66, the king praised their skill, determination and team spirit, and the prime minister said while it wasn't to be, they've already secured their legacy as game changers. they've already secured their legacy as game changers . despite legacy as game changers. despite the lost jeanie allitt , a member the lost jeanie allitt, a member of the original lioness team of 1972, still has high hopes for the future . the future. >> i think that whole whole of england is very emotional at the moment. it could have come home. spain was just that little bit better. if i have to be honest, we should have just done the take the chances. what we had . take the chances. what we had. it wasn't to be. it will come home eventually . home eventually. >> in other news, the british medical association's calling for hospital managers to be regulated in a similar way to medical staff. the call comes in the wake of lucy libby's conviction . the bma says it's conviction. the bma says it's deeply worrying that consultants who repeatedly raised concerns about the former nurse won't listen to letby, who was found

guilty of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of six others, has indicated she won't attend her sentence tomorrow. former justice secretary robert buckland says she should be forced to listen . she should be forced to listen. >> my suggestion had been to make sure that there was a live link beamed into the cell, either sound or sound and pictures to ensure that letby had nowhere to hide and that she, in effect, has to listen to what the judge is saying about the case and most importantly, the case and most importantly, the victim personal statements. those impact statements that will really bring home, i think, to the wider world the appalling, devastating impact of the loss of these innocent children , these innocent babies children, these innocent babies have had upon dozens of families i >> -- >>a -- >> a new brit schools set to openin >> a new brit schools set to open in bradford in west yorkshire . the government yorkshire. the government confirmed it'll be based on the award winning performing arts brit school in south london. it helped launch the careers of some of britain's best known artists and actors, including adele, and tom

adele, amy winehouse and tom holland . russia's luna, 25 holland. russia's luna, 25 spacecraft has crashed on the moon. a rocket carrying the craft launched on the 11th of august. the country in a space race against india , whose race against india, whose chandrayaan three is due to land on the satellite's south pole this week. this was moscow's first mission to the moon in 47 years. the failed attempt is a blow to the country, which was hoping to return with the first samples of frozen water. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car on digital radio and on your car on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's time for glory meets . world >> a very good morning to you.

welcome to the camilla tominey show. with me tom harwood. i'm covering whilst camilla is away , but this is the only politics show being broadcast on british television this morning, so don't go anywhere. we've got an enormous array of guests and some huge issues to get through . i'll be quizzing the schools minister nick gibb on a whole host of things, not least what the powers the lucy letby inquiry should have . the powers the lucy letby inquiry should have. big discussions there as to whether this should be a statutory inquiry or not. and there's some interesting reasons behind the other issue . there will be other issue. there will be digging into the details. i'll also be speaking to the former justice secretary, sir robert buckland . should lucy letby be buckland. should lucy letby be forced to attend her sentencing heanng forced to attend her sentencing hearing tomorrow? and can she be? she said that she's not going to turn up. well, i'll also be speaking to one of the uk's richest men, the founder of phones for you, john caldwell .

phones for you, john caldwell. he's been a big donor to the conservative party in the past . conservative party in the past. he gave them half £1 million before the last election. well, i'll be asking him whether he thinks the conservatives are doing enough to support the business community or whether he's tempted by sir keir starmer's labour party. and this week we saw the amount of migrants arriving on small boats hit 25,000. since rishi sunak became prime minister. i'll be speaking to the man who is the head of professional standards for the australian government's offshore processing scheme in nauru . but offshore processing scheme in nauru. but now offshore processing scheme in nauru . but now let's turn nauru. but now let's turn through the front pages . the through the front pages. the sunday telegraph says doctors were wage war on nhs managers after letby. that's the sunday telegraph there. the sunday times, however, says killer letby was offered role at top children's hospital after witch hunt. so sticking to a similar

theme there, the observer, of course, continues with the biggest story in town . now biggest story in town. now investigate hospital bosses to be trial expert urges police lots to be stuck in getting stuck into there and the mail on sunday says now raw to victory lioness is by order of the king that of course, the other big story this morning and on to the sunday express boats crisis eu revenge for brexit. it that's what the former heads of the uk border agency has said and to the sun on sunday now race row star quits emmerdale that's a little leftfield story of course it talks about the football as well, but the sunday mirror back to the lionesses and their big game in australia later today. lionesses we can win or lioness we can win rather. but let's

turn to now perhaps the stories behind the front pages. a bit more of the detail in all of this. i'm delighted to be joined by the legendary broadcaster john sergeant and john, there is so much across the papers to stories dominate , but perhaps stories dominate, but perhaps let's start with the news that broke on friday about lucy letby . you've picked out some interesting detail in the sunday times. yes, a sunday times have carried out a full investigation as to what they think happened. >> and it is, of course , a >> and it is, of course, a terrible story. and particularly poignant and grim . looking back poignant and grim. looking back is a meeting that letby had with her parents at the hospital in 20. would you believe it, 2016? i mean , it's extraordinary as i mean, it's extraordinary as far back as that. and that's where the hospital management

apologised to her and her parents. i mean , it's this is parents. i mean, it's this is the grotesque moment and the parents and she is then told that the doctors who've been investigating it and believe that she was responsible or think she's responsible for murders at this point . they murders at this point. they these doctors say the management at this meeting that the doctors will be dealt with. this is the management speaking. i mean, it is extraordinary. it took sunday times as it took almost two years after the first three murders for the hospital managers to alert the police. isn't that extraordinary? and one of the consultants says in the same investigation 4 or 5 babies who were murdered could still be alive . now, if they still be alive. now, if they take an action, then so the whole thing is just i know it's one of the grimmest draws. i think i ever seen in a newspaper. it is extra ordinary to see how the management almost act to protect this nurse rather

than looking into the whistleblowing that was going on. >> and this in particular, because one of those executives, when he became the executive of the hospital, had said he wanted the hospital, had said he wanted the most open culture for whistleblowing to start with. that's it. >> there's a video of him has already been broadcast with him saying, you know, this will be what i'll be judged on. and this extraordinary i don't extraordinary sort of i don't know. it turns out to be the most absurd pledge that he would always respond . and, of course, always respond. and, of course, when it comes to it, he doesn't respond at all properly . and respond at all properly. and this is the point that in the sunday times story , he she is sunday times story, he she is then offered a role as a master's degree in nursing and a placement at the alder hey children's hospital in liverpool, a very important, very famous hospital in liverpool and to think that this killer could not only just be absolved from what she called bullying and accusations. so no,

no , we must apologise to her, no, we must apologise to her, but also give her a chance to continue her career at this hot top hospital. this is years ago. this is we're talking about, you know , several years before it know, several years before it became obvious what was going on. so it is a terrible indictment. the sunday telegraph says the management must be held to account for what they that they failed , that they failed they failed, that they failed they failed, that they failed the patients in the most grotesque way. it really is . i grotesque way. it really is. i don't know what these managers are going to say when they finally come up with the inquiry, but it's not going to be very convincing. wouldn't be very convincing. i wouldn't have really, some have thought. no, really, some huge the inquiry to huge things for the inquiry to get stuck into and some questions over much power questions over how much power that will have. that inquiry will have. >> but must move on >> but but we must move on because is another big, because there is another big, big you've big story today. and you've picked interesting contrast picked an interesting contrast here between two stories in two different papers. the sunday telegraph carries the story that the prince has apologised and prince william, this is

apologises for his absence at the world cup final. but but you've contrast this with the story in the times which is talking about how prince william has embraced his his destiny. what's this all about? >> well, it was extraordinary is that you get this contrasting stories really sort of saying that that king charles, except he's a sort of caretaker. looking forward to the real change when william will become king and you think, oh, the decent of charles to talk about william in this sort of rather flattering way that he's not going to be much, but he he's just going to be the walk on before the great man arrives himself, seems himself, which seems extraordinary for king. >> but anyway, especially for a king who's been so vocal in his long apprenticeship for the job in waiting for his injuries. >> oh, no, no. i'm sort of. >> oh, no, no. i'm just sort of. ru— >> oh, no, no. i'm just sort of. i'll be saying seeing william in the job, but you then think, now, minute. why is this now, wait a minute. why is this come this precise moment? why come at this precise moment? why are are courtiers are the why are the courtiers been saying this? very close sources ? and then you contrast sources? and then you contrast that with the prince william

sorry for not going to australia and several reasons given one of the ones which i personally don't agree with, which is that i was worried of his carbon footprint. i don't think so. no. no but they think the other quote this is from the mail saying it's not diplomatically sound , say sources, is this what sound, say sources, is this what they really mean? is that the king has not visited australia for nine years. so so he wants to make a big substantial visit to make a big substantial visit to australia and doesn't want to be upstaged by his son. >> wow. >> wow. >> would he want to be? now, look, this is we're speculating . we don't know. but it seems highly likely that in fact the king wouldn't be pleased if william went. what if the lion has his win and there's a great sort of wonderful oh, how marvellous. and lots of supporters in australia for our lovely lionesses and also for prince william and then perhaps next year the king arrived. not

such an exciting visit, of coui'se. >> course. >> two difficult king charles has once been upstaged in australia before , for in his australia before, for in his first visit after his marriage to diana. i wonder if echoes of this about it is fascinating to see all these things, the mechanics behind how how the royals talk to the papers, how the papers sort of show this sort of discussion , sort of sort of discussion, sort of hiding in plain sight. that's right. >> you think, oh, no, you're being sort of silly. you're sort of making connections that aren't there. but we look back on what has happened in the last 20 30 years, and see we do 20 or 30 years, and we see we do see patterns here. them, see patterns here. we see them, in fact, wired about their in fact, very wired about their personal standing, very worried about what will happen. very very worried about how these royal visits will go. and the idea that that prince william would get this perfect visit at this time. oh now, now, we are running out of time. >> let's just jump to a quick culture war story because graham linehan , the writer of father linehan, the writer of father ted the it crowd, lots of sitcoms , has written in the

sitcoms, has written in the telegraph about being cancelled. yes he's written about being cancelled and the effect of, in fact, did manage to put on a little show in front of the parliament in in edinburgh. >> but it's a rather sad sort of piece about how, you know, he wasn't very funny . it was great wasn't very funny. it was great as a protest. but he wants to get back to comedy and it's rather sort of i don't know, it's sort of extraordinary to think he's fed up with protesting. he feels strongly about the trans issues, feel that, you know, that that women are being harassed and people are being harassed and people are being harassed and people are being cancelled because they're holding what he regards as perfectly ordinary views about gender and about sex. so you know, there's a bitterness there, but also a feeling can i just get back to my real job, which is writing jokes? it's a kind of you know, it's the cry of the clown, isn't it? >> it is interesting, though, because the venue, of course, that said that he couldn't perform there did point to some of the things that he had said in the past, do seem in the past, which do seem pretty tasteful, calling the trans movement a paedophilic

movement . he trans movement a paedophilic movement. he said that almost every central figure in the trans movement is a that derogatory term, that term for. i mean, he has been pretty outspoken on this issue in a fairly distasteful way. >> sure . and he suffered for it. >> sure. and he suffered for it. i mean, because people have, as you say, those sorts of remarks have gone down very badly in the media world and in the world that he where he wants to work in comedy , he hasn't worked in comedy, he hasn't worked properly in comedy for five years. but of course, people think of the sublime series father ted and they're sort of they desperately want to forgive him. yes. i mean, so no, he's not a perfect campaigner , no not a perfect campaigner, no doubt about that. but he is almost a perfect comedy, just in the last really 15 seconds. >> yeah. i want to test your spanish. oh, yeah. this is something in the mail. what does inferno kuno an lorem . inferno kuno an lorem. >> well, thankfully the male preparing us for me when win in australia right so i happen to

know what what the inferno come on sick as a parrot and not lo rob baron. well now this is very important. we were robbed. we were robbed. well, that's what you say. >> potentially. words. we may well need to stick by. john. sergeant, thank you much for sergeant, thank you so much for going through papers this going through the papers this morning. absolutely morning. it's been absolutely fascinating . that warm feeling fascinating. that warm feeling inside from boxt boilers proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. sponsors of weather on. gb news. >> hello, i'm dan strout and this is your latest gb news forecast from the met office. so we have high pressure to the south and low pressure to the north and west. it kind of leaves the uk in between weather systems. but this area of low pressure is starting to actually push thicker cloud and outbreaks of rain in across northern ireland. and northwest scotland . further to the south, across england and wales, largely clear skies and under those clear

skies and under those clear skies , we do see some low cloud skies, we do see some low cloud mist and fog developing by dawn overnight, temperatures remain in comfortably in double figures right the way across the board. now it's a bright start. come monday morning with any low cloud mist and fog across the south, quickly lifting and breaking, leaving a pleasant enough day for many across the south. further north, we have that rain edging in from the west and that rain will become locally heavy by the course of the afternoon . temperatures on the afternoon. temperatures on monday generally slightly higher than the valleys we saw on sunday with highs of 25 across the across the south and 21 further south, north. so that band of cloud and rain continues to sink south on tuesday. and this kind of sets the scene for the rest of the week as low pressure gradually wins out, turning increasingly showery for all by midweek and temperatures peaking on wednesday, particularly across the south and east for by now, that warm

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listening to news radio. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> john sergeant still joins me in the studio. we've moved up to the breakfast bar this morning. that means we're doing more serious political discussion, rather flicking through the papers. it's yeah. i want to ask you about nick gibb. he's a fascinating figure. he's been school minister for over 12 years. and in this government, we haven't seen many individuals stay in one job for a very long time. we've seen a host of different prime ministers, different prime ministers, different chancellors, different home secretaries . do you think home secretaries. do you think it's important that there are some jobs where an individual has been there through the course ? course? >> well, it can help. i mean, you get some of these jobs, whether it's prime ministers, whether it's prime ministers, whether so many running through

prime minister , and you think, prime minister, and you think, wait a moment, how could they possibly be any good? the thing is, of course, that when they go into a department, the civil service have worked out what they think should be going aren't that many options. i mean , i think people imagine and of course, it's part of system course, it's part of the system to build up the position of the minister, to build up position, particularly the secretary of state, that they're coming in state, so that they're coming in and make a big change. it and it'll make a big change. it does.in and it'll make a big change. it does. in terms of the mood music does, terms of how they get does, in terms of how they get on with the senior staff . but so on with the senior staff. but so much has been long aside, particularly in schools policy . particularly in schools policy. you don't suddenly start doing this and changing and this and changing that. and i think we should do this. >> john, thank you so for >> john, thank you so much for talking through those big subjects because we're now going talking through those big su turns because we're now going talking through those big su turn to ecause we're now going talking through those big su turn to nickse we're now going talking through those big su turn to nick gibb, re now going talking through those big su turn to nick gibb, the ow going to turn to nick gibb, the schools minister, who i'm delighted to say can join us now down the line from westminster. nick, thank you for joining down the line from westminster. nick, thank you forjoining us nick, thank you for joining us this morning. i suppose let's kick off with your big announcement this morning. a new

brit school in bradford . brit school in bradford. >> yes, brit school north building on the success of the brit school in south london that has produced people like adele and amy winehouse have sold 250 million albums from that school i >> collectively, 15 brit awards. and we want the same opportunity for talented young people in the north. this is a 16 to 19 school for 500 students in drama in in dance and singing in the technical aspects of theatre and film production. it will open in 3 or 4 years time and it's one of the first free schools that were announcing next week as well . well. >> it's interesting that you've chosen bradford for the location of this school, given that the government has recently appeared to have rolled back from northern powerhouse rail, abandoning a stop in bradford . abandoning a stop in bradford. how come you're putting a new crucial school for the arts in a

place that is not getting the sort of rail investment that was once promised ? once promised? >> there's a lot of talent in the north. we don't want young people to have to travel to the south. but also in that part of west yorkshire we have emi north in leeds. we have a channel for leeds, we have in calderdale, the film industry in bradford itself, we have the national museum of science and media , so museum of science and media, so it's a good location for a new brit school the creative industries are creating £100 billion of income for our economy and we have an ambition to increase that by another £50 billion by 2030. the industry needs talent. they need those skills and they need them in the north as well as the south. so it's important that we have a brit school north located in bradford . bradford. >> i think lots of people would agree with that. people might just if bradford should agree with that. people might jus better if bradford should agree with that. people might jus better connected ford should agree with that. people might jus better connected tod should agree with that. people might jus better connected to places.d be better connected to places like liverpool and manchester andindeed like liverpool and manchester and indeed leeds, but we do. we must move on because one of the biggest stories this weekend, of

course , is the lucy letby case. course, is the lucy letby case. and of course an independent inquiry has been committed to by the government. but there are big questions on whether or not this should be a statutory increments, a statutory inquiry, why hasn't the government been clear on this ? clear on this? >> well, look, as soon as the verdict, this is an appalling, horrific case of child murder. and as soon as those verdicts were handed down on friday, the government announced that there would be a full inquiry into what happened so that the parents can understand what happened. and i've been reading in the paper today and yesterday, the stories of the consultants who reported early warnings about what was happening . and the inquiry will happening. and the inquiry will look at how those warnings, how concerns raised were concerns that were raised were handled the hospital , by the handled by the hospital, by the trust executives. so all that will be covered by the inquiry will be covered by the inquiry will be covered by the inquiry will be announcing a chair that inquiry very soon. and the terms of reference. so we don't know

yet what terms of reference yet what the terms of reference will be announced will be. they'll be announced very i can assure very soon. but what i can assure you that they will look at you is that they will look at all of this right across all aspects of this right across the to the health service so that we can understand what happened, and happened, learn lessons and absolutely anything like absolutely prevent anything like this from happening again . this from happening again. >> how soon will those terms of reference be announced? because the affected by this the families affected by this scandal, the families affected by this murderer , have been by this murderer, have been worried that this inquiry will be toothless, that it won't have the power, the statutory power to compel witnesses . to compel witnesses. >> well, the parents we want the parents to be involved in shaping this inquiry. so the they will be the government will be talking to the parents and their representatives to make sure that the inquiry does cover all the aspects of the concerns that they have. and indeed, the whole country has. so we can make sure that we learn all the lessons that need to be learned. >> just one final time, will it have power to compel have the power to compel witnesses .

witnesses. >> well, let's see what the terms of reference, the terms of reference have not been published yet. the government is working on those. we've already made that there made a commitment that there will be an inquiry. the government is now working on the terms we're terms of reference. we're talking we will be talking to the parents make sure they the parents to make sure they are in shaping this are involved in shaping this inquiry and we'll be making announcements both who will announcements on both who will chair it and those terms of reference very soon. reference very 500“. >> reference very soon. >> it does seem that there have been failings in the been huge, huge failings in the hospital the and in hospital, in the trust and in the nhs. will this inquiry be looking into the clear failures in management? the warning signs that were missed and indeed the lives that may well have been saved had management acted on the advice on the whistleblower of doctors ? yes it will. of doctors? yes it will. >> absolutely. that's precisely what the inquiry will be covering . i've read those covering. i've read those reports in today's paper and in yesterday's paper, and they are quite shocking . and that's what

quite shocking. and that's what the inquiry really must get to, really must try and understand why warnings , why concerns that why warnings, why concerns that were raised, what what the governance was of the hospital about these issues . and that's about these issues. and that's precisely what the inquiry will look at so we can learn precisely what happened, learn lessons from that, and then prevent it from happening again i >> -- >> now, i do want to move on to another huge issue that our audience massively cares about, and that is the small boats crisis , because this week we crisis, because this week we learned that since rishi sunak became prime minister the number illegally living arriving on the shores of the united kingdom by small boat , shores of the united kingdom by small boat, has risen to 25,000. and just during rishi sunak's short time as prime minister , short time as prime minister, the government's failing here isn't it ? isn't it? >> well, the prime minister came into office in october. he's given one of his top five pledges. is to tackle the small boats issue this current year , boats issue this current year, year to date , we are 15. there

year to date, we are 15. there are 15% fewer small boats crossings than there were at this time last year. there's clearly more to do. we've negotiated with the leadership of the prime minister, deals with france, with albania , with with france, with albania, with turkey, to get the intelligence to understand what's happening to understand what's happening to so we can tackle it at .the root. we pass the illegal migration bill and that gives the power now that now that that bill is in statute, it means that anybody arriving in this country illegally cannot have residency here. so anybody arriving on boats now will be sent back to where they came from or to a third party safe. countries such as rwanda. so we are the prime minister. this is are the prime minister. this is a top priority for the prime minister. and actually we are achieving some success. but there's clearly a lot more to do. and that's and that's what's the top most of the prime minister's agenda and the government's agenda at the

moment .

radio. >> let's begin now with sir robert buckland, the former just secretary and conservative mp for south swindon. sir robert , for south swindon. sir robert, thank you so much for joining for south swindon. sir robert, thank you so much forjoining us this morning on the programme. i suppose we must kick off with the just just astounding news in this lucy letby case. the government seems to be unclear on the terms of reference for this inquiry , this promised this inquiry, this promised inquiry. the government's committed to an inquiry, but i was speaking to nick gibb just moments ago. he wouldn't say that the government should have full statutory powers to compel witnesses . why is the government witnesses. why is the government being ambiguous here? >> well, i think that it's really important that any

inquiry has the requisite powers to ensure that all material is brought before it in all appropriate witnesses are brought before we know that inquiries under the 2005 act have that power . and it does have that power. and it does seem to me in a case like this that in to order establish maximum confidence , then giving maximum confidence, then giving the inquiry, those powers would, i think, be a wise thing to do. now, it doesn't need to be necessary a judge chairing it. i think it needs to be somebody who has experience of the management of a lot of information. could even be somebody with clinical or a clinical background. but it's got to be somebody who has independence , a strong independence, a strong reputation. and the ability to make sure that all documents are before them. i'm trying to think why the government might not be committing at this stage to a statutory inquiry . statutory inquiry. >> one argument could be that it's just slower to get off the ground. it would need to be passed. perhaps by by mps. that

would that would slow things down. do you think that might be factoring their factoring into their considerations ? considerations? >> well, what statutory inquiries do take a little longer to set up. and if a judge is to be appointed, then the government has to consult with the judiciary , in the senior judiciary, in particular the the seniorjudiciary, in particular the lord chief justice, before , for example, justice, before, for example, a serving judge or indeed a retired judge, can be approached. and therefore, these things do take but as i've things do take time. but as i've said, don't think it said, i don't think it necessarily to judge necessarily needs to be a judge . it needs to be somebody with that experience. that requisite experience. and very somebody , you know, a very often somebody, you know, a senior clinician or somebody with could with a health background could be an appropriate person as long as they have the ability to manage all the detail, as they have the ability to manage all the detail , facts and manage all the detail, facts and documents in this case. and crucially, that ability to summon for documents and witnesses, it is astonishing that in the last 30 years or so, we've now seen three cases within the nhs of health care professionals. >> more murdering their patients . we saw the angel of death , . we saw the angel of death, beverley allitt in the early

1990s. we of course saw harold shipman as well, who was who was found out and sentenced in the year 2000. and i believe . and year 2000. and i believe. and now of course we have lucy letby. it seems that there's almost a pattern of behaviour here and lessons that have not been learned . been learned. >> well, look, tom, i think it's really important that we all remember that the vast majority of professional within the nhs andindeed of professional within the nhs and indeed everybody working there do a superb job for us all and it is tragic and appalling that where one person like letby and the ones you've mentioned is able to have such of an autonomy, if you like , a, you autonomy, if you like, a, you know, a control over situation that then, you know, murder and mayhem can ensue . i think from mayhem can ensue. i think from what we're seeing , the emerging what we're seeing, the emerging reports about this case do reveal that a number of professionals had deep concerns and there were clearly complaint

procedures and a number of processes that were undertaken within the nhs prior to the arrest of letby . and that arrest of letby. and that clearly has to be the focus now of the inquiry to understand precisely what went wrong, why it is that people who were blowing the whistle don't seem to have been properly listened to. and as you say , to get this to. and as you say, to get this cultural change that we need. i think instead of an nhs that is unduly defensive about everything bearing in mind the risk of litigation and damages, which we know medical negligence , clinical negligence damages are running through the billions of pounds, much more of a sort of pounds, much more of a sort of black box approach to responsibility , which we see, responsibility, which we see, for example, in the airline industry, where where mistakes, where things go wrong instead of a finger pointing culture. it's an openness and a belief and a dedication to try and make sure that those mistakes are not repeated again. and i think it's increasingly that approach that

we need to foster and encourage in the nhs supporting clinicians, supporting all our caring staff, but at the same time acting truly in the public interest . interest. >> right now we're hearing from the government that killers will be compelled to attend their sentencing . that's something sentencing. that's something that we're expecting now in the king's speech in the autumn , but king's speech in the autumn, but that's several months away . is that's several months away. is there anything that could be done to force lucy letby to attend her own sentencing for , attend her own sentencing for, as we understand it right now , as we understand it right now, she's intent not to? >> well, i know . and i think, >> well, i know. and i think, sadly, the court's hands are tied at the moment. i mean, my suggestion have been to make sure that there was a live link beamed into the cell, either sound or sound and pictures to ensure that letby had nowhere to hide and that she, in effect, has to listen to what the judge is saying about the case. and most importantly , the victim. most importantly, the victim. personal statements, those

impact statements that will really bring home. i think, to the wider world. the appalling, devastating impact of the loss of these innocent children, these innocent babies have had upon dozens of families . and upon dozens of families. and thatis upon dozens of families. and that is why i think the government is right to act. there are a couple of options . i there are a couple of options. i hear indeed, about proposals for the king's speech in november. there's a bill currently before parliament victims bill that perhaps could be amended by the government as it goes through the commons. it's still in the common stages. legislation takes time. you know, tom, i've dealt with a lot legislation myself with a lot of legislation myself and it through parliament. and got it through parliament. it many but it does take many months, but i'm glad to see the government is taking the necessary action and trying to strike the balance between stopping the compulsion of the defendant becoming the centrepiece of attention, but making sure that defendants are being made to face the consequence of their appalling crimes . crimes. >> i think beaming that sentencing into her cell and

perhaps having having a camera in that cell sounds like an excellent suggestion . i hope excellent suggestion. i hope people are listening to those suggestions from you, sir robert. but let's move on now to the issue of the ec . this robert. but let's move on now to the issue of the ec. this is something that that , dare i say, something that that, dare i say, it is providing a dividing line within the conservative party. we hear that a third of cabinet wants out and two thirds want to stay in the government itself seems to have this peculiar position that it hasn't made up its mind on this issue until the rwanda ruling comes back, perhaps not until the end of the year. perhaps not until the end of the year . your party is in a mess year. your party is in a mess over this . no, look , i think the over this. no, look, i think the vast majority of conservative mps support our continuing membership of the convention. >> it was british conservative lawyers who wrote it with the express support of sir winston churchill . we should be very churchill. we should be very proud of our role in being one of the guarantor of peace and freedom and fundamental rights

in europe. this is all about, you know , i think the not just you know, i think the not just the history, but the future of our party as well in making sure that we are outward looking, that we are outward looking, that we are outward looking, that we understand the impact that we understand the impact that withdrawal would have upon our role in the world and how people perceive the united kingdom. and i think that leaving the echr would be a grave mistake . it's not serious grave mistake. it's not serious politics, tom. you know, i still don't follow precisely what leaving the echr would do when it comes to things like the rwanda policy. the court of appeal didn't say that sending people to a third country was unlawful or in breach of the echr what they wanted was more evidence that rwanda was a safe country . now we define safe country. now we define safe country. now we define safe country in domestic law. the lord chief justice thought that the government had provided enough evidence. the other two judges disagree. that's what the issue boils down to now. and that's what i think we should all be focusing upon. i support the policy absolute supported, but i don't think that debates

about the echr help anybody. it's a massive red herring and we should move on and focus on what's important when it comes to this vital issue of small boats. was it not the case that those individuals who were sitting on that plane , that sitting on that plane, that original plane that was ready to take off to rwanda, who were then taken off the plane one by one, that was under the view that was under rulings from the echr ? well, that was an interim echr? well, that was an interim order under what's called rule 39. it's only an interim order when you look at the terms of the treaty that we signed, the convention, the united kingdom is bound by final judgements of the court affecting the uk . you the court affecting the uk. you know, tom, the number of judgements every year involving the uk is tiny. it's on the hands on the fingers of one hand as opposed to say, you know, russia, formerly a member which was being found in breach, hundreds of times, as you would expect , a regime like hundreds of times, as you would expect, a regime like putin's to be found in breach. i really

think that, you know, there's a world of difference between the strasbourg court and its role. and the role that the luxembourg court had when we were members of the eu that clearly had a direct effect upon the applicability of law in the uk. totally different roles. i think the best way forward for the uk is to continue being a strong voice for further reform. we did it ten or so years ago by deaung it ten or so years ago by dealing with the backlog of cases. dealing with the backlog of cases . we can do it again and cases. we can do it again and i think that, you know, talk about leaving just diminishes the leading role that our country has played, particularly in light of the importance of unity in the face of putin's aggression in ukraine. i can't think of a worse time for an issue like this to be raised. and that's why i think we should put the issue firmly back in the box, focus upon the practicalities and support the prime minister on his initiatives with albania and indeed, i hope with turkey and other countries that i think will really have an effect upon the small boats crisis.

>> well, sir robert, you certainly have strong views there. plenty of your there. there are plenty of your colleagues would say the colleagues who would say the opposite. i fear that for your sake , the boks may not well the sake, the boks may not well the issue mean will not be put back in that box over the next year or so. we'll continue to follow it, though. and thank you so much for your time .

yes welcome back to the camilla tominey programme. now the former head of professional standards for the australian government's offshore processing scheme in nauru is a man named oliver lawrence and he joins me now in the studio. and oliver, thank you so much for coming in because i think a lot of people are absolutely fascinated with australian policy . what was australian policy. what was known as operation sovereign borders under tony abbott . first borders under tony abbott. first of all, can you just explain

what was your role in how that and how that policy was delivered? yes. >> my role in essence was to support asylum seekers and refugees with complaints they made about the system we had in place. so nauru was a very complex facility with a lot of infrastructure and had lot infrastructure and we had a lot of australian expats there from broad wilson security broad spectrum wilson security and force and australian border force looking the the looking after the care, the safety security of asylum safety and security of asylum seekers refugees. and my job seekers and refugees. and my job was respond to complaints was to respond to complaints they and to implement they had and to implement additional policies where we thought we needed to provide additional and support. and additional care and support. and ultimately did things ultimately if we did things wrong, our staff wrong, hold our staff accountable. a accountable. now it's a fascinating study because fascinating case study because when abbott became prime when tony abbott became prime minister of australia in 2013, he said he wanted to stop the boats. >> it was one of his big election slogans and his policy was turn back against what some people would say was international law to international law to international condemnation. he turned boats back, tugged them back to nauru. but i suppose there was a lot more to it than simply turning back the boats. >> hugely. you know, it was a

very complex policy in terms of 2013, came in with a primary mandate to turn back the boats and stop them. we were losing people at sea and nobody wants to see women and children to see men, women and children dying in oceans off the dying in the oceans off the australian so this policy australian coast. so this policy came 2013. operation came in 2013. operation sovereign borders. we established manus established nauru and manus island is two of the processing centres and message was centres and the message was quite clear. if you want make quite clear. if you want to make a on a boat to australia a trip on a boat to australia and enter illegally , you and try to enter illegally, you will never get to arrive into australia. you'll sent to australia. you'll be sent to either manus island either nauru and manus island where claims be where your claims will then be processed. will never processed. but you will never make australian it was make australian shore. it was incredibly complex. the infrastructure placed infrastructure that was placed into those remote areas was into both those remote areas was into both those remote areas was in the billions and then on top of that you've got the staff and the specialists supporting people with both medical concerns. you've then got the infrastructure behind education and social and welfare of these people know, we people because, you know, we have remember there are have to remember there are hundreds of millions of displaced around the displaced people around the world. australia recognised that. equally wanted that. but equally they wanted people a people to come through a legitimate lawful process in terms of applying through a

third country. terms of applying through a thirso country. terms of applying through a thirso these)untry. terms of applying through a thirso these enormous facilities >> so these enormous facilities that were established outside of mainland australia and territory, how many billions of australian dollars are we talking and what sort of infrastructure was was running there? so it was billions and billions. >> it was a huge commitment by the australian government to make sure the policy was effective ultimately it effective and ultimately it worked. stopped the boats . worked. it stopped the boats. and so were you looking at sort of different centres to of various different centres to support cohorts, support different cohorts, single females , family, single adult females, family, single adult females, family, single adult females, family, single adult males, everything was covered to make sure people's needs and expectations were met. and ultimately then you'd have a rotation of staff that would come in and off the island make sure that care island to make sure that care and provided. 24 and support was provided. 24 hours seven days a week, hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a and i had never 365 days a year. and i had never worked with many remarkably worked with so many remarkably talented individuals supporting people who'd come from very, very distressing backgrounds. >> have been complaints >> there have been complaints about conditions in these about the conditions in these facilities. there have been many news stories that some of the conditions were not up to scratch, that that there was no

illness , that all sorts of illness, that all sorts of perhaps unpalatable things. was that was that your experience? >> no. you know, when you're whenever you're implementing a policy of that size and scale and that complexity, there's always going be problems always going to be problems along way there's along the way. there's no denying at there were denying that at all. there were incidents disorder. incidents of public disorder. people frustrated with people were frustrated with the system, frustrated with the process. so what we found is by having an open system , people having an open system, people could and go from these could come and go from these centres please. they centres as they please. they weren't they were weren't prisons, they were provided with incredible accommodation. they often wouldn't our staff go wouldn't allow our staff to go in and to and support in and tend to them and support them those them because obviously those that really against the that were really against the policy wanted to make sure that they could get the images, which would be graphic enough to demonstrate that this bad demonstrate that this was bad and it it was it was not in and it was it was it was not in the interest of these individuals it was totally individuals when it was totally the opposite. >> though, >> it's interesting, though, because just about the because it wasn't just about the idea turning back the boats. idea of turning back the boats. these facilities these are processing facilities . and i suppose some of those who went through the processing facilities determined to be facilities were determined to be genuine . what lessons genuine refugees. what lessons do we have to learn from that ?

do we have to learn from that? >> the key to the australian policy with a seven several different segments, it was understanding that we needed a deterrent, otherwise people were going to continue to arrive into australia . people needed australia. people then needed a lawful route to go through to be able to come to australia, apply like other people in terms of like other people do in terms of immigration. number one job immigration. the number one job of to protect its of government is to protect its borders. fundamentally borders. if we fundamentally can't right, in can't get that right, we are in a serious pickle and the british government has been grappling with of years. with this for a couple of years. and you've got the piece and then you've got the piece around the enforcement the around the enforcement and the investigation people investigation of the people smugglers. where the smugglers. that is where the efforts be focussed so efforts need to be focussed so that so if that the trade stops. so if people can see that it's going to ineffective in on to be ineffective in getting on a which generally fit a boat which isn't generally fit for purpose, overcrowded, not enough lifejackets, enough life lifejackets, etcetera , it's very dangerous. etcetera, it's very dangerous. so the messaging was very clear to only did have this to not only did we have this term the boat policy term about the boat policy and we manus island, we had nauru and manus island, we had nauru and manus island, we the communication we had the communication structure allow people to know that you here, if you that if you come here, if you make attempt, you're not make this attempt, you're not going successful going to be successful and you're processed you're going to be processed through third party countries. >> interestingly, though,

perhaps strands perhaps one of those strands that said the that you just said that the legal ability to legal route, the ability to apply lawfully , that's something apply lawfully, that's something that the conservative party doesn't seem to be exploring so much in this country. that sounds more like labour party policy. >> we've got to be, i think, very mindful that at the moment, as of 2022, there about 100 million displaced people around the world as a result of conflict and persecution . some conflict and persecution. some of we've been of that conflict we've been actively there actively involved in. and there is level of accountability on is a level of accountability on us a western nation, as in us as a western nation, as in terms the uk government, in terms of the uk government, in supporting these people, supporting some of these people, try a place of safety, try to find a place of safety, but they need lawful route to but they need a lawful route to do so we've got to do that. so i think we've got to find the happy medium in implementing a policy which which a deterrent for which shows a deterrent for those that to break the those that wish to break the law and support wish to go and support those who wish to go through process and through a process lawfully. and it's find that it's about trying to find that sort relationship the sort of relationship with the french belgians this french and the belgians and this european that's one european context. that's one thing. didn't have thing. australia didn't have the complexities of europe, australia was able to drive this policy because it had no real pushback from other than pushback from anyone other than some sort of very vocal charity groups. the uk europe ,

groups. but the uk has europe, which being overly which is not being overly supportive and not helpful in terms of designing a successful policy . policy. >> i wonder if that's where the comparison is there for break down. australia sort of had no rich, powerful countries in its immediate vicinity saying no, you can't take boats back to here. it could sort of ride roughshod over the views and ideas of the countries around it in a way that perhaps we can't do with france without some pretty serious economic consequences. >> well, yeah, and i think we've and serious economic investment, you know, we've you know, you look at the rwanda set up, have we really researched, you know, around that particular policy at the moment, for me, it feels very band aid. it feels to me like there's an election election cycle coming and we're going to put things into place quickly electorate quickly to show the electorate that something. but quickly to show the electorate tha'we something. but quickly to show the electorate tha'we really something. but quickly to show the electorate tha'we really doing �*nething. but quickly to show the electorate tha'we really doing something?t are we really doing something? are making bold are we really making the bold decisions? are we really making the moves? because as you the bold moves? because as you said, rishi sunak's said, under rishi sunak's premiership have premiership, 25,000 have arrived. power arrived. he's only been in power arrived. he's only been in power a time. so clearly a very short time. so clearly the messaging getting

the messaging that he's getting out working. you've got out is not working. you've got to be firm and decisive to be fair, firm and decisive with the policy that is the key to success. >> well, oliver lawrence, it's been an absolutely fascinating conversation, so more conversation, so much more nuanced, so within that policy than think people had than i think many people had initially thought . well, that's initially thought. well, that's it for the programme today. thank you to oliver. thank you to all of my guests. i'll be back here next week, next sunday, for more of the one stop shop for all your political news on a sunday, the camilla tominey show . the temperatures rising . show. the temperatures rising. >> boxt solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news. weather on. gb news. >> hello, i'm dan strout and this is your latest gb news forecast from the met office. so we have high pressure to the south and low pressure to the north and west. it kind of leaves the uk in between weather systems. but this area of low

pressure is starting to actually push thick a cloud and outbreaks of rain in across northern ireland and northwest scotland . ireland and northwest scotland. further to the south, across england and wales, largely clear skies and under those clear skies, we do see some low cloud mist and fog developing by dawn overnight , temperatures overnight, temperatures remaining comfortably in double figures right the way across the board. now it's a bright start monday morning with any low cloud mist and fog across the south, quickly lifting and breaking, leaving a pleasant enough day for many across the south. further north, we have that rain edging in from the west and that rain will become locally heavy by the course of the afternoon . temperatures on the afternoon. temperatures on monday generally slightly higher than the values we saw on sunday with highs of 25 across the across the south and 21 further south, north. so that band of cloud and rain continues to sink south on tuesday. and this kind of sets the scene for the rest

of sets the scene for the rest of the week as low pressure gradually wins out, turning increasingly showery for all by midweek week and temperatures peaking on wednesday, particularly across the south and east. by for now , the and east. by for now, the temperatures rising . temperatures rising. >> boxt solar proud sponsors of weather on . gb news the dewbs & weather on. gb news the dewbs& co we tackle the issues of the day with real robust debate. >> both sides of the fence battling it out with me in the middle with my forthright opinions and views and often really interesting things happen because start with a because you start with a position and then by the end of the debate you find actually i might thought about might not have thought about that we need in this country >> what we need in this country is two new political parties, you should say. >>

or or. or or. or or. or or .

where >> good evening. i'm tatiana sanchez. in the newsroom. england have missed out on world cup glory, losing the final to spain 1—0 the lionesses came agonisingly close to becoming the first england senior side to win the trophy since the men's team in 1966. the king praised their skill, determination and team spirit and the prime minister said while it wasn't to be, they've already secured their legacy as game changers , their legacy as game changers, despite the loss geniality , a despite the loss geniality, a member of the original lionesses team of 1972 still has high hopes for the future. >> i think that whole whole of england is very emotional at the moment . it could have come home. moment. it could have come home. spain was just that little bit better. if i have to be honest, we should have just done the take the chances. what we had it wasn't to be. it will come home eventually . eventually. >> elsewhere, the british medical association is calling for hospital managers to be regulated in a similar way to medical staff. the call comes