welcome aukus good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this morning. — lovely to have your company this morning. n-s— lovely to have your company this morning. it's been— lovely to have your company this morning. it's been a— lovely to have your company this morning. it's been a very big week— morning. it's been a very big week for— morning. it's been a very big week for the— morning. it's been a very big week for the nhs. we've had the government— week for the nhs. we've had thei government—their government coming up with their workforce— government coming up with their workforce -fittingly- workforce plan, so fittingly i'm going— workforce plan, so fittingly i'm going-speaking- workforce plan, so fittingly i'm going speaking to steve going to be speaking to steve barclay,— going to be speaking to steve barclay, secretary , barclay, the health secretary, just—in- barclay, the health secretary, just—in the- barclay, the health secretary,| just—in the show. just a little later in the show. wm— just a little later in the show. wm those— just a little later in the show. will those nhs— just a little later in the show. will those nhs reforms announced yesterday— will those nhs reforms announced yesterday be— will those nhs reforms announced yesterday be enough? we're yesterday be enough? now we're else— yesterday be enough? now we're also joined— yesterday be enough? now we're also joined by— yesterday be enough? now we're dee joined by d— yesterday be enough? now we're also joined by a lesser spotted lib also joined by a lesser spotted dd dem— also joined by a lesser spotted dd oem .— also joined by a lesser spotted dd oem . dye— also joined by a lesser spotted lib dem . i've got— also joined by a lesser spotted lib dem . i've got to lib dem. i've got to stop ceding— lib dem. i've got to stop calling-that.- lib dem. i've got to stop calling that. they're calling them that. they're eddedy— calling them that. they're enemy—de- calling them that. they're slightly -to gb slightly reluctant to come on gb newe— slightly reluctant to come on gb dew-deve— slightly reluctant to come on gb newe-hdve ded- slightly reluctant to come on gb news, have got layla news, but we have got layla medd— news, but we have got layla morey-dee— news, but we have got layla moran,-the lib - news, but we have got laylai moran,-the lib-mp news, but we have got layla- moran,-the lib-mp and moran, who's the lib dem mp and dee— moran, who's the lib dem mp and dee foreign— moran, who's the lib dem mp and also foreign affairs— also foreign affairs spokesperson . ask her a little spokesperson. ask her a little bit spokesperson. ask her a little did—deme- spokesperson. ask her a little did—dedndldnl bit about what's going on in fede— bit about what's going on in france,_what- bit about what's going on in france,_what thei bit about what's going on in. france,_what the lib france, as well as what the lib deme— france, as well as what the lib meme-de— france, as well as what the lib meme-dd de— france, as well as what the lib dems-to do about- dems hope to do about immigration.- dems hope to do about immigration. do they have any peddeee—del policies? if they do, what are they— policies? if they do, what are dew—dete- policies? if they do, what are they?_into all. policies? if they do, what are| they?_into all of they? so we'll get into all of dead.— they? so we'll get into all of dead dee— they? so we'll get into all of that. also going— they? so we'll get into all of that. also going to be speaking they? so we'll get into all of th.alun so going to be speaking they? so we'll get into all of th.alun cairns.g to be speaking they? so we'll get into all of th.alun cairns. he's)e speaking they? so we'll get into all of th.alun cairns. he's the peaking they? so we'll get into all of th.alun cairns. he's the formeri to alun cairns. he's the former wedde— to alun cairns. he's the former welsh secretary— to alun cairns. he's the former welsh secretary mp. welsh secretary and tory mp. there-e— welsh secretary and tory mp. there-e deed— welsh secretary and tory mp. there's been some pretty nedddve— there's been some pretty negative -the l there's been some pretty- negative -the papers there's been some pretty negatiwe'll the papers there's been some pretty negatiwe'll get the papers there's been some pretty negatiwe'll get tiin papers there's been some pretty negatiwe'll get tiin papeay which we'll get into in just a minde— which we'll get into in just a minute-dee— which we'll get into in just a minute the potential for minute about the potential for dem— minute about the potential for deem—dy- them losing yet more by edeedene— them losing yet more by elections and— them losing yet more by elections and rishi sunak elections and are rishi sunak deliverables_ elections and are rishi sunak deliverables deliverable ? so deliverables deliverable? so wedd— deliverables deliverable? so we-d de— deliverables deliverable? so we'll be asking— deliverables deliverable? so we'll be asking him all about deed.— we'll be asking him all about ded- deed— we'll be asking him all about that. lord carlisle also going to de— that. lord carlisle also going to be joining— that. lord carlisle also going to be joining me— that. lord carlisle also going to be joining me crossbench peer whe— to be joining me crossbench peer who de— to be joining me crossbench peer who de-week— to be joining me crossbench peer who is-week tabled- to be joining me crossbench peer who is week tabled a who is this week tabled a successful— who is this week tabled aj successful—to who is this week tabled a- successful_to the successful amendment to the needed— successful amendment to the illegal migration bill in the

deede- — illegal migration bill in the deede- and— illegal migration bill in the lords. and i'm— illegal migration bill in the lords. and i'm also going to be speaking— lords. and i'm also going to be speaking hardliner speaking to tory hardliner deeded— speaking to tory hardliner daniel kawczynski who's very mudd— daniel kawczynski who's very much dd— daniel kawczynski who's very much in favour— daniel kawczynski who's very much in favour of the rwanda plan-— much in favour of the rwanda dad-deme- much in favour of the rwanda dad-demente- plan. so we're going to be headed— plan. so we're going to be- hearing—against hearing from somebody against and hearing from somebody against end—.— hearing from somebody against end—. edd- hearing from somebody against and_. but let's. and somebody for. but let's go through— and somebody for. but let's go deeded—pedes- and somebody for. but let's go through pages now. through those front pages now. new— through those front pages now. dew-edd— through those front pages now. ded-wide dee- through those front pages now. now with the sunday now let's start with the sunday dededdpd— now let's start with the sunday dededrdph .— now let's start with the sunday telegraph . let's— now let's start with the sunday telegraph . let's hope you can telegraph. let's hope you can ded— telegraph. let's hope you can see that pylons— telegraph. let's hope you can see that pylons to be forced on deede— see that pylons to be forced on pudde de— see that pylons to be forced on pudde dd dd— see that pylons to be forced on public to hit net— see that pylons to be forced on public to hit net zero goal. deede— public to hit net zero goal. that's likely— public to hit net zero goal. that's likely to _ public to hit net zero goal. that's likely to go down very wed— that's likely to go down very wed wide— that's likely to go down very well with telegraph readers not the well with telegraph readers not de sunddy— well with telegraph readers not the sunday times. 10,000 killed by debeebee— the sunday times. 10,000 killed by debeebee db— the sunday times. 10,000 killed by asbestos in schools . it's by asbestos in schools. it's a deed— by asbestos in schools. it's a deed eddy— by asbestos in schools. it's a deed ebey bbd— by asbestos in schools. it's a good story that you'd have bbebdbb— good story that you'd have thought that— good story that you'd have thought that asbestos had been ebbbbed— thought that asbestos had been ebbbbed ebb— thought that asbestos had been ebbbbed ebb ef— thought that asbestos had been stripped out of schools , but no, stripped out of schools, but no, it's stripped out of schools, but no, bde edu— stripped out of schools, but no, bde edd db— stripped out of schools, but no, it's still in the _ stripped out of schools, but no, it's still in the classroom . the it's still in the classroom. the observer— it's still in the classroom. the observer revealed it's still in the classroom. the. observer-revealed how observer goes with revealed how wader— observer goes with revealed how deter debe— observer goes with revealed how water giants recruit— observer goes with revealed how water giants recruit top staff bem— water giants recruit top staff from regulator— water giants recruit top staff from regulator nice work if you deb— from regulator nice work if you deb b.— from regulator nice work if you deb b. be— from regulator nice work if you can get it. the mail on sunday. deeded— can get it. the mail on sunday. abebber dred— can get it. the mail on sunday. another great story here woke med— another great story here woke med bended— another great story here woke met bannau badge tribute to deben— met bannau badge tribute to fallen officers— met bannau badge tribute to fallen officers ._ met bannau badge tribute to fallen officers . are we going to fallen officers. are we going to get debe— fallen officers. are we going to be be be— fallen officers. are we going to deb be be due— fallen officers. are we going to get into in just a— fallen officers. are we going to get into in just a minute. fallen officers. are we going to get into in just a minute . the get into in just a minute. the subddy— get into in just a minute. the sunday express— get into in just a minute. the sunday express wrote depher eeebbe— sunday express wrote depher scheme foiled— sunday express wrote depher scheme foiled ._ sunday express wrote depher scheme foiled . by 1.5 billion of scheme foiled. by 1.5 billion of yob— scheme foiled. by 1.5 billion of your money— scheme foiled. by 1.5 billion of your money. this— scheme foiled. by 1.5 billion of your money. this is about a ebdddee— your money. this is about a charities that— your money. this is about a charities that are helping to ebb— charities that are helping to

ebb beebbe— charities that are helping to stop people from stopping medd— stop people from stopping illegal migrants coming in, bedded— illegal migrants coming in, debbd bedde— illegal migrants coming in, getting loads of our taxpayers edeb— getting loads of our taxpayers edeb .— getting loads of our taxpayers edeb . subddy— getting loads of our taxpayers cash . sunday mirror suspect cash. sunday mirror suspect nnnbe— cash. sunday mirror suspect nnnbe eb— cash. sunday mirror suspect number six was— cash. sunday mirror suspect number six was there. this is an bnbenben— number six was there. this is an interview with— number six was there. this is an interview with dwayne brooks, nbe— interview with dwayne brooks, nbe b— interview with dwayne brooks, nbe b be— interview with dwayne brooks, who is the best— interview with dwayne brooks, who is the best friend of sbebnen— who is the best friend of stephen lawrence, talking about the stephen lawrence, talking about bne-bnd— stephen lawrence, talking about the -that matthew- stephen lawrence, talking about the that matthew was the fact that matthew wright was bene— the fact that matthew wright was bnene end — the fact that matthew wright was bnene and be— the fact that matthew wright was there and the police didn't do dnybnbnd— anything about it. and the sun on anything about it. and the sun en—bbdel on sunday, interesting little deyebebnenb— on sunday, interesting little development in— on sunday, interesting little development in the zac goldsmith ebony— development in the zac goldsmith ebony .— development in the zac goldsmith ebony . zoo,— development in the zac goldsmith ebony . zoo, boob— development in the zac goldsmith story . zac, back to— development in the zac goldsmith story . zac, back to love split . story. zac, back to love split. bbbe. — story. zac, back to love split. bbbe. zoo— story. zac, back to love split. ellie. zac goldsmith apparently debbbnd— ellie. zac goldsmith apparently debbbnd doee— ellie. zac goldsmith apparently getting close to— ellie. zac goldsmith apparently getting close to ellie goulding . bond— getting close to ellie goulding . bodbd yob— getting close to ellie goulding . would you believe it? now for bndb— . would you believe it? now for bndb end— . would you believe it? now for that and other— . would you believe it? now for that and other matters, not that dobe— that and other matters, not that dobnd bo— that and other matters, not that dobnd bo be— that and other matters, not that we're going to be discussing goldsmith's_ we're going to be discussing goldsmith's love life, but bodebne— goldsmith's love life, but madeline-my- goldsmith's love life, but madeline my telegraph madeline grant my telegraph eobeogne— madeline grant my telegraph colleague,-and- madeline grant my telegraph colleague, and columnist, colleague, friend and columnist, dobe— colleague, friend and columnist, done-non— colleague, friend and columnist, done-non bo— colleague, friend and columnist, bone-non bo do— colleague, friend and columnist, joins now to go through the joins me now to go through the bobbe— joins me now to go through the bdbene. bob,— joins me now to go through the papers. now, madeleine, let's bobb— papers. now, madeleine, let's bob dbobb— papers. now, madeleine, let's talk about what— papers. now, madeleine, let's talk about what i've described as talk about what i've described be be— talk about what i've described be be bony— talk about what i've described as the tory takedown story of be— as the tory takedown story of be day,— as the tory takedown story of the day, because— as the tory takedown story of the day, because it's not very good— the day, because it's not very good neddbnd— the day, because it's not very good reading for— the day, because it's not very good reading for the conservatives this morning. my god.— conservatives this morning. my god bebedndbn— conservatives this morning. my god. telegraph front page by our eobbeoene— god. telegraph front page by our colleague, editor— god. telegraph front page by our colleague, editor malik tories on course for— colleague, editor malik tories on course for record defeat in bonnbee— on course for record defeat in dorries by—election i mean this is dorries by—election i mean this be dbeobdbeby— dorries by—election i mean this is absolutely devastating news and— is absolutely devastating news and b— is absolutely devastating news and bb eee— is absolutely devastating news and it seems to— is absolutely devastating news and it seems to be coming very bnbb— and it seems to be coming very bnbb end— and it seems to be coming very thick and fast— and it seems to be coming very thick and fast at— and it seems to be coming very thick and fast at the moment for bend— thick and fast at the moment for

bbenb sundb— thick and fast at the moment for rishi sunak, so. _ thick and fast at the moment for rishi sunak, so. m: b rishi sunak, so. nadine dorries is currently sits on a majority of almost 25,000 and a new opinion poll is showing that based on current trends , that based on current trends, that seat would fall and go to the labour party . and that's labour party. and that's astonishing. they've held it ee— astonishing. they've held it deed. — astonishing. they've held it since 1931. mid— astonishing. they've held it since 1931. mid beds- " g they've held it since 1931. mid beds i mean, i get— since 1931. mid beds i mean, i deb bndb— since 1931. mid beds i mean, i deb bnob bney— since 1931. mid beds i mean, i get that they want to punish the party— get that they want to punish the bony bneybobe— get that they want to punish the bony bneybone by— get that they want to punish the party previous by elections nbdnb— party previous by elections nbdnb nove— party previous by elections might have punished the individual— might have punished the individual ,_ might have punished the individual, i— might have punished the individual, i guess, but dorries been-b— individual, i guess, but dorries been-b done— individual, i guess, but dorries hasn't done that— individual, i guess, but dorries hasn't done that much wrong exeebb— hasn't done that much wrong exeebb bndb— hasn't done that much wrong except that boris— hasn't done that much wrong except that boris johnson bneebeeby. — except that boris johnson enedeeby. ._ except that boris johnson precisely. " c precisely. i mean, it's one thing i think tiverton and honiton and also owen paterson's old seat in shropshire, these things were more understandable because the mp in question was really implicated in this, whereas this seems to be more like a kind of wholesale rejection the conservative rejection of the conservative party by the electorate and also we hear in the times is talking about another mp who possibly faces a by—election, chris pincher. now he's been investigated _ pincher. now he's been investigated by- 37�* bts�*bzzi” now he's been investigated by the commons sbdnddnde— investigated by the commons standards committee. i think if he standards committee. i think if be debe— standards committee. i think if be debe nnnoe— standards committee. i think if he gets more than— standards committee. i think if he gets more than a ten day ban bon— he gets more than a ten day ban from parliament,— he gets more than a ten day ban from parliament, that will also

ebdnb— from parliament, that will also ebdnb d— from parliament, that will also ebdnb o needi— from parliament, that will also spark a recall petition and a by—ebeebbon— spark a recall petition and a by—election that— spark a recall petition and a by—election that again the bone— by—election that again the tories could— by—election that again the tories could face. so we're up to tories could face. so we're up bo bonn— tories could face. so we're up bo bob nnnoe— tories could face. so we're up to four more by— tories could face. so we're up to four more by elections that bney— to four more by elections that bney eobbd— to four more by elections that they could lose. _ to four more by elections that they could lose. yes “bis ' b: they could lose. yes yes. and cbnbe— they could lose. yes yes. and chris pincher, his seat is tamworth and he's sitting on just under 20,000. again, ordinarily these seats would be safe as houses , but it really safe as houses, but it really does seem that the conservative party in a state that party is in such a state that there no such thing safe there is no such thing as a safe seat them anymore . and chris seat for them anymore. and chris pincher, more pincher, of course more personally implicated in what went wrong there. so you would expect be a greater expect there to be a greater kind particular vote kind of anti him particular vote . and all this happens with . and all of this happens with kind great regularity and kind of great regularity and it's very damaging to both to the morale within the conservative party. the mps who are considering whether or not they the next election, they run at the next election, and also to sunak authority as prime but this sort of prime minister but this sort of eode— prime minister but this sort of eode db— prime minister but this sort of exodus, it doesn't— 37” ii " but this sort of exodus, it doesn't really bnebbe— exodus, it doesn't really inspire for inspire confidence, does it, for all inspire confidence, does it, for dblbneee— inspire confidence, does it, for all-these mps— inspire confidence, does it, for all these mps already say, all of these mps to already say, boob— all of these mps to already say, boob b-n— all of these mps to already say, look, i'm stepping— all of these mps to already say, look, i'm stepping down. the eobnenb— look, i'm stepping down. the counter argument is, well, you need— counter argument is, well, you need leebeeb— counter argument is, well, you need select somebody for my need to select somebody for my eeeb— need to select somebody for my eedb-ndy— need to select somebody for my eedb-ndy de— need to select somebody for my seat.-may as well- need to select somebody for my seat. may as well you seat. so i may as well tell you non—bnel now rather than closer to the be— now rather than closer to thej bbne—boddy time i read something today, bedebebne— time i read something today,. madeleine,_will madeleine, about actually, will he madeleine, about actually, will ne-ob— madeleine, about actually, will he-off-election?- madeleine, about actually, will he off election? we keep he put off the election? we keep

on bobbe— he put off the election? we keep on talking about— he put off the election? we keep on talking about will he on talking about 2024. will he been— on talking about 2024. will he been db— on talking about 2024. will he been bb bo— on talking about 2024. will he push it to january— on talking about 2024. will he push it to january 20th, 25? beedbee— push it to january 20th, 25? because the— push it to january 20th, 25? because the economy might have ebdnbby— because the economy might have slightly improved— because the economy might have slightly improved better than it nbdnb— slightly improved better than it nbdnb do— slightly improved better than it nbdnb do nexb— slightly improved better than it might do next autumn? “bis ' b: might do next autumn? yes. and nnobben— might do next autumn? yes. and another reason _ might do next autumn? yes. and another reason that that might be a sensible plan is that this latest setback with rwanda means that you won't the prospect of flights any time soon is now looking more remote , so perhaps looking more remote, so perhaps a time. he might a bit more time. he might at least of maybe least be able to boast of maybe having sent a or two. the having sent a flight or two. the plan is at least vaguely working. we live in hope. yes. somebody— working. we live in hope. yes. somebody-be— working. we live in hope. yes. somebody-be sent- working. we live in hope. yes. somebody-be sent to- q we live in hope. “bib; somebody be sent to rwanda q we live in hope. “bis someb0ipoint be sent to rwanda q we live in hope. “bib; someb0ipoint soon. ent to rwanda q we live in hope. “bis someb0ipoint soon. now) rwanda q we live in hope. “bis someb0ipoint soon. now let'sinda at some point soon. now let's bobb— at some point soon. now let's bob—obn- talk about piers's own benbygobe— talk about piers's own partygate. this is members of the partygate. this is members of be dodee— partygate. this is members of be dodee ob— partygate. this is members of the house of lords who have been— the house of lords who have been-bonbybnd- the house of lords who have been, partying with been, quote, partying with bubbn-e— been, quote, partying with putin's man— been, quote, partying with putin's man in— been, quote, partying with putin's man in london. according to putin's man in london. according bo bne— putin's man in london. according bo bne sunddy— putin's man in london. according to the sunday times. “43?“ to the sunday times. yeah, this is to the sunday times. yeah, this blnenbby— to the sunday times. yeah, this is really cracking is a really cracking story in the sunday times today. so a pair of peers lord balfour and lord have last month lord skidelsky, have last month celebrated russia day, which is the kind of celebration of the founding of russia as a as a nafion founding of russia as a as a nation with the kremlin's ambassador to london, which strikes me as not normal diplomacy. this is not normal engagement with with russian channels. this is a very sort of

specific patriotic russian celebration. and at this this particular event, there was apparently lots of talk of britain overzealously supporting the ukrainians. and so forth. so it's it seems that, you know, i think at times there has been an expectation that people have nothing to do with anything russian, whatever it is. there was a particularly ridiculous example the elizabeth example of the writer elizabeth gilbert. her book was pulled from publishing because it was set in russia . i mean, this set in russia. i mean, this seems yes, this seems a far cry. these are members of the house of these are members of the house ob-bnedeeby. — these are members of the house of- precisely. . seems - of lords. precisely. it seems eonbbebeby— of lords. precisely. it seems completely wrong should completely wrong and should bnobobby— completely wrong and should bnobobby be— completely wrong and should probably be investigated. dnobnen— probably be investigated. another story— probably be investigated. another story that's on on sunday— another story that's on on sunday front— another story that's on on sunday front page, this woke nebd— sunday front page, this woke nebd bond— sunday front page, this woke metal band badge tribute to deben— metal band badge tribute to fallen officers.— metal band badge tribute to fallen officers. so what they do is fallen officers. so what they do be bney— fallen officers. so what they do be bney ween— fallen officers. so what they do is they wear this— fallen officers. so what they do is they wear this badge , which is they wear this badge, which is they wear this badge, which be bo— is they wear this badge, which is to commemorate those who have been— is to commemorate those who have been-b— is to commemorate those who have been-b bne— is to commemorate those who have been -in the line _ is to commemorate those who have been-in the line of- is to commemorate those who have been in the line of duty. been killed in the line of duty. i been killed in the line of duty. bbnbnb— been killed in the line of duty. bbnbnb-bbe— been killed in the line of duty. i think-like a— been killed in the line of duty. i think-like a blue- been killed in the line of duty. i think like a blue union. i think it's like a blue union. bob.— i think it's like a blue union. boob—vee- jack. is that right? yes, exoebby. — jack. is that right? yes,- exactly. _complaining exactly. and who's complaining dbobb— exactly. and who's complaining about madeleine? about this, madeleine? well, bbey— about this, madeleine? well, boy—bobbe- about this, madeleine? well,l they—police have they have been the police have been not to wear been have been told not to wear the thin blue line it's called when they police the pride marches for fear that it might

be prove offensive for lgbt people. why? and i don't know exactly who is demanding this. i can't see in what way. that would weird can't see in what way. that would .weird to- bin?" c " that would weird to suggest that would be weird to suggest that bobb— would be weird to suggest that bond beobbe— would be weird to suggest that lgbt people don't want to commemorate— lgbt people don't want to commemorate fallen police. why nodbdn-b— commemorate fallen police. why nobbdn-b bney— commemorate fallen police. why wouldn't they want— commemorate fallen police. why wouldn't they want do that? wouldn't they want to do that? bind— wouldn't they want to do that? whatlknow_ wouldn't they want to do that? what. know this _ wouldn't they want to do that? what. know this is— wouldn't they want to do that? what. know this is the- wouldn't they want to do that? what. know this is the kind. wouldn't they want to do that? what i know this is the kind of it's a offence taking. it's a hyper offence taking. it's taking offence on behalf of someone even demanded someone who hasn't even demanded it yes, i do wonder when it at all. yes, i do wonder when these stories who these stories happen, who actually complained? oh, it was one person in wigan._ f f “bib:7’ oh, it was one person in wigan. yeah f f “bib:7 oh, it was one person in wigan. yeah and bnen— one person in wigan. yeah and then everything's_ one person in wigan. yeah and then everything's changed. i nndb-e— then everything's changed. i mean what's going on here. yeah. deo— mean what's going on here. yeah. dbeo bne— mean what's going on here. yeah. dbeo bne bobbe— mean what's going on here. yeah. also the police can't— mean what's going on here. yeah. also the police can't get it nonb— also the police can't get it right-because . also the police can't get it. right-because we've right can they? because we've seen them being at pride marches. - know- seen them being at pride marches. know , a policeman marches. you know, a policeman bnoboebnd— marches. you know, a policeman bnoboebnd bo— marches. you know, a policeman bnoboebnd bo nbe— marches. you know, a policeman proposing to his gay lover or , proposing to his gay lover or, or a policeman— proposing to his gay lover or, or a policeman dancing in the ebneeb— or a policeman dancing in the ebneeb end— or a policeman dancing in the street and they— or a policeman dancing in the street and they get it wrong. and— street and they get it wrong. and now— street and they get it wrong. and now people— street and they get it wrong. and now people who are involved in and now people who are involved bn bnde— and now people who are involved bn bnde edy— and now people who are involved bn bnde eoy bndb— and now people who are involved in pride say that they can't neon—bol in pride say that they can't. ween—bo bnd in pride say that they can't- wear_to find it wear their own badges to find it odd.— wear their own badges to find it odd—bl odd. and it's the thing that i beb— odd. and it's the thing that i beb bnd— odd. and it's the thing that i just find really— odd. and it's the thing that i just find really extraordinary dbodb— just find really extraordinary dbobb db— just find really extraordinary dbobb bb be— just find really extraordinary about it is that— just find really extraordinary about it is that the part of the bobb— about it is that the part of the bobnblbne— about it is that the part of the point-the thin— about it is that the part of the point the thin blue is point of the thin blue line is bndb— point of the thin blue line is that commemorate that you commemorate colleagues noe— that you commemorate colleagues nbo-ve—bn- that you commemorate colleagues nbo-ve—bn debbonl who've already fallen in action, and— who've already fallen in action, end-nodd— who've already fallen in action, and-would think- who've already fallen in action, and would think that , you and you would think that, you know,— and you would think that, you knob—bone - and you would think that, you know,-force will- and you would think that, you know, force will no know, the police force will no dobbb— know, the police force will no dobbb-d— know, the police force will no doubt- a vast _ know, the police force will no doubt a vast range of doubt have a vast range of beobbe— doubt have a vast range of beobbe nbbb— doubt have a vast range of people with different political

bebebe— - people with different political bebebe— bdbl people with different political. beliefs_ but one beliefs who work in it. but one bbbnd— beliefs who work in it. but one thing everyone could thing almost everyone could agree on is the need to commemorate fellow officers who've , serving who've died serving, serving their cause and but yet somehow this has been deemed potentially offensive as well. not necessarily not necessarily divisive in my offensive as well. not- necessarily divisive in my mind. deb-e— necessarily divisive in my mind. beb-e bobb— necessarily divisive in my mind. let's talk about— necessarily divisive in my mind. let's talk about a— necessarily divisive in my mind. let's talk about a revolving doon— let's talk about a revolving doon ebony. — let's talk about a revolving doon ebony. be— let's talk about a revolving door story. we see this quite a toe,— door story. we see this quite a bob, don-b— door story. we see this quite a bob, don-b we— door story. we see this quite a lot, don't we, with— door story. we see this quite a lot, don't we, with people jumping— lot, don't we, with people iwnbbnd bon — lot, don't we, with people jumping from governmental bodies and dwdndoe— jumping from governmental bodies and dwdndoe bnbo— jumping from governmental bodies and quangos into different influential— and quangos into different influential and often high paid noeeb— influential and often high paid nobee wbdb-e— influential and often high paid roles. what's going on with the wdben— roles. what's going on with the wdben dbdnbee— roles. what's going on with the water giants? where are they neenwbbbnd— water giants? where are they recruiting their— water giants? where are they recruiting their top staff from 7 recruiting their top staff from e webb— recruiting their top staff from e web. we— recruiting their top staff from ? well, the observer- recruiting their top staff from ? well, the observer observer, this is yes, they've they've revealed that two thirds of england's biggest water companies are employing key executives who specifically were previously worked at the water regulator or kwasi . yes. how regulator or kwasi. yes. how cosy. and as you say, it's a very common trend. there's this kind of revolving door, this merry go round linking quangos, regulators and, you know, the same people , all in a very kind same people, all in a very kind of chummy way , moving from job of chummy way, moving from job to job and presumably have been picked partly because they may

have excellent contacts , but have excellent contacts, but also because it will help these companies navigate what may be a complex regulatory environment. but you say, it feels very but as you say, it feels very incestuous. it also be worried dbowb— incestuous. it also be worried about groupthink._ incestuous. it also be worried about groupthink. i- f it also be worried about groupthink. i mean, the wdben— about groupthink. i mean, the| wdben—been water companies haven't been bebdwnd— water companies haven't beenj bebdwnd—vow behaving very well lately. you know— behaving very well lately. you. know—bdwe know, a number of bosses have bad— know, a number of bosses have bod-boob— know, a number of bosses have had-back their- know, a number of bosses have had back their bonuses. had to give back their bonuses. been. — had to give back their bonuses. been. -iweb— had to give back their bonuses. been-beb eon- had to give back their bonuses. yeah. _just sort of- had to give back their bonuses. yeah. just sort of think had to give back their bonuses. yeah maybe just sort of think had to give back their bonuses. yeah maybe we ust sort of think had to give back their bonuses. yeah maybe we ust scto of think had to give back their bonuses. yeah maybe we ust scto have nk had to give back their bonuses. yeah maybe we ust scto have some like, maybe we need to have some bbbnbnd—be— like, maybe we need to have some thinking—be more- thinking that might be more representative— thinking that might be more representative of people who pay wdben—vee- water bills rather than. yes bnbenndb— water bills rather than. yes internal merry— water bills rather than. yes internal merry round. oh, internal merry go round. oh, webb— internal merry go round. oh, webb .— internal merry go round. oh, webb , bbbe— internal merry go round. oh, well , this is— internal merry go round. oh, well , this is this— internal merry go round. oh, well , this is this is not going well, this is this is not going away— well, this is this is not going dwdylwo,— well, this is this is not going dwdylwolbnow. - well, this is this is not going away no, know. we well, this is this is not going- awayino,iknow. _we hope away. no, i know. well, we hope to away. no, i know. well, we hope bo-d— away. no, i know. well, we hope one wdben— away. no, i know. well, we hope to-a water boss— away. no, i know. well, we hope to-a water boss on- away. no, i know. well, we hope to a water boss on at some to get a water boss on at some bobb— to get a water boss on at some bobnb. we— to get a water boss on at some bobnb. we bowe— to get a water boss on at some point. we have tried funnily point. we have tried and funnily enowdb—d- point. we have tried and funnily enowdb—d bbb- enough, they're being a bit shy dbowb— enough, they're being a bit shy dbowb-so— enough, they're being a bit shy about-so.live- enough, they're being a bit shy about so live hope about their. so we live in hope now:— about their. so we live in hope now—nwebi now, i know you're very much a enebeb— now, i know you're very much a enebeb-vee— now, i know you're very much a enbbeb-bee b— now, i know you're very much a cricket-yes i don't- now, i know you're very much a cricket yes i don't want cricket woman. yes i don't want to cricket woman. yes i don't want bo neeeeednbby— cricket woman. yes i don't want to necessarily about the to necessarily talk about the debee— to necessarily talk about the debee-now. — to necessarily talk about the ashes - now. let's - to necessarily talk about the ashes now. let's talk ashes right now. let's talk dbowb— ashes right now. let's talk dbowb beb— ashes right now. let's talk about just because the bazball doeen-b— about just because the bazball doesn't—working. about just because the bazball doesn't—working ,i doesn't seem to be working, dbbbowdb— doesn't seem to be working, although-call- doesn't seem to be working, although call this although i like to call this ebow— although i like to call this show that show political bazball and that doee— show political bazball and that doee-be— show political bazball and that doee-be-bwbl does seem to be working. but bedebebne— does seem to be working. but madeleine, let's— does seem to be working. but madeleine, let's talk about bennbe. — madeleine, let's talk about tennis. tennis,— madeleine, let's talk about tennis. tennis, new balls, bbedee.— tennis. tennis, new balls,- please._tomorrow . now, please. wimbledon tomorrow. now, why please. wimbledon tomorrow. now, wby-dbb— please. wimbledon tomorrow. now, wby-dbb ob— please. wimbledon tomorrow. now, wby-dbb of be— please. wimbledon tomorrow. now, why all of the newspapers why are all of the newspapers boewebnd— why are all of the newspapers boewebnd on— why are all of the newspapers focusing on katie— why are all of the newspapers focusing on katie boulter, apart bon— focusing on katie boulter, apart bon bbe— focusing on katie boulter, apart bon bbe boob— focusing on katie boulter, apart from the fact that— focusing on katie boulter, apart from the fact that she is, of course, very attractive and a dondeowe— course, very attractive and a dondeowe yownd— course, very attractive and a gorgeous young woman? indeed. and ebe-e— gorgeous young woman? indeed. and ebe-e on— gorgeous young woman? indeed. and she's on page three of the express across all of the

express and across all of the other newspapers. astonishing well, the british well, well, she is the british number know, if number one. and, you know, if it's potentially looking like a good year for us at wimbledon, you know , we've got cameron, you know, we've got cameron, norrie , our male number one, got norrie, our male number one, got to the semi—finals last year. i mean, he wasn't playing fantastically well at queen's. i think , although he did get to think, although he did get to the quarterfinal. so think, although he did get to the quarterfinal . so there was the quarterfinal. so there was there was a chance there . and there was a chance there. and of course, is in course, andy murray is still in it be playing his it and he will be playing his opening round as against another brit, peniston . yes. now brit, ryan peniston. yes. now andy i read , brit, ryan peniston. yes. now andy-i read , had- brit, ryan peniston. yes. now. andy-i read , had beaten andy murray, i read, had beaten woodb— andy murray, i read, had beaten novak djokovic_ andy murray, i read, had beaten novak djokovic in— andy murray, i read, had beaten novak djokovic in a kind of bndebbee— novak djokovic in a kind of bnoebbee eeb— novak djokovic in a kind of bnoebbee eeb .— novak djokovic in a kind of practise set , which is novak djokovic in a kind of practise set, which is obviously a practise set, which is obviously d dood— practise set, which is obviously o good ebon— practise set, which is obviously o good ebgn .— practise set, which is obviously o good ebgn . vee— practise set, which is obviously a good sign . yes, it's the ten a good sign. yes, it's the ten yedn— a good sign. yes, it's the ten year anniversary— a good sign. yes, it's the ten year anniversary this year of bbn— year anniversary this year of bbn oen— year anniversary this year of him women winning wimbledon. yes we — him women winning wimbledon. yes we and— him women winning wimbledon. yes 2013. and there's— him women winning wimbledon. yes 2013. and there's a— him women winning wimbledon. yes 2013. and there's a great piece in 2013. and there's a great piece bn bbe— 2013. and there's a great piece in the telegraph— 2013. and there's a great piece in the telegraph actually, about it in the telegraph actually, about bb ebb— in the telegraph actually, about bb ebb b— in the telegraph actually, about bb ebb bn bbe— in the telegraph actually, about it all in the background to it ebb.— it all in the background to it ebb-lnedn— it all in the background to it all.imean, are— it all in the background to it all. mean, are we holding on all. i mean, are we holding on for all. i mean, are we holding on bon ded— all. i mean, are we holding on for dear life— all. i mean, are we holding on for dear life to— all. i mean, are we holding on for dear life to andy murray wbbb — for dear life to andy murray wbbb nbe— for dear life to andy murray with his bionic— for dear life to andy murray with his bionic hip and actually , bb-e— with his bionic hip and actually , bb-e weny— with his bionic hip and actually , bb-e weny, weny— with his bionic hip and actually , it's very, very hard for him to , it's very, very hard for him bo bbnd— , it's very, very hard for him to kind-recapture- , it's very, very hard for him to kind recapture the glory to kind of recapture the glory of to kind of recapture the glory ob-dgo.— to kind of recapture the glory ob-dgo-bbbel of ten years ago. well this has been— of ten years ago. well this has been-bbbe— of ten years ago. well this has been _this .the- of ten years ago. well this has been this the story been i mean, this is the story of bennbe. — been i mean, this is the story of tennis. the— been i mean, this is the story of tennis. the last- been i mean, this is the story of tennis. g of tennis. the last time that someone nadal, someone who was not nadal, federer , djokovic or murray won

federer, djokovic or murray won wimbledon was 2002. lleyton hewitt . can you believe that? hewitt. can you believe that? and think this this this is and i think this this this is potentially what with alvarez, the fantastic up and coming spanish player who won queen's won queen's i mean, it does feel like this may be the time that the being but the baton is being passed. but andy the only andy murray is still the only person who's ever beaten novak djokovic in a wimbledon final. yeah, in history. djokovic in a wimbledon final. yeah, in history . we need to yeah, in history. we need to bobd— yeah, in history. we need to bobd on— yeah, in history. we need to bobd on bo— yeah, in history. we need to hold on to that.— yeah, in history. we need to hold on to that. your life. just ebob— hold on to that. your life. just ebob ob— hold on to that. your life. just stop oil threatening to get bbeb— their orange powder out. madeleine,— their orange powder out. madeleine, just stop oil. \bb:::b madeleine, just stop oil. no dowbb— madeleine, just stop oil. no doubt, though,— madeleine, just stop oil. no doubt, though, because i think that we had jonny bairstow. i was on wednesday was actually there on wednesday the well was the ashes like then. well i was sadly the end to have sadly not the right end to have a glimpse of but a really good glimpse of it, but he sack of he grabbed him like a sack of potatoes ran away with potatoes and just ran away with him cheered him and everyone cheered all hell i know it hell and which which i know it was heroic it was. it was was a heroic. it was. it was much more exciting or much less disappointing than the cricket that that but but that we saw that day. but but with tennis, you wonder if there might politeness might be a bit more politeness and a more of and kind of it's a bit more of a sort of effete sort of game. i know. they take to know. i think if they take to cenbne— know. i think if they take to. centre _ pelted. know. i think if they take to. cthink_pelted. know. i think if they take to. cthink it's—pelted. know. i think if they take to. cthink it's all-pelted. know. i think if they take to cthink it's all berries pelted. know. i think if they take to cthink it's all berries and lted. i think it's all berries andi cream. _depends i think it's all berries and- cream. _depends who's cream. i think it depends who's on it's nick hewer, i on court. if it's nick hewer, i don't they have much

don't think they have much chance. to see chance. yeah would like to see bbn— chance. yeah would like to see bbn-agend— chance. yeah would like to see him-against. just- chance. yeah would like to see him-against. just stop. cf “43?" would like to see him against. just stop oil him go up against. just stop oil it. madeleine.— him go up against. just stop oil it. madeleine. thank very it. madeleine. thank you very neon—bobnbng- much indeed for joining me this nonnbng. — morning. been lovely. thank you, combo.— morning. been lovely. thank you, combo—oven- morning. been lovely. thank you, camilla. _over to i camilla. now let's get over to be— camilla. now let's get over to bbe-bdneb- camilla. now let's get over to the-panel, which- the people's panel, which fortuitously— the people's panel, which fortuitously is— the people's panel, which fortuitously is in richmond upon bbdnee— fortuitously is in richmond upon bbdnee wbene— fortuitously is in richmond upon thames, where zac goldsmith, of eonneeleboeeby— thames, where zac goldsmith, of course, closely associated, course, is closely associated, bub— course, is closely associated, bub-ebebbed- course, is closely associated, but stepped down. but he's now stepped down. cobbenne— but he's now stepped down. catherine forster is there. and gagging,— catherine forster is there. and catherine, i've— catherine forster is there. and catherine, i've got steve bonebdy— catherine, i've got steve bonebdylbo— catherine, i've got steve barclay to talk about the barclay on to talk about the bb— barclay on to talk about the we wbbb— barclay on to talk about the nhs. what questions do the beobbe-e— nhs. what questions do the people's panellists have my people's panellists have for my gweebe— people's panellists have for my gweebe boddy— people's panellists have for my gweebebodoye — people's panellists have for my guests today ? “bis gin guests today? yes, we've got lots of questions and we're here in dean patisserie in the very lovely rich almond upon thames today , of course, lord zac today, of course, lord zac goldsmith used to be the constituency mp here before he lost his seat and was put in the house of lords and generally the consensusis house of lords and generally the consensus is he was a good mp . consensus is he was a good mp. let's talk first to philip. philip you're a barrister. what did you make of him and his role with the environment and his resignation ? well, zac was resignation? well, zac was a beb— resignation? well, zac was a bbeb ebnee— ”bib; g“eb b::b“7 well, zac was a first class constituency mp here in first class constituency mp here bn bbebnond— first class constituency mp here bn bbebnond .— first class constituency mp here in richmond . we're very sad that in richmond. we're very sad that he in richmond. we're very sad that be be— in richmond. we're very sad that be boeb nbe— in richmond. we're very sad that he lost his seat— in richmond. we're very sad that he lost his seat to— in richmond. we're very sad that he lost his seat to the liberal

benoendbe— he lost his seat to the liberal benoendbe .— he lost his seat to the liberal democrats . they— he lost his seat to the liberal democrats . they are basically an democrats. they are basically an bnebene— democrats. they are basically an irrelevance. they— democrats. they are basically an irrelevance. they have shoddy dedbe— irrelevance. they have shoddy dedbe wbbb— irrelevance. they have shoddy deals with the _ irrelevance. they have shoddy deals with the green party. zac of deals with the green party. zac ob be— deals with the green party. zac of course, is much— deals with the green party. zac of course, is much more , much of course, is much more, much ebnongen— of course, is much more, much ebnongen wben— of course, is much more, much stronger when it— of course, is much more, much stronger when it comes to green bebe— stronger when it comes to green issues. he's been— stronger when it comes to green issues. he's been a— stronger when it comes to green issues. he's been a very good nbnbeben— issues. he's been a very good nbnbeben bn— issues. he's been a very good minister in the— issues. he's been a very good minister in the foreign office for minister in the foreign office bon bne— minister in the foreign office bon bbe debe— minister in the foreign office for the asia pacific rim area. bbn— for the asia pacific rim area. bbn weny— for the asia pacific rim area. bbn weny edd— for the asia pacific rim area. i'm very sad that— for the asia pacific rim area. i'm very sad that he's gone, but wnbonbwndbe— i'm very sad that he's gone, but unfortunate shortly. if you are a unfortunate shortly. if you are e eenwng— unfortunate shortly. if you are a serving minister in a goennenb- a serving minister in a government, there is collective neebonebbbbbby— government, there is collective responsibility and _ government, there is collective responsibility and you must toe the responsibility and you must toe bbe bbne. — responsibility and you must toe bbe be be— responsibility and you must toe the line. he didn't— responsibility and you must toe the line. he didn't and he has to the line. he didn't and he has bo go.— the line. he didn't and he has bo go. be— the line. he didn't and he has bo go. be nob— the line. he didn't and he has to go. it's not the— the line. he didn't and he has to go. it's not the end of him by any— to go. it's not the end of him by any nnedne— to go. it's not the end of him by any means. good i say. thank you— by any means. good i say. thank you end— by any means. good i say. thank you and beds— by any means. good i say. thank you and let's talk now to simon. simon, thank you for joining you and let's talk now to simon. simon, thank you forjoining us simon, thank you for joining us today. you are a retired plant scientist. you worked at the very famous kew gardens just down the road for 40 years. and your son is a doctor. he works in new zealand talking about this long term nhs workforce plan. what do you make of it? and the nhs in general? well, the first thing i'd say- and the nhs in general? well, the first thing i'd say is- “z \b “ 37 well, the first thing i'd say is my son moved to— the first thing i'd say is my son moved to new zealand. not

neeeeednby— son moved to new zealand. not necessarily because of the nhs , necessarily because of the nhs, dbbbowgb— necessarily because of the nhs, dbbbowgb be— necessarily because of the nhs, although he would say that iwnbon— although he would say that junior doctors— although he would say that junior doctors are not very well bobd— junior doctors are not very well odd and— junior doctors are not very well odd and be— junior doctors are not very well paid and he would say that the ongdnbedbbon— paid and he would say that the organisation is— paid and he would say that the organisation is not so good. i bbbnb— organisation is not so good. i bbbnb bbbe— organisation is not so good. i think this plan— organisation is not so good. i think this plan does set out eonebbbng— think this plan does set out something which i think will be a something which i think will be e gnedb— something which i think will be a great benefit— something which i think will be a great benefit to— something which i think will be a great benefit to the, to the wbobe — a great benefit to the, to the wbobe ob— a great benefit to the, to the whole of the _ a great benefit to the, to the whole of the nhs . however, it's whole of the nhs. however, it's a whole of the nhs. however, it's d bbbbbe— whole of the nhs. however, it's d bbbbbe boo— whole of the nhs. however, it's a little too late.— whole of the nhs. however, it's a little too late. you know, bb-e— a little too late. you know, bbbe gobng— a little too late. you know, bbbe gobng bo— a little too late. you know, it's going to take maybe ten, 15 yedne— it's going to take maybe ten, 15 yedne bebone— it's going to take maybe ten, 15 years before we— it's going to take maybe ten, 15 years before we even see any eon— years before we even see any eonb ob— years before we even see any sort of improvement and i think deo— sort of improvement and i think dbeo bneb— sort of improvement and i think dbeo bbdb bne— sort of improvement and i think also that the civil— sort of improvement and i think also that the civil servants in bne— also that the civil servants in bbe bedbbb— also that the civil servants in the health service in in the bedbbb— the health service in in the health department should debwdbby— health department should debwobby geb— health department should actually get out and work and wonk— actually get out and work and wonb on— actually get out and work and wonb on bne— actually get out and work and work on the shop— actually get out and work and work on the shop floor. look at bne— work on the shop floor. look at bbe wbs— work on the shop floor. look at the nhs trusts— work on the shop floor. look at the nhs trusts that work and boob— the nhs trusts that work and boob db— the nhs trusts that work and look at those— the nhs trusts that work and look at those that don't work . look at those that don't work. try look at those that don't work. by end— look at those that don't work. by and find— look at those that don't work. try and find out— look at those that don't work. try and find out what is the try and— try and find out what is the try end end— try and find out what is the try and bnd onb— try and find out what is the try and find out what— try and find out what is the try and find out what is the best bbbng— and find out what is the best bbbng bo— and find out what is the best bbbng bo do— and find out what is the best thing to do when— and find out what is the best thing to do when you're ongdnbebng— thing to do when you're organising the nhs. it's a huge ongonbeobbon— organising the nhs. it's a huge organisation. goodness knows how the organisation. goodness knows how bbe nbnbeben— organisation. goodness knows how the minister works— organisation. goodness knows how the minister works with it. i don-b— the minister works with it. i don-b. — the minister works with it. i don-b. webb— the minister works with it. i don't . well we've- the minister works with it. i don't . bobbin gin the minister works with it. i don't . gin don't. well we've got health secretary steve barclay on shortly. you've got a very specific question for him, haven't you? what is it? well,

why is why why is this- “ g 7 �*bfdfleb 7 well, why is why why is this why “ g 7 �*eybb“e 7 well, why is why why is this why has bbb— why is why why is this why has bbbe bnogndn — why is why why is this why has this program been— why is why why is this why has this program been developed so bebee — this program been developed so bdbee vod— this program been developed so late? you know,— this program been developed so late? you know, i— this program been developed so late? /:::. “ this program been developed so late? 4:3. ’“ e this program been developed so late? /:::. g late? you know, i mean, it is almost too late for the for the national health service, really. you know, we need something which relatively quick fix. thank you. and sorry , rhiannon thank you. and sorry, rhiannon yonee— thank you. and sorry, rhiannon bone wbbb— thank you. and sorry, rhiannon jones, which is— thank you. and sorry, rhiannon jones, which is also— thank you. and sorry, rhiannon jones, which is also in- and sorry, rhiannon jones, which is also in this constituency— jones, which is also in this constituency .— jones, which is also in this constituency . you worked in hong constituency. you worked in hong bong— constituency. you worked in hong kong bon— constituency. you worked in hong bong bon yee— constituency. you worked in hong kong for years. we've been bdbbbng— kong for years. we've been talking about— kong for years. we've been talking about rwanda . do you talking about rwanda. do you bbbnb— talking about rwanda. do you bbbnb bb— talking about rwanda. do you think it will— talking about rwanda. do you think it will work? and do you bbbnb— think it will work? and do you bbbnb bb— think it will work? and do you think it will— think it will work? and do you think it will happen ? g think it will happen? i think it wbbb— think it will happen? i think it wbbb wonk— think it will happen? i think it will work and i think it has to be given the opportunity motty to be tried . the french seem to be tried. the french seem incapable of turning the boats back or even smashing the people smuggling ring. so we have to do something and process them offshore. i think is an excellent idea and i think it has to be tried. and i think it will deter the boats crossing. and philip ba.2 you quickly, neody— and philip ba.2 you quickly, we're nearly out— and philip ba.2 you quickly, we're nearly out of time. i'm dbdd— we're nearly out of time. i'm dbdd. and— we're nearly out of time. i'm afraid. and as— we're nearly out of time. i'm afraid. and as a— we're nearly out of time. i'm afraid. and as a practising bonnbeben— afraid. and as a practising barrister, you— afraid. and as a practising barrister, you take a bit of a dbbenenb— barrister, you take a bit of a different view— barrister, you take a bit of a different view on— barrister, you take a bit of a different view on rwanda. don't

you,— different view on rwanda. don't you, and— different view on rwanda. don't you, and whether— different view on rwanda. don't you, and whether it would in boeb— you, and whether it would in boeb wob— you, and whether it would in boeb wonb de— you, and whether it would in fact work as a— you, and whether it would in fact work as a deterrent if and wben— fact work as a deterrent if and wben bne— fact work as a deterrent if and when the planes— fact work as a deterrent if and when the planes ever take off. i when the planes ever take off. b do— when the planes ever take off. b do bowe— when the planes ever take off. b do be e— when the planes ever take off. i do have a different— when the planes ever take off. i do have a different view- when the planes ever take off. i do have a different view and i think i'm one of many members of the bar who've practised in the immigration tribunal. i've had many clients who have sought asylum. my concern is i do not believe that we will see the rwanda policy actually implemented. i believe that by the time that the decision is are made, we will have a general election and we'll have to see what happens. i'm very uncomfortable as many members of the about actual the bar are, about the actual policy itself. i don't believe it's a deterrent. i still think the boats will come. rishi is very brave to try this on and i'm sure he will win eventually . but it's a long term problem , . but it's a long term problem, certainly a huge problem with no easy answers at the moment. so that's it from us, camilla in- that's it from us, camilla in bbbnond— that's it from us, camilla in richmond. we— that's it from us, camilla in richmond. we look forward to eeebng— richmond. we look forward to eeebng wbob— richmond. we look forward to seeing what all— richmond. we look forward to seeing what all the politicians bowe— seeing what all the politicians bdwe bo— seeing what all the politicians bdwe bo edy— seeing what all the politicians have to say and— seeing what all the politicians have to say and we'll be back to you— have to say and we'll be back to you n— have to say and we'll be back to you n bbb— have to say and we'll be back to you b bbb bdben— have to say and we'll be back to you a bit later in— have to say and we'll be back to you a bit later in the program. bbdnbe— you a bit later in the program. bbdnbe weny— you a bit later in the program. thanks very much— you a bit later in the program.

thanks very much indeed for bneb— thanks very much indeed for that, catherine. _ thanks very much indeed for that, catherine. ' “b: 013“ g that, catherine. and don't forget, if want to apply for that, catherine. and don't forg people's want to apply for that, catherine. and don't forg people's panel, to apply for that, catherine. and don't forg people's panel, to ato ly for the people's panel, go to gb news forward slash panel. news .com forward slash panel. very remember. now alun very easy to remember. now alun cairns joins me now. he's the former he's former wales secretary. he's the mp of glamorgan . mp for the vale of glamorgan. he's top tory, my top tory he's a top tory, my top tory guest. alan, lovely to see you. thank very much for the thank you very much for the bnwbdbbon. — thank you very much for the invitation. .it's-al thank you very much for the. invitation. .it's-a good invitation. now it's not a good weekend for stories about the tories . rishi sunak deliverables tories. rishi sunak deliverables . let's just, just quickly go through them just so the audience aware of what he's audience is aware of what he's pledged . so talked about pledged. so he's talked about stopping actually stopping the boats, but actually the stopped. the boats haven't been stopped. he's halving he's talked about halving inflation. around inflation. it's still around nearly 9. he's talked about reducing nhs waiting lists. they currently stand at 7.4 million. he's talked about growing the economy. but we've got the bank of england now talking about perhaps needing a recession to bnng perhaps needing a recession to bring inflation down. and he's talked about debt falling, but it's now 100% of gdp for the first time since the 1960s. so he can't deliver any of these deliverables. and if that's the case, by the end of the year, it might sound dramatic, but might he consider his he need to consider his position? well, absolutely not

on bne— position? well, absolutely not on bbe boeb— position? well, absolutely not on the last point.— position? well, absolutely not on the last point. so- g b::b“7 well, absolutely not on the last point. so he said at bne— on the last point. so he said at bbe—bbeee- on the last point. so he said at the—these policies. the outset that these policies gobng— the outset that these policies gobng bo— the outset that these policies were going to be— the outset that these policies were going to be challenging to debben— were going to be challenging to debbenlbddny— were going to be challenging to deliverimany-said,- were going to be challenging to deliver many said, well, deliver. many people said, well, bbeee—bdbben- these are going to happen automatically. _ these are going to happen automatically. and automatically. that and the ebdbe— automatically. that and the ebdbe-ebow- automatically. that and the state - show that l automatically. that and the. state - show that that state of events show that that bbey— state of events show that that bbey-bbdb- state of events show that that bbey-bbdb on- state of events show that that they that an awful state of events show that that. they-that an awful lot they won't and that an awful lot of ebon— they won't and that an awful lot of ebonb end— they won't and that an awful lot of effort and focus— they won't and that an awful lot of effort and focus to be of effort and focus needs to be on-bwb— of effort and focus needs to be on-bwb b— of effort and focus needs to be on-but i could- of effort and focus needs to be on-but i could go- of effort and focus needs to be on but i could go through on them. but i could go through bben— on them. but i could go through bben one— on them. but i could go through bben by— on them. but i could go through them one by one— on them. but i could go through them one by one and demonstrate them one by one and demonstrate bbe—ndde- the progress that's been made and— the progress that's been made and-judgement. - the progress that's been made- and-judgement. _reckon and the judgement. do you reckon bobb— and the judgement. do you reckon he'll simple he'll let's keep it simple because go into the because we could go into the granular at end the day, granular at the end of the day, these his deliverables, these are his deliverables, these are his deliverables, these are his deliverables, these are what he thinks he can deliver the of year . deliver by the end of the year. how that he's how confident are you that he's going to tick all five boxes? well , very that well, i'm very confident that gobng— well, i'm very confident that gobng bo— well, i'm very confident that we're going to make really good bnogneee— we're going to make really good progress inflation. g progress on inflation. it's edu— progress on inflation. it's ebbbb 8.7.— progress on inflation. it's still 8.7. well,— progress on inflation. it's still 8.7. well, let's- progress on inflation. it's still 8.7. well, let's see what happens, because you remember growing just growing the economy just only a couple months ago. we growing the economy just only a couple months ago . we were couple of months ago. we were predicted-recession. couple of months ago. we were predicted-recession .i predicted to go into recession. bbe—neweedl predicted to go into recession.- the_revised that the economists have revised that ee— the economists have revised that bbn— the economists have revised that bbn bneb— the economists have revised that since i'm much more optimistic, bbe— since i'm much more optimistic, b-we been— since i'm much more optimistic, i've been talking— since i'm much more optimistic, i've been talking about forcing us i've been talking about forcing we bnbo— i've been talking about forcing us into recession,— i've been talking about forcing us into recession, which ebnbee. — strikes. well, that's economically . well, economically illiterate. well, that's in order to .on - economically illiterate. well, that's in order to .on top. economically illiterate. well,i that's in order to .on top of that's in order to get on top of bnbbdbbon— that's in order to get on top of inflation,-the- that's in order to get on top of inflation, the target. inflation, which is the target. bbb— inflation, which is the target. bbb-bebe- inflation, which is the target. bbb-beb-e-wbl but let's let's let's pick up bebe— but let's let's let's pick up beb-e-webb- but let's let's let's pick up let's well there's but let's let's let's pick up. let's-well there's two let's pick up. well there's two onedeleowbd— let's pick up. well there's two areasicould pick— let's pick up. well there's two areas could pick up the there. areas i could pick up the there. bebe— areas i could pick up the there. beb-e-dbowb— areas i could pick up the there. let's-about-nhs- areas i could pick up the there. let's-about-nhs .- areas i could pick up the there. let's about nhs . and let's talk about the nhs. and

i'd let's talk about the nhs. and b-d bdbbbby— let's talk about the nhs. and i'd happily reflect on what's bobbenbng— i'd happily reflect on what's happening wales terms of happening in wales in terms of the happening in wales in terms of bbe—we- happening in wales in terms of bbe—we geb. i happening in wales in terms ofi bbe—we geb. bbb the challenges that we get. but deo— the challenges that we get. but dbeo bobb— the challenges that we get. but also talk about— the challenges that we get. but also talk about rwanda. we also talk about rwanda. so we know— also talk about rwanda. so we bnw-ne— also talk about rwanda. so we know-are lefty- know that there are lefty bdwyene— know that there are lefty- bdwyene—gnowbe know that there are lefty- lawyers_groups that know that there are lefty- law doing—groups that know that there are lefty lawdoing everything groups that know that there are lefty law doing everything to;roups that know that there are lefty law doing everything to stop s that know that there are lefty law doing everything to stop the at are doing everything to stop the bnbne— are doing everything to stop the bnbne-bbdn- are doing everything to stop the bnbne-bbdn bo- are doing everything to stop the prime plan to deport prime minister's plan to deport bedde— prime minister's plan to deport beobbe, bo— prime minister's plan to deport people, to rwanda. is it lawyers 7 people, to rwanda. is it lawyers e somebody— people, to rwanda. is it lawyers ? somebody on— people, to rwanda. is it lawyers ? somebody on the- people, to rwanda. is it lawyers ? somebody on the people's panel is just a barrister and says he's just not sure about the legality of the plan and the plan isn't working . i get the plan isn't working. i get the whole idea that there aren't alternative solutions, but he's talking about stopping the boats. let's let's put a time frame on it. when is an illegal immigrant going to be deported to rwanda. alan just give me a time. well, it's lefty lawyers bneb— time. well, it's lefty lawyers bbdb bowe— g well, it's lefty lawyers that have effectively stopped bneb— that have effectively stopped bbdb eo— that have effectively stopped bbdb eo bon- — that have effectively stopped that so far. so— that have effectively stopped that so far. so but we know from the that so far. so but we know from bbe cowb— that so far. so but we know from the court judgement week the court judgement this week bneb— the court judgement this week bob—bnebee- that the lord chief justice dgneed— that the lord chief justice agreed .there's- agreed that there's contradictions. a tory, contradictions. was a tory, right. so he's a tory barrister saying this the right saying this isn't the right legal but , but saying this isn't the right legal but, but the legal approach, but, but the audience needs know when are audience needs to know when are people going to start being deported to rwanda. well, the point i'm making— deported to rwanda. well, the point i'm making is— 3: 7: well, the point i'm making is being made in point i'm making is being made bn—beedweel in the legal process because of bebby—dne- lefty lawyers that are challenging- lefty lawyers that are challenging the way lefty lawyers that are - challenging-the way and challenging along the way and ewbbonbed— challenging along the way and ewbbonbed by— challenging along the way and supported by people like keir sbdnnen—

supported by people like keir starmer-lefty_ supported by people like keir starmer lefty lawyer starmer as a lefty lawyer bbneebb— starmer as a lefty lawyer himself, then— starmer as a lefty lawyer himself, then clearly those are the-challenges- the sort of challenges that we're-. so the- the sort of challenges that we're . so the point i'm we're facing. so the point i'm gebbbng— we're facing. so the point i'm gebbbng db— we're facing. so the point i'm gebbbng db be— we're facing. so the point i'm getting at is that— we're facing. so the point i'm getting at is that originally i eonb— getting at is that originally i eonb-bod— getting at is that originally i sort-had some— getting at is that originally i sort had some scepticism , sort of had some scepticism, some concerns— sort of had some scepticism, some concerns about the debonbdbbon—j some concerns about the. deportation _, but deportation to rwanda, but bbbng— deportation to rwanda, but having researched it and having neeognbeed— having researched it and having recognised that— having researched it and having recognised that united recognised that the united wobbone— recognised that the united nations agency nations refugee agency themselves— nations refugee agency themselves sent people from bbbyd— themselves sent people from bbbyd bo— themselves sent people from libya to rwanda— themselves sent people from libya to rwanda to be safe, then bneb— libya to rwanda to be safe, then that demonstrates— libya to rwanda to be safe, then that demonstrates the safety of the that demonstrates the safety of bbe bobby— that demonstrates the safety of bbe bobby end— that demonstrates the safety of the policy and why the lord cbbeb— the policy and why the lord chief justice— the policy and why the lord chief justice backed it. so bebe— chief justice backed it. so beb-e bebe— chief justice backed it. so let's let's see— chief justice backed it. so let's let's see what the supreme bob— let's let's see what the supreme fair criticism _ let's let's see what the supreme fair criticism of— let's let's see what the supreme fair criticism of rwanda exactly nbgbb. — fair criticism of rwanda exactly ngbb. bub— fair criticism of rwanda exactly right. but what— fair criticism of rwanda exactly right. but what about- fair criticism of rwanda exactly right. but what about this idea that it's going to cost £169,000 per migrant ? some people might per migrant? some people might just say give them £10,000 when they turn up at the channel and send them back to france. well, the issue here be cheaper,- the issue here be cheaper, wowbdn-b— the issue here be cheaper, wouldn't it?— the issue here be cheaper, wouldn't it? but the issue here is wouldn't it? but the issue here be dbowb— wouldn't it? but the issue here be dbowb be— wouldn't it? but the issue here is about is breaking the cycle bneb— is about is breaking the cycle that gangmasters is about is breaking the cycle. that-gangmasters-in that these gangmasters have in exnbobbbng— that these gangmasters have in exnbobbbng .— that these gangmasters have in exnbobbbng . so— that these gangmasters have in exploiting . so the most exploiting. so the most vulnerable— exploiting. so the most- vulnerable - £1,000. exploiting. so the most- vulnerable-£1,000. how vulnerable people, £1,000. how do-bn— vulnerable people, £1,000. how do-bn-vnbe— vulnerable people, £1,000. how do-bn-vnbe ob- do people in the vale of glamorgan that kind glamorgan think about that kind of expenditure? well, let's look at of expenditure? well, let's look db bbe— of expenditure? well, let's look db bbe db— of expenditure? well, let's look db bbe db bbe— of expenditure? well, let's look at the at the _context- of expenditure? well, let's look at the at the _context of. at the at the wider context of be. — at the at the wider context of be. some — at the at the wider context of be. some ob— at the at the wider context of this. some of the— at the at the wider context of this. some of the most vulnerable,— this. some of the most vulnerable, exploited people in the vulnerable, exploited people in bbe-bebng— vulnerable, exploited people in the being exploited the world are being exploited bwnbben— the world are being exploited bwnbben end— the world are being exploited further and put— the world are being exploited further and put on the most

treacherous— further and put on the most treacherous coming treacherous crossing coming denoeeod-bbe- treacherous crossing coming across boats from across in small boats from bbe— across in small boats from across the english, across the bngbeb — across the english, across the english channel— across the english, across the english channel and unless we eend— english channel and unless we eend d— english channel and unless we eend d obed— english channel and unless we send a clear signal that if beobbe— send a clear signal that if people arrive— send a clear signal that if people arrive illegally into the uk people arrive illegally into the bb end— people arrive illegally into the bb end bbey— people arrive illegally into the uk and they will— people arrive illegally into the uk and they will be deported, bben— uk and they will be deported, bben bben— uk and they will be deported, then then we're— uk and they will be deported, then then we're not going to bnedb— then then we're not going to bnedb bneb— then then we're not going to break that cycle. _ then then we're not going to break that cycle. and that's why bbe— break that cycle. and that's why bbbe bobby— break that cycle. and that's why bbbe bobby be— break that cycle. and that's why bbbe bobby be e— break that cycle. and that's why this policy is a key— break that cycle. and that's why this policy is a key part of it. bbb— this policy is a key part of it. bbb b— this policy is a key part of it. bbb b b— this policy is a key part of it. but if it still— this policy is a key part of it. but if it still passionate bobby— but if it still passionate bobby bo— but if it still passionate policy to break the majority, to bnedb— policy to break the majority, to bnedb bbe— policy to break the majority, to break the whole— policy to break the majority, to break the whole that these gongnoebene— break the whole that these gangmasters have in this ebbwdbbon— gangmasters have in this situation, if— gangmasters have in this situation, if we to situation, if we get to a ebbwdbbon— situation, if we get to a situation by— situation, if we get to a situation by the of the situation, if we get to a- situation by the .of the year situation, if we get to a- situeyou by the .of the year situation, if we get to a- situeyou stillhe-of the year situation, if we get to a situeyou still haven't)f the year situation, if we get to a situeyou still haven't deported r that you still haven't deported nyone—— that you still haven't deported anyone—nyon- that you still haven't deported anyone—nyon bo anyone to rwanda, do you have to just anyone to rwanda, do you have to boeb—bben— anyone to rwanda, do you have to boeb—bben end- anyone to rwanda, do you have to boeb—bben end by. just abandon this plan and try eonebbbng— something else? well, i'm obbbnbebb— something else? well, i'm optimistic that— something else? well, i'm optimistic that we will make good— optimistic that we will make good bnogneee— optimistic that we will make good progress this . ' 2 good progress on this. and i. abandonment good progress on this. ' 2 ' 2 well, good progress on this. and i.- abandonmentlthis. well, no, abandonment of this. well, no, no, we won't no, no. i'm sure we won't abandon—bwbl no, no. i'm sure we won't. abandon—but it's abandon the policy, but it's wben— abandon the policy, but it's when—lawyers. abandon the policy, but it's. when—lawyers and when these lefty lawyers and eonbdgn— when these lefty lawyers and campaign continue to campaign groups continue to ebdbbenge— campaign groups continue to challenge stage, then challenge at every stage, then ebeenby— challenge at every stage, then ebeenby bbe— challenge at every stage, then clearly this-one- challenge at every stage, then clearly this one element clearly this is just one element of clearly this is just one element ob-wbden— clearly this is just one element ob-wbden nonge- clearly this is just one element of-wider range of- of a much wider range of bobbbee. — of a much wider range of policies. but— of a much wider range of policies. but i'm optimistic bneb— policies. but i'm optimistic bbdb we— policies. but i'm optimistic that we will— policies. but i'm optimistic that we will get there. and bwbbb— that we will get there. and public opinion— that we will get there. and public opinion is on our side on bbe— public opinion is on our side on bbb-bneb— public opinion is on our side on this-that.need- public opinion is on our side on this-that.need.stopl this and that we need to stop bboee— this and that we need to stop those—crossings. this and that we need to stopi those—crossings . this and that we need to stop. those—crossings . i those treacherous crossings. i know— those treacherous crossings. i know beobbe— those treacherous crossings. i know people believe- those treacherous crossings. i know people believe in- those treacherous crossings. i know people believe in that, but they just don't think they're necessarily the necessarily have faith in the policy nobody's policy because so far nobody's been let's just move been deported. let's just move on of matters if we

on to kind of tory matters if we can. there's been some infighting in the party. again with lord goldsmith standing down, he claims, because of net zero. you think might have down, he claims, because of net zero. because hink might have down, he claims, because of net zero. because hek might have down, he claims, because of net zero. because he wasnight have down, he claims, because of net zero. because he was criticisede been because he was criticised by committee? by the privileges committee? it was supporter of boris was a fierce supporter of boris johnson? well, who knows? but all johnson? well, who knows? but ebb—bobbe- johnson? well, who knows? but all—politics has. all i know is that politics has been— all i know is that politics has been-nobey- all i know is that politics has been-nobey ob- all i know is that politics has been noisy of late. all i know is that politics has. been-noisy of late. i been extremely noisy of late. i bbbnb— been extremely noisy of late. i bbb-bbeee— been extremely noisy of late. i think-these days- been extremely noisy of late. i think these days moves think politics these days moves on-gwbbby— think politics these days moves on-gwbbby .— think politics these days moves on quickly , whereas boris on quite quickly, whereas boris bobneon— on quite quickly, whereas boris johnson would— on quite quickly, whereas boris johnson would have come up on the johnson would have come up on bbe doonebeb— johnson would have come up on the doorstep two— johnson would have come up on the doorstep two weeks ago. i was out knocking doors yeebenddy. — was out knocking doors. yesterday. - raised was out knocking doors- yesterday. _raised once yesterday. it wasn't raised once wbbb—bbe— yesterday. it wasn't raised once wbbb—bbbe bo- yesterday. it wasn't raised once with-like to think. with me, so i'd like to think bneb— with me, so i'd like to think that there's— with me, so i'd like to think that there's more of a space gnowbng— that there's more of a space gnowbng eo— that there's more of a space growing so that— that there's more of a space growing so that the prime nbnbeben— growing so that the prime minister can— growing so that the prime minister can make his case, can denonebndbe— minister can make his case, can demonstrate that— minister can make his case, can demonstrate that he is nebbeebbng— demonstrate that he is reflecting the priorities that the reflecting the priorities that bbe bneb— reflecting the priorities that the that the _ reflecting the priorities that the that the population are bbgbbbgbbbng— the that the population are highlighting and then demonstrate that he is making bnogneee— demonstrate that he is making bnogneee on— demonstrate that he is making progress on those— demonstrate that he is making progress on those two. but is eobdenbbb— progress on those two. but is goldsmith right to be saying the government doing enough on government isn't doing enough on the environment zero? i the environment and zero? i don't at i don't don't think at all and i don't bbbnb— don't think at all and i don't bbbnb bnebe— don't think at all and i don't think that's-case.- don't think at all and i don't think that's case. i think think that's the case. i think we-we—ebnongl we've got a really strong neeond— we've got a really strong neeond-bo- we've got a really strong record.-to show. we've got a really strong record. to show in we've got a really strong- record.-to show in terms record. we go to show in terms of bbe— record. we go to show in terms of bbe cob— record. we go to show in terms of the cop conference that was bebd— of the cop conference that was bebd bn— of the cop conference that was held in glasgow,— of the cop conference that was held in glasgow, the progress bneb— held in glasgow, the progress that—comparedl that we're making compared to obben— that we're making compared to other—nations- that we're making compared to other—nations .- other international nations. bbey-ne—eodbl other international nations.- they're_coal fired they're opening new coal fired bowen— they're opening new coal fired power stations— they're opening new coal fired power stations germany. the power stations in germany. the bnogneee— power stations in germany. the bnogneee bneb—

power stations in germany. the progress that we're making in obebone— progress that we're making in offshore wind— progress that we're making in offshore wind ,_ progress that we're making in offshore wind , we are world offshore wind, we are world beddene— offshore wind, we are world beddene bn— offshore wind, we are world leaders in offshore wind. 4:3. leaders in offshore wind. you obe— leaders in offshore wind. you obe-bbee- leaders in offshore wind. you cite _there should l leaders in offshore wind. youl cite-there should we leaders in offshore wind. you cite there should we be cite germany. there should we be pulling back from this net zero target? what for instance, do the people of vale, of the vale of glamorgan think about replacing boilers with replacing their gas boilers with heat and do they want to heat pumps and do they want to be ditching their petrol and diesel i'd diesel cars come 2030? i'd imagine they don't in that area. well, going through welitransitionalgoing through welltransitionalgoing tiyou;h this transitional period, you see,-therefore- this transitional period, you see, therefore there this transitional period, you see,-therefore there new see, and therefore there are new bnowdbbone— see, and therefore there are new innovations, technologies innovations, new technologies bneb— innovations, new technologies. bbdb—vodn that are being developed. your oonebbbwenbe— that are being developed. your constituents are— that are being developed. your constituents are without a question want achieve question that we want to achieve getting the heat pumps, changing their to know their cars. we want to know debnbbeby— their cars. we want to know definitely we _ their cars. we want to know definitely we want- ” le”; we want to know definitely we want to get to the debnbbeby— definitely we want to get to the debnbbebyl— definitely we want to get to the definitely-, we _ definitely we want to get to the definitely , we want to definitely yes, we want to get to definitely yes, we want to get bo-neb— definitely yes, we want to get bo-neb eno— definitely yes, we want to get to net zero saying i really to the net zero saying i really wdnb— to the net zero saying i really wdnb bo— to the net zero saying i really wdnb bo geb— to the net zero saying i really want to get expensive want to get an expensive ebeebnb—byl want to get an expensive. electric _ my gas want to get an expensive- electric_my gas boiler electric car swap. my gas boiler for pump. people electric car swap. my gas boiler for-pump. people want. electric car swap. my gas boilerl for-pump. people want to for a heat pump. people want to debbewe— for a heat pump. people want to achieve people achieve net zero. people recognise that some technologies will innovative than will be more innovative than others. that is transition in others. that is a transition in moving across. so that's and that's why it though. well i don't think that we will be. i think that in the way that we've demonstrated to suggest that it probably householders at probably costs householders at least each. well, probably costs householders at least each. well , there's least £2,000 each. well, there's bobe— least £2,000 each. well, there's lots . research _ least £2,000 each. well, there's lots . research - lots- least £2,000 each. well, there's lots . research - lots of i lots of research showing lots of dbbenenb— different things. but the point i'm that is an

i'm making is that this is an extreme innovative of extreme innovative area of policy . we world leaders in policy. we are world leaders in offshore wind. we are demonstrating we are demonstrating that we are generating almost half of our energy in a relatively short penod energy in a relatively short period of time through the through, through wind energy and other renewable sources . but other renewable sources. but that doesn't say that we need to abandon north sea oil and gas because that is key to our energy security. and that's something which is a great dividing line us and the dividing line between us and the labour , who absolutely labour party, who absolutely want to stop our exploration of new sources, of in the north sea and that would expose our energy security at a time when really, in considering the conflicts between ukraine and russia, but also the volatility in the middle east, we need to be planning for our own future that has a mix. let's talk about bdbown— has a mix. let's talk about labour because— x let's talk about labour because obviously they're in labour because obviously they're bn-bn— labour because obviously they're bn-bn wdbee— labour because obviously they're in-in wales now.- labour because obviously they're in in wales now. frank in power in wales now. frank bwnbe— in power in wales now. frank bwnbz, wbobe— in power in wales now. frank luntz, who's elections guru, luntz, who's the elections guru, i luntz, who's the elections guru, b-bobd— luntz, who's the elections guru, b-bobd bbe— luntz, who's the elections guru, i-told the 1922— luntz, who's the elections guru, i told the 1922 that the i think told the 1922 that the bone— i think told the 1922 that the bonbee need— i think told the 1922 that the tories need to— i think told the 1922 that the tories need to attack labour _o- tories need to attack labour —bo be- tories need to attack labourj more._to be more more. they need to be more bbbng— more. they need to be more bbbng-ob— more. they need to be more taking of mistakes more. they need to be more- taking-of-mistakes that taking more of the mistakes that bdbown— taking more of the mistakes that baboon-node— taking more of the mistakes that labour made places like labour have made in places like wdbee— labour have made in places like wdbee .— labour have made in places like wdbee . bo— labour have made in places like wdbee . do you— labour have made in places like wales . do you agree with that? wales. do you agree with that? oh,

wales. do you agree with that? on. wbbbodb— wales. do you agree with that? on. wbbbodb n— wales. do you agree with that? oh, without a question. - wales. do you agree with that? oh, without a question. i've been some been making the point for some time we don't judge. we time about we don't judge. we shouldn't judging shouldn't be judging kyiv starmer says. starmer on what he says. we should labour should be judging on what labour deliver. example on deliver. so for example, on the nhs, minister is nhs, the prime minister is committed reducing the nhs committed to reducing the nhs waiting in wales. just waiting lists in wales. just just three statistics. i can easily give you 31,000 people in wales with a relatively small population are waiting more than two years for an operation . that two years for an operation. that number in england is 500. so that's the demonstration of one of the differences, although a&e in england. well but but i would certainly take the english england waiting list before the welsh waiting list. i would also say that the, the, the a&e waiting times have not been met since they've been introduced. and the 20 and the 26 week waiting times , waiting time in waiting times, waiting time in in wales has not been for met ten years and that's a demonstration. it's not covid issues. these are the performance of the labour party in running the nhs in wales after having been there for 25 years since devolution. okay. alun cairns , thank- years since devolution. okay. alun cairns , thank you- bib“ okay. alun cairns , thank you very much alun cairns, thank you very much for alun cairns, thank you very much don—bbe—

alun cairns, thank you very much for—this morning- alun cairns, thank you very much for—this morning .- alun cairns, thank you very much for this morning. up forjoining me this morning. up newb— forjoining me this morning. up next, we're going— forjoining me this morning. up next, we're going to be speaking forjoining me this morning. up next, tlibe going to be speaking forjoining me this morning. up next, tlib dems,| to be speaking forjoining me this morning. up next, tlib dems, laylab speaking forjoining me this morning. up next, tlib dems, layla moraning forjoining me this morning. up next, tlib dems, layla moran and to the lib dems, layla moran and of course health secretary sbebben— stephen barclay. don't go onywbene— stephen barclay. don't go onywbene .—

lots more to come on today's camilla tominey show just after the break. i'm going to be speaking to lib dem mp layla moran to the lib dems. have any hope of winning the next general election or at least getting close? i'm going to put that to her. do the her. and also do the government's nhs reforms go far enough? to enough? do we need to see a radical overhaul of how the nhs operates? i'm going to be interviewing barclay. interviewing stephen barclay. the just a the health secretary, in just a moment. coming after moment. all that's coming after the armstrong . the news with aaron armstrong. hello. it is 10:00. very good nonnbng— hello. it is 10:00. very good nonnbng bo— hello. it is 10:00. very good morning to you,— hello. it is 10:00. very good morning to you, aaron armstrong bene— morning to you, aaron armstrong bene bn— morning to you, aaron armstrong bene bn bbe— morning to you, aaron armstrong bene bn bbe eb— morning to you, aaron armstrong here in the gb newsroom. more bben— here in the gb newsroom. more bben boo— here in the gb newsroom. more bben boo beobbe— here in the gb newsroom. more than 700 people have been enneebed— than 700 people have been enneebed bn— than 700 people have been arrested in france following a bbbn— arrested in france following a bbbb nbgbb— arrested in france following a fifth night of— arrested in france following a fifth night of rioting. tear gas weed— fifth night of rioting. tear gas weed bo— fifth night of rioting. tear gas was used to disperse crowds in beneebbbe— was used to disperse crowds in marseille, where— was used to disperse crowds in marseille, where police clashed wbbb— marseille, where police clashed wbbb-bebe— marseille, where police clashed with - late into - marseille, where police clashed with _late into the . with protesters late into the nbgbb. — with protesters late into the nbgbb. bb— with protesters late into the night. it follows— with protesters late into the night. it follows the death of beendgen— night. it follows the death of teenager nahel_ night. it follows the death of teenager nahel merzouk, who was ebob— teenager nahel merzouk, who was ebob by— teenager nahel merzouk, who was ebob by bobbe— teenager nahel merzouk, who was shot by police during a traffic ebob— shot by police during a traffic ebob bn— shot by police during a traffic ebob bn bone— shot by police during a traffic stop in paris on— shot by police during a traffic stop in paris on tuesday. shot by police during a traffic stop in paris on tuesday . the stop in paris on tuesday. the bneebdenb,— stop in paris on tuesday. the president, emmanuel macron , has president, emmanuel macron, has boebboned— president, emmanuel macron, has boebboned d— president, emmanuel macron, has postponed a state— president, emmanuel macron, has postponed a state visit to eenndny— postponed a state visit to germany and _ postponed a state visit to germany and journalist peter bben— germany and journalist peter abben bn— germany and journalist peter allen in paris— germany and journalist peter allen in paris believes a state

of allen in paris believes a state ob enengeney— allen in paris believes a state of emergency could still be announced. _ of emergency could still be announced. be“ of emergency could still be announced. e“ “ of emergency could still be announced. daniel macron keeps announcing extra police every night . he's announcing extra police every night. he's up to announcing extra police every night . he's up to 45,000 extra night. he's up to 45,000 extra police each evening . he's going police each evening. he's going to run out of policemen soon to push out. so then he brings in the army. it's a it's certainly a state of crisis at the moment . and his next step would probably be to introduce a state of emergency, unless there's a massive change in the public consciousness and the rioting stops some other way . now consciousness and the rioting stops some other way. now in consciousness and the rioting stops some other way . now in the stops some other way. now in the uk, new measures— stops some other way. now in the uk, new measures to— stops some other way. now in the uk, new measures to crack- now in the uk, new measures to crack down on environmental— uk, new measures to crack down on environmental activists come bnbo— on environmental activists come bnbo dobe— on environmental activists come bnbo bonee boddy. — on environmental activists come into force today. british bndnebonb— into force today. british transport and- into force today. british transport and ministry of defence— transport and ministry of defence police will now have ebbdnded— defence police will now have expanded powers to move on ebdbb— expanded powers to move on static protests,— expanded powers to move on static protests, tunnelling or bebng— static protests, tunnelling or bebng bneeenb— static protests, tunnelling or being present in— static protests, tunnelling or being present in a tunnel to cause disruption— being present in a tunnel to cause disruption will become a ennbndb— cause disruption will become a new criminal offence and that eowbd— new criminal offence and that eowbd neewbb— new criminal offence and that could result in— new criminal offence and that could result in up— new criminal offence and that could result in up to three yedne— could result in up to three yedne bn— could result in up to three yedne bn bbb — could result in up to three years in jail. the home seenebdny— years in jail. the home secretary suella braverman, says the secretary suella braverman, says bbe-nedewnee— secretary suella braverman, says the - measures are _ secretary suella braverman, says the measures are necessary the new measures are necessary to the new measures are necessary bo-wbbb— the new measures are necessary bo-wbbb neyben— the new measures are necessary to-with mayhem on- the new measures are necessary to with mayhem on the to deal with mayhem on the ebneebe— to deal with mayhem on the streets. environmental campaigners such as just stop oil campaigners such as just stop obb end— campaigners such as just stop oil and extinction rebellion say it oil and extinction rebellion say bb bbnedbene— oil and extinction rebellion say it threatens their— oil and extinction rebellion say it threatens their right to

bnobeeb. — it threatens their right to bnobeeb. bbb— it threatens their right to protest. but a- it threatens their right to protest. but a labour government wowbd— protest. but a labour government wowbd gbe— protest. but a labour government would give teachers— protest. but a labour government would give teachers in england baboo— would give teachers in england bebee bo— would give teachers in england bebee bo ebob— would give teachers in england £2,400 to stop them leaving the bnobeeebon— £2,400 to stop them leaving the bnobeeebon .— £2,400 to stop them leaving the profession . the— £2,400 to stop them leaving the profession . the party's profession. the party's bnonbebng— profession. the party's promising £50 million a year to bnewenb— promising £50 million a year to bnewenb wbob— promising £50 million a year to prevent what it— promising £50 million a year to prevent what it calls an exodus bended— prevent what it calls an exodus bonded by— prevent what it calls an exodus funded by ending— prevent what it calls an exodus funded by ending tax breaks for bnbdbe— funded by ending tax breaks for private schools— funded by ending tax breaks for private schools .— funded by ending tax breaks for private schools . nearly 1 in 5 private schools. nearly 1 in 5 bedebene— private schools. nearly 1 in 5 teachers who _ private schools. nearly 1 in 5 teachers who qualified in 2020 bowe— teachers who qualified in 2020 bdwe ebnee— teachers who qualified in 2020 have since quit— teachers who qualified in 2020 have since quit shadow education seenebdny— have since quit shadow education secretary bridget— have since quit shadow education secretary bridget phillipson edye— secretary bridget phillipson edyebbe— secretary bridget phillipson says the problem needs to be dddneeeed. — says the problem needs to be addressed. but— says the problem needs to be addressed. but if— says the problem needs to be addressed. �*7 ” says the problem needs to be addressed. but if our new teachers, when they've completed their early career framework, when they finish those two years, they will then receive a retention payment at the end of that. single biggest way that. the single biggest way that. the single biggest way that we make sure that children get really great outcomes and get really great outcomes and get a great start in life in school is through high quality teaching right at the teaching. and right now at the moment face a recruitment moment we face a recruitment and retention the retention crisis across the profession. people leaving profession. people are leaving teaching droves. 1 in 5 teaching in their droves. 1 in 5 new teachers leave within the first couple of years, and that's why i believe it's absolutely essential that we address that . and rail address that. and rail bdeeengene— address that. and rail passengers are- e22 and rail passengers are facing more dbenwbbbon— passengers are facing more disruption over— passengers are facing more disruption over the coming week.

bebee— disruption over the coming week. aslef members— disruption over the coming week. aslef members at— disruption over the coming week. aslef members at 16 train eobnee— aslef members at 16 train companies in— aslef members at 16 train companies in england will refuse to companies in england will refuse bo wob— companies in england will refuse to work overtime,— companies in england will refuse to work overtime, which obendbone— to work overtime, which operators rely- to work overtime, which operators rely on to run their bubb— operators rely on to run their full timetable.— operators rely on to run their full timetable. the union says it's full timetable. the union says bb-e edbbbng— full timetable. the union says it's calling for— full timetable. the union says it's calling for fair pay , but it's calling for fair pay, but bbe— it's calling for fair pay, but bbe nabb— it's calling for fair pay, but the rail delivery group says asbbb— the rail delivery group says aslef rejected _ the rail delivery group says aslef rejected its last offer of bbeee— aslef rejected its last offer of bbooo ndee— aslef rejected its last offer of £5,000 raise, as— aslef rejected its last offer of £5,000 raise, as which would bnbng— £5,000 raise, as which would bnbng bbe— £5,000 raise, as which would bring the basic— £5,000 raise, as which would bring the basic salary for dnbene— bring the basic salary for drivers working a four day week to drivers working a four day week bo nednby— drivers working a four day week to nearly £65,000.— drivers working a four day week to nearly £65,000. services will be dbbeebed— to nearly £65,000. services will be affected from _ to nearly £65,000. services will be affected from monday to sdbwnddy. — be affected from monday to saturday. that— be affected from monday to saturday. that is it . you're saturday. that is it. you're bobby— saturday. that is it. you're bnbby nb— saturday. that is it. you're bnbby db bo— saturday. that is it. you're fully up to date- saturday. that is it. you're fully up to date here on gb newe— fully up to date here on gb wewe. wow— fully up to date here on gb news. now it's— fully up to date here on gb news. now it's back over to . camilla welcome back to the camilla tominey show. i'm going to be speaking the lib speaking to layla moran, the lib dem in just a moment. find dem mp, in just a moment. find out what the liberal democrats are to achieve come are hoping to achieve come the next election. out next general election. find out a bit more about their a little bit more about their policies as steve the policies as steve barclay, the health is going to health secretary, is going to be joining well. the joining me as well. does the government's announcement

joining me as well. does the governmego; announcement joining me as well. does the governmego far announcement joining me as well. does the governmego far enough? ncement yesterday go far enough? and lord the who lord carlile, the lord who successfully tabled an amendment to illegal to the government's illegal migration should they be migration bill should they be getting involved? the lords ? getting involved? the lords? should lords be should the house of lords be intervening government intervening in government policy? hardliner policy? and tory hardliner daniel kawczynski very much daniel kawczynski is very much in favour of the wanda plan, also joins me now. i'm hoping layla moran is with me. layla, can hear me? the lib dem mp can you hear me? the lib dem mp for lovely be for oxford west. lovely to be with lovely to speak to with you. lovely to speak to you. you're also affairs you. you're also foreign affairs spokesman. i know, layla spokesman. woman i know, layla so you of all so let's ask you first of all about situation in france. i about the situation in france. i mean, would you be happy travelling right now? travelling to france right now? well , i've been speaking to some well, i've been speaking to some of well, i've been speaking to some ob-bbende— well, i've been speaking to some of-friends who— well, i've been speaking to some of-friends who live- well, i've been speaking to some of friends who live in paris of my friends who live in paris end— of my friends who live in paris and bbey— of my friends who live in paris and bbey nebonb— of my friends who live in paris and they report actually that the and they report actually that bbe bnobeebe— and they report actually that the protests are— and they report actually that the protests are relatively eonbdned. — the protests are relatively contained. they feel quite safe so contained. they feel quite safe eo bong— contained. they feel quite safe eo bong de— contained. they feel quite safe eo bong be bbey— contained. they feel quite safe so long as they stay away from bben. — so long as they stay away from bben. bnonee— so long as they stay away from them. france has— so long as they stay away from them. france has a— so long as they stay away from them. france has a history of bbe— them. france has a history of bbbe bbnd— them. france has a history of bbbe bbnd ob— them. france has a history of this kind of protest. they're webb— this kind of protest. they're webb weed— this kind of protest. they're well used to— this kind of protest. they're well used to it.— this kind of protest. they're well used to it. i- this kind of protest. they're well used to it. i would go to bone— well used to it. i would go to bone .— well used to it. i would go to bone i— well used to it. i would go to france , i probably well used to it. i would go to- france ,-i-probably not france, but i would probably not join france, but i would probably not iobn bbe— france, but i would probably not join the protests— france, but i would probably not join the protests or— france, but i would probably not join the protests or go anywhere bben.— join the protests or go anywhere near them. and— join the protests or go anywhere near them. and relatively near them. and there relatively well—advertised. _ near them. and there relatively well—advertised. i— near them. and there relatively well—advertised. i really hope it well—advertised. i really hope bb doee— well—advertised. i really hope bb doee eobn— well—advertised. i really hope it does calm there. the it does calm down there. the ebbwobbon— it does calm down there. the situation-clearly- it does calm down there. the situation clearly very situation is clearly very bowgbb— situation is clearly very fraught and— situation is clearly very fraught and fragile and you know,— fraught and fragile and you know, b— fraught and fragile and you

know, b on— fraught and fragile and you know, i am thinking of my bbende— know, i am thinking of my friends who— know, i am thinking of my friends who are- know, i am thinking of my friends who are being caught up in friends who are being caught up bn db.— friends who are being caught up bn b. be— friends who are being caught up in it. it's incredibly disruptive. ' “2 in it. it's incredibly disruptive. ' 2 in it. it's incredibly- disruptive. and with france in it. it's incredibly— disruptive. and with france in mind, obviously france often features debates about features in debates about immigration. i features in debates about immigration . i know you're immigration. i know you're opposed to the rwanda plan. what's your alternative for stopping the boats? layla mm. so first of all, we have to have a so first of all, we have to have o boob— so first of all, we have to have o boob ob— so first of all, we have to have a look at who's— so first of all, we have to have a look at who's actually coming across on these— a look at who's actually coming across on these boats. government's- across on these boats. government's own statistics show bbob— government's own statistics show bbob bbe— government's own statistics show bbob bbe boeb— government's own statistics show that the vast majority, most neeenbby— that the vast majority, most neeenbby ,— that the vast majority, most recently , have— that the vast majority, most recently , have been coming from recently, have been coming from bboeee— recently, have been coming from places afghanistan . now, places like afghanistan. now, beobbe— places like afghanistan. now, people remember that the people will remember that the weny— people will remember that the weny nobbd— people will remember that the very rapid withdrawal where we eobd— very rapid withdrawal where we eobd bbob— very rapid withdrawal where we eobd bbob we— very rapid withdrawal where we said that we would help anyone wbo— said that we would help anyone wbo bebbed— said that we would help anyone who helped the— said that we would help anyone who helped the british while we obb— who helped the british while we were out there— who helped the british while we were out there has— who helped the british while we were out there has actually bobben— were out there has actually bobben bob— were out there has actually fallen flat on— were out there has actually fallen flat on its face. and bebb— fallen flat on its face. and we've left many people there unden— we've left many people there wnden boge— we've left many people there under huge strain, persecute by the under huge strain, persecute by bbe bobbbon— under huge strain, persecute by the taliban that— under huge strain, persecute by the taliban that are desperate for somewhere _ the taliban that are desperate for somewhere else to go. and beeoee— for somewhere else to go. and because they've _ for somewhere else to go. and because they've got family here, ob— because they've got family here, of am,— because they've got family here, some of them, they've ended up wonbbng— some of them, they've ended up wonbbng bo— some of them, they've ended up wanting to come— some of them, they've ended up wanting to come here. so i think gob— wanting to come here. so i think gob bo— wanting to come here. so i think gob bo eeb— wanting to come here. so i think we've got to set up— wanting to come here. so i think we've got to set up safe and begob— we've got to set up safe and begob nowbee— we've got to set up safe and legal routes, particularly for bboee— legal routes, particularly for bboee bboeee— legal routes, particularly for those places where there is a lot those places where there is a bob ob— those places where there is a lot of disruption.— those places where there is a lot of disruption. but then for the lot of disruption. but then for bbe obbene— lot of disruption. but then for bbe obbene ,— lot of disruption. but then for the others , safe— lot of disruption. but then for the others , safe and legal

the others, safe and legal nowbee— the others, safe and legal routes, layla,— the others, safe and legal routes, layla, i- the others, safe and legal routes, layla, i mean, we've got eobe— routes, layla, i mean, we've got eobe ond— routes, layla, i mean, we've got eobe ond begob— routes, layla, i mean, we've got safe and legal routes, but but ewneby— safe and legal routes, but but ewneby even— safe and legal routes, but but surely even you— safe and legal routes, but but surely even you have to admit, ebob— surely even you have to admit, ebob wb. — surely even you have to admit, ebob db. bob— surely even you have to admit, ebob db. bob yew— surely even you have to admit, shut up. e2 g shut up. but you have to admit. yeah, but we have to admit that there has to be a limit even on asylum claims to this country, there has to a limit, doesn't there has to be a limit, doesn't there? so on asylum claims , there? so on asylum claims, people are refugees and they have a right across the world. and we've signed up to international- and we've signed up to international agreements that say international agreements that eoy bbe— international agreements that eoy bbbe bbob— international agreements that say this, that they can go to wbbbewen— say this, that they can go to whichever country. it doesn't bowe— whichever country. it doesn't bowe bo— whichever country. it doesn't bowe bo be— whichever country. it doesn't have to be the— whichever country. it doesn't have to be the first any country ond— have to be the first any country ond bneb— have to be the first any country and their claim _ have to be the first any country and their claim assessed. now the-government- and their claim assessed. now the government needs the thing the government needs to the thing the government needs bolde— the thing the government needs bolbe bo— the thing the government needs bolbe bo eonb— the thing the government needs to.is to sort the— the thing the government needs to is to sort the wheat from to do is to sort the wheat from bbe— to do is to sort the wheat from bbe ebob. — to do is to sort the wheat from bbe ebob. b— to do is to sort the wheat from the chaff. i think— to do is to sort the wheat from the chaff. i think most people , the chaff. i think most people, oh,— the chaff. i think most people, on, w-wee— the chaff. i think most people, oh, we've lost— the chaff. i think most people, oh, we've lost layla moran i bbbnb— oh, we've lost layla moran i bbbnb bbn— oh, we've lost layla moran i bbbnb bbn gobng— oh, we've lost layla moran i think i'm going to— oh, we've lost layla moran i think i'm going to bring madeline grant into the conversation now, who was paper reviewing for me earlier? your utility player on today's show. madeleine, thank you. layla moran rwanda . this moran talking about rwanda. this is often the case for the critics this policy. their critics of this policy. their only alternative is safe and legal routes . we've got safe and legal routes. we've got safe and legal routes. we've got safe and legal routes. we've let in people from afghanistan. we've let people from hong kong. let in people from hong kong.

we've from we've let in people from ukraine. is a problem for ukraine. is this a problem for the left? because the electorate doesn't agree that there doesn't seem to agree that there should immigration should just be mass immigration to without any to this country without any controls? like layla seem controls? people like layla seem to think that anybody who claims asylum be allowed to asylum should just be allowed to reside yes. imean, asylum should just be allowed to reside yes. i mean, this reside here. yes. i mean, this is reside here. yes. i mean, this be be— reside here. yes. i mean, this be bbbe be— reside here. yes. i mean, this is this is-great_ reside here. yes. i mean, this is this is-great fiction- ”bi; 2bi “bi”bi b4zi; i mean, this is this is great fiction of is this is the great fiction of bbe— is this is the great fiction of bbe-bbob— is this is the great fiction of bbe-bbob we— is this is the great fiction of the that we don't is this is the great fiction of. the .that we don't-any the left that we don't have any eobe— the left that we don't have any eobe ond— the left that we don't have any safe and legal— the left that we don't have any safe and legal routes. and also bbob— safe and legal routes. and also bbob b— safe and legal routes. and also bbob b we— safe and legal routes. and also that if we were— safe and legal routes. and also that if we were to— safe and legal routes. and also that if we were to have them, bbe— that if we were to have them, bbbe wowbd— that if we were to have them, this would be— that if we were to have them, this would be a— that if we were to have them, this would be a panacea that wowbd— this would be a panacea that would somehow— this would be a panacea that would somehow of the would somehow solve all of the bnobbene— would somehow solve all of the bnobbene-eee- would somehow solve all of the problems-see at- would somehow solve all of the problems see at calais problems that we see at calais ond— problems that we see at calais ond-bonden.— problems that we see at calais and-border. and- problems that we see at calais and border. and it's just and at the border. and it's just and at the border. and it's just on obeobwbe— and at the border. and it's just an absolute nonsense. i mean, bbe— an absolute nonsense. i mean, bbe-be— an absolute nonsense. i mean, bbe-be-bn— an absolute nonsense. i mean, bbe-be-bn bbe- an absolute nonsense. i mean, the-is-in the world. the fact is that in the world bbene— the fact is that in the world bbenelgneob— the fact is that in the world there great instability. all there is great instability. all oeo—nd- there is great instability. all over-and there. there is great instability. alli over-and there are over the place, and there are gneob— over the place, and there are gneob-beobbe- over the place, and there are great people who live lives great many people who live lives wbene— great many people who live lives wbene bbey— great many people who live lives wbene bbey-bbey— great many people who live lives where they they lack where they feel they lack obbonbnnbby— where they feel they lack. opportunity _ safety opportunity as well as safety ond— opportunity as well as safety ond bnobbe— opportunity as well as safety and that's that's— opportunity as well as safety and that's that's tragic. but bbe— and that's that's tragic. but bbe weeb— and that's that's tragic. but the west cannot— and that's that's tragic. but the west cannot accept everyone wbo— the west cannot accept everyone wbo nobee— the west cannot accept everyone wbo nobee bb— the west cannot accept everyone who makes it here.— the west cannot accept everyone who makes it here. it's just be— who makes it here. it's just be nob— who makes it here. it's just it's not feasible— who makes it here. it's just it's not feasible . yeah. and it's not feasible. yeah. and be— it's not feasible. yeah. and be obeo— it's not feasible. yeah. and it's also the— it's not feasible. yeah. and it's also the public would not bobenobe— it's also the public would not tolerate that— it's also the public would not tolerate that either. it would wbbbbbe— tolerate that either. it would wbbbbbe-ob— tolerate that either. it would whittle - at the - tolerate that either. it would whittle at the kind of the whittle away at the kind of the ebobbbbby— whittle away at the kind of the ebobbbbby-we— whittle away at the kind of the stability .we _to - whittle away at the kind of the stability we to have stability that we need to have a bwnebbonbng— stability that we need to have a functioning society. 4:i. stability that we need to have a functioning society. 4.:in functioning society. you know wbob— functioning society. you know wbob we— functioning society. you know what we need clarity on? we need clarity in numbers from the home office and how people office and how many people coming in on those dinghies are economic and many economic migrants and how many of them making legitimate

of them are making legitimate asylum claims. that's the first muddying of these waters . you muddying of these waters. you know, we had this situation throughout the whole of last summer albanians were summer where albanians were coming is coming over. now there is nothing to flee albania for it isn't a country at war. you could argue, i suppose, as somebody once did, oh, you know, they might be fleeing gang crime. well, in this case, you know, why don't we get people from glasgow and tower hamlets going green cards to going and getting green cards to america? i mean, it's america? yeah, i mean, it's absolutely preposterous that we don't the kind of migrants don't know the kind of migrants that we have so that we can then filter into different filter them into different systems. yeah. and the thing wbbb— systems. yeah. and the thing with albania,— systems. yeah. and the thing with albania, you— ~;«b 4 and the thing with albania, you know, i feel weny— with albania, you know, i feel weny eonny— with albania, you know, i feel weny eonny bon— with albania, you know, i feel weny eonny bon o— with albania, you know, i feel very sorry for a young person wbo-e— very sorry for a young person wbobe—bn- very sorry for a young person who's—in albaniai who's growing up in albania bodoy— who's growing up in albania bodoy-bb-e- who's growing up in albania bodoy-bb-e o- who's growing up in albania today it's a country today because it's a country bnobbe— today because it's a country bbob-e-by— today because it's a country that's by corruption. it's that's riven by corruption. it's weny— that's riven by corruption. it's weny dbbewbb— that's riven by corruption. it's very difficult for— that's riven by corruption. it's very difficult for people to bowe— very difficult for people to have successful life, but have a successful life, but egnobby— have a successful life, but equally that's— have a successful life, but equally that's that's equally that's not that's not eonebbbng— equally that's not that's not something britain can can something that britain can can eonbeneobe— something that britain can can compensate for— something that britain can can compensate for by taking eeonyne— compensate for by taking everyone from - compensate for by taking everyone from albania. that's beb— everyone from albania. that's boeb nob— everyone from albania. that's boeb nob bow— everyone from albania. that's just not how it— everyone from albania. that's just not how it works. and wbbbnobeby— just not how it works. and ultimately, if— just not how it works. and ultimately, if you accept such a nobbd— ultimately, if you accept such a nobbd eode— ultimately, if you accept such a rapid exodus of— ultimately, if you accept such a rapid exodus of the young and bobenbed— rapid exodus of the young and talented from _ rapid exodus of the young and talented from these countries, it's talented from these countries, bb-e neen— talented from these countries, bbbe gobng— talented from these countries, it's never going to be solved. bodebbne—

it's never going to be solved. madeline, hold— it's never going to be solved. madeline, hold that- it's never going to be solved. madeline, hold that thought. i think layla might be back. layla, hear me? sorry. layla, can you hear me? sorry. we're having trouble with the comms. . comms. we're talking about. about rwanda. let's just move it on because on a little bit, because obviously the legal migration figure is very high. at 600,000. thatis figure is very high. at 600,000. that is represented by the fact that we have had safe and legal routes for people coming from the ukraine and hong kong. i mean, what figure would you like to see legal migration at layla? look, i want to see you're eonbbobbng— look, i want to see you're conflating a _ look, i want to see you're conflating a number of different eonb— conflating a number of different eonb ob— conflating a number of different eonb ob bbbnge— conflating a number of different sort of things here. so first of an.— sort of things here. so first of obb. bn— sort of things here. so first of obb. bn benne— sort of things here. so first of all, in terms of— sort of things here. so first of all, in terms of people fleeing bbobne.— all, in terms of people fleeing bbobne. b— all, in terms of people fleeing ukraine, i think— all, in terms of people fleeing ukraine, i think i— all, in terms of people fleeing ukraine, i think i had a ukrainian— ukraine, i think i had a ukrainian staying with me for webb— ukrainian staying with me for webb oen— ukrainian staying with me for webb o— ukrainian staying with me for well over a year— ukrainian staying with me for well over a year and she's gone on ond— well over a year and she's gone on ond ene-e— well over a year and she's gone on and she's doing— well over a year and she's gone on and she's doing amazingly webb— on and she's doing amazingly webb and— on and she's doing amazingly webb and b— on and she's doing amazingly well. and i think,— on and she's doing amazingly well. and i think, you know, the exbnoondbnony— well. and i think, you know, the extraordinary generosity of the bnbbbeb— extraordinary generosity of the bnbbbeb beobbe— extraordinary generosity of the british people was is there for all british people was is there for obb bo— british people was is there for obb bo — british people was is there for all to see. and— british people was is there for all to see. and i— british people was is there for all to see. and i think people bobby— all to see. and i think people can fully understand when bbey-ne— can fully understand when they're fleeing _ can fully understand when they're fleeing wars, when bbey-ne— they're fleeing wars, when they're fleeing _ they're fleeing wars, when they're fleeing persecution, obben— they're fleeing persecution, often that's— they're fleeing persecution, often that's then often that's obvious. then bbene-e— often that's obvious. then bbene-e o— often that's obvious. then there's a separate issue of wbebben— there's a separate issue of wbebben on— there's a separate issue of whether or not— there's a separate issue of whether or not there's bbbegobbby— whether or not there's illegality involved . and one of illegality involved. and one of the illegality involved. and one of bbe bbbnge— illegality involved. and one of the things that— illegality involved. and one of the things that we want to see is the things that we want to see be bnob— the things that we want to see be bbob bbe— the things that we want to see is that the home— the things that we want to see is that the home office gets a grip- — is that the home office gets a db ene— is that the home office gets a

db one ob— is that the home office gets a db one ob bbe— is that the home office gets a grip. one of the reasons why the bbgwne— grip. one of the reasons why the bbgwneleo— grip. one of the reasons why the bbgweleo bbgb— grip. one of the reasons why the figure-so high now— grip. one of the reasons why the figure so high now is because figure is so high now is because bbey— figure is so high now is because bbey bowen-b— figure is so high now is because they haven't processing they haven't been processing oeybwn— they haven't been processing. oeybwn—no asylum claims and there is no bnebwdbng— asylum claims and there is no one, including myself , who would one, including myself, who would defend— one, including myself, who would defend criminals— one, including myself, who would defend criminals being allowed to defend criminals being allowed bo-bene— defend criminals being allowed bo-bene ond— defend criminals being allowed to here and leeching to stay here and leeching off bbe— to stay here and leeching off bbe ebobe. — to stay here and leeching off the state. absolutely not. they ebowbd— the state. absolutely not. they ebonbdlgobng— the state. absolutely not. they should-going. but- the state. absolutely not. they should going. but it's the should be going. but it's the gowennnenb— should be going. but it's the. government—them should be going. but it's the. gotthatnent_them should be going. but it's the gotthat because them should be going. but it's the gotthat because they them should be going. but it's the gotthat because they are them should be going. but it's the gotthat because they are taking do that because they are taking nonbbe—ond- do that because they are taking. months—and months. months and months and months. and— months and months and months. and-bbey-ne— months and months and months. and-they're here,- months and months and months. and they're here, they're and while they're here, they're paying— and while they're here, they're paying—payingl paying their bills and paying for-because- paying their bills and paying for because they for their food because they eon-b— for their food because they eonb-bneb— for their food because they can't-their own- for their food because they can't their own admin out. can't sort their own admin out. so can't sort their own admin out. solbbbnb— can't sort their own admin out. soithink actually— can't sort their own admin out. so think actually the answer so i think actually the answer to so i think actually the answer bo bbbe— so i think actually the answer bo bbbe be— so i think actually the answer to this is twofold. _ so i think actually the answer to this is twofold. i mentioned eobe— to this is twofold. i mentioned eobe-nowbee- to this is twofold. i mentioned safe-routes for- to this is twofold. i mentioned safe routes for those safe and legal routes for those bbeebng—bwb- safe and legal routes for those fleeing _ but the l fleeing persecution, but the obben— fleeing persecution, but the other-sorting— fleeing persecution, but the other sorting the wheat from other is sorting the wheat from the other is sorting the wheat from bbe ebob— other is sorting the wheat from the chaff and— other is sorting the wheat from the chaff and conflating the two i the chaff and conflating the two b-bbbnb— the chaff and conflating the two b-bbbnb be— the chaff and conflating the two i-think is helpful.- the chaff and conflating the two i think is helpful. let's i don't think is helpful. let's get— i don't think is helpful. let's geb—wbo- i don't think is helpful. let'si get—who shouldn't i don't think is helpful. let's- get_who shouldn't be get the people who shouldn't be bene— get the people who shouldn't be bene-gwbben. — get the people who shouldn't be here-quicker. okay.- get the people who shouldn't be here quicker. egbibi here out quicker. okay. i agree with you on that, layla, let's talk about what's the talk about housing. what's the lib housing target ? were lib dems housing target? were you in power? how many houses would build every would you like to build every year the main target that year? so the main target that i bbbnb— year? so the main target that i bbbnb we— year? so the main target that i think we need— year? so the main target that i think we need to— «wily? ”7 so the main target that i think we need to talk about more is think we need to talk about more be beeoe— think we need to talk about more is 150,000 social— think we need to talk about more is 150,000 social homes to be bobb— is 150,000 social homes to be bwbbb o— is 150,000 social homes to be bwbbb o yeon. — is 150,000 social homes to be built a year. now,— is 150,000 social homes to be built a year. now, that's really onbbbbowe. — built a year. now, that's really ambitious. that— built a year. now, that's really ambitious. that hasn't happened enee— ambitious. that hasn't happened . yob— ambitious. that hasn't happened since , you know,— ambitious. that hasn't happened since , you know, at the very since, you know, at the very boeb.— since, you know, at the very beoeb. bbe — since, you know, at the very least, the 70s.— since, you know, at the very least, the 70s. but the real beeoe— least, the 70s. but the real be—

least, the 70s. but the real issue is getting— least, the 70s. but the real issue is getting them built and not issue is getting them built and nob bn— issue is getting them built and nob bn bbe— issue is getting them built and not in the hands— issue is getting them built and not in the hands of the developers,— not in the hands of the developers, but in the hands of bed— developers, but in the hands of local communities— developers, but in the hands of local communities and local eownebeb — local communities and local eownebeb so— local communities and local councils. so we're really proud. in councils. so we're really proud. bn ny— councils. so we're really proud. bn eny oneo— councils. so we're really proud. bn eny ob— councils. so we're really proud. in my area of the— councils. so we're really proud. in my area of the vale and south in oxfordshire_ in my area of the vale and south in oxfordshire ,— in my area of the vale and south in oxfordshire , we— in my area of the vale and south in oxfordshire , we have one of in oxfordshire, we have one of bbe— in oxfordshire, we have one of bbe bbgbeeb— in oxfordshire, we have one of the highest rates— in oxfordshire, we have one of the highest rates of housebuilding in the country and we've achieved— housebuilding in the country and we've achieved that by having a bnood— we've achieved that by having a broad community— we've achieved that by having a broad community support for what dong.— broad community support for what we're doing. lots— broad community support for what we're doing. lots and lots of consultation— we're doing. lots and lots of consultation on— we're doing. lots and lots of consultation on and trying to get consultation on and trying to geb bo— consultation on and trying to geb bo o— consultation on and trying to geb bo o bobb— consultation on and trying to get to a point where we deliver the infrastructure— get to a point where we deliver the infrastructure and this is bbe— the infrastructure and this is bbe bond— the infrastructure and this is bbe bond bbb— the infrastructure and this is the hard bit delivering the infrastructure _ the hard bit delivering the infrastructure before the houses are infrastructure before the houses bwbbb. — infrastructure before the houses bwbbb. veny— infrastructure before the houses are built. very often that's dubbe— are built. very often that's quite different— are built. very often that's quite different to the way the gowennnenb— quite different to the way the government planning policy works . and— government planning policy works . and b— government planning policy works . and b bbene— government planning policy works . and if there was— government planning policy works . and if there was one change i wowbd— . and if there was one change i wowbd nobe.— . and if there was one change i would make, it— . and if there was one change i would make, it would be that i bbbnb— would make, it would be that i bbbnb boeb— would make, it would be that i think most people would accept bowebng— think most people would accept more housing they knew it more housing if they knew it wowbd—bbe- more housing if they knew it would—the roads. more housing if they knew it would the roads , more housing if they knew it. would _the roads , the would come with the roads, the eeboobe— would come with the roads, the eeboobe-eb — would come with the roads, the schools, gp services , as schools, the gp services, as bobbed.— schools, the gp services, as promised. and— schools, the gp services, as promised. and then what ends up bobbenbng— promised. and then what ends up bobbenbng be— promised. and then what ends up bobbenbng be bnob— promised. and then what ends up happening is that developers eowgb— happening is that developers never cough up— happening is that developers never cough up the money. they say never cough up the money. they eoy bnob— never cough up the money. they eoy bbob bbey— never cough up the money. they say that they can't— never cough up the money. they say that they can't afford to do it. say that they can't afford to do bb. bbey— say that they can't afford to do it. they reduce— say that they can't afford to do it. they reduce the— say that they can't afford to do it. they reduce the amount of eoebob— it. they reduce the amount of social homes— it. they reduce the amount of social homes they build and beobbe—bo- social homes they build and| beobbe—bo-bn people can't afford to live in bboee— people can't afford to live in those houses— people can't afford to live in those houses-but. people can't afford to live in- those houses-but layla, those houses anyway. but layla, wben— those houses anyway. but layla, wben you— those houses anyway. but layla, when you were campaigning to win the by—election and

the by—election in chesham and amersham, because i live amersham, i know because i live nearby, on nearby, you kept on banging on about concreting over about the tories concreting over the countryside so people are confused equally in that by—election talked about by—election you talked about being hs2 , even though being anti hs2, even though nationally the party is for it. so which is it? you for so which is it? are you for housebuilding are you against housebuilding or are you against it hs2 or are you it? are you for hs2 or are you against it? well the so on hs2, the party continues to believe that whilst, you know, we need to make sure that we're delivering value for money for the taxpayers and sat on the pubuc the taxpayers and sat on the public accounts committee when we looked at this , we do need to we looked at this, we do need to keep of that. but broadly keep on top of that. but broadly we need— keep on top of that. but broadly we needleonny— keep on top of that. but broadly we need-carry on. _ keep on top of that. but broadly we need-carry on. but- keep on top of that. but broadly we need-carry on. but the- we need to carry on. but the bed— we need to carry on. but the boeob bbb— we need to carry on. but the boeob nb, oe— we need to carry on. but the local mp, as the— we need to carry on. but the local mp, as the tory mp did bebone— local mp, as the tory mp did bebone. boob— local mp, as the tory mp did before, took a— local mp, as the tory mp did before, took a different stance ond— before, took a different stance ond bnob— before, took a different stance and that that— before, took a different stance and that that-you . before, took a different stance- and that that-you know, and that that happens. you know, bbey— and that that happens. you know, bbey-eonnwnbby— and that that happens. you know, they community champions. they are community champions. bnob— they are community champions. bbob—be— they are community champions. bbob—belnobel that is their role is to make bnob— that is their role is to make sure that their— that is their role is to make sure that their communities are beond—b-wel sure that their communities arei beond—b-we eeb heard on housebuilding. i've set out heard on housebuilding. i've set owb bbe— heard on housebuilding. i've set out the position— heard on housebuilding. i've set out the position and i think the big out the position and i think the bbg bene— out the position and i think the big issue _that- out the position and i think the big issue _that is- out the position and i think the big issue that is the big issue here is that is the obbnooeb— big issue here is that is the obbnooeb bbe— big issue here is that is the approach the tories want to be deweboben— approach the tories want to be developer led. _ approach the tories want to be developer led. they want to give bben — developer led. they want to give bben bbe — developer led. they want to give them the power— developer led. they want to give them the power .— developer led. they want to give them the power . we want to give them the power. we want to give eonnnnbbbee— them the power. we want to give communities-power- them the power. we want to give communities power. and communities that power. and by the communities that power. and by bbe-bbe— communities that power. and by the -the evidence- communities that power. and by the the evidence that the way, the evidence shows that wben— the way, the evidence shows that wben we — the way, the evidence shows that wben we do — the way, the evidence shows that when we do that,— the way, the evidence shows that when we do that, more houses are bnbbb. — when we do that, more houses are bnbbb. -bbonb— when we do that, more houses are built. _thank you- when we do that, more houses are built. _thank you very,- built. layla, thank you very,

very indeed for bearing very much indeed for bearing with us this morning our with us this morning with our technical difficulties. lovely to the show. so now to have you on the show. so now i'm going to straight i'm going to go straight to steve the health steve barclay, now the health secretary mp secretary and conservative mp for east for the north east cambridgeshire region. steve lovely to see you. thanks for joining me on today's show. so, look, can we have a quick word on good morning. on france? good morning. obviously, are still riots obviously, there are still riots going on across channel. is going on across the channel. is it safe country return it a safe country to return migrants to ? yes, it is. i mean, migrants to? yes, it is. i mean, bbe— migrants to? yes, it is. i mean, bbe bonebgn— migrants to? yes, it is. i mean, the foreign office— migrants to? yes, it is. i mean, the foreign office will- g l7 yes, it is. i mean, the foreign office will be eboeeby— the foreign office will be closely monitoring the situation in closely monitoring the situation bn bonee— closely monitoring the situation bn bonee bon— closely monitoring the situation in france for anyone on bnoboebng— in france for anyone on bnoboebng bo— in france for anyone on proposing to travel there and wbbb— proposing to travel there and wbbb ony— proposing to travel there and with any concerns should just bobbow— with any concerns should just bobbow bbe— with any concerns should just follow the guidance that will be on bbe— follow the guidance that will be on bbe beo— follow the guidance that will be on the fco website. so they will be beebbng— on the fco website. so they will be beebbng o— on the fco website. so they will be keeping a close— on the fco website. so they will be keeping a close eye on bnoeeedbnge— be keeping a close eye on proceedings and keeping that gnbdonee— proceedings and keeping that guidance regularly updated . ' ”bi guidance regularly updated. are you guidance regularly updated. are yon webbed— guidance regularly updated. are you worried about— guidance regularly updated. are you worried about the- guidance regularly updated. are you worried about the cost- guidance regularly updated. are you worried about the cost of the rwanda scheme? £169,000 apparently to send a migrant out to rwanda? meanwhile, you've got doctors and nurses striking over pay doctors and nurses striking over pay. well, doctors and nurses striking over pay . well, the cost needs to be pay. well, the cost needs to be boobed— pay. well, the cost needs to be boobed bn— pay. well, the cost needs to be looked in the— pay. well, the cost needs to be looked in the round— well, the cost needs to be looked in the round in terms of

the deterrence— looked in the round in terms of the deterrence effect as well ond— the deterrence effect as well ond wbob— the deterrence effect as well and what the _ the deterrence effect as well and what the assessments suggest is if and what the assessments suggest be b nobbbng— and what the assessments suggest is if nothing was— and what the assessments suggest is if nothing was done, the cost eonbd— is if nothing was done, the cost could escalate— is if nothing was done, the cost could escalate at— is if nothing was done, the cost could escalate at as high as £11 bbbbbon— could escalate at as high as £11 bbbbon. so— could escalate at as high as £11 billion. so it's— could escalate at as high as £11 billion. so it's important that we do— billion. so it's important that we do oeb— billion. so it's important that we do act. that— billion. so it's important that we do act. that is why we put in bboee— we do act. that is why we put in bboee bbe— we do act. that is why we put in place the legislation to take oebbon— place the legislation to take oebbon on— place the legislation to take action on this. _ place the legislation to take action on this. i— place the legislation to take action on this. i think people weny— action on this. i think people weny ebeon— action on this. i think people are very clear when i speak to bben. — are very clear when i speak to bben. bbey— are very clear when i speak to them. they want— are very clear when i speak to them. they want the boat ebobbed. — them. they want the boat stopped. that's why the prime nbnbeben— stopped. that's why the prime minister made— stopped. that's why the prime minister made it— stopped. that's why the prime minister made it one of his five key minister made it one of his five bey bnonbbee— minister made it one of his five bey bnonbbee .— minister made it one of his five key priorities , and— minister made it one of his five key priorities , and that is what key priorities, and that is what dobng— key priorities, and that is what we're doing now.— key priorities, and that is what we're doing now. the high court enbbonbed— we're doing now. the high court supported government on this supported the government on this .-bond— supported the government on this --bord ebbeb— supported the government on this .-lord chief justice— . the lord chief justice enbbonbed— . the lord chief justice supported the government in the eonnb— supported the government in the eonnblbbbeob — supported the government in the court-appeal. but— supported the government in the court appeal. but two of the court of appeal. but two of the indgee— court of appeal. but two of the indgee don-b.— court of appeal. but two of the judges didn't. now we respect the judges didn't. now we respect bbe eonb.— judges didn't. now we respect bbe eonb-gob- judges didn't. now we respect the court. got best the court. we've got the best indbbony— the court. we've got the best judiciary-world- the court. we've got the best judiciary-world in- the court. we've got the best judiciary world in the judiciary in the world in the bb — judiciary in the world in the bb we— judiciary in the world in the uk. we respect— judiciary in the world in the uk. we respect their decision bnb— uk. we respect their decision bnb we— uk. we respect their decision bnb we do— uk. we respect their decision on. but we do think that this ebonbd— on. but we do think that this now should go— on. but we do think that this now should go to— on. but we do think that this now should go to the supreme conn— now should go to the supreme eonnb ond— now should go to the supreme eonnb ond bbbe— now should go to the supreme court and it's right. we take oebbon— court and it's right. we take oebbon bo— court and it's right. we take action to stop— court and it's right. we take action to stop the boats. that is action to stop the boats. that be wbob— action to stop the boats. that be wbob we-ne— action to stop the boats. that is what we're determined to do. be— is what we're determined to do. be ebne— is what we're determined to do. the prime minister has made it a key the prime minister has made it a by bnonby— the prime minister has made it a by bnonby ond— the prime minister has made it a key priority and that's what we're working— key priority and that's what we're working on. but the rwanda bbon— we're working on. but the rwanda bbon den-b— we're working on. but the rwanda plan isn't working— we're working on. but the rwanda plan isn't working is it? plan isn't working yet, is it? beeonee— plan isn't working yet, is it? because nobody's— plan isn't working yet, is it? because nobody's been- plan isn't working yet, is it? because nobody's been deported? there the boats aren't being there so the boats aren't being stopped they're coming. stopped. they're still coming. debtis

stopped. they're still coming. debt is now 100% of gdp. inflation is almost 9. nhs waiting lists remain eye wateringly high. which of the government's five promises made by the pm in january will it actually keep by the end of the year ? well , the rwanda policy year? well, the rwanda policy den-b— year? well, the rwanda policy ben-b bbe— year? well, the rwanda policy ben-b bbe onby— «wily? ”7 well, the rwanda policy isn't the only aspect of ebobbbng— isn't the only aspect of stopping tbe- isn't the only aspect of stopping the boats . there's stopping the boats. there's bbbnge— stopping the boats. there's bbbnge bbbe— stopping the boats. there's things like the— stopping the boats. there's things like the returns deal wbbb— things like the returns deal with albania— things like the returns deal with albania ,— things like the returns deal with albania , which has had a with albania, which has had a dnonobb— with albania, which has had a dramatic effect— with albania, which has had a dramatic effect in— with albania, which has had a dramatic effect in reducing the nnben— dramatic effect in reducing the nnben ob— dramatic effect in reducing the number of albanians coming across on small— number of albanians coming across on small boats. but we do bbbnb— across on small boats. but we do bbbnb bbbe— across on small boats. but we do think it's important— across on small boats. but we do think it's important in terms of debennenee— think it's important in terms of debennenee .— think it's important in terms of deterrence . us— think it's important in terms of deterrence . us that's why the deterrence. us that's why the den— deterrence. us that's why the deob boe— deterrence. us that's why the deal has been— deterrence. us that's why the deal has been reached. we're going— deal has been reached. we're gobng bo— deal has been reached. we're gobng bo beeb— deal has been reached. we're going to test that now in the snbnene— going to test that now in the supreme court— going to test that now in the supreme court .— going to test that now in the supreme court . as i say, the supreme court. as i say, the bbgb— supreme court. as i say, the bbgb eonnb— supreme court. as i say, the high court supported the government— high court supported the government on it. and i think yonn— government on it. and i think yonn wewene— government on it. and i think your viewers want— government on it. and i think your viewers want the government to your viewers want the government bo bobe— your viewers want the government bo bobe oebbon. — your viewers want the government to take action. that— your viewers want the government to take action. that is what dobng— to take action. that is what dobng .— to take action. that is what we're doing . we're doing so in we're doing. we're doing so in a way— we're doing. we're doing so in a woy-ebeonby— we're doing. we're doing so in a way clearly complies with way that clearly complies with the way that clearly complies with bbe begob— way that clearly complies with the legal process.— way that clearly complies with the legal process. but it's bnbonbonb— the legal process. but it's important we— the legal process. but it's important we now take this to the important we now take this to bbe-eonnb.- important we now take this to bbe-eonnb. bbe- important we now take this to the court, the prime the supreme court, the prime nbnbeben.— the supreme court, the prime minister, the— the supreme court, the prime minister, the home secretary are debennbned— minister, the home secretary are determined—boats. . determined to stop the boats. and— determined to stop the boats. and b— determined to stop the boats. and bidon-b— determined to stop the boats. and bidon-b .— determined to stop the boats. and if don't , then there'll and if we don't, then there'll be o— and if we don't, then there'll be o bnge— and if we don't, then there'll be a huge cost.— and if we don't, then there'll be a huge cost. and of course bobonn— be a huge cost. and of course bobonn bowe— be a huge cost. and of course labour have no— be a huge cost. and of course labour have no plan at all in benne— labour have no plan at all in terms-rishi— labour have no plan at all in terms rishi sunak, keir terms of rishi sunak, keir ebonnen—

terms of rishi sunak, keir starmer proposals terms of rishi sunak, keir starmer-proposals do starmer has no proposals to do so starmer has no proposals to do eo . eboy. — starmer has no proposals to do eo . oboy. bnob— starmer has no proposals to do so . okay. that may- starmer has no proposals to do so . okay. ” so. okay. that may be a fair point, but rishi sunak has come up with this five point plan of deliverables and he can't deliverables and he can't deliver them well . we're making deliver them well. we're making bnogneee. — deliver them well. we're making bnogneee. b— deliver them well. we're making bnogneee. b we— deliver them well. we're making progress. if we look— deliver them well. we're making progress. if we look at- 2bi we're making progress. if we look at the one bnob— progress. if we look at the one bbob ebbe— progress. if we look at the one that sits with— progress. if we look at the one that sits with me,— progress. if we look at the one that sits with me, camilla, in benne— that sits with me, camilla, in benne ob— that sits with me, camilla, in terms of waiting— that sits with me, camilla, in terms of waiting times , we had terms of waiting times, we had a bbon— terms of waiting times, we had a bbon bo— terms of waiting times, we had a bbon bo oddneee— terms of waiting times, we had a plan to address the— terms of waiting times, we had a plan to address the longest wobbe— plan to address the longest wobbe. bbe— plan to address the longest waits, the two— plan to address the longest waits, the two year waits last summer, we virtually eliminated bboee.— summer, we virtually eliminated bboee. enn— summer, we virtually eliminated those. our next— summer, we virtually eliminated those. our next target was to oddneee— those. our next target was to oddneee bbe — those. our next target was to address the 18— those. our next target was to address the 18 month waits. we got address the 18 month waits. we gob bboee— address the 18 month waits. we gob bboee oven— address the 18 month waits. we got those over 90% of those ebeoned— got those over 90% of those ebeoned onb. — got those over 90% of those cleared out. by— got those over 90% of those cleared out. by the end of dooneb— cleared out. by the end of boneb. we— cleared out. by the end of march, we would have cleared bben.— march, we would have cleared bben. bnb— march, we would have cleared bben. bnb bon— march, we would have cleared them, but for the _ march, we would have cleared them, but for the industrial oebbon.— them, but for the industrial oebbon. bnb— them, but for the industrial action. but we— them, but for the industrial action. but we made huge bnogneee. — action. but we made huge bnogneee. be— action. but we made huge progress. 8 action. but we made huge progress. 3 3 action. but we made huge- progress. 18 months or 18 months of the nhs , 18 months at the end of the nhs, 18 months at the end of the nhs, 18 months at the end of march, we cleared those over 90% of the 18 month waits. by the end of march 18 months. if you— the end of march 18 months. if yon eonbnoeb— the end of march 18 months. if you contrast that— the end of march 18 months. if you contrast that with labour's benonbnonee — you contrast that with labour's benonnnoneeb .— you contrast that with labour's performance , of— you contrast that with labour's performance , of course it is. performance, of course it is. bnb— performance, of course it is. bnb b— performance, of course it is. bnb b yon— performance, of course it is. but if you contrast that with bbe— but if you contrast that with the performance of the nhs in wobee.— the performance of the nhs in wobee. wbene— the performance of the nhs in wales, where it's— the performance of the nhs in wales, where it's run by the bobonn— wales, where it's run by the labour government, there's over beeoe— labour government, there's over beeoe beobbe— labour government, there's over 70,000 people waiting more than 18 70,000 people waiting more than be nonbbe. — 70,000 people waiting more than be nonbbe. ab— 70,000 people waiting more than 18 months. at the— 70,000 people waiting more than 18 months. at the end of march,

ond— 18 months. at the end of march, ond bnobbe— 18 months. at the end of march, and that's with— 18 months. at the end of march, and that's with a— 18 months. at the end of march, and that's with a population 18 bbnee— and that's with a population 18 times smaller— and that's with a population 18 times smaller than that of bngbond. — times smaller than that of bngbond. so— times smaller than that of england. so the my colleague abnn— england. so the my colleague abnn eobne— england. so the my colleague alun cairns has— england. so the my colleague alun cairns has made that. we're wonbbng— alun cairns has made that. we're wonbbng bbnongb— alun cairns has made that. we're working through that yet. but the working through that yet. but bbe bbs— working through that yet. but the nhs target— working through that yet. but the nhs target for— working through that yet. but the nhs target for waiting or being treated within 18 weeks is 92. currently only 58% are being treated within 18 weeks. so you're failing miserably on that target. well, you're failing miserably on that target . well, we had , as viewers target. well, we had, as viewers know.— target. well, we had, as viewers bnow. o— target. well, we had, as viewers know, a pandemic— 3 well, we had, as viewers know, a pandemic that has eneobed— know, a pandemic that has created huge— know, a pandemic that has created huge backlogs . that is created huge backlogs. that is wbob— created huge backlogs. that is wbob be— created huge backlogs. that is what is taking— created huge backlogs. that is what is taking time to work bbnongb. — what is taking time to work through. we're— what is taking time to work through. we're innovating in dobng— through. we're innovating in dobng eo— through. we're innovating in doing so, things like patient ebobe— doing so, things like patient ebobe. bbe— doing so, things like patient choice, the patients association say choice, the patients association eoy gbvbng— choice, the patients association say giving patients choice to go to say giving patients choice to go bo ebonben— say giving patients choice to go to shorter waits— say giving patients choice to go to shorter waits in— say giving patients choice to go to shorter waits in other boebbobe— to shorter waits in other hospitals, making that decision ebonb— hospitals, making that decision easier. about 76%_ hospitals, making that decision easier. about 76% of patients are easier. about 76% of patients wbbbbng— easier. about 76% of patients are willing to— easier. about 76% of patients are willing to travel a little if are willing to travel a little b b— are willing to travel a little if it reduces— are willing to travel a little if it reduces their time . now, if it reduces their time. now, bbe— if it reduces their time. now, the patients— if it reduces their time. now, the patients association says bnob— the patients association says bbob wbbb— the patients association says that will reduce— the patients association says that will reduce times by around bbee— that will reduce times by around bbnee nonbbe— that will reduce times by around three months. we're looking at the independent— three months. we're looking at the independent sector. there's a the independent sector. there's oeoboebby— the independent sector. there's o eoboebby bnob— the independent sector. there's a capacity that we _ the independent sector. there's a capacity that we can better wbbb— a capacity that we can better use within the— a capacity that we can better use within the independent eeeobn — use within the independent eeeobn so — use within the independent sector. so making that available,— sector. so making that available, we're fast tracking bbbnge— available, we're fast tracking bbbnge bbe— available, we're fast tracking things like our— available, we're fast tracking

things like our community dbognoebbe— things like our community diagnostics centres. we've got boe— diagnostics centres. we've got be now— diagnostics centres. we've got boo oben.— diagnostics centres. we've got 108 now open. they've delivered for 108 now open. they've delivered bon nbbbon— 108 now open. they've delivered for million more— 108 now open. they've delivered for million more tests and scans. we're planning to do 160 in scans. we're planning to do 160 bn obb — scans. we're planning to do 160 bn obb and— scans. we're planning to do 160 in all. and we're— scans. we're planning to do 160 in all. and we're also looking at in all. and we're also looking ob bow— in all. and we're also looking ob bow we— in all. and we're also looking ob bow we geb— in all. and we're also looking at how we get treatment to beobbe— at how we get treatment to beobbe gnbben— at how we get treatment to people quicker. so 43 new or eobonded— people quicker. so 43 new or expanded surgical hubs. so we're bnveebbng— expanded surgical hubs. so we're bnveebbng oven— expanded surgical hubs. so we're investing over £5— expanded surgical hubs. so we're investing over £5 billion in our eobbbob— investing over £5 billion in our capital programme . on electives, capital programme. on electives, boobbng— capital programme. on electives, boobbng ob— capital programme. on electives, boobbng ob bow— capital programme. on electives, looking at how we— capital programme. on electives, looking at how we get more of bboee— looking at how we get more of those diagnostic— looking at how we get more of those diagnostic centres in bboee.— those diagnostic centres in bboee. bbe— those diagnostic centres in place, the surgical hubs are oben— place, the surgical hubs are oben ond— place, the surgical hubs are open and that— place, the surgical hubs are open and that in turn is bnbngbng— open and that in turn is bringing the— open and that in turn is bringing the backlogs down. but it bringing the backlogs down. but bb doee— bringing the backlogs down. but bb doee bobe— bringing the backlogs down. but it does take time.— bringing the backlogs down. but it does take time. that's why we're focussed_ it does take time. that's why we're focussed first on the bongeeb— we're focussed first on the longest waits— we're focussed first on the longest waits ,— we're focussed first on the longest waits , and if you look longest waits, and if you look at longest waits, and if you look ob bbe— longest waits, and if you look at the progress— longest waits, and if you look at the progress we're making in bngbond— at the progress we're making in england compared to that of the bobonn— england compared to that of the bobonn nn— england compared to that of the labour run wales— england compared to that of the labour run wales ,— england compared to that of the labour run wales , it just shows labour run wales, it just shows wben— labour run wales, it just shows wben beb— labour run wales, it just shows when keir starmer— labour run wales, it just shows when keir starmer says he wants wobee— when keir starmer says he wants wobee bo— when keir starmer says he wants wobee bo be— when keir starmer says he wants wales to be the— when keir starmer says he wants wales to be the blueprint for his administration . you can look his administration. you can look at his administration. you can look ob bneb— his administration. you can look at their performance in wales ond— at their performance in wales ond eee— at their performance in wales ond wbob— at their performance in wales and see what that would mean for the and see what that would mean for bbe wbs— and see what that would mean for bbe wbs bn— and see what that would mean for the nhs in england— and see what that would mean for the nhs in england and it eonbnoebe— the nhs in england and it contrasts with— the nhs in england and it contrasts with this week when we've announced— contrasts with this week when we've announced the biggest ever eboonebn— we've announced the biggest ever eboonebn bn— we've announced the biggest ever expansion in the— we've announced the biggest ever expansion in the workforce bnobnbng— expansion in the workforce bnobnbng ob— expansion in the workforce training of the— expansion in the workforce training of the nhs with £2.4 bbbbon. — training of the nhs with £2.4 billion. let's— training of the nhs with £2.4 billion. let's get— training of the nhs with £2.4 billion. gig bi“ training of the nhs with £2.4 billion. 2dbi. billion. let's get on to that historic moment that gives the

sustainability for the nhs . sustainability for the nhs. let's get on to that because one of our people's panellists has asked a very legitimate question. i think why has it taken so long to come up taken you so long to come up with this plan? you've been in power for 13 years . well, power for 13 years. well, there's much— power for 13 years. well, there's much we've- �*ls «bbie”; well, there's much we've been doing dnnbng— there's much we've been doing dnnbng bnob— there's much we've been doing during that time.— there's much we've been doing during that time. when i was boeb— during that time. when i was boeb bn— during that time. when i was last in parliament five years ago,— last in parliament five years ogo. we— last in parliament five years ago, we expanded medical undergraduate— ago, we expanded medical undergraduate training by 25. we still undergraduate training by 25. we ebbbb bod— undergraduate training by 25. we ebbbb bod o— undergraduate training by 25. we still had a massive shortfall in ebob— still had a massive shortfall in ebob bn— still had a massive shortfall in ebob bn ond— still had a massive shortfall in staff in and you've got massive bnobbene— staff in and you've got massive bnobbene wbbb— staff in and you've got massive problems with retaining so . but, problems with retaining so. but, eobbbo— problems with retaining so. but, eonbbbo. yonn— problems with retaining so. but, camilla, your question is why are we starting— camilla, your question is why are we starting now? what i'm bobnbbng— are we starting now? what i'm bobnbbng bo— are we starting now? what i'm bobnbbng bo bbe— are we starting now? what i'm pointing to the fact is we did in pointing to the fact is we did bn baa,— pointing to the fact is we did bn zebe. b.— pointing to the fact is we did in 2018, 19, expand doctor bnobnbng— in 2018, 19, expand doctor bnobnbng by— in 2018, 19, expand doctor training by 25.— in 2018, 19, expand doctor training by 25. we opened five nedbob— training by 25. we opened five new medical schools in those bone— new medical schools in those bonbe ob— new medical schools in those bone of bbe— new medical schools in those parts of the country that often bonnd— parts of the country that often bonnd bb— parts of the country that often found it hardest— parts of the country that often found it hardest to recruit . in found it hardest to recruit. in our manifesto— found it hardest to recruit. in our manifesto in— found it hardest to recruit. in our manifesto in 2019, we eonnbbbed— our manifesto in 2019, we committed to— our manifesto in 2019, we committed to 50,000 more nurses. we-ne— committed to 50,000 more nurses. web on— committed to 50,000 more nurses. web on boeb— committed to 50,000 more nurses. we're on track to— committed to 50,000 more nurses. we're on track to deliver that wbbb— we're on track to deliver that wbbb bboee.— we're on track to deliver that with 44,000. now we also, in the nonbeebo— with 44,000. now we also, in the manifesto said— with 44,000. now we also, in the manifesto said we— with 44,000. now we also, in the manifesto said we would hire more specialists— manifesto said we would hire more specialists into primary

care, a commitment to 26,000 oddbbbonob— care, a commitment to 26,000 additional roles.— care, a commitment to 26,000 additional roles. actually, we've smashed that with 29,000 now recruited,— we've smashed that with 29,000 now recruited, which means for bobbenbe— now recruited, which means for patients wanting— now recruited, which means for patients wanting to see someone in patients wanting to see someone bn bbe— patients wanting to see someone bn bbe eb— patients wanting to see someone bn bbe en enngeny— patients wanting to see someone in the gp surgery, they can get bo bbe— in the gp surgery, they can get access to the specialist at obben— access to the specialist at often quicker.— access to the specialist at often quicker. that frees the gp up often quicker. that frees the gp nb bo— often quicker. that frees the gp nb bo do— often quicker. that frees the gp nb bo do bboee— often quicker. that frees the gp up to do those roles that only bbe— up to do those roles that only bbe eb— up to do those roles that only bbe ebb eon— up to do those roles that only the gp can do.— up to do those roles that only the gp can do. but it's also bben— the gp can do. but it's also bben obonb— the gp can do. but it's also then about using our wider ebbbbe— then about using our wider skills force— then about using our wider skills force in— then about using our wider skills force in the nhs. so our bbonnoey— skills force in the nhs. so our bbonnoey bneb— skills force in the nhs. so our pharmacy first programme where bbonnoebee— pharmacy first programme where pharmacies will— pharmacy first programme where pharmacies will be able to bneeenbbe— pharmacies will be able to prescribe seven— pharmacies will be able to prescribe seven antibiotics, antibiotics— prescribe seven antibiotics, antibiotics over— prescribe seven antibiotics, antibiotics over seven different eondbbbone— antibiotics over seven different conditions, is— antibiotics over seven different conditions, is also— antibiotics over seven different conditions, is also about saying gob— conditions, is also about saying gob bbbe— conditions, is also about saying we've got this pharmacy network wbbb— we've got this pharmacy network wbbeb we— we've got this pharmacy network wbbeb we eon— we've got this pharmacy network which we can make more use of. so which we can make more use of. so bbene-e— which we can make more use of. so bbene-e o— which we can make more use of. so there's a lot— which we can make more use of. so there's a lot that— which we can make more use of. so there's a lot that we're obeody— so there's a lot that we're already doing.— so there's a lot that we're already doing. so some people, e-onnego— already doing. so some people, some go pharmacies already doing. so some people,- some-golpharmacies and some people go to pharmacies and bbbn— some people go to pharmacies and bbb—bo— some people go to pharmacies and bbb—be be— some people go to pharmacies and fifth—to be fair,- some people go to pharmacies and fifth—to be fair, mr- fifth birthday. to be fair, mr barclay example from barclay had an example from somebody who my somebody i know who works at my station cafe, went to the station cafe, who went to the pharmacy, wanted to get something done to ear, and something done to his ear, and the pharmacy referred him the pharmacy then referred him back the doctors. then back to the doctors. and then the we haven't got the doctor said, we haven't got time here. and of time for you here. and then of course, up at a&e. course, he ended up at a&e. that's happening. and that's happening. the length and breadth i see it breadth of the country. i see it myself as a mother. when's the

last time you used the nhs? well , my last time you used the nhs? well, my family use the nhs all the well, my family use the nhs all bbe bne— well, my family use the nhs all be be bneb— well, my family use the nhs all the time. just so— well, my family use the nhs all the time. just so you'll have eeen—bobby. l the time. just so you'll have seen—family. so seen the problem. family. so. so so. seen the problem. family. so. so so. so— seen the problem. family. so. so so. so we— seen the problem. family. so. so so. so we ne— seen the problem. family. so. so so. so we use the— seen the problem. family. so. so so. so we use the family as webb— so. so we use the family as webb bnb— so. so we use the family as well. but just— so. so we use the family as well. but just to— so. so we use the family as well. but just to take your ebobbb— well. but just to take your exonbbe. yon— well. but just to take your example, you just said about bbonnoey.— example, you just said about bbonnoey. bnob— example, you just said about pharmacy, that is exactly the bobnb— pharmacy, that is exactly the bobnb ob— pharmacy, that is exactly the bobnb ob bbe — pharmacy, that is exactly the point of the £600 million investment— point of the £600 million investment in— point of the £600 million investment in our primary care eveny— investment in our primary care eeoveny bbon.— investment in our primary care recovery plan, which is about eoybng—eon- recovery plan, which is about eoybng—eon we- recovery plan, which is about saying—can we do| recovery plan, which is about. saying—can we do in saying what more can we do in bbonnoebee— saying what more can we do in pharmaciesithat's- saying what more can we do in pharmacies that's because pharmacies? that's because they are more accessible. so we are much more accessible. so we are much more accessible. so we gobng— are much more accessible. so we gobng bo— are much more accessible. so we gobng bo bnbng— are much more accessible. so we are going to bring in that obbbbby— are going to bring in that ability pharmacists to ability for pharmacists to bneeenbbe— ability for pharmacists to prescribe antibiotics to seven eondbbbone— prescribe antibiotics to seven conditions to— prescribe antibiotics to seven conditions to be— prescribe antibiotics to seven conditions to be able to do bbbnge— conditions to be able to do bbbnge bbbe— conditions to be able to do things like blood pressure ebeebe— things like blood pressure ebeebe bo— things like blood pressure checks to have— things like blood pressure checks to have available oral contraception.— checks to have available oral contraception. so _ checks to have available oral contraception. so people don't need— contraception. so people don't need bo— contraception. so people don't need bo go— contraception. so people don't need bo go ond— contraception. so people don't need to go and see the gp for bboee— need to go and see the gp for bboee eonb— need to go and see the gp for bboee eonb ob— need to go and see the gp for those sort of services. that's bbe— those sort of services. that's the longest you've ever waiting out treatment. we're using the bb— out treatment. we're using the we obb. — out treatment. we're using the we obb. webb— out treatment. we're using the we obb. webb oe— out treatment. we're using the nhs app. well as i— we're using the nhs app. well as i say, my bobby— nhs app. well as i say, my bonbby ne— nhs app. well as i say, my family use the— nhs app. well as i say, my family use the nhs. i'm the bobben— family use the nhs. i'm the bobben ob— family use the nhs. i'm the father of two _ family use the nhs. i'm the father of two young children be— father of two young children like families— father of two young children like families watching this, we bbe— like families watching this, we bbe wbs— like families watching this, we use the nhs in— like families watching this, we use the nhs in exactly the way bnob— use the nhs in exactly the way bbob obbene— use the nhs in exactly the way that others have— use the nhs in exactly the way that others have private cover as that others have private cover oe webb — that others have private cover as well. we're— that others have private cover as well. we're doing is eobondbng— as well. we're doing is expanding our capacity. no i don-b.— expanding our capacity. no i don-b. we— expanding our capacity. no i don-b. we oe— expanding our capacity. no i don't. we are expanding the

eoboebby— don't. we are expanding the capacity within— don't. we are expanding the capacity within the nhs , making capacity within the nhs, making ob— capacity within the nhs, making more of our use— capacity within the nhs, making more of our use of— capacity within the nhs, making more of our use of pharmacy, nobbng— more of our use of pharmacy, nobbng nnnoe— more of our use of pharmacy, nobbng ob— more of our use of pharmacy, making more of our use of additional— making more of our use of additional roles— making more of our use of additional roles in primary bnob— additional roles in primary care. that in— additional roles in primary care. that in turn takes pressure off— care. that in turn takes pressure off the gps. and we're obeo— pressure off the gps. and we're obeo boobbng— pressure off the gps. and we're also looking at— pressure off the gps. and we're also looking at how we better use technology— also looking at how we better use technology as well. so the bbb — use technology as well. so the bbb bbondoy— use technology as well. so the atm monday morning rushed the engoged— atm monday morning rushed the engoged bone— atm monday morning rushed the engaged tone using digital bebebbony— engaged tone using digital telephony for— engaged tone using digital telephony for example, to expand that telephony for example, to expand bbob onbbne— telephony for example, to expand that online booking using the bb— that online booking using the we obb. — that online booking using the we obb. so— that online booking using the nhs app. so we're innovating to nobe— nhs app. so we're innovating to nobe bb— nhs app. so we're innovating to make it easier— nhs app. so we're innovating to make it easier for— nhs app. so we're innovating to make it easier for patients to get— make it easier for patients to geb bbe— make it easier for patients to geb bbe ngbb— make it easier for patients to get the right care as soon as boeebbbe— get the right care as soon as possible rather— get the right care as soon as possible rather than necessarily evenybbbng— possible rather than necessarily evenybbbng bebng— possible rather than necessarily everything being through the gp. and bnob— everything being through the gp. and bbob bn— everything being through the gp. and that in turn— everything being through the gp. and that in turn frees the gp's bne— and that in turn frees the gp's bbne nb— and that in turn frees the gp's bbne nb bon— and that in turn frees the gp's time up for those— and that in turn frees the gp's time up for those areas where it odde— time up for those areas where it odde boeb— time up for those areas where it adds most value— time up for those areas where it adds most value . _ time up for those areas where it adds most value . adds most value. health secretary i'm very grateful for your time this morning and i'm glad hear that your family glad to hear that your family may be watching. gb news lovely to to you. well, coming up to speak to you. well, coming up after the break, i'm going to be speaking about to people speaking about rwanda to people on the on different sides of the argument. lord carlisle, who's tabled an amendment against the illegal migration bill and daniel is very daniel kawczynski, who is very much of deporting to much in favour of deporting to africa . oh, don't go away. i'll africa. oh, don't go away. i'll

be

every sunday at 6:00 for gloria beebe— every sunday at 6:00 for gloria bbeebe. enby— every sunday at 6:00 for gloria bbeebe. enby on— every sunday at 6:00 for gloria meets. only on gb— every sunday at 6:00 for gloria meets. only on gb news, bnbbobn-e— meets. only on gb news, britain's news— meets. only on gb news, britain's news .- meets. only on gb news, britain's news. channel meets. only on gb news, britain's news . channel l britain's news. channel welcome boeb— britain's news. channel welcome boeb bo— britain's news. channel welcome boeb be be— britain's news. channel welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now rwanda and the rwanda plan has dominated the news agenda all week. after yet another court intervention on stopping the deportation of migrants to africa. i'm joined now by daniel kawczynski. he is the tory mp for shrewsbury and atcham. he's also britain's tallest mp. how tall are you, daniel? six foot nine. well, why not? it must be. what do people

say to you? is it is it cloudy up there? let's speak about it. first of all, the rwanda plan. i mean, it's not going to plan, is it? they can't get anybody deported out there. we've got constant interventions by your colleague alun cairns, calls them lefty lawyers . we did have them lefty lawyers. we did have a barrister on the people's panel who's right wing and still thinks it's a bad idea. it's the whole thing just doomed to failure should give on failure should they give up on it? well, if you could, if you eonbd— it? well, if you could, if you could listen— it? well, if you could, if you could listen to— it? well, if you could, if you could listen to a— .7 well, if you could, if you could listen to a constituent s in could listen to a constituent s bn ny— could listen to a constituent s in my constituency of shrewsbury or in my constituency of shrewsbury on ony— in my constituency of shrewsbury on ony obben— in my constituency of shrewsbury or any other constituency, when nnenneneb— or any other constituency, when nnenneneb ob— or any other constituency, when members of parliament go back to bneb— members of parliament go back to their constituencies— members of parliament go back to their constituencies on the weekend.— their constituencies on the weekend, the _ their constituencies on the weekend, the palpable anger of the electorate— weekend, the palpable anger of the electorate on— weekend, the palpable anger of the electorate on this issue is so the electorate on this issue is eo bnobonnd— the electorate on this issue is so profound that— the electorate on this issue is so profound that the government has so profound that the government boe no— so profound that the government boe no obbbon— so profound that the government has no option but— so profound that the government has no option but on the issue or has no option but on the issue on bbe— has no option but on the issue or the government's mishandling of or the government's mishandling oebbe— or the government's mishandling of bbe beene— or the government's mishandling of the issue or— or the government's mishandling of the issue or both— or the government's mishandling of the issue or both . on the of the issue or both. on the beene— of the issue or both. on the ob— of the issue or both. on the issue of wanting— of the issue or both. on the issue of wanting the issue neeobved— issue of wanting the issue neeobved by— issue of wanting the issue resolved by british people, i mean, as you know, i'm in the nbgnonb— mean, as you know, i'm in the nbgnonb ob— mean, as you know, i'm in the migrant of this— mean, as you know, i'm in the migrant of this country myself. bnnbgnobbon— migrant of this country myself. immigration has— migrant of this country myself. immigration has contributed a bnge— immigration has contributed a bnge onnonnb— immigration has contributed a huge amount to— immigration has contributed a huge amount to the united bbngdon— huge amount to the united bbngdon ond— huge amount to the united kingdom and i— huge amount to the united kingdom and i think most british

beobbe— kingdom and i think most british beobbe eeognbee— kingdom and i think most british people recognise size how bnbonbonb— people recognise size how important immigration is , what important immigration is, what bbey— important immigration is, what bbey don-b— important immigration is, what they don't want,— important immigration is, what they don't want, and they refuse to they don't want, and they refuse bo bobenobe— they don't want, and they refuse bo bobenobe be— they don't want, and they refuse to tolerate is criminal gangs nobbng— to tolerate is criminal gangs making hundreds of millions of dobbone— making hundreds of millions of dobbone eveny— making hundreds of millions of dollars every year— making hundreds of millions of dollars every year in illegally bnonebonbbng— dollars every year in illegally transporting people. they want bnob— transporting people. they want bbob beene— transporting people. they want that issue resolved and it's veny— that issue resolved and it's veny eoey— that issue resolved and it's veny eoey bon— that issue resolved and it's very easy for members of the bone— very easy for members of the bonee ob— very easy for members of the house of lords— very easy for members of the house of lords and others and indgee— house of lords and others and indgee ond— house of lords and others and judges and others— house of lords and others and judges and others to obviously try judges and others to obviously bny bo— judges and others to obviously bny bo nobe— judges and others to obviously try to make the— judges and others to obviously try to make the situation more eonbbex— try to make the situation more eonbbex ond— try to make the situation more complex and difficult . but they complex and difficult. but they don-b— complex and difficult. but they donbb nove— complex and difficult. but they don't have the— complex and difficult. but they don't have the electorate to boee. — don't have the electorate to boee. and— don't have the electorate to face. and unless— don't have the electorate to face. and unless we resolve this beene— face. and unless we resolve this bebone— face. and unless we resolve this bebone on— face. and unless we resolve this issue before or demonstrate that we gobng— issue before or demonstrate that we gobng bbe— issue before or demonstrate that we are going the extra mile, bo— we are going the extra mile, bo bbe— we are going the extra mile, even to the supreme court, even if even to the supreme court, even b b— even to the supreme court, even b bb eone— even to the supreme court, even if it means leaving— even to the supreme court, even if it means leaving the european eonnb— if it means leaving the european eonnb. even— if it means leaving the european eonnb. bbe— if it means leaving the european court, even the european convention— court, even the european convention of— court, even the european convention of human rights. lbbib convention of human rights. do you convention of human rights. d0 yon wonb— convention of human rights. d0 yon wonb bo— convention of human rights. do you want to leave— convention of human rights. do you want to leave the— convention of human rights. bbib you want to leave the echr? well, if we're pushed to it, if bnebed— well, if we're pushed to it, if we're pushed to— well, if we're pushed to it, if we're pushed to it, wouldn't bnob— we're pushed to it, wouldn't bbob neon— we're pushed to it, wouldn't bbob o— we're pushed to it, wouldn't that mean a huge erosion of our bnbon— that mean a huge erosion of our bnnon nbgbbe— that mean a huge erosion of our human rights and— that mean a huge erosion of our human rights and everything we ebond—bebng- human rights and everything we ebond—bebng o- human rights and everything we stand being a kind of stand for and us being a kind of gbobob— stand for and us being a kind of gbobob beoden— stand for and us being a kind of global leader for— stand for and us being a kind of global leader for democracy? if b— global leader for democracy? if b bobe— global leader for democracy? if b bobe bb— global leader for democracy? if we're i hope it doesn't come to bnob— we're i hope it doesn't come to bob. bnb— we're i hope it doesn't come to bob. bnb b— we're i hope it doesn't come to that. but if we're— we're i hope it doesn't come to that. but if we're pushed to it, you— that. but if we're pushed to it, yon-anebnobbo— that. but if we're pushed to it, you australia sends you know, australia sends bbbegob— you know, australia sends illegal—nauru| you know, australia sendsi illegal—nauru . you know, australia sends- illegal_nauru . it's illegal migrants to nauru. it's wonbbng— illegal migrants to nauru. it's working extremely well . the

working extremely well. the obboebbbon— working extremely well. the opposition party supports that. it opposition party supports that. bb be— opposition party supports that. it is essential— opposition party supports that. it is essential that we find a neeonbbenn — it is essential that we find a mechanism to— it is essential that we find a mechanism to deport people who come here illegally so that bbeee— come here illegally so that these criminal— come here illegally so that these criminal gangs and their bnebneee— these criminal gangs and their business model— these criminal gangs and their business model is broken . and i business model is broken. and i nove— business model is broken. and i bove one— business model is broken. and i bove beene— business model is broken. and i have one issue with rwanda bbongb— have one issue with rwanda bbongb. ond— have one issue with rwanda though, and i've— have one issue with rwanda though, and i've made this clear to though, and i've made this clear bo ny— though, and i've made this clear bo nny wbbe— though, and i've made this clear bo nny wbbbe. bo— though, and i've made this clear bo nny wbbbe. bo ny— though, and i've made this clear to my whips, to my whip and to the to my whips, to my whip and to bbe bbne— to my whips, to my whip and to the prime minister— to my whips, to my whip and to the prime minister there are obbegobbone— the prime minister there are allegations from our friends in eongo— allegations from our friends in eongo bnob— allegations from our friends in congo that rwanda is supporting the congo that rwanda is supporting bbe bozo— congo that rwanda is supporting the m23 terrorist— congo that rwanda is supporting the m23 terrorist organisation oebbon.— the m23 terrorist organisation action, which— the m23 terrorist organisation action, which is— the m23 terrorist organisation action, which is destabilising wonbbeoeb— action, which is destabilising northeast congo, right? so until so northeast congo, right? so until eo ebonbd— northeast congo, right? so until eo ebonbd we— northeast congo, right? so until so should we be?— northeast congo, right? so until so should we be? well, until bve— so should we be? well, until bbve node— so should we be? well, until bbve node bb— so should we be? well, until i've made it known i've made it known— i've made it known i've made it known bo— i've made it known i've made it known bo bbe— i've made it known i've made it known to the government that if this known to the government that if bbbe ogneenenb— known to the government that if this agreement is— known to the government that if this agreement is going to be ebgned— this agreement is going to be ebgned ond— this agreement is going to be signed and entered into with bwondo— signed and entered into with bwondo .— signed and entered into with rwanda , this— signed and entered into with rwanda , this outstanding issue rwanda, this outstanding issue neede— rwanda, this outstanding issue neede bo— rwanda, this outstanding issue neede bo be— rwanda, this outstanding issue needs to be resolved because we eonnob— needs to be resolved because we eonnob geb— needs to be resolved because we eonnob geb bnbo— needs to be resolved because we cannot get into bed— needs to be resolved because we cannot get into bed with eonnbbee— cannot get into bed with countries that- cannot get into bed with countries that are being accused of countries that are being accused ob eboneonng— countries that are being accused of sponsoring terrorist organisations , ins which are organisations, ins which are bnvobved— organisations, ins which are involved in. _ organisations, ins which are involved in. why- organisations, ins which are involved in. baby “2 involved in. why was rwanda chosen and murder of congolese

people? there was always going to be concerns about rwanda's genocidal past. question marks over whether it has fully reformed and ended corruption and these sorts of associations. so was this just a harebrained scheme in the first place? daniel be honest about it. well, i know that the conservative - well, i know that the conservative party has had quite a conservative party has had quite o bong— conservative party has had quite o bong ebondbng— conservative party has had quite a long standing engagement with bwondo— a long standing engagement with bwondo oe— a long standing engagement with bwondo oe on— a long standing engagement with rwanda as an mp.— a long standing engagement with rwanda as an mp. for 18 years bve— rwanda as an mp. for 18 years bbve been— rwanda as an mp. for 18 years i've been cognisant of many kyiv eoneenvobbve— i've been cognisant of many kyiv conservative mps— i've been cognisant of many kyiv conservative mps going out there and conservative mps going out there ond bebng— conservative mps going out there and being involved— conservative mps going out there and being involved in development projects and trying to development projects and trying bo geb— development projects and trying bo geb bbe— development projects and trying to get the country— development projects and trying to get the country back on bnoeb — to get the country back on bnoeb so— to get the country back on bnoeb so o— to get the country back on track. so a lot— to get the country back on track. so a lot of personal relationships— track. so a lot of personal relationships have been built up bebween— relationships have been built up between conservative politicians and between conservative politicians ond bwondo— between conservative politicians ond bwondo .— between conservative politicians and rwanda . so— between conservative politicians and rwanda . so suella braverman and rwanda. so suella braverman beneebb— and rwanda. so suella braverman beneebb boe— and rwanda. so suella braverman herself has been— and rwanda. so suella braverman herself has been out there on a nnben— herself has been out there on a nnben ob— herself has been out there on a number of occasions. whether or not number of occasions. whether or nob bwondo— number of occasions. whether or nob bwondo be— number of occasions. whether or not rwanda is ultimately the eonnbny— not rwanda is ultimately the eonnbny bnob— not rwanda is ultimately the country that we— not rwanda is ultimately the country that we use and whether bbeee— country that we use and whether these outstanding— country that we use and whether these outstanding issues of them enbbonbng— these outstanding issues of them enbbonbng bbe— these outstanding issues of them supporting the m23 terrorists be — supporting the m23 terrorists can be resolved.— supporting the m23 terrorists can be resolved. . can be resolved. it's interesting , but it's the interesting, but it's the i would associate you with being a fierce proponent of this policy.

and yet even you are raising question marks about rwanda. also, aren't your constituents worried about the cost ? it's worried about the cost? it's meant to be costing £169,000 to send each migrant out there? well, i think the costs involved are well, i think the costs involved wbobeven— well, i think the costs involved are whatever the _ well, i think the costs involved are whatever the costs are of eendbng— are whatever the costs are of sending illegal— are whatever the costs are of sending illegal migrants to a eonnbny— sending illegal migrants to a country overseas, whatever they bbey— country overseas, whatever they bbey oe— country overseas, whatever they are, they are pale— country overseas, whatever they are, they are pale into insignificance compared to the donoge— insignificance compared to the donoge bo— insignificance compared to the donoge bo onn— insignificance compared to the damage to our reputation of not bebng— damage to our reputation of not bebng obbe— damage to our reputation of not bebng obbe bo— damage to our reputation of not being able to police our own bondene— being able to police our own bondene . — being able to police our own borders . let's— being able to police our own borders . let's talk- being able to police our own borders . borders. let's talk about policing our own borders. obviously, this is largely happening at the channel 45,000 people arriving by barely inflatable dinghy last year. rishi sunak pledged to stop the boats. no sign of that, really so far happening. should the french be doing more? we've just paid them £500 million. what are they doing it? what are they spending it on? well i have to say to you, i think the prime minister has done a very good job in negotiating a new agreement with albania . yes. and agreement with albania. yes. and he is now he's sent a senior-

he is now he's sent a senior ebvbb— he is now he's sent a senior ebvbb eenvonb— he is now he's sent a senior civil servant to _ he is now he's sent a senior civil servant to italy to start negobbobbone— civil servant to italy to start negotiations with italy to stop ob— negotiations with italy to stop ob bbe — negotiations with italy to stop some of the migrants coming bbongb— some of the migrants coming through because— some of the migrants coming through because the flow the bow— through because the flow the bow be— through because the flow the flow is coming— through because the flow the flow is coming through. �*evbb“e. flow is coming through. what obonb— flow is coming through. what obonb bbe— flow is coming through. what about the french? come on. let's speak about well, before we bobb— let's speak about well, before we talk about— let's speak about well, before we talk about the— let's speak about well, before we talk about the french, may i bneb— we talk about the french, may i ineb eoy— we talk about the french, may i ineb eoy bnob— we talk about the french, may i just say that the— we talk about the french, may i just say that the problem that we bove— just say that the problem that we bove be— just say that the problem that we have is the— just say that the problem that we have is the european union, not individual— we have is the european union, not individual union not individual european union eonnbbee— not individual european union. countries—european countries, but it's the european bnbonbe— countries, but it's the european union's ideology— countries, but it's the european union's ideology ,— countries, but it's the european union's ideology , all fanaticism union's ideology, all fanaticism obonb— union's ideology, all fanaticism obonb bbe— union's ideology, all fanaticism about the free— union's ideology, all fanaticism about the free movement of beobbe— about the free movement of beobbe bnob— about the free movement of people that has— about the free movement of people that has caused this bnobben— people that has caused this problem, benefited by the free nnovenenb ob— problem, benefited by the free movement of people. �*evbb“bi“ movement of people. when you came here from poland? oh, no, no. i came in 1978. i came- l “bi”bi 27 oh, no, no. i came in 1978. i came in bbbe— no. i came in 1978. i came in bee wben— no. i came in 1978. i came in 1978 when poland- no. i came in 1978. i came in 1978 when poland was a communist eonnbny— 1978 when poland was a communist eonnbny ond— 1978 when poland was a communist eonnbny ond we— 1978 when poland was a communist country and we fled— 1978 when poland was a communist country and we fled communism . country and we fled communism. but country and we fled communism. bnb-movemenb- country and we fled communism. but-movement of- country and we fled communism. but movement of people but the free movement of people . bbbe— but the free movement of people , this narrative— but the free movement of people , this narrative .the _ but the free movement of people , this narrative the european , this narrative of the european bnbon— , this narrative of the european bnbon .— , this narrative of the european bnbon . ob— , this narrative of the european union , of free— , this narrative of the european union , of free movement of union, of free movement of beobbe— union, of free movement of beobbe be— union, of free movement of beobbe be eo— union, of free movement of people is so profound that all of people is so profound that all ob bbeee— people is so profound that all of these illegal— people is so profound that all of these illegal migrants, wbebben— of these illegal migrants, whether they _ of these illegal migrants, whether they are entering bbongb— whether they are entering through greece , turkey, or through greece, turkey, or wbebben— through greece, turkey, or whether from _ through greece, turkey, or whether from tunisia to italy, the whether from tunisia to italy, bbe bnnneb— whether from tunisia to italy, the funnel is— whether from tunisia to italy, the funnel is towards the united bbngdon— the funnel is towards the united bbngdon .— the funnel is towards the united bbngdon . and— the funnel is towards the united kingdom . and there are no kingdom. and there are no ebeebe— kingdom. and there are no ebeebe. no— kingdom. and there are no checks, no border controls. but why— checks, no border controls. but wby do— checks, no border controls. but wby do yon— checks, no border controls. but why do you think— checks, no border controls. but why do you think any of us beeonee— why do you think any of us because we're— why do you think any of us because we're a- why do you think any of us because we're a soft touch on benebbe— because we're a soft touch on benefits that _

because we're a soft touch on benefits that we _ because we're a soft touch on benefits that we provide housing or benefits that we provide housing on ob— benefits that we provide housing on ob beoeb— benefits that we provide housing or at least accommodation in bobebe. — or at least accommodation in bobebe. be— or at least accommodation in hotels. as soon— or at least accommodation in hotels. as soon as- or at least accommodation in hotels. i“ hotels. as soon as people arrive? well, there are hotels. i“ bbi7 well, there are a lot hotels. as soon as people- arrive? well, there are a lot of bee— arrive? well, there are a lot of bbene oe— arrive? well, there are a lot of bbene o— arrive? well, there are a lot of there are a lot— arrive? well, there are a lot of there are a lot of— bbi7 well, there are a lot of there are a lot of migrants bowonde— there are a lot of migrants towards germany britain. the towards germany and britain. the two towards germany and britain. the bwo bbg— towards germany and britain. the two big economies— towards germany and britain. the two big economies in europe. so of course, illegal— two big economies in europe. so of course, illegal migrants will bnevbbobby— of course, illegal migrants will inevitably flee,— of course, illegal migrants will inevitably flee, move towards wbob— inevitably flee, move towards wbob bbey— inevitably flee, move towards what they perceive to be the ebnongeeb— what they perceive to be the strongest economy and an obbonbnnbby— strongest economy and an opportunity to_ strongest economy and an opportunity to improve their bbee— opportunity to improve their bbvee ond— opportunity to improve their lives and the— opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of their bonbbbee. — lives and the lives of their families. and— lives and the lives of their families. “2 le“ . families. and you can't blame them for that because you did them for that because you did the same yourself. and you've got other family and friends who have from poland. well, have come from poland. well, yes, difference us yes, but the difference in us coming 1978 is we did it coming here in 1978 is we did it legally. yes. and i think evenybody— legally. yes. and i think everybody wants- 3 yes. and i think everybody wants an appreciates beobbe— everybody wants an appreciates beobbe-eone— everybody wants an appreciates people-come here- everybody wants an appreciates people come here legally. by people to come here legally. by the people to come here legally. by bbe woy— people to come here legally. by bbe woy. |wonb— people to come here legally. by the way, want migration to the way, i want migration to ob— the way, i want migration to ob ob— the way, i want migration to come off of the— the way, i want migration to come off of the general ebeebbon. — come off of the general election. top- come off of the general election. top three issues. yes. i election. top three issues. yes. bwonb— election. top three issues. yes. bwonb bo— election. top three issues. yes. i want to focus— election. top three issues. yes. i want to focus on— election. top three issues. yes. i want to focus on why the legal nbgnobbon— i want to focus on why the legal nbgnobbon be— i want to focus on why the legal nbgnobbon be ob— i want to focus on why the legal migration is at 600,000. lbe“ migration is at 600,000. daniel , is migration is at 600,000. daniel . b be bbbe— migration is at 600,000. daniel . b be bbbe nob— migration is at 600,000. daniel , is it? it's not going— migration is at 600,000. daniel , is it? it's not going to- , is it? it's not going to nnbeee— , is it? it's not going to unless the— .7 it's not going to unless the legal, let alone bbbegob— unless the legal, let alone bbbegob. and— unless the legal, let alone illegal. and there's a there's an additional— illegal. and there's a there's an additional problem here. last yeon— an additional problem here. last yeon we— an additional problem here. last yeon we boeb— an additional problem here. last year we lost 550,000 britons. enn— year we lost 550,000 britons. enn bob—

year we lost 550,000 britons. onn bob beobbe— year we lost 550,000 britons. our top people are leaving this eonnbny— our top people are leaving this country because— our top people are leaving this country because of pernicious bevebe— country because of pernicious bevebe ob— country because of pernicious levels of taxation _ country because of pernicious levels of taxation . on some of levels of taxation. on some of my— levels of taxation. on some of my beeb— levels of taxation. on some of my best friends— levels of taxation. on some of my best friends ,— levels of taxation. on some of my best friends , some from my best friends, some from nnbvenebby— my best friends, some from university have— my best friends, some from university have moved to the bonded— university have moved to the bnbbed bnob— university have moved to the united arab emirates because bbenebe— united arab emirates because bbenebe no— united arab emirates because there's no there's— united arab emirates because there's no there's hardly any box. — there's no there's hardly any box. bow— there's no there's hardly any tax. now you're— there's no there's hardly any tax. \biib�*bb�* “lg there's no there's hardly any tax. \bbiib�*bb�* “lg . tax. now you're talking like a tory, but whenever i have a cabinet minister on and say, does tax need to come down, we hear a load of fluff about, oh well, inflation this and we should be going into recession instead. and treasury orthodoxy . must be frustrating . i mean it must be frustrating for in the party. for you and you're in the party. imagine what gb viewers imagine what gb views viewers and listeners think. well, it's extremely frustrating - and listeners think. well, it's extremely frustrating .- e“l . well, it's extremely frustrating . but then extremely frustrating. but then ogobn— extremely frustrating. but then ogobn. donbb— extremely frustrating. but then again, don't forget, as a result of bbe— again, don't forget, as a result of the pandemic,— again, don't forget, as a result of the pandemic, as a result of bbe— of the pandemic, as a result of the financial— of the pandemic, as a result of the financial crisis— of the pandemic, as a result of the financial crisis , we are now the financial crisis, we are now at the financial crisis, we are now ob boo.— the financial crisis, we are now ob boeb debb— the financial crisis, we are now at 100% debt to _ the financial crisis, we are now at 100% debt to gdp ratio. so bbe— at 100% debt to gdp ratio. so the chancellor's— at 100% debt to gdp ratio. so the chancellor's movement is bbgbb— the chancellor's movement is bbgbb ob— the chancellor's movement is bbgbb ob bbe— the chancellor's movement is tight at the moment, but nbbbnobeby— tight at the moment, but ultimately we've got to get back to ultimately we've got to get back bo bnob— ultimately we've got to get back bo bbob beveb— ultimately we've got to get back to that level of— ultimately we've got to get back to that level of low taxation in odd— to that level of low taxation in onden bo— to that level of low taxation in order to retain _ to that level of low taxation in order to retain our— to that level of low taxation in order to retain our top brits. and— order to retain our top brits. and b— order to retain our top brits. and b oneeg— order to retain our top brits. and i agree, disincentives them bon— and i agree, disincentives them from question— and i agree, disincentives them from question sorry, because bbgbb— from question sorry, because bbgbb on— from question sorry, because we're tight on time. 4ib. we're tight on time. you spoke to we're tight on time. you spoke be bbe— we're tight on time. you spoke to the pm in the week i know about the nhs. there was a little image of you which showed a slight height differential

between you. are you confident having oh my having a look at that? oh my goodness you're double his goodness me, you're double his height now. are you worried about nhs particularly about nhs funding, particularly in very quick answer in your area? very quick answer because barclay because we had stephen barclay on. if you heard on. i don't know if you heard him, but the nhs is a massive problem you come 2024, if problem for you come 2024, if people still waiting all people are still waiting all this time to get treatment very quickly. highlighted to the quickly. i highlighted to the bbne—b- quickly. i highlighted to the| prime—i secured prime minister that i secured beb— prime minister that i secured eeb-eb— prime minister that i secured £312-six years- prime minister that i securedi £312-six years .for £312 million, six years ago for modernisation— £312 million, six years ago for modernisation of— £312 million, six years ago for modernisation of a&e services in sbnewebnny— modernisation of a&e services in sbnewebnny ond— modernisation of a&e services in shrewsbury and it— modernisation of a&e services in shrewsbury and it still hasn't gone— shrewsbury and it still hasn't gone obeod— shrewsbury and it still hasn't gone ahead in— shrewsbury and it still hasn't gone ahead in internal workings of bbe— gone ahead in internal workings of bbe wbs— gone ahead in internal workings of the nhs are— gone ahead in internal workings of the nhs are not— gone ahead in internal workings of the nhs are not working. so yon-ne— of the nhs are not working. so yonbne gebbbng— of the nhs are not working. so you're getting the— of the nhs are not working. so you're getting the pledge of the money, but you're not actually getting the money. the management, the- getting the money. the- management, the management bevebe— management, the management bevebe bn— management, the management bevebe bn bbe— management, the management levels in the nhs— management, the management levels in the nhs are extremely boon— levels in the nhs are extremely boon ond— levels in the nhs are extremely boon ond bbey— levels in the nhs are extremely poor and they are— levels in the nhs are extremely poor and they are not managing resources correctly— poor and they are not managing resources correctly . 2 2 resources correctly. so did you say— resources correctly. so did you eoy bo— resources correctly. so did you say to him, give me my money? no, bob geldof style. i said, break the gridlock,- \bbiib .2 i said, break the gridlock, intervene ond— break the gridlock, intervene ond geb— break the gridlock, intervene ond geb bbbe— break the gridlock, intervene and get this over the finishing bbne. — and get this over the finishing bbne. boneb— and get this over the finishing line. b“ l line. daniel kawczynski thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. now, i'm delighted to be joined by lord alex carlile, crossbench peer, former mp, former former lib dem mp, former independent reviewer of uk

counter—terrorism legislation . counter—terrorism legislation. and you successfully inserted an amendment into this week illegal migration bill which should reduce the number of people. i believe that can be deported. lord carlile, why did you do that? give me the thinking behind this amendment . because i behind this amendment. because i believe in upholding— behind this amendment. because i believe in upholding the- ibi“ “2 2 because i believe in upholding the law and the government— believe in upholding the law and the government is— believe in upholding the law and the government is not upholding the government is not upholding bbe bow— the government is not upholding bbe bow .— the government is not upholding bbe bow . and— the government is not upholding the law . and they've approached the law. and they've approached this the law. and they've approached bbbe wbobe— the law. and they've approached this whole bill— the law. and they've approached this whole bill in— the law. and they've approached this whole bill in a— the law. and they've approached this whole bill in a completely begobby— this whole bill in a completely legally non—compliant way . the legally non—compliant way. the boeb— legally non—compliant way. the boebe ob— legally non—compliant way. the boebe ob bbbe— legally non—compliant way. the basis of this bill— legally non—compliant way. the basis of this bill is— legally non—compliant way. the basis of this bill is that there is basis of this bill is that there be o— basis of this bill is that there be o eobe— basis of this bill is that there is a safe country— basis of this bill is that there is a safe country or safe eonnbbee— is a safe country or safe countries to— is a safe country or safe countries to send refugees to, bnb— countries to send refugees to, bnb bn— countries to send refugees to, bnb bn boeb.— countries to send refugees to, but in fact, they're only obenng— but in fact, they're only offering one— but in fact, they're only offering one safe country, and bnobbe— offering one safe country, and that's rwanda— offering one safe country, and that's rwanda .— offering one safe country, and that's rwanda . the court of that's rwanda. the court of abbeobe— that's rwanda. the court of appeals surprised nobody in boebbonenb— appeals surprised nobody in parliament last— appeals surprised nobody in parliament last week when they nbbebd— parliament last week when they nbbebd bbe— parliament last week when they upheld the challenge to rwanda bebng— upheld the challenge to rwanda bebng o— upheld the challenge to rwanda bebng o eobe— upheld the challenge to rwanda being a safe country , not being a safe country, not ben— being a safe country, not because rwanda is intrinsically ede.— because rwanda is intrinsically eobe. bnb— because rwanda is intrinsically safe, but because— because rwanda is intrinsically safe, but because rwanda might eonnbb— safe, but because rwanda might eonnbb wbob-e— safe, but because rwanda might commit what's called refoulement, which is to send beobbe— refoulement, which is to send beobbe wbo— refoulement, which is to send beobbe wbo oe— refoulement, which is to send people who are refugees from owbnb— people who are refugees from awful countries— people who are refugees from awful countries back to those owbnb—

awful countries back to those awful countries. _ awful countries back to those awful countries. so the proposal is awful countries. so the proposal be bn— awful countries. so the proposal be bn bobbene— awful countries. so the proposal be bn bobbene .— awful countries. so the proposal is in tatters . it— awful countries. so the proposal is in tatters . it is— awful countries. so the proposal is in tatters . it is unlawful. is in tatters. it is unlawful. it is in tatters. it is unlawful. bb be— is in tatters. it is unlawful. bb be beodbng— is in tatters. it is unlawful. it is leading to— is in tatters. it is unlawful. it is leading to people being bebb— it is leading to people being bebb bn— it is leading to people being kept in custody— it is leading to people being kept in custody when they should not kept in custody when they should nob be— kept in custody when they should nob be bebb— kept in custody when they should nob be bebb bn— kept in custody when they should not be kept in custody. the eoeb— not be kept in custody. the eoeb. oe— not be kept in custody. the eoeb. oe yon— not be kept in custody. the cost, as you have pointed out to mr cost, as you have pointed out to bbn cowb— cost, as you have pointed out to mr covm pinsky,_ cost, as you have pointed out to mr covid pinsky, exceeds the obbennobbve— mr covid pinsky, exceeds the alternative anyway, the government— alternative anyway, the government knew this was coming and government knew this was coming ond bbe— government knew this was coming ond bbe june— government knew this was coming and the june figures for small boobe— and the june figures for small boats demonstrate that the eo—eobbed — boats demonstrate that the so—called deterrent effect just ebnbby— so—called deterrent effect just ebnbby ben-b— so—called deterrent effect just simply isn't working . bbbibbbb simply isn't working. us now, bond— simply isn't working. us now, bond eonnbe— simply isn't working. us now, lord carlile ,— simply isn't working. us now, lord carlile , just bringing in lord carlile, just bringing in your terrorism experience as well, often people think that there's a risk with people coming by boat and the home office not properly administrating them, that they then could go on to commit crimes . they may well be coming crimes. they may well be coming from countries where they're fleeing the likes of the taliban , but be extremists themselves. is that a legitimate concern ? is that a legitimate concern? it's a legitimate concern that beobbe— it's a legitimate concern that some people might commit crimes and some people might commit crimes ond eoe— some people might commit crimes and some refugees— some people might commit crimes and some refugees have committed bnb— and some refugees have committed bnb eo— and some refugees have committed crimes. but so have— and some refugees have committed crimes. but so have some other beobbe— crimes. but so have some other beobbe wbo— crimes. but so have some other beobbe wbo oe— crimes. but so have some other people who are not— crimes. but so have some other people who are not refugees . people who are not refugees. bbeee— people who are not refugees. these refugees— people who are not refugees.

these refugees are neither more nor these refugees are neither more beee— these refugees are neither more beee bbbeby— these refugees are neither more nor less likely than anyone else to nor less likely than anyone else bo eonnbb— nor less likely than anyone else to commit crimes.— nor less likely than anyone else to commit crimes. but it's a veny— to commit crimes. but it's a veny bbny— to commit crimes. but it's a very tiny minority of people who eonnbb— very tiny minority of people who commit crimes— very tiny minority of people who commit crimes .— very tiny minority of people who commit crimes . so— very tiny minority of people who commit crimes . so far as your commit crimes. so far as your enggeebbon— commit crimes. so far as your enggeebbon .— commit crimes. so far as your enggeebbon . b— commit crimes. so far as your suggestion , i think, or at least suggestion, i think, or at least bnbbbobbon— suggestion, i think, or at least implication that— suggestion, i think, or at least implication that there may be bennonebe— implication that there may be terrorists among— implication that there may be terrorists among refugees. well, donbb— terrorists among refugees. well, donbb oeene— terrorists among refugees. well, don't assume that— terrorists among refugees. well, don't assume that because the bone— don't assume that because the bone oebbe— don't assume that because the home office is— don't assume that because the home office is administratively bneonbebenb— home office is administratively incompetent on— home office is administratively incompetent on this subject , incompetent on this subject, bnob— incompetent on this subject, bbob bbe — incompetent on this subject, that the security— incompetent on this subject, that the security services and counter—terrorism police are obeobnbeby— counter—terrorism police are absolutely not— counter—terrorism police are absolutely not on to it . and i absolutely not on to it. and i on — absolutely not on to it. and i am absolutely— absolutely not on to it. and i am absolutely certain from my bong— am absolutely certain from my long experience— am absolutely certain from my long experience of these issues bnob— long experience of these issues bbob bbene— long experience of these issues bbob bbene be— long experience of these issues that there is an— long experience of these issues that there is an overwhelming bbbebbbood— that there is an overwhelming likelihood that— that there is an overwhelming likelihood that any terrorist onong— likelihood that any terrorist among refugees will be found out and interdicted._ among refugees will be found out and interdicted. i— among refugees will be found out and interdicted. i don't i'm not wonnbed— and interdicted. i don't i'm not worried about— and interdicted. i don't i'm not worried about that. i“ and interdicted. i don't i'm not worried about that. “ ib”l worried about that. i mean, lord eonnbe— worried about that. i mean, lord carlile, there is an argument to say that perhaps the lord shouldn't be involving themselves in this. you know, you're not elected and you've got on both sides got various mps on both sides saying that this issue is massive the voters , and yet massive for the voters, and yet you're trying to thwart the government's own legislation in order to quell some of the fears that people are hearing on the doorstep well camilla is a very

doorstep. well camilla is a very experienced journalist who writes for a very constitutional newspaper. i think you're bongebbbng— newspaper. i think you're forgetting our— i think you're forgetting our constitution ben— forgetting our constitution be bb— forgetting our constitution because it is— forgetting our constitution because it is the role of the bonee— because it is the role of the bonee ob— because it is the role of the house of lords— because it is the role of the house of lords to revise legislation. _ house of lords to revise legislation. and i'm afraid an oven— legislation. and i'm afraid an owbnb bob— legislation. and i'm afraid an owbnb bob ob— legislation. and i'm afraid an awful lot of legislation is eonbng— awful lot of legislation is eonbng bo— awful lot of legislation is coming to the— awful lot of legislation is coming to the house of lords, bovbng— coming to the house of lords, bovbng bondby— coming to the house of lords, having hardly been considered by the having hardly been considered by bbe bonee— having hardly been considered by bbe bonee ob— having hardly been considered by the house of commons. so we're onby— the house of commons. so we're onby dobng— the house of commons. so we're onby dobng onn— the house of commons. so we're only doing our job.— the house of commons. so we're only doing our job. second point only doing ourjob. second point is only doing ourjob. second point be bnob— only doing ourjob. second point be bbob b— only doing ourjob. second point be bbob b yon— only doing ourjob. second point is that if you look— only doing ourjob. second point is that if you look at the debobe— is that if you look at the debobe on— is that if you look at the debate on these issues in the bonee— debate on these issues in the bonee ob— debate on these issues in the house of commons, there is a gneob— house of commons, there is a gneob deob— house of commons, there is a gneob deob ob— house of commons, there is a great deal of concern in the bonee— great deal of concern in the bonee ob— great deal of concern in the house of commons. it's not a noionbby— house of commons. it's not a majority concern,— house of commons. it's not a majority concern, but there is a gneob— majority concern, but there is a gneob deob— majority concern, but there is a gneob deob ob— majority concern, but there is a great deal of concern about the way— great deal of concern about the woy bbbe— great deal of concern about the way this legislation is being deobb— way this legislation is being deobb wbbb— way this legislation is being deobb wbbb .— way this legislation is being dealt with . and— way this legislation is being dealt with . and it's dealt with. and it's a legitimate- dealt with. and it's a legitimate procedure that's bebng— legitimate procedure that's being followed. if a government wonbe— being followed. if a government wonbe bo— being followed. if a government wants to reform _ being followed. if a government wants to reform the house of bonde— wants to reform the house of bonde. bbbe— wants to reform the house of bonde. bbbe nb— wants to reform the house of lords, it's up to— wants to reform the house of lords, it's up to them to try. ebvboneby— lords, it's up to them to try. ebvboneby no— lords, it's up to them to try. obviously no ,— lords, it's up to them to try. obviously no , indeed. ' “2 obviously no, indeed. and i enbb— obviously no, indeed. and i think labour's talked about scrapping house of lords, scrapping the house of lords, lord a quick lord carlile, a very quick question. if could question. finally, if you could be brief, i'd be grateful. should france doing more ? yes

should france be doing more? yes well, that's the quickest answer we can ask for. lord carlile thank you very, very much indeed for joining me this morning. forjoining me this morning. lovely to speak to you. ah there you have it. now, michael portillo joins now. is portillo joins me now. this is another politician, ex politician fellow gb news politician in my fellow gb news presenter likes to answer presenter who likes to answer a straight question a straight question with a straight question with a straight answer. what we straight answer. that's what we like carlile. my like from lord carlile. my straight to you is, is straight question to you is, is this rwanda plan a complete failure and probably needs to be abandoned ? no. are thank you. abandoned? no. are thank you. well, going from lord carlisle's point, if we had total cooperation with france, i dare say we could smash up the criminal gangs. but we don't have total cooperation, i think, because the french believe that we should be sharing in the refugee crisis of europe , even refugee crisis of europe, even though not members the though we're not members of the european rwanda european union, the rwanda policy is a sort of pretty unattractive policy. and so a lot of people are squeamish about it. but but the reason it's being tried is that it has things like it have succeeded elsewhere. and i think even we have an example here since the

albanian government has been willing to take back albanians, the number of albanians seeking to come here has fallen . so to come here has fallen. so that's been a deterrent.- “ so that's been a deterrent. so that boe— that's been a deterrent. so that has-deterrent.- that's been a deterrent. so that has-deterrent. - that's been a deterrent. so that has-deterrent. and- that's been a deterrent. so that has deterrent. ““l has been a deterrent. and you bbe— has been a deterrent. and you see the rwanda is meant see the rwanda policy is meant to the same thing. and you to be the same thing. and you know, thing work know, a similar thing did work in australia . but a in the case of australia. but a lot of people just don't want to touch it. but but the lunacy of the present situation is we've got thousands of got thousands and thousands of people in, without people coming in, but without any provide any national plan to provide them or with them with schools or with hospitals with homes. and hospitals or with homes. and that illogical. you that is illogical. i mean, you can't say i'm not going to look at any solutions to this problem unless you're also willing to say we are going to resource all these people. anyone who chooses to arrive in this country. but through a lack of housing and infrastructure _ through a lack of housing and infrastructure immigration, infrastructure to immigration, yoe— infrastructure to immigration, you're described— infrastructure to immigration, you're described as bigot in you're described as a bigot in me.— you're described as a bigot in me webb— you're described as a bigot in 2023. well surely— you're described as a bigot in 2023. well surely a realist. i we ob— 2023. well surely a realist. i mean, we all know- 2023. well surely a realist. i mean, we all know that- 2023. well surely a realist. i mean, we all know that all of our public services are constrained. what i'm saying is we've got immigration occurring at levels . they're at accidental levels. they're not levels that are planned by government . and because they're government. and because they're an government an accident, the government isn't we're going

isn't saying, right, we're going to 500,000 new people. to have 500,000 new people. therefore 20 new schools therefore we need 20 new schools and ten new hospitals or whatever the sums would be. that is not happening and have is not happening and people have their the sand about their head in the sand about this. yes. also i don't think beobbe— this. yes. also i don't think people actually— yes. also i don't think people actually object to the bnnbgnonbe— people actually object to the immigrants themselves. they obieeb—ob- object to the lack of infrastructure, of infrastructure, the lack of doebone— infrastructure, the lack of doctors and _ infrastructure, the lack of doctors and dental appointments to doctors and dental appointments bo-bb— doctors and dental appointments bo-b .— doctors and dental appointments bo-bb . bbe— doctors and dental appointments bo-bb . bbe boeb- doctors and dental appointments to-it , the lack of- to go with it, the lack of eeboobbng. — to go with it, the lack of schooling. _the . to go with it, the lack of schooling. the other schooling. that's the other bnobben. — schooling. that's the other problem. _think. schooling. that's the other. problem-think like i problem. well, i think like i think people are worried also about 80s sort of 70. about the 80s and sort of 70. well, there are people always worried about fairness. you worried about fairness. so you know, coming from know, people coming from afghanistan, from afghanistan, people coming from hong from hong kong, people come from ukraine. have ukraine. all these people have been welcome. been made welcome. but people have simply up in have simply pitched up in calais. yeah maybe coming only from albania, let's say . let's from albania, let's say. let's take example. i think take that example. i think people less sympathy them people are less sympathy to them very quickly . very quickly. very quickly. very quickly. sonny. — very quickly. very quickly. sonny. b— very quickly. very quickly. sonny. b bove— bbig l. lee/lg very quickly. sorry. i love talking to bbig l. {mi-g very quickly. sorry. i love talking to you obonb— sorry. i love talking to you about-matters- sorry. i love talking to you about matters political. who about all matters political. who bove— about all matters political. who bove-gob— about all matters political. who bove-gob on— about all matters political. who have .got on the _ about all matters political. who have got on the show have you got on the show bnbebbye — have you got on the show briefly? we're- have you got on the show briefly? �*evb�*bi ”bi lgbib “lg have you got on the show briefly? lgbib “lg briefly? we're going to be talking ethical dilemmas, talking about ethical dilemmas, assisted should we assisted dying. should we make it easier in northern it easier to die in northern ireland? should we be prosecuting crimes that are committed during the troubles? we're going to be talking about

nancy mitford, who died 50 years ago. and i've got a niece and a nephew of hers coming on the program. and i'm going to explain to you the difference between ice cream and gelato. well, the granddaughter between ice cream and gelato. i well,.the granddaughter-an well, as the granddaughter of an ice cream salesman , how many ice cream salesman, how many ebby— ice cream salesman, how many ebby beee— ice cream salesman, how many ebby obben— ice cream salesman, how many city ices often licked , never city ices often licked, never beoben— city ices often licked, never beoben. b— city ices often licked, never beaten. i need— city ices often licked, never beaten. i need no explanation on bnob— beaten. i need no explanation on bbob. bnb— beaten. i need no explanation on bbob. bnb bbb— beaten. i need no explanation on that, but i'll still— beaten. i need no explanation on that, but i'll still tune in onywoy— that, but i'll still tune in onywoy-bo- that, but i'll still tune in anyway. to michael that, but i'll still tune in- anyway. _to michael from anyway. tune in to michael from 11 anyway. tune in to michael from b—veny- anyway. tune in to michael from b—veny nnebl 11 am. thank you very much. now:— 11 am. thank you very much. wow-gnbbby— 11 am. thank you very much. now-quickly p0p- 11 am. thank you very much. now, quickly pop over to now, let's quickly pop over to bbbnond— now, let's quickly pop over to richmond upon— now, let's quickly pop over to richmond upon thames, where eobbenbne— richmond upon thames, where catherine people's catherine is with the people's boneb — catherine is with the people's boneb _one- catherine is with the people's boneb _one ob- catherine is with the people's panel. _one of the. panel. i did ask one of the gneebbone— panel. i did ask one of the questions, why— panel. i did ask one of the questions, why that questions, why does that wonbbonee— questions, why does that. workforce _ late questions, why does that- workforce _ late for workforce plan come so late for the workforce plan come so late for bbe bonee— workforce plan come so late for bbe bonee e— workforce plan come so late for the tories ? catherine b4i; the tories? catherine yes, hello . eonebbbn— the tories? catherine yes, hello , camilla, and welcome back to lemon dean patterson in lovely richmond upon thames. thank you for asking the question. we'll come to that in just a second. but first of all, alan cairns twice referred to lefty lawyers sitting next to me. we've got philip who's been a member of the conservative party for four decades and is a lawyer. so philip, what did you make of that? well, dear oh dear, oh deon— that? well, dear oh dear, oh deon. webne— that? well, dear oh dear, oh dear. we're back—

.“e.7 well, dear oh dear, oh dear. we're back again to the bebby— dear. we're back again to the bebby bowyen— dear. we're back again to the lefty lawyer tag. _ dear. we're back again to the lefty lawyer tag. now, this is bobobby— lefty lawyer tag. now, this is totally unfair— lefty lawyer tag. now, this is totally unfair for— lefty lawyer tag. now, this is totally unfair for members of the totally unfair for members of bbe bon— totally unfair for members of the bar because— totally unfair for members of the bar because we represent onybody— the bar because we represent anybody, irrespective of our beneonob— anybody, irrespective of our personal views.— anybody, irrespective of our personal views. they come to us on o eob— personal views. they come to us on o eob nonb— personal views. they come to us on a cab rank rule— personal views. they come to us on a cab rank rule and we bbenebone— on a cab rank rule and we therefore take— on a cab rank rule and we therefore take them and we try to therefore take them and we try bo nebneeenb— therefore take them and we try to represent their— therefore take them and we try to represent their interests. so bebbe— to represent their interests. so bebbe ebob— to represent their interests. so bebbe ebob bbbe— to represent their interests. so let's stop this lefty lawyer tag bonbbbbo— let's stop this lefty lawyer tag bonbbbbo. boe— let's stop this lefty lawyer tag portillo, has just— let's stop this lefty lawyer tag portillo, has just said about bwondo— portillo, has just said about bwondo be— portillo, has just said about rwanda is absolutely true ben— rwanda is absolutely true be bb— rwanda is absolutely true because it is— rwanda is absolutely true because it is a— rwanda is absolutely true because it is a very unattractive- because it is a very unattractive policy and it's one bnob— unattractive policy and it's one bbob bony— unattractive policy and it's one that many members of the bar are veny— that many members of the bar are very uncomfortable— that many members of the bar are very uncomfortable with. i don't go bon— very uncomfortable with. i don't go do oe— very uncomfortable with. i don't go do oe oe— very uncomfortable with. i don't go do oe oe bon— very uncomfortable with. i don't go far as as far as— very uncomfortable with. i don't go far as as far as layla moran on eoybng— go far as as far as layla moran on eoybng bnob— go far as as far as layla moran on saying that we— go far as as far as layla moran on saying that we are opposed to it on saying that we are opposed to bb ben— on saying that we are opposed to bb ben ee— on saying that we are opposed to it per se, because— on saying that we are opposed to it per se, because we do eeonbege— it per se, because we do recognise that- it per se, because we do recognise that something needs to recognise that something needs bo be— recognise that something needs bo be done— recognise that something needs bo be done .— recognise that something needs bo be done . we— recognise that something needs to be done . we are basically to be done. we are basically beneebved— to be done. we are basically beneebved by— to be done. we are basically perceived by many people to be eoebob— perceived by many people to be social workers— perceived by many people to be social workers in— perceived by many people to be social workers in a— perceived by many people to be social workers in a wig as bonnbebene— social workers in a wig as barristers because that's a lot of bbe— barristers because that's a lot of bbe wonb— barristers because that's a lot of the work that— barristers because that's a lot of the work that we do, but we ebonbd — of the work that we do, but we ebonbd nob— of the work that we do, but we should not leave— of the work that we do, but we should not leave the european eonnb— should not leave the european eonnb ob— should not leave the european court of human— should not leave the european court of human rights. should not leave the european court of human rights . that court of human rights. that wonbd— court of human rights. that wonbd be— court of human rights. that would be the— court of human rights. that would be the wrong step to make. we would be the wrong step to make. we ebonbd— would be the wrong step to make. we should actually— would be the wrong step to make. we should actually turn the deebebone— we should actually turn the decisions into _ we should actually turn the decisions into persuasive deebebone— decisions into persuasive decisions and— decisions into persuasive decisions and in the future , decisions and in the future, bebbe— decisions and in the future, bebbe eee— decisions and in the future, let's see that— decisions and in the future, let's see that we can play our pari— let's see that we can play our

bonb oe— let's see that we can play our bonb oe o— let's see that we can play our part as a leading— let's see that we can play our part as a leading member of bnebe— part as a leading member of bnnobe. even— part as a leading member of europe, even though we're onbebde— europe, even though we're outside the— europe, even though we're outside the eu. thank you for that. we're having a heated debate earlier about whether or not we should stay in the echr difference of opinion. but anyway, we've got lots to get through. sandra, you were listening to lord carlile . got listening to lord carlile. got some opinions on the house of lords and the various amendments they've been making to the illegal migration bill. i feel that the majority of british pubuc that the majority of british public want the rwanda policy to be implemented , and it's the be implemented, and it's the will of the people . and the will of the people. and the house of commons- -- and the house of commons voted on it. it wenb— house of commons voted on it. it wenb bon— house of commons voted on it. it went for revision— house of commons voted on it. it went for revision to— house of commons voted on it. it went for revision to the house of bonde— went for revision to the house of bonde ond— went for revision to the house of lords and unelect voted body ond— of lords and unelect voted body ond bbey— of lords and unelect voted body and they revised— of lords and unelect voted body and they revised it. and lord eonnbe— and they revised it. and lord carlile implements add some onendnenbe— carlile implements add some amendments .— carlile implements add some amendments . but i don't think amendments. but i don't think the amendments. but i don't think bbe bonde— amendments. but i don't think the lords have— amendments. but i don't think the lords have got the right to do bnob— the lords have got the right to do bbob ond— the lords have got the right to do bbob ond b— the lords have got the right to do that and i think perhaps bbe— do that and i think perhaps now's the time— do that and i think perhaps now's the time to scrap the bonde— now's the time to scrap the lords because _ now's the time to scrap the lords because they're undermining the government. well if undermining the government. well b bobonn— undermining the government. well b bobonn gebe— undermining the government. well if labour gets into— undermining the government. well if labour gets into power bbey-ne— if labour gets into power bbeybne eoybng— if labour gets into power they're saying that they're going— they're saying that they're gobng bo — they're saying that they're gobng bo do — they're saying that they're going to do that, aren't they? so going to do that, aren't they? so bebbe— going to do that, aren't they? so bebbe —

going to do that, aren't they? so let's see. and,— going to do that, aren't they? so let's see. and, and.- going to do that, aren't they? so let's see. and, and. simon camilla did ask your question to the health secretary, steve barclay, about what's taken so long and what did you make of what he had to say? i actually quite what he had to say? i actually gnbbe bbbed— what he had to say? i actually quite liked steve— e2 7 i actually quite liked steve barclay. i bbbnb— quite liked steve barclay. i bbbnb bebe— quite liked steve barclay. i think he's probably a pretty ebeebbve— think he's probably a pretty effective minister. they have done— effective minister. they have done some things . most of us are done some things. most of us are boeneeed— done some things. most of us are boeneeed on— done some things. most of us are focussed on outcomes. that's wbob— focussed on outcomes. that's wbob we— focussed on outcomes. that's what we want.— focussed on outcomes. that's what we want. we want things to wonb— what we want. we want things to wonb bnobenby. — what we want. we want things to wonb bnobenby. won— what we want. we want things to work properly. you know , to work properly. you know, to nedne— work properly. you know, to nedne bbe— work properly. you know, to reduce the waiting list and also so reduce the waiting list and also eo wben— reduce the waiting list and also eo wben yon.— reduce the waiting list and also so when you, when you have a bneobnenb— so when you, when you have a treatment that— so when you, when you have a treatment that it— so when you, when you have a treatment that it actually ebbben— treatment that it actually either cures— treatment that it actually either cures what you're doing or either cures what you're doing on gbvee— either cures what you're doing on gbvee yon— either cures what you're doing or gives you.bit_ either cures what you're doing or gives you bit of an or gives you a bit of an exbended— or gives you a bit of an extended .so,- or gives you a bit of an extended so, so okay, or gives you a bit of an- extended .so, so okay, go extended life. so, so okay, go obeod— extended life. so, so okay, go obeod ond— extended life. so, so okay, go ahead and do— extended life. so, so okay, go ahead and do it.— extended life. so, so okay, go ahead and do it. it's a bit bobe— ahead and do it. it's a bit be won— ahead and do it. it's a bit late. you know,- ahead and do it. it's a bit late. you know, all this announcement , but let's hope it announcement, but let's hope it wonbe— announcement, but let's hope it wonbe. — announcement, but let's hope it works . indeed.— announcement, but let's hope it works . ' works. indeed. indeed. and finally , we we're here in finally, we we're here in richmond. it's currently a lib dem seat . you are all dem seat. you are all conservative voters and will be still rishi sunak is having a very tough time . do you think he very tough time. do you think he can possibly turn it around quick answer, if you will. yes, he can turn it around,- quick answer, if you will. yes, he can turn it around, but- l- lb �*7 -- yes, he can turn it around, but we need— he can turn it around, but we need oebbon.— he can turn it around, but we need action. we— he can turn it around, but we need action. we need it to be

debbvened— need action. we need it to be delivered and— need action. we need it to be delivered and we— need action. we need it to be delivered and we need to deliver on bboee— delivered and we need to deliver on bboee bve— delivered and we need to deliver on those five priorities. ' “2 on those five priorities. and oebnobby— on those five priorities. and oebnobby .— on those five priorities. and actually , yeah,— on those five priorities. and actually , yeah, rwanda being the actually, yeah, rwanda being the top one. yeah . actually, yeah, rwanda being the top one. yeah. i actually, yeah, rwanda being the top one. yeah . i simply want an top one. yeah. i simply want an effective mp here. and the liberal democrats are completely ineffective. so no chance of them ever getting your vote. no , i would. i would rather lgbi.. “lg ” no , i would. i would rather well, i , i would. i would rather well, bwonbb— , i would. i would rather well, bwonbb eoy— , i would. i would rather well, b won-b eoy bb— , i would. i would rather well, b won-b eoy bb. — , i would. i would rather well, iwon't say it. i— , i would. i would rather well, i won't say it . l i won't say it. i certainly wouldn't. it's a i won't say it. l 2 i“ . it's a morning i won't say it. i certainly- wouldn't. it's a morning program . b— wouldn't. it's a morning program . b wonbd— wouldn't. it's a morning program . i would never— wouldn't. it's a morning program . i would never vote . i would . i would never vote. i would call them liberals. they're not democrats for a start. well there you go. sarah olney will not there you go. sarah olney will nob be— there you go. sarah olney will nob be gebbbng— ”bi lgbib sarah olney will not be getting simon's vote. and bnobby— not be getting simon's vote. and bnobby bo— not be getting simon's vote. and bbnobby bo yon.— not be getting simon's vote. and finally to you, philip, what do you— finally to you, philip, what do yon bbbnbe— finally to you, philip, what do yon bbbnbe be— finally to you, philip, what do you think? is this— finally to you, philip, what do you think? is this a safe lib ben— you think? is this a safe lib ben eeobe — you think? is this a safe lib dem seat? n0,— you think? is this a safe lib dem seat? n0, |- you think? is this a safe lib dem seat? \biib lib“ . you think? is this a safe lib dem seat? \zib lib“. you think? is this a safe lib dem seat? bbbi lib“. . dem seat? no, i don't think it is. as mrs. olney has been a good mp, i'm not here to criticise her. they are an irrelevance of liberal democrats. they do shoddy deals with the green party to get in. there's tactical voting here. it's a soft majority that she has probably with the boundary change, about 7000 votes. i think that's easily able for us

to take back . we have to to take back. we have to obviously have a candidate. we haven't got one yet, but we will be waiting for a general election and we will go to in win in richmond upon thames because we want a conservative mp back here. so put up on bone— mp back here. so put up on thames buck— mp back here. so put up on thames buck the _ .b�*bifb�*b�* l “bi”bi so put up on thames buck the trend at the newb— thames buck the trend at the next election— thames buck the trend at the next election and— thames buck the trend at the next election and turn what's ennnenbby— next election and turn what's currently yellow— next election and turn what's currently yellow seats blue. bebbe— currently yellow seats blue. bebbe eee— currently yellow seats blue. let's see what— currently yellow seats blue. let's see what happens in a year or let's see what happens in a year on o yeon— let's see what happens in a year on o yeon ond— let's see what happens in a year on o yeon ond o— let's see what happens in a year or a year and a half.— let's see what happens in a year or a year and a half. back to yon. — or a year and a half. back to yon. bbonb— or a year and a half. back to you. thank you,— or a year and a half. back to you. thank you, catherine. stranger things have happened. don't you love the people's panel? i mean, get off the fence, please tell us fence, simon, please tell us what really think about the what you really think about the liberal democrats. the liberal democrats. anyway the gen after this. gen gap is back after this. don't

britons watching. we're proud to be ob— britons watching. we're proud to be on web— britons watching. we're proud to be gb news the— britons watching. we're proud to be gb news the people's- l “lg we're proud to be gb news the people's channel bnbon— be gb news the people's channel bnbbobn .— be gb news the people's channel bnbbobn . — be gb news the people's channel bnbbobn . bbbe— be gb news the people's channel britain . it's time— be gb news the people's channel britain . it's time for— be gb news the people's channel britain . . . britain. it's time for the generation gap. now. the part of the show where people from different generations debate hot political topics. an inquiry this week found the royal air force unlawfully discriminated against white men in a recruitment drive aimed at boosting diversity . so can boosting diversity. so can positive discrimination ever be justified? henry boulton obe , justified? henry boulton obe, former ukip leader and army officer, joins me, along with femi nylander, anti racism campaigner femi , positive campaigner femi, positive discrimination. surely the clue's in the word shouldn't be allowed. well, no. i mean, the wbobe— allowed. well, no. i mean, the wbobe bobnb— allowed. well, no. i mean, the whole point of— 2 well, no. i mean, the whole point of positive discrimination as a concept, it ben-b— discrimination as a concept, it isn't something— discrimination as a concept, it isn't something the states, bbey-ve— isn't something the states, bbeybve bneb— isn't something the states, they've just kind of the supreme eonnb— they've just kind of the supreme eonnb boe— they've just kind of the supreme eonnb boe bneb— they've just kind of the supreme court has just overturned a long ebondbng— court has just overturned a long ebondbng .— court has just overturned a long standing , positive,— court has just overturned a long standing , positive, long standing, positive, long ebondbng— standing, positive, long standing ruling on positive discrimination,— standing ruling on positive discrimination, which allowed it for universities— discrimination, which allowed it for universities to _ discrimination, which allowed it for universities to address bbebonb—

for universities to address historic racial— for universities to address historic racial injustices, wbbb— historic racial injustices, wbbeb bo— historic racial injustices, which to led— historic racial injustices, which to led the underrepresentation of which to led the— underrepresentation of black ebndenbe— underrepresentation of black ebndenbe bn— underrepresentation of black students in us— underrepresentation of black students in us universities. in the students in us universities. in bbe ee— students in us universities. in bbe woy— students in us universities. in bbe woy b— students in us universities. in the same way i mean , it's is one the same way i mean, it's is one is the same way i mean, it's is one be one— the same way i mean, it's is one be bboee.— the same way i mean, it's is one be bboee. bnb— the same way i mean, it's is one is one place, but generally bbebonbob— is one place, but generally historical injustices, economic bnboboneee— historical injustices, economic imbalances, diferente differentials in opportunity his gbven— differentials in opportunity his gbven bo— differentials in opportunity his given to different racial groups ond— given to different racial groups ond bneb— given to different racial groups and just general— given to different racial groups and just general racial discrimination which is embedded into discrimination which is embedded bnbo eoebeby— discrimination which is embedded into society leads— discrimination which is embedded into society leads to imbalances wbeneby— into society leads to imbalances wbeneby bn— into society leads to imbalances wbeneby bn bbe— into society leads to imbalances whereby in the raf and then can it whereby in the raf and then can bb bbb— whereby in the raf and then can bb bbb e — whereby in the raf and then can bb bbb e eon-b— whereby in the raf and then can it flip 7 can't the— whereby in the raf and then can it flip ? ce“ . l lgbib “ it flip? can't the balance go in the other direction or the balance suddenly going in the other direction? because we as nbnonbbbee— other direction? because we as nbnonbbbee bn— other direction? because we as minorities in the— other direction? because we as minorities in the raf- 2 l7 because we as minorities in the raf and they deebded— minorities in the raf and they deebded bb— minorities in the raf and they decided it was— minorities in the raf and they decided it was a— minorities in the raf and they decided it was a bad idea, 2.5% of decided it was a bad idea, 2.5% ob—ob— decided it was a bad idea, 2.5% ob—ob bboee- decided it was a bad idea, 2.5% of_of those root| of the population of those root bnobbene— of the population of those root problems rather— of the population of those root problems rather than artificially- problems rather than artificially altering the bobonee— artificially altering the balance in— artificially altering the balance in the workplace . ' “2 artificially altering the— balance in the workplace . and if balance in the workplace. and if you balance in the workplace. and if yon boob— balance in the workplace. and if you look particularly at the armed forces or the emergency forces services like the police and so on, i don't think anybody in this country really cares whether they're being pulled out of a house fire or or the person stopping bombers coming into

british skies is purple, bisexual from mars and worshipping the planet. zog i don't i think what they expect is the ministry of defence and the home office or whoever to select the person who is most capable has the attributes most every application be colour—blind . no, i think colour—blind. no, i think everything should. but we need to address the reasons why this is a chicken egg problem. so if someone has a great l“ lee/bi“ biblg lg so if someone has a great education, if someone has a great education, b eoeone— someone has a great education, b boe— someone has a great education, if someone has opportunities gbven— if someone has opportunities gbven bo— if someone has opportunities gbven bo bben.— if someone has opportunities given to them, they become a bebben— given to them, they become a better candidate.— given to them, they become a better candidate. if i go to the bee— better candidate. if i go to the beeb-ond— better candidate. if i go to the beeb-ond b— better candidate. if i go to the best-and i have- better candidate. if i go to the best and i have all the best schools and i have all the obbonbnnbbbee— best schools and i have all the opportunities and— best schools and i have all the opportunities and since i'm ten yeone— opportunities and since i'm ten yeone obd— opportunities and since i'm ten yeone obd. bbn— opportunities and since i'm ten years old, i'm going with my dod— years old, i'm going with my dodlbnvobe— years old, i'm going with my dad. private trips to dad. on private trips to bnoebbee— dad. on private trips to practise planes, i dad. on private trips to- practise-planes, i become practise flying planes, i become a practise flying planes, i become o-eondbdobe— practise flying planes, i become a-candidate and- practise flying planes, i become a-candidate and it- a better candidate and it bee— a better candidate and it becomes chicken a better candidate and it- becomes.chicken-problem. becomes a chicken egg problem. you becomes a chicken egg problem. von eon— becomes a chicken egg problem. von bny— becomes a chicken egg problem. von bny bo— becomes a chicken egg problem. you can try to address it at the at you can try to address it at the ob bbe— you can try to address it at the at the chicken _ you can try to address it at the at the chicken or— you can try to address it at the at the chicken or you can try to oddneee— at the chicken or you can try to oddneee-egg.— at the chicken or you can try to oddneee-egg. on- at the chicken or you can try to address egg, or you address it at the egg, or you eon-ob— address it at the egg, or you eonlob bobb— address it at the egg, or you can-at both. at- address it at the egg, or you can at both. at the end of can try at both. at the end of bbe— can try at both. at the end of bbe doy— can try at both. at the end of bbe by b— can try at both. at the end of the day, if someone from a nbnonbby— the day, if someone from a nbnonbby gnonb— the day, if someone from a minority group is given an obbonbnnbby— minority group is given an opportunity they therefore opportunity and they therefore bove — have better economic opportunities have better economic. opportunities-on have better economic- opportunities-on to opportunities to pass on to bneb— opportunities to pass on to bbeb-bbe- opportunities to pass on to their the likelihood opportunities to pass on to th okay, the likelihood opportunities to pass on to th okay, so the likelihood opportunities to pass on to th okay, so saythe likelihood opportunities to pass on to th okay, so say two .ikelihood opportunities to pass on to th okay, so say two equally d is okay, so say two equally gnobbbed— is okay, so say two equally qualified of qualified candidates with all of the qualified candidates with all of bbe-ev— qualified candidates with all of the-cv should—

qualified candidates with all of the-cv should the- qualified candidates with all of the cv should the raf be the best cv should the raf be eoybng— the best cv should the raf be eoybng webb— the best cv should the raf be saying we'll take— the best cv should the raf be saying we'll take the black guy ben— saying we'll take the black guy because-haven't— saying we'll take the black guy because haven't got as many because we haven't got as many bboeb— because we haven't got as many bboeb beobbee — because we haven't got as many black people? well,— because we haven't got as many black people? �*evbbi-- 3 black people? well, the rf is one specific but one specific example, but generally, do you think, as i say, legitimate any institution that 2.5% minority that only has 2.5% minority motty a which motty members in a country which has 12.12% of the you're underrepresent stated the underrepresentation thing. but this isn't a democratic organisation- this isn't a democratic organisation or an organisation bnob— organisation or an organisation bbob bnob— organisation or an organisation that that should— organisation or an organisation that that should artificially nebneeenb— that that should artificially represent the _ that that should artificially represent the demographics. what gob— represent the demographics. what gob bo— represent the demographics. what gob bo do— represent the demographics. what we've got to do is— represent the demographics. what we've got to do is address the core reasons why— we've got to do is address the core reasons why why people from eenbobn— core reasons why why people from certain backgrounds— core reasons why why people from certain backgrounds don't go to. you certain backgrounds don't go to. von bove— certain backgrounds don't go to. von bove bo— certain backgrounds don't go to. you have to agree,— certain backgrounds don't go to. you have to agree, henry don't wonb— you have to agree, henry don't wonb bo— you have to agree, henry don't wonb bo. — you have to agree, henry don't want to. what— you have to agree, henry don't want to. what femi - you have to agree, henry don't want to. �*evb�*e. bii“ you have to agree, henry don't want to. “lg want to. what femi is saying is there aren't enough black people in the raf. correct. but on the other in the raf. correct. but on the obben bond.— in the raf. correct. but on the other hand, do— in the raf. correct. but on the other hand, do .then - in the raf. correct. but on the other hand, do.then i- i“ 3 l but on the other hand, do then i mean other hand, do we then i mean weeb— other hand, do we then i mean west midlands— other hand, do we then i mean west midlands fire and rescue senvbe— west midlands fire and rescue senvbe o— west midlands fire and rescue senvbe o bew— west midlands fire and rescue service a few years ago had a bobby— service a few years ago had a bobby wbene— service a few years ago had a policy where white heterosexual _g%_ policy where white heterosexual nen—ebo none- policy where white heterosexual. men _6% more points men had to score 6% more points on-numerous tests— men had to score 6% more points on numerous tests to enter on the numerous tests to enter bbon— on the numerous tests to enter bbon ony— on the numerous tests to enter bbon ony obben— on the numerous tests to enter than any other demographic. heterosexual— than any other demographic. heterosexual men— than any other demographic. heterosexual men are- than any other demographic. heterosexual men are much more likely than white heterosexual women or black men or anyone to have. we have been so tight on bbne.— have. we have been so tight on bbne. bbve— have. we have been so tight on bbne. bbve gob— have. we have been so tight on bbne. bbve gob bo— have. we have been so tight on time. i've got to end— we have been so tight on time. i've got to end it there.

bebbe— time. i've got to end it there. bebbe eonny— time. i've got to end it there. bebbe eonny bb— time. i've got to end it there. let's carry it on— time. i've got to end it there. let's carry it on in- time. i've got to end it there. let's carry it on in the green room, i'm afraid.— let's carry it on in the green room, i'm afraid. steven boneboye— room, i'm afraid. steven barclays interview is overrun bbne.— barclays interview is overrun bbne. we— barclays interview is overrun our time. we haven't got enough bbne— our time. we haven't got enough bbne bon— our time. we haven't got enough time for. segment,- our time. we haven't got enough time for segment, but we'll time for this segment, but we'll be-nexb— time for this segment, but we'll be-nexb-ob- time for this segment, but we'll be-next-at 930. - time for this segment, but we'll be next at 930. and be back next week at 930. and bbeoee— be back next week at 930. and bbeoee-bnned— be back next week at 930. and please-tuned for- be back next week at 930. and please tuned for michael please stay tuned for michael bonbbbbo— please stay tuned for michael bonbbbbo .— please stay tuned for michael portillo . a&e— please stay tuned for michael portillo . a&e .—

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program at the prestigious tric awards . awards. good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. a morning and midday mosey through