, we're not expecting to do— very bad? oh, look, we're not expecting to do well. - rig :7 oh, look, we're not expecting to do well. i mean, you— expecting to do well. i mean, you know,— expecting to do well. i mean, you know, we're— expecting to do well. i mean, you know, we're behind the ports. — you know, we're behind the ports. -ttttt- you know, we're behind the polls-think but- you know, we're behind the polls. think but on the polls. but i think but on the ottot—

polls. but i think but on the ottor toto— polls. but i think but on the other hand,-out. polls. but i think but on the other hand, out in polls. but i think but on the- other hand,-out in the other hand, i've been out in the stroots— other hand, i've been out in the stroots tor— other hand, i've been out in the streets for the _ other hand, i've been out in the streets for the last— other hand, i've been out in the streets for the last 3 or 4 toots— streets for the last 3 or 4 weeks more,— streets for the last 3 or 4 weeks more, and i'm not getting i'm weeks more, and i'm not getting to tot— weeks more, and i'm not getting to tot gottttg— weeks more, and i'm not getting i'm not getting dramatically i'm not getting a dramatically tot— i'm not getting a dramatically tot rtosooso— i'm not getting a dramatically bad response-all.- i'm not getting a dramatically bad response all. and that's bad response at all. and that's ttot— bad response at all. and that's trtot oty— bad response at all. and that's what my colleagues say. but, you ttot,— what my colleagues say. but, you ttot-ttts— what my colleagues say. but, you know-ttts ts— what my colleagues say. but, you know,-this is not— what my colleagues say. but, you know,-this is not the- what my colleagues say. but, you know, this is not the test know, this this is not the test of know, this this is not the test ot rotstt. — know, this this is not the test ot rotstt. tto— know, this this is not the test of rishi. the test— know, this this is not the test of rishi. the test of rishi is tort— of rishi. the test of rishi is not yoor. — of rishi. the test of rishi is next year. yes.— of rishi. the test of rishi is next year. yes. and that's what rtottors— next year. yes. and that's what matters-david— next year. yes. and that's what matters-david davis,- next year. yes. and that's what matters jritt t: jritt next year. yes. and that's what matters jctr t: jctr matters. david davis, thank you so much forjoining me this so much for joining me this morning. pleasure. now let's morning. my pleasure. now let's go to cambridge, where go back to cambridge, where tom harwood is deputy harwood gb news is deputy political editor, has been speaking the people speaking to the good people there i'd know what there. i'd love to know what they've made of our interviews. tom yes. welcome back to stgtorottt-s— tom yes. welcome back to signorelli's deli— yes. welcome back to signorelli's deli here in the toort— signorelli's deli here in the toort ot— signorelli's deli here in the heart of cambridge . we've been heart of cambridge. we've been ttstotttg— heart of cambridge. we've been listening intently— heart of cambridge. we've been listening intently to those tttorrtorrs— listening intently to those interviews and— listening intently to those interviews and mike, you have sortottttg— interviews and mike, you have sortottttg to— interviews and mike, you have something to say— interviews and mike, you have something to say about what oortt— something to say about what oortt torts— something to say about what david davis said— something to say about what david davis said around auditing tootstots. — david davis said around auditing decisions. yeah,— david davis said around auditing decisions. yeah, i— david davis said around auditing decisions. /tirit“ : decisions. yeah, i was surprised to find myself agreeing with something that david said. so he talked about auditing— “g so he talked about auditing decisions and talked about auditing decisions ottloortos— talked about auditing decisions andlcomes back— talked about auditing decisions and comes back to this idea and it comes back to this idea of and it comes back to this idea ot strotogy— and it comes back to this idea or strotogy tor— and it comes back to this idea of strategy for the _ and it comes back to this idea of strategy for the country. so ot— of strategy for the country. so ot tto— of strategy for the country. so one of the things— of strategy for the country. so one of the things we- of strategy for the country. so one of the things we do- of strategy for the country. so one of the things we do in our software business is we make assumptions. we know we're not going to get it right. you say, how to measure how am i going to measure performance? you gather and

how am i going to measure peit's'mance? you gather and how am i going to measure peit's notice? you gather and how am i going to measure peit's not working gather and how am i going to measure peit's not working out, er and how am i going to measure peit's not working out, you and if it's not working out, you adjust. so david famously said that there'd be no downsides to brexit. for example, this week the david davis downside dossier hit a thousand downsides and tugendhat's calling for a review of the brexit decision. so it's the implement version of it. so why don't you learn ? i'd like to why don't you learn? i'd like to see governments saying how will be measured learn from what hasn't worked and be honest with people say we thought this would happen. people say we thought this would happen . it hasn't. we're going happen. it hasn't. we're going to course correct and people are too scared admit they got too scared to admit they got things wrong. hillary, do you agree that ? yeah, i think , agree with that? yeah, i think, rut..— agree with that? yeah, i think, we, ttoro-s— agree with that? yeah, i think, mike, there's a— agree with that? yeah, i think, mike, there's a lot— agree with that? yeah, i think, mike, there's a lot of- titg”tiri sctc7 yeah, i think, mike, there's a lot of wisdom in ttot— mike, there's a lot of wisdom in trtot trrto— mike, there's a lot of wisdom in what mike says. _ mike, there's a lot of wisdom in what mike says. and i don't ttttt— what mike says. and i don't ttttt r— what mike says. and i don't ttttt r tot— what mike says. and i don't think i had anything better to it. think i had anything better to t. trott— think i had anything better to it. well thank— think i had anything better to it. well thank you for that. att— it. well thank you for that. art r— it. well thank you for that. out r suppose— it. well thank you for that. and i suppose andrew,- it. well thank you for that. and i suppose andrew, when it comes to reviewing decisions, when it comes to sort of measuring decisions, is that possible ? well, of course it is. possible? well, of course it is. you— possible? well, of course it is. you toro— possible? well, of course it is. you too to— possible? well, of course it is. you have to you— possible? well, of course it is. you have to you have- 7 well, of course it is. you have to you have to make tt— you have to you have to make sure it actually— you have to you have to make sure it actually works. you look for sure it actually works. you look tor tto— sure it actually works. you look for the solutions.— sure it actually works. you look for the solutions. you don't toot— for the solutions. you don't toot tor— for the solutions. you don't look for the— for the solutions. you don't look for the problems. you can oorry— look for the problems. you can oorry ot— look for the problems. you can carry on looking— look for the problems. you can carry on looking for the protons— carry on looking for the problems all- carry on looking for the problems all your life. it's

orootty— problems all your life. it's exactly what— problems all your life. it's exactly what mike said. the exactly what mike said. at the ott— exactly what mike said. at the ottltto— exactly what mike said. at the end .the .there's- exactly what mike said. at the end .the .there's a - exactly what mike said. at the end the there's a whole end of the day, there's a whole ttoro-s— end of the day, there's a whole there'slwhole_ end of the day, there's a whole there's whole massive there's a whole massive sttuottots— there's a whole massive- situations _through there's a whole massive- situatiowith _through there's a whole massive situatiowith the through there's a whole massive situatiowith the problemsrugh there's a whole massive situatiowith the problems with europe with the problems with the europe with the problems with tto—toot - europe with the problems with tto—toot ttol europe with the problems with. the _ down the rhine the wealth going down the rhine trott— the wealth going down the rhine tort-ttoso— the wealth going down the rhine from-these things,- from europe. these things, ttoro-s— from europe. these things, there's-well- from europe. these things, there's well spread . the there's not well spread. the ototo— there's not well spread. the wtoto ttttg— there's not well spread. the whole thing about the brexit scenario was— whole thing about the brexit scenario was a— whole thing about the brexit scenario was a bit of a really troottut— scenario was a bit of a really dreadful mess.— scenario was a bit of a really dreadful mess. and at the end of the dreadful mess. and at the end of tto toy— dreadful mess. and at the end of tto toy wo— dreadful mess. and at the end of the day we haven't— dreadful mess. and at the end of the day we haven't seen to have any— the day we haven't seen to have oty ttoo— the day we haven't seen to have oty ttoo troy— the day we haven't seen to have any idea way forward. and that's otot— any idea way forward. and that's trtot r— any idea way forward. and that's trtot r oroutt— any idea way forward. and that's what i would like— any idea way forward. and that's what i would like to see more torotoortott— what i would like to see more development going forward, more toto— development going forward, more tort to— development going forward, more tort to tto— development going forward, more help to the small— development going forward, more help to the small businessmen oto— help to the small businessmen rrto ts— help to the small businessmen rrto ts tto— help to the small businessmen who is the backbone of this oouttry— who is the backbone of this oouttry os— who is the backbone of this oouttry os r— who is the backbone of this country as i said. jittticc country as i said. well, let's turt— country as i said. well, let's turn to now what the new deputy prime minister, oliver dowden, had to say. he was asked directly by camilla dominic directly by camilla is dominic raab, a bully hillary, do you think he answered that question in? he say? what can in? what can he say? what can the in? what can he say? what can tto ot— in? what can he say? what can tto soyo— in? what can he say? what can the man say? right— “7 what can he say? what can the man say? right now? we don't ttot— the man say? right now? we don't know .— the man say? right now? we don't know . tut— the man say? right now? we don't know . tut tt— the man say? right now? we don't know . but it seems— the man say? right now? we don't know . but it seems to me if you know. but it seems to me if you toro— know. but it seems to me if you too o— know. but it seems to me if you too o tougt— know. but it seems to me if you have a tough boss— know. but it seems to me if you have a tough boss who is conscientious,— have a tough boss who is conscientious, you should be grototut— conscientious, you should be grototut tor— conscientious, you should be grateful for that— conscientious, you should be grateful for that . ' “ti conscientious, you should be grateful for that . ' “i it. grateful for that. and mike, otot— grateful for that. and mike, when it came to what oliver dowden had to say , did how did dowden had to say, did how did you feel he was acting ? was he you feel he was acting? was he was he appearing to be deputy prime ministerial? he didn't

show authoritative- " it7 he didn't show authoritative leadership to me show authoritative leadership to to . tut,— show authoritative leadership to to . out, you— show authoritative leadership to me . but, you know, i guess he's me. but, you know, i guess he's wortttg— me. but, you know, i guess he's wortttg ttto— me. but, you know, i guess he's working into the— me. but, you know, i guess he's working into the role, but i'm tot— working into the role, but i'm not confident— working into the role, but i'm not confident he'll ever achieve it. not confident he'll ever achieve tt. tort — not confident he'll ever achieve tt. tort ttts— not confident he'll ever achieve it. tom it's interesting that i supposo— it. tom it's interesting that i suppose, andrew, in terms of tootttg— suppose, andrew, in terms of tootttg ot— suppose, andrew, in terms of looking at what— suppose, andrew, in terms of looking at what you look for in a looking at what you look for in o ooputy— looking at what you look for in o ooputy ttsto— looking at what you look for in a deputy prime minister, we tot-t— a deputy prime minister, we tot-t otrroys— a deputy prime minister, we don't always have a deputy prime rrtttstor— don't always have a deputy prime minister—should. don't always have a deputy primei minister—should we minister in a country. should we toro— minister in a country. should we have appointed one? i really have appointed one? i really have got no opinion.- “iti 7 i really have got no opinion. i'm really gutto— have got no opinion. i'm really gutto totostty— have got no opinion. i'm really quite honestly, hoping quite honestly, i'm hoping for sotuttots— quite honestly, i'm hoping for solutions—to. solutions. i'm really want to see-more idea- solutions. i'm really want to see more idea for bringing see more, more idea for bringing our-tottor— see more, more idea for bringing our-tottor .— see more, more idea for bringing our-tottor. rt— see more, more idea for bringing our better . it doesn't our country better. it doesn't rootty— our country better. it doesn't really matter— our country better. it doesn't really matter who it is. it ooost-t— really matter who it is. it doesn't matter- really matter who it is. it doesn't matter which label they too. — doesn't matter which label they have. _interested. - doesn't matter which label they have.-interested. i- have. i'm not interested. i rootty— have. i'm not interested. i oorry-to— have. i'm not interested. i really-to see- have. i'm not interested. i really-to see a- have. i'm not interested. i really to see a better really want to see a better sotuttot— really want to see a better solution for— really want to see a better solution for the - really want to see a better solution for the general person in solution for the general person tt tto— solution for the general person tt tto stroot— solution for the general person in the street and— solution for the general person in the street and give them more woottt— in the street and give them more woottt tt— in the street and give them more wealth in their— in the street and give them more wealth in their pockets so they —soott- wealth in their pockets so they can _ spend money,| can go out and spend money, ottot— can go out and spend money, ottot-moro— can go out and spend money, which more wealth to more which gives more wealth to more ooopto. — which gives more wealth to more people- so.— which gives more wealth to more people. so, jonathan- which gives more wealth to more people. so, jonathan ashworth of the party was talking the labour party was talking about wants deal with about how he wants to deal with inflation, about a new inflation, talking about a new tax , a further on energy tax, a further tax on energy companies , as hilary. what did companies, as hilary. what did you make of that? well, i think stroo— you make of that? well, i think since we need— you make of that? well, i think since we need energy- sctc7 well, i think since we need energy companies so mug..— since we need energy companies so much, you— since we need energy companies so much, you shouldn't penalise ttot.— so much, you shouldn't penalise ttort. tow—

so much, you shouldn't penalise ttort. tow oot— so much, you shouldn't penalise them. how can they invest if you toto— them. how can they invest if you toto totoy— them. how can they invest if you toto rtotoy ott— them. how can they invest if you take money off them all the ttoo— take money off them all the trrtoo r— take money off them all the time? i suppose— take money off them all the time? i suppose it is interesting,- time? i suppose it is interesting, mike, because we otrooty— interesting, mike, because we otrooty to— interesting, mike, because we already do have— interesting, mike, because we already do have quite a hefty wttttott— already do have quite a hefty windfall tax— already do have quite a hefty windfall tax on— already do have quite a hefty windfall tax on energy companies . as— windfall tax on energy companies . as someone who— windfall tax on energy companies . as someone who works- windfall tax on energy companies . as someone who works in in business, in software here in cambridge, what do you make of the labour party talking about more taxes? as my instinct is you could probably carry a heavy attacks on the energy companies as i don't know the full economics of it, and i trust that jonathan has researched it. yeah. and andrew, what do you ototo— yeah. and andrew, what do you rtoto ot— yeah. and andrew, what do you rtoto ot ttot— yeah. and andrew, what do you make of that ? _ yeah. and andrew, what do you make of that ? i— yeah. and andrew, what do you make of that ? tirits make of that? i think basically we should stop paying for the crimea war, which is income tax. that should be obliterated. furthermore we should not be paying furthermore we should not be paying vat at all because we're no part no longer part of europe. that's how i think . europe. that's how i think. well, it's interesting. we've got— well, it's interesting. we've got o— well, it's interesting. we've got o rotgo— well, it's interesting. we've got o rotgo ot— well, it's interesting. we've got a range of views here in oorttrttgo— got a range of views here in cambridge and— got a range of views here in cambridge and some pretty stark ototysts— cambridge and some pretty stark ototysts ot— cambridge and some pretty stark analysis of what— cambridge and some pretty stark analysis of what those interviews— analysis of what those interviews brought back to you, oortttto— interviews brought back to you, camilla, thanks— interviews brought back to you, camilla, thanks very much for ttot,— camilla, thanks very much for ttot, tort. — camilla, thanks very much for ttot, tort. r— camilla, thanks very much for that, tom. i quite- camilla, thanks very much for that, tom. ti. i i that, tom. i quite like the idea of scrapping both income tax and vat . don't hold your breath,

vat. don't hold your breath, though, with the tax burden at the highest since the second world war. don't forget, you can aititly world war. don't forget, you can apply for the people's panel next we're going be in next week. we're going to be in cardiff. you're in wales cardiff. so if you're in wales and want voice an opinion and you want to voice an opinion gb news .uk slash panel. gb news .uk forward slash panel. now, anywhere, because now, don't go anywhere, because in moment i'm to be in just a moment i'm going to be speaking to dave penman, the boss the fda union, which boss of the fda union, which represents those civil represents all of those civil servants dominic raab servants that dominic raab has been about. be back been complaining about. be back in minute .

news radio. well come back to the camilla tominey show now. we've had a robust defence _ tominey show now. we've had a robust defence of— “car we've had a robust defence of dominic raab trott— robust defence of dominic raab trort tts— robust defence of dominic raab from his former— robust defence of dominic raab from his former boss, david torts. — from his former boss, david torts. tot-s— from his former boss, david davis. let's bring in dave torrtor— davis. let's bring in dave penman now.— davis. let's bring in dave penman now. he's general soorotory— penman now. he's general soorotory ot— penman now. he's general secretary of the - penman now. he's general secretary of the fda union, ottot— secretary of the fda union, which represents civil servants. ooto,— which represents civil servants. uoto, ttotts— which represents civil servants. dave, thanks joining me this dave, thanks for joining me this rtortttg. — dave, thanks for joining me this rtortttg. tow,— dave, thanks for joining me this morning. now, what do you make of morning. now, what do you make ot-rtoot-s— morning. now, what do you make of-raab's claims- morning. now, what do you make of raab's claims about of dominic raab's claims about oottustoto— of dominic raab's claims about collusion? he's— of dominic raab's claims about collusion? he's said that he ttttts— collusion? he's said that he ttttts ttot— collusion? he's said that he thinks that there was certainly some coordination. one of the

oortrtottts— some coordination. one of the complaints was— some coordination. one of the complaints was struck out tooouso— complaints was struck out because they'd _ complaints was struck out because they'd written it togottor. — because they'd written it together. . does - because they'd written it together. does say in adam together. it does say in adam rottoy-s— together. it does say in adam tottoy-s roport— together. it does say in adam tolley's report that some of ttoso— tolley's report that some of ttoso tto— tolley's report that some of those who complained about oortttto— those who complained about. dominic—hadn't dominic raabs behaviour hadn't orot-ttrootty— dominic raabs behaviour hadn't even-directly with- dominic raabs behaviour hadn't even directly with him . even worked directly with him. yes r— even worked directly with him. tos . ttts— even worked directly with him. yes , it's interesting.— even worked directly with him. “tilt? c “ti”titirc “ti jtiti“ “ ti. yes, it's interesting. dominic raab didn't make any of those assertions when he met with adam thawley. indeed and adam thawley says that the prime minister accepted that there was no collusion, that complaints had been made in good faith and indeed there was no snowflake culture. so all of this is just sour grapes from dominic raab. after the event, he's been found to have bullied civil servants who are familiar with them to be aggressive. he doesn't like that. he seems to want to pick and choose which bits of the tory report he likes. he likes the bit with the complaints were dismissed he doesn't dismissed and then he doesn't like where the like the bit where the complaints he bullied complaints found that he bullied civil . so just all civil servants. so it's just all sour grapes and post the report from raab . but having said that, from raab. but having said that, dave, compared to some of the reports in the newspapers and we can speak about whether there

should be a leak inquiry, there were calls about him shouting and swearing that apparently at one point he had thrown tomatoes at staff aslef the at staff aslef pardon the expression, of that expression, but none of that actually stuck. and what he's toot— actually stuck. and what he's toot routt— actually stuck. and what he's been found guilty— actually stuck. and what he's been found guilty of- i i and what he's been found guilty of is a pretty low been found guilty of is a pretty tow tor— been found guilty of is a pretty toy to ot— been found guilty of is a pretty low bar on bullying year degree. suroty— low bar on bullying year degree. suroty — low bar on bullying year degree. suroty to.— low bar on bullying year degree. suroty to. r— low bar on bullying year degree. surely no, i wouldn't- low bar on bullying year degree. surely \tt§t “ c titg ”titi surely no, i wouldn't agree because adam tolley's a kc and he's had to look at what bullying is. he's you know, if you look at some of the words that tolley's used in his report about humiliating people, about aggression, about deliberately targeting, targeting an individual, about being aggressive , and how he conducted aggressive, and how he conducted themselves and being deliberate about it . i themselves and being deliberate about it. i don't think that that that's a low bar. i mean, ultimately, the prime minister is actually the arbiter of this. adam tolley was only asked to establish the facts. the prime minister's independent adviser was involved in this, as far was not involved in this, as far as we know, and therefore, it was the prime minister who had to look at this and decide whether in light of the evidence, it satisfied any definition of bullying. so again, i do not believe there is

again, i do not believe there is a low bar i think what a low bar here. i think what you've got is dominic who you've got is dominic raab, who was convinced of his was absolutely convinced of his own report makes own position. the report makes clear time again he had an clear time and again he had an opportunity motty to amend his behaviour and actually says in the report the only time he changed his conduct was after complaints went in and that he should have amended his conduct before. at the time . tony, when before. at the time. tony, when you go but at the time , but at you go but at the time, but at the time, dave penman, the report does make it clear that he wasn't alerted to some people finding his behaviour uncomfortable. but just on that oortt— uncomfortable. but just on that pottt otout— uncomfortable. but just on that pottt otout o— uncomfortable. but just on that point about a robust— i. i but just on that point about a robust process as a union man, philip barton and attotto— a union man, philip barton and antonio romeo— a union man, philip barton and antonio romeo raised with him his antonio romeo raised with him tts oottuot— antonio romeo raised with him his conduct and— antonio romeo raised with him his conduct and tony romeo rotsot— his conduct and tony romeo raised issues— his conduct and tony romeo raised issues about his conduct on raised issues about his conduct or ttroo— raised issues about his conduct on three separate— raised issues about his conduct on three separate occasions and ootuotty— on three separate occasions and ootuotty tt— on three separate occasions and ootuotty tt you— on three separate occasions and actually if you look at what it soys— actually if you look at what it soys otout— actually if you look at what it says about his— actually if you look at what it says about his interaction with tttttr— says about his interaction with tttttp ootot— says about his interaction with philip barton, it— says about his interaction with philip barton, it says that oortttto— philip barton, it says that dominic raab— philip barton, it says that dominic raab denied that this toot— dominic raab denied that this toot-att— dominic raab denied that this took-and adam - dominic raab denied that thisi took-and adam tolley took place. and adam tolley believes barton and not . believes philip barton and not. dominic raab. but doesn't that come to the nub of this issue in

that this is a he said she said process , you're a union man. process, you're a union man. you wouldn't want one of your rtortorts— you wouldn't want one of your rtortorts to— you wouldn't want one of your members to be— you wouldn't want one of your members to be accused of sortottttg— members to be accused of something without the witnesses. ootuotty— something without the witnesses. ootuotty tottg— something without the witnesses. actually being cross—examined. but actually being cross—examined. tut-ttts— actually being cross—examined. but this investigation, they but in this investigation, they oott— but in this investigation, they weren't . well,— but in this investigation, they weren't . well, the- but in this investigation, they weren't . jtittriii weren't. well, the witnesses weren't. well, the witnesses were interviewed. they're not cross—exam . and this is not cross—exam. and this is not a criminal case. there's no cross—examine. graham examination of witnesses in a bullying investigation in any other employer. that's not that's not how it works. what happens is an investigator has to look at evidence . quite often to look at evidence. quite often this is evidence when you look at harassment and bullying that is about individuals and you look at that and in balance of probabilities, you say, do i believe that or that believe that person or that person? if there's no independent evidence, that's entirely also entirely reasonable, that's also the the land just now. so the law of the land just now. so if look at what happened in if you look at what happened in relation the interaction with relation to the interaction with sir barton and what relation to the interaction with sir lookedrn and what relation to the interaction with sir looked at,nd what relation to the interaction with sir looked at, adamtt relation to the interaction with sir looked at, adam tully's they've looked at, adam tully's looked at, what did the prime minister say? what did philip barton which one stands up barton say? which one stands up to greater scrutiny found to greater scrutiny and found that was sir philip that actually it was sir philip barton's and evidence that stood

up to greater scrutiny. he denied that antonio romeo had raised any issues with him yet she had contemporaneous notes describing the interactions and the evidence she'd given so you have to find a way of establishing, believing one witness versus another . okay, witness versus another. okay, let's just address— witness versus another. okay, let's just address this- okay, let's just address this specific oortt— let's just address this specific pottt otout— let's just address this specific point about the _ let's just address this specific point about the fda. let me just guoto— point about the fda. let me just guoto otot— point about the fda. let me just quote what raab— point about the fda. let me just quote what raab has said yostortoy— quote what raab has said yostortoy .— quote what raab has said yesterday . also, i know that yesterday. also, i know that i was warned by— yesterday. also, i know that i was warned by a— yesterday. also, i know that i was warned by a very senior rtortort— was warned by a very senior rtortort ot— was warned by a very senior member of the— was warned by a very senior member of the government, a orott— member of the government, a senior civil servant, member of the government, a senior civil servant , that there senior civil servant, that there are increasingly— senior civil servant, that there are increasingly activist civil sorrotts— are increasingly activist civil servants mobilised by the fda uttot— servants mobilised by the fda tto— servants mobilised by the fda union who are— servants mobilised by the fda union who are looking to target rttttstors. — union who are looking to target rttttstors. rs— union who are looking to target ministers. is that— union who are looking to target ministers. is that true? mr torrtor— ministers. is that true? mr totrtot rt-s— ministers. is that true? mr penman it's laughable, to be totost— penman it's laughable, to be totost. — penman it's laughable, to be totost. tto— penman it's laughable, to be honest . the fact- penman it's laughable, to be honest . itti. honest. the fact that he's making that accusation, if only we had such power as a trade union, to be honest. but thanks very much for the namecheck dominic. we weren't involved in the majority of these complaints. had no complaints. we had no involvement significant involvement in a significant number of them. we do not target ministers . we represent our ministers. we represent our members and if you look at it,

if that's the case, what have we actually seen in the last five years? there's only been two formal complaints against ministers. have actually ministers. both have actually been favour of the been found in favour of the complainants. that's against priti patel and now against dominic raab. so if there's somehow this activist culture, how is it actually manifesting itself? there is no evidence for this . once itself? there is no evidence for this. once again, simply sour grapes. it this. once again, simply sour grapes . it might be manifesting grapes. it might be manifesting ttsott— grapes. it might be manifesting ttsott r...— grapes. it might be manifesting ttsott r... tor— g it might be manifesting itself in, for instance, sue troy— itself in, for instance, sue gray deciding— itself in, for instance, sue gray deciding to go and be chief of gray deciding to go and be chief ot stott— gray deciding to go and be chief ot stott tor— gray deciding to go and be chief of staff for sir— gray deciding to go and be chief of staff for sir keir— gray deciding to go and be chief of staff for sir keir starmer. tot-t— of staff for sir keir starmer. tot-t you— of staff for sir keir starmer. don't you think— of staff for sir keir starmer. don't you think that's undermined- don't you think that's undermined people's opinions of rrtottor— undermined people's opinions of rrtottor tto— undermined people's opinions of whether the civil— undermined people's opinions of whether the civil service is in toot— whether the civil service is in fact impartial— whether the civil service is in fact impartial ? _ whether the civil service is in fact impartial ? jitttiii fact impartial? well, i think as jonathan ashworth said earlier on, the civil service has people who work for it impartially and can then go on and do jobs working for different political parties, including the conservative party. it's about what you do when you're a civil servant. you're free to choose another employer at different point in time. and some people that will be a company, a big business, private sector and some people because of the

nature of what they do, they're interested in politics. they will for will go on to work for a political party. there are plenty of civil servants who are currently working for the former civil the civil servants for the conservative party. so we we conservative party. so we are we to civil servants from to ban all civil servants from ever getting a job with a political party. that's the political party. if that's the case, that's but it case, that's fine, but it appues case, that's fine, but it applies to everyone and applies equally to everyone and i don't really see how it's relevant anything to do with relevant to anything to do with dominic raab final question, is it right that there are some government departments considering that's considering everything that's going on with the country the going on with the country at the moment sense, perhaps moment in this sense, perhaps that isn't working that britain isn't working and that britain isn't working and that are some departments that there are some departments where there's only a 39% turnout in the office , that two thirds in the office, that two thirds of those departments are still working at these years working at home all these years on from the pandemic. so the civil service before the pandemic and decided that it was more efficient to have less desks than they have people. so they reduced the civil service estate. so before anything happened on covid, civil servants were routinely working from home. nobody raised a question about whether that was

effective or not. and since the pandemic, the government have insisted that civil servants come for in at least two days a week. what you're looking at is occupancy for a occupancy figures for a particular every particular day. if every civil service up to whitehall, service turned up to whitehall, i mean, we consider this at one point. actually, given the criticism, we'll say, well, i'll tell you what, we'll ask all civil turn at civil servants to turn up at their and see if they've their work and see if they've got a desk. they wouldn't have one. so the government's decided to save taxpayers money and say that there's flexible working, and that's good for civil servants and good the servants and it's good for the economy good the economy and good for the taxpayer. penman, you taxpayer. dave penman, thank you very joining this very much for joining me this morning. let's bring in morning. now let's bring in rrtotoot— morning. now let's bring in michael portillo_ “g now let's bring in michael portillo into the conversation _ michael portillo into the conversation ,- michael portillo into the conversation , not least because conversation, not least because tots— conversation, not least because tots-totoy— conversation, not least because he's-fellow gb _ conversation, not least because he's fellow gb news presenter he's my fellow gb news presenter and he's my fellow gb news presenter ott tots— he's my fellow gb news presenter ott to-s ot— he's my fellow gb news presenter ott to-s ot-rr,— he's my fellow gb news presenter and he's on-11, but- he's my fellow gb news presenter and he's on 11, but also as and he's on from 11, but also as and he's on from 11, but also as otorrtor— and he's on from 11, but also as a former defence— and he's on from 11, but also as a former defence and a former defence secretary and oottttotot— a former defence secretary and politician extraordinaire, i'm tttorostot— politician extraordinaire, i'm interested i know- politician extraordinaire, i'm interested know from you, interested to know from you, rrtotoot,— interested to know from you, rrtotootr-you- interested to know from you, michael,-you-ofl interested to know from you,- michael,-you-of civil michael, what you make of civil sorrtoo— michael, what you make of civil sootoo—or- michael, what you make of civil service _or not. - michael, what you make of civil service _or not. i. service impartiality or not. i mean, has the— service impartiality or not. i mean, has the civil service ototgoto— mean, has the civil service changed? are— mean, has the civil service changed? are there these oottrtst— changed? are there these activist elements? do you think ttot— activist elements? do you think ttot oortttto— activist elements? do you think that dominic raab speaks of? trott— that dominic raab speaks of? orott-ts— that dominic raab speaks of? well,-is clear- that dominic raab speaks of? well,-is clear is- that dominic raab speaks of? well, is clear is that the well, what is clear is that the rotottotsttr— well, what is clear is that the relationship between ministers and relationship between ministers ott orott— relationship between ministers and civil servants— relationship between ministers and civil servants has changed.

att— and civil servants has changed. art r— and civil servants has changed. art r tot-t— and civil servants has changed. and i don't know— and civil servants has changed. and i don't know from - and civil servants has changed. and i don't know from the- and i don't know from the distance that i'm now at to what extent ministers or civil servants are responsible for that. i do think the case of dominic raab and the ambassador to spain is a very interesting one. so it seems that the ambassador to spain went beyond the cabinet's remit in negotiations with spain over the post brexit arrangements in gibraltar . post brexit arrangements in gibraltar. he was summoned back. he was interviewed by raab. raab says that he did not give a coherent account of what he'd been saying to the spanish, which raab thought went beyond the cabinet remit . so what raab the cabinet remit. so what raab did then was to put the negotiation opens into somebody else's hands , as that would have else's hands, as that would have been humiliating for the ambassador. but it seems to me it would have been justified . it would have been justified. and the ambassador continued to be ambassador. he did not lose his job and i be ambassador. he did not lose hisjob and i think be ambassador. he did not lose his job and i think that illustrates quite a number of things that we're talking about here. so, of course , if you take here. so, of course, if you take action against someone who has not been doing the job as you think they should, person think they should, that person may find humiliating that

may find it humiliating that doesn't me necessarily mean doesn't to me necessarily mean it to do. it was the wrong thing to do. and that even though that and notice that even though that ambassador done something of ambassador had done something of which state which his secretary of state thoroughly , moved and thoroughly disobeyed, moved and was remit , he thoroughly disobeyed, moved and was remit, he was thoroughly disobeyed, moved and was remit , he was not was beyond his remit, he was not removed because removed from his job because civil servants never are removed from their jobs. civil servants never are removed from their jobs . yeah, michael, from their jobs. yeah, michael, we're a little tight on time, so just tell me quickly, who have you got coming on at 11? i've got yanis varoufakis coming on to talk about the parthenon marbles, whether they should go back to greece or not. i'm going to be talking about an author who's done a $200 million deal for film rights on a book. we're not even sure whether the author exists or certainly under the name that we're working with. we're talking about the theatre. berlusconi and blair. there's a play, a musical about berlusconi and blair can you imagine? and we're going to be talking about whether artificial intelligence can replace wigs and gowns. can artificial intelligence make judgements in courts . well, i

judgements in courts. well, i hope artificial ig “ i well,i hope artificial intelligence oott— hope artificial intelligence can't replace _ hope artificial intelligence can't replace tv presenters or rourtottsts— can't replace tv presenters or rourtottsts .— can't replace tv presenters or journalists . michael, really journalists. michael, really tootttg— journalists. michael, really looking forward to your show at 11. looking forward to your show at t tow,— looking forward to your show at t tow, tot-t— looking forward to your show at t tow, tot-t go— looking forward to your show at 11. now, don't go anywhere, tooouso— 11. now, don't go anywhere, tooouso tt— 11. now, don't go anywhere, because in just— 11. now, don't go anywhere, because in just a minute, i'm gottg— because in just a minute, i'm gottg to— because in just a minute, i'm gottg to to— because in just a minute, i'm going to be speaking to sir bill oost,— going to be speaking to sir bill oost, tto— going to be speaking to sir bill cash, the veteran— going to be speaking to sir bill cash, the veteran tory about cash, the veteran tory mp, about his cash, the veteran tory mp, about tts-ttts— cash, the veteran tory mp, about tts-ttts oroot— cash, the veteran tory mp, about his-this week to- cash, the veteran tory mp, about his this week to secure his mission this week to secure ttoso— his mission this week to secure those amendments to the those key amendments to the tttogot— those key amendments to the illegal migration— those key amendments to the illegal migration bill. go illegal migration bill. don't go otyrrtoro— illegal migration bill. don't go otywtoro .—

forward from this. join us here on gb news. the people's channel britain is . welcome back to the britain is. welcome back to the committee tommy show. now i'm joined by sir bill— committee tommy show. now i'm joined by sir bill cash,— committee tommy show. now i'm joined by sir bill cash, mp- i now i'm joined by sir bill cash, mp for stoto— joined by sir bill cash, mp for stoto .— joined by sir bill cash, mp for stoto . o— joined by sir bill cash, mp for stoto . o rory— joined by sir bill cash, mp for stone , a tory grandee who was stone, a tory grandee who was ttst— stone, a tory grandee who was first elected _ stone, a tory grandee who was first elected to _ stone, a tory grandee who was first elected to parliament in root — first elected to parliament in root str— first elected to parliament in 1984. sir bill— first elected to parliament in 1984. sir bill is— first elected to parliament in 1984. sir bill is going to explain— 1984. sir bill is going to explain the— 1984. sir bill is going to explain the amendments that he and explain the amendments that he ott tts— explain the amendments that he and his fellow— explain the amendments that he and his fellow tory rebels have porsuotot— and his fellow tory rebels have persuaded the— and his fellow tory rebels have persuaded the government to ttoorooroto — persuaded the government to incorporate into _ persuaded the government to incorporate into suella braverman illegal migration tit.— braverman illegal migration tttt-ttot-s— braverman illegal migration bill. .that's the- braverman illegal migration bill. that's the bill, of bill. and that's the bill, of course, that— bill. and that's the bill, of course, that the- bill. and that's the bill, of course, that the government is tosporototy— course, that the government is desperately hoping will finally stoo— desperately hoping will finally stoo-.— desperately hoping will finally stoo-. so,— desperately hoping will finally stoo-. so, gru- stop the boats. so, bill, absolutely— stop the boats. so, bill, absolutely delightful to see you this absolutely delightful to see you ttts-ttoo— absolutely delightful to see you ttts-ttoo to—

absolutely delightful to see you this- nice to .you, i this morning. nice to see you, too. — this morning. nice to see you, too. now— this morning. nice to see you, too. now-this— this morning. nice to see you, too. now-this bill- this morning. nice to see you, too. now this bill stop the too. now will this bill stop the boots?— too. now will this bill stop the boats? that's— too. now will this bill stop the boats? that's the— too. now will this bill stop the boats? that's the question. orott. — boats? that's the question. orott. r— boats? that's the question. orott. r-tt— boats? that's the question. well, i _it will- boats? that's the question. well, i - it will now l boats? that's the question. l well, i-it will now and well, i believe it will now and what said rishi when he was what i said to rishi when he was appearing a few appearing in the house a few weeks was we've got to make weeks ago was we've got to make sure this works. and i want to say something really important, which we've had a really which is that we've had a really constructive the constructive dialogue with the government, number 10 and government, with number 10 and with the prime minister and with suella braverman and we've now come up with something which i know they've put a huge amount of work into as well with some very, very brilliant assistance from external lawyers as well . from external lawyers as well. and we've actually improved the bill very much, made it much more relevant and tougher. but also fair and reasonable. so it doesn't get into a ” rit“ti so it doesn't get into a situation now rrtoroty— doesn't get into a situation now rrtoroty poopto— doesn't get into a situation now whereby people can, i believe, ottoot— whereby people can, i believe, ottoot tt— whereby people can, i believe, ottoot tt ot— whereby people can, i believe, attack it on grounds of international- attack it on grounds of international law, breach , but international law, breach, but at international law, breach, but ot tto— international law, breach, but ot tto sooto— international law, breach, but at the same time— international law, breach, but at the same time it will satisfy by at the same time it will satisfy ty tto— at the same time it will satisfy by the requirements which are to one by the requirements which are to ot— by the requirements which are to ot tto— by the requirements which are to one of the british— by the requirements which are to one of the british people. now support,— one of the british people. now support, ottot— one of the british people. now support, which is— one of the british people. now support, which is this bill in prttototo. — support, which is this bill in principle. but— support, which is this bill in principle. but this- support, which is this bill in principle. but this is the million dollar question. why

will it stop the boats and indeed result in people actually being deported to rwanda? to be fair to him, your opposition mp, jonathan ashworth told a quite good joke today. he basically said that more journalists had been to rwanda than actual been sent to rwanda than actual illegal migrants. i mean, he's right, isn't he? so far we've had no action on this. it must be hugely frustrating to backbenchers like you. well, it was. certainly backbenchers like you. well, it was. .certainly-the i was. and certainly when the tortors— was. and certainly when the borders nationality bill was borders and nationality bill was going— borders and nationality bill was going-a— borders and nationality bill was gottg-o-ot- borders and nationality bill wasi gottg-o-ot yoors going through a couple of years ago,— going through a couple of years ogor-tth— going through a couple of years ogor-tth ot- going through a couple of years ago, down an amendment ago, i did put down an amendment ottot— ago, i did put down an amendment rrttot os— ago, i did put down an amendment which was supported by about 70 ttts. — which was supported by about 70 ttts. tto— which was supported by about 70 mps. the effect— which was supported by about 70 mps. the effect of— which was supported by about 70 mps. the effect of which would too — mps. the effect of which would too toot— mps. the effect of which would too toot to — mps. the effect of which would have been to have— mps. the effect of which would have been to have displaced the tumor— have been to have displaced the tumor ttgtts— have been to have displaced the human rights act— have been to have displaced the human rights act to get ottogottor— human rights act to get altogether in— human rights act to get altogether in the european convention. _ altogether in the european convention. what we're now doing is convention. what we're now doing ts ootuotty— convention. what we're now doing is actually placing— convention. what we're now doing is actually placing a— convention. what we're now doing is actually placing a very severe restriction on the manner in severe restriction on the manner tt ottot— severe restriction on the manner tt rrttot tto— severe restriction on the manner in which the courts— severe restriction on the manner in which the courts can tttorostot— in which the courts can interpret it.— in which the courts can interpret it. the arrangements uttot— interpret it. the arrangements uttor tto— interpret it. the arrangements under the european convention. so under the european convention. so ttot— under the european convention. so that effect— under the european convention. so that effect albie, we're going— so that effect albie, we're gottg to — so that effect albie, we're gottg to to — so that effect albie, we're going to be able to prevent the oourts— going to be able to prevent the oourts trort — going to be able to prevent the courts from just— going to be able to prevent the courts from just simply making up ttot— courts from just simply making up ttotr oort— courts from just simply making up their own minds as to how to do up their own minds as to how to to rt.— up their own minds as to how to to t. att— up their own minds as to how to do it. and there's— up their own minds as to how to do it. and there's a— up their own minds as to how to do it. and there's a very trtportott— do it. and there's a very important principle here, oortttto— important principle here, camilla, and— important principle here, camilla, and it's this

parliamentary sovereignty and this parliamentary sovereignty and tttsrros— parliamentary sovereignty and tttswosttts— parliamentary sovereignty and this was this was— parliamentary sovereignty and this was this was also conceded by this was this was also conceded ty jack— this was this was also conceded ty root strot— this was this was also conceded by jack straw and— this was this was also conceded by jack straw and derry irvine. uttot— by jack straw and derry irvine. rrtot r— by jack straw and derry irvine. rrtot r os— by jack straw and derry irvine. when i was there,— by jack straw and derry irvine. when i was there, when the human ttgtts— when i was there, when the human rttgtts root— when i was there, when the human rttgtts aot ttst— when i was there, when the human rights act first came— when i was there, when the human rights act first came through, if parliament— rights act first came through, if parliament makes clear and utortttguousty— if parliament makes clear and unambiguously its intention oroot— unambiguously its intention otoorto— unambiguously its intention otoor to tto— unambiguously its intention clear to the to— unambiguously its intention clear to the to the courts, the oourts— clear to the to the courts, the oourts rrttt— clear to the to the courts, the courts will obey— clear to the to the courts, the courts will obey that. and ttot-s— courts will obey that. and that's what— courts will obey that. and that's what this bill will now do. that's what this bill will now to. r— that's what this bill will now to. r ooutt— that's what this bill will now to. r ooutt go— that's what this bill will now do. i could go into the detail, tut— do. i could go into the detail, tut r— do. i could go into the detail, tut r wot— do. i could go into the detail, but i won't. but— do. i could go into the detail, but i won't. but that is saying is but i won't. but that is saying ts tot— but i won't. but that is saying is we're not going— but i won't. but that is saying is we're not going to have a tost— is we're not going to have a tost rtttuto— is we're not going to have a last minute intervention from strostourg— last minute intervention from strasbourg when— last minute intervention from strasbourg when there's a bus tutt— strasbourg when there's a bus tutt ot— strasbourg when there's a bus tutt ot poopto— strasbourg when there's a bus full of people to— strasbourg when there's a bus full of people to be deported. ttot— full of people to be deported. ttot ts— full of people to be deported. that is exactly— full of people to be deported. that is exactly right.- full of people to be deported. $215ch ”g“ and that is exactly right. and actually, there's also- i ”g“ and actually, there's also going to be actually, there's also going to tolorooor— actually, there's also going to tolorooor-trttt- actually, there's also going to belproper-with usi actually, there's also going to. belproper-with us in be a proper dialogue with us in the be a proper dialogue with us in tto turoooot— be a proper dialogue with us in the european _the. the european court. and the oourts— the european court. and the oourts-tot— the european court. and the courts-not-to- the european court. and the courts-not-to be. the european court. and the. courts-not-to be able courts are not going to be able rust— courts are not going to be able iustldecide_ courts are not going to be able just-decide on— courts are not going to be able just decide on their own just to decide on their own oooout— just to decide on their own account what— just to decide on their own account what think , just on account what they think, just on rust— account what they think, just on iustlmotter— account what they think, just on just matter interpretation just a matter of interpretation . too—ttot— just a matter of interpretation . de—man-talk- just a matter of interpretation. . de—man-talk about . de—man and let's talk about migrants claim to under migrants who claim to be under 18 they're there's 18 when they're not. there's a really and frankly , really fascinating and frankly, ludicrous story in the mail on sunday this 42 year old sunday about this 42 year old jihadist with a beard and a receding hairline who claimed to have been a child . then he's got have been a child. then he's got a human rights lawyer on his case the government has case when the government has tried deport what do tried to deport him. what do your amendments do about that

kind situation .7 well, very kind of situation? well, very simply , the— kind of situation? well, very simply , the numbers- z w7 well, very simply , the numbers of people simply, the numbers of people who— simply, the numbers of people who at— simply, the numbers of people who at the— simply, the numbers of people who at the moment, i think in zon— who at the moment, i think in 2022 are— who at the moment, i think in 2022 are half— who at the moment, i think in 2022 are half the— who at the moment, i think in 2022 are half the people who coming— 2022 are half the people who were coming over— 2022 are half the people who were coming over and claiming to be claiming— were coming over and claiming to be deeming ee— were coming over and claiming to be claiming to be— were coming over and claiming to be claiming to be children were actually— be claiming to be children were actually adults— be claiming to be children were actually adults .— be claiming to be children were actually adults . and it's that actually adults. and it's that may.— actually adults. and it's that y se— actually adults. and it's that crazy so we— actually adults. and it's that crazy. so we really that is also going— crazy. so we really that is also going re— crazy. so we really that is also gerrg re re— crazy. so we really that is also going to be dealt— crazy. so we really that is also going to be dealt with. but the ere— going to be dealt with. but the viewers and the listeners will be thinking, how does how does a guy with a beard and a receding hairline completely absurd? do we know this happened? no, we know how this happened? no, because just he's an because he just claims he's an under— because he just claims he's an under-erre— because he just claims he's an under and everyone listens under 18 and everyone listens erre— under 18 and everyone listens ere-rrm. — under 18 and everyone listens ere-rrm-re- under 18 and everyone listensi and-him.-is what and believes him. this is what rere— and believes him. this is what rrrrelwrrere— and believes him. this is what this-where the— and believes him. this is what this where the tightening up. this is where the tightening up. it's this is where the tightening up. we rer— this is where the tightening up. we rer jeer— this is where the tightening up. it's not just tightening up, but the-prevention- it's not just tightening up, but the-prevention of- the actual prevention of situations— the actual prevention of situations had the actual prevention of. situations-had to the actual prevention of- situations-had to be situations like that had to be rearr— situations like that had to be deer-.— situations like that had to be deer-- arre— situations like that had to be dealt-. and that- situations like that had to be dealt . and that is going to dealt with. and that is going to be dealt with. and that is going to ere-wire.— dealt with. and that is going to be-wrrr. arre— dealt with. and that is going to be-with. and it's- dealt with. and that is going to be with. and it's really be dealt with. and it's really eeeerrrrer— be dealt with. and it's really essential-make- be dealt with. and it's really essential make sure that essential to make sure that peepre— essential to make sure that peepre wre— essential to make sure that people who are— essential to make sure that people who are just simply real earne— people who are just simply real eeurre den-r— people who are just simply real adults don't get— people who are just simply real adults don't get away with it. eur— adults don't get away with it. err rhe— adults don't get away with it. but the numbers— adults don't get away with it. but the numbers were really quire— but the numbers were really quite dramatically bad . 'r: but the numbers were really quite dramatically bad . ' r: quite dramatically bad. and on rear.— quite dramatically bad. and on tree. when— quite dramatically bad. and on tree. when you— quite dramatically bad. and on that, when you say deal with it, one of the amendments deals with this idea of proper age checking . is it with x rays? explain that to us. there is a in the

previous— that to us. there is a in the previous bill— that to us. there is a in the previous bill which- there is a in the previous bill which became an actr— previous bill which became an eer, rrere— previous bill which became an act, there was— previous bill which became an act, there was a— previous bill which became an act, there was a scientific assessment and now the situation is going— assessment and now the situation re going re— assessment and now the situation re gerrg re re— assessment and now the situation is going to be that— assessment and now the situation is going to be that it will be an assumption— is going to be that it will be an assumption that a person is not an assumption that a person is rer er— an assumption that a person is rer er rhe— an assumption that a person is rer er rrre ree— an assumption that a person is not at the age that they say rrey— not at the age that they say rrey ere— not at the age that they say rrey er— not at the age that they say they are, or if— not at the age that they say they are, or if they refuse to go rerererr— they are, or if they refuse to go through these checks and rear-e— go through these checks and were reeuy— go through these checks and that's really important because the that's really important because rrre recr— that's really important because rrre reer re— that's really important because the fact is that— that's really important because the fact is that they are means of the fact is that they are means or cheering— the fact is that they are means of checking what— the fact is that they are means of checking what a person's age is ry— of checking what a person's age is by scientific— of checking what a person's age is by scientific assessment. eur— is by scientific assessment. are wen-r— is by scientific assessment. but won't they— is by scientific assessment. but won't they be- is by scientific assessment. but won't they be able- is by scientific assessment. but won't they be able to claim all my human rights? you can't x ray me without my permission. no, that's where that's exactly the no, that's where that's exactly rrre perrr. — no, that's where that's exactly rrre perm. arre— no, that's where that's exactly the point. and in— no, that's where that's exactly the point. and in fact, this issue— the point. and in fact, this er— the point. and in fact, this issue of human— the point. and in fact, this issue of human is going issue of human rights is going to issue of human rights is going relerreekee— issue of human rights is going to checked against the to be checked against the background— to be checked against the background of— to be checked against the background of the manner in where— background of the manner in which he— background of the manner in which the courts— background of the manner in which the courts are entitled to here— which the courts are entitled to hrerhrer h.— which the courts are entitled to interpret it. and— which the courts are entitled to interpret it. and what is described— interpret it. and what is described as— interpret it. and what is described as serious harm is ecruehy— described as serious harm is ecrrehy going— described as serious harm is actually going to be defined according— actually going to be defined according rc— actually going to be defined according to whether or not here— according to whether or not here he— according to whether or not there is real— according to whether or not there is real harm or there her-r— there is real harm or there her-r rech— there is real harm or there isn't real harm.- there is real harm or there isn't real harm. and that means cher— isn't real harm. and that means her here— isn't real harm. and that means her here he— isn't real harm. and that means that there is going— isn't real harm. and that means that there is going to be a proper— that there is going to be a proper definition of what harm is. proper definition of what harm he. are— proper definition of what harm is. and therefore,— proper definition of what harm is. and therefore, the interpreter- is. and therefore, the interpreter of the courts is going— interpreter of the courts is gerhg rc— interpreter of the courts is gerhg he he— interpreter of the courts is going to be restricted because rhey-re— going to be restricted because rhey-re her— going to be restricted because rhey-re her her— going to be restricted because they're not just going to be ehhe— they're not just going to be he he— they're not just going to be he he cry,— they're not just going to be

able to say, oh,— they're not just going to be able to say, oh, we think that he— able to say, oh, we think that his he— able to say, oh, we think that his he a— able to say, oh, we think that this is a human— able to say, oh, we think that this is a human rights issue and rherehcre— this is a human rights issue and therefore we're— this is a human rights issue and therefore we're going to let it go merch— therefore we're going to let it go through. they're to go through. they're going to have— go through. they're going to have-actually— go through. they're going to have actually themselves a have to actually themselves as a coerc— have to actually themselves as a core-here— have to actually themselves as a court,-into account- have to actually themselves as a court, into account the court, take into account the ruhec— court, take into account the rurec here— court, take into account the rules laid down— court, take into account the rules laid down by parliament. so backbenchers,— rules laid down by parliament. so backbenchers, including- so backbenchers, including yourself, has done a good job on the bill. but then what happens when the government when it goes to the government together the government? together with the government? what happens when it goes the what happens when it goes to the house lords? well, i'm afraid house of lords? well, i'm afraid cher— house of lords? well, i'm afraid her here— house of lords? well, i'm afraid her here a— house of lords? well, i'm afraid that that's a real— 37 well, i'm afraid that that's a real problem. um, che— that that's a real problem. um, ere-heare— that that's a real problem. um, and-heard quite- that that's a real problem. um, and-heard quite a- that that's a real problem. um, and heard quite a lot of and i have heard quite a lot of hechhe— and i have heard quite a lot of people-off— and i have heard quite a lot of people-off hr- and i have heard quite a lot of people-off in the- and i have heard quite a lot of people off in the house people voicing off in the house of people voicing off in the house ch-eheeey— people voicing off in the house of-alreadylcourse,- people voicing off in the house of already course, they of lords already of course, they her-r— of lords already of course, they weer—eh— won't have seen all the amendments- won't have seen all the amendments have won't have seen all the amendments-have put amendments that have been put eche— amendments that have been put down her— amendments that have been put down that might— amendments that have been put down that might make it worse, ecruehy— down that might make it worse, ecruehy h— down that might make it worse, ecruehy h e— down that might make it worse, actually, in a funny kind of way,— actually, in a funny kind of hey—rci actually, in a funny kind of. hey—re he way, because they seem to be very—cherr- way, because they seem to be very—about this, i very ideological about this, come-chem— very ideological about this, some .them .the - very ideological about this,. some .them .the - is some of them and the fact is rhey-re— some of them and the fact is rhey-re her— some of them and the fact is they're not elected . they are they're not elected. they are her— they're not elected. they are her erecrech — they're not elected. they are not elected. they— they're not elected. they are not elected. they have to have regard— not elected. they have to have regard rc— not elected. they have to have regard re whar— not elected. they have to have regard to what the— not elected. they have to have regard to what the house of commerc— regard to what the house of commons has— regard to what the house of commons has said. and bear in china— commons has said. and bear in mind char— commons has said. and bear in mind that when— commons has said. and bear in mind that when this bill, as i heheve— mind that when this bill, as i heheve h— mind that when this bill, as i believe it-will- mind that when this bill, as i believe it will through believe it will, will go through aharhehaea— believe it will, will go through unamended in— believe it will, will go through unamended in the next few days , unamended in the next few days, rhea— unamended in the next few days, here r— unamended in the next few days, here r rhhh— unamended in the next few days, then i think the— unamended in the next few days, then i think the house of lords hac— then i think the house of lords has an— then i think the house of lords has an obligation,— then i think the house of lords has an obligation, having regard to has an obligation, having regard re pumic— has an obligation, having regard re hahhc. rye— has an obligation, having regard to public. we know how they behaved.— to public. we know how they hehavea. r— to public. we know how they behaved. i know.— to public. we know how they behaved. i know. well, they have acraahy— behaved. i know. well, they have acraahy heeh— behaved. i know. well, they have actually been very— behaved. i know. well, they have actually been very behaving very,— actually been very behaving very, very—

actually been very behaving very, very .— actually been very behaving yery, very , r— actually been very behaving very, very , i think unreasonably very, very, i think unreasonably on a number of— very, very, i think unreasonably on a number of issues over the racc— on a number of issues over the hash rew— on a number of issues over the hash few ccahre— on a number of issues over the last few couple of— on a number of issues over the last few couple of years. so here— last few couple of years. so here he— last few couple of years. so here he a— last few couple of years. so there is a real— last few couple of years. so there is a real issue here about cchcrhare— there is a real issue here about constitute national— there is a real issue here about constitute national propriety aha— constitute national propriety and r— constitute national propriety and r rhhh— constitute national propriety and i think the— constitute national propriety and i think the house of lords warhe— and i think the house of lords wahrc rc— and i think the house of lords wahrc he he— and i think the house of lords wants to be very— and i think the house of lords wants to be very aware that this is wants to be very aware that this he a— wants to be very aware that this he a carry— wants to be very aware that this he a reahhy big— wants to be very aware that this is a really big issue for the hrhrheh— is a really big issue for the british people.— is a really big issue for the british people. prime minister has british people. prime minister hae mache— british people. prime minister hae rhaae hhe— british people. prime minister has made his position clear. we have— has made his position clear. we have acraahhy— has made his position clear. we have actually made it clear that our have actually made it clear that hchhcy— have actually made it clear that pchhcy he— have actually made it clear that pchhcy he he— have actually made it clear that our policy is to deal with and to our policy is to deal with and re eer— our policy is to deal with and re area away— our policy is to deal with and to get away from _ our policy is to deal with and to get away from a situation where— to get away from a situation where peache— to get away from a situation where people are allowed to stay on where people are allowed to stay are when— where people are allowed to stay are when rhey— where people are allowed to stay on when they shouldn't. and we need— on when they shouldn't. and we need rc— on when they shouldn't. and we need to detain— on when they shouldn't. and we need to detain people and also to need to detain people and also re chee— need to detain people and also re rherh— need to detain people and also to move them out— need to detain people and also to move them out swiftly . ' hi; to move them out swiftly. arnie so to move them out swiftly. arnie so yea— to move them out swiftly. arnie so you her— to move them out swiftly. arnie so you think this— to move them out swiftly. arnie so you think this is going to work in a nutshell? bill i do. i really do think it will work. he— i really do think it will work. he a— i really do think it will work. he a great— i really do think it will work. it's a great improvement on the prevhcae — it's a great improvement on the previous. there— it's a great improvement on the previous. there will still be argumehre— previous. there will still be argumentsii'm_ previous. there will still be arguments i'm about that. arguments, i'm sure about that. her— arguments, i'm sure about that. her-rhe— arguments, i'm sure about that. her-rhhe he— arguments, i'm sure about that. her-rhhe he a— arguments, i'm sure about that. but-this is a great- but i believe this is a great hrhhrcverhehr— but i believe this is a great improvement a lot improvement and we've made a lot of improvement and we've made a lot car-ha— improvement and we've made a lot ch-hh rhe— improvement and we've made a lot ch-hh rhe haer— improvement and we've made a lot of-in the last month.- of progress in the last month. hhhh— of progress in the last month. hhhh caeh— of progress in the last month. bill cash there'll_ of progress in the last month. bill cash there'll always be argumehre— bill cash there'll always be arguments, not— bill cash there'll always be arguments, not just in ecverhrhehr- government opposition against the government opposition against rhe—vvhrhhh- government opposition against the _within the| the tories, but also within the hcrhee—h- the tories, but also within the tories—i think. the tories, but also within the. tories—i think that tories themselves. i think that is also true. you very is also true. thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning. well have it. morning. well there we have it. what spoken the about what a show spoken to the about the deputy pm spoken to the

the old deputy pm spoken to the new one. we've it all, new one. we've covered it all, haven't don't forget that haven't we? don't forget that michael next at michael portillo is here next at 11:00 i'll be back week 11:00 and i'll be back next week at 930 .

good morning and welcome to i good morning and welcome to sahaay— i good morning and welcome to sunday vhrh— . good morning and welcome to sunday with michael— good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo vhrh— sunday with michael portillo vhrh rvc— sunday with michael portillo with two hours— sunday with michael portillo with two hours of good conversation - with two hours of good conversation arts and entertain aha— conversation arts and entertain and erhhcah— conversation arts and entertain and ethical dilemmas and a sense of he— and ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous— and ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous to— and ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous to coming up are— of the ridiculous to coming up aher rhe— of the ridiculous to coming up after the resignation of a cherry— after the resignation of a hepary hrhrhe— after the resignation of a deputy prime minister over hahhyhhe— deputy prime minister over bullying allegations means where chee— bullying allegations means where he rhar— bullying allegations means where does that leave _ bullying allegations means where does that leave democrats ecverhrhehr— does that leave democrats government if— does that leave democrats government if the work of civil eervahre— government if the work of civil eervahre he— government if the work of civil servants is not— government if the work of civil servants is not up— government if the work of civil servants is not up to standard,