>> nigel, thank you very much. and good evening. this is the latest from the gb news room. breaking news. first, a police officer who was hit by a train last week has died. 46 year old sergeant graham saville was trying to save a distressed man on the railway tracks in balderton flags across the nottinghamshire police force will now be flown at half mast as a mark of respect. nottinghamshire chief constable kate meynell says his service and sacrifice will never be forgotten . the mayor of london forgotten. the mayor of london says he's sorry for anyone who's suffering adverse consequences because of his policies. speaking to gb news, sadiq khan said the expanded ulez policy is essential to protect the health of people living in the capital. >> i'm always sorry for anybody who's suffering adverse consequences because of our policies, but at the same time, i've got to be honest with people and say i've been meeting bereaved mums whose lost their children because of air pollution. when been pollution. when i've been meeting paediatrician today meeting a paediatrician today who works with mums who are pregnant suffering the

consequences of air consequences because of air pollution who are pollution and babies who are born the consequences. born suffering the consequences. i've a doctor who runs i've met today a doctor who runs an asthma clinic, but also i visited great ormond street. the inpatient ward at the children's evelina hospital . inpatient ward at the children's evelina hospital. i met scientists, health practitioners and others. that's why i'm angry that the government is letting down london and the south—east >> but prime minister rishi sunak says the mayor's decision is in poor taste. people and families are struggling with the cost of living. >> that's obvious to everyone. one. and at that time the labour party, the labour mayor sadiq khan keir starmer are introducing the ulez charge which is going to hit working families. i don't think that's the priority. i don't the right priority. i don't think that's the right thing to do and wish they not done it. >> gb news can reveal at least 20,000 people have crossed the engush 20,000 people have crossed the english channel so far this yeah english channel so far this year. official home office figures show that up until yesterday , 19,800 migrants had yesterday, 19,800 migrants had arrived in small boats . however, arrived in small boats. however, gb sources reveal up to 300 migrants being brought into

dover harbour on border force vessels . today brings that vessels. today brings that total. far, this year to over total. so far, this year to over 20,000. it's understood they crossed the channel in at least six dinghies. that comes as the government insists it's stopping the boats as and finally, tens of thousands of airline passengers have seen their flights cancelled today due to the knock on effects of an air traffic control fault . analysis traffic control fault. analysis of flight data shows at least 281 flights have been cancelled at the uk's sixth busiest airports, with gatwick and heathrow worst hit . the heathrow worst hit. the transport secretary told gb news an independent review will take place into how the technical problem began . and mark harper problem began. and mark harper also says he's in touch with the airlines . also says he's in touch with the airlines. this also says he's in touch with the airlines . this is gb news also says he's in touch with the airlines. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's back to . nigel now it's back to. nigel >> well , we

now it's back to. nigel >> well, we are here now it's back to. nigel >> well , we are here literally >> well, we are here literally on the outermost limits of what is now greater london. it used to be kent county council ulez is driving people absolutely mad. they're finding any way they possibly can to avoid paying they possibly can to avoid paying the charge. and some of them resorting to means that i would never previously have thought of. in fact , here comes thought of. in fact, here comes george, the former landlord of the blacksmiths arms compliant . the blacksmiths arms compliant. turn it . off turn it. off >> george is this your means of avoiding paying £12.7 >> avoiding paying £12? >> 50? of course . >> 50? of course. >> i mean, otherwise it's going to cost me £24 to come down at my local to have a couple of pints know. >> and what about i mean i guess if it's going to cost you £12.50 to come and come for a pint, it's the same to go to the doctor's the same to go shopping isn't it. >> same to go, same to go to the church, to to the church, same to go to the cemetery. sorry. same to pick up a prescription. to do a prescription. an offer to do me always. me in all always. >> is this compliant, george? >> is this compliant, george? >> well, i don't know. it could

be maybe necessities a mother of invention will suit something out. >> well said, george . i'm now >> well said, george. i'm now going to show you a short package of this area. and what a beautiful part of england it is. and i'll be back with in and i'll be back with you in a couple of minutes time. george, and i'll be back with you in a coupleyou. ninutes time. george, thank you. >> pleasure. >> pleasure. >> this is the furthest point from central london that is considered greater. london authority. i i've got an air monitor here, so we're 4.2 now. go on to the london underground and it goes through the roof. if we're worried about the health of londoners, maybe it's the underground that needs sorting. of londoners, maybe it's the unithis'ound that needs sorting. of londoners, maybe it's the unithis is nd that needs sorting. of londoners, maybe it's the unithis is exceptionally; sorting. of londoners, maybe it's the unithis is exceptionally good ng. so this is exceptionally good air quality, an issue here. air quality, not an issue here. this is a rural area. there are actually in the villages here more horses than there are people. and i have lived in this area all my life. i've never known an issue upset people as much as this ulez extension . much as this ulez extension. why? well, i'll tell you why. because most people that live here are not especially financially well off if we're talking about people running their own little businesses, driving vans, we're talking about pensioners. and many of

these people have got old cars and all and good to and it's all well and good to say. the scrappage coming say. well, the scrappage coming from frankly , it from mayor khan. but frankly, it isn't to buy a new decent isn't enough to buy a new decent car. so it was real, real anger. this ward darwin ward is the most rural in greater london, so named because charles darwin lived and worked here for 40 years. and actually the landscape that you see is completely unchanged from when he was here. indeed, there's actually a bid in for this to become a unesco world heritage site. now i do accept that this is the most rural example in greater london that we could have chosen . but it isn't just have chosen. but it isn't just people living within the zone that affected. it's those that are affected. it's those living counties all living in the counties all around greater london that are affected too . well, there we affected too. well, there we are. >> there we are. it's difficult to believe that this could be greater london, but it is . we've greater london, but it is. we've got a pretty enthusiastic audience here this evening to say the very least. but that does conceal a mask, i think, for many people, considerable

angen >>a angen >> a lot of people here, sadiq khan, will tell you only 1 in 10 cars are not complied with. ulez well, that may be the case in chelsea and kensington. it definitely is not the case in cudham. i can tell you. and there are horseboxes and tractors and many, many other issues. but the great thing for this crowd is i've got a message for you from khan because for you from sadiq khan because chris hope, our political edhon chris hope, our political editor, has come hotfoot from city hall where he's just done an interview with the mayor of london. chris, what did he have to say? >> well, he was he was he said sorry. basically in a way, he's apologetic for people who have had their lives badly affected by this change in policy. but he is he is intent on pushing it through. he sees himself as someone who history will judge as someone who had to take big choices quite near election. choices quite near an election. i it's difficult , i mean, it's difficult, difficult understand if difficult to understand if you're cudham on on you're out in cudham on a on a on a warm ish evening, that what's coming happened today. but i think he feels, though , but i think he feels, though, that he to do it on behalf

that he had to do it on behalf of with children who of families with children who have badly affected bad have been badly affected by bad health. but let's listen to what i'd say on the apology. first of all. yeah i'm sorry for all. yeah i'm always sorry for anybody who's suffering adverse consequences because of our policies. >> but at the same time, i've got to honest with people and got to be honest with people and say i've been meeting bereaved mums who's lost their children because air pollution. i've because of air pollution. i've been a paediatrician been meeting a paediatrician today who works with motor pregnant suffering the consequences because of air pollution babies who pollution and babies who are born suffering consequences. born suffering the consequences. i've today a doctor who runs i've met today a doctor who runs an asthma clinic, but also i visited great ormond street, the in—patient ward at the children's evelina hospital. i met scientists, health practitioners and others. that's why i'm angry that the government's letting down london and the south east. >> so the argument then is about air quality . air quality. >> that's right. and he sees himself as being someone who has to take measures. it's happened in in birmingham other in bath in birmingham and other cities but sees a lack of cities, but he sees a lack of support from central government cities, but he sees a lack of su mitigate n central government cities, but he sees a lack of su mitigate thezntral government cities, but he sees a lack of su mitigate the issues|overnment cities, but he sees a lack of su mitigate the issues here. ment to mitigate the issues here. maybe in cudham other support

for people. george on his for people. paul george on his lawnmower there to get things to come in to get in to go for his pint i mean but he sees himself as a civic leader who is as being a civic leader who is who is trying to do his best. as i said to you, nigel, you know a bit about bravery in politics, and he he could easily have not have done this so near to an election because the conservatives weaponize election because the conservatidone weaponize election because the conservati done here. aponize election because the conservati done here. no nize what he's done here. no question. cudham and question. in cudham and elsewhere. and he does he elsewhere. yeah. and he does he does a leader of does see himself as a leader of a historical line of people who are taking big choices. let's hear what he had to say about his view of history. >> because when it comes to tackling public ill health, i think you've got to take bold action. when you action. but also when you recognise actually between recognise that actually between 2017 2026, the nhs will 2017 and 2026, the nhs will spend £1.6 billion treating people in hospital by 2050. that's going to be north of £10 billion. this policy will save lives and save money. >> so you can't thank you . you >> so you can't thank you. you can't thank you. >> do you know what, chris? i'd say to myself if this action was

genuinely going to save lives , genuinely going to save lives, then i think people might be prepared to pay a bit of a price . but we see from the inner ulez that's been in for the last few years that on particulate matter there has been no change. what so ever, and that nitrous oxide levels have fallen only by 3. and that's actually because new cars have newer engines that are more efficient and have fewer emissions. and my argument back to khan would be that actually in outer london, this is going to be a tax. it's a tax on the elderly, it's a tax on the poor, it's a tax on young drivers who can't afford expensive motorcars for no health benefit whatsoever. that's i think, the real beef about this, isn't it? >> it is. but he it is nice. but he does he does dispute those figures. i mean, he says that he has got evidence to show that there are that the bringing the ulez zone in london has helped

save lives in outer london, too. so he would say against what you're saying there, that there is a case to be made for doing it. he did have one bit of good news. may be this the fears about pay per mile which are raised in the weekend papers he says that will that will not happen. oh right. even even if he do you believe him, everybody? >> well , he that will not everybody? >> well, he that will not happen . it will happen. he's societal ulez homes . ulez homes. >> it won't happen . even if he >> it won't happen. even if he wins the election in may. >> right? well, you know, it started off with it started off with a congestion charge for inner london, then it went to the north and south circular. now it's here we see city after city all over the country, bath , portsmouth, glasgow. you name it. they're already have put in place congest charging. i honestly believe i honestly believe you know that that that pay per believe you know that that that pay per mile is what they really want on the science of it isn't it amazing that the deputy

mayor, shelley rodriguez , went mayor, shelley rodriguez, went back to imperial college who had said that ulez would have little or no impact on the health of children? and she asked them to reword it with 800 grand of money paid for by these people , money paid for by these people, it's all cold science . it's all cold science. >> well, i'm not going to go there and argue science science against side, but there are. there are. yeah, there are . there are. yeah, there are. >> why isn't what i'm asking chris, is it seems to me he's not being challenged on this properly. >> well, he's tried. well he is intent doing. he intent on what he's doing. he looks the lives he says he looks at the lives he says he can and intends to do can save and he's intends to do it. i mean, he is he is definitely you know, he's he's intent on doing this and he has done it. >> and it's but it's what he wants actually, is support from home counties to help home counties counties to help bid for money from the central government. >> it's not going to happen. >> it's not going to happen. >> it's not going to happen. >> it isn't going to happen. >> it isn't going to happen. >> no, it isn't. they want more money help, you know, of money to help, you know, six of the surrounding councils the surrounding county councils and refused and local councils have refused to signs up. to even put signs up. >> move on to the tories. >> let's move on to the tories. as you say, the tories will try

and get electoral benefit out of this. who was it that first this. but who was it that first thought of ulez? who was that thought of ulez? who was it that first approved? thought of ulez? who was it that first apthe ed? thought of ulez? who was it that first apthe blonde bombshell. >> it's the blonde bombshell. nigel it be johnson? nigel would it be boris johnson? >> came up with it when >> so they came up with it when khan said he was to going khan said that he was to going expand it to the outer limits of the gla, then in grant shapps , the gla, then in grant shapps, who was the transport minister was perfectly happy with the proposal and suddenly they realised that people ain't very happy and they do a u—turn . i happy and they do a u—turn. i mean, you have got considerable money and there were political experience. chris are they believable on this in your view? >> there were powers >> well, well, there were powers identified on gb news to try and stop it, but i've been told by mark harper today he took king's council advice and told he couldn't do it. nigel so he did try and look at stopping it, but it's not rubber, it's true. it's not rubbish. no, no, no, no . not rubbish. no, no, no, no. >> it's true . article one, >> it's true. article one, article 143, article 143 of the gla act said that the transport minister could override the mayor of london if there were

two criteria met the first criteria that it would be harmful to those living outside the gla. well, anybody living in a nurse living in kent, working at farnborough hospital, doing night shift, i'll be paying £25 a day that is injurious. that was clear. the first and the first. the second key point was if , if, if it went first. the second key point was if, if, if it went against government policy. so i can only assume if they haven't gone for it, that actually government policy is they do want congestion charging and they do want ulez around the country . i want ulez around the country. i don't know . don't know. >> i think there should be well, i mean, i think if you look, it might go back to the issue of net zero and the issue of getting rid of new new petrol cars after 2030, because how are they going to. >> yeah, the question they've got in politics right now and don't blame me, i'm only covering it for you guys, but what they're trying to do. yeah, yeah, what they're trying to do. yeah, yea no, seriously, know, know that. >> how are they going to fill the coffers from. from fuel tax, but charge that when but they can't charge that when they, got of

they, when they've got rid of them. ev so you look, them. so. ev so you look, they're looking at things like probably pay per mile at some point khan's point is point and sadiq khan's point is it's not doing it in it's not just us doing it in london, it's across the country. and bigger, bigger issue. >> i can say. chris, @ i can say. chris, well >> all i can say. chris, well done for getting the interview with and you with sadiq khan. and thank you very indeed. in a moment, very much indeed. in a moment, we're going to have a debate between somebody passionately opposed who opposed to ulez and somebody who believes really the right believes it really is the right thing do . never it be thing to do. never let it be said on news. we don't give said on gb news. we don't give all points of view a pretty fair airing back with you in a couple of minutes for night

radio. okay, back here with this live crowd in culham. >> it's not raining yet, but we're going to carry on regardless and we're going to debate ulez. >> going to debate the >> we're going to debate the real arguments. real pro and anti arguments. mike rutherford, co founder and chief columnist of auto express, the number selling car the uk's number one selling car magazine and donnacha mccarthy, environmental campaigner, director of the climate media coalition and a man who came here via e—bike. so nobody can call you a hypocrite . domnica call you a hypocrite. domnica domnica. i want you these folk living out here in the most rural ward of the gla , many of rural ward of the gla, many of them are going to pay a very heavy price. why is it worth it? >> well, today is, from my perspective, is a very positive day for london's asthmatics. there are 500,000 asthmatics, people living with asthma in

london and 12 children die every year from asthma in london. i have met the parents of those children and it's heartbreaking . as a child i had asthma , and . as a child i had asthma, and if ever you had an acute asthmatic attack, it's like being smothered by a cushion . so being smothered by a cushion. so the idea the mayor was elected on on a democratic mandate to clean london's air twice , and he clean london's air twice, and he is having the political courage to do that despite the media attack on him. and so in my view, today is a positive day, democracy and a positive day for children in london for cleaner air. now, the idea about poor people is really important, very because two things on that. first of all, the tory government has refused to give londoners the same help. they given poor people in other ulez, in other major cities across britain. so why are they penalising poor people in london? why not giving the same scrappage to londoners as they are in london? is >> london run by the labour >> london is run by the labour party and secondly.

>> well, we have a tory london is by the labour the is run by the labour party. the government funds tories government funds the tories birmingham. the second birmingham. so the second thing about 80% of about poor people is that 80% of poorer londoners do not have a car, but they suffer the impacts of car pollution . and so of car pollution. and so therefore if you care about if you care about poor people , what you care about poor people, what we should do is actually subsidise public transport because poor people in london clean up poor, poor people in london, pay the highest public transport fares in the world. >> but donna, therefore the let's listen. if we were having this debate, we were having this debate in clapham. all right. in south london, what you say would be valid . most people, poor be valid. most people, poor people, certainly in clapham, wouldn't have a car. actually, most middle high earners most middle class high earners in bother in clapham wouldn't bother owning the point? owning a car. what's the point? you you a car for you know, you rent a car for a weekend away or whatever it is when you need it. point is, when you need it. the point is, in areas this, without in areas like this, without a car, can't exist . isn't that car, you can't exist. isn't that the point? >> 70% of 80% of london poor londoners don't have a car. it's 70. not here. it's 70. you're

right. it's 70. in outer london. it's nearly 85% in inner london. so 70% of poorer people in outer london do not have a car and they're paying the highest transport, public transport fares in the world. >> there is no public transport here. that's the point. there's hardly any public. mike rutherford. mike rutherford. donna has very passionate . you donna has very passionate. you know, he believes that there can be benefits for asthmatics. i question that . given that the question that. given that the ulez to the north and south circle has made almost no difference to air quality at all, generally the air in london is sight better was is a sight better than it was 5100 years ago. we're very grateful for that. of course, what would your argument against the ulez as the ulez extension be or ulez as a well i you know who a whole? well i you know who doesn't want a clean air? >> we all do this notion that somehow the motorist is happy to live with dirty air is ridiculous. we don't want that ehhen ridiculous. we don't want that either. but why oh why , oh why either. but why oh why, oh why is the exhaust pipe of the car being blamed for everything, is the exhaust pipe of the car being blamed for everything , for being blamed for everything, for all the pollution? i actually you know , i think i'm have sent

you know, i think i'm have sent it to you at the time, nigel. i wrote a piece in autoexpress which listed the ten major causes of greenhouse gases, and there was everything from energy creation to industry , three to creation to industry, three to agriculture. i have to say . what agriculture. i have to say. what about the lorries, the buses , about the lorries, the buses, the aircraft, the river craft, etcetera, etcetera. so i think we're kidding ourselves. we're kidding ourselves if we think that by curing the problem of the car exhaust pipe, we're going to cure the air pollution and cars are getting better and better, of course. >> i mean, with every year that goes by, new cars are much cleaner and more. but on the point of public health that you've raised and there's no question that it a serious question that it is a serious issue, know, we are in issue, you know, here we are in khartoum, at 4.9 is our khartoum, we're at 4.9 is our current reading on this air metre. as you know, anything current reading on this air metre.ten you know, anything current reading on this air metre.ten isu know, anything current reading on this air metre.ten is consideredithing current reading on this air metre.ten is considered good. if below ten is considered good. if you now went on to the you and i now went on to the district line , this thing would district line, this thing would rock it up to 130, 140. i mean, actually we genuinely , we

actually we genuinely, we genuinely injurious levels. now if the mayor of london was as worried about people's health as he says, i don't think he is. is this to me is about this to me is about tax and control more than anything else. and i believe that. >> but surely if we really worried about public health and asthma and asthma, in particular the millions of people every day that use london underground, it seems he's made no effort to clean it up all. clean it up at all. >> what about the kids who get on underground? >> what about the kids who get on first nderground? >> what about the kids who get on first oferground? >> what about the kids who get on first of all,)und? >> what about the kids who get on first of all, you? >> what about the kids who get on first of all, you make first >> first of all, you make first point is you say you say sadiq khan doesn't believe in this himself. think himself. personally, i think that's because he himself that's unfair because he himself suffers. he he himself suffers from asthma. he identifies from asthma. so he identifies with the half million londoners who suffer from asthma. my next door neighbour is an elderly lady. whenever there's a peak in car pollution in london, she suffers from heart disease and she cannot walk when there's high pollution measures. but hang on, hang on, hang . and hang on, hang on, hang. and secondly, about the secondly, the point about the underground . underground. >> yeah, go on, finish on that. >> so the point about the

underground that, yes, there underground is that, yes, there is high metal pollution on the underground, people underground, but people don't live underground. they do live on the underground. they do believe major roads believe on roads major roads around london. and if you look at map today, look at the at the map today, look at the map today. >> on. bear with bear >> hang on. bear with us. bear with him. please. quiet please. >> if you look a map of london today , including outer london, today, including outer london, you will see the map of where the pollution peaks across london are around the major roads and in outer london today. if you look at the maps, they are breaking the world health organisation safety levels today. well, the only problem there in uxbridge , the only there in uxbridge, the only problem there is we're a bit suspicious of them . suspicious of them. >> final word, mike rutherford . >> final word, mike rutherford. you know, the point being made is that air quality to next next to main roads can be bad. that is a fair point, of course. >> but what is not a fair point is that you blame the lady's asthma problem. you said specifically car pollution. that's what i mean. it's narrowed to down the car. it's not the bus. it's not the truck. it's not the anything else. it's

the car. so we're barking. >> guys, i tell you what, i've tried to make sure you both get a fair a fair crack. >> one last point, nigel. >> one last point, nigel. >> very quick. >> very quick. >> really believe in this, >> if he really believe in this, if he really believed that these cars killing and cars are killing children and others us, would others and harming us, he would say, want your money. say, i don't want your money. i'm to ban the lot of i'm going to ban the lot of them. the reason he's doing it, them. the reason he's doing it, the reason he's doing it, is he wants . wants your. >> a logical argument. >> that is a logical argument. >> that is a logical argument. >> rutherford, donna >> mike rutherford, donna mccarthy, thank you both very much for joining mccarthy, thank you both very much forjoining me for much indeed for joining me for that package. >> let's get the opinion of >> now let's get the opinion of some local people. >> i went out yesterday and filmed some local people who will by will be severely impacted by this . well, there are literally this. well, there are literally more horses than people living in this . part of what is greater in this. part of what is greater london. and this is a real issue . it isn't just local people that ride. people come out from london, underprivileged kids, etcetera. now, ron has been leading, leading protest after protest. what is the big beef with horse riders ? with horse riders? >> i think really it's all the non—compliant vehicles, as you

can see behind us, none of these vehicles are compliant yet. some of them, you know, nothing wrong with them. the scrappage isn't going to cover, you know , new going to cover, you know, new horseboxes and then it affects our hobbies and everybody else from the equestrian industry, like farriers vets that all come in from, you know, like kent, surrey. then our prices will go up. so it's a knock on effect with everybody. >> d let's talk to some horsebox owners, shall we? >> if everyone got rid of their non—compliant horse boxes, there aren't enough transporters to do that and there's not enough encouragement for people to do that. it's hard job to do just that. it's a hard job to do just chatting to people around the village. >> so many people are worried about how much they have to spend to change their car. i don't just use my car for work, i use it for personal use as well. community events like this . speakers this . i'm speakers around this recreation ground, you know, how am i going to do that if i haven't got this car? and the i'm just going to have to spend the a day because i don't the £12.50 a day because i don't want spend £20,000 getting want to spend £20,000 getting rid perfectly car . so

rid of a perfectly good car. so how that going improve air how is that going to improve air quality? it's just quality? it's not. it's just going to put £12.50 in the pocket tax, tax and control. >> that's my theory on it . well, >> that's my theory on it. well, there we are. >> taxi control. that's my belief. i don't think it's going to make any difference to air quality. >> i thank the gentleman for coming having passion on coming in and having passion on both the debate. in both sides of the debate. in a moment, the hot seat, the moment, in the hot seat, the leader council, colin leader of bromley council, colin smith, you in a couple smith, back with you in a couple

>> you're listening to newsradio

. back here with this very enthused tastic audience in cudham . cudham. >> i did say to them before the show, don't be backwards at coming forwards with your views. well they're certainly not being that this evening. now i'm joined colin smith joined by councillor colin smith , borough of , leader of the borough of bromley. you have been since 2017. i know that you and several of the other boroughs had a legal action and had a go with a legal action and you didn't succeed. you had a go and i think people respected you for trying that. but but for trying to do that. but but colin, you know, you're representing the conservative party and i want to put this to you. boris johnson was the man who go for ulez . who said we should go for ulez. it was rubber stamped through the department of transport when khan said he was going to extend it edges of the gla it to the outer edges of the gla . and then when you had the chance, when your party not you personally, but when your party had the chance to invoke article 143 of the greater london act and literally stop it dead yet khan could have gone for judicial review . he could have judicial review. he could have challenged it, but it would have

pushed it beyond the mayoral elections. next may prevented a load of damage. they didn't do it. why should we trust the conservative on ulez? i think two things i would say nigel. >> first of all, regarding grant shapps rubber stamping it, etcetera , and you can check this etcetera, and you can check this out on the internet, youtube fact check what he was actually referring to in the much vaunted letter from 2020 was extending the then ulez scheme to the north and south. circular boundanes north and south. circular boundaries are not the perimeters of outer london and thatis perimeters of outer london and that is actually on the web if people want to. so that's a dispute then between shapps and between the mayor of london. absolutely. and there is qualitative comment from seniors in the party about that . in the party about that. regarding section article 143, the 1999 act, i must say i was very, very disappointed when i found that was being used as a reason, not to do anything. yeah i've been speaking to fairly senior mps today on that point

because one of the things the government, if i might make so bold and make myself very unpopular, hasn't done particularly well hitherto is explain. mr harper's position. so that everybody can understand it hasn't done particularly well. >> i've no idea what it is and what they will say and what you will be seeing pr on about this is an explanation as to why they can't invoke that , which in can't invoke that, which in short runs to the fact that whilst part b and damage to neighbouring counties is filled , i'm told that the reason you can't invoke section a is because what khan has done doesn't run again against any existing policy because there isn't a policy. existing policy because there isn't a policy . well, isn't it isn't a policy. well, isn't it about time? isn't it about time? after 13 years in government, there was a blooming policy. >> well, you wouldn't find me arguing with that. >> well, no . well, okay, fine. >> well, no. well, okay, fine. colin, i think you and i think i'm very similar lines to this. and you're clearly embarrassed

by your own party on this. but i can see what's going to happen. we're going the mayoral we're going to have the mayoral elections next may. elections coming up next may. we're going to be told vote for the conservatives susan the conservatives vote for susan hull. of her, but hull. never heard of her, but never mind vote for susan hull and all is going to be well. my question you is, why should question to you is, why should we susan why should we trust susan hall? why should we trust susan hall? why should we conservatives, we trust the conservatives, given, got given, as you say, they've got no position this? no real position on this? >> well, i think two things. first foremost, just lord first and foremost, just lord moylan, daniel is in the throes of moving on, albeit perhaps after the event action through the house of lords to tack on to an existing bill that will stop this happening again. >> but a bit late for him, isn't it? it's just too late for cousin on it. >> is it. is it is too late for him on this example. but what it will do if it's successful and if we can get cross—party cooperation , it will be to stop cooperation, it will be to stop road price charging going. all right. well, that's clearly where he's going. no, no, no. i get that. so but that's leg one. your question is a fair one. how

does that help for the next eight months before susan does or doesn't get in? clearly or doesn't get in? it clearly doesn't , as things stand. but doesn't, as things stand. but what you will look for after the queen's speech and after parliament comes back in november , november is a big november, november is a big pardon. i will do that. don't worry. do pardon. it certainly is. after all those years. it certainly is . bless him and her. certainly is. bless him and her. well done . yes. but what we well done. yes. but what we would hopefully look for if there is cross—party agreement and bear in mind, there are an awful lot of very embarrassed, very awkward feeling. labour candidate for the general election next year . there will election next year. there will be a lot of people who had thought it was going to be a shoo in and what we're hoping is if we can get cross—party support, i hope you do, we'll do. >> but i hope you do. but i'm appalled that we're well where we are. final thought. up until 1965, darwin ward. this ward, the most rural ward in the gla and biggin hill ward, were both part of sevenoaks district

council and kent county council. the boundary changes brought us back it. the boundary changes brought us back it . let's have a look back into it. let's have a look at the front page of today's evening standard, please, if you can that for me. there it can put that up for me. there it is . gotcha. can put that up for me. there it is. gotcha. london's green dream comes alive . do you know what comes alive. do you know what that tells me, colin? that tells me that the needs and desires of people that live in inner london, in urban london are completely different from those living in rural greater london. and i put it to you, why should the people that live in darwin ward and no disrespect to you, as leader of bromley, but why should the people that live in darwin and bickenhill ward darwin ward and bickenhill ward not it, we not say the hell with it, we want leave the greater london want to leave the greater london authority kent . see authority and rejoin kent. see you later . you later. >> i have to say , i have to say >> i have to say, i have to say i didn't know. i hadn't. i hadnt i didn't know. i hadn't. i hadn't road tested that it feels like brexit all over again. but that's not well as you know where i am on that . where i am on that. >> you see my point?

>> you see my point? >> yeah. allow me to answer. i mean what what we, what we have clearly got is a zone one mayor who uses outer london as a cashpoint machine. we've seen it for years. this just exemplifies it. he knows it doesn't matter what he does to outer london because he knows he doesn't get his votes here. so that's what we're suffering from. but as far as your question is concerned, which is good one, and a lot which is a good one, and a lot of people ask it with increasing regularity, is it will take a change of primary legislation to unpick the law from 1964 come five. i can't you colin, can't do that. >> no , i can't. >> no, i can't. >>— >> no, i can't. >> no. but what i would recommend anybody that did want it to think in terms of unpicking it, start lobbying your mps . that's the only way your mps. that's the only way your mps. that's the only way you can get pressure on it. yeah. and i think in all honesty, nigel, i've something i've been arguing for very strongly for many years is give people the choice. yeah. >> okay. no no, that's fair enough. >> one size doesn't fit all. no,

no . 110. >> no. >> well, that evening, standard front page, the editorials were reading show in a london where people don't need cars, don't own cars, and out here in cudham and biggin hill, where without a car can't really exist . car you can't really exist. ladies gentlemen, big round ladies and gentlemen, big round for colin for the council leader, colin smith. thank you. smith. please thank you. >> now . we're now >> now. we're now at 2.5 on the reading . we've got some of the reading. we've got some of the sadiq. we've got some of the cleanest air in the world here. we could be on the matterhorn in a moment. >> it's going to be the turn for the audience in a moment. it's going to be farage. well farage the farage from farage at large. and colin's agreed to stay with me for this, which is terrific. see you in a couple of minutes time .

okay, let's go . okay, let's go. >> it's barrage. the farage. i've got their names. >> i have absolutely no idea what alan cooke is about to ask me. alan >> hi, nigel. it's great to see you outside downing street today. but obviously we'd rather have you inside downing street . have you inside downing street. but yeah, my question to you is ihave but yeah, my question to you is i have a 22 year old bmw that is compliant. i have got a 46 year old, 4.2l jaguar that is only really good for driving between petrol garages and that's

compliant . how petrol garages and that's compliant. how is this petrol garages and that's compliant . how is this actually compliant. how is this actually helping pollution? the ulez? >> well, it's a good point. there was a 1934 austin in the car park here earlier and that's compliant. yeah no, colin it is quite confusing for people isn't it, because wasn't it the case that actually we were told 20 years ago that diesel engines were better for the environment than petrol engines? so should we, colin, should we trust anybody in national government? >> i hope you can trust the government. but as far as this scheme goes, you're all missing, not missing the point. you need to focus on the point. this is not about health. it's a tax raising scam and he's making it up along. up as he goes along. >> i think that's right, adam. i mean, given given given the case that you've just put, what else can it be there is no other answer. >> it is a tax generation on the poon >> it is a tax generation on the poor, on the poor, on the elderly, on the young, on the disabled, and many, many others. >> right. barbara you're up next. >> i just wanted to ask if you

felt that property prices would be impacted on the outer boroughs with the ulez. >> yeah, there will be an impact on property prices . how big it on property prices. how big it will be, i don't know . they've will be, i don't know. they've been falling a tiny bit anyway , been falling a tiny bit anyway, but given that net migration into the country is running at 600,000 a year, the one thing i'm pretty certain of is that anything from the middle market down to the bottom end of the market isn't going to fall that far on a simple basis of demand and supply. but does it have an impact yet on a house here in cudham? yeah, i think it possibly does. i think it possibly does. i think it possibly does. i think it possibly does. but i don't think it's going to be particularly dangerous. is it something you're of? you're fearful of? >> but i think the prices >> yes, but i think the prices are dropping a bit in the area anyway. so you just have to wait and i suppose. and see, i suppose. >> yeah , there are many other >> yeah, there are many other economic of course, economic factors, of course, that affect house prices. that could affect house prices. now have the conservative now we did have the conservative candidate for mayor of london on

the previous gb news programme and asking a question. here is somebody who's been campaigning on cars and car issues for a i can't think how many years howard cox has been director of the fair fuel alliance and he is running as london mayor for reform uk . so we've got plenty reform uk. so we've got plenty of balance on this programme. um, we've had we've had sadiq khan, we've had susan hall. howard has got a question for us. >> us. >> hello, nigel. yeah it's a very, very simple one. we've been treated like, well i won't say the word because we don't, we do that, but let's face it, it's been dishonestly thrown at us from all directions by sadiq khan. he should be khan. do you think he should be subject an independent, subject to an independent, statutory public inquiry inquiry ? well, you know , you know, the ? well, you know, you know, the idea the idea that we can hold politicians to account for either breaking national manifestos or for not telling the truth is a difficult one. >> you could argue that boris johnson, in the end did lose his job as prime minister for not telling the truth. and what i went to washington dc the week

after boris had gone, the american media said, goodness me, if not telling the truth appued me, if not telling the truth applied in washington, there'd be no one left in congress at all. you know, i think really the answer in any democracy is the answer in any democracy is the only way you really satisfy this is by voting people out at the next election. and that really is the answer . the next election. and that really is the answer. but i just think i just think tonight here on the rural outer edges of what is now the gla , i think there's is now the gla, i think there's a different question here tonight . i a different question here tonight. i just don't think these wards should be part of greater london. i just think we're in a very, very different place. but howard, good luck with the campaign. good luck to all the candidates in the campaign. you're in for a busy couple months is for november couple of months is for november , tony. >> okay . now we are being >> okay. now we are being balanced here, colin, aren't we? >> we are very balanced. >> we are very balanced. >> good, good, good, good , good, >> good, good, good, good, good, good. now, conrad has a question

for us. >> conrad good evening, nigel. if we've left the eu, why is sadiq khan using an eu directive for emissions right now ? for emissions right now? >> i thought if i was to come up with euro six and euro two and all the different criteria that have been agreed on emissions, even though we've got brexit, i might be seen as something of a conspiracy theorist. however conrad raises a very serious point here, that when we were members of the european union, we signed up to a whole lot of actually quite long term commitments that in many ways go beyond general elections. and i think to me and i'm going to get your answer in a moment on this , but to me, i think one of the slight disappointments of this is we haven't really broken away from eu law in the way that i think many brexiteers had hoped. and goodness me, it is actually now seven years ago, i have to

come back to you, colin, on this . i mean, you know, conrad's right. we did agree at a european level to a whole series of reductions , and you could of reductions, and you could argue that khan is enforcing that. argue that khan is enforcing that . but a argue that khan is enforcing that. but a more, more general point , we that. but a more, more general point, we haven't really quite got the brexit we voted for, have we? >> nigel? i tend to agree with you . it wasn't as clean. i think you. it wasn't as clean. i think as many as as many of us were hoping. and the northern ireland situation in particular, i think has long been a bugbear that has potentially held us back. so it hasn't been a fully satisfactory exit , wished it had been cleaner exit, wished it had been cleaner myself . myself. >> do you fear that a labour government and it looks like we i mean, if you believe the polls or even half believe the polls, it looks like we're going to get sir keir starmer oh, sorry, we can't call him sir anymore. he doesn't like that. but we're going to get keir starmer as prime minister. you fear prime minister. do you fear that, you know, he might try and bnng that, you know, he might try and bring towards eu? bring us back towards the eu? >> better him sir >> well, we better call him sir keir starmer then, haven't we? but but it's a good one to win

for the conservatives next year. it's not looking great at the moment. a year is a long time. never say never. we start second favourites. i think from here, but with keir starmer move us back into the eu . i don't know, back into the eu. i don't know, he says not do we believe him ? he says not do we believe him? >> well, yeah. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. conrad, you've raised a very important and a slightly complex point, but an important point. what's your thought on it? >> well, i think we should have used some of the experts in this country, imperial college country, like imperial college and in places and king's college in places like yeah the imperial college. >> you, of course, got all the modelling wrong when it came to the pandemic and pretty much everything wrong . but mind you, everything wrong. but mind you, you know, they were told, of course, to rewrite the report, but the deputy mayor of london and that is the science this is based on and that makes me very, very angry. final question very angry. the final question goes , it's going to be a corker. goes, it's going to be a corker. it goes to jacqui. yay

>> hey, guys, do you think the current government and not opposing the ulez scheme more vigorously at the moment because they they wish to use this with their manifesto in the next general election. >> jacqui, you are so cynical, cynical about politicians, political figures . do you know? political figures. do you know? i actually think that is absolutely i believe that is absolutely i believe that is absolutely right that the tory party will try and use this at the mayoral election when you'll be told that susan hall was opposed to all of this. right from the word go that the tory party are to be believed on this and i think it's very cynical. and my i guess what really upsets me a bit on this is by then an enormous amount of damage will have been done . and damage will have been done. and i would like to have seen i would love to have seen one 4—3 being invoked because what that would have meant is that khan would have meant is that khan would have meant is that khan would have had to challenge it through a judicial review , and through a judicial review, and that would have taken months and

months and months to come to court . and we could have gone court. and we could have gone into the next mayoral elections without this ulez extension being place. i'm pretty being in place. so i'm pretty angry. that's your view angry. clearly, that's your view to . to. >> absolutely. and i'm a tory through and through. yeah. i wouldn't vote for him again. >> no, it very, very, >> yeah. no, it is very, very, very, very, very, very disappointing . disappointing. >> so there we have it . >> so there we have it. >> so there we have it. >> to sum up , to sum up >> to sum up, to sum up tonight's debate, colin, there's clearly some enormous passions in this room. and, you know, i've lived, as you know, i've lived in these villages all of my life. i don't think i've ever seen quite such a level of engagement in current affairs issues and anger. i've never and goodness me, i mean, outside downing street earlier . let's downing street earlier. let's have a look. let's have a quick look at me outside downing street earlier on today, tonight. and this was this was really interesting. i was amazed

. i was just sort of almost at random driving down whitehall. and i came across this and i really, really found it hard to believe. right. let's have a look at this clip, please. of me outside downing street earlier. so there i was. and she was sort of she was an outlier. she should have ran out to meet me by the way, folks, it's not raining here. so we saw that and people were, you know, a lot of people were, you know, a lot of people were, you know, a lot of people were going past bibbing, etcetera . but the sheer the etcetera. but the sheer the sheer level of passion and how was there earlier? and 1 or 2 others in the crowd were there earlier. the sheer level of passion in the crowd really was something to behold, and we then, as i came back through south london, through coney hall , saw cameras being erected and for those at home that think it's just for coming in and out of greater london, no is if you live in the zone, you live inside the zone and you pop out of the shops, you've got to pay

the £12.50 and then we actually sent out our team out around south london to look at cameras that had been spray painted and 1 or 2 that have been, you know, cut down and filled in with concrete . so there's going to be concrete. so there's going to be an epic battle , an epic battle an epic battle, an epic battle between those that wish to break the law and cause criminal damage. and those going around putting up the cameras. and i'm not to going take sides on that at all. that would be completely and utterly wrong for me to do so . but yeah, huge passion there so. but yeah, huge passion there in downing street today. and this story of vandalism of cameras, well, you know what they say when laws become enemies of men , men become enemies of men, men become enemies of men, men become enemies of men, men become enemies of laws. and i am not supporting in any way the action. i can't support the action. i can't support the action. i can't support the action. i simply can't do it. but, you know, i want to say, colin smith, thank you very much for coming along this evening. i want to thank all of our guests for coming on and giving us a range of opinions this evening. thank the audience for being so

engaged and we're going to finish with a little ditty about the mayor of london from berlin's berlin . berlin's berlin. >> this is the worst decision from a london mayor. he's taxing the poor, he says, for cleaner air. >> but the public have spoken. and now your cameras are broken. he's about as unpopular as tony blair can't ulez is so unfair. but for £12.50, a camper loot the air, your card will stay in the air, your card will stay in the garage. if you don't pay the silly charge, we should sack him and replace him with nigel . and replace him with nigel. farage hey, hey, hey. >> it's all reduces just how it is . the mayor >> it's all reduces just how it is. the mayor is a clown. >> it's all reduces just how it is. the mayor is a clown . and is. the mayor is a clown. and i to you says just as it is, this man is ruined.

>> london town. it's not just always on the ball. nice to say comes policy is detrimental to say this is a tax on poorer society to save businesses that simply won't be able to survive. nigel . nigel. farage one. >> the temperature's rising boxt solar probe sponsors of weather on .

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