warning in just a moment, i'm going to be speaking to immigration minister robert jenrick about the small boats crisis and then former chancellor kwasi kwarteng will crisis and then former ch'joining kwasi kwarteng will crisis and then former ch'joining measi kwarteng will crisis and then former ch'joining me in kwarteng will crisis and then former ch'joining me in kw¢studio.vill crisis and then former ch'joining me in kw¢studio. did be joining me in the studio. did his mini—budget play a part in the uk's highest interest rate in 15 years? stay tuned for that. and also, i'll be speaking to john redwood, who's margaret thatcher's former policy adviser . and i'm going to be having stephen timms down the line with me talk about what blair me to talk about what blair would do about the economy and whether any whether labour's ideas are any good. so let's first of all just good. so let's first of all just go through the front pages of the newspapers . let's have the newspapers. let's have a look at this first one in the sunday telegraph . china will use sunday telegraph. china will use electricity , electric cars to

electricity, electric cars to spy electricity, electric cars to spy on britain. that's the first one.the spy on britain. that's the first one. the sunday times iranian state now bigger threat to uk. that's from a suella braverman who's saying that iran now is posing a threat to us from a terror point of view. the observer appalling state of warehouse jails revealed in shock data. that's an expose that the paper has done about jails and that they're not really fit for purpose. the mail on sunday this weekend goes with fat cats. cats cash in. no cost of living squeeze. so that's about all of the big bosses of the energy firms making far too much money from us. sabotage says the sunday express. and they're carrying that interview with suella braverman. she's given it to the mail on sunday, but the sunday express are picking up on the fact that she's blaming labour and labour cronies for the lawyers who are stopping the boats at the moment and not allowing the government to get with their rwanda to get on with their rwanda plans . and then we've got here

plans. and then we've got here harry deal to film £3 million book. that does sound like a story about him bringing out another autobiography. i can reassure that reassure you it's not that apparently meghan are apparently. harry and meghan are going a romance novel going to bring a romance novel to on film and then we've to life on film and then we've got in the sunday mirrorjamie got in the sunday mirror jamie act now on free school meals. he's saying that children should have free school meals out of term time because if they're not poor enough, they need help in term time. then they also need it on the holidays, it when they're on the holidays, basically. i'm delighted to basically. now i'm delighted to bnng basically. now i'm delighted to bring reviewer bring in my paper reviewer extraordinaire, fellow gb extraordinaire, my fellow gb news presenter nigel nelson . news presenter nigel nelson. nigel, lovely to see you this morning . let's talk about this morning. let's talk about this suella interview. she's in the mail on sunday everyone else has picked up on it across the whole of the newspapers. basically and she's a go at labour. she's having a go at labour. she's accusing labour of sabotaging the government's stop the boats what do you make the boats plan. what do you make of that, nigel? >> think it's a way of >> i think it's a way of actually shifting blame for her own failures . mean, you own failures. i mean, when you actually delve into the sort of small print there , it doesn't small print there, it doesn't really stand up scrutiny .

really stand up to scrutiny. they particularly focus in on a lawyer who is who works for labour and also works for another organisation trying to stop the stop the rwanda plan going ahead . but this particular going ahead. but this particular lawyer spends 90% of her time on a panel with priti patel on windrush . windrush. >> so caroline age, you've got to admit that there are people on the left that support these lawyers who are effectively trying to make any claim to come and live in the uk and asylum claim and it's not always the case. we have that mail expose of those lawyers basically saying, oh well if you want to claim asylum, you've got to pretend persecuted by that pretend to be persecuted by that person. back story person. oh, your back story doesn't stand up. tell these lies, then you'll be able to get in. a point, hasn't in. she's got a point, hasn't she? you were secretary, she? if you were home secretary, you'd by these you'd be so frustrated by these people the system. people gaming the system. >> i mean, if you've >> yeah. i mean, if. if you've got lawyers cheating, if you've >> yeah. i mean, if. if you've got lawyers telling g, if you've >> yeah. i mean, if. if you've got lawyers telling lies, you've >> yeah. i mean, if. if you've got lawyers telling lies, which it seems to be, what is happening in that particular case, i think suella braverman is absolutely right that it first of all, they should be struck off and secondly, if

they've a criminal they've committed a criminal offence, be jailed, offence, they should be jailed, which she's this which is what she's saying this morning. think you need to morning. so i think you need to park those people. i mean, this is actually crooked behaviour here who here from people who legitimately challenging government immigration policy, which is not working. >> but isn't it right for her to suggest that in stopping that jamaica flight from taking off, actually keir starmer did conspire in keeping a rapist and murderer in the country to go off and commit more crimes? well i mean, if you if you start with flights like that, the there are an awful lot of questions there about whether or not those are a good idea. >> do you, for instance, deport people who have been in this country since they were children , when they've grown up here? i mean , there were a lot of mean, there were a lot of questions to answer. i'm not saying that that is right. that if you're a foreign criminal, most people listening and watching this will go, yeah, can you yeah, mean mean, watching this will go, yeah, can ythink yeah, mean mean, watching this will go, yeah, can ythink that yeah, mean mean, watching this will go, yeah, can ythink that the h, mean mean, watching this will go, yeah, can ythink that the generaln mean, i think that the general principle should that foreign principle should be that foreign criminals should home. and criminals should go home. and just because they're going to jamaica, racist . if

jamaica, it's not racist. if they round up a plane load they could round up a plane load of white australians , they'd be of white australians, they'd be sent back too. >> yeah. okay fair enough. look, we've got the suella which we've got the suella rule, which is front pages, is dominating the front pages, and course, we've got and then, of course, we've got more of net i'm more talk of net zero. i'm calling it net zero to net zero because everyone's now abandoning quest for net abandoning their quest for net zero 2050. it seems me as zero by 2050. it seems to me as if is in a confused if starmer is in a confused place. sunak is very much now saying, okay, let's put the brakes on this. interestingly, echoing people , priti echoing of all people, priti patel on my show last week who said, a pause this. said, let's put a pause on this. it's making poor poorer. do it's making the poor poorer. do you with analysis, you agree with that analysis, nigel no. >> i think happened is >> what i think has happened is they've wobbly after they've all gone wobbly after uxbridge. uxbridge uxbridge. that suddenly uxbridge comes along. bad byelection result weird byelection result a weird byelection result. and they also this whole net zero thing is a bit dodgy, perhaps we ought to bring our targets back. so what is interesting is you've got therese coffey now saying , hey, therese coffey now saying, hey, look, please, guys, hold your nerve because this is really important . important. >> yeah, this is interesting from theresa. i mean, we know that she'd come from that position, because she's position, right? because she's

environment she environment secretary and she needs the side of the needs to be on the side of the greens in many respects . but greens in many respects. but then got polling in then we've got some polling in then we've got some polling in the that suggests the sunday express that suggests that the that at least from the electorate's of view, electorate's point of view, they're not happy with this, they're not happy with this, they're happy to told they're not happy to be told that to pay thousands that they need to pay thousands to petrol and diesels to replace petrol and diesels with to replace with electric, to replace boilers so boilers with heat pumps. so the pubuc boilers with heat pumps. so the public like net zero by public doesn't like net zero by 2050. well, well , apparently 2050. well, well, apparently they do. >> this is what's so weird about the public at the moment. so, for instance, if you look at the most polling, the four top issues that concern voters are cost of living comes number one, nhs number two, you immigration, number three, and then climate change. so they do want something done about it. trouble is what they don't want is if that's something that has to be done, is a pile on outside their front door or suddenly they're paying front door or suddenly they're paying the cost of ulez for instance . and that's where the instance. and that's where the problem lies. i think that we need now to convince people it will cost us all if we really believe in net zero, if we

believe in net zero, if we believe in net zero, if we believe in climate change, we need to do something about it pretty much. >> now what do you let's be more acceptable to people if it was, say, a fiver, i mean, the other suspicion around it is sadiq khan's policy is to plug an enormous black hole in his own finances that that's the finances and that that's the only why happening. only reason why it's happening. you at ltns low traffic you look at ltns low traffic uns you look at ltns low traffic ltns low traffic neighbourhoods had martin townsend on here doing the papers last week. he was talking about two cameras in chiswick had made the chiswick that had made the council million. so people council 13 million. so people are sceptical about what are also sceptical about what are also sceptical about what are motivations . is it about are the motivations. is it about air quality is it about air quality or is it about filling khan's coffers? filling sadiq khan's coffers? >> i think way that >> and i think the way that sadiq khan have sadiq khan should have approached say, start at approached it was say, start at 250 gradually build up to 250 and gradually build up to that £12, 5050 cost. a lot of it's a lot of money. i mean the and the other thing at the moment is that he needs to extend his scrappage scheme and he needs to pay for it outside london. it is not fair on a nurse who lives in, say, kent or essex who works in a london hospital having to then pay and

probably , by the way, being probably, by the way, being paying probably, by the way, being paying for parking when she's at the hospital. >> we all know about that parking charges and she won't be able to get a scrappage scheme at the moment. >> these this makes no sense. >> so these this makes no sense. >> so these this makes no sense. >> it's the same for >> and it's the same for electricians and plumbers. i mean, apparently being mean, apparently they're being offered up to and a half offered up to nine and a half grand change vans. but grand to change vans. but they're coping they're probably already coping with customers, but only they're probably already coping with live customers, but only they're probably already coping with live in;tomers, but only they're probably already coping with live in london. but only if they live in london. >> whole point is that it's >> the whole point is that it's the it's people who border the it's the people who border onto counties who never onto other counties who never voted for london mayor voted vote for the london mayor or policy, who being or this policy, who are being hit it. or this policy, who are being hit people outside that scrappage >> people outside that scrappage needs extended to them. needs to be extended to them. i think that's also angela rayner's regard to rayner's argument with regard to unaffordability. rayner's argument with regard to unwhatiability. rayner's argument with regard to unwhat i'm ity. rayner's argument with regard to unwhat i'm describing as trans to what i'm describing as trans hocus tell me about hocus pocus. tell me about what's now j.k. what's happened now to j.k. rowling . rowling. >> em- rowling. >> been cancelled >> well, she's been cancelled again , and this time it's by the again, and this time it's by the museum of pop culture in seattle. right. and they've got a harry potter exhibition . but a harry potter exhibition. but what they've done is they've removed made any reference to j.k. rowling from it. now, goodness knows how you tell the

story of harry potter without its creator , jo rowling . and i'm its creator, jo rowling. and i'm always against this . look, i always against this. look, i don't agree with with johanna rowling about the whole trans issue.i rowling about the whole trans issue. i think she's wrong, but she's wrong that biological sex is immutable. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. okay. >> yes. okay. >> are you in the women can have a penis camp, then? yes i am. >> and that bear in mind is the legal and official position in this country . this country. >> okay. i mean, i'm in the jk rowling camp. okay. but at the same time, i agree with you. the telegraph have done this story and actually they've done a lot of work generally on kind of airbrushing changing of work generally on kind of airbrudahl changing of work generally on kind of airbrudahl retrospectively. g of work generally on kind of airbrudahl retrospectively. you of work generally on kind of airberrite retrospectively. you of work generally on kind of airberrite jktrospectively. you of work generally on kind of airberrite jk rowling vely. you of work generally on kind of airberrite jk rowling out you of work generally on kind of airberrite jk rowling out of>u can't write jk rowling out of her own books. >> no, that's right. and so she's she is an integral part of the harry potter story. you kind of a museum museum exhibition . of a museum museum exhibition. and doesn't include her, and that doesn't include her, but then she should not be cancelled. wherever she is that she's perfectly entitled to her views . views. >> can we just stop cancelling people just people to people and just allow people to disagree, free speech? disagree, agree free speech? i

mean, know, that's only what mean, you know, that's only what this entire channel all this entire channel is all about. exactly. only the about. exactly. but if only the rest of the world would listen. yeah, i like that you've pointed out photo day in the out photo of the day is in the mail on sunday tell me about this from 2022 school scorched earth green and earth to 2023. green and pleasant this this is a number >> yeah this is this is a number of pictures around place to of pictures around the place to see actually happened see what is actually happened between oh there is there. between on oh there it is there. >> you've got that picture of >> so you've got that picture of that it's complete that fountain and it's complete scorched year. and then that fountain and it's complete scorchit's year. and then that fountain and it's complete scorchit's lovelyar. and then that fountain and it's complete scorchit's lovely in and then that fountain and it's complete scorchit's lovely in green1en today it's lovely in green because we've had so much rain. exactly >> and this is the kind of summer that we're having at the moment. >> but then you were in rhodes, so you've experienced scorched earth that we escaped rhodes so you've experienced scorched eartiminutes escaped rhodes so you've experienced scorched eartiminutes to .caped rhodes so you've experienced scorched eartiminutes to spare rhodes so you've experienced scorched eartiminutes to spare before s so you've experienced scorched eartiminutes to spare before the with minutes to spare before the they the roads as the they closed the roads as the fires were coming towards us. >> and the temperatures were really hot. i mean, you could forgive people for thinking, well, not really well, we're not really experiencing temperatures here. >> no, no, we're not. is it right to say that we're all boiling alive? >> well, i think so. if you look at look at the this is a global thing for records have been broken year . thing for records have been broken year. so we've had broken this year. so we've had the hottest june on record .

the hottest june on record. we've had the hottest day on record. we've got sea ice in the antarctic melting at record levels. >> and the oceans apparently hotter than they've ever been. >> and the oceans they've ever been. so at the moment, you know, suddenly climate change, which seemed a long way off, is now on our doorstep and urgent and okay, we're not seeing it this summer , but later on in this summer, but later on in august , who knows? who knows? august, who knows? who knows? >> thank you very much, nigel nelson, for joining >> thank you very much, nigel nelson, forjoining me >> thank you very much, nigel nelson, for joining me this morning. to to you. morning. lovely to speak to you. now, olivia utley is by the seaside. bournemouth . seaside. she's in bournemouth. olivia i've got robert jenrick coming on. going to be coming on. i'm going to be speaking kwasi kwarteng. i've speaking to kwasi kwarteng. i've got got got john redwood, i've got stephen timms, who used to be blair's chief secretary to the treasury. let me know, please , treasury. let me know, please, what your panel have what questions your panel have got for today's guests . got for today's guests. >> ? yes, we are here in >> hello? yes, we are here in lovely sunny bournemouth this morning and we've got a fantastic people's panel who've been researching your guests and have got some really very searching questions that i think you'll want ask them. we're

you'll want to ask them. we're in the naked cafe today near the beach in bournemouth, and this is the manager, lina. lina thank you so, so much for having us here we're really, really here today. we're really, really grateful and are you finding grateful and how are you finding businesses for at businesses going for you at the moment? >> pretty well. we >> it's going pretty well. we have a lot of students at the moment bournemouth area, moment in bournemouth area, which lot of them which means that a lot of them are coming into our place with very most of our demographics is students, young professionals. so we're doing pretty well. yes, at the moment. that's really good to hear and can tell that good to hear and i can tell that we're bustling already very early sunday morning. early on a sunday morning. >> there any other >> and are there any other problems your business is problems that your business is experiencing that perhaps the government out government could could help out with ? with? >> probably the only >> so most probably the only thing most the small thing like most of the small businesses have seen enormous businesses we have seen enormous increase in our price for the products . we haven't put our products. we haven't put our pricing up because we want to make sure that we still have the same regular customers . you same regular customers. you know, people are looked after so our profit margins have dropped, which means that we need to work so much harder. we need to have more footfall to stay

profitable. so yeah , that's the profitable. so yeah, that's the only thing i would say. our biggest challenge at the moment. >> you very much. think >> thank you very much. i think that's big problem for lots of that's a big problem for lots of small businesses with the inflation at moment, inflation crisis at the moment, very know how to handle very hard to know how to handle it. so much for it. but thank you so much for having us today it's having us here today and it's really good hear that really good to hear that business is going well. and here is our fan people's panel is our fan tastic people's panel this we have got dave this morning. we have got dave and steve. steve, i'm and we've got steve. steve, i'm going start with you because going to start with you because i got some really i know you've got some really good camilla's good questions for camilla's guests morning. guests this morning. what are they ? they? >> well, the first question is the government five the government have got five priorities. i've got a housing background. everybody seems to accept that there's a housing crisis , but housing is not on crisis, but housing is not on their five priority list. interest rates are going up all the people on variable mortgages are going to have their payments go are going to have their payments 9° up are going to have their payments go up . private renters are go up. private renters are already seeing extremely high rents and they're going to go up even more. when are all these people going to see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel with coming and that with things coming down and that light being yet another light not being yet another

oncoming train? >> very much. i think >> thank you very much. i think there'll be lots of people with mortgages who feeling mortgages who will be feeling exactly and asking exactly the same and asking similar to themselves similar questions to themselves . and dave, what about you ? what . and dave, what about you? what are your questions for camilla's politician today? >> so i got three questions for three of the politician ones. the first one to stephen timms would be in light of what happened at the prime minister's residence last week , in which residence last week, in which greenpeace greenpeace activists stormed his home and as soon as that happened, the environmental secretary ordered her department to shun all ties with greenpeace . so i would ask stephen timms from the labour party whether he would do the same forjust from the labour party whether he would do the same for just stop oil bearing in mind that a entrepreneur called del vince has donated £1.5 million to the labour party but also donates money to just stop oil. so there's an alignment for the labour party. there so i'd like to see what he says. my second question would to be robert jenrick. obviously on immigration so like to ask

immigration. so i'd like to ask him why he's maintaining government pull factors which is fuelling the immigration problem . and people come across the channel and even on the uk. gov website, there's a shopping list of items and benefits that immigrants would be entitled to. so i believe that's a big pull factor and my final question to kwasi kwarteng would be when he issued his mini—budget, it was shunned by the bank of england and it spooked the money markets. so i would ask kwasi kwarteng if he believes that the bank of england, due to their 2 or 3 most recent forecasts, inaccurate his whether he believes the bank of england should still remain independent. >> thank you very much. both of you. those really excellent questions which i'm sure camilla will be asking politic will be asking our politic persons on the show later. we'll be watching with a hawkeye back here bournemouth to what here in bournemouth to see what they have say. but for now, they have to say. but for now, back over to in the studio .

back over to you in the studio. >> now, next week , go to >> now, next week, go to gbnews.com forward slash panel. let's bring in one of our guests now because i'm delighted to be joined by the labour mp for east ham. since 1994, former chief secretary to the treasury under tony blair, sir stephen timms joins . lovely to see you this joins me. lovely to see you this morning, stephen. let's get straight into the some of the debates in today's paper about immigration suella braverman the home secretary basically accused keir starmer of conspiring with those trying to stop the government from stopping illegal immigration and making a reference to that flight that he campaigned to not take off that jamaica flight. campaigned to not take off that jamaica flight . one of the jamaica flight. one of the people on the flight went to on commit a crime against somebody in the uk is keir starmer facilitates the retention of rapists and murderers in this country . country. >> no , i mean, suella braverman >> no, i mean, suella braverman is right that her plans aren't working, but that's because they were very bad plans. >> they've been badly thought through . they conflict with the

through. they conflict with the law in various respects and therefore they're not working. i mean, it's understandable that she's trying to find someone else to blame, but the responsibility fact, responsibility is, in fact, entirely responsibility is, in fact, ent but isn't the labour party on >> but isn't the labour party on the side of those lawyers as braverman suggests, we've got a labour councillor who is somebody campaigned as to somebody that campaigned as to try keep the try and keep people in the country who perhaps have try and keep people in the cou rightvho perhaps have try and keep people in the cou rightvhoclaim |ps have try and keep people in the cou rightvhoclaim asylum have try and keep people in the cou rightvhoclaim asylum here.�* the right to claim asylum here. so is it labour on the side of those so—called lefty lawyers that to thwart the that are trying to thwart the government's ? government's plans? >> is entirely obe. the >> no, this is entirely obe. the home secretary tried to find someone else to blame for her own failures. she needs to take responsibility, but she's right. her policies are not working . her policies are not working. she needs to fix the policies, not just blame somebody else . not just blame somebody else. >> and what's labour's solution then? because presumably, if you think that it's wrong that suella braverman's plans are being thwarted by anyone , that being thwarted by anyone, that by consequence means that you're quite happy to have quite robust policies the boats, to policies to stop the boats, to stop people claiming asylum here that deserve to claim that don't deserve to claim asylum . asylum. >> yeah, we do need to stop the

boats. that's absolutely right . boats. that's absolutely right. and the government needs to come up with that will up with a plan that will succeed. unlike the plans they've in place. so far, they've put in place. so far, which which are not working. which are which are not working. but how would you deter people? >> sir stephen is now accepting we need to do that by having a better relationship with france in particular. >> and negotiate proper restrictions and controls at the french end. we also do need to make sure , though, that it is make sure, though, that it is legally possible for people who are entitled to claim asylum in the uk to come here other than coming by a boat across the channel. at the moment there's no legal means for them to do it. so for example, if there's a child perhaps from from africa who's in france , who is legally who's in france, who is legally entitled to come and join their sibling , their brother or their sibling, their brother or their sister, who's got asylum status in the uk , there's no way for in the uk, there's no way for them to do that. they need to be some routes . the government has some routes. the government has said they will introduce some

legal routes. they haven't done that yet. until there are, people are going to carry on desperately trying to get across the channel in these terrible small boats that needs to be fixed and there may be an argument that we've paid millions to the french and indeed that there are already legal routes play. legal routes in play. >> but let's move to on net zero now because that's also a theme of today's newspapers . one of my of today's newspapers. one of my panellists people's panellists on the people's panel there you about there wanted me to ask you about just we've seen just stop oil we've seen greenpeace scaling the prime minister's home in richmond in the got just the north. we've got just stop oil to oil now threatening to completely disrupt all of the football fixtures just about starting in the premier league this this weekend. surely now it's this this weekend. surely now wsfime this this weekend. surely now it's time for labour to break ties with just stop oil to not take delvin's money because these people are wreaking havoc and bringing misery to thousands of sports fans as well . of sports fans as well. >> i think it is pretty extraordinary that greenpeace was able to walk into the prime minister's home and scale the roof. that was a very serious

security lapse that should not have happened . but greenpeace have happened. but greenpeace does have a point in the arguments that it's making. i do not support the tactics of just stop oil, but they also have a point in the case that they are arguing and the prime minister's announcement that we're just to going have an extra 100 licences for more , more oil and gas for more, more oil and gas prospecting in the north sea is the wrong decision. we do need with the rest of the world to tackle the climate crisis and what he's done is going absolutely in the wrong direction and giving up what has until now been quite an impressive uk lead on this area. from the cop conference in glasgow and so on. rishi sunak i think in a sort of measure of panic seems to have thrown all that away , say in the hope that that away, say in the hope that he can get a few votes by going in the opposite direction . in the opposite direction. >> but you were the chief secretary to the treasury under tony blair. i'm wondering whether you think it is a good

idea for shadow chancellor rachel reeves to announce £28 billion in spending on a green prosperity pledge? when we found out this week that household debtis out this week that household debt is at 2 trillion, it's £71,000 per household. so surely be a next labour government if that's going to happen, is going to be spending money cashing checks that it simply can't afford . afford. >> well, that's what we saw with the kwasi kwarteng budget, which i'm sure you're going to ask kwasi about in a minute when he announced indeed, huge tax cuts and means to pay for them. and no means to pay for them. but actually rachel but i think actually rachel reeves has been absolutely right throughout this debate . throughout all of this debate. and in particular, she's right to insist that everything a labour government will do has to be built on the rock of fiscal responsibility. well, 28 billion spending a year isn't fiscally responsible, is it ? it responsible, is it? it definitely is . is it is highly definitely is. is it is highly fiscally responsible. of course, the government will continue to

invest and that's always happens and needs to happen. and at the moment , we do and needs to happen. and at the moment, we do have to rebuild the economy after this terrible stagnant lack of growth that we're in at the moment. so we've got to invest. we've got to rebuild the british economy. but it's got to be on the basis of fiscal responsibility. and that is the watchword of everything that rachel reeves has been saying over the last couple of years. and i very much agree with that. >> why did she have to water down the plans then? she looked at and then she at the plans and then she realised that she couldn't afford them. so not afford them. so that's not fiscally responsible. that's fiscally illiterate, isn't it? >> fiscally >> no, that is fiscally responsible. that's she said responsible. that's why she said it's got to be phased in, in a fiscally responsible way. and she's absolutely right to do that. >> mr timms, if you don't mind me asking, just because it might still be on the public's conscience, obviously you conscience, that obviously you had terrible thing had this terrible thing happen to you in 2010 where you were stabbed of your stabbed by one of your constituents, arana constituents, russia and arana chowdhury . she's in prison now, chowdhury. she's in prison now, and i just was researching this

interview and i thought it was really interesting from your perspective as a christian that you to reach out to her. you wanted to reach out to her. and she obviously killed and she obviously nearly killed you, said that you you, but you said that you wanted to meet her in prison and perhaps case. did perhaps discuss the case. did you contact with her you ever make contact with her personally ? we uh. personally? we uh. >> well, i have been in a restorative justice process. unfortunately it seems to have stalled . i don't know why he's stalled. i don't know why he's got stuck in in red tape somewhere. and it didn't seem to be moving forward at the moment . but i'm still hoping that somebody in the ministry of justice might find me, you know, get things moving. and it might be possible, but it hasn't been yet. >> so explain that to me, mr timms. you've wanted to reach out to this prisoner and and out to this prisoner and try and have with to her have a conversation with to her try some closure. but try and get some closure. but the moj have stood in the way. would you be willing go and would you be willing to go and see in prison then? see her in prison then? >> yeah , we've been talking >> yeah, we've been talking about and i understood that about that and i understood that things were moving in that direction. >> but it's still stalled for reasons that i don't understand

. she actually wrote to me. she she three letters. so she sent me three letters. so that was sort of how this began. and i'm very happy to go into a process which i thought was going to lead to the possibility of a meeting . but but it hasn't. of a meeting. but but it hasn't. and i'm not sure what's happening now. >> have you been able to forgive her? >> well, i think if i met her, that may well be possible. but without some sort of communication action, i don't think that would really mean anything. >> okay . so stephen timms, thank >> okay. so stephen timms, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. you very much indeed for joining me this morning . lots more to me this morning. lots more to come on today's show . me this morning. lots more to come on today's show. in just a minute, i'll be speaking to the immigration minister, robert jenrick. will the jenrick. when will the government take back control of our want our borders? i know you'll want to plans to stop the to hear his plans to stop the boats and manage the asylum seeker crisis. we'll have all that to come after the that and more to come after the weather . weather. >> the temperature's rising . >> the temperature's rising. boxt solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> good morning . my name

weather on. gb news. >> good morning. my name is rachel ayers and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast brought to you by the met office. well today will be a more of a day of sunshine and showers with lighter winds around what we saw around than what we saw yesterday . yesterday's yesterday. yesterday's storm, anthony already moving away anthony is already moving away to the southeast but could still bnng to the southeast but could still bring some and blustery bring some cloud. and blustery conditions of east conditions to parts of east anglia this morning. anglia through this morning. elsewhere, see cloud and elsewhere, we'll see cloud and showers soon bubbling up. and these could be heavy in a few places across scotland and northern england and with a chance of the odd thunderstorm across northern ireland, we're feeling pleasant today feeling much more pleasant today as compared to yesterday , as well compared to yesterday, with temperatures just with those temperatures just creeping the 20s in the creeping into the low 20s in the south. now, as we go through the rest of this afternoon and into the evening , rest of this afternoon and into the evening, we'll rest of this afternoon and into the evening , we'll see those the evening, we'll see those showers starting to ease, becoming more confined to northern areas and plenty of clear spells around now with clear spells around now with clear spells around now with clear spells and lighter winds . clear spells and lighter winds. we'll see those temperatures dropping just a little bit more readily so townsend readily tonight. so townsend cities generally clinging on to those double figures, but more widely seeing temperatures into

the single figures rural the mid single figures in rural areas. will mean it'll be areas. this will mean it'll be a bright but chilly start to the new week. plenty of sunshine around there could still be the odd shower developing heaviest across northern and eastern parts of scotland . but with parts of scotland. but with those light winds and that sunshine around feeling even more pleasant as we go into the new week with those temperatures just starting to climb a little bit more into the 20s with a high of 23 in

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. in just a moment, i'm going to be speaking to immigration minister robert jenrick about the small boats crisis. and then former crisis. ice and then former chancellor kwasi kwarteng will be in the studio. did be joining me in the studio. did his mini—budget play a part in the highest interest rate the uk's highest interest rate in 15 years? stay tuned for all that after the news with polly middlehurst . kamara thank you middlehurst. kamara thank you and good morning to you. the top story from the newsroom today, those who've been wrongfully convicted of crimes will no longer have their living costs docked from their compensation payments . new guidance issued by payments. new guidance issued by justice secretary alex chalk comes into immediate effect

today. comes into immediate effect today . and of course, it follows today. and of course, it follows the controversy sparked by the jailing of andrew malkinson, who spent 70 lean years behind bars for a crime he didn't commit. he voiced his concerns that expenses may be deducted from his compensation , often his compensation, often prompting downing street to make urgent amendments as well. in international news today , international news today, ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy, is accusing russia of bombing a blood transfusion centre in the north—west of ukraine. mr zelenskyy claims a number of people have died and others have been injured , but others have been injured, but the president didn't disclose how many fatalities there were . how many fatalities there were. he described the airstrike in eastern kharkiv region as a war crime. so far , there's been no crime. so far, there's been no comment from russia , but back comment from russia, but back here at home, the national crime agency is teaming up with social media firms to crack down on posts by people smugglers who are encouraging asylum seekers

to cross the english channel. the prime minister says the new partnership between law enforcement agencies and the tech giants will tackle attempts to lure migrants into paying to make the journey. group discounts free spaces for children and offers a false documents among some of the social media posts that rishi sunak wants removed to help achieve his promise to stop the boats , labour says though the boats, labour says though the action is too little, too late . action is too little, too late. storm anthony saw strong winds hit some parts of the uk yesterday and it blocked about 100 miles of railway between exeter and penzance in cornwall, about half a month's worth of rain fell on some areas in the south—west, with a number of people evacuated from their homes in north yorkshire as well due to flooding there. gusts of wind of up to 78 miles an hour, measured as well. berry head in

devon, while 43mm of rain fell in scarborough in north yorkshire . but despite a bit of yorkshire. but despite a bit of rain on the parade, if we can put it like that, brighton's pride celebrations carried on yesterday . things pride celebrations carried on yesterday. things did come to an abrupt stop, though, last night when a band was left on stage without any sound . that band, without any sound. that band, the black eyed peas , nonetheless the black eyed peas, nonetheless were forced to end their set early when the sound cut out and it left fans to carry on the singing. yesterday's event was hit by those train cancellations, as well as the wet and windy weather caused by storm anthony. but trains are now back up and running for day two of the event. meanwhile heavy rains forced the cancellation of newcastle's loose fest yesterday and today, which had been expected to attract around 60,000 people. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on your digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news. this is britain's news .

by saying play gb news. this is britain's news. channel by saying play gb news. this is britain's news . channel well by saying play gb news. this is britain's news. channel well , britain's news. channel well, don't go anywhere. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show because i'm about to speak to immigration minister robert jenrick. then going robert jenrick. i'm then going to in the studio by to be joined in the studio by chancellor to chancellor kwasi kwarteng to discuss interest discuss thursday's interest rate rise of england is rise by the bank of england is trussonomics to blame? let's ask him that. i'm also going to be speaking sirjohn redwood, speaking to sir john redwood, the tory headed the veteran tory mp who headed margaret thatcher's unit, margaret thatcher's policy unit, and speaking to the and i'll be speaking to the economist bootle about the economist roger bootle about the state economy. state of the british economy. but bring robert but first, let's bring robert jenrick conversation jenrick into the conversation now the immigration now. he's the immigration minister the mp for newark. minister and the mp for newark. robert, lovely to speak to you this morning. thank you for coming the home coming on. we've heard the home secretary very secretary speaking in very bullish terms about the immigration the fact immigration policy and the fact that he thinks she thinks that labour have been letting down that he thinks she thinks that lab�*country. been letting down that he thinks she thinks that lab�*country. then letting down that he thinks she thinks that lab�*country. the keirting down that he thinks she thinks that lab�*country. the keir starmern that he thinks she thinks that lab�*country. the keir starmer is the country. the keir starmer is siding with the lefty lawyers who are stopping deportations of rapists and murderers. you're big on talk but not on action, robert, because as labour pointed out, you've more pointed out, you've sent more home rwanda than

home secretaries to rwanda than actual deportees . actual deportees. >> well , good actual deportees. >> well, good morning, camilla. well, we want to send more people to rwanda . we want to get people to rwanda. we want to get that scheme up and running. it is unfortunately being stuck in the courts at the moment, but that's not the totality of our plan. we're working on many other fronts at the same time. we've signed a brilliant deal with albania that's reduced the number of people crossing from albania from 30. this time last year to 4% today. we're working with france, with italy , with with france, with italy, with other countries to make sure that we have stronger defences on the northern french coast and here in the uk we're making it much more difficult for people to work illegally to get housing illegally and to make a life here as well as, of course, making sure that when illegal migrants do come here, they are accommodated in appropriate but simple accommodation, not the luxury hotels that members of the public are rightly angry

about and want to see us get out of as quickly as possible. >> i know the bibby stockholm is going to start taking migrants from tomorrow rishi sunak mentioned two cruise ships that were going used. what's were going to be used. what's happened them? apparently no happened to them? apparently no port to take migrants port wants to take the migrants . they're. >> well, you're right to say that the first barge will be operational within the coming days , and that's an important days, and that's an important step forward . i hope that will step forward. i hope that will be seen as a successful way of housing people, as i say , in decent. >> what about the cruise ships, though? >> accommodation and we're in conference. well, we're in conversation with a number of other ports and hoping that we can secure those very soon. it's true that a couple of ports did back out , mostly because local back out, mostly because local labour councils like in birkenhead and in leith in edinburgh refused to support us very hypocritically actually , if very hypocritically actually, if you look at the leith example,

that's a labour council that had housed ukrainian refugees on the same barge, the same same boat, but refused to house asylum seekers all the time, saying that they are a city of sanctuary and more asylum seekers. is it labour's fault that your immigration policy isn't working? >> then ? >> then? >> then? >> no, but i think it's worth pointing out that labour would be much , much worse. labour's be much, much worse. labour's plan would actually see large numbers of people crossing the channel numbers of people crossing the channel, even larger than there are today because they just think you can grant your way out of this problem . they think that of this problem. they think that you can make 2000 migrants crossing the channel in june . crossing the channel in june. well, we want to see those numbers come down. i mean, as of today, the numbers are significantly lower than they were this time last year, about 15% lower. but of course, that's that's just the beginning . we that's just the beginning. we want to see a substantial reduction. we want to stop the

boats . and that's why we're boats. and that's why we're taking the measures that we are. that's why we passed the illegal migration act. yes. just a few weeks ago, which is probably the most of legislation most okay piece of legislation on immigration in my lifetime. >> suella braverman has talked about these leftie lawyers. there was an expose in the daily mail where they went undercover. they filmed immigration lawyers basically telling clients to game the system. what should happen then? because you're talking the talk on these lawyers is but should they be issued bigger fines issued with even bigger fines talking about 5% of their earnings? surely you need to find them more than that and close them down. >> well, you should be struck off as a lawyer if you flagrantly abuse the law. and thatis flagrantly abuse the law. and that is what i hope will happen to those solicitors and legal representatives who've been caught by the expose, by the daily mail, the solicitors regulatory authority is taking action against them and their firms. we're saying that we want that to continue . we want to

that to continue. we want to find individuals and firms appropriately . as a former appropriately. as a former solicitor , i have been shocked solicitor, i have been shocked by the level of abuse that i've seen in this area of the law . seen in this area of the law. i'm afraid that what you seen so far is just the tip of. >> but are you saying that fellow lawyer, keir starmer is conspiring with those lawyers? is keir starmer in the labour party conspiring with those lawyers? because that's what that's what rishi sunak seems to be suggesting in the tweet he sent out last week. and that's what braverman seems to what suella braverman seems to be . are you also be suggesting. are you also suggesting well , there is suggesting that, well, there is evidence of that. >> yes. i mean, this just this week we've seen an allegation , week we've seen an allegation, an that a labour councillor in newcastle who is also a legal representative , was on tiktok, representative, was on tiktok, apparently soliciting illegal migrants to come to her and she would help them to stay in the uk . now i would help them to stay in the uk. now i think would help them to stay in the uk . now i think that would be uk. now i think that would be news to her residents in

newcastle who probably want like i do, secure borders and control migration. but it is an example all of what the labour party really thinks and as far as i can tell, absolutely nothing has been said or done with respect to that lady. >> one of our people, and that shows what labour, you know, behind the mask really thinks. >> okay, this issue , one of our >> okay, this issue, one of our people's panellists has made the point about the pull factors to the uk. >> there's a reason why people come from wherever they're coming from. they come across the whole europe and they the whole of europe and they still want cross the channel still want to cross the channel to to the uk because we're to come to the uk because we're a soft touch, because we offer to come to the uk because we're a softtoo ch, because we offer to come to the uk because we're a softtoo much,:ause we offer to come to the uk because we're a softtoo much, because offer to come to the uk because we're a softtoo much, because we er to come to the uk because we're a softtoo much, because we give them too much, because we give them too much, because we give them accommodation them housing and accommodation quite comfortable housing and accommodation that they can come here and have a life that they can't live elsewhere. so some of the pull factors are to blame. why don't you pull some of the pull factors out? >> are camilla. that's >> well, we are camilla. that's exactly the work that i've been doing the last six months doing over the last six months with suella braverman . we have with suella braverman. we have changed the accommodation . the

changed the accommodation. the people are staying in, you know , the labour say they , the labour party say they don't like us using disused military sites and barges. they want hotels and my postbag from labour mps is complaining that the accommodation isn't luxurious enough . they want us luxurious enough. they want us to spend more and offer more to illegal migrants. i don't think that's right. i think we have to make sure that the uk isn't perceived to be a soft touch. as you say, quite correctly, the overwhelming majority of those people coming on small boats are coming from france, from a safe country with a well—functioning asylum system. they're choosing to come to the uk and that must be in part because of a perception that the uk is a softer touch. that's why we're changing accommodation. that's why we're making it harder to live and to work illegally in the uk. but are these 50% rise in the number of raids this year by immigration enforcement to try and close down bogus employers? >> have you got control over some of these sites ? have you

some of these sites? have you got control over some of these sites? because we've got local reports of a tb and scabies outbreak at the site in wethersfield. you've got constituents angry about migrants being housed in their doorstep . you've also got your doorstep. you've also got your own mps really cross with you personally? i've heard a lot of criticism of you personally. mr jenrick, for quote is jenrick, for the quote is dumping migrants in their seats and costing them their hopes of electoral success. come 2024. >> well , the reason we're >> well, the reason we're pursuing large sites and barges is so that we can exit the hotels . we don't want people hotels. we don't want people staying in these hotels. they're very expensive and they're not appropriate of course, we understand that in the small number of places where these larger sites and barges are going to be located, that will pose problems for legitimate concerns for the community. and we're working very closely with councils and community groups in each of those places to try to mitigate that, providing extra money for the police and the

health service, for example. but it must be right in the national interest that we house people as other european countries do, and certainly in large sites and on barges and vessels rather than in hotels , which is just simply in hotels, which is just simply creating another pull factor. okay, kingdom robert jenrick, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning. >> thank you. thank you. i'm joined in the studio now by former chancellor of the exchequer and mp for spelthorne kwasi kwarteng. lovely to speak to you. good to see can to you. good to see you. can i just have a bit of reaction to that interview robert that interview with robert jenrick? because i think the perception from audience perception from our audience is that you've got the right ideas. yeah, maybe this is actually akin to mini—budget. it's akin to the mini—budget. it's the right ideas, it's the the right ideas, but it's the wrong execute ation because people are listening to jenrick and pulling their and they'll be pulling their hair going, we the hair out going, we love the rhetoric on but we've rhetoric on this, but we've still got 2000 people arriving by channel in the last month. there is no one being sent to rwanda and seemingly these immigration lawyers are running fings immigration lawyers are running rings around suella braverman on this. >> so actually, in contrast, i

think to the mini—budget where i think to the mini—budget where i think people rightly have said too much was done quickly, too much was done too quickly, the problem we've got here, and robert is of alluded to it, robert is sort of alluded to it, is that there isn't enough action and you mentioned that in your question. there isn't actually. there's the rhetoric, but there's no. >> the government is failing >> so the government is failing the public this. the public on this. >> so issue there and >> so the issue there and i think suella braverman mentioned this yesterday in the report mentioned today , is that you've mentioned today, is that you've got a very strong constituency of lawyers, many of them political motivated, who are actively trying to frustrate what the government is doing. yeah, and that's a big problem because it takes a newspaper sting to expose that. well, it was there before. i mean, it's always been why isn't the government cracking down on these agents? was these rogue agents? well, it was it wasn't, example, it was it wasn't, for example, it was the it was it was the courts who said that the rwanda policy who essentially struck down the rwanda they've rwanda policy and they've intervened the intervened against maybe the rwanda workable rwanda government isn't workable because it's to cost 170 rwanda government isn't workable becauper 's to cost 170 rwanda government isn't workable becauper migrant to cost 170 rwanda government isn't workable becauper migrant to sendi70 rwanda government isn't workable becauper migrant to send anyone there.

>> i mean, it's meant to act as a deterrent. but if 2000 people are still arriving at the channel last month, it's not got a deterrent factor at all. >> people can see what's >> but the people can see what's happening uk. they can happening in the uk. they can see the supreme court and see that the supreme court and other lawyers are actively working to frustrate what is very well known government policy that's the policy and that's what the government's running against. government's running up against. >> frustration , isn't it, >> so the frustration, isn't it, because brexit because people voted for brexit thinking take thinking that we could take control borders and by control of our borders and by the our laws. so why the way, our laws. sure. so why can't we be in charge of who comes and who doesn't? why comes in and who doesn't? why can't get a grip can't the government get a grip on this issue? after 13 years in power? has tried to do power? well, it has tried to do that, and it has passed legislation. >> but then you've got the independent saying independent courts saying you can't that's a big can't do that. and that's a big problem. that's something can't do that. and that's a big problei'm that's something can't do that. and that's a big problei'm sure hat's something can't do that. and that's a big problei'm sure rishi something can't do that. and that's a big problei'm sure rishi sunak1ing can't do that. and that's a big problei'm sure rishi sunak and which i'm sure rishi sunak and robert will be addressing. >> let's move on to the economy, because rate because we had interest rate rise thursday, 5.25. that's rise on thursday, 5.25. that's the highest rate in 15 years, 15 years. is that your fault? >> no, i don't think it is. i think if you look at what's been happening, the inflation has been much higher for a lot longer than the bank of england

and others predicted . and the and others predicted. and the bank of england have recognised themselves that they've got an issue here because they've hired ben bernanke , who is an american ben bernanke, who is an american economist , to look at their economist, to look at their inflation models because they realise look at own inflation. >> is andrew bailey not fit for purpose? well, look, does this man effects of inflation? >> no. so they're doing is >> no. so what they're doing is trying to get a very respected third party to look at how they're inflation. >> bank of england >> and the bank of england governor serious. governor well, it's a serious. >> you're right. it's >> yeah, you're right. it's a serious in the england governor >> why just say that >> why can't you just say that it's you're right that it's a serious it's a serious matter for to bring into for them to bring into confidence in bailey. >> i think i work very >> look, i think i work very well. in my brief tenure with andrew. didn't andrew. i think he's. he didn't see this coming down see this calamity coming down the track. >> didn't clearly that >> he didn't see clearly that inflation would be this high. if you're getting it's a major failing. >> if you're getting an american economist what economist who i don't know what what about uk but what he knows about the uk but if you're bringing him in to look at your inflation models, something's wrong. yeah. look at your inflation models, sonlething's wrong. yeah. look at your inflation models, sonlething's brought]. yeah. look at your inflation models, sonlething's brought ayeah. look at your inflation models, sonlething's brought a canadian >> i mean, we brought a canadian economist in. >> well, he was the governor of

the bank. he the governor the bank. he was the governor of the bank. he was the governor of the was the one who presided >> he was the one who presided over ultra low interest rates. all of that which have now come and easing a and quantitative easing on a mass have now cost mass scale, which have now cost us pocket. us all in the pocket. >> well, may be true, but >> well, that may be true, but i think in terms of the inflation and interest rates, think and interest rates, i think there it big fail in there was it was a big fail in terms of working out where inflation might end and inflation might end up and what's happened since since certainly i've left office certainly since i've left office is that the bank is trying to play is that the bank is trying to play up. so having had play catch up. so having had very, rates, one very, very low rates, one forgets they were, 0.1% forgets how low they were, 0.1% and 5.25. so and then they are now 5.25. so which is 52.5 times more. >> complain that than paying £1,500 last year. and now interest rates have risen to such an extent that their mortgages are now 2500. do you have any sympathy with them? of course i do. i mean, they're saying that they want kind of furlough bail outs for mortgages. >> of course i do. i mean, you know, probably revealing too much. i'm on tracker as well, much. i'm on a tracker as well, so i'm affected how far so i'm affected by how far they've gone up considerably. >> are saying that you >> so are you saying that you have been screwed by your own mini—budget?

>> at all. because? >> no, not at all. because? because camilla, you mixing because camilla, you were mixing two bank is two things. okay? the bank is saying that the mini—budget? >> attributed to >> yeah, it is attributed to interest rates being pushed up as high as they are. so my reaction the inflation going reaction to the inflation going up what i'm trying to up as far as what i'm trying to say you that there are two say to you is that there are two different things. >> of england was in >> the bank of england was in charge of inflation and a lot of my tracker rate and other people's rates be people's tracker rates will be unked bank people's tracker rates will be linked bank rate. yes. linked to the bank rate. yes. and know, whatever margin and you know, whatever margin that to pay and the that you have to pay and the reason interest rates reason why interest rates have gone is because gone up very high is because we've completely missed the goal on yeah, we've on inflation. yeah, we've totally inflation. and totally misjudged inflation. and the making about the point i was making about ben bernanke they brought bernanke is that they brought someone from , um, america to someone in from, um, america to look at their models because the models were clearly wrong. >> and that's your mortgage bill gone up by per month a lot. >> i mean, i'm not to going reveal a great deal since we bought the house in 2021. oh, okay. so it's gone up quite, quite a bit since then. and i'm as exposed to interest rates as anyone else with regard to growth.

>> obviously , you've talked a >> obviously, you've talked a lot about stimulating growth . lot about stimulating growth. what would you like to see in the autumn statement from chancellor? >> there has to be a growth plan, so it's all very well to people, rightly or wrongly, criticise the mini—budget. and it think was too much it was i think it was too much too or have you. there too fast or what have you. there are different perceptions about it, problem it, but the actual problem it was solve, which is was trying to solve, which is trying stimulate growth, was trying to stimulate growth, was 100% the right problem to deal with. and i want to see from a government an attempt to try and deal with that. now, so far they've said they've stabilised things and i think jeremy hunt does deserve credit and rishi sunak, so he should stabilise singled out for stabilising. he should i the should be reshuffle. i was the last chancellor to be sacked and it didn't end very well for the prime minister, i would prime minister, so i would suggest on that front. i suggest caution on that front. i don't think prime minister sacking chancellors is, is a good a good omen, even though to be fair to rishi, he didn't appoint jeremy hunt. it was liz truss who appointed him. so i think that i think they've done the first bit they've shown a

measure of restraint. they've shown balance . yes. and now as shown balance. yes. and now as we go into the election, we have to give something we have to say. so this is the this is the forward plan. this is how we're actually going. >> because when the chancellor says, well, we can't afford tax cuts, response to cuts, what's your response to that? a legitimate that? because it's a legitimate concern, and got concern, isn't it? and we've got household debt now exceeding 2 trillion the very first trillion for the very first time. equivalent to 71,000 time. it's equivalent to 71,000 per . just the per household. is it just the case that successive governments have profligate have been far too profligate with taxpayers cash? >> i think i think the big >> so i think i think the big issue, which no one wants to address, is public spending. pubuc address, is public spending. public very public spending is very, very high. and doesn't take high. and it doesn't take a mathematician to work if mathematician to work out if your growing your public spending is growing at and your economies at 3% a year and your economies growing half a% a year, how growing at half a% a year, how are you going to pay for the pubuc are you going to pay for the public and the answer public spending? and the answer so has through more so far has been through more tax. we've tax. that's why we've got a very, high tax burden. our very, very high tax burden. our attempt to reduce that was which spooked the markets, frankly, was perhaps much too was perhaps too much too quickly. was too much to quickly. it was too much to digest. >> hunt, need f—- >> jeremy hunt, need to do some of that. >> jeremy hunt, need to do some of tso . >> jeremy hunt, need to do some of tso i think there has to be a

balance. >> which aspects you like? >> which aspects would you like? >> which aspects would you like? >> think well, i mean, he can >> i think well, i mean, he can look at a whole range of things. and just about reducing and it's not just about reducing pubuc and it's not just about reducing public spending. it's about reducing rate at the reducing the rate at which the pubuc reducing the rate at which the public increases. public spending increases. i know slightly difficult know it's a slightly difficult concept, know, you have concept, but, you know, you have to try and have some restraint in order to kind of reduce the spending need because otherwise call for restraint, you'll be accused austerity, accused of austerity, too. >> things, all of i >> all of those things, all of i mean, that's the political but the is that if you're the dilemma is that if you're spending than you're spending more than you're getting in, you to put up taxes. >> and that's the doom loop. >> and that's the doom loop. >> but if you're spending more than. exactly. then than. yeah, exactly. but then you need the spending more than they're in, then the they're bringing in, then the argument cuts is argument for tax cuts is erroneous, isn't it? because people say, well, no, people will then say, well, no, you to that you can't afford to do that ehhen you can't afford to do that either. no. >> what you have to do is and >> so what you have to do is and he actually mentioned this in his statement, which was his autumn statement, which was what going what we what i was going to do, what we did mini—budget was that did in the mini—budget was that we measures and then we had the tax measures and then we had the tax measures and then we going to announce the we were going to announce the spending measures. but we didn't get but what has to get that far. but what he has to do is to is to try and present a case for spending restraint.

restraint, yes. and also trying to put more money into the economy by cutting if he reducing any tax, which one should he cut first? well, there are lots there are a whole range of taxes. >> you're talking about income. are you talking about corporation? >> favoured view was to >> my own favoured view was to start which what liz start off, which is what liz campaigned on in terms of the corporation tax. yes. and then i think we tried to do much in think we tried to do too much in the mini—budget. i think we the mini—budget. i think if we just focussed. >> so maybe start with business taxes. >> think it has to be >> yes, i think it has to be sequenced. do you feel that businesses this country are businesses in this country are being conservative businesses in this country are being because zonservative businesses in this country are being because that'svative businesses in this country are being because that's how; businesses in this country are beingseem because that's how; businesses in this country are beingseem to yecause that's how; businesses in this country are beingseem to feel?.e that's how; businesses in this country are beingseem to feel? i that's how; businesses in this country are beingseem to feel? i think; how; they seem to feel? i think i think going from 19% to in think going from 19% to 25% in corporation tax very corporation tax is very challenging. yes. also we challenging. yes. and also we want make your economy want to make your economy attractive . i mean, in ireland, attractive. i mean, in ireland, they have, what, 12% corporation tax? >> well, we were meant to be more competitive after brexit, right? meant be on right? we weren't meant to be on a par with france and germany. no. >> and in ireland, the top rate of tax is 40, whereas in our country it's the corporation tax is the rate of tax is 25. and the top rate of tax is 25. and the top rate of tax is 45. if you're a successful businessman, can see why

businessman, you can see why they might want to go to ireland and uk . and instead of the uk. >> we've talked about government debt, talked debt, we've talked about household told me household debt. you've told me about mortgage. are you about your own mortgage. are you worried that there is a generation or caucus of people that are just so mortgaged to the eyeballs that it's a massive problem coming down the track ? problem coming down the track? and we've already seen house pnces and we've already seen house prices fall ? all yeah. are we prices fall? all yeah. are we facing another housing crisis? >> no, i think we i it's >> no, i think we i think it's too to easy say that we're going too to easy say that we're going to go down the road of sort of housing armageddon. don't housing armageddon. i don't think the i think think that's the case. i think there's still a huge amount of demand properties. there's there's still a huge amount of dem a|d properties. there's there's still a huge amount of dem a sense)roperties. there's there's still a huge amount of dem a sense)ropewe're there's there's still a huge amount of dem a sense)ropewe're not'e's still a sense that we're not building enough homes. >> have extraordinary >> people have got extraordinary amounts debt, amounts of mortgage debt, haven't they? amounts of mortgage debt, haers. they? >> yes. >> yes. >> what happens further down >> and what happens further down the these people the line? are these people saving their pensions? is saving for their pensions? is the pension? so the property their pension? so all say about that is all i would say about that is that the situation is bad. >> mean, viewers, not >> i mean, older viewers, not even that viewers, but the even that old viewers, but the early we had, what, 15% early 90s, we had, what, 15% interest that was interest rates and that was punitive. think there's punitive. i don't think there's any that, actually. but any risk of that, actually. but i think what got to try i think what we've got to try and is we've got to build and do is we've got to build more housing where we can do

that and increase the supply. >> what's feeling >> but what's your feeling on where i where interest rates will go? i note that you're on a tracker. does mean that you're does that mean that you're thinking that they might stay at five come down? i think five and come down? i think i think i they will put it think i think they will put it this way. >> think they've gone more >> i think they've gone up more than they're to go up in than they're going to go up in the future. but where the the future. right. but where the point optimal point the future. right. but where the poiwhether optimal point the future. right. but where the poiwhether ratherptimal point the future. right. but where the poiwhether rather the al point the future. right. but where the poiwhether rather the highest is, whether rather the highest point matter of point is a matter of speculation. i mean, i'm sure you've roger bootle coming in. >> he'll have his i'll ask him the same question. i think there's perhaps there's this perception perhaps that will that interest rates now will forever remain at 4 or 5% and never to that zero or never go back to that zero or close to zero. i think it's very unlikely they'll go back to 0.1. >> i even at the time we >> i mean, even at the time we realised that that was exceptional and but i think they can down or 3. they can go back down to 2 or 3. they have done in the past and they might do again in the future. and final question, kwasi do you think minister will think the prime minister will hit inflation to hit this inflation target to halve end of the year? halve it by the end of the year? i think it's quite tricky. we're august we'll see what the august now. we'll see what the july figure think it'll be july figure is. i think it'll be it'll be nip and tuck, as they say, and go. whether

say, touch and go. whether he hits but i think it's hits that. but i think it's coming down. but obviously not as quickly as many of us would like to see. >> kwasi kwarteng , thank you >> kwasi kwarteng, thank you very for joining >> kwasi kwarteng, thank you very forjoining me this very much for joining me this morning. thank you. lovely to speak you. now let's back speak to you. now let's go back to bournemouth, olivia to bournemouth, where olivia utley people's utley is with the people's panel. to find out panel. delighted to find out what made the what they've made of the interviews, because interviews, not least because i hope that i did hope they noted that i did insert their questions into my questions to the guests. >> well, absolutely . we've been >> well, absolutely. we've been watching closely here in watching very closely here in bournemouth. i've seen a few nods, shakes of the head, nods, a few shakes of the head, the odd chuckle of disbelief , the odd chuckle of disbelief, even from our two panellists today , dave and steve. and dave, today, dave and steve. and dave, i'm going to start with you. there because camilla put a few of your questions to the panellists on the show and she talked to robert jenrick about the pull factors that you mentioned. those immigrants coming over to the uk because they get such a wealth of benefits when they come here as opposed to other european countries. how did you feel that he answered your question properly? >> no, i think he glossed over

it. i mean, if you look at the pro—immigration lobby groups, they they advertise the pull factors for the uk care for calais is one example of that. they go over to france and they introduce shopping lists and say, this is what you can get if you come to the uk. now obviously they're private organisations, they're entitled to actually go to do that. if you actually go on the uk government website. on to the uk government website. but to immigration but in regards to immigration benefits, uk government benefits, even the uk government are producing this are still producing this shopping list of all the benefits that people coming across channel will receive across the channel will receive . so don't think they're doing . so i don't think they're doing themselves any favours by proactively advertising these pull factors . pull factors. >> i think there are plenty of people who would agree with you on that . and steve, what about on that. and steve, what about you?i on that. and steve, what about you? i know that you're a sort of disillusioned former conservative member. what did you make of what robert jenrick had to say about the immigration situation ? situation? >> well, robert jenrick was a former housing minister and housing is my background. and we've had 15 housing ministers and they've not anything

and they've not done anything about the crisis. so as about the housing crisis. so as far as him doing anything about the immigration crisis, the jury's the immigration crisis, the jury's out. if one of the pull factors that we've been mentioning, nobody ever says how many of these people that come over illegally are actually ultimately when the process allowed to remain. i've been told it's over 90. if it's over, 90% are ultimately allowed to remain and less than 5% that are ultimately deported . if i was ultimately deported. if i was a people smuggler, i'd be in france saying pay me a few thousand pounds, come across the channel you'll be put in a hotel or somewhere for two years, and then you've got a 95% chance of actually being allowed to stay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'thely being allowed to stay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'the country allowed to stay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'the country anyway. to stay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'the country anyway. so stay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'the country anyway. so if ay then you've got a 95% chance of ac'the country anyway. so if i/ in the country anyway. so if i was one of those people affected by be saying, yes, by that, i'd be saying, yes, please, here's the money. >> absolutely. i'm going do >> absolutely. i'm going to do a bit of ping pong here. to bit of ping pong here. back to you again . there was there was you again. there was there was talk there , as you have talk there, as you will have noticed, camilla asked your question about the just stop oil links to stephen links with labour to stephen timms did what he said sort of reassure at all? you seem to reassure you at all? you seem to be shaking head. be shaking your head.

>> dodged that question. >> no, he dodged that question. absolutely and i think, you know , fair play to the government . , fair play to the government. they've distanced themselves from greenpeace and that's thanks to the environmental minister . thanks to the environmental minister. she did that clearly last week. and i think the labour party could do themselves a big favour by distancing themselves and shunning all connections with anything that's related to just stop oil >> yeah, thank you very much. it's easier said than done when they need that money and back to you for our final question. steve do you have a background in housing? don't you? you're a retired ceo of a housing association. kwasi kwarteng said there that he doesn't think there that he doesn't think there is going to be a housing armageddon. do you make of that? >> well, i would tend to disagree with him to extent disagree with him to the extent that in the early 90s that he was on about property prices were interest were a lot lower. so interest rates could be a lot higher because people were paying proportionately less. now everybody's lot more everybody's paying a lot more for property. so if interest for the property. so if interest rates they've got a lot rates go up, they've got a lot less disposable income. in the

early 90s, i was a homelessness officer the borough of poole officer for the borough of poole and was constantly putting and i was constantly putting people breakfast. people in bed and breakfast. i can in about a or so's can see in about a year or so's time when all this kicks off, we're going to having a lot we're going to be having a lot more the same. more of the same. and i understand at the moment there's more children in temporary accommodation the moment than accommodation at the moment than there have before there ever have been before since began. can since records began. so i can only getting worse before only see it getting worse before it gets better. >> thank you very much. a pretty stark message finish off stark message to finish off there. be looking at there. could we be looking at another homelessness crisis like the again? so this was our the 1990s again? so this was our people's panel in bournemouth. fantastic to hear them, as fantastic to hear from them, as always. back to you the always. now back to you in the studio. thanks much for that, olivia. >> don't you notice how our people's often speak people's panellists often speak more the politicians more sense than the politicians we show? we have appearing on the show? with disrespect to the with no disrespect to the politicians, there is a politicians, but there is a clarity thought among clarity of thought among our people's panellists, is people's panellists, which is unparalleled on any other show in broadcasting . there you in broadcasting. so there you have don't go anywhere, have it. now don't go anywhere, because we're going because next we're going to be heanng because next we're going to be hearing from the leading economist, roger bootle, about the british the state of the british economy. i'm also going to economy. and i'm also going to be veteran sir be speaking to tory veteran sir john former head of john redwood, the former head of margaret thatcher's policy unit,

to out what thatcher might to find out what thatcher might have net zero. and have met, made of net zero. and on subject, the on that subject, here's the weather , that warm feeling weather, that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello, my name is rachel ayers and welcome to our latest gb news weather forecast brought to you by the met office. so after an unsettled start to the weekend, things do look better for the second half of the weekend as storm anthony moves away to the east, putting us in this northwesterly air flow. so bringing us some showers today, but also plenty of sunny spells for many , it will be a dry day. for many, it will be a dry day. the showers will be mostly focussed down the central spine of the uk , heaviest across of the uk, heaviest across scotland , northern england and scotland, northern england and northern ireland. we could also see the odd rumble of thunder, though with lighter winds still brisk down. some eastern coasts feeling more pleasant than it did on saturday. so as we go through this evening, those showers will continue for a time

, but becoming increasingly confined to northern areas with clear spells developing elsewhere . and with those light elsewhere. and with those light winds that could mean we see the odd patch of mist and fog for some southern and eastern areas. but temperatures will drop a little bit more readily again tonight. so more widely, a chilly night with temperatures in rural areas dropping into single figures. so a fresh, bright start to the new week. we will see a few showers developing again, mostly across the northern half of the uk. plenty of brightness in the southwest. at first, but cloud starting to move into the afternoon as we get the next low pressure system moving in and once again feeling pleasant in the sunshine on that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers proud sponsors of weather on gb news

>> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. thank you for joining me this morning. now i've got the perfect guest in the studio help us get our the studio to help us get our heads around what's going on with british economy. with the british economy. interest rates at a 15 year interest rates now at a 15 year high. roger bootle, the senior independent capital independent advisor to capital economics, a economics, joins me now, a leading expert on leading economist, an expert on all these matters. roger, first of all, you might have seen my interview with kwasi interview earlier with kwasi kwarteng reaction kwarteng. what's your reaction to saying there? he's to what he's saying there? he's talking about bringing government spending down

corporation tax cut , stimulating corporation tax cut, stimulating growth in a different way. do you agree with that analysis ? you agree with that analysis? >> yes, i do, actually. it's a shame that he's come to that realisation now, as it were, and we had that botched experiment before. but now i think he's largely right. >> and what should jeremy hunt do in the autumn statement, do you think? do in the autumn statement, do youwell, ? think he's boxed >> well, i think he's boxed in really by what he's done before and what he's said before. and by what he's said before. he's cut he's not going to cut corporation tax, is he? and i don't he's going cut don't suppose he's going to cut government spending, he should. >> mean, he's not going to >> i mean, he's not going to because it looks politically weak. as businesses weak. but as far as businesses are i what are are concerned, i mean, what are you hearing from businesses? because journalistic because in a journalistic capacity, hearing capacity, we i'm hearing businesses hair businesses tearing their hair out, it's more out, thinking it's more difficult to start difficult than ever to start a business. let alone to keep it afloat. there's been lots of handouts individuals when handouts for individuals when it comes energy bills. comes to help with energy bills. we got the federation of small businesses, i think, last month saying that 100,000 businesses face going under this winter because of their own energy bills. has the tory government, the so—called government of

business, been found wanting when it comes to helping businesses? >> yes , as i think the answer, >> yes, as i think the answer, yes. but you know, the big issue is the macro economy . and you is the macro economy. and you don't solve those problems by frankly dishing out handouts , frankly dishing out handouts, although we have been doing that over the last few years in various suspect he's various ways. i suspect he's going have to do little going to have to do very little actually, autumn actually, in this autumn statement . it's a of just statement. it's a case of just trying to keep the ship afloat, keeping it steady and hoping that things pan out. okay now i'm actually reasonably pessimistic. i'm fortunately about the outlook for interest rates and inflation. right. i think it take a lot longer for that to come. right. but they've got to hope that that is going to come right where i very much agree with kwasi was on public spending. you can't spending. you know, you can't square circle unless you square this circle unless you get grips public get to grips with public spending one to spending and the obvious one to do about is to scrap do something about is to scrap it. yes >> even though we've already spent billions on it, there's a well—known in economics. spent billions on it, there's a welyou1own in economics. spent billions on it, there's a welyou must in economics. spent billions on it, there's a welyou must let in economics. spent billions on it, there's a welyou must let bygonesymics. spent billions on it, there's a welyou must let bygones be :s. >> you must let bygones be bygones. all rational decisions are forward looking. forget what you've spent. look at what the

position is now going forward and what are the advantages. and i think there pretty slender and the costs are still rising. >> that's the first loss is your best loss theory when it comes to government spending in general, though, and also in terms of household debt. i was intrigued to read a piece that you recently for the you wrote recently for the telegraph headlined it telegraph. we headlined it forget sky high debt. the real economic danger is a lack of growth. but that's to not say that you're not worried about sky are you, sky high debt, are you, roger? you're absolutely right, because as know , being as you you all know, being a columnist one of the columnist yourself, one of the problems got no problems is you've got no control headlines. control over the headlines. well, do tend to quite well, we do tend to put quite sensational headlines on things, so people click on the story. but to me, though . but explain that to me, though. sky debt is a problem , but sky high debt is a problem, but it's as big a problem as the it's not as big a problem as the lack growth in this country. lack of growth in this country. is the premise? is that the premise? >> well, are a couple >> yes. well, there are a couple of strands to this. the first is that keep talking about that people keep talking about the debt. it's not the national debt. it's not really the national debt at all. it's debt. the it's the public debt. it's the debt government. the debt of the government. the state to else. most of state to everyone else. most of those everyone else are, in

fact, other british people or or pension funds, insurance companies or whatever. so that's the first thing people think this vast debt owed by this is know vast debt owed by the country. not. and the the country. it's not. and the second is we've been here second thing is we've been here before after the napoleonic before or after the napoleonic wars , which i don't myself wars, which i don't myself remember . wars, which i don't myself remember. the wars, which i don't myself remember . the debt wars, which i don't myself remember. the debt was something like 260% of gdp as opposed to around about 100. we're at now. and also after the second world war, it was around about that. so we've been there before. we've worked it down working it down means maintaining confidence . it's keeping down confidence. it's keeping down government spending long, keeping the deficit down. so the debt doesn't keep building up. but the most important is but the most important thing is having economy growing. and but the most important thing is ha'the economy growing. and but the most important thing is ha'the economyomy growing. and but the most important thing is ha'the economy grows, )wing. and but the most important thing is ha'the economy grows, that]. and as the economy grows, that enables you put up with what enables you to put up with what is too high a level of debt . is too high a level of debt. >> but then i remember ronald reagan famously quoted as saying the deficit is big enough to look after itself. and yet at the same time, reaganomics is associated period of associated with a period of high growth in the so how do you growth in the us. so how do you square because he square that circle? because he wasn't worried about the deficit? >> well, no . and in the end, of

>> well, no. and in the end, of course, america didn't actually get its financial get out of its financial problems. that worked problems. i mean, that worked for a time, that policy and trust, of course, was following for a time, that policy and trust, othatirse, was following for a time, that policy and trust, othat rubric. s following for a time, that policy and trust, othat rubric. i following for a time, that policy and trust, othat rubric. i thinkying exactly that rubric. i think there big limits to this, there are big limits to this, and particularly for an economy like which is much more like the uk, which is much more vulnerable us , you vulnerable than the us, you can't just say to hell with the deficit, we're going to cut taxes anyway. i think the objective cutting taxes is objective of cutting taxes is absolutely but to do that absolutely right. but to do that in a sustainable way in this economy, you've got tackle economy, you've got to tackle government that government spending. and that was big mistake. i think was the big mistake. i think under was the big mistake. i think uncand about productivity ? >> and what about productivity? because a key concern because i think a key concern from people watching and listening that we listening to this is that we just as productive as we just aren't as productive as we used this move used to be. also, this move towards work from home, perhaps as adversely affected productivity . i as adversely affected productivity. i don't as adversely affected productivity . i don't know what productivity. i don't know what your take is on that. roger >> yes, i think it probably has. and this is a problem, of course, we've had for a long time. it's got worse for a variety of reasons. regulation is one, we're over regulated, over regulated and regulated in the wrong way. the public sector, as i think by and large,

a baleful influence across the whole economy and its own productivity, is pretty poor. >> the public sector is too large. >> it is too large, absolutely interferes too much and is my own experience confirms is deeply inefficient . yes, but on deeply inefficient. yes, but on working from home is of course been a great benefit for a number of people, but i don't think it's been great for productivity. >> no. and when kwasi talked about you think he's more optimistic than you're to going be about this debt mountain, particularly people's mortgage debt catching up with them . are debt catching up with them. are you worried about a time bomb waiting to explode because you also wrote a piece for us where you said, again, might not be you said, again, it might not be your but this the your headline, but this was the thrust the article on thrust of the article on britain's property boom britain's property wealth boom is and national is an illusion. and the national fixation the ladder fixation with the housing ladder ignores fundamental flaws in the market. what did you mean by that? >> well, what i meant was this is really a dichotomy between wealth appears to individuals and their families and, as it were, wealth for the country as a whole. if you don't do anything to your property, you

just sit there and live in it and the price goes up 3 4 and the price goes up 3 or 4 times, which what is the times, which is what is the experience of millions of ordinary people in this country. you in you feel richer and indeed in some senses you are richer in some senses you are richer in some senses you the end some senses when you at the end of you move down or of your life you move down or whatever, or sell the house or leave it to your children, then that you can use. that wealth that you can use. but you ask yourself the but if you ask yourself the question, what does that done to but if you ask yourself the quereali, what does that done to but if you ask yourself the que real wealth does that done to but if you ask yourself the que real wealth ofzs that done to but if you ask yourself the que real wealth ofzs trcountry, to the real wealth of the country, the real wealth of the country, the fact that your wealth has gone 3 4 times the paper gone up 3 or 4 times the paper wealth worth of house and wealth worth of the house and the answer is it's done nothing at all. acacia croydon at all. 39 acacia avenue croydon is still doing exactly what it did before for us as it sits there and it provides housing services. so there's an illusion and people think that constantly rising house prices are in some sense or other, making the country better off. they're not. >> what do you >> all right. what do you think's going to happen to interest rates over the course of the next year to 18 months, high level or come down? >> answer is, i don't >> the honest answer is, i don't know. is they're know. but my fear is they're going have to go up some going to have to go up some more. i've on record as saying i think the will be something

think the peak will be something like 6, right. don't like about 6, right. i don't know. depends, course, on know. it depends, of course, on what to inflation. but i what happens to inflation. but i think inflation going to be think inflation is going to be quite and the bank think inflation is going to be quit> they're left leaning. >> they're too left leaning. they're too kind of prone to treasury . see that treasury orthodoxy. see that they rather they are managing decline rather than stimulating growth. just characterise with characterise what's wrong with this committee? >> there are big mistake >> well, there are big mistake was spot inflation rising was not to spot inflation rising on the horizon when some other people and people outside could, and that's, i think, nothing whatever to do with left wing politics. it's to do with their take on economics , if you like, take on economics, if you like,

and the way they observe the economy. and the bank of england model to next useless. so model was to next useless. so i think there's been something wrong with the quality and behaviour and nature of the people and in people on the committee and in particular it it too particular it was it was too much in one vein of one intellectual approach . we need intellectual approach. we need some mavericks on that committee i >> -- >> good point upon which to end .thank >> good point upon which to end . thank you very much for your time this morning. roger bootle. we need more mavericks, we need them more mavericks in general. i suggest that talking of i would suggest that talking of mavericks, to be mavericks, we're going to be speaking redwood speaking to john redwood next. don't that's don't go anywhere. that's margaret favourite mp don't go anywhere. that's marghert favourite mp don't go anywhere. that's margher former favourite mp don't go anywhere. that's margher former policy|vourite mp don't go anywhere. that's margher former policy advisor mp and her former policy advisor will be back in

welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now it's the interview i've been waiting for. you've been waiting for. sir john redwood joins me now . i've john redwood joins me now. i've described him as margaret thatcher's favourite mp. i think there's somebody behind me, michael for his show that preparing for his show that objects me using that. so i objects to me using that. so i should john, you're one of should say, john, you're one of her mps. and i'd her favourite mps. and what i'd love to from you is what love to know from you is what you thatcher might have you think thatcher might have made of . net zero. made of. net zero. >> well, as a scientist worried about the environment , she would about the environment, she would have taken the scientific advice very seriously, but she would not have adopted policies in britain , which singled us out britain, which singled us out for particular punishment, but left the world with more co2 . as left the world with more co2. as a result, she would not have been a fan of any policy which banned things in britain, leading to imports. which gave you more co2 because of the to

transport get the goods into britain . and in the case of gas, britain. and in the case of gas, of course, doubly damaging because you import gas in uquefied because you import gas in liquefied form where an awful lot of extra energy is being used to liquefy it and then to convert it back into gas as well as for the transport. so she would have seen how foolish that policy was. i'm very glad the government has now recognised that we should get out more of our own oil and gas all the time. we need fossil fuels, but i think they also need to review their work on the motor industry because grave danger of because we're in grave danger of killing own motor industry . killing our own motor industry. and then lot of people after and then a lot of people after 2030 will be queuing up to buy nearly new imported and nearly new imported petrol and diesel cars because they're not convinced about the electric versions. >> should they stop this ban from the new to diesels from 2030 on the new to diesels and petrols john, should should the government just pause that policy ? policy? >> they should pause that policy , as the european union has done and the european union is particularly enthused about net zero policies, as we know. but

they see that it's going to kill they see that it's going to kill the german motor industry. but the german motor industry. but the other thing they need to do urgently, this government , the other thing they need to do urgently, this government, is to suspend the policy of taxing companies from next year. if they don't sell enough electric cars and sell too many petrol and diesel cars. it's a crazy disincentive to any manufacturer to come to britain and a particular barrier for our industry at a time when it needs support and help. the industry is crying out to lift that. so i would urge the government to do that immediately. would urge the government to do that immediately . we also need that immediately. we also need to review the whole nexus of extra taxes on business. it's not just the big increase in corporation tax, but it's the extra penalties on drug suppliers to the nhs. it's the windfall taxes on oil and gas which were imposed when oil and gas prices were hugely higher than they are today . but they than they are today. but they didn't, of course , define didn't, of course, define a windfall properly. and so they're still charging the same windfall tax even though the pnces windfall tax even though the prices have come down a long

way. again in your mind, what should corporations tax be set at 12.5, along with the irish? i think the irish have got this right. i mean, as i've been explaining to the government for several years, the irish collect four times as much tax per head from business tax than we do by setting a rate which is now half our level. and we've watched as ireland has attracted massive american investment, particularly in the digital industries, the really exciting growth area of the world economy . and much of that investment would probably come to britain if we'd had the same corporation tax rate as the republic of ireland. >> yes . as a staunch brexiteer, >> yes. as a staunch brexiteer, are you as frustrated as other people who voted for leave in 2016 that the government hasn't done enough to maximise some of our post—brexit opportunities? well indeed. >> i mean i and like minded mps are constantly bombarding the government with idea after idea of how we can take advantage of

these great freedoms . but these great freedoms. but there's been a marked reluctance , particularly at the treasury. let's take the case of vat . let's take the case of vat. there was a tax imposed by the european union and some of its revenues taken by the european union ripe for reform . but we union ripe for reform. but we still haven't permanently abolished vat on all green products, for example, which you'd have thought was a was a no brainer . we haven't raised no brainer. we haven't raised the vat threshold for small business and your previous guest was reinforcing your point that it's very difficult setting up and growing small businesses in britain more than it should be. and one of the big barriers is that as soon as you hit 85,000 turnover for yes , you then have turnover for yes, you then have to register for vat and put your pnces to register for vat and put your prices up by 20. well, that's too soon. why not raise the threshold to 250,000? we'd immediately get a growth in capacity and activity because there are a lot of businesses that stop trading when they get to the 85,000. >> when you make this point to the chancellor, does he listen ?

the chancellor, does he listen? >> well, yes. you're always very polite and you always listened, but he obviously doesn't agree. he listens and ignores the treasury orthodoxy, defends every bit of vat they've got at the moment . and of course, it the moment. and of course, it was the treasury orthodoxy which, for example, gave george osborne the idea increasing osborne the idea of increasing vat on things that people just thought were outrageous. and that his face. no, that blew up in his face. no, there to be remodelling of there has to be a remodelling of vat we need taxes that make vat and we need taxes that make sense for britain to promote more growth, because as roger bootle was rightly saying, if you get more growth, the deficit will come down faster than if you go for the recession model. yes, the bank of england has behaved extremely badly in the last 3 or 4 years because its model doesn't work. it now accepts that its model doesn't work. its forecasts have been wildly inaccurate, both on inflation and on growth , and yet inflation and on growth, and yet they're still making these regular calls about hiking interest rates up when they know their forecasts don't work . and their forecasts don't work. and in these latest aukus forecasts

, they tell us there is a 90% probability be that unemployment in three years time will be somewhere between 2% and 8. well yes, i agree with that. but that's highs and lows for the decade. >> so, john, i think we're going to have to leave it there. i'm afraid very different policy if unemployment was about to halve to 2. okay john, then the policy would follow. >> it's about to double. >> if it's about to double. >> if it's about to double. >> redwood, you very >> john redwood, thank you very much for joining much indeed for joining me this morning. it's morning. now up next, it's michael portillo. be back michael portillo. i'll be back at next week at 930, but first, here's some weather . here's some more weather. >> looks like things are heating up . boxed boilers prowl sponsors up. boxed boilers prowl sponsors of weather on . gb news. hello my of weather on. gb news. hello my name is rachel ayers and welcome to our latest gb news weather forecast brought to you by the met office. >> so after an unsettled start to the weekend, things do look better for the second half of the weekend as storm anthony moves away to the east, putting

us in this northwest easterly airflow. so bringing us some showers today, but also plenty of sunny spells for many, it will be a dry day. of sunny spells for many, it will be a dry day . the showers will be a dry day. the showers will be a dry day. the showers will be a dry day. the showers will be mostly focussed down the central spine of the uk , central spine of the uk, heaviest across scotland and northern england and northern ireland. we could also see the odd rumble of thunder, though, with a lighter winds still brisk down. some eastern coasts feeling more pleasant than it did on saturday. so as we go through this evening, did on saturday. so as we go through this evening , those through this evening, those showers will continue for a time , but becoming increasingly confined to northern areas with clear spells developing elsewhere . and with those light elsewhere. and with those light winds, that could mean we see the odd patch of mist and fog for some southern and eastern areas. but temperatures will drop a little bit more readily again tonight. so more widely, a chilly night with temperatures in rural areas dropping into single figures. so a fresh, bright start to the new week. we will see a few showers developing again, mostly across the northern half of the uk.

plenty of brightness in the southwest. at first, but cloud starting to move into the afternoon as we get the next low pressure system moving in and once again feeling pleasant in the sunshine and looks like things are heating up. >> but next boilers proud sponsors of weather on .

gb news. >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo . sunday with michael portillo. settle in for a late morning maraud through world affairs and the arts and a high noon of culture and ethical debate starting this week with politics. rishi sunak that seems to have zeroed in on his election strategy. he will establish clear blue water between the tories and labour on the issue of net zero. he has attacked what he calls anti motorist policies like the ultra low emissions zone and the government has offered new licences for oil and gas exploration offshore to howls of anguish from green campaigners. can the conservatives drill down to discover electoral advantage in west africa, a deadline approaches for the democratically elected president of niger to be reinstated after being ousted in a military coup last week . the revolution fits a

last week. the revolution fits a pattern repeated