soon good morning. and welcome to the camilla tominey show. now eagle eyed observers— camilla tominey show. now eagle eyed observers will— camilla tominey show. now eagle eyed observers will see— now eagle eyed observers will see that i'm not in— eyed observers will see that i'm not in my— eyed observers will see that i'm not in my normal— eyed observers will see that i'm not in my normal studio. it's quite— not in my normal studio. it's quite exciting— not in my normal studio. it's quite exciting actually. gb news has quite exciting actually. gb news hee gee— quite exciting actually. gb news has got new— quite exciting actually. gb news has got new studios coming in westminster— has got new studios coming in westminster in— has got new studios coming in westminster in the near future , westminster in the near future, and— westminster in the near future, and in— westminster in the near future, and in the— westminster in the near future, and in the meantime i'm going to be-so_ and in the meantime i'm going to be-so buckingham- and in the meantime i'm going to be so buckingham palace be here. so buckingham palace teet— be here. so buckingham palace last week,— be here. so buckingham palace last week, this— be here. so buckingham palace last week, this here, we'll last week, this week here, we'll move—and. move anywhere, frankly, and bring— move anywhere, frankly, and brine—you.- move anywhere, frankly, and- bring—yeu-we-ve bring the news to you. and we've got bring the news to you. and we've gee-fun— bring the news to you. and we've gee-fun peeked- bring the news to you. and we've got-fun packed-as. got a really fun packed show as is got a really fun packed show as e the— got a really fun packed show as is ever the case,— got a really fun packed show as is ever the case, shapps,

is ever the case, grant shapps, the—goingl is ever the case, grant shapps,| the—going ee the energy secretary is going to be—askingl be on. i'm going to be asking him— be on. i'm going to be asking him-about- be on. i'm going to be asking him-about the- be on. i'm going to be asking him about the net zero him naturally about the net zero plane— him naturally about the net zero plane-tories— him naturally about the net zero plans-tories keep- plans that the tories keep on pursuing,— plans that the tories keep on pursuing, though pursuing, even though their veeee— pursuing, even though their voters don't— pursuing, even though their voters don't necessarily like pursuing, even though their votersbecause acessarily like pursuing, even though their votersbecause they arily like pursuing, even though their votersbecause they cost like more them because they cost them more money — them because they cost them more noey n-n— them because they cost them more money in neo— them because they cost them more money. i'm also going to be speaking— money. i'm also going to be speaking jonathan speaking to jonathan reynolds, the speaking to jonathan reynolds, one—seonenonyl the shadow business secretary nnon-e—one- that's an interesting one because— that's an interesting one. because-manifesto because labour's manifesto appeare— because labour's manifesto oppeonlnove— because labour's manifesto appears have leaked because labour's manifesto- appearslhave-leaked and appears to have been leaked and it's appears to have been leaked and n-e-onne— appears to have been leaked and it's quite interesting it's got some quite interesting neon— it's got some quite interesting neon-nu— it's got some quite interesting ioeoe-n-u ne- ideas in it that i'll be quizzing— ideas in it that i'll be quizzing-on. - ideas in it that i'll be quizzing on. and ideas in it that ru be- quizzing -on. and we've ideas in it that i'll be- quizzing-on. and we've got quizzing him on. and we've got a tense— quizzing him on. and we've got a tense stoned— quizzing him on. and we've got a lesser spotted liberal democrat on-jardine_ lesser spotted liberal democrat on-jardine te- lesser spotted liberal democrat on jardine is going to on christine jardine is going to ton— on christine jardine is going to join me— on christine jardine is going to join ._ on christine jardine is going to join . nont— on christine jardine is going to join me. i want find out join me. i want to find out nnetnen— join me. i want to find out whether-will- join me. i want to find out whether-will go- join me. i want to find out whether will go into whether they will go into coonton— whether they will go into coalition labour could coalition with labour. could it be coalition with labour. could it toe—on- coalition with labour. could it toe—on onooel coalition with labour. could iti toe—on enooee be another coalition of chaos? i'll be another coalition of chaos? int-ano— be another coalition of chaos? tu-ano tn- be another coalition of chaos? i'll-and i'm also- be another coalition of chaos? i'll and i'm also going i'll ask her. and i'm also going toljoined_ i'll ask her. and i'm also going toltotneo ny— i'll ask her. and i'm also going to joined by george brandis , to be joined by george brandis, nno-e— to be joined by george brandis, who's—australian. to be joined by george brandis, who's australian high who's the former australian high commissioner-i'm- commissioner to uk. i'm just intrigued— commissioner to uk. i'm just tntngneo ny— commissioner to uk. i'm just intrigued by this— commissioner to uk. i'm just intrigued by this whole talk about— intrigued by this whole talk about australia— intrigued by this whole talk about australia maybe going repente— about australia maybe going republic because it's now a left wing— republic because it's now a left wing government— republic because it's now a left wing government in power and i'm wondering— wing government in power and i'm wondering whether— wing government in power and i'm wondering whether albanese is going— wondering whether albanese is going to— wondering whether albanese is going to move— wondering whether albanese is going to move now that going to move with that now that the going to move with that now that tne king— going to move with that now that tne king to— going to move with that now that tne king to on— going to move with that now that the king is on throne, the king is on the throne, onnonen— the king is on the throne, although fawned over the king is on the throne,- although .fawned .over him although he fawned all over him at neckingnon— although he fawned all over him at buckingham palace last weekend.— at buckingham palace last weekend. this at buckingham palace last weakend. this at buckingham palace last wea really this at buckingham palace last wea really interesting this at buckingham palace last wea really interesting one. this at buckingham palace last wea really interesting one. sir this is a really interesting one. sir cnonee— is a really interesting one. sir charles walker— is a really interesting one. sir charles walker is— is a really interesting one. sir charles walker is going be charles walker is going to be teutng— charles walker is going to be tetune ne— charles walker is going to be telling me-what- charles walker is going to be telling me what it's like telling me about what it's like tene— telling me about what it's like tent—unno- being in politics and living witn— being in politics and living non..— being in politics and living with -,-that's- being in politics and living with -,-that's to. being in politics and living. with -,-that's to mark with ocd, and that's to mark nentot— with ocd, and that's to mark mental awareness week. mental health awareness week. now:— mental health awareness week. non—yon- now, let's first take you tnnongn—

now, let's first take you - through-headlines and through the news headlines and the—headlines- through the news headlines and the—headlines of- through the news headlines and the headlines of the the indeed the headlines of the sunny— the indeed the headlines of the sunny poten— the indeed the headlines of the sunday papers this morning as we annoye— sunday papers this morning as we envoys-ston— sunday papers this morning as we always-start with- sunday papers this morning as we always start with the always do. let's start with the sunny— always do. let's start with the sunday telegraph and that optoenee— sunday telegraph and that splashes with— sunday telegraph and that splashes with labour to give eu citizens— splashes with labour to give eu citizens tne— splashes with labour to give eu citizens the vote.— splashes with labour to give eu citizens the vote. that's eonetntne— citizens the vote. that's something we're going to be exptonng— something we're going to be exploring-later- something we're going to be exploring later in exploring a little later in the snow.— exploring a little later in the snow—on- exploring a little later in the show._of keir- exploring a little later in the- show._of keir starmer show. that's one of keir starmer neon— show. that's one of keir starmer men. one— show. that's one of keir starmer ideas. the sunday— show. that's one of keir starmer ideas. the sunday times goes witn— ideas. the sunday times goes non-nursing— ideas. the sunday times goes with nursing union chief in with no nursing union chief in u—tnnn— with no nursing union chief in u—tnnn oven— with no nursing union chief in u—tnnn toy— with no nursing union chief in u—turn over pay deal. that's about— u—turn over pay deal. that's about not— u—turn over pay deal. that's about pat cullen— u—turn over pay deal. that's about pat cullen , the head of about pat cullen, the head of ne— about pat cullen, the head of tne tcn — about pat cullen, the head of the rcn apparently wanting a tonne— the rcn apparently wanting a tontte ttett— the rcn apparently wanting a double digit wage increase. the net— double digit wage increase. the not on— double digit wage increase. the mail on sunday— double digit wage increase. the mail on sunday splashes kate's tntotteton— mail on sunday splashes kate's eurovision tribute— mail on sunday splashes kate's eurovision tribute to ukraine. tnot-e— eurovision tribute to ukraine. tnot-e tne— eurovision tribute to ukraine. that's the princess of wales being— that's the princess of wales being tn— that's the princess of wales tetng tn tnot— that's the princess of wales being in that beautiful blue trees— being in that beautiful blue tteee ont— being in that beautiful blue dress and playing the piano. the suntoy— dress and playing the piano. the suntoy typese— dress and playing the piano. the sunday express rishi's vow. i wont— sunday express rishi's vow. i wont totte— sunday express rishi's vow. i wont tntge ,— sunday express rishi's vow. i won't budge , he— sunday express rishi's vow. i won't budge , he says. that's won't budge, he says. that's about— won't budge, he says. that's about mm.— won't budge, he says. that's about him. with— won't budge, he says. that's about him. with regard to facing pteeente tton — about him. with regard to facing pressure from some of the right ntngete— pressure from some of the right ntneete tn— pressure from some of the right ntngete tn nie— pressure from some of the right wingers in his party. the sun on sunday— wingers in his party. the sun on sunny goee— wingers in his party. the sun on sunday goes with— wingers in his party. the sun on sunday goes with rio nabs tnttntet— sunday goes with rio nabs intruder-raid- sunday goes with rio nabs intruder raid terror. intruder in home raid terror. tnot-e— intruder in home raid terror. note about— intruder in home raid terror. that's about the _ intruder in home raid terror. that's about the former footballer— that's about the former footballer rio- that's about the former footballer rio ferdinand the sunny— footballer rio ferdinand the sunday mirror. _ footballer rio ferdinand the sunday mirror. i'm a celeb saved me non— sunday mirror. i'm a celeb saved me from cancer— sunday mirror. i'm a celeb saved me from cancer and— sunday mirror. i'm a celeb saved me from cancer and that's about an me from cancer and that's about on toettntete— me from cancer and that's about an eastenders star— me from cancer and that's about an eastenders star being spotted witn— an eastenders star being spotted nttn eoneet— an eastenders star being spotted with cancer after— an eastenders star being spotted with cancer after he appeared on

the with cancer after he appeared on tne teottty— with cancer after he appeared on tne teottty tv— with cancer after he appeared on the reality tv show— with cancer after he appeared on the reality tv show . now let me the reality tv show. now let me bring— the reality tv show. now let me bring tn— the reality tv show. now let me tnng tn ny— the reality tv show. now let me bring in my paper— the reality tv show. now let me bring in my paper reviewer extraordinaire,— bring in my paper reviewer extraordinaire, michael portillo , tormen— extraordinaire, michael portillo , former defence— extraordinaire, michael portillo , former defence secretary and gb , former defence secretary and on tene— , former defence secretary and gb news presenter from 11. ntenoet— gb news presenter from 11. ntenoet ._ gb news presenter from 11. michael i love— gb news presenter from 11. michael i love this double enttttng— michael i love this double shifting you're— michael i love this double shifting you're doing . honestly, shifting you're doing. honestly, this shifting you're doing. honestly, tnte te— shifting you're doing. honestly, tnte te nont— shifting you're doing. honestly, this is hard work— shifting you're doing. honestly, this is hard work incarnate. toe-te— this is hard work incarnate. wete gong— this is hard work incarnate. wete gotng to— this is hard work incarnate. we're going to come- this is hard work incarnate. we're going to come to- this is hard work incarnate. we're going to come to labour's attitude to hard work in a moment. we will come that moment. we will come to that great stuff. now of all, great stuff. now first of all, tet-e— great stuff. now first of all, ten tott— great stuff. now first of all, let's talk about— gflzua now first of all, let's talk about interview of ne— let's talk about interview of tne-tn— let's talk about interview of tne-tn-nott- the day. it's in the mail on sunny.— the day. it's in the mail on sunday.-sunak- the day. it's in the mail on sunday. sunak spoken to sunday. rishi sunak spoken to the sunday. rishi sunak spoken to tne potttteot— sunday. rishi sunak spoken to the political owen. the political editor glen owen. i the political editor glen owen. t—tne- the political editor glen owen. t—tne toy.- the political editor glen owen.| t—tne toy. tney i say interview of the day. they tttn-t— i say interview of the day. they tint-it.— i say interview of the day. they tttn-t-tt. tt-e— i say interview of the day. they didn't-it. it's great- i say interview of the day. they didn't it. it's great to didn't splash it. it's great to get— didn't splash it. it's great to get it— didn't splash it. it's great to get it ont— didn't splash it. it's great to get it and it's— didn't splash it. it's great to get it and it's a— didn't splash it. it's great to get it and it's a nice sit down. ant— get it and it's a nice sit down. ant ttent — get it and it's a nice sit down. ant ttent te— get it and it's a nice sit down. and rishi is all— get it and it's a nice sit down. and rishi is all very much, you know,— and rishi is all very much, you know, tn— and rishi is all very much, you know, i'm steadying the ship but it tttn-t— know, i'm steadying the ship but it didn't elicit— know, i'm steadying the ship but it didn't elicit many news know, i'm steadying the ship but it didiis elicit many news know, i'm steadying the ship but it didiis thist many news know, i'm steadying the ship but it didiis this justiny news know, i'm steadying the ship but it didiis this just because lines. is this just because oetnotty— lines. is this just because actually the— lines. is this just because actually the prime minister is a bit actually the prime minister is a tttieotety— actually the prime minister is a bit-safety first— actually the prime minister is a bit-safety first in- actually the prime minister is a bit safety first in his bit too safety first in his oggtooene— bit too safety first in his approach? yes, absolutely . approach? yes, absolutely. i think— approach? yes, absolutely. i tttnt tt-e— approach? yes, absolutely. i tttnt no n— approach? yes, absolutely. i think it's a bit— approach? yes, absolutely. i think it's a bit of— approach? yes, absolutely. i think it's a bit of a- approach? yes, absolutely. i think it's a bit of a nightmare that an interview with prime that an interview with the prime minister buried the middle minister is buried in the middle of the newspaper . some of the newspaper. and some of what read, found rather what i read, i found rather painful. this stuff painful. there's all this stuff about how the coronation cons hurt his wife, encouraged rishi to dance, and they got dancing and i mean this. this is theresa may territory, isn't it? this is a man who's been told by his

advisers that he's perceived as not having an outgoing personality. and what can you do to fill in the gaps ? so i found to fill in the gaps? so i found it a painful interview . it rather a painful interview. but the politics is but as far as the politics is concerned , all really to concerned, all he really has to say that it's steady as we go say is that it's steady as we go settling the ship and so on. but thatis settling the ship and so on. but that is not what a lot of people in his party want. yeah priti patel and others are talking a very different sort of language . and priti patel and others are saying it's not just we who think on wrong lines think you're on the wrong lines . the voters think . it looks like the voters think that the that as well, because the results local elections results in the local elections were even worse than the worst predictions that have been made by party. they're managing. by the party. they're managing. managing of expectations enpeteetet— managing of expectations superseded even their own expectations. _ superseded even their own- expectations. -speaking expectations. i mean, speaking as which obviously as a tory voter, which obviously i am, what is my reason for voting tory next time? what is it the tories are offering me? they're offering me high public spending high taxation when spending and high taxation when they differentiation on they have no differentiation on these matters with labour and you know, how do you win elections unless you differentiate your party, and particularly unless you

differentiate your party along lines that people expect? yes at the moment the conservative party is not following the conservative party brand and that seems to me quite a difficult electoral strategy. let's just try and defendyrishi let's just try and defend rishi senat— let's just try and defend rishi snnot nee— let's just try and defend rishi sunak here because lots of oeonte— sunak here because lots of people tett— sunak here because lots of people tell me— sunak here because lots of people tell me how they love him teeonee— people tell me how they love him teeonee ne-e— people tell me how they love him because he's extremely hard working — because he's extremely hard notttng. ne-e— because he's extremely hard working. he's his brief . working. he's across his brief. he working. he's across his brief. ne ott— working. he's across his brief. ne ttt note— working. he's across his brief. he did have a— working. he's across his brief. he did have a burgeoning in—tray teeonee— he did have a burgeoning in—tray teeonee petnope— he did have a burgeoning in—tray because perhaps his predecessors not— because perhaps his predecessors were not across their brief. so nee— were not across their brief. so ne-e got— were not across their brief. so ne-e got o— were not across their brief. so ne-e got o very— were not across their brief. so he's got a very tough job, teen-t— he's got a very tough job, noen-t nee— he's got a very tough job, hasn't he? and- he's got a very tough job, hasn't he? and he could be eoytng— hasn't he? and he could be eoytng, toot,— hasn't he? and he could be saying, look, we've had enough of saying, look, we've had enough ot-notty— saying, look, we've had enough of-motty politics. - of personal motty politics. tie-te— of personal motty politics. ne-te—ot- of personal motty politics.| we've—of chaos of personal motty politics.- we've_of chaos and we've had enough of chaos and eonnetont — we've had enough of chaos and confusion. steadying the confusion. i am steadying the ship-— confusion. i am steadying the entn. tn— confusion. i am steadying the entn. tn o— confusion. i am steadying the entp. tn o very— confusion. i am steadying the ship. i'm a very safe pair of nonte— ship. i'm a very safe pair of nonte. ant— ship. i'm a very safe pair of hands. and actually, that's not teet— hands. and actually, that's not net—neede- just what the party needs, but the just what the party needs, but tne-neete. — just what the party needs, but the-needs. right- just what the party needs, but the needs. right now. the country needs. right now. tnete— the country needs. right now. tnete te— the country needs. right now. tnete te on— the country needs. right now. there is an argument that. there is an argument for that. tonttto— there is an argument for that. tonttto-tne- there is an argument for that. portillo-the sense. portillo i mean in the sense not— portillo i mean in the sense tnot nee— portillo i mean in the sense that he's kind— portillo i mean in the sense that he's kind of— portillo i mean in the sense that he's kind of managed to etoee— that he's kind of managed to etoee tnot— that he's kind of managed to etoee tnot goo,— that he's kind of managed to close that gap, which was gaping unten— close that gap, which was gaping nntet ttz— close that gap, which was gaping under liz truss— close that gap, which was gaping under liz truss and— close that gap, which was gaping under liz truss and following the under liz truss and following tne treet— under liz truss and following the break down— under liz truss and following the break down of the economic tottey— the break down of the economic pottey, .,_ the break down of the economic pottey, ., ._ the break down of the economic pottey, ., t grant— the break down of the economic policy, i, i grant you all of not— policy, i, i grant you all of tnot ,— policy, i, i grant you all of tnot , tut— policy, i, i grant you all of that , but those- policy, i, i grant you all of that, but those are policy, i, i grant you all of that , but those are not policy, i, i grant you all of that, but those are not things not— that, but those are not things tnot tn— that, but those are not things tnot tn tne— that, but those are not things that in the end— that, but those are not things that in the end will win the eteetton— that in the end will win the eteetton . — that in the end will win the election . they— that in the end will win the election . "t; that in the end will win the- election . they may they may stop election. they may they may stop a complete rout. they may stop

the conservatives being wiped out. i agree that had liz truss remained in place that might have been what happened. but but i think those in the conservative party who are saying, you've steadied saying, okay, you've steadied the ship, you have all these credentials, you are a trustworthy person, you're also a very likeable person . you have a very likeable person. you have marvellous personal qualities, but you've also got to give people reasons for voting conservative. yes, i think there's quite a lot in that as well. one the reasons why well. one of the reasons why oeonte— well. one of the reasons why oeonte-eoytng— well. one of the reasons why people - saying that - one of the reasons why people saying that they people are saying that they ntgnt— people are saying that they ntgnt vote— people are saying that they might vote conservative is teeotee— might vote conservative is because will because they think labour will because they think labour will. te—tntnt be even worse. and what i think is be even worse. and what i think te-tnteteettng— be even worse. and what i think is-interesting when- be even worse. and what i think is interesting when it is also interesting when it comes-this— is also interesting when it comes this manifesto is comes to this manifesto is nnetnet— comes to this manifesto is whetherldoes- comes to this manifesto is whether does ma what whether it does ma with what oeonte— whether it does ma with what oeonte-eoytng— whether it does ma with what peonte-eoytng tn- whether it does ma with what people saying in general people are saying in general otott— people are saying in general about-starmer- people are saying in general about-starmer a- people are saying in general about starmer a of about keir starmer a lack of oottey— about keir starmer a lack of policy platform— about keir starmer a lack of policy platform and all the rest of policy platform and all the rest ot-tnete-e— of it. now there's an interesting- of it. now there's an- interesting-because interesting piece because everyone's having on everyone's having their say on tne.— everyone's having their say on this-everyone's- this. of course, everyone's nottng— this. of course, everyone's nottng-eoy- this. of course, everyone's novtng-eoy on- this. of course, everyone's having say on what both having their say on what both the having their say on what both tne—ont- having their say on what both. the—and-shadow the government and the shadow tottetee— the government and the shadow policies should— the government and the shadow policies should i'm policies should be. i'm interested— policies should be. i'm- interested-shipman's interested in tim shipman's nteee— interested in tim shipman's gteee, nnten— interested in tim shipman's piece, which were called the tntnt— piece, which were called the think piece— piece, which were called the think piece-day,- piece, which were called the think piece day, because think piece of the day, because ne-e— think piece of the day, because ne-e totttng— think piece of the day, because he's talking about— think piece of the day, because he's talking about backseat tnvete. — he's talking about backseat tnvete. lon— he's talking about backseat drivers..on one- he's talking about backseat drivers. on one hand you've drivers. so on one hand you've got— drivers. so on one hand you've got tttent — drivers. so on one hand you've got rishi -plagued- drivers. so on one hand you've got rishi plagued by the got rishi sunak plagued by the tttee— got rishi sunak plagued by the tttee ot— got rishi sunak plagued by the tttee ot ttz— got rishi sunak plagued by the likes of liz truss— got rishi sunak plagued by the likes of liz truss off to totnon — likes of liz truss off to taiwan, johnson

likes of liz truss off to- taiwan,-johnson making his taiwan, boris johnson making his tntenenttone— taiwan, boris johnson making his interventions on— taiwan, boris johnson making his interventions on brexit. theresa mav— interventions on brexit. theresa ttoy ongotentty— interventions on brexit. theresa may apparently sitting in the coon— may apparently sitting in the commons complaining about the tnntgtotton— commons complaining about the immigration stuff.— commons complaining about the immigration stuff. you've then got on— immigration stuff. you've then got on tne— immigration stuff. you've then got on the left,— immigration stuff. you've then got on the left, tony blair. the tony— got on the left, tony blair. the tony ntott— got on the left, tony blair. the tony blair institute seems to be ttttng— tony blair institute seems to be ttnng tntnge— tony blair institute seems to be firing things into— tony blair institute seems to be firing things into my inbox every— firing things into my inbox every tne— firing things into my inbox every five minutes. we've also go even— every five minutes. we've also go even further— every five minutes. we've also go even further back and look at ootton— go even further back and look at gordon brown— go even further back and look at gordon brown making interventions. john major toeen-t— interventions. john major doesn't seem— interventions. john major doesn't seem to be able to zip it doesn't seem to be able to zip tt .— doesn't seem to be able to zip tt . so— doesn't seem to be able to zip tt . so nove— doesn't seem to be able to zip it . so have-too- doesn't seem to be able to zip it . so have too much it. so have we got too much toeteeot— it. so have we got too much backseat driving— it. so have we got too much backseat driving in politics? tttenoet— backseat driving in politics? michael well,— backseat driving in politics? michael well, the number of ev—nttne— michael well, the number of ex—prime ministers is in excess of ex—prime ministers is in excess ot onytntng— ex—prime ministers is in excess of anything that— ex—prime ministers is in excess of anything that you and i have evoetteneet— of anything that you and i have experienced before. however, the phenomenon is not in any way new. ted heath criticised margaret thatcher. margaret thatcher criticised john major , thatcher criticised john major, john major took boris johnson to the supreme court. can you imagine a former conservative prime minister taking a present conservative prime minister to the supreme court? there's the supreme court? so there's nothing particularly new and i mean, it has made me chuckle because i saw john major up close in those days and i know how wounded and hurt he was every that margaret every time that margaret thatcher and you thatcher made a comment. and you know, he the way he attacked

bods know, he the way he attacked boris , the john major boris, the john major was extraordinary . and i also think extraordinary. and i also think there's an even broader phenomenon here, which is we are a country now that has no agreement about our destiny whatsoever. yes you know, obviously, we're divided on whether to be in europe or not. in europe, we're divided about our global role . we're not even our global role. we're not even 100% sure about nato and the united states and so on. but even on sort of things that are purely domestic , you know, do we purely domestic, you know, do we want a new railway? do want to build a new railway? do we want a third runway at heathrow? have no consensus . heathrow? we have no consensus. we have no agreement. has there ever been consensus?— we have no agreement. has there ever been consensus? i— any; egtznzfitzg’x has there ever been consensus? i mean, noven-t— ever been consensus? i mean, noven-t tneee— ever been consensus? i mean, haven't these arguments between left haven't these arguments between tett ont— haven't these arguments between tett ont ntgnt— haven't these arguments between left and right always existed ? i left and right always existed? i oppteetote— left and right always existed? i appreciate that— left and right always existed? i appreciate that brexit is ptototty— appreciate that brexit is probably driven a further wedge, but probably driven a further wedge, tut-ute— probably driven a further wedge, tut-tne non,— probably driven a further wedge, but-like how, from - probably driven a further wedge, but like how, from my but it's like how, from my ontnton— but it's like how, from my ogtnton ,— but it's like how, from my opinion , lots— but it's like how, from my opinion , lots of- but it's like how, from my opinion , lots of people were opinion, lots of people were toottng— opinion, lots of people were toottng ot— opinion, lots of people were looking at meijer and saying, vett— looking at meijer and saying, vet—o- looking at meijer and saying. well,_a position well, why are you in a position to comment— well, why are you in a position to comment anything ? i mean, to comment on anything? i mean, you-,_ to comment on anything? i mean, you-, me— to comment on anything? i mean, you , his premiership ended you know, his premiership ended in . you know, his premiership ended tn-. on— you know, his premiership ended tn-. on yeon. - you know, his premiership ended in-. oh, yeah. oh,- you know, his premiership ended in .oh, yeah. o" «to; in disaster. oh, yeah. oh, yes. i in disaster. oh, yeah. oh, yes. t tenement— in disaster. oh, yeah. oh, yes. i remember that because. yes, exactly. i lost my seat. yes, i remember all that . actually, i remember all that. actually, i don't entirely agree with you that it's been that

that it's always been like that in that i'm going back in the sense that i'm going back a long way now. i think in a long way now. but i think in this 60s, was this kind of 60s, there was everyone agreed about everyone was agreed about modernisation. everyone was agreed to agreed that the economy had to move infrastructure, agreed that the economy had to mo example, infrastructure, agreed that the economy had to mo example, was infrastructure, agreed that the economy had to mo example, was notastructure, for example, was not a controversial policy. but now anything is a controversial policy . you know, do you want to policy. you know, do you want to be more modern policy. you know, do you want to be more modem or not? no, be more modem or not? no, no, no, no, no . you know, no, we don't. no, no. you know, saving the environment is the most zero most important thing. net zero is important so is the most important thing. so we're even on we're not even agreed on economic anymore . and by economic growth anymore. and by the my programme , i'm the way, in my programme, i'm going about a new going to be talking about a new book which also suggests that a lot of foreign actors may be involved in all of this through trawling , through trawling, through disinformation. and so on. that's interesting, helping to nett— that's interesting, helping to beat tonn— that's interesting, helping to break down any— that's interesting, helping to break down any kind of national consensus on anything, helping to tne— consensus on anything, helping to remove the glue that holds our to remove the glue that holds eoetety— to remove the glue that holds our society together. although the our society together. although tne tony— our society together. although tne tony tony— our society together. although the tory party don't help themselves— the tory party don't help themselves .— the tory party don't help themselves. i- the tory party don't help themselves. i mean, if you the tory party don't help themselves . i mean, if you look themselves. i mean, if you look at tne— themselves. i mean, if you look at tne nont— themselves. i mean, if you look at the front of— themselves. i mean, if you look at the front of the _ themselves. i mean, if you look at the front of the observer, tt-e—toty- at the front of the observer,. it's—tory anarchy it's talking about tory anarchy ogotn. — it's talking about tory anarchy ogotn. -te— it's talking about tory anarchy again. is helpful? again. i mean, is it helpful? ttt— again. i mean, is it helpful? ttt-on— again. i mean, is it helpful? ttt-on tnot— again. i mean, is it helpful? i'll on that subject, i'll just on that subject, tetote— before we move to on labour tnetty— before we move to on labour tnetty-totet- before we move to on labour briefly-patel to- before we move to on labour briefly patel to be briefly for priti patel to be oteotttety— briefly for priti patel to be absolutely-into - briefly for priti patel to be absolutely into rishi absolutely laying into rishi senat— absolutely laying into rishi stnot ot— absolutely laying into rishi stnot at o— absolutely laying into rishi sunak at a time like this when tney-te— sunak at a time like this when

tney-telteoet— sunak at a time like this when they're least points they're at least 20 points tentnt— they're at least 20 points behind still— they're at least 20 points behind still 7— they're at least 20 points behind still ? well, i suppose my behind still? well, i suppose my answer to that— behind still? well, i suppose my answer to that is,— behind still? well, i suppose my answer to that is, you see, i nove— answer to that is, you see, i have some sympathy with what ene-e— have some sympathy with what ene-e eoytng— have some sympathy with what ene-e eoytng ot— have some sympathy with what she's saying at one's view of he— she's saying at one's view of tie te— she's saying at one's view of this is always— she's saying at one's view of this is always conditioned by vnetnet— this is always conditioned by vnetnet yon— this is always conditioned by whether you agree with the neon— whether you agree with the person or not. _ whether you agree with the person or not. but she's saying nee— person or not. but she's saying ne-e nonogtng— person or not. but she's saying he's managing decline and that's not teotty— he's managing decline and that's not teotty o— he's managing decline and that's not really a ringing endorsement non— not really a ringing endorsement tton eonetoty— not really a ringing endorsement from somebody who was home seetetoty. — from somebody who was home seetetoty. to,— from somebody who was home secretary. no, no,— from somebody who was home secretary. no, no, indeed . secretary. no, no, indeed. but of course, what— secretary. no, no, indeed. but of course, what what she believes and what in the believes and what many in the tory believe is that you tory party believe is that you have to offer some prospect of growth. idea growth. i mean, the idea of growth. i mean, the idea of growth , the idea of private growth, the idea of private enterprise, of business has sort of gone out of the conservative lexicon. yes. i mean, the only reason we see business and conservative party linked in newspaper stories at the moment is because so much of business is because so much of business is attacking the conservative government for being anti—business . i mean, what an anti—business. i mean, what an extraordinary situation that a hangover johnson hangover from boris johnson famously business is no , famously saying business is no, it's no. again, it's more than that. it's that you know, rishi and jeremy hunt have this fixation on that, you know,

deaung fixation on that, you know, dealing with dealing with the deficit is kind of the only thing . and if that means getting thing. and if that means getting rid of the, you know, the duty free concession that was so helpful to much of business, if that means putting up corporation to an absurd corporation tax to an absurd level, going to do it. level, they're going to do it. and naturally, business is not on their side. let's move on to tett— on their side. let's move on to tett ot— on their side. let's move on to tett ot tne— on their side. let's move on to leak of the day.— on their side. let's move on to leak of the day. there's- tit" ” t:ti; let's move on to leak of the day. there's been more information— leak of the day. there's been more information forthcoming otott— about labour's potential manifesto. _ about labour's potential manifesto. we already heard that tney— manifesto. we already heard that tney vent— manifesto. we already heard that tney vent to— manifesto. we already heard that they want to advocate working tton — they want to advocate working tton -tney— they want to advocate working from -they want- they want to advocate working from they want to scrap from home. they want to scrap the from home. they want to scrap tne-tntone— from home. they want to scrap the-unions act- from home. they want to scrap the-unions act ,- from home. they want to scrap the unions act, which will the trade unions act, which will tnot— the trade unions act, which will tnot tney— the trade unions act, which will mean that they more mean that they may be more ettttee— mean that they may be more strikes-they're- mean that they may be more strikes they're talking strikes acas they're talking about— strikes acas they're talking about-workers- strikes acas they're talking about workers more about giving workers more novete— about giving workers more novete-tne- about giving workers more- powers,-the-that powers, including the fact that tney— powers, including the fact that tney-totnt— powers, including the fact that they-roundltheir. they can turn round to their toeeee— they can turn round to their bosses-please- they can turn round to their bosses please don't they can turn round to their bossesor please don't they can turn round to their bossesor call please don't they can turn round to their bossesor call me)lease don't they can turn round to their bossesor call me aftere don't they can turn round to their bossesor call me after 530.'t they can turn round to their bossesor call me after 530. and email or call me after 530. and tnen— email or call me after 530. and tnen ve— email or call me after 530. and tnen ve oteo— email or call me after 530. and then we also hear— email or call me after 530. and then we also hear from the telegraph— then we also hear from the telegraph that— then we also hear from the telegraph that there's this enggeetton— telegraph that there's this suggestion that they want suggestion that they might want to-etttzene— suggestion that they might want to-citizens the- suggestion that they might want to citizens the vote to give eu citizens the vote otong— to give eu citizens the vote otong vttn— to give eu citizens the vote along with 16— to give eu citizens the vote along with 16 and i7 to give eu citizens the vote along with 16 and 17 year olds. tott— along with 16 and 17 year olds. tout teeoneen— along with 16 and 17 year olds. your response ,_ along with 16 and 17 year olds. your response , michael? �*ft�*tige your response, michael? well, i tntt— your response, michael? well, i can see that they think that it would be electorally advantageous to give the vote to people who have settled status in the united kingdom and who are paying tax. by the way, that's one of their precon additions. and of course to people of and

people between the age of 16 and 18, people are 18, because these people are more labour . and more likely to vote labour. and actually sympathetic actually i'm quite sympathetic on the eu point. i think people have settled status here. there's quite a good argument that should vote. i'm that they should vote. i'm i'm much that people much less convinced that people between 16 and 18 should have the but obviously labour between 16 and 18 should have the it but obviously labour between 16 and 18 should have the it is ut obviously labour between 16 and 18 should have the it is ofobviously labour between 16 and 18 should have the it is of advantage abour between 16 and 18 should have the it is of advantage .3our between 16 and 18 should have the it is of advantage . iiur thinks it is of advantage. i wonder, by the way, whether they've analysis. wonder, by the way, whether they've east analysis. wonder, by the way, whether they've east europeans.ysis. wonder, by the way, whether they've east europeans are ., lots of east europeans are highly conservative because because seen socialism because they've seen socialism close up in their own countries . so these , these ideas, i think . so these, these ideas, i think it's quite good to know how they'll play out . i think some they'll play out. i think some of them are giving a bit of ammunition to the conservatives . you know, when you just hear this policy, what eu citizens getting the vote, it sounds as though this is unpicking brexit and i think a lot of voters will be suspicious about that. and some voters will think that the idea that your boss should not be able to send you an email out of hours is extraordinary. i mean, a lot of people are quite unhappy by how disrupted work is already. yes. i mean, you do

take work home with you because of the advent of the mobile phone. however, when we're totttng — phone. however, when we're talking about— however, when we're talking about growing the eonoy— talking about growing the economy and— talking about growing the economy and some of these nottetee— economy and some of these pottetee eeen— economy and some of these policies seem a— economy and some of these policies seem a bit akin to sort of policies seem a bit akin to sort ot ttonee— policies seem a bit akin to sort ot ttonee ont— policies seem a bit akin to sort of france and look— policies seem a bit akin to sort of france and look what's nonenet— of france and look what's happened there. o" " happened there. oh, totally akin to france. is modelled to france. it is it is modelled on french policy. and you on a french policy. and you know, historically, certainly conservatives , sometimes even conservatives, sometimes even labour have said, oh, the last thing we want to do is what france does, because france has had very working week had a very short working week and all sorts restrictions on and all sorts of restrictions on work. and we've alleged that this has been a very thing this has been a very bad thing for the french. however, of course, british productivity is one of the lowest in the european union. i think here are measures. i suspect that will lower it still further . yes. lower it still further. yes. michael portillo, thank. michael portillo, thank you lower it still further. yes. - michael portillo, thank you very noon. — michael portillo, thank you very noon. wett— michael portillo, thank you very much. we'll see— michael portillo, thank you very much. we'll see you again at 11. tnont— much. we'll see you again at 11. tnont yon. — much. we'll see you again at 11. tnont yon. vee— much. we'll see you again at 11. thank you. yes now the people's nonet— thank you. yes now the people's nonet te— thank you. yes now the people's nonet te tn— thank you. yes now the people's panel is in hemel_ thank you. yes now the people's panel is in hemel hempstead, otong— panel is in hemel hempstead, otong vttn— panel is in hemel hempstead, along with our— panel is in hemel hempstead, along with our very own tom totvoot. — along with our very own tom totvoot. ton — along with our very own tom harwood. tom i'd— along with our very own tom harwood. tom i'd love to know teeotee— harwood. tom i'd love to know teeotee t— harwood. tom i'd love to know because i started— harwood. tom i'd love to know because i started out on the tenet— because i started out on the hemel hempstead gazette. so it's a hemel hempstead gazette. so it's otovn— hemel hempstead gazette. so it's otovn very— hemel hempstead gazette. so it's a town very close— hemel hempstead gazette. so it's a town very close to— hemel hempstead gazette. so it's a town very close to my heart. wnot— a town very close to my heart. wnot-goot— a town very close to my heart. what-good people- a town very close to my heart. what good people hemel what the good people of hemel note— what the good people of hemel note-tne—

what the good people of hemel make-the politics— what the good people of hemel make the politics of the week make of the politics of the week ont— make of the politics of the week ont vnot— make of the politics of the week and what questions they might make of the politics of the week and vfort questions they might make of the politics of the week and vfor ourestions they might make of the politics of the week and vfor our panellistsey might make of the politics of the week and vfor our panellists todayht have for our panellists today eonettettng— have for our panellists today considering-also- have for our panellists today- considering-also-grant considering we've also got grant stooge— considering we've also got granti snogge—nonent considering we've also got grant. snonge—nonent. shapps coming in just a moment. ton— shapps coming in just a moment. ton vee— shapps coming in just a moment. ton tee no— shapps coming in just a moment. ton tee no ,— shapps coming in just a moment. tom yes, no , really— shapps coming in just a moment. tom yes, no , really excited to tom yes, no, really excited to neon— tom yes, no, really excited to neot vnot— tom yes, no, really excited to hear what the _ tom yes, no, really excited to hear what the people of hemel tenneteot— hear what the people of hemel hempstead have— hear what the people of hemel hempstead have to say. o” hempstead have to say. of course, we're— hempstead have to say. of course, we're here- hempstead have to say. of course, we're here in- hempstead have to say. of course, we're here in marlo's cafe and restaurant, a brilliant cafe and restaurant, a brilliant cafe in the heart of the town , cafe in the heart of the town, and i'm delighted to be joined, first of all, by ila, the manager here, and ila, how's business going? we to love veteoe— business going? we to love git a] we to love welcome our fantastic customers nee,— welcome our fantastic customers gag, tnt— welcome our fantastic customers here, but unfortunately , due to here, but unfortunately, due to the here, but unfortunately, due to tne eoet— here, but unfortunately, due to tne eoet ot— here, but unfortunately, due to the cost of living— here, but unfortunately, due to the cost of living crisis, we nove— the cost of living crisis, we have noticed _ the cost of living crisis, we have noticed a— the cost of living crisis, we have noticed a drop off in our customer basis. _ have noticed a drop off in our customer basis. well, let's hope not— customer basis. well, let's hope to tntnge— customer basis. well, let's hope tnot tntnge go— customer basis. well, let's hope that things go from strength to etnengtn— that things go from strength to etnengtn ont— that things go from strength to strength and bounce back as nonetotty— strength and bounce back as hopefully inflation starts to on — hopefully inflation starts to on not— hopefully inflation starts to fall. but thank— hopefully inflation starts to fall. but thank you - hopefully inflation starts to fall. flat" hopefully inflation starts to fall. ti hopefully inflation starts to- fall. but thank you so much for your hospitality here and welcome us into the cafe. let's let's have a word now with our panel of brilliant contributors , gb news viewers to get a sense of what the people of hemel hempstead have to have to say. john, first of all, thanks for being with us. what's what's a big issue that exercises you at

the moment ? oh, well, i was the moment? oh, well, i was a enou— the moment? oh, well, i was a small business— the moment? oh, well, i was a small business owner- , oh, well, i was a small business owner and it eonetttont— small business owner and it consultant. i'm— small business owner and it consultant. i'm finding the etnent— consultant. i'm finding the etnent tox— consultant. i'm finding the current tax regime is very etottengtng— current tax regime is very challenging. the big increase in eonnonotton— challenging. the big increase in corporation tax— challenging. the big increase in corporation tax ,_ challenging. the big increase in corporation tax , which although corporation tax, which although neogte— corporation tax, which although some people think it's only paid by aoon— some people think it's only paid by aoo ono— some people think it's only paid by amazon and big companies, it's by amazon and big companies, tt-e oettotty— by amazon and big companies, it's actually paid— by amazon and big companies, it's actually paid by small eonnonteep — it's actually paid by small companies. one one man companies like companies. one one man companies ttte etne— companies. one one man companies ttte tnte— companies. one one man companies like mine. this cafe,— companies. one one man companies like mine. this cafe, the hairdresser— like mine. this cafe, the hairdresser down the street and not— hairdresser down the street and to t— hairdresser down the street and that it coupled— hairdresser down the street and that it coupled with an increase in that it coupled with an increase tn ttvtteno— that it coupled with an increase in dividend taxation which is non— in dividend taxation which is non enott— in dividend taxation which is how small business owners oettotty— how small business owners oetootty get— how small business owners actually get paid is really very etottengtng— actually get paid is really very challenging. and— actually get paid is really very challenging. and i'm sure it's going— challenging. and i'm sure it's gotng to— challenging. and i'm sure it's gotng to eotee— challenging. and i'm sure it's going to cause significant tnttotton— going to cause significant inflation in— going to cause significant inflation in and problems for ntgn— inflation in and problems for ntgn etteet— inflation in and problems for high street businesses, eeoeetotty— high street businesses, especially when rents and ttetneee— especially when rents and business rates— especially when rents and business rates are constantly going— business rates are constantly going up— business rates are constantly gotng no oe— business rates are constantly going up as well. 5g business rates are constantly going up as well. g ii going up as well. big concerns about the level of taxation. now, maude, what what are the issues that really at the forefront of your mind at the moment? tom it's my 19 year old. i moment? tom it's my 19 year old. t nove— moment? tom it's my 19 year old. t nove o— moment? tom it's my 19 year old. t nove o te— moment? tom it's my 19 year old. i have a 19 year old daughter, which is an adult female without male genitalia , and this will be

male genitalia, and this will be her first opportunity to vote in a general election to choose our next government. and my concerns are, where does she put her vote? it's precious . she studied vote? it's precious. she studied a—level politics, so she has this vote. but on the one side we have a gentleman who doesn't wear a seat belt, who stabs people in the back, who uses up nhs appointments when he can afford private and thinks that by giving his mother a couple of extra customer hours, that's going to solve the nhs problems and it won't. on the other side we have labour and i have one word tom zhao rac well on that note, let's move over to richard and richard. what are your big concerns with— and richard. what are your big concerns with regard- ft: m: what are your big concerns with regard to politics at concerns with regard to politics ot tne— concerns with regard to politics at the moment? _ concerns with regard to politics at the moment? it�*y�*biee concerns with regard to politics at the moment? flittiii concerns with regard to politics at the moment? �*ft�*ti;ii at the moment? well, we have a conservative government not acting like a conservative government. we have too much state control. and we also , as state control. and we also, as john said earlier on taxation , john said earlier on taxation, asian vat is too high. income tax is too high. inheritance tax is the most pointless and

bureaucratic tax i think they can possibly be. so i'm looking for a conservative government to be a conservative government and be a conservative government and be a conservative government and be a low taxation and low state economy. yeah, be a low taxation and low state economy . yeah, it seems like economy. yeah, it seems like tney-ne— economy. yeah, it seems like tneyte not— economy. yeah, it seems like they're not living— economy. yeah, it seems like they're not living up- i yeah, it seems like they're not living up to those nntnetgtee— they're not living up to those ontnetptee ot— they're not living up to those principles at the— they're not living up to those principles at the moment. we do nove— principles at the moment. we do nove, noeve— principles at the moment. we do have, however, today on the nnognonne— have, however, today on the gnognonne tne— have, however, today on the programme the energy secretary and programme the energy secretary ont tne— programme the energy secretary and the shadow— programme the energy secretary and the shadow business seeetony— and the shadow business secretary and— and the shadow business secretary and john, i wonder if you— secretary and john, i wonder if you not— secretary and john, i wonder if you not ony— secretary and john, i wonder if you had any questions specifically— you had any questions specifically for the energy seeetony— specifically for the energy seeetony 7— specifically for the energy secretary ? grant shapps yeah , secretary? grant shapps yeah, the secretary? grant shapps yeah, tne vnote— secretary? grant shapps yeah, the whole system of trying to get to — the whole system of trying to get to so—called_ the whole system of trying to get to so—called net zero and nenovtng— get to so—called net zero and removing hydro— get to so—called net zero and removing hydro carbon fuels from tott— removing hydro carbon fuels from both domestic— removing hydro carbon fuels from both domestic and— removing hydro carbon fuels from both domestic and transport teoge— both domestic and transport teoge te— both domestic and transport oeoge te gotng— both domestic and transport usage is going to require a etgnttteont— usage is going to require a significant amount of increase in significant amount of increase tn eteetttetty— significant amount of increase in electricity generation . \\�*fi]"tl in electricity generation. now, i in electricity generation. now, t teet— in electricity generation. now, t need to— in electricity generation. now, i used to work— in electricity generation. now, i used to work in— in electricity generation. now, i used to work in the- i used to work in the electricity supply industry, so ihave electricity supply industry, so i have some some insight, knowledge as it were. i would expect that we would need between 6 and 8 new full size nuclear power stations to generate the amount of power, the amount of energy that we are currently using from

hydrocarbons. but if we have that out and that's 30, 40, 50 years built and all the nimby problems, how do we get the power to people's houses ? do we power to people's houses? do we have the infrastructure? and the answer is no. the fuse on my incoming electricity supply is 60 amps. a full size central heating boiler would be 100 amps and so would a car charger. infrastructure is it's about getting that infrastructure built. now, just very quickly, teeotee— built. now, just very quickly, because we are— cg now, just very quickly, because we are running a bit out of because we are running a bit out ot tne.— because we are running a bit out ot ttne. monte,— because we are running a bit out of time. maude, what would you ttte— of time. maude, what would you tne-to— of time. maude, what would you ttte-to tne— of time. maude, what would you like to the politicians ? like to say to the politicians? i'd like to say to the politicians? to ute— like to say to the politicians? to ttte to— like to say to the politicians? i'd like to ask— like to say to the politicians? i'd like to ask grant- like to say to the politicians? i'd like to ask grant shapps, who excel who writes his excel spreadsheets. him is it spreadsheets. is it him or is it the elf on the shelf ? and the elf on the shelf? and richard, a final- the elf on the shelf? and richard, a final word- tit" , and richard, a final word to ti?" , and richard, a final word to you . richard, a final word to you. yest— richard, a final word to you. ven-geeky— richard, a final word to you. tee-gototty .— richard, a final word to you. yes,-quickly . i'm- richard, a final word to you. yes,-quickly . i'm an- yes, very quickly. i'm an electric car owner and coming back to john's point, electric car owner and coming back to john's point , the back to john's point, the infrastructure is very, very poor. infrastructure is very, very poor . so much so that i've poor. so much so that i've cancelled all my subscriptions to the public charging points. and i only at home and i only charge at home because cost of it is because the cost of it is just ridiculous . because the cost of it is just ridiculous. i do because the cost of it is just ridiculous . i do believe the ridiculous. i do believe the future of renewable energy should be hydrogen cars,

electric cars are a stopgap. but i do enjoy driving it. so some big questions there about infrastructure , but also infrastructure, but also a little question about for grant shapps, about the elf on the shelf. back to you. camilla tnont— shelf. back to you. camilla tnont yon— shelf. back to you. camilla tnont yon veny— back to you. camilla thank you very much for that. ton.— thank you very much for that. ton. t— thank you very much for that. ton. t ton-t— thank you very much for that. tom. i don't know— thank you very much for that. tom. i don't know whether- thank you very much for that. tom. i don't know whether i'm going to be able to sandwich the elf on the shelf in. by the way, can i just say i've had many a lovely full english at the marlowe's cafe in hemel hempstead. i do recommend it now. secretary now. grant shapps secretary of state security state for energy security and net me now. he's also net zero joins me now. he's also the mp for hatfield. the tory mp for welwyn hatfield. mr shapps, i hope you can hear me. lots of questions there from my people's panel about electric cars but start cars and so on. but let's start with net and also heat with net zero and also heat pumps. now minister, have you got heat on own got a heat pump on your own home? i'm having one fitted oettotty— home? i'm having one fitted oettotty ot— home? i'm having one fitted actually at the— , i'm having one fitted actually at the moment. ' t: actually at the moment. and to the toot— actually at the moment. and to the toot tent— actually at the moment. and to the last point or— actually at the moment. and to the last point or one of the points, one of the gentlemen was it costs about the same as having a boiler put in after the after you get a grant, there's a boiler upgrade grant. so a bit like boiler upgrade grant. so a bit ttte noppenet— boiler upgrade grant. so a bit like happened with— l. 3: again so a bit like happened with cars, l. g: g”in so a bit like happened with cars, with tve— like happened with cars, with tve vnen— like happened with cars, with evs when they— like happened with cars, with evs when they first started eontng— evs when they first started coming around— evs when they first started

coming around and that gets it to onont— coming around and that gets it to otont tne— coming around and that gets it to around the same price. so i'm totng— to around the same price. so i'm totng tt— to around the same price. so i'm totng tt to— to around the same price. so i'm totng tt to eon— to around the same price. so i'm doing it to sort of— to around the same price. so i'm doing it to sort of learn about all doing it to sort of learn about ott tne— doing it to sort of learn about all the complications. and one of all the complications. and one ot youn— all the complications. and one ot yoon goeete— all the complications. and one of your guests was just saying you— of your guests was just sayingi you—infrastructure you have to have infrastructure oggnotee— you have to have infrastructure ongnooee ,— you have to have infrastructure upgrades , including something upgrades, including something tnot-e— upgrades, including something that's - happened - upgrades, including something that's happened in my that's just happened in my gonoge,— that's just happened in my gonoge,-te- that's just happened in my garage, is upgrading the garage, which is upgrading the toe.— garage, which is upgrading the ttet tne— garage, which is upgrading the fuel. the-panel- garage, which is upgrading the fuel. the panel actually up fuel. the fuse panel actually up to eo— fuel. the fuse panel actually up to so one— fuel. the fuse panel actually up to so one vvoe— fuel. the fuse panel actually up to 80 amps was sufficient for tott— to 80 amps was sufficient for totn tne— to 80 amps was sufficient for both the heat— to 80 amps was sufficient for both the heat pump and an eteettte— both the heat pump and an electric car. _ both the heat pump and an electric car. so— both the heat pump and an electric car. so what's the ttnot— electric car. so what's the ttnot nn— electric car. so what's the final bill then?- electric car. so what's the final bill then? mr your goeetton— final bill then? mr your goeetton .— final bill then? mr your goeetton . t— final bill then? mr your question . i won't know that question. i won't know that gotte— question. i won't know that gotte yet— question. i won't know that quite yet because they're still totng— quite yet because they're still totng tne— quite yet because they're still doing the survey— quite yet because they're still doing the survey work , but i doing the survey work, but i expect— doing the survey work, but i expect tt— doing the survey work, but i expect it will— doing the survey work, but i expect it will be _ doing the survey work, but i expect it will be very but about tnee— expect it will be very but about he gono— expect it will be very but about three grand. so— expect it will be very but about three grand. so octopus say they to— three grand. so octopus say they to 2500— three grand. so octopus say they can do 2500 for— three grand. so octopus say they can do 2500 for a— three grand. so octopus say they can do 2500 for a standard totte— can do 2500 for a standard totten tn— can do 2500 for a standard totten tn o— can do 2500 for a standard boiler in a house. acas british eoe— boiler in a house. acas british eoe eoy— boiler in a house. acas british ooe eoy tney— boiler in a house. acas british gas say they can— boiler in a house. acas british gas say they can do about three gnont. — gas say they can do about three gnont. tt-e— gas say they can do about three gnono. tt-e veny— gas say they can do about three grand. it's very much similar to tttttng— grand. it's very much similar to tttttng o— grand. it's very much similar to fitting a replacement boiler vnen— fitting a replacement boiler vnen yon— fitting a replacement boiler vnen you get— fitting a replacement boiler when you get to those levels. nnt— when you get to those levels. not tnene — when you get to those levels. but there are— when you get to those levels. but there are a— when you get to those levels. but there are a few complications, including making tnot— complications, including making eetnotyott— complications, including making sure that your house is well enotgn— sure that your house is well enough insulated. so that's the ntoeee— enough insulated. so that's the toe tnot— enough insulated. so that's the process that i'm— enough insulated. so that's the process that i'm also having to go tnnotgn— process that i'm also having to go tnnoogn tne— process that i'm also having to go through the checks on because one— go through the checks on because cntte—o— go through the checks on because cntte—o tenott- go through the checks on because chris—a report on. chris skidmore did a report on tnte— chris skidmore did a report on he ont— chris skidmore did a report on he ont ne— chris skidmore did a report on this and he estimated concern tetottvety— this and he estimated concern relatively that— this and he estimated concern relatively that it— this and he estimated concern relatively that it would cost up to £6,000— relatively that it would cost up

to name ton— relatively that it would cost up to £6,000 for people to upgrade tnetn— to £6,000 for people to upgrade tnett nonee— to £6,000 for people to upgrade their homes to— to £6,000 for people to upgrade their homes to the— to £6,000 for people to upgrade their homes to the government's teeonnnentet— their homes to the government's recommended eco— their homes to the government's recommended eco standards. otvtooety— recommended eco standards. otvtooety .— recommended eco standards. obviously , you're— recommended eco standards. obviously , you're you're- recommended eco standards. obviously, you're you're a minister, you're well paid. so three grand is probably more affordable . if it's up to six affordable. if it's up to six grand. how on earth do you expect people on minimum wage to grand. how on earth do you expec'upzople on minimum wage to grand. how on earth do you expec'up with on minimum wage to grand. how on earth do you expec'up with this ninimum wage to grand. how on earth do you expec'up with this money? s0tge to come up with this money? so i think we're conflating - come up with this money? so i think we're conflating two- think we're conflating two ttttenent— think we're conflating two different things, confusing two tttteent— different things, confusing two different things— different things, confusing two different things there. one is vnot— different things there. one is vnot cnnte— different things there. one is what chris skidmore was talking otott— what chris skidmore was talking otott vvoe— what chris skidmore was talking about was how— what chris skidmore was talking about was how we— what chris skidmore was talking about was how we insulate homes in about was how we insulate homes tn otte— about was how we insulate homes tn one to— about was how we insulate homes tn one to note— about was how we insulate homes in order to make them viable for ten — in order to make them viable for ten tetng— in order to make them viable for them being able— in order to make them viable for them being able to— in order to make them viable for them being able to fit things ttte— them being able to fit things ttte neot— them being able to fit things like heat pumps. the other thing is like heat pumps. the other thing te tne— like heat pumps. the other thing te tne eoet— like heat pumps. the other thing te tne eoet ot— like heat pumps. the other thing is the cost of heat— like heat pumps. the other thing is the cost of heat pump. as i nenttonet,— is the cost of heat pump. as i mentioned, the— is the cost of heat pump. as i mentioned, the cost of the heat pump— mentioned, the cost of the heat punt—ttnel pump is now coming into line vttn— pump is now coming into line vttn-ot— pump is now coming into line with -of replacing- pump is now coming into line with of replacing your with the cost of replacing your note.— with the cost of replacing your tottet-getttng- with the cost of replacing your boiler. getting two boiler. so we're getting two veny— boiler. so we're getting two veny etnttot— boiler. so we're getting two very similar prices on the tnettotton— very similar prices on the insulation front. we've actually got toge— insulation front. we've actually got huge amounts— insulation front. we've actually got huge amounts of help coming in, nottteototty— got huge amounts of help coming in, particularly for— got huge amounts of help coming in, particularly for people on toven— in, particularly for people on lower incomes. _ in, particularly for people on lower incomes. so something like £12 lower incomes. so something like on ttttton— lower incomes. so something like £12 billion, over— lower incomes. so something like £12 billion, over £12— lower incomes. so something like £12 billion, over £12 billion announced and— £12 billion, over £12 billion announced and partly spent on on nottng— announced and partly spent on on nottng ee— announced and partly spent on on making sure those— announced and partly spent on on making sure those homes are nette— making sure those homes are better insulated. _ making sure those homes are better insulated. put that into ntnnetet— better insulated. put that into ntnneet tot— better insulated. put that into numbers for you. _ better insulated. put that into numbers for you. when we came to nove— numbers for you. when we came to novet ,— numbers for you. when we came to power , onty— numbers for you. when we came to power , onty onty— numbers for you. when we came to power , onty onty tn— numbers for you. when we came to power , only only 14, one 4% of power, only only 14, one 4% of none— power, only only 14, one 4% of

homes were sufficiently insulated.— homes were sufficiently insulated. now it's nearly 50% of insulated. now it's nearly 50% ot noee— insulated. now it's nearly 50% ot toe so— insulated. now it's nearly 50% of homes. so that— insulated. now it's nearly 50% of homes. so that money's been etent— of homes. so that money's been etent ont— of homes. so that money's been etent ont tt-e— of homes. so that money's been spent and it's working. but are you— spent and it's working. but are you eonetnet— spent and it's working. but are you concerned by— spent and it's working. but are you concerned by some concerns ttot— you concerned by some concerns ttot nove— you concerned by some concerns ttot tove teen— you concerned by some concerns that have been raised in the teet— that have been raised in the week ttot— that have been raised in the week that heat— that have been raised in the week that heat pumps won't heat teotte-e— week that heat pumps won't heat people's effectively as people's homes as effectively as gas people's homes as effectively as goe tottene— people's homes as effectively as goe tottete .— people's homes as effectively as gas boilers . well,— people's homes as effectively as gas boilers . well, i'm going to gas boilers. well, i'm going to tnt— gas boilers. well, i'm going to ttnt ott— gas boilers. well, i'm going to ttnt out tne— gas boilers. well, i'm going to find out the answer to that. we do find out the answer to that. we to otteoty— find out the answer to that. we do already know— find out the answer to that. we do already know that the heat pumps— do already know that the heat tonne nont— do already know that the heat tonte vont ot— do already know that the heat pumps work at a— do already know that the heat pumps work at a lower temperature,- pumps work at a lower temperature, but they stay for on tonget. — temperature, but they stay for on longer. that's— temperature, but they stay for on longer. that's the way that tney— on longer. that's the way that ttey oteote — on longer. that's the way that ttey oteote .— on longer. that's the way that they operate . but— on longer. that's the way that they operate . but it does mean they operate. but it does mean ttot— they operate. but it does mean ttot yoo— they operate. but it does mean ttot yoo to— they operate. but it does mean that you do need— they operate. but it does mean that you do need to make sure ttot— that you do need to make sure ttot tte— that you do need to make sure that the home— that you do need to make sure that the home is— that you do need to make sure that the home is reasonably well tneototet— that the home is reasonably well insulated. and— that the home is reasonably well insulated. and that's why we're totttng—ont- insulated. and that's why we'rei putting—and energy insulated. and that's why we're putt insulating and energy insulated. and that's why we're putt insulating homesind energy insulated. and that's why we're putt insulating homes andenergy into insulating homes and otvtooety— into insulating homes and obviously, it's— into insulating homes and obviously, it's better not obviously, it's much better not to-to. — obviously, it's much better not to-to. tte— obviously, it's much better not to-to. it's much- obviously, it's much better not to to. it's much better to to have to. it's much better to not— to have to. it's much better to not nove— to have to. it's much better to not tove to— to have to. it's much better to not have to produce more heat if you— not have to produce more heat if yoo-toet— not have to produce more heat if yoo-toet not— not have to produce more heat if yoo-toet not tet— not have to produce more heat if you-just not let the- not have to produce more heat if you just not let the heat you can just not let the heat ote— you can just not let the heat ote so— you can just not let the heat eeote so tt— you can just not let the heat escape. so it makes sense to do tneototton— escape. so it makes sense to do insulation-it's— escape. so it makes sense to do insulation.-it's not- insulation. but it's not straightforward. just insulation. but it's not straightforward. ijust to insulation. but it's not str.clearorward. ijust to insulation. but it's not str.clear .ward. ijust to insulation. but it's not str.clear . it'sd.ijust to insulation. but it's not str.clear . it's notjust to be clear. it's not straightforward. why straightforward. that's why i'm going— straightforward. that's why i'm gotng-tte— straightforward. that's why i'm going the process myself going through the process myself , teooee t— going through the process myself , because i wanted— going through the process myself , because i wanted to actually teotn— , because i wanted to actually teotn otoot— , because i wanted to actually learn about it.— , because i wanted to actually learn about it. we— , because i wanted to actually learn about it. we needed a new tottet— learn about it. we needed a new tote. t— learn about it. we needed a new boiler. i wanted— learn about it. we needed a new boiler. i wanted to— learn about it. we needed a new boiler. i wanted to learn about it boiler. i wanted to learn about tt ont— boiler. i wanted to learn about tt ont ott— boiler. i wanted to learn about it and all the— boiler. i wanted to learn about it and all the complications ttot— it and all the complications ttot to— it and all the complications that do arise.— it and all the complications that do arise. but we do know ttot— that do arise. but we do know ttotieon-t— that do arise. but we do know that-can't rely— that do arise. but we do know that can't rely from that we can't rely on gas from tottt— that we can't rely on gas from tottn ont— that we can't rely on gas from putin and elsewhere, so we do

teet— putin and elsewhere, so we do neet to— putin and elsewhere, so we do neet to move— putin and elsewhere, so we do need to move away and not just for need to move away and not just tot net— need to move away and not just tot net eno— need to move away and not just for net zero, but— need to move away and not just for net zero, but for— need to move away and not just for net zero, but for also our ovn—eeeonttyi for net zero, but for also our. own—eeeottty oe own energy, energy security as vett — own energy, energy security as vett con— own energy, energy security as well. can-move- own energy, energy security as well. can-move on- own energy, energy security as well. can-move on to. own energy, energy security as well. ct?" ti?" well. can we move on to the retained eu law bill? because there apparently there are sources apparently quoting your behalf in quoting you on your behalf in the papers saying that the weekend's papers saying that you was wrong for kemi you think it was wrong for kemi badenoch to have abandoned the scrapping 4000 you scrapping of 4000 eu laws. you apparently said that it was entirely achievable . so are you entirely achievable. so are you at odds now with your successor as business secretary no. you know , i'm as business secretary no. you know , tn oe— as business secretary no. you know , i'm sure this- as business secretary no. you know , i'm sure this has- i no. you know , i'm sure this has happened know, i'm sure this has happened to yoo. — know, i'm sure this has happened to yoo. voo— know, i'm sure this has happened to you. you know,— know, i'm sure this has happened to you. you know, when you open the to you. you know, when you open tte nevetotet— to you. you know, when you open the newspaper and— to you. you know, when you open the newspaper and you see eonetttng— the newspaper and you see something-you. the newspaper and you see- something-you know, something like what you know, vten—ny- something like what you know,. vten—ny eteet when did i say that? in my sleep or when did i say that? in my sleep on eonetttng— when did i say that? in my sleep or something.ithink_ when did i say that? in my sleep or something. think that's or something. i think that's tnototty— or something. i think that's probably-back. or something. i think that's probably back to probably just refers back to comments that— probably just refers back to comments that whilst i was toetneee— comments that whilst i was business _was. business secretary, i was tttetty— business secretary, i was tttetty tn— business secretary, i was briefly in charge of the legislation— briefly in charge of the- legislation _time time legislation and at the time time we not— legislation and at the time time we had legislation on track. we had the legislation on track. tottt— we had the legislation on track. vvtot tottenet— we had the legislation on track. what happened subsequently , of what happened subsequently, of course, was more— what happened subsequently, of course, was more of the bits of eu course, was more of the bits of to tow— course, was more of the bits of to tow vttct— course, was more of the bits of eu law which were— course, was more of the bits of eu law which were left over tnee— eu law which were left over ttee, eon— eu law which were left over there, sort of— eu law which were left over there, sort of literally uncovered— there, sort of literally uncovered by the, i think the tttet— uncovered by the, i think the british library— uncovered by the, i think the british library looking at laws of british library looking at laws ot toont— british library looking at laws of found additional pieces of, of found additional pieces of, ot ton— of found additional pieces of, ot tov atoo— of found additional pieces of, of law akua actually the toetneee— of law akua actually the business secretary of the conent— business secretary of the current business secretary is totng— current business secretary is totng o— current business secretary is doing a terrific— current business secretary is doing a terrific job already . i

doing a terrific job already. i tttnt— doing a terrific job already. i tttnt ttte— doing a terrific job already. i think this year— doing a terrific job already. i think this year will have to zooo— think this year will have to over 2000 of— think this year will have to over 2000 of those laws eeottet. — over 2000 of those laws scrapped. she's just announced eoo— scrapped. she's just announced ooo ot— scrapped. she's just announced ooo ot ttoee— scrapped. she's just announced 600 of those in— scrapped. she's just announced 600 of those in a— scrapped. she's just announced 600 of those in a in a piece of vnote— 600 of those in a in a piece of what's called— 600 of those in a in a piece of what's called secondary legislation,— what's called secondary legislation, which is put down in legislation, which is put down tn tte— legislation, which is put down tn tte tooee— legislation, which is put down in the house of— legislation, which is put down in the house of lords. so we're vett— in the house of lords. so we're vett on— in the house of lords. so we're vett on tte— in the house of lords. so we're well on the way— in the house of lords. so we're well on the way to— in the house of lords. so we're well on the way to it, and i'm not— well on the way to it, and i'm not neotty— well on the way to it, and i'm not really sure— well on the way to it, and i'm not really sure where these tneee— not really sure where these these stories— not really sure where these these stories from, these stories come from, but tte— these stories come from, but tt-eltnoten— these stories come from, but. it'slbroken_brexit, it's a broken promise on brexit, ten-t— it's a broken promise on brexit, tent to — it's a broken promise on brexit, tent to t— it's a broken promise on brexit, isn't it? i mean,— it's a broken promise on brexit, isn't it? " ”ti; it's a broken promise on brexit, isn't it? e"tiil”tiil isn't it? i mean, there's a lot of within the party. of dissent within the party. it's promise on brexit. it's a broken promise on brexit. you've also got priti patel talking rishi sunak talking about rishi sunak managing decline . once again, managing decline. once again, the tories are engulfed in psychodrama and infighting . psychodrama and infighting. well, first of all, we're the party— well, first of all, we're the tonty tnot— well, first of all, we're the party that got— well, first of all, we're the party that got brexit done. if you— party that got brexit done. if yoo oe— party that got brexit done. if you care about— party that got brexit done. if you care about that, then we are the you care about that, then we are tte teotte— you care about that, then we are tte teotte vno— you care about that, then we are the people who sorted it out. tneee— the people who sorted it out. tteee oe— the people who sorted it out. these are the— the people who sorted it out. these are the last few leftover ttte— these are the last few leftover ttte ot— these are the last few leftover ttte ot tov— these are the last few leftover bits of law that— these are the last few leftover bits of law that we're also eeotttng— bits of law that we're also eeotttng .— bits of law that we're also eeotttng . t— bits of law that we're also scrapping . i read in the scrapping. i read in the nevetotee— scrapping. i read in the newspapers today, by the way , newspapers today, by the way, tnot— newspapers today, by the way, that-starmer- newspapers today, by the way, that starmer wants to that sir keir starmer wants to eoten— that sir keir starmer wants to eoten tte— that sir keir starmer wants to reopen the brexit— that sir keir starmer wants to reopen the brexit settlement and net— reopen the brexit settlement and net totttng— reopen the brexit settlement and he's talking about— reopen the brexit settlement and he's talking about changing vottng— he's talking about changing vottng ntgtte— he's talking about changing voting rights for some citizens ont— voting rights for some citizens ont ott— voting rights for some citizens ont ott ttte— voting rights for some citizens and all this sort— voting rights for some citizens and all this sort of thing, vttet— and all this sort of thing, vttct te— and all this sort of thing, which is something which was octootty— which is something which was actually agreed— which is something which was actually agreed with the eu . so actually agreed with the eu. so he actually agreed with the eu. so te vonte— actually agreed with the eu. so te vonte to— actually agreed with the eu. so he wants to reopen brexit. i voottn-t— he wants to reopen brexit. i wouldn't-him - he wants to reopen brexit. i wouldn't-him on- he wants to reopen brexit. i wouldn't him on that. wouldn't trust him on that. but tott— wouldn't trust him on that. but toot to— wouldn't trust him on that. but toot to yoo,— wouldn't trust him on that. but back to you, patel's

back to you, priti patel's totete—.- back to you, priti patel'si patel's_. look, back to you, priti patel's. patel's_. look, i back to you, priti patel's- patel's_. look, i think patel's comments. look, i think ttte— patel's comments. look, i think ttte-ete— patel's comments. look, i think ttte-ete vte— patel's comments. look, i think this she was referring to this and she was referring to ttte— this and she was referring to this-elections- this and she was referring to this elections which were this set of elections which were otvtooety— this set of elections which were otvtooety veny— this set of elections which were obviously very difficult for the conservatives _ obviously very difficult for the conservatives .— obviously very difficult for the conservatives . there weren't a conservatives. there weren't a goot— conservatives. there weren't a gootiot— conservatives. there weren't a good .of elections- conservatives. there weren't a good of elections for us, good set of elections for us, tot— good set of elections for us, tot ttte— good set of elections for us, but this .the_ good set of elections for us, but this .the first- but this was the first ottontontty- but this was the first opportunity people have had to content— opportunity people have had to content-tte— opportunity people have had to comment the shenanigans comment on all the shenanigans of comment on all the shenanigans ot—ttoee- comment on all the shenanigans ot—ttoee nonyi of last summer and those many teotenettt— of last summer and those many leadership changes that went on. i leadership changes that went on. t tttnt— leadership changes that went on. ttttnt teotte— leadership changes that went on. i think people were venting ttetn— i think people were venting their frustration . an i actually their frustration. an i actually tttnt— their frustration. an i actually tent-tttett— their frustration. an i actually think rishi sunak , in his think that rishi sunak, in his five— think that rishi sunak, in his ttve-tton— think that rishi sunak, in his ttve-tton to— think that rishi sunak, in his five plan to halve five point plan to halve inflation— five point plan to halve inflation and- five point plan to halve inflation and grow the economy ont— inflation and grow the economy ont netoce— inflation and grow the economy and reduce our— inflation and grow the economy and reduce our debt and cut the tos— and reduce our debt and cut the tts vottng— and reduce our debt and cut the nhs waiting list— and reduce our debt and cut the nhs waiting list and stop the enou— nhs waiting list and stop the enott totte— nhs waiting list and stop the small boats, i— nhs waiting list and stop the small boats, i think he's doing evoety— small boats, i think he's doing evoety tte— small boats, i think he's doing exactly the right— small boats, i think he's doing exactly the right things. and tet-e— exactly the right things. and tet-e totge— exactly the right things. and let's judge him _ exactly the right things. and let's judge him against that. tet-e— let's judge him against that. tet-e totge— let's judge him against that. let's judge this— let's judge him against that. let's judge this government ogotnet— let's judge this government ogotnet-vten— let's judge this government against-when it- let's judge this government against when it comes to against that when it comes to tte— against that when it comes to the-election,— against that when it comes to the election, which is you the next election, which is you eoott—teenl could say that you've been totget— could say that you've been. judged—elections judged at the local elections ont— and been found wanting though. mr and been found wanting though. ttt stotte— and been found wanting though. ttt snotte on— and been found wanting though. ttt snotte on too.— and been found wanting though. mr shapps on tax, you— and been found wanting though. mr shapps on tax, you were a former business secretary there's lot of there's been a lot of complaints. daily mail complaints. the daily mail has run about run a campaign about the scrapping of this tax free status luxury goods . is this status for luxury goods. is this actually anti—government , actually an anti—government, anti—business government? and when it comes the autumn when it comes to the autumn statement , should taxes come statement, should taxes come down, your view ? i'm a

down, in your view? i'm a conservative. i'd- down, in your view? i'm a conservative. i'd love- : i . ’ i'm a conservative. i'd love to have tone— conservative. i'd love to have toven toe— conservative. i'd love to have lower taxes. i'm— conservative. i'd love to have lower taxes. i'm also a realist vno— lower taxes. i'm also a realist who understands— lower taxes. i'm also a realist who understands that we've been tttoogt— who understands that we've been tttoogt o— who understands that we've been tttoogt o oee— who understands that we've been through a once in— who understands that we've been through a once in a— who understands that we've been through a once in a 100 plus yeot— through a once in a 100 plus yeon too— through a once in a 100 plus year p&o which— through a once in a 100 plus year p&o which costs the country a year p&o which costs the country o tottone— year p&o which costs the country o tottone .— year p&o which costs the country a fortune , costs— year p&o which costs the country a fortune , costs the— year p&o which costs the country a fortune , costs the world a a fortune, costs the world a tontone. — a fortune, costs the world a tontone. ant — a fortune, costs the world a fortune. and then that's being tottovet— fortune. and then that's being tottovet tn— fortune. and then that's being followed in quick— fortune. and then that's being followed in quick succession by tottn-e— followed in quick succession by putin's illegal,— followed in quick succession by putin's illegal, ghastly war in teotte,— putin's illegal, ghastly war in ukraine, which— putin's illegal, ghastly war in ukraine, which again has cost tooeetotte— ukraine, which again has cost households a— ukraine, which again has cost households a fortune, not least in households a fortune, not least tn enetgy— households a fortune, not least tn enengy tneee— households a fortune, not least in energy prices. and we've been generous as a government in tnytng— generous as a government in ttytng to— generous as a government in ttytng to vnot— generous as a government in trying to wrap our arms around teotte,— trying to wrap our arms around teotte, tontoogt— trying to wrap our arms around people, furlough schemes, things like people, furlough schemes, things ttte toytng— people, furlough schemes, things like paying around half of the tytteot— like paying around half of the tytteot enetgy— like paying around half of the typical energy bill this winter , ttoogt— typical energy bill this winter , ttoogt tt— typical energy bill this winter , though it won't— typical energy bill this winter , though it won't have felt like tnot— , though it won't have felt like that because— , though it won't have felt like that because the— , though it won't have felt like that because the price rises etttt— that because the price rises were still much— that because the price rises were still much higher. but if were still much higher. but if v-etone— were still much higher. but if v-etone ott- were still much higher. but if we-done all of- were still much higher. but if we done all of that, we'd we hadn't done all of that, we'd be we hadn't done all of that, we'd te tn— we hadn't done all of that, we'd te tn ttootte. — we hadn't done all of that, we'd be in trouble. all— we hadn't done all of that, we'd be in trouble. all of— we hadn't done all of that, we'd be in trouble. all of that means we be in trouble. all of that means ve-tn— be in trouble. all of that means ve-tn o— be in trouble. all of that means we-in a situation— be in trouble. all of that means we in a situation where our we are in a situation where our tett— we are in a situation where our tett te— we are in a situation where our tett te otoot— we are in a situation where our debt is about the— we are in a situation where our debt is about the same size as our annual sort— debt is about the same size as our annual sort of— debt is about the same size as our annual sort of economy. so tooee— our annual sort of economy. so gooey. ot— our annual sort of economy. so gooey. ot eon— our annual sort of economy. so 100% of gdp, nearly 100. and as a conservative,— 100% of gdp, nearly 100. and as a conservative, i— 100% of gdp, nearly 100. and as a conservative, i also don't tetteve— a conservative, i also don't tetteve on— a conservative, i also don't believe on passing that debt on to totone— believe on passing that debt on to future generations, right? so ttene-e— to future generations, right? so ttete-e got— to future generations, right? so ttete-e got to— to future generations, right? so there's got to be— to future generations, right? so there's got to be a— to future generations, right? so there's got to be a time for tax eote. — there's got to be a time for tax eote. t—

there's got to be a time for tax cuts. i believe— there's got to be a time for tax cuts. i believe in— there's got to be a time for tax cuts. i believe in them passionately- cuts. i believe in them passionately ,- cuts. i believe in them passionately , but the chancellor passionately, but the chancellor has passionately, but the chancellor toe to— passionately, but the chancellor toe to note— passionately, but the chancellor has to make sure— passionately, but the chancellor has to make sure that we've got the confidence _ has to make sure that we've got the confidence of— has to make sure that we've got the confidence of markets, that got— the confidence of markets, that got o— the confidence of markets, that we've got a proper— the confidence of markets, that we've got a proper plan in tnee— we've got a proper plan in ttoee, o— we've got a proper plan in ttoee, o tong— we've got a proper plan in place, a long term plan in tnee— place, a long term plan in ttoee, ont— place, a long term plan in place, and that's what he's totng— place, and that's what he's totng .— place, and that's what he's totng . so— place, and that's what he's totng . so yoo— place, and that's what he's doing . so you ask me about any doing. so you ask me about any eteettte— doing. so you ask me about any eteettte tox— doing. so you ask me about any eteettte tov .— doing. so you ask me about any specific tax , including that, specific tax, including that, tnot— specific tax, including that, ttot-ttot- specific tax, including that, that-that you're. that that tax, that you're tetenttng — that that tax, that you're referring to _ that that tax, that you're referring to for tourists . referring to for tourists. aetootty— referring to for tourists. actually, the - referring to for tourists. actually, the chancellor's got to-ttot— actually, the chancellor's got to-ttot oot- actually, the chancellor's got to -that out with - to balance that out with making eote-tnteeet— to balance that out with making sure-interest rates- sure that our interest rates remain lower— sure that our interest rates remain lower they sure that our interest rates remain lower-they be remain lower than they would be if remain lower than they would be tt-etent— remain lower than they would be tt-etent tte— remain lower than they would be if spent the money. ii” if we just spent the money. mr stone.— if we just spent the money. mr stone-yoo— if we just spent the money. mr stone-yoo vety- if we just spent the money. mr. shapps,-you very -for shapps, thank you very much for joining this morning. perhaps joining us this morning. perhaps you'll heat you'll let us know how your heat pump installation goes in future. now, yes. future. thank you. now, oh, yes. and the way, the answer is and by the way, the answer is tte— and by the way, the answer is tte et— and by the way, the answer is tte ettltte— and by the way, the answer is the elf the spreadsheets. and by the way, the answer is the the spreadsheets. and by the way, the answer is the ts spreadsheets. and by the way, the answer is the t ti?" readsheets. and by the way, the answer is the t ti?" citiisheets. oh, the elf is on the spreadsheets. good to i'll spreadsheets. good to know. i'll let over hemel let maude know over in hemel hempstead. you. lots more hempstead. thank you. lots more to come on the show today. i'll be to labour's jonathan be speaking to labour's jonathan reynolds. be speaking to labour's jonathan rethe.ds. be speaking to labour's jonathan rethe liberal democrat mp to the liberal democrat mp christine jardine and australia's former high commissioner to the uk will be telling me how his country managed stop small boat managed to stop small boat crossings. anywhere .

well . well. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now, in just a tnoto— tominey show. now, in just a mine, tn— tominey show. now, in just a minute, i'm going— tominey show. now, in just a minute, i'm going to- "can now, in just a minute, i'm going to be speaking to totoot-e— minute, i'm going to be speaking to labour's shadow— minute, i'm going to be speaking to labour's shadow business seetetony,— to labour's shadow business secretary, jonathan reynolds . secretary, jonathan reynolds. tot— secretary, jonathan reynolds. not tttet, — secretary, jonathan reynolds. but first, -the - secretary, jonathan reynolds. but first, the news but first, here's the news teotttnee— but first, here's the news headlines with- but first, here's the news headlines with rory smith . thank

headlines with rory smith. thank you headlines with rory smith. thank yoo veny— headlines with rory smith. thank yoo veny toen— headlines with rory smith. thank you very much, camilla. the tttett— you very much, camilla. the toteet tton — you very much, camilla. the latest from the— you very much, camilla. the latest from the gb news room. nurses are calling for a double digit pay offer to prevent further strike action ahead of the royal college of nursing. pat cullen cullen told the sunday times the government risks another six months of industrial action if negotiations aren't reopened. members rejected a 5% offer, which was accepted by 14 other unions . a new ballot for strikes unions. a new ballot for strikes will be held later this month with leave appeals being seen as the big winner after hosting the eurovision song contest . but eurovision song contest. but with the prime minister saying the city has done the uk and ukraine pride. swedish pop star loreen made history , becoming loreen made history, becoming the first woman to win the event twice. the country now ties with ireland for the most song contest victories, both claiming seven titles. the uk's entry mae muller finished second last

behind germany. she may have been disappointed , but her fans been disappointed, but her fans certainly weren't . she did a certainly weren't. she did a brilliant job and she's represented the uk . so, so, so, represented the uk. so, so, so, so well. she was so, so, so, so well. she was amazing. she did so well. she was amazing. she ttt tte— so well. she was amazing. she ttt tte ot— so well. she was amazing. she did the uk proud. ji; " ain’t so well. she was amazing. she did the uk proud. ji; " ding did the uk proud. definitely no number one. but i think we did well. amazing top five, top five performance easily . she's our performance easily. she's our winner . well, as the song winner. well, as the song contest was underway , russian contest was underway, russian missiles hit the hometown of the ukrainian entry. ternopil was etnoet— ukrainian entry. ternopil was etnoet oe— ukrainian entry. ternopil was etnoet oe tot— ukrainian entry. ternopil was struck as pop group- i ternopil was struck as pop group dvorsky tentotnet— struck as pop group dvorsky performed in— struck as pop group dvorsky performed in liverpool. meanwhile, _ performed in liverpool. meanwhile, ukraine's president, vototynyt— meanwhile, ukraine's president, volodymyr zelenskyy is in genoty— volodymyr zelenskyy is in germany meeting with president ttont—vtottet— germany meeting with president frank—walter steinmeier. he's tottng— frank—walter steinmeier. he's tottng to— frank—walter steinmeier. he's hoping to acquire— frank—walter steinmeier. he's hoping to acquire more support not— hoping to acquire more support tton one— hoping to acquire more support tton ot— hoping to acquire more support from one of his— hoping to acquire more support from one of his key allies ogotnet— from one of his key allies against russia's invasion of his eoontty— against russia's invasion of his eoontty .— against russia's invasion of his eoontty . te— against russia's invasion of his country . he labour says it has country. he labour says it has ttone— country. he labour says it has ttone to— country. he labour says it has plans to create— country. he labour says it has plans to create 80,000 new jobs in plans to create 80,000 new jobs tn tte— plans to create 80,000 new jobs tn tte eot— plans to create 80,000 new jobs in the car industry— plans to create 80,000 new jobs in the car industry .— plans to create 80,000 new jobs in the car industry . the party in the car industry. the party eoye— in the car industry. the party eoye tt— in the car industry. the party eoye tt vit— in the car industry. the party says it will part— in the car industry. the party says it will part finance eight toetontee— says it will part finance eight factories to— says it will part finance eight

factories to achieve their goal. it factories to achieve their goal. tt vit— factories to achieve their goal. tt vttt oteo — factories to achieve their goal. it will also help— factories to achieve their goal. it will also help power nearly 2 ntttton— it will also help power nearly 2 million electric— it will also help power nearly 2 million electric vehicles as vett— million electric vehicles as vett otte— million electric vehicles as well under the— million electric vehicles as well under the proposed plan, the well under the proposed plan, tte neet— well under the proposed plan, the west midlands will benefit tton— the west midlands will benefit tton 28,000— the west midlands will benefit from 28,000 jobs— the west midlands will benefit from 28,000 jobs and the nontt—veet— from 28,000 jobs and the north—west from 11,000. a truce tetveen— north—west from 11,000. a truce between israel— north—west from 11,000. a truce between israel and— north—west from 11,000. a truce between israel and the militant and between israel and the militant ont tetonte— between israel and the militant and islamic jihad— between israel and the militant and islamic jihad group is in ttoee— and islamic jihad group is in ttoee. ttgtttng— and islamic jihad group is in place. fighting continued for a eootte— place. fighting continued for a eootte ot— place. fighting continued for a couple of hours— place. fighting continued for a couple of hours after the ogneenent— couple of hours after the agreement with israel's titty,— agreement with israel's military, saying it hit targets in military, saying it hit targets tn neeoneet— military, saying it hit targets in response to— military, saying it hit targets in response to rocket fire. it's totet— in response to rocket fire. it's totet tte— in response to rocket fire. it's hoped the truce— in response to rocket fire. it's hoped the truce will end the totet— hoped the truce will end the worst episode— hoped the truce will end the worst episode of— hoped the truce will end the worst episode of the cross tottet— worst episode of the cross border fire _ worst episode of the cross border fire since a ten day . war border fire since a ten day. war in border fire since a ten day. war tn zozt— border fire since a ten day. war tn zozt tottey— border fire since a ten day. war in 2021. turkey is— border fire since a ten day. war in 2021. turkey is bracing tteett— in 2021. turkey is bracing tteett tot— in 2021. turkey is bracing itself for possible protests or etoetee— itself for possible protests or etoetee oe— itself for possible protests or clashes as voting opens for the tneettenttot— clashes as voting opens for the presidential election. people tte — presidential election. people across the country , including across the country, including tneettent— across the country, including president erdogan, are heading to totttng— president erdogan, are heading to polling stations in the first toont— to polling stations in the first toont ot— to polling stations in the first toont ot tte— to polling stations in the first round of the elections . the round of the elections. the tneettent— round of the elections. the president faces— round of the elections. the president faces the biggest totttteot— president faces the biggest political challenge of his career, hoping- political challenge of his career, hoping for re—election otte— career, hoping for re—election ottet zo— career, hoping for re—election after 20 years— career, hoping for re—election after 20 years in— career, hoping for re—election after 20 years in power. opinion totte— after 20 years in power. opinion totte etov—

after 20 years in power. opinion totte etov tt— after 20 years in power. opinion polls show it will— after 20 years in power. opinion polls show it will be tight, ttoogt,— polls show it will be tight, ttoogt, vttt— polls show it will be tight, though, with a— polls show it will be tight, though, with a clear indication of though, with a clear indication ot tte— though, with a clear indication of the result— though, with a clear indication of the result expected this eventng — of the result expected this eventng .— of the result expected this eventng . tt— of the result expected this evening . tv online dab+ radio evening. tv online dab+ radio ont— evening. tv online dab+ radio ont on— evening. tv online dab+ radio ont on tone— evening. tv online dab+ radio and on tune in.— evening. tv online dab+ radio and on tune in. this is gb news. now:— and on tune in. this is gb news. nov, ttoogt,— and on tune in. this is gb news. now, though, back— and on tune in. this is gb news. now, though, back to . now, though, back to. camilla ivteteone— now, though, back to. camilla iwelcome back— now, though, back to. camilla l welcome back to - now, though, back to. camilla . welcome back to the- now, though, back to. camilla. - welcome back to the camilla now, though, back to. camilla. - welcome thow) the camilla now, though, back to. camilla welcome bonowy the delighted now, though, back to. camilla be elcome bonowy the delighted now, though, back to. camilla be joinede bonowy the delighted now, though, back to. camilla be joined by now the delighted now, though, back to. camilla be joined by jonathandelighted to be joined by jonathan reynolds, who's business reynolds, who's shadow business secretary reynolds, hope secretary mr reynolds, i hope you me. you've come out you can hear me. you've come out with announcement today with an announcement today. you want jobs in the want to boost jobs in the automotive sector. you want nearly 2 million more electric vehicles . that's obviously great vehicles. that's obviously great news. but at the same time, i'm confused. if there are more electric vehicles on the streets , it means air quality will , it means the air quality will improve . so why the labour improve. so why is the labour mayor, sadiq khan , proceeding mayor, sadiq khan, proceeding with is so with this ulez that is so unpopular the people of unpopular with the people of greater london? good morning,

sir. there's some noise here. i eoottn-t— sir. there's some noise here. i eoottn-t gotte— sir. there's some noise here. i couldn't quite hear— ” there's some noise here. i couldn't quite hear that, but i tttnt— couldn't quite hear that, but i tttnt yoo— couldn't quite hear that, but i think you were— couldn't quite hear that, but i think you were asking about the tototontty— think you were asking about the tototontty ot— think you were asking about the popularity of electric vehicles. yest _ popularity of electric vehicles. tee ttey-te— popularity of electric vehicles. vee, ttey-ne veny— popularity of electric vehicles. yes, they're very popular. most of yes, they're very popular. most ot-ttgteet— yes, they're very popular. most of-highest level,- yes, they're very popular. most of-highest level, i- yes, they're very popular. most of highest level, i think of of the highest level, i think of eteettte— of the highest level, i think of electric vehicle— of the highest level, i think of electric vehicle registrations vete—eotee- electric vehicle registrations were—sales lastj were made in the sales last yeon.— were made in the sales last yeon-ttte— were made in the sales last year.-this policy- were made in the sales last year. this policy is about year. but this policy is about tottng—tteni year. but this policy is about. making—them in year. but this policy is about- making_them in the making sure we make them in the uk making sure we make them in the ot-ttot— making sure we make them in the uk that fundamentally uk and that is fundamentally tntontont— uk and that is fundamentally important. battery , important. without a battery, tntoetny— important. without a battery, tntoetny vit— important. without a battery, industry will not— important. without a battery, industry will not continue with our-automotive- our existing automotive sector. ant—te— our existing automotive sector. ant—te o— our existing automotive sector. and—is a massive. and for us this is a massive ottontontty— and for us this is a massive opportunity the— and for us this is a massive opportunity. the government is nteetng— opportunity. the government is nteetng ont— opportunity. the government is missing and that's why we want the missing and that's why we want tte—etnotegyl the kind of industrial strategy, tntoetntot— the kind of industrial strategy, industrial-that- the kind of industrial strategy, industrial that we see the kind of industrial strategy, iniotheril that we see the kind of industrial strategy, iniother countries. that we see the kind of industrial strategy, iniother countries. but we see the kind of industrial strategy, iniother countries. but we don't in other countries. but we don't tee— in other countries. but we don't tete to— in other countries. but we don't see here to make— in other countries. but we don't see here to make sure we've got a see here to make sure we've got —oeeeton not i a future for this sector. but mr— a future for this sector. but mr reynolds— a future for this sector. but mr reynolds i'm- a future for this sector. but mr reynolds i'm also. a future for this sector. but mr reynolds i'm also asking about the unpopularity of ulez. that's mayoral policy that's a labour mayoral policy in why if you're in london. why why if you're improving air quality with more electric cars, do you need the ulez , which only penalises ulez, which only penalises people who are working shifts who have to drive around white vans are therefore probably vans and are therefore probably in a lower socioeconomic group ? in a lower socioeconomic group? well, the ulez policy is a policy for the mayor. he's responsible for— policy for the mayor. he's responsible for clean - ti he's responsible for clean air, local oottottttee— responsible for clean air, local authorities and— responsible for clean air, local authorities and combined authorities— authorities and combined authorities can be sued if the

air authorities can be sued if the otn goottty— authorities can be sued if the air quality isn't— authorities can be sued if the air quality isn't sufficient. ant— air quality isn't sufficient. ant tott— air quality isn't sufficient. ant tott ot— air quality isn't sufficient. and part of having directly eteetet— and part of having directly elected mayors— and part of having directly elected mayors is so they can etont— elected mayors is so they can etont ont— elected mayors is so they can stand and fall— elected mayors is so they can stand and fall by— elected mayors is so they can stand and fall by the policies ttey-ne— stand and fall by the policies ttey-ne totttng— stand and fall by the policies they're putting forward . but i they're putting forward. but i tttnt— they're putting forward. but i think cleaner— they're putting forward. but i think cleaner air— they're putting forward. but i think cleaner air is an eeeenttot— think cleaner air is an essential health issue. in the gt,— essential health issue. in the ttt-age..— essential health issue. in the ttt-gee. tte— essential health issue. in the uk, seen the government uk, we've seen the government nontote— uk, we've seen the government mandate local— uk, we've seen the government mandate local areas to it and mandate local areas to do it and it's mandate local areas to do it and tt-e got— mandate local areas to do it and it's got-understand- mandate local areas to do it and it's got understand if it it's got to understand if it tote— it's got to understand if it puts-mandate- it's got to understand if it puts mandate in place, puts that mandate in place, toeot— puts that mandate in place, toeot oeoe— puts that mandate in place, local areas respond local areas will respond to tettven— local areas will respond to deliver-there. local areas will respond to deliver-there isi local areas will respond to. deliver-there is the deliver that. and there is the air deliver that. and there is the ott te— deliver that. and there is the air is cleaner— deliver that. and there is the air is cleaner transition, the eteettte— air is cleaner transition, the electric vehicles— air is cleaner transition, the electric vehicles are cleaner , electric vehicles are cleaner, eteotty. — electric vehicles are cleaner, eteotty. .tt— electric vehicles are cleaner, clearly. .if air- electric vehicles are cleaner, clearly. .if air is- electric vehicles are cleaner, clearly. �*" ” i clearly. but if air is cleaner there need a ulez . there because you need a ulez. well, because there are lots of issues relating _ well, because there are lots of issues relating to— well, because there are lots of issues relating to heavier vettetee— issues relating to heavier vehicles and— issues relating to heavier vehicles and how they're used, vtee— vehicles and how they're used, where electric— vehicles and how they're used, where electric vehicles will not be where electric vehicles will not te tte — where electric vehicles will not be the answer— where electric vehicles will not be the answer to— where electric vehicles will not be the answer to that. there's a neet— be the answer to that. there's a neet to— be the answer to that. there's a neet to note— be the answer to that. there's a need to make that— be the answer to that. there's a need to make that transition to tytnogen— need to make that transition to tytnogen ont— need to make that transition to hydrogen and fuel cells, and ttte— hydrogen and fuel cells, and ttte te— hydrogen and fuel cells, and ttte te ott— hydrogen and fuel cells, and this is all part— hydrogen and fuel cells, and this is all part of the process. not— this is all part of the process. not yoo— this is all part of the process. but you incentives place but you need incentives in place to to— but you need incentives in place to to tnot— but you need incentives in place to do that. and— but you need incentives in place to do that. and i— but you need incentives in place to do that. and i believe that is to do that. and i believe that te vnot— to do that. and i believe that te vtot tte— to do that. and i believe that is what the policy of the london totoot— is what the policy of the london totoot-ont— is what the policy of the london labour- and the— is what the policy of the london labour and the mayor is in labour party and the mayor is in ttoee— labour party and the mayor is in ttoee-ant— labour party and the mayor is in ttoee-ant t— labour party and the mayor is in place-and i think- labour party and the mayor is in place and i think that place for that. and i think that the-benefits— place for that. and i think that the-benefits from - place for that. and i think that the benefits from clean the health benefits from clean air the health benefits from clean ttt-veny— the health benefits from clean ott-vety vett— the health benefits from clean air very well understood air are very well understood and i_wny_ air are very well understood and t—vtylvonte- air are very well understood and t—vtylvonte tol i understand why he wants to ttonote— i understand why he wants to promote those— i understand why he wants to promote those in— i understand why he wants to promote those in the area he's eteetet— promote those in the area he's. eteetet—ttee. elected and responsible for erg. the elected and responsible for erg. tte—nove— the conservatives have identified having 90 identified labour having 90 billion spending billion in uncosted spending commitments. going commitments. how are you going to these policies ?

to pay for these policies? well, that's nonsense. the conservative— well, that's nonsense. the conservative party itself, it's on record on the— conservative party itself, it's on record on the economy. it's so on record on the economy. it's eo ttte— on record on the economy. it's eo ttte. vte— on record on the economy. it's eo ttte. tte eee— on record on the economy. it's so dire. we see these kind of ottegottone— so dire. we see these kind of allegations now— so dire. we see these kind of allegations now and again where tot— allegations now and again where we've put forward _ allegations now and again where we've put forward revenue we've put forward any revenue etenttng—vel we've put forward any revenue. etenttng—ve vont spending increases that we want to-vttt— spending increases that we want to-vttt tte— spending increases that we want to -with the health. to make. so with the health eenvtee— to make. so with the health eenvtee-te— to make. so with the health service is funded by service that is funded by eenotttng— service that is funded by eenotttng tte— service that is funded by scrapping the non—dom rule, the tax scrapping the non—dom rule, the tot—tte— scrapping the non—dom rule, the tot—tte eotet- tax regime for the super rich, tton— tax regime for the super rich, our plan breakfast clubs is our plan for breakfast clubs is tottet— our plan for breakfast clubs is tontetltte— our plan for breakfast clubs is funded the change taxation funded by the change in taxation tegtne— funded by the change in taxation negtne toeen-t— funded by the change in taxation regime doesn't make billion regime doesn't make 90 billion in regime doesn't make 90 billion tn-ot— regime doesn't make 90 billion tn-ot .— regime doesn't make 90 billion tn-ot . to— regime doesn't make 90 billion tn-ot . to tot— regime doesn't make 90 billion in-uk . no but it- regime doesn't make 90 billion in uk . no but it doesn't add in the uk. no but it doesn't add up in the uk. no but it doesn't add ot to— in the uk. no but it doesn't add ot to to— in the uk. no but it doesn't add up to 90 billion— in the uk. no but it doesn't add up to 90 billion because that's too— up to 90 billion because that's tov noet— up to 90 billion because that's how much does— up to 90 billion because that's how much does it— up to 90 billion because that's how much does it add up in their researchers trying— how much does it add up in their researchers trying to make up ttgotee— researchers trying to make up ttgotee .— researchers trying to make up some figures . any spending some figures. any spending ttetgee— some figures. any spending ttetgee tnot— some figures. any spending pledges that we've are pledges that we've made are tontet— pledges that we've made are funded specifically from the revenue we would raise. so when yoove— revenue we would raise. so when yoo-ve—totteyl you've got that health policy, yoove— you've got that health policy, you've-non—dom- you've got that health policy, you've non—dom policy you've got the non—dom policy tnot— you've got the non—dom policy ttot-toy— you've got the non—dom policy ttot-toy tot— you've got the non—dom policy that-pay for that,- you've got the non—dom policy that pay for that, where that would pay for that, where yoove— that would pay for that, where yoove got— that would pay for that, where you've got commitments to tneottoet— you've got commitments to. breakfast—funded breakfast clubs, they're funded by breakfast clubs, they're funded ty—tntvotel by the changes to the private eetoot— by the changes to the private school _there - by the changes to the private l school _there - be school education, there will be neeoeet— school education, there will be increased spending school education, there will be increa a d spending school education, there will be increa a labour spending school education, there will be increa a labour government. ng school education, there will be increa a labour government. that under a labour government. that is under a labour government. that te to— under a labour government. that te to tevenoge— under a labour government. that is to leverage in— under a labour government. that is to leverage in the greater tttvote— is to leverage in the greater private investment that we need teeooee— because we cannot continue with an because we cannot continue with on-vttt— because we cannot continue with on-vttt tte — because we cannot continue with an _with the lowest - an economy with the lowest toetneee—tn- an economy with the lowest. business—in-g7 business investment in the g7 vtene— business investment in the g7 vtene-toven- business investment in the g7 where-lower than. business investment in the g7 where lower than it where growth is lower than it etoott— where growth is lower than it etoott-tven— where growth is lower than it should-even by- where growth is lower than it should even by historical should be. even by historical etontonte— should be. even by historical standards-uk.- should be. even by historical standards uk. and should be. even by historical standards-uk. and is standards in the uk. and that is part— standards in the uk. and that is ton-tottey. — standards in the uk. and that is ton-tottey. tot— standards in the uk. and that is ton-tottey. not t- standards in the uk. and that is part policy. but i reject part of our policy. but i reject

entttety— part of our policy. but i reject entirely conservative claim entirely the conservative claim tnot— entirely the conservative claim tot-note— entirely the conservative claim that make spending. if it that we make on spending. if it ten-t— that we make on spending. if it ten-tittttton— that we make on spending. if it isn't billion commitments, isn't 90 billion commitments, ttot-e—eoee. - isn't 90 billion commitments,i that's—case. okay. that's just not the case. okay. vtot-e— that's just not the case. okay. vttot-e-ttgote— that's just not the case. okay. what's figure then, if it what's the figure then, if it isn't i don't recognise that isn't 90? i don't recognise that ttgote— isn't 90? i don't recognise that ttgote ot— isn't 90? i don't recognise that ttgone ot ott— isn't 90? i don't recognise that ttgone ot ott. — isn't 90? i don't recognise that figure at all. what— isn't 90? i don't recognise that figure at all. what is- e 907 i don't recognise that figure at all. �*ft�*itie figure at all. what is the figure at all. what is the figure there are no uncosted spending there how much spending there are no. how much are spend? in are you planning to spend? in how public money you how much public money are you planning some of planning to spend on some of these pledges? if it's not 90 billion and that is billion and that figure is wrong, give me the wrong, can you give me the headune wrong, can you give me the headline please? okay, headline figure, please? okay, so the scrapping the non—dom tax regime raises no, i'm regime raises 3.2. no, i'm talking labour spending talking about labour spending pledges expand nhs pledges to expand the nhs workforce. yes, pledges to expand the nhs workforce . yes, i'm talking workforce. yes, i'm talking otoot— workforce. yes, i'm talking otoot-eoet— workforce. yes, i'm talking about-cost of- ”ti.ti; yes, i'm talking about cost of labour's about the cost of labour's etenttng— about the cost of labour's spending pledges. the aggregate etenttng— spending pledges. the aggregate spending—telling. spending pledges. i'm telling you spending pledges. i'm telling yoo ntee— spending pledges. i'm telling you where there— spending pledges. i'm telling you where there are specific increases in public service revenue spending. we always say ntee— revenue spending. we always say vtee tnot— revenue spending. we always say where that money— revenue spending. we always say where that money would come from and where that money would come from ttt-te— where that money would come from ont-te t— where that money would come from ont-te t eon— where that money would come from ont-te t gtve— where that money would come from and-is, i can give you- and that is, i can give you eteetttee— and that is, i can give you specifics-each- and that is, i can give you specifics each of those specifics for each of those and i specifics for each of those and t-entttety— i reject entirely the conservative i reject entirely the - conservative _they i reject entirely the conservative _they out conservative lines. they put out tnot— conservative lines. they put out ttot tnee— conservative lines. they put out that there are _ conservative lines. they put out that there are any— conservative lines. they put out that there are any uncosted etenttng—ti that there are any uncosted. etenttng—t get that there are any uncosted- etenttng—t get tt. spending commitments. i get it. teote— spending commitments. i get it. too-to rejecting— spending commitments. i get it. you're rejecting 90— spending commitments. i get it. you're rejecting 90 billion, but you the total cost of you must know the total cost of everything you've to everything you've pledged to spend. headline spend. what's that headline figure? not 90 billion , figure? if it's not 90 billion, i don't have the aggregate figure for all of our pledges.

i can tell you where each etenttng— i can tell you where each spending commitment comes from vten— spending commitment comes from vten ve— spending commitment comes from vten we note— spending commitment comes from vten we note tt— spending commitment comes from when we make it, but i think vtot— when we make it, but i think vtot ve— when we make it, but i think vtot ve eee— when we make it, but i think what we see from the conservative - what we see from the conservative party on this is ttontty— conservative party on this is frankly embarrassment at their eont— frankly embarrassment at their man—tte. frankly embarrassment at their. record,_the liz record, embarrassment at the liz ttoee— record, embarrassment at the liz ttoee-tte— record, embarrassment at the liz truss-the kwasi- record, embarrassment at the liz truss the kwasi kwarteng truss year of the kwasi kwarteng era truss year of the kwasi kwarteng eo-enoetet— truss year of the kwasi kwarteng era crashed economy and era that crashed the economy and tneee— era that crashed the economy and tteee-ot— era that crashed the economy and these-of-claims.- these sort of absurd claims. thty— these sort of absurd claims. ttey-tottet— these sort of absurd claims.i they .forward-any they put forward without any toete— they put forward without any toete tot— they put forward without any basis for them.— they put forward without any basis for them. they're basis for them. if they're tottng— basis for them. if they're making-claim,- basis for them. if they're making claim, they should making that claim, they should be making that claim, they should te-tot— making that claim, they should te-tot-vtene- making that claim, they should be put where they've be able to put out where they've tttet— be able to put out where they've ottet tnot— be able to put out where they've ottet ttot ot— be able to put out where they've added that up to— be able to put out where they've added that up to and they can't do added that up to and they can't to—ttey- added that up to and they can't to—ttey tnov- do that because they know ttey-ne— do that because they know ttey-te—tot they're frankly covering for themselves— they're frankly covering for themselves awful they're frankly covering for- themselves-awful record themselves and the awful record ttey-ve— themselves and the awful record ttey-ve-voo— themselves and the awful record they've _you - argue, i themselves and the awful record. they've _you - argue, mr they've got. you could argue, mr reynold, should be able reynold, that you should be able to up how much all of your to add up how much all of your spending pledges cost. but spending pledges have cost. but anyway, to the anyway, let's move on to the leaked manifesto. so you leaked labour manifesto. so you want people working from want more people working from home. scrap the home. you want to scrap the trade of 2016, which trade union act of 2016, which presumably strikes. presumably means more strikes. you to review fox hunting you want to review fox hunting and about an orgreave and talk about an orgreave inquiry. does orgreave a inquiry. does orgreave come up a lot on the doorstep ? yes those lot on the doorstep? yes those are all things. but first of alb— are all things. but first of ott tet— are all things. but first of ott tet ne— are all things. but first of all, let me say— are all things. but first of all, let me say this- tit”ti; gs but first of all, let me say this is not the totoot— all, let me say this is not the labour manifesto.— all, let me say this is not the labour manifesto. this is our toeeee— labour manifesto. this is our toeee ty— labour manifesto. this is our process by which _ labour manifesto. this is our process by which we get to the totoot— process by which we get to the labour manifesto.— process by which we get to the labour manifesto. it's a process why— labour manifesto. it's a process vty teotte— labour manifesto. it's a process why people submit the bits of tottey—

why people submit the bits of tottey tnot— why people submit the bits of policy that they're interested in. policy that they're interested tn. ttene-e— policy that they're interested tn. ttene-e o— policy that they're interested in. there's a process, there are onnentente— amendments, there's deliberation. not deliberation. so these are not etotenente— deliberation. so these are not statements policy. statements of party policy. i tttnt— statements of party policy. i tttnt-vont— statements of party policy. i think-want to- statements of party policy. i think want to see the kind think we do want to see the kind of think we do want to see the kind ot—tove— think we do want to see the kind ot—tove tnot- think we do want to see the kind of_laws that will. think we do want to see the kind of family laws that will think we do want to see the kind of family life,vs that will think we do want to see the kind of family life, give at will think we do want to see the kind of family life, give people protect family life, give people some _order to - protect family life, give people some _order to do - protect family life, give people some order to do the some time in order to do the ottet— some time in order to do the ottet tntnge— some time in order to do the other things-are- some time in order to do the other things are important other things that are important in other things that are important tn ttte— other things that are important tn ttte oe— other things that are important in life as well— other things that are important in life as well as— other things that are important in life as well as work. i think ttot-e— in life as well as work. i think ttot-e teen— in life as well as work. i think that's been eroded very significantly— that's been eroded very- significantly _years. significantly in recent years. i tttnt— significantly in recent years. i think—market- significantly in recent years. i think market itself think the labour market itselfi means that more people want ttextttttty— means that more people want flexibility workplace, flexibility in the workplace, tot— flexibility in the workplace,| but—confident flexibility in the workplace,- but_confident in but i'm absolutely confident in the but i'm absolutely confident in tte-ttottotn- but i'm absolutely confident in the platform we'll put the aggregate platform we'll put totvont— the aggregate platform we'll put tonvott te— the aggregate platform we'll put tonvott te tte— the aggregate platform we'll put forward is the one— the aggregate platform we'll put forward is the one that will gtve— forward is the one that will gtve teotte— forward is the one that will give people and optimism give people hope and optimism and give people hope and optimism ttt-ttte— give people hope and optimism and-this country- give people hope and optimism and this country around. and turn this country around. atten— and turn this country around. attenlyeone— and turn this country around. after years conservative after 13 years of conservative goventnent — after 13 years of conservative . government. _reynolds, after 13 years of conservative - government. _reynolds, do government. so, mr reynolds, do you colleague you agree with your colleague angela that angela rayner then that employees shouldn't receive calls or emails outside of working hours ? in what way is working hours? in what way is that going to help the economy to grow if people can't be contacted after five? well this is this is a response we've seen in lots of countries to how technology has changed the way we work. i mean, france, italy, ttetgee,— we work. i mean, france, italy, netgton, stotn— we work. i mean, france, italy, belgium, spain have- i mean, france, italy, belgium, spain have laws that are belgium, spain have laws that ott— belgium, spain have laws that ott tn— belgium, spain have laws that are all in this— belgium, spain have laws that are all in this area. as i say, ttte— are all in this area. as i say, ttte te— are all in this area. as i say, ttte te not— are all in this area. as i say, ttte te not o— are all in this area. as i say, this is not a definitive statement— this is not a definitive statement of- this is not a definitive statement of party policy. but ogotn— statement of party policy. but ogotn tte— statement of party policy. but again, it's things— statement of party policy. but again, it's things that we are toottng— again, it's things that we are. looking—consider looking at that we will consider to-eone—

looking at that we will consider to-eote tte— looking at that we will consider to sure the balance is to make sure the balance is ttgtt— to make sure the balance is ttgtt-t— to make sure the balance is right.-i think- to make sure the balance is right. i think everybody right. and i think everybody eeognteee— right. and i think everybody recognises that— right. and i think everybody recognises that there has to be a recognises that there has to be o-tetveen— recognises that there has to be a between working life, a balance between working life, tontty— a balance between working life, tontty tne,— a balance between working life, family life, the - a balance between working life, family life, the things family life, the other things tnot— family life, the other things that-important,- family life, the other things that important, the best that are important, the best enttoyene— that are important, the best employers recognise that employers already recognise that and employers already recognise that ttt-toot— employers already recognise that ont-toot ot— employers already recognise that and-look at the— employers already recognise that and look at the best and we'll look at the best ottnooet— and we'll look at the best. ottnooet—ttot and we'll look at the best- approach_that is approach to make sure that is the approach to make sure that is tte-so— approach to make sure that is tte-so tte— approach to make sure that is the-so it's an- approach to make sure that is the so it's an important the case. so it's an important to— the case. so it's an important area to consider. _ the case. so it's an important area to consider. this is area to consider. but this is not— area to consider. but this is notlstatement_ area to consider. but this is notlstatement of- area to consider. but this is not statement of manifesto. not a statement of manifesto. ttte— not a statement of manifesto. tttelo— not a statement of manifesto. tttelo teot— not a statement of manifesto. this.a leak from - not a statement of manifesto. this a leak from the this is a leak from the deliberations- this is a leak from the deliberations that we will have tnot— deliberations that we will have that-ultimately— deliberations that we will have that ultimately that that will ultimately get to that nontteeto — that will ultimately get to that manifesto _will- that will ultimately get to that manifesto will decide manifesto where we will decide the manifesto where we will decide tte-tonvott - manifesto where we will decide tte-tonvott. - manifesto where we will decide the _forward . so - manifesto where we will decide the forward . the right way forward. so the eteete— the right way forward. so the streets. paris— the right way forward. so the streets paris have been on streets of paris have been on fire and france has been plagued by protest votes for recent months. and the labour party thinks that france a good thinks that france is a good model to follow. no, we're not toottng— model to follow. no, we're not toottng ot— model to follow. no, we're not looking at when— : no, we're not looking at when people look at tnttvttoot— looking at when people look at individual countries, whether it's individual countries, whether tt-estngotone— individual countries, whether it's singapore or— individual countries, whether it's singapore or germany or none— it's singapore or germany or tnonee ont— it's singapore or germany or france, and say,— it's singapore or germany or france, and say, we just take tnot— france, and say, we just take ttot tottey— france, and say, we just take that policy position and totttteot— that policy position and political culture from that eoontty— political culture from that eoontty ont— political culture from that country and transport it here, ttot-e— country and transport it here, ttot-e not— country and transport it here, that's not how— country and transport it here, that's not how politics works. tot— that's not how politics works. not tnee— that's not how politics works. but there are— that's not how politics works. but there are ideas from other eoonttee— but there are ideas from other countries. you— but there are ideas from other countries. you should always be toottng— countries. you should always be looking-working- countries. you should always be looking working best. looking at what's working best. i looking at what's working best. t—te— looking at what's working best. t—te tont- looking at what's working best. i_be frank, the- looking at what's working best. i_be frank, the uk. i mean, let's be frank, the uk is i mean, let's be frank, the uk te-tettotntng- i mean, let's be frank, the uk is performing major is the worst performing major economy,.there_ is the worst performing major economy, there will ideas economy, so there will be ideas tton— economy, so there will be ideas from-countries,- economy, so there will be ideas from countries, other from other countries, other ottnooetee— approaches that is worth considering. _ approaches that is worth considering. .i- approaches that is worth

considering. i think approaches that is worth considering.-i think it considering. but i think when it comes fundamentally need comes to fundamentally the need toltttnge— comes to fundamentally the need to things differently to how to do things differently to how ttey-ve— to do things differently to how ttey-ve teen— to do things differently to how they've been _the - to do things differently to how they've been the last they've been going for the last 13 they've been going for the last to yeo— they've been going for the last to ye ttot— they've been going for the last 13 years, that case— they've been going for the last 13 years, that case strongly 13 years, that case is strongly evttent— 13 years, that case is strongly evident where _ 13 years, that case is strongly evident where that's the kind of tntoetntot— evident where that's the kind of industrial policy— evident where that's the kind of industrial policy want to put industrial policy i want to put tonvott— industrial policy i want to put tonvottltte— industrial policy i want to put forward-the kind- industrial policy i want to put forward the kind of forward or the kind of employment that forward or the kind of employment-that get employment rights that will get that employment rights that will get ttot totonee— employment rights that will get that balance between life that balance between family life and that balance between family life ttt—tn— that balance between family life ont—tn-ttgtt- and work right in the right ttoee—ttotel place. making our trade ogneenent— place. making our trade - agreement-european agreement with the european otton— agreement with the european union _there's. agreement with the european. union _there's lots union work better. there's lots of union work better. there's lots ot oeoe— union work better. there's lots of areas-need— union work better. there's lots of areas-need to- union work better. there's lots of areas need to look at and of areas we need to look at and vett— of areas we need to look at and vet toot— of areas we need to look at and vet toot ot— of areas we need to look at and we'll look at the— of areas we need to look at and we'll look at the best practise ont— we'll look at the best practise ont tte— we'll look at the best practise ont tte teet— we'll look at the best practise and the best-do- we'll look at the best practise and the best do that. and and the best way to do that. and ttot-e—tte- that's ultimately what the totoot— that's ultimately what the labour-will- that's ultimately what the labour-will so if labour manifesto will be. so if yote— labour manifesto will be. so if you're happy— labour manifesto will be. so if you're happy with— labour manifesto will be. so if you're happy with half civil you're happy with half of civil servants home and servants working from home and you advocate working you want to advocate working from home, what are you going to do with of the very do with all of the very expensive office space in central gordon brown central london that gordon brown moved at moved the civil service into at great the taxpayer ? great expense to the taxpayer? well, look, the people who try and posit this conversation postpone pandemic as some sort of approach between everyone working and nobody working from home and nobody working from home and nobody working from home and nobody working from home, i think just aren't how the economy aren't aware of how the economy has developed. now, for most vontttoee— has developed. now, for most workplace owners,— 3: now, for most workplace owners, they need a eonnnneetot— workplace owners, they need a commercial hq— workplace owners, they need a commercial hq .— workplace owners, they need a commercial hq . they will need commercial hq. they will need a teee,— commercial hq. they will need a ttoee, vtetten— commercial hq. they will need a place, whether that's a civil eenvtee— place, whether that's a civil eenvtee-noton- place, whether that's a civil service major corporate, service or a major corporate, vtee— service or a major corporate,i service or a major corporate,- vteeeoe— tn. where the workforce can come in.

ttene-e— where the workforce can come in. ttene-eltott— where the workforce can come in. ttete-eltott ot— where the workforce can come in. there'slpart of any— where the workforce can come in. there's part of any job which there's a part of any job which i there's a part of any job which t tttnt— there's a part of any job which t tttnt te— there's a part of any job which i think is learning— there's a part of any job which i think is learning from other eotteogoee— i think is learning from other colleagues especially. i mean, i o tnotnee— colleagues especially. i mean, i was a trainee much of was a trainee solicitor. much of ttot— was a trainee solicitor. much of ttot-vte— was a trainee solicitor. much of that-was learning- was a trainee solicitor. much of that was learning from your that job was learning from your eotteogoee. — colleagues. so there's also a neet— colleagues. so there's also a neet-none— colleagues. so there's also a need more processing side need for more processing side of any need for more processing side of ony-vtene— need for more processing side of ony-vtee yoo— need for more processing side of ony-vtee yoo eon- need for more processing side of any where you can have any role where you can have a bit any role where you can have a ttt ot— any role where you can have a bit of flexibility,— any role where you can have a bit of flexibility, where you ottnooet— bit of flexibility, where you can approach it— bit of flexibility, where you can approach it in that way. so i can approach it in that way. so t-tttnt— can approach it in that way. so t-tttnt-tong- i don't think the long term ttot-eetone— i don't think the long term projections of— i don't think the long term projections of the office, the toe— projections of the office, the tax-commercial. tax base, the commercial property—got] tax base, the commercial- property_gbtt where property that we've got, where ttot-e— property that we've got, where ttot-e-etvtt- property that we've got, where that's - civil service i that's where the civil service are-businesses- that's where the civil service are businesses will decline are for businesses will decline etgnttteontty. — significantly. but i do think tte— significantly. but i do think tte-vit— significantly. but i do think the will change significantly. but i do think- the _will change because the balance will change because ttot-e— the balance will change because that's—workers- the balance will change because that's workers want the balance will change because that that's workers want the balance will change because that that's what workers want the balance will change because that that's what the orkers want the balance will change because that that's what the labourivant and that's what the labour tottet— and that's what the labour market actually delivering in market is actually delivering in nony— market is actually delivering in tony-tte— market is actually delivering in many the moment the many ways at the moment is the etvtt— many ways at the moment is the etvtt-votttng— many ways at the moment is the civil-working-from l civil service working well from tonee — civil service working well from tonee -yoo— civil service working well from home? _you applied- civil service working well from home? : home? have you applied for a passport lately? i, like most mps, passport lately? i, like most ttte tnot— passport lately? i, like most mps, know that— passport lately? i, like most mps, know that the - 7’ i, like most mps, know that the best way to get o— mps, know that the best way to get o toeetont,— mps, know that the best way to get a passport, the only way in nony— get a passport, the only way in tony-tn— get a passport, the only way in tony-tntoet- get a passport, the only way in many-in-last few- get a passport, the only way in many in last few years many cases in the last few years toe— many cases in the last few years toe teen— many cases in the last few years has been-actually— many cases in the last few years has been actually contact has been to actually contact yoot— has been to actually contact yoot-tt— has been to actually contact yoot-tt. tot- has been to actually contact yoot-tt. not t- has been to actually contact your it. but i don't your mp to do it. but i don't but— your mp to do it. but i don't tot tte— your mp to do it. but i don't put the blame— your mp to do it. but i don't put the blame civil servants put the blame on civil servants for put the blame on civil servants tot ttot. — put the blame on civil servants tot ttot. t— put the blame on civil servants for that. i don't— put the blame on civil servants for that. i don't know the govennent— for that. i don't know the government because there is no totte— government because there is no tottte-tn— government because there is no tottte-tn ttte— government because there is no public in this country public service in this country ttot-e— public service in this country that's-better- public service in this country that's better after 13 that's working better after 13 yeote— that's working better after 13 years conservative government that's working better after 13 yeari conservative government that's working better after 13 yeari think�*iservative government that's working better after 13 yeari think trying:ive government that's working better after 13 yeari think trying:iveblameiment that's working better after 13 yeari think trying:ive blame the nt and i think trying to blame the etvtt— and i think trying to blame the etvtt-oe— and i think trying to blame the etvtt-oe tte— and i think trying to blame the civil as the government civil service as the government tnee— civil service as the government tttee-veot— civil service as the government tttee-veot ont- civil service as the government tries weak and lacks tries to do is weak and lacks accountability. _ tries to do is weak and lacks accountability. �*" tries to do is weak and lacks acct�*ttt�*tst e g ity. �*" tries to do is weak and lacks accanti e g �*" tries to do is weak and lacks accaanti e g ti:t“g �*" tries to do is weak and lacks accaanti e “g ti“g tries to do is weak and lacks accawaiting too long for theirile are waiting too long for their passports. advocating are waiting too long for their passthey. advocating are waiting too long for their

passthey. theiriating are waiting too long for their passthey. their mpig are waiting too long for their passthey. their mp . most that they contact their mp. most people are waiting 8 to 10 weeks for a passport, myself included . should be getting our mps . we should be getting our mps involved track involved to fast track passports. why can't the passport office handle passport processing ? many people need to processing? many people need to contact their mps when a public service isn't working well, and thatis service isn't working well, and that is certainly my experience of the last few years. i've had to do quite of the last few years. i've had to to gotte o— of the last few years. i've had to do quite a lot— of the last few years. i've had to do quite a lot of— i've had to do quite a lot of passport cases when this— to do quite a lot of passport cases when this has come up, but you— cases when this has come up, but yoo etoottn-t— cases when this has come up, but you shouldn't be— cases when this has come up, but you shouldn't be doing that, etoott— you shouldn't be doing that, etoott yooe— you shouldn't be doing that, should you? ministers are accountable— should you? ministers are accountable way they should you? ministers are accountable .way they way accountable the way they the way ttey— accountable the way they the way tteylont — accountable the way they the way tteylont-etvtt- they try and blame civil eenvonte— they try and blame civil servants, whether they try and blame civil- servants, whether-frankly servants, whether that's frankly in servants, whether that's frankly tn-ot— servants, whether that's frankly tn-ot totte- servants, whether that's frankly in of public policy, servants, whether that's frankly in need of public policy, servants, whether that's frankly in need tof public policy, servants, whether that's frankly in need to acceptc policy, servants, whether that's frankly in need to accept some:y, they need to accept some responsibility. _ they need to accept some responsibility. in responsibility. they've been in tone— responsibility. they've been in tone-yeote.— responsibility. they've been in power-years. this- responsibility. they've been in power years. this is this power for 13 years. this is this is power for 13 years. this is this te tte— power for 13 years. this is this is the platform _ power for 13 years. this is this is the platform that they have ttonotet— is the platform that they have ttonotet ont— is the platform that they have promoted and delivered and ttontng— promoted and delivered andi blaming—which blaming other people, which seems real feature of seems to be a real feature of ttte— seems to be a real feature ofi ttt—toete this government, i think lacks responsibility— this government, i think lacks responsibilityifor_ this government, i think lacks responsibility for decisions accountability for the decisions ttey-ve— accountability for the decisions ttey-ve-att— accountability for the decisions they've _all right. - accountability for the decisions they've-all right. i. accountability for the decisions. they've-all right. i shall they've made. all right. i shall be call to mp after be making a call to my mp after this. try and get my passport. thank you very much. jonathan reynolds. joined in the reynolds. now i'm joined in the studio by australian high studio by former australian high commissioner to the uk and former attorney former australian attorney general george brandis. now george you. good george lovely to see you. good morning. you very much for

morning. thank you very much for coming in. let's know you were coming in. let's i know you were heavily involved as attorney general the stop general with the plan to stop the australia . tell me the boats in australia. tell me how that worked and what the government needs to do to make their own policy work on this. george well, there are a number of measures were put in place by the government under the australian government under the australian government under the prime the leadership of then prime minister abbott, which minister abbott, of which offshore processing, which i know the united kingdom is having debate about at the having a big debate about at the moment, was element out of moment, was a key element out of that suite of policy is. but basically camilla,- that suite of policy is. but basically camilla, it- basically camilla, it also took a basically camilla, it also took o tot— basically camilla, it also took o tot ot— basically camilla, it also took a lot of political— basically camilla, it also took a lot of political will. i in tonton— a lot of political will. i in tonton tn— a lot of political will. i in london in the— a lot of political will. i in london in the last couple of teete— london in the last couple of veete tve— london in the last couple of weeks i've followed this debate ont— weeks i've followed this debate ont tt— weeks i've followed this debate ont tt te— weeks i've followed this debate ont tt te eo— weeks i've followed this debate and it is so reminiscent of the tetote— and it is so reminiscent of the tetote ttot— and it is so reminiscent of the debate that we— and it is so reminiscent of the debate that we had in australia in debate that we had in australia tn zet— debate that we had in australia tn zeto ont— debate that we had in australia in 2013 and 2014.— debate that we had in australia in 2013 and 2014. but that tetote— in 2013 and 2014. but that debate dried— in 2013 and 2014. but that debate dried up when the boats etottet.— debate dried up when the boats etottet. vee— debate dried up when the boats stopped. yes. and— debate dried up when the boats stopped. yes. and the boats did etot— stopped. yes. and the boats did stopt tot— stopped. yes. and the boats did stop, but there _ stopped. yes. and the boats did stop, but there was heavy ottoettton— stop, but there was heavy ottoettton. — stop, but there was heavy opposition . i- stop, but there was heavy opposition . a“ stop, but there was heavy- opposition . i mean, i was going opposition. i mean, i was going to ask you about what you made of the archbishop of canterbury talking about the rwanda plan, saying that it's immoral. presumably australia also had

opposition the opposition from churches. the left and everybody. you went left and everybody. but you went ahead it nonetheless. and ahead with it nonetheless. and the policy was so : e and the policy was so successful , the policy was so successful, all the policy was so successful, ott ttot— the policy was so successful, ott ttot tte— the policy was so successful, all that the labour party, which woe-tte— all that the labour party, which was the opposition was was then the opposition was etonet— was then the opposition was shamed-doing- was then the opposition was shamed - doing a - was then the opposition was shamed doing a u—turn and shamed into doing a u—turn and ototttng— shamed into doing a u—turn and ototttng tt— shamed into doing a u—turn and ototttng tt eo— shamed into doing a u—turn and adopting it so that— shamed into doing a u—turn and adopting it so that it is now tte— adopting it so that it is now the bipartisan— adopting it so that it is now the bipartisan policy of australian— the bipartisan policy of australian governments, both ettee— australian governments, both ettee ot— australian governments, both sides of australian politics. tow— sides of australian politics. tov oe— sides of australian politics. tov oe to— sides of australian politics. now as to the _ sides of australian politics. now as to the archbishop of contentony— now as to the archbishop of contentony .— now as to the archbishop of canterbury , who is of course canterbury, who is of course a goot— canterbury, who is of course a goot ont— canterbury, who is of course a goot ont o— canterbury, who is of course a good and a good— canterbury, who is of course a good and a good man , i do think good and a good man, i do think it's good and a good man, i do think tt-e vvtee— good and a good man, i do think tt-e ttot— good and a good man, i do think it's wise that senior— good and a good man, i do think it's wise that senior clergymen etoy— it's wise that senior clergymen etoy oot— it's wise that senior clergymen etoy oot ot— it's wise that senior clergymen stay out of politics, frankly, yes— stay out of politics, frankly, yee . — stay out of politics, frankly, yee . tev— stay out of politics, frankly, yes . now looking- stay out of politics, frankly, yes . \tti:tant “g stay out of politics, frankly,- yes . now looking at the policy yes. now looking at the policy itself as it is today, i mean , itself as it is today, i mean, do you support the rwanda policy in principle? do you think it's a good idea? well i don't have enough granular knowledge of it to say that without any hesitation. but to say that without any hesitation . but what i do hesitation. but what i do eotton,— hesitation. but what i do support, because- citeitta“ but what i do support, because it was eoeeeeetot— support, because it was successful in- support, because it was successful in australia, is the tntnettte— successful in australia, is the tntnettte ot— successful in australia, is the principle of offshore processing, - principle of offshore processing, because when eonetoty— processing, because when somebody comes to a country etotntng— somebody comes to a country etotntng to— somebody comes to a country claiming to be— somebody comes to a country claiming to be a— somebody comes to a country claiming to be a refugee, the otttgotton— claiming to be a refugee, the obligation of— claiming to be a refugee, the obligation of that company of ttot— obligation of that company of ttot eoontty, — obligation of that company of that country, it's— obligation of that company of that country, it's not to settle tten — that country, it's not to settle tten .— that country, it's not to settle tten , tte— that country, it's not to settle them , it's not— that country, it's not to settle them , it's not to— that country, it's not to settle them , it's not to refill them to

them, it's not to refill them to tte— them, it's not to refill them to tte ttoee— them, it's not to refill them to the place from _ them, it's not to refill them to the place from which they claim ttot— the place from which they claim ttot ttey— the place from which they claim ttot ttey — the place from which they claim that they were fleeing persecution - that they were fleeing persecution .- that they were fleeing persecution . and that obligation persecution. and that obligation can persecution. and that obligation te— persecution. and that obligation can be discharged— persecution. and that obligation can be discharged either in the eoontty— can be discharged either in the eoontty to— can be discharged either in the country to which— can be discharged either in the country to which they to which ttey— country to which they to which ttey ttey— country to which they to which ttey ttey eoe— country to which they to which they they come from, or in onotten— they they come from, or in another country— they they come from, or in another country in australia, in tooto— another country in australia, in tooto .— another country in australia, in tooto , o— another country in australia, in nauru , a nation— another country in australia, in nauru , a nation in— another country in australia, in nauru , a nation in the south nauru, a nation in the south toetne— nauru, a nation in the south toettte .— nauru, a nation in the south toettte , to— nauru, a nation in the south pacific , to which— nauru, a nation in the south pacific , to which in which we pacific, to which in which we tove — pacific, to which in which we have entered— pacific, to which in which we have entered into an offshore tnoeeeetng— have entered into an offshore processing agreement . processing agreement. but the ttet— processing agreement. but the tteo te— processing agreement. but the tteo t tt— processing agreement. but the tteo to to o— processing agreement. but the idea is it's a deterrent, right ? well, well, what you have to do ? well, well, what you have to to ont— ? well, well, what you have to to ont tet-e— ? well, well, what you have to do and let's call— 7’ well, well, what you have to do and let's call this for what it do and let's call this for what tt te— do and let's call this for what tt te ttte— do and let's call this for what tt te ttte te— do and let's call this for what it is, this is people smuggling ont— it is, this is people smuggling ont teotte— it is, this is people smuggling and people smuggling is one of the and people smuggling is one of tte toet— and people smuggling is one of the most evil— and people smuggling is one of the most evil and— and people smuggling is one of the most evil and insidious tonne— the most evil and insidious totne ot— the most evil and insidious forms of international crime . forms of international crime. gm,— forms of international crime. on, ont— forms of international crime. on, ont tt— forms of international crime. um, and it really— forms of international crime. um, and it really annoys me that teotte,— um, and it really annoys me that teotte, tnetottng— um, and it really annoys me that people, including good people like people, including good people ttte tte— people, including good people like the archbishop of canterbury— like the archbishop of canterbury approach this as if it canterbury approach this as if tt ee— canterbury approach this as if it were something other than an ottentt— it were something other than an ottentt ty— it were something other than an ottentt ty tte— it were something other than an attempt by the uk— it were something other than an attempt by the uk government to teot— attempt by the uk government to teot vttt— attempt by the uk government to teot vttt ttte— attempt by the uk government to deal with this evil- attempt by the uk government to deal with this evil crime of teotte— deal with this evil crime of people smuggling the way you teot— people smuggling the way you teot vttt— people smuggling the way you deal with people— people smuggling the way you deal with people smuggling, the way deal with people smuggling, the voy ttot— deal with people smuggling, the way that worked— deal with people smuggling, the way that worked in australia is

to tot— way that worked in australia is to tot tte— way that worked in australia is to put the people— way that worked in australia is to put the people smugglers out of to put the people smugglers out ot toetneee— to put the people smugglers out of business and— to put the people smugglers out of business and the way you put the of business and the way you put tte teotte— of business and the way you put the people smugglers out of toetneee— the people smugglers out of toetneee te— the people smugglers out of business is to— the people smugglers out of business is to ensure that they do business is to ensure that they to not— business is to ensure that they to not nove— business is to ensure that they to not tove o— business is to ensure that they do not have a product to sell. tot— do not have a product to sell. not ttet— do not have a product to sell. not tten yoo— do not have a product to sell. but then you have the criticism tton — but then you have the criticism tton tte — but then you have the criticism tton tte tett,— but then you have the criticism from the left, which will be, vett— from the left, which will be, wat, teotte— from the left, which will be, well, people don't have safe and tegot— well, people don't have safe and tegot tootee— well, people don't have safe and legal routes, so— well, people don't have safe and legal routes, so they have to neeot— legal routes, so they have to teeott to— legal routes, so they have to resort to these— legal routes, so they have to resort to these dangerous eoeetneg— resort to these dangerous crossings across the channel in totety— crossings across the channel in barely inflatable— crossings across the channel in barely inflatable dinghies and tteetote— barely inflatable dinghies and therefore the— barely inflatable dinghies and therefore the government isn't totng— therefore the government isn't doing - generally - therefore the government isn't doing - generally on i therefore the government isn't. doing-generally on the doing enough. generally on the picture of migration, having said that, don't know if said that, i don't know if you've in the week, but the you've seen in the week, but the figure that is about announce figure that is about to announce it announced two weeks it being announced in two weeks time net migration time is that net migration is going hit million. what's going to hit a million. what's your from an australian your view from an australian looking at uk? is that an looking at the uk? is that an acceptable of migrants looking at the uk? is that an ac(coming of migrants looking at the uk? is that an ac(coming into of migrants looking at the uk? is that an ac(coming into thisof migrants looking at the uk? is that an ac(coming into this country?its looking at the uk? is that an ac(coming into this country? do be coming into this country? do you think? i am? do not have a ten— you think? i am? do not have a oe to— you think? i am? do not have a view as to what— you think? i am? do not have a view as to what should- “

ttte— much bigger than it is. i mean, ttte te— much bigger than it is. i mean, ttte te o— much bigger than it is. i mean, this is a relatively— much bigger than it is. i mean, this is a relatively small eoontty— this is a relatively small country geographically and it's gotte— country geographically and it's quite crowded— country geographically and it's quite crowded in— country geographically and it's quite crowded in australia . it quite crowded in australia. it is quite crowded in australia. it te tte— quite crowded in australia. it is the opposite.— quite crowded in australia. it is the opposite. we are a nation the is the opposite. we are a nation tte ee— is the opposite. we are a nation tte ot— is the opposite. we are a nation the size of the— is the opposite. we are a nation the size of the continental onttet— the size of the continental united states,— the size of the continental united states, but with a totototton— united states, but with a population of— united states, but with a population of only 26 million teotte.— population of only 26 million teotte. so— population of only 26 million teotte. so yoo— population of only 26 million people. so you don't get a tetote— people. so you don't get a tetote tn— people. so you don't get a debate in australia about vtetten— debate in australia about whether australia is full. the tetote— whether australia is full. the tetote te— whether australia is full. the debate is about— whether australia is full. the debate is about how how, how, nov— debate is about how how, how, tov nony— debate is about how how, how, tov nony none— debate is about how how, how, how many more new immigrants , how many more new immigrants, ntgtonte— how many more new immigrants, ntgnonte ve— how many more new immigrants, migrants we should take in totten— migrants we should take in notten tton— migrants we should take in rather than whether we should tote. — rather than whether we should tote. tn — rather than whether we should take. in addition— rather than whether we should take. in addition numbers at ott— take. in addition numbers at ott. tot— take. in addition numbers at ott. not tte— take. in addition numbers at all. but the point here is about eoveetgnty— all. but the point here is about eovenetgnty .— all. but the point here is about sovereignty . the— all. but the point here is about sovereignty . the australian sovereignty. the australian tottey— sovereignty. the australian tottey vvte— sovereignty. the australian policy was called operation sovetetgn— policy was called operation sovereign borders and that was a tetteetton— sovereign borders and that was a tetteetton ot— sovereign borders and that was a reflection of the— sovereign borders and that was a reflection of the fact that vtoteve— reflection of the fact that whatever is _ reflection of the fact that whatever is the optimal size of a whatever is the optimal size of o notton-e— whatever is the optimal size of a nation's population , even to a nation's population, even to tte— a nation's population, even to tte extent— a nation's population, even to the extent to _ a nation's population, even to the extent to which an important eontonent— the extent to which an important eontonent ot— the extent to which an important component of that— the extent to which an important component of that population is ntgnotton— component of that population is migration intake— component of that population is migration intake ,_ component of that population is migration intake , it is for that migration intake, it is for that eoontty— migration intake, it is for that eoontty to— migration intake, it is for that country to decide— migration intake, it is for that country to decide and police vto-e— country to decide and police who's entitled— country to decide and police who's entitled to— country to decide and police who's entitled to become a etttzen— who's entitled to become a citizen. yes.— who's entitled to become a citizen. yes. and- who's entitled to become a citizen. yes. and the former aoettotton— citizen. yes. and the former australian prime minister, john tovott— australian prime minister, john tovott tot— australian prime minister, john tovott tot tt— australian prime minister, john howard put it very well in a

tttoee— howard put it very well in a ttnoee ttot— howard put it very well in a phrase that became almost icon in phrase that became almost icon tn aoettotto. — phrase that became almost icon in australia. he— phrase that became almost icon in australia. he acknowledged ttot— in australia. he acknowledged that australia's— in australia. he acknowledged that australia's humanitarian otttgottone— that australia's humanitarian obligations, which by the way we tottt— obligations, which by the way we totttt none— obligations, which by the way we fulfil more generously than most oonttee— fulfil more generously than most oontnee tn— fulfil more generously than most countries in the— fulfil more generously than most countries in the world, but then he countries in the world, but then te vent— countries in the world, but then te vent on— countries in the world, but then te vent on to— countries in the world, but then he went on to say,— countries in the world, but then he went on to say, but we will teette— he went on to say, but we will teette vto — he went on to say, but we will decide who comes— he went on to say, but we will decide who comes into this eoontty— decide who comes into this eoontty ont— decide who comes into this country and the— decide who comes into this country and the circumstance in vttet— country and the circumstance in vttet ttey— country and the circumstance in which they come.— country and the circumstance in which they come. now that oteototety— which they come. now that absolutely captured a public eenttnent— absolutely captured a public sentiment that— absolutely captured a public sentiment that i believe is as toet— sentiment that i believe is as noet tn— sentiment that i believe is as much in evidence— sentiment that i believe is as much in evidence in the united atngton— much in evidence in the united atngton oe— much in evidence in the united atngton oe tt— much in evidence in the united kingdom as it was— much in evidence in the united kingdom as it was in australia. teotte— kingdom as it was in australia. teotte tn— kingdom as it was in australia. people i'm sure,— kingdom as it was in australia. people i'm sure, good people, teotte— people i'm sure, good people, teotte ot— people i'm sure, good people, teotte ot goot— people i'm sure, good people, people of good faith have no otteetton— people of good faith have no otteetton to— people of good faith have no objection to providing to tnovtttng— objection to providing to providing help for genuine tetogeee— providing help for genuine netogeee. so— providing help for genuine refugees. so long as the government— refugees. so long as the government controls the eovenetgnty— government controls the sovereignty of - government controls the sovereignty of your borders. do you— sovereignty of your borders. do yoo tttnt— sovereignty of your borders. do you think that— sovereignty of your borders. do you think that rishi sunak etoott— you think that rishi sunak should therefore be a bit more tovont— should therefore be a bit more tovott eeooe— should therefore be a bit more howard esque in— should therefore be a bit more howard esque in his language? i to te— howard esque in his language? i mean, is he being— howard esque in his language? i mean, is he being tough- howard esque in his language? i mean, is he being tough enough on this? what would advice would you give him? well, look, it's not— you give him? well, look, it's not tte— you give him? well, look, it's not it ton— you give him? well, look, it's not it's for not— you give him? well, look, it's not it's for not me— you give him? well, look, it's not it's for not me to- g a“ a7 well, look, it's not it's for not me to advise. to.— not it's for not me to advise. to. tot— not it's for not me to advise. to. tot yote— not it's for not me to advise. no, but you're a— not it's for not me to advise. no, but you're a very- not it's for not me to advise. no, but you're a very experience politician, and therefore, you'll be observing how he's handled it. and i'm wondering whether handling

whether you think his handling is as you say, is correct, because, as you say, it was delicate for abbott. you know, had a amount know, he had a huge amount of criticism. did. but, criticism. well he did. but, i mean, one of the things- ti.” elf. �*athatinl t: t: but, i mean, one of the things about t0ny— mean, one of the things about tony attott— mean, one of the things about tony attott te— mean, one of the things about tony abbott is he— mean, one of the things about tony abbott is he is a political toogt— tony abbott is he is a political toogt goy— tony abbott is he is a political toogt goy vttt— tony abbott is he is a political tough guy with tremendous will tottet— tough guy with tremendous will tovvet tov— tough guy with tremendous will tovven tov tve— tough guy with tremendous will power. now i've met mr sunak, tot— power. now i've met mr sunak, tot-etotn— power. now i've met mr sunak, tot-etotn to— power. now i've met mr sunak, but-claim to know- power. now i've met mr sunak, but claim to know him but i don't claim to know him vett— but i don't claim to know him vettltttnt— but i don't claim to know him well.|think what- but i don't claim to know him well. think what matters more well. i think what matters more tton— well. i think what matters more tton tte— well. i think what matters more than the language farage is the tttnneee— than the language farage is the firmness _with- than the language farage is the firmness with which firmness of purpose with which the firmness of purpose with which tte tottey— firmness of purpose with which tte tottey te— firmness of purpose with which the policy is prosecuted. and on ttot— the policy is prosecuted. and on ttot-tt— the policy is prosecuted. and on ttot-tt eeee— the policy is prosecuted. and on that-it seems to- the policy is prosecuted. and on that it seems to me that that score, it seems to me that mr that score, it seems to me that ttt sonot— that score, it seems to me that ttt sonot-tte— that score, it seems to me that mr sunak his government are mr sunak and his government are tttn. — mr sunak and his government are tttn. votot— mr sunak and his government are firm. what else— mr sunak and his government are firm. what else did- mr sunak and his government are firm. what else did you- mr sunak and his government are firm. t: t: firm. what else did you think about mr sunak when he met him? half interest. but i think mr sonot— half interest. but i think mr sunak obviously— half interest. but i think mr sunak obviously a- but i think mr sunak obviously a highly, highly eontetent— sunak obviously a highly, highly competent individual and the onttet— competent individual and the united kingdom, you know, etoott,— united kingdom, you know, should, should— united kingdom, you know, should, should be glad to have him— should, should be glad to have m, ttontty— should, should be glad to have him, frankly, as— should, should be glad to have him, frankly, as your prime tttntetet— him, frankly, as your prime minister, because there are tnee— minister, because there are ttene oe— minister, because there are ttene o— minister, because there are there are a lot— minister, because there are there are a lot of nations in tte— there are a lot of nations in tte vont— there are a lot of nations in the world which— there are a lot of nations in the world which would which voott— the world which would which voott tove— the world which would which would love to— the world which would which would love to -a - would love to have a conservative- would love to have a conservative prime minister is togety— conservative prime minister is hugely competent and skilful as tttett— hugely competent and skilful as tttett sonot— hugely competent and skilful as rishi sunak and— hugely competent and skilful as rishi sunak and hardworking, to be rishi sunak and hardworking, to te tott— rishi sunak and hardworking, to te tott to— rishi sunak and hardworking, to te tott to tte— rishi sunak and hardworking, to be fair to the prime minister. tet-e— be fair to the prime minister. tet-e tott— be fair to the prime minister. let's talk about— be fair to the prime minister. let's talk about australia - be fair to the prime minister. let's talk about australia and the republic or the republic campaign. now. i thought it was interesting to see australian prime minister anthony albanese

quite happy and comfortable with the king at buckingham palace dunng the king at buckingham palace during the coronation celebrations . i during the coronation celebrations. i think during the coronation celebrations . i think there was celebrations. i think there was a bit argy bargy about well, a bit of argy bargy about well, am i welcome in australia? you haven't extended an invitation yet, obviously a yet, obviously albanese is a republican appointed republican. he's appointed this minister republic. how minister for the republic. how likely that australia likely is it that australia holds another referendum on this issue? do you think the policy of the labour government in australia , led as say, by australia, led as you say, by anthony albanese , is to progress anthony albanese, is to progress the issue of the republic, but not in its first term? it is not an issue that— not in its first term? it is not an issue that anthony- a“ �*7 ti;”a7 it is not an issue that anthony albanese has particularly— an issue that anthony albanese has particularly pressed. i mean you has particularly pressed. i mean yoo eoy— has particularly pressed. i mean yoo eoy ttene-e— has particularly pressed. i mean you say there's a— has particularly pressed. i mean you say there's a minister for tte— you say there's a minister for tte aetoott— you say there's a minister for the republic. look i know the guy-— the republic. look i know the goy. te-e— the republic. look i know the goy. te-e o— the republic. look i know the goy. te-e o te-e— the republic. look i know the guy. he's a he's a— the republic. look i know the guy. he's a he's a junior ntntetet— guy. he's a he's a junior minister. he's- guy. he's a he's a junior minister. he's not, he doesn't sit minister. he's not, he doesn't ett tn— minister. he's not, he doesn't sit in cabinet— minister. he's not, he doesn't sit in cabinet and— minister. he's not, he doesn't sit in cabinet and the republic is sit in cabinet and the republic te o— sit in cabinet and the republic te o eott— sit in cabinet and the republic te o eott ot— sit in cabinet and the republic te o eott ot o— sit in cabinet and the republic is a sort of a miscellany of, of ttttetent— is a sort of a miscellany of, of different portfolio— is a sort of a miscellany of, of different portfolio issues that net— different portfolio issues that net teottng— different portfolio issues that he's dealing with. so i wouldn't oventntenttet— he's dealing with. so i wouldn't overinterpret that,— he's dealing with. so i wouldn't overinterpret that, that said, ttoogt,— overinterpret that, that said, though, almost— overinterpret that, that said, though, almost exclusively in aoettotto,— though, almost exclusively in australia, the _ though, almost exclusively in australia, the labour party and

the australia, the labour party and tte tett— australia, the labour party and tte tett ttot— australia, the labour party and the left that are— australia, the labour party and the left that are in favour of a tetottte— the left that are in favour of a netottte ttte— the left that are in favour of a republic like most conservatives are republic like most conservatives not. — republic like most conservatives not. toet— republic like most conservatives are not. last time— republic like most conservatives are not. last time this was put to tte— are not. last time this was put to tte teet— are not. last time this was put to tte teet tn— are not. last time this was put to the test in australia was in 1999.— to the test in australia was in ttot. tt— to the test in australia was in ttot. tt vvte— to the test in australia was in 1999. it was defeated by referendum _ 1999. it was defeated by referendum in- 1999. it was defeated by referendum in every state. tenettet— referendum in every state. remember we— referendum in every state. remember we have a written constitution _ remember we have a written constitution in— remember we have a written constitution in australia. you eoottn-t— constitution in australia. you eoottn-t to— constitution in australia. you couldn't do this— constitution in australia. you couldn't do this without onenttng— couldn't do this without amending the constitution in to amending the constitution into onent— amending the constitution into onent tte— amending the constitution in to amend the constitution requires amend the constitution requires o eteettt— amend the constitution requires a special majority— amend the constitution requires a special majority . and what a special majority. and what tottenet— a special majority. and what tottenet tn— a special majority. and what happened in 1999, i think would otvoye— happened in1999, i think would otvoye totten— happened in 1999, i think would always happen whenever there is always happen whenever there is o netenenton— always happen whenever there is a referendum on— always happen whenever there is a referendum on this. it would teeoe— a referendum on this. it would teeoe o— a referendum on this. it would teeoe o tnovy— a referendum on this. it would become a proxy question for vtot-e— become a proxy question for vtot-e vtong— become a proxy question for what's wrong with our current constitution. _ what's wrong with our current constitution. yes.— what's wrong with our current constitution. yes. and so in 99 eony— constitution. yes. and so in 99 eonny, t— constitution. yes. and so in 99 eonny, t vvte— constitution. yes. and so in 99 eonny, t gotng— constitution. yes. and so in 99 sorry, i was going to say, is it a concern to the— sorry, i was going to say, is it a concern to the australian teottee — a concern to the australian teottee t— a concern to the australian people? i mean,- a concern to the australian people? a“ e a concern to the australian people? e people? i mean, is it a top of the agenda for australian people, not least with the cost of living crisis and inflation affecting you as much as us? i say that because here some say that because over here some of polling is suggesting of the polling is suggesting that monarchy is becoming that the monarchy is becoming less under 30s. less popular with the under 30s. and if you looked at and i suppose if you looked at australians who young, you australians who were young, you might might might think that they might think, point of think, well, what's the point of having as head of

having the king as head of state? other problem of state? the other problem of course, being he's not as course, being that he's not as popular his late mother. popular as his late mother. yeah, but these things fluctuate.— fluctuate. i mean, i'm old enoogt— fluctuate. i mean, i'm old enoogt to— fluctuate. i mean, i'm old enough to remember even a time vten— enough to remember even a time vten-tote— enough to remember even a time vten-tote toeen— enough to remember even a time when late queen was not as when the late queen was not as tototot— when the late queen was not as totee-anon,— when the late queen was not as popular.-know, she- when the late queen was not as popular. know, she was popular. you know, she was otvoye—eooteel always popular, of course, but, you— always popular, of course, but, yoo tnot— always popular, of course, but, you know,-popular- always popular, of course, but, you know, popular popularity you know, her popular popularity vent—ot— you know, her popular popularity vent—otltottty- went up and down at a fairly ttgt— went up and down at a fairly ttgt nonge— went up and down at a fairly high range-band- went up and down at a fairly high range band . and i high range in the band. and i tttnt— high range in the band. and i tttnt atng— high range in the band. and i think king charles, who i had gotte— think king charles, who i had gottelttt— think king charles, who i had gottelttt to— think king charles, who i had quitelbit to do— think king charles, who i had quite bit to do with when quite a bit to do with when i tte— quite a bit to do with when i tte ttgt— quite a bit to do with when i was the high commissioner in his ttet— was the high commissioner in his tten eotoetty— was the high commissioner in his tten eotoetty oe— was the high commissioner in his then capacity as prince of vtotee. — then capacity as prince of vtotee. ant— then capacity as prince of wales. and who i should say is a get— wales. and who i should say is a gteot-ot— wales. and who i should say is a great-of australia- wales. and who i should say is a great of australia and great lover of australia and vent— great lover of australia and went—school. great lover of australia andi went—school for went to secondary school for a vtte— went to secondary school for a while-australia. _ went to secondary school for a while-australia. i- went to secondary school for a while australia. i think he while in australia. i think he is while in australia. i think he te o— while in australia. i think he te o goot— while in australia. i think he te o goot non— while in australia. i think he is a good man and his goodness vtt— is a good man and his goodness vttt te— is a good man and his goodness vttt te eo— is a good man and his goodness will be so evident— is a good man and his goodness will be so evident to the australian— will be so evident to the australian people. he's a man in my vtett— australian people. he's a man in my vto— australian people. he's a man in my view, who has— australian people. he's a man in my view, who has chosen to take otvontoge— my view, who has chosen to take otvontoge ot— my view, who has chosen to take advantage of the— my view, who has chosen to take advantage of the accident of notone— advantage of the accident of notone ttot— advantage of the accident of nature that saw— advantage of the accident of nature that saw him born to be ttg— nature that saw him born to be mg, to— nature that saw him born to be mg, to to— nature that saw him born to be mg, to to goot— nature that saw him born to be king, to do good in the world. ttot— king, to do good in the world. final question— king, to do good in the world. final question should- king, to do good in the world. final question should he- king, to do good in the world. final question should he visit australia first or should it be left to the prince and princess of wales who one could argue might be a little more of celebrities and the kind of people that the australians

would rather see than perhaps the king and queen? or is that unfair? mae muller i'm going to ovott— unfair? mae muller i'm going to ovott yoot— unfair? mae muller i'm going to avoid your question. _ e. ”7’ mae muller i'm going to avoid your question. both both voott— avoid your question. both both voott te— avoid your question. both both voott te vety— avoid your question. both both would be very welcome. but i voott— would be very welcome. but i voott-oot— would be very welcome. but i would-out that- would be very welcome. but i would out that king would point out that king etontee— would point out that king charles does— would point out that king charles does have these long ttetonteot— charles does have these long historical links— charles does have these long historical links with australia. te-e— historical links with australia. te-e vtettet— historical links with australia. he's visited australia, i think , tt— he's visited australia, i think , tt tnee— he's visited australia, i think , 17 times since— he's visited australia, i think , 17 times since he went to eetoot— , 17 times since he went to eetoot . — , 17 times since he went to school . know— , 17 times since he went to school . know but- , 17 times since he went to school . , 17 times since he went to- school . know but i remember school. know but i remember being in that trip where prince george and he proved george was taken and he proved to the kind of republican to be the kind of republican dragon the children dragon slayer. so the children are quite effective in australia. absolutely . i think australia. absolutely. ithink in australia. absolutely. ithink tn eoen— australia. absolutely. ithink in each generation,- absolutely. ithink in each generation, the royal totty— in each generation, the royal family generates new stars and the family generates new stars and tte tototontty— family generates new stars and tte tototontty .— family generates new stars and the popularity , the enduring the popularity, the enduring tototontty— the popularity, the enduring tototontty ot— the popularity, the enduring tototontty ot o— the popularity, the enduring popularity of a centuries since the popularity of a centuries since tte otvent— popularity of a centuries since the advent of— popularity of a centuries since the advent of parliamentary tenoetoey— the advent of parliamentary democracy, of— the advent of parliamentary democracy, of a— the advent of parliamentary democracy, of a royal family tetteete— democracy, of a royal family reflects that— democracy, of a royal family reflects that fact. george tnontte— reflects that fact. george ttontte .— reflects that fact. george brandis , thank you very much for brandis, thank you very much for totttng— brandis, thank you very much for totntng ne— brandis, thank you very much for totntng ne tn— brandis, thank you very much for joining me in the— brandis, thank you very much for joining me in the studio this nonntng. — joining me in the studio this morning. lovely- joining me in the studio this morning. lovely to see you. pleasure. camilla thank you. now let's get back to hemel hempstead and people's hempstead and the people's panel. harwood there. tom panel. tom harwood is there. tom let know. what have they made let us know. what have they made of we've had this of the interviews we've had this morning camilla, so much morning? yes. camilla, so much to ttgeet— morning? yes. camilla, so much to ttgeet ttete— morning? yes. camilla, so much to digest there on— “g7’ yes. camilla, so much to digest there on those three.

a vtte— to digest there on those three. a vtte tonge— to digest there on those three. a wide range ing— to digest there on those three. a wide range ing interviews. vte-te— a wide range ing interviews. vtete tete— a wide range ing interviews. we're here with— a wide range ing interviews. we're here with john maude and netott— we're here with john maude and tttetott etttt— we're here with john maude and richard still and— we're here with john maude and richard still and maude . when we richard still and maude. when we ttetentng— richard still and maude. when we were listening to— richard still and maude. when we were listening to what grant stotte— were listening to what grant stotte tot— were listening to what grant stotte tot to— were listening to what grant shapps had to say about the eu law shapps had to say about the eu tov o—totn— shapps had to say about the eu tov o—totn .— shapps had to say about the eu law u—turn , you— shapps had to say about the eu law u—turn , you seem to get law u—turn, you seem to get a bit exercised— law u—turn, you seem to get a bit exercised ,_ law u—turn, you seem to get a bit exercised , particularly bit exercised, particularly otoot— bit exercised, particularly otoot tov— bit exercised, particularly about how kemi badenoch has tetovet— about how kemi badenoch has behaved this— about how kemi badenoch has behaved this week. it was really tteottotnttng,— behaved this week. it was really disappointing, really disappointing. c c disappointing. it's like the french brexit off the back of the boat, haven't they ? kemi the boat, haven't they? kemi badenoch was such a promising young , badenoch was such a promising young, vibrant, forthright woman and certainly in the leadership contest there was so much support for her and so much hope. and this week's performance , really it was that performance, really it was that hint of arrogance that we were discussing that i think has led a lot of people down. but hopefully she, as we've said, that she will learn from that and pick herself back up and move forward. but yes , this move forward. but yes, this week, as far as brexit is concerned, has been utterly devastating and ed richard, as an electric car driver, the ulez

discussion that we saw with with jonathan reynolds, how did that affect you ? well, cars are affect you? well, cars are eeonett— affect you? well, cars are cleaner than _ i tit7 well, cars are cleaner than they've ever been. ttete— cleaner than they've ever been. ttete ten-t— cleaner than they've ever been. ttete ten-t o— cleaner than they've ever been. there isn't a car— cleaner than they've ever been. there isn't a car out— cleaner than they've ever been. there isn't a car out there- cleaner than they've ever been. there isn't a car out there that isn't fitted with either a catalyser or a catalytic converter that is far more efficient than cars of years ago. so hearing reynolds trying to defend the ulez khan's policy is frankly ridiculous . and i is frankly ridiculous. and i think it's probably best summed up think it's probably best summed ”p by think it's probably best summed up by mr lammy, who said that if you're a plumber, you should be using public transport to go and go and do your various jobs, which sounds great, doesn't it? carrying around a gas boiler and three metre lengths of copper pipet three metre lengths of copper pipe, you know, we need these people to do the jobs that we need them to do in london. and if they can't do it, what will people do for routine maintenance, for boiler service 7 maintenance, for boiler service ? singh et cetera. et cetera. it's just a ridiculous policy which needs to be stamped on. but labour just busy defending it. well, it's really interesting- c well, it's really

interesting to see how it. well, it's really— interesting to see how jonathan teeynotte— interesting to see how jonathan tteynotte eott— interesting to see how jonathan reynolds said this is to do with the reynolds said this is to do with tte ttoyot— reynolds said this is to do with the mayor rather— reynolds said this is to do with the mayor rather than the labour party,— the mayor rather than the labour tony, oe— the mayor rather than the labour tony, oe tt— the mayor rather than the labour party, as if they're _ the mayor rather than the labour party, as if they're entirely eetonote. — party, as if they're entirely separate. yes,— party, as if they're entirely separate. yes, it- party, as if they're entirely separate. aa/ti;s c : i separate. yes, it does smack a little bit of they're trying to take a back step and disassociate themselves with mayor khan . well, let's turn to mayor khan. well, let's turn to ttte— mayor khan. well, let's turn to ttte goeetton— mayor khan. well, let's turn to this question of— a“ well, let's turn to this question of energy infrastructure, because it to me,— infrastructure, because it to t— infrastructure, because it to t ton-t— infrastructure, because it to me, i don't know. do you think ttot— me, i don't know. do you think ttot etont— me, i don't know. do you think that grant shapps— me, i don't know. do you think that grant shapps answered your goeettone— that grant shapps answered your guestion?j0bn — that grant shapps answered your question? john >_ that grant shapps answered your question?john a» that grant shapps answered your question? john a» ”i“ frankly, not in the least. it i don't think that the least. it i don't think that the non technical politicians, which is the vast majority of them, have actually been able to understand the consequences of a wholesale switch in energy consumption or the energy density of gas in pipes is very high . electricity requires high. electricity requires cables of varying sizes, substations , transformers, the substations, transformers, the infrastructure is in many ways far more complicated than gas and simply to push hundreds of amps into each domestic dwelling to run the heating charge . the to run the heating charge. the car cars, plural, probably in

many homes do the cooking and everything else. we just need a wholesale upgrade of infrastructure . i know that infrastructure. i know that there are cables in the ground that were buried in the 1890s. they are done by victorian electrical engineers and they were of exceedingly high quality and they've lasted over 100 years. but there size is the issue. it's not the quality of the stuff in the ground. you wouldn't replace it except that you need more capacity. it's a huge , huge task that perhaps we huge, huge task that perhaps we haven't really fully woken up to. i do want to mention the eeotge— to. i do want to mention the george brandis— i do want to mention the george brandis interview there. aoetnotto-e— george brandis interview there. australia's experience with etotttng— australia's experience with stopping small boats coming to ttot— stopping small boats coming to ttot eoontty. — stopping small boats coming to that country. i'm— stopping small boats coming to that country. i'm going to throw ttte— that country. i'm going to throw ttte-oten— that country. i'm going to throw ttte-oten to— that country. i'm going to throw this-open to the— that country. i'm going to throw this open to the panel. does this one open to the panel. does yoe— this one open to the panel. does yoe tove— this one open to the panel. does anyone have anything to say otoot—tetotei anyone have anything to say- about_perhaps could about what the uk perhaps could teotn— about what the uk perhaps could learn -australia?_ about what the uk perhaps could learn australia? well if learn from australia? well if you— learn from australia? well if yoo ton-t— learn from australia? well if you don't mind— learn from australia? well if you don't mind me saying, tottovtng— you don't mind me saying, following the— you don't mind me saying, following the policy that ttey-ve — following the policy that they've they've done there, it ttot— they've they've done there, it seems that we're _ they've they've done there, it seems that we're probably about 2 seems that we're probably about a ot— seems that we're probably about a on o— seems that we're probably about a on o yeote— seems that we're probably about 2 or 3 years behind— seems that we're probably about 2 or 3 years behind in the process. yes.— 2 or 3 years behind in the process. aa/ti;s ' “t:

2 or 3 years behind in the process. aa/ti;s . c a“ “g 2 or 3 years behind in the process. /tis c “g process. yes. and listening to mr welby talk about it, my first thought was, well, who voted for you, mr welby ? this should be you, mr welby? this should be down to our elected politician and hearing various people like mr welby speak, speak about it. i just think, yeah , fine, you're i just think, yeah, fine, you're entitled to an opinion. mr welby , but i want our elected politicians to deal with this and i want it dealt with in a humane just fashion. i want refugees to be able to come here. we've welcomed over half a million since 2014 or 2015. i think it is. but frankly , the think it is. but frankly, the boat situation can be summed up. i don't know if you remember a few years ago in greece, there was an issue with a boat and there was a horrible photograph of a police officer carrying a dead child . and that's just dead child. and that's just unaccept . annabelle moore do you unaccept. annabelle moore do you have any views on the archbishop getting involved in policy and in in such a such an unusual way this week ? i do actually, tom this week? i do actually, tom to.— this week? i do actually, tom

to. toetne— this week? i do actually, tom no. justine stick— this week? i do actually, tom no. justine stick to- 7 i do actually, tom no. justine stick to the pulpit . ant— no. justine stick to the pulpit . ant tonn— no. justine stick to the pulpit . ant totn on— no. justine stick to the pulpit . and john on this on this goeetton— . and john on this on this goeetton on— . and john on this on this question on i— . and john on this on this question on i suppose it opens up question on i suppose it opens ot ttgge— question on i suppose it opens up bigger questions about the tote— up bigger questions about the note ot— up bigger questions about the note ot tte— up bigger questions about the role of the house— up bigger questions about the role of the house of lords and ttetote— role of the house of lords and ttetote tn— role of the house of lords and bishops in general. role of the house of lords and bishops in general . / c bishops in general. yeah, it eettotnty— bishops in general. yeah, it certainly does. i think well be needs to, as a christian minister, to stick to biblical principles of morality, which he clearly doesn't in a vast number of areas. and on the question of refugees and giving succour to those who are in trouble is definitely a christian moral value . but we're not talking value. but we're not talking about refugees. people are not free fleeing france because it is an oppressive regime . they're is an oppressive regime. they're leaving france because they would prefer to be in the uk . would prefer to be in the uk. they cannot be refugees by definition . oh, i know refugees definition. oh, i know refugees from iran persecuted for religious belief. i know refugees from ukraine. we look after refugees. but economic

migrants and people trafficking , that's a very different thing. is that distinction. it needs to be is that distinction. it needs to te note— is that distinction. it needs to be made clear.— is that distinction. it needs to be made clear. well, camilla, tnoee— be made clear. well, camilla, ttoee oe— be made clear. well, camilla, those are the— be made clear. well, camilla, those are the views of the panel tene— those are the views of the panel tete tn— those are the views of the panel tete tn tenet— those are the views of the panel here in hemel hempstead . i'll here in hemel hempstead. i'll tont— here in hemel hempstead. i'll tont toet— here in hemel hempstead. i'll tont toet to— here in hemel hempstead. i'll hand back to you.— here in hemel hempstead. i'll hand back to you. i'm loving the teotte-e— hand back to you. i'm loving the teotte-e totet— hand back to you. i'm loving the people's panel from hemel tenteteot. — people's panel from hemel. hempstead. _very people's panel from hemel- hempstead. _very much, hempstead. thank you very much, tom. if tom. great job. don't forget, if you to apply to next week's you want to apply to next week's panel you want to apply to next week's panel, go gb news .uk forward panel, go to gb news .uk forward slash panel . now, up, are slash panel. now, coming up, are the preparing go the lib dems preparing to go into with labour? it's into coalition with labour? it's a question their leader, a question that their leader, sir repeatedly sir ed davey, has repeatedly refused answer and something refused to answer and something i'll be asking lib dem mp christine jardine in just a moment. back in a jiffy. don't go anywhere

you're listening to gb ukraine. you're listening to gb teve— ukraine. you're listening to gb teve totto— ukraine. you're listening to gb teve teotto .— ukraine. you're listening to gb news radio . well— news radio. well come back to the news radio. well come back to tte eonttto— news radio. well come back to the camilla tominey show. tovety— the camilla tominey show. tovety to— the camilla tominey show. lovely to have— the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your- the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this morning. now we've succeeded in getting a serving liberal democrat mp to on gb news democrat mp to appear on gb news christine jardine joins me now. she's the mp for edinburgh west.

christine i hope you can hear me now. there's been lots of talk about coalition. we had the local results, labour local election results, labour needed a 10% swing. they only got a 5% swing. we're heading for hung parliament. lib for a hung parliament. the lib dems need to prop up a dems might need to prop up a minority labour government . what minority labour government. what would that christine well would you do that christine well , we are doing is making sure that we win as many seats from every party as we possibly can. we are not talking about coalitions— we are not talking about coalitions .— we are not talking about coalitions . we- we are not talking about coalitions . we are. you are coalitions. we are. you are ttoogt,— coalitions. we are. you are though, working hard . we are not though, working hard. we are not we are not taking— though, working hard. we are not we are not taking voters for gtontet— we are not taking voters for gnontet tn— we are not taking voters for granted in the— we are not taking voters for granted in the way the conservative - granted in the way the conservative party do. we are oot— conservative party do. we are oot ttete. — conservative party do. we are oot ttete. vte— conservative party do. we are out there. we are— conservative party do. we are out there. we are working for even— out there. we are working for eveny vote— out there. we are working for eveny vote tn— out there. we are working for every vote in the— out there. we are working for every vote in the general eteetton— every vote in the general election whenever it might come. but election whenever it might come. not tenennet— election whenever it might come. but remember, we— election whenever it might come. but remember, we don't know when it's but remember, we don't know when it got— but remember, we don't know when it got to— but remember, we don't know when it got to te. — but remember, we don't know when tt-e got to te. ant— but remember, we don't know when it's got to be. and until then, tneteot— it's got to be. and until then, tneteot ot— it's got to be. and until then, instead of focusing on process, vttet— instead of focusing on process, which conservatives seem to which the conservatives seem to tove— which the conservatives seem to tove ot— which the conservatives seem to tove ot tte— which the conservatives seem to love at the moment because it ttetnoete— love at the moment because it distracts-what— love at the moment because it distracts what mess they're distracts from what mess they're tottng— distracts from what mess they're tottng-eeonony- distracts from what mess they're making economy the making of the economy and the eeoge— making of the economy and the sewage on our beaches, instead of sewage on our beaches, instead ot totng— sewage on our beaches, instead ot totng ttot,— sewage on our beaches, instead of doing that, we— sewage on our beaches, instead of doing that, we should be totttng— of doing that, we should be votttng to— of doing that, we should be working to clear— of doing that, we should be working to clear these problems up working to clear these problems ot tneteot— working to clear these problems ot tneteot ot— working to clear these problems up instead of distracting from tten —

up instead of distracting from tten ty— up instead of distracting from them by talking— up instead of distracting from them by talking about the genetot— them by talking about the general election when we don't tnot— general election when we don't know vten — general election when we don't know when it's— general election when we don't know when it's going to be. i anon— know when it's going to be. i know yote— know when it's going to be. i know yote o— know when it's going to be. i know you're a really- know when it's going to be. i know you're a really straight talking woman. i'm a straight talking woman. i'm a straight talking woman. i'm a straight talking woman. let's just get down to brass tacks here. down to the brass tacks here. the dems aren't going to win the lib dems aren't going to win the next election. that looks highly, highly unlikely. what looks is a hung looks likely is a hung parliament situation . can we parliament situation. can we just discuss whether this is something you will consider ? you something you will consider? you know what our viewers and listeners are like? they just want straight to the want a straight answer to the straight sure the straight question. i'm sure the lib can do it. will sir ed lib dems can do it. will sir ed davey consider propping up a keir starmer government . can we keir starmer government. can we talk in those terms ? yeah, we talk in those terms? yeah, we certainly we can— talk in those terms? yeah, we certainly we can talk- a“ 7 yeah, we certainly we can talk about it vten— certainly we can talk about it vten tte— certainly we can talk about it when the general election comes, we when the general election comes, ve vtt— when the general election comes, ve vttt te— when the general election comes, we will be talking— when the general election comes, we will be talking about the genetot— we will be talking about the general election. but what we vtt— general election. but what we vttt not— general election. but what we vttt not te— general election. but what we will not be talking about is a eootttton. — will not be talking about is a coalition. we— will not be talking about is a coalition. we have no plans at tte— coalition. we have no plans at tte nnonnent— coalition. we have no plans at the moment to— coalition. we have no plans at the moment to enter coalition so the moment to enter coalition so yote— the moment to enter coalition so yote tottng— the moment to enter coalition so you're ruling out— the moment to enter coalition so you're ruling out a- the moment to enter coalition so you're ruling out a coalition to win as many seats ? we want to to win as many seats? we want to win as to win as many seats? we want to vtn oe nony— to win as many seats? we want to vtn oe nony eeote— to win as many seats? we want to win as many seats as— to win as many seats? we want to win as many seats as we- a“ "37g 7 we want to win as many seats as we possibly ot— win as many seats as we possibly ot tte— win as many seats as we possibly can at the next— win as many seats as we possibly can at the next election. okay. ttot-e— can at the next election. okay. ttot-e vtee— can at the next election. okay. that's where our— can at the next election. okay. that's where our focus is, ttgttt— that's where our focus is, ttgtte anon— that's where our focus is, right? know we're thinking about . i right? know we're thinking about . t know. — right? know we're thinking about . t know. ant— right? know we're thinking about . i know. and that— right? know we're thinking about . i know. and that is a straight

answer—who want. . i know. and that is a straight answer who want to answer for people who want to know— answer for people who want to anon-ve— answer for people who want to tnov-ve oe— answer for people who want to know we are doing. we are know what we are doing. we are toeoetng— know what we are doing. we are toeoetng on— know what we are doing. we are focusing on winning as many eeote— focusing on winning as many eeote oe— focusing on winning as many seats as we possibly can. so teotte— seats as we possibly can. sol people—represents people get better, represents tton— people get better, represents tton ttey— people get better, represents than they - had - people get better, represents than they had during this than they have had during this eoneenvottve— than they have had during this conservative government. i'm gotng— conservative government. i'm gotng-note— conservative government. i'm going-make this- conservative government. i'm going make this really going to make this really etntte— going to make this really etnttelotoy- going to make this really etnttelotoy .- going to make this really simple. og�*; c tita“ going to make this really- simple.iokay . coalition with simple. okay. coalition with laboun simple. okay. coalition with labour. there are three potential answers . yes. no no. potential answers. yes. no no. maybe christine . can but sorry. maybe christine. can but sorry. coalition with— maybe christine. can but sorry. coalition with labour- maybe christine. can but sorry. coalition with labour is- jilin ci a“ but sorry. coalition with labour is not eonetttng— coalition with labour is not something we— coalition with labour is not something we are talking about. i something we are talking about. t ton-t— something we are talking about. t ton-t tnov— something we are talking about. i don't know how— something we are talking about. i don't know how often i have to say— i don't know how often i have to eoy ttte— i don't know how often i have to say this before— i don't know how often i have to say this before you— i don't know how often i have to say this before you get it. we onty— say this before you get it. we are only focusing— say this before you get it. we are only focusing on what we do, but are only focusing on what we do, tot totoon— are only focusing on what we do, tot totoot to— are only focusing on what we do, but labour do is— are only focusing on what we do, but labour do is entirely up to the but labour do is entirely up to tte vote — but labour do is entirely up to the voters. okay— but labour do is entirely up to the voters. okay they will vote for the voters. okay they will vote tot totoot— the voters. okay they will vote for labour in— the voters. okay they will vote for labour in the— the voters. okay they will vote for labour in the seats where totoot— for labour in the seats where totoot eon— for labour in the seats where labour can win— for labour in the seats where labour can win and they will vote— labour can win and they will vote ton— labour can win and they will vote tot oe— labour can win and they will vote for us and— labour can win and they will vote for us and the seats will. vte— vote for us and the seats will. we eon— vote for us and the seats will. we vtt— vote for us and the seats will. we can win because the priority, as we can win because the priority, oe vveeeen- tton - we can win because the priority, as we seen from the as we have seen from the conservatives— as we have seen from the conservatives last debacle at tte— conservatives last debacle at tte toeot— conservatives last debacle at the local council— conservatives last debacle at the local council elections this tottn— the local council elections this nontt, te— the local council elections this month, is that— the local council elections this month, is that people are sick ont— month, is that people are sick ont tttet— month, is that people are sick ont tttet ot— month, is that people are sick and tired of the— month, is that people are sick and tired of the way they are tonntng— and tired of the way they are nonntng tte— and tired of the way they are running the country and they wont— running the country and they wont to— running the country and they want to know— running the country and they want to know or— running the country and they want to know or maybe do that. teotte— want to know or maybe do that. teotte vote— want to know or maybe do that. people vote for— want to know or maybe do that. people vote for us— want to know or maybe do that. people vote for us or they will

vote — people vote for us or they will vote tot— people vote for us or they will vote for labour— people vote for us or they will vote for labour so— people vote for us or they will vote for labour so that the conservatives _ vote for labour so that the conservatives do not have the ttggeet— conservatives do not have the biggest number— conservatives do not have the biggest number of seats in the next— biggest number of seats in the next parliament.— biggest number of seats in the next parliament. is that a no? or next parliament. is that a no? ot noyte— next parliament. is that a no? ot noyte not — next parliament. is that a no? or maybe no? what- next parliament. is that a no? tijj” “tit7 what i'm next parliament. is that a no? cj” “tit7 what i'm telling or maybe no? what i'm telling you or maybe no? what i'm telling yoo te— or maybe no? what i'm telling yoo te vtot— or maybe no? what i'm telling yoo te vtot ve— or maybe no? what i'm telling you is what we are— cj” “tit7 what i'm telling you is what we are thinking and vtot— you is what we are thinking and vtot ve— you is what we are thinking and vtot ve oe— you is what we are thinking and what we are thinking is that we vtt— what we are thinking is that we vttt te— what we are thinking is that we will be contesting— what we are thinking is that we will be contesting every single eeot— will be contesting every single eeot tn— will be contesting every single eeot tn ttte— will be contesting every single seat in this country against evety— seat in this country against eveny etngte— seat in this country against every single party and we will be every single party and we will te totng— every single party and we will be doing everything we can to be doing everything we canto tte— be doing everything we can to increase the number of liberal oenoenot— increase the number of liberal democrat seats— increase the number of liberal democrat seats and we are in eeeont— democrat seats and we are in eeeont ttoee— democrat seats and we are in eeont ttoee tn— democrat seats and we are in second place in 80 to 90 seats ont— second place in 80 to 90 seats and across the _ second place in 80 to 90 seats and across the country to all totttee— and across the country to all totttee .— and across the country to all tontee . ant— and across the country to all parties . and we— and across the country to all parties . and we will be doing parties. and we will be doing evenytttng— parties. and we will be doing evenytttng ve— parties. and we will be doing everything we can to win in eeote— everything we can to win in eeote ttte— everything we can to win in seats like sheffield hallam, vttet— seats like sheffield hallam, vttet ve— seats like sheffield hallam, which we want— seats like sheffield hallam, which we want to take from totoot. — which we want to take from totoot. vte— which we want to take from labour. we just— which we want to take from labour. we just recently took tott— labour. we just recently took hull council— labour. we just recently took hull council seats there from totoot,— hull council seats there from totoot, eo— hull council seats there from labour, so this— hull council seats there from labour, so this story about us in labour, so this story about us tn totoot— labour, so this story about us tn totoot te— labour, so this story about us in labour is being, i think ttontty— in labour is being, i think ttontty te— in labour is being, i think frankly is coming from the conservatives— frankly is coming from the conservatives who want to ttettoet— conservatives who want to distract from _ conservatives who want to distract from the mess they have note— distract from the mess they have note ot— distract from the mess they have note ot tte— distract from the mess they have made of the country and the fact ttot— made of the country and the fact ttot ot— made of the country and the fact ttot ot tte— made of the country and the fact that at the moment— made of the country and the fact that at the moment they're torn otott— that at the moment they're torn otott ty— that at the moment they're torn oton ty ttte— that at the moment they're torn apart by this internal division otoot— apart by this internal division otoot vtot— apart by this internal division about what they— apart by this internal division about what they should, they etoott — about what they should, they etoott te — about what they should, they should be doing—

about what they should, they should be doing and where does tonte— should be doing and where does tone totneon— should be doing and where does boris johnson and— should be doing and where does boris johnson and having eetotote— boris johnson and having separate conferences now that's tot— separate conferences now that's tot ton— separate conferences now that's tot tot tte— separate conferences now that's bad for the country and that has to etot— bad for the country and that has to etot . — bad for the country and that has to stop . christine— bad for the country and that has to stop . t: to stop. christine jardine, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. i'm very welcome . i'm still not very welcome. i'm still not clear on whether there is going to be a coalition with labour, but there we have it now coming up, what is it like to be living with ocd but also living with it in parliament? that's something a sir charles a senior tory mp, sir charles walker, has been telling me about. able hear my about. you'll be able to hear my interview him in just interview with him in just a moment. go

on gb news the people's channel. britain is watching . welcome britain is watching. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to see you this nonntng. — show. lovely to see you this nonntng. tov— lovely to see you this morning. now mental health awareness week— morning. now mental health awareness week starts tomorrow. tottet— awareness week starts tomorrow. totttet tn— awareness week starts tomorrow. totttet tn tte— awareness week starts tomorrow. earlier in the week,— awareness week starts tomorrow. earlier in the week, i spoke to sir earlier in the week, i spoke to so etontee— earlier in the week, i spoke to sir charles walker, tory grandee ont— sir charles walker, tory grandee ont ttt— sir charles walker, tory grandee ont ttt tot— sir charles walker, tory grandee and mp for broxbourne. he has oeeeettve— and mp for broxbourne. he has obsessive compulsive disorder ont— obsessive compulsive disorder ont etontet— obsessive compulsive disorder and started off— obsessive compulsive disorder and started off by telling me vtot— and started off by telling me vtot tte— and started off by telling me what it's like- and started off by telling me what it's like to— and started off by telling me what it's like to live with the eontttton— what it's like to live with the eontttton .— what it's like to live with the condition . so— what it's like to live with the condition . so i— what it's like to live with the condition . so i obsess over condition. so i obsess over tntnge—

condition. so i obsess over tttnge. — condition. so i obsess over tttnge. so— condition. so i obsess over things. so i've- condition. so i obsess over things . a“ condition. so i obsess over things. so i've when it's particularly active, i do a lot of counting, a lot of washing, a lot of bargaining. you make pacts lot of bargaining. you make toete vttt— lot of bargaining. you make pacts with with— g a“ “g you make pacts with with yourself. so if you— pacts with with yourself. so if yoo tt— pacts with with yourself. so if yoo tt yoo — pacts with with yourself. so if yoo tt yoo tove— pacts with with yourself. so if you if you have to do x, y and z, you if you have to do x, y and z, teeooee— you if you have to do x, y and z, teeooee tt— you if you have to do x, y and z, because if you— you if you have to do x, y and z, because if you don't, eonetttng— z, because if you don't, something awful will happen. so i something awful will happen. so t nenttonet— something awful will happen. so i mentioned it— something awful will happen. so i mentioned it in— something awful will happen. so i mentioned it in the chamber. tte— i mentioned it in the chamber. tt-e t— i mentioned it in the chamber. it's i personally— i mentioned it in the chamber. it's i personally regard it as as it's i personally regard it as oe o gttt— it's i personally regard it as oe o gttt .— it's i personally regard it as oe o gttt. t— it's i personally regard it as as a gift. i know- it's i personally regard it as as a gift. i know for many it is as a gift. i know for many it is otettttte— as a gift. i know for many it is a terrible demon— as a gift. i know for many it is a terrible demon that creates toge— a terrible demon that creates toge oteet— a terrible demon that creates toge oteet ont— a terrible demon that creates huge upset and pain. but i've otvoye— huge upset and pain. but i've otvoye eott— huge upset and pain. but i've always said it's— huge upset and pain. but i've always said it's made me more entottette— always said it's made me more empathetic and— always said it's made me more empathetic and understanding , empathetic and understanding, tovtng— empathetic and understanding, tovtng to— empathetic and understanding, tovtng to eott— empathetic and understanding, having to sort of— empathetic and understanding, having to sort of wrestle with t. — having to sort of wrestle with t. vttet — having to sort of wrestle with t. vttet ttt— having to sort of wrestle with it. when did you- having to sort of wrestle with it. when did you first- having to sort of wrestle with it. when did you first notice that you had it? when i was 13, ont— that you had it? when i was 13, ont t— that you had it? when i was 13, ont a not— that you had it? when i was 13, ont t tot no— that you had it? when i was 13, and i had no idea— that you had it? when i was 13, and i had no idea what- “it: 7 when i was 13, and i had no idea what it “iti 7 when i was 13, and i had no idea what it was. ant— and i had no idea what it was. ant neotty— and i had no idea what it was. ant teotty ,— and i had no idea what it was. ant .ggty, t— and i had no idea what it was. and really , i don't— and i had no idea what it was. and really , i don't think and really, i don't think i tnotenty— and really, i don't think i properly worked out what it was ontt— properly worked out what it was onttt t— properly worked out what it was until i became— properly worked out what it was until i became a— properly worked out what it was until i became a member of parliament. _ until i became a member of parliament. you? until i became a member of parliament. �*atha ann 7’ i until i became a member of parliament. �*athaann7’ i parliament. why? because you were more grown up and you could because somebody sent me a book on ocd and i think i recall i

thought i thought, oh my god, i've been found out. you know, they've i've been found out. you know, ttey-ve etottet— i've been found out. you know, they've spotted me— i've been found out. you know, they've spotted me on- a“ “ti you know, they've spotted me on the tenetee— they've spotted me on the benches with— they've spotted me on the benches with a— they've spotted me on the benches with a tick or something. - benches with a tick or something. you get these nervous tee.— something. you get these nervous ttee. ttot-e— something. you get these nervous tics. that's sort— something. you get these nervous tics. that's sort of— something. you get these nervous tics. that's sort of when i teottee— tics. that's sort of when i realise what— tics. that's sort of when i realise what it— tics. that's sort of when i realise what it what it was. i ny— realise what it what it was. i mean, my family— realise what it what it was. i mean, my family have known i've had mean, my family have known i've tot tt— mean, my family have known i've tot tt ton— mean, my family have known i've had it for years— mean, my family have known i've had it for years going in and oot— had it for years going in and oot ot— had it for years going in and out of rooms— had it for years going in and out of rooms 20— had it for years going in and out of rooms 20 times, turning off out of rooms 20 times, turning ott ttgtte— out of rooms 20 times, turning off lights, sweats,— out of rooms 20 times, turning off lights, sweats, switches, voettng— off lights, sweats, switches, washing hands,— off lights, sweats, switches, washing hands, so on and so tottt— washing hands, so on and so tontt. tot— washing hands, so on and so tontt. not oe— washing hands, so on and so forth. but as i— washing hands, so on and so forth. but as i say, it's there tnee— forth. but as i say, it's there are times when— forth. but as i say, it's there are times when it's particularly oettve— are times when it's particularly oettve ont— are times when it's particularly active and times— are times when it's particularly active and times when it's not. so active and times when it's not. so tnee— active and times when it's not. so times when— active and times when it's not. so times when you— active and times when it's not. so times when you change and vten— so times when you change and vten ttete-e— so times when you change and when there's a— so times when you change and when there's a big— so times when you change and when there's a big change in yoot— when there's a big change in your-becomes- when there's a big change in your becomes very your life, it becomes very oettve.— your life, it becomes very oettve-ton— your life, it becomes very active. for example, when active. so for example, when i teee— active. so for example, when i teee o— active. so for example, when i became a member— active. so for example, when i became a member of parliament, it became a member of parliament, tt-vent— became a member of parliament, tt-vent tnto— became a member of parliament, it-went into sort- became a member of parliament, it-went into sort of- it sort of went into sort of oten— it sort of went into sort of uber overdrive— it sort of went into sort of uber overdrive and now it's in a eotte— uber overdrive and now it's in a eotne ttoee— uber overdrive and now it's in a calmer phase and— uber overdrive and now it's in a calmer phase and it's kind of teen— calmer phase and it's kind of been misunderstood over the yeote— been misunderstood over the ye — been misunderstood over the yeote. voo— been misunderstood over the years . you know,- been misunderstood over the years. a/titt. been misunderstood over the years. a/tit. been misunderstood over the years. a/titt. asti years. you know, people use the term ocd quite casually to suggest it refers to people who are obsessive about tidying. that's not what we're talking about here, is it? just explain how it actually works in your own brain, which so, look, i don't i have a mild form of ocd, but there are some people where it is absolutely life changing.

so they might have to blink a ttooeont— so they might have to blink a thousand times— so they might have to blink a thousand times and they lose eoont— thousand times and they lose eoont ot— thousand times and they lose eoont ot tte— thousand times and they lose count at 998 or— thousand times and they lose count at 998 or something and tove— count at 998 or something and tove to— count at 998 or something and tove to etont— count at 998 or something and have to start again. and i mean, ttete— have to start again. and i mean, ttene oe— have to start again. and i mean, ttene teotte— have to start again. and i mean, there are people with ocd who ent— there are people with ocd who ent-tn— there are people with ocd who entltn tn— there are people with ocd who end-in in mental- there are people with ocd who end in in mental health wards end up in in mental health wards teeooee— end up in in mental health wards teeooee ttey— end up in in mental health wards because they require significant tntenventtone— because they require significant interventions .— because they require significant interventions . and i have interventions. and i have enormous sympathy for them. toettty— enormous sympathy for them. toettty ttene — enormous sympathy for them. luckily there are— enormous sympathy for them. luckily there are treatments ttot— luckily there are treatments ttot one— luckily there are treatments that one can— luckily there are treatments that one can undergo take that can can ease people's symptoms, tov— can can ease people's symptoms, tov tt— can can ease people's symptoms, how it manifests— can can ease people's symptoms, how it manifests itself. but for teotte— how it manifests itself. but for teotte ot— how it manifests itself. but for teotte ot tte— how it manifests itself. but for people at the extreme end, it is oteototety— people at the extreme end, it is absolutely life— people at the extreme end, it is absolutely life changing. i voottn-t— absolutely life changing. i wouldn't wish— absolutely life changing. i wouldn't wish it on anyone, but tttevtee— wouldn't wish it on anyone, but tttevtee .— wouldn't wish it on anyone, but tttevtee , oe— wouldn't wish it on anyone, but likewise , as i've— wouldn't wish it on anyone, but likewise , as i've learned to likewise, as i've learned to ove— likewise, as i've learned to ttve vttt— likewise, as i've learned to live with it,- likewise, as i've learned to live with it, it- likewise, as i've learned to live with it, it gives me a tegnee— live with it, it gives me a tegnee ot— live with it, it gives me a degree of insight. i think, to nyeett— degree of insight. i think, to nyeett ont— degree of insight. i think, to myself and others that i voottn-t— myself and others that i wouldn't have- myself and others that i wouldn't have . and i can talk to wouldn't have. and i can talk to teotte— wouldn't have. and i can talk to teotte vttt— wouldn't have. and i can talk to teotte vttt oeo— wouldn't have. and i can talk to people with ocd and be empathetic— people with ocd and be empathetic and sympathetic. vtot-e— empathetic and sympathetic. vttot-e tte — empathetic and sympathetic. what's the significance of doing tntnge— what's the significance of doing tttnge tn— what's the significance of doing tttnge tn aeas— what's the significance of doing things in acas ?_ what's the significance of doing things in acas ? it's finding things in acas? it's finding totonee. — things in acas? it's finding balance. i've— things in acas? it's finding balance. i've always said it's otoot— balance. i've always said it's about finding— balance. i've always said it's about finding balance. that's about finding balance. so that's vtee— about finding balance. so that's vtee tn— about finding balance. so that's vtee tn tn— about finding balance. so that's where i'm in equilibrium. if you

do where i'm in equilibrium. if you to eonetttng— where i'm in equilibrium. if you do something that— where i'm in equilibrium. if you do something that find do something that you find tootee,— do something that you find. balance, _received balance, how was it received vten— balance, how was it received vten yoo— balance, how was it received vten yoo note— balance, how was it received when you made the speech in zone — when you made the speech in 2012? because— when you made the speech in 2012? i iti when you made the speech in 2012? i i a“ c 2012? because actually when it comes to acceptance of mental health, lot's happened health, a lot's happened in the last think it's been last decade. i think it's been tte— last decade. i think it's been tt-e teen— ii: i think it's been it's been extraordinary . what it's been extraordinary. what i did it's been extraordinary. what i ttt voe— it's been extraordinary. what i ttt ttny— it's been extraordinary. what i ttt ttny .— it's been extraordinary. what i did was tiny . my— it's been extraordinary. what i did was tiny . my colleague kevin did was tiny. my colleague kevin tonee— did was tiny. my colleague kevin tone on— did was tiny. my colleague kevin tone on tte— did was tiny. my colleague kevin jones on the labour benches tottet— jones on the labour benches talked about— jones on the labour benches talked about living with depression— talked about living with depression and he is an amazing ont— depression and he is an amazing ont ttte— depression and he is an amazing man and this something that man and this is something that ottttete— man and this is something that afflicts lots— man and this is something that afflicts lots of— man and this is something that afflicts lots of people . i'm not afflicts lots of people. i'm not at afflicts lots of people. i'm not ot tte— afflicts lots of people. i'm not at the extreme— afflicts lots of people. i'm not at the extreme end. we have to ontetetont— at the extreme end. we have to understand that— at the extreme end. we have to understand that there is a eteetnon — understand that there is a eteetnon ot— understand that there is a spectrum of mental health tttneee— spectrum of mental health illness and _ spectrum of mental health illness and some people suffer vttt— illness and some people suffer vttt ttte— illness and some people suffer with life changing illnesses . with life changing illnesses. tte— with life changing illnesses. tt-e ttte— with life changing illnesses. it's like basically we mustn't say— it's like basically we mustn't eoy ttot— it's like basically we mustn't say that having— it's like basically we mustn't say that having a cold as a ttyeteot— say that having a cold as a physical illness— say that having a cold as a physical illness is the same as tovtng— physical illness is the same as tovtng eonee— physical illness is the same as having cancer or— physical illness is the same as having cancer or heart disease. ttete— having cancer or heart disease. ttete te— having cancer or heart disease. ttete te o— having cancer or heart disease. there is a spectrum. i am really i there is a spectrum. i am really t tetott— there is a spectrum. i am really i remain concerned— there is a spectrum. i am really i remain concerned that if you tove— i remain concerned that if you tove o— i remain concerned that if you have a diagnosis— i remain concerned that if you have a diagnosis of psychosis, schizophrenia— have a diagnosis of psychosis, schizophrenia ,_ have a diagnosis of psychosis, schizophrenia , mania, it is schizophrenia, mania, it is etttt— schizophrenia, mania, it is etttt tte— schizophrenia, mania, it is still the case— schizophrenia, mania, it is still the case that your life is etottenet — still the case that your life is shortened on— still the case that your life is shortened on average by 15 to 20 yeo— shortened on average by 15 to 20 ye so— shortened on average by 15 to 20 ye so vten— shortened on average by 15 to 20 years. so when people say, have we note— years. so when people say, have we made progress— years. so when people say, have we made progress ,_ years. so when people say, have we made progress , we will have we made progress, we will have note— we made progress, we will have note tnogneee— we made progress, we will have made progress where that ttognoete— made progress where that diagnosis does not significantly etottet— diagnosis does not significantly etotten yoot— diagnosis does not significantly shorten your life— diagnosis does not significantly shorten your life .— diagnosis does not significantly shorten your life . and we're a shorten your life. and we're a

tong— shorten your life. and we're a tong voy— shorten your life. and we're a tong voy ott— shorten your life. and we're a long way off from _ shorten your life. and we're a long way off from from reaching ttot— long way off from from reaching ttot etoge. — long way off from from reaching ttot etoge. ate— long way off from from reaching that stage. are you concerned otoot— that stage. are you concerned otoot tte— that stage. are you concerned about the availability of treatment? _ about the availability of treatment? g treatment? have you sought treatment? have you sought treatment yourself ? i haven't treatment yourself? i haven't sought treatment yourself? i haven't eoogtt eoogtt— 7 i haven't sought sought treatment myself . sought sought treatment myself. if i sought sought treatment myself. at t tttnt— sought sought treatment myself. if i think undoubtedly mental teottn— if i think undoubtedly mental health services— if i think undoubtedly mental health services are overstretched, there's a very ttgt — overstretched, there's a very ttgt tenont— overstretched, there's a very high demand for them . that high demand for them. that tetott— high demand for them. that tenont voe— high demand for them. that demand was accelerated by covid and demand was accelerated by covid ont tte— demand was accelerated by covid and the lockdowns._ demand was accelerated by covid and the lockdowns. there's lots of and the lockdowns. there's lots ot teotte— and the lockdowns. there's lots ot teotte vto— and the lockdowns. there's lots of people who are— and the lockdowns. there's lots of people who are managing a eontttton— of people who are managing a condition, had— of people who are managing a condition, had it— of people who are managing a condition, had it under control , te— condition, had it under control , te tt— condition, had it under control , te tt on— condition, had it under control , be it an eating— condition, had it under control , be it an eating disorder , be , be it an eating disorder, be it , be it an eating disorder, be tt on— , be it an eating disorder, be tt on onxtety— , be it an eating disorder, be it an anxiety disorder, be it tetneeeton— it an anxiety disorder, be it depression, who- it an anxiety disorder, be it depression, who have coping ettoetotee— depression, who have coping structures around this. so i tove— structures around this. so i tove on— structures around this. so i have an enormously supportive totty— have an enormously supportive tontty ont— have an enormously supportive family and friends. but if you etntt— family and friends. but if you etntt ovoy— family and friends. but if you strip away that— family and friends. but if you strip away that coping structure , if strip away that coping structure , tt yoo— strip away that coping structure , tt yoo neove— strip away that coping structure , if you remove people from eeetng— , if you remove people from eeetng ttet— , if you remove people from seeing their family , you remove seeing their family, you remove teotte— seeing their family, you remove teotte tton — seeing their family, you remove people from seeing their friends . it people from seeing their friends . tt voe— people from seeing their friends . tt tte— people from seeing their friends . it was the case— people from seeing their friends . it was the case that for some, tte— . it was the case that for some, tte vont— . it was the case that for some, the world crowded— . it was the case that for some, the world crowded in on them ogotn— the world crowded in on them ogotn ont— the world crowded in on them ogotn ont on— the world crowded in on them again and an illness they had ontet— again and an illness they had under control.— again and an illness they had under control. suddenly surged toet— under control. suddenly surged toet tnto— under control. suddenly surged back into their— under control. suddenly surged back into their lives. and that ontoottetty— back into their lives. and that undoubtedly is— back into their lives. and that undoubtedly is placing a pressure on— undoubtedly is placing a pressure on already stretched tentot— pressure on already stretched mental health _

pressure on already stretched mental health services . c mental health services. was it a etgn— mental health services. was it a etgn ot— mental health services. was it a etgn ot tte— mental health services. was it a sign of the times that perhaps the government did undercut the mental impact of the pandemic? obviously lots was made about protecting people and saving the nhs, but it's left a legacy, particularly among younger people, of huge amounts of anxiety, of depression . an they anxiety, of depression. an they talk about isn't— anxiety, of depression. an they talk about isn't it?— anxiety, of depression. an they talk about isn't it? i— {if/killing i“ an they talk about isn't it? i think tte— talk about isn't it? i think it eott— talk about isn't it? i think it eott ot— talk about isn't it? i think it's sort of parity equality tetveen— it's sort of parity equality between physical and mental teottn— between physical and mental teottt. t— between physical and mental health. i don't— between physical and mental health. i don't think mental teottn— health. i don't think mental teottt got— health. i don't think mental teottt got o— health. i don't think mental health got a look in during the tontente— health got a look in during the pandemic response . i think some pandemic response. i think some of pandemic response. i think some ot tte— pandemic response. i think some ot tte etott— pandemic response. i think some of the stuff around— pandemic response. i think some of the stuff around and targeted at of the stuff around and targeted ot ettttnen— of the stuff around and targeted at children, if- of the stuff around and targeted at children, if you— of the stuff around and targeted at children, if you go and see yoot— at children, if you go and see yoon gnonny— at children, if you go and see yoon gnonny, yoot— at children, if you go and see your granny, your killer was etntty— your granny, your killer was simply appalling. i mean, it was it simply appalling. i mean, it was tt voe— simply appalling. i mean, it was it was absolutely— simply appalling. i mean, it was it was absolutely appalling . and it was absolutely appalling. and teotte— it was absolutely appalling. and teotte neet— it was absolutely appalling. and teotte neet to— it was absolutely appalling. and people need to be— it was absolutely appalling. and people need to be held to oeeoont— people need to be held to account for— people need to be held to account for that , in my view. account for that, in my view. toot,— account for that, in my view. took; my— account for that, in my view. look, my views— account for that, in my view. look, my views on lockdown are not eeeet — look, my views on lockdown are not eeeet t— look, my views on lockdown are not secret. i spoke— look, my views on lockdown are not secret. i spoke against toettovn— not secret. i spoke against lockdown repeatedly . repeatedly. lockdown repeatedly. repeatedly. i lockdown repeatedly. repeatedly. t onet— lockdown repeatedly. repeatedly. i warned against— lockdown repeatedly. repeatedly. i warned against its

implications , as i warned how i warned against its— implications , as i warned how it implications, as i warned how it voott— implications, as i warned how it voott tntoet— implications, as i warned how it would impact people with mental teottt— would impact people with mental health conditions— would impact people with mental health conditions ,_ would impact people with mental health conditions , as i warned health conditions, as i warned tov— health conditions, as i warned tov tt— health conditions, as i warned tov tt voott— health conditions, as i warned how it would change our ottnooet— how it would change our approach. for— how it would change our approach. for example , to civil approach. for example, to civil tttetttee— approach. for example, to civil liberties and— approach. for example, to civil liberties and protest . and i liberties and protest. and i tttnt— liberties and protest. and i tttnt tn— liberties and protest. and i think in the- liberties and protest. and i think in the main , my warnings think in the main, my warnings tove— think in the main, my warnings tove teen— think in the main, my warnings have been borne— think in the main, my warnings have been borne out . obviously, have been borne out. obviously, i have been borne out. obviously, ttottet— have been borne out. obviously, ttottet to— have been borne out. obviously, i failed to change— have been borne out. obviously, i failed to change the weather vtte— i failed to change the weather vttte tte— i failed to change the weather while the lockdowns were going on. while the lockdowns were going t— while the lockdowns were going t entttety— while the lockdowns were going on. i entirely agree. the first toettovn— on. i entirely agree. the first lockdown of— on. i entirely agree. the first lockdown of 6— on. i entirely agree. the first lockdown of 6 to— on. i entirely agree. the first lockdown of 6 to 7 weeks was necessary. none— lockdown of 6 to 7 weeks was necessary. none of us knew what we toetng. — necessary. none of us knew what we were facing. but— necessary. none of us knew what we were facing. but once it teeoee— we were facing. but once it teeonne tte — we were facing. but once it became, the information became ovottotte— became, the information became available that— became, the information became available that this— became, the information became available that this disease tongety— available that this disease largely targeted the elderly and ttoee— largely targeted the elderly and ttoee vttt— largely targeted the elderly and those with underlying health eonttttone— those with underlying health. conditions._done conditions. we could have done tttnge— conditions. we could have done tttnge ton— conditions. we could have done things far more— conditions. we could have done things far more humanely. ' i things far more humanely. and otvtooety— things far more humanely. and obviously you've— things far more humanely. and obviously you've done- things far more humanely. and obviously you've done very well actually in your area of hertfordshire . how bad do you hertfordshire. how bad do you think they were for the conservatives? so i'm in south hertfordshire.— conservatives? so i'm in south hertfordshire. i— 7 so i'm in south hertfordshire. i bought a london and hertfordshire. i bought a london ont tte— hertfordshire. i bought a london ont tte nog— hertfordshire. i bought a london and the m25 is— hertfordshire. i bought a london and the m25 is our— hertfordshire. i bought a london and the m25 is our border. i tttnt— and the m25 is our border. i tttnt tte— and the m25 is our border. i think the conservatives could tove— think the conservatives could tove tone— think the conservatives could have done worse— think the conservatives could have done worse and labour could tove— have done worse and labour could tove eoott— have done worse and labour could have could have— have done worse and labour could have could have done better . it have could have done better. it vten-t— have could have done better. it voen-t o— have could have done better. it voen-t o gneot— have could have done better. it wasn't a great night for the conservatives— wasn't a great night for the conservatives by any stretch of the imagination.— conservatives by any stretch of the imagination. you think they eoott— the imagination. you think they eoott tove— the imagination. you think they could have done— the imagination. you think they could have done well, could could have done well, we could tove—

could have done well, we could ttve—vte- could have done well, we could have—we could.- could have done well, we couldi have _we could. and have done worse. we could. and tetote— have done worse. we could. and tetote-tte— have done worse. we could. and perhaps the ructions of perhaps after the ructions of toet— perhaps after the ructions of toet-vttt— perhaps after the ructions of last _with three - perhaps after the ructions of last with three prime last october with three prime tttntetee— last october with three prime tttntetene tn— last october with three prime ministers in the— last october with three prime ministers in the space of 50 toye— ministers in the space of 50 toyelteeetve— ministers in the space of 50 days,.deserve to- ministers in the space of 50 days, deserve to do worse. days, we deserve to do worse. ant— days, we deserve to do worse. ant t— days, we deserve to do worse. ant t tttnt— days, we deserve to do worse. and i think labour could have tone— and i think labour could have tone tettee— and i think labour could have done better. of— and i think labour could have done better. of labour done better. of course, labour tot— done better. of course, labour tot nony— done better. of course, labour had many successes over the ntgnt— had many successes over the ntgtt ont— had many successes over the ntgtt ont ve— had many successes over the night and we had many upsets and tottonee— night and we had many upsets and tottotee ,— night and we had many upsets and tottotee , tot— night and we had many upsets and tottotee , tot t— night and we had many upsets and failures , but i don't— night and we had many upsets and failures , but i don't think the failures, but i don't think the conservatives— failures, but i don't think the conservatives are— failures, but i don't think the conservatives are out of the tonntng— conservatives are out of the nonntng eoe— conservatives are out of the running come the next general eteetton— running come the next general eteetton ,— running come the next general election , which— running come the next general election , which i— running come the next general election , which i suspect will election, which i suspect will be election, which i suspect will te tn— election, which i suspect will te tn tte— election, which i suspect will be in the autumn— election, which i suspect will be in the autumn of next year. ant— be in the autumn of next year. ant tn— be in the autumn of next year. ant tn not— be in the autumn of next year. and i'm not standing in that genetot— and i'm not standing in that general election— and i'm not standing in that general election standing. ' “ti general election standing. and tell general election standing. and tett-vty.— general election standing. and tell-why, because- general election standing. and tell why, because that's not tell us why, because that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the rishi sunak the future of rishi sunak government. that's the future of rishi sunak government . that's absolutely government. that's absolutely not-teeooee- government. that's absolutely not-because i- government. that's absolutely. not-because i announced not the case because i announced i not the case because i announced t-teovtng— not the case because i announced i-leaving parliament- not the case because i announced i leaving parliament in i was leaving parliament in tettoony— i was leaving parliament in tettooty ot— i was leaving parliament in february of last— i was leaving parliament in february of last year. so tettooty— february of last year. so february 20th,- february of last year. so february 20th, 22, i felt that i'd february 20th, 22, i felt that tt tone— february 20th, 22, i felt that tt tone tt— february 20th, 22, i felt that i'd done it for— february 20th, 22, i felt that i'd done it for 18— february 20th, 22, i felt that i'd done it for 18 years. then tt— i'd done it for 18 years. then tt ye — i'd done it for 18 years. then no, 17 years. then- i'd done it for 18 years. then no, 17 years. then it looks like tn — no, 17 years. then it looks like tn gotng— no, 17 years. then it looks like tn gotng to— no, 17 years. then it looks like tn gotng to to— no, 17 years. then it looks like i'm going to do it— no, 17 years. then it looks like i'm going to do it for 19.5 yeote— i'm going to do it for 19.5 yeone ont— i'm going to do it for 19.5 years and i've— i'm going to do it for 19.5 years and i've always been clear yoove— years and i've always been clear yoove got— years and i've always been clear yoove got to— years and i've always been clear you've got to want— years and i've always been clear you've got to want to be a tenet— you've got to want to be a tenet ot— you've got to want to be a member of parliament 100, 110. ant— member of parliament 100, 110. ant no— member of parliament 100, 110. ant t— member of parliament 100, 110. and now i love— member of parliament 100, 110. and now i love being in parliament— and now i love being in parliament and legislating in totttonent— parliament and legislating in parliament, but— parliament and legislating in parliament, but i'm struggling

to tttng— parliament, but i'm struggling to tntng ttot— parliament, but i'm struggling to bring that same level of enetgy— to bring that same level of enengy to— to bring that same level of enengy to my— to bring that same level of energy to my constituency duties . ant— energy to my constituency duties . ant tetng— energy to my constituency duties . ant tetng o— energy to my constituency duties . and being a member of parliament— . and being a member of parliament isn't about me. it's otoot— parliament isn't about me. it's otoot ny— parliament isn't about me. it's about my constituents . and they about my constituents. and they teeenve— about my constituents. and they teeenve o— about my constituents. and they teeenve o ettny— about my constituents. and they deserve a shiny new member of totttonent— deserve a shiny new member of parliament who— deserve a shiny new member of parliament who will be 110% enthusiastic— parliament who will be 110% enthusiastic on— parliament who will be 110% enthusiastic on their behalf. ant— enthusiastic on their behalf. ant t— enthusiastic on their behalf. ant t tttnt— enthusiastic on their behalf. and i think that's really tntonont— and i think that's really tntonont .— and i think that's really important . we all we all have a important. we all we all have a toet— important. we all we all have a toet toy— important. we all we all have a toet toy tn— important. we all we all have a last day in parliament. almost all last day in parliament. almost ott ot— last day in parliament. almost ott ot oe— last day in parliament. almost all of us, unless— last day in parliament. almost all of us, unless you die in eentee— all of us, unless you die in eenvtee. tot— all of us, unless you die in service. but we— all of us, unless you die in service. but we all all have a toet— service. but we all all have a toet toy— service. but we all all have a toet toy tn— service. but we all all have a last day in parliament and i ton-t— last day in parliament and i ton-t vont— last day in parliament and i don't want to _ last day in parliament and i don't want to outstay my welcome as don't want to outstay my welcome oe ton— don't want to outstay my welcome oe tot oe— don't want to outstay my welcome oe tot oe ny— don't want to outstay my welcome as far as my constituent ants are concerned. _ as far as my constituent ants are concerned. . ”ti; as far as my constituent ants are concerned. a ”ti; are concerned. are you also worried about the direction politics is going in? members of atonement— politics is going in? members of totttonent tty— politics is going in? members of parliament try really— c is gtit “g a7 members of parliament try really hard to do the parliament try really hard to do tte ttgtt— parliament try really hard to do tte ttgtt-t— parliament try really hard to do tte ttgtt-t-tt- parliament try really hard to do the right-i-it is. the right thing. i think it is otten— the right thing. i think it is often difficult- the right thing. i think it is often difficult to do the right tntng.— often difficult to do the right tttng. vte— often difficult to do the right thing. we have— often difficult to do the right thing. we have a very demanding oottenee— thing. we have a very demanding oottenee ont— thing. we have a very demanding audience and we— thing. we have a very demanding audience and we have very tenonttng— audience and we have very demanding constituents and i toet— demanding constituents and i roet tttnt— demanding constituents and i roet tttnt tte— demanding constituents and i just think it's a— demanding constituents and i just think it's a it's a difficult- just think it's a it's a difficult place. i would find it teotty— difficult place. i would find it really difficult- difficult place. i would find it really difficult now to recommend- really difficult now to recommend somebody come here really difficult now to _ recommend somebody come here who is recommend somebody come here who te eoeeeettng— recommend somebody come here who te eoeeeettng tn— recommend somebody come here who is succeeding in their— recommend somebody come here who is succeeding in their 30s and ate. — is succeeding in their 30s and ate. soy,— is succeeding in their 30s and toe. soy, yoo-ne— is succeeding in their 30s and 40s. say, you're a— is succeeding in their 30s and 40s. say, you're a fantastically eoeeeeetot— 40s. say, you're a fantastically successful lawyer— 40s. say, you're a fantastically successful lawyer or accountant. i successful lawyer or accountant. t voott — successful lawyer or accountant. t voott eoy— successful lawyer or accountant. tvoott eoy to— successful lawyer or accountant. i would say to them, you're going— i would say to them, you're

gotng to— i would say to them, you're going to leave— i would say to them, you're going to leave your successful ttoettee— going to leave your successful ttoettee to — going to leave your successful practise to enter— going to leave your successful practise to enter the uncertain vont— practise to enter the uncertain vontt ot— practise to enter the uncertain world of politics. _ practise to enter the uncertain world of politics. and when you teove— world of politics. and when you leave politics,— world of politics. and when you leave politics, it— world of politics. and when you leave politics, it will be very ttttteott— leave politics, it will be very difficult to - leave politics, it will be very difficult to pick- leave politics, it will be very difficult to pick up your career vtee— difficult to pick up your career vtee yoo— difficult to pick up your career where you left. _ difficult to pick up your career where you left. i— difficult to pick up your career where you left. i think we've professionalised_ where you left. i think we've professionalised politics, and i tttnt— professionalised politics, and i tttnt ttot-e— professionalised politics, and i think that's a— professionalised politics, and i think that's a mistake. i think a think that's a mistake. i think o tot— think that's a mistake. i think o tot ot— think that's a mistake. i think o tot ot ny— think that's a mistake. i think a lot of my colleagues are eotreetet— a lot of my colleagues are subjected to _ a lot of my colleagues are subjected to unbearable and indefensible— subjected to unbearable and indefensible levels of abuse by teotte— indefensible levels of abuse by teotte .— indefensible levels of abuse by teotte . tow,— indefensible levels of abuse by people . now, most of our people. now, most of our constituents— people. now, most of our constituents are lovely, warm teotte.— constituents are lovely, warm people. whatever their politics. but people. whatever their politics. not ttene — people. whatever their politics. not ttene te— people. whatever their politics. but there is a— people. whatever their politics. but there is a nasty arnie ontentetty— but there is a nasty arnie underbelly in— but there is a nasty arnie underbelly in most constituents is underbelly in most constituents te ot— underbelly in most constituents te ot totte— underbelly in most constituents is of quite thuggish , aggressive is of quite thuggish, aggressive teotte— is of quite thuggish, aggressive teotte vto— is of quite thuggish, aggressive people who feel— is of quite thuggish, aggressive people who feel that they can get ovoy— people who feel that they can get ovoy vttt— people who feel that they can get away with saying what they like get away with saying what they tte ont — get away with saying what they like and threatening what they like and threatening what they tte ont— like and threatening what they like and actually— like and threatening what they like and actually that is going to tete— like and actually that is going to deter further— like and actually that is going to deter further good people tton— to deter further good people from entering— to deter further good people from entering politics. but some of ttoee— from entering politics. but some of those people presumably are labour activists. i think some of them might be. i don't know who of them might be. i don't know vto ttey— of them might be. i don't know vto ttey — of them might be. i don't know vto ttey t— of them might be. i don't know who they are. i don't— gn i don't know who they are. i don't look too etoeety. — who they are. i don't look too etoeety. tn— who they are. i don't look too closely. i'm thinking about entttetene— closely. i'm thinking about criticisms of— closely. i'm thinking about criticisms of tories has come tton— criticisms of tories has come ttot—totoot- criticisms of tories has come. from—labour leader from the deputy labour leader teneett. — from the deputy labour leader herself. _rayner- from the deputy labour leader- herself. _rayner described

herself. angela rayner described the tories as scum that can't help the political environment , help the political environment, but it can't. we can all make ntetotee— but it can't. we can all make mistakes though. _ c tii“ c we can all make mistakes though. what i don't vont— mistakes though. what i don't wont to— mistakes though. what i don't wont to to— mistakes though. what i don't wont to to te— mistakes though. what i don't want to do is pile— mistakes though. what i don't want to do is pile in on angela or want to do is pile in on angela on onytoty. — want to do is pile in on angela on onytoty. vve— want to do is pile in on angela or anybody. we can all make ntetotee— or anybody. we can all make mistakes. god— or anybody. we can all make mistakes. god knows i've made toote— mistakes. god knows i've made toote ot— mistakes. god knows i've made loads of mistakes— mistakes. god knows i've made loads of mistakes in my parliament— loads of mistakes in my parliament career. final goeetton— parliament career. final goeetton on— parliament career. final question on housing, because i know you've written for conservative and you conservative home, and do you think the conservatives have built enough housing? i want to see housing built— built enough housing? i want to see housing built 24— cc ti; g “g7’ i want to see housing built 24 hours a day,— see housing built 24 hours a toy, even— see housing built 24 hours a day, seven days— see housing built 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days of day, seven days a week, 365 days ot tte— day, seven days a week, 365 days ot tte yeote— day, seven days a week, 365 days of the year? does— day, seven days a week, 365 days of the year? does that mean you wont— of the year? does that mean you wont o— of the year? does that mean you wont o totte— of the year? does that mean you want a noble concrete over the eoontnyettee— want a noble concrete over the countryside? it— want a noble concrete over the countryside? it is— want a noble concrete over the countryside? it is a— want a noble concrete over the countryside? it is a noble all tooee— countryside? it is a noble all houses are built— countryside? it is a noble all houses are built on what was once countryside.— houses are built on what was once countryside. i mean, this ttot— once countryside. i mean, this nonsense that people think that ttet— nonsense that people think that ttett tooee— nonsense that people think that their house wasn't— nonsense that people think that their house wasn't built on what was once a green— their house wasn't built on what was once a green field and a toteet— was once a green field and a toneet, o— was once a green field and a forest, a meadow— was once a green field and a forest, a meadow. was once a green field and a forest, a meadow . all of our forest, a meadow. all of our tooee— forest, a meadow. all of our houses are built— forest, a meadow. all of our houses are built on countryside . ant— houses are built on countryside . ant vten— houses are built on countryside . ant vten yoo— houses are built on countryside . and when you move into a eonnontty— . and when you move into a community that— . and when you move into a community that does not buy you the community that does not buy you tte ntgtt— community that does not buy you tte ntgtt to— community that does not buy you tte ntgtt to etot— community that does not buy you the right to stop other people tovtng— the right to stop other people tovtng-ttot— the right to stop other people moving that community at a moving into that community at a tote— moving into that community at a totet gag,— moving into that community at a totet gag, ve— moving into that community at a later date, we have— moving into that community at a later date, we have to build toe — later date, we have to build toe ion— later date, we have to build homes. an inescapable fact homes. it's an inescapable fact . ant— homes. it's an inescapable fact . ant t— homes. it's an inescapable fact . ant ttoet— homes. it's an inescapable fact . ant troet get— homes. it's an inescapable fact . and i just get incredibly

frustrated— . and i just get incredibly frustrated by— . and i just get incredibly frustrated by people who've got so frustrated by people who've got eo toet— frustrated by people who've got eo noet ont— frustrated by people who've got so much and they— frustrated by people who've got so much and they tend to be ottet— so much and they tend to be otten teotte— so much and they tend to be older people like— so much and they tend to be older people like me being so ungenerous to— older people like me being so ungenerous to the next geneotton— ungenerous to the next geneotton. - ungenerous to the next generation. ”ti; ungenerous to the next- generation. when you're talking about your own nimby, tory voter as well. in broxbourne, we tttnt— as well. in broxbourne, we tttn-t eeetn— as well. in broxbourne, we didn't seem to— in broxbourne, we didn't seem to suffer from tnttvtt— didn't seem to suffer from nimbyism. we— didn't seem to suffer from nimbyism. we returned all our ntne— nimbyism. we returned all our eoonett— nimbyism. we returned all our nine council seats. we were tetenttng— nine council seats. we were defending-built- nine council seats. we were defending built houses, defending. we've built houses, ve-ve-ttote— defending. we've built houses, ve-ve-ttote .— defending. we've built houses, we've-flats . we- defending. we've built houses, we've flats . we promote we've built flats. we promote tte— we've built flats. we promote the interests— we've built flats. we promote the interests of— we've built flats. we promote the interests of young people in ttoxtootne— the interests of young people in broxbourne look,— the interests of young people in broxbourne look, the young teotte— broxbourne look, the young teotte toottng— broxbourne look, the young people looking to get on the tooetng— people looking to get on the housing ladder— people looking to get on the housing ladder gave up the most tottng— housing ladder gave up the most tottng tte— housing ladder gave up the most during the cowo— housing ladder gave up the most during the covid lockdowns. they tte— during the covid lockdowns. they tte one— during the covid lockdowns. they were the ones who— during the covid lockdowns. they were the ones who weren't ottovet— were the ones who weren't ottovet to — were the ones who weren't allowed to . into - were the ones who weren't allowed to into work. they allowed to go into work. they vtee-vto— allowed to go into work. they vete-vto-toi allowed to go into work. theyi were _who .to stay allowed to go into work. they- were _who .to stay at were the ones who had to stay at tone,— were the ones who had to stay at tone, otten— were the ones who had to stay at home, often working in cramped nentet— home, often working in cramped nentet ttote— home, often working in cramped rented flats to _ home, often working in cramped rented flats to keep the elderly eote — rented flats to keep the elderly eote ont — rented flats to keep the elderly eote ont toet— rented flats to keep the elderly safe and just. you're not necessarily— safe and just. you're not necessarily rich because you're org,— necessarily rich because you're on, tot— necessarily rich because you're on, tot tt— necessarily rich because you're on, tot tt te— necessarily rich because you're old, but it is a- necessarily rich because you're old, but it is a fact— necessarily rich because you're old, but it is a fact that the otte— old, but it is a fact that the ottet yoo— old, but it is a fact that the otten yoo get,— old, but it is a fact that the older you get, the more likely you— older you get, the more likely yoo-to— older you get, the more likely you-to become— older you get, the more likely you-to become a- older you get, the more likely you to become a homeowner. you are to become a homeowner. ant— you are to become a homeowner. ant-tttnt— you are to become a homeowner. and-think, given- you are to become a homeowner. and think, given the and i just think, given the eoenttteee— and i just think, given the sacrifices youngsters made sacrifices our youngsters made tottng— sacrifices our youngsters made tottng tte— sacrifices our youngsters made during the cowo— sacrifices our youngsters made during the covid lockdowns, oetootty— during the covid lockdowns, oetootty o— during the covid lockdowns, actually a national drive to gtve— actually a national drive to gtve ttet— actually a national drive to give them the— actually a national drive to give them the homes that they teeetve, — give them the homes that they teeetve, .ve — give them the homes that they deserve,-we can- give them the homes that they deserve, we can have people deserve, yes, we can have people ttvtng— deserve, yes, we can have people ttvtng tn— deserve, yes, we can have people ttvtng tn eoetot— deserve, yes, we can have people living in social housing, tooetng— living in social housing, housing, association houses. ttot-e—

housing, association houses. that's fantastic— housing, association houses. that's fantastic .— housing, association houses. that's fantastic . those are that's fantastic. those are totee— that's fantastic. those are tonee oe— that's fantastic. those are homes as well. - that's fantastic. those are homes as well. but giving people the homes as well. but giving people tte ottonontty— homes as well. but giving people tte ottonontty to— homes as well. but giving people the opportunity to buy a home, get on— the opportunity to buy a home, get on tte— the opportunity to buy a home, get on the housing ladder, that is get on the housing ladder, that te o— get on the housing ladder, that is a fundamentally a conservative- is a fundamentally a conservative thing to do. and we etoott— conservative thing to do. and we etoott te— conservative thing to do. and we should be doing— conservative thing to do. and we should be doing it— conservative thing to do. and we should be doing it. conservative thing to do. and we should be doing it . should be doing it. thank you veny— should be doing it. thank you very much for your time today. thank you . that was sir charles thank you. that was sir charles walker. i'll be back next week at 930. up next, here's michael portillo .

good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo . sunday with michael portillo. with two hours of good conversation - with two hours of good conversation ,- with two hours of good conversation , arts and conversation, arts and entertainment, ethical dilemmas and entertainment, ethical dilemmas ont o— entertainment, ethical dilemmas ont o ot— entertainment, ethical dilemmas and a sense of the— entertainment, ethical dilemmas and a sense of the ridiculous , and a sense of the ridiculous, too.— and a sense of the ridiculous, too. tottng— and a sense of the ridiculous, too. eontng ot— and a sense of the ridiculous, too. coming up, we examine last ntgtt-e— too. coming up, we examine last night's eurovision— too. coming up, we examine last night's eurovision song contest

etovoonog— night's eurovision song contest extravaganza in— night's eurovision song contest extravaganza in liverpool. was