gb news. >> good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company this morning. been a funny old weekend and now ordinarily we have a minister from the government and a shadow minister to discuss the issues of the week we ask for victoria week and we did ask for victoria atkins to come for on the government and we asked for rachel reeves, the shadow chancellor, come and chancellor, to come on and discuss tax spend discuss their tax and spend plans decided not to. plans, but they decided not to. clearly they don't care enough about gb views and listeners to talk about how they plan to spend your money. so just with that in mind, we decided to invite grown ups the invite some grown ups on the show instead. so i'm delighted to that we've got alan to say that we've got alan milburn, labour milburn, who's a new labour bigwig and served as health bigwig and also served as health secretary, discuss tony secretary, to discuss tony blair's nhs reform plans. he's been intervening again into the nhs by suggesting that you should be able to jump the queue, pay to jump the queue a bit of part privatisation for the former labour prime minister i'm going to be speaking to

i'm also going to be speaking to ian tory ian duncan—smith, former tory leader and a big figure on the right of the party. i want to ask him whether the chancellor, jeremy hunt, to rule jeremy hunt, is right to rule out tax cuts ahead of the next general election. also general election. we're also going to be discussing everything involving ukraine and indeed coming nato indeed the fourth coming nato summit lithuania, summit in lithuania, which happens week . we've got happens next week. we've got biden flying tonight with the biden flying in tonight with the former deputy chief of defence staff, sir simon male, and he'll be talking us through that, as well as biden's suggestions that be talking us through that, as we|should1en's suggestions that be talking us through that, as we|should1en's cluster ions that be talking us through that, as we|should1en's cluster bombsat be talking us through that, as we|should1en's cluster bombs to we should send cluster bombs to ukraine. and we've got a london mayoral in moss hussain mayoral hopeful in moss hussain will be joining us as part of a series where hope to next series where we hope to next week his opponent, week interview his opponent, susan they both want the susan hall. they both want the mayoral crown, but let's first of all, just run through the front pages of the newspapers. let's start with the sunday telegraph. now, this is a big story we're discussing in just a minute. bbc under fire over explicit scandal while explicit pictures. scandal while the sunday times also goes with that story, it's significant to see the broadsheets both covering bbc crisis over star paying covering bbc crisis over star paying teens for sex photos . the

paying teens for sex photos. the observer goes with reopen uk borders to eu workers . that's an borders to eu workers. that's an interview with former environmental secretary george eustice . sunday mirror bbc star eustice. sunday mirror bbc star partied with bosses after sets complaint at the sunday express has got an update to a story that affects my fellow gb news presenter nigel farage woke banks are a risk to national security, and this is about how defence companies are struggling to get bank accounts . mail on to get bank accounts. mail on sunday goes with again the bbc see crisis over top star in sex photos probe and the sun on sunday. unsurprisingly because it broke the story the sun in the week bbc star sent pants pic to teen's mum's shock at x—rated mobile image . well blimey mobile image. well blimey o'riley, what a story . and to o'riley, what a story. and to discuss all that, i'm joined by michael crick, a legend of a political report , former political report, former newsnight and channel 4 news political editor. newsnight and channel 4 news political editor . thank you for political editor. thank you for joining me, michael. let's get

started on the sex scandal that is currently on the front pages. i mean, it's a difficult one. this because, of course, legally we rather restricted as to what we rather restricted as to what we say. and these are only allegations. but again, it mires the in controversy. i don't the bbc in controversy. i don't know paper reviews i've know how many paper reviews i've done bbc been on done where the bbc has been on the front pages for all the wrong reasons. well well, this is a biggie. >> the story is true, and >> if the story is true, and i think in the next few days we're not only going to learn who this presenter is, but also how the bbc is going. it looks like the bbc's in a lot of trouble because the mother of the teenager and it's not clear whether it's a male or female teenager says they have complained to the bbc . well, complained to the bbc. well, what happened to that complaint was it followed up. it it appears not to have been. and so the bbc is going to be in trouble for that, for for not not responding. >> it's got history because of savile and rolf harris and stuart hall. >> and that was the pattern. that was the pattern that we saw

then. yes. >> how damaging do you think it is.7 >> is? >> well, it is hugely damaging. i think it's bigger than most of the bbc scandals . i mean, there the bbc scandals. i mean, there is a bbc scandal every year or so. yes. these days. but i think it's bigger than than nearly all of them. >> a household name. now let's move on to another household name, at least in tory politics. we're this just stop oil we're calling this just stop oil stunt the week . what stunt of the week. what do we make? know know the bride make? i know you know the bride in case. so thea rogers, i in this case. so thea rogers, i think used to be one of your producers. that's right. married george osborne yesterday. lovely ceremony. gets disrupted ceremony. but it gets disrupted by a just stop oil protester. >> yes. to work for >> yeah. yes. i used to work for me when i was on newsnight and worked with me. and she was a brilliant producer. but after a few weeks, she was she was poached by nick robinson, who i see was was a guest at the wedding yesterday. and yeah, i mean, the there's a there's a woman here. look it looks quite an elderly woman, actually throwing orange confetti . throwing orange confetti. >> i mean, it's only confetti. >> i mean, it's only confetti. >> yeah. and i think the papers

have made a bit too much of this . it's not the worst thing in the world of government. he's not a member of government. the trouble is, if you have a rural wedding though, it is wedding like that, though, it is quite public event. you know , quite a public event. you know, people gather around the people from there were from the community. there were lots lots of lots of cameras there, lots of press there . and of course, press there. and of course, they've suffered , which i they've also suffered, which i think is much more serious. this email that went out to all the wedding guests in recent days , wedding guests in recent days, of which we can't really discuss no. but all sorts of stuff about their private lives. >> basically, it's uncomfortable . do you think it's damaging for labour to associated with labour to be associated with dale given them dale vince, who's given them money but is also a backer of just oil just stop oil >> well, this the basic >> well, this is the basic problem. has too problem. labour has too many labour , as you know, labour supporters, as you know, sort the middle class ones sort of the middle class ones from kind of seats that from the kind of seats that trying win, win back in trying to win, win, win back in the south. that be so the south. that may not be so worried about that. but what labour has to bear in mind labour also has to bear in mind is red wall seats, the is the, the red wall seats, the working class seats in the midlands so midlands and the north and so on, where may be a problem. on, where that may be a problem. so i think there are mixed

views, mixed views on that. let's the bank ban latest. >> obviously , it's an issue >> obviously, it's an issue close to my fellow gb news presenter farage's heart presenter nigel farage's heart because he's had his banking completely interfered with. he's not able to open a bank account with coutts anymore because they've banned him. we hear they've banned him. we now hear from sunday express woke from the sunday express woke banks to national banks of risk to national security. we also hear that even the chancellor, according to the sunday telegraph, had been denied a bank account. this is becoming i thought this story would sort of be a one person story and it would just dampen down. we've heard from people who critical views who have gender critical views who've banned from a bank who've been banned from a bank account. now the chancellor the former clarke . former chancellor, ken clarke. yes, that's astonishing. >> and lots of members of the house lords and if there are house of lords and if there are all these bigwigs, all these establishment figures who are being farage isn't really being well, farage isn't really going figure going establishment figure he might but if they're might like to be, but if they're all stopped, prevented all being stopped, prevented from accounts, then from having bank accounts, then what's it like for the general public? and this is a world public? and this is in a world where it's increasingly difficult to operate these days

unless you've got bank accounts, unless you've got bank accounts, unless you've got credit cards , unless you've got credit cards, you know, a lot of payments, you can't make with cash anymore is indeed gb news is being campaigning on campaigning campaigning on that. campaigning this serious issue. this is a very serious issue. and i think the government really needs to parliament needs to investigate and maybe as a last resort, the bank of england needs to start providing bank accounts personal bank accounts, replacing their boilers with heat pumps and saying that men can get pregnant. >> at the moment, michael, to be concerning themselves with that , blue labour , let's talk about blue labour because the times page is because the times front page is interesting . labour mirrors tory interesting. labour mirrors tory spends plans. this is a bit of an odd way to campaign. >> it is, but that's the way that campaigning happens in this country these days. happened country these days. it happened way 1997. you'll way back in 1997. you'll remember tony blair was remember when tony blair was trying to get back into government, get into government and successfully did. and labour committed themselves to ken clarke's spending plans and clarke's spending ban plans and afterwards ken clarke said they were bonkers. i wasn't going to stick to those spending plans

myself if now the situation may be slightly different. and of course the conservatives, when they were in opposition in 20 years ago, they committed to labour's spending plans for quite a long time . quite a long time. >> the electorate looks at both parties and says there isn't really a paper between them. there's no jeopardy now in the tories saying, oh, don't vote for to for labour. they're going to spend your money. spend more of your money. they're us to the hilt. they're taxing us to the hilt. >> another >> and then there's another story sunday in the story in the sunday in the sunday times about how, you know, starmer he doesn't know, starmer saying he doesn't like what's the i'm not interested tree huggers . in interested in tree huggers. in fact, hate them. apparently fact, i hate them. apparently he's with he's discussion with ed miliband. right. miliband. that's right. >> tree hugger , isn't he? >> the mr tree hugger, isn't he? >> the mr tree hugger, isn't he? >> i mean here is labour really trying to make it look like it's not really. he's not really . not really. he's not really. it's a very it's a repeat of the, the new labour strategy from 25 years ago, which of course was very successful. do you think it'll work again? michael well, it looks like it's working and starmer is not a tony blair, you know, and of course starmer was meeting rupert murdoch the day rupert murdoch the other day just as, as blair did all

just as, as, as blair did all those years ago. he will do that. >> that's what i say about it. >> that's what i say about it. >> let's look at the by elections then, because we've had the archetypal photograph of a hugging baby had the archetypal photograph of a almost hugging baby had the archetypal photograph of a almost huggingugging baby had the archetypal photograph of a almost huggingugbaby baby had the archetypal photograph of a almost huggingugbaby looking or almost hugging a baby looking at he's gone up to at a baby. he's gone up to selby. i mean, he needs to because it looks like the tories . think they might lose . do you think they might lose all elections? . do you think they might lose all i elections? . do you think they might lose all i think elections? . do you think they might lose all i think they ctions? . do you think they might lose all i think they will|s? . do you think they might lose all i think they will lose all >> i think they will lose all these by elections. well, we've got three scheduled at the moment, we? selby and moment, haven't we? selby and uxbridge, somerton uxbridge, farage and somerton and frome, which is the lib dems are hoping to take that mid beds because nadine is. >> well i don't, i don't think that byelection will ever happen. >> i think she will carry on until the general election. >> waiting on chris >> we're also waiting on chris pincher, potentially freeing up his seat in tamworth. >> that are >> yeah, but the three that are taking july the 20th, taking place on july the 20th, i think that is going to be three defeats for the actually the best conservatives, best hope. i think , although is think ironically, although is uxbndge think ironically, although is uxbridge , even though the margin uxbridge, even though the margin for labour is less well because uxbndge for labour is less well because uxbridge is complicated . uxbridge is complicated. >> there's an interestingly named labour candidate for uxbridge, i understand . are we

uxbridge, i understand. are we not allowed to talk? >> we're not allowed to name candidates. no, no. and also the whole ulez policy, the ultra low emissions zone policy, which is put forward by sadiq khan and both keir starmer and the party in uxbridge have disowned it. yes. >> by the way, if we name one candidate, we have to name them all and we don't have time. that's that's right. and i've got moss hussein coming in. i mean, a ulez might be big mean, a ulez might be a big issue, but general, i mean, issue, but in general, i mean, seeing sunak going to seeing rishi sunak going to selby, is that a sign of desperation? no. prime ministers, always to ministers, you always used to go and in elections. and campaign in by elections. they about 20 years ago. >> they didn't. and then tony blair started it. funnily enough, in uxbridge after his 97 election with a majority election victory with a majority of 176, he got greedy . he of 176, he got greedy. he decided he wanted to increase the majority by another two, so he went and campaigned in uxbridge. david cameron campaigned five times in rochester and strood. so it is these days. prime ministers do campaign in by elections. and of course , you've got to remember course, you've got to remember that rishi sunak is a yorkshire

mp and this is taking a north yorkshire mp and it's fair, it's fairly local to that northern richmond, not the southern one. >> and just a final word, please, on nadhim zahawi. what is a sentence? this is he doing in a sentence? this is he doing in a sentence? this is extraordinary. is he doing in a sentence? this is eweiordinary. is he doing in a sentence? this is ewe haven't. is he doing in a sentence? this is ewe haven't heard the >> we haven't heard from the former zahawi former chancellor, nadhim zahawi since he was out of since he was pushed out of governance by a scandal. but governance by by a scandal. but he daniel kawczynski he did back daniel kawczynski literally hour before daniel literally an hour before daniel kawczynski down. kawczynski stood down. >> but anyway, carry on. and. and now appearing in an and he's now appearing in an an itv about the post office itv drama about the post office scandal. >> the post office postmasters scandal that itv doing playing himself a backbench mp . himself a backbench mp. >> uh, an interesting segway career wise. we wait. >> well, it's the sign. it's a sign that all these conservative mps really haven't got enough to do at westminster and they're going off and doing other things like presenter like being gb news. presenter nothing wrong with that. >> michael nothing with that. >> well, i don't know. we love to on gb news now. to see them on gb news now. >> michael crick thank you very much biting with your much as ever. biting with your commentary . now olivia is commentary. now olivia utley is in medway olivia what questions in medway. olivia what questions have panel got for

have the panel got for our guests today ? guests today? >> yes, i'm in a rather drizzly rochester this morning, but we've got a perfect english scene behind us, and we're very excited to be with another fantastic people's panel at tiny tim's of rochester. >> lovely little cafe here. and they're really looking forward to putting their questions to your politicians this morning. but first, let me introduce you to steve. he's the manager of tiny tim's here in rochester. lovely cafe. we love the union jacks. the god save the king banner behind the counter. just what we like to see at gb news. and how's how's business going for you? >> stephen powis is good. it's going to work at the moment. bear mind, with rising costs, bear in mind, with rising costs, we're battling with we're still battling on with books are fully booked for a few more which good. more weeks, which is good. >> is there anything >> excellent. is there anything the doing the government could be doing to make easier for you? make life a bit easier for you? >> try and reduce the energy bills they're going up to bills as they're going up to shockingly been shockingly high as has been tripled three tripled in the past three months. so yeah, we need them to come down. >> yeah . i come down. >> yeah. i think come down. >> yeah . i think there are quite >> yeah. i think there are quite a small owners a lot of small business owners

up the country who up and down the country who would much agree with you would very much agree with you there. but thank you for having us much in beautiful us so much in this beautiful cafe morning. yeah, and cafe this morning. yeah, and this our fantastic people's this is our fantastic people's panel today. we've got ben. we've martin we've got we've got martin and we've got paul. we've got martin and we've got paul . and course, one of the paul. and of course, one of the big stories this week is the 75th anniversary of the nhs. and ben, we were talking a little bit about this earlier. there are those who say that without urgent reform, the nhs won't make it to its hundredth birthday. do you think that's right, or is that a bit of an overreaction? >> i think it is, right. i think you have to look at every single option. and if reform, um, can make progress, then make it progress, then absolutely it. if you absolutely 100% do it. if you just that giving money just think that giving it money is it grow, then is going to make it grow, then you need to do a loads more work than that 100. but i don't trust neither rishi sunak keir neither of rishi sunak or keir starmer it. i mean, rishi starmer to fix it. i mean, rishi sunak a to cut sunak has a pledge to cut waiting lists as kwasi has. yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i think that sort of scepticism is something which which quite a few voters around the country would probably agree with it'll be fascinating to with and it'll be fascinating to see what those voting by

elections the next few weeks make rishi sunak progress on make of rishi sunak progress on the nhs of course, martin, the nhs and of course, martin, one of the other big issues facing country at the moment facing the country at the moment is general, state of the is in general, the state of the economy. talking there is in general, the state of the econ0|high talking there is in general, the state of the econ0|high energy:alking there is in general, the state of the econ0|high energy billsg there is in general, the state of the econ0|high energy bills . there is in general, the state of the econ0|high energy bills . that's about high energy bills. that's about high energy bills. that's a worry for lots of people and also soaring mortgage rates, not good for homeowners . good for homeowners. >> yeah, first of all, welcome to rochester, olivia . and to rochester, olivia. and secondly , pass on my secondly, pass on my congratulations to the gb news teams that won the recent tric awards . as far as the economy is awards. as far as the economy is concerned , i think both rishi concerned, i think both rishi sunak and andrew bailey have a lot to answer for. rishi sunak needs to answer why he spread money like confetti during the covid crisis and andrew bailey allowed . inflation to rise as it allowed. inflation to rise as it did when your own liam halligan was calling it out a couple of years ago. so i feel sorry for young people nowadays who are facing this this mortgage crisis. rates of 7% are are

envisaged and it's not fair on them when they're just trying to make a start in life. they are carrying the heaviest burden. >> well, as just about young ish person with a new mortgage, i sympathise with that and paul, another issue that we've been talking about quite a lot this week is it's strikes. we've seen pubuc week is it's strikes. we've seen public sector workers go on strike for days and days at a time over the last year, and it shows no sign of ending anytime soon. teachers walked out last week can expect see week and we can expect to see more the new term. more of that in the new term. what do you make of that? is it sustainable? >> well, of course it's not sustainable. i mean, the government to talk to these government need to talk to these people and try and resolve the issues instead just walking people and try and resolve the issue�*from ead just walking people and try and resolve the issue�*from the just walking people and try and resolve the issue�*from the table. walking people and try and resolve the issue�*from the table. waltime away from the table. the time mick lynch started a trend and everyone's jumped the everyone's jumped on the bandwagon. and, you know, it's just don't seem to be an just they don't seem to be an end sight at the moment. end in sight at the moment. there needs be some discussions. >> absolutely. and daughter >> absolutely. and your daughter is so must is a nurse, so she must be feeling this pretty hard. >> well, yeah, of course. i mean, those are all promise to pay mean, those are all promise to pay rise. and apparently only

people are in trusts are people that are in trusts are going get backdated pay going to get the backdated pay rise. them aren't rise. the rest of them aren't going get it. going to get it. >> exactly. pretty worrying for all involved. we'll back to all involved. we'll be back to our panel our fantastic people's panel later. but for now, to later. but for now, over to camilla the studio . camilla in the studio. >> we'll go to gb news dot com forward slash panel. now i'm delighted to be joined now by alan milburn, former health secretary under tony blair, former chair of the social mobility commission, also former labour mp for darlington. alan lovely to speak to you this morning. let's talk about keir starmer plans for education, because i know that you wrote a piece for the times in the week where you supported himars putting rac at the centre of what he was planning for children's education. you wrote, and i quote, the educational attainment gap between poor kids and better off classmates and their better off classmates is , not narrowing. is widening, not narrowing. do you still believe that class determines children's outcomes more than, say , their own work more than, say, their own work ethic or indeed ability ? i think ethic or indeed ability? i think all of those things are important. >> i mean, social mobility is

not something that can be gifted to people. it's obviously about hard work, effort, and then you go reward. at least that was how i was brought up. that's what i was brought up to believe. but equally , we know that there's equally, we know that there's a very, very strong correlation between education and attainment, how well kids do in schools and the background that they come from and actually that correlation between social class and educational performance is stronger than it is for race or for gender. and that gap remains very wide and probably covid is widened it. and that's a real problem because it means that thousands of kids in our country who've got real potential are not getting the opportunities to progress in life that they would want or their parents would want. >> it's interesting, you mentioned the pandemic, because i going ask you whether i was going to ask you whether you that coronavirus you felt that coronavirus and the that harmed the way that that harmed children's education school children's education with school closures. cetera do closures. et cetera. do you think has stilted social think that has stilted social mobility country ? mobility in this country? >> yes, i think it probably has . and i think we're beginning to

see, are we not? now, you talk to any teacher or head teacher, and the first thing almost that they tell you, was in they will tell you, i was in barnsley this week, for barnsley earlier this week, for example, college example, and meeting a college principal employers principal there. and employers and were talking there and they were talking there about the mental health problems that are becoming obvious , that are now becoming obvious, at least to them, and probably to parents too. as a consequence really of what happened during covid. this it goes much covid. but this it goes much deeper than covid. it's a systemic problem. it's been with us for very many years, if not decades. and as i say , it's all decades. and as i say, it's all the way through from the early years through to university education. and it's a shocker , education. and it's a shocker, really. you know, that we still have educational which have an educational system which is if like, biased towards is, if you like, biased towards biased against, if you like, people from lower income backgrounds. certainly in terms of their performance. and i think that's why the focus on rac and school reform is so important because in today's world you need to be able to communicate, you need to be able to collaborate, you need to be able to work with others. and the education system that we

have the curriculum have and indeed the curriculum that is really a bit that we have is really a bit outdated. time to outdated. and it's time to change let's move on to the nhs. >> as you were health secretary for that period under blair. now, said in 1997 that you now, he said in 1997 that you had 24 hours to save the nhs. how would you assess the nhs now all these years on? >> well, look , i've been around, >> well, look, i've been around, as you indicated , many decades as you indicated, many decades around health policy , and i can around health policy, and i can honestly say this is the worst i've ever seen it. and it really is close to breaking point. i think social care, by the way, is probably broken . and so we've is probably broken. and so we've got a real problem . and what got a real problem. and what really the felony, if really compounds the felony, if you like, is that there's no plan gets out of this situation. people can't done. people say can't be done. i don't believe that. you know, i faced a very similar situation at night. people were waiting 18 months, two years for a hospital operation. people will remember that. and we got the waiting times down over the course of, you know, a number of years to no more than 18 weeks. people get to see a gp. now they can't

. cancer outcomes were improving and so on. so it is possible to do it. but you do need a plan and critically, you need not just money, but you do need radical reform of the system because it's just not set up to deal with today's problems . deal with today's problems. hospitals tend to absorb most cash in the nhs when what we really need is a system that keeps people healthy and out of hospitals so that they can be looked after in the community. but unfortunately , over these but unfortunately, over these last few years, if you think of the number of gps, for example , the number of gps, for example, they've fallen by about 7% since 2015. and that means that people needlessly end up in hospital . needlessly end up in hospital. >> well, do you think that sajid javid's suggestion of having a royal commission to look at how the nhs should be reformed is a goodidea the nhs should be reformed is a good idea ? goodidea? >> no, i don't. i mean, i think all that that does is introduce yet more delay. the truth is the government should be getting on with if there's change of with it. if there's a change of government, needs to get on government, it needs to get on with what with it. we broadly know what needs done really.

needs to be done really. we know, example, that 1 in 4 know, for example, that 1 in 4 people are in hospital today, shouldn't their provider . shouldn't be their provider. they could diagnosed and they could be diagnosed and treated soon enough. we know that 1 in 5 emergency admissions to hospital are potentially preventable . so what we've got preventable. so what we've got to do is turn the system around, get the money in the right place. critically , do these place. but critically, do these big reforms earlier this week, i was at the crick institute in london, which is one of the leading global centres, for example, in genomic science . and example, in genomic science. and you begin to see there what's possible because we can move to a world where rather than just diagnosing and treating people , diagnosing and treating people, we can now predict and prevent their health. and that's what their health. and that's what the system should be focusing on. how are we going to harness that enormous technology revolution? people hear a lot about artificial intelligence. it's part to play. but it's got a part to play. but genomic science is really the game changer. we're going to be able predict whether you're able to predict whether you're going ill and then we can going to get ill and then we can do something to prevent it. that's far more sensible. and by the much cheaper

the way, much cheaper than getting hospital. getting people into hospital. >> blair's >> and yet tony blair's institute is suggesting degree institute is suggesting a degree of it's of part privatisation. it's talking wealthier people talking about wealthier people being able to pay to jump the queue. also been talk queue. there's also been talk about charging for gp appointments for fining people if they miss appointments. what do you think of those ideas ? do you think of those ideas? >> think what tony >> well, i think what tony blair's talking about week blair's talking about this week was alerting people was just simply alerting people to fact that there are to the fact that there are opfions to the fact that there are options available for them. and of course there are. but let's be about this the be clear about this for the overwhelming majority people, overwhelming majority of people, the of the the overwhelming majority of the time, going to be nhs time, it's going to be the nhs thatis time, it's going to be the nhs that is go to provider and that is their go to provider and rightly provides rightly so, because it provides care according to the right principle , which is the size of principle, which is the size of your need, not the size of your wallet. however, this is what we've really got to think about. we've got to think about how do we use the private sector in all of its guises, not just private providers, to treat nhs patients, but just think about all the advances that we're seeing in biomedicine . if we seeing in biomedicine. if we think about the advances that we're seeing in machine learning, they don't come from

the public sector. they come from private sector. and from the private sector. and in my have a very my view, we should have a very open about how we utilise open mind about how we utilise private sector capability and capacity to treat nhs patients . capacity to treat nhs patients. that's what we did all those years ago . it was a contributor years ago. it was a contributor to getting nhs waiting lists down and it can be again and has tom moore got the solutions to these problems as admittedly the labour party are well ahead of the conservatives in the polls, but at the same time the electorate seems to be rather ambivalent about sir keir. >> he's not heir to blair, >> he's not the heir to blair, is he? >> well , it's is he? >> well, it's a very different type of character. that's perfectly but honestly, perfectly obvious. but honestly, i he's seriously he's been i think he's seriously he's been seriously underestimated . did seriously underestimated. did keir starmer i mean, i read the report that came out on the nhs. i read the one that came out this week in camilla on education. there are some really radical reform ideas in there , radical reform ideas in there, and the thing that he's got is that , look, the country's in that, look, the country's in a terrible mess. it's not just the

nhs, it's across the piece you've been talking about strikes. you know, we're going to have to transition the economy going economy because it's going to become time. we become greener over time. we need about new jobs as need to think about new jobs as i think the thing that he's recognised above all else at recognised is above all else at the deep seated the at these are deep seated challenges . they're going to challenges. they're going to take time to right and you take time to put right and you need a serious government with a serious order to do that i >> -- >> okay, alan milburn, thank you very much indeed joining us very much indeed forjoining us this lots more to come. this morning. lots more to come. on today's i'm going to be on today's show, i'm going to be speaking tory leader speaking to former tory leader sir iain duncan smith in just a minute. first, here's the minute. but first, here's the weather. temperatures weather. the temperatures are rising, solar proud rising, boxed solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello there. i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. we've got heavy showers in the forecast. once again today, but there will be plenty of sunny spells too. still feeling quite warm and humid and low pressure sits to the west of us at the moment, bringing in those showers the some of showers across the uk, some of them thundery at them heavy and thundery at times. as we move through

times. and as we move through the next few days, that low pressure move pressure just starts to move over increasing the risk over us. so increasing the risk of those heavy showers, even more. this morning, plenty of sunshine from the word go, though we do have some patchy rain southeast england. rain across southeast england. a few possible here few heavier bursts possible here and rain clearing far and also rain clearing the far north scotland. but it is the north of scotland. but it is the showers we're going to watch as we the day, we'll we move through the day, we'll turn particularly turn they'll turn particularly heavy of northern heavy across parts of northern ireland, across into wales, the midlands, england, midlands, southwest england, some thunder, hail, some rumbles of thunder, hail, gusty possible , too. in gusty winds, possible, too. in between, plenty of sunny between, though, plenty of sunny spells. and that will lift temperatures towards the 20s temperatures towards the mid 20s . as we move through the evening time, we'll continue to see showers pushed across the showers pushed north across the uk, some of them heavy and thundery we see some thundery. we could see some local travel disruption, but they away as we end they should fade away as we end they should fade away as we end the day. and then most places dry clear spells dry overnight with clear spells and perhaps a few shallow mist and perhaps a few shallow mist and fog patches forming by the end of the night. a little fresher tonight. temperatures generally 12 to 15 celsius in most towns and cities, a little lower in the countryside , but it lower in the countryside, but it means plenty of sunshine for

monday morning, just some cloud and patchy rain across the far north of scotland . and as north of scotland. and then as that pressure edges near us, that low pressure edges near us, we will see outbreaks of rain starting move affecting starting to move in, affecting parts of northern ireland, west wales , the west country up into wales, the west country up into western scotland to some showers here. best sunshine here. best of the sunshine across eastern and south—east england. here, temperatures reaching again close to the mid 20s , a little bit fresher as the 20s, a little bit fresher as the breeze further west. breeze picks up further west. and rain moves in, it stays and that rain moves in, it stays unsettled as that low pressure moves in over the coming days. further heavy showers across the uk and temperatures starting to come down a little nearer to average . see you soon. average. see you soon. >> the temperatures rising , >> the temperatures rising, boxed solar proud sponsors of weather on .

gb news. welcome back to the camilla tominey show in just a jiffy, i'm going to be speaking to former tory leader sir iain duncan smith. >> don't go anywhere. first, here's the headlines with rory smith . smith.

>> thank you very much, camilla. new allegations have emerged about the bbc presenter who allegedly paid a teenager tens of thousands of pounds for explicit images. the young person's mother has told the sun she saw a photo of the man in his underwear on her child's phone, which looked like it was taken from a video call. to quell speculation, a number of bbc presenters posted messages on social media to say they're not involved in the scandal. mps are now calling for a full and transparent investigation nation. the broadcaster says it treats any allegations seriously . britain is preparing to host the us president, who is due to arrive this evening. joe biden will meet the king at windsor castle tomorrow . he'll then hold castle tomorrow. he'll then hold talks with the prime minister , talks with the prime minister, rishi sunak, where he is expected to raise concerns over brexit. america's decision to send cluster munitions to ukraine could also be discussed

. well, joe biden's visit comes ahead of the nato summit in lithuania , where the prime lithuania, where the prime minister will urge allies to bolster their defence spending . bolster their defence spending. speaking in vilnius on tuesday , speaking in vilnius on tuesday, rishi sunak is expected to say we're seeing unprecedented security challenges. the uk remains one of the few nato members meeting the alliance's requirement to spend at least 2% of national income on defence. the chancellor is set to outline so—called evolutionary pension reforms to boost economic growth. jeremy hunt plans to make changes to pension funds, encouraging investors to support fast growing businesses. well, in a speech tomorrow . he's in a speech tomorrow. he's expected to say the changes will be gradual, not drastic . the be gradual, not drastic. the government says the aim is to help savers, pension schemes and the uk . concerns have been the uk. concerns have been raised about the thousands of display st ukrainians who are still in temporary accommodation

in scotland. the liberal democrats say more than 3000 ukrainians are still in hotels at around 700 are on board the ms victoria cruise ship. the party says progress has been slow and it criticised the lack of resources , as the government of resources, as the government says it's working on longer term housing. and the met office is warning of more heavy showers and thunderstorms later. it's after rain and storms disrupted major sporting events like wimbledon and the ashes yesterday. will the met office is predicting prolonged heavy rain in scotland. well, northern ireland will face strong winds, hail and potential flooding . hail and potential flooding. heavy showers are also expected to hit wales, the midlands and southwest england . tv online southwest england. tv online dab+ radio and on tunein. this is gb news nato.

>> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lots more to come. i'm going to be speaking to former tory leader sir iain duncan smith in just a minute, sir. mayall is us sir. simon mayall is the us right send cluster bombs to right to send cluster bombs to ukraine? i'm going to be asking that of the deputy chief that of the former deputy chief of staff and mos of defence staff and mos hussein, hopeful hussein, who's the tory hopeful trying to win london. he's going to speaking to me his to be speaking to me about his background growing up in abject poverty bangladesh. but sir poverty in bangladesh. but sir iain duncan smith as build former tory mr chingford former tory leader mr chingford and woodford green joins me now. sir ian, lovely see you. sir ian, lovely to see you. fresh from ukraine, which we'll get on to just a minute. now get on to in just a minute. now i you've the front i know you've seen the front pages the newspapers, the sun pages of the newspapers, the sun on sunday bbc star on sunday reporting bbc star sent picked a teen mum's sent pants, picked a teen mum's shock at x—rated mobile image. do you think this household name should been suspended should have been suspended immediately these immediately that these allegations to light allegations came to light pending investigation? bbc pending investigation? the bbc have bungled this, haven't they? >> quite know what >> i don't quite know what they're a mess. they're doing. it's an a mess. clearly if you read the newspaper reports, see newspaper reports, you can see that has tried to play

that the bbc has tried to play this down from the beginning and it's worked because it's it's not worked because it's exploded. don't have any exploded. they don't have any plan, any any inquiries are plan, any any inquiries that are taking place seem to be a mess. and that's led to a whole series of reputational damage across the newspapers to the bbc. the bbc should act like everybody else does immediately suspend somebody pending the investigation action. and that way it's clear and then it can get on with it. at this stage, try and it quietly and behind try and do it quietly and behind the never works the scenes. it never works because blown the because somebody has blown the gaff in trouble over gaff and they're in trouble over it . it. >> know you've it. know you've just it. >> know you've just come >> now, i know you've just come back from ukraine literally in the last 24 hours. where have you you been doing? >> well, i went with with labour mp rushanara ali. i've been working with charity called working with a charity called siobhan's out siobhan's trust that went out there their own accord, very there of their own accord, very british, way british, sort of wonderful way of right at the of doing things right at the beginning the war, they've beginning of the war, they've been feeding displaced people, beginning of the war, they've been feall,|g displaced people, beginning of the war, they've been feall,|g (and aced people, beginning of the war, they've been feall,|g (and around ople, beginning of the war, they've been feall,|g (and around the , first of all, up and around the border, moved right border, but they've moved right down close to the front, right. they've it through they've they do it through pizzas. they have these big pizzas. they have these big pizza trucks around pizza trucks going around and cooking it brings cooking these pizzas. it brings a of joy to people's hearts.

cooking these pizzas. it brings a people to people's hearts. cooking these pizzas. it brings a people to jthere,'s hearts. cooking these pizzas. it brings a people to jthere,| hearts. cooking these pizzas. it brings a people to jthere, i mean,. >> people out there, i mean, what's the. >> you what's the. » you >> well, you know, they're they're worried. they want this offensive succeed ed and offensive to succeed ed and but there them you find there are many of them you find living very small living in very small accommodation, multiple children , of stuff, , all this sort of stuff, because they're their husbands. their the front their partners are at the front and they can't fend for themselves . so the charity themselves. so the charity bnngs themselves. so the charity brings joy in their brings a bit of joy in their hearts and it's great to see they done over a million pizzas to people near the front, families that are destitute. et cetera. part what we cetera. which is part of what we do. and they're you learn a lot about what's on and the about what's going on and the difficulties face. we difficulties they face. and we had meetings with had lots of meetings with ukrainian military people, as well some british military people. >> having been on ground >> having been on the ground there, you made there, i wondered what you made of biden's suggestion or of joe biden's suggestion or indeed to send indeed willingness to send cluster bombs to ukraine. there's some concern about this. there's some concern about this. the uk , the french and the the uk, the french and the germans are saying not sure this is a good idea because of the collateral caused collateral damage caused to civilians what think? civilians. what do you think? >> well, i don't normally get on very with joe biden, but i very well with joe biden, but i have to that i think the have to say that i think the americans this. americans are right on this. they've been asked for these by

the ukrainians for long time the ukrainians for a long time because they're cluster because they're facing cluster munitions russia. it's all munitions from russia. it's all very us sit back and very well for us to sit back and say, don't like the idea say, oh, we don't like the idea of munitions, but the of cluster munitions, but the russians them every russians are using them every day them. and therefore, day on them. and therefore, their number their problem is twofold. number one, haven't received one, they still haven't received from nato enough artillery ammunition . so had they had all ammunition. so had they had all that artillery ammunition , they that artillery ammunition, they probably wouldn't be making this request just there would request just because there would have to pound those have been able to pound those russian positions very directly . now, they suffer two . but right now, they suffer two problems. huge problems. there's a huge minefield. the russians have put across all the across across all the way across ukraine. it's very deep and they don't have the right equipment to clear minefields , which to clear those minefields, which has to a slower advance than has led to a slower advance than was most was originally anticipated. most because we aren't able to supply them. not the british necessarily, but everybody hasn't supplied them with the right and right levels of ammunition. and they desperately . they need that desperately. there is huge stockpile of there is a huge stockpile of these in america which were never destroyed , and that's why never destroyed, and that's why they've because they've asked for those, because they're otherwise getting they're otherwise not getting they're otherwise not getting the ammunition supply the level of ammunition supply at moment. at the moment. >> west have found >> and the west have found asleep the wheel you're

asleep at the wheel here. you're talking dragging their talking about dragging their feet weapons. feet generally on weapons. obviously, having obviously, we're still having this support, this debate over air support, but your view on that ? but what's your view on that? >> have done this ages >> we should have done this ages before cluster air before cluster bombs or air support ? well, both the cluster support? well, both the cluster bombs well, the cluster bombs are because we haven't are there because we haven't done enough in artillery support. i'm not blaming the uk because uk has probably done because the uk has probably done more most the americans, more than most the americans, but americans, americans and more than most the americans, but british|ericans, americans and more than most the americans, but british havens, americans and more than most the americans, but british have donenericans and more than most the americans, but british have done quite ns and the british have done quite a lot. the biggest problem of lot. but the biggest problem of the is the americans at the moment is the americans at the moment is the absence training for the absence of training for pilots f—16 . i think the pilots on f—16. i think the dutch are ready to dutch and the danes are ready to give their f—16s, but their pilots need to be trained. the uk the gun quite rightly uk jumped the gun quite rightly and training, and said they'd start training, i august. but now i think, in august. but now president biden has reacted, which why we understand he which is why we understand he didn't allow ben wallace to become candidate. didn't allow ben wallace to bec doe candidate. didn't allow ben wallace to bec do you candidate. didn't allow ben wallace to bec do you candofite. didn't allow ben wallace to bec do you candof that? >> do you think of that? >> do you think of that? >> i thought if it's true, >> well, i thought if it's true, i think it's ridiculous. >> you're about ben >> you're talking about ben wallace blocked from being wallace being blocked from being the nato. the head of nato. >> would been >> he would have been the perfect hindenburg's given perfect hindenburg's been given another there's talk of ursula >> i know there's talk of ursula von der leyen. >> i know she was she was an abject failure as well. >> she's the that slashed

>> she's the one that slashed all defence spending, all their defence spending, which they had to no which is why they had next to no equipment when the ukraine war broke out. equipment when the ukraine war bro so )ut. wouldn't support >> so you wouldn't support van der ben would der leyen? no, i think ben would have a perfect position. have been a perfect position. >> he's well trusted by everybody there well. everybody there as well. >> a sign of biden's >> is that a sign of biden's sort of anti britishness? we saw this come out when visited this come out when he visited dubun this come out when he visited dublin northern dublin for longer than northern ireland. he's made a number of different comments, he, ireland. he's made a number of diffe seem omments, he, ireland. he's made a number of diffe seem omme not he, ireland. he's made a number of diffe seem omme not exactly 1e, that seem to be not exactly nurturing relationship? >> so. i think somebody >> i think so. i think somebody described him as viscerally anti—british, coming from his mother. cetera. but i don't anti—british, coming from his mothewhether:era. but i don't anti—british, coming from his mothewhether:eraisyut i don't anti—british, coming from his mothewhether:erais or i don't anti—british, coming from his mothewhether:era is or ision't anti—british, coming from his mothewhether:era is or is not. know whether he is or is not. but i know that right now but i do know that right now there is a big division about attitudes to uk and america, attitudes to the uk and america, the very keen the republic lions are very keen on with the uk. all on strong ties with the uk. all of their candidates have said so. he is not as keen, he's more lukewarm. he's trying to forge new with the french new links with the french and the germans. but what they find the germans. but what they find the time that the americans every time is that these do these countries don't do anything amount of anything like the amount of support from the uk. support that comes from the uk. when america's when america america's in trouble. i've always said trouble. and i've always said when britain are when america and britain are parted various reasons, parted for various reasons, that's happen. that's when disasters happen. like vietnam. cetera. because that's when disasters happen. like vietnthere cetera. because that's when disasters happen. like vietnthere to etera. because that's when disasters happen. like vietnthere to help. because that's when disasters happen. like vietnthere to help get cause that's when disasters happen. like vietnthere to help get the .e we're not there to help get the direction right. it's

direction right. so it's important for the uk. us alliance still the strongest alliance is still the strongest there amount there is because of the amount we on defence and we spend on defence and the amount cooperation have on amount of cooperation we have on intelligence be stronger intelligence must be stronger with trump as president. with donald trump as president. >> again, i, you know, i don't think trump will make great think trump will make a great president if he gets elected. >> i would rather see the others good the good candidates in the republican party moment republican party at the moment to elected. and i think it to get elected. and i think it would be a good some would be a good idea if some of those who do crack of the whip. well, i like governor of well, i like the governor of california very well, california of florida very well, but like mike pompeo, who but i also like mike pompeo, who was excellent state was an excellent state secretary, very good. but i'm just thinking about your concerns china , not just concerns about china, not just russia the idea that russia and the idea that actually biden's been weak and he's been weak on behalf of the west whether you agree with west and whether you agree with that. the one thing america that. well the one thing america has strong on china has been quite strong on china and, you know, i'm sanctioned by the for the chinese government for calling the. calling out the. >> you wear that like a badge of honoun >> well, i try i try to avoid it like a badge of honour. otherwise, my family gets sanctioned alongside as well. sanctioned alongside me as well. so americans, by and so but the americans, by and large, one they are large, the one area they are unhed

large, the one area they are united generally is on china. united on generally is on china. and an important point. >> should ukraine be fast tracked into nato? i think there needs to be strong process needs to be a strong process that acknowledges nato's destination rather than that destination rather than that destination of the ukraine will be at some point in nato. >> i understand why nato is concerned about doing this right now because this would then suck nato into more commitment, which would include ground forces to protect ukraine from article 5, which is an attack on one is an attack on all. so i can understand why there's hesitation, but we need to send stronger signals that the direction of travel for the ukraine, being equal ukraine, all things being equal , nato. and that's , is entry into nato. and that's what they're asking. they know they entry. now they can't get entry. now are they can't get entry. now are they just asking some they just asking for some process that there is a process that says there is a process that says there is a process now we're accepting that your destination in due course is likely to be there, but it won't happen immediately. >> tory >> before we get on to tory matters, i was intrigued by your response the snp suggestion response to the snp suggestion that drugs should be decriminalised i know decriminalised because i know you've a lot of work on you've done a lot of work on this for the centre for social justice. this is your thinktank?

yeah. drugs be yeah. should drugs be decriminalised this decriminalised or is this absolutely ridiculous idea? absolutely a ridiculous idea? >> does the work in >> anybody that does the work in this knows bonkers . it this knows it's bonkers. it doesn't been tried doesn't work. it's been tried everywhere the you do, everywhere. the moment you do, what the amount of what happens is the amount of drug taking rises. gangs love this idea , you know, i know. this idea, you know, i know. happen to know that criminal gangs whooping delight gangs were whooping with delight when they this when they heard this announcement. know we've got announcement. we know we've got contacts. the truth is that's what they want because that increases. therefore the likelihood a lot of threat likelihood a lot of the threat of is one of the of criminality is one of the reasons why you stifle some of the purchasing power, which keeps slightly more keeps the market slightly more under the that the under control. the idea that the war drugs hasn't won, hasn't war on drugs hasn't won, hasn't been won, you're never going to win absolute ban on drugs. win an absolute ban on drugs. but do is you you but what you do is you you narrow the marketplace and therefore it more difficult therefore make it more difficult for means for people to get drugs, means they're likely to take it. for people to get drugs, means theythat likely to take it. for people to get drugs, means theythat meansly to take it. for people to get drugs, means theythat means you take it. for people to get drugs, means theythat means you have it. for people to get drugs, means theythat means you have to treat and that means you have to treat those. right now, we have a serious crisis going on in drug treatment. what we need is more rehabilitation, not just opening the doors to drugs that have cut funding to drug rehabilitation. >> well, this is alcohol funding. >> well, this has gone on for a

while. i've been involved in these organisations at the centre social the centre for social justice. the key thing now better key thing is now better rehabilitation with real choices about outcomes . if you said, about outcomes. if you said, look, you can either take the criminal you can go to criminal course or you can go to rehabilitation do in rehabilitation like they do in in and norway, then in in sweden and norway, then that would be a better route for us to take. >> let's move on to tax hunters ruled out more any tax cuts before the next general election. is that lunacy? >> well, you know, the government's always say one thing and eventually do thing and then eventually do well. i personally believe we have to get the economy moving . have to get the economy moving. far people are now far too many people are now suffering of issues. suffering because of the issues. i understand of that. a lot of organising chaos by the bank in terms of the inflation level. so interest rates have risen to a degree. i'm worried we're going to overkill the economy with interest i think what interest rates. so i think what we to do, and i'm sure we have to do, and i'm sure they're is to plan to make they're doing is to plan to make sure we can get tax burdens down. >> do you think rishi sunak is doing well? i mean, you backed boris. he's not delivering his five there five deliverables. well there are some externals that are

causing a real problem to him, i have to you. have to tell you. >> and i keep coming back to the fact the bank is responsible for quite a big chunk why our quite a big chunk of why our inflation high and inflation rate is so high and why interest are higher. why interest rates are higher. get what do i get beyond that. what do i instinctively believe he instinctively believe that he wants do? believe he wants wants to do? i believe he wants to reduce the burden of taxation. >> he's got deliverables >> he's got five deliverables that to be delivered. that can't seem to be delivered. we've the potential for five we've got the potential for five by elections. we've got some of your colleagues talking about how with a period how you could do with a period in opposition. to hear in opposition. i'd love to hear from as a former leader in from you. as a former leader in opposition, whether that's a good opposition, whether that's a goal think only people who have >> i think only people who have never in opposition look never been in opposition look forward to opposition. opposition desert in which opposition is a desert in which nobody really wants to listen to you a while because they're you for a while because they're all interested in the government and you have your infighting and so you have your infighting and so you have your infighting and problems go and all the other problems go on. it more difficult. on. it makes it more difficult. the is we've to get the answer is we've got to get our together now. and our act together now. and i think, therefore, people want to see at the next see a choice at the next election. right now, labour said next their next to nothing about their policies as they're getting away with the with just drifting along on the bafis with just drifting along on the basis be better under basis all will be better under laboun basis all will be better under labour. so we need to very labour. so we need to be very clear about the choice will

labour. so we need to be very cle at about the choice will labour. so we need to be very cle at the jt the choice will labour. so we need to be very cle at the next the choice will labour. so we need to be very cle at the next election. oice will labour. so we need to be very cle at the next election. but will be at the next election. but you're in a really marginal seat. >> are you going to win that seat? >> i'm certainly going to fight it and i plan to win it. >> but like everything else. are you worried? >> are you worried we might be facing tory facing some kind of tory apocalypse come 20, 24? i don't think this is 1996, 97. >> through and it >> i went through that and it was different. they could name you leader the you who? the leader of the labour party on the labour party was on the doorstep. tony blair. they thought a scottish thought they had a scottish banken thought they had a scottish banker, dependable, banker, solid, dependable, sitting him, and that sitting next to him, and that this soft tory party. this was like a soft tory party. then none of that takes place when you're on the doorstep. they name the they can't name you who the leader labour party is. leader of the labour party is. they know a single policy they don't know a single policy that they've they don't that they've got. they don't know anything all about the know anything at all about the nature post nature of the labour party. post corbyn. talking about corbyn. so they're talking about anger because the anger with us because of the problems, rightly but problems, quite rightly so. but what able to say to what they're not able to say to you is, i know why i want to vote for the other side. what they're at the moment they're saying at the moment is i'm going vote for you. i'm not going to vote for you. so question is, can we in so the question is, can we in the next 12 months sort that out and give them that choice, let them only way to them know that the only way to get post the worst

get this done post the worst crisis we've ever had. we always forget covid punched a hole through every single area of government. this government. and so getting this sorted giving them sorted now and giving them that choice, is a lower tax choice, that is a lower tax base, lower burden, get government off your all government off your backs all the that stuff to the time. all that stuff is to me sensible. >> ian, thank you very much >> so ian, thank you very much for me this morning. forjoining me this morning. pleasure. as you're pleasure. especially as you're slightly well, not jet lagged, but long journey but you've had a long journey home olivia, have home now, olivia, what have the people the people of medway made of the interviews? thank you, camilla. >> people's panellists here >> our people's panellists here have very have been listening very closely, few closely, and i've heard a few i've few guffaws. i've heard a few guffaws. >> heard a bit of >> i've heard a bit of frustration, and i've seen some some nodding. so let's find out what what people's what our what our people's panellists and i'm panellists have to say. and i'm going start with you. going to start with you. this time. martin were speaking time. martin you were speaking before were talking before about we were talking about of the nhs, and about the state of the nhs, and alan milburn there was talking about would what about what he would do now. what did make of that interview? about what he would do now. what did well,nake of that interview? about what he would do now. what did well, i'de of that interview? about what he would do now. what did well, i'd ask that interview? about what he would do now. what did well, i'd ask him interview? about what he would do now. what did well, i'd ask him whyrview? about what he would do now. what did well, i'd ask him why didn't >> well, i'd ask him why didn't he do the reforms when he was minister? it's something that's been and election been passed around and election after election after election, it's being used a political it's being used as a political football. we will do this. we will do that. the is the will do that. the nhs is the biggest in europe, the

biggest employer in europe, the largest employer in europe. i think last year's bill was $150 billion. this year is 180 billion. this year is 180 billion. how much? how much more money do you need to keep throwing at this thing before somebody makes it work? and i think the only thing to do is to reform it is to take it out of the hands of government control and put it into people who know what they're doing with business. >> lots of frustration there, definitely. but i've heard a plan you, martin, is plan from you, martin, which is perhaps than we've heard perhaps more than we've heard from some politicians lately. and , what did you make of and ben, what did you make of what we heard those two politicians saying? we had a labour mp, a former labour adviser and a former mp there, and we had iain duncan and then we had iain duncan smith talking about the state of the conservative party and he seemed quite frustrated actually with way his party with with the way his party is working. that anger on working. he said that anger on the completely the doorsteps was completely understandable. did you understandable. what did you make of that? do you think if someone iain duncan smith someone like iain duncan smith is the tories have is saying the tories have problems, then elections problems, then he's elections are dicey? are looking pretty dicey? >> oh, 100% agree with him. i

think the conservative think that the conservative party destroying think that the conservative party we destroying think that the conservative party we neveriestroying think that the conservative party we never woulding think that the conservative party we never would have itself. we never would have imagined 2019, but imagined this back in 2019, but you what sow in the you reap what you sow in the end. and i start to think that maybe peter hitchens was right all maybe the all along. maybe the conservative does need to conservative party does need to be order make be destroyed in order to make way another right wing way for another right wing party. knows? but they party. but who knows? but they are heavily are going to get heavily punished next year so. punished in the next year or so. >> iain duncan smith, though, is saying that there are people who saying that there are people who say that in opposition say that a spell in opposition would good for the tories, would be good for the tories, but are only but actually those are only people don't know what people who who don't know what it's being opposition. it's like being in opposition. what you think what do you think? do you think the are now sort of the tories are now sort of deserve to lose and have a bit of a dark spell to regroup? or would nightmare? would that be a nightmare? >> yeah, i do think sometimes losing helps. it gets you back to back to the to the drawing, get back to the meeting saying where it meeting room saying where did it go wrong? fix this so we go wrong? let's fix this so we can the match. so i'm can win the next match. so i'm not totally sure. i'm not saying it's bad, but i just it's entirely bad, but i just don't recovering from don't see them recovering from it people will it at all because people will say, what did you do for 13 years? you were rubbish. why should we expect give you should we expect you to give you another chance in 2029? so it may or it not. we'll

may work or it may not. we'll have to wait and see. >> you keir >> and do you think keir starmer, i mean iain duncan smith that isn't smith was saying that this isn't anything like 1997. people knew who tony blair was, he who tony blair was, people he thinks don't really know who keir starmer is. do you think that is a problem for that that is a problem for labour going into the election or simply being or is it enough simply not being the yes it is the conservatives? yes it is a big because if you just big problem because if you just stay back, it's the classic example tortoise the example of the tortoise and the hare starmer hare keir starmer is the tortoise slowly walking his tortoise just slowly walking his way to victory and the hare is running all around thinking i'm going as comfortably. >> oh no, lost. all he has >> oh no, i've lost. all he has to is just back and just to do is just sit back and just say, i don't have to answer questions or i don't have to talk wokeism or anything talk about wokeism or anything like like, no, like this. and it's like, no, this is not 1997. if this was tony blair, would have tony blair, he would have absolutely and tony blair, he would have abs�*people and tony blair, he would have abs�*people like and tony blair, he would have abs�*people like me and and got people like me and everywhere else medway or everywhere else in medway or kent or big stronghold conservative seats to vote laboun labour. no one is going to do that. well thank you very much. >> again, a pretty stark warning for and paul, what for labour. there and paul, what did of what heard did you make of what you heard there? anything that either there? did anything that either of say of those politicians say persuade that you could persuade you that that you could change what you might vote for

persuade you that that you could ch thee what you might vote for persuade you that that you could ch the nextit you might vote for persuade you that that you could ch the next election?]ht vote for persuade you that that you could ch the next election?]ht are; for persuade you that that you could ch the next election?]ht are you at the next election? or are you pretty set in stone? >> no, not at really. i >> no, not at all, really. i mean, well, conservatives mean, well, the conservatives are imploding, you know what i mean? haven't got any mean? they haven't got any policies you policies going together. you know richie's got know what i mean? richie's got his no one else seems his bit, but no one else seems to be backing him, you know? and labour nato well, labour , that's labour nato well, labour, that's our verdict here in medway, i think . think. >> i think actually you speak for quite a lot of the country when you say that. so thank you very much to all our brilliant people's panellists and thank you to steve and tiny tim's for having here. you to steve and tiny tim's for hav for here. you to steve and tiny tim's for hav for now,3re. you to steve and tiny tim's for hav for now, back to camilla you to steve and tiny tim's for havfor now, back to camilla in >> for now, back to camilla in the studio. >> thank you for that, olivia. i love this as a degree of exasperate the people's exasperate ation on the people's panel labour who knows panel today. labour who knows maybe send us of maybe they'll send us one of their shadow ministers. we maybe they'll send us one of thei actually ministers. we maybe they'll send us one of thei actually discussers. we maybe they'll send us one of thei actually discuss these we can actually discuss these issues them directly. issues with them directly. we live now , sir. simon live in hope now, sir. simon mail joins me now. he's former army general former deputy army general and former deputy chief of the defence staff. therefore the perfect man to discuss me all things discuss with me all things ukrainian and beyond. let's talk first of all, about joe biden's suggestion that the us are going to send cluster to

to send cluster bombs to ukraine. now, i know the french, the germans and indeed the british have concerns about these what do you these cluster bombs. what do you think? i think it's the think? well i think it's the right move. >> i'm afraid it's the word cluster bomb or the words cluster bomb or the words cluster bomb or the words cluster bomb do summon up a very, very emotive issue to do with conventional weaponry. part of the reason and i think iain duncan smith referred to it, is that we haven't been able to provide ukraine with enough what i would old fashioned i would call old fashioned conventional munitions we're conventional munitions. we're not enough in terms not addressing enough in terms of getting the production lines running again. of getting the production lines running again . and of course the running again. and of course the whole cluster munitions technology has has moved on. i'm very concerned about collateral damage. >> the threat to civilians. we don't want to be killing more innocent people in ukraine. >> well, i think in the areas that we're where the ukrainians would use them, there are very few left. we're few civilians left. we're talking huge defensive talking about the huge defensive minefield russians minefield belts. the russians have put in areas, i'm afraid, like bakhmut, been like bakhmut, which have been fought for months . and in fought over for months. and in some ways, the stalemate means

that we're going to continue to have people being killed, including, of course, you know , including, of course, you know, civilians every day are being killed the russians as part killed by the russians as part of collateral damage. >> it's a to cluster >> so it's a yes to cluster bombs. and what's your view on the the west bombs. and what's your view on th

on, might be a different on, it might be a different story on ground. story on the ground. >> we couldn't take the americans when came americans with us when it came to wallace being the head of nato. >> no, no, i agree. i agree. >> do you think an error >> do you think that's an error by biden? >> personally, personally, >> well, personally, personally, i it's an i absolutely do think it's an error. think ben wallace is of error. i think ben wallace is of all i've seen, is all the candidates i've seen, is the qualified and i think the best qualified and i think britain has been the most stalwart in making the case for support ukraine. been support to ukraine. it's been one most stalwart members one of the most stalwart members of security of nato. it's the security council , you know, a of nato. it's the security council, you know, a permanent security council member. it's been a very close, very close ally of the americans. and i think the way it's been slightly personalised is unfortunate . i personalised is unfortunate. i would also say that i think going back with cluster munitions, it's a pity that the americans have made the issue of cluster weapons. the issue just before we go into a very, very important nato summit at vilnius this . this week. >> and von der leyen, what do you about her name being you think about her name being in mean, i find in the frame? i mean, i find that ironic considering that germany been criticised germany has been criticised for dragging providing dragging its feet on providing weaponry, to the weaponry, weaponry to the ukraine. she didn't ukraine. and also she didn't have particularly illustrious

have a particularly illustrious history secretary there. >> no, well, i wouldn't want to make attacks, but as make ad hominem attacks, but as you rightly say, of you quite rightly say, one of the reasons germans were so the reasons the germans were so recalcitrant in supporting ukraine was they couldn't support it with anything. and a lot of that had happened. on ursula von der leyden's watch when she was defence minister. well, i would argue not. i see where the french and the germans might be coming from. they want inverted commas. of theirs inverted commas. one of theirs at top, but i nothing at the top, but i want nothing that gives any more credence to the idea of this european defence identity when nato is absolutely rock solid basis absolutely the rock solid basis on which our security risks. that's all of us in in nato and most of us in the eu. >> what's your analysis of them in well, indeed . what's in the air? well, indeed. what's your analysis of where russia is now following prigozhins failed coup i mean , there were coup attempt? i mean, there were some interesting images of some interesting images out of the kremlin week the kremlin in the week featuring him in various disguises. idea of trying disguises. this idea of trying to him. is this bloke to humiliate him. is this bloke still alive ? what's what do we still alive? what's what do we think the thinking is around putin and his future at the

kremlin? >> well, he has he prigozhin has really reveal the sort of weakness of putin's position . he weakness of putin's position. he is dependent on these these psychotics like the people who run wagner group. if i was prigozhin, i'd stay away from balconies on high rise buildings and i'd certainly stick to water rather than tea. yes, but avoid any pointy umbrellas. yeah, but , you know, wagner group have taken a hell of a kicking because they've been put into the front line by the russian army who don't like them. putin is now, as a result of rogozin's actions, tried to absorb wagner group into the military as a sort of element of the state, not as a private military security company. and it can't be much fun in inverted commas for the russian soldiers to be looking left and right and seeing, you know , you couldn't seeing, you know, you couldn't be unaware of what's going on back in moscow or alongside you with wagner group. let alone the fact that you've got, you know, nato supplying ukrainians nato supplying the ukrainians who are proving be very who are proving to be very redoubtable opponents. >> well, let's talk about them . >> well, let's talk about them. i mean, does it strengthen

ukraine's position obviously ukraine's position as obviously talk fast talk about them being fast tracked would tracked into nato? would you agree that? or you think agree with that? or do you think that provoke the russians that might provoke the russians even i don't even further? well, i don't think is all about think given that it is all about defence of alliance. >> yes. and it is an attack on one is an attack on all. you know, we can have a debate on on on that it challenged. on that if it was challenged. but idea of bringing ukraine but the idea of bringing ukraine in while it's still in the middle of a shooting war with russia fanciful. and i hope middle of a shooting war with rusukrainians,ul. and i hope middle of a shooting war with rus ukrainians, whatever�*nope middle of a shooting war with rus ukrainians, whatever they're the ukrainians, whatever they're offered vilnius i think offered at vilnius and i think it be substantial. it will be very substantial. yeah, this a nato summit, the yeah, this is a nato summit, the nato next sorry nato summit next week. sorry don't view the fact that they're not going to fast tracked as not going to be fast tracked as a there will be a very, a loss. there will be a very, very strong rhetoric about commitment . there will be a huge commitment. there will be a huge package. commitment. there will be a huge package . i know within that is package. i know within that is this slightly controversial issue of cluster munitions . but issue of cluster munitions. but ukraine should be should go away very satisfied. and i hope they sell because it is sell that up. yes, because it is it would be inconceivable that nato would accept ukraine in in into nato at a time when they could then invoke article 5 in

defence and call nato's bluff. >> mindful of the fact we've just got a minute left. so simon, i'm going to ask you a big question, but how does this end? >> well, at the moment it ends in sort stalemate , which is in sort of stalemate, which is why it is so important that the ukrainians get in a really strong i mean, can strong position. i mean, can they reclaim some of this territory? if they can territory? i don't if they can reclaim it all unless there's a collapse in the russian frontline , if the the army frontline, if the if the army refused fight. and refused to fight. and historically, have been historically, there have been examples of that. not, we examples of that. if not, we need to put them in because i think putin are winning think putin are they winning this, russians losing ? this, the russians losing? >> it's quite hard to quantify how this might play out. it's very hard to quantify. >> it's very to quantify. >> it's very hard to quantify. do underestimate the do not underestimate the capacity the russians capacity for the russians for sacrifice depth russia sacrifice and the depth russia has still. it has the capacity to continue this war for a long time unless, as i say, the people don't the people in the front line refuse to fight and die they now view to die for what they now view to be. >> this playing out for >> we see this playing out for years . years. >> fl years. >> it potentially playing >> i see it potentially playing out for years the out for years hence the reluctance to provide cluster weapons at time when we're

weapons at a time when we're providing else would providing everything else would send just absolutely send would would just absolutely hamper the ability of the ukrainians to at least get an operation success that be operation success that could be turned into strategic political advantage. >> a final word on our own defences. obviously on defences. obviously we keep on having about defence having this row about defence spending, it's enough of spending, whether it's enough of gdp are adequately defended? gdp are we adequately defended? are enough on are we spending enough on defence? well i would argue not, and i think we are seeing the results of not spending that amount and thinking that numbers don't count because if you act small you think small, if you think small, you start to be treated small and we lose diplomatic and political leverage really investing leverage by not really investing in our armed forces, then using them imaginatively in those arena. simon lovely to speak arena. so. simon lovely to speak to you this morning. thank you for thank you, camilla. forjoining. thank you, camilla. well, anywhere well, don't go anywhere because in minute, be in just a minute, i'll be meeting the who's hoping to meeting the man who's hoping to become next mayor london. become the next mayor of london. but the weather. but first, here's the weather. >> feeling inside from >> that warm feeling inside from the boxed boilers. proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello there. i'm greg

dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. well, it's another day of sunshine and showers across the country today. some of them will be heavy at times and a little fresher for everyone looking at the bigger picture, low pressure still sits to the west of the uk, drawing in these showers and longer spells of rain over the next days. in fact, some of next few days. in fact, some of this will be heavy at times this rain will be heavy at times and turning quite persistent for some on monday for the rest of sunday, plenty of sunny spells, more the way of sunshine more in the way of sunshine compared though, compared to saturday, though, there will be some heavy showers. thundery across northern ireland, wales, the midlands down southwest midlands down into southwest england. there could be some england. so there could be some local disruption with a met office warning in force elsewhere temperatures elsewhere. drier temperatures generally in the low 20s, perhaps locally around 24 or 25 across southeast england this afternoon. those thundery showers continue to push north woods as we head through the evening. but then fade away by the end of the day and then overnight it's generally dry with clear spells across much of

the then towards the country. but then towards the country. but then towards the night, we'll just the end of the night, we'll just start to see a showers start to see a few showers pushing in from the southwest as that starts that low pressure system starts to edge nearer. temperatures generally around mid teens. generally around the mid teens. so still quite warm for the time of year. plenty of sunshine first thing monday morning, but the clouds gather from the southwest . areas of rain start southwest. areas of rain start to move in. so parts wales to move in. so parts of wales will see some heavy downpours developing elsewhere during the afternoon on monday. it's a case of sunny spells and scattered showers as temperatures similar once , generally reaching once more, generally reaching the for most perhaps the low 20s for most perhaps 2425 degrees across south—east england into the evening time on monday. further pulses of rain continue to push northwards. another area pushing into southwest england through towards the end of the day, which could be heavy at times. still, the odd rumble of thunder is possible, too. and going forward, further showers and longer spells of rain is in the forecast and temperatures around average . average. >> that warm feeling inside from

boxed boilers . proud sponsors of boxed boilers. proud sponsors of weather on . gb news now can the weather on. gb news now can the tories overthrow sadiq khan in london? >> in just a minute. i'm going to be speaking to mos hussein, the man whose hoping to become the man whose hoping to become the next mayor. don't go

news, britain's us news. channel >> welcome back to the camilla

tominey show. i'm joined in the studio by mozammel hossain kc. i always say qc. i'm still in old language. kc he's a criminal barrister and he's hoping to be the tory candidate for london mayor. it's going to be part of a series of interviews looking ahead to the 2024 london mayoral election week . we're hoping ahead to the 2024 london mayoral el> thank you for having me, camilla. to be here. camilla. it's great to be here. so left then home at the so i left my then home at the age 21, a wooden house. mark age of 21, a wooden house. mark tufnell low under a tin roof and a sobbing mother. yes to come to england . i didn't have shoes england. i didn't have shoes until i was 16. because you don't wear shoes in the village . all muddy tracks and so by 21

i was studying law in the uk in liverpool. >> wow. which is an achievement in itself to me because it's sort of, it's the way the family did it. >> my parents had very little to give us, so they gave us education. yes they taught us value of hard work. so the way they have it, the send the they have done it, the send the eldest child to university, the very first in the village to go to university , he sets up to university, he sets up a small business. then he pays for the second boy. then when he has a job, he looks after the younger ones? yes. then the other two brothers put money together to send the third boy together to send the third boy to come to england. so when you first to having not first came to the uk, having not worn shoes until you were 16 years old, must have been years old, it must have been a bit of a shock to the system. i was excited. i was so excited. i was excited. i was so excited. i was very cold when i came here. i could only imagine nobody told me this very cold in me that. this is very cold in england. in september. i england. yes in september. so i was freezing cold. >> you've a criminal >> and you've been a criminal barrister? yes, for many years. so this? leave this so why do this? why leave this lucrative career behind? to try and run to be london mayor? >> as say, camilla, boy

>> as you say, camilla, a boy from village bangladesh , was from village in bangladesh, was provided all the provided with all the opportunities by london, and i allowed him to reach to the top of the legal profession. look at london now. isn't safe . it is london now. isn't safe. it is unaffordable. and mr khan has let london down. and you may think opportunities suffocate in a city that isn't safe, that is unaffordable . so i want to give unaffordable. so i want to give back to the city that has given me everything. and also camilla, i think a boy forget about a boy from bangladesh, a boy from bromley or a girl from greenwich wouldn't same wouldn't have the same opportunities i have had. yes >> now i hear, having read the sunday telegraph this morning that you've got some key donors who are inaya getting a lot of cash into your campaign, nick, candy and others. we know he's not short a few bob. so have not short of a few bob. so have you amassed a multi—million pound war chest? >> people are excited. >> look, people are excited. people look, i have met many people. i've met many industry leaders. and business leaders . leaders. and business leaders. they're coming to me because

they say to me they do not want they say to me they do not want the city that is unsafe. they do not want a city where because nobody will come to a city, london is the greatest city. camilla. we all it is not political cliche on the planet. no city can compete with london as long as you get a few things right. safety? yes. if it's safe, if it's affordable for young people, talk to any young people now, camilla, they don't dream of owning homes anymore. they afford rent i >> -- >> but you're totally untried and untested . so these tory and untested. so these tory donors to you . why? donors are looking to you. why? why have you got a better chance of beating than, say, susan hall? >> i'm not tried and untested. i have been a criminal barrister and a qc for four years. kc now, yes. coming from a village in bangladesh if can be a king's bangladesh, if i can be a king's counsel, i'm not. >> but does that qualify you to be london mayor and run the capital? of course. that's the question. >> i mean, you know, often people say we are not a politician. i think that's not a vice. if anything, that's a good

thing. people are fed up with career politicians . yeah, i am career politicians. yeah, i am doing it because i genuinely care about changing lives. doing it because i genuinely care about changing lives . yes, care about changing lives. yes, london has given me everything i have.i london has given me everything i have. i want to give back what name your three flagship policies. >> what three things would you do if you do get the keys to city hall? >> number one, talk to anybody. camilla rich, poor men, women, they all say how unsafe they feel in london. yeah. >> more stop and search then . >> more stop and search then. yes. the solution is to increase intelligence based stop and search. >> we have to do that. we have to bring back trust in may to reform it, refocus their priorities . priorities. >> more police officers? >> more police officers? >> yes, of course. neighbourhood policing day and night, not only just their cars, they just sit in their cars, they must out on the street. must come out on the street. >> so you're an advocate for visible policing? >> definitely. why not? look, all these things worked. why not go to things that worked go back to things that worked before? when was the before? i mean, when was the last time you saw a police officer night? officer on foot at night? you never them. never see them. >> okay, so cut crime. cut crime. more visible policing, second then housing. second policy, and then housing. >> mentioned before, talk >> as i mentioned before, talk

to young de—man to talk to any young de—man to talk about crime or move on to housing. on to housing just housing. move on to housing just for housing. so for timing. housing. look so talk was out for dinner talk to i was out for dinner with friend and she's young. with a friend and she's young. she she's 22 and she just finished her saint martin's and she says, look, all her friends who wants to work in film industry or in animation architecture , she's a sculptor. architecture, she's a sculptor. they simply cannot afford to pay- >> so build more housing. how many more homes? >> so, look, there's enough brownite finland in london and box build. >> have you set a target ? >> have you set a target? >> have you set a target? >> i think i think, you know, target is just as long as you build more , build more build more, build more beautifully and affordable homes for people. think build as for people. i think build as much as you can i think hundreds of thousands beautiful homes of thousands of beautiful homes is . is my plan. >> okay. and third, policy and third be transport. third would be transport. >> yes, mr khan doesn't simply care about outer london because he can ignore them. i have been going round all parts of outer london, of london. and london, all of london. and despite all the flaws transport ininner despite all the flaws transport in inner london is pretty good. so you're saying sadiq khan

doesn't care about art, but talk to anybody in outer island? they will how awful the will say it's how awful the connectivity is in outer london. >> wants impose the >> well, he wants to impose the ulez outer london. >> cruel. it's the most cruel thing to do during the worst cost of living crisis. i give an example. i know politicians like talking about stories. me talking about stories. let me tell . two weeks ago, i was tell you. two weeks ago, i was in hillingdon talking to a young lady, lives in a council flat, a cleaner at a school , pays £350 a cleaner at a school, pays £350 a month for gas and electricity . month for gas and electricity. and she said, how on earth i'm going pay £12, 50 a month and going to pay £12, 50 a month and you're saying that khan's penalising the poor with these policies? mean, okay. i mean, policies? i mean, okay. i mean, it is a cruel thing to do during the worst cost of living crisis. >> camilla right. to finish. so we can get a measure of you. i'm going to you a few yes or no going to ask you a few yes or no questions. and the prerequisite here to be specific. here is i need to be specific. you're lawyer, you you're a lawyer, so you understand specifics. you have to or no. to answer yes or 110. >> to answer yes or no. >> i have to? >> do i have to? >> do i have to? >> yes, you do. okay. okay. first question. net zero by 2030. yes or no? first question. net zero by 2031t's’es or no? first question. net zero by 2031t's impossible . well, it's >> it's impossible. well, it's impossible. so you're saying .

impossible. so you're saying. >> no, no, no. >> look, it's a great ambition, but it's not going to happen. >> so would you support net zero by as ambition? by 2030 as an ambition? >> yes. >> yes. >> i think we should. >> i think we should. >> as an ambition >> yes or no as an ambition supported. but it won't happen. >> okay. should we ban diesels and in 2030? or no? and petrols in 2030? yes or no? again is so unrealistic. again this is so unrealistic. >> why ? >> why? >> why? >> that's what the suggestion is by government. do you agree by the government. do you agree with it? do you agree with banning diesel and petrol cars? yes no? i think if tory yes or no? i think if it's tory policy, it's i think it's policy, okay, it's i think it's a good ambition to have . so you a good ambition to have. so you do support that? i think it's a good ambition to have. all right. do you support the rwanda plan, yes or no ? plan, yes or no? >> look, we have find way. >> look, we have to find a way. i mean, prevaricating, i mean, you're prevaricating, but i can't give a no yes but i can't give a yes or no yes or no game. or [10 game. >> or no game. >> it's the yes or no game. i'm going to susan hall the same going to ask susan hall the same question. >> stop illegal immigration. >> stop illegal immigration. >> support your >> stop illegal immigration. >> yes support your >> stop illegal immigration. >> yes or support your >> stop illegal immigration. >> yes or no?)ort your rwanda, yes or no? >> look, we to find the >> look, we have to find the effective to stop this. do effective way to stop this. do you support rwanda? >> yes or no? >> my answer has to be, i'm afraid we have to find i afraid that we have to find i support the government. moss. >> have to answer yes

>> moss, you have to answer yes or no. you must know whether you support rwanda plan. support the rwanda plan. >> we to a way to stop >> we have to find a way to stop this rwanda gangs? >> so you do support rwanda? >> so you do support rwanda? >> it's you know, there's a legal process going on at the moment. >> i think it would be answer yes no questions, but it yes or no questions, but it would would be because would be. it would be because otherwise the electorate will just it'll wrong. just despair. it'll be wrong. this massive issue for this is a massive issue for londoners. are londoners. most of them are immigrants. yourself immigrants. we have yourself included. support included. yes. do you support rwanda? no? rwanda? yes or no? >> look, i support illegal do >> look, do i support illegal do i any measures to stop i support any measures to stop illegal yes illegal immigration? yes >> so you do support the rwanda plan. won't commit to it? >> there's a legal process. it could wrong. as a king's could be wrong. as a king's counsel, who different could be wrong. as a king's couns system. who different could be wrong. as a king's couns system. i who different could be wrong. as a king's counssystem. i think ho different could be wrong. as a king's counssystem. i think there'serent process. process. >> process. >> you voted remain. should we rejoin the eu, yes or no? >> mean, look, we have to we >> i mean, look, we have to we have to. we have to unlock the rejoin the eu. yes or no? that that question has been litigated on. move on. on. so we move on. >> a woman have a penis? >> does a woman have a penis? yes no? yes or no? >> i think all know women >> i think we all know women don't we? men don't know. >> yeah. you that. >> yeah. thank you for that. that's the labour that's better than the labour leader achieve a gay leader can achieve a gay marriage. or no? marriage. yes or no?

>> we gay marriage. yes >> we have gay marriage. yes >> we have gay marriage. yes >> support it? yes, of >> are you support it? yes, of course. should leave the course. should we leave the echr? yes or no? >> i think my answer is >> look, i think my answer is this. now have control this. look, we now have control over our laws and regulations means . it's a tricky means yes or no. it's a tricky one, afraid i can't. one, really. i'm afraid i can't. all right. >> and finally, were the tories wrong rid boris? yes wrong to get rid of boris? yes or no? look, camilla. >> yes, sir. i'm here to talk about london. he was a great, great mayor of london. i'm here to talk about all right. to talk about that. all right. not about westminster politics. >> enough. moss hussain, >> fair enough. moss hussain, good luck. thank you. in the in the race. thank you very much. very lovely see you speaking very lovely to see you speaking to thank you for having me. to us. thank you for having me. stay where you are. don't go anywhere. stay here. stay here now. go. you don't you now. and don't go. you don't you don't go anywhere. he's not going don't go going anywhere. you don't go anywhere after anywhere either. because after the week celebrated the nhs, this week celebrated its birthday, we've its 75th birthday, we've got a generation just after generation gap debate just after the about whether should the news about whether we should see more

the people's channel. >> britain's news . >> britain's news. channel >> britain's news. channel >> welcome back. now it's time for our generation gap. the part of the show where people from different generations debate tot political topics. this week after the nhs celebrated its 75th birthday. we're asking should we see fundamental reform to the uk's health care system? and should privatisation be playing a bigger role? fatima kamara, registered nurse and now a senior management executive in the nhs, joins me along with oh, and she's also sorry, along with labour councillor in runnymede and elmbridge borough council . and elmbridge borough council. len shackleton no , i've got that

len shackleton no, i've got that wrong. sorry, this is can i blame the person who's written the autocue for this? fatima, you're the labour councillor in runnymede and elmbridge borough council. len, you're a fellow at the free market think tank , the the free market think tank, the ieo, the free market think tank, the ie0, and you're also a professor. you economics iea and a professor of economics at the university of buckingham. this has all gone well. i'm throwing that away . i'm several that away. i'm firing several people script , people that write the script, and we're getting into this debate fatima let's start debate now. fatima let's start with we've heard tony blair with you. we've heard tony blair talk of talk about privatisation of the nhs , the idea wealthier nhs, the idea of wealthier people jumping the queue. why don't we just charge for appointments, find people who are late or don't turn up and make more money for the nhs to be better? >> thank you, camilla, for having me this thank having me this morning. thank you inviting me . i think you for inviting me. i think certainly don't agree with the certainly i don't agree with the point of privatisation , point of privatisation, privatisation for the nhs just a little bit. i know i think definitely how the nhs was set up in 1945. it's moved on quite

a lot in leaps and bounds, but privatisation we can see just an example from the us health care system where it has quite a lot of challenges and in that as well the nhs was set up as free at the point of use . at the point of use. >> i know, but len, come into this debate because i get exactly what you're saying. nobody wants to compromise or indeed sacrifice that initial, very noble aim of the nhs, but it's become bloated beyond all recognition from a managerial perspective , and patients aren't perspective, and patients aren't being adequately served, even though there's been record investment in the nhs. i know we can have an argument about whether it's linked to inflation or not, but more money's being poured in. len what's the solution here? >> it does indeed. of >> it does indeed. loads of money poured in and money has been poured in and we're spending as much as a we're now spending as much as a proportion of gdp as any of proportion of our gdp as any of our of competitors in our sort of competitors in europe on. and yet the europe and so on. and yet the results are not very good . you results are not very good. you know, we've dropped down the league tables in terms of, you know , things like cancer , heart

know, things like cancer, heart attacks and so forth , and the attacks and so forth, and the system is actually i mean, one of the things that bothers me about the system, camilla, is that it's a national illness service. yeah, you go to the doctor when there's something wrong with you, you don't get screened on a regular basis. you don't get health checks on a regular basis, bringing in more health regular basis, bringing in more heathey announced a couple >> they announced that a couple of steve barclay of weeks ago. steve barclay fatima , surely if you're pro nhs fatima, surely if you're pro nhs and you're pro patient is being more responsible to it, why would you be against, for instance , fining people who instance, fining people who waste your time and the time of fellow clinicians is i think what i would say is definitely based on the point that len has actually said . actually said. >> there's definitely a point for reviewing and looking at reforming somehow the nhs. but that doesn't mean that rightfully, as we've said , a lot rightfully, as we've said, a lot of money has gone into it doesn't mean that, you know, pumping a lot more money into it can can save what's happening if we need reform. >> how about a royal commission?

sajid javid the former health secretary, suggested that last week. have a royal week. should we have a royal commission it commission look at this, take it out politics and just have an out of politics and just have an independent body, make changes to nhs make it better. to the nhs to make it better. yes no? fatima think you yes or no? fatima i think you have to give people, the citizens, you to them citizens, you have to give them the to, to look at the right to, to look at what sort of services want sort of services they want locally them that power locally and give them that power back they need. back that they need. >> and also we have to also realise we're not talking realise that we're not talking in about nhs. in isolation about the nhs. there's social that there's also social care that needs to sorted out. needs to be sorted out. >> response to fatima quickly on the, the, on the royal the, on the, on the royal commission idea, i think that's probably a good idea. >> but royal commissions take forever must given forever and it must be given a very tight brief and a very tight period in which to report . we need to get the nhs changed within the next year or two. really we don't want to thing dragging forever, into dragging on forever, kicked into the grass once again. the long grass once again. >> i'm afraid we've run out >> now i'm afraid we've run out of because this show has of time because this show has just of those shows and just been one of those shows and we're going to be speaking to you lots of people next week at 930 as ever. and we've now got

angela rippon coming up, who's going to be covering michael portillo's she's portillo's show. i know she's got great guests on, got some great guests on, including owen and others. including lord owen and others. so for that. and so do stay tuned for that. and we'll back next week at 9.30 we'll be back next week at 9.30 the temperature's rising . the temperature's rising. >> boxed solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello there i'm greg dewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. well, it's another day of sunshine and showers across the country today. some of them will be heavy at times and a little fresher for everyone. looking at the bigger picture , low pressure the bigger picture, low pressure still sits to the west of the uk , drawing in these showers and longer spells of rain over the next few days. in fact, some of this rain will heavy at times this rain will be heavy at times and persistent for and turning quite persistent for some monday . and turning quite persistent for some monday. for and turning quite persistent for some monday . for the rest of some on monday. for the rest of sunday, plenty of sunny spells, more in the way of sunshine compared to saturday, though there will heavy there will be some heavy showers. thundery across northern ireland, wales, the midlands down into southwest england. there could be some england. so there could be some

local disruption with a met office in force office warning in force elsewhere . drier temperatures elsewhere. drier temperatures generally the low 20s, generally in the low 20s, perhaps locally around 24 or 25 across southeast england this afternoon. those thundery showers continue to push northwards as we head through the evening , northwards as we head through the evening, but northwards as we head through the evening , but then fade away the evening, but then fade away by the end of the day and then overnight it's generally dry with clear spells across much of the country. but then towards the country. but then towards the end of the night, we just start see a few showers start to see a few showers pushing in from southwest as pushing in from the southwest as that system starts that low pressure system starts to edge nearer. temperatures generally around the mid teens. so still quite warm for the time of year . plenty of so still quite warm for the time of year. plenty of sunshine. first thing monday morning, but the clouds gather the the clouds gather from the southwest areas of rain start to move in. so parts of wales will see heavy downpours see some heavy downpours developing elsewhere during the afternoon on monday. it's a case of spells and scattered of sunny spells and scattered showers. are showers. temperatures are similar once more generally reaching the low 20s for most, perhaps 2425 degrees across south east england into the evening time on monday. further

pulses of rain continue to push northwards. another area pushing into southwest england through towards the end of the day, which could be heavy at times. still the odd rumble of thunder is possible too. and going forward, further showers and longer spells of rain is in the forecast and temperatures around average . the temperatures rising i >> -- >>a -- >> a boxed solar proud sponsors of weather on .