the highest in the g7 in rates the highest in the g7 in the— rates the highest in the g7 in the uk.— rates the highest in the g7 in the uk. john— rates the highest in the g7 in the uk. john glen, the chief secretary— the uk. john glen, the chief secretary to— the uk. john glen, the chief secretary to the _ the uk. john glen, the chief secretary to the treasury, is going— secretary to the treasury, is going to— secretary to the treasury, is going to be— secretary to the treasury, is going to be joining me. i'm also going— going to be joining me. i'm also going io— going to be joining me. i'm also going tolspeakin9_ going to be joining me. i'm also going to speaking to sir going to be speaking to sirjake nono— going to be speaking to sirjake norm—oi- berry, former chairman of the conservative— berry, former chairman of thei conservative _think conservative party, who i think is conservative party, who i think io—gniio— conservative party, who i think is_quite critical. conservative party, who i think is_quite critical of| is going to be quite critical of anion—ino- is going to be quite critical of andrew—the bank. is going to be quite critical ofi andrew—the bank of andrew bailey and the bank of ingionoi— andrew bailey and the bank of england, probably justifiably so . ionoinon— england, probably justifiably so . jonathan powell, former downing— . jonathan powell, former downing-chief- . jonathan powell, former downing chief of staff downing street chief of staff to none— downing street chief of staff to former-minister- downing street chief of staff to former minister tony former prime minister tony nioin— former prime minister tony inn-no.- former prime minister tony blair,-me. he- former prime minister tony blair, me. he was blair, will join me. he was onion— blair, will join me. he was onioi oi— blair, will join me. he was chief of staff— blair, will join me. he was chief of staff vladimir chief of staff when vladimir iniin— chief of staff when vladimir putin no— chief of staff when vladimir putin was elected in 1999. so i'll putin was elected in 1999. so iii no— putin was elected in 1999. so in in very— putin was elected in 1999. so i'll be very interested in his iono— i'll be very interested in his tone on— i'll be very interested in his take on what's— i'll be very interested in his take on what's been going on witn— take on what's been going on niin ino— take on what's been going on with the wagner— take on what's been going on with the wagner group. kwasi monong— with the wagner group. kwasi kwarteng, former chancellor of the kwarteng, former chancellor of one ixonognon— kwarteng, former chancellor of the exchequer truss, the exchequer under liz truss, is the exchequer under liz truss, io—ioining- the exchequer under liz truss, io—ioining no- the exchequer under liz truss, is_joining me in. the exchequer under liz truss,i is_joining me in the is going to be joining me in the studio— is going to be joining me in the studio-discuss— is going to be joining me in the studio discuss whether studio to discuss whether trussonomics_ studio to discuss whether trussonomics may be slowly being viniiooioi— trussonomics may be slowly being vindicated with— trussonomics may be slowly being vindicated with the— trussonomics may be slowly being vindicated with the economic ooioniiy— vindicated with the economic calamity that— vindicated with the economic calamity that we've witnessed in noooni— calamity that we've witnessed in noooni ioyo— calamity that we've witnessed in recent days and— calamity that we've witnessed in recent days and weeks . sir recent days and weeks. sir iioiooin — recent days and weeks. sir malcolm rifkind another malcolm rifkind again, another ion— malcolm rifkind again, another tory heavyweight, former foreign ooonoiono— tory heavyweight, former foreign secretary, former— tory heavyweight, former foreign secretary, former defence ooonoiono— secretary, former defence ooonoiony, io— secretary, former defence secretary, is going to with secretary, is going to be with no—oo- secretary, is going to be with noo— isl secretary, is going to be with. noo— io iony me to discuss russia as is tony anion,— me to discuss russia as is tony abbott, former— me to discuss russia as is tony abbott, former australian prime iiinioion— abbott, former australian prime iiinioion ino— abbott, former australian prime minister, the man— abbott, former australian prime minister, the man who famously oioonoo— minister, the man who famously oiooooo ino— minister, the man who famously stopped the boats— minister, the man who famously stopped the boats in australia. voo— stopped the boats in australia. you oooion-i— stopped the boats in australia. you couldn't wish _ stopped the boats in australia. you couldn't wish for a better line-up- — you couldn't wish for a better line-up- -ii-o- you couldn't wish for a better line-up- -ii-o o- you couldn't wish for a better line—up. it's a very line—up. folks. it's a very oinong— line—up. folks. it's a very oinong-oo- line—up. folks. it's a very strong-do stay. line—up. folks. it's a very- strong-do stay tuned strong line—up. do stay tuned iooonoo— strong line—up. do stay tuned because we're— strong line—up. do stay tuned because we're going to get innongn—

because we're going to get throughlhell_ because we're going to get throughlhell of- because we're going to get through hell of lot. through a hell of a lot. now ioi-o—inonil let's go through the front oogoo— let's go through the front- nogoo—snnooy pages. first of all, the sunday ioiognoon— pages. first of all, the sunday telegraph front— pages. first of all, the sunday telegraph front page again , of telegraph front page again, of ii-o— telegraph front page again, of course, it's the— telegraph front page again, of course, it's the russian oiiooiion— course, it's the russian oiinoiion .— course, it's the russian situation . wagner mutineers situation. wagner mutineers innnoo— situation. wagner mutineers ionnoo nook— situation. wagner mutineers turned back after striking deal witn— turned back after striking deal niin poin— turned back after striking deal with putin. we're— turned back after striking deal with putin. we're going to try oni— with putin. we're going to try on iono— with putin. we're going to try and delve into— with putin. we're going to try and delve into that story and fini— and delve into that story and find oni— and delve into that story and find out exactly— and delve into that story and find out exactly what has gone on, because it does seem inionooiing— on, because it does seem interesting yesterday there interesting that yesterday there oivionoiy— interesting that yesterday there oivionoiy zoo— interesting that yesterday there obviously 200 miles out from iiooo— obviously 200 miles out from iiooo oni— obviously 200 miles out from moscow and then— obviously 200 miles out from moscow and then today, some deal is moscow and then today, some deal io-ioing— moscow and then today, some deal io-ioing gm.— moscow and then today, some deal is being struck. sunday is clearly being struck. sunday iinoo— is clearly being struck. sunday iinoo-oiingo— is clearly being struck. sunday times,-clings on- is clearly being struck. sunday times, clings on after times, putin clings on after noon.— times, putin clings on after noiiny. ino— times, putin clings on after mutiny. the observer also going wiin— mutiny. the observer also going niin inoi— mutiny. the observer also going win no oiony. — mutiny. the observer also going with that story. so— mutiny. the observer also going with that story. so papers from nigni— with that story. so papers from nigni io— with that story. so papers from nigni io ion— with that story. so papers from right to left quite— right to left quite understandably, focusing on ionoign— understandably, focusing on ionoign policy— understandably, focusing on ionoign policy .— understandably, focusing on foreign policy . rebel chief foreign policy. rebel chief nono— foreign policy. rebel chief halts tank— foreign policy. rebel chief halts tank advance on moscow to stop— halts tank advance on moscow to sioo iioooonoo— halts tank advance on moscow to stop bloodshed mail on sunday ogoin— stop bloodshed mail on sunday ogoin ino— stop bloodshed mail on sunday again the question will be ooking— again the question will be asking during— again the question will be asking during the show of my various guests— asking during the show of my various guests can putin hold on sunny— various guests can putin hold on sonooy ixonooo— various guests can putin hold on sunday express sums it up niooiy. — sunday express sums it up nicely. doesn't— sunday express sums it up nicely. doesn't it.7 russia on ino— nicely. doesn't it.7 russia on one inno— nicely. doesn't it.7 russia on the brink and— nicely. doesn't it.7 russia on the brink and then the sun on sunny,— the brink and then the sun on sonooy, sav— the brink and then the sun on sunday, say putin at the brink. con— sunday, say putin at the brink. oon i— sunday, say putin at the brink. oon i no— sunday, say putin at the brink. oon i no o— sunday, say putin at the brink. can i be a grammar pedant and say onooion-i— can i be a grammar pedant and say shouldn't it— can i be a grammar pedant and say shouldn't it be— can i be a grammar pedant and say shouldn't it be putin on the inn— say shouldn't it be putin on the inink onywoo— say shouldn't it be putin on the brink anyway, leave that to the noooiino— brink anyway, leave that to the headline writers— brink anyway, leave that to the headline writers at the sun . and

headline writers at the sun. and inon— headline writers at the sun. and inon ino— headline writers at the sun. and then the sunday— headline writers at the sun. and then the sunday mirror. putin ooonoo— then the sunday mirror. putin ooonoo io— then the sunday mirror. putin pushed to brink— then the sunday mirror. putin pushed to brink . the word brink pushed to brink. the word brink is going— pushed to brink. the word brink is going o— pushed to brink. the word brink is going o iot— pushed to brink. the word brink is doing a lot of— pushed to brink. the word brink is doing a lot of heavy lifting oni— is doing a lot of heavy lifting on in— is doing a lot of heavy lifting on in going— is doing a lot of heavy lifting and i'm going to— is doing a lot of heavy lifting and i'm going to ask questions oi— and i'm going to ask questions oi dono— and i'm going to ask questions now of david maddox, who is the ooiiiiooi— now of david maddox, who is the political editor— now of david maddox, who is the political editor of— now of david maddox, who is the political editor of the express oniino. — political editor of the express online. great— political editor of the express online. great to— political editor of the express online. great to see you this nonning— online. great to see you this morning, david.— online. great to see you this morning, david. thank you for ioining— morning, david. thank you for ioining no— morning, david. thank you for ioining no .— morning, david. thank you for ioining no . ii-o— morning, david. thank you for joining me . it's quite joining me. it's quite something,- joining me. it's quite something, isn't it, to have had nnoi— something, isn't it, to have had no nos— something, isn't it, to have had no nos gono— something, isn't it, to have had what has gone on— something, isn't it, to have had what has gone on in the last 24 to what has gone on in the last 24 io oo— what has gone on in the last 24 io .g nonn— what has gone on in the last 24 to 48 hours, wagner group oioging— to 48 hours, wagner group oioging wnoi— to 48 hours, wagner group staging what we thought was a oono— staging what we thought was a on .— staging what we thought was a on . ano— staging what we thought was a oooo . and now— staging what we thought was a coup . and now what do we think? coup. and now what do we think? no-o— coup. and now what do we think? no-o noon— coup. and now what do we think? he's been bought— coup. and now what do we think? he's been bought by putin. he's been bought off by putin. yon-vo— he's been bought off by putin. yon-vo goi— he's been bought off by putin. you've got lukashenko, the noionnoion— you've got lukashenko, the belarusian president, brokering king— belarusian president, brokering kino oi— belarusian president, brokering some kind of peace deal. your noooiion— some kind of peace deal. your noooiion io— some kind of peace deal. your reaction is, david,— some kind of peace deal. your reaction is, david, and how are ino— reaction is, david, and how are one oooon— reaction is, david, and how are the papers covering all this? it the papers covering all this? ii no— the papers covering all this? ii ii— the papers covering all this? ii in no— the papers covering all this? it was it was an— the papers covering all this? it was it was an incredible day yesterday. you know, we all we all thought that , you know, all thought that, you know, moscow might fall for this as they were going up the m4 , they were going up the m4, literally. i think that's the russian motorway, the russian and then suddenly it stops . and and then suddenly it stops. and i don't think we really got to the bottom of what the deal was that stopped him. but clearly ,

that stopped him. but clearly, fryston is a kind of homicidal maniac. he's fryston is a kind of homicidal maniac . he's somebody who maniac. he's somebody who nnnionoo— maniac. he's somebody who punishes deserters- “a" pc he's somebody who punishes deserters with ’h?“ ?it he's somebody who punishes deserters with a sledge nonnnnon— punishes deserters with a sledge nonnnnon voo— punishes deserters with a sledge nonnnnon nos, i— punishes deserters with a sledge hammer. yes, i think the big gnooiion— hammer. yes, i think the big question yesterday, apart from the question yesterday, apart from one noon— question yesterday, apart from the fear about— question yesterday, apart from the fear about civil war going on in— the fear about civil war going on in o— the fear about civil war going on in o oonnin— the fear about civil war going on in a country with a nuclear ooon— on in a country with a nuclear onon io— on in a country with a nuclear onon is i— on in a country with a nuclear weapons is i mean— on in a country with a nuclear weapons is i mean , what would be weapons is i mean, what would be notion— weapons is i mean, what would be gggg. ion— weapons is i mean, what would be gggg. ion ino— weapons is i mean, what would be better for the west— weapons is i mean, what would be better for the west ,_ weapons is i mean, what would be better for the west , president better for the west, president innin— better for the west, president putin continuing— better for the west, president putin continuing or president inigoznin— putin continuing or president prigozhin and— putin continuing or president prigozhin and his murderous nogino— prigozhin and his murderous nogino ion— prigozhin and his murderous regime for the— prigozhin and his murderous regime for the people i spoke to nooionoon— regime for the people i spoke to nooionoon onen— regime for the people i spoke to yesterday, they president inigoznin— yesterday, they president prigozhin might have been the ining— prigozhin might have been the one thing that— prigozhin might have been the one thing that was worse than nnooiooni— one thing that was worse than president putin. _ one thing that was worse than president putin. g president putin. so it was. but it was interesting seeing how the papers have covered. i mean, it's a kind of front page edhofs it's a kind of front page editor's dream really , isn't it? editor's dream really, isn't it? the sun on sunday, putin at the inn,— the sun on sunday, putin at the inn ino— the sun on sunday, putin at the brink, the revolution of the weekend.— brink, the revolution of the weekend. lots— brink, the revolution of the weekend. lots and lots of onoinoio— weekend. lots and lots of onoinoio .— weekend. lots and lots of analysis . and— weekend. lots and lots of analysis . and what's analysis. and what's interesting,- analysis. and what's interesting, i suppose, from the nooionn— interesting, i suppose, from the western perspective is where it ooon— western perspective is where it ooon-.— western perspective is where it goes. nun..— western perspective is where it does . putin there's a lot does live. putin there's a lot of commentary— does live. putin there's a lot of commentary .— does live. putin there's a lot of commentary . you've picked out of commentary. you've picked out a of commentary. you've picked out 6-by_ of commentary. you've picked out o-in iooioni— of commentary. you've picked out a by robert toombs. what's a piece by robert toombs. what's he a piece by robert toombs. what's no ooning— a piece by robert toombs. what's no ooning in— a piece by robert toombs. what's no ooning in ino— a piece by robert toombs. what's he saying in the sunday telegraph? — he saying in the sunday. telegraph? -he's telegraph? well, he's he's looking at it from a historical perspective. is this 1917 again, which, of course , is when tsar which, of course, is when tsar nicholas famously was deposed

and it ended up with the october revolution some time after that with the bolsheviks coming in. but i think he's kind of leaning towards it being more like 1944, the failed coup against hitler, which of course weakened hitler. but he then stayed on and took revenge on the generals involved in that. and one could only imagine that putin's got something similar in mind if he manages to hold hold. do we think that prigozhin's- d do we think that prigozhin's days are nnnionooo— think that prigozhin's days are nnnionooo i— think that prigozhin's days are numbered? i mean, he's obviously noon— numbered? i mean, he's obviously been iongni— numbered? i mean, he's obviously been bought off— numbered? i mean, he's obviously been bought off for— numbered? i mean, he's obviously been bought off for now. he's over in belarus. _ been bought off for now. he's over in belarus. i— been bought off for now. he's over in belarus. i mean, i'd be noioning— over in belarus. i mean, i'd be noioning nonn— over in belarus. i mean, i'd be watching motty for novichok . watching motty for novichok. ino— watching motty for novichok. i-no goi— watching motty for novichok. i-no goi io— watching motty for novichok. i-no goi io io— watching motty for novichok. i've got to be honest. i: i've got to be honest. i'd be nonning— i've got to be honest. i'd be noning uno— i've got to be honest. i'd be making sure there's no ice picks lying around, which is, you know, the famous thing that took out , you know, stalin know, the famous thing that took out, you know, stalin had his assassins used. so it's i can't believe he's feeling particularly safe at the moment . at and where does it leave the nognon— . at and where does it leave the nognon ononn— . at and where does it leave the nognon noon in— at and where does it leave the wagner group in relation to the unoinoo— wagner group in relation to the ukraine? because— wagner group in relation to the ukraine? because on one hand, we

oion-i— ukraine? because on one hand, we oion-i nono— ukraine? because on one hand, we didn't have much— ukraine? because on one hand, we didn't have much resistance from ionooion— didn't have much resistance from ionooion inoono— didn't have much resistance from russian troops yesterday as the nognon— russian troops yesterday as the nognon ononn— russian troops yesterday as the wagner group continued to sort of monon— wagner group continued to sort of march towards— wagner group continued to sort of march towards moscow. oonionoin— of march towards moscow. obviously they _ of march towards moscow. obviously they look up to the nognon— obviously they look up to the nognon ononn— obviously they look up to the wagner group they captured nonnin— wagner group they captured bakhmut. they're kind of like the bakhmut. they're kind of like one oinono— bakhmut. they're kind of like the extreme end— bakhmut. they're kind of like the extreme end of the military nongo— the extreme end of the military noogo in— the extreme end of the military wedge in russia.— the extreme end of the military wedge in russia. is this oonoining— wedge in russia. is this something that benefits ukraine ononoii— something that benefits ukraine ononoii, oo— something that benefits ukraine ononoii, no no— something that benefits ukraine overall, do we think, david? non— overall, do we think, david? noii. i— overall, do we think, david? well, i think— overall, do we think, david? well, i think division- well, i think division inevitably benefits ukraine. and the fact that putin is now weakened and clearly the wagner group are not happy . i mean, group are not happy. i mean, they've not marched on moscow, but they're clearly not happy . but they're clearly not happy. and so, yes, it will benefit ukraine. and of course , there's ukraine. and of course, there's been discussion of ukraine pushing forward anyway and recapturing land and pushing the russians out and they must spy an opportunity . now, look, an opportunity. now, look, inono-o— an opportunity. now, look, there's other— an opportunity. now, look, there's other things- ’?“ “ can now, look, there's other things in the paper— there's other things in the paper ,_ there's other things in the nonon , noi— there's other things in the paper , not least our own paper, not least our own economic situation domestically, nnion— economic situation domestically, nnion non— economic situation domestically, nnion non on— economic situation domestically, nnion non on non— economic situation domestically, which may or may not have been oxooonioioo— which may or may not have been exacerbated by— which may or may not have been exacerbated by the _ which may or may not have been exacerbated by the ukraine oiinoiion— exacerbated by the ukraine oiinoiion .— exacerbated by the ukraine situation . sunday times pm feels situation. sunday times pm feels the situation. sunday times pm feels ino onoozog— situation. sunday times pm feels the squeeze and— situation. sunday times pm feels the squeeze and there's no great ooono— the squeeze and there's no great ooono non— the squeeze and there's no great escape. he's stuck— the squeeze and there's no great escape. he's stuck between a noon— escape. he's stuck between a noon oni— escape. he's stuck between a noon on o— escape. he's stuck between a rock and a hard— escape. he's stuck between a rock and a hard place here. inooo— rock and a hard place here.

these deliverables being these deliverables aren't being ooiinonoo. — these deliverables aren't being delivered. rishi_ these deliverables aren't being delivered. rishi so delivered. rishi sunak so oo—ooiioo— delivered. rishi sunak so so—called-of- delivered. rishi sunak so so—called of economic so—called man of economic oioiiiiin— so—called man of economic stability and— so—called man of economic stability and it's— so—called man of economic stability and it's all gone very ,—voo.- stability and it's all gone very ,—voo. nnoi , very pear shaped. yes. and iii— , very pear shaped. yes. and in no— , very pear shaped. yes. and i'll be interested to hear what kwasi has to say to you later, because i think liz truss and kwasi are feeling more justified by the day. but i mean, are they? you'd have people who oniiioioo— they? you'd have people who criticise them _ sign? you'd have people who criticise them heavily saying no, criticise them heavily saying ii— criticise them heavily saying i no— criticise them heavily saying no, it was the _ criticise them heavily saying no, it was the mini—budget, what did no, it was the mini—budget, what iii ii?— no, it was the mini—budget, what iii in no— no, it was the mini—budget, what iii in in ion— no, it was the mini—budget, what did it? it's it's becoming, you know,— did it? it's it's becoming, you know, no— did it? it's it's becoming, you know, one gin— did it? it's it's becoming, you know, the gilt rates, the inionono— know, the gilt rates, the infamous gilt- know, the gilt rates, the infamous gilt rates which none of no— infamous gilt rates which none of no gono— infamous gilt rates which none of us quite understood are now inon— of us quite understood are now worse than german mini—budget. and you— worse than german mini—budget. and you know.— worse than german mini—budget. and you know, it's— worse than german mini—budget. and you know, it's sunday- worse than german mini—budget. and you know, it's sunday times piece is fascinating , actually. piece is fascinating, actually. it reflects a lot of what i was being told this week. but you know, franklin , the famous know, franklin, the famous pollster, said , saying to pollster, said, saying to conservative mps that anybody dodi with a majority of less than 15,000 is likely gone. i mean, we're talking about jeopardise our very own jacob. jacob rees—mogg so. jacob yes, he might jacob rees—mogg so. jacob yes, no nigni io— jacob rees—mogg so. jacob yes, he might be doing— jacob rees—mogg so. jacob yes, he might be doing more- he might be doing more broadcasting— he might be doing more broadcasting or gb news and in foot,— broadcasting or gb news and in gag, oo— broadcasting or gb news and in gag, zon— broadcasting or gb news and in fact, come 20, 24,— broadcasting or gb news and in fact, come 20, 24, certainly nonn— fact, come 20, 24, certainly win-guest- fact, come 20, 24, certainly your,-guest, sir- fact, come 20, 24, certainly your, guest, sir jake your, your guest, sir jake nonn— your, your guest, sir jake

nonnn niii— your, your guest, sir jake berry, will also be i'm going to oon— berry, will also be i'm going to oon nin— berry, will also be i'm going to ask him about— berry, will also be i'm going to ask him about his— berry, will also be i'm going to ask him about his reaction to iinio— ask him about his reaction to lints, because— ask him about his reaction to lints, because obviously he's a ionnon— lints, because obviously he's a former-chairman- lints, because obviously he's a former-chairman .- lints, because obviously he's a former chairman . but let's former party chairman. but let's oioo—nnoi- former party chairman. but let's oioo—nnoi ino- also just get into what i've ooooniioo— also just get into what i'vei described _woke also just get into what i've- described _woke idiocy described as weekend woke idiocy . ii-o— described as weekend woke idiocy . ii-o onio— described as weekend woke idiocy . it's this astonishing story in no— . it's this astonishing story in one-on— . it's this astonishing story in the-on sunday,- . it's this astonishing story in the on sunday, saint paul's the mail on sunday, saint paul's ioniooio— the mail on sunday, saint paul's ioniooio-oo— the mail on sunday, saint paul's lambasts-as white- lambasts churchill as white onnnonooioi— lambasts churchill as white supremacist .— lambasts churchill as white supremacist . oh, my god, lambasts churchill as white supremacist. oh, my god, i'm so oion— supremacist. oh, my god, i'm so oion oi— supremacist. oh, my god, i'm so oion oi inooo— supremacist. oh, my god, i'm so sick of these churchill stories nnono— sick of these churchill stories where idiots— sick of these churchill stories where idiots keep on calling the onooiooi— where idiots keep on calling the greatest britain— where idiots keep on calling the greatest britain ever to have iinoo— greatest britain ever to have iinoo o— greatest britain ever to have lived a white— greatest britain ever to have lived a white supremacist. yeah, he lived a white supremacist. yeah, no oo— lived a white supremacist. yeah, no o— lived a white supremacist. yeah, he was a man of— lived a white supremacist. yeah, he was a man of his time, but nnoi— he was a man of his time, but no no— he was a man of his time, but what the hell— he was a man of his time, but what the hell is— he was a man of his time, but what the hell is this revisionist- what the hell is this revisionist history going on? i it's astonishes_ revisionist history going on? i it's astonishes me. “ �*" it's astonishes me. i mean, if ino— it's astonishes me. i mean, if in non— it's astonishes me. i mean, if it's not the national trust, you can rely on the church of england to outwork anybody these days. but, you know , literally days. but, you know, literally attacking the man who who defeated fascism in the 20th century seems to be i mean a weird obsession. this caption nniiion. — weird obsession. this caption was written. we— weird obsession. this caption was written. we don't- i: in“ this caption was written. we don't quite know non— was written. we don't quite know non ii— was written. we don't quite know non ii oo— was written. we don't quite know how it was written,— was written. we don't quite know how it was written, why it was nniiion— how it was written, why it was nniiion-ii-o— how it was written, why it was written,-it's been- how it was written, why it was written, it's been pulled . written, but it's been pulled. so written, but it's been pulled.i so_churchill so they've described churchill aslcontroversial_ so they've described churchill as controversial figure, but as a controversial figure, but iniiioiin— as a controversial figure, but initially .what- as a controversial figure, but initially what david? initially said what david? so he is non— initially said what david? so he is oioo o— initially said what david? so he is also a figure— initially said what david? so he is also a figure of— initially said what david? so he is also a figure of controversy . he as was an unashamed . he as he was an unashamed imperialist and white supremacist . well, he was

supremacist. well, he was a victorian. he was born in the 18 70s of course, he was in favour of a british empire. he was a man of his day. yeah. nobody says he's perfect,— man of his day. yeah. nobody says he's perfect, but- h?“ “ can “43?“ nobody says he's perfect, but he was noononoiiio— says he's perfect, but he was responsible for— says he's perfect, but he was responsible for defeating hitler and responsible for defeating hitler ono inooing— responsible for defeating hitler and freeing the— responsible for defeating hitler and freeing the western world non— and freeing the western world non ino — and freeing the western world from the tyranny— and freeing the western world from the tyranny of rule. but you— from the tyranny of rule. but you know,— from the tyranny of rule. but you know, let's— from the tyranny of rule. but you know, let's overlook that. ano— you know, let's overlook that. and ooonoiin— you know, let's overlook that. and actually, if— you know, let's overlook that. and actually, if we— you know, let's overlook that. and actually, if we go- you know, let's overlook that. and actually, if we go back to that first, the big story of the weekend, you know , the defeat of weekend, you know, the defeat of fascism in europe is a constant , you know, thing of importance. a huge importance. and we should be celebrating him. let's just lighten be celebrating him. let's just iignion ino— be celebrating him. let's just lighten the mood— be celebrating him. let's just lighten the mood a- f “g “ let's just lighten the mood a little. nonni— lighten the mood a little. david, before _ lighten the mood a little. david, before you go , kate is david, before you go, kate is ogoin— david, before you go, kate is ogoin in— david, before you go, kate is once again in sportswear on the non— once again in sportswear on the inoni oi— once again in sportswear on the inoni of no— once again in sportswear on the front of the papers— once again in sportswear on the front of the papers . tell us front of the papers. tell us ooono— front of the papers. tell us ooono inio. — front of the papers. tell us about this. she's been having a nnooning— about this. she's been having a nnooning nn— about this. she's been having a nnooning on in— about this. she's been having a knocking up in tennis with none oinon— knocking up in tennis with none oinon inon— knocking up in tennis with none other than roger— knocking up in tennis with none other than roger federer. yeah non— other than roger federer. yeah get, no— other than roger federer. yeah get, no nnon— other than roger federer. yeah well, we know we _ other than roger federer. yeah well, we know we know she loves her well, we know we know she loves non ionnio— well, we know we know she loves nonionnio. in— well, we know we know she loves her tennis. i'm just— well, we know we know she loves her tennis. i'm just looking on the her tennis. i'm just looking on on non— her tennis. i'm just looking on one inoni oi— her tennis. i'm just looking on the front of the— her tennis. i'm just looking on the front of the sunday express. sno-o— the front of the sunday express. sno-o iooning— the front of the sunday express. she's looking very— the front of the sunday express. she's looking very athletic, so it's she's looking very athletic, so ii-o-oi— she's looking very athletic, so ii-o-oi o— she's looking very athletic, so it's-of a sunday- it's very good of a sunday onoo— it's very good of a sunday no io— it's very good of a sunday express to put— it's very good of a sunday express to put her on the front. nonnin— express to put her on the front. noonoiin ion— express to put her on the front. actually, few papers— express to put her on the front. actually, few papers did- express to put her on the front. actually, few papers did this. this would have been a normal front style all over the

front page style all over the papers. if she's on front . papers. if she's on the front. noii. — papers. if she's on the front. noii. nn— papers. if she's on the front. well, my old editor used to dispute that , but, you know, dispute that, but, you know, she's popular. you know, she's immense popular. you know, it kind of reminds you that there are things to be cheerful about. yes. and there are good things in this country some things in this country are some sort stability somewhere. so sort of stability somewhere. so it's positive story it's it's a positive story and it's a rather than anything. exactly exactly. david maddox, thank you for exactly. david maddox, thank you ion—nonning- for joining me this morning. was a forjoining me this morning. was o—onoon— forjoining me this morning. was o—onoonlnon- forjoining me this morning. was o—onoonlnon .- forjoining me this morning. wasi o—onoonlnon . non, a pleasure to speak to you. now, of a pleasure to speak to you. now, oi—goi— a pleasure to speak to you. now, oi—goi ino- of course, we've got the ioonio-o— of course, we've got the ioonio-o-.- of course, we've got the people's-. and. of course, we've got the people's . and i'll of course, we've got the- people's-. and i'll tell people's panel. and i'll tell you— people's panel. and i'll tell you wig,— people's panel. and i'll tell you what, they're to you what, they're going to have men— you what, they're going to havei inoin—no-no their work cut out because we've got their work cut out because we've goo—gnooio. - their work cut out because we've goo—gnooio. i-nl got so many great guests. i'm nonn— got so many great guests. i'm non—know- got so many great guests. i'm very—know from l very intrigued to know from ooononino— very intrigued to know from catherine _inl catherine forster, who's in uxbridgen_ catherine forster, who's in. uxbridge,-uxbridge uxbridge, we chose uxbridge noinnoiin— uxbridge, we chose uxbridge naturally, because we to naturally, because we wanted to see naturally, because we wanted to ooo-kind — naturally, because we wanted to ooo-ninolnooi- see what the kind of post boris nnooo— see what the kind of post boris effect-there— see what the kind of post boris effect .there and _ see what the kind of post boris effect there and i'd love to effect is. there and i'd love to know,— effect is. there and i'd love to know, catherine,— effect is. there and i'd love to know, catherine, what questions the know, catherine, what questions on nonoi— know, catherine, what questions the panel would _ know, catherine, what questions the panel would to put the panel would like me to put to the panel would like me to put io—i-no- the panel would like me to put io—i-no goi- to the guests that i've got ioion—nnooil today. john glenn kwasi nnonong.— today. john glenn kwasi kwarteng. tony today. john glenn kwasi- kwarteng. -tony abbott, kwarteng. i've got tony abbott, ino— kwarteng. i've got tony abbott, i-no goi— kwarteng. i've got tony abbott, i-no goi inon— kwarteng. i've got tony abbott, i've got them all.— kwarteng. i've got tony abbott, i've got them all. catherine nnoo— i've got them all. catherine nnoo-ooning- i've got them all. catherine what-saying ? i i've got them all. catherine. what-saying ? yes. i've got them all. catherine- what-saying ? yes. good what are they saying? yes. good nonning— what are they saying? yes. good nonning .— what are they saying? yes. good morning , camilla from sunny morning, camilla from sunny uxbfidge. morning, camilla from sunny uxbridge . we're here at the uxbridge. we're here at the harris and hoole coffee shop. let's go in and talk to rihanna quickly. rihanna thanks so much for having us. costa are going up for everybody, but how's

business? they even with the ooon— business? they even with the cost increase— business? they even with the cost increase here— business? they even with the cost increase here we- , they even with the cost increase here we still got doin— cost increase here we still got ooiin nognion— cost increase here we still got daily regular business we get the daily regular business we get one nogniono— daily regular business we get the regulars in— daily regular business we get the regulars in now you have gnooi— the regulars in now you have gnooi ooiioo. — the regulars in now you have great coffee. we— the regulars in now you have great coffee. we have the best ooiioo— great coffee. we have the best ooiioo in— great coffee. we have the best coffee in uxbridge . so even coffee in uxbridge. so even noonio— coffee in uxbridge. so even noonio noning— coffee in uxbridge. so even people moving to the area , they people moving to the area, they not— people moving to the area, they no oo— people moving to the area, they just come here. _ people moving to the area, they just come here. china just come here. great. thank you so much for having us. okay, let's meet our panel. thank you so much, chaps, for coming along on this very, very hot day . and on this very, very hot day. and jack, i'm going to talk to you first. you are an nhs worker. you're also an actor . yeah, very you're also an actor. yeah, very concerned , as is pretty much concerned, as is pretty much everybody about the cost of living. tell us about your own personal experience since everything has gone up from supermarkets to council tax mortgages and mortgages have tripled. for me personally , my tripled. for me personally, my gas— tripled. for me personally, my goo ono— tripled. for me personally, my gas and electric— tripled. for me personally, my gas and electric bills- j : for me personally, my gas and electric bills tripled ononnining— gas and electric bills tripled ononnining .— gas and electric bills tripled everything . that was a real everything. that was a real oinnggio— everything. that was a real oinnggio. in— everything. that was a real struggle. i'm on- everything. that was a real struggle. i'm on the minimum nogo— struggle. i'm on the minimum nogo, fie-oo— struggle. i'm on the minimum wage, £10.40 an— struggle. i'm on the minimum wage, £10.40 an hour subcontractor for the nhs. subcontractor for the n hs. i noon— subcontractor for the n hs. i need io— subcontractor for the nhs. i need to work— subcontractor for the nhs. i need to work at—

subcontractor for the nhs. i need to work at least 70 hours a noon— need to work at least 70 hours a week io— need to work at least 70 hours a week io ging— need to work at least 70 hours a week to bring in— need to work at least 70 hours a week to bring in about £700, nnion— week to bring in about £700, nnion io— week to bring in about £700, which is about— week to bring in about £700, which is about the amount you noon— which is about the amount you need inoi— which is about the amount you nooo inoi io— which is about the amount you need just to just— which is about the amount you need just to just to not go iooknonio— need just to just to not go backwards. so— need just to just to not go backwards. so it's very hard and i backwards. so it's very hard and i oon-i— backwards. so it's very hard and i oon-i ininn— backwards. so it's very hard and i don't think i— backwards. so it's very hard and i don't think i don't think the noonio— i don't think i don't think the noonio in— i don't think i don't think the noonio in nonon— i don't think i don't think the people in power really understand— people in power really understand what's going on. you wont— understand what's going on. you nonoi-onon— understand what's going on. you worst-ever been— understand what's going on. you worst ever been excuse me, worst it's ever been excuse me, non— worst it's ever been excuse me, non-onooiiio— worst it's ever been excuse me, you specific question for you have a specific question for non— you have a specific question for non on— you have a specific question for non on onoo— you have a specific question for them on that line,— you have a specific question for them on that line, don't you? noon— them on that line, don't you? noon . no— them on that line, don't you? noon . no non— them on that line, don't you? yeah . do you know- them on that line, don't you? “43?“ do you know how bad it is yeah. do you know how bad it is out yeah. do you know how bad it is on nono— yeah. do you know how bad it is on non? ii— yeah. do you know how bad it is out here? it is— yeah. do you know how bad it is out here? it is really,— “43?“ do you know how bad it is out here? it is really, really too.— out here? it is really, really noo- ino— out here? it is really, really bad. i've never— out here? it is really, really bad. i've never known things to be bad. i've never known things to no onio— bad. i've never known things to no inio noo— bad. i've never known things to be this bad in— bad. i've never known things to be this bad in all— bad. i've never known things to be this bad in all my years, and in — be this bad in all my years, and in on. — be this bad in all my years, and in on. -voo— be this bad in all my years, and in on. -voo — be this bad in all my years, and i'm 63.-yes really- i'm 63. yeah? yes really difficult times for many people . let's talk to thomas now . . let's talk to thomas now. thomas, thank you for joining us. and you're currently disabled, but you were a decorator and a driver . you had decorator and a driver. you had a huge heart attack a month ago. tell us about your experience. well i called 999 and waited patiently . for 45 minutes well i called 999 and waited patiently. for 45 minutes being sold 20 to half an hour. when i called back, they— sold 20 to half an hour. when i called back, they said,- : $70 ?“ ” when i called back, they said, i'm sorry— called back, they said, i'm on .— called back, they said, i'm oonnn , no— called back, they said, i'm sorry , we don't- called back, they said, i'm sorry , we don't give times. can sorry, we don't give times. can you— sorry, we don't give times. can you goi— sorry, we don't give times. can you goi oin— sorry, we don't give times. can you goi on no— sorry, we don't give times. can you get off the line ? this is you get off the line? this is noon. — you get off the line? this is noon. i— you get off the line? this is inon. i inon— you get off the line? this is busy. i then called a neighbour nno— busy. i then called a neighbour nno ooiioo— busy. i then called a neighbour who called 111. _ busy. i then called a neighbour who called 111. the ambulance ii— who called 111. the ambulance ii ooon— who called 111. the ambulance came. it took an— who called 111. the ambulance

came. it took an hour. all told. nni— came. it took an hour. all told. but harefield_ came. it took an hour. all told. but harefield hospital was me oinoigni— but harefield hospital was me straight through.— but harefield hospital was me straight through. i'm lucky to be straight through. i'm lucky to in non. — straight through. i'm lucky to be here. thank— straight through. i'm lucky to be here. thank you very much. to the be here. thank you very much. to ino noiionoi— be here. thank you very much. to the national health— be here. thank you very much. to the national health service . and the national health service. and noon— the national health service. and yeah ,_ the national health service. and noon , nn— the national health service. and noon , nnn nooni— the national health service. and yeah , my heart goes out to those yeah, my heart goes out to those onoo— yeah, my heart goes out to those not nonon-i— yeah, my heart goes out to those that haven't survived because of onio— that haven't survived because of inio iooonoo— that haven't survived because of this, because they— that haven't survived because of this, because they should noonono— this, because they should respond quicker or at least they on no— respond quicker or at least they on one nnono— respond quicker or at least they on the phone with— respond quicker or at least they on the phone with you. because i ooonoo i— on the phone with you. because i was scared. i was— on the phone with you. because i was scared. i was on— on the phone with you. because i was scared. i was on my own . was scared. i was on my own. on — was scared. i was on my own. yes- t he— was scared. i was on my own. voo. ino oongoo— was scared. i was on my own. yes. the target for— was scared. i was on my own. yes. the target for category two calls, i think is 18 minutes. so very , very fortunate to be here. very, very fortunate to be here. and finally, to you , sir philip, and finally, to you, sir philip, you you used to have a very senior role in it. but you're currently a full time carer for your father and you're interested in the impact of fatherless households on the economy. you've got a question for john glenn. tell us a bit forjohn glenn. tell us a bit about that . yeah, so i think about that. yeah, so i think ii-o— about that. yeah, so i think to noon— yeah, so i think it's really something to think ooono— it's really something to think ooono ono— it's really something to think about and consider as as a major innooi— about and consider as as a major innooi io— about and consider as as a major innooi o no— about and consider as as a major impact to the uk— about and consider as as a major impact to the uk economy, and onoo— impact to the uk economy, and not io— impact to the uk economy, and not io ino— impact to the uk economy, and that is the impact— impact to the uk economy, and that is the impact of fatherless nonoo— that is the impact of fatherless homes within— that is the impact of fatherless homes within in— that is the impact of fatherless homes within in the uk economy and homes within in the uk economy on non— homes within in the uk economy on non onoo— homes within in the uk economy and how that filters down at a gnonnion— and how that filters down at a granular level—

and how that filters down at a granular level to— and how that filters down at a granular level to with the split of one — granular level to with the split of the household— granular level to with the split of the household and how economically— of the household and how economically dependent people iooono— economically dependent people become as a result of things ino— become as a result of things iino nign— become as a result of things like high conflict, divorce and nonin— like high conflict, divorce and ioniin .— like high conflict, divorce and ioniin , nonin— like high conflict, divorce and family , family separation . o“ family, family separation. oh, onoo-o— family, family separation. oh, onoo-o on— family, family separation. oh, that's an interesting- family, family separation. oh, that's an interesting question because of course there are large numbers of households now, aren't there, without without a father present. okay. so there's plenty of food for thought for the politicians. camilla from uxbfidge. the politicians. camilla from uxbridge . we look forward to uxbridge. we look forward to seeing what they have to say back to you now. thank you very much for that, catherine. much indeed for that, catherine. if want for the if you want to apply for the nonoo— if you want to apply for the nonoi, oon-i— if you want to apply for the panel, don't-you- if you want to apply for the panel, don't you go to gb panel, don't forget you go to gb nono—nonoii news .com forward slash panel ono— news .com forward slash panel on non-ii— news .com forward slash panel on non-ii io— news .com forward slash panel and you'll be -to- news .com forward slash panel and you'll be to apply. i'm and you'll be able to apply. i'm noi— and you'll be able to apply. i'm non-inning— and you'll be able to apply. i'm just-bring david- and you'll be able to apply. i'm just bring david maddox just going to bring david maddox noon— just going to bring david maddox back-conversation- back into the conversation iooonoo— back into the conversation becatsecretary_ back into the conversation becatsecretary of treasury, chief secretary of the treasury, john— chief secretary of the treasury, ionn—nnl chief secretary of the treasury,. ionn—nn. no-o john glen, to get miked up. he's onnnoniin— john glen, to get miked up. he's onnnoniin in— john glen, to get miked up. he's onnnoniin in o— john glen, to get miked up. he's currently in a location in london.— currently in a location in london. david- currently in a location in london. david now i'm looking at oi— london. david now i'm looking at some of-yougov_ london. david now i'm looking at some of yougov polling some of the yougov polling onoo-o—ioooni that's just come out today. nono— that's just come out today. we've conservatives we've got the conservatives on 22. -oonn— we've got the conservatives on 22. -oonn ino. - we've got the conservatives on 22. down two. you've got 22. they're down two. you've got ioionn— 22. they're down two. you've got ioionn nn— 22. they're down two. you've got ioionn nn io— 22. they're down two. you've got ioionn on o oi.— 22. they're down two. you've got labour up to 47. so— 22. they're down two. you've got labour up to 47. so that is a 25 noini— labour up to 47. so that is a 25 noini ioni— labour up to 47. so that is a 25 point lead. and— labour up to 47. so that is a 25 point lead. and then on pm onnnonoi— point lead. and then on pm approval, rishi— point lead. and then on pm approval, rishi is at 21, soonnon-o— approval, rishi is at 21, starmer's at- approval, rishi is at 21,

starmer's at 32, not sure. is it ozo— starmer's at 32, not sure. is it om ion-i— starmer's at 32, not sure. is it 42.7 isn't that— starmer's at 32, not sure. is it 42.7 isn't that just— starmer's at 32, not sure. is it 42? isn't that just the sign of no— 42? isn't that just the sign of one nnoo— 42? isn't that just the sign of the times that— 42? isn't that just the sign of the times that actually decide onnoo— the times that actually decide spite? ino— the times that actually decide spite? the fact— the times that actually decide spite? the fact that labour are ioooing— spite? the fact that labour are ioooing noonio— spite? the fact that labour are leading people are still not oonninooo— leading people are still not convinced by— leading people are still not convinced by sir keir starmer go,— convinced by sir keir starmer no, onoo-no— convinced by sir keir starmer no, inon-no noi— convinced by sir keir starmer no, they're not convinced by him at no, they're not convinced by him oi oi— no, they're not convinced by him oi oii ono— no, they're not convinced by him at all and they're— no, they're not convinced by him at all and they're not they're noi— at all and they're not they're noi nooiin— at all and they're not they're not really convinced by labour . not really convinced by labour. ioionn-o— not really convinced by labour. labour's strongest— not really convinced by labour. labour's strongest card- not really convinced by labour. labour's strongest card at- not really convinced by labour. labour's strongest card at the moment is failure of a conservative government, and that's the fact of it. they're not really offering anything new or different and all the polling, i mean, we run a lot of polling, i mean, we run a lot of polling with tech in the uk as well. and there's i noticed in our latest one that a third of people are even not going to vote or just can't make up their mind. the conservatives are going be the victims of going to be the victims of apathy 2024. so many apathy come 2024. so many people are apathy come 2024. so many people ooning— apathy come 2024. so many people ooning-i— apathy come 2024. so many people ooning-i oon-i— apathy come 2024. so many people are saying,-i can't bring- are saying, look, i can't bring nnooii— are saying, look, i can't bring myself—labour- are saying, look, i can't bringi myself—labour even myself to vote for labour even inongn— myself to vote for labour even inongn-non— myself to vote for labour even though, way, economically though, by the way, economically inono-o— though, by the way, economically inono-o iooo— though, by the way, economically there's less jeopardy going for iooonoi— there's less jeopardy going for rachel-because- there's less jeopardy going for rachel because there's rachel reeves because there's onn— rachel reeves because there's oninlnonon— rachel reeves because there's only paper seemingly between only a paper seemingly between her only a paper seemingly between non—noiioiooi her and jeremy hunt's policies. ini— her and jeremy hunt's policies. ini-. — her and jeremy hunt's policies. ini-. ini— her and jeremy hunt's policies. but-. but actually. her and jeremy hunt's policies. but-. but actually iti but i digress. but actually it might be more wing , but might be more left wing, but that's be left that's jeremy might be more left now. you said that, not me, but noonio— now. you said that, not me, but noonio ono— now. you said that, not me, but people are literally— you said that, not me, but people are literally saying they are people are literally saying they ono-inon— people are literally saying they one-inon ono-

people are literally saying they are-they are so- people are literally saying they are they are so cross are 50 cross. they are 50 cross niin— are 50 cross. they are 50 cross niin ino— are so cross. they are so cross with the conservatives. they iooi— with the conservatives. they iooi inoi— with the conservatives. they feel that boris— with the conservatives. they feel that boris johnson squandered— feel that boris johnson squandered golden opportunity, squandered a golden opportunity, that squandered a golden opportunity, inoi inon-no— squandered a golden opportunity, that they're-going— squandered a golden opportunity, that they're going to go lib that they're not going to go lib non— that they're not going to go lib non noiinon— that they're not going to go lib dem halfway house. they're iiionoiin— dem halfway house. they're iiionoiin iooi— dem halfway house. they're literally just not going to ioinon— literally just not going to ioinon . — literally just not going to bother . no. _ literally just not going to bother . \ni:?i ' “i: literally just not going to bother. \i:?i “i: literally just not going to- bother. no. and i think we saw that the local elections was that in the local elections was actually lots and lots of conservative voters as including conservative voters as including conservative members and activists just sitting on their hands. and it's not just the squandered opportunity . me. hands. and it's not just the squandered opportunity. me. i'm going to leave it there,- 23: “ can me. i'm going to leave it there, david, iooi— going to leave it there, david, inoi iooonoo— going to leave it there, david, just because i— going to leave it there, david, just because i know that john oionn— just because i know that john oionn ioino— just because i know that john glenn joins us— just because i know that john glenn joins us now. so, iiinioion— glenn joins us now. so, iiinioion i— glenn joins us now. so, minister, i hope you can hear noon-n— minister, i hope you can hear noon-n nonn- minister, i hope you can hear me. you very much for me. thank you very much for ioining— me. thank you very much for ioining-inio— me. thank you very much for joining this morning. and joining me this morning. and non—nonn- joining me this morning. and. now,_your capacity now, obviously, in your capacity of now, obviously, in your capacity oi—oi— now, obviously, in your capacity oi—oi ino- of chief secretary of the inooonnn — of chief secretary of the treasury, must ask you about of chief secretary of the treeinflationiust ask you about of chief secretary of the treeinflation rate. sk you about of chief secretary of the treeinflation rate. whati about our inflation rate. what inionooio— our inflation rate. what interests me- our inflation rate. what interests me is that a couple of non— interests me is that a couple of ioioni snnon— interests me is that a couple of rishi sunak deliverables seem undeliverable.— rishi sunak deliverables seem undeliverable. mr glenn. you've got undeliverable. mr glenn. you've goi nin — undeliverable. mr glenn. you've goi nin noniing— undeliverable. mr glenn. you've got him wanting to bring iniioiion— got him wanting to bring inflation down to 5. that oooon-i— inflation down to 5. that doesn't seem _ inflation down to 5. that doesn't seem to be manageable niinin— doesn't seem to be manageable niinin o— doesn't seem to be manageable niinin o noon.— doesn't seem to be manageable within a year. it— doesn't seem to be manageable within a year. it wasn't even inoi— within a year. it wasn't even that ambitious— within a year. it wasn't even that ambitious a— within a year. it wasn't even that ambitious a target. he's oioo— that ambitious a target. he's oioo ioinoo— that ambitious a target. he's also talked about bringing down the also talked about bringing down ino-noi— also talked about bringing down ino-noi no— also talked about bringing down the -yet we found- also talked about bringing down the yet we found out the debt. and yet we found out inio— the debt. and yet we found out this-britain's— the debt. and yet we found out this-britain's debt- the debt. and yet we found out this britain's debt is 100% this week britain's debt is 100% of this week britain's debt is 100% oi oni- — this week britain's debt is 100% oi oni- nnoi-o— this week britain's debt is 100% of gdp. what's going wrong here? nou— of gdp. what's going wrong here? noii no— of gdp. what's going wrong here? noii no ooi— of gdp. what's going wrong here? well he set out— of gdp. what's going wrong here?

well he set out the— of gdp. what's going wrong here? well he set out the targets on the well he set out the targets on one on — well he set out the targets on one on oi— well he set out the targets on the 6th of january for this year . i— the 6th of january for this year . i nooonigoo— the 6th of january for this year . i recognise they're- . i recognise they're challenging targets, he said at the start, although not everyone believed him that they wouldn't believed him that they wouldn't be easy to fulfil. believed him that they wouldn't be easy to fulfil . well, be easy to fulfil. well, obviously what we're facing in terms of inflationary pressures in the uk is really in the uk economy is really significant . we've got three significant. we've got three main tools of dealing with that interest rate policy. my work controlling public spending and then supporting families through that. then supporting families through that . you're right to show the that. you're right to show the fact that we have a significant amount of debt. you know, we shut down the economy three years ago, essentially borrowed a lot of money with a furlough and other support schemes came out that with period of out of that with a period of high consequential high inflation, consequential of the we have higher the war. and we have higher interest as a interest payments as a government due to interest rates going up. that very, very going up. that is a very, very challenging set of circumstances. but ones that we're meet and we're determined to meet and should dealing with inflation is the major threat. is some of this the fault of the bank of england? governor andrew bailey? he england? governor andrew bailey? no ononio— england? governor andrew bailey? he should—much- he should have acted much gnionon— he should have acted much quicker, shouldn't he? if you ioon—

look back november 2021, inionooi— look back november 2021, interest rates— look back november 2021, interest rates were still 0.5. onon— interest rates were still 0.5. onon in— interest rates were still 0.5. over in america. - interest rates were still 0.5. over in america. they've managed inoin— over in america. they've managed their inflation— over in america. they've managed their inflation rate— over in america. they've managed their inflation rate better iooonoo— their inflation rate better because they _ their inflation rate better because they put interest rates up sooner . well,— because they put interest rates up sooner . well, the because they put interest rates up sooner. well, the prime iiinioion— up sooner. well, the prime minister himself was one of the non— minister himself was one of the non ooniiooi— minister himself was one of the very earliest people in this oonninn— very earliest people in this oonninn io— very earliest people in this country to talk— very earliest people in this country to talk about the inflationary— country to talk about the inflationary pressures. when he was chancellor, when i was working with economic working with him as economic secretary. as you know, the bank of england is independent of government. work closely with government. we work closely with them, but they make those decisions. have they made the wrong our rates by wrong decision? our rates by half a percent last week? i'm not to commentate. i'm to not here to commentate. i'm to here with the bank here work closely with the bank of who don't want of england people who don't want us to be squabbling amongst ourselves. we should be ourselves. what we should be doing having a committed and doing is having a committed and unhed doing is having a committed and united plan to deal with high inflation in our economy . that inflation in our economy. that is what we're doing in government and that is what the governor of the bank of england is with the interest rate is doing with the interest rate decisions. one of the panellists on—ionoi- decisions. one of the panellists on_panel-made on my people's panel has made the on my people's panel has made ino-no— on my people's panel has made the-he doesn't- on my people's panel has made the he doesn't think the point that he doesn't think inoi— the point that he doesn't think that—ministers- the point that he doesn't think that—ministers are| the point that he doesn't think. that—ministers are in that government ministers are in ionon— that government ministers are in ionon niin— that government ministers are in touch with the— that government ministers are in touch with the public. the gnooiion— touch with the public. the question .from - touch with the public. the question from him do you question was from him do you

nnon— question was from him do you know—oni- question was from him do you know—out there?| know how bad it is out there? no— know how bad it is out there? nno-onono— know how bad it is out there? nno-onono oi— know how bad it is out there? are-aware of the- know how bad it is out there? are aware of the risk to are you aware of the risk to noonio— are you aware of the risk to noonio iooing— are you aware of the risk to people losing their homes who've got people losing their homes who've goi io— people losing their homes who've goi no niiiion— people losing their homes who've got 1.3 million people who inon-no— got 1.3 million people who they're coming— got 1.3 million people who they're coming off fixed they're coming off their fixed nooo— they're coming off their fixed noio nongogoo— they're coming off their fixed rate mortgages very soon? much is rate mortgages very soon? much io nooo— rate mortgages very soon? much io nooo oi— rate mortgages very soon? much is made of household debt, but ooinoiin— is made of household debt, but actually,-about_ is made of household debt, but actually, about businesses? actually, what about businesses? nnoo— actually, what about businesses? what-businesses- actually, what about businesses? what businesses that are what about businesses that are onnggiing— what about businesses that are onnggiing-ino- what about businesses that are struggling the bills? as struggling to pay the bills? as conservatives _ conservatives have put up oonnonoiion— conservatives have put up corporation tax- conservatives have put up corporation tax literally on no nnoiiio— corporation tax literally on no profits because _ corporation tax literally on no profits because nobody seems to be profits because nobody seems to no noting— profits because nobody seems to no noning onn— profits because nobody seems to be making any money. so surely non-no— be making any money. so surely you're—businessesl you're worried about businesses ioioing—noonio- folding as well as people oinnggiing— folding as well as people oinnggiing io— folding as well as people struggling to their struggling to pay their nongogoo— struggling to pay their nongogoo 7- struggling to pay their mortgages ? well, we're worried mortgages? well, we're worried oooni— mortgages? well, we're worried oioni oii— mortgages? well, we're worried about all aspects— mortgages? well, we're worried about all aspects of delivering. oononnnioni— about all aspects of delivering. government policy— about all aspects of delivering. government policy is— about all aspects of delivering. government policy is effectively as possible. i mean , what i can as possible. i mean, what i can say to you, of course, i'm aware of how difficult this is. i have constituents who email me expressing their concerns, all members of parliament who are ministers do that, and that's why the chancellor with why the chancellor met with lenders, met with the fca on friday, both to challenge them on what's happening in terms of passing on increased interest rates , but also to productively rates, but also to productively come out with some interventions with respect to being able to move over to interest only for

six months with no penalties consequential of that, i'd be able to talk to lenders without any risk to credit rating , as any risk to credit rating, as well as clarifying the 12 month interval from repossession . but interval from repossession. but why is there talk you're- why is there talk you're making , oionn— why is there talk you're making , oionn why— why is there talk you're making , oionn nnn io— why is there talk you're making , glenn, why is there talk then inoi— , glenn, why is there talk then no ii— , glenn, why is there talk then no ii nigni— , glenn, why is there talk then that it might be— , glenn, why is there talk then that it might be favourable for us that it might be favourable for no io— that it might be favourable for no io onion— that it might be favourable for us to enter recession in order to us to enter recession in order io bang— us to enter recession in order io ining onio— us to enter recession in order to bring this inflation rate oonno— to bring this inflation rate down? because people who own onoii— down? because people who own small businesses— down? because people who own small businesses and indeed noonio— small businesses and indeed noonio nno— small businesses and indeed noonio nno ono— small businesses and indeed people who are worried about men— people who are worried about their mortgages— people who are worried about their mortgages will be tearing inoin— their mortgages will be tearing non-oni— their mortgages will be tearing their-out, anyone- their mortgages will be tearing their out, anyone that's their hair out, anyone that's inionooioo— their hair out, anyone that's interested growth will think interested in growth will think it's-economic- interested in growth will think it's economic lunacy to it's complete economic lunacy to be it's complete economic lunacy to no ioining— it's complete economic lunacy to be talking about— it's complete economic lunacy to be talking about forcing ourselves— be talking about forcing ourselves into recession. this is ourselves into recession. this io nonogoo— ourselves into recession. this is managed decline on steroids, ion-i— is managed decline on steroids, ion-i ii— is managed decline on steroids, ion-i ii 7 — is managed decline on steroids, isn't it 7 well,— is managed decline on steroids, isn't it 7 well, i'm— is managed decline on steroids, isn't it ? well, i'm not- is managed decline on steroids, isn't it ? inn?“ “g isn't it? well, i'm not talking about a recession. what i'm talking about is halving inflation. the prime minister's top priority. that's what the chancellor, the prime minister and are completely. when and myself are completely. when will that happen to— i?“i: itizi?“ when will that happen to achieving ? will that happen to achieving? non.— will that happen to achieving? noii. ino— will that happen to achieving? well, the prime— will that happen to achieving? well, the prime minister- will that happen to achieving? well, the prime minister has set out the objective to halve inflation by the end of the year and we are working to that goal. he has said, and i recognise

that it he has said, and i recognise thatitis he has said, and i recognise that it is going to be challenging to do that, but no doubt you will hold to us account at the end of the year. you can bet your bottom dollar on—nnoni on that. thank you very much inoooo—inio- indeed for joining me this nonning— indeed for joining me this morning thank indeed for joining me this morning-thank thank morning. john. thank you. thank you morning. john. thank you. thank non .— morning. john. thank you. thank non . in— morning. john. thank you. thank you . in non— morning. john. thank you. thank you. i'm now joined by sirjake nonn— you. i'm now joined by sirjake nonnn ionon— you. i'm now joined by sirjake berry, former chairman of the oonoonoiino— berry, former chairman of the conservative-mp. berry, former chairman of the conservative-mp ,i berry, former chairman of the conservative mp , i conservative party and mp, i nnon— conservative party and mp, i know-goi— conservative party and mp, i know-got quite- conservative party and mp, i know got quite strong views know has got quite strong views oooni— know has got quite strong views oioni-oi— know has got quite strong views about-of england.- about the batik of england. jake, did about the bank of england. jake, iii-noon— about the bank of england. jake, iii-noon ionn— about the bank of england. jake, did hearjohn glenn about the bank of england. jake, did hear john glenn there? did you hear john glenn there? he did you hear john glenn there? no-ining— did you hear john glenn there? he .tryingldeflect- did you hear john glenn there? he trying deflect any he was trying to deflect any iiono— he was trying to deflect any blame-andrew- he was trying to deflect any blame andrew bailey. but blame from andrew bailey. but nnoi-o— blame from andrew bailey. but nnoi-o nonn— blame from andrew bailey. but what's your view?— blame from andrew bailey. but what's your view? he to blame what's your view? is he to blame for what's your view? is he to blame ion onio— what's your view? is he to blame for this inflation— what's your view? is he to blame for this inflation rate being ino— for this inflation rate being no nignooi— for this inflation rate being the highest in— for this inflation rate being the highest in g7? john well the highest in the g7? john well , gooo— the highest in the g7? john well , gooo nonning— the highest in the g7? john well , good morning, camilla. look, oioonin— , good morning, camilla. look, oioonin ono— , good morning, camilla. look, clearly and before— , good morning, camilla. look, clearly and before coming on the show i was looking the show today, i was looking at the bank prediction bank of england's prediction wins just from 18 months ago. and prediction that and their prediction was that inflation would be 2. now it's over 8% or 10, depending on some measures. the bank of england has been asleep at the wheel . has been asleep at the wheel. the united kingdom central bank has acted far too slowly and mortgage payers and businesses are paying the price . draghi are paying the price. draghi bailey is he just a sort of treasury orthodoxy stooge? should he consider his

shouldyhe consider his position should he consider his position on— should he consider his position on? non,— should he consider his position on? well, andrew— should he consider his position on? well, andrew bailey is nnnoning— on? well, andrew bailey is pursuing what— on? well, andrew bailey is pursuing what i call abenomics, nnion— pursuing what i call abenomics, nnion io— pursuing what i call abenomics, nnion io ino— pursuing what i call abenomics, which is the sort— pursuing what i call abenomics, which is the sort of flawed economic principle of the inooonnn— economic principle of the inooonnn ono— economic principle of the treasury and i— economic principle of the treasury and i think i think the notion — treasury and i think i think the notion no— treasury and i think i think the problem he has— treasury and i think i think the problem he has is— treasury and i think i think the problem he has is that every nnooioiion— problem he has is that every prediction he— problem he has is that every prediction he has made is wrong. so prediction he has made is wrong. so i— prediction he has made is wrong. so i oon-i— prediction he has made is wrong. so i oon-i noni— prediction he has made is wrong. so i don't want to— prediction he has made is wrong. so i don't want to get— prediction he has made is wrong. so i don't want to get into- so i don't want to get into predicting his future because i might fall the same trap. might fall into the same trap. but what do you think? should he consider his position?— i:i?i “

reprieve, haven't we, for our onongn iniio— reprieve, haven't we, for our energy bills now— reprieve, haven't we, for our energy bills now over the summer, not— energy bills now over the summer, not least because it's so summer, not least because it's oo—noning- summer, not least because it's oo—noning io| so sunny, we're not having to put— so sunny, we're not having to noi-ino— so sunny, we're not having to put-the radiators.- put on the radiators. but ii put on the radiators. but i- mean,_are worried mean, presumably you are worried oooni— mean, presumably you are worried oioni-ooononn— mean, presumably you are worried about-economy-you. mean, presumably you are worried about economy you to about the economy causing you to iooo— about the economy causing you to iooo oooio— about the economy causing you to lose seats come— about the economy causing you to lose seats come 20,— about the economy causing you to lose seats come 20, 24. are non,— lose seats come 20, 24. are wan, nnon— lose seats come 20, 24. are wan, nnon i— lose seats come 20, 24. are well, when i talk- lose seats come 20, 24. are well, when i talk to people here in rossendale_ well, when i talk to people here in rossendale and— well, when i talk to people here in rossendale and darwen ooniiio— in rossendale and darwen camilla, one— in rossendale and darwen camilla, one of- in rossendale and darwen camilla, one of the main things inon— camilla, one of the main things inon ono— camilla, one of the main things they are concerned— camilla, one of the main things they are concerned about is this ingo— they are concerned about is this nngo inonoooo— they are concerned about is this huge increase in— they are concerned about is this huge increase in mortgage rates. so huge increase in mortgage rates. so i— huge increase in mortgage rates. so i noooinio— huge increase in mortgage rates. so i welcome the— huge increase in mortgage rates. so i welcome the chancellor's progress he made with the banks, enabung progress he made with the banks, enabling people to flick on just to pay the interest rather than capital sum back for six months. i just don't think this crisis is going to be over in six months. and that's why i've been calling reintroduction of calling for a reintroduction of miras, which is a tax cut for everyone with a mortgage or expanding smi to people beyond people just on benefits . s to people just on benefits. s to try and help families . if you try and help families. if you read in the papers today, camilla, you will have seen that there's a potential 10% drop in property prices in the next 12 months, predicted that puts us on the brink of a financial crisis in terms of the amount of wealth that we have in this

country invested in property, we absolutely have to act. and i don't think the approach , don't think the approach, frankly, andrew baillieu at frankly, of andrew baillieu at the bank or the sort of government wait and see approach is one that serving my is one that is serving my constituents. do is one that is serving my constituents . do you think that constituents. do you think that the constituents. do you think that ino noooni— constituents. do you think that the recent economic— , tunic; do you think that the recent economic calamity , the recent economic calamity, ino— the recent economic calamity, ino iooo— the recent economic calamity, ino iooo oi— the recent economic calamity, the idea of debt— the recent economic calamity, the idea of debt being now 100% of the idea of debt being now 100% oi onn— the idea of debt being now 100% oi an, ino— the idea of debt being now 100% of gdp, the fact— the idea of debt being now 100% of gdp, the fact that the gilt noioo— of gdp, the fact that the gilt noioo ono— of gdp, the fact that the gilt yields are actually worse than men— yields are actually worse than they-under— yields are actually worse than they-under liz- yields are actually worse than they under liz truss has in they were under liz truss has in non— they were under liz truss has in some way vindicated trussonomics nou— some way vindicated trussonomics noii .— some way vindicated trussonomics noii , i— some way vindicated trussonomics noii , i ininn— some way vindicated trussonomics well , i think everyone involved well, i think everyone involved in nooo— well, i think everyone involved in truss's government, including me .— in truss's government, including no , noo— in truss's government, including no , noo io— in truss's government, including me , has to accept— in truss's government, including me , has to accept that the me, has to accept that the implementation of the plan left a implementation of the plan left o ioi— implementation of the plan left o ioi io— implementation of the plan left o ioi io io— implementation of the plan left a lot to be desired— implementation of the plan left a lot to be desired , desired a lot to be desired, desired iooi— a lot to be desired, desired inoi noing— a lot to be desired, desired just using the— a lot to be desired, desired just using the art of british understatement . . understatement. but the view was within that cabinet is that britain was sort of careering over the cliff and we needed to do a u—turn as quickly as possible. and that could be done by creating growth, by cutting taxes.i by creating growth, by cutting taxes. i still think that's the right thing to do. i think there is a sort of managed decline , an is a sort of managed decline, an approach from the bank of england , particularly with the england, particularly with the thought that they have to push

us into recession as the only way recovering . i way of britain recovering. i believe in growth, growth, growth and that's what liz truss went it's a shame frankly. went for. it's a shame frankly. we just made massive we just made such a massive implementing policies. implementing the policies. let's just move on to matters noiiiiooi— let's just move on to matters noiiiiooi. no— let's just move on to matters political. we had— let's just move on to matters political. we had frank luntz , i political. we had frank luntz, i nonooo,— political. we had frank luntz, i beige, in— political. we had frank luntz, i believe, in the— political. we had frank luntz, i believe, in the house of commons iooi— believe, in the house of commons iooi noon. — believe, in the house of commons iooi noon. no— believe, in the house of commons last week. he addressed the 1922 oonniiioo. — last week. he addressed the 1922 oonniiioo. no— last week. he addressed the 1922 committee. he basically said to ion— committee. he basically said to ion-nonno— committee. he basically said to ion-nonno goi- tory mps, if you've got a majority— tory mps, if you've got a noioniin oi— tory mps, if you've got a majority of 15,000 or less gnoioo— majority of 15,000 or less gnoioo, non-no— majority of 15,000 or less quotes, you're likely gone. jake i quotes, you're likely gone. jake i noio— quotes, you're likely gone. jake i noio inoi— quotes, you're likely gone. jake i note that your— quotes, you're likely gone. jake i note that your majority is 9522. — i note that your majority is 9522. no — i note that your majority is 9522. no non— i note that your majority is 9522. are you considering a career change— 9522. are you considering a career change come 2024? well i ininn— career change come 2024? well i ininn nnon— career change come 2024? well i think when you've— career change come 2024? well i think when you've got a traditionally— think when you've got a traditionally marginal seat, you oinono— traditionally marginal seat, you oinono nono— traditionally marginal seat, you always have to _ traditionally marginal seat, you always have to view every oiooiion — always have to view every election with _ always have to view every election with some trepidation ono— election with some trepidation ono ooiooioo— election with some trepidation and selected here. cc; 3: and selected here. i'm delighted to be fighting rossendale and darwen again . it's never an easy darwen again. it's never an easy election here. you have to work really hard for people's votes . really hard for people's votes. this is probably going to be the toughest i've ever toughest election i've ever faced. do think , though, if faced. i do think, though, if the does deliver the prime minister does deliver on his promises and i hugely support his work , his sort of

support his work, his sort of early identification as inflation, as the greatest enemy of the united kingdom, he does deserve credit for that. we'll see a swing back to the conservatives. and i hope and believe that the voters here in rossendale darwen may just rossendale and darwen may just have roll of the dice have one more roll of the dice with trying with me. i'm certainly trying to persuade anyway, camilla, persuade them anyway, camilla, one question. actually. one more question. actually. bernard jenkin, _ bernard jenkin, your conservative been conservative colleague, has been ooooniioo— conservative colleague, has been ooooniioo in— conservative colleague, has been described by other— conservative colleague, has been described by other colleagues as a described by other colleagues as o oonono— described by other colleagues as o oonono . nno— described by other colleagues as a coward . and according to a coward. and according to a nononi— a coward. and according to a nononilino— a coward. and according to a report-the mail- a coward. and according to a report the mail on sunday, report in the mail on sunday, i nnon— report in the mail on sunday, i know non-no— report in the mail on sunday, i know you'relfierce- report in the mail on sunday, i know you're fierce supporter know you're a fierce supporter of know you're a fierce supporter oi-ionnoon— know you're a fierce supporter oi-ionnoon in— know you're a fierce supporter of johnson in going below of boris johnson in going below nooon— of boris johnson in going below nooon ono— of boris johnson in going below radar and failing— of boris johnson in going below radar and failing to address his nonngoio— radar and failing to address his own partygate scandal. has jenkin— own partygate scandal. has ionnin ioon— own partygate scandal. has jenkin been a— own partygate scandal. has jenkin been a coward? quick iono— jenkin been a coward? quick answer. jake yes,— jenkin been a coward? quick answer. jake yes, right, right. inonn— answer. jake yes, right, right. inonn non— answer. jake yes, right, right. inonn non nonn— answer. jake yes, right, right. thank you very much indeed for no— thank you very much indeed for no .— thank you very much indeed for no . no— thank you very much indeed for no . no oo— thank you very much indeed for that . we do love— thank you very much indeed for that . we do love it— thank you very much indeed for that . we do love it when that. we do love it when politicians— that. we do love it when politicians answer straight gnooiiono— politicians answer straight questions with— politicians answer straight questions with straight answers. inonn— questions with straight answers.i inonn—ionnn thank you very much, jake berry. noio— thank you very much, jake berry. noio-oono— thank you very much, jake berry. noio-oono on— thank you very much, jake berry. lots come on today's lots more to come on today's ooniiio— lots more to come on today's camilla tominey_ lots more to come on today's camilla tominey show. going lots more to come on today's ca be la tominey show. going lots more to come on today's ca be speakingty show. going lots more to come on today's ca be speaking to show. going lots more to come on today's ca be speaking to tony going lots more to come on today's ca be speaking to tony blair'sing to be speaking to tony blair's ionon— to be speaking to tony blair's former - staff, - to be speaking to tony blair's former staff, jonathan former chief of staff, jonathan ionon, — former chief of staff, jonathan powell, -whether. former chief of staff, jonathan powell, whether sir powell, to discuss whether sir non— powell, to discuss whether sir non-noo— powell, to discuss whether sir keir-has-what- powell, to discuss whether sir keir-has-what it. keir starmer has got what it ionoo— keir starmer has got what it ionoo io— keir starmer has got what it takes to secure _ keir starmer has got what it takes to secure a— keir starmer has got what it takes to secure a labour victory ono— takes to secure a labour victory on in— takes to secure a labour victory on in going— takes to secure a labour victory on in going io— takes to secure a labour victory and i'm going to be joined by ionon— and i'm going to be joined by former—kwasi- and i'm going to be joined by- former_kwasi kwarteng former chancellor kwasi kwarteng

just welcome back. plenty more to just welcome back. plenty more io oo— just welcome back. plenty more to come on today's— just welcome back. plenty more to come on today's camilla ioninon— to come on today's camilla tominey show,— to come on today's camilla tominey show, including tony iioin-o— tominey show, including tony blair's former— tominey show, including tony blair's former chief of staff, ionoinon— blair's former chief of staff, jonathan powell, who i'll be onooning— jonathan powell, who i'll be onooning io— jonathan powell, who i'll be onooning io in— jonathan powell, who i'll be speaking to in just a minute. in— speaking to in just a minute. in oioo— speaking to in just a minute. in oioo going— speaking to in just a minute. i'm also going to— speaking to in just a minute. i'm also going to be in i'm also going to be joined in

ino— i'm also going to be joined in ino-ionnon- i'm also going to be joined in the former chancellor the studio by former chancellor nnooi — kwasi kwarteng, who'll be oioonooing— kwasi kwarteng, who'll be oioonooing .— kwasi kwarteng, who'll be discussing , well, inflation, of discussing, well, inflation, of course, interest— discussing, well, inflation, of course, interest rates and nnoinon— course, interest rates and whetherlwas- course, interest rates and whether was all his. and liz whether it was all his. and liz nooo— whether it was all his. and liz truss's fault. _ whether it was all his. and liz truss's fault. i'm— whether it was all his. and liz truss's fault. i'm also going to be truss's fault. i'm also going to no onooning— truss's fault. i'm also going to be speaking foreign be speaking to former foreign soonoionn— be speaking to former foreign secretary rifkind be speaking to former foreign. secretary—rifkind to secretary sir malcolm rifkind to nonioo— secretary sir malcolm rifkind to provide _ latest . provide analysis on the latest nono-nognon- provide analysis on the latest news wagner group's news on the wagner group's oooonii— news on the wagner group's assault-moscow- news on the wagner group's assault moscow and tony assault on moscow and tony nnion,— assault on moscow and tony abbott, former— assault on moscow and tony abbott, former prime minister of anoinoiio— abbott, former prime minister of anoinoiio .— abbott, former prime minister of australia , will— abbott, former prime minister of australia , will studio australia, will be in the studio for-exclusive— australia, will be in the studio for exclusive interview. all for an exclusive interview. all inoi— for an exclusive interview. all onoo-ino— for an exclusive interview. all that-the news- for an exclusive interview. all that the news with tatiana that after the news with tatiana sononoz— that after the news with tatiana sononoz .— that after the news with tatiana sanchez . camila— that after the news with tatiana sanchez . camila thank you very sanchez. camila thank you very nnon— sanchez. camila thank you very nnon ono— sanchez. camila thank you very noon on gooo— sanchez. camila thank you very much and good morning. this is the much and good morning. this is one ioiooi— much and good morning. this is the latest from _ much and good morning. this is the latest from the— much and good morning. this is the latest from the newsroom. ino— the latest from the newsroom. ino noniin— the latest from the newsroom. the kremlin says— the latest from the newsroom. the kremlin says the criminal onongoo— the kremlin says the criminal charges against— the kremlin says the criminal charges against the leader of the charges against the leader of one nognon— charges against the leader of the wagner mercenary group will be the wagner mercenary group will ng_ng-n_ the wagner mercenary group will io—no-ii go- be dropped and he'll go to ioionno— be dropped and he'll go to ioionno oo— be dropped and he'll go to belarus as yevgeny prigozhin iooi— belarus as yevgeny prigozhin iooi nigni— belarus as yevgeny prigozhin last night ordered his fighters to last night ordered his fighters io innn— last night ordered his fighters io innn ioon— last night ordered his fighters to turn back from moscow to onoio — to turn back from moscow to avoid bloodshed— to turn back from moscow to avoid bloodshed . “i; ninziz; i?“ avoid bloodshed. they were on their way to the city to remove russian commanders . prigozhin russian commanders. prigozhin blames mishandling the war blames for mishandling the war in ukraine. local media has reported that all transport restrictions in the rostov region have now been lifted . the region have now been lifted. the prime minister has set out what

he's calling the biggest workforce training expansion of the nhs. writing in the sunday times, mr sunak said his nhs long term workforce plan will aim to train , retain and reform aim to train, retain and reform the uk's experienced nhs staff . the uk's experienced nhs staff. he says as a country we rely on attracting talented people from overseas rather than recruiting at home. mr sunak described the 15 year plan as the cornerstone of his government's vision for a better health care system . better health care system. several police forces have asked people not to call 999 after a technical fault is impacting a number of forces across the country. the metropolitan police says the system has been restored in the last few minutes, though, but in greater manchester, south wales police and in scotland, officials said many emergency calls were not connecting. they're advising people to call 101 in an emergency for police and fire or 111 in a medical emergency.

kwasi jeremy hunt is urging homeowners to be patient with recent interest rate hikes, writing in the mail on sunday, the chancellor says raising interest rates is one of the most effective methods of squashing inflation. he says he's absolutely committed to supporting the bank of england and the government will take the necessary steps to kerb inflation. the central bank this week issued its 13th interest rate hike in a row , this time by rate hike in a row, this time by half a percentage point , from half a percentage point, from 4.5% to 5% in the sharpest increase since february . human increase since february. human remains have been found where british actor julian sands went missing in the area of the san gabriel mountains near los angeles in the us. they've been transported to the local coroner's office pending positive identification action. it's expected that should be completed by next week . the 65 completed by next week. the 65 year old failed to return from a hike in the mount baldy area of the southern californian mountains on january 13th . and

mountains on january 13th. and finally the princess of wales teamed up with tennis champion roger federer to celebrate wimbledon . ball boys and girls. wimbledon. ball boys and girls. kate joined the eight time wimbledon champion and watched a training session where youngsters were hoping to impress selectors and bag one of the 250 spots for the tournament next week. the princess, who is the club's patron, has praised the club's patron, has praised the hard work of the ball boys and girls, describing them as amazingly professional . and this amazingly professional. and this is gb news. we'll have more news as it happens. now it's back to . camilla well , . camilla well, i'm back. i'm going to be onooning— well, i'm back. i'm going to be onooning io— well, i'm back. i'm going to be speaking to jonathan- inn?“ , i'm going to be speaking to jonathan powell, ionon— speaking to jonathan powell, former downing— speaking to jonathan powell, former downing street chief of oioii— former downing street chief of oioii-iinino- former downing street chief of staff, prime minister staff, to former prime minister tony— staff, to former prime minister ionn iioin— staff, to former prime minister ionn nioin. in— staff, to former prime minister tony blair. in just— staff, to former prime minister tony blair. in just moment. tony blair. in just a moment. soon— tony blair. in just a moment. sion—onnnnono, stay tuned. don't go anywhere, iooonoo— stay tuned. don't go anywhere, iooonoo ino— stay tuned. don't go anywhere, because i've-kwasi- stay tuned. don't go anywhere, because i've kwasi kwarteng because i've got kwasi kwarteng in . because i've got kwasi kwarteng in—. ionnon— because i've got kwasi kwarteng in . former chancellor in the studio. former chancellor of in the studio. former chancellor oi ino— in the studio. former chancellor of the exchequer— in the studio. former chancellor of the exchequer under truss of the exchequer under liz truss to of the exchequer under liz truss io ion— of the exchequer under liz truss to talk-inflation- of the exchequer under liz truss

to talk inflation and to talk about inflation and inionooi— to talk about inflation and noooi-.— to talk about inflation and interest-. is- to talk about inflation and interest . is their interest rates. is it their ionno— interest rates. is it their fault?- down - interest rates. is it their- fault?-down-bank of fault? is it down to the bank of ingionoo— fault? is it down to the bank of ingionoolii— fault? is it down to the bank of england?.it the— fault? is it down to the bank of england? it the government? england? is it the government? is england? is it the government? io-snnon— england? is it the government? io-snnon-goool is rishi sunak doing a good onongn—iol enough job? so that'll be a gnooi—nono- enough job? so that'll be a. great—herelthe great interview in here in the oinoio— great interview in here in the studio-moment- great interview in here in the studio-moment .- great interview in here in the studio moment. i'm studio in just a moment. i'm oioo— studio in just a moment. i'm oioo-io— studio in just a moment. i'm also-be speaking. studio in just a moment. i'm also be speaking to studio in just a moment. i'm. also-be speaking to sir also going to be speaking to sir iioiooin— malcolm rifkind, former foreign ooonoionn— secretary, about the russia oiinoiion— secretary, about the russia oiinoiion .— secretary, about the russia situation .1- secretary, about the russiai situation .-i-tony situation. and i think tony nnion— situation. and i think tony abbott something situation. and i think tony- abbott-something to abbott will have something to say abbott will have something to oon—noo- abbott will have something to oon—no-o inol say about that too. he's the ionon— say about that too. he's the former-prime- say about that too. he's the- former-prime minister former australian prime minister nno— former australian prime minister who-threatened— former australian prime minister who threatened square up who once threatened to square up to who once threatened to square up io-no-ii— who once threatened to square up io-no-ii io— who once threatened to square up to we'll be delighted who once threatened to square up to hear we'll be delighted who once threatened to square up to hear whative'll be delighted who once threatened to square up to hear what he's be delighted who once threatened to square up to hear what he's gotdelighted who once threatened to square up to hear what he's got to ighted who once threatened to square up to hear what he's got to sayed to hear what he's got to say oooni— to hear what he's got to say oioni ino— to hear what he's got to say about the wagner group's oiionnioo— about the wagner group's attempted but first, let's attempted coup. but first, let's bang— attempted coup. but first, let's ining ionoinon— attempted coup. but first, let's bring jonathan powell, former nonning— bring jonathan powell, former downing_staff,| downing street chief of staff, to downing street chief of staff, io—iiinioion- downing street chief of staff,| to _ minister tony to former prime minister tony iioin— to former prime minister tony iioin-ino— to former prime minister tony blair, the conversation . blair, into the conversation. ionon— blair, into the conversation. ionon io— blair, into the conversation. lovely to speak— blair, into the conversation. lovely to speak to you this nonning— lovely to speak to you this morning, powell . now, lovely to speak to you this morning, powell. now, note morning, mr powell. now, i note inoi— morning, mr powell. now, i note inoi-in— morning, mr powell. now, i note inoi-in nooi— morning, mr powell. now, i note inoi-in nooi in- morning, mr powell. now, i note that in post in 1999 that you are in post in 1999 nnon— that you are in post in 1999 nnon iniin— that you are in post in 1999 when putin became pm, then in 2000,— when putin became pm, then in 2000, nnon— when putin became pm, then in 2000, nnon no— when putin became pm, then in 2000, when he became president, ion-i— 2000, when he became president, ion-i iii— 2000, when he became president, ion-i iii non— 2000, when he became president, isn't did you ever— 2000, when he became president, isn't did you ever meet him, mr ionon— isn't did you ever meet him, mr ionoii .— isn't did you ever meet him, mr ionoii , nnoi— isn't did you ever meet him, mr powell , what do— isn't did you ever meet him, mr powell , what do you make of isn't did you ever meet him, mr powell, what do you make of him and powell, what do you make of him on nnoi— powell, what do you make of him on no oo— powell, what do you make of him and what do you— powell, what do you make of him and what do you make of the noooni— and what do you make of the noooni-in— and what do you make of the recent-in russia?- and what do you make of the recent in russia? recent events in russia? niooinioin — recent events in russia? absolutely, yes. - recent events in russia? absolutely, yes. we- recent events in russia? absolutely, yes. we did him absolutely, yes. we did meet him . decided to be the . tony blair decided to be the first person actually to go and meet he running meet putin when he was running for president in 1999. and we went to saint petersburg where putin really pushed the boat out. he took us to see where he'd up in a rather he'd grown up in a rather squalid he took

squalid block of flats. he took us peterhof , the palace us to the peterhof, the palace of peter the great, and took of peter the great, and he took us opera where the french us to an opera where the french flag was trampled underfoot , flag was trampled underfoot, which much enjoyed. so, which we very much enjoyed. so, yes went putin. he yes, we went to see putin. he seemed like after yeltsin, a very normal russian leader. yeltsin had been a rather extraordinary character. the first time tony blair met him, he a hug, which he gave him a bear hug, which tony thought until he tony thought was nice until he didn't let go of him. after a minute two. so we were minute or two. so we were deaung minute or two. so we were dealing someone who seemed dealing with someone who seemed normal, i watched him over normal, but i watched him over time those years. eight time in those seven years. eight years become more and years actually become more and more hubristic, you know, cut off from living off from reality, living in luxury and more and more dictatorial and around 2003, he changed. blair had a last changed. tony blair had a last meeting with him in two thousand and he sat with him and seven where he sat with him in summit in the margins of the g8 summit in the margins of the g8 summit in germany, and he wanted to tell he really thought tell him what he really thought . saw by and . so he saw him by himself. and i putin had i went along and putin had a russian interpreter. have i went along and putin had a ru say,i interpreter. have i went along and putin had a ru say, he terpreter. have i went along and putin had a rusay, he complained have i went along and putin had a rusay, he complained aboutve to say, he complained about killing people territory killing people on our territory using nuclear material about his autocracy. and putin gave it back two barrels. was back with two barrels. he was not all. he was not apologetic at all. he was very, tough and rough. and very, very tough and rough. and at stage , i think had at that stage, i think he had become is today. and

become what he is today. and what's your instinct about the effect of this attempted coup on his popularity and indeed longevity at the kremlin ? i longevity at the kremlin? i mean, prigozhin doesn't need to nono— mean, prigozhin doesn't need to none ioon— mean, prigozhin doesn't need to have been successful to have oigniiiooniin— have been successful to have significantly weakened the ionooion— significantly weakened the russian president . are we russian president. are we onioning— russian president. are we entering the— russian president. are we entering the end game here, do you ininn— entering the end game here, do you think, jonathan ? i think you think, jonathan? i think ii-o— you think, jonathan? i think in early— you think, jonathan? i think no oonin io— you think, jonathan? i think it's early to tell— you think, jonathan? i think it's early to tell exactly what ino— it's early to tell exactly what the consequences of this are iooonoo— the consequences of this are because we don't— the consequences of this are because we don't know exactly nnoo— because we don't know exactly nnoi nonnonoo— because we don't know exactly what happened and how. but i innn— what happened and how. but i ininn o— what happened and how. but i think a couple— what happened and how. but i think a couple of— what happened and how. but i think a couple of things are clear. firstly, that it's not over. clear. firstly, that it's not over . the progression still will over. the progression still will hope he can have a future in russia. had to become russia. he had hoped to become a leader in future and leader himself in the future and i maintains that i think he still maintains that hope. secondly, clearly hope. and secondly, it's clearly weakened putin. putin had looked invulnerable . now that invulnerable. now that invulnerability pierced invulnerability has been pierced and that there'll be and that means there'll be others in the who've been others in the elite who've been waiting time , be waiting their time, who'll be looking chance. so i do looking for a chance. so i do think changed the think this has changed the equafion equation as far as putin is concerned. longer looks concerned. he no longer looks like going to be there like he's going to be there forever. he's getting a bit forever. he's getting on a bit in he's very cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand he's very cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand so he's very cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand so that he's very cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand so that couldlery cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand so that could be' cut off forever. he's getting on a bit iiand so that could be the off . and so that could be the beginning of the end. when we look what we look back, this may be what we say over. just bring

look back, this may be what we sa back over. just bring look back, this may be what we sa back to over. just bring look back, this may be what we saback to labour . just bring look back, this may be what we sa back to labour matters. ring look back, this may be what we sa back to labour matters. now, it back to labour matters. now, i it back to labour matters. now, i noio— it back to labour matters. now, i noio inon — it back to labour matters. now, i note from yougov— it back to labour matters. now, i note from yougov polling over the i note from yougov polling over one weekend— i note from yougov polling over the weekend that— i note from yougov polling over the weekend that actually starmer's pm _ the weekend that actually starmer's pm approval rating is nignon— starmer's pm approval rating is nignon onon— starmer's pm approval rating is higher than rishi— starmer's pm approval rating is higher than rishi sunak. it's ten higher than rishi sunak. it's ion noinio— higher than rishi sunak. it's ten points higher is on 32, but it ten points higher is on 32, but ii oooon-i— ten points higher is on 32, but it doesn't exactly— ten points higher is on 32, but it doesn't exactly inspire confidence— it doesn't exactly inspire confidence that not sure is on oz. — confidence that not sure is on oz. i— confidence that not sure is on oz. i noon— confidence that not sure is on 42. i mean, has— confidence that not sure is on 42. i mean, has starmer got the onion— 42. i mean, has starmer got the iioin iooion— 42. i mean, has starmer got the iioin iooion 7— 42. i mean, has starmer got the blair factor ? do— 42. i mean, has starmer got the blair factor ? do you worry that blair factor? do you worry that he blair factor? do you worry that no oooon-i— blair factor? do you worry that he doesn't have— blair factor? do you worry that he doesn't have the charisma to iono— he doesn't have the charisma to iono ino— he doesn't have the charisma to no no nonin— he doesn't have the charisma to take the party over— he doesn't have the charisma to take the party over the top when it take the party over the top when ii oo— take the party over the top when ii io— take the party over the top when it comes to 2024— take the party over the top when it comes to 2024 .— take the party over the top when it comes to 2024. _ take the party over the top when it comes to 2024 . iz? : g it comes to 2024. he doesn't have the charisma of tony blair, but no, i don't worry about it because i think what the public wants actually is wants at the moment actually is a of hands. they had a safe pair of hands. they had enough histrionics, enough drama over the last years. and over the last few years. and what really like is someone what they really like is someone who can be confident, knows who they can be confident, knows how things , has managed how to run things, has managed things past and is going things in the past and is going to safe. and i think that's to be safe. and i think that's where is , is going where keir starmer is, is going to win. and what do you think of oono-ino— to win. and what do you think of some .the policies?— to win. and what do you think of some .the policies? i- “ and what do you think of some the policies? i mean, some of the policies? i mean, inono— some of the policies? i mean, there-obviously- some of the policies? i mean, there obviously controversy some of the policies? i mean, there thadiusly controversy some of the policies? i mean, there thad to ly controversy some of the policies? i mean, there thad to damp:roversy some of the policies? i mean, there thad to damp iantrsy some of the policies? i mean, there thad to damp ian down when they had to damp ian down oononioi— when they had to damp ian down somewhat. they're— when they had to damp ian down somewhat. they're £28 billion ononoing— somewhat. they're £28 billion spending pledge— somewhat. they're £28 billion spending pledge on their green

nnoononiin— spending pledge on their green prosperity plan- _ spending pledge on their green prosperity plan. that amount of ionnoning— prosperity plan. that amount of borrowing might— prosperity plan. that amount of borrowing might seem lunacy on the borrowing might seem lunacy on one iooo— borrowing might seem lunacy on one iooo oi— borrowing might seem lunacy on the face of the— borrowing might seem lunacy on the face of the debt reaching ioon— the face of the debt reaching ioon oi— the face of the debt reaching ioon oi oni— the face of the debt reaching 100% of gdp .— the face of the debt reaching 100% of gdp . they've also got 100% of gdp. they've also got inio— 100% of gdp. they've also got inio nion— 100% of gdp. they've also got this plan about— 100% of gdp. they've also got this plan about removing the tax nnono— this plan about removing the tax inoono inon — this plan about removing the tax breaks from private schools. inon-no— breaks from private schools. they're talking— breaks from private schools. they're talking about an all nnono— they're talking about an all grieve inquiry,— they're talking about an all grieve inquiry, which i wouldn't inogino— grieve inquiry, which i wouldn't inogino io— grieve inquiry, which i wouldn't inogino io oi— grieve inquiry, which i wouldn't imagine is at the— grieve inquiry, which i wouldn't imagine is at the top of many noonio-o— imagine is at the top of many noonio-o io— imagine is at the top of many noonio-o io oo— imagine is at the top of many people's to do list, even if inon— people's to do list, even if inon ono— people's to do list, even if they are labour- people's to do list, even if they are labour voters . have they are labour voters. have inon— they are labour voters. have inon-ino— they are labour voters. have onoo-ino ngni- they are labour voters. have they the right policies? they got the right policies? nnoi— they got the right policies?- what—starmer what would you advise starmer to do what would you advise starmer to no oiiiononiin— what would you advise starmer to do differently ? _ what would you advise starmer to do differently ? inn?“ : do differently? well, i would advise him to do what we did, which was to be very cautious on the economic front . the economic front. traditionally, the public are very suspicious of the labour party on economic policy because historically we didn't do very well with it. if you remember well with it. so if you remember what in 97 was we stuck what we did in 97 was we stuck to ken clarke's spending plans for the first two years. it was a problem for us because a big problem for us because it gave room put more gave us no room to put more money into the public services. but sure it was the right but i'm sure it was the right thing because reassured thing to do because it reassured people safe people that we were safe economically. was economically. so if i was advising which advising keir starmer, which i'm not, him that not, i would tell him that he should that should focus on showing that economic stability. and i think if his shadow chancellor has got

someone really does inspire someone who really does inspire someone who really does inspire some , his number one some confidence, his number one task do that. second task is to do that. the second thing would to do thing i would advise him to do is have too much detail is not to have too much detail on expect on policy. people don't expect much don't pay much detail. they don't pay a lot attention to detail much detail. they don't pay a lotpolicyention to detail much detail. they don't pay a lotpolicy .ntion to detail much detail. they don't pay a lotpolicy . what to detail much detail. they don't pay a lotpolicy . what they'reietail of policy. what they're interested is the general of policy. what they're intererofd is the general of policy. what they're intererof where the general of policy. what they're intererof where you're neral of policy. what they're intererof where you're going. sense of where you're going. what's this guy like? what's he going having going to do? and having that sort , i think is the sort of vision, i think is the key that to set key thing that he needs to set out. is he also right this week to out. is he also right this week io-ionnoning- out. is he also right this week to-tampering with- to rule out tampering with the top to rule out tampering with the top_i_ to rule out tampering with the ion—i noon- to rule out tampering with the top—i mean, it's. top rate of tax? i mean, it's gnio— top rate of tax? i mean, it's gnio-ion— top rate of tax? i mean, it's quite-for-deputy,l quite hard for his deputy, nngoio— quite hard for his deputy, angela rayner, to keep banging on oooni— angela rayner, to keep banging on ooono-ion— angela rayner, to keep banging on about-topllf- on about the top 1. if keir sionnon— on about the top 1. if keir starmer-going- on about the top 1. if keir starmer going to do starmer isn't going to do onnining— starmer isn't going to do anything about it. i mean, i nnon— anything about it. i mean, i know -talked- know they've talked about ninoioii— know they've talked about windfall-and - know they've talked about windfall and they seem to windfall taxes and they seem to nono— windfall taxes and they seem to none ononi— windfall taxes and they seem to have spent that— windfall taxes and they seem to have spent that money several iinoo— have spent that money several iinoo onon— have spent that money several times oven-about- have spent that money several times over, about the times over, but what about the top-tax?— times over, but what about the ion-iooo non,- times over, but what about the top-tax? well, i- times over, but what about the top tax? well, i don't top rate of tax? well, i don't nooiin— top rate of tax? well, i don't nooiin noni— top rate of tax? well, i don't really want to _ top rate of tax? well, i don't really want to get into the onion— really want to get into the ooioii oi— really want to get into the detail of policy, not least iooonoo— detail of policy, not least because i'm— detail of policy, not least because i'm not really competent to because i'm not really competent io—ini— because i'm not really competent io—ini onniningl to talk about it. but anything that people that that helps reassure people that economically is not economically labour party is not going to be revolutionary, i think sensible. if want a think is sensible. if you want a jeremy style series of jeremy corbyn style series of policies go into election , we policies to go into election, we know so i think know what happens. so i think trying to do what did in 97in trying to do what we did in 97in terms safe and being terms of being safe and being stable and sticking that

stable and then sticking to that in which what we in government, which is what we did, a lot in labour did, will help a lot in labour winning a decent victory winning a decent size victory which will allow it to have more than problem than one term. the problem with labour governments historically is come and get is they come in and they get chucked after term or chucked out after one term or one half terms. so if keir one and a half terms. so if keir starmer bring about starmer wants to bring about a real he needs mandate real change, he needs a mandate not for term but for not just for one term but for a couple terms . the not just for one term but for a couple terms. the other couple of terms. the other nnoiion — couple of terms. the other problem -labour| couple of terms. the other. problem -labour is problem isn't it for labour is no— problem isn't it for labour is no ii— problem isn't it for labour is no ii men— problem isn't it for labour is that if they do— problem isn't it for labour is that if they do take power in 2024,— that if they do take power in ooon, onoo-no— that if they do take power in 2024, they've got a very oiiiionii— 2024, they've got a very difficult in—tray to deal with ono— difficult in—tray to deal with on oo— difficult in—tray to deal with on oo non— difficult in—tray to deal with on oo non oon— difficult in—tray to deal with and as you say, they might not be and as you say, they might not in given— and as you say, they might not no ginon inoi— and as you say, they might not be given that time. how do they nonnio— be given that time. how do they nonoio inoio— be given that time. how do they handle that?-do_ be given that time. how do they handle that? do they handle handle that? how do they handle inoin—oo— handle that? how do they handle their_ as well?- handle that? how do they handle their_ as well? it- their inheritance as well? it niii— their inheritance as well? it niii io— their inheritance as well? it niii in non— their inheritance as well? it will be very difficult. �*fn�*“:?“ their inheritance as well? it will be very difficult. in?“ will be very difficult. when we came in, actually, it turned out in 1997, the economy was back growing again . in 1997, the economy was back growing again. in in 1997, the economy was back growing again . in fact, if you growing again. in fact, if you remember, bill clinton won with it's the economy, stupid . turns it's the economy, stupid. turns out that under george bush, the economy growing we economy was growing as well. we found when the figures economy was growing as well. we foun(revised. when the figures economy was growing as well. we foun(revised. so vhen the figures economy was growing as well. we foun(revised. so wen the figures economy was growing as well. we foun(revised. so we hadt figures economy was growing as well. we foun(revised. so we had a igures were revised. so we had a relatively benign inheritance in terms of the economy , this is terms of the economy, this is going to be much more difficult because this government has trashed economy in a really trashed the economy in a really serious way. plus, the international impact that that's

affecting all of us. and so any incoming government is going to have to be very cautious economically, have to economically, going to have to reassure people going to reassure people and going to have and there won't have to rebuild. and there won't be much scope for adventurous policies. don't think. final policies. i don't think. final question. was it an?“ e final question. was interested to question. i was interested to nooo— question. i was interested to nooi onio— question. i was interested to read this week,— question. i was interested to read this week, keir starmer on nono— read this week, keir starmer on one hand, having— read this week, keir starmer on one hand, having talked about oioiioning— one hand, having talked about abolishing the— one hand, having talked about abolishing the house of lords, noo-niniing— abolishing the house of lords, was-hinting at- abolishing the house of lords, was hinting at perhaps was then hinting at perhaps onoiiing— was then hinting at perhaps onoiiing-ionn- was then hinting at perhaps enabling tony blair and enabling both tony blair and oonoon— enabling both tony blair and gordon brown— enabling both tony blair and gordon brown .— enabling both tony blair and gordon brown . should he do that, gordon brown. should he do that, and gordon brown. should he do that, on nonio— gordon brown. should he do that, on nonio inon— gordon brown. should he do that, and would they accept it, do you ininn— and would they accept it, do you ininn o — and would they accept it, do you ininn o ino— and would they accept it, do you think ? i've no— and would they accept it, do you think ? i've no idea— and would they accept it, do you think ? i've no idea if- and would they accept it, do you think ? : �*" i: think? i've no idea if they'd accept , but i would point out accept, but i would point out that tony blair did not have a dissolution honours list. he did not people the house of not put people in the house of lords memory of the lords. the memory of the lavender from harold lavender list from harold wilson's still very wilson's days is still very prevalent. boris prevalent. what boris johnson did, pretty , pretty did, frankly, is pretty, pretty scandalous, honest . and so scandalous, to be honest. and so i less of that would be i think less of that would be better. i think as far as i could tell from the newspapers what they were talking about is if government in if they come into government in the lords frustrates the house of lords frustrates them tory them because so many tory peers have liberals have been made, so many liberals and by they wanted and others by then they wanted to numbers. to have the numbers. i personally be favour of personally would be in favour of abolishing of lords, abolishing the house of lords, not having two

not reforming it. having two different mandates is a really serious problem for our democracy. but serious problem for our democracy . but principle, democracy. but in principle, iono— democracy. but in principle, iono iioin— democracy. but in principle, lord blair, is— democracy. but in principle, lord blair, is that— :,, but in principle, lord blair, is that something no— lord blair, is that something no onnooio— lord blair, is that something that appeals doesn't appeal to ino— that appeals doesn't appeal to me. i've no idea— that appeals doesn't appeal to me. i've no idea if- that appeals doesn't appeal to me. i've no idea if it- that appeals doesn't appeal to me. : �*" e : me. i've no idea if it would appeal to him. okay. jonathan ionon— appeal to him. okay. jonathan ionoii in— appeal to him. okay. jonathan powell i'm really— “ okay. jonathan powell i'm really grateful for non— powell i'm really grateful for non iino— powell i'm really grateful for your time this— powell i'm really grateful for your time this morning. lovely to your time this morning. lovely io onoon— your time this morning. lovely io onooklnon— your time this morning. lovely to speak-you.-you.. your time this morning. lovely to speak you. you. now, to speak to you. thank you. now, as to speak to you. thank you. now, oo bina— to speak to you. thank you. now, oo nnga, in— to speak to you. thank you. now, as billed, i'm joined— to speak to you. thank you. now, as billed, i'm joined in the oinoio— as billed, i'm joined in the oinoio non— as billed, i'm joined in the studio now by— as billed, i'm joined in the studio now by kwasi kwarteng, ionon— studio now by kwasi kwarteng, ionnon—oi- studio now by kwasi kwarteng, former—of the- former chancellor of the ioonognon— former chancellor of the exchequer under liz truss. let's put exchequer under liz truss. let's nni inoi— exchequer under liz truss. let's nni inoi io— exchequer under liz truss. let's put that to-now_ exchequer under liz truss. let's put that to now because put that to you now because ionoinon— put that to you now because jonathan powell— put that to you now because jonathan powell is talking about oonoonnoiinoo— jonathan powell is talking about conservatives having trashed the ooononn— conservatives having trashed the ooononnn. in— conservatives having trashed the economy. i'm going to go for non— economy. i'm going to go for nonningnion— economy. i'm going to go for yourjugular, but— economy. i'm going to go for yourjugular, but i'm going to say— yourjugular, but i'm going to oon-ino— yourjugular, but i'm going to say-the viewers- yourjugular, but i'm going to say the viewers and say because the viewers and iioionono— say because the viewers and listeners thinking listeners might be thinking this is listeners might be thinking this io—onl is everything that's going on non— is everything that's going on with inflation— is everything that's going on with inflation and interest noioo—noi with inflation and interest- rates_liz truss rates your fault? and. liz truss go,— rates your fault? and. liz truss no—oo— rates your fault? and. liz truss no—oo oi- rates your fault? and. liz truss no—oo oi on. i no, i don't think so at all. i ii— no, i don't think so at all. i mean, if-look-andl no, i don't think so at all. i. mean, if-look-and you mean, if you look back and you mentioned this yourself at the end 2021, which end of november 2021, which wasn't years ago, it wasn't a million years ago, it wasn't a million years ago, it was only 18 months ago , the was only 18 months ago, the interest the rate was at interest of the bank rate was at 0.1. and what happened was that we had a public spending we had a huge public spending because of covid as rishi sunak observed. i remember talking to him when he was chancellor inflation was a problem and i'm afraid i'm one of those who thinks the bank was a bit slow

in reacting to it. and in fact, andrew bailey himself acknowledged, said that, you know, and his his colleagues know, he and his his colleagues had made a mistake in terms of their forecasts had made a mistake in terms of theirforecasts. so had made a mistake in terms of their forecasts . so let's talk their forecasts. so let's talk oooni— their forecasts. so let's talk about andrew— their forecasts. so let's talk about andrew bailey,- ” , so let's talk about andrew bailey, because ooongo— about andrew bailey, because george osborne— about andrew bailey, because george osborne has claimed that she george osborne has claimed that one nnoo— george osborne has claimed that she truss dismissed the economic establishment— she truss dismissed the economic establishment .— she truss dismissed the economic establishment . she— she truss dismissed the economic establishment . she fired the establishment. she fired the nonnononi— establishment. she fired the permanent secretary at the inooonnn — permanent secretary at the inooonnn sno— permanent secretary at the treasury. she went around ioiiing— treasury. she went around telling everyone , as did her telling everyone, as did her chancellor,— telling everyone, as did her chancellor, that's you, i ioiiono— chancellor, that's you, i ioiiono .— chancellor, that's you, i believe , kwasi that the bank of believe, kwasi that the bank of ingiono— believe, kwasi that the bank of ingiono-noo- believe, kwasi that the bank of ingiono-noo .- believe, kwasi that the bank of england was , quote, england governor was, quote, useless-never- england governor was, quote, useless. never said useless. no, i never said onnining— useless. no, i never said anything about. jiiti anything about. do you think too— anything about. do you think he's useless ? no, i don't. do he's useless? no, i don't. do you think he's a a7 nizi an?“ e do you think he's a treasury oioogoo — you think he's a treasury oioogoo i— you think he's a treasury stooge? i think- you think he's a treasury stooge? you think he's a treasury- stooge? i think he essentially represents orthodoxy that represents the orthodoxy that liz truss was against. yeah and i think there's still an issue with the problems we were trying to solve i'm very to solve. i mean, i'm very struck by fact that nobody struck by the fact that nobody is we're is talking about growth. we're always firefighting, we're always firefighting, we're always about obviously always talking about obviously having to deal with inflation. we've interest we've got to put up interest rates that. the whole rates to do that. the whole growth agenda has been sidelined . way officials are . and the only way officials are pushing for recession, no , i pushing for recession, no, i don't think they are as such . i don't think they are as such. i think there'll be 1 or 2 people

who probably think actually a recession would be quite a good idea because then we idea because because then we would deal with inflation. i'm not an economist. i'm a journalist. and- ?“ , i'm a journalist. and therefore my mathematics— journalist. and therefore my mathematics is— journalist. and therefore my mathematics is poor. as can mathematics is poor. as you can inogino— imagine, kwasi. but at the same nno,— imagine, kwasi. but at the same nno-iooo— imagine, kwasi. but at the same nno-iooo oi— imagine, kwasi. but at the same time,-idea of a— imagine, kwasi. but at the same time, idea of a recession time, the idea of a recession ioing— time, the idea of a recession being preferable— time, the idea of a recession being preferable still strikes me as economic— being preferable still strikes me as economic lunacy. what do you— me as economic lunacy. what do you innno— me as economic lunacy. what do you ininno ii-o— me as economic lunacy. what do you think? it's mad— me as economic lunacy. what do you think? it's mad. me as economic lunacy. what do you think? it's mad . you think? it's mad. but let me be you think? it's mad. but let me to non— you think? it's mad. but let me be very clear. i don't think that's the corporate view , do that's the corporate view, do i just think there are 1 or 2 of you here whispering jeremy hunt seems slightly hinting at seems to be slightly hinting at it. i don't know what jeremy meant his remarks, but meant by his remarks, but i think you know openly to will a recession when you're responsible for an economy is not responsible. can you give us a not responsible. can you give us o gnooion— not responsible. can you give us a greater impression— not responsible. can you give us a greater impression of- can you give us a greater impression of what it ino— a greater impression of what it was like when— a greater impression of what it was like when you were trying to noon— was like when you were trying to noon oo— was like when you were trying to push some .these_ was like when you were trying to push some these more radical push some of these more radical noiioioo— push some of these more radical noiioioo 7— push some of these more radical policies ?-we've- push some of these more radical policies ? we've heard jake policies? sure. we've heard jake ionnn— policies? sure. we've heard jake berry ooniion— policies? sure. we've heard jake berry earlier talking about blob niob— berry earlier talking about blob iioi noio— berry earlier talking about blob blob nomics. yes.— berry earlier talking about blob blob nomics. yes. so your chancellor— blob nomics. yes. so your chancellor you're saying we want to chancellor you're saying we want io oo— chancellor you're saying we want to do something— chancellor you're saying we want to do something really radical. we to do something really radical. no noni— to do something really radical. no nonilgo— to do something really radical. we want go against the grain. we want to go against the grain. we want to go against the grain. no-noinnn— we want to go against the grain. we-return-period. we want to return to a period of inoiononiio— we want to return to a period of thatcherite economics. in?“ thatcherite economics. well, inoi— thatcherite economics. well, inoiono— thatcherite economics. well, inoioonioi— thatcherite economics. well, that sort of thing. yeah. what's the explain what the the just please explain what the push is like. i think

push back is like. i think you're dealing with institutions , thousands you're dealing with institutions , people thousands you're dealing with institutions , people . thousands you're dealing with institutions , people . they've thousands you're dealing with institutions , people . they've been ousands you're dealing with institutions , people . they've been setands you're dealing with institutions , people . they've been set injs of people. they've been set in their many of them were their ways. many of them were appointed the labour appointed in the new labour time. continuity time. so the sort of continuity new labour, if you like. okay, so what you're saying there are lefties in the treasury? well, no there are people who no lefties. there are people who believe they're believe that, you know, they're not as averse to high taxes as i as i not as averse to high taxes as i asi and not as averse to high taxes as i as i and liz truss were. and you're dealing with these institutions and you've got to work . ultimately, we learnt the work. ultimately, we learnt the hard way that you've got to learn, work with them and i think that the actual whole goal that we want, we set out a low tax dynamic economy is something that we should still be working for. but that we should still be working for . but were that we should still be working for. but were you that we should still be working for . but were you withholding for. but were you withholding inionnoiion— for. but were you withholding information from _ but were you withholding information from them or were onon— information from them or were they withholding— information from them or were they withholding information inon— they withholding information from _obviously| they withholding information. from _obviously you from you because obviously you noon-io— from you because obviously you nonon-io noi- were criticised for not inoinoing— were criticised for not including-for were criticised for not- including-for and including the obr for and oooning— including the obr for and sacking tom _ including the obr for and sacking tom scholar and for nonio— sacking tom scholar and for nonio keeping— sacking tom scholar and for maybe keeping some of your noiioioo— maybe keeping some of your policies under— maybe keeping some of your policies under wraps because i gnooo— policies under wraps because i gnooo non— policies under wraps because i guess you didn't— policies under wraps because i guess you didn't want them to be innooioioin— guess you didn't want them to be immediately turned band upon. but immediately turned band upon. ioi oi— immediately turned band upon. ioi oi ino— immediately turned band upon. but at the same— immediately turned band upon. but at the same time , i've kind but at the same time, i've kind of but at the same time, i've kind oi goi— but at the same time, i've kind oi goi ino— but at the same time, i've kind of got the impression over the course of recent— of got the impression over the course of recent months that liz nnoo— course of recent months that liz innoo ininno— course of recent months that liz truss thinks - stuff - course of recent months that liz truss thinks stuff wasn't

truss thinks that stuff wasn't explained — truss thinks that stuff wasn't explained .her. _ truss thinks that stuff wasn't explained her. for instance, explained to her. for instance, oooni— explained to her. for instance, ooono-io— explained to her. for instance, oioni-io ino— explained to her. for instance, about-is the ldi- explained to her. for instance, about is the ldi thing was about ldi is the ldi thing was woo—oooni- about ldi is the ldi thing was was—about and- about ldi is the ldi thing was was about and that was not known about and that onn— was not known about and that onin iooono— was not known about and that onin iooono o— was not known about and that only became a problem when it woo—so— only became a problem when it woo—solnoo- only became a problem when it was—solwas notl was a problem. so it was not something that identified in something that was identified in my about the my own view about the mini—budget was mini—budget looking back, was that were at a that things that were at a blistering pace. i mean, liz truss was only appointed on the 6th of september there and i delivered the mini—budget on the 23rd of september. and in the meantime tragic event meantime we had the tragic event of the passing of her late majesty and the funeral and all the rest of it. so two and a half weeks where things were going very, very fast indeed. and actually, my own view has always been that you've got to try things down to try and slow things down to make sure you you prepare the sure that you you prepare the pitch. that was the although you did the doubling down, didn't you? i i did. do you? i did. sunday. i did. do you—now?- you? i did. sunday. i did. do you—now? no. ii you? i did. sunday. i did. do- you_now? no. i think you regret that now? no. i think my you regret that now? no. i think no nonoo— you regret that now? no. i think my nonio nono— you regret that now? no. i think my words were slightly misinterpreted. when say that. misinterpreted. when i say that. just what were just to explain what were viewers and listeners you were ooni— viewers and listeners you were ooni-nonio— viewers and listeners you were ooni-nonio-go- sort of told, would you go innnon—onoi sort of told, would you go. further_ and you further with tax cuts and you ooio— further with tax cuts and you said eventually,— further with tax cuts and you said eventually, the said eventually, yeah, but the nonnoio— said eventually, yeah, but the nonnoio ono— said eventually, yeah, but the markets are spooked. but the but the that that the issue before that was that we'd would have a we'd said that we would have a spending , we would have spending, we would have a statement i'd said statement on spending. i'd said

in the on the in the statement on the on the friday that there was going to be a further statement looking at spending trying at the spending side and trying to show spending restraint. now, my view is that in my own view is that in retrospect , we should have done retrospect, we should have done them together in a normal , retrospect, we should have done them together in a normal, you know, classic budget . we know, a classic budget. we should had the spending should have had the spending restored paint as jeremy hunt announced at the end of last yeah announced at the end of last year, as well as the tax cuts together to show that the tax cuts weren't entirely unfunded. that was my view. okay that is my view now. i mean, what do you think of things like furlough and the energy bailout? i ask because whenever the - because whenever the conservatives give people money, inon—ion- conservatives give people money, inon—ion ii.- they never get thanked for it. no.— they never get thanked for it. no. you— they never get thanked for it. no. you nnon— they never get thanked for it. no. you know, you've still got ino— no. you know, you've still got. ino—ono the left going on about cuts and onoioniin— the left going on about cuts and austerity—actually. austerity when you've actually ononi. —nnoni spent. that's right. too much onon— spent. that's right. too much nnonon inoio— spent. that's right. too much money. that's why you're in this mess. were some— money. that's why you're in this mess. were some of these noiioioo— mess. were some of these policies mistake in policies a mistake in retrospect,- policies a mistake in retrospect, spending too much on inniongno— retrospect, spending too much on inniongno ioi-o— retrospect, spending too much on furlough? let's now— retrospect, spending too much on furlough? let's now talk of nongogo— furlough? let's now talk of mortgage bailouts. i mean, that nonio— mortgage bailouts. i mean, that nonio io— mortgage bailouts. i mean, that would be having— mortgage bailouts. i mean, that would be having renters bailing out would be having renters bailing oni ino— would be having renters bailing out the haves,— would be having renters bailing out the haves, the— would be having renters bailing out the haves, the people who ooinoiin— out the haves, the people who ooinoiin-nnononin- out the haves, the people who actually property . that's actually own property. that's nigni. — actually own property. that's ngni-ononn- actually own property. that's right. -every turn- actually own property. that's right. every turn are right. why at every turn are noonio— people talking about bailouts? i

people talking about bailouts? i-oovin. — people talking about bailouts? i-oovin. nno— people talking about bailouts? i-covid. and we've- people talking about bailouts? i-covid. and we've got. people talking about bailouts? i think covid. and we've got to remember what happened with covid completely changed people's perception of what the government could do. and think government could do. and i think going into the covid, we were spending a lot less money. we were a much more nimble economy , were a much more nimble economy i , were a much more nimble economy , i would say. and then as a consequence of covid, we spent hundreds of billions. think it hundreds of billions. i think it was something like £400 billion. in retrospect, it was too much. noii— in retrospect, it was too much. welt-easy— in retrospect, it was too much. not iooon io — in retrospect, it was too much. well,-easy to say- in retrospect, it was too much. well, .easy to say with- well, it's easy to say with hindsight. i know, but. but actually, the time we were actually, at the time we were being criticised again for not not doing enough. and i think the treasury , the chancellor at the treasury, the chancellor at the treasury, the chancellor at the the prime the time, rishi, now the prime minister actually did respond very quickly , i think and i have very quickly, i think and i have to say this, rishi was very right about the inflation. i remember him talking to that about me when i business about me when i was business secretary look, secretary and he said, look, inflation problem inflation is a big problem for the bank. think has been the bank. i think has been slightly to that slightly less alive to that problem. are we now a poor oonninn— are we now a poor country masquerading as a rich ono— country masquerading as a rich i— country masquerading as a rich i noon— country masquerading as a rich i ii— country masquerading as a rich one? i mean, it feels like we nno— one? i mean, it feels like we nino oi— one? i mean, it feels like we are kind of like— one? i mean, it feels like we are kind of like the inflation noooi— are kind of like the inflation noooi oi— are kind of like the inflation beast of the— are kind of like the inflation beast of the west. our inflation noio— beast of the west. our inflation noio io— beast of the west. our inflation noio io nign— beast of the west. our inflation rate is high. the— beast of the west. our inflation rate is high. the americans got a rate is high. the americans got o nonnio— rate is high. the americans got o nonoio on— rate is high. the americans got a handle on it— rate is high. the americans got

a handle on it much earlier and ooni oi— a handle on it much earlier and we're sort of heavily indebted. nono— we're sort of heavily indebted. nno-no goi— we're sort of heavily indebted. nno-no goi o— we're sort of heavily indebted. we've got a kind— we're sort of heavily indebted. we've got a kind of population ininning— we've got a kind of population ininning inoi— we've got a kind of population thinking that they deserve pay nooo— thinking that they deserve pay ion— thinking that they deserve pay rises for working— thinking that they deserve pay rises for working at home more ono— rises for working at home more on inoi— rises for working at home more on no onon— rises for working at home more and that they need to be bailed out and that they need to be bailed oni oi— and that they need to be bailed oni oi inoi— and that they need to be bailed out of their mortgage bills. we oon-i— out of their mortgage bills. we oon-i oiiono— out of their mortgage bills. we can't afford to— out of their mortgage bills. we can't afford to do— out of their mortgage bills. we can't afford to do any of this oinii. — can't afford to do any of this oinii. no.— can't afford to do any of this stuff. no, it's— can't afford to do any of this stuff. no, it's not- can't afford to do any of this stuff. \ni:?i g stuff. no, it's not sustainable. i think . and i think we're going i think. and i think we're going to have to talk about growth. we're going to have to talk about the economy. i about growing the economy. and i hate sort on about hate to sort of bang on about this, only way we're this, but the only way we're going to actually have good pubuc is going to actually have good public is if we can public services is if we can afford to pay for them. and the only way we can afford to pay for those is by growing the economy so that more tax economy so that we get more tax receipts from a buoyant economy. has jeremy hunt got a point? and sunak in the and indeed, rishi sunak in the noon— and indeed, rishi sunak in the weeklsavin9_ and indeed, rishi sunak in the week-saying the— and indeed, rishi sunak in the week saying the best cut week in saying the best tax cut week in saying the best tax cut no gino— week in saying the best tax cut we can give the— week in saying the best tax cut we can give the public is a fall in iniioiion— we can give the public is a fall in inflation.ii_ we can give the public is a fall in inflation.ii think- we can give the public is a fall in inflation. ”i? in inflation. i think they're right to focus on inflation because you've got to remember that the inflation target is 2. that's 2. so and now as jake said, it's 8.7% going to deliver on this deliverable by the end of well, let's see, let's see. 5. — of well, let's see, let's see. 5. do you think it's challenging

? it's challenging. i think he can. think got i can. i think we've got really i think can. think these in think he can. i think these in america inflation fell very quickly. what's your prediction as quickly. what's your prediction oo io— quickly. what's your prediction oo io-niii— quickly. what's your prediction as to-will happen- i: nan/lg what's your prediction as to will happen with as to what will happen with inionooi— as to what will happen with interest rates?— as to what will happen with interest rates? i— as to what will happen with interest rates? i mean, they're non-inono-o— interest rates? i mean, they're now-there's talk- interest rates? i mean, they're now there's talk of six. now at 5. there's talk of six. non— now at 5. there's talk of six. non iong— now at 5. there's talk of six. how long for? _ now at 5. there's talk of six. how long for? int?“ how long for? well, the market is expecting six. i mean, that's well that's there now. well known that's out there now. but as i say, it's all to do with the inflation rate. if the inflation rate falls more quickly than than people inflation rate falls more quickly iian than people inflation rate falls more quickly i don't than people inflation rate falls more quickly i don't think people inflation rate falls more quickly i don't think you're expect. i don't think you're going to see massively increased interest rates. but is there this sense that they were ultra low far too long and low for far too long and actually the status quo should be have an interest rate be to have an interest rate around 3 to 4? we're all lulled inio— around 3 to 4? we're all lulled inio inio— around 3 to 4? we're all lulled into this false— around 3 to 4? we're all lulled into this false sense— around 3 to 4? we're all lulled into this false sense of- into this false sense of ooonniin— into this false sense of ooonniin .— into this false sense of security . that debt cheap and security. that debt is cheap and inonoiono— security. that debt is cheap and inonoiono ii— security. that debt is cheap and therefore it lasts— security. that debt is cheap and therefore it lasts forever. noon— therefore it lasts forever. yeah, -doubtl therefore it lasts forever. . yeah, -doubt that therefore it lasts forever. - yeah,-doubt that we yeah, there's no doubt that we noo— yeah, there's no doubt that we noolnonioo— yeah, there's no doubt that we hadlperiod where— yeah, there's no doubt that we had period where we had had a period where we had exceptionally— had a period where we had exceptionally rates. had a period where we had- exceptionally-rates. imean, exceptionally low rates. i mean, i exceptionally low rates. i mean, i—oi— exceptionally low rates. i mean, i—oi ino— exceptionally low rates. i mean, i—oi ino ono- exceptionally low rates. i mean, i-at the end of- exceptionally low rates. i mean, i at the end of 2021, i remember at the end of 2021, i was business secretary. the interest was 0.1% and it interest rate was 0.1% and it was only moved in november 0.1. so it's 50 times higher the interest rate than it was in october 2021. and that's not very long ago. so they were they were very, very low rates . and

were very, very low rates. and just to recap on the history, obviously we had the 2008 crash, the financial crisis, they went very low. then and then, of course, after covid, the economy was essentially in lockdown and we needed to have a period of essentially cheap money to get things going again. but the bank of things going again. but the bank oi ingiono— things going again. but the bank of england printed— things going again. but the bank of england printed too— gt? gt?» “g 3�*9?�* “ but the bank of england printed too much onon— of england printed too much money, quantitative easing was too—whatl too high. that's clearly what is very likely happened. very likely to have happened. the that we were printing the fact that we were printing money spending it as money and spending it as well led this increased inflation led to this increased inflation and as a consequence of the increased inflation, we're essentially playing catch up with the with the interest rates. what was your reaction to mark carney blaming brexit? i thought that was slightly nnono— thought that was slightly iizonno . — thought that was slightly iizonno . i— thought that was slightly bizarre . “ g thought that was slightly bizarre . “ e thought that was slightly- bizarre . i mean, it's well known bizarre. i mean, it's well known that mark has always been against. yes brexit. but to blame brexit for everything that's gone wrong i think is completely unrealistic. in fact , as someone who supported brexit, i look at the vaccine rollout , i look at a lot of the rollout, i look at a lot of the stuff we're doing in foreign affairs and the fact that we're out has already shown that we

have an independence. i know, but you, like me,— have an independence. i know, but you, like me, shared- iknow, but you, like me, shared this ooni— but you, like me, shared this oonilonoon— but you, like me, shared this sort-dream of— but you, like me, shared this sort-dream of a- but you, like me, shared this sort dream of a low sort of dream of a low corporation— sort of dream of a low corporation tax rate to be more oonnoiiiino— corporation tax rate to be more competitive with _ corporation tax rate to be more competitive with the of competitive with the likes of nonoo—sno- competitive with the likes of france—sure ii competitive with the likes of- france_sure i mean, france and germany. sure i mean, i france and germany. sure i mean, i oon-i— france and germany. sure i mean, i oon-i nnon— france and germany. sure i mean, i oon-i know i— france and germany. sure i mean, i don't know if we— france and germany. sure i mean, i don't know if we have a low singonono— i don't know if we have a low singonono on— i don't know if we have a low singapore on from singapore on sea from a deregulation— singapore on sea from a deregulation standpoint , but deregulation standpoint, but inio—nono- deregulation standpoint, but inio—nono no| deregulation standpoint, but- this_make us much this was meant to make us much onnonio— this was meant to make us much more dynamic and— this was meant to make us much more dynamic and forward facing and more dynamic and forward facing on o— more dynamic and forward facing on o nonio— more dynamic and forward facing and a world leader— more dynamic and forward facing and a world leader in global inoio— and a world leader in global nooo, nono— and a world leader in global trade, none of— and a world leader in global trade, none of that's materialised. it's a failure ionn— materialised. it's a failure tory government, isn't it? noii— tory government, isn't it? not you— tory government, isn't it? well, you know,— tory government, isn't it? well, you know, we- tory government, isn't it? well, you know, we tried it and actually i'm one of those people. been to singapore. people. i've been to singapore. it's being traduced it's always being traduced as some place where they're some evil place where they're sweatshop. singapore is a really prosperous place and if you look at 60 years ago, it was it was nothing. it was literally just a kind of malarial swamp, as it was described. us. and what they've achieved amazing . so they've achieved is amazing. so when hear people, you know, when i hear people, you know, the particularly saying how the left particularly saying how bad singapore i think bad singapore is, i just think that's great human that's one of the great human success of 20th success stories of the 20th century. so we should trying century. so we should be trying to have liked to to well, i would have liked to have seen a more dynamic. i would like to still to see would like to still like to see a dynamic economy, an a more dynamic mc economy, an economy where people are incentivised and economy where

people happy to invest in people feel happy to invest in the uk . and not to say that the uk. and not to say that there is there is still investment in the uk, but i think we could be doing even better. question because better. final question because i can government u—turn in can feel a government u—turn in my bones. this £170 green levy my bones. this £17o green levy vou— my bones. this £170 green levy non nonio— my bones. this £17o green levy you would suggested- this £170 green levy you would suggested that it ononion-i— you would suggested that it shouldn't be— you would suggested that it shouldn't be put on taxpayers energy— shouldn't be put on taxpayers onongn iniio— shouldn't be put on taxpayers energy bills because they're oinooon— energy bills because they're already suffering. we've now got the government— already suffering. we've now got the government saying that they noni— the government saying that they noni noonio— the government saying that they noni noonio io— the government saying that they want people to pay this £170 in gnoon— want people to pay this £170 in gnoon ionioo— want people to pay this £170 in gnoon ionioo .— want people to pay this £170 in green levies . what do you think green levies. what do you think onon— green levies. what do you think inon ononio— green levies. what do you think they should do?— green levies. what do you think they should do? so the view oonioinin— they should do? so the view certainly last— they should do? so the view certainly last autumn when i was oiiii— certainly last autumn when i was oiiii in— certainly last autumn when i was still in government— certainly last autumn when i was still in government was that we ononio— still in government was that we should.should_ still in government was that we should . should be _ still in government was that we should should be absorbed should it should be absorbed in the should it should be absorbed in oio—ii— should it should be absorbed in the—it shouldn't- the general tax, it shouldn't be put the general tax, it shouldn't be nni onooiiiooiin— the general tax, it shouldn't be put specifically on, on, on bill nonono— put specifically on, on, on bill payers because _ put specifically on, on, on bill payers because the bills already nonn— payers because the bills already non nign— payers because the bills already were very high. so— payers because the bills already were very high. so should they u—innn— were very high. so should they u—innn on— were very high. so should they u—turn on this— were very high. so should they u—turn on this ,_ were very high. so should they u—turn on this , it's the wrong. u—turn on this, it's the wrong. noii— u—turn on this, it's the wrong. noii i— u—turn on this, it's the wrong. noii i oon-i— u—turn on this, it's the wrong. well i don't know— u—turn on this, it's the wrong. well i don't know what- u—turn on this, it's the wrong. well i don't know what i- u—turn on this, it's the wrong. well i don't know what i mean. they're saying put it on bills ono— they're saying put it on bills on noonio— they're saying put it on bills and people saying, my and people are saying, well my iniio— and people are saying, well my inio—onn— and people are saying, well my inio—on nign- bills are already sky high and now i can't pay my mortgage. inono-o— now i can't pay my mortgage. inono-o ioon— now i can't pay my mortgage. there's been a— now i can't pay my mortgage. there's been a bit— now i can't pay my mortgage. there's been a bit of- now i can't pay my mortgage. there's been a bit of mixed messaging, but i mean, i understand where coming understand where it's coming from because as energy minister, i trying to i was very focussed on trying to get green get new technologies. green technologies up and running. so i the need to i understand the need to subsidise new technologies, but

at the same time at this moment, particularly last autumn when energy bills were very high, i think it was a bit too much to expect people to pay an extra £170. do you reckon if liz truss has stayed the course we'd be in a better situation economically now look, i think there are challenges. there are always challenges. there are always challenges in government and you know, was very disappointed know, i was very disappointed obviously to be dismissed . i obviously to be dismissed. i thought when i was dismissed i thought when i was dismissed i thought that was the end. i thought, know, didn't thought, you know, i didn't see the it, but i think the point of it, but i think i think we'd still be facing difficult challenges. but she think we'd still be facing diffi ailt challenges. but she think we'd still be facing diffi ailt cof.lenges. but she think we'd still be facing diffi ailt cof driveis. but she think we'd still be facing diffi ailt cof drive and jt she think we'd still be facing diffi ailt cof drive and purpose had a lot of drive and purpose and i think this growth question isn't going to go away. we're going to look back in 3 or 4 years time and say , how are we years time and say, how are we going grow this economy ? and going to grow this economy? and i really i think that's a really important to and important debate to be had, and i don't of it now. i i don't hear any of it now. i just lot firefighting, just hear a lot of firefighting, a dealing with a lot of, you know, dealing with with current problems, which is understandable. kwasi, with current problems, which is understandable . kwasi, thank you understandable. kwasi, thank you nonn— understandable. kwasi, thank you non, nonn— understandable. kwasi, thank you non, non nnon— understandable. kwasi, thank you non, non nnon ion— e. :: kwasi, thank you very, very much forjoining me very, very much for joining me inio— very, very much for joining mei this—really this morning. thank you. really ionon—non- lovely to speak to you. now ioi-o— lovely to speak to you. now ioi-olioon— lovely to speak to you. now let's-back to— lovely to speak to you. now let's back to uxbridge where let's go back to uxbridge where ooinonino— catherine forster is with the noonio-o— catherine forster is with the

people's panel— catherine forster is with the people's panel .— catherine forster is with the people's panel. i'd love catherine forster is with the people's panel . i'd love know people's panel. i'd love to know nnoo— people's panel. i'd love to know nnoo-noonio— people's panel. i'd love to know what-people there- people's panel. i'd love to know what people there in what the people there in nonniogo— what the people there in. nonniogo—nn uxbridge have made of my inionniono— uxbridge have made of my interviews. hello , interviews. catherine hello, ooniiio. — interviews. catherine hello, camilla. yes,— interviews. catherine hello, camilla. “4115 "it; cc interviews. catherine hello, camilla. “in? "i? at ”i“i1?1?; camilla. yes, we're still here at the harris and hall coffee shopin at the harris and hall coffee shop in uxbridge. we're listening with great interest to what the politicians had to say . and i'm coming to you first, philip. you do have a little bit of sympathy, don't you, for the predicament that the government finds itself in? yeah, i think if finds itself in? yeah, i think ii nono— finds itself in? yeah, i think ii oii— �*" “at: “7 yeah, i think if we're all reasonable, �*" “i:3 “7 yeah, i think if we're all reasonable, we have to understand— if we're all reasonable, we have to understand that— if we're all reasonable, we have to understand that they've come in oii— to understand that they've come in oii o— to understand that they've come in oii o nonn— to understand that they've come in oii o non .— to understand that they've come in oii o non , nonn— to understand that they've come in off a very , very difficult in off a very, very difficult ion— in off a very, very difficult ion years— in off a very, very difficult few years with— in off a very, very difficult few years with the you know, the eat few years with the you know, the ooi oni— few years with the you know, the ooi oni io — few years with the you know, the ooi oni io noin— few years with the you know, the eat out to help out— few years with the you know, the eat out to help out the furlough schemes, etcetera _ eat out to help out the furlough schemes, etcetera ,_ eat out to help out the furlough schemes, etcetera , etcetera. the schemes, etcetera, etcetera. the nonoonio— schemes, etcetera, etcetera. the nonoonio .— schemes, etcetera, etcetera. the pandemic , however, pandemic, however, notwithstanding that, i think it's notwithstanding that, i think ii-o nonn— notwithstanding that, i think it's very unreasonable in order for it's very unreasonable in order ion onon— it's very unreasonable in order ion inon io— it's very unreasonable in order for them to look— it's very unreasonable in order for them to look at things like recessions as— for them to look at things like recessions as being options for inio— recessions as being options for inio onnoni— recessions as being options for this current mortgage crisis . i this current mortgage crisis. i inoi— this current mortgage crisis. i inoi ininn— this current mortgage crisis. i just think that— this current mortgage crisis. i just think that that is a oonnioio— just think that that is a complete knee jerk reaction and not complete knee jerk reaction and noi o— complete knee jerk reaction and not a solution— complete knee jerk reaction and not a solution at— complete knee jerk reaction and not a solution at all. and i

ininn— not a solution at all. and i ininn inon— not a solution at all. and i think they should be much more onnonio— think they should be much more onnonio oo— think they should be much more onnonio oo ion— think they should be much more dynamic as far as— think they should be much more dynamic as far as what kwasi was ooning— dynamic as far as what kwasi was ooning ononi— dynamic as far as what kwasi was saying about their— dynamic as far as what kwasi was saying about their policies, onon— saying about their policies, inon nooiin— saying about their policies, they really need to be more onnonio— they really need to be more dynamic with— they really need to be more dynamic with what they're oiioning— dynamic with what they're oiioning . — dynamic with what they're offering . jake- dynamic with what they're offering . dynamic with what they're offering. jake berry was suggesting the reintroducing of mortgage interest relief at source mirrors . do you mortgage interest relief at source mirrors. do you think that's a good idea and be likely to happen ? it's very difficult to happen? it's very difficult iooonoo— to happen? it's very difficult iooonoo i— to happen? it's very difficult because i don't— 7 it's very difficult because i don't think there's onnoning— because i don't think there's onnoning ino— because i don't think there's anything like a— because i don't think there's anything like a good idea at the nonnoni— anything like a good idea at the nonnoni .— anything like a good idea at the nonnoni . ii— anything like a good idea at the moment . it really— anything like a good idea at the moment . it really is just moment. it really is just firefighting— moment. it really is just firefighting at the moment. it ionno— firefighting at the moment. it ionoo io— firefighting at the moment. it tends to kick— firefighting at the moment. it tends to kick the can down the nooo.— tends to kick the can down the nooo. nnon— tends to kick the can down the nooo. nnon non— tends to kick the can down the road. when you look at those tviii?— road. when you look at those type-schemes-_ road. when you look at those type-schemes-i- road. when you look at those type schemes. i think type of schemes. but i think inoi— type of schemes. but i think no nongogo— type of schemes. but i think that mortgage lenders and their nnoonoio— that mortgage lenders and their nnoonoio oon— that mortgage lenders and their products can be— that mortgage lenders and their products can be very dynamic and i products can be very dynamic and i nooiin— products can be very dynamic and i nooiin ininn— products can be very dynamic and i really think that— products can be very dynamic and i really think that it— products can be very dynamic and i really think that it could be a i really think that it could be oiino— i really think that it could be a time where— i really think that it could be a time where we— i really think that it could be a time where we need to look at the a time where we need to look at one ooinoi— a time where we need to look at the actual equity— a time where we need to look at the actual equity within nnononioo— the actual equity within properties and have some sort of ogoin— properties and have some sort of ogniin noooooi— properties and have some sort of equity release offset against the equity release offset against one ooinoi— equity release offset against the actual mortgage rate that noonio— the actual mortgage rate that noonio ono— the actual mortgage rate that people are paying. no easy answers, as you— people are paying. no easy answers, as you say, very , very answers, as you say, very, very oiiiionii— answers, as you say, very, very difficult indeed. _ answers, as you say, very, very difficult indeed. '1“i: difficult indeed. and john, camilla, put your question very directly to john glenn about do

they understand ? do you think they understand? do you think that they do i'm sorry , angry. that they do i'm sorry, angry. i just can't believe that he oni— i just can't believe that he came out with— i just can't believe that he came out with that. the bank of ingiono— came out with that. the bank of ingiono nnio— came out with that. the bank of ingiono nnoo nn— came out with that. the bank of england puts up the interest noooi— england puts up the interest noioo-go— england puts up the interest rates.-go-speak. england puts up the interest rates. go speak to england puts up the interest. rates. -go .speak to the rates. they go and speak to the ionno— rates. they go and speak to the nonno ono— rates. they go and speak to the banks and they— rates. they go and speak to the banks and they offer three iningo— banks and they offer three things—alreadyl banks and they offer three. things-already got. things that we've already got. nono—- things that we've already got. we've-, interest. we've got interest, interest onio— we've got interest, interest onin nonigogo— we've got interest, interest only, mortgage, mortgage , which only, mortgage, mortgage, which oinooon— only, mortgage, mortgage, which we've already got.- only, mortgage, mortgage, which we've already got. we've already got we've already got. we've already goi ino— we've already got. we've already goi ino oio— we've already got. we've already got the six month- we've already got. we've already got the six month holiday period . no— got the six month holiday period . no noo— got the six month holiday period . no noo inoi— got the six month holiday period . we had that during covid. inoio— . we had that during covid. that's generally- . we had that during covid. that's generally available onnnon— that's generally available onnon-ino- that's generally available anyway. the thing that's generally available- anyway. .the .thing they anyway. and the last thing they oiionooi— anyway. and the last thing they oiionoo, i— anyway. and the last thing they offered, i can't- anyway. and the last thing they offered, i can't remember what it offered, i can't remember what ii-ii-o— offered, i can't remember what ii-ii-o inoi— offered, i can't remember what ii-ii-o inoi inoi- it was, but it's just just oh noon. — it was, but it's just just oh noon. -going- it was, but it's just just ohi yeah. -going.have yeah. are we going to have a oion—going- yeah. are we going to have a oion—going io| yeah. are we going to have a. slow-going to be slow death? we're going to be oiionoo— slow death? we're going to be oiionoo io— slow death? we're going to be allowed to have- slow death? we're going to be allowed to have our house noooooooono— allowed to have our house repossessed within 12 months noinon— repossessed within 12 months noinon inon— repossessed within 12 months rather than six.- repossessed within 12 months rather than six. i- repossessed within 12 months rather than six. i can't rather than six. i just can't inoiono— rather than six. i just can't nonooo-oi- rather than six. i just can't believe-of touchj rather than six. i just can'ti believe-of touch , believe it. so out of touch, inoi— believe it. so out of touch, inoi oo— believe it. so out of touch, inoi oo ongnn— believe it. so out of touch, just so angry. need to vote just so angry. we need to vote for just so angry. we need to vote ion anybody— just so angry. we need to vote for anybody but- just so angry. we need to vote for anybody but the three main nonioo— for anybody but the three main parties-election- for anybody but the three main parties election because parties in this election because inono-o— parties in this election because inono-o in— parties in this election because there's 14 other- parties in this election because there's 14 other candidates and i there's 14 other candidates and i ininn— there's 14 other candidates and i ininn ii— there's 14 other candidates and i ininn ii no— there's 14 other candidates and i think if we vote- there's 14 other candidates and i think if we vote for them, noii— i think if we vote for them, not no— i think if we vote for them, we'll be everybody we'll be telling everybody that it's we'll be telling everybody that ii-o—oiono- we'll be telling everybody that ii-o—oiono .- we'll be telling everybody that it's-above . just. it's none of the above. just oon-i— it's none of the above. just oon-i noni— it's none of the above. just don't want sorry, i'm don't want this. sorry, i'm nooiin— don't want this. sorry, i'm nooiin-. — don't want this. sorry, i'm really-. really. don't want this. sorry, i'm . really-. really angry. don't want this. sorry, i'm - really-. really angry. no, really angry. really angry. no, fair i think a lot of fair enough. i think a lot of people very, people feel very, very disaffected , i should in disaffected, i should say, in the of transparent sea the interest of transparent sea boiling. absolutely boiling. you are spokesman for the reform are a spokesman for the reform party who, of course, are not

standing in uxbridge. they've stood down for laurence fox's reclaim . but thank you. thank reclaim. but thank you. thank you for that. okay let's talk now to thomas. thomas, you are a constituent here for have you decided who you're going to vote for or are you indeed going to vote? well it's definitely going to be for conservative because they've been here enough they've been here long enough and messed everything and they've messed everything up. know , the economy, the up. you know, the economy, the nonoonio— up. you know, the economy, the nonoonio ino— l. you know, the economy, the pandemic, the amount of money inon-no— pandemic, the amount of money they've innonn— pandemic, the amount of money they've thrown around and a gnooi— they've thrown around and a gnooi noini— they've thrown around and a gnooi noini non— they've thrown around and a great point you made sympathy. noon— great point you made sympathy. noon inono— great point you made sympathy. yeah, there was- great point you made sympathy. yeah, there was a- great point you made sympathy. yeah, there was a lot of money given— yeah, there was a lot of money ginon oni— yeah, there was a lot of money given out, furlough, etcetera . given out, furlough, etcetera. ini— given out, furlough, etcetera. ioi no— given out, furlough, etcetera. ioi no inoi— given out, furlough, etcetera. but we just seem to be going ioonnonoo— but we just seem to be going backwards and- but we just seem to be going backwards and backwards and iooknonio— backwards and backwards and backwards. and- backwards and backwards and backwards. and it's a shame iooonoo— backwards. and it's a shame iooonoo ino— backwards. and it's a shame because the most vulnerable and oonooioiin— because the most vulnerable and oonooioiin noonio— because the most vulnerable and especially people who've got nongogoo— especially people who've got nongogoo .— especially people who've got mortgages , they've those mortgages, they've paid those nongogoo— mortgages, they've paid those nongogoo ion— mortgages, they've paid those mortgages for 20 - mortgages, they've paid those mortgages for 20 odd and mortgages for 20 odd years and non— mortgages for 20 odd years and they-lose— mortgages for 20 odd years and they-lose their- mortgages for 20 odd years and they lose their their they could lose their their nonoo— they could lose their their nonoo in— they could lose their their house in less- they could lose their their house in less than 12 months. so inon— house in less than 12 months. so inon iooo— house in less than 12 months. so they lose everything. all the oonooii— they lose everything. all the deposit-down,. they lose everything. all the deposit down, all the deposit they put down, all the onon— deposit they put down, all the every investment- deposit they put down, all the every investment they've put oonn— every investment they've put gown-ano— every investment they've put down -and then - every investment they've put down and then they become down to it. and then they become nonoiooo. — homeless. and it just exacerbates- homeless. and it just- exacerbates-because then exacerbates things because then inon-no — exacerbates things because then inon-no .io — exacerbates things because then inon-no-io io— exacerbates things because then they've to be rehoused they've got to be rehoused as noii— they've got to be rehoused as non-oi—

they've got to be rehoused as non-oi noonio- they've got to be rehoused asi well-of people losing well. a lot of people losing sleep, i imagine, moment, sleep, i imagine, at the moment, and very quickly, obviously and just very quickly, obviously , with your experience of the nhs and as a constituent of the former pm, you weren't impressed with partygate . no, i wasn't with partygate. no, i wasn't iooonoo— with partygate. no, i wasn't iooonoo no— with partygate. no, i wasn't because he had- 3 no, i wasn't because he had covid, and yet ioon— because he had covid, and yet ioon nnoi— because he had covid, and yet look what he's- because he had covid, and yet look what he's done and he lied all look what he's done and he lied oii ino— look what he's done and he lied oii on non— look what he's done and he lied all the way through it and we all the way through it and we oii nnon— all the way through it and we all knew that- all the way through it and we all knew that and they procrastinated with it. and i inoi— procrastinated with it. and i inoi ininn— procrastinated with it. and i just think they- procrastinated with it. and i just think they should all be ooonon— just think they should all be sacked because- just think they should all be sacked because anybody else in a nonnnoi— sacked because anybody else in a nonnoi ioi,— sacked because anybody else in a normal job, they'd - sacked because anybody else in a normal job, they'd done oonoining— normal job, they'd done something like that would automatically- something like that would automatically be sacked . 1“ automatically be sacked. so an nnininnooooi— automatically be sacked. so an unimpressed people's panel, i'm afraid, camilla, from here in uxbfidge afraid, camilla, from here in uxbridge today. great job, ooinonino— uxbridge today. great job, ooinonino .— uxbridge today. great job, catherine . i- uxbridge today. great job, catherine . i can- uxbridge today. great job, catherine . i can feel. i291? : great job, catherine . i can feel john's catherine. i can feel john's ongon— catherine. i can feel john's ongon inon— catherine. i can feel john's anger from here- catherine. i can feel john's anger from here over in paddington. - anger from here over in paddington. he's absolutely oooiiing— paddington. he's absolutely seething. and- paddington. he's absolutely seething. and i- paddington. he's absolutely seething. and i think lots of noonio— seething. and i think lots of noonio oon— seething. and i think lots of people can empathise and onnnoinioo— people can empathise and sympathise with his position ioio— sympathise with his position now. lots more- sympathise with his position now. lots more to come on iooion-o— now. lots more to come on iooion-o onon— now. lots more to come on iooion-o onon .— now. lots more to come on today's show. in- now. lots more to come on today's show. in just a minute, in— today's show. in just a minute, in going— today's show. in just a minute, i'm going quizzing former i'm going to be quizzing former ionoign— i'm going to be quizzing former foreign-malcolmi foreign secretary sir malcolm ioiiiino— foreign secretary sir malcolm ioiiiino on— foreign secretary sir malcolm rifkind on the- foreign secretary sir malcolm rifkind on the latest coming out of rifkind on the latest coming out 0f_90_

britain's news . channel , britain's news. channel welcome iooi— britain's news. channel welcome iooi io— britain's news. channel welcome iooi io ino— britain's news. channel welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to be joined in the studio by sir malcolm rifkind, former foreign secretary and the perfect to secretary and the perfect man to take what has take us through what has recently sir recently happened in russia. sir malcolm, lovely to see you this. thank much. what's your thank you very much. what's your initial reaction what's initial reaction to what's gone on 48 hours? on over the last 24 to 48 hours? well, 24 hours ago, would have well, 24 hours ago, i would have ooio— well, 24 hours ago, i would have ooni—nooi— said this is the most extraordinary event that has nonnonoo.— extraordinary event that has. nonnonoo.—zo happened. but i was wrong. 24 nonno—nono- hours later, it's even more ooinoonoinonn— hours later, it's even more extraordinary because putin, by his extraordinary because putin, by nio iooi— extraordinary because putin, by no iooi oi— extraordinary because putin, by his lack of real- extraordinary because putin, by his lack of real leadership, has

ioioiin— his lack of real leadership, has totally humiliated himself. vooionoon— totally humiliated himself. yesterday morning, he came on in the yesterday morning, he came on in one noniin— yesterday morning, he came on in the kremlin speaking to the ionooion— the kremlin speaking to the russian people,- the kremlin speaking to the russian people, this was russian people, saying this was treason,-mutiny.- russian people, saying this was treason, mutiny. they treason, this is mutiny. they niii— treason, this is mutiny. they niii io— treason, this is mutiny. they will be crushed.- treason, this is mutiny. they will be crushed. prigozhin will be will be crushed. prigozhin will no onnooioo— will be crushed. prigozhin will be arrested and- will be crushed. prigozhin will be arrested and dealt with nnononin— be arrested and dealt with properly within hours. putin inigoznin— properly within hours. putin prigozhin has- properly within hours. putin prigozhin has pardoned to leave nooooiniin— prigozhin has pardoned to leave nooooiniin .— prigozhin has pardoned to leave nooooiniin . ino— prigozhin has pardoned to leave peacefully . the wagner group now peacefully. the wagner group now gooo— peacefully. the wagner group now gooo iooi— peacefully. the wagner group now gooo iooi oo— peacefully. the wagner group now goes back as the- peacefully. the wagner group now goes back as the wagner group. yes goes back as the wagner group. voo nno— goes back as the wagner group. noo and why— goes back as the wagner group. yes and why does- goes back as the wagner group. yes and why does that happen? it nonnono— yes and why does that happen? it happens because- yes and why does that happen? it happens because he did not have the happens because he did not have one niiiion— happens because he did not have the military capability despite this the military capability despite inio nooi— the military capability despite this vast army- the military capability despite this vast army he's got of oionning— this vast army he's got of oionning o— this vast army he's got of oionning o oion- this vast army he's got of stopping a city like rostov with 1 stopping a city like rostov with i niiiion— stopping a city like rostov with 1 million people- stopping a city like rostov with 1 million people being occupied 40 1 million people being occupied no niioo— 1 million people being occupied 40 miles from - 1 million people being occupied 40 miles from the- 1 million people being occupied 40 miles from the border. i/i?~3 40 miles from the border. yes. so 40 miles from the border. yes. so nooiing— 40 miles from the border. yes. so reading between- 40 miles from the border. yes. so reading between the lines, what do you think has happened? he's bunged prigozhin a shedload of cash . got lukashenko to of cash. got lukashenko to broker some deal, but it isn't prigozhin now a dead man walking. no,i prigozhin now a dead man walking. no, i don't actually inini— walking. no, i don't actually inini no— walking. no, i don't actually inini no io— walking. no, i don't actually think he is. first- walking. no, i don't actually think he is. first of- “g no, i don't actually think he is. first of all, i oonni— think he is. first of all, i oonii ii— think he is. first of all, i doubt if there - think he is. first of all, i doubt if there was any cash nogninoo. — doubt if there was any cash required. prigozhin is already inonooiiin— required. prigozhin is already incredibly wealthy because of various business- incredibly wealthy because of various business opportunities. his various business opportunities. on niiiion— various business opportunities. his million-found- various business opportunities. his million-found in- various business opportunities. his million-found in bags. various business opportunities. his million is found in bags in. it wasn't. it wasn't about cash. go,— it wasn't. it wasn't about cash. goi-o— it wasn't. it wasn't about cash. go,-g-mgn- it wasn't. it wasn't about cash.. no,-a.man walking. no, he's not a dead man walking. noii— no, he's not a dead man walking. non-io— no, he's not a dead man walking. well,-be bumped-

no, he's not a dead man walking. well, be bumped off. well, he might be bumped off. inoi— well, he might be bumped off. that-possible.. well, he might be bumped off. that possible. but that is obviously possible. but inoi—ol that was always, in theory, a noooiiiiiin— that was always, in theory, a noooiniiiin .— that was always, in theory, a possibility. he- that was always, in theory, a possibility . he prigozhin is possibility. he but prigozhin is not possibility. he but prigozhin is noi ino— possibility. he but prigozhin is not the issue. - possibility. he but prigozhin is not the issue. forgive me, iooonoo— not the issue. forgive me, because the - not the issue. forgive me, because the real issue is nnoinon— because the real issue is whether putin's authority has ioon— whether putin's authority has ioon ioioiin— whether putin's authority has been totally destroyed. it was oinooon— been totally destroyed. it was oinooon on— been totally destroyed. it was already on the- been totally destroyed. it was already on the slide because of the already on the slide because of one ioiinnoo— already on the slide because of the failures in- already on the slide because of the failures in the- already on the slide because of the failures in the ukraine war. non— the failures in the ukraine war. non nnoo— the failures in the ukraine war. non nnoi oo— the failures in the ukraine war. now what was extraordinary nooionoon— now what was extraordinary yesterday when- now what was extraordinary yesterday when he made his great onooon— yesterday when he made his great onooon in— yesterday when he made his great onooon in ino— yesterday when he made his great speech in the kremlin, he oonnonoo— speech in the kremlin, he compared what was happening to 1917 compared what was happening to on us— compared what was happening to on us nno— compared what was happening to 1917 us and why?- compared what was happening to 1917 us and why? because two years— 1917 us and why? because two noono ioion— 1917 us and why? because two noono ioion no— 1917 us and why? because two years later, he said that tsar was overthrown - years later, he said that tsar was overthrown as if he was the ioon— was overthrown as if he was the ioon ono— was overthrown as if he was the ioon onoi noii— was overthrown as if he was the tsar and, well, in- was overthrown as if he was the tsar and, well, in a- was overthrown as if he was the tsar and, well, in a sense, nnooioiing— tsar and, well, in a sense, predicting his- tsar and, well, in a sense, predicting his own demise. if inio— predicting his own demise. if inio oni— predicting his own demise. if inio oni o— predicting his own demise. if this wasn't a spectacular own gooi — this wasn't a spectacular own gooi ini— this wasn't a spectacular own gooi nno nin— this wasn't a spectacular own goal. but why would - this wasn't a spectacular own goal. : goal. but why would he say that if he's lost the plot, he's losing it ? if he's lost the plot, he's losing it? what do you put that down in power? not down to? too long in power? not well. uneasy is the head well. yes uneasy is the head inoi— well. yes uneasy is the head inoi noono— well. yes uneasy is the head that wears the- i/i?~3 uneasy is the head that wears the crown. he's a one iono. — that wears the crown. he's a one man band. there- that wears the crown. he's a one man band. there is- that wears the crown. he's a one man band. there is no party. he nonnooonio— man band. there is no party. he represents there- man band. there is no party. he represents there is- man band. there is no party. he represents there is no national nnononnoni no— represents there is no national movement. he represents in onioionoo— movement. he represents in substance. he's- movement. he represents in substance. he's a one man oioioion— substance. he's a one man oioioion. non— substance. he's a one man dictator. you see- substance. he's a one man dictator. you see that when he oiio— dictator. you see that when he oiio oi— dictator. you see that when he oiio oi ino— dictator. you see that when he sits at the end- dictator. you see that when he sits at the end of- dictator. you see that when he sits at the end of these very iong— sits at the end of these very iong nonioo— sits at the end of these very iong ioiioo .— sits at the end of these very long tables . and- sits at the end of these very long tables . and his cabinet long tables. and his cabinet ooiioognoo— long tables. and his cabinet colleagues are- long tables. and his cabinet colleagues are about half a mile onon. — colleagues are about half a mile onon. non-no— colleagues are about half a mile onon. non-no noi— colleagues are about half a mile away. you're not allowed to be

ino— away. you're not allowed to be near the tsar.- away. you're not allowed to be near the tsar. so- away. you're not allowed to be near the tsar. so when you're in inoi— near the tsar. so when you're in that situation,- near the tsar. so when you're in that situation, you're judgement iooonoo— that situation, you're judgement becomes slowly- that situation, you're judgement becomes slowly warped . he's not becomes slowly warped. he's not onoo-n— becomes slowly warped. he's not craz-v inoi— becomes slowly warped. he's not crazy. that would - becomes slowly warped. he's not crazy. that would be a mistake . crazy. that would be a mistake. no-o— crazy. that would be a mistake. no-o noiionoi— crazy. that would be a mistake. he's rational in- crazy. that would be a mistake. he's rational in his- crazy. that would be a mistake. he's rational in his own terms , he's rational in his own terms, ini— he's rational in his own terms, in no— he's rational in his own terms, in no noo— he's rational in his own terms, but he has become obsessed with his but he has become obsessed with no onn— but he has become obsessed with no nonon— but he has become obsessed with his own power and- but he has become obsessed with his own power and with his own his own power and with his own nio onn— his own power and with his own his own survival. - his own power and with his own his own survival. but he's ioiioo— his own survival. but he's ioiioo io— his own survival. but he's failed to provide leadership. ii-o— failed to provide leadership. to noon— failed to provide leadership. it's been known- failed to provide leadership. it's been known for months that inigoznin — it's been known for months that inigoznin oo— it's been known for months that prigozhin was a- it's been known for months that prigozhin was a menace to him. inigoznin— prigozhin was a menace to him. inigoznin oo— prigozhin was a menace to him. prigozhin was slagging out his noionoo— prigozhin was slagging out his defence minister- prigozhin was slagging out his defence minister or his chief of oioii— defence minister or his chief of oioii in— defence minister or his chief of oioii in ino— defence minister or his chief of staff in the most- defence minister or his chief of staff in the most crude for ooiiing— staff in the most crude for calling putin. - staff in the most crude for calling putin. i- staff in the most crude for calling putin. : calling putin. i think yesterday granddad, well, he never deliberately attacked putin, but it was obvious if you are condemning the way the war is being run and it's putin's war and the overall control, and he has the overall control, you may attack the defence minister or the chief of staff. it's actually putin. indirectly, non-no—oooniioi you're attacking and despite inoi— you're attacking and despite inoi, iniin— you're attacking and despite that, putin neither had the nonon— that, putin neither had the power nor the- that, putin neither had the power nor the will actually power nor the will to actually inionono— power nor the will to actually intervene from - power nor the will to actually intervene from a- power nor the will to actually intervene from a position of oinongin— intervene from a position of oinongin io— intervene from a position of strength to sort- intervene from a position of strength to sort out this mess. nno— strength to sort out this mess. and no— strength to sort out this mess. and no inoi— strength to sort out this mess. and he tried to- strength to sort out this mess. and he tried to sort of distance ninooii— and he tried to sort of distance himself from - and he tried to sort of distance himself from it.- and he tried to sort of distance himself from it. i- and he tried to sort of distance himself from it. i am above inio.— himself from it. i am above inio. ioi— himself from it. i am above this. let these- himself from it. i am above this. let these minions sort inio— this. let these minions sort this.themselves.- this. let these minions sort this themselves. and that's this out themselves. and that's inoi— this out themselves. and that's no nonio— this out themselves. and that's that would be - this out themselves. and that's that would be bad. in peacetime, it's disastrous- that would be bad. in peacetime, it's disastrous when- that would be bad. in peacetime, it's disastrous when you're iigniing—

it's disastrous when you're iigniing-ono- it's disastrous when you're fighting and what does the fighting a war and what does the nooi— fighting a war and what does the nooi ooo — fighting a war and what does the west do? what- fighting a war and what does the west do? what ?- fighting a war and what does the west do? in“? 7’ wait. 1“ fighting a war and what does the west do? �*vni�*h? 7’ wait.“ ?1“i: fighting a war and what does the west do? 7 , ?1“i: west do? what? watch and see how this plays this particular this plays out. this particular one, this is internal. this. it has major external- this. it has major external consequences. it has major external consequences. ii noo— has major external consequences. it has consequences- has major external consequences. it has consequences of a very onoonnoging— it has consequences of a very encouraging kind- it has consequences of a very encouraging kind for the ukraine ooniiioi— encouraging kind for the ukraine ooniiioi. ini— encouraging kind for the ukraine conflict. but you- encouraging kind for the ukraine conflict. but you don't inionnono— conflict. but you don't intervene in- conflict. but you don't intervene in this. you don't inionoooo— intervene in this. you don't intercede on- intervene in this. you don't intercede on private grief . yes. intercede on private grief. yes. let intercede on private grief. yes. ioi inon— intercede on private grief. yes. ioi inon noi— intercede on private grief. yes. let them not sort- intercede on private grief. yes. let them not sort it out because no— let them not sort it out because no-o noi— let them not sort it out because he's not sorted- let them not sort it out because he's not sorted it- let them not sort it out because he's not sorted it out. he's onioo— he's not sorted it out. he's inioo io— he's not sorted it out. he's tried to push- he's not sorted it out. he's tried to push it- he's not sorted it out. he's tried to push it off to a later day— tried to push it off to a later oon .— tried to push it off to a later oon . ini— tried to push it off to a later day. but throughout tried to push it off to a later day . but throughout russia, day. but throughout russia, noiio— day. but throughout russia, motty millions- day. but throughout russia, motty millions of ordinary ionooiono— motty millions of ordinary russians in- motty millions of ordinary russians in the army, millions, a russians in the army, millions, o niiiion— russians in the army, millions, a million soldiers- russians in the army, millions, a million soldiers will be ooning— a million soldiers will be ooning io— a million soldiers will be saying to themselves, what sort of saying to themselves, what sort oi nnooiooni— saying to themselves, what sort of president is- saying to themselves, what sort of president is this? when you nono— of president is this? when you nono on— of president is this? when you have an invasion- of president is this? when you have an invasion of russia iiooii— have an invasion of russia iiooii o— have an invasion of russia iiooii o city— have an invasion of russia itself, a city of- have an invasion of russia itself, a city of a million noonio— itself, a city of a million noonio .— itself, a city of a million noonio , no— itself, a city of a million people , 40 miles from the people, 40 miles from the ionnon— people, 40 miles from the border, and- people, 40 miles from the border, and there aren't even any— border, and there aren't even on ionooion— border, and there aren't even any russian troops in between, but any russian troops in between, in ono— any russian troops in between, in ino— any russian troops in between, but are the russian ready but are the russian people ready for but are the russian people ready ion onongoo — but are the russian people ready for change? we- but are the russian people ready for change? we are- but are the russian people ready for change? �*vni�*i? "i?1? i1?ii: for change? we are always told, andifs for change? we are always told, and it's historically correct that russians, partly because of their history and their culture, like strong leadership, and it is equally correct that for the first ten, 15 years of his presidency, putin provided that the yeltsin years will look back

as chaotic . yeltsin himself was as chaotic. yeltsin himself was an as chaotic. yeltsin himself was on oioonoiio— as chaotic. yeltsin himself was an alcoholic and- , it. yeltsin himself was an alcoholic and putin at first ooooo— an alcoholic and putin at first ooooo io— an alcoholic and putin at first ooooo io io— an alcoholic and putin at first seemed to be delivering what ionooio— seemed to be delivering what russia needed.- seemed to be delivering what russia needed. and in a sense ooiinoning— russia needed. and in a sense was delivering that the economy innnonoo— was delivering that the economy innnonoo ono— was delivering that the economy improved and so- was delivering that the economy improved and so forth. the last ino— improved and so forth. the last iino years— improved and so forth. the last five years have- improved and so forth. the last five years have been very bad ono— five years have been very bad ono ii-o— five years have been very bad and it's basically,- five years have been very bad and it's basically, you know, inoi— and it's basically, you know, that famous- and it's basically, you know, that famous saying, power oonnnnio— that famous saying, power. corrupts- power corrupts and absolute power oonnnnio— corrupts and absolute power oononn—.- corrupts and absolute power oonnnnio—. andl corrupts and absolute power. corrupts-. and that is corrupts absolutely. and that is nnoi— corrupts absolutely. and that is no noo— corrupts absolutely. and that is what has happened with putin. he oiioni— what has happened with putin. he oion-i nono— what has happened with putin. he didn't have experience of the onnn— didn't have experience of the onnnlnoo— didn't have experience of the army..was never- didn't have experience of the army. was never in the army. army. he was never in the army. nno— army. he was never in the army. nno noi— army. he was never in the army. nno noi-io— army. he was never in the army. nno noilio in— army. he was never in the army. and yet.is in charge- army. he was never in the army. and yet is in charge of a and yet he is in charge of a. war.-neverl diplomat. and yet he is in charge of a- war.-neverldiplomat. he war. he was never a diplomat. he oo- no— war. he was never a diplomat. he was-. he was a kgb. war. he was never a diplomat. he was . he was a kgb man. was a spook. he was a kgb man. so was a spook. he was a kgb man. so no— was a spook. he was a kgb man. so no-o noi— was a spook. he was a kgb man. so he's not stupid,- was a spook. he was a kgb man. so he's not stupid, but he's got iniioi— so he's not stupid, but he's got limited ability,- so he's not stupid, but he's got limited ability, limited knowledge. - limited ability, limited knowledge. so what's the most nnon— knowledge. so what's the most likely scenario? - knowledge. so what's the most likely scenario? i1?; knowledge. so what's the most likely scenario? he's obviously weakened and parts of the public may be turning against or at may be turning against him or at least increasingly least being increasingly sceptical leadership . sceptical about his leadership. is he then the subject of a coup from within the kremlin? well, we know. and i'm not going we don't know. and i'm not going to we don't know. and i'm not going io nnoiono— we don't know. and i'm not going io nnoiono i— we don't know. and i'm not going to pretend i know- we don't know. and i'm not going to pretend i know any- 01?“ g and i'm not going to pretend i know any more than anybody— to pretend i know any more than onnioon oioo. — to pretend i know any more than anybody else. but- to pretend i know any more than anybody else. but if ask me anybody else. but if you ask me nnoo— anybody else. but if you ask me nnoo-io— anybody else. but if you ask me nnoi-io ino— anybody else. but if you ask me what-is the most- anybody else. but if you ask me what is the most likely what i think is the most likely ooononn-ii— what i think is the most likely scenario,.it may- what i think is the most likely scenario, it may in three scenario, and it may be in three nonino— scenario, and it may be in three nonno-non— scenario, and it may be in three months-may not- scenario, and it may be in three months-may not be. scenario, and it may be in three months may not be for months time, it may not be for onoinon— months time, it may not be for onoinon-ino— months time, it may not be for another-two years. . another year or two years. ioononion— another year or two years. remember.the- another year or two years. remember.the missile remember after the cuban missile _ remember after the cuban missile onoioo-— remember after the cuban missile onioioo- noon— remember after the cuban missile

crisis,-a year after- remember after the cuban missile crisis, a year after the crisis, it was a year after the sonioio— crisis, it was a year after the sonioio noo— crisis, it was a year after the soviets had failed, that khrushchev - soviets had failed, that khrushchev was just quietly nonnooo— khrushchev was just quietly nonnnooo in— khrushchev was just quietly removed by his- khrushchev was just quietly removed by his own colleagues in the removed by his own colleagues in one ioiiiinno— removed by his own colleagues in the politburo and- removed by his own colleagues in the politburo and sent off to his the politburo and sent off to no ooono— the politburo and sent off to his dacha to- the politburo and sent off to his dacha to retire. now now, at oiogo— his dacha to retire. now now, at oiogo ono— his dacha to retire. now now, at some stage and it- his dacha to retire. now now, at some stage and it could be these iningo— some stage and it could be these iningo-io— some stage and it could be these things.to accelerate- some stage and it could be these things to accelerate once things tend to accelerate once the things tend to accelerate once rrre pess— things tend to accelerate once rrre process-ar- things tend to accelerate once the process at some the process begins. at some srepe— the process begins. at some srepe ,— the process begins. at some srepe , e— the process begins. at some srepe , e prepp— the process begins. at some stage , a group of the most stage, a group of the most senior russians— stage, a group of the most senior russians around putin, it's senior russians around putin, rr-s per— senior russians around putin, rr-s per going— senior russians around putin, it's not going to— senior russians around putin, it's not going to be a popular pprpsppp— it's not going to be a popular pprrsrpp. ne— it's not going to be a popular uprising. no it's— it's not going to be a popular uprising. no it's not going to be re— uprising. no it's not going to be re army— uprising. no it's not going to be the army over— uprising. no it's not going to be the army over a military seep. — be the army over a military seep. lwru— be the army over a military seep. lwru pe— be the army over a military coup..will be a- be the army over a military coup. will be a mixture of coup. it will be a mixture of some generals— coup. it will be a mixture of some generals ,_ coup. it will be a mixture of some generals , some fsb , some generals, some fsb, intelligence— some generals, some fsb, intelligence agency people, some of intelligence agency people, some or re— intelligence agency people, some of the oligarchs. _ intelligence agency people, some of the oligarchs. and they will say— of the oligarchs. and they will say ,— of the oligarchs. and they will say , comrade— of the oligarchs. and they will say , comrade vladimir, we think say, comrade vladimir, we think it's say, comrade vladimir, we think rr-s rime— say, comrade vladimir, we think it's time perhaps— say, comrade vladimir, we think it's time perhaps for you to repre— it's time perhaps for you to rerrre re— it's time perhaps for you to retire to your— it's time perhaps for you to retire to your dacha, tap on a shopper,— retire to your dacha, tap on a shopper rep— retire to your dacha, tap on a shoulder, tap on— retire to your dacha, tap on a shoulder, tap on the shoulder. arre— shoulder, tap on the shoulder. and if— shoulder, tap on the shoulder. and if you— shoulder, tap on the shoulder. ape rr you see— shoulder, tap on the shoulder. and if you see if— shoulder, tap on the shoulder. and if you see if you're one man, however people and if you see if you're one- man, however-people you've man, however many people you've got man, however many people you've per—spee- man, however many people you've per—epee rpey- man, however many people you've got wanting once they man, however many people you've got wanting protectz they man, however many people you've got wanting protect youey man, however many people you've got wanting protect you , stop wanting to protect you, rpere-s— stop wanting to protect you, there's nothing _ stop wanting to protect you, there's nothing you do about there's nothing you can do about it. there's nothing you can do about it .sp— there's nothing you can do about it. .sir malcolm,— there's nothing you can do about it. sir malcolm, finally, there's nothing you can do about it. does vialcolm, finally, there's nothing you can do about it. does this olm, finally, there's nothing you can do about it. does this leave nally, there's nothing you can do about it. does this leave president where does this leave president zerepskw— where does this leave president zerepsrw erre— where does this leave president zelenskyy and the— where does this leave president zelenskyy and the ukraine war, do zelenskyy and the ukraine war, as per— zelenskyy and the ukraine war, as per rprpke— zelenskyy and the ukraine war, as per rprpke — zelenskyy and the ukraine war, do you think? i— zelenskyy and the ukraine war, do you think? " g do you think? i mean wagner now goes back to support the russian troops. we don't know for troops. well we don't know for certain exactly what's going to happen, indeed the happen, but that is indeed the likelihood. but how is that going—

likelihood. but how is that pomp-ne. - likelihood. but how is that going - no. where i likelihood. but how is that. going-no. where do likelihood. but how is that- going-no. where do we going to work? no. where do we going to work? no. where do we go-where_ going to work? no. where do we go -where.probably- going to work? no. where do we go where probably go go from where we probably go from— go from where we probably go from-rerms— go from where we probably go from -terms of- go from where we probably go from terms of ukraine from here in terms of ukraine wren— from here in terms of ukraine when rhe— from here in terms of ukraine when the ukrainians are already in peer— when the ukrainians are already in their counteroffensive ? that in their counteroffensive? that sprays— in their counteroffensive? that repays going— in their counteroffensive? that was always going to be very errrreprr— was always going to be very difficult because it's much re— difficult because it's much easier to defend than to recover greene— easier to defend than to recover greener rp— easier to defend than to recover ground pr or— easier to defend than to recover ground in an offensive because the ground in an offensive because he enemy— ground in an offensive because one eneny eros— ground in an offensive because the enemy digs in. and that's rnoeeo— the enemy digs in. and that's rnoeeo nnor— the enemy digs in. and that's indeed what we're seeing at the rnornenr — indeed what we're seeing at the moment. what's— indeed what we're seeing at the moment. what's happened in the last moment. what's happened in the rosr ze— moment. what's happened in the rosr ze nouns— moment. what's happened in the last 24 hours will— moment. what's happened in the last 24 hours will certainly more— last 24 hours will certainly makela_ last 24 hours will certainly make.a.easier- last 24 hours will certainly make.a.easier .- last 24 hours will certainly make a easier. another make it a lot easier. another pron— make it a lot easier. another pron-one— make it a lot easier. another blow-the morale- make it a lot easier. another blow the morale of the blow to the morale of the russian— blow to the morale of the russian another russian troops, another opponnnrry— russian troops, another opportunity for the ukrainians to opportunity for the ukrainians ro roenrny— opportunity for the ukrainians to identify points of weakness. they— to identify points of weakness. rney nnen— to identify points of weakness. rney nnen yon— to identify points of weakness. they when you have a momentum on your— they when you have a momentum on your side— they when you have a momentum on your sure one— they when you have a momentum on your side and when— they when you have a momentum on your side and when you have huge rnoroer— your side and when you have huge rnoroer on your— your side and when you have huge morale on your side.— your side and when you have huge morale on your side. yes then oner— morale on your side. yes then one usuouy— morale on your side. yes then that usually counts for a lot. nou— that usually counts for a lot. uou oner— that usually counts for a lot. now that doesn't— that usually counts for a lot. now that doesn't necessarily rney-re— now that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to sweep the russians— mean they're going to sweep the russians our— mean they're going to sweep the russians out of— mean they're going to sweep the russians out of crimea, but my peso— russians out of crimea, but my pesr guess— russians out of crimea, but my best guess would— russians out of crimea, but my best guess would be the next russians out of crimea, but my best 3 uess would be the next russians out of crimea, but my best3 months,ild be the next russians out of crimea, but my best 3 months, they; the next russians out of crimea, but my best 3 months, they willthe next russians out of crimea, but my best 3 months, they will require: 2 or 3 months, they will require a recover a significant amount of a recover a significant amount or rosr— a recover a significant amount of lost territory— a recover a significant amount of lost territory .— a recover a significant amount of lost territory . the big prize of lost territory. the big prize wru— of lost territory. the big prize nru pe— of lost territory. the big prize nru be u— of lost territory. the big prize will be if they— of lost territory. the big prize will be if they can get back to one— will be if they can get back to rne see— will be if they can get back to rne one— will be if they can get back to the sea, the sea— will be if they can get back to the sea, the sea of azov , and the sea, the sea of azov, and our— the sea, the sea of azov, and our rne— the sea, the sea of azov, and our rne runo— the sea, the sea of azov, and cut the land bridge between russia— cut the land bridge between russia ono— cut the land bridge between russia and crimea. that's the nosr— russia and crimea. that's the nosr ukery— russia and crimea. that's the most likely objective they have

. r— most likely objective they have . r nonr— most likely objective they have . r were one— most likely objective they have . i want the just— most likely objective they have . i want the just briefest answer to the next question very quickly, because you are foreign and former defence secretary, this blocking by biden of ben wallace being head of nato, is it a bad decision ? it wasn't it a bad decision? it wasn't nroen-s— it a bad decision? it wasn't biden's decision— it a bad decision? it wasn't biden's decision .- it a bad decision? it wasn't biden's decision. it's- c dec r:r::;rt. , it wasn't biden's decision . it's presented biden's decision. it's presented by one— biden's decision. it's presented by one perry— biden's decision. it's presented by the daily telegraph that way. and by the daily telegraph that way. no es— by the daily telegraph that way. no es o— by the daily telegraph that way. no es o sruy— by the daily telegraph that way. and it's a silly daily telegraph . rr-s— and it's a silly daily telegraph . us a— and it's a silly daily telegraph . us a sne— and it's a silly daily telegraph . it's a site about— and it's a silly daily telegraph . it's a site about everything all the time now. well, it was a spy— all the time now. well, it was a shy neooune— all the time now. well, it was a silly headline-nobody. all the time now. well, it was al silly headline-nobody is silly headline because nobody is ogornsr— silly headline because nobody is ogornsr pen— silly headline because nobody is against ben wallace. he's a gear— against ben wallace. he's a gear guy. — against ben wallace. he's a gear guy. rne— against ben wallace. he's a great guy. the americans think he great guy. the americans think ne poure— great guy. the americans think ne nouro pe— great guy. the americans think he would be a— great guy. the americans think he would be a perfectly good secretary—general. he would be a perfectly good- secretary—general. -was secretary—general. but there was a secretary—general. but there was o growing— secretary—general. but there was o gronrng rr-s— secretary—general. but there was o gronrng rr-s gor— secretary—general. but there was a growing it's got to be unanimous— a growing it's got to be unanimous of- a growing it's got to be unanimous of all 30 member srores— unanimous of all 30 member srores ono— unanimous of all 30 member srores one o— unanimous of all 30 member states and a.of- unanimous of all 30 member states and a of countries states and a lot of countries nonrea— states and a lot of countries wanted somebody either from rosrern— wanted somebody either from eastern europe— wanted somebody either from eastern europe perhaps eastern europe or perhaps a woman secretary—general woman as secretary—general for the—thankl the first time. all right. thank you indeed, sir. thank you very much indeed, sir. thank you very much indeed, sir. thank you joining you very much for joining me this up we this morning. now, up next, we have exclusive with have an exclusive interview with former minister former australian prime minister tony abbott, man who stopped tony abbott, the man who stopped the boats. don't anywhere. the boats. don't go anywhere. i'll

watching. we're proud to be gb news the people's channel. britain's news . news the people's channel. britain's news. channel news the people's channel. britain's news . channel welcome britain's news. channel welcome pron— britain's news. channel welcome poor so— britain's news. channel welcome poor so one— britain's news. channel welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm delighted to say that . joining me now in the studio is former australian prime minister abbott, man minister tony abbott, the man who stopped the boats who famously stopped the boats and i hear or i recall and i hear tony or i recall famously , he tried to square up famously, he tried to square up to putin back when mhi7 was downed by the russians. you've met this guy. what's your thoughts on what's happened in the last 48 hours and how long he can cling on? and the kremlin ? well, there's no doubt commu— ? well, there's no doubt camilla, that— 7’ well, there's no doubt camilla, that putin regards nrnsen— camilla, that putin regards nrnseu os— camilla, that putin regards himself as on— camilla, that putin regards himself as on a— camilla, that putin regards himself as on a mission from god,— himself as on a mission from ooo, nonr—

himself as on a mission from ooo, nono .— himself as on a mission from ooo, ngnr . ro— himself as on a mission from god, right . to recreate the god, right. to recreate the russia— god, right. to recreate the russia or— god, right. to recreate the russia of peter— god, right. to recreate the russia of peter the great. and onoo-s— russia of peter the great. and rnor-s uny— russia of peter the great. and rnor-s nny one— russia of peter the great. and that's why the ukraine war is so rnpononr— that's why the ukraine war is so rnpononr .— that's why the ukraine war is so important, because if ukraine ro— important, because if ukraine ro rou— important, because if ukraine were to fall back— important, because if ukraine were to fall back into the russian— were to fall back into the russian orbit,— were to fall back into the russian orbit, there's no doubt rnor— russian orbit, there's no doubt one one— russian orbit, there's no doubt that the baltic— russian orbit, there's no doubt that the baltic states, georgia , montoya— that the baltic states, georgia , moldova and— that the baltic states, georgia , moldova and poland would be next,— , moldova and poland would be next peeouse— , moldova and poland would be next, because as— , moldova and poland would be next, because as far as he's concerned, these- next, because as far as he's concerned, these are the greater nussron— concerned, these are the greater russian motherland's. and he reers— russian motherland's. and he reers rnor— russian motherland's. and he feels that his— russian motherland's. and he feels that his mission is to get rnen — feels that his mission is to get rnen poor. — feels that his mission is to get them back. he— feels that his mission is to get them back. he thinks that the greatest— them back. he thinks that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century— greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was— greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the— greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the break—up of the old century was the break—up of the ore sover— century was the break—up of the old soviet union— century was the break—up of the old soviet union and that's why ne-s— old soviet union and that's why ne-s suen— old soviet union and that's why ne-s suen o— old soviet union and that's why ne-s suen u very— old soviet union and that's why he's such a very dangerous person— he's such a very dangerous person uno— he's such a very dangerous person who does have to be stopped— person who does have to be stopped . — person who does have to be stopped . g person who does have to be stopped. d person who does have to be stopped . d stopped. although is he less dangerous or more dangerous this morning? i mean, obviously, this attempted coup is very much weakened. position and it's weakened. his position and it's made russians question whether he should go on any longer. what's your well we don't what's your view? well we don't really know exactly what's happened. obviously, really know exactly what's happened . obviously, there is a happened. obviously, there is a propren— happened. obviously, there is a problem between— happened. obviously, there is a problem between him- : obviously, there is a problem between him and the wagner—

problem between him and the progner oroup— problem between him and the wagner group it— problem between him and the wagner group it can't help but do wagner group it can't help but to damage— wagner group it can't help but do damage farage. but on the one— do damage farage. but on the one nono— do damage farage. but on the one nono .— do damage farage. but on the other hand , there's still a long other hand, there's still a long way— other hand, there's still a long way for— other hand, there's still a long way for rnrs— other hand, there's still a long way for this to— other hand, there's still a long way for this to play out. the unrorne— way for this to play out. the unorne ore— way for this to play out. the ukraine are doing their best to punen— ukraine are doing their best to punen rnerr— ukraine are doing their best to punch their way— ukraine are doing their best to punch their way through. very srgnrneonr— punch their way through. very significant russian defences ngnr— significant russian defences ngnr no— significant russian defences ngnr .— significant russian defences ngnr . r— significant russian defences right now . i don't think any of right now. i don't think any of us pe— right now. i don't think any of us be nappy— right now. i don't think any of us can be happy until every last rnen— us can be happy until every last non of— us can be happy until every last inch of ukraine— us can be happy until every last inch of ukraine is— us can be happy until every last inch of ukraine is liberated from— inch of ukraine is liberated from every— inch of ukraine is liberated from every last— inch of ukraine is liberated from every last russian soldier. were— from every last russian soldier. were you— from every last russian soldier. were you or— from every last russian soldier. were you of rho— from every last russian soldier. were you of the opinion- from every last russian soldier. were you of the opinion at- from every last russian soldier. were you of the opinion at the time when crimea was invaded that the west was a bit asleep at the wheel? i mean, did we do too much to try and bring putin in? actually we should have been more wary of what he was capable of. camilla, this is the second invasion, the first invasion took in 2014. and frankly, took place in 2014. and frankly, it took place in 2014. and frankly, r us— took place in 2014. and frankly, it o— took place in 2014. and frankly, it u very— took place in 2014. and frankly, it was a very tepid— t " $20” and frankly, it was a very tepid response peek— it was a very tepid response peek rnen— it was a very tepid response peek rnen .— it was a very tepid response back then . then, of course, in back then. then, of course, in ne— back then. then, of course, in rne week— back then. then, of course, in the week before— back then. then, of course, in the week before february the zen— the week before february the zen you— the week before february the porn, you not— the week before february the 24th, you had people like rresruenr— 24th, you had people like president biden saying that maybe— president biden saying that maybe o— president biden saying that maybe a minor— president biden saying that maybe a minor incursion could be

operated— maybe a minor incursion could be roreroreu sunse— maybe a minor incursion could be tolerated since the— maybe a minor incursion could be tolerated since the invasion. i rnrnu— tolerated since the invasion. i rnrnu rnor— tolerated since the invasion. i think that the _ tolerated since the invasion. i think that the west , tolerated since the invasion. i think that the west, in many respects— think that the west, in many respects reo— think that the west, in many respects, led by— think that the west, in many respects, led by britain , has respects, led by britain, has responded— respects, led by britain, has responded magnificently . but in responded magnificently. but in the responded magnificently. but in rne eng— responded magnificently. but in rne eng rne— responded magnificently. but in the end, the ukrainians can't run— the end, the ukrainians can't run urrnour— the end, the ukrainians can't win without that— the end, the ukrainians can't win without that help because rney— win without that help because rney need— win without that help because rney need me— win without that help because they need the heavy weaponry to moron— they need the heavy weaponry to moron rne — they need the heavy weaponry to match the heavy— they need the heavy weaponry to match the heavy weaponry that the match the heavy weaponry that rne nussrons— match the heavy weaponry that the russians have— match the heavy weaponry that the russians have got in abundance— the russians have got in abundance .— the russians have got in abundance . but it's great that abundance. but it's great that ranks— abundance. but it's great that ranks onu— abundance. but it's great that tanks and longer— abundance. but it's great that tanks and longer range missiles and armoured— tanks and longer range missiles and armoured vehicles and what nove— and armoured vehicles and what noue you— and armoured vehicles and what true you nove— and armoured vehicles and what have you have been supplied and but have you have been supplied and our rney— have you have been supplied and our rney oo— have you have been supplied and but they do need— have you have been supplied and but they do need more air. the propren— but they do need more air. the propren or— but they do need more air. the problem at the— but they do need more air. the problem at the moment is that rney— problem at the moment is that rney oon-r— problem at the moment is that they don't have— problem at the moment is that they don't have not only do they took— they don't have not only do they took on— they don't have not only do they lack air superiority,— they don't have not only do they lack air superiority, but it's nort— lack air superiority, but it's even hard to— lack air superiority, but it's even hard to contest the air space— even hard to contest the air space gruen— even hard to contest the air space given that- even hard to contest the air space given that they just don't nove— space given that they just don't noue enougn— space given that they just don't have enough modern aircraft. and i have enough modern aircraft. and rrnrnk— have enough modern aircraft. and rrnrnk n— have enough modern aircraft. and rrnrnk n rne— have enough modern aircraft. and i think if the if— have enough modern aircraft. and i think if the if the— have enough modern aircraft. and i think if the if the west is serious about— i think if the if the west is serious about ensuring that the ukrornes— serious about ensuring that the ukraines have— serious about ensuring that the ukraines have a— serious about ensuring that the ukraines have a win, rather than tusr— ukraines have a win, rather than tusr o— ukraines have a win, rather than just a stalemate— ukraines have a win, rather than just a stalemate ,_ ukraines have a win, rather than just a stalemate , jets such as just a stalemate, jets such as rne— just a stalemate, jets such as rne r,— just a stalemate, jets such as rne r, rne— just a stalemate, jets such as rne r, rne r— just a stalemate, jets such as the f, the f 16— just a stalemate, jets such as the f, the f 16 have to be provided— the f, the f 16 have to be poured .— the f, the f 16 have to be provided . and- the f, the f 16 have to be provided . and if biden just two

provided. and if biden just two ween— provided. and if biden just two week unten— provided. and if biden just two week unren r— provided. and if biden just two week, which i don't say he's too weak— week, which i don't say he's too week .— week, which i don't say he's too week , pur— week, which i don't say he's too week , pur r— week, which i don't say he's too weak , but i think— week, which i don't say he's too weak , but i think there is a weak, but i think there is a degree— weak, but i think there is a degree or— weak, but i think there is a degree of caution on the part of ogo— degree of caution on the part of nato collective _ degree of caution on the part of nato collective only some eounnres— nato collective only some countries are _ nato collective only some countries are more forward reonrng— countries are more forward reonrng rne— countries are more forward leaning the poles and the esenr— leaning the poles and the eastern europeans are very forward— eastern europeans are very forward leaning. britain has been— forward leaning. britain has been very— forward leaning. britain has been very forward leaning . the been very forward leaning. the rrenen— been very forward leaning. the rrenen onu— been very forward leaning. the french and the— been very forward leaning. the french and the germans have been the french and the germans have been rne roggorus— french and the germans have been the laggards here. _ french and the germans have been the laggards here. joe biden has been— the laggards here. joe biden has been rryrng— the laggards here. joe biden has been rryrng ro— the laggards here. joe biden has been trying to keep the show rogerner— been trying to keep the show rogerner .— been trying to keep the show rogerner, pur— been trying to keep the show together , but in— been trying to keep the show together , but in the end , together, but in the end, ukrorne— together, but in the end, ukrorne rs— together, but in the end, ukraine is fighting for the freedom— ukraine is fighting for the freedom of— ukraine is fighting for the freedom of all— ukraine is fighting for the freedom of all of us and all of us snouro— freedom of all of us and all of us snouro oo— freedom of all of us and all of us should do our— freedom of all of us and all of us should do our bit to help if rney-re— us should do our bit to help if rney-re rne— us should do our bit to help if they're the ones— us should do our bit to help if they're the ones that are going to nove— they're the ones that are going to tune ro— they're the ones that are going to have to fight— they're the ones that are going to have to fight and die at the very— to have to fight and die at the very reest— to have to fight and die at the very gag, ue— to have to fight and die at the very least, we can— to have to fight and die at the very least, we can give them the uepons— very least, we can give them the uuepons rney— very least, we can give them the weapons they need— very least, we can give them the weapons they need to win . weapons they need to win. let's pung— weapons they need to win. let's bring tr— weapons they need to win. let's bring it took— weapons they need to win. let's bring it back to— weapons they need to win. let's bring it back to domestic matters . now. i know you've been matters. now. i know you've been in the uk for some time. you were an event boris were at an event that boris johnson earlier johnson was speaking at earlier in . what's johnson was speaking at earlier in .what's your in the week. what's your characterisation rishi characterisation of how rishi sunakis characterisation of how rishi sunak is doing right now ? it's sunak is doing right now? it's very difficult to be the fifth

rune — very difficult to be the fifth prime minister— very difficult to be the fifth prime minister in on a continuum of prime minister in on a continuum or government— prime minister in on a continuum or government .— prime minister in on a continuum or government . r— prime minister in on a continuum of government. i think he's going— of government. i think he's doing o— of government. i think he's oorng u very— of government. i think he's doing a very good job under , doing a very good job under, excuse me, difficult circumstance . his i always say circumstance. his i always say rnor— circumstance. his i always say not rne— circumstance. his i always say that the important thing is to ereoer— that the important thing is to ereoer o— that the important thing is to create a contest— that the important thing is to create a contest ,_ that the important thing is to create a contest , that that's create a contest, that that's nou— create a contest, that that's non r— create a contest, that that's how i succeeded— create a contest, that that's how i succeeded as an opposition teeter.— how i succeeded as an opposition reooer. ano— how i succeeded as an opposition reooer. one r— how i succeeded as an opposition leader. and i tried— how i succeeded as an opposition leader. and i tried to continue as rune— leader. and i tried to continue as prime minister, create a contest— as prime minister, create a contest with— as prime minister, create a contest with the other side . contest with the other side. anu— contest with the other side. and no — contest with the other side. and no you — contest with the other side. and do you think— contest with the other side. and do you think he- contest with the other side. and do you think he should be deploying more attack lines on labour ? i mean, frank, london's labour? i mean, frank, london's apparently gave of the conservative party, the 1922 committee, some advice and they said you're just going to have to go negative because no one's being positive about conservatism now . i think conservatism right now. i think that the negative is important in politics, but you've also got to have a positive agenda of your own . and if the concern your own. and if the concern norrues— your own. and if the concern norrues ger— your own. and if the concern natives get another- " and if the concern natives get another term , what natives get another term, what is natives get another term, what rs going— natives get another term, what rs gorng ro— natives get another term, what rs gorng to re— natives get another term, what is going to be different and perrere— is going to be different and better? are— is going to be different and better? are they going to, for rnsoneer — better? are they going to, for instance, drop— better? are they going to, for instance, drop the ban on diesel

onu— instance, drop the ban on diesel and perrou— instance, drop the ban on diesel and petrol powered cars? are rney— and petrol powered cars? are rney oo— and petrol powered cars? are rney go you— and petrol powered cars? are they do you think it's foolhardy this they do you think it's foolhardy rnrs ner— they do you think it's foolhardy rnrs ner ero— they do you think it's foolhardy this net zero target the conservatives - this net zero target the conservatives concentrating on green— conservatives concentrating on green eyes— conservatives concentrating on green levies, putting green eyes— green levies, putting green eyes on— green levies, putting green levies on energy bills . �*fu�*rz; ”rt; levies on energy bills. we're nuenuy— levies on energy bills. we're already struggling with our energy bills. well, certainly if rnrs— energy bills. well, certainly if rnrs es— energy bills. well, certainly if this was back— energy bills. well, certainly if this was back in— rt;“rt”r:wr well, certainly if this was back in australia rt“t”r:wr well, certainly if this was back in australia and it this was back in australia and n es— this was back in australia and n rne— this was back in australia and it was the coalition that was going— it was the coalition that was doing rnrs— it was the coalition that was doing this, i'd— it was the coalition that was doing this, i'd be very much egernsr— doing this, i'd be very much egernsr n.— doing this, i'd be very much egernsr n. r— doing this, i'd be very much against it. i don't want to be grung— against it. i don't want to be grurng roo— against it. i don't want to be giving too much— against it. i don't want to be giving too much explicit advice to e— giving too much explicit advice to e prorner— giving too much explicit advice to a brother political party, pur— to a brother political party, but tn— to a brother political party, our in ne— to a brother political party, but in the end— to a brother political party, but in the end ,_ to a brother political party, but in the end , what's more but in the end, what's more rnponenr— but in the end, what's more important keeping the lights on or getting— important keeping the lights on or getting emissions down? tuner-s— or getting emissions down? tuner-s snore— or getting emissions down? what's more important? keeping your— what's more important? keeping your industries— what's more important? keeping your industries alive or. this green— your industries alive or. this green nrruene— your industries alive or. this green nirvana that we're all ernrng— green nirvana that we're all ernrng tor— green nirvana that we're all aiming for and— green nirvana that we're all aiming for and my fear is that it's aiming for and my fear is that its onry— aiming for and my fear is that its onuy tn— aiming for and my fear is that it's only in the— aiming for and my fear is that it's only in the west that we osessp— it's only in the west that we obsess about— it's only in the west that we obsess about emissions. it's only in the west that we obsess about emissions . yeah, obsess about emissions. yeah, cnrne-s— obsess about emissions. yeah, cnrne-s nor— obsess about emissions. yeah, china's not worried about it. nussre-s— china's not worried about it. roussre-s nor— china's not worried about it. russia's not worried about it. note— russia's not worried about it. rnure rs— russia's not worried about it. note is nor— russia's not worried about it. india is not that— russia's not worried about it. india is not that worried about it india is not that worried about u peeuse— india is not that worried about it because they're— india is not that worried about it because they're concerned unn— it because they're concerned uurrn grung— it because they're concerned

with giving their people affordable, _ with giving their people affordable, reliable power so rner— affordable, reliable power so rner rney— affordable, reliable power so rner rney sen— affordable, reliable power so that they can lift them out of our— that they can lift them out of our of— that they can lift them out of out or poueny— that they can lift them out of out of poverty and it does. i've got— out of poverty and it does. i've got ro— out of poverty and it does. i've got to sey— out of poverty and it does. i've got to sey, rook,— out of poverty and it does. i've got to say, look, a— out of poverty and it does. i've got to say, look, a lot like a green— got to say, look, a lot like a green uenrry— got to say, look, a lot like a green vanity project on the part of green vanity project on the part or me— green vanity project on the part or rne uuesr— green vanity project on the part or rne uuesr .— green vanity project on the part of the west . and— green vanity project on the part of the west . and i— green vanity project on the part of the west . and i don't believe of the west. and i don't believe rner— of the west. and i don't believe rner ue— of the west. and i don't believe that we should— of the west. and i don't believe that we should continue with green— that we should continue with green uenrry— that we should continue with green vanity projects, particularly- green vanity projects, particularly when they're doing so muon— particularly when they're doing so nuen .— particularly when they're doing so much . they're— particularly when they're doing so much . they're putting so much so much. they're putting so much extre— so much. they're putting so much exrre eosrs— so much. they're putting so much exrre costs on— so much. they're putting so much extra costs on our— so much. they're putting so much extra costs on our economy. let me— extra costs on our economy. let me eso— extra costs on our economy. let me esk you— extra costs on our economy. let me esn you ensur— extra costs on our economy. let me ask you about immigration . me ask you about immigration. obviously, we've got this vow from rishi sunak that's very much reminiscent of your vow to stop the boats. so far, no one's been deported rwanda . do you been deported to rwanda. do you think they're executing this policy adequately? it's not working for them, is it? well again, i think they're on the right track. one of the things rner— right track. one of the things rner rne — right track. one of the things that the howard _ ” g“ t one of the things that the howard government did and that the howard government did not men— that the howard government did end rnen ny— that the howard government did and then my government did was we neu— and then my government did was we had offshore— and then my government did was we had offshore processing. we sent— we had offshore processing. we sent peopue— we had offshore processing. we sent peopre ro— we had offshore processing. we sent people to nauru and to png . i sent people to nauru and to png . r rnrnk— sent people to nauru and to png . r rnrnk eu— sent people to nauru and to png . i think all credit— sent people to nauru and to png . i think all credit to the nnrrsn— . i think all credit to the british government for getting this british government for getting rnrs deer— british government for getting this deal with— british government for getting this deal with rwanda. but it's not muon— this deal with rwanda. but it's not nuen or—

this deal with rwanda. but it's not nuen or e— this deal with rwanda. but it's not much of a deal if you can't eerueuy— not much of a deal if you can't eerueuy ger— not much of a deal if you can't actually get the— not much of a deal if you can't actually get the people to take off actually get the people to take on end — actually get the people to take on not rent — actually get the people to take off and land in— actually get the people to take off and land in rwanda. and so unet— off and land in rwanda. and so uner toes— off and land in rwanda. and so uner ooes ne— off and land in rwanda. and so what does he need to do, be more puuusn— what does he need to do, be more puuusn unn— what does he need to do, be more bullish with the _ what does he need to do, be more bullish with the courts, just pusn— bullish with the courts, just pusnlrnrougn— bullish with the courts, just push .through, the push it through, be robust. the trust— push it through, be robust. the british _ sovereign i british parliament is sovereign and i can't understand why the british parliament hasn't passed, as hasn't passed law passed, as hasn't passed a law removing the jurisdiction of this european tribunal over british policy. look , the other british policy. look, the other rnrng— british policy. look, the other rnrng rner— british policy. look, the other rnrng rner uue— british policy. look, the other thing that we did— british policy. look, the other thing that we did in- l rtg look, the other thing that we did in australia was we turned _ thing that we did in australia was we turned boats around peeuse— was we turned boats around because cause— was we turned boats around because cause in- was we turned boats around because cause in the end , if because cause in the end, if people— because cause in the end, if people sen— because cause in the end, if people ger— because cause in the end, if people can get here, they will be tempted— people can get here, they will be tempted ro— people can get here, they will be tempted to come here. so snouru— be tempted to come here. so should no— be tempted to come here. so should we be— be tempted to come here. so should we be doing- be tempted to come here. so should we be doing that in the channel turning them around? i appreciate that france is a different— appreciate that france is a different country to indonesia to end— different country to indonesia to end we— different country to indonesia to and we were— different country to indonesia to and we were turning boats erouno— to and we were turning boats erouno peek— to and we were turning boats around back to— to and we were turning boats around back to but to be around back to java, but to be nonesr,— around back to java, but to be honest, camilla,— around back to java, but to be honest, camilla, it's frankly an unrnenory— honest, camilla, it's frankly an unfriendly act— honest, camilla, it's frankly an unfriendly act on— honest, camilla, it's frankly an unfriendly act on the part of ne— unfriendly act on the part of rne rrenen— unfriendly act on the part of the french not— unfriendly act on the part of the french not to— unfriendly act on the part of the french not to police these eenps— the french not to police these eenps .— the french not to police these eenps . nerrer— the french not to police these camps . better not to stamp out camps. better not to stamp out the camps. better not to stamp out rne people— camps. better not to stamp out the people smuggling gangs peter.— the people smuggling gangs better. and— the people smuggling gangs better. and if— the people smuggling gangs better. and if the french aren't prepereu— better. and if the french aren't prepereu ro— better. and if the french aren't prepereu to to— better. and if the french aren't prepared to do their job, if the

rrenen— prepared to do their job, if the rrenen ee— prepared to do their job, if the french are to— prepared to do their job, if the french are to prepared at least in pen,— french are to prepared at least in part, facilitate— french are to prepared at least in part, facilitate what at a sufficiently— in part, facilitate what at a sufficiently large scale starts to sufficiently large scale starts ro peeone— sufficiently large scale starts to become e— sufficiently large scale starts to become a peaceful invasion. uueu— to become a peaceful invasion. uueu r— to become a peaceful invasion. uueu r rnrnk— to become a peaceful invasion. well i think britain must be prepereu— well i think britain must be prepereu ro— well i think britain must be prepereu ro sey— well i think britain must be prepared to say, well, they're coming— prepared to say, well, they're eonrng tron — prepared to say, well, they're coming from france. yeah, they neve— coming from france. yeah, they neue no— coming from france. yeah, they neue no ngnr— coming from france. yeah, they have no right to— coming from france. yeah, they have no right to come from rrene— have no right to come from rrene .— have no right to come from rrene . rne— have no right to come from france . the way- have no right to come from france . the way is shut. we send france. the way is shut. we send rnen — france. the way is shut. we send rnen peek. — france. the way is shut. we send them back. okay,— france. the way is shut. we send them back. \rrtrwu them back. okay, now, i'm intrigued that you gave this speech in london earlier this week where you asked what has gone wrong with right gone wrong with centre right politics. is it our leaders or our beliefs or has the world changed? what was your conclusion? well it's a bit of all three, but but i think that there is a way forward. i think we need leaders— there is a way forward. i think we need leaders with- : ithink we need leaders with conviction eno— we need leaders with conviction ene ouege— we need leaders with conviction ene ouege .— we need leaders with conviction and courage . farage we need to and courage. farage we need to eerueuy— and courage. farage we need to actually believe— and courage. farage we need to actually believe in— and courage. farage we need to actually believe in our beliefs as actually believe in our beliefs es opposed— actually believe in our beliefs es opposeo ro— actually believe in our beliefs as opposed to pay them lip service— as opposed to pay them lip service .— as opposed to pay them lip service . and— as opposed to pay them lip service . and the fundamental service. and the fundamental peters— service. and the fundamental beliefs or— service. and the fundamental beliefs of the— service. and the fundamental beliefs of the centre right of politics— beliefs of the centre right of porrrres ee— beliefs of the centre right of politics are freedom , tradition politics are freedom, tradition enu— politics are freedom, tradition ene epoue— politics are freedom, tradition and above all— politics are freedom, tradition and above all else, country. rnese— and above all else, country.

rnese ee— and above all else, country. these are the— and above all else, country. these are the things we stand for.— these are the things we stand for. ereerer— these are the things we stand for. greater freedom, support for. greater freedom, support for tradition— for. greater freedom, support for tradition .— for. greater freedom, support for tradition . but above all for tradition. but above all euse— for tradition. but above all else we— for tradition. but above all else we are the- for tradition. but above all else we are the patriot parties . ano— else we are the patriot parties . one rne— else we are the patriot parties . and the difficulty today is net— . and the difficulty today is rner tusr— . and the difficulty today is rner tusr es— . and the difficulty today is that just as reagan and thatcher were confronting— that just as reagan and thatcher were confronting marxism as represented— were confronting marxism as represented py— were confronting marxism as represented by the old soviet union— represented by the old soviet unron ue— represented by the old soviet union, we are— represented by the old soviet union, we are confronting a kind of union, we are confronting a kind or culture— union, we are confronting a kind of cultural marxism which is renpenr— of cultural marxism which is rampant inside— of cultural marxism which is rampant inside our institutions , means, in a sense , it's a more , means, in a sense, it's a more rnsrorous— , means, in a sense, it's a more rnsrorous enu— , means, in a sense, it's a more rnsrorous ene e— , means, in a sense, it's a more insidious and a more difficult enemy— insidious and a more difficult enemy because— insidious and a more difficult enemy because it's internal. but wherever we see _ enemy because it's internal. but wherever we see this neo—marxism, whether it's in wherever we see this— neo—marxism, whether it's in the eunere — neo—marxism, whether it's in the eunere sun,— neo—marxism, whether it's in the climate cult, the— neo—marxism, whether it's in the climate cult, the gender nururry— climate cult, the gender fluidity, whatever we have to ngnr— fluidity, whatever we have to ngnr ro — fluidity, whatever we have to fight to stand— fluidity, whatever we have to fight to stand against it. tony apport— fight to stand against it. tony abbott, thank— fight to stand against it. tony abbott, thank you _ fight to stand against it. tony abbott, thank you so- fight to stand against it. tony abbott, thank you so much. sorry to wrap it up so quickly. angela rippon's next with portillo rippon's next with the portillo show. tuned .

good morning and welcome to i good morning and welcome to sunuey— . good morning and welcome to sunuey unn— . good morning and welcome to sunday with well,— . good morning and welcome to sunday with well, i'm— good morning and welcome to sunday with well, i'm afraid rr-s— sunday with well, i'm afraid its me— sunday with well, i'm afraid it's me, angela— sunday with well, i'm afraid it's me, angela rippon, who's srenurng— it's me, angela rippon, who's srenurng tn— it's me, angela rippon, who's standing in for— it's me, angela rippon, who's standing in for michael portillo this standing in for michael portillo rnrs week— standing in for michael portillo this week and— standing in for michael portillo this week and what i'd like you to go— this week and what i'd like you to to rs— this week and what i'd like you to do is settle— this week and what i'd like you to do is settle in— this week and what i'd like you to do is settle in for hours to do is settle in for two hours of to do is settle in for two hours or-eurrenr— to do is settle in for two hours of-current affairs- to do is settle in for two hours of current affairs and of arts, current affairs and good— of arts, current affairs and good conversation. and indeed, gorng— good conversation. and indeed, gornglpe— good conversation. and indeed, we're going-be-offl we're going to be starting off unn— we're going to be starting off with-incredible- we're going to be starting off with incredible developments with the incredible developments in nussre— with the incredible developments in roussre enu— with the incredible developments in russia and the— with the incredible developments in russia and the military coup

rner— in russia and the military coup rner tusr— in russia and the military coup that just never— in russia and the military coup that just never was. the head of the that just never was. the head of rne uuegner— that just never was. the head of the wagner mercenaries pulled his the wagner mercenaries pulled nrs fores—