well. yes . yes. >> a very good morning to you. welcome to the camilla tominey show with me, tom harwood i'm covering whilst camilla is away, but this is the only politics show being broadcast on british television this morning. so don't go anywhere. we've got an enormous array of guests and some huge issues to get through. i'll be quizzing the schools minister nick gibb on a whole host of things, not least what the powers the lucy letby inquiry should have of big discussions there as to whether this should be a statutory inquiry or not. but and there's some interesting reasons behind the other issue. there will be digging into the details . the other issue. there will be digging into the details. i'll also be speaking to the former justice secretary, sir robert buckland . and should lucy, let buckland. and should lucy, let me be forced to attend her

sentence hearing tomorrow and can she be.7 she sentence hearing tomorrow and can she be? she said that she's not going to turn up. well i'll also be speaking to one of the uk's richest men, the founder of phones for you, john caldwell. he's been a big donor to the conservative party in the past. he gave them half £1 million before the last election. well, i'll be asking him whether he thinks the conservatives are doing enough to support the business community or whether he's tempted by sir keir starmer's labour party and this week we saw the amount of migrants arriving on small boats hit 25,000. since rishi sunak became prime minister. i'll be speaking to the man who was the head of professional standards for the australian government's off shore processing scheme in nauru. but now let's turn through the front pages. the sunday telegraph says dr. miers wage war on nhs managers after

letby . that's the sunday letby. that's the sunday telegraph there. the sunday times, however, says us killer letby was offered role at top children's hospital after witch hunt. so sticking to a similar theme there, the observer, of course, continues with the biggest story in town . now biggest story in town. now investigate hospital bosses left to be trial expert urges police lots to be stuck in getting stuck into there and the mail on sunday says now roar to victory lionesses by order of the king that of course, the other big story this morning and on to the sunday express boots crisis eu revenge for brett exit that's what the former heads of the uk border agency has said and to the sun on sunday now race row star quits emmerdale that a little leftfield story of course

it talks about the football as well but the sunday mirror back to the lioness is and their big game in australia later today lionesses we can win or lioness we can win rather. but let's turn to now perhaps the stories behind the front pages . a bit behind the front pages. a bit more of the detail in all of this. i'm delighted to be joined by the legendary broadcaster john sergeant and john, there is so much across the papers, two stories dominate it, but perhaps let's start with the news that broke on friday about lucy letby . you've picked out some interesting detail in the sunday times. >> yes, the sunday times have carried out a full in investigation as to what they think happened . and it is, of think happened. and it is, of course, a terrible story. and particularly poignant and grim looking back is a meeting that letby had with her parents at

the hospital in 20. would you believe it, 2016? i mean, it's extraordinary as far back as that. extraordinary as far back as that . and that's where the that. and that's where the hospital management apologised to her and her parents. i mean, it's this is the grotesque moment and the parents and she is then told that the doctors who've been investigating it and believe that she was responsible or think she's responsible for murders at this point . they murders at this point. they these doctors say the management at this meeting that the doctors will be dealt with . this is the will be dealt with. this is the management speaking . i mean, it management speaking. i mean, it is extraordinary. it took sunday times as it took almost two years after the first three murders for the hospital managers to alert the police. isn't that extraordinary? and one of the consultants says in the same investigation . 4 or 5 the same investigation. 4 or 5 babies who were murdered could still be alive. now, if they

take an action, then so the whole thing is just i know it's one of the grimmest stories i think i ever seen in a newspaper. it is extra ordinary to see how the management almost act to protect this nurse rather than looking into the whistleblower thing that was going on. >> and this in particular, because one of those executives lives when he became the executive of the hospital and said he wanted the most open culture for whistleblowing to start with, that's it. >> there's a video of him has already been broadcast with him saying, no, this will be what i'll be judged on. and this extraordinary sort of i don't know, it turns out to be the most absurd pledge that he would always respond . and of course, always respond. and of course, when it comes to it, he doesn't respond at all properly . and respond at all properly. and this is the point that in the sunday times story, she is then offered a role as a master's degree in nursing and a placement at the old children's

hospital in liverpool, a very important, very famous hospital in liverpool. and to think that this killer could not only just be absolved from what she called bullying and accusation . and so. bullying and accusation. and so. no, no, we must apologise to her, but also give her a chance to continue her career at this top hospital. this is years ago. this is we're talking about, you know. yeah, several years before it became obvious what was going on. so it is a terrible indictment. the sunday telegraph says the management must be held account for what they that they failed , that they failed these failed, that they failed these patients in the most grotesque way. it really is. i don't know what these managers are going to say when they finally come up with the inquiry, but it's not going to be very convincing. i wouldn't have thought. no, really. huge things for the >> some huge things for the inquiry into and inquiry to get stuck into and some questions how much some questions over how much power will have. power that's inquiry will have. but must on because but but we must move on because

there another big, big story there is another big, big story today. and picked an today. and you've picked an interesting contrast here between two stories in two different papers. the sunday telegraph carries the story that the prince has apologised . the prince has apologised. prince william, this is apologises for his absence at the world cup final. but but you've contrasted this with the story in the times which is talking about how prince william has embraced his his destiny. what's this all about? >> well, what's extraordinary is that you get this contrasting stories really sort of saying that it that king charles except he's a sort of caretaker looking forward to the real change when william will become king and you think the decent of charles to talk about william in this sort of rather flattering way that he's not going to be much, but he's not going to be much, but he he's just going to be the walk on before the great man arrives himself, seems arrives himself, which seems extraordinary to say for extraordinary thing to say for a king. anyway, especially king. but anyway, especially for a been so vocal in a king who's been so vocal in his long apprenticeship for the job, waiting for his injuries. oh, no, no. i'm just sort of.

i'll saying seeing william in the job. but you then think, no, wait a minute. why has this come at this precise moment? why have the the courtier has the why are the courtier has been saying this very close sources and then you contrast that with the prince william sorry for not going to australia and several reasons given one of the ones which i personally don't agree with, which is that i was worried of his carbon footprint, i don't think so. no. no. but they think the other quote this is from the mail saying it's not diplomatically sound. say sources, is this what they really mean? is that the king has not visited australia for nine years. so so he wants to make a big substantial visit to make a big substantial visit to australia and doesn't want to be upstaged by his son. >> wow. >> wow. >> would he want to be now, look, this is we're speculating. we don't know. but it seems highly likely that in fact the king wouldn't be pleased if william went. what if the lionesses win in? and there's a

great sort of wonderful oh, how marvellous . and lots of marvellous. and lots of supporters in australia for our lovely lionesses and also for prince william . and then perhaps prince william. and then perhaps next year the king arrives . not next year the king arrives. not such an exciting visit, of coui'se. >> course. >> two difficult king charles has once been upstaged in australia before or in his first visit. after his marriage to diana. i wonder if echoes of this abound. it is fascinating to see that all these things, the mechanics behind how how the royals talk to the papers, how the papers sort of show this sort of discussion in sort of hiding in plain sight. >> that's right. you think, oh, no, you're being sort of silly. you're sort of making connections that aren't there. but look back on what has but we look back on what has happenedin but we look back on what has happened in the last 20 or 30 years and we see we do see patterns here. we see them, in fact, very worried about their personal standing, worried fact, very worried about their persorwhatanding, worried fact, very worried about their persorwhat will1g, worried fact, very worried about their persorwhat will happen worried fact, very worried about their persorwhat will happen ,'orried fact, very worried about their persorwhat will happen , very,| about what will happen, very, very worried about how these royal visits will go . and the royal visits will go. and the idea that that prince william would get this perfect visit at

this time. i oh, now now we are running out of time. >> let's just jump to a quick culture war story, because graham linehan, the writer of father ted and the it crowd, lots of sitcoms, has written in the telegraph about being cancelled. yes he's written about being cancelled and the effect of, in fact, did manage to put on a little show in front of the parliament in in edinburgh. >> but it's a rather sad sort of piece about how you know, he wasn't very funny. it was great as a protest. but he wants to get back to comedy and it's rather sort of, i don't know , rather sort of, i don't know, it's sort of extraordinary to think he's fed up with protesting. he feels strongly about the trans issues, feel that , you know, that that about the trans issues, feel that, you know, that that women are being harassed and people are being harassed and people are being harassed and people are being cancelled because they're holding what he regards as perfectly ordinary views about gender and about sex. so, you know, there's a bitterness there, but also a feeling. can i just get back to my real job, which is writing jokes? it's a kind of you know, it's the cry

of the clown, isn't it? >> it is interesting, though, because the venue, of course, that that couldn't that said that he couldn't perform there point to some perform there did point to some of the things he had said of the things that he had said in the past, do seem in the past, which do seem pretty untested . well, calling pretty untested. well, calling the trans movement a movement, he said that almost every central figure in the trans movement is a that derogatory term the term for. i mean, he has been pretty out spoken on this issue in a fairly distasteful way. >> sure. and he suffered for it. i mean, because people have, as you say, those sorts of remarks have gone down very badly in the media world and in the world that he where he wants to work in comedy, he hasn't worked properly in comedy for five years. but of course, people think of the sublime series. father ted , and they're sort of father ted, and they're sort of they desperately want to forgive him. yes i mean, so no, he's not a perfect campaigner. no doubt about that . but he is almost about that. but he is almost a perfect comedy. >> just in the last really 15 seconds, i want to test your

spanish. this is something in the mail. what does inferno on laurel mean? >> well, thankfully , the mail >> well, thankfully, the mail are preparing for us me. why not win in australia , right. so i win in australia, right. so i happen to know what the. what? the inferno. come on, larry. sick as a parrot and not lo rob baron. now, this is very important. we were robbed. we were robbed. well, that's what you say. >> potentially words. we may well need to stick by. john. sergeant thank you so much for going through the papers this morning. been absolutely morning. it's been absolutely fascinating move fascinating. but let's now move on to our people's panel of course, which this week is in guildford and catherine forster are political correspondent is there, catherine, what are the panel saying today ? panel saying today? >> yes, good morning, tom, from coco cafe in sunny guildford, i'm joined by the owner, jacob. jacob, thanks so much for hosting us today. how's business at the moment? >> sorry, business is tough

because the inflation is high and the cost of the living is high. the supply, the supply increase, the prices. so it's very tough. since we opened at least two coffee shop in guildford, closed down because of the rent is high. the cost of living high and labour is high and businesses high. so it's very difficult to survive . very difficult to survive. >> you have good regulars, don't you? and very lovely cakes. let's have you'll see them in the background in a moment. let's go and meet our panel now . good morning, everybody . thank . good morning, everybody. thank you so much for giving your time this morning to talk to us on the people's panel . and lucy the people's panel. and lucy letby, obviously, the nation , letby, obviously, the nation, we've been completely horrified, haven't we, by this case? and i'll come to you first, caspar. you are a marketing manager in the food industry. you were born six and a half weeks premature . six and a half weeks premature. so this is something that especially resonates with you, isn't it? >> it does indeed. and it was a

very serious time for me . and very serious time for me. and i needed 24 hour care and so many people involved. and what was critical was trust that they were doing the right thing. in your best interest. so i'm completely horrified with the lucy letby case because she clearly wasn't monitored and these terrible tragedies happened. these terrible tragedies happened . and we need a real happened. and we need a real statutory inquiry that gets to the bottom of the issues . so the bottom of the issues. so incidents like this cannot happenin incidents like this cannot happen in the future. yes a lot of concerns from the families that this inquiry , we won't have that this inquiry, we won't have sufficient power to potentially hold hospital bosses , for hold hospital bosses, for instance, to account . instance, to account. >> thank you for that. it will be interesting to hear what sir robert buckland has to say about that and tamara, you're originally from canada. you work in the transport industry. we'll be talking to nick gibb, the schools minister, shortly . schools minister, shortly. you've got some thoughts about covid and education, haven't you? >> yes, i do. thank you. so

we're hearing in the news this week that covid cases are starting to increase again, and there's also a new variant circulate during the pandemic. i believe that closing down schools had a negative impact on schools had a negative impact on school children with their grades and also with increased social anxiety and i believe we should avoid it at all costs in the future. what is the minister doing to ensure that this won't happen again and children's futures aren't negatively impacted any further ? impacted any further? >> i think a lot of people will want an answer to that, to lockdowns massively damaging people will not want to see that happen ever again, will they? thank you for that. and finally to you, richard . you run a to you, richard. you run a software business. yes. obviously, we're talking to the former justice secretary. we're talking to the schools minister. you've got some questions for both. >> i do . so first, from an >> i do. so first, from an education perspective , our education perspective, our schools and universities seem increasingly more interested in

teaching identity politics to young people . gender theory, young people. gender theory, critical theory . how do we critical race theory. how do we pull back from that and start teaching them the subjects , the teaching them the subjects, the real that are actually real subjects that are actually going help them get on in the going to help them get on in the world out there? and secondly, from perspective, our from a legal perspective, our justice in this country justice system in this country seems to be increasingly hamstrung international hamstrung by international agreements with people like the european court of human rights, united nations , the who , many of united nations, the who, many of which were signed or some of which were signed or some of which were signed a long time ago when the world was different and a lot of which are used by politicians as excuses. and when they're something or they're asked to do something or i'd to help, but i'd love to help, but international agreement, what can we how we start to can we do? so how do we start to take control of our justice take more control of our justice system or at least update some of agreements of those agreements so they reflect today's world? >> do you think if it turns >> and do you think if it turns out that we can't send people on flights to rwanda, should the government potentially look at withdrawing the echr ? withdrawing from the echr? >> i think that's an absolute you know, could replicate the you know, we could replicate the relevant aspects in uk law and

at least have control over what we're doing. you know, rwanda is a question , but the a separate question, but the first thing in fixing any problem and have some problem and we do have some serious problems in this country is get control. that's what is to get control. that's what we do. we need to do. >> so plenty of food for thought for the politicians coming up. tom, back to you. now in the studio. be interested studio. we'll be interested to see have to say. see what they have to say. >> catherine, we of >> well, catherine, we will of course, back you once course, be back to you once we've what the politicians we've heard what the politicians have say. thank you very much have to say. thank you very much for those questions. we'll do our to put them to the our best to put them to the politicians this morning. but for john, sergeant for the meantime, john, sergeant still in the studio. still joins me in the studio. we've to breakfast we've moved up to the breakfast bar morning . that means bar this morning. that means we're doing more serious political discussion, rather flicking the papers. flicking through the papers. >> it's i want to ask you about nick gibb. >> he's a fascinating figure. he's been schooled as minister for over 2012 years. and in this government, we haven't seen many individuals stay in one job for a very long time. we've seen a host of different prime

ministers, different chancellors, different home secretaries . do you think it's secretaries. do you think it's important that there are some jobs where an individual has been there through the course when it can help? >> i mean, you get some of these jobs, whether it's prime ministers, whether so many running through prime minister , running through prime minister, and you think, wait a moment, how could they possibly be any good ? the thing is, of course, good? the thing is, of course, that when they go into a department, the civil service have worked out what they think should be going right. that many options. i mean , i think people options. i mean, i think people imagine and of course, it's part of system to build up the of the system to build up the position of the minister, to build up position, particularly the secretary state, that the secretary of state, so that they're coming in and it'll make a big change. it does. in terms of mood music does, in terms of the mood music does, in terms of the mood music does, in terms of how they get on with the senior staff. but so much has been long decided , particularly been long decided, particularly in schools policy. you don't suddenly start doing this and changing that. and think we changing that. and i think we should this . and some of the should do this. and some of the problems, course, persist , problems, of course, persist, particularly of particularly this question of attainment . you know that if

attainment. you know that if you're better off, if you go to a private school, you do much better than people in state schools so on. and every schools and so on. and every government wants to reduce that gap. but that takes a long, long time, an enormous amount of resources to even attempt to bnng resources to even attempt to bring it down a bit. >> it is interesting, however, how education policy in england, if not in scotland , wales and if not in scotland, wales and northern ireland, but in england specifically , seems to have been specifically, seems to have been going fairly well for the last 13 years. i mean there's lots to criticise about the government , criticise about the government, coalition and conservative majority conservative minorities, but in terms of international rankings on education, it seems that in english, in maths, in numerous in literacy, it seems that things have been going rather well. the gove reforms appear to have work. >> yes , i think that i think >> yes, i think that i think that's certainly true. it's very difficult to judge, of course, and the covid experience has so smashed up all the records really, because you you wonder, i know i've got grandchildren

who've been going through the system and for some of them it has been a terrible period in all sorts of ways . it's and all sorts of ways. it's and although they think, oh, they're getting okay, they're doing all right and they're brave and they don't say how sad it's been not to be at school and how difficult it has been looking at screens instead of teachers. but it's been a terrible period, i think, to be a school, to be at school at all. and almost at any level. it's been a hard time. >> no, really, really difficult. but john, thank you so much for talking through those big subjects because we're now going to turn to nick gibb, the schools minister, who i'm delighted to say can join us now down the line from westminster. nick, thank you for joining down the line from westminster. nick, thank you forjoining us nick, thank you for joining us this morning. i suppose let's kick off with your big announcement this morning. a new brit school in bradford . brit school in bradford. >> yes , brit school north >> yes, brit school north building on the success of the

brit school in south london that has produced people like adele and amy winehouse have sold 250 million albums from that school . collectively, 15 brit awards. and we want the same opportunity for talented young people in the north. this is a 16 to 19 school for 500 students in drama, in fit, in dance and singing in the technical aspects of theatre and film production. it will open in 3 or 4 years time and it's one of the first free schools that we're announcing next week as well . well. >> it's interesting that you've chosen bradford for the location of this school, given that the government has recently appeared to have rolled back from northern powerhouse rail, abandoning a stop in bradford . abandoning a stop in bradford. how come you're putting a new crucial school for the arts in a place that is not getting the sort of rail investment that was once promised ? once promised? >> there's a lot of talent in the north. we don't want young

people to have to travel to the south, but also in that part of west yorkshire we have emi north in leeds, we have a for channel leeds, we have in calderdale , a leeds, we have in calderdale, a film industry in bradford itself. we have the national museum science media , so museum of science and media, so it's good location for a new it's a good location for a new brit school . the creative brit school. the creative industries are creating £100 billion of income for our economy and we have an ambition to increase that by another £50 billion by 2030. the industry needs talent. they need those skills and they need them in the north as well as the south. so it's important that we have a brit school north located in bradford . bradford. >> i think lots of people would agree with that. people might just question if bradford should be better connected to places like liverpool and manchester and leeds. but we do. we and indeed leeds. but we do. we must move on because one of the biggest stories this weekend, of course, is the lucy letby case. and of course an independent inquiry has been committed to by the government. but there are

big questions on whether or not this should be a statutory increments , a statutory inquiry increments, a statutory inquiry . why hasn't the government been clear on this . clear on this. >> well, look, as soon as the verdict , this is an appalling, verdict, this is an appalling, horrific case of child murder . horrific case of child murder. and as soon as those verdicts were handed down on friday, the government announced that there would be a full inquiry into what happened. so the parents can understand what happened. and i've been reading in the paper today and yesterday the stories of the consultants who reported early warnings about what was happening and the inquiry will look at how those warnings, how concerns that were raised were handled by the hospital, by the trust executive . so that will be covered by . so all that will be covered by the inquiry will be announcing a chair. that inquiry very soon. and the terms of reference. so we don't yet what the terms we don't know yet what the terms of will they'll be of reference will be. they'll be announced soon, but what i announced very soon, but what i can assure you is that they will look all aspects of look at all aspects of this

right across the health service so that we can understand what happened, and happened, learn lessons and absolutely prevent anything like this from happening again . this from happening again. >> how soon will those terms of reference be announced? because the affected by this the families affected by this scandal, the families affected by this murderer, have been worried that this inquiry will be toothless, that it won't have the power , the statutory power the power, the statutory power to compel witnesses . to compel witnesses. >> well , the parents we want the >> well, the parents we want the parents to be involved in shaping this inquiry. parents to be involved in shaping this inquiry . so they shaping this inquiry. so they will be the government will be to talking the parents and their representatives to make sure that the inquiry does cover all the aspects of the concerns that they have and indeed the whole country has. so we can make sure that we learn all the lessons that we learn all the lessons that need to be learned. >> just one final time. will it have the power to compel witnesses ? witnesses? >> well, let's see what the terms of reference, the terms of reference have not been published yet. the government is working those. we've already working on those. we've already made a commitment there

made a commitment that there will the will be an inquiry. the government is now working on the terms reference. terms of reference. we're talking talking to talking we will be talking to the parents to make sure they are involved in shaping this inquiry we'll be making inquiry and we'll be making announcements both who will announcements on both who will chair and those terms of chair it and those terms of reference very soon. it does seem that there have been huge, huge failings in the hospital in the and in the nhs. the trust and in the nhs. >> will this inquiry be looking into the clear failures in managing the warning signs that were missed and indeed the life that may well have been saved and had management acted on the advice on the whistleblowing of doctors . doctors. >> yes, it will. absolutely. that's precisely what the inquiry will be covering. i've read those reports in today's paper and in yesterday's paper and they are quite shocking and that's what the inquiry really must get to, really must try and understand why warnings, why concerns that were raised, what

the governance was of the hospital about these issues. and that's precisely what the inquiry will look at so we can learn precisely what happened, learn precisely what happened, learn lessons from that, and then prevent it from happening again. >> now, i do want to move on to another huge issue that our audience massively cares about and that is the small boats crash because this week we learned that since rishi sunak became prime minister, the number illegally arriving on the shores of the united kingdom by small boat, has risen to 25,000 just during rishi sunak's short time as prime minister the government's failing here, isn't it ? it? >> well, the prime minister came into office in october. he's given one of his top five pledges. is to tackle the small boats issue this current year at year to date we are 15. there are 15% fewer small boats crossings than there were at this time last year. there's clearly more to do. we've

negotiated with the leadership of the prime minister deals with france, with albania , with france, with albania, with turkey, to get the intelligence to understand what's happening to understand what's happening to so we can tackle it at the root. we pass the illegal migration bill and that gives the power now that now that that bill is in statute, it means that anybody arriving in this country illegally cannot have residency here. so anybody arriving on boats now will be sent back to where they came from or to a third party. safe countries such as rwanda. so we are the prime minister. this is are the prime minister. this is a top priority for the prime minister and actually we are achieving some success. but there's clearly a lot more to do. and that's and that's what's the top most of the prime minister's agenda and the government's agenda at the moment. >> well, it seems that the flagship element of the government's plan on small boats, the rwanda plan, is stuck in the courts. we're not going to have an answer on this for a

very long time. this is leading some of your colleagues, indeed some of your colleagues, indeed some very high profile candidates to be conservative mps at the next election . it's mps at the next election. it's leading them to say that britain should leave the echr . what's should leave the echr. what's the government's position on that ? that? >> well, look, we have to wait for the verdict of the supreme court. we are confident that rwanda , in process will work, rwanda, in process will work, but we have to be we have to wait for the judgement of the supreme court on this matter. we passed the illegal migration act because you have to deal with the incentives of people wanting to make that very dangerous crossing. people are drowning in the channel. they are children are drowning in the channel we cannot for humanitarian reasons, allow these people smugglers to continue their evil trade , continue their evil trade, preying on people's desire to get to this country . so we have get to this country. so we have to make it clear that if you

come via that route or any illegal route, you will not be able to seek asylum in this country. you will be detained on arrival and then sent back to the country from which they came or to a third party safe. countries such as rwanda. that's the policy . the part the act has the policy. the part the act has been through . parliament, by the been through. parliament, by the way, opposed by the liberal democrats and the labour party . democrats and the labour party. but that is the policy i believe it will work. we just now need to wait for the outcome of the supreme court decision. >> well, nick gibb , thank you >> well, nick gibb, thank you very much for your time this morning. it's a pleasure to speak to you and thank you for your candid responses to those questions, too. well, in just a moment, i'll be speaking to the former justice secretary, sir robert buckland. what's his view on how things can change in our court system? should lucy letby be forced to attend her sentencing ? all of that after sentencing? all of that after the news headlines . well .

the news headlines. well. tom, thank you. >> good morning from the gb newsroom. it's 10:00. >> good morning from the gb newsroom. it's10:oo. i'm tamsin roberts . newsroom. it's10:oo. i'm tamsin roberts. england's women's team is on the brink of history. the lionesses about to take on spain in the world cup final. well this is the scene in sydney where fans are gathering for the big game, which kicks off in just under an hour. sarina wiegman side is looking to win the for competition the first time. england hasn't lifted the cup since the men claimed victory in 1966. well king charles has told the lionesses to roar to victory and the prime minister says the whole nation is rooting for them . former is rooting for them. former referee jane frampton says it will be a close match. but england has the edge . england has the edge. >> there's a huge difference between your technical ability and your mental strength , and and your mental strength, and thatis and your mental strength, and that is what i think is going to win the game for us today. and

i've not seen that, not in any of our squads before . the girls of our squads before. the girls showed some of it in the euros. and as this tournament's building , they've shown it game building, they've shown it game on game and they are phenomenal . the british medical association is calling for hospital managers to be regulated in a similar way to medical staff . medical staff. >> the call comes in the wake of lucy levy's conviction. the bma says it's deeply worrying that consultants who repeatedly raise concerns about the former nurse weren't listened to . letby was weren't listened to. letby was found guilty of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of six others. she'll be sentenced tomorrow . a 50 year sentenced tomorrow. a 50 year old man will appear in court tomorrow following the major police data breach in northern ireland. he's been charged with possessing documents likely to be useful to terrorists. it's after the details of 10,000 officers and staff were published online by mistake. police believe the information

is now in the hands of dissident republicans . a new british republicans. a new british school is set to open in bradford in west yorkshire. the government has confirmed it'll be based on the award winning performing arts brit school in south london. it helped launch the careers of some of britain's best known artists and actors , best known artists and actors, including adele, amy winehouse and tom holland. the new school is set to open by 2027. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now though, it's back to . tom back to. tom >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now, as you might have noticed, i'm not camilla tominey. i'm tom harwood and i'm covering for camilla while she takes a very well deserved holiday. but don't go anywhere . holiday. but don't go anywhere. in just a minute will be speaking to the former justice

secretary, butler . secretary, sir robert butler. and i want to get his view on what might need to change in the court system. it's frankly disgraceful to many that lucy letby may well avoid being at her own sentencing . should her own sentencing. should killers be forced to be there to hear their own sentencing? some big question there. i'll also get the very latest on the war in ukraine and how it affects us here in britain with my gb news colleague and the former defence secretary, michael portillo . secretary, michael portillo. after that, we'll be speaking to one of the uk's richer men, the businessman john caldwell. now he's been a big donor to the conservatives in the past, but are they doing enough to support business now? could he be tempted by the wooing words of sir keir starmer's labour party 7 sir keir starmer's labour party ? big questions and shifting sands. i'll also be speaking to the man who was the head of the professional standards area for the australian government's

offshore processing scheme in nauru. now could the uk learn lessons and perhaps even introduce a similar scheme? really big questions , big guests really big questions, big guests and interesting conversations to come up over the next hour. but let's begin now with sir robert buckland , the former justice buckland, the former justice secretary and conservative mp for south swindon. sir robert, thank you so much for joining for south swindon. sir robert, thank you so much forjoining us this morning on the programme. i suppose we must kick off with the just just astounding news in this lucy letby case. the government seems to be unclear on the terms of reference for this inquiry , this promised this inquiry, this promised inquiry. the government's committed to an inquiry, but i was speaking to nick gibb just moments ago . he wouldn't say moments ago. he wouldn't say that the government should have full statutory powers to compel witnesses . why is the government witnesses. why is the government being ambiguous here?

>> well, i think that it's really important that any inquiry has the requisite powers to ensure that all material is brought before it in all appropriate witnesses are brought before we know that inquiries under the 2005 act have that power . and it does have that power. and it does seem to me in a case like this that in order to establish maximum confidence , then giving maximum confidence, then giving the inquiry, those powers would, i think, be a wise thing to do. now, it doesn't need to be necessary a judge chairing it. i think it needs to be somebody who has experience of the management of a lot of information. could even be somebody with clinical clinical background. but it's got to be somebody who has independence , a somebody who has independence, a strong reputation. and the ability to make sure that all documents are before them. i'm trying to think why the government might not be committing at this stage to a statutory inquiry . statutory inquiry. >> one argument could be that it's just slower to get off the

ground . it would need to be ground. it would need to be passed. perhaps by by mps. that would that would slow things down. do you think that might be factoring into their considerations ? considerations? >> well well , statutory >> well well, statutory inquiries do take a little longer to set up. and if a judge is to be appointed, then the government has to consult with is to be appointed, then the gov senior1t has to consult with is to be appointed, then the gov senior judiciary consult with is to be appointed, then the gov senior judiciary ,onsult with is to be appointed, then the gov senior judiciary , in;ult with the senior judiciary, in particular the the seniorjudiciary, in particular the lord chief justice, before , for example, justice, before, for example, a serving judge or indeed a retired judge can be approached. and therefore, these things do take time. but as i've said, i don't think necessarily needs don't think it necessarily needs to judge . it needs to be to be a judge. it needs to be somebody with that requisite experience. and very often somebody , you know, senior somebody, you know, a senior clinician somebody with clinician or somebody with a health be an health background could be an appropriate person as long as they have the ability to manage all the detail , facts and all the detail, facts and documents. in this case. and crucially, that ability to summon for documents and witnesses , it is astonishing witnesses, it is astonishing that in the last 30 years or so, we've now seen three cases within the nhs of healthcare professionals. >> more murdering their patients

. we saw the angel of death , . we saw the angel of death, beverley allitt in the early 1990s. we of course saw harold shipman as well, who was who was found out and sentenced in the year 2000. and i believe . and year 2000. and i believe. and now of course we have lucy letby. it seems that there's almost a pattern of behaviour here and lessons that have not been learned . been learned. >> well, look, tom, i think it's really important that we all remember that the vast majority of professions within the nhs andindeed of professions within the nhs and indeed everybody working there do a superb job for us all and it is tragic and appalling that where one person like letby and the ones you've mentioned is able to have such of an autonomy, if you like it, you know, a control over situations that then, you know, murder and mayhem can ensue . i think from mayhem can ensue. i think from what we're seeing , the emerging what we're seeing, the emerging reports about this case do reveal that a number of

professionals had deep concerns and there were clearly complaint procedures and a number of processes that were undertake within the nhs prior to the arrest of letby . and that arrest of letby. and that clearly has to be the focus now of the inquiry to understand precisely what went wrong, why it is that people who were blowing the whistle don't seem to have been properly listened to. and as you say , to get this to. and as you say, to get this cultural change that we need, i think instead of an nhs that is unduly defensive about everything, bearing in mind the risk of litigation and damages, which we know medical negligence, clinical negligence damages are running to the billions of pounds much more of a sort of black box approach to response ability, which we see, for example, in the airline industry, where where mistakes , industry, where where mistakes, where things go wrong instead of a finger pointing culture. it's an openness and a belief and a dedication to try and make sure

that those mistakes are not repeated again. and i think it's increasingly that approach that we need to foster and encourage in the nhs supporting conditions, supporting all our caring staff, but at the same time acting truly in the public interest . interest. >> right now we're hearing from the government that killers will be compelled to attend their sentencing . that's something sentencing. that's something that we're expecting now in the king's speech in the autumn , but king's speech in the autumn, but that's several months away . is that's several months away. is there anything that could be done to force lucy letby to attend her own sentencing for , attend her own sentencing for, as we understand it right now, she's intent not to? >> well, i know i think, sadly, the court's hands are tied at the court's hands are tied at the moment. i mean, my suggestion have been to make sure that there was a live link beamed into the cell, either sound or sound and pictures to ensure that letby had nowhere to hide and that she, in effect, has to listen to what the judge is saying about the case. and

most importantly , the victim. most importantly, the victim. personal statement , those impact personal statement, those impact statements that will really bnng statements that will really bring home, i think , to the bring home, i think, to the wider world, the appalling, devastating impact of the loss of these innocent children, these innocent babies have had upon dozens of families . and upon dozens of families. and thatis upon dozens of families. and that is why i think the government is right to act. there are a couple of options . i there are a couple of options. i hear indeed, about proposals for the king's speech in november. there's a bill currently before parliament victims bill that perhaps could be amended by the government as it goes through the commons. it's still in the commons stages. legislation takes you know, tom, i've takes time. you know, tom, i've deau takes time. you know, tom, i've dealt with a lot of legislation myself it through myself and got it through parliament. does many parliament. it does take many months, glad to see the months, but i'm glad to see the government taking the government is taking the necessary action and trying to strike the balance between stopping, you know, the compulsion of the defendant becoming the centrepiece of attention, but making sure that defendants are being made to face the consequence of their appalling crimes.

>> i think beaming that sentencing into her cell and perhaps having having a camera in that cell sounds like an excellent suggestion . i hope excellent suggestion. i hope people are listening to those suggestions from you, sir robert. but let's move on now to the issue of the echr. this is something that that dare i say, it is providing a dividing line within the conservative party . within the conservative party. we hear that a third of cabinet want out and two thirds want to stay in the government itself seems to have this peculiar position that it hasn't made up its mind on this issue until the rwanda ruling comes back. perhaps not until the end of the year , because your party's in year, because your party's in a mess over this . mess over this. >> look, i think the vast majority of conservative mps support our continuing membership of the convention. it was british conservative lawyers who wrote it with the express support of sir winston churchill . we should be very proud of our role in being one of the

guarantor of peace and freedom and fundamental rights in europe . this is all about, you know, i think the not just the history, but the future of our party as well in making sure that we are outward looking, that we understand the impact that withdrawal would have upon our role in the world and how people perceive the united kingdom and i think that leaving the echr would be a grave mistake. it's not serious politics, tom. you know, i still don't follow precisely what leaving the echr would do when it comes to things like the rwanda policy. the court of appeal didn't say that sending people to a third country was unlawful or in breach of the echr what they wanted was more evidence that rwanda was a safe country. now we define safe country in domestic law . the lord chief domestic law. the lord chief justice thought that the government had provided enough evidence. the other two judges disagree. that's what the issue boils down to. now and that's what i think we should all be

focusing upon. i support the policy , absolutely support it. policy, absolutely support it. but i don't think that debates about the help anybody some massive red herring and we should move on and focus on what's important when it comes to this vital issue of small boats. >> was it not the case that those individuals who were sitting on that plane, that original plane, that was ready to take off to rwanda, who were then taken off the plane one by one, that was under the view that was under rulings from the echr. echn >> well, that was an interim order under what's called rule 39. it's only an interim order when you look at the terms of the treaty 40 that we signed the convention, the united kingdom is bound by final judgements of the court affecting the uk . you the court affecting the uk. you know, tom, the number of judgements every year involving the uk is tiny. it's on the hands on the fingers of one hand as opposed to say, you know, russia, formerly a member which was being phoned in breach hundreds of times, as you would

expect , a regime like hundreds of times, as you would expect, a regime like putin's to be found in breach. i really think that, you know, there's a world of difference between the strasbourg court and its role. and the role that the luxembourg court had when we were members of the eu that clearly had a direct effect upon the applicability of law in the uk. totally different roles. i think the best way forward for the uk is to continue being a strong voice for further reform. we did it ten or so years ago by deaung it ten or so years ago by dealing with the backlog of cases and we can do it again. and i think that, you know, talk about leaving just diminishes the leading role that our country has played, particularly in light of the importance of unity in the face of putin's aggression in ukraine. i can't think of a worse time for an issue like this to be raised and that's why i think we should put the issue firmly back in the box, focus upon the practicalities and support the prime minister on his initiatives with albania and indeed, i hope with turkey and other countries that i think

will really have an effect upon the small boats crisis . the small boats crisis. >> well, sir robert, you certainly have strong views there. there are plenty of your colleagues the colleagues who would say the opposite . i fear that for your opposite. i fear that for your sake, the boks may not. well, the issue mean will not be put back in that box over the next year or so. we'll continue to follow it, though. and thank you so much for your time this morning on the camilla tominey show. really appreciate it, sir. robert buckland, the former justice secretary, of course. well listening to all of that was our very own michael port tilo. and michael, before we get into talking about ukraine with you , of course, with your former you, of course, with your former defence secretary hat on, i do want to talk about the clear splits in the conservative party over this issue of the echr. so robert buckland , such an robert buckland, such an eloquent defender of it as he set out there. but of course there are other people, there are a third of the cabinet. we're led to believe. do you think we should leave it ?

think we should leave it? >> yes. good morning, yeah, >> yes. good morning, tom. yeah, the conservatives are undoubtedly very badly split over and think robert over this. and i think robert buckland you a lot buckland told you a lot of things true, that, for things that are true, that, for example, many cases the issue example, in many cases the issue is the but you is not the echr, but you responded correctly, that in some it is . he had this some cases it is. he had this phrase about serious people don't want to leave the uk and i think it's one of these cases where there is a kind of very strong establishment view and those who are pushing against it are regarded, as it were, the usual suspects on the backbenches, although as you say, they also range into the cabinet. my view is that the government would be extremely reluctant to leave the echr i think largely because they don't want to undermine our relationship with the european union anymore. >> it's important to note that these are two separate, which are completely from the eu. but but some agreements but sort of some bar agreements with european union make with the european union make reference echr . reference to the echr. >> and so we'd be looking at undoing some of those arrangements. think if the arrangements. and i think if the government a series government has a series of problems the northern problems, it's the northern ireland protocol and the boats

in in both of those cases, a lot of people suspect that what we're suffering from is revenge from the union over from the european union over brexit. i think the cabinet brexit. so i think the cabinet will be pretty reluctant to reopen the issue . the one thing reopen the issue. the one thing that might happen is that if the government believes it's going to lose the election anyway, it might put pledge in the might put the pledge in the manifesto that would manifesto thinking that it would never have to implement. >> it might as well shore up some not it some votes and not win it is interesting, idea interesting, though, the idea that the european union is sort of punishing britain brexit. of punishing britain for brexit. it's something that has been of punishing britain for brexit. it's sonup1ing that has been of punishing britain for brexit. it's sonup ing that has been of punishing britain for brexit. it's sonup in the at has been of punishing britain for brexit. it's sonup in the daily; been of punishing britain for brexit. it's sonup in the daily express written up in the daily express today. the former head of the border force. is that why we don't have a return agreement with or the eu as with france or the eu as a whole? do you think? >> mean, we all say that >> well, i mean, we all say that we could break the model of the people smugglers if coming across the channel were not successful for the migrants. well the easiest way of not being successful to being successful would to be return so, mean, of return them. so, i mean, of course, the whole business could be tomorrow if we be closed down tomorrow if we could people back to could simply send people back to their place of origin, which would france or belgium or would be france or belgium or wherever terribly unsafe

wherever those terribly unsafe businesses. i mean, businesses. yes. so, i mean, clearly, belgium clearly, if france and belgium and wanted to and the european union wanted to help wanted to close the help and wanted to close the issue could. so i issue down, they could. so i think quite difficult to think it's quite difficult to avoid the impression that we are being punished, least, being punished, or at least, i suppose, from their point of view, they'd say, look, this is a european problem and just a european wide problem and just because european because you've left the european union that you can union doesn't mean that you can be not to participate in be allowed not to participate in a wide problem. so that a european wide problem. so that would charitable would be the more charitable way of it comes down of putting it. but it comes down to same thing really. to the same thing really. >> well, to ukraine now, we've heard in the last big, big heard in the last week big, big news states has news that the united states has finally said it will allow these f—16 incredibly f—16 aircraft, the incredibly fast, incredibly agile, very modern aircraft to be sent to kyiv. will this change anything? >> they're not particularly modern, but they may be better than than ex—soviet stock . it's than than ex—soviet stock. it's going to be a while before they get there because the crews have to be trained to use them. so probably not until the winter. they will certainly make a difference because they're a very capable piece of armament

and the ukrainians have done extraordinarily well without having air superiority and indeed having absolute air inferiority. so they will make a difference. what kind of a difference? it's difficult to say. by that i mean that the winter will not be a good period for the ukrainian counteroffensive . the ukrainian counteroffensive. the ukrainian counteroffensive. the ukrainian counteroffensive appears to be broadly stalled and the war at the moment is going in different directions. as you know, the firing of drones at ships, the firing of drones at ships, the firing of drones at ships, the firing of drones at moscow, possibly from russian territory, which is a kind of psychological operation, i think, as much as anything . so, yes, they'll make anything. so, yes, they'll make anything. so, yes, they'll make a difference in due course. of course, the ukrainians will very much feel that this is that this is coming very late. and think is coming very late. and i think it coming late because it is coming very late because i think key factor in the think the key factor in the ukrainian is actually, ukrainian question is actually, is going to become is trump going to become president? and everybody is kind of and hurrying before of scurrying and hurrying before that possibility looms into view. >> it is interesting because currently the battle lines in ukraine and in many places, it sort of dug into trench warfare

almost , but sort of dug into trench warfare almost, but it's sort of dug into trench warfare almost , but it's been static , almost, but it's been static, more or less static, inching backwards and forwards a little bit. but for many months now, is that perhaps why the chief of staff to the nato secretary—general, jens stoltenberg , has said that stoltenberg, has said that ukraine might have to cede territory to russia in order to find a peace agreement? >> it was a thoroughly irresponsible comment that man should not have been saying anything of the sort and the position the allies should be that here is a country that has been violated by russia and it has every right to seek with our support, not our armed intervention, but with our support to regain all the territory , which is its by territory, which is its by international law. and there should be no no commentary around that subject. you're an analogy of the great war. i think is very apt. i mean, one of the problems with the offensive is that because the russians are so well dug in that they have very effective minefields, that the rate of attrition on the ukrainians is,

i think, too high. and in the end, numbers count. you know, russia has three times the population of ukraine and russians have a different attitude to throwing men into into into the mince, into the mincer. so that's one of the reasons i think, you know, ukraine has to be very careful about what level of casualty it sustains. >> well, we've seen it in the history of russia as well. stalingrad i suppose, is the is the example of just sort of sending hundreds of thousands of men to die with with zero regard for them. i one but with success, but with success. i wonder what sort of message does it send from the heart of nato that if an aggressor can invade a country , oh, we can find a country, oh, we can find peace.if a country, oh, we can find peace. if people just accept half of that invasion ? half of that invasion? >> well, if you go back to historic analogies, it's like it's like munich, isn't it? it's you know, chopping up other people's territory for them. it's not something that goes down well. and there's a lesson that we should have learned. we've been talking about lessons learned, lessons not learned. we

shouldn't about shouldn't be talking about chopping people's territory. >> you cannot reason with a tiger when is in its tiger when your head is in its mouth. correct. michael what do you coming on your you have coming up on your program? we will be program? well we will be discussing of whether discussing the issue of whether pubuc discussing the issue of whether public servants ever bear responsibility for anything . responsibility for anything. >> we're also looking at the fact that apparently you're ten times more likely as a civil servant die in office than to servant to die in office than to be sacked. and very few civil servants performance servants have performance reviews . i'm talking to sunetra reviews. i'm talking to sunetra gupta about the damage that was done to children during covid and why the public inquiry doesn't seem to be looking at that. and we've got a couple of lighter things. we've got tim rice in talk us rice coming in to talk to us about snow white. oh it sounds absolutely about snow white. oh it sounds abs fromly about snow white. oh it sounds absfrom 11:00 here on gbs, >> from 11:00 here on gbs, michael, we will be watching. thank you very much for all of those those views and analysis even. let's return now to guildford, where catherine forster, our political correspondent is with the people's panel . catherine, what people's panel. catherine, what of the people of guildford made

of the people of guildford made of what's been on the programme so far ? so far? >> hello , tom, and welcome back >> hello, tom, and welcome back to the cocoa cafe in guildford. we've been listening with great interest to what the politicians had to say . let's start with had to say. let's start with lucy letby, shall we? caspar as we were saying before, you were born prematurely, what you told me subsequently was you actually had the last rites read to you when you were ten days old. they didn't expect you to survive . didn't expect you to survive. you were wanting to hear from the politicians and will hospital bosses will those responsible for failings in listening to the warnings be held accountable ? and if you held accountable? and if you don't, how do you get real change? were you reassured by what you heard from the politicians ? politicians? >> it was vague, and my plea to them is to flip it. imagine you were the parent of that child who had died or became very

seriously ill. you've got to focus on the end result . you've focus on the end result. you've got to focus on delivering change, change, and nothing else will satisfy them. nothing at all. >> yes . nick all. >> yes. nick gibb didn't give a specific answer, did he ? as to specific answer, did he? as to whether hospital bosses would be forced to come and give evidence that was very noticeable, wasn't it ? now? sir robert buckland it? now? sir robert buckland made a suggestion that, as lucy letby has said, she's not going to come out of her cell for the sentencing, that perhaps they could put a camera in the cell so that people or the families specifically would be able to see her. caspar do you think that might be a good idea? >> it's completely wrong not to be in the court. >> it's completely wrong not to be in the court . you've got to be in the court. you've got to stand up and be told what you've done and the consequences of what you've done. it's cowardice. if you stay in your cell . cell. >> yes . and tamara , we've been >> yes. and tamara, we've been

heanng >> yes. and tamara, we've been hearing about small boats, about the echr. et cetera . so robert the echr. et cetera. so robert buckland was saying that he thinks leaving the echr is a red herring . how do you think we can herring. how do you think we can stop the boats? and do you have any faith in rishi sunak for doing it? it was one of his five pledges. he's not getting very far at the moment, is he? >> i think the issue is nothing seems to work to date. at the moment, nothing seems to be deterring the criminal gangs. even yesterday it was reported that they launched the small boats in the direct path of storm betty. that suggests to me that they're really not going to stop at anything. and i think to address the issue more is going to have to be done in france to reduce the numbers going into small boats in the channel >> thank you. thank you for that . and richard, what did you think? you asked a couple of questions. what did you think of the answers to the topics today that were forthcoming from nick gibbon? sir robert buckland there was an awful lot of

procrastination, wasn't there? >> an awful lot of wait and see? well, it's working its way through the legal system. we don't and the whole don't know. and even the whole echr thing, even in some echr thing, even if in some cases it doesn't present a technical obstacle, it just seems to be dangled as a kind of bogeyman and an excuse. so i think we all understand that government machinery does grind slowly , but we need to keep on slowly, but we need to keep on them and make sure we do get answers to these things . answers to these things. >> yes, indeed. and also reducing the pull factors. the reason that people coming in the first place, there's apparently a bit of a row going on in the home office at the moment between suella braverman and the immigration minister, robert jenrick . it's difficult, isn't jenrick. it's difficult, isn't it? but rishi sunak has made it one of his five pledges. you are all have been historic conservative voters. the election's a year, maybe a year and a better way would you vote? do you see yourself voting for rishi sunak and the

conservatives? >> next time i'd vote if honesty . if ever there was a time for a new political party that just steps outside this totally broken framework, we have a really how long could you talk about this for the whole to me the whole is it labour? is it conservative? is just theatre? both of them are going to follow broadly the same policies, some in slightly different broadly the same policies, some in slightly butarent will. this directions, but they will. this whole has just got so whole system has just got so complex and mired in bureaucracy and . you need someone to and mud. you need someone to come along and stand up and be willing to just represent british values , british culture british values, british culture and rebuild things from the ground up. >> lots of people disillusioned with both the main parties at the moment aren't there and caspan the moment aren't there and caspar, you vote caspar, would you vote conservative, do you think? >> reluctantly , because it's >> reluctantly, because it's fear of the alternatives ? fear of the alternatives? >> goodness, that's a very bleak assessment. and tomorrow, lastly to you , how do you think you to you, how do you think you might vote ? might vote? >> i'm a reluctant conservative voter at the moment as well. i

think the jury's still out. i'm going to see how rishi performs in the next year or so and then make my decision closer to the election. thank you for that. >> so a huge mountain for rishi sunak to climb if he's to have it. any chance of winning the next election. but that's it from cafe in guildford. from coco's cafe in guildford. back you in studio, tom. back to you in the studio, tom. >> well, catherine, thank you so much really much for that. really interesting see how perhaps interesting to see how perhaps that's representative three voters who voted conservative at the last election. now, two of them maybe might vote again conservative. one of them doesn't really think that he will. perhaps that's the mountain that rishi sunak has to climb. well, if you want to join the people's panel on a future edition of the camilla tominey show, do get in touch with us. the address to look at is gb news.com slash panel. that's gb news.com slash panel. that's gb news.com slash panel. but much more to come up on the show. don't go anywhere. in just a moment , i'll don't go anywhere. in just a moment, i'll be speaking to one of the united kingdom's richest

men, businessmen and philanthropist, john caldwell. he's donated to the tory party in the past. what does he make of them now? and their approach to business? i'll be back with you after the weather . you after the weather. >> that warm feeling inside head from boxed bowyer's proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello, i am dan stroud and this is your latest gb news forecast from the met office . so forecast from the met office. so a bit of a misty start for some of us this morning. that's thanks largely to an area of high pressure to the south of the country, further to the north, we do have low pressure and that is driving showers in across some north and western parts of the country. 1 or 2 of those showers locally heavy, largely dry, is decent . sunny largely dry, is decent. sunny spells the further south and east you are. and we've generally lighter winds than we saw on saturday. it will feel

relatively pleasant out there with temperatures rise going into the mid 20s across the extreme south and east. further to the north, temperatures closer to the average for the time of year . so showers tending time of year. so showers tending to peter out across england and wales overnight . further to the wales overnight. further to the north and west, we do see thicker cloud and showery outbreaks of rain starting to pushin outbreaks of rain starting to push in and with clear skies across the south, those temperatures dipping low enough for some mist and fog patches to form during the early hours of monday morning . so it's a bit of monday morning. so it's a bit of a bit of a misty, foggy start for some of us in the extreme south and east on monday. but that cloud will quickly burn off further to the north. we do have thicker cloud with outbreaks of rain pushing slowly eastwards . rain pushing slowly eastwards. temperatures generally around average for the time of year, especially across the north. further to the south, we are looking at temperatures again, similar to saturday's . that warm similar to saturday's. that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers

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gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now we may well be mid recess. we may well be high august and what is normally termed as the silly season in political news. but it doesn't seem so silly at the moment.

this show has been covering some of the biggest and indeed most serious issues facing the country. we've seen the government obfuscate over whether or not the inquiry into the lucy letby affair will have full statutory powers. we've looked into a simmering civil war in the conservative party over membership of the echr that doesn't look like it's going away any time soon. we've even covered what the government want us to talk about, which is their a new announcement of a new brit school in bradford , although school in bradford, although they seem to have dodged the question of a new rail link to bradford, which liz truss promised, and rishi sunak ditched. it's been a fascinating programme so far, but let's get diving right back in to the action because john caldwell, the businessman, the founder of phones for you , the phones for you, the philanthropist who has donated to the conservative party in the past, joins us now. and john,

thank you so much for your time this morning. really appreciate it. first of all, i want to ask. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> what inspired you to donate half £1 million to boris johnson's conservative party just before the 2019 general election ? election? >> the inspiration wasn't an inspiration. it was more to do with dreading corbyn at mcdonnell getting into power and the consequences for britain . the consequences for britain. you know, they they had a very , you know, they they had a very, very weird policy of bashing rich people. and if you want rich people. and if you want rich people. and if you want rich people to stay in the uk, you should encourage them . that you should encourage them. that doesn't mean pay less tax . it doesn't mean pay less tax. it means encourage them and make them feel wanted, not insult them, and then try and take the money off them as well. you know, we need we need to woo rich people and give them an incentive stay , but not a incentive to stay, but not a financial one. and incentive to stay and help the economy. >> it reminds me of the old peter mandelson line that new labouris peter mandelson line that new labour is intensely relaxed

about people becoming filthy rich. as long as they pay their taxes.i rich. as long as they pay their taxes. i suppose that's where most people in britain sit. and i wonder, john, how do you view the labour party's transformation over the last few years? you did donate to the conservatives under boris johnson . are you feeling more johnson. are you feeling more attracted to sir keir starmer as labour party now ? labour party now? >> well , i labour party now? >> well, i think labour party now? >> well , i think they've done labour party now? >> well, i think they've done an awful lot. i think six years, done a lot to try and clean up the labour party to get rid of anti—semitism and to do a lot to improve the electability of the labour party. but i think more than anything, as we all know, the conservatives done a lot to really disenfranchise the electorate. and that's the bigger problem. we haven't done enough to grow britain . we enough to grow britain. we should have done so much more . should have done so much more. so i was campaigning with with the conservative party for quite some time . i termed it pandemic

some time. i termed it pandemic recovery to invest in the economy and to make sure that as a consequence that we were all better off. >> i wonder we were listening to the people's panel in guildford a little bit earlier on this programme and the general view of the voters that we were talking to was that both major parties seem to be incredibly similar when it came to policy are john, i, i wonder if we just going to establish a better connection with you. john caldwell we'll let our tech gurus establish that connection with you and get back to this conversation . much, much more conversation. much, much more interest to come. and indeed a look to the future of the united kingdom economy after these messages .

company right through until 7:00 this evening. news the people . this evening. news the people. channel welcome back to the camila tominey program. >> now the former head of professional standards for the australian government's offshore processing scheme in nauru is a man named oliver lawrence and he joins me now in the studio. and oliver, thank you so much for coming in because i think a lot of people are absolutely fascinated with australian policy . what was known as policy. what was known as operation sovereign borders under tony abbott . first of all, under tony abbott. first of all, can you just explain what was your role in how that and how

that policy was delivered? yes. >> and my role in essence was to support asylum seekers and refugees with complaints they made about the system we had in place. so nauru was a very complex facility with a lot of infrastructure and we had a lot of australian there from of australian expats there from broad wilson security of australian expats there from broaaustralian wilson security of australian expats there from broaaustralian border] security of australian expats there from broaaustralian border forceirity and australian border force looking the care, the looking after the care, the safety of asylum safety and security of asylum seekers and refugees. and my job was to respond complaints was to respond to complaints they had and implement they had and to implement additional policies where we thought we needed to provide additional care support. and additional care and support. and ultimately did things additional care and support. and ultimathold did things additional care and support. and ultimathold our did things additional care and support. and ultimathold our staffhings accountable. >> now, it's a fascinating case study because when tony abbott became prime minister of australia in 2013, he said he wanted to stop the boats. it was one of his big election slogans and policy was turn back and his policy was turn back against what some people would say international law to say was international law to international condemnation. he turned boats backed, tugged them back to nauru, but i suppose there was a lot more to it than simply turning back the boats. >> hugely . it was a very complex >> hugely. it was a very complex policy in terms of 2013, came in with a primary mandate to turn

back the boats and stop them. we were losing people at sea and nobody wants to see men, women and children dying in the oceans off the australian coast. so this policy came 2013. this policy came in 2013. operation sovereign borders. we established manus established nauru and manus island is of the processing island is two of the processing centres the message centres and the message was quite you want to make quite clear if you want to make a on a boat to australia a trip on a boat to australia and enter illegally, you and try to enter illegally, you will never get to arrive into australia. you'll be sent to either and manus island either nauru and manus island where claims then be where your claims will then be processed. will never processed. but you will never make it was make australian sure it was incredibly complex. the infrastructure that was placed into those remote areas was into both those remote areas was into both those remote areas was in the billions. into both those remote areas was in the billions . and then top in the billions. and then on top of that got the staff and of that you've got the staff and the specialists supporting people with both medical concerns. you've then got the infrastructure behind education and social and welfare of these people because we you know, we have to remember there are hundreds millions of hundreds of millions of displaced the displaced people around the world. recognised world. australia recognised that. wanted that. but equally they wanted people through people to come through a legitimate in legitimate lawful process in terms through terms of applying through a third country. so these third party country. so these enormous that were enormous facilities that were established outside of mainland

australian territory , how many australian territory, how many billions of australian dollars are we talking and what sort of infrastructure was was running there? so it was billions and billions. it was a huge commitment by the australian government to make sure the policy was effective and ultimately it worked. stopped ultimately it worked. it stopped the boats . and so were you the boats. and so were you looking sort of various looking at sort of various different support different centres to support different centres to support different cohorts, single adult females , family, single adult females, family, single adult males, every thing was covered to make sure people's needs and expectations were met. and ultimately then you'd have a rotation of staff that would come off the island to come in and off the island to make sure that care and support was provided. 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a yeah seven days a week, 365 days a year. i had worked year. and i had never worked with remote, highly with so many remote, highly talented individuals supporting people from very, people who'd come from very, very distressing backgrounds . very distressing backgrounds. >> have been complaints >> there have been complaints about the conditions in these facilities . there have been many facilities. there have been many news stories that some of the conditions were not up to scratch, that there was illness, that all sorts of perhaps unpalatable things. was that was

that your experience? >> no. you know, when you're whenever you're implementing a policy of that size and scale and that complexity, there's always going to be problems along way. there's no along the way. there's no denying all. were denying that at all. there were incidents of public disorder. people were with the people were frustrated with the system, with the system, frustrated with the process. so what we found is by having an open system , people having an open system, people could and go from these could come and go from these centres they centres as they please. they weren't prisons, were weren't prisons, they were provided with incredible accommodation. they often wouldn't allow our staff to go accommodation. they often wcandl't allow our staff to go accommodation. they often wc and tend ow our staff to go accommodation. they often wcand tend to our staff to go accommodation. they often wc and tend to themtaff to go accommodation. they often wcand tend to them andto go accommodation. they often wcand tend to them and support in and tend to them and support them obviously those them because obviously those that really against the that were really against the policy wanted to make sure that they could get the images which would be graphic enough to demonstrate this was bad. demonstrate that this was bad. and was was not in and it was it was it was not in the interests of these individuals was totally individuals when it was totally the opposite. >> it's interesting, though, because just about the because it wasn't just about the idea of turning back the boats. these are processing facilities . and i suppose some of those who through processing who went through the processing facilities determined to be facilities were determined to be genuine . what lessons genuine refugees. what lessons do we have to learn from that? >> key to the australian >> the key to the australian policy with a seven several

different segments , it was different segments, it was understanding that we needed a deterrent, otherwise people were going to continue to arrive into australia . people then australia. people then needed a lawful route to go through to be able come to australia, apply able to come to australia, apply like other do terms of like other people do in terms of immigration. one job immigration. the number one job of is to protect its of government is to protect its borders. we fundamentally borders. if we fundamentally can't are in can't get that right, we are in a serious pickle and the british government has been grappling with couple of years with this for a couple of years . then you've got the piece . and then you've got the piece around enforcement and the around the enforcement and the investigation of the people smugglers. the smugglers. that is where the efforts focussed so efforts need to be focussed so that trade stops, so that if that the trade stops, so that if people can see that it's going to ineffective in getting on to be ineffective in getting on a generally fit a boat which isn't generally fit for purpose overcrowded, for purpose, overcrowded, not enough , life jackets, enough life, life jackets, etcetera, it's very dangerous. so the messaging was very clear to not did we have this to not only did we have this term about the boat policy and we had nauru and manus island, we had nauru and manus island, we communication we had the communication structure to know structure allow people to know that here, if you that if you come here, if you make attempt, you're not to make this attempt, you're not to going be successful and you're going be successful and you're going be successful and you're going be processed through going to be processed through this party countries. going to be processed through thisinteresting, countries. going to be processed through this interesting, though, s. going to be processed through thisinteresting, though, perhaps >> interesting, though, perhaps one strands you one of those strands that you just that the legal route, just said that the legal route,

the to apply lawfully , the ability to apply lawfully, that's something the that's something that the conservative party doesn't seem to exploring so much this to be exploring so much in this country. sounds like country. that sounds more like labour party policy. >> got to be, i think, >> we've got to be, i think, very mindful that at the moment, as of 2022, there are about 100 million displaced people around the a result of the world as a result of conflict persecute in some conflict and persecute in some of that conflict. been of that conflict. we've been actively and there actively involved in. and there is of accountable is a level of accountable military us as western military on us as a western nation, terms of the uk nation, as in terms of the uk government, supporting government, in supporting some of these people, to find a of these people, try to find a place safety, they need place of safety, but they need a lawful do that. so lawful route to do that. so i think we've got to find the happy medium in implementing a policy which which shows a deterrent for that to deterrent for those that wish to break support those break the law and support those who go through a process who wish to go through a process lawfully . and it's about trying lawfully. and it's about trying to sort relation to find that sort of relation ship with french the ship with the french and the belgians european belgians and this european context. thing. context. that's one thing. australia the australia didn't have the complexities of europe . complexities of europe. australia drive this australia was able to drive this policy because it had no real pushback from anyone than pushback from anyone other than some charity some sort of very vocal charity groups. but the uk has europe, which is being overly which is not being overly supportive and not helpful in terms of designing a successful

policy . policy. >> i wonder if that's where the comparisons are there for breakdown . australia sort of had breakdown. australia sort of had no rich, powerful countries in its immediate vicinity, saying , its immediate vicinity, saying, no, you can't take boats back to here. it could sort of ride roughshod over the views and ideas of the countries around it in a way that perhaps we can't do with france without some pretty serious economic consequences. >> well, yeah, and i think we've and serious economic invest you know, we've you know, you look at the rwanda set up have we really researched , you know really researched, you know around that particular policy at the moment for me, it feels very band aid. it feels to me like there's an election election cycle coming and we're going to put into quickly to put things into place quickly to show electorate that we're show the electorate that we're doing but are doing something. but are we really are we really doing something? are we really doing something? are we really bold really making the bold decisions? really making decisions? are we really making the moves? because you the bold moves? because as you said, rishi sunak's said, under rishi sunak's premiership, 25,000 have arrived. he's been power arrived. he's only been in power arrived. he's only been in power a time. so clearly a very short time. so clearly the messaging that he's getting out you've got the messaging that he's getting ou be you've got the messaging that he's getting ou be fair, you've got the messaging that he's getting ou be fair, firm you've got the messaging that he's getting ou be fair, firm and you've got

the messaging that he's getting ou be fair, firm and decisive )t to be fair, firm and decisive with the policy that is the key to success. it is so interesting because the policies seem to have been so muddled coming out of the government. >> it seems like we get a different scheme or gimmick each week clear sense of week without that clear sense of direction wonder what is direction. and i wonder what is your as someone who worked your view as someone who worked at the austro alien at the heart of the austro alien system, is your view of the system, what is your view of the rwanda scheme ? because a lot of rwanda scheme? because a lot of people might think that this is offshore processing when it really it's nothing of the source. >> no, it's just picking up a group of cohort of people that have tried to enter the country, dropping them off and wishing them the best of from what them the best of luck from what i see. and i think what if i i can see. and i think what if i were suella braverman, if was were suella braverman, if i was the prime minister, i would be picking phone people picking up the phone to people like abbott or the form of like tony abbott or the form of former australian border former head of australian border force, roman and having force, roman catholic and having conversations saying, how are you about this? you so successful about this? there's going be this there's always going to be this huge to whether people huge divide as to whether people agree not. but agree with it or not. but ultimately, if the experts are out if you found a policy out there, if you found a policy which successful, which has been successful, albeit contentious and albeit it was contentious and they challenged, find albeit it was contentious and thejpeoplezhallenged, find albeit it was contentious and thejpeople thatznged, find albeit it was contentious and thejpeople that can d, find albeit it was contentious and thejpeople that can help find

albeit it was contentious and thejpeople that can help youd the people that can help you design something you can design something which you can implement, which will be a success make that you success and make sure that you don't know, we've just don't have, you know, we've just brought we've brought a barge on board. we've put bunch of people on it. put a bunch of people on it. we've determined it's not safe for be on them. we've for them to be on them. we've taken off again. so taken them all off again. so it's bit of a circus at the it's a bit of a circus at the moment. we've really got to take the bull horns, reach out the bull by the horns, reach out to the experts, ask for help. nothing wrong that. and nothing wrong with that. and implement which works. implement a policy which works. >> what your of this >> what is your view of this barge? bibby stockholm. it barge? the bibby stockholm. it can take 500 individuals, can take up to 500 individuals, whereas last week, 555 whereas on a day last week, 555 arrived day. this is arrived on a single day. this is clearly a gimmick. >> it's a temporary fix. it's not a long term solution. you know, it's optics. we're know, again, it's optics. we're doing big doing things we found this big boat. can put a of boat. we can put a heap of people it. we can support people on it. we can support them. can go through this them. we can go through this process. but is it going to stop the boats? people are to the boats? people are going to still they can get here. still see they can get here. there's going be living a there's going be living on a boat, not land. so it's not boat, not on land. so it's not going to have the deterrent measure going to have the deterrent me well, seems so interesting >> well, it seems so interesting because on the one the because on the one hand, the government bought government says we've bought this rented this barge this barge or rented this barge probably for an exorbitant

amount to a amount of money to be a deterrent. won't want deterrent. so people won't want to on the other hand, to come here. on the other hand, you've ministers going out you've got ministers going out onto and radio onto the television and radio saying, how lovely saying, look how lovely this barge is. it's got a gym, it's got a game centre. dutch got a game centre. the dutch really up when they had really used it up when they had it. that's mixed message from it. that's a mixed message from the that i suppose the government that i suppose goes to the heart the goes to the heart of the confusion around british migration and when you migration policy and when you look can migration policy and when you lo be can migration policy and when you lo be won? can it be won? >> you're still coming here. just accommodation just just your accommodation has just been uniquely identified as a boat. when one could boat. you know, when one could turn look at the turn around and say, look at the australian the deterrent australian model, the deterrent was not coming to was you will not be coming to australia. be processed australia. you will be processed through third party country, through a third party country, which a four flight by which is a four hour flight by 737 away, surrounded 737 miles away, surrounded by a mass of water. and this is going to and arduous to be a long and arduous process. one of the greatest challenges us in the nauru challenges for us in the nauru setup manus is when setup and manus island is when we identified that seemed setup and manus island is when we intercepted that seemed setup and manus island is when we intercepted trpeople'sed we intercepted them, people's identification all thrown identification was all thrown over the didn't know who over the sea. we didn't know who people we didn't what people were, we didn't know what risk potentially pose. risk they may potentially pose. from security from a national security perspective welfare from a national security peaustralians. welfare from a national security peaustralians. so welfare from a national security peaustralians. so that welfare from a national security peaustralians. so that process of australians. so that process was and arduous in was long and arduous in identifying people they identifying people who they were, backgrounds how were, their backgrounds and how were, their backgrounds and how

we those claims. we could assess those claims. and deals were struck and obviously deals were struck up new zealand canada up with new zealand and canada in relocating people. up with new zealand and canada in ultimatelyocating people. up with new zealand and canada in ultimatelyocat policy)ple. but ultimately the policy stopped . stopped the boats. >> you make then of >> what do you make then of ideas that have been floated and that have been briefed out to the media of the brits using ascension island in a similar way of having a facility not like rwanda, where we're just sort of dumping people in another country, say, for life. there but a system where we can genuinely this of genuinely do this sort of offshore processing that the australians did , that you worked australians did, that you worked within, that would help determine the genuine refugees from those who are just economic migrants. well very migrants. well it's very much the fabric start of a the fabric of the start of a good potential policy, but you've got to make sure you've got other elements in got all the other elements in place terms importantly place in terms of importantly cutting chain of cutting off the supply chain of the smugglers. the people smugglers. >> do that, they're >> if you don't do that, they're going to keep coming. then you've got the lawful process. people through people could come through so they through they identify if they go through a purpose, then we'll a lawful purpose, then we'll listen claims. but listen to those claims. but we don't people take don't want people to take advantage of the system. we've got to find neutral ground. and then we've then there's the message. we've got out far and wide

got to get this out far and wide . you know, australian . you know, the australian government very well government did it very well throughout our chiefs throughout for our army chiefs and people leading and the people that are leading sovereign if you sovereign borders, that if you go you will not be go this route, you will not be successful. so i like the idea in principle. >> well, oliver lawrence, it's been absolutely fascinating been an absolutely fascinating conversation. so much more nuance to within that policy than i think people had than i think many people had initially that's initially thought. well, that's it program today. thank it for the program today. thank you thank to all you to oliver. thank you to all of my guests. i'll be back here next week, next sunday, for more of the one stop shop for all your political news on a sunday, the camilla tominey show . looks the camilla tominey show. looks like things are heating up. >> boxed boilers, proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. of weather on. gb news. >> hello, i am dan stroud and this is your latest gb news forecast from the met office. >> so a bit of a misty start for some of us this morning. that's thanks largely to an area of high pressure to the south of the country. further to the

north, we do have low pressure and that is driving showers in across some north and western parts of the country. 1 or 2 of those showers locally heavy, largely dry is decent . sunny largely dry is decent. sunny spells the further south and east you are and with generally lighter winds than we saw on saturday, it will feel relatively pleasant out there with temperatures right going into the mid 20s across the extreme south and east. further to the north, temperatures closer to the average for the time of year . so showers tending time of year. so showers tending to peter out across england and wales overnight and further to the north and west. we do see thicker cloud and showery outbreaks of rain starting to pushin outbreaks of rain starting to push in and with clear skies across the south, those temperatures dipping low enough for some mist and fog patches to form in the early hours of monday morning . so it's a bit of monday morning. so it's a bit of a bit of a misty, foggy start for some of us in the extreme south and east on monday. but that cloud will quickly burn off further to the north. we do have

thicker cloud with outbreaks of rain pushing slowly eastwards. temperatures generally around average for the time of year, especially across the north. further to the south, we are looking at temperatures again, similar to saturday's looks like things are heating

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good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. >> please join me for two hours of arts, culture, politics and ethical debate. completing your morning and inaugurating your afternoon . the football is afternoon. the football is kicking off in sydney and we will follow the score between england and spain to begin this houn england and spain to begin this hour, we debate whether nowadays we can expect leaders to take responsibility . party responsibility. party politicians have often been forced out of office in recent years, but public servants do not seem to be accountable for failure . often leads to failure. often leads to promotion, but is anyone ever sacked? are they justified to cling on and reap the rewards of a new posting and a generous pension in recent weeks, red wall tory mps have been amongst those concerned , urging the those concerned, urging the prime minister to rethink the so—called headlong rush to meet net zero targets by 2050. i'll be joined by the conservative member of parliament for dudley