away. good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show on this sunny sunday. lovely to have your— sunny sunday. lovely to have your company. — sunny sunday. lovely to have your company. we— "y 33, lovely to have your company. we have m; 25 lovely to have your company. we have got m; 25; lovely to have your company. we have got an absolutely— your company. we have got an absolutely bumper show. we're going— absolutely bumper show. we're going to— absolutely bumper show. we're going to soon— absolutely bumper show. we're going to start with bob seely, the going to start with bob seely, tho-mp— going to start with bob seely, tho-mp for— going to start with bob seely, the-mp for the- going to start with bob seely, the mp for the isle of the tory mp for the isle of wight— the tory mp for the isle of wight-oo- the tory mp for the isle of wight-to oo- the tory mp for the isle of wight to be talking the tory mp for the isle of- wight-to be talking to wight is going to be talking to us wight is going to be talking to uo—tory. - us about all things tory. i'm ago— us about all things tory. i'm ago going— us about all things tory. i'm oioo going io— us about all things tory. i'm also going to be— us about all things tory. i'm also going to be joined by iooion— also going to be joined by- iooion—inio robert jenrick. you'll love this one, course, because he's one, of course, because he's innignoiion— one, of course, because he's immigration minister. the immigration minister. have the eovonnnoni— immigration minister. have the government-in- immigration minister. have the government in tackling government failed in tackling iogoi— government failed in tackling iogoi-iiiogoi— government failed in tackling legal illegal migration .7 and legal and illegal migration? and i'll legal and illegal migration? and iii no— legal and illegal migration? and in in asking— legal and illegal migration? and i'll be asking him— legal and illegal migration? and i'll be asking him those very iongn— i'll be asking him those very iongn-.— i'll be asking him those very iongn-. oo- i'll be asking him those very. iongn-. oo-ioo tough questions, as in not too iong— tough questions, as in not too iongliino— tough questions, as in not too iongliino .— tough questions, as in not too longltime . now,— tough questions, as in not too long time . now, charlotte long a time. now, charlotte monon— long a time. now, charlotte nichols,-labouri long a time. now, charlotte. nichols,-labour mp long a time. now, charlotte- nichols,-labour mp for nichols, who's the labour mp for iioningion— nichols, who's the labour mp for warrington north,— nichols, who's the labour mp for warrington north, is going to be inning— warrington north, is going to be ioiiing io— warrington north, is going to be ioiiing o no— warrington north, is going to be talking to me about her own party's— talking to me about her own pony-o ioiinno— talking to me about her own party's failure over sexual misconduct— party's failure over sexual misconduct in— party's failure over sexual misconduct in parliament. and in — misconduct in parliament. and in going— misconduct in parliament. and in going io— misconduct in parliament. and in going io io— misconduct in parliament. and i'm going to be joined by molly kinney.— i'm going to be joined by molly kimono-ino— i'm going to be joined by molly kingsley. the founder of i'm going to be joined by molly kingcampaign the founder of i'm going to be joined by molly kingcampaign groupfounder of i'm going to be joined by molly kingcampaign group us1der of i'm going to be joined by molly kingcampaign group us forr of i'm going to be joined by molly kingcampaign group us for them , the campaign group us for them, nio— the campaign group us for them, who-revealed— the campaign group us for them, who-revealed was- the campaign group us for them, who revealed was spied on who it was revealed was spied on by ino— who it was revealed was spied on by the government— who it was revealed was spied on by the government for campaigning against school closures-the- campaigning against school closures the pandemic . closures during the pandemic. it's closures during the pandemic. in o— closures during the pandemic. in o gnooi— closures during the pandemic. it's a great telegraph scoop and i'll-discussing— it's a great telegraph scoop and i'll discussing with that i'll be discussing it with that n— i'll be discussing it with that -. ciniy- i'll be discussing it with that mum . cindy jackson, once mum later. cindy jackson, once inning— mum later. cindy jackson, once inning-nosi- mum later. cindy jackson, once dubbed most surgically dubbed britain's most surgically onnonooi— dubbed britain's most surgically enhanced woman— dubbed britain's most surgically enhanced woman , is going to be enhanced woman, is going to be ioking— enhanced woman, is going to be ioking on— enhanced woman, is going to be ioning on ino— enhanced woman, is going to be taking on the plastic surgery

ininoin. — taking on the plastic surgery ininoin. ani— taking on the plastic surgery industry. and she's got a book out industry. and she's got a book oni—eoi- out called how not to get monon— out called how not to get botched—to. out called how not to get. botched—to find out called how not to get- botched._to find out botched. we're going to find out now— botched. we're going to find out non—ioionoi- botched. we're going to find out how-botched a- botched. we're going to find out how botched a little how not to get botched a little ioion— how not to get botched a little noon-snow. — how not to get botched a little later- show. i please . later in the show. so please ony— later in the show. so please nay-ion— later in the show. so please nay-ion oii- later in the show. so please stay -for all of - later in the show. so please stay for all of that stay tuned for all of that iooono— stay tuned for all of that because - got - stay tuned for all of that. because-gotlpacked because we've got a packed show oni— because we've got a packed show and ion— because we've got a packed show and ioio oni— because we've got a packed show and lots and lots— because we've got a packed show and lots and lots to— because we've got a packed show and lots and lots to get innongn.— and lots and lots to get through-all,- and lots and lots to get through. all, let's through. first of all, let's insi— through. first of all, let's- inoi—innongn just have a little run through of just have a little run through oi-inoni— just have a little run through of-front-now.- just have a little run through of front now. we'll of the front pages now. we'll soon— of the front pages now. we'll soon-singin- of the front pages now. we'll start sunday telegraph start with the sunday telegraph . iii— start with the sunday telegraph . iii nonin— start with the sunday telegraph . iii nonio io— start with the sunday telegraph . pm wants to cut— start with the sunday telegraph . pm wants to cut tax cut before ino— . pm wants to cut tax cut before ino oiooiion— . pm wants to cut tax cut before the election. can't— . pm wants to cut tax cut before the election. can't come a nnonnoni— the election. can't come a moment ioo— the election. can't come a moment too soon, you might argue . oi— moment too soon, you might argue . oi nigni— moment too soon, you might argue . oi nigni ii— moment too soon, you might argue on nigni i no— moment too soon, you might argue . or might it be a— moment too soon, you might argue . or might it be a little too ino— . or might it be a little too into on— . or might it be a little too late for rishi _ . or might it be a little too late for rishi sunak ? the sunday late for rishi sunak? the sunday iinoo— late for rishi sunak? the sunday iinoo goos— late for rishi sunak? the sunday times goes with— late for rishi sunak? the sunday times goes with ukraine's new waonn— times goes with ukraine's new wapons piea— times goes with ukraine's new wapons piea io— times goes with ukraine's new weapons plea to hit back at insin— weapons plea to hit back at iwiin. ine— weapons plea to hit back at putin. the observer over not a very— putin. the observer over not a very attractive _ putin. the observer over not a very attractive headline for the wine— very attractive headline for the prime minister.— very attractive headline for the prime minister. stupid sunak cowo— prime minister. stupid sunak covid scheme— prime minister. stupid sunak covid scheme to be focus of wins— covid scheme to be focus of ingwiw. — covid scheme to be focus of virus inquiry. this is about his eap— virus inquiry. this is about his eai owi— virus inquiry. this is about his eai owi io— virus inquiry. this is about his eat out to help— virus inquiry. this is about his eat out to help out scheme the wai— eat out to help out scheme the iiaii on— eat out to help out scheme the mail on sunday— eat out to help out scheme the mail on sunday goes with iaiow-s— mail on sunday goes with labour's class— mail on sunday goes with labour's class war on middle nniiain— labour's class war on middle nniiain .— labour's class war on middle nniiain . ine— labour's class war on middle britain . the sun— labour's class war on middle britain . the sun on sunday britain. the sun on sunday snows— britain. the sun on sunday siiows witn— britain. the sun on sunday sticks with the _ britain. the sun on sunday sticks with the schofield story. woiiw-s— sticks with the schofield story. noiiw-s ieiiing— sticks with the schofield story. holly's telling speech on phil swggesiing— holly's telling speech on phil swggesiing inap— holly's telling speech on phil suggesting that when she goes pack— suggesting that when she goes pack io— suggesting that when she goes pack io ine— suggesting that when she goes back to the show— suggesting that when she goes back to the show tomorrow, she's going— back to the show tomorrow, she's going io — back to the show tomorrow, she's going io give— back to the show tomorrow, she's going io give a— back to the show tomorrow, she's going to give a heartfelt speech

apons— going to give a heartfelt speech. apons—nappenei about everything that's happened --sundav— about everything that's happened .-sunday express— about everything that's happened . sunday express goes with, . the sunday express goes with, as does— . the sunday express goes with, as does ine— . the sunday express goes with, as does the telegraph , the as does the telegraph, the awwnnni— as does the telegraph, the awwnnni sax— as does the telegraph, the autumn tax cut— as does the telegraph, the autumn tax cut story, autumn tax swis— autumn tax cut story, autumn tax owis io — autumn tax cut story, autumn tax owis io neai— autumn tax cut story, autumn tax cuts to heal britain. _ autumn tax cut story, autumn tax cuts to heal britain. it says ine— cuts to heal britain. it says ine saniaw— cuts to heal britain. it says the sunday mirror again , another the sunday mirror again, another iaiioii— the sunday mirror again, another iapioii going— the sunday mirror again, another tabloid going for— the sunday mirror again, another tabloid going for the holly wiiiowgniw— tabloid going for the holly willoughby story . auntie holly willoughby story. auntie holly peei— willoughby story. auntie holly peep piop— willoughby story. auntie holly peep piop po— willoughby story. auntie holly beeb plot to poach her from itv appen— beeb plot to poach her from itv after turmoil. _ beeb plot to poach her from itv after turmoil. well,— beeb plot to poach her from itv after turmoil. well, to discuss all after turmoil. well, to discuss aii inap— after turmoil. well, to discuss aii inap ani— after turmoil. well, to discuss all that and more, i'm delighted to all that and more, i'm delighted po pe— all that and more, i'm delighted po pe ioinei— all that and more, i'm delighted io pe ioinei py— all that and more, i'm delighted to be joined by nick owen, former— to be joined by nick owen, iorner ppc— to be joined by nick owen, former bbc and— to be joined by nick owen, former bbc and itv presenter wionoias. — former bbc and itv presenter nicholas. lovely— former bbc and itv presenter nicholas. lovely to see you this morning— nicholas. lovely to see you this morning .— nicholas. lovely to see you this morning . there's— nicholas. lovely to see you this morning . there's lots to get. morning. there's lots to get. morning.— morning. there's lots to get. iiorning. ves— morning. there's lots to get. morning. yes kind of separated it morning. yes kind of separated ii inro— morning. yes kind of separated i no war.— morning. yes kind of separated it into, what, a— morning. yes kind of separated it into, what, a four different ap— it into, what, a four different wp po— it into, what, a four different men up to this— it into, what, a four different men up to this weekend. let's spari— men up to this weekend. let's span wipn— men up to this weekend. let's start with the— men up to this weekend. let's start with the first of those men-sonar- start with the first of those men-sonar .- start with the first of those men sunak. he's off to men rishi sunak. he's off to america.— men rishi sunak. he's off to america. massive— men rishi sunak. he's off to america. massive trip to the wnipe— america. massive trip to the white house.— america. massive trip to the white house. it's all very inporpanp— white house. it's all very inporianp .— white house. it's all very important. it's- white house. it's all very important. it's going to be under— important. it's going to be under pressure— important. it's going to be under pressure perform. nick under pressure to perform. nick tell under pressure to perform. nick peiilaii— under pressure to perform. nick remap-ii.— under pressure to perform. nick peiilaii-ip. - under pressure to perform. nick tell-all-it. well,- under pressure to perform. nick tell-all-it. well, yesi tell us all about it. well, yes . pere— tell us all about it. well, yes . pore we— tell us all about it. well, yes , here we go. a british prime minister united minister goes to the united states guest and the special relations will be talked of again, isn't it funny, all british prime ministers get seduce by the white house? i always think in right from margaret thatcher onwards they go there and all. and of course

, american presidents are only interested really in promoting , american presidents are only inteinterests ally in promoting , american presidents are only inteinterests of! in promoting , american presidents are only inteinterests of! in united ng the interests of the united states. surprise, surprise. yes. and i always these and i always feel these occasions bit well, a bit occasions are a bit well, a bit creepy we're always told creepy when we're always told that so much will come out of it. warm will be said , but it. warm words will be said, but so ever seems to come out so little ever seems to come out . this case, it is . but in this case, it is important, very important for sunak after all the brexit. one of the thing about brexit arguments was that we were going to well with trade deals to do so well with trade deals with america. have there been any them all? fact any sign of them at all? in fact , can see, joe biden , as far as i can see, joe biden as left leaning a president of the america as we're going to get quite the contrary, seems to be looking at other parts of the world interested in world much more interested in focusing on what's happening, probably in china and probably rightly in china and taiwan all that sort of taiwan and all that sort of thing, with other thing, and dealing with other allies than dealing so allies than dealing with us. so warm words will be said. do you remember , oh, joe biden came remember, oh, joe biden came over for the northern ireland thing recently . well, he came thing recently. well, he came over a holiday for over from a holiday for a houday over from a holiday for a holiday he tagged a trip to holiday and he tagged a trip to northern ireland. on the back of it. in it. he stayed one day in norman— it. he stayed one day ini northern -think, it. he stayed one day in- northern -think, and northern ireland, i think, and pen— northern ireland, i think, and

pen wenp— northern ireland, i think, and then went southern, went northern ireland, i think, and theto vent southern, went northern ireland, i think, and theto ireland southern, went northern ireland, i think, and theto ireland for southern, went northern ireland, i think, and theto ireland for three ern, went northern ireland, i think, and theto ireland for three daysvent off to ireland for three days apper— off to ireland for three days ape-so— off to ireland for three days apper-so a- off to ireland for three days after-so a great- off to ireland for three days. after-so a great friend off to ireland for three days- after-so a great friend of after that. so a great friend of this country, not really , and this country, not really, and he keeps comments keeps on making comments about the friday agreement being the good friday agreement being compromised brexit compromised by the brexit negotiations. he's not a of negotiations. he's not a fan of the negotiations. he's not a fan of we winisor— g he's not a fan of the windsor framework. so aopwaiiw— the windsor framework. so actually rishi _ the windsor framework. so actually rishi sunak might have actually rishi sunak might have a pip— actually rishi sunak might have a pip oi— actually rishi sunak might have a bit of.uphill_ actually rishi sunak might have a bit of uphill struggle here a bit of an uphill struggle here wipn— a bit of an uphill struggle here win—pap- with the us president, but opiioaiiw— with the us president, but opiioaiiw ne— with the us president, but optically he, as- with the us president, but optically he, as he pitches a pasepaii. — optically he, as he pitches a baseball. ah— optically he, as he pitches a baseball. ah yes,- optically he, as he pitches a baseball. ;25 2; optically he, as he pitches a baseball. "�* ;25 2; optically he, as he pitches a baseball. ;2~5r 2; baseball. ah yes, very. as you say, apparently it's 60 foot. you're supposed to pitch throw, let's use the word properly now. rishi sunak a cricketer and a good one. apparently but whether he can actually handle the pitch as well, i just don't know. doesit as well, i just don't know. does it get nato opportunity? of course. i wonder— does it get nato opportunity? of course. i wonder if— does it get nato opportunity? of course. i wonder if he gets any praopise— course. i wonder if he gets any praopise in— course. i wonder if he gets any practise in secret. _ course. i wonder if he gets any practise in secret. can you imagine— practise in secret. can you imagine nin— practise in secret. can you imagine him trying to pitch paus— imagine him trying to pitch balls across— imagine him trying to pitch balls across the— imagine him trying to pitch balls across the white house iawne— balls across the white house iawne-i— balls across the white house lawn?-i know. - balls across the white house lawn? i know. 22 c balls across the white house- lawn?-i know. he'd like to lawn? yeah i know. he'd like to pitch balls at, but perhaps we'll to that. well, indeed we'll come to that. well, indeed lwep— we'll come to that. well, indeed .iweii-nowe— we'll come to that. well, indeed .-well,-move on- we'll come to that. well, indeed .-well,-move on to- we'll come to that. well, indeed .-well,-move on to who| . so. well, let's move on to who he . so. well, let's move on to who ne—po— . so. well, let's move on to who ne—po pipon- . so. well, let's move on to who he_to pitch balls. . so. well, let's move on to whoj he_to pitch balls at, he might want to pitch balls at, pese— he might want to pitch balls at, because there— he might want to pitch balls at, because there are— he might want to pitch balls at, because there are two different peopie— people you could argue. the fire—weir- people you could argue. thei first—keir starmer. first of whom is keir starmer. wnap— first of whom is keir starmer. what-interesting- first of whom is keir starmer. what interesting about what i find interesting about poiaw-s— what i find interesting about ioiaw-s papers— what i find interesting about today's papers is we finally nave— today's papers is we finally nave a— today's papers is we finally nave a son— today's papers is we finally have a sort policy platform have a sort of policy platform iron— have a sort of policy platform iron-iapowr— have a sort of policy platform from labour party. that's from the labour party. that's peen— from the labour party. that's

been .criticism. - from the labour party. that's been criticism. yes not been the criticism. yes not enowgn— been the criticism. yes not enough substance, many enough substance, too many sownipipes— enough substance, too many sownipipes .— enough substance, too many soundbites . let's just go soundbites. let's just go inrowgn— soundbites. let's just go inrowgn a— soundbites. let's just go through a few- soundbites. let's just go through a few of the headlines. iapowr— through a few of the headlines. labour would— through a few of the headlines. labour would spend millions on new-on— labour would spend millions on new-oh, quangos,- labour would spend millions on new oh, quangos, yes . new quangos. oh, quangos, yes. iapowr-s— new quangos. oh, quangos, yes. iapowr-s porin— new quangos. oh, quangos, yes. labour's north-oil- new quangos. oh, quangos, yes. labour's north oil plan will labour's north sea oil plan will cosp— labour's north sea oil plan will oosp poope— labour's north sea oil plan will cost 45,000 jobs.— labour's north sea oil plan will cost 45,000 jobs. industry warns iapowr— cost 45,000 jobs. industry warns iapowr are— cost 45,000 jobs. industry warns labour are under— cost 45,000 jobs. industry warns labour are under increasing pressure wave— labour are under increasing pressure. have they got their sprapegw— pressure. have they got their siraiegw rigni— pressure. have they got their siraiegw rigni 7— pressure. have they got their strategy right ? well, let's strategy right? well, let's spari— strategy right? well, let's span wipn— strategy right? well, let's start with the— strategy right? well, let's start with the quango story, wnion— start with the quango story, wnion is— start with the quango story, wnion is in— start with the quango story, which is in the— start with the quango story, which is in the telegraph. nick we which is in the telegraph. nick we were— which is in the telegraph. nick we were promised, weren't we, by pavin— we were promised, weren't we, by paid caneron— we were promised, weren't we, by paid caneron a— we were promised, weren't we, by david cameron a bonfire of the quangos— david cameron a bonfire of the quangos.-.— david cameron a bonfire of the guangos-. we- david cameron a bonfire of the quangos, . we don't quangos, indeed. we don't neoessariiw— quangos, indeed. we don't necessarily like— quangos, indeed. we don't necessarily like arm's length ponies— necessarily like arm's length bodies because— necessarily like arm's length bodies because it seems to most peopie— bodies because it seems to most peopie-waw— bodies because it seems to most people way passing the people as a way of passing the puck— people as a way of passing the puck ani— people as a way of passing the puck and pne— people as a way of passing the buck and the government not paring— buck and the government not taking responsibility. what's iapour-s— taking responsibility. what's labour's—well,| labour's plan then? well, apparenpiw— labour's plan then? well, apparently wants load apparently labour wants to load more quangos . just let's get the more quangos. just let's get the figures right. first of more quangos. just let's get the figures right . first of all, figures right. first of all, there are already 295, as you call them , arm's length bodies, call them, arm's length bodies, quangos, most people think of there to sort of advise government to hold a lot of meetings , i would say. and meetings, i would say. and apparently what labour want to do is produce load more of do is produce a load more of them. i just. them. do you mind if i just. i couldn't resist. i've got a list of them if we're to of them here. if we're to believe what's in the papers. of course believe what's

course we always believe what's in the. oh, course we do. in the. oh, of course we do. yeah. apparently yeah. okay. here here apparently are labour are the new ones that labour would some them would like, or some of them in the money the for office value for money skills. a network of skills. england a network of climate export hubs, community payback boards, national cladding taskforce , illicit cladding taskforce, illicit finance taskforce , supply chain finance taskforce, supply chain taskforce, lots more like that. what i'd like to know is how nuan— what i'd like to know is how nuon pne— what i'd like to know is how much the office— what i'd like to know is how much the office for value for money— much the office for value for money is— much the office for value for money is going— much the office for value for money is going to cost. i mean, it money is going to cost. i mean, ip-ne— money is going to cost. i mean, ip-ne po— money is going to cost. i mean, ip-ne po pe- money is going to cost. i mean, it-me to be slightly. it sounds to me to be slightly counterintuitive, _ it sounds to me to be slightly counterintuitive, the office for puigep— counterintuitive, the office for budget responsibility already , budget responsibility already, ion-p— budget responsibility already, ion-twee — budget responsibility already, don't we? yes,— budget responsibility already, don't we? yes, but- budget responsibility already, don't we? “25 budget responsibility already, don't we? 25 don't we? yes, but the point about this is labour are or about all this is labour are or beginning to see signs of what labour will come to the electorate with to try win electorate with to try and win the election . and you know, the next election. and you know, i help thinking camilla, i can't help thinking camilla, in this situation that the tory government finds itself in labour would be rather better government finds itself in labsayinguld be rather better government finds itself in labsaying veryie rather better government finds itself in labsaying very little ier better government finds itself in labsaying very little reallyter off saying very little really keep british dumb. the ming vase theory, the ming vase theory just let them demolish themselves. you just let them demolish themselves . you stand back and themselves. you stand back and you nop— themselves. you stand back and you noi saw— themselves. you stand back and you noi say very— themselves. you stand back and you not say very much.- you stand back and you not say very much. although i you not say very much. although i-pne— you not say very much. although i-the election- you not say very much. although i the election draws i think as the election draws nearer, questions— i think as the election draws nearer, questions are going to be nearer, questions are going to pe aspen— nearer, questions are going to be asked about— nearer, questions are going to be asked about costing of poiioies— be asked about costing of poiioies .— be asked about costing of poiioies . as— be asked about costing of policies . as i— be asked about costing of policies . as i mean, that story policies. as i mean, that story apoup— policies. as i mean, that story apoup pne— policies. as i mean, that story about the idea—

policies. as i mean, that story about the idea that the north sea— about the idea that the north sea-pian— about the idea that the north pea-pian nignp- about the idea that the north sea plan might cost 45,000 sea oil plan might cost 45,000 iops. — sea oil plan might cost 45,000 iops. aiso— sea oil plan might cost 45,000 iops. aiso we— sea oil plan might cost 45,000 jobs. also we put— sea oil plan might cost 45,000 jobs. also we put repeatedly put snaiow— jobs. also we put repeatedly put shadow ministers— jobs. also we put repeatedly put shadow ministers under pressure. wow— shadow ministers under pressure. wow muon— shadow ministers under pressure. wow nuon is— shadow ministers under pressure. how much is this— shadow ministers under pressure. how much is this all costing? they— how much is this all costing? inew see— how much is this all costing? inew po— how much is this all costing? they seem to have spent the winiiaii— they seem to have spent the windfall tax— they seem to have spent the windfall tax about ten times. were — windfall tax about ten times. they're talking— windfall tax about ten times. they're talking about non—dom spapus— they're talking about non—dom status removal— they're talking about non—dom status removal ,_ they're talking about non—dom status removal , generating status removal, generating piiiions— status removal, generating billions. but— status removal, generating billions. but clearly not enough piiiions. — billions. but clearly not enough piiiions. so— billions. but clearly not enough billions. so it's— billions. but clearly not enough billions. so it's difficult to know— billions. so it's difficult to know whether— billions. so it's difficult to know whether they can afford any of pneir— know whether they can afford any oi ineir pieiges— know whether they can afford any of their pledges .— know whether they can afford any of their pledges . well, indeed. of their pledges. well, indeed. but of their pledges. well, indeed. pup ion-p— of their pledges. well, indeed. but don't forget,— of their pledges. well, indeed. but don't forget, this- but don't forget, this government again, this government again, this government tax. government a windfall tax. that's where the windfall tax has this government has come from. this government raising corporation tax and so on. might they're in on. so you might say they're in a taxes before a race to raise taxes before they're in race to try and cut they're in a race to try and cut taxes or appear to so. taxes or appear to do so. well, the conservatives are talking about cutting tax, but the newspapers are talking about bofis newspapers are talking about boris johnson. so newspapers are talking about borisjohnson. so we'll newspapers are talking about boris johnson. so we'll ask wnap-s— boris johnson. so we'll ask what's boris— boris johnson. so we'll ask what's boris up— boris johnson. so we'll ask what's boris up to- "" so we'll ask what's boris up to then? so gop— what's boris up to then? so goi pan— what's boris up to then? so we've got dan hodges writing in the we've got dan hodges writing in we naii— we've got dan hodges writing in the mail. boris— we've got dan hodges writing in the mail. boris has— we've got dan hodges writing in the mail. boris has no interest in the mail. boris has no interest iraoooun-p- the mail. boris has no interest in-accountlhis. in an honest account of his aspions— in an honest account of his. aspions—oniw actions during covid. he only wanps— actions during covid. he only wanps po— actions during covid. he only wants to embarrass sunak. this islstory— wants to embarrass sunak. this islsporw apoup— wants to embarrass sunak. this is story about obviously the is a story about obviously the former— is a story about obviously the former prime— is a story about obviously the former prime minister giving his wnapsppp—po- whatsapp messages over to baroness-, who's. whatsapp messages over to baroness , who's chairing baroness hallett, who's chairing the baroness hallett, who's chairing .h.-,_ baroness hallett, who's chairing pne-. pwpassing- baroness hallett, who's chairing the , bypassing the the inquiry, bypassing the capinep— the inquiry, bypassing the cabinet office— the inquiry, bypassing the cabinet office . he and his cabinet office. he and his

aiiies— cabinet office. he and his allies seem— cabinet office. he and his allies seem to— cabinet office. he and his allies seem to be suggesting inap— allies seem to be suggesting inap pne— allies seem to be suggesting that the reason— allies seem to be suggesting that the reason rishi sunak opposes— that the reason rishi sunak opposes anis— that the reason rishi sunak opposes this is— that the reason rishi sunak opposes this is because rishi sunap— opposes this is because rishi sunap nas— opposes this is because rishi sunak has got— opposes this is because rishi sunak has got something to hide in pis— sunak has got something to hide in nis own— sunak has got something to hide in his own whatsapp messages. inieei— in his own whatsapp messages. inieei — in his own whatsapp messages. inieei i— in his own whatsapp messages. indeed i mean,— in his own whatsapp messages. indeed i mean, it's— in his own whatsapp messages. indeed i mean, it's .- in his own whatsapp messages. indeed " g i,:g».;g; in his own whatsapp messages. indeed " g $222 20 indeed i mean, it's. where do you start? first of all, boris can't be damaged any further. perhaps impossible to damage boris, so he doesn't really seem to care what messages get handed over to the inquiry and some of them are on a phone that's locked anyway. so on. but locked anyway. and so on. but you're there this sort you're right, there is this sort of sinister theory going around that it's really all about boris attacking his successor and he's attacking his successor and he's attacking and the attack, if it comes, will be the famous eat out to eat out to save, eat out to help out, eat out to help out. that was the expression, wasn't it? where you could get 50% your restaurant 50% off your your restaurant bill being heavily criticised . bill being heavily criticised. this was in the right in the middle of covid get middle of covid trying to get people back to work in the restaurant industry and so on and have cost a lot more and might have cost a lot more lives as say. is lives. as people say. that is actually denied . it must be actually denied. it must be careful, must, must said careful, it must, must be said the office say the the cabinet office say the figures don't tally one with

another, sound another, but it does sound pretty also it might pretty damaging. also it might expose manoeuvring when it expose his manoeuvring when it comes ousting boris because comes to ousting boris because there are some party that there are some in the party that still will be blaming him come 2024 don't win 2024 if they don't win the election . yeah, absolutely. election. yeah, absolutely. absolutely-. yeah.- election. yeah, absolutely. i absolutely-. yeah. let's absolutely right. yeah. let's move on to what— absolutely right. yeah. let's move on to what king- 3 yeah. let's move on to what king charles 2 yeah. let's move on to what king charles is up po. — move on to what king charles is up po. an.— move on to what king charles is up o in yes.— move on to what king charles is up to. ah, yes, the— move on to what king charles is up to. ' " ;25 2 well, up to. ah, yes, the king. well, you were— up to. ah, yes, the king. well, you were surprised— up to. ah, yes, the king. well, you were surprised by- up to. ;25 2 well, you were surprised by this trip to you were surprised by this trip po-peoause- to romania because he's only iooussei— to romania because he's only iooussei on— to romania because he's only focussed on european countries so far.— focussed on european countries so far. nasn-p— focussed on european countries so far, hasn't he,— focussed on european countries so far, hasn't he, since he's peoe— so far, hasn't he, since he's peoone-we-s- so far, hasn't he, since he's become he's been to become king? he's been to penin— become king? he's been to berlin. there's— become king? he's been to berlin. there's was a trip berlin. there's there was a trip to berlin. there's there was a trip po wonnern— berlin. there's there was a trip to northern ireland. to be fair. inere-s— to northern ireland. to be fair. there's—wider- there's a talk of a wider trip to there's a talk of a wider trip po ireianri— there's a talk of a wider trip to ireland, maybe , but also there's a talk of a wider trip to irelin d, maybe , but also there's a talk of a wider trip to irelin romania , but also there's a talk of a wider trip to irelin romania. but also there's a talk of a wider trip to irelin romania . yes. also there's a talk of a wider trip to irelin romania . yes. he's a being in romania. yes. he's a reiapiwe— being in romania. yes. he's a reiapiwe oi— being in romania. yes. he's a relative of well— being in romania. yes. he's a relative of well ,_ being in romania. yes. he's a relative of well , he's relative of well, he's appareniiw- relative of well, he's apparently he's a descendant of viad— apparently he's a descendant of war pne— apparently he's a descendant of vlad the impaler— apparently he's a descendant of vlad the impaler. apparently he's a descendant of vlad the impaler . 2 vlad the impaler. i'm not sure inap— vlad the impaler. i'm not sure that many sort of reigning monarchs would want to make too much of that fact, really, be much of that fact, really, to be absolutely honest . there we much of that fact, really, to be abcheah.' honest . there we much of that fact, really, to be abcheah. and est . there we much of that fact, really, to be abcheah. and he . there we much of that fact, really, to be abcheah. and he apparently we are. yeah. and he apparently loves to romania. a loves going to romania. it's a wild country and he loves nature and all this sort of things. and he can relax a bit. we see pictures of in short pictures of him in a short sleeve shirt sunglasses sleeve shirt and sunglasses going without the queen. going around without the queen. without queen solo visit. without the queen solo visit. yes, can imagine that. if he'd yes, i can imagine that. if he'd

said, fancy said, camilla, do you fancy a trip to romania? i can imagine her answer probably contained some interesting language. but. but the point of this is this. some interesting language. but. but the point of this is this . i but the point of this is this. i think next week or next week. this week, isn't it? this week, tuesday, probably . prince harry tuesday, probably. prince harry turns up in the uk to give evidence us the libel trials or the cases against newspapers that are going on. and lo and behold, his father , the king, is behold, his father, the king, is somewhere else. so every time prince harry has been over there, his father and his brother have been otherwise occupied, which is intriguing, isn't it? it is. it is a bit sad, isn't it? a bit sad? sad. do you think-sad- 552 g fl ' g 2“ sad. do you think sad overall? do you think it's sad overall? yesr_ do you think it's sad overall? wes|suppose— do you think it's sad overall? yes, suppose that's the that's yes, i suppose that's the that's the yes, i suppose that's the that's pne-apoup— yes, i suppose that's the that's ape-apoup ii- yes, i suppose that's the that's the-about it all- yes, i suppose that's the that's the about it all that the emotion about it all that is— the emotion about it all that is iusp— the emotion about it all that it's just there— the emotion about it all that it's just there was story it's just there was that story in-apoup— it's just there was that story in - about the - it's just there was that story. in-about the national in the week about the national iorpraip— in the week about the national portrait-revamp, - portrait gallery revamp, not ieapuring— portrait gallery revamp, not featuring that— portrait gallery revamp, not featuring that picture of wiiiian — featuring that picture of william and— featuring that picture of william and harry together. featuring that picture of william and harry together . and william and harry together. and i william and harry together. and i pooped— william and harry together. and i ioopeilip— william and harry together. and i looked it yesterday. i i looked at it yesterday. i inougnp.— i looked at it yesterday. i| thought,_like thought, gosh, that's like a pwgone— thought, gosh, that's like a pwgone-iipe- thought, gosh, that's like a pwgone-iipe a- thought, gosh, that's like a bygone like a another bygone era. it's like a another iiie. — bygone era. it's like a another iiie. inose— bygone era. it's like a another life. those two— bygone era. it's like a another life. those two being in the same portrait,— life. those two being in the same portrait, one quiet little ining— same portrait, one quiet little wing-son— same portrait, one quiet little thing sort sidebar thing that was sort of sidebar to thing that was sort of sidebar po pne— thing that was sort of sidebar po pne spon— thing that was sort of sidebar to the story that— thing that was sort of sidebar to the story that noticed to the story that i noticed somewhere is— to the story that i noticed somewhere is in one of the other

papers— papers mail on sunday. i think. or papers mail on sunday. i think. or-ip— papers mail on sunday. i think. or-ip-i— papers mail on sunday. i think. or-ip-i can-p— papers mail on sunday. i think. or it i can't remember or was it the i can't remember one telegraph was was one of them telegraph was was that actually up that charles actually giving up his welsh home? you know, he's got two houses all over the place or residences all over the place, giving up the place, actually giving up the one wales. i thought that one in wales. i thought that was rather doesn't rather intriguing. but doesn't he just rather intriguing. but doesn't he -just completely. he have to just completely iownsize — he have to just completely downsize _the he have to just completely- downsize _the moment he have to just completely- d0iseems_the moment he have to just completely- d0i seems to _the moment he have to just completely- d0i seems to be _the moment he have to just completely d0iseems to be living the moment he have to just completely d0iseems to be living inie moment he have to just completely d0i seems to be living in three ment he seems to be living in three iiiierenp— he seems to be living in three different properties, partially in winisor— different properties, partially in windsor partially in in windsor castle, partially in puspingnan — in windsor castle, partially in buckingham palace, partially in ciarenoe—i— buckingham palace, partially in clarence i appreciate clarence house. and i appreciate puopingnan— clarence house. and i appreciate puopingnan-is— clarence house. and i appreciate buckingham is being buckingham palace is being renowapep— buckingham palace is being renovated, - if _ buckingham palace is being renovated,-if he- buckingham palace is being renovated, if he wants to be renovated, but if he wants to be anis— renovated, but if he wants to be inis pini— renovated, but if he wants to be this kind-cost— renovated, but if he wants to be this kind-cost of— renovated, but if he wants to be this kind cost of living king this kind of cost of living king ani— this kind of cost of living king and-po— this kind of cost of living king and _to .value- this kind of cost of living king and _to .value for- this kind of cost of living king and to value for money and wants to be value for money ani— and wants to be value for money and—down- and have a slimmed down nonaronw— and have a slimmed down monarchy, having multiple homes and have a slimmed down monrgoing having multiple homes and have a slimmed down monrgoing t01ing multiple homes and have a slimmed down monrgoing to washiultiple homes and have a slimmed down monrgoing to washiultipwithimes isn't going to wash well with you. —goou.| isn't going to wash well withi wou- —goou. ip you. it doesn't look good. it doesn't doesn't look doesn't look good. doesn't look good. nicholas doesn't look good. doesn't look good . nicholas owens, thank you good. nicholas owens, thank you very— good. nicholas owens, thank you very nuan— good. nicholas owens, thank you very much indeed— good. nicholas owens, thank you very much indeed for— 22 nicholas owens, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this very much indeed forjoining me pnis-poweiw— very much indeed forjoining me inis—poweiw po- very much indeed forjoining me this-lovely to see- very much indeed forjoining me this lovely to see you. this morning. lovely to see you. iieasure— this morning. lovely to see you. measure-wow- this morning. lovely to see you. pleasure-now ,- this morning. lovely to see you. pleasure- now , from i this morning. lovely to see you. . pleasure-now , from the pleasure as ever. now, from the pay per pleasure as ever. now, from the pay per to the people's pay per view to the people's panel , olivia are panel, olivia utley are wonderful people's panel host is in bromley. olivia , what in bromley. olivia, what guespions— in bromley. olivia, what questions of— in bromley. olivia, what questions of the- 5 olivia, what questions of the panel got for our questions of the panel got for guesps— questions of the panel got for our guests today— questions of the panel got for our guests today bearing in mind i've our guests today bearing in mind i-we-wopen— our guests today bearing in mind i've-robert jenrick- our guests today bearing in mind i've robert jenrick down the i've got robert jenrick down the pine— i've got robert jenrick down the pine in— i've got robert jenrick down the pine in-a— i've got robert jenrick down the pine in-a pew— i've got robert jenrick down the line in a few minutes. line in just a few minutes. woun— line in just a few minutes. weiio. ves— line in just a few minutes. weiio. was. i— line in just a few minutes. hello. yes, i am—

line in just a few minutes. hello. yes, i am sonny- line in just a few minutes. hello. yes, i am sonny bromley beckenham. today. it's absolutely beautiful. we've had the church bells ringing behind us all morning. we're in the fantastic rendezvous cafe and i'm here with peter, who's the manager . peter, i'm here with peter, who's the manager. peter, thank you so much for having us here. it's a beautiful cafe, beautiful high street . and how how's business beautiful cafe, beautiful high street fornd how how's business beautiful cafe, beautiful high street for you ow how's business beautiful cafe, beautiful high street for you ? yeah,; business beautiful cafe, beautiful high street for you ? yeah, business; beautiful cafe, beautiful high street for you ? yeah, business is going for you? yeah, business is picking— going for you? yeah, business is picking up.— going for you? yeah, business is picking uplpeen— going for you? yeah, business is picking up.-been great.- picking up. it's been great. we-we— picking up. it's been great. we-we iusp— picking up. it's been great. we've just had— picking up. it's been great. we've just had a refurbishment. we've just had a refurbishment. we—a— we've just had a refurbishment. we—a ooupiel we were closed for a couple of weesp— we were closed for a couple of weeps—noping- we were closed for a couple ofi weeks,_hoping when we were closed for a couple of- weeks,_hoping when we weeks, so we were hoping when we opened—woun- weeks, so we were hoping when we opened _would.going| opened up, things would be going war.— opened up, things would be going weir-pne— opened up, things would be going well.-the summer- opened up, things would be going well. the summer coming well. and with the summer coming up ani— well. and with the summer coming up ani-weapner— well. and with the summer coming up and weather looking so up and the weather looking so perfect.— up and the weather looking so perieop-gop— up and the weather looking so perfect,-got-doors. perfect, we've got the doors open— perfect, we've got the doors open-gop— perfect, we've got the doors open-gop pne- perfect, we've got the doors open, got the terrace open open, we've got the terrace open ani— open, we've got the terrace open ani-pnings— open, we've got the terrace open ani-pnings-going- and it's all things are going weii— and it's all things are going well-moment. - and it's all things are going well moment. 525 and it's all things are going- well-moment. sounds like well at the moment. sounds like the going great and well at the moment. sounds like the been going great and well at the moment. sounds like the been packedig great and well at the moment. sounds like the been packed all|reat and well at the moment. sounds like the been packed all morning at it's been packed all morning at 8:00 so i am very 8:00 on a sunday. so i am very impressed. what challenges are you finding with the business at the so of course we know the moment? so of course we know how the prices have going how the prices have been going up, things, how the prices have been going up, costs things, how the prices have been going up, costs , things, how the prices have been going up, costs , but things, how the prices have been going up, costs , but it's things, how the prices have been going up, costs , but it's the things, how the prices have been going up, costs , but it's the samegs, how the prices have been going up, costs , but it's the same for the costs, but it's the same for everybody. there's not we everybody. there's not much we io— everybody. there's not much we io apoup— everybody. there's not much we can do about that,— everybody. there's not much we can do about that, but- ; 2 there's not much we can do about that, but we can iusp— can do about that, but we can gasp—ani- can do about that, but we can just—and that's. can do about that, but we can just we're and that's can do about that, but we can just we're aworking; can do about that, but we can just we're aworking hard what we're doing, working hard as a team and things are going weii— as a team and things are going weii-ip-s— as a team and things are going well-it's really- as a team and things are going well it's really great well so far. it's really great to well so far. it's really great po near— well so far. it's really great to hear-sunny- well so far. it's really great to hear sunny attitude on to hear lovely sunny attitude on a—so- to hear lovely sunny attitude on a—so inani- to hear lovely sunny attitude oni a—so ppani you to hear lovely sunny attitude on. a—so ppani you so to hear lovely sunny attitude on. a-peter,-so thank you so to hear lovely sunny attitude on. a-peter, and iso thank you so to hear lovely sunny attitude on. a-peter, and iso tyou: you so to hear lovely sunny attitude on. a-peter, and iso tyou againio much, peter, and thank you again for real for having us. it's a real pleasure thank you .

pleasure to be here. thank you. and this is our people's panel. this week, we've got justin , this week, we've got justin, we've got barney and we've got david. and without further ado, i'm going to press on because camilla is interviewing robert jenrick this morning. who is the man who is in charge of immigration in this country ? a immigration in this country? a pretty big at the moment . pretty big job at the moment. and justin , do you think that and justin, do you think that the government is doing enough to sort particularly the illegal immigration problem in this country , that small boats country, that small boats problem ? well, absolutely not. problem? well, absolutely not. it's problem? well, absolutely not. is spear— problem? well, absolutely not. it's clear that— problem? well, absolutely not. it's clear that we've— , well, absolutely not. it's clear that we've heard so many— it's clear that we've heard so many promises— it's clear that we've heard so many promises and so many plans. inperespingiy— many promises and so many plans. inperespingiy .— many promises and so many plans. interestingly , plans— many promises and so many plans. interestingly , plans that— many promises and so many plans. interestingly , plans that don't- interestingly, plans that don't have any dates . and my have any dates. and my experience of project management tells me that if you have a plan without dates, it never comes to fruition . an and it's exactly fruition. an and it's exactly what we're seeing ultimately to tackle the problem . i think tackle the problem. i think there's only really one solution. it's a solution. propose by previous prime ministers as well, and that is to leave the echr that seems to be the blocker. so if the conservative mps ran round the country, enjoy their job and

like to carry on in their job next year , may i suggest that next year, may i suggest that would be the solution. well, thank you very much , justin. i thank you very much, justin. i think there are a few conservative - think there are a few conservative mps in the party ani— conservative mps in the party and some— conservative mps in the party and some pretty— conservative mps in the party and some pretty level conservative mps in the party and some pretty-level i and some pretty high level who i pninp— and some pretty high level who i pninp-propapiy— and some pretty high level who i think probably agree with think would probably agree with you_-_ think would probably agree with you—. ani— think would probably agree with you_. and barney,- think would probably agree with you . and barney, how you about that. and barney, how apoup— you about that. and barney, how apoup you— you about that. and barney, how apoup you i— you about that. and barney, how apoui you i po— you about that. and barney, how about you ? do you— you about that. and barney, how about you ? do you feel like about you? do you feel like enougn— about you? do you feel like enougn is— about you? do you feel like enough is being— about you? do you feel like enough is being done? rishi sunap— enough is being done? rishi sunap is— enough is being done? rishi sunak is essentially staked his repupapion— sunak is essentially staked his repuiapion as— sunak is essentially staked his reputation as prime minister on fixing— reputation as prime minister on fixing anis— reputation as prime minister on fixing this problem . do you fixing this problem. do you ininp— fixing this problem. do you pninp ii— fixing this problem. do you pninp ii is— fixing this problem. do you think it is actually fixable ? think it is actually fixable? wep— think it is actually fixable? weii wen.— think it is actually fixable? weii weii. i— think it is actually fixable? well well, i do— think it is actually fixable? well well, i do have- think it is actually fixable? well well, i do have the i have sympathy for on the government. i think it's an illegal operation. i mean, it's highly sophisticated illegal operation. so that by its so controlling that by its nature very , very difficult. nature is very, very difficult. however what they have done so far seems to be window dressing, giving a large sums of money to the french, a little while ago to try and buy some sort of control it, which doesn't control on it, which doesn't seem to have made any difference. problem difference. and the problem doesn't seem changing . so doesn't seem to be changing. so they need to be seen to be doing something more than they're they need to be seen to be doing somettodaynore than they're they need to be seen to be doing somettoday becausei they're they need to be seen to be doing somettoday because ithey're they need to be seen to be doing somettoday because i think; they need to be seen to be doing somettoday because i think if doing today because i think if they don't, they will. when it comes to election time, it will become quite a bone of

contention as you say, it's a very, very contentious issue in the moment. and unless least the moment. and unless at least pney-re—ioing- they're seen to be doing sonepping— they're seen to be doing. something,_the something, it feels like the eieopion— something, it feels like the election is— something, it feels like the election is probably for something, it feels like the ele

cost of living crisis, perhaps- sending_of money that sending the amount of money that wereo-p— sending the amount of money that we're-to ukraine,- we're sending to ukraine, the amoun— we're sending to ukraine, the amount—is- amount of weapons is unsustainable in the long term. wnap— unsustainable in the long term. wnap-pninp— unsustainable in the long term. wnap-pninp e— unsustainable in the long term. what think ? where do you what do you think? where do you fall-question?— what do you think? where do you fall-question? well- fall on that question? well i ininp— fall on that question? well i pninp anis— fall on that question? well i think this country a very think this country has a very non— think this country has a very rion nispory— think this country has a very rich history of— think this country has a very rich history of standing up to aggressors— rich history of standing up to aggressors — rich history of standing up to aggressors. there- rich history of standing up to aggressors. p25; �* 5 rich history of standing up to aggressors. "r2:5; �* 5 igi aggressors. there was i in 1939 that we stood aggressors. there was 1 in 1939 that we stood up to when poland was invaded, and we stood up to the argentinian us and the falklands war and there are many, many more examples of that . so i think absolutely . so i think it's absolutely right support ukraine and, right to support ukraine and, you know, cost wise, i'm not convinced it's actually that costly to the country because let's face it, the technology that we're offering , the help that we're offering, the help we're offering is from a world class british defence companies. but create lots of jobs in this country , motty and more work in country, motty and more work in this country . country, motty and more work in this country. so i don't think it's that that that customer. thank you very much . we're it's that that that customer. - thank you very much . we're going thank you very much. we're going to thank you very much. we're going po nave— thank you very much. we're going po nave po— thank you very much. we're going po nave po wrap— thank you very much. we're going to have to wrap now.— thank you very much. we're going to have to wrap now. that's no pine— to have to wrap now. that's no pine pnis— to have to wrap now. that's no time this time,— to have to wrap now. that's no time this time, but— to have to wrap now. that's no time this time, but we'll come pack—pavin- time this time, but we'll come back—david in. time this time, but we'll come. back—david in the back to barney and david in the neop— back to barney and david in the npno—— back to barney and david in the next—now , back- back to barney and david in the next—now , back to. next section. for now, back to you—caniiial you in the studio. camilla, pnanp— you in the studio. camilla, pnanp you— you in the studio. camilla, thank you very— you in the studio. camilla, thank you very for that, thank you very much for that, opiwia. — thank you very much for that, olivia. _great- thank you very much for that, olivia. 2 2 olivia. some great questions there definitely put there that will definitely put to forget , if

to my guests. don't forget, if you want join people's you want to join the people's panel gbnews.uk. panel next week, it's gbnews.uk. no, it's not. it's gb news .com. we've changed address, we've changed our address, forward you can forward slash panel. and you can apply olivia just apply there now as olivia just said. i'm joined now by bob seely, the tory for the isle seely, the tory mp for the isle of wight. she's very kindly described you as the tory party's resident ukraine expert. bob, is what we want to bob, which is what we want to start conversation on. look start this conversation on. look how do you the war is how do you think the war is going and you foresee it going and how do you foresee it ending and how do you foresee it ? ending is another question enpireiy— ? ending is another question enpireiy wow— ? ending is another question entirely how the— 7’ ending is another question entirely how the war is going. opay. — entirely how the war is going. okay. igoing— entirely how the war is going. okay. igoing-pnei okay. it's going badly for the russians—that. okay. it's going badly for the. russians _that the russians, but the idea that the russians— russians, but the idea that the russians-is— russians, but the idea that the russians-is not- russians, but the idea that the russians is not true russians have lost is not true ani—inpo- russians have lost is not true ani—inpo pne- russians have lost is not truei and—into the idea and we're buying into the idea of russian— and we're buying into the idea of russian-to- and we're buying into the idea of russian to early of russian defeat to early russia— of russian defeat to early russia occupies 20% of russia still occupies 20% of ukraine— russia still occupies 20% of ukraine ani— russia still occupies 20% of ukraine and if— russia still occupies 20% of ukraine and if they keep osoupying— ukraine and if they keep occupying that for the next year or pwo. — occupying that for the next year or pwo. pnen — occupying that for the next year or two, then actually putin is winning.— or two, then actually putin is winning. so— or two, then actually putin is winning. so the— or two, then actually putin is winning. so the idea that pupin-s— winning. so the idea that putin's lost— winning. so the idea that putin's lost this war, i don't buy— putin's lost this war, i don't puy ani— putin's lost this war, i don't buy and actually, if putin's agenda— buy and actually, if putin's agenda is— buy and actually, if putin's agenda is po— buy and actually, if putin's agenda is to create a russia wnion— agenda is to create a russia wnion is— agenda is to create a russia which is viscerally hostile and angry— which is viscerally hostile and angry ani— which is viscerally hostile and angry and pupi— which is viscerally hostile and angry and full of— which is viscerally hostile and angry and full of hatred towards the angry and full of hatred towards pne wesp— angry and full of hatred towards pne wesp ani— angry and full of hatred towards the west and to— angry and full of hatred towards the west and to reshape russian iienpipy— the west and to reshape russian iienpipy .— the west and to reshape russian iienpipy . po— the west and to reshape russian iienpipy . po pe— the west and to reshape russian identity , to be profoundly identity, to be profoundly anti—western _ identity, to be profoundly anti—western , he's sort of doing anti—western, he's sort of doing guipe— anti—western, he's sort of doing guipe weii— anti—western, he's sort of doing guipe weii in— anti—western, he's sort of doing quite well in russia. now, that may— quite well in russia. now, that may api— quite well in russia. now, that may app oe—

quite well in russia. now, that may all come crashing down. his regime— may all come crashing down. his regime _crashing- may all come crashing down. his regime crashing down, regime may come crashing down, but regime may come crashing down, pup-yep— regime may come crashing down, pup-yep wnen— regime may come crashing down, pup-yep wnen pp- regime may come crashing down, but yet when it comes but it hasn't yet when it comes to_ukrainians,- but it hasn't yet when it comesi to_ukrainians, we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to ukrainians, we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to continueikrainians, we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to continue toainians, we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to continue to do ans, we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to continue to do so. we've but it hasn't yet when it comes to to continue to do so. but ve got to continue to do so. but pne— got to continue to do so. but pne-son— got to continue to do so. but pne-sorp op— got to continue to do so. but the sort of collapse of the big sort of collapse of russia— the big sort of collapse of ipussia op— the big sort of collapse of russia, of the— the big sort of collapse of russia, of the russian front , russia, of the russian front, espesiaiiy— russia, of the russian front, espeoiaiiy in— russia, of the russian front, especially in the— russia, of the russian front, especially in the south, it may not especially in the south, it may nop nappen— especially in the south, it may not happen because the russians are-in— not happen because the russians are-in in— not happen because the russians are-in in so— not happen because the russians are in in so different are dug in in so many different pines— are dug in in so many different iines pnap— are dug in in so many different lines that it's— are dug in in so many different lines that it's going to be very iippiouip— lines that it's going to be very difficult-through- lines that it's going to be very difficult through all lines that it's going to be very difficllines, through all lines that it's going to be very difficllines, although ugh all those lines, although the ukrainians— those lines, although the ukrainians ,_ those lines, although the ukrainians , you know, they've those lines, although the ukrrtheins , you know, they've those lines, although the ukrrthe motivation, ow, they've those lines, although the ukrrthe motivation, they'vei've those lines, although the ukrrthe motivation, they've got got the motivation, they've got the got the motivation, they've got pne—muon- got the motivation, they've got. the _ much better got the motivation, they've got the doing much better got the motivation, they've got the doing manoeuvre h better got the motivation, they've got the doing manoeuvre warfare , now at doing manoeuvre warfare, wnion—noiern- which is effectively modern warfare, combine warfare, where you combine spupp. — warfare, where you combine spupp. lpney-re — warfare, where you combine stuff. they're going to do stuff. so they're going to do weii— stuff. so they're going to do weii pnis— stuff. so they're going to do well this summer. i hope. how weii— well this summer. i hope. how weii is— well this summer. i hope. how weii is pne— well this summer. i hope. how well is the great— well this summer. i hope. how well is the great question. 22. well is the great question. you say prey-we— well is the great question. you say prey-we gop— well is the great question. you say they've got the— well is the great question. you say they've got the motivation andindeed say they've got the motivation and indeed they've got the spirit, they have the spirit, but do they have the weaponry? the eu or eu weaponry? has the eu or eu countries found wanting in countries been found wanting in supplying weapons to ukraine? probably yes, because the arnenans— probably yes, because the americans we're doing of americans we're doing lots of greap— americans we're doing lots of greap spuri— americans we're doing lots of great stuff there— americans we're doing lots of great stuff there and we the great stuff there and we led the way— great stuff there and we led the way-aopuaiiy— great stuff there and we led the way actually congratulations way and actually congratulations to way and actually congratulations po pne— way and actually congratulations po pne previous— way and actually congratulations to the previous boris government and to the previous boris government anilipussia-s— to the previous boris government and russia's government . but and to russia's government. but it's and to russia's government. but is pne— and to russia's government. but it's the americans— and to russia's government. but it's the americans that are simply/ing— it's the americans that arei suppm/insi—the it's the americans that are - suppm/insi—the kit supplying about 85% of the kit and pnap— supplying about 85% of the kit and that considering the puropean— and that considering the european union's economic size, our european union's economic size, apiiipy— european union's economic size, apiiipy po— european union's economic size, our ability to support the ukrainians,— our ability to support the ukrainians, i— our ability to support the ukrainians, i think has been preppy— ukrainians, i think has been preppy poor— ukrainians, i think has been preppy poor .— ukrainians, i think has been preppy poor. i— ukrainians, i think has been pretty poor. i mean, when i say

our-pairing— pretty poor. i mean, when i say our-talking-europe. pretty poor. i mean, when i say our talking europe as our i'm talking about europe as a—w-wee peen- a whole, i think we've been preppy— a whole, i think we've been pretty americans a whole, i think we've been- pretty _americans have pretty good. the americans have peen—i- pretty good. the americans have peen—i pninpl been pretty good. but i think purope-s— been pretty good. but i think europe's been— been pretty good. but i think europe's been-in- europe's been lacking in ewerypning— europe's been lacking in everything to everything has taken time to pone-ip-s— everything has taken time to pone-ip-s way- everything has taken time to come it's way too everything has taken time to- come _it's way too slow. come out and it's way too slow. i come out and it's way too slow. i woneur— come out and it's way too slow. i wneru wrap— come out and it's way too slow. i wonder what you _ come out and it's way too slow. i wonder what you made- come out and it's way too slow. i wonder what you made of- come out and it's way too slow. i wonder what you made of james cleverly, secretary i wonder what you made of james clevetweeting secretary i wonder what you made of james clevetweeting weektary i wonder what you made of james clevetweeting week that dodi tweeting in the week that ukraine's rightful place is in nato. agree with that? nato. do you agree with that? up to a point. i look, i just for to a point. i look, ijust for pnis— to a point. i look, ijust for me, this could— i look, ijust for me, this could escalate in a muon— me, this could escalate in a much more dangerous way. this wnepner— much more dangerous way. this war, whether it's— much more dangerous way. this war, whether it's attacking wespern — war, whether it's attacking western pipelines or or 70 inpernep— western pipelines or or 70 internet cables— western pipelines or or 70 internet cables or the five interconnectors, the electricity supply— interconnectors, the electricity suppiy pines— interconnectors, the electricity supply lines between us in purope— supply lines between us in purope . — supply lines between us in purope . anu— supply lines between us in europe . and i- supply lines between us in europe . 52 supply lines between us in europe . '52 europe. and i think that's a really credible threat for sure. yes, i do. and i also think we underestimate— yes, i do. and i also think we underestimate the potential for russia— underestimate the potential for ipussia po — underestimate the potential for ipussia po use— underestimate the potential for russia to use tactical nuclear apon lipi— russia to use tactical nuclear weapons-lain a— russia to use tactical nuclear weapons. did a study for the weapons. i did a study for the weripage— weapons. i did a study for the. heritage—months heritage institute a few months ago,— heritage institute a few months ago-pnere— heritage institute a few months ago-pnere-a- heritage institute a few months ago, there a recent ago, and there was a recent spuiy—a- ago, and there was a recent study—a retired. ago, and there was a recent. study—a retired us study put out by a retired us general. — study put out by a retired us general. - actually- study put out by a retired us general. actually the general. this is actually the likelihood— general. this is actually the likelihood of— general. this is actually the likelihood of this is likelihood of using this is higher— likelihood of using this is higher-we- likelihood of using this is higher we think. really? likelihood of using this is higheii we think. really? likelihood of using this is higheii mean,a think. really? likelihood of using this is higheii mean, that's;. really? likelihood of using this is higheii mean, that's horrifying. yeah. i mean, that's horrifying. it yeah. i mean, that's horrifying. n is— yeah. i mean, that's horrifying. it is horrifying. _ yeah. i mean, that's horrifying. it is horrifying. on— yeah. i mean, that's horrifying. it is horrifying. on the on the balance— it is horrifying. on the on the balance of— it is horrifying. on the on the balance of probabilities, the russians— balance of probabilities, the russians-won't- balance of probabilities, thei russians _won'tiit russians probably won't do it beaaee— russians probably won't do it because-chinese- russians probably won't do it because chinese and because of the chinese and meane— because of the chinese and indians effectively indians would effectively withdraw— indians would effectively withdraw their support significantly. but if putin significantly. but but if putin patin— significantly. but but if putin

putin always— significantly. but but if putin putin always escalates out of a easie— putin always escalates out of a haw— putin always escalates out of a haw ae— putin always escalates out of a crisis, how is he— putin always escalates out of a crisis, how is he going to escalate— crisis, how is he going to escalate out— crisis, how is he going to escalate out of- crisis, how is he going to escalate out of this crisis apart— escalate out of this crisis apaaa from — escalate out of this crisis apart from another round of mobilisation— apart from another round of mobilisation more artillery, mobilisation and more artillery, artillery— mobilisation and more artillery, more artillery and— mobilisation and more artillery, more artillery and more strikes on more artillery and more strikes an ky..— more artillery and more strikes an we ana— more artillery and more strikes on kyiv and other— more artillery and more strikes on kyiv and other ukrainian awee,— on kyiv and other ukrainian cities, which— on kyiv and other ukrainian cities, which isn't working , was cities, which isn't working, was cleverly— cities, which isn't working, was cleverly-make - cities, which isn't working, was cleverly make this cleverly naive to make this statement— cleverly naive to make this statement .— cleverly naive to make this statement , then think statement, then i think we stand— statement, then i think we- should—membership statement, then i think we- should_membership . should park nato membership. unatne— should park nato membership. ukraine-safe.— should park nato membership. ukraine safe. when it ukraine is safe. not when it becomes— ukraine is safe. not when it becomes a paper member of an anganteattan— becomes a paper member of an anganteattan .— becomes a paper member of an organisation , but— becomes a paper member of an organisation , but actually when organisation, but actually when it's organisation, but actually when tt-e-tne— organisation, but actually when it's-the ability— organisation, but actually when it's-the ability to- organisation, but actually when it's the ability to defend it's got the ability to defend tteett— it's got the ability to defend teen-gat- it's got the ability to defend itself, - got the - it's got the ability to defend itself, got the kit, itself, when it's got the kit, wnen— itself, when it's got the kit, wnen tt-e— itself, when it's got the kit, wnen tt-e gat— itself, when it's got the kit, when it's got-kit- itself, when it's got the kit, when it's got kit to defend when it's got the kit to defend tteett— when it's got the kit to defend itself-whether— when it's got the kit to defend itself, whether it's and itself, and whether it's and wnen— itself, and whether it's and wnen-tne- itself, and whether it's and when the military when it's got the military intellectual— when it's got the military intellectual firepower to use tnat— intellectual firepower to use tnat ttt— intellectual firepower to use tnat ttt tn— intellectual firepower to use that kit in the _ intellectual firepower to use that kit in the most effective way— that kit in the most effective way patente— that kit in the most effective way possible, which it is teanntng. — way possible, which it is teanntng. .— way possible, which it is learning. i mean, this that is tat— learning. i mean, this that is tat tnat— learning. i mean, this that is tat tnat te— learning. i mean, this that is but that is when— learning. i mean, this that is but that is when it's going to be but that is when it's going to te-tne— but that is when it's going to be-the severing- but that is when it's going to be the severing of be safe. the severing of undersea cables to explain be safe. the severing of unthe;ea cables to explain be safe. the severing of unthe viewership to explain be safe. the severing of unthe viewership and o explain be safe. the severing of unthe viewership and the .plain to the viewership and the listenership_ to the viewership and the listenership know are listenership know these are cantee— listenership know these are cables-carry- listenership know these are cables-carry all- listenership know these are cables carry all of our cables which carry all of our data. — cables which carry all of our data. .— cables which carry all of our data. i mean,— cables which carry all of our data. i mean, the- cables which carry all of our data. " ti; ”cl cables which carry all of our- data. i mean, the entire country is not complete hinckley disabled. yeah. and i know there has been some evidence of some degree of attempts to tamper , degree of attempts to tamper, but just tell us about the threat of that , particularly for threat of that, particularly for sure. there are 70 comms cables between— sure. there are 70 comms cables between us,— sure. there are 70 comms cables

between us, europe— ”c: there are 70 comms cables between us, europe and north anetta— between us, europe and north anetta ant— between us, europe and north america and elsewhere in the want.— america and elsewhere in the want. tnene— america and elsewhere in the world. there are— america and elsewhere in the world. there are three gas supply— world. there are three gas supply l“165-— world. there are three gas supply lines. one from norway, wnen— supply lines. one from norway, nnten te— supply lines. one from norway, nnten te a— supply lines. one from norway, which is a critical— supply lines. one from norway, which is a critical one, and tnene— which is a critical one, and tnene ae— which is a critical one, and there are five— which is a critical one, and there are five electricity interconnectors . if these are interconnectors. if these are eatataget— interconnectors. if these are sabotaged and _ interconnectors. if these are sabotaged and we're never going , tne— sabotaged and we're never going , tne ttea— sabotaged and we're never going ,i.. ttea tnat— sabotaged and we're never going , the idea that we're knowing, we're-know-thel we're going to know it's the tenant— we're going to know it's the russians—it,- we're going to know it's the- russians_it,lthink russians who've done it, i think is russians who've done it, i think te—tttttenttl is going to be really difficult. ant— is going to be really difficult. ant-cannot— is going to be really difficult. and-cannot go- is going to be really difficult. and cannot go war. you and you cannot go to war. you annot— and you cannot go to war. you annat eat— and you cannot go to war. you cannot say that— and you cannot go to war. you cannot say that we would have a mutant— cannot say that we would have a military response— cannot say that we would have a military response to this nttnant— military response to this without-sure. military response to this without sure it military response to this- without-sure it was the without being so sure it was the tenant— without being so sure it was the tneetane ant— without being so sure it was the russians. and you— without being so sure it was the russians. and you can suspect it. russians. and you can suspect tt. nat— russians. and you can suspect it. but unless— russians. and you can suspect it. but unless you've got that proof— it. but unless you've got that neat—te- it. but unless you've got that. neat—ts going proof, no government is going to tate— proof, no government is going to take-atten— proof, no government is going to take-action or- proof, no government is going to take action or decisive take military action or decisive atten— take military action or decisive action against— take military action or decisive action against the— take military action or decisive action against the russians enantt— action against the russians enantt an— action against the russians should our supply lines be cut. nat— should our supply lines be cut. butlany— should our supply lines be cut. butlanylthose_ should our supply lines be cut. butlanylthose 70- should our supply lines be cut. but any those 70 cables but if any of those 70 cables eat,— but if any of those 70 cables are cut, we will— but if any of those 70 cables are cut, we will start noticing it. are cut, we will start noticing t. -at— are cut, we will start noticing it. _of london- it. the city of london will stan— it. the city of london will start-tn— it. the city of london will etan-tt-cttyi start noticing it. the city of tendon— start noticing it. the city of london—can't. london will say, we can't operate— london will say, we can't operate-but- london will say, we can't. operate-but- have london will say, we can't- operate-but- have the operate. but do we have the capacity? we don't any capacity? no, we don't take any military russia. military action against russia. even to. when we even if we wanted to. when we do. but i even if we wanted to. when we ate nnt . mean— even if we wanted to. when we do. but i mean ,_ even if we wanted to. when we do. but i mean , in— even if we wanted to. when we do. but i mean , in the- cl" �*" : when we do. but i mean , in the great do. but i mean, in the great eeennen— do. but i mean, in the great eeennen at— do. but i mean, in the great scheme of things, would you want to scheme of things, would you want taltatng— scheme of things, would you want taltatna tnate— scheme of things, would you want to.doing that? .you- scheme of things, would you want to doing that? you may to be doing that? no. you may want— to be doing that? no. you may want-tann— to be doing that? no. you may want-yaan-tai want to up your support to unatne—i want to up your support to ukraine_. youi want to up your support to- ukraine_. you may ukraine still further. you may tnen— ukraine still further. you may tnen want— ukraine still further. you may tnen want ta— ukraine still further. you may then want to supply either sweeten— then want to supply either swedish gripen planes or f—i6s. but swedish gripen planes or f—i6s. nnt aaatn— swedish gripen planes or f—i6s. nnt agatn tan-e— swedish gripen planes or f—i6s. but again, you're getting into tnaneaetngtt— but again, you're getting into increasingly dangerous tenttatn— increasingly dangerous territory. our problem is we

want— territory. our problem is we want te— territory. our problem is we won't be able— territory. our problem is we won't be able to— territory. our problem is we won't be able to find it because nete-entn— won't be able to find it because we've-ship that- won't be able to find it because we've-ship that is- we've got one ship that is epeatattetng— we've got one ship that is specialising in— we've got one ship that is specialising in in defending undersea cables. and it's not yet— undersea cables. and it's not yet teen— undersea cables. and it's not yet been commissioned. ship. vean. — yet been commissioned. ship. vean. teat— yet been commissioned. ship. yeah. yeah we— yet been commissioned. ship. yeah. yeah we may have we may nave— yeah. yeah we may have we may nave ta— yeah. yeah we may have we may nave ta ta— yeah. yeah we may have we may have to it's being— yeah. yeah we may have we may have to it's being commissioned at tne— have to it's being commissioned at tne-ant— have to it's being commissioned at the - and .talk. at the moment and let's talk attent— at the moment and let's talk about getttng— at the moment and let's talk about getting a— at the moment and let's talk about getting a second one now we about getting a second one now ate-ant— about getting a second one now ne-ant ne- about getting a second one now we-and we have- about getting a second one now. we-and we have vessels about getting a second one now we can and we have vessels about getting a second one now we can do and we have vessels about getting a second one now we can do that.i we have vessels about getting a second one now we can do that. but have vessels about getting a second one now we can do that. but thisa vessels that can do that. but this is tne—ann- that can do that. but this is. the—our defence the problem with our defence epenttng— the problem with our defence spending-there's- the problem with our defence spending there's no spending is that there's no netnntanay— spending is that there's no. redundancy—and spending is that there's no- redundancy_and we redundancy in the system and we live redundancy in the system and we ttve tn— redundancy in the system and we ttve tn nuan— redundancy in the system and we live in much more— redundancy in the system and we live in much more dangerous ttnee— live in much more dangerous ttnee-tnat-e— live in much more dangerous times. that's been times. and that's been increasingly- times. and that's been increasingly last increasingly clear over the last year— increasingly clear over the last yean-. — increasingly clear over the last yean-. snaata- increasingly clear over the last| year-. should defence year of gdp. should defence spending truss spending be? i know truss advocated advocate advocated 3. would you advocate more ? i would advocate more than more? i would advocate more than we're—moment , but. we're doing at the moment, but it's we're doing at the moment, but tt-e-aneettan— we're doing at the moment, but it's-question of- we're doing at the moment, but it's question of how it's not a question of how much money—spentl money because you can spend that money— money because you can spend that naneaet—— money because you can spend that nnaneaet— we knew. money because you can spend that money as we know on money very badly as we know on paaet— money very badly as we know on procurement, where— money very badly as we know on procurement, where it's still a nattanat— procurement, where it's still a national scandal.— procurement, where it's still a national scandal. mean , some national scandal. i mean, some of national scandal. i mean, some at-tttttane— national scandal. i mean, some of-billions over- of our kit is billions over budget— of our kit is billions over tntget ant— of our kit is billions over budget and it— of our kit is billions over budget and it still doesn't work ant— budget and it still doesn't work ant attes— budget and it still doesn't work ant gttee yan— budget and it still doesn't work and gives you .of- budget and it still doesn't work and gives you of backache budget and it still doesn't work and hiringyou of backache budget and it still doesn't work and hiring problemsf backache budget and it still doesn't work and hiring problems iflackache budget and it still doesn't work and hiring problems if you'reie and hiring problems if you're tena— and hiring problems if you're using electorate. tilt." using the electorate. much aanttaenae— using the electorate. much confidence this, bob? confidence any of this, bob? no, not great. i mean, no, it's not great. i mean, teat,— no, it's not great. i mean, teat, tne— no, it's not great. i mean, look, the procurement and the non— look, the procurement and the non nae— look, the procurement and the mod has been— look, the procurement and the mod has been a— look, the procurement and the mod has been a scandal for years.— mod has been a scandal for years. ant— mod has been a scandal for years. ant ta— mod has been a scandal for years. and to ben wallis's nett— years. and to ben wallis's credit,-now- years. and to ben wallis's credit, now trying credit, he is now trying to tatte— credit, he is now trying to sane-tne- credit, he is now trying to solve _this stuff. solve this. but this stuff is nanan-t— solve this. but this stuff is nanan-t te- solve this. but this stuff is now-and be the- solve this. but this stuff is now and be the head of now being and be the head of nato— now being and be the head of ttto nttn— now being and be the head of nato with all— now being and be the head of nato with all of— now being and be the head of nato with all of this happening on nato with all of this happeningi an—atant nato with all of this happeningi

aniann—atant nato with all of this happening on own defences. about nato with all of this happening on own defences. "

was government that effectively was ven— government that effectively was was very hostile _ government that effectively was was very hostile to dissent and saying— was very hostile to dissent and was was saying it— was very hostile to dissent and was was saying it was listening to experts.— was was saying it was listening to experts. nnt— was was saying it was listening to experts. but the only experts it to experts. but the only experts tt nae— to experts. but the only experts it was listening— to experts. but the only experts it was listening to— to experts. but the only experts it was listening to were people tna— it was listening to were people who effectively— it was listening to were people who effectively like from tnpenat— who effectively like from imperial college , who were imperial college, who were anatnatnt— imperial college, who were producing extraordinarily questionable— producing extraordinarily questionable data, which has anae— questionable data, which has , t— questionable data, which has , tt ny— questionable data, which has since , if my understanding the since, if my understanding the tata— since, if my understanding the tata .— since, if my understanding the tata . teat,— since, if my understanding the tata . vean .— since, if my understanding the data . yeah, i mean, sorry if i'm data. yeah, i mean, sorry if i'm ever a minister— data. yeah, i mean, sorry if i'm ever a minister during a crisis, my ever a minister during a crisis, any nnt— ever a minister during a crisis, my first instinct— ever a minister during a crisis, my first instinct is— ever a minister during a crisis, my first instinct is to my first instinct is not to teen— my first instinct is not to listen anything put out by, listen to anything put out by, by tnpenat— listen to anything put out by, by imperial college. : by imperial college. should baroness hallett look at all this well everything else? this as well as everything else? look, baroness look, the problem with baroness hallett inquiry hallett i just think the inquiry is to cost about a quarter is going to cost about a quarter of is going of a billion and is going to achieve nothing. the of a billion and is going to achieve have nothing. the of a billion and is going to achieve have already)thing. the of a billion and is going to achieve have already delivered|e swedes have already delivered tnet— swedes have already delivered tnet-. — swedes have already delivered tnet-. n— swedes have already delivered their-. is this- swedes have already delivered their-. is this inquiryl their inquiry. is this inquiry just long? might just taking too long? we might not her. she says just taking too long? we might not needs her. she says just taking too long? we might not needs another her. she says just taking too long? we might not needs another three she says just taking too long? we might not needs another three years tys she needs another three years to assess data. three she needs another three years to assess data . three years assess all the data. three years and assess all the data. three years ant ty— assess all the data. three years ant by tnen— assess all the data. three years ant by ten .— assess all the data. three years and by then i can— three years and by then i can guarantee we want— and by then i can guarantee we nan-t—teeeani won't have learned the lesson. tne— the lesson, the big lesson is tne—tan-tel the lesson, the big lesson isi the—for-is not the big question for me is not why— the big question for me is not why tttn-t— the big question for me is not nnt tttn-t ne— the big question for me is not why didn't we go— the big question for me is not why didn't we go into lockdown eattet— why didn't we go into lockdown earlier-question- why didn't we go into lockdowni earlier-questionlwhy earlier? the big question is why did-different- earlier? the big question is why did _different with. did we expect different with taattann— did we expect different with lockdown in— did we expect different with lockdown in the first place? why— lockdown in the first place? wny ttt— lockdown in the first place? wny ttt ne— lockdown in the first place? why did we engage- lockdown in the first place? why did we engage in- lockdown in the first place? why did we engage in mass groupthink rather than . groupthink rather than. absolutely. and it may be teaanee— absolutely. and it may be because china— ' dint and it may be because china locked down, maybe teaanee— because italy locked down, maybe teaanee—tnel because we were spooked by the highly— because we were spooked by the highly questionable imperial

cattete—anti highly questionable imperiali cattege—ant , college stats that came out, than— college stats that came out, that ae— college stats that came out, which are now— college stats that came out, which are now being, as i say, tent— which are now being, as i say, being significantly questioned as being significantly questioned ae-tttett— being significantly questioned as likely accuracy. we as to their likely accuracy. we nat— as to their likely accuracy. we nat a— as to their likely accuracy. we had a pandemic— as to their likely accuracy. we had a pandemic response model. it's had a pandemic response model. tt-e tnat— had a pandemic response model. tt-e nnat tne— had a pandemic response model. it's what the swedes did. okay it's what the swedes did. okay tt aaete— it's what the swedes did. okay it costs them _ it's what the swedes did. okay it costs them a— it's what the swedes did. okay it costs them a lot— it's what the swedes did. okay it costs them a lot less. but even more importantly, we have gat— even more importantly, we have now got between— even more importantly, we have now got between 10 and 20,000 excess deaths,— now got between 10 and 20,000 excess deaths, 2020 every year. we nave— excess deaths, 2020 every year. we have teen— excess deaths, 2020 every year. we have been more— excess deaths, 2020 every year. we have been more swedish excess deaths, 2020 every year. " : yes, we have been more swedish. yes, we should. and i say that- we have been more swedish. yes, we should. and i say that as- we should. and i say that as someone who— we should. and i say that as someone who voted for the first aannte— someone who voted for the first aaante at— someone who voted for the first couple of lockdowns and only and teaane—taa- couple of lockdowns and only and teaatna—taa- couple of lockdowns and only and becain the—too- couple of lockdowns and only and becain the day. _too- couple of lockdowns and only and becain the day. �*ft�*ti; too couple of lockdowns and only and becain the day. �*ft�*ti; o couple of lockdowns and only and becain the day. �*ft�*ti; git late in the day. we've only got a left, bob, just let's a minute left, bob, just let's have the tories. a minute left, bob, just let's havtthey the tories. a minute left, bob, just let's havtthey win the tories. a minute left, bob, just let's havtthey win 2024?tories. can they win in 2024? yes. people talking about boris people are talking about boris still doorstep. no, still on the doorstep. no, they're i was out still on the doorstep. no, they're-i was out in. still on the doorstep. no,| they're-i was out in a they're not. i was out in a ntaae— they're not. i was out in a place called— they're not. i was out in a place called wootton wootton aneet— place called wootton wootton creek-there's- creek yesterday. there's a tavety— creek yesterday. there's a tavety ant— creek yesterday. there's a lovely and people not talking creek yesterday. there's a lovely boris. eople not talking creek yesterday. there's a lovely boris. i)ple not talking creek yesterday. there's a lovely boris. i know not talking about boris. i know the westminster- about boris. i know the westminster loves about boris. i know the westminster-loves talk westminster media loves to talk abatt— westminster media loves to talk atantittey-ve— westminster media loves to talk about they've moved on. doorstep, they've moved on. that — doorstep, they've moved on. that ineet— doorstep, they've moved on. what? - need _to l doorstep, they've moved on. what? .need-to cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whyou .need-to cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whyou wantieed-to cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whyou want taxes-to cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whyou want taxes to ito cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whyou want taxes to bet) cut. doorstep, they've moved on. whtit ti7 i do you want taxes to be cut? yes. they do. and what we need is yes. they do. and what we need ta a— yes. they do. and what we need is a conservative— “tit: "cat t:tit and what we need is a conservative government that— which is in line with the entan— which is in line with the. british _think which is in line with the- british _think that british people. they think that pattttaat— political correctness, they tan-t— political correctness, they tent-tt— political correctness, they don't-it. they- political correctness, they don't it. they want don't like it. they want us to be don't like it. they want us to te—tney don't like it. they want us to belts—they don't like it. they want us to be us deliver they don't like it. they want us to. belusldeliver-theand want us to deliver tax cuts and job want us to deliver tax cuts and tat—want- job creation, and they want us to tatn— job creation, and they want us to tatnlpeante— job creation, and they want us to train people here. so to train up people here. so tatter— to train up people here. so rather-relying- to train up people here. so rather relying on toryism rather than relying on toryism or-towismt- rather than relying on toryism. or-toryism,-more or left wing toryism, i say more aaneenattve— or left wing toryism, i say more conservative toryism more

aaneenattte— conservative toryism more conservative yeah conservative conservatism. yeah , conservative conservatism. yeah . we tave— conservative conservatism. yeah . we tata tnat. — conservative conservatism. yeah , we love that. bob,— conservative conservatism. yeah , we love that. bob, thank you very lovely to see very much indeed. lovely to see you thank you you this morning. thank you very, very much for joining me. now, to come on the now, lots more to come on the show. just after the break, i'll be to immigration be speaking to immigration minister jenrick i'll minister robert jenrick and i'll be government be asking him why the government have tackling both have failed in tackling both legal and illegal immigration. plus, to be speaking plus, i'm going to be speaking to mp charlotte nichols , to labour mp charlotte nichols, who's own party who's taking on her own party over what sees a failure over what she sees as a failure to tackle sexual misconduct within parliament. don't go anywhere. we'll be back .

soon well. welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now there's lots more to come . don't forget, i'm more to come. don't forget, i'm going to be challenging the immigration robert immigration minister robert jenrick government's jenrick over the government's failure a on my failure to get a grip on my nation, both legal and illegal. i'm also going to be speaking to the mp who she the labour mp who says she was given a list of 30 mps to given a list of 30 male mps to avoid because of their behaviour around women in parliament. can you believe it ? and around women in parliament. can you believe it? and i'm going to around women in parliament. can yolspeakingit ? and i'm going to around women in parliament. can yolspeaking to’ and i'm going to around women in parliament. can yolspeaking to alnd i'm going to around women in parliament. can yolspeaking to a mumn going to around women in parliament. can yolspeaking to a mum who ng to around women in parliament. can yolspeaking to a mum who waso be speaking to a mum who was spied the british spied on by the british government for campaigning against during against school closures during the pandemic. all that and more to come after the news with ray addison . to come after the news with ray addison. thanks, to come after the news with ray addison . thanks, camilla. it's

addison. thanks, camilla. it's teet— addison. thanks, camilla. it's teet- nee-e— addison. thanks, camilla. it's 10:01. here's the— ct: thanks, camilla. it's 10:01. here's the latest . our 10:01. here's the latest. our top— 10:01. here's the latest. our tap story— 10:01. here's the latest. our tap etaw tnte— 10:01. here's the latest. our top story this hour, india's nat— top story this hour, india's rail minister— top story this hour, india's rail minister is— top story this hour, india's rail minister is blaming changes to tne— rail minister is blaming changes to tne natnte— rail minister is blaming changes to the points and— rail minister is blaming changes to the points and signalling statem— to the points and signalling eweten tan— to the points and signalling system for the— to the points and signalling system for the country's worst tnatn— system for the country's worst tatn ataen— system for the country's worst train crash in— system for the country's worst train crash in decades. ashwini vatennaw— train crash in decades. ashwini vaishnaw made— train crash in decades. ashwini vaishnaw made the claim during a wett— vaishnaw made the claim during a wet ta— vaishnaw made the claim during a wet to tne— vaishnaw made the claim during a visit to the site— vaishnaw made the claim during a visit to the site as— vaishnaw made the claim during a visit to the site as recovery watt— visit to the site as recovery watt ant— visit to the site as recovery watt ant an— visit to the site as recovery work and an investigation got wnteawaw— work and an investigation got wntetwaw. tt-e— work and an investigation got underway. it's thought to passenger— underway. it's thought to passenger trains collided when one derailed.— passenger trains collided when one derailed. both then crashed tnta— one derailed. both then crashed tnta a— one derailed. both then crashed tnta a tatte— one derailed. both then crashed into a goods train,— one derailed. both then crashed into a goods train, killing 288 petite.— into a goods train, killing 288 peapte. twat— into a goods train, killing 288 people. kwasi kwarteng is poor tnat— people. kwasi kwarteng is poor taat ttt— people. kwasi kwarteng is poor taat tta . — people. kwasi kwarteng is poor track erg . we— people. kwasi kwarteng is poor track erg . we will- people. kwasi kwarteng is poor track erg . �*fttti; a t”; people. kwasi kwarteng is poor track erg . �*fttti; it q track erg. we will try to restore this track today. all the wagons, coaches and bodies have been removed . the have been removed. the restoration operation is in full swing and we will try to finish the restoration work by wednesday morning so that by then trains will be able to run normally . then trains will be able to run normally. a then trains will be able to run normally . a man then trains will be able to run normally. a man has then trains will be able to run normally . a man has been normally. a man has been aneetet— normally. a man has been aneetet an— a man has been arrested on suspicion of a public— arrested on suspicion of a public order— arrested on suspicion of a public order offence after weanng— public order offence after weannt a— public order offence after wearing a shirt to the fa cup tnat— wearing a shirt to the fa cup ttnat ,— wearing a shirt to the fa cup final , which— wearing a shirt to the fa cup final, which appeared to have an attenewe— final, which appeared to have an offensive reference— final, which appeared to have an offensive reference to the hillsborough_ offensive reference to the

hillsborough disaster. it teatwet— hillsborough disaster. it featured the— hillsborough disaster. it featured the number 97 and the watta— featured the number 97 and the watts nat— featured the number 97 and the words not enough— featured the number 97 and the words not enough . 97 liverpool words not enough. 97 liverpool tans— words not enough. 97 liverpool tane ttet— words not enough. 97 liverpool tane ttet tn— words not enough. 97 liverpool fans died in 1989— words not enough. 97 liverpool fans died in 1989 at the hillsborough_ fans died in 1989 at the hillsborough stadium in sheffield— hillsborough stadium in sheffield and the prime minister is sheffield and the prime minister ta eteeetnt— sheffield and the prime minister is stressing the— sheffield and the prime minister is stressing the importance of a ataee— is stressing the importance of a ataee ant— is stressing the importance of a close and candid— is stressing the importance of a close and candid relationship wttn— close and candid relationship wttn tne— close and candid relationship wttn tne us— close and candid relationship with the us president ahead of his with the us president ahead of nte wett— with the us president ahead of nte watt ta— with the us president ahead of his visit to the— with the us president ahead of his visit to the white house. weat— his visit to the white house. teat weet. — his visit to the white house. next week. rishi— his visit to the white house. next week. rishi sunak is expeatet— next week. rishi sunak is expeatet ta— next week. rishi sunak is expected to attend a baseball game— expected to attend a baseball game tn— expected to attend a baseball game in washington dc . prior to game in washington dc. prior to tatte— game in washington dc. prior to tatte wttn— game in washington dc. prior to talks with joe _ game in washington dc. prior to talks with joe biden . he'll also talks with joe biden. he'll also be neettnt— talks with joe biden. he'll also be meeting business executives in be meeting business executives tn an— be meeting business executives tn an attempt— be meeting business executives in an attempt to— be meeting business executives in an attempt to build closer economic ties— in an attempt to build closer economic ties between . the two economic ties between. the two aawnnete. — economic ties between. the two countries. the— economic ties between. the two countries. the duke of sussex wtt— countries. the duke of sussex wttt appear— countries. the duke of sussex wttt appear at— countries. the duke of sussex will appear at the high court tannanaw ta— will appear at the high court tomorrow to give _ will appear at the high court tomorrow to give evidence atatnet— tomorrow to give evidence agatnet tne— tomorrow to give evidence against the publisher of the natt— against the publisher of the natty tatter— against the publisher of the daily mirror over alleged wntawtwt— daily mirror over alleged unlawful information gathering . unlawful information gathering. natt— unlawful information gathering. harry atatne— unlawful information gathering. harry claims that— unlawful information gathering. harry claims that around 140 pattenet— harry claims that around 140 published articles contained information— published articles contained information gathered using wntawtwt— information gathered using unlawful methods, including phone— unlawful methods, including phone hacking,— unlawful methods, including phone hacking, mirror group newspapers— phone hacking, mirror group newspapers te— phone hacking, mirror group newspapers is contesting the atatne. — newspapers is contesting the atatne. royal— newspapers is contesting the claims. royal correspondent tttanaet— claims. royal correspondent michael cole— claims. royal correspondent michael cole says it will be ten— michael cole says it will be ten wnwwat— michael cole says it will be very unusual to— michael cole says it will be very unusual to see a royal on

tne— very unusual to see a royal on tne wttneee— very unusual to see a royal on the witness stand.— very unusual to see a royal on the witness stand. a royal annae— the witness stand. a royal prince gant— the witness stand. a royal prince going into the witness tax— prince going into the witness tax ta— prince going into the witness tax to twe— prince going into the witness box to give evidence in a very aantenttawe— box to give evidence in a very contentious case— box to give evidence in a very contentious case against mirror antn— contentious case against mirror group newspapers. l group newspapers. that hasn't happened ever since the 19th century. it is unprecedented. i mean, there's nothing in the british constitution that says a royal prince cannot give evidence or cannot be called to give a witness, to be a witness and meteorologist say there is a small chance that the temperature could reach 26 celsius today, which would make it the hottest day of the year so far. it's likely to be waet— it's likely to be warmest somewhere in the west so far. it's likely to be— warmest somewhere in the west of the warmest somewhere in the west of tne aawntw— warmest somewhere in the west of tne aawntw ,— warmest somewhere in the west of tne aawntw , atant— warmest somewhere in the west of the country , along with parts of the country, along with parts of watee— the country, along with parts of watee ant— the country, along with parts of wales and possibly southwest tngtant. — wales and possibly southwest england. meanwhile the met etttae— england. meanwhile the met etttae says— england. meanwhile the met office says the— england. meanwhile the met office says the dry weather is expeatet— office says the dry weather is expected continue into next expected to continue into next week— expected to continue into next week an— expected to continue into next week an tw— expected to continue into next week on tv, online on dab+ radio ant— week on tv, online on dab+ radio ant an— week on tv, online on dab+ radio ant an tune— week on tv, online on dab+ radio ant an tune tn— week on tv, online on dab+ radio and on tune in to— week on tv, online on dab+ radio and on tune in to this is gb wewe. — and on tune in to this is gb wewe. naat— and on tune in to this is gb news. back now— and on tune in to this is gb news. back now to .

news. back now to. camilla wetaane— news. back now to. camilla welcome back— news. back now to. camilla welcome back to the camilla tantnew— welcome back to the camilla tominey show. _ welcome back to the camilla tominey show. ttittt t:tit tominey show. now do not move a muscle , because i'm going to be muscle, because i'm going to be speaking to robert jenrick, the immigration minister, just immigration minister, in just a moment, and asking him whether the failed in the government have failed in tackling illegal tackling legal and illegal migration. charlotte nicholls , migration. charlotte nicholls, the labour mp for warrington north, also going be north, is also going to be joining going joining me. she's going to be taking on own over taking on her own party over sexual misconduct in parliament and i'm going to be joined in the studio by molly kingsley. she's of the she's the founder of the campaign for them who campaign group us for them who it campaign group us for them who h been campaign group us for them who it been was spied campaign group us for them who it by been was spied campaign group us for them who it by the n was spied campaign group us for them who it by the governmentlvas spied campaign group us for them who it by the government for spied on by the government for campaigning against school closures during the pandemic. and cindy jackson, once dubbed britain's surgically britain's most surgically enhanced who's now taking enhanced woman who's now taking on the plastic surgery surgery industry, will discussing industry, will be discussing with me her new book, how not to get botched. now, i hope that robert jenrick the immigration minister mp for minister and the tory mp for newark can hear me. robert, thank you much joining thank you very much for joining me morning . now, know me this morning. now, i know you've writing about this you've been writing about this in telegraph, in the telegraph, but do migrants have a right to

complain about conditions complain about the conditions that they're housed in hotels that they're housed in in hotels when seeking asylum . when they're seeking asylum. here well, camilla, i'll always try ta— here well, camilla, i'll always try to teat— ti; ”ti: well, camilla, i'll always try to treat economic migrants ant— try to treat economic migrants ant aewtwn — try to treat economic migrants and asylum seekers with dignity and asylum seekers with dignity ant teaenaw— and asylum seekers with dignity and decency, but— and asylum seekers with dignity and decency, but i'll never put the interests— and decency, but i'll never put the interests of— and decency, but i'll never put the interests of migrants above tnaee— the interests of migrants above tnaee at— the interests of migrants above tnaee at tne— the interests of migrants above those of the british public. and in those of the british public. and tn tnte— those of the british public. and tn we a— those of the british public. and in this case, the— those of the british public. and in this case, the home office attetet— in this case, the home office offered perfectly— in this case, the home office offered perfectly good accommodation to asylum seekers in accommodation to asylum seekers tn aentat— accommodation to asylum seekers in central london— accommodation to asylum seekers in central london and some for a anon— in central london and some for a start tne— in central london and some for a short time said— in central london and some for a short time said that— in central london and some for a short time said that it didn't meet— short time said that it didn't meet tnet— short time said that it didn't meet their requirements. but i'm pteaeet— meet their requirements. but i'm nteaeet ta— meet their requirements. but i'm pteaeet to e— meet their requirements. but i'm pleased to see that common sense nnewatet— pleased to see that common sense pnewatet ant— pleased to see that common sense prevailed and most,— pleased to see that common sense prevailed and most, if not all, of prevailed and most, if not all, at tnen— prevailed and most, if not all, of them, ended— prevailed and most, if not all, of them, ended up using the accommodation— of them, ended up using the accommodation in. we've got to step— accommodation in. we've got to step went— accommodation in. we've got to stop using hotels— accommodation in. we've got to stop using hotels altogether, etwae— stop using hotels altogether, reduce our reliance on them. the entw— reduce our reliance on them. the only sustainable— reduce our reliance on them. the only sustainable way to do that is only sustainable way to do that ta ta— only sustainable way to do that ta ta etae— only sustainable way to do that ta ta etae tne— only sustainable way to do that is to stop the boats in the wet— is to stop the boats in the ttet ptaae— is to stop the boats in the first place and— is to stop the boats in the first place and secure our tattere— first place and secure our batten .— first place and secure our borders . but— first place and secure our borders . but for as long as we borders. but for as long as we wetne— borders. but for as long as we are using them,— borders. but for as long as we are using them, we've got to get tatte— are using them, we've got to get| wane—taxpayer value for money for the taxpayer . nat— value for money for the taxpayer . nnt thew-te— value for money for the taxpayer . but they're complaining- value for money for the taxpayer . but they're complaining about two metres being enough two metres not being enough space for migrants. i mean they may have a point there. would you like to overnight in a two

metre squared space? well we'll always metre squared space? well we'll atwawe meet— metre squared space? well we'll always meet legal— 2: i7 well we'll always meet legal obligations ant— always meet legal obligations ant tnete— always meet legal obligations and there are— always meet legal obligations and there are space standards in notes— and there are space standards in notes ant— and there are space standards in hotels and other— and there are space standards in hotels and other forms of accommodation. but we have to get tatte— accommodation. but we have to get watwe tat— accommodation. but we have to get value for money for the taxpayer. — get value for money for the taxpayer. tt— get value for money for the taxpayer. tt te— get value for money for the taxpayer. it is wrong that we're epenttnt— taxpayer. it is wrong that we're epenttng te— taxpayer. it is wrong that we're spending £6 million a day on natete— spending £6 million a day on natete ant— spending £6 million a day on hotels and so— spending £6 million a day on hotels and so it's— spending £6 million a day on hotels and so it's right that we mate— hotels and so it's right that we make sure that— hotels and so it's right that we make sure that those hotels that we to — make sure that those hotels that we to ee— make sure that those hotels that we to ant— make sure that those hotels that we do use and i— make sure that those hotels that we do use and i say we want to etwae— we do use and i say we want to reduce our reliance— we do use and i say we want to reduce our reliance on them as nantttw— reduce our reliance on them as naptttw ae— reduce our reliance on them as rapidly ae we— reduce our reliance on them as rapidly ae we a— reduce our reliance on them as rapidly as we can, but whilst we are rapidly as we can, but whilst we wetne— rapidly as we can, but whilst we wetna tnen— rapidly as we can, but whilst we are using them ,_ rapidly as we can, but whilst we are using them , we get good are using them, we get good tatte— are using them, we get good watwe tat— are using them, we get good value for money— are using them, we get good value for money for the taxpayer. — value for money for the taxpayer. remember , for taxpayer. and remember, for tneee— taxpayer. and remember, fori tneee—nawe taxpayer. and remember, for- these_have said these are migrants who have said tnew— these are migrants who have said tnew-teetttwte,— these are migrants who have said they destitute, they've said they are destitute, they've said tnat— they are destitute, they've said tnat tnew— they are destitute, they've said that they have— they are destitute, they've said that they have absolutely nween— that they have absolutely nowhere to _ that they have absolutely nowhere to stay, no friends, no tantw— nowhere to stay, no friends, no tantw na— nowhere to stay, no friends, no family, no money,— nowhere to stay, no friends, no family, no money, and the taxpayer— family, no money, and the taxpayer te— family, no money, and the taxpayer is stepping up and pnawttng— taxpayer is stepping up and providing them— taxpayer is stepping up and providing them with good quality accommodation— providing them with good quality accommodation board and accommodation and board and tatatnte— accommodation and board and tatgtnge ant— accommodation and board and lodgings. and so— accommodation and board and lodgings. and so those i think tnaee— lodgings. and so those i think those migrants— lodgings. and so those i think those migrants are wrong to ptateet— those migrants are wrong to pnateet ant— those migrants are wrong to protest and say— those migrants are wrong to protest and say that they teeewe — protest and say that they teeewe ta — protest and say that they deserve to have single bedrooms wttn— deserve to have single bedrooms wttn en— deserve to have single bedrooms wttn en ewtte— deserve to have single bedrooms with en suite bathrooms and so on. with en suite bathrooms and so ant— with en suite bathrooms and so ant tn— with en suite bathrooms and so on. and i'm pleased to see that common sense— on. and i'm pleased to see that common sense seems to have ptetatet— common sense seems to have pnewatet tn— common sense seems to have prevailed in this— common sense seems to have prevailed in this case. :

prevailed in this case. the idea of prevailed in this case. the idea at at— prevailed in this case. the idea at at at— prevailed in this case. the idea of all of these migrants flooding across the flooding into hotels across the uk is the government's fault, really isn't it? i mean, there's an astonishing figure today suggesting that you're still to process the asylum claims of 17,000 albanians. what on earth were they doing coming to this country claiming asylum in the first place when they're coming from a safe country? the whole reason why this has happened, as far as gb viewers and listeners are concerned, is because the government lost government has completely lost a grip on this issue . no that's grip on this issue. no that's not a fair analysis. there's a twapean— not a fair analysis. there's a european migration- . there's a european migration challenge . european migration challenge. tnete— european migration challenge. tnete ae— european migration challenge. there are millions of people on the there are millions of people on tne nave— there are millions of people on the move around— there are millions of people on the move around the world and all the move around the world and at twapean— the move around the world and all european countries are taatnt— all european countries are taatng very— all european countries are facing very large numbers of ttetat— facing very large numbers of illegal migrants. i've just been in illegal migrants. i've just been tn tanae— illegal migrants. i've just been tn tanae tn— illegal migrants. i've just been in france, in italy— illegal migrants. i've just been in france, in italy and then in wetn— in france, in italy and then in wattn atnaa— in france, in italy and then in north africa, in— in france, in italy and then in north africa, in countries like twnteta— north africa, in countries like twnteta ant— north africa, in countries like tunisia and algeria and the anattente— tunisia and algeria and the challenge is— tunisia and algeria and the challenge is very great. but tnat— challenge is very great. but tnat te— challenge is very great. but tnat te wnw— challenge is very great. but that is why we— challenge is very great. but that is why we need to take the ttnt— that is why we need to take the ttnt at— that is why we need to take the kind of robust— that is why we need to take the kind of robust action that we ant— kind of robust action that we are and we have— kind of robust action that we are and we have put in place in the are and we have put in place in tne taet— are and we have put in place in tne taet ew— are and we have put in place in the last six months— are and we have put in place in the last six months under rishi senat— the last six months under rishi swnat ,— the last six months under rishi sunak , suella_ the last six months under rishi sunak , suella braverman and sunak, suella braverman and tween,— sunak, suella braverman and nweett, ane— sunak, suella braverman and nweett, at— sunak, suella braverman and myself, one of the most

comprehensive and robust plans of comprehensive and robust plans at any— comprehensive and robust plans at any nap-at— comprehensive and robust plans of any major european country. we-we— of any major european country. we-we etgnet— of any major european country. we've signed two— of any major european country. we've signed two important agreemente— we've signed two important agreements with france . there's agreements with france. there's going— agreements with france. there's gatnt ta— agreements with france. there's going to mean— agreements with france. there's going to mean more interceptions on going to mean more interceptions an tne— going to mean more interceptions on the beaches. _ going to mean more interceptions on the beaches. in— going to mean more interceptions on the beaches. in fact, 33,000 ttegat— on the beaches. in fact, 33,000 illegal migrants— on the beaches. in fact, 33,000 illegal migrants have been etappet— illegal migrants have been etappet an— illegal migrants have been stopped on beaches in france in the stopped on beaches in france in tne taet— stopped on beaches in france in tne taet weat— stopped on beaches in france in the last year alone— stopped on beaches in france in the last year alone , 40% the last year alone, 40% increase on— the last year alone, 40% increase on year before . the last year alone, 40%- increase on .year before . and increase on the year before. and gat— increase on the year before. and eat a— increase on the year before. and we've now got a gold standard ewtn— we've now got a gold standard returns agreement with albania. tnat— returns agreement with albania. tnat meane— returns agreement with albania. that means there's a weekly tttnt—taatl that means there's a weeklyi flight—back to flight sending people back to attanta— flight sending people back to albania. minister when will you tepant— albania. minister when will you deport somebody— albania. minister when will you deport somebody to rwanda ? deport somebody to rwanda? i paw eap— deport somebody to rwanda? i mean, you say that— deport somebody to rwanda? mean, you say that you've got this standard . that's not this gold standard. that's not how from voters how it feels from the voters point they feel that point of view. they feel that there's lack control our there's a lack of control of our borders . they're worried about borders. they're worried about the migration figure of the legal migration figure of 606,000. when david cameron put a cap on numbers at 100,000. so it's not a gold standard. it's great that you've been jet setting around to see and share best practise but when are we going to see migrants deported to you give us to rwanda? can you give us a date? well i'll well, we'll get those flights going to rwanda as soon as we get through the courts. when will that be? we're

tetttnt— courts. when will that be? we're aetttng tne— courts. when will that be? we're aetttng tne ttt— ti.tit. when will that be? we're getting the bill through parliament— getting the bill through parliament aren't well, i can't twe— parliament aren't well, i can't give yaw— parliament aren't well, i can't give you a— parliament aren't well, i can't give you a tate— parliament aren't well, i can't give you a date because we don't know— give you a date because we don't know wnen— give you a date because we don't know when we'll— give you a date because we don't know when we'll from the know when we'll hear from the aawte— know when we'll hear from the aawte-wew— know when we'll hear from the courts. very pleased courts. but i'm very pleased tnat— courts. but i'm very pleased tnat tne— courts. but i'm very pleased that the high— courts. but i'm very pleased that the high court resounded ewppanet— that the high court resounded ewppanet tne— that the high court resounded supported the government's pattaw— supported the government's pattaw ,— supported the government's pattaw , eatt— supported the government's pattaw , eatt tt— supported the government's policy , said it was legal. all policy, said it was legal. all of policy, said it was legal. all at tnaee— policy, said it was legal. all of those people _ policy, said it was legal. all of those people who said it waet— of those people who said it wasn't were proven wrong. the aawt— wasn't were proven wrong. the aawt at— wasn't were proven wrong. the aawn at appeat— wasn't were proven wrong. the court of appeal has heard our -watttng— court of appeal has heard our case. waiting their case. we're waiting for their twtgenent— case. we're waiting for their. judgement._those judgement. we will get those tttnte— judgement. we will get those ttttnte tn— judgement. we will get those flights in the— judgement. we will get those flights in the air— judgement. we will get those flights in the air as soon as we paeettw— flights in the air as soon as we paeettw-tne- flights in the air as soon as we possibly _the .thati possibly can. and the bill that tn — possibly can. and the bill that tn ptattnt— possibly can. and the bill that i'm piloting through parliament fundamentally— i'm piloting through parliament fundamentally changes the system teaawee— fundamentally changes the system teaawee yaw— fundamentally changes the system because you can't— fundamentally changes the system because you can't just with this eweten. — because you can't just with this eweten. tt— because you can't just with this eweten. tt te— because you can't just with this system. it is today.— because you can't just with this system. it is today. there is tame— system. it is today. there is flame warrant— system. it is today. there is flame warrant abuse of the eweten — flame warrant abuse of the eweten .— flame warrant abuse of the eweten . we— flame warrant abuse of the system . we need an entirely system. we need an entirely ttttetent— system. we need an entirely different one.— system. we need an entirely different one. and the system tnat— different one. and the system tnat wete— different one. and the system that we're building is one where if that we're building is one where t yaw— that we're building is one where t waw apne— that we're building is one where if you come illegally , you will if you come illegally, you will not-allowed— if you come illegally, you will not-allowed to— if you come illegally, you will not allowed to stay here. not be allowed to stay here. can— not be allowed to stay here. can you— not be allowed to stay here. can yaw-sane— not be allowed to stay here. can you-some figures- not be allowed to stay here. can you .some figures oni not be allowed to stay here. i can you .some figures on it can you put some figures on it then were 45,000 people then there were 45,000 people coming in illegally across the channel last year. what number should that be reduced to ? and should that be reduced to? and on this 606,000 road legal immigrants, what should that number be capped at? well on illegal migration and the boats, we've been as clear as possible

. we said we want to stop the taate. — . we said we want to stop the taate. we— . we said we want to stop the boats. we want— . we said we want to stop the boats. we want to _ we said we want to stop the boats. we want to stop people nattnt— boats. we want to stop people nattng tneee— boats. we want to stop people making these crossings. ll making these crossings. so will tnat— making these crossings. so will that figure— making these crossings. so will that figure-next- making these crossings. so will that figure next year on that figure be zero next year on every possible front ? well, i every possible front? well, i want to stop the— every possible front? well, i want to stop the boats. - 7 well, i want to stop the boats. i mean, tnat— want to stop the boats. i mean, tnat te— want to stop the boats. i mean, tnat te wnat— want to stop the boats. i mean, that is what i'm— want to stop the boats. i mean, that is what i'm working day and nttnt— that is what i'm working day and nttnt an— that is what i'm working day and ntgnt an wttn— that is what i'm working day and night on with the— that is what i'm working day and night on with the prime minister and night on with the prime minister ant tne— night on with the prime minister ant tne tene— night on with the prime minister and the home secretary. we want to and the home secretary. we want ta—tneee- to stop people making these tantetawe— dangerous and unnecessary aeete— dangerous and unnecessary aeete .— dangerous and unnecessary aateeneg . ant— dangerous and unnecessary crossings . and that's why we're crossings. and that's why we're tattng— crossings. and that's why we're taking diplomatically taking action diplomatically wttn— taking action diplomatically wttn tne— taking action diplomatically with the new— taking action diplomatically with the new that's going with the new bill that's going tntawtn— with the new bill that's going through parliament. that's why wete-twnttng- we're boosting funding for the pattae— we're boosting funding for the pattaeltnat-e— we're boosting funding for the policeithat's-was- police. that's why i was in wann— police. that's why i was in want-tne- police. that's why i was in north-this week- police. that's why i was in north this week . so police. that's why i was in- north-this week . so we're north africa this week. so we're aetttnt— north africa this week. so we're getting-national— getting the national crime agenaw— getting the national crime agenaw ta— getting the national crime agency to smashing gangs agency to be smashing the gangs betwe— agency to be smashing the gangs tetane peapte— agency to be smashing the gangs tetane peapte aet— agency to be smashing the gangs before people get anywhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuerople get anywhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuk .aople get anywhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuk . andt get anywhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuk . and ontt anywhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuk . and on legalivhere agency to be smashing the gangs befiuk . and on legal migration , the uk. and on legal migration, it the uk. and on legal migration, tt te— the uk. and on legal migration, tt te tat— the uk. and on legal migration, tt te tat taa— the uk. and on legal migration, it is far too high— the uk. and on legal migration, it is far too high and i want to tt— it is far too high and i want to tt apne— it is far too high and i want to see it come down.— it is far too high and i want to see it come down. what illegal ntgnattan— see it come down. what illegal ntgnattan an— see it come down. what illegal migration on this— see it come down. what illegal migration on this scale is unsustainable? well, we've said wen— unsustainable? well, we've said very ateatw— unsustainable? well, we've said very clearly that— unsustainable? well, we've said very clearly that we want to see it very clearly that we want to see tt tatt. — very clearly that we want to see tt tatt. t— very clearly that we want to see tt tatt. t want— very clearly that we want to see it fall. i want to— very clearly that we want to see it fall. i want to see— very clearly that we want to see it fall. i want to see it fall substantially— it fall. i want to see it fall substantially because it's pwtttng— substantially because it's putting pressure on housing, on pwttta— putting pressure on housing, on public services,— putting pressure on housing, on public services, on— putting pressure on housing, on public services, on integration on public services, on integration an ant— public services, on integration on and businesses , although, of on and businesses, although, of course, we need— on and businesses, although, of course, we need to— on and businesses, although, of course, we need to show flexibility _ course, we need to show flexibility .— course, we need to show flexibility . we - course, we need to show flexibility . we need to be flexibility. we need to be netptnt— flexibility. we need to be helping british workers to get two— helping british workers to get tnta tne— helping british workers to get into the workplace . s to help into the workplace. s to help

peapte— into the workplace. s to help peapte ta — into the workplace. s to help people to train— into the workplace. s to help people to train and get the ettte— people to train and get the ettte tnew— people to train and get the skills they need rather than teaantng— skills they need rather than teaantnt tan— skills they need rather than reaching for the _ skills they need rather than reaching for the easy lever of teen— reaching for the easy lever of foreign labour. _ reaching for the easy lever of foreign labour. titti; foreign labour. so are you happy to have a cap to doing ? are you to have a cap to doing? are you happy to have a cap? and what should it be? well, i don't tntnt— should it be? well, i don't tntnt tnat— should it be? well, i don't think that arbitrary- : l itti;7 well, i don't think that arbitrary caps and targete— think that arbitrary caps and tangete ae— think that arbitrary caps and targets are particularly netptwt.— targets are particularly helpful. what i do think is tnpattant— helpful. what i do think is tnpanant te— helpful. what i do think is important is that now that we nave— important is that now that we nave wett— important is that now that we nave wett ,— important is that now that we have well , because migration is have well, because migration is aanetanttw— have well, because migration is constantly changing , we need the constantly changing, we need the teatttttw— constantly changing, we need the ttextttttw ta — constantly changing, we need the flexibility to respond to anantee— flexibility to respond to anangee tn— flexibility to respond to changes in the economy or in patterne— changes in the economy or in pattetne at— changes in the economy or in patterns of behaviour. but the 900d_ patterns of behaviour. but the teat newe— patterns of behaviour. but the teat te— patterns of behaviour. but the good news is that we've now got aentat— good news is that we've now got aantat at— good news is that we've now got aantat at aw— good news is that we've now got control of our borders. after teawnt — control of our borders. after teawnt tne — control of our borders. after leaving the european union , leaving the european union, we've created— leaving the european union, we've created the points based eweten — we've created the points based eweten ant— we've created the points based system and unlike all of those ptewawe— system and unlike all of those previous governments who made ptanteee— previous governments who made pnanteee tnat— previous governments who made promises that they— previous governments who made promises that they couldn't keep teaawee— promises that they couldn't keep teaawee at— promises that they couldn't keep because of free— promises that they couldn't keep because of free movement , we because of free movement, we nave— because of free movement, we nave-attttw— because of free movement, we have-ability now- because of free movement, we have ability now to make have the ability now to make anantee. — have the ability now to make anangee. ant— have the ability now to make changes. and so— have the ability now to make changes. and so two weeks ago we mate— changes. and so two weeks ago we nate ane— changes. and so two weeks ago we nate at— changes. and so two weeks ago we made one of those— changes. and so two weeks ago we made one of those changes, which is made one of those changes, which te-tnat— made one of those changes, which te-tnat tt— made one of those changes, which te-tnat tt you— made one of those changes, which is-that if you are- made one of those changes, which is-that if you are a- is to say that if you are a wnwenettw— is to say that if you are a university student coming here tan— university student coming here from overseas on— university student coming here from overseas on a short course, you— from overseas on a short course, waw wan-t— from overseas on a short course, you want te— from overseas on a short course, you wont be atte— from overseas on a short course, you won't be able to bring tepentente— you won't be able to bring dependents with you, and that wtt— dependents with you, and that wtt etwae— dependents with you, and that will reduce substantially the nwnnett— will reduce substantially the nwnnett at— will reduce substantially the number of people coming in to te— number of people coming in to

we aawntw. — number of people coming in to this country. and— number of people coming in to this country. and that's just one tangible— this country. and that's just one tangible example . all of us one tangible example. all of us went— one tangible example. all of us went tne— one tangible example. all of us using the powers— one tangible example. all of us using the powers that we now nave — using the powers that we now nave tnat— using the powers that we now nave tnat we — using the powers that we now have that we didn't have when we were members of— have that we didn't have when we were members of the european untan— were members of the european union—migrationl union to control our migration eweten — union to control our migration eweten .— union to control our migration eweten . ant— union to control our migration eweten . ant tt— union to control our migration system . and if we could we system. and if we could we teat-e— system. and if we could we teae-tu— system. and if we could we leave.-eu-do. - system. and if we could we- leave.-eu-do. should we leave. the eu will do. should we teawe— leave. the eu will do. should we leave echr one of our leave the echr one of our people's panellist justin, people's panellist, justin, wants you wants me to ask you that question . are well, the bill question. are well, the bill that we're piloting through parliament is compatible with our international law obligations. soi our international law obligations. so i hope that wett— obligations. so i hope that wett te— obligations. so i hope that we'll be able— obligations. so i hope that we'll be able to— obligations. so i hope that we'll be able to get- 3 so i hope that we'll be able to get those tttnte— we'll be able to get those tttgnte att— we'll be able to get those flights off to _ we'll be able to get those flights off to rwanda and attteee— flights off to rwanda and address this— flights off to rwanda and address this issue within the aet— address this issue within the current framework. but look, eatt— current framework. but look, we've said that— current framework. but look, we've said that we'll do what's neaeeeaw ta — we've said that we'll do what's necessary to stop— we've said that we'll do what's necessary to stop the boats teaawee— necessary to stop the boats because the _ necessary to stop the boats because the public want us to secure-borders— because the public want us to secure borders and the secure our borders and the international— secure our borders and the international framework works tnat— international framework works tnatwee— international framework works that were created after the seaant— that were created after the second world _ that were created after the second world war. are now out of tate — second world war. are now out of tate ant— second world war. are now out of tate ant neet— second world war. are now out of date and need to— second world war. are now out of date and need to be— second world war. are now out of date and need to be renewed and netnattnet— date and need to be renewed and netnagtnet tat— date and need to be renewed and reimagined for an— date and need to be renewed and reimagined for an age of mass ntgnattan. — reimagined for an age of mass migration. that's— reimagined for an age of mass migration. that's what the uk is tant— migration. that's what the uk is tatnt we— migration. that's what the uk is tatng. we ae— migration. that's what the uk is tatng. we a— migration. that's what the uk is doing. we are a leader in this nett— doing. we are a leader in this ttett. wete— doing. we are a leader in this field. we've created our rwanda pattaw— field. we've created our rwanda pattaw ant— field. we've created our rwanda policy and other— field. we've created our rwanda policy and other governments, tnatwttnt— policy and other governments, tnatwttnt tn— policy and other governments, including in europe, are looking to t— including in europe, are looking to t tt— including in europe, are looking to it with interest— including in europe, are looking to it with interest and seeing

tnat— to it with interest and seeing tnat tne— to it with interest and seeing tnat tne ttt— to it with interest and seeing that the uk is— to it with interest and seeing that the uk is taking very natwet— that the uk is taking very natwet ta— that the uk is taking very robust to action tackle this pnatten. — robust to action tackle this problem. minister elon musk, the neat— problem. minister elon musk, the neat at— problem. minister elon musk, the head of twitter,— problem. minister elon musk, the head of twitter, and indeed teeta— head of twitter, and indeed teeta nae— head of twitter, and indeed tesla, has described the tetegnapn— tesla, has described the telegraph story, talking about the telegraph story, talking about tne awnte— telegraph story, talking about the counter disinformation unit spying— the counter disinformation unit epwtng an— the counter disinformation unit spying on lockdown critics as tenttte. — spying on lockdown critics as terrible. do— spying on lockdown critics as terrible. do you— spying on lockdown critics as terrible. tit agitinzi; spying on lockdown critics as terrible. tit tittg spying on lockdown critics as terrible. jtit g ii 7 terrible. do you agree with him? this needs to be investigated , this needs to be investigated, doesn't it ? well, i believe in doesn't it? well, i believe in free speech. i do not believe in aawenente— free speech. i do not believe in governments or— free speech. i do not believe in governments or other- 7”ti;ti; i i do not believe in governments or other people atanptnt— governments or other people atanptna tawn— governments or other people clamping down on the ability of tnttwtwate— clamping down on the ability of individuals to— clamping down on the ability of individuals to speak their mind on individuals to speak their mind an tne— individuals to speak their mind an tne teewee— individuals to speak their mind on the issues of— individuals to speak their mind on the issues of the day. as i tne— on the issues of the day. as i was the government sanctioning eaatat— was the government sanctioning eaatat netta— was the government sanctioning social media companies to etenae— social media companies to silence those— social media companies to silence those who were critical of silence those who were critical at taattawn— silence those who were critical of lockdown, then— silence those who were critical of lockdown, then i well, as i wntenetant— of lockdown, then i well, as i understand it,— of lockdown, then i well, as i understand it, the— of lockdown, then i well, as i understand it, the story isn't aaneat— understand it, the story isn't aaneat ant— understand it, the story isn't correct and that— understand it, the story isn't correct and that this unit did nat— correct and that this unit did not tate— correct and that this unit did not take action _ correct and that this unit did not take action against any tnttwtwat— not take action against any individual feel— not take action against any individual feel that there was a ten— individual feel that there was a ten atean— individual feel that there was a very atean pattaw— individual feel that there was a very clear policy that no tawnattet— very clear policy that no journalist or— very clear policy that no journalist or politician should te— journalist or politician should ever be monitored. but that tttn-t— ever be monitored. but that tttn-t nappen— ever be monitored. but that tttn-t nappen ,— ever be monitored. but that didn't happen , did it? it.” didn't happen, did it? mr tentat— didn't happen, did it? mr jenrick because- didn't happen, did it? mr jenrick because we- didn't happen, did it? mr jenrick because we had mind. we had a situation where david davis had given a speech talking about the efficacy of face masks

, and facebook took it down without any justification. we've got social media companies constantly monitoring output and making arbitrary decisions about perfectly legitimate journalistic stories. so what we've got is an over monitoring of free speech in this country that must really worry you as a conservative. yeah, i believe in free speech. i want politicians, nenette— free speech. i want politicians, nnennette at— free speech. i want politicians, members of the— 7”ti;ti; i i want politicians, members of the public, you as a tawnattet— members of the public, you as a tawnattet ta— members of the public, you as a journalist to be _ members of the public, you as a journalist to be able to speak wow— journalist to be able to speak yaw ntnt— journalist to be able to speak your mind without fear or tawawn — your mind without fear or favour. understand it, this favour. as i understand it, this wntt— favour. as i understand it, this wntt wttntn— favour. as i understand it, this unit within cabinet office unit within the cabinet office did unit within the cabinet office ttt nat— unit within the cabinet office did not monitor— unit within the cabinet office did not monitor specific individuals. _ did not monitor specific individuals. but on the broader patnt— individuals. but on the broader patnt ,— individuals. but on the broader patnt , we— individuals. but on the broader point , we believe— individuals. but on the broader point, we believe in individuals. but on the broader point , we believe in free speech point, we believe in free speech as point, we believe in free speech ae a aawenent— point, we believe in free speech as a government. that's one of tne— as a government. that's one of tne aneat— as a government. that's one of the great tenets— as a government. that's one of the great tenets of— as a government. that's one of the great tenets of this country ant— the great tenets of this country ant we— the great tenets of this country and we should— the great tenets of this country and we should always fight for tnat—ttnat- and we should always fight for| that—final question and we should always fight for| théboris-final question and we should always fight for on boris johnson, who we can never quite leave behind, even though the government might move on, he's suggesting or at least his allies suggesting, that his allies are suggesting, that rishi doesn't want to rishi sunak doesn't want to hand over messages to over his whatsapp messages to the baroness inquiry the baroness hallett inquiry into covid because he's got something to hide. has he got something to hide. has he got something to hide. has he got something to hide? mrjenrick no

. so what we've said is that we wtt— . so what we've said is that we wtt nant— . so what we've said is that we will hand over— . so what we've said is that we will hand over to— so what we've said is that we will hand over to the inquiry. ateatwtetw— will hand over to the inquiry. absolutely anything that has got anwtntnt— absolutely anything that has got anwtntng ta— absolutely anything that has got anwtntng ta ta— absolutely anything that has got anything to do with covid 19 or the anything to do with covid 19 or tne pwpaee— anything to do with covid 19 or tne pwpaee at— anything to do with covid 19 or the purpose of the— anything to do with covid 19 or the purpose of the inquiry where were— the purpose of the inquiry where tnene te— the purpose of the inquiry where tnene te a— the purpose of the inquiry where there is a small— the purpose of the inquiry where there is a small disagreement tnat— there is a small disagreement tnat te— there is a small disagreement that is around— there is a small disagreement that is around handing over taawnente— that is around handing over documents or— that is around handing over documents or messages that have got documents or messages that have tat natntnt— documents or messages that have got nothing, absolutely nothing to got nothing, absolutely nothing ta ta— got nothing, absolutely nothing ta ta wttn— got nothing, absolutely nothing to do with covm. _ got nothing, absolutely nothing to do with covid. and as a tanne— to do with covid. and as a former lawyer,— to do with covid. and as a former lawyer, i've been tnwawet— former lawyer, i've been tnwawet tn— former lawyer, i've been involved in these these tteaawew— involved in these these discovery exercises in the past. ant— discovery exercises in the past. ant wnat— discovery exercises in the past. and what courts— discovery exercises in the past. and what courts do in these ettwattane— and what courts do in these situations is— and what courts do in these situations is ask— and what courts do in these situations is ask individuals or twetneeeee— situations is ask individuals or twetneeeee ta— situations is ask individuals or businesses to hand over taawnente— businesses to hand over documents that are relevant to the documents that are relevant to te tntwtw— documents that are relevant to te tntwtw at— documents that are relevant to the inquiry or the— documents that are relevant to the inquiry or the case. there is the inquiry or the case. there te na— the inquiry or the case. there is no precedent— the inquiry or the case. there is no precedent for handing over tntnte— is no precedent for handing over tntnte tnat— is no precedent for handing over things that have— is no precedent for handing over things that have got nothing at all things that have got nothing at at ta— things that have got nothing at at ta ta— things that have got nothing at all to do with— things that have got nothing at all to do with it.— things that have got nothing at all to do with it. i— things that have got nothing at all to do with it. i hope that we— all to do with it. i hope that we can resolve— all to do with it. i hope that we can resolve this with lady twettae— we can resolve this with lady justice hallett— we can resolve this with lady justice hallett ,_ we can resolve this with lady justice hallett , for whom we justice hallett, for whom we nave— justice hallett, for whom we have-greatest- justice hallett, for whom we have greatest respect , and have the greatest respect, and tnat—aan- have the greatest respect, and tnat—aan te- have the greatest respect, and that—can be .to| that this matter can be put to neet— that this matter can be put to teet-twtatw. — that this matter can be put to rest-quickly. thank- that this matter can be put to rest quickly. “new rest very quickly. thank you wen— rest very quickly. thank you very much indeed for your time rest very quickly. thank you very morning.ieed for your time rest very quickly. thank you very morning. thankr your time rest very quickly. thank you very morning. thank you. r time rest very quickly. thank you verymorning. thank you. now,3 this morning. thank you. now, don't forget, in just a minute, this morning. thank you. now, don goinget, in just a minute, this morning. thank you. now, don going to in just a minute, this morning. thank you. now, don going to in jspeakingiute, this morning. thank you. now, don going to in jspeakingiutethe i'm going to be speaking to the labour says her party labour mp who says her own party is mps over is failing female mps over sexual misconduct in parliament. but first, the people's panel .

but first, the people's panel. olivia, what have the people in bromley of interviews? olivia, what have the people in b did ley of interviews? olivia, what have the people in b did try of interviews? olivia, what have the people in bdid try and of interviews? olivia, what have the people in bdid try and getf interviews? olivia, what have the people in bdid try and get in interviews? olivia, what have the people in bdid try and get in just terviews? olivia, what have the people in bdid try and get in just ins iews? i did try and get in just ins question there. i don't know whether with the whether he's satisfied with the answer jenrick well, answer from robert jenrick well, yes, we've been sitting here listening with sharp ears to your interview there, and i think our people's panel have quite a lot to say about it. i'm going to start with barney neae— i'm going to start with barney nee-next— i'm going to start with barney here,-next me.- i'm going to start with barney here, next me. there's here, who's to next me. there's teen— here, who's to next me. there's teen-at— here, who's to next me. there's been _of discussion- been a lot of discussion this week— week about boris johnson's wnateapp— week about boris johnson's whatsapp or whatsapp messages, whether or not whatsapp messages, whether or net-enawtt— whatsapp messages, whether or not should released to not they should be released to the not they should be released to tne cowo— not they should be released to the covid inquiry. and of course, camilla is rightly tettaattnt— course, camilla is rightly dedicating section of the dedicating a big section of the entw— dedicating a big section of the enaw-awet— dedicating a big section of the show over whether the show today over whether the peapte— show today over whether the peapte wna — show today over whether the people who were sceptical of at— people who were sceptical of at tne — people who were sceptical of some of the lockdown signs were in some of the lockdown signs were tn taat— some of the lockdown signs were tn taat tent— some of the lockdown signs were in fact being being— some of the lockdown signs were in fact being being persecuted reatt— in fact being being persecuted really tw— in fact being being persecuted really tw tw— in fact being being persecuted really tw tw tne— in fact being being persecuted really by by the government. the cowo— really by by the government. the cave tntwtw— really by by the government. the aovtp tntwtw te— really by by the government. the covid inquiry is obviously quite tnpattant,— covid inquiry is obviously quite tnpanant, twt— covid inquiry is obviously quite important, but do— covid inquiry is obviously quite important, but do you think it's een— important, but do you think it's eat at— important, but do you think it's eat at aettnt— important, but do you think it's sort of asking the— important, but do you think it's sort of asking the right tweettan— sort of asking the right question ? _ sort of asking the right question ? sort of asking the right- question ? owens i'm not sure question? owens i'm not sure it's asking the right questions. i'm also concerned about how long it's going to take, concerned about how much money it's going to cost. i think we can all sympathise. it was the for all countries, it was the first sort of situation we've

gone through like that for most of our lifetimes. so it's all a new experience. but the fact that some other european countries seem to have done the inquiry and finished it and already results the already got the results by the time everyone time we get ours, everyone would have do wonder time we get ours, everyone would have its do wonder time we get ours, everyone would have its value do wonder time we get ours, everyone would have its value will do wonder time we get ours, everyone would have its value will and wonder time we get ours, everyone would have its value will and the ier what its value will be and the whole thing be turning what its value will be and the whoia thing be turning what its value will be and the whoia thing a be turning what its value will be and the whoia thing a farce be turning what its value will be and the whoia thing a farce really,jrning into a bit of a farce really, with said and with what can be said and shared, what's redacted, what's kept like british shared, what's redacted, what's keptof like british shared, what's redacted, what's keptof political british shared, what's redacted, what's keptof political comedyi shared, what's redacted, what's keptof political comedy from sort of political comedy from from experienced from what we've experienced in the week. absolutely. the last week. absolutely. the taet— the last week. absolutely. the last-certainly— the last week. absolutely. the last _certainly felt - the last week. absolutely. the last _certainly felt very l last week. certainly felt very tanataat— last week. certainly felt very farcical indeed— last week. certainly felt very farcical indeed .— last week. certainly felt very farcical indeed . and justin, you farcical indeed. and justin, you aettnt— farcical indeed. and justin, you were asking about the echr and canta— were asking about the echr and cantta pwt— were asking about the echr and camilla put that— were asking about the echr and camilla put that question to repeat— camilla put that question to robert jenrick— camilla put that question to robert jenrick .— camilla put that question to robert jenrick . what did you robert jenrick. what did you mate— robert jenrick. what did you make at— robert jenrick. what did you make at me— robert jenrick. what did you make of his answer ? did he make of his answer? did he petewate— make of his answer? did he penewate yaw— make of his answer? did he persuade you that the government is persuade you that the government te tatng— persuade you that the government te doing enawgn— persuade you that the government is doing enough, that he's pwtttnt— is doing enough, that he's pwtttnt-an- is doing enough, that he's pwtttng-an ttl is doing enough, that he's putting on it as is doing enough, that he's- putting-on it as you putting the dates on it as you ae— putting the dates on it as you tt-e— putting the dates on it as you are? it's wonderful,- putting the dates on it as you are? l : l putting the dates on it as you are? : l c7 are? it's wonderful, isn't it? yet he said he couldn't yet again, he said he couldn't give dates. and what my question to robert would be well, fair enough. if you haven't got the plan together yet, you haven't got , how about a date when got dates, how about a date when we the dates is very , we can have the dates is very, very good. question. did was anwtntnt— very good. question. did was anwtntng ne— very good. question. did was anything he said— wig 3: question. did was anything he said sort of persuasive— anything he said sort of persuasive to- anything he said sort of persuasive to you that did it ttt— persuasive to you that did it ttt tt— persuasive to you that did it ttt tt mate— persuasive to you that did it did it make you— persuasive to you that did it did it make you think that the

government— did it make you think that the government doing more government might be doing more tnan— government might be doing more| tnan—tnawtnte than more than you had thought? or than more than you had thought? at ttt— than more than you had thought? at ttt yaw— than more than you had thought? or did you think— than more than you had thought? or did you think same old, same atte— or did you think same old, same atteltntnt— or did you think same old, same old?ithink it's— or did you think same old, same old?ithink it's same— or did you think same old, same old? think it's same same old? i think it's same old, same old,— old? i think it's same old, same ttt—mate- old? i think it's same old, samei old,_makelvalid old, though he did make a valid patnt— old, though he did make a valid point-restricting- point about restricting the etwtent— point about restricting the student visas. - point about restricting the student visas. ct?" l point about restricting the student visas. cc?" c student visas. i don't know what short means. does short mean two weeks or does it mean a two year course? i don't know what that definition is, but, you know, it was positive. whether it will have any effect , i was positive. whether it will have any effect, i mean, if it's maybe a six month course, let's say, then you'll find all the universities in inverted commas , will probably turn it into seven and will seven month courses and will work around it. so i, i wait to see the results . not 100% see the results. not 100% annaet— see the results. not 100% convinced there - see the results. not 100% convinced there .- not 100% convinced there . and david, what convinced there. and david, what did convinced there. and david, what ttt yaw— convinced there. and david, what ttt you mate— convinced there. and david, what did you make of— convinced there. and david, what did you make of those interviews tnat— did you make of those interviews tnat we— did you make of those interviews tnat we twet— did you make of those interviews that we just heard— did you make of those interviews that we just heard ? did they that we just heard? did they penewate— that we just heard? did they penewate yaw— that we just heard? did they persuade you that the conservative - persuade you that the conservative party is doing eanetntnt— conservative party is doing something, doing anything really to taatte— something, doing anything really to taatte tne — something, doing anything really to tackle the immigration pnatten — to tackle the immigration problem properly ? or did it problem properly? or did it eawnt— problem properly? or did it eawnt atte— problem properly? or did it sound like just— problem properly? or did it sound like just something that yaw-we— sound like just something that yaw-we neat— sound like just something that you've heard before ? “tit: you've heard before? yes, i nent— you've heard before? yes, i heart a— you've heard before? yes, i heard a repeat— you've heard before? yes, i heard a repeat of answers. but what i look for when i listen to any politician is a feeling of

confidence that they are confident . and i don't always confident. and i don't always get that. i mean, having just having straight answers, that sounds fine, but i don't know yet. we'll have to see and all the rest of it at some point somebody just needs to deliver confidence, which includes the word pride , because we should be word pride, because we should be proud of our country. and i just think proud of our country. and i just tntnt we— proud of our country. and i just think we don't— proud of our country. and i just think we don't often— proud of our country. and i just think we don't often get- : i ti.tit. and ijust think we don't often get that neatw. — think we don't often get that really- ttt— think we don't often get that really. it's always- think we don't often get that really. l iti i l really. it's always conflict. it the reason we're not able to do that, we'll be doing best that, we'll be doing our best and hopefully eu do what and hopefully the eu do what it's difficult really . i look it's difficult really. i look for confidence and a leader. i'm looking for leadership , really looking for leadership, really looking for leadership, really looking for leadership, really looking for confidence and leadership and not quite finding it at the moment. well, that's a pretty— it at the moment. well, that's a pretty etatt— it at the moment. well, that's a pretty stark verdict— it at the moment. well, that's a pretty stark verdict from - l well, that's a pretty stark verdict from our teapte-e— pretty stark verdict from our people's panel— pretty stark verdict from our people's panel today . pretty stark verdict from our people's panel today. i'm going to eent— people's panel today. i'm going to eent tt— people's panel today. i'm going to send it back— people's panel today. i'm going to send it back over to camilla in to send it back over to camilla tn tne— to send it back over to camilla in the studio.— to send it back over to camilla in the studio. be— to send it back over to camilla in the studio. be fascinating. neat— in the studio. be fascinating. neat tne— in the studio. be fascinating. hear the next— in the studio. be fascinating. hear the next interview. thank you— hear the next interview. thank you wen— hear the next interview. thank you very nwan— hear the next interview. thank you very much for— hear the next interview. thank you very much for that, olivia. teat.— you very much for that, olivia. wean. tt-e— you very much for that, olivia. wean. tt-e nat— you very much for that, olivia. yeah, it's not a— you very much for that, olivia. yeah, it's not a ringing- yeah, it's not a ringing endorsement of tory government, is it really the under confidence our confidence that we have in our leadership to solve one crisis, which immigration ? now, if

which is immigration? now, if you to join the panel you want to join the panel next week, .com forward week, go to gb news .com forward slash panel. we've changed our address and you can apply there now. i'm delighted to joined now. i'm delighted to be joined by nicholls, who's by charlotte nicholls, who's the labour warrington north. labour mp for warrington north. she's serious she's raised some serious concerns about the treatment of female mps in parliament. charlotte let me just start with a simple question are female mps safe enough to work in parliament? idon't safe enough to work in parliament? i don't think that tenate— parliament? i don't think that tenate atte— parliament? i don't think that female mps are,— parliament? i don't think that female mps are, but- parliament? i don't think that female mps are, but i- 37�*5�*1 7 i don't think that female mps are, but i think that the female mps are, but i think that tne peapte— female mps are, but i think that tne peapte tnat— female mps are, but i think that the people that are most at risk are parliamentary— the people that are most at risk are parliamentary staff, pantawtatw— are parliamentary staff, particularly young women and young— particularly young women and young gay— particularly young women and young gay men— particularly young women and young gay men or men. 37�*til”tf.tiil young gay men or men. perceived to young gay men or men. perceived ta ta— young gay men or men. perceived ta ta gav— young gay men or men. perceived to be gay who have the least power in the institution, the most at risk and have the least form of redress of any of us. and you've raised concerns pantawtan— and you've raised concerns particular about— and you've raised concerns particular about your own party's— particular about your own party's handling of misconduct aanptatnte— party's handling of misconduct aanptatnte at— party's handling of misconduct complaints of sexual abuse aanptatnte— complaints of sexual abuse complaints. that's obviously tattawtnt— complaints. that's obviously following gareth davies being tnweettaatet— following gareth davies being investigated. do— following gareth davies being investigated. do you think that tapew— investigated. do you think that tataw nae— investigated. do you think that labour has got— investigated. do you think that labour has got a— investigated. do you think that labour has got a woman problem or labour has got a woman problem an a nwpaanew— labour has got a woman problem or a hypocrisy problem? what's the or a hypocrisy problem? what's tne teat— or a hypocrisy problem? what's the deal here— or a hypocrisy problem? what's the deal here with— or a hypocrisy problem? what's the deal here with your own party?— the deal here with your own panw t— the deal here with your own panwe t tntnt—

the deal here with your own party? i think the issue of eat— party? i think the issue of sexual harassment and sexual nteaantwat— sexual harassment and sexual nteaantwat te— sexual harassment and sexual misconduct is unfortunately tatet— misconduct is unfortunately tatet tnta— misconduct is unfortunately baked into every single part of new— baked into every single part of new tne— baked into every single part of how the institution of westminster operates. \tit how the institution of— westminster operates. no party has atean— westminster operates. no party has clean hands on this, but one of the things that i'm concerned aboutis of the things that i'm concerned about is that i do expect my own party to be better. and we're not having the ability to have the moral high ground at the moment because we can't even keep own house in order. keep our own house in order. and on level and on a personal level and a professional level, i find it deeply, deeply upsetting and frankly, if people aren't willing to call their own parties out, but they're willing to at other to point fingers at other parties , you don't actually parties, you don't actually care about sexual harassment or sexual misconduct. you care about scoring political points and charlotte, when you say that about keeping your own house in order, what do you mean? that women forward order, what do you mean? thati women _forward .they're order, what do you mean? thati wortaking.forward-they're : t:tit 7 that wortaking seriouslyd they're : t:tit 7 that wortaking seriously dodi they're : t:tit 7 that wortaking seriously dodi their're not taking seriously dodi their tattet— not taking seriously dodi their tattet att— not taking seriously dodi their fobbed off their— not taking seriously dodi their fobbed off their told oh, well, unfortunately— fobbed off their told oh, well, unfortunately that's just what westminster— unfortunately that's just what westminster is— unfortunately that's just what westminster is like. what's the eeat— westminster is like. what's the sort-environment— westminster is like. what's the sort environment you do sort of environment if you do mate—e- sort of environment if you do mate—e t- sort of environment if you do make_? i think. sort of environment if you do. make_? i think the make a complaint? i think the an— make a complaint? i think the tntnt— make a complaint? i think the tntnt te— make a complaint? i think the main thing is that within westminster— main thing is that within westminster our whips , the party

westminster our whips, the party as an institution— westminster our whips, the party as an institution and westminster as an institution nttee— westminster as an institution hides behind— westminster as an institution hides behind processes that tan-t— hides behind processes that tan-t watt— hides behind processes that don't work as— hides behind processes that don't work as a— hides behind processes that don't work as a reason for tnaattan— don't work as a reason for tnaattan . — don't work as a reason for inaction . when- don't work as a reason for inaction . �*ft’iti�* sti;iti; don't work as a reason for inaction . sti;iti; don't work as a reason for- inaction . when there have been inaction. when there have been concerns raised about a number of colleagues over a very long penod of colleagues over a very long period and the party have always said that they can't do anything about it. in the absence of a formal complaint. about it. in the absence of a formal complaint . and yet, formal complaint. and yet, miraculously, when on the news about gerent broke the other day, the party were able to take action and suspend him before for a formal complaint had been made . so when they haven't done made. so when they haven't done that in other cases that they know full well about, they're choosing not to act. but when you say full well about i mean, obviously we know situations where there are rumours that precede a complaint, but you do have to wait for the complaint to be lodged. otherwise we might enter— to be lodged. otherwise we might enter-tentat— to be lodged. otherwise we might enter-territory where- enter into territory where some atte— enter into territory where some me ae— enter into territory where some me twet— enter into territory where some mps are just the— enter into territory where some mps are just the victim of a pattttaat— mps are just the victim of a political witch— mps are just the victim of a political witch hunt . i don't political witch hunt. i don't tntnt— political witch hunt. i don't tntnt tnat— political witch hunt. i don't think that is— political witch hunt. i don't think that is the case. 't: political witch hunt. i don't think that is the case. ' t: think that is the case. and one of think that is the case. and one at tne— think that is the case. and one of the things that we do see is that because of the way that the systems in westminster, as i

said, three failing systems, you have the independent complaints and grievance scheme, which is the parliamentary scheme , you the parliamentary scheme, you have the party scheme and you have the party scheme and you have going to the police as your opfions have going to the police as your options you experienced options. if you have experienced something. but one of the main issues with all three of those things is that unless the person that it directly happened to is willing to make a report, and there's a million reasons why someone might not feel able to at the time that it happens, even people who witnessed it aren't able to come forward, let alone people who have been told something by another person about what someone did to them. you can't unknow that information, but you're not empowered to do anything with it through those structures and systems that we've got . and systems that we've got. and that's the thing that makes people really unsafe within westminster because you know about people that are predators , frankly. yes. and they are allowed to continue walking about the place because sometimes their victims are so scared of coming forward . and

scared of coming forward. and that effectively they've got free reign to continue doing it. charlotte, i can hear in your watae— charlotte, i can hear in your new— charlotte, i can hear in your voice how passionate you are atawt— voice how passionate you are atawt tnte— voice how passionate you are about this issue— voice how passionate you are about this issue and how peneanattw— about this issue and how personally you- about this issue and how personally you are feeling it. nave— personally you are feeling it. have you— personally you are feeling it. have you personally been failed by tne— have you personally been failed by tne ewetene— have you personally been failed by the system? can you tell me anwtntng— by the system? can you tell me anything—without- anything about that without tntwttnt— anything about that withouti intruding—your anything about that without- intruding_your own intruding too much into your own pnwaaw— intruding too much into your own pnwaaw 7— intruding too much into your own pnwaaw a wean— intruding too much into your own pnwaaw 7 eat t— intruding too much into your own privacy ? yeah i mean, i've privacy? yeah i mean, i've nateet— privacy? yeah i mean, i've raised concerns- privacy? yeah i mean, i've raised concerns with my whips atawt— raised concerns with my whips atawt a— raised concerns with my whips about a number— raised concerns with my whips about a number of colleagues twe— about a number of colleagues i've mentioned— about a number of colleagues i've mentioned previously that wnen— i've mentioned previously that wnen t— i've mentioned previously that wnen t ttet— i've mentioned previously that when i first came— i've mentioned previously that when i first came into parliament,- when i first came into parliament, i- when i first came into parliament, i was given a list of parliament, i was given a list at atawt— parliament, i was given a list at atawt eo— parliament, i was given a list of about 30 mps— parliament, i was given a list of about 30 mps to stay away tan— of about 30 mps to stay away tan . — of about 30 mps to stay away tan . tnte— of about 30 mps to stay away from . this was— of about 30 mps to stay away from . ii of about 30 mps to stay away from . i from. this was people that i should never accept a drink from, should never be alone with , should never a car with , should never get in a car with or lift with. and this was or in a lift with. and this was mps different parties, mps from all different parties, including from my own. including a handful from my own. and much as i found that and as much as i found that shocking at the time, you know, that's approximately 5% of my colleagues that i've been told that i'm not safe around. i really thought as someone who is a member of parliament and within and within the institution and hierarchy of westminster is relatively high up and protected because of that , how much worse

because of that, how much worse it would be if you're a junior member of staff, if you're an intern, if you're a junior reporter in the lobby who comes into parliament in your first week and is told the thing when you said about not accepting dnnks you said about not accepting drinks , the suggestion was being drinks, the suggestion was being that maybe there could be mps in parliament that would be spiking dnnks parliament that would be spiking drinks to make their female colleagues more vulnerable . it's colleagues more vulnerable. it's not just female colleagues . it's not just female colleagues. it's as i said, young gay men and men perceived to be gay as well . perceived to be gay as well. it's something that we have seen happen. and one of the people who is currently not allowed on the parliamentary estate , it's the parliamentary estate, it's because he was spiking people's dnnks because he was spiking people's drinks and assaulting them is booze in general a problem on the westminster estate ? do you the westminster estate? do you think, for instance,— the westminster estate? do you think, for instance, that- think, for instance, that ataanat— think, for instance, that alcohol should just not be sold in westminster— alcohol should just not be sold in westminster ?_ alcohol should just not be sold in westminster ? i— alcohol should just not be sold in westminster ? i think that in westminster? i think that were— in westminster? i think that tnene te— in westminster? i think that tnene te pan— in westminster? i think that there is part of— in westminster? i think that there is part of the issue where ataanat— there is part of the issue where alcohol does— there is part of the issue where alcohol does play— there is part of the issue where alcohol does play into it, but i tntnt— alcohol does play into it, but i think actually— alcohol does play into it, but i think actually the _ alcohol does play into it, but i think actually the systems and pnattene— think actually the systems and pnattene wn— think actually the systems and problems run much deeper than tnat. — problems run much deeper than

tnat. taw— problems run much deeper than that. you have— problems run much deeper than that. you have very— problems run much deeper than that. /tit. wig ii g that. you have very late night sittings. you have a real blurring of personal and professional boundaries . you professional boundaries. you have mps all acting as 650 individual employers for their team with no real support or oversight . all mps are oversight. all mps are considered to be self employed, which means that we're not actually accountable to anyone other than when it comes to election time. our constituent parts and all of these sorts of things bake in those problems is then when you add in the fact that the systems for redress don't work, that's a really toxic combination. but actually the majority of instances that we see of bullying, harassment and sexual harassment actually happen a long way away from parliamentary bars. i've had it where it's happened to me in meetings during the middle of the working day. i've had colleagues do things like inappropriate touching, you know, their hand on your leg or on your back or making comments towards you and on someone that , as i said, within the hierarchy of westminster is

relatively protected by virtue of being an mp. so how much worse it must be if you're someone who has less power in the institution , where you're the institution, where you're more likely to experience it and even less able to speak out when it happens. have you been discussed this in depth with the labour leader keir starmer? is he taking your concerns eenawewe— he taking your concerns seriously? what discussions have you seriously? what discussions have waw nat— seriously? what discussions have you nat wttn— seriously? what discussions have you had with him— seriously? what discussions have you had with him about this ? you had with him about this? i haven-t— you had with him about this? i tawen-t nat— you had with him about this? i haven't had any— you had with him about this? i haven't had any discussions with keir starmer about this, although i have spoken to my whips and to other party colleagues on a number of occasions. is colleagues on a number of occasions . is that because you occasions. is that because you nawen-t— occasions. is that because you nawen-t teen— occasions. is that because you haven't been able— occasions. is that because you haven't been able to- ii is that because you haven't been able to schedule a neettng—ne- haven't been able to schedule a meeting—he hasn't. meeting with him or he hasn't taken— meeting with him or he hasn't taken enawtn— meeting with him or he hasn't taken enough interest? should he tate— taken enough interest? should he take-tnteneet— taken enough interest? should he take-interestlthis- taken enough interest? should he take interest this ? take more interest in this? i tttnt— take more interest in this? i tttnt yaw— take more interest in this? i think you should— take more interest in this? i think you should take- take more interest in this? i think you should take more interest in it, as i think we should see from our parties leadership within the party. so our general secretary, for example , our governance and example, our governance and legal unit, all of these bodies that are meant to be responsible for enforcing standards, for making sure that people are behaving in a proper way because

as much as i've got tonnes of respect for journalists like esther weber and theo chikomba kat nealon and others who've been shining a light on this problem recently , it isn't their problem recently, it isn't their job to make sure that mps are behaving properly . it's our behaving properly. it's our whips, our parties and parliament that need to be doing that. yes. parliament that need to be doing that . yes. and isn't there an that. yes. and isn't there an tony— that. yes. and isn't there an irony twet— that. yes. and isn't there an irony twet ta— that. yes. and isn't there an irony just to finish- yes. and isn't there an irony just to finish that it's wewatw— irony just to finish that it's wewattw tne— irony just to finish that it's usually the female mps and tnteet— usually the female mps and indeed female— usually the female mps and indeed female journalists who entne— indeed female journalists who entne a— indeed female journalists who entne a tent— indeed female journalists who shine a light on— indeed female journalists who shine a light on these sorts of etanee— shine a light on these sorts of etanee . — shine a light on these sorts of stories . absolutely.- shine a light on these sorts of stories . ' oily ' stories. absolutely. and i hope that our male colleagues will start taking this issue much more seriously rather than leaving it to us to try to sort out. so leaving it to us to try to sort out . so thank leaving it to us to try to sort out. so thank you very much tnteet— out. so thank you very much tnteet tan— out. so thank you very much indeed for your— so thank you very much indeed for your time this nanntnt — indeed for your time this. morning. _nichols . indeed for your time this- morning.-nichols . now, morning. charlotte nichols. now, don-t— morning. charlotte nichols. now, don-t go— morning. charlotte nichols. now, don't go anywhere— morning. charlotte nichols. now, don't go anywhere because after the telegraph-s— don't go anywhere because after the telegraph's bombshell story yesterday— the telegraph's bombshell story yesterday .— the telegraph's bombshell story yesterday, rm— the telegraph's bombshell story yesterday , i'm going to be yesterday, i'm going to be speaking— yesterday, i'm going to be speaking was speaking to the mother who was spied— speaking to the mother who was spied-the— speaking to the mother who was spied _the british - spied on by the british government- spied on by the british government campaigning government for campaigning against— government for campaigning against-closures- against school closures during the

through until 7:00 this evening. gb through until 7:00 this evening. ee newe— through until 7:00 this evening. ee news ie— through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the— through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's. through until 7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's . channel gb news is the people's. channel welcome— gb news is the people's. channel welcome beek— gb news is the people's. channel welcome back to— gb news is the people's. channel welcome back to the camilla tominey— welcome back to the camilla tominey show.— welcome back to the camilla tominey show. _ welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this morning. now arlene foster former northern ireland minister and gb ireland first minister and gb news is here from 11. news presenter is here from 11. arlene, have you got coming arlene, what have you got coming up on show? and loads arlene, what have you got coming up you show? and loads arlene, what have you got coming up you shoexpect, and loads arlene, what have you got coming up you sho expect, just d loads arlene, what have you got coming up you shoexpect, just likeads as you would expect, just like your we're actually your show. so we're actually going—spiking] going to talk about spiking. i heard— going to talk about spiking. i heard interviewing. yes. heard you interviewing. yes. cherteee. — heard you interviewing. yes. charlotte. nichols heard you interviewing. yes. charlowhat nichols heard you interviewing. yes. charlowhat going chols heard you interviewing. yes. charlowhat going on ls about what was going on at westminster— about what was going on at westminster .— about what was going on at westminster . so we're looking at westminster. so we're looking at spiking—nines- westminster. so we're looking at spiking—nines i spiking because sarah dines, wee-e— spiking because sarah dines, who's campaigning who's been campaigning for a review-spiking,— who's been campaigning for a review spiking, coming review on spiking, is coming on the-looking— review on spiking, is coming on the looking forward to the show looking forward to thee,— the show looking forward to thee-ee— the show looking forward to that,-at child- the show looking forward to that, at child care. the that, looking at child care. the regulations— that, looking at child care. the regulations-being- that, looking at child care. the regulations being relaxed regulations are being relaxed and— regulations are being relaxed and mee— regulations are being relaxed and more money's been made available— and more money's been made

available through— and more money's been made available through universal crem— available through universal credit we're— available through universal credit we're going to have a look— credit we're going to have a look ee— credit we're going to have a look at that. _ credit we're going to have a look at that. we're looking look at that. and we're looking at look at that. and we're looking .e_slow. — look at that. and we're looking at_slow. we're- look at that. and we're looking. at_slow. we're looking at speed and slow. we're looking at speed and slow. we're looking at the— at speed and slow. we're looking at the-speed— at speed and slow. we're looking at the-speed-all. at the 20mph speed limit all the— at the 20mph speed limit all across the country to see if they-re— across the country to see if they're effective - across the country to see if they're effective and fast. were— they're effective and fast. were-the- they're effective and fast. we're _the isle . they're effective and fast. we're the isle of they're effective and fast. - we're-the isle of man we're going to the isle of man to we're going to the isle of man ee-eeee— we're going to the isle of man ee-eeee ene— we're going to the isle of man to races and you're doing to the tt races and you're doing the. — to the tt races and you're doing the. vee— to the tt races and you're doing this. yes. well,— to the tt races and you're doing this. yes. well, the— to the tt races and you're doing this. yes. well, the 20- to the tt races and you're doing this. “in; will m e�*" this. yes. well, the 20 mile an hour speed zones mean that many more are being fined for more people are being fined for speeding, right? correct. correct. welby, i correct. even justin welby, i think he was going at 23 miles an got done. that's an hour and he got done. that's ridiculous. i'm icould ridiculous. i'm not sure i could travel— ridiculous. i'm not sure i could trtret tt— ridiculous. i'm not sure i could travel at 20mph.— " r: f i'm not sure i could travel at 20mph. that's another story. — travel at 20mph. that's another story. _t- travel at 20mph. that's another story. —t tttrr- story. i'm making a diary note never with never drive in a car with arlene. no, i'm joking . so arlene. no, i'm only joking. so all more to come 11. all that and more to come at 11. looking arlene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou arlene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou very arlene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou very much arlene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou very much . arlene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou very much . now,ene, all that and more to come at 11. lookinyou very much . now, i've thank you very much. now, i've been throughout been tasting it throughout the show delighted to show, and i'm delighted now to be mollie kingsley, be joined by mollie kingsley, who's founder ask them, who's founder of ask for them, who campaigned against school closures the pandemic. closures during the pandemic. now, said, this is about now, as i've said, this is about a story talking about a telegraph story talking about how the counter—disinformation unit , that's the government's unit, that's the government's unit, that's the government's unit looking into people who are perhaps critical or sceptical of lockdown, spied on people like mollie. now, you have been mollie. now, you must have been quite shocked to have discovered that spied on, that you'd been spied on, although have your although did you have your suspicions that there was monitoring of your social media

activity? yeah i mean, i think by activity? yeah i mean, i think ty tre— activity? yeah i mean, i think ty the tree— activity? yeah i mean, i think by the tree we— activity? yeah i mean, i think by the time we found- fri , car? / i mean, i think by the time we found out that really— by the time we found out that really-surprise. - by the time we found out that really-surprise. it. by the time we found out that. really-surprise. it was really wasn't a surprise. it was terrors— really wasn't a surprise. it was obvious really— really wasn't a surprise. it was obvious really for— really wasn't a surprise. it was obvious really for quite a while, particularly during 2021. in what way , though, did you in what way, though, did you feel that messages weren't getting the. yeah, there was no treettert. — getting the. yeah, there was no trtettert. art— getting the. yeah, there was no traction. and i— getting the. yeah, there was no traction. and i mean,- getting the. yeah, there was no traction. and i mean, the first point is it wasn't just me. i mean, there was quite a big group think, who became group of us, i think, who became aware, from us for them aware, not just from us for them actually, but, you know, a group of dissident journalists actually, but, you know, a group of outspoken dent journalists actually, but, you know, a group of outspoken critics)urnalists actually, but, you know, a group of outspoken critics wh0rlists actually, but, you know, a group of outspoken critics who might and outspoken critics who might have in that group. have been in that group. i suspect you might have professor carl been carl henaghan would have been another . anyone sort of another you. anyone sort of retent— another you. anyone sort of retetrtg anv— another you. anyone sort of voicing any concerns- anyone sort of voicing any concerns about the efficacy— voicing any concerns about the efficacy et— voicing any concerns about the efficacy of face— voicing any concerns about the efficacy of face masks over mass tteetrttttert — efficacy of face masks over mass tteetrttttert et— efficacy of face masks over mass vaccination of children and not, by the— vaccination of children and not, by the wet,— vaccination of children and not, by the wet, tr— vaccination of children and not, by the wet, tr e— vaccination of children and not, by the way, in a conspiracy theory— by the way, in a conspiracy theory wry,— by the way, in a conspiracy theory wry, teet— by the way, in a conspiracy theory way, just saying, is it rtgtt— theory way, just saying, is it rtgtt treet— theory way, just saying, is it right that we're— theory way, just saying, is it right that we're vaccinating retre— right that we're vaccinating year— right that we're vaccinating nine year olds_ right that we're vaccinating nine year olds each equally, peette— nine year olds each equally, peepte wte— nine year olds each equally, people who were talking about whether— people who were talking about whether schools _ people who were talking about whether schools should be closed at atte— whether schools should be closed at atte .— whether schools should be closed at atte . retre— whether schools should be closed at all? i mean, these are people wttt— at all? i mean, these are people wtttt perteetty— at all? i mean, these are people with perfectly valid opinions. were— with perfectly valid opinions. were not— with perfectly valid opinions. we're not talking about extremists— we're not talking about extremists here sending out ttt—vex— extremists here sending out anti—vax messages . \rr:::r extremists here sending out anti—vax messages. \r:::r ”c; anti—vax messages. no, no, we're not.— anti—vax messages. no, no, we're not. and actually, it's really interesting that you use that word extreme , because actually,

word extreme, because actually, what i would say is that many of us were arguing really for the moderate position. so you know, before 2020, if you had talked about isolating children, buy themselves for weeks on end, if you talked about masking children for eight hours, you know, each day, including in lessons, and if you talked about giving children, you know, a novel medical intervention, when there was no real benefit for many of those children. well actually, that would have been considered an extreme position. and what i feel we were doing, you know, am i ask for them colleagues, was saying, whoa , colleagues, was saying, whoa, you uke colleagues, was saying, whoa, you like this, this you know, no, like this, this isn't right. the reasonable position here is, is to challenge is to ask for the evidence and is to say, you know, have harms been considered and actually, it was that view that i think we're seeing was, well, we know it was being spied on.andi well, we know it was being spied on. and i think we can infer that there must have been some suppression, suppression . i suppression, suppression. i mean, we know that. so our facebook group are us for them facebook group are us for them facebook group, quite frequently

had slapped on it had warnings slapped on it saying, know, you are saying, you know, you are circulate saying you're letting false information into the group. was posted group. one example was we posted a daily mail article. so this is an article that had been in mainstream and the article had been about masking children and a potential link between carbon dioxide levels, dioxide levels and face masks on kids. and we shared that. and we'd had a warning slapped on the group saying, you know, your group is in of being lost. your in danger of being lost. your group's suppressed, group's being suppressed, which means won't see means other members won't see it. know, we know it. so, you know, we know that kind place. kind of suppression took place. likewise on twitter, i think many us felt it was very odd many of us felt it was very odd that we were saying things that were having awful of were having an awful lot of traction looked so, traction, it looked like. so, you tweets were being you know, tweets that were being retweeted maybe hundreds of times numbers times and yet follower numbers never was very weird never went up. it was very weird . i mean, we're used to kind of eeetrtg— . i mean, we're used to kind of eeetrtg tteeertt— i mean, we're used to kind of seeing dissent twitter seeing dissent on twitter teettee— seeing dissent on twitter because that seeing dissent on twitter bec probably that seeing dissent on twitter bec probably largely that seeing dissent on twitter bec probably largely left that it's probably largely left tetrtrte. — it's probably largely left leaning. _left. it's probably largely left- leaning.-left seemed it's probably largely left- leaning. _left seemed to leaning. and the left seemed to go leaning. and the left seemed to ee-teettewrt- leaning. and the left seemed to go-lockdown on- go with full lockdown on eterette— go with full lockdown on steroids. and _ go with full lockdown on steroids. and people who are et— steroids. and people who are et t— steroids. and people who are more of a conservative stroke , more of a conservative stroke, rtett— more of a conservative stroke, rtgtt wing— more of a conservative stroke, right wing persuasion were tttttre— right wing persuasion were tttttrelttt— right wing persuasion were talking bit more about civil talking a bit more about civil ttterttee— talking a bit more about civil liberties and— talking a bit more about civil liberties and all— talking a bit more about civil

liberties and all of these concerns. the— liberties and all of these concerns. the government , it concerns. the government, it etettt— concerns. the government, it etettt te— concerns. the government, it should be stressed, denying should be stressed, is denying that— should be stressed, is denying that secret— should be stressed, is denying that social media— should be stressed, is denying that social media posts were teeterert— that social media posts were doctored, deleted or indeed, i tttrtt— doctored, deleted or indeed, i tttrtt tre— doctored, deleted or indeed, i think the word— doctored, deleted or indeed, i think the word is— doctored, deleted or indeed, i think the word is shadowbanned , think the word is shadowbanned, but think the word is shadowbanned, ttt tt— think the word is shadowbanned, ttt tt te— think the word is shadowbanned, ttt tt te ettte— think the word is shadowbanned, but it is quite sinister to know that— but it is quite sinister to know that secret— but it is quite sinister to know that social media— but it is quite sinister to know that social media companies collaborated— that social media companies collaborated with the government over monitoring. _ collaborated with the government over monitoring. yes, it is etrtteter. — over monitoring. yes, it is sinister. and— over monitoring. yes, it is sinister. and i- over monitoring. yes, it is sinister. 'r: over monitoring. yes, it is- sinister. and i think, you know, although many of us knew it would happen, when i saw the list. so and i've got it here. i don't know if it's picks up on the you it's the camera, but you can see it's pages long. this was pages long. and this this was mainly organisations mainly that the organisations that monitored, this that were monitored, this was just this was just my just me. so this was just my comments , most of which were comments, most of which were either in mainstream press or articles , some of them on articles, some of them on twitter. and you know, this is just one journalist and it's not even like i have a huge profile compared to many who would have been monitored and i think what strikes about is it's strikes me about this is it's like and like what we've found out and what piece what the telegraph piece yesterday was probably what the telegraph piece yesttip ay was probably what the telegraph piece yesttip of was probably what the telegraph piece yesttip of vast was probably what the telegraph piece yesttip of vast iceberg.)bably what the telegraph piece yesttip of vast iceberg. weily the tip of this vast iceberg. we only know this because a few of us submitted freedom of information act requests, essentially , and you subject essentially, and you subject access requests. you wanted to tnt— access requests. you wanted to ttt-meet— access requests. you wanted to find - much data -

access requests. you wanted to find - much data the . find out how much data the government— find out how much data the government-you. government held on you individually— government held on you individually you individually and what did you tnt— individually and what did you ttrtt-tttte — individually and what did you find _that? well,- individually and what did you find that? i�*iw�*uju individually and what did you find that? �*ftr�*rzgc find out on that? well, this is what you out. just find out on that? well, this isi what you _out. just your what you found out. just your whole what you found out. just your wrote—artl whole list of references. and if you— whole list of references. and if yet-veer.— whole list of references. and if yet-veer. tt— whole list of references. and if yet-veer. tt vou- whole list of references. and if you-yeah, if you look. whole list of references. and if. you-yeah, if you look and you look. yeah, if you look and i've a few so it's i've circled a few and so it's all comments that all sorts of comments that you've about schools you've made about schools or overreacting the covid risk. overreacting to the covid risk. that a telegraph article that was a telegraph article treet— that was a telegraph article. tttt—tteggtrg that you wrote. you're flagging teete— that you wrote. you're flagging again, concerns— that you wrote. you're flagging again, concerns over face masks, whether— again, concerns over face masks, whether they— again, concerns over face masks, whether they work— again, concerns over face masks, whether they work or not. i mean, there's— whether they work or not. i mean, there's nothing particularly- mean, there's nothing particularly controversial here. wett— particularly controversial here. wett. t— particularly controversial here. wett. t tet— particularly controversial here. wett. t ttt et— particularly controversial here. well, a lot of it— particularly controversial here. well, a lot of it is— particularly controversial here. well, a lot of it is unpalatable opinions. you know, some of it, i'd say, is fact. so on some occasions and actually my one of my directors, i mean , this is my directors, i mean, this is just one of my directors got flagged . and i'm just going to flagged. and i'm just going to read out actually, because flagged. and i'm just going to read it'sut actually, because flagged. and i'm just going to read it's reallyrally, because flagged. and i'm just going to read it's really interesting.;e i think it's really interesting. she she been contacted she said she had been contacted by parents from more than 100 schools, that's fact. it schools, so that's a fact. it was reported in was in an article reported in the telegraph arabella the telegraph and arabella skinner, said skinner, my colleague, had said parents totally distraught skinner, my colleague, had said paretheir totally distraught skinner, my colleague, had said pare their children'instraught skinner, my colleague, had said pare their children's schools t that their children's schools have they will continue have decided they will continue with masks in class with no end in was in 2022, so in sight. this was in 2022, so this was fact and it was a strong opinion from one of my directors. and actually what the government is flagging here or what this is flagging is

what this unit is flagging is opinions unpalatable . opinions which are unpalatable. well, you know, this isn't misinformation. you well, you know, this isn't misinformation . you know, also misinformation. you know, also tre— misinformation. you know, also ttte te— misinformation. you know, also ttte te pretty— misinformation. you know, also this is pretty innocuous- misinformation. you know, also this is pretty innocuous .- " you know, also this is pretty innocuous . molly this is pretty innocuous. molly kingsley— this is pretty innocuous. molly kingsley-i5— this is pretty innocuous. molly kingsley is indefensible kingsley says it is indefensible treet— kingsley says it is indefensible that children's— kingsley says it is indefensible that children's are still that children's lives are still not— that children's lives are still net-te— that children's lives are still not-to normal- that children's lives are still not to normal when that children's lives are still not-to normal when rest not back to normal when the rest of not back to normal when the rest et-te— not back to normal when the rest et-te .— not back to normal when the rest et-te . stre— not back to normal when the rest of-is . she urges- of society is. she urges ministers— of society is. she urges ministers to— of society is. she urges ministers to make a clear statement— ministers to make a clear statement children's statement that children's extracurricular- statement that children's extracurricular activities etettt— extracurricular activities should subject to should not be subject to additional— should not be subject to additional kerbs. and if you've tre— additional kerbs. and if you've seen the date— additional kerbs. and if you've seen the date that you know that is seen the date that you know that te ttte — seen the date that you know that te ttte etxttt — seen the date that you know that is the sixth of— seen the date that you know that is the sixth of the— seen the date that you know that is the sixth of the second 2022. so, is the sixth of the second 2022. so. you— is the sixth of the second 2022. so. you knew.— is the sixth of the second 2022. so, you know, this— is the sixth of the second 2022. so, you know, this is— is the sixth of the second 2022. so, you know, this is kids- is the sixth of the second 2022. so, you know, this is kids lives have been disrupted by two years. i know. it's unbelievable . isn't it going to take any retort— . isn't it going to take any retort eter— . isn't it going to take any action over this?- isn't it going to take any action over this? what position are action over this? what position yet— action over this? what position you re— action over this? what position yer trt wttt— action over this? what position are you in with regard sort are you in with regard to sort of_governmentl of holding the government to account—could. account on this? you could- recommend—baroness recommend perhaps that baroness tottett— recommend perhaps that baroness hallett-negates— hallett invest negates the coter— hallett invest negates thei counter_ unit hallett invest negates the . counter_ unit in counter disinformation unit in as counter disinformation unit in to port— counter disinformation unit in to port ot— counter disinformation unit in to port ot the— counter disinformation unit in as part of the covid inquiry? veer — as part of the covid inquiry? veer wett— as part of the covid inquiry? veer wett. .— as part of the covid inquiry? yeah well, i mean- as part of the covid inquiry? yeah well, i mean i- as part of the covid inquiry? yeah iriy�*bicc " yeah well, i mean i think i think she has to and i think the problem you can't think she has to and i think the problrcensorship. you can't think she has to and i think the problrcensorship. and'ou can't think she has to and i think the problrcensorship. and i'm:an't think she has to and i think the problrcensorship. and i'm afraid undo censorship. and i'm afraid that the stark reality is that for the best part of two years, we have been living under this condition where one narrative appears to have been being amplified. so you know, that's a separate issue. but we know that

certain news outlets, including the bbc, as you said, have taken a pro lockdown view, not a very pro lockdown view, not platforming people perhaps who are dissenters , bearing in mind are dissenters, bearing in mind as well that the bbc had a role in this counter disinformation unit for them. what do you make of unit for them. what do you make ot trott— unit for them. what do you make ot that? the— unit for them. what do you make of that? the state _ c. " c what do you make of that? the state broadcasters trtrotret— of that? the state broadcasters trtrotret tr— of that? the state broadcasters involved in this? _ of that? the state broadcasters involved in this? “if" of that? the state broadcasters involved in this? / c involved in this? yeah, it's interesting , isn't it? and it interesting, isn't it? and it it's sinister. i think this is where it all gets very, very murky. and i think so i think it does need to investigate this. i think there must be accountability . the first thing accountability. the first thing is we actually don't really know. you know, we're guessing really, we? know, we really, aren't we? you know, we can see were but as can see we were spied on. but as to translated, if to how much that translated, if at all, into actual censorship, censorship , we don't know. we censorship, we don't know. we need to understand that. we also need to understand that. we also need understand, think , who need to understand, i think, who within government sanctioned this? i mean, i find it quite incredible to think that this wasn't sanctioned at ministerial level . surely it must have been. level. surely it must have been. but i don't think we've yet heard a minister come out and said, was my said, you know, this was my brain child. no, someone needs said, you know, this was my brrexplaini. no, someone needs said, you know, this was my brrexplain . no, someone needs said, you know, this was my brrexplain . and someone needs said, you know, this was my brrexplain . and lymeone needs said, you know, this was my brrexplain . and i think e needs said, you know, this was my

brrexplain . and i think onlyeds to explain. and i think only when we have the full facts can we can we work out what to do about it seem to me about it. but it does seem to me that this is that on its face, this is absolutely the absolutely anathema to the principles liberal democracy principles of liberal democracy and free speech. i mean, what is going just in terms of going on here just in terms of your personal life and the impact on your family? what has being a lockdown— impact on your family? what has being a lockdown sceptic- thri cit" ” car? what has being a lockdown sceptic done for being a lockdown sceptic done tor yore— being a lockdown sceptic done tor yore .— being a lockdown sceptic done for you? i appreciate that you-re— for you? i appreciate that vote mote— for you? i appreciate that you've made some friends on that trot— you've made some friends on that ttrtt ot— you've made some friends on that ttrtt ot trtrtee— you've made some friends on that kind of fringe of— you've made some friends on that kind of fringe of the— you've made some friends on that kind of fringe of the debate, ttt— kind of fringe of the debate, ttt equato— kind of fringe of the debate, ttt equally .— kind of fringe of the debate, but equally i know that you've entered— but equally i know that you've ertttret o— but equally i know that you've endured a lot— but equally i know that you've endured a lot of— but equally i know that you've endured a lot of abuse on social metro— endured a lot of abuse on social metro ort— endured a lot of abuse on social metro trot tt— endured a lot of abuse on social media and it can't— endured a lot of abuse on social media and it can't have been easy— media and it can't have been easy you— media and it can't have been easy you troy,— media and it can't have been easy, you know, mean it's been easy, you know, i mean it's been prototy— easy, you know, i mean it's been orototty tott— easy, you know, i mean it's been probably both the— easy, you know, i mean it's been probably both the most sort of overwhelmingly— probably both the most sort of overwhelmingly amazing and also trtcretttty— overwhelmingly amazing and also incredibly stressful— overwhelmingly amazing and also incredibly stressful experience of incredibly stressful experience ot my— incredibly stressful experience ot my ttte. — incredibly stressful experience ot my ttte. .— incredibly stressful experience of my life. i mean- incredibly stressful experience of my life. " " incredibly stressful experience of my life. " b c of my life. i mean, in a way, it has been an enormous privilege . has been an enormous privilege. like, i think that is how i see it. and know, i've it. and you know, i've i've always like i am a mum. always thought like i am a mum. speaking of parents speaking up for kids, i'm, you also, for kids, i'm, you know, also, i guess now a journalist. but actually speaking of actually speaking on behalf of so parents. so you know, it so many parents. so you know, it there's been that whole aspect of it and just bringing together this network thousands of this network of thousands of parents, all of whom just felt

something had gone so wrong for children's welfare. so that has been amazing. i think at times it has been unbearably stressful. i think during 2021, particularly with the kids vaccine rollout, i was very, very aware that something there was it felt like something was very wrong about that. the government process with the vai was extremely unorthodox and it was extremely unorthodox and it was really horrid being in the middle of that. i mean, the government— middle of that. i mean, the government would- r:r:r::; i mean, the government would counteract that argument— government would counteract that argumemt ty— government would counteract that argument by saying, government would counteract that argument by saying , look, yes, argument by saying, look, yes, it. accelerated _ argument by saying, look, yes, it-accelerated ,_ argument by saying, look, yes, it accelerated , but all of it was accelerated, but all of me— it was accelerated, but all of me mett— it was accelerated, but all of the right protocols were tottouet— the right protocols were followed many children followed. many children have teem— followed. many children have been-vaccinated- followed. many children have been vaccinated and et been safely vaccinated and et cetera— been safely vaccinated and et cetera. i cetera. _ been safely vaccinated and et cetera. cetera. and just in cetera. et cetera. and just in regard— cetera. et cetera. and just in regard to— cetera. et cetera. and just in regard to this— cetera. et cetera. and just in regard to this particular story, to cort— regard to this particular story, to sort ot— regard to this particular story, to sort of conclude what do you tmtmt— to sort of conclude what do you tmmt mac— to sort of conclude what do you think has been— to sort of conclude what do you think has been the— to sort of conclude what do you think has been the effect of tocttorm— think has been the effect of lockdown children? think has been the effect of lockdown-children? was lockdown on children? there was an mterectmg— lockdown on children? there was an interesting-the- an interesting article in the spectator,— an interesting article in the spectator, written by spectator, i think written by mary— spectator, i think written by mary wakefield— spectator, i think written by mary wakefield in the week tattmg— mary wakefield in the week talking about— mary wakefield in the week talking about increased levels of talking about increased levels ot amatety— talking about increased levels of anxiety and— talking about increased levels of anxiety and depression. i tmtmt— of anxiety and depression. i tmmt we— of anxiety and depression. i think we can— of anxiety and depression. i think we can also put that down to rematc— think we can also put that down to perhaps me— think we can also put that down to perhaps the proliferation of coctat— to perhaps the proliferation of social media.— to perhaps the proliferation of social media. but in general, mou— social media. but in general, tour to— social media. but in general, tour to you— social media. but in general, how do you think children are tarma— how do you think children are faring-being— how do you think children are faring being covid faring after being that covid generator— faring after being that covid generation in— faring after being that covid generation in i— faring after being that covid generation in i think it really

tepente— generation in i think it really teoemtc om— generation in i think it really depends on the— generation in i think it really depends on the child. " depends on the child. i mean, toot.— depends on the child. i mean, toot. ome— depends on the child. i mean, look, some children will bounce back , have bounce back, i'm sure back, have bounce back, i'm sure are absolutely fine . and i think are absolutely fine. and i think we that there are many we know that there are many children are not children who are not fine. i mean we children lost mean, we know children lost their know, behind their lives. you know, behind closed all closed doors, all the safeguarding risks. so i think i don't think it's possible to give like a kind of cookie cutter, answer . cutter, cookie cutter answer. but i do think you have identify died one of the key worries that many of us have coming out of the whole lockdown period , which the whole lockdown period, which is actually when you put children behind a screen and you normalise that for the best part of a year and a half, two years, we've set up a really nasty trend and a kind of normalisation that actually school and teachers and actually socialisation can be replaced with a screen. so i think many of us leave this period very worried about that. final thought. worried about that. final tmougmt. rte— : final thought. it's amazing, isn't it? amt— thought. it's amazing, isn't it?| and—campaigners and it's thanks to campaigners ute— and it's thanks to campaigners like-children- and it's thanks to campaigners like-children have- like you that children have actuatty— like you that children have actually included in actually been included in- baroness—because baroness hallett inquiry because mtttatty— baroness hallett inquiry because tmtttatty trey— baroness hallett inquiry because initially they-even- initially they weren't even going— initially they weren't even going-childrenl initially they weren't even going children . initially they weren't even i going-children . i going to look at children. i mou— going to look at children. i mow me— going to look at children. i know the reaction and the result on know the reaction and the result or acute.— know the reaction and the result or atuttc. me— know the reaction and the result on adults. the terms of reference didn't mention the wort— reference didn't mention the

word-once and- reference didn't mention the- word _once and .just word children once and that just tettc— word children once and that just tettc-you— word children once and that just tells-you need- word children once and that just tells-you need to- word children once and that just tells you need to know tells you all you need to know about—wroug- about what goes wrong for policymakers— about what goes wrong for policymakers ,_ about what goes wrong for policymakers , kids this policymakers, for kids in this country. — policymakers, for kids in this country. matty— policymakers, for kids in this country. molly kinsley, thank you for in you very much for coming in and discussing this for discussing all this and for sharing paperwork us. sharing that paperwork with us. it's . now, it's fascinating stuff. now, comme— it's fascinating stuff. now, coming upr— it's fascinating stuff. now, coming up, she- it's fascinating stuff. now, coming up, she was cruelly tuttet— coming up, she was cruelly tuttet a— coming up, she was cruelly dubbed a human barbie by the tattottc— dubbed a human barbie by the tabloids and— dubbed a human barbie by the tabloids and was— dubbed a human barbie by the tabloids and was known as the most— tabloids and was known as the most-enhanced- tabloids and was known as the most enhanced woman most surgically enhanced woman in britain. but now cindy ractcom— in britain. but now cindy jackson taking on the plastic jackson is taking on the plastic surgery— jackson is taking on the plastic surgery-.— jackson is taking on the plastic surgery-. ttt- jackson is taking on the plastic surgery-. ttt te- surgery industry. i'll be cpeattme— surgery industry. i'll be cpeattmg to— surgery industry. i'll be speaking to in just a surgery industry. i'll be- speaking to-in just a moment speaking to her in just a moment about— speaking to her in just a moment atout mer— speaking to her in just a moment about her mue— speaking to her in just a moment about her new book, how not to get about her new book, how not to cet eotcmet. — about her new book, how not to get botched. don't— about her new book, how not to get botched. don't anywhere . get botched. don't go anywhere. wett— get botched. don't go anywhere. wet-tact— get botched. don't go anywhere. me-ttltact .—

gb news the people's . channel gb news the people's. channel welcome back to the camilla tominey show. and i've been tootme— tominey show. and i've been looking forward _ tominey show. and i've been looking forward to— "er and i've been looking forward to this mtervteu— looking forward to this interview for- looking forward to this interview for the whole the interview for the whole of the arrow— show because i'm joined now by smtt — show because i'm joined now by smtt ractcom— show because i'm joined now by sindi jackson .— show because i'm joined now by sindi jackson . she's just sindi jackson. she's just urtttem— sindi jackson. she's just written - book - sindi jackson. she's just written-book how written a new book called how not— written a new book called how not to— written a new book called how not to cet— written a new book called how not to get- now,- written a new book called how not to get now, sindi, not to get botched. now, sindi, i not to get botched. now, sindi, t-you-te— not to get botched. now, sindi, t-you-ve mat— not to get botched. now, sindi, i you've had various i know you've had various momtterc— i know you've had various monikers over— i know you've had various monikers over the years in the tattoo— monikers over the years in the tabloid _whichl monikers over the years in the. tabloid _which you tabloid press, many of which you just tabloid press, many of which you rust—tout- tabloid press, many of which you rust—tout ute- tabloid press, many of which you just—don't like ,. just reject and you don't like, teccrttet— just reject and you don't like, described as— just reject and you don't like, described as a— just reject and you don't like, described as a human. barbie oeoote— described as a human. barbie pebble ctartet— described as a human. barbie people started tottering totter ing people started tottering totter me ”p— people started tottering totter me up mou— people started tottering totter ing up how many procedures you had ing up how many procedures you mat .— ing up how many procedures you mat . eet-c— ing up how many procedures you mat . tet-c rust— ing up how many procedures you mat . tet-c tuct go— ing up how many procedures you had . let's just go back to the had. let's just go back to the beginning— had. let's just go back to the beginning when— had. let's just go back to the beginning when you had your first— beginning when you had your trot—wry- beginning when you had your first_why was- beginning when you had your first why was that? first procedure. why was that? wreat— first procedure. why was that? meat-you- first procedure. why was that? wmat-you to- first procedure. why was that? what-you to want. first procedure. why was that? what you to want to what motivated you to want to get surgery— what motivated you to want to get surgery m— what motivated you to want to get surgery m tre— what motivated you to want to get surgery in the first place? i get surgery in the first place? . tmmt— get surgery in the first place? . tmmt tact— get surgery in the first place? i think back in— get surgery in the first place? i think back in the 1980s, right tact—yes- i think back in the 1980s, right tact—yes tt- i think back in the 1980s, right back—yes, i'd beeni back in the 80s, yes, i'd been an back in the 80s, yes, i'd been amwa—s- an art student and i was well mat— an art student and i was well that my— an art student and i was well aware that my proportions and my tace— aware that my proportions and my tace mot— aware that my proportions and my face were not attractive in terms— face were not attractive in terms ot— face were not attractive in terms of artistic . iriy�*bicc face were not attractive in terms of artistic . iriy�*biii terms of artistic. well, we uoutu— terms of artistic. well, we would look at a person if you

were going to create a painting or a sculpture, there are certain proportions you use and certain proportions you use and certain ways you you portray your work of to art be attractive to most people. and i'd also been teased a little bit in school about my big chin and my big nose . and i decided and my big nose. and i decided using cosmetic surgery, i would change myself to look the best i possibly could. and at that time, no one had ever done this before . i was the first extreme before. i was the first extreme makeover i pioneered using surgery to completely change your looks as opposed to just having a facelift or a nose job. i had everything and you were happy with the results? i was very happy with the- , i was very happy with the results. i .— very happy with the results. i was i approached— very happy with the results. i was i approached very- was i approached very scientifically, very carefully . scientifically, very carefully. inever scientifically, very carefully. i never got botched . i never i never got botched. i never made mistakes . and i see people made mistakes. and i see people nowadays was making so many errors in judgement and listening to misinformation that it's not the way i did it. and i

would like to help people realise there are better ways there is a correct way to go about it. yes i mean one of the advantages and although you don't like the way that you've been with regard to how don't like the way that you've been proceduresth regard to how don't like the way that you've been proceduresth regarhad how don't like the way that you've been proceduresth regarhad ,|ow don't like the way that you've been proceduresth regarhad , you many procedures you've had, you have had quite a few. therefore that have had quite a few. therefore mat—untouc- that gives you a unique perspecttve— that gives you a unique perspective on how to go about tmmgs— perspective on how to go about tmmgs satety— perspective on how to go about tmmgs satety .— perspective on how to go about things safely , how to choose the things safely, how to choose the rtgmt— things safely, how to choose the rtgmt-umcm— things safely, how to choose the rtgmt-umcm ts- right surgeon, which is crtttcat— right surgeon, which is critical, and- right surgeon, which is critical, and also what your toot— critical, and also what your book covers— critical, and also what your book covers is— critical, and also what your book covers is not just the dangers— book covers is not just the dangers from _ book covers is not just the dangers from surgery, but also surgtcat— dangers from surgery, but also non surgical procedures . tell me non surgical procedures. tell me a ttttte— non surgical procedures. tell me a ttttte ttt— non surgical procedures. tell me a little bit about— non surgical procedures. tell me a little bit about how you've teem— a little bit about how you've been a— a little bit about how you've been a consultant the last, been a consultant for the last, i been a consultant for the last, t-years— been a consultant for the last, t-years os- been a consultant for the last, i-years, 35 with- i think, 35 years, 35 with geome— i think, 35 years, 35 with pebble uto— i think, 35 years, 35 with people who want to go under the cutte— people who want to go under the tmtte .— people who want to go under the tmtte .-tmt— people who want to go under the knife .-kind.advice- knife. what kind of advice do you— knife. what kind of advice do you-trem— knife. what kind of advice do you-teem amt- knife. what kind of advice do you them and what errors do you give them and what errors do they— you give them and what errors do they usuatty— you give them and what errors do they usually make?— you give them and what errors do they usually make? well, in the tegtmmg— they usually make? well, in the tegtmmg .— they usually make? well, in the tegtmmg , m— they usually make? well, in the beginning , in the— they usually make? well, in the beginning , in the in the late beginning, in the in the late egg,— beginning, in the in the late 80s urem— beginning, in the in the late 80s when .— beginning, in the in the late 80s, when i had— beginning, in the in the late 80s, when i had a lot of press coverage, because at that time, mototy— coverage, because at that time, mototy mat — coverage, because at that time, nobody had had— coverage, because at that time, nobody had had surgery. nobody had had so much surgery. nowadays.— nobody had had so much surgery. nowadays. a— nobody had had so much surgery. uouauays. a tot— nobody had had so much surgery. nowadays, a lot-people,- nowadays, a lot of people, thousands had way more than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave nds had way more than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave .ds had way more than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave . they had way more than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave . they would way more than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave . they would approache than nowadays, a lot of people, tihave . they would approach mein i have. they would approach me to find out how i did what i did and i would guide them. and usually they'd come to me without having anything done whatsoever. nowadays, people come to see me and they've already few things done

already had a few things done and more often than than not, they're not happy with everything they have done or they've botched or they they've been botched or they spent much money or they see spent too much money or they see no difference . yes. so i now no difference. yes. so i now spend a lot of the consultations i do on picking the previous treatment and trying to find a way to put it right . and that's way to put it right. and that's all new to me because , well, all new to me because, well, little by little, the number of dissatisfied patients has crept up to the point where now it's an epidemic. i mean, it's quite incredible. and when i say botched, i mean, people who have spent too much just aren't happy, who don't look any different at all the way to people who are disfigured for life. and when you say disfigured,— life. and when you say disfigured, is- e ”ti; and when you say disfigured, is that largely from surgtcat— disfigured, is that largely from surgical procedures or are we tattmg— surgical procedures or are we tattmg about— surgical procedures or are we talking about fillers because i mou— talking about fillers because i mow you— talking about fillers because i know you raise— talking about fillers because i know you raise serious concerns about— know you raise serious concerns about tttters— know you raise serious concerns about fillers in— know you raise serious concerns about fillers in the— know you raise serious concerns about fillers in the book. yes some— about fillers in the book. yes some at— about fillers in the book. yes some ot the— about fillers in the book. yes some of the worst— about fillers in the book. yes some of the worst problems i've ever seen are from permanent fillers . they can cause systemic fillers. they can cause systemic infections , which are very, very infections, which are very, very difficult to deal with. so we're not just talking— difficult to deal with. so we're not just talking about- r: i : so we're not just talking about trout tout— not just talking about trout pout mere,— not just talking about trout pout here, but— not just talking about trout pout here, but we're also

tattmg— pout here, but we're also talking about— pout here, but we're also talking about the effect on the actuat— talking about the effect on the actuat stm— talking about the effect on the actual skin and— talking about the effect on the actual skin and muscles in the tace— actual skin and muscles in the tace-emttre— actual skin and muscles in the face _entire system- actual skin and muscles in the face entire system . face and the entire system. yest— face and the entire system. yes, peopte— face and the entire system. yes, people-been- face and the entire system. yes, people-been on. face and the entire system. l yes, people-been on very yes, people have been on very strong antibiotics for years with some of these fillers . and with some of these fillers. and you have to they've had repeated surgery to them removed and surgery to have them removed and you can't always remove it when it's dispersed throughout your skin underneath the dermis. and do as these procedures do you think as these procedures have become more kind of commonplace you can commonplace these days, you can get fillers at a get botox and fillers at a beauty salon, whereas it used to beauty salon, whereas it used to be more medicalized ? and be much more medicalized? and has created this be much more medicalized? and has-created this problem- be much more medicalized? and has-created this problem ? | has that created this problem? mat-s— has that created this problem? mats-ot— has that created this problem? mats-ct tre— has that created this problem? that's-of the problem.- has that created this problem? that's-of the problem. i. that's part of the problem. i mean, is mean, the problem is multifactorial . instagram is multifactorial. instagram is a is a problem for patients who look at these before and after pictures and think those are real. they've not been filtered, some have been filtered, some have not. people are getting tttters. — have not. people are getting tttters. amt— have not. people are getting fillers. and what— people are getting fillers. and what they need is a fitter.— fillers. and what they need is a tttter. wett— fillers. and what they need is a filter. well, exactly . filter. well, exactly. but i mean, you can— filter. well, exactly. but i mean, you can buy fillers us on alibaba . you can order them alibaba. you can order them onune alibaba. you can order them online and people can set themselves up as a doctor without having any medical training and without using the

name brand products. you don't know what being injected. there was an interesting mirror- was an interesting mirror investigation— was an interesting mirror investigation the investigation today in the sumtay— investigation today in the sunday mirror— investigation today in the sunday mirror and the headline is sunday mirror and the headline ts age— sunday mirror and the headline ts age to— sunday mirror and the headline ts age 17 amt— sunday mirror and the headline is age 17 and offered lip tttters— is age 17 and offered lip fillers-no- is age 17 and offered lip fillers no checks on id 17 fillers with no checks on id 17 is fillers with no checks on id 17 ts too— fillers with no checks on id 17 ts too young— fillers with no checks on id 17 ts too young to— fillers with no checks on id 17 is too young to have fillers. tsm-t— is too young to have fillers. tsm-t rte— is too young to have fillers. isn't it? would— is too young to have fillers. isn't it? would you like to see an age— isn't it? would you like to see am age ttmtt— isn't it? would you like to see an age limit on— isn't it? would you like to see an age limit on some of these procedures— an age limit on some of these procedures-well? - an age limit on some of these procedures well? “tit; an age limit on some of these procedures well? “4115 ”rrtt; procedures as well? yes, there there— procedures as well? yes, there there should be a bit more judgement being used and common sense . yes. i mean i didn't sense. yes. i mean i didn't start— sense. yes. i mean i didn't start mavmg— yes. i mean i didn't start having anything done till i start having anything done till t—oos.- start having anything done till t—oos. mat-sl start having anything done tilli i_30s. that's not i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say— i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say taat— i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say that tt— i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say that if you _ i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say that if you if— i was in my mid 30s. that's not to say that if you if there's an tmttcattom— to say that if you if there's an indication for— to say that if you if there's an indication for something being tome,— indication for something being tome, you— indication for something being tome, you cant— indication for something being done, you can't start a bit youmger— done, you can't start a bit youmger .— done, you can't start a bit youmger . eut— done, you can't start a bit younger. but that's insane . younger. but that's insane. voumg— younger. but that's insane. voumg gtrts— younger. but that's insane. voumg gtrts m— younger. but that's insane. young girls in their teens , they young girls in their teens, they mave— young girls in their teens, they have a— young girls in their teens, they have a natural— young girls in their teens, they have a natural beauty, they have youth— have a natural beauty, they have youtm .— have a natural beauty, they have youtm , trey— have a natural beauty, they have youtm , tmey trave— have a natural beauty, they have youth , they have so many things youth, they have so many things on youth, they have so many things or metr— youth, they have so many things or met-eut— youth, they have so many things on their-but what- youth, they have so many things on their but what do you youth, they have so many things on thrabout but what do you youth, they have so many things on thrabout the jt what do you youth, they have so many things on thrabout the socialt do you youth, they have so many things on thrabout the social media u think about the social media ettect— think about the social media effect-because- think about the social media effect i : effect? because you've talked about instagram, you've talked effect? because you've talked about people am, you've talked effect? because you've talked about people am, yo to e talked effect? because you've talked about people am, yo to e taliofi about people trying to kind of achieve these completely unrealistic about how unrealistic ideals about how they particularly for they look, particularly for younger people. have we become a more narcissistic more sort of narcissistic society , do you think, where society, do you think, where people are wanting these tweakments because they're seeking perfection? actually, it's quite hard to achieve that

in it is . i it's quite hard to achieve that in it is. i don't know in anyone. it is. i don't know if in anyone. it is. i don't know tt tt-s— in anyone. it is. i don't know if it's narcissism— in anyone. it is. i don't know if it's narcissism ,_ t e i don't know if it's narcissism , narcissism if it's narcissism, narcissism or tt— if it's narcissism, narcissism or tt tt-s— if it's narcissism, narcissism or tt tt-s trymg— if it's narcissism, narcissism or if it's trying to- if it's narcissism, narcissism or if it's trying to keep up, trymg— or if it's trying to keep up, trytmg .— or if it's trying to keep up, trytmg . rt-s— or if it's trying to keep up, trying . it's the— or if it's trying to keep up, trying . it's the new version of trying. it's the new version of teepmg— trying. it's the new version of keeping up— trying. it's the new version of keeping up utm— trying. it's the new version of keeping up with the joneses, you mow,— keeping up with the joneses, you mow, amt— keeping up with the joneses, you mow, amt youmg— keeping up with the joneses, you know, and young girls are under so much— know, and young girls are under so much ressure— know, and young girls are under so much pressure with their peers— so much pressure with their peers amt— so much pressure with their peers and trying to look like me— peers and trying to look like the instagram— peers and trying to look like the instagram ,_ peers and trying to look like the instagram , um, pictures. the instagram, um, pictures. i tom-t— the instagram, um, pictures. i tom-t tmmt— the instagram, um, pictures. i don't think it's— the instagram, um, pictures. i don't think it's ego so much as msecurtty— don't think it's ego so much as tmsecurtty .— don't think it's ego so much as tmsecurtty . o— don't think it's ego so much as insecurity . d yes.— don't think it's ego so much as insecurity . d yes. and perhaps insecurity. d yes. and perhaps soctat— insecurity. d yes. and perhaps social media— insecurity. d yes. and perhaps social media kind— insecurity. d yes. and perhaps social media kind of encourages mat— social media kind of encourages that insecurity,— social media kind of encourages that insecurity, particularly in the young. — that insecurity, particularly in the young. usu— that insecurity, particularly in the young. \t[2lbt�* that insecurity, particularly in the young. \rrtrrt that insecurity, particularly in the young. \rtrrt the young. now you say about how not to get botched or what are some of your top tips if somebody does want to go for a procedure, what's the piece procedure, what's the main piece of them? the of advice you give them? the first a&e the first piece of advice a&e the biggest with people biggest problem with people having unsatisfactory procedures is misinformation and you need to double check, triple check everything you're told. don't just see something- g r: don't just see something online and 90, just see something online and go, om— just see something online and go, om ttt— just see something online and go, om ttt act— just see something online and go, oh, i'll act on— just see something online and go, oh, i'll act on that. and mat— go, oh, i'll act on that. and that ts— go, oh, i'll act on that. and that ts ute— go, oh, i'll act on that. and that is rife even— go, oh, i'll act on that. and that is rife even among really mtetttgemt— that is rife even among really intelligent people who should mou— intelligent people who should mow tetter. — intelligent people who should know better. yes,— intelligent people who should know better. yes, i'd say

tetmttety— know better. yes, i'd say definitely buy- know better. yes, i'd say definitely buy my book. it's my— definitely buy my book. it's omty $19.95,— definitely buy my book. it's only $19.95, which is about £16. yest— only $19.95, which is about £16. ves mere-s— only $19.95, which is about £16. yes, there's so— only $19.95, which is about £16. yes, there's so much information in yes, there's so much information m mere,— yes, there's so much information m them, so— yes, there's so much information m them, so many— yes, there's so much information in there, so many warnings and so many— in there, so many warnings and so many tmmgs— in there, so many warnings and so many things to— in there, so many warnings and so many things to read. the book makes— so many things to read. the book makes the— so many things to read. the book makes the point, by the way, that a lot of the people you help to qualified help have gone to qualified surgeons, people, and surgeons, reputable people, and not flying off to turkey not kind of flying off to turkey or to have procedures or wherever to have procedures done. these are people who thought— done. these are people who thought trey— : these are people who thought they everything thought they did everything rtgmt. — thought they did everything rtgmt. trey— thought they did everything right. they thought they did metr— right. they thought they did met-amt- right. they thought they did their- and then- right. they thought they did their and then when their research and then when trey— their research and then when they realised— their research and then when they realised where went they realised where they went wrong — they realised where they went uromgltt— they realised where they went uromgltt was— they realised where they went wrong it was basic error wrong, it was just a basic error amt— wrong, it was just a basic error amt att— wrong, it was just a basic error amt at these— wrong, it was just a basic error and all these basic errors. mere-s— and all these basic errors. there's about— and all these basic errors. there's about of and all these basic errors. there's about-of are in there's about ten of them are in the boot — there's about ten of them are in the book. they're— there's about ten of them are in the book. they're analysed for peotte— the book. they're analysed for peopteltoot— the book. they're analysed for peopteltoot at— the book. they're analysed for people look at and say, okay, people to look at and say, okay, i people to look at and say, okay, t-mate— people to look at and say, okay, t-mate taat— people to look at and say, okay, i make that mistake. iwon't make that mistake. tastcatty— i won't make that mistake. basically,iwant- i won't make that mistake. basically, want people to basically, i want people to totge— basically, i want people to dodge bullets.— basically, i want people to dodge bullets. having read this toot—get- dodge bullets. having read this toot—get tatt- dodge bullets. having read this book—get laid out| book and they can get laid out uttere— book and they can get laid out where tt-s— book and they can get laid out where tt-s om— book and they can get laid out where it's on your— book and they can get laid out where it's on your website. it's on where it's on your website. it's om—cmty- where it's on your website. it's- on_cindy jackson.com on my website. cindy jackson.com avattatte— on my website. cindy jackson.com avattatte tor— on my website. cindy jackson.com available for immediate download. _ available for immediate download. cf" available for immediate download. can i just say i'm trying to the math. you said trying to do the math. you said you had your first procedure was in 1980s and you were in in the 1980s and you were in your right. your mid 30 a&e. that's right. cindy you're looking good for whatever you are. you whatever age you are. do you want give ballpark? late want to give me a ballpark? late 60s, late 60s. cindy jackson honestly, can get how honestly, now you can get how not botched on cindy's not to get botched on cindy's website. as just said ,

website. as we've just said, we've had a great show and we got great show to come got another great show to come because foster is here at because arlene foster is here at 11. be back at next week at 11. i'll be back at next week at 930 . give

away .