away. good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show live from the conservative party conference in manchester. >> as you'd imagine, we've got a line up of big guests for you as even line up of big guests for you as ever. i'm to going be speaking to michael gove, the levelling up to michael gove, the levelling up secretary, about the up secretary, about whether the government should really be scrapping leg of scrapping the northern leg of hs2. i'm also going to be speaking to former home secretary priti who'll secretary priti patel, who'll give take on how her give us her take on how her successor in the role suella braverman might be braverman is doing. we might be at the tory party conference, but we'll also hearing but we'll also be hearing from labour backbencher

labour senior backbencher stephen timms will fill us in on what their what to look out for from their conference liverpool next conference in liverpool next week. taking the week. and i'll be taking the temperature of the party with a special people panel this week live the tory members and live with the tory members and i'm going to be joined by my colleague at the telegraph, the papers paper's political editor, ben riley smith. he's not got a great new book out which spills the on the last years the beans on the last 13 years of rule and he'll be of tory rule and he'll be revealing all to me later. first of though, let's run of all, though, let's run through those front pages as you can imagine, the conference does dominate in a number of key cabinet ministers have out dominate in a number of key cabiabout nisters have out dominate in a number of key cabiabout basedi have out dominate in a number of key cabiabout based hinckley out dominate in a number of key cabiabout based hinckley talking and about based hinckley talking about what they think this conference should bring, what they sunak should do they think rishi sunak should do about of different about all sorts of different issues. about all sorts of different issues . let's in nigel issues. and let's bring in nigel nelson now . gb news senior nelson now. gb news is senior political commentator , former political commentator, former political commentator, former political the sunday political editor of the sunday mirror the people to mirror and the sunday people to talk through nigel, talk us through them. nigel, how lovely to see you in manchester. you too . we made it despite the you too. we made it despite the train. indeed strikes. we did. we got up here last night. we've had breakfast. gone we got up here last night. we've had the'eakfast. gone we got up here last night. we've had the papers. gone we got up here last night. we've had the papers . gone we got up here last night. we've had the papers . let's gone we got up here last night. we've had the papers . let's getne through the papers. let's get started now. i've called this section. trust ?

section. who can you trust? because there lot of because there are a lot of stories papers about this stories in the papers about this caucus , very much caucus of tories, very much augned caucus of tories, very much aligned to boris johnson and liz truss signing letter at the truss signing this letter at the beginning of conference. nigel, i mean, it's the last thing rishi sunak needs , basically rishi sunak needs, basically saying not support any saying we will not support any budget that puts taxes up further , which could mean that further, which could mean that they've a working majority they've got a working majority to overturn the government's majority on the budget if they vote against it. so if they don't like what hunt is don't like what jeremy hunt is going in the autumn, going to produce in the autumn, they're revolt . they're going to revolt. >> yes. i mean, interesting that the tory conference hasn't even got yet. we've a got going yet. and we've had a rebellion . and also be it's rebellion. and also be it's cunous rebellion. and also be it's curious about what liz truss is actually up to . i mean, does she actually up to. i mean, does she have some deluded idea she might be leader again something be leader again or something like that? >> deluded, there >> it's deluded, but there has been whisper that she been a bit of a whisper that she does she can back does think she can come back and run leadership again if run for the leadership again if rishi the next rishi sunak loses the next general election. yeah, that's fanciful. >> well, i think there's an awful lot of people in the queue at the moment that we've got suella braverman. we've got priti got kemi priti patel, we've got kemi badenoch on moderate

badenoch and on the moderate side, tom tugendhat is , is side, tom tugendhat is, is they're thinking about it. so penny mordaunt. penny mordaunt of course , yes. so there's an of course, yes. so there's an awful lot of sort of leaders in waiting moment i >> and generally, what do you think the of this think the mood of this conference said conference is? nigel i said earlier to breakfast, i thought it or break. i it was quite make or break. i think rishi sunak has got a huge amount of pressure on him to deliver great on deliver a great speech on wednesday think still wednesday. i think they're still putting touches on putting the finishing touches on that. thrown some that. he's actually thrown some red meat to the right in terms of this net zero climbdown. but does he need do more? does he need to do more? >> yes, of course he does. i'm really curious about about why he's back on giving us he's holding back on giving us an announcement on hs2 . and i do an announcement on hs2. and i do wonder if that might be a flourish in his own conference speech on wednesday. but it'll be a weird flourish to be in manchester, basically saying, and hs2 , we and we're not finishing hs2, we are okay. he could come up and say we are or we're not, but we're giving them the to money various northern projects. i don't know. but it just seems a peculiar situation , ian, to peculiar situation, ian, to start conference with this start the conference with this question mark over whether hs2

will get to where we are. will ever get to where we are. >> yeah, we'll be asking michael gove about that a bit later because obviously the because obviously he's the levelling secretary. one levelling up secretary. one might question how can levelling up secretary. one mig level question how can levelling up secretary. one mig level up question how can levelling up secretary. one mig level up if question how can levelling up secretary. one mig level up if youition how can levelling up secretary. one mig level up if you don't|ow can levelling up secretary. one mig level up if you don't finishn you level up if you don't finish hs2 in the north? let's talk about some these interviews about some of these interviews that cabinet that the various cabinet ministers let's talk ministers have given. let's talk about braverman versus rocket man, because she's basically taken on sir elton john. is this a good idea from home a good idea from the home secretary? a good idea from the home secprobably mean, a good idea from the home sec probably mean, what >> probably not. i mean, what she is part of she calls elton john is part of an out—of—touch, pampered elite. >> are we in that, nigel? are we? >> well, it depends where you where you stand. and what suella braverman said last week in washington. right. but but the this pampered elite would presumably include the various tory mps who were horrified about her speech, especially the demonising of vulnerable women and gay people. yes and they've already complained to the chief whip. >> do you think it's dog whistle politics? >> yes, absolutely. yeah. there was no need for that. is she not just channelling what people watching and listening watching this show and listening to think that actually

to the show think that actually the situation's out control, the situation's out of control, that we've been too that we've been far too generous, that our borders have been we need been far too porous and we need to grip of this situation. to get a grip of this situation. >> not inhumane. >> it's not inhumane. it's saying, crack on saying, look, crack down on illegal migration and make sure that migration that legal migration works. >> i understand she's >> yeah, i understand what she's getting agree. in getting at. and i do agree. in fact, it was worth going to washington because you need an international on this. international debate on this. yeah. migration is a global problem. it can only really be solved globally. so that part i agree her not when you agree with her not when you start demonising using the likes of lgbt migrants. >> is she doing that? is >> well, is she doing that? is she just she's trying to say. although to fair, i think the although to be fair, i think the statistics don't quite up statistics don't quite hold up on they but on this. yeah, they don't. but there who are there are some people who are claiming to be persecuted because sexuality . and because of their sexuality. and actually that's the case. we actually that's not the case. we have a few have heard from quite a few immigration lawyers. one immigration lawyers. there's one in week saying he in the mail last week saying he reckoned 70% of claims were spurious. >> well, okay. it's still >> well, okay. but it's still going a small number. going to be a small number. i mean, talking about mean, you're talking about 75,000 asylum claims last year. yeah those, only 1300 yeah of those, only 1300 mentioned sexual city. now, if a few of them were gaming the

system, that's still not very many people. it's not like the idea that loads of people are coming over pretending to be gay to try and get into the country because such a small because it is such a small number people, that number of people, was that a leadership pitch? there's leadership pitch? yes, there's no about it. i think no question about it. i think that we've got all these leaders now queuing suella now queuing up and suella braverman one of which braverman is one of them, which must make rishi sunak feel a bit uncomfortable because what they're saying is, look, election putting election lost, we're now putting our dogs, our ducks in a row to try and try and capture the election . election. >> lost the opinion polling in the observer , which is more on the observer, which is more on your side of the ideological fence, let's say is quite positive for the tories. only ten points behind in the summer. they were as much as 27. i think . yeah. >> i mean, the polls have been closing down and probably i think you're right in what you said opening that it's said in your opening that it's probably with with probably a lot to do with with rishi sunak climate change initiatives or rather scrapping climate. the scrapping net zero targets. so they just need to scrap iht next, clarify whether

or not a woman can have a penis and they've won in 2024. yeah, i wish it was as easy as that. we both know politics doesn't work quite well. >> don't about that, >> i don't know about that, nigel. like nigel. it seems to work like that as far as the headline writers concerned. let's writers are concerned. let's talk on the talk about shapps going on the defensive. actually talk about shapps going on the defensiv he actually talk about shapps going on the defensiv he doesn't actually talk about shapps going on the defensiv he doesn't mean ally talk about shapps going on the defensiv he doesn't mean boots saying? he doesn't mean boots on the fighting in ukraine. the ground fighting in ukraine. no, doesn't. no, he doesn't. >> mean , what grant shapps >> no. i mean, what grant shapps is talking about is we already train troops train 20,000 ukrainian troops over here. and what he's talking aboutis over here. and what he's talking about is sending our trainers to ukraine. trouble about that is it really would be a very dangerous thing to do just to have british troops inside ukraine. there may be some special forces there. they've never confirmed yes. but to never confirmed it. yes. but to have them there because the way that ukraine can go wrong is probably if there's an accident, it's something like russian troops mistakenly crossing the border into a nato country. so poland mistake shooting down an aircraft or something like that. but those are the kind of mistakes that could escalate it. and i think the danger of

putting albeit putting people in, albeit trainers who are there trainers who are not there to fight, it's what happens if perhaps they do do itjust seems perhaps they do do it just seems to be that's one way of making the war escalate. i mean, is this shapps trying to flex his muscles there's little muscles because there's a little bit doubt him being bit of doubt over him being given role. given that defence role. >> any history >> he doesn't have any history in had about in the military. he's had about 18 cabinet. 18 different jobs in cabinet. maybe he's just trying to be punchy and bit wallace punchy and a bit ben wallace esque. i'm sure he is flexing >> yeah, i'm sure he is flexing his muscles, but i think the important thing about grant shapps the overall shapps is that the overall policy on ukraine has not changed. yes we are still foursquare behind ukraine. that won't change under grant shapps any more than it changed under ben wallace. so i think that he's trying to show that this kind of support is just the way he's doing. it increases the risk over there. yeah, talking about people who are at the top normally of con con poles. >> so back in the day, ben wallace always used to come out on top when tory voters and members were asked, would members were asked, who would you party? the you like to lead the party? the other on top you like to lead the party? the ot kemi on top you like to lead the party? the ot kemi badenoch. on top you like to lead the party? the ot kemi badenoch. she'son top you like to lead the party? the ot kemi badenoch. she's talking is kemi badenoch. she's talking about echr . i mean, this is

about the echr. i mean, this is again bit meat being again a bit of red meat being thrown to the right. she seems to be suggesting i'm to be suggesting and i'm intrigued this intrigued because this is appearing in all the appearing in all of the different interviews, oh, we can't off table . we can't take it off the table. we just extrapolate that for people listening watching, listening and watching, nigel, because all of these because clearly all of these cabinet have fed because clearly all of these c.lineet have fed because clearly all of these c.line about have fed because clearly all of these c.line about the have fed because clearly all of these c.line about the havethat fed because clearly all of these c.line about the havethat they a line about the echr that they are trying to leave the door open to us leaving it. >> yes, i think we're being softened up just that softened up for just that purpose . i softened up for just that purpose. i mean, again, purpose. i mean, that's again, part of what what suella braverman doing over in braverman was doing over in washington week because she washington last week because she was raising the prospect of leaving the refugee convention. now, the european court of human rights is in their sights. i think it would be a huge mistake to do something like that. we can't just start leaving international institutions because we don't agree with certain decisions. and where is our moral standing in the world if we do ? if we leave echr, it if we do? if we leave echr, it puts us on a par with russia and belarus. and do we really want to be in that in that kind of club? but it does seem to me that we are nudging towards that

. so all that has to happen is echr tries to block rwanda and they'll then pull us out. do you know what? >> a while ago, a long time ago, when michael fallon was still defence secretary, i remember having with him having a conversation with him where shouldn't where he said we shouldn't leave the just the the eu, we should just leave the echr actually that is echr and actually maybe that is a . well, no, mean a solution. well, no, i mean from perspective of it's from the perspective of it's largely the brexiteers calling for . the of the for this. it's the right of the party the keeps on party saying the echr keeps on getting in way. it keeps on getting in the way. it keeps on thwarting do thwarting what we want to do with are with our migrants. there are others who say, well, we can get around actually think around that and actually i think the is the mood music from sunak is very well, supreme very much, well, the supreme court ruling, but court can have its ruling, but we're we want we're going to do what we want anyway, with anyway, a little bit like with prisoner voting. yeah >> i mean, the thing i >> i mean, the only thing i would say is that the echr we actually more than half the actually win more than half the cases that before it, actually win more than half the cases that before it , that we cases that go before it, that we lose some win some. but that's the point of having an international court. yes. and what happens to countries who say have ethical foreign say have an ethical foreign policy want to trade policy and don't want to trade with ? policy and don't want to trade witiright. ? policy and don't want to trade witiright. talk about >> right. let's talk about michael taking the michael michael gove taking the michael gove he's gove said, because he's basically he just he's basically saying he just he's

saying having a go at keir saying he's having a go at keir starmer saying, know, starmer and saying, you know, where net zero? where where is he on net zero? where is these issues? is he on any of these issues? which fair comment, but which might be fair comment, but it's michael it's not exactly as if michael gove is some kind of, you know , gove is some kind of, you know, eco eco hawk . he's eco dove. he's an eco hawk. he's criticising himself here. >> he is indeed. yes. but. but michael gove is very skilled at toeing the line . so what you toeing the line. so what you said you can always just said before, you can always just sort change slightly to sort of change slightly to accommodate whatever the current politics is . politics is. >> yeah, well, i'll be asking him about this because i'm confused now because he was the one who said absolutely not. we will be delaying the petrol will not be delaying the petrol and diesel ban and then suddenly , sunak has , of course rishi sunak has delayed we'll him delayed it. so we'll ask him for his to might ask his reaction to that. might ask him a couple of questions about boris, suggested boris, because he suggested in this sunday this piece in the sun on sunday that on speaking that they're back on speaking terms they've a terms and that they've had a long at an event. long chat at an event. >> love to know what >> we'd love to know what they're other. >> we'd love to know what the�* i'll other. >> we'd love to know what the�*i'll ask other. >> we'd love to know what the�*i'll ask him. other. >> we'd love to know what the�*i'll ask him. i'll other. >> we'd love to know what the�*i'll ask him. i'll askther. >> i'll ask him. i'll ask him. nigel, me final nigel, just give me a final overview this conference overview of this conference wednesday. rishi wednesday. i, i think rishi sunakisin wednesday. i, i think rishi sunak is in a stronger position now , certainly than he was in now, certainly than he was in the do you think? the summer. what do you think? >> i'm not sure. i think >> well, i'm not sure. i think that that what he's got to do is

try unite a party that seems try and unite a party that seems determined to tear itself apart. if you can achieve that at this conference, i think he will be pleased when it comes down to the wider public, how many people actually are concerned about what happens at conference. we're about conference. we're talking about a 13 years, tired government . a 13 years, a tired government. yes. the idea of any big new ideas coming fonnard i think is unlikely . uniting his party has unlikely. uniting his party has got to be his first goal. >> tories in having to unite party shock is the headline from manchester this morning from nigel nelson. thank you very much indeed joining this much indeed for joining me this morning. to you. morning. lovely to see you. well, on mentioning it, well, i keep on mentioning it, don't to be joined don't i? i'm going to be joined by “p don't i? i'm going to be joined by up secretary by levelling up secretary michael gove in just minute. michael gove in just a minute. will to shed any will he be able to shed any light the north light on whether the north will be a speed rail be getting a high speed rail line? that back after the weather. >> hello, i'm marco petagna . >> hello, i'm marco petagna. here's your latest weather update from the met office . update from the met office. we'll see a mixed bag of weather across over next few across the uk over the next few days. seeing some days. most of us seeing some rain when the sun days. most of us seeing some rain through when the sun days. most of us seeing some rain through it when the sun days. most of us seeing some rain through it should| the sun days. most of us seeing some rain through it should feel sun pops through it should feel fairly warm for the time of yean

fairly warm for the time of year. bit of a three year. we've got a bit of a three way weather across way split weather wise across the today. a the uk through the day today. a slow rain slow moving band of rain affecting of affecting wales, parts of northern , the north northern england, the north midlands, at times working midlands, even at times working into southwest of into the far southwest of england. some of that rain england. there some of that rain heavy tending heavy for a while, but tending to ease as we go into the afternoon, whereas towards the south—east brighter afternoon, whereas towards the south—e mostly brighter afternoon, whereas towards the south—e mostly brhere r afternoon, whereas towards the south—emostly brhere and picture, mostly fine here and brighter 1 showers brighter with 1 or 2 showers towards northwest towards the north and northwest . the sunshine towards . but in the sunshine towards the becoming the south—east becoming quite warm. temperatures peaking warm. temperatures here peaking at 23 or 24 celsius amid 70s in fahrenheit and even towards the north at 17 or 18 degrees. it's pretty for the time year pretty warm for the time of year as head the evening as we head through the evening and overnight, rain and overnight, that band of rain continues affect some central continues to affect some central and parts uk . and southern parts of the uk. fairly patchy rain here and i think southeast should think the far southeast should against a fine with some clear spells, clearer spells spells, with clearer spells towards north northwest towards the north and northwest and showers once again and a few showers once again toward northwest the toward the far northwest of the uk night in the south at uk. a warm night in the south at 15 or degrees, a little bit 15 or 16 degrees, a little bit fresher towards the north at near a to celsius as as near a 10 to 11 celsius as as for monday, well, once again, outbreaks of rain affect some central and southern parts of the tending the uk. if anything, tending to p°p the uk. if anything, tending to pop the day in some

pop up through the day in some parts. so some heavy bursts developing across parts of wales, and locally wales, the midlands and locally down far southwest wales, the midlands and locally do england. far southwest wales, the midlands and locally do england. far through st of england. as we go through monday towards the southeast, a brighter a few brighter picture with a few showers brighter with showers and brighter with showers and brighter with showers towards north showers towards the far north too. again, fairly warm in too. but again, fairly warm in the sunshine towards the southeast . southeast. >> well, well , come back to the >> well, well, come back to the camilla tominey show live from manchester and i'm here with michael gove levelling up secretary and the mp for surrey heath as build lovely to see you mr gove. thank you coming on mr gove. thank you for coming on the pleasure. the show this morning. pleasure. camilla. intrigued the show this morning. pleasure. camilla. when intrigued the show this morning. pleasure. camilla. when i intrigued the show this morning. pleasure. camilla. when i announced that because when i announced that you were coming on this show , i you were coming on this show, i obviously said you were coming on patel others , and i on priti patel and others, and i received a memo from two different people describing you received a memo from two difarent people describing you received a memo from two difa net people describing you received a memo from two difa net zer0)le describing you received a memo from two difa net zero architect. ling you received a memo from two difa net zero architect. so you as a net zero architect. so there's a bit of scurrilous behaviour on, maybe by behaviour going on, maybe by some in the more climate sceptic wing of the party, pointing out the fact that you're the one that's pushed for all of these net measures, you're the net zero measures, you're the one wanted the petrol one who wanted the petrol and diesel you're one diesel car ban. you're the one that cosied up greta thunberg that cosied up to greta thunberg and goes on. yes. and

and the list goes on. yes. and you've had to climb down on this climate stuff. i think david cameron once famously called it the green crap. i mean, how are you feeling about this? because the green crap. i mean, how are you feelpush bout this? because the green crap. i mean, how are you feelpush this this? because the green crap. i mean, how are you feelpush this agenda, cause the green crap. i mean, how are you feelpush this agenda, butie you did push this agenda, but have you now realised that it's just politically expedient? have you now realised that it's jusino, politically expedient? have you now realised that it's jusino, i)olitically expedient? have you now realised that it's jusino, i i'mically expedient? have you now realised that it's jusino, i i'm passionateiient? have you now realised that it's jusino, i i'm passionate about >> no, i i'm passionate about the environment and when i was environment secretary, we did a lot . but in environment secretary, we did a lot. but in order to environment secretary, we did a lot . but in order to ensure that lot. but in order to ensure that as we left the european union , as we left the european union, we took advantage of the new freedoms that we had actually to be a greener country. the ban on new petrol and diesel cars that we brought in at that time was for 2040. yes, it's now 20, 35, so it's more ambitious. for 2040. yes, it's now 20, 35, so it's more ambitious . yes. so it's more ambitious. yes. than when i was doing 20, 30. >> it was you did say quite recently. no, there's absolutely no way we're back on that timeline. >> well , i certainly timeline. >> well, i certainly think that it was right to move from 2040 to 2035 and to show a greater degree of ambition. but as the prime minister has pointed out, we're we're world leading in our moves towards net zero in our decarbonisation and of course,

the environment is about much more than dealing with climate change. so that is the single biggest threat to our environment and the prime minister, i think, is right to say, look, we're going meet say, look, we're going to meet those but do not those targets, but we do not want so at a time want to do so at a time when people are feeling pinch, people are feeling the pinch, which actually hit them which will actually hit them hard the pocket when we don't hard in the pocket when we don't need to. >> on reflection , was it because >> on reflection, was it because at end the day , it's at the end of the day, it's not very tory voters , very popular with tory voters, as we've seen this opinion poll, which interesting which i think is interesting in the now only the observer, you're now only ten after this ten points behind after this climate climbdown. so were you a little bit out of sync with tory voters, do you think? and rishi sunak caught up? >> no, i think you're >> no, i think that the you're absolutely right taking absolutely right that taking a long term view and at the same time also making sure that we don't hit hard working people is the right thing to do. but overall , that band, 2030 was overall, that band, 2030 was immovable and it's been moved. yeah. >> but overall and sunak talks about keir starmer are being flip flop ish. >> well, we can get on to keir starmer in a second, but. but the is that if you're

the thing is that if you're travelling in a direction and the, the direction that we're travelling is greater environmental protection in net zero, you can zero, then sometimes you can accelerate and sometimes you can decelerate, but you're still travelling in same direction. >> now talking speed >> now we're talking about speed . yes. . let's talk about hs2. yes. whether it's speed or capacity still debate this whole still open to debate this whole prevarication over the manchester leg, you are the levelling up secretary. if you don't do this manchester leg, you're not levelling up. i mean, bofis you're not levelling up. i mean, boris johnson , your former boris johnson, your former colleague, has said that rishi is his to think of is out of his mind to think of scrapping of this rail scrapping this part of this rail project that, let's face has project that, let's face it, has somewhat crept out of control from a budget perspective. we've got this ludicrous situation where it's not coming to london. so it's probably going so it's probably actually going to to go to to take more time to go to old oak common get on it, to go oak common to get on it, to go to birmingham, maybe not go to birmingham, to maybe not go to birmingham, to maybe not go to manchester. and then what's happened to northern powerhouse rail? levelling happened to northern powerhouse railnorth levelling happened to northern powerhouse railnorth at levelling happened to northern powerhouse railnorth at all. .evelling the north at all. >> well , the first thing is work >> well, the first thing is work is going on hs2 as is still going on on hs2 even as we speak . the second is we speak. the second thing is i can't and you wouldn't expect me to speculate on. >> you reckon, though? >> do you reckon, though? i mean, so close to the

mean, you're so close to the action, you must. no, action, you must. no, no, no, no. >> the most important >> i think the most important thing make that thing is to make sure that we get for from every get value for money from every pound spend transport pound that we spend on transport and make and critically, we need to make sure as well as linking sure that as well as linking north and south, we also link east and west . and we also need east and west. and we also need to make sure that's point. to make sure that's the point. links cities like links within cities like manchester are spent as well . manchester are spent as well. >> manchester and leeds >> what manchester and leeds still don't have that rail link. you know, you can't easily get across the pennines in 2023. if you in the north, you'd be you were in the north, you'd be angry. you'd be saying no . this angry. you'd be saying no. this government too london government is far too london centric . it isn't. all roads centric. it isn't. all roads lead it should be lead to london. it should be a road from sheffield to road leads from sheffield to leeds to manchester to newcastle i >>i >> i agree that we've been to london centric in the past and that's have a term that's why we have a long term plan up. so with plan for levelling up. so with lots different. so you think lots of different. so you think that go to manchester that hs2 should go to manchester then? well, i think levelling up involves doing many things. involves doing many more things. give position that. give us your position on that. >> should to manchester? >> should it go to manchester? >> should it go to manchester? >> think we to make >> well, i think we need to make sure we're absolute sure that we're getting absolute value money. sure that we're getting absolute val|come money. sure that we're getting absolute val|come moryou able to >> come on. you must be able to have opinion on whether have an opinion on whether it should manchester not. should go to manchester or not. >> the most >> i absolutely think the most

important is making sure important thing is making sure that level up, we take that when we level up, we take into account all of the things that we need to do. so we've shifted funding, that we need to do. so we've shif should funding, that we need to do. so we've shif should go funding, that we need to do. so we've shifshould go to funding, that we need to do. so we've shif should go to manchester but should it go to manchester research and development funding? we're to funding? well we're going to have funding? well we're going to havshould it not? >> should it not? >> should it not? >> will it should it have to look every conceivable pound look at every conceivable pound that we spend on transport in order to make sure that we get value for money? >> not an answer to the question whether you it should whether you think it should go to right. so to manchester. all right. so your answer to that question, let's answer let's try and get an answer to another question. the tax burden. i burden. yes. scheduled to be, i think, highest in think, 37.7, the highest in peace you know this you've peace time. you know this you've got caucus of your own party got a caucus of your own party on fight got a caucus of your own party on right saying we will not on the right saying we will not support tax rises. support any more tax rises. truss priti patel, who's coming on later, what do you think of these colleagues? they've also been apparently exchanging whatsapp not those whatsapp messages, not those specific we've seen whatsapp messages, not those specifwhatsapps we've seen whatsapp messages, not those specifwhatsapps talking'e seen whatsapp messages, not those specifwhatsapps talking about| some whatsapps talking about rishi having the charisma rishi sunak having the charisma of door. what's going on here? of a door. what's going on here? are you behind this caucus saying that taxes should come down or do you think they're being scurrilous ? being scurrilous? >> well, no. i think every conservative wants to bring

taxes down and to reduce the tax burden. but but the thing we must do first is to bring inflation under control. the biggest tax cut that we can give to the country is bringing inflation down. but naturally , inflation down. but naturally, whenever conservatives can, we always want to cut taxes . and always want to cut taxes. and the colleagues who are making that argument aren't are, to my mind , simply making the argument mind, simply making the argument that all of us in government believe in as well. >> so should he. should the chancellor cut taxes come the autumn statement ? autumn statement? >> well, as to which taxes when it's the chancellor, you quite rightly point out , who will rightly point out, who will decide. and i believe that it is only after we deal with inflation effectively that we can then cross that threshold and we do want to reduce taxes . and we do want to reduce taxes. but i can't anticipate at where we will be on that journey at this stage and on the inflation point, there's been some suggestions by caroline wheeler on the sunday times that jeremy hunt has been sort of overheard

speaking about the idea of having an election once inflation is below 3. >> so if it happens in the spring, it happens in the spring, it happens in the spring, if it happens in the autumn, then. have autumn, it happens then. have you heard anything about when there election ? i there might be an election? i know next year, but which know it's next year, but which of two seasons? know it's next year, but which of i two seasons? know it's next year, but which of i certainlyeasons? know it's next year, but which of i certainly don'ts? know it's next year, but which of i certainly don't know. >> i certainly don't know. >> i certainly don't know. >> all right. fair enough . also, >> all right. fair enough. also, let's talk about you and talking about boris in your sun on sunday interview, because i was intrigued by this. yes. said intrigued by this. yes. you said you patched things up you sort of patched things up and you had a and deep and and you had a long and deep and meaningful conversation and i just if you could just wondered if you could enlighten what enlighten us at all as to what was , what you think of was discussed, what you think of bofis was discussed, what you think of boris johnson's future in this party. that he's party. is it a shame that he's not at conference making his unique contribution? not at conference making his uni well, )ntribution? not at conference making his uni well, you'retion? not at conference making his uni well, you're absolutely >> well, you're absolutely right. the sun on sunday have a brilliant interview pages 14 and 15 today. yes, i've read it. kate ferguson, i would recommend more people read it. as for boris, look , i enjoyed working boris, look, i enjoyed working for boris. we all know that bofisis for boris. we all know that boris is a politician with massive gifts. but also you

know, he made some mistakes and we all know what happened as a result of that . i had the result of that. i had the opportunity to talk to him at a social event a wee while ago. but in fairness to boris , he's but in fairness to boris, he's now a private citizen. so it's a private conversation. >> did you ever apologise for the ship knifing of 2016 the leader ship knifing of 2016 to him? >> i think a long time ago, yes. >> i think a long time ago, yes. >> do you regret that now? >> do you regret that now? >> i, i think that there have been so many turbulent toing and froing that it's probably best for historians to judge what was right and what was wrong rather than me. >> how do we think historians are going to judge suella braverman are going to judge suella bravern agree with her? do you agree with her? thoughtful. well i mean, i look at britain. i think that it's a very multicultural country and it's been hugely successful as that. so do you disagree with suella then? >> no, because i think she was making a very specific point, which for us to continue which is that for us to continue to be a successful multi—ethnic , country, do , multiracial country, we do need to make sure that we have a core of values everyone who core of values that everyone who lives here accepts and coheres

around the rule of law, democracy , tolerance for democracy, tolerance for minorities and so on. and we have been successful. if you look at the cabinet, if you look at the parliament, if you look at the parliament, if you look at the parliament, if you look at the leadership that we have in the media, in the private sector, in so many other areas, britain , i think is probably one britain, i think is probably one of the most successful multi—ethnic, multiracial democracies in the world. but you only maintain that success if people have common evidence that your policy on migration and your policy on integration is okay. >> so how has it failed then? and she actually guilty of and is she actually guilty of dog whistle politics? there's some who's talking about this point people point she's made about people claiming persecution because of their homosexuality . and their homosexuality. and actually it's a tiny actually it's only a tiny proportion migrants, yet proportion of migrants, yet she's thing . so she's made that a big thing. so is a dog whistle ? is she blowing a dog whistle? >> no, don't think so at all. is she blowing a dog whistle? >think don't think so at all. is she blowing a dog whistle? >think suella: think so at all. is she blowing a dog whistle? >think suella was1k so at all. is she blowing a dog whistle? >think suella was making all. i think suella was making a number thoughtful points. number of thoughtful points. one of we obviously of them was that we obviously need to provide people with the reassurance that we're dealing with in order with illegal migration in order to happy situation to maintain the happy situation that in the uk where that we have in the uk where we're of the countries, we're one of the countries, the

electorate doesn't have that insurance. we'll come back insurance. well, we'll come back to . we are one of the to that. we are one of the countries in europe, if not, i think the best when it comes to showing warmth and a welcoming attitude towards people coming here legally who are genuinely fleeing persecution . but it's fleeing persecution. but it's also the case that the number of people who are coming here illegally, particularly on small boats, has diminished. there is more robert more to do. but suella robert jenrick and the team are working very hard on that. >> i notice as well from your interview talked a little interview you talked a little bit crime, that bit about knife crime, that tragic elian him bit about knife crime, that tragic killed elian him bit about knife crime, that tragic killed inzlian him bit about knife crime, that tragic killed in croydon him being killed in croydon last week, just horrific . week, which was just horrific. and bit about and you talked a bit about lockdown and whether were lockdown and whether you were asking yourselves questions about should have about whether we should have locked is that locked down schools. is that something now because locked down schools. is that somwereg now because locked down schools. is that somwere locked now because locked down schools. is that somwere locked down? jw because locked down schools. is that somwere locked down? hawk:ause locked down schools. is that somwere locked down? hawk you) you were locked down? hawk you were pushing things be were pushing for things to be locked down too much? >> well, i think we now have an opportunity to reflect on the whole. oh, sorry. that's my phone. oh, who it? no. phone. oh, who is it? no. >> should you answer it? >> should you answer it? >> no , no, not on this. >> no, no, not on this. >> no, no, not on this. >> is it rishi sunak? >> is it rishi sunak? >> not on this occasion. no. no. the have an opportunity the we now have an opportunity to on that. do think

to reflect on that. i do think it absolutely necessary we it was absolutely necessary we to in order to prevent to lock down in order to prevent the of the virus. but the spread of the virus. but i also think that we look back also think that we can look back and learn lessons for the future. think area future. and i think the area that was most painful and difficult locking down. so that was most painful and dif'yout locking down. so that was most painful and dif'you regret.ocking down. so that was most painful and dif'you regret being| down. so that was most painful and dif'you regret being so )wn. so that was most painful and dif'you regret being so hawkish? do you regret being so hawkish? no okay. no no. okay. >> one more question, if i may. it might sound little it might sound a little self—indulgent, was self—indulgent, but i was intrigued hear intrigued this week to hear from your nokes , your colleague, caroline nokes, calling this channel to be calling for this channel to be closed down. you're appearing on this channel this morning, and we're you. we're delighted to see you. secretary , do you think secretary of state, do you think that gb news should closed down? >> of course not. we shouldn't be business saying be in the business of saying closed down free speech. news closed down free speech. gb news is a valuable addition to what i think some people have called the broadcasting ecology. people should more choice. there should have more choice. there should have more choice. there should more voices. yes, should be more voices. yes, there will be people on gb news who will say things that are offensive. there have been people bbc who've said people on the bbc who've said things that are offensive and indeed on things that are offensive and indee channels on things that are offensive and indee channels as on things that are offensive and indee channels as well. on things that are offensive and indee channels as well. nyou other channels as well. so you know, the thing is channels

welcome back to the camilla tominey show live from the conservative party conference in manchester. we've got lots more to come on the show. we might be at the tory conference, but in just a minute i'll be speaking to stephen timms to the labour mp stephen timms and around for my and stick around for my interview with the former home secretary, patel. be secretary, priti patel. i'll be back jiffy . just after 10

a.m. >> i'm ray addison in the newsroom. the prime minister will work to convince voters and the party faithful that he's ready to make tough decisions for the country. as the conservative party conference gets undennay , protesters have gets undennay, protesters have made it clear that they want their voice heard during the four day event, which starts today. as questions continue over the future of the hs2 rail project and levelling up in the north, rishi sunak is announcing a £1 billion fund to help regenerate high streets across the uk . 55 towns will be given the uk. 55 towns will be given £20 million to help improve their communities over the course of the decade and well. meanwhile, former prime minister liz truss will urge the government to cut corporation tax during her speech at the conference she will say conservatives must position themselves as the party of big business again, scrapping a planned increase in corporation tax from 19 to 25% was included

in her mini—budget during her brief tenure in downing street. she's one of more than 30 tory mps who've promised not to support the chancellor's autumn statement if it contains tax rises . a key part of the windsor rises. a key part of the windsor framework has been implemented today with the start of a new system for moving goods from great britain to northern ireland. a new trusted trader scheme is now in effect with a system of green and red lanes at ports . our northern ireland ports. our northern ireland reporter dougie beattie explains. as the protocol grace penods explains. as the protocol grace periods end , the framework periods end, the framework document comes into place. >> although we must say this is a phased approach , this today a phased approach, this today really affects the retailers, the large supermarkets that have had problems with their supply chains. the issues using groupings may still fierce problems and that will really hit smaller retailers as. but the real battle lines here will be drawn in january and right through to october next year,

when customs not only look at goods travelling from gb into northern ireland, but also from goods leaving ireland to go back in to the uk . in to the uk. >> dougie beattie they're ofgems energy price cap has now fallen across england wales and scotland in place for the next three months. it's expected to reduce the average bill from just over £2,070 to just over 1090. there's still more than 50% higher than pre—crisis levels. the government is yet to announce any financial support for struggling households . some for struggling households. some single use plastic items are now banned. in england. businesses can no longer sell products like plastic cutlery, plates and polystyrene cups, and they face fines if they do. local authorities will be able to carry out inspections to make sure the rules are being followed as part of efforts to reduce the amount of non—recyclable material . this is

non—recyclable material. this is gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now let's get back to . camilla well , play gb news now let's get back to . camilla well, come back to to. camilla well, come back to the camilla tominey show live from the conservative party conference in manchester. >> in just a moment. i'm going to be speaking to labour mp stephen timms. i'm also going to be joined by former home secretary priti patel, and we're going of going to take the temperature of the party with a special the tory party with a special people's panel of tory members and top political journalist ben riley—smith about and top political journalist ben rilelastnith about and top political journalist ben rilelastnityears about and top political journalist ben rilelastnityears of about and top political journalist ben rilelastnityears of tory about and top political journalist ben rilelastnityears of tory rulet and top political journalist ben rilelastnityears of tory rule . the last 13 years of tory rule. but before all that, stephen timms , labour mp for east ham timms, labour mp for east ham and chair of the work and pensions committee, joins pensions select committee, joins me thank you very me now. stephen, thank you very much some time with much for sharing some time with me sunday morning. now me on this sunday morning. now i appreciate the labour party appreciate it's the labour party conference next in conference next week in liverpool. are with the liverpool. we are with the tories we speak. stephen, tories as we speak. stephen, let's talk the let's just talk about the private schools policy, which is one of the kind of nailed on

policies that were actually sure that keir starmer does want to introduce prime introduce if he becomes prime minister year. now introduce if he becomes prime minister year . now there's minister next year. now there's been a bit of flip flop been a bit of a flip flop on this you initially said this policy. you initially said you wanted to strip private schools of their charitable status vat status as well as charging vat on fees. you've taken on school fees. you've taken away part of that. you're saying you don't mind the schools being charitable , you want charitable, but you still want to put vat on? is this policy just completely confused? what's going on or another going on or is it another example of sir keir starmer being capped flop ? being capped in flip flop? >> i don't think it is. i mean, the crucial thing is that the tax changes and the question of why these tax breaks are appropriate for private schools, i can't think of any justification for them other than that it's the way it's always been done . i think the always been done. i think the party's right to say that that private schools should pay vat along with everybody else because that will generate some much needed funds to improve state schools, which and, you know, in the end is in

everybody's interest, including the interests of people who send their children to private schools, for state schools to be doing good job. but doing a really good job. but it's not in the interests of people who send their children to schools have 20% to private schools to have 20% added bills . added to their bills. >> keir starmer has said, oh, well, it's hopefully the schools won't charges on. but won't pass these charges on. but if you listen to any of the independent schools bodies, they're saying that parents will be droves. that be leaving in their droves. that will push an estimated will then push an estimated 40,000 private school pupils into the state system . how will into the state system. how will labour be able to cope with those children? how quickly will they be able to build the classrooms needed to accommodate them? >> well, the institute for fiscal studies looked at this and said they don't think there will big move from will be a big move away from private schools. >> but i come back to the key question why should private schools these tax breaks? schools have these tax breaks? what is the justification for them other than that's how it's always been done? these absolute right to take a fresh look at this and accept that private

education should be taxed in the same way as other services. we have to pay vat on everything else. why not on school fees? >> and what about the other criticism that actually it will make the private school system even more elitist? because your likes of your eton's and your winchester's, they'll be able to afford the fee hike. the parents, they're these schools have got great reserves , massive have got great reserves, massive endowments, lots of investments . but most independent schools are of 400 pupils or less . are of 400 pupils or less. they're service by parents of children who are just about managing to afford the fees. these are the very kids . one these are the very kids. one imagines that labour are behind in terms of social mobility . in terms of social mobility. they're the ones who are going to be forced out of the private sector into the state sector as well. >> private schools are ovennhelmingly used by better off families for obvious reasons and i think it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to pay the ordinary taxes for that service that we all pay for

every other service . so i don't every other service. so i don't think there's any justification that private school parents already pay tax, don't they? >> education. >> education. >> but mr tim's private school parents, they pay tax. they pay tax , but they don't use the tax, but they don't use the schools. so in a way, you could argue that the government owes them a rebate . them a rebate. >> but why should education, private education even benefit from a tax break that doesn't apply to anything else ? apply to anything else? >> okay, fair point. fair point. let's move on to ulez , if we let's move on to ulez, if we can, because obviously i'm noting your constituency being east ham. what do the good people of east ham make of ulez and is this a disastrous policy from who of from the mayor of london who of course, for your side? labour course, is for your side? labour sadiq khan well, sadiq khan is doing a great job and i really welcome the improvements in air quality that my constituents in east ham have benefited from, benefited from the ulez came in here several years ago. >> there was one constituent who

came to see me who was worried about it, but, you know, it went in really with very little comment and it's definitely contributed to a much appreciated improvement in local air quality. and of course, there's more that needs to be done, but it's a big step in the right direction. >> there has been some criticism of sadiq khan in the week for taking his eye off the ball when it comes to knife crime in the capital. you'll be familiar with the tragic death of elianne andam on wednesday in croydon. has he been focusing too much on some of these green policies and not enough on trying to rid the capital of lethal blades? >> well, the what happened in croydon was absolutely terrible and there's been far too much of this over a period, including some tragic deaths in my own borough in in newham . borough in in newham. >> i think what we need here is a really good cross—government

strategy , focusing on tackling strategy, focusing on tackling this massive problem. we just haven't had that. yes, the mayor is playing his part. the met police in my area is working. really really hard, but they don't seem to have the backing of the government. that's the change that i think is needed here. >> i'm going to ask you this as well, mr timms, because our viewers and listeners may not remember, but you were yourself stabbed by a constituent. there's been some talk in the news week about the ease news this week about the ease with which particularly young people obtain knives online, people can obtain knives online, that they can go and buy. very sharp knives, zombie knives and other knives on amazon . do you other knives on amazon. do you think there should be an age limit on the purchase of knives? do we need to bring in more regulations to stop the sales of knives people ? knives to young people? >> yes, we do. specifically onune >> yes, we do. specifically online sales because of course, they are not caught by the bans which apply to shops in the uk. i campaigned on this in 2018. i was promised that these changes

would be in the online safety bill and they are in the online safety bill the online safety bill is still not yet in effect , but i'm hoping when it does come into effect, we will finally have much better protections against online sales of these appalling weapons , of these appalling weapons, which to many people are still getting hold of at the moment . getting hold of at the moment. >> and mr timms , obviously it is >> and mr timms, obviously it is your conference next week in liverpool. we understand that. keir starmer is struggling a little bit with his speech . what little bit with his speech. what would you like to hear from the labour leader next week in liverpool ? liverpool? >> well, starmer has done >> well, keir starmer has done a superb job in positioning the labour party as a credible alternative government. i was campaigning in glasgow rutherglen in the by—election this week and met people there switching both from the conservative party and the snp to labour . it's done. he's done to labour. it's done. he's done a fantastic job. he's set out the five missions which he wants to be the hallmarks of his government and i'm no doubt that

next week we are going to start to hear some more of the details and i think that will be an important step fonnard. but the mission is the kind of ten year missions he set out, i think are absolutely right. yes >> although the poll gap between labour and the conservatives has narrowed , according to opinion narrowed, according to opinion in observer today, you're in the observer today, you're only ten points ahead and you had been so it's not all had been 25. so it's not all going right for keir starmer, is it? >> well , i don't it? >> well, i don't think anyone expected us to be 25 points ahead by the time of the general election . election. >> i'd happily settle for ten myself if , you know, it's myself if, you know, it's a remarkable turnaround for the labour party since keir became leader at and i think his speech next week will be a very important opportunity to spell out further to people how labour will change britain as the chief executive of iceland said when he resigned from the conservative party yesterday, nothing seems to be better today than it was when the conservatives came to power 13 years ago. it's desperate time

for a change. >> stephen timms, thank you very much indeed forjoining this much indeed for joining this morning. lovely to speak to you . but it is interesting that polling and it is interesting, this idea that perhaps there isn't fervour behind keir isn't this fervour behind keir starmer be prime minister as starmer to be prime minister as there tony blair. but there was with tony blair. but we'll until next week when we'll wait until next week when we'll wait until next week when we be liverpool with we will be in liverpool with this discuss labour this show to discuss labour matters. go matters. but for now don't go anywhere because in a minute i'm going quizzing the former going to be quizzing the former home secretary and tory big beasts , dame priti on beasts, dame priti patel, on everything from migrant action to cuts . all to whether we need tax cuts. all that more with me after the that and more with me after the weather. hello there and greg dewhurst. >> and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. we do have rain in the forecast over the coming days, but there'll be some bright spells at times too, and generally on and temperatures generally on the particularly and temperatures generally on the towards articularly and temperatures generally on the towards next|larly and temperatures generally on the towards next weekend . we head towards next weekend. low pressure generally dominating the pressure pattern over the next few days , bringing over the next few days, bringing spells of rain, but eventually high pressure should start to move the middle the move in by the middle of the week. afternoon, we do have week. this afternoon, we do have bnght week. this afternoon, we do have bright spells across northern

ireland, scotland with a few scattered here, some scattered showers here, some thicker towards parts of thicker rain towards parts of shetland. this cloud, as well, stretching from southwest england midlands england into wales, the midlands parts of east anglia will give some spells of rain at times brighter southeast . and brighter to the southeast. and here temperatures lifting to around celsius elsewhere. around 2324 celsius elsewhere. generally the high teens to low 20s . so on the warm side for the 20s. so on the warm side for the time of year, frontal time of year, this frontal system tries to move a little further south and eastwards as we through this evening we go through this evening into the early clear spells the early hours, clear spells generally elsewhere still a scattering of showers across northern ireland and particularly scotland. particularly northwest scotland. some the heavy side. some of these on the heavy side. the picking up here, too. the winds picking up here, too. and for most temperatures are largely staying in double figures. night across figures. and a warm night across the where it will be the far south where it will be quite a cloudy start to monday morning. some outbreaks of light rain and drizzle. and then through this frontal through the day, this frontal system a little system starts to push a little further again and further north again and reactivate. so we'll see spells of england and of rain across england and wales. be some brighter wales. there'll be some brighter interludes at times too. some of that be heavy, that rain could be heavy, perhaps later on in perhaps thundery later on in the day and temperatures getting

into 20s . joined by dame into the low 20s. joined by dame priti patel , former home priti patel, former home secretary and mp for witham . secretary and mp for witham. >> nice to see you. good morning. newly named. i saw you at windsor castle. was it princess anne? it was. it must have been lovely. >> it was just incredible. l really humbling. >> you were wearing bright pink. >> you were wearing bright pink. >> lovely. you >> yes. and lovely. and you know, was with lot of people know, i was with a lot of people that have given a huge amount to the we public service the country. we public service frontline individuals. so it's incredibly humbling . incredibly humbling. >> congratulations. thank >> well, congratulations. thank you. straight you. let's get straight into conference because i am conference matters because i am intrigued. there's a little bit of making on. of mischief making going on. i think, among some tories. can we include you in that simply because you've signed this letter along with liz truss and duncan smith and others about tax and you're saying to the chancellor, you put up chancellor, if you put taxes up again, we will not support you. and you add up all the and if you add up all the numbers, you know, you could actually the actually challenge the government be actually challenge the gt pretty|ent be actually challenge the gnpretty effective be actually challenge the gnpretty effective rebellion. be a pretty effective rebellion. meanwhile we hear members of the

conservative democratic organisation, no names are being named, but they're quoted in the papers having written on papers as having written on whatsapp groups, things like the pm's got the charisma of a door what's going on here? pretty. i mean , you're meant to be a nest mean, you're meant to be a nest of singing birds ahead of conference, of singing birds ahead of conwell,:e, of singing birds ahead of conwell, look , camilla, i think >> well, look, camilla, i think you've been to you've been you've been to conferences many, many times and you know me well enough in terms of my instincts and i'm a grass roots activist first and foremost. i actually think party conference should our conference should be about our members . so first all, you've members. so first of all, you've asked , are we making mischief? asked, are we making mischief? the answer is no. to the point about tax pledge is that about the tax pledge is that this is now our last conference before a general election . i before a general election. i think and i think think it's right. and i think the actually the other thing is actually there's more unity amongst conservative mps that conservative backbench mps that we must have a conservative vision on and an ambitious programme and platform to go into the next general election that importantly differentiate us from labour. >> well, we are gove is suggesting that there should be tax cuts, but i suppose the economists will asking economists will be asking where does come from? the

does the money come from? the government boris johnson government under boris johnson and under rishi with and now under rishi sunak with furlough and all the rest of it has spent too much money. >> size of the state >> we know the size of the state has grown far too much, but i also think we have to look at quite a few things actually. one is overall of taxation is the overall rate of taxation and there was the ifs report that published on friday and that was published on friday and actually it was a very good report. it was detailed report report. it was a detailed report that showed the share of public spending. grown spending. the state has grown more than the tax receipts that are into government. are coming into government. >> so what do we cut? which departments we do? departments do we do? >> well, every >> we cut? well, every department can cut the department can take a cut the home department can take a cut the horso last i'll give you >> so last year i'll give you the one example. >> last year before i left the home office, i gave the police a pay home office, i gave the police a pay and was part pay increase and that was part funded back room from funded from back room from the actual office budget . and i actual home office budget. and i think that to come think more of that needs to come home. we also need to there's a lot of work we need to do in government, though. camilla as well. you about well. when you think about the way we've got way society is going, we've got a people that are not in a lot of people that are not in work, that are not actually being supported to get into work. a former employment

work. i'm a former employment minister part the minister and i was part of the team brought in universal team that brought in universal credit. brought big credit. we brought in big changes to the welfare. do we need do more with universal need to do more with universal credit? we must give people more support. we've got to make people we've to people productive. we've got to help get back. help people get back. >> you think it's a post—covid thing people are not thing that people are just not willing into the willing to go back into the workforce? are you saying people are saying? are lazy? what are you saying? >> saying but again, if >> saying that? but again, if you at the ifs report, you look at the ifs report, there are some shocking projections even by projections in there, even by the around the number of the obr around the number of people by 2028 and people going fonnard by 2028 and in working age will in future years working age will end claiming benefits . yeah, end up claiming benefits. yeah, we find which we we need to find ways in which we can them because we can support them because we can't always say it's the can't always say it's fine, the state is going to step in, the state is going to step in, the state step absolutely state should step in. absolutely for that help for people that need that help and net, which is and that safety net, which is what universal credit has. >> do you think the state is stepping too so i do. stepping in too much? so i do. >> absolutely that's >> i absolutely do. and that's that's us in government. that's down to us in government. but also it's up to us as conservatives in government to put fonnard alternate lviv, put fonnard the alternate lviv, the alternative that gives hope, opportunity aspiration back opportunity and aspiration back to the british public so that

they know they've got economic security about as well, hope and aspiration. >> do you think that your predecessor, suella braverman , predecessor, suella braverman, is and aspiration is spreading hope and aspiration by multiculturalism is spreading hope and aspiration by failed multiculturalism is spreading hope and aspiration by failed ? multiculturalism has failed? >> so look, i think, first of all, i'm going to just say that, you know, the job of home secretary is a very difficult job. >> do you think she's doing a good job? well she she's spoken she's given a speech this week. >> and, you know, she's she's right to speak about a range of issues. >> but do you agree on that multiculturalism aspect? because people will say you've got a lot in both you. you're in common, both of you. you're both children of immigrant parents. >> we're not on our own. >> we're not on our own. >> no, indeed. you both home secretary mums, look. >> no, no, look, look at the diaspora communities that we have our country. it's not have in our country. it's not about suella braverman and it's not me . no, about suella braverman and it's not me. no, this about not about me. no, this is about our country. you know, i'm the first our country up. first to talk our country up. i'm the first to talk success up in our country. we are an amazing and we're amazing country and we're an amazing country and we're an amazing home people, quite amazing home to people, quite frankly, that have chosen to make lives the united make their lives in the united kingdom. here in kingdom. we're here in manchester, which is home to many people from black

many people from the black community who left hong kong in recent years . they're recent years. they're integrated. are loads integrated. there are loads of people, millions of people contributing to our country suella being too negative. >> mean, been >> then. i mean, she's been accused of dogwhistle politics, politics. >> i think some context around some remarks. you know, some of her remarks. you know, it's . will give it's important. so i will give some context and examples. there are parts of the country we saw , we saw disruption, community tensions in leicester last year. yes you can't just say that's not because people have an integrated people there want jobs. they want hope. and desperation. they need desperation. they also need their local councils and local government to work well for them. labour mayor, quite frankly in leicester has not been working them, not been working well for them, not delivering people . these are delivering for people. these are the things we have the types of things that we have to and quite frankly, to address. and quite frankly, as conservatives in government, that's where be that's where we should be focusing on. i do think when focusing on. and i do think when you net contribution you look at the net contribution of our immigrant communities and diaspora the united kingdom , diaspora to the united kingdom, we'd be seeing the range of we'd not be seeing the range of foreign investment. look foreign direct investment. look at india and at countries like india and investors, for example, people from parts of the world,

from other parts of the world, asia the states come asia, the united states come into country , even africa. into our country, even africa. and what do you think the home secretary was doing? >> was it a tilt at leadership? >> was it a tilt at leadership? >> i mean, look, should >> i mean, look, you should ask her, you should. her, camilla. you really should. >> have her >> we're delighted to have her on. want to come on. on. if you want to come on. i speak to you next week. i think actually, let's let's just again, know, just look at context. >> we're less than a year away from a general election. giving speeches none of speeches is fine, but none of thatis speeches is fine, but none of that is a substitute for action and delivery. and if you look around the hall, and delivery. and if you look around the hall , this area today around the hall, this area today , the pledges are there . you , the pledges are there. you know, the government. >> are you frustrated that you think it's too many words are not enough action from this government? it's delivery. there'll election next yean yeah the british people judge >> the british people will judge this government on delivery. the five pledges, for example , is five pledges, for example, is one of them. let's have less talk and focus on actually stopping the boats. i mean, 24,000 have come over stopping the boats. i mean, 24,cyear. have come over stopping the boats. i mean, 24,cyear. it's have come over stopping the boats. i mean, 24,cyear. it's a have come over stopping the boats. i mean, 24,cyear. it's a difficultne over this year. it's a difficult issue. i know been there. issue. i know i've been there. yes. always said there's no yes. i've always said there's no one single solution but be pragmatic, find pragmatic, be practical, find solutions , ones. we the solutions, ones. we have the supreme court hearing coming up

for rwanda judgement. what for the rwanda judgement. what do you think on that? because there's about the echr there's been talk about the echr today. >> i think all of the cabinet have been given a from have been given a line from number say, you know, number 10 to say, you know, everything's on table. everything's on the table. >> i gather. >> yes, i gather. >> yes, i gather. >> yeah. what what you think >> yeah. what what do you think should taken should be on the table and taken off? i'll give you my view. >> i can't speak for anyone in government. i'm not in government. i'm not in government. number one. i support reform. i support reform. comes echr, reform. when it comes to echr, i support reform of the un 51 convention, went to the convention, i went to see the head of the unhcr last year with the foreign foreign secretary from rwanda. when we announced our rwanda plan . but coming but our rwanda plan. but coming but let's be quite clear about this, right? so echr it's not about the rights and the principles . the rights and the principles. this is about the interpretation by the court in strasbourg of judgements that go against our own laws, our own sovereign laws. and camilla, we've been here before. do you remember prisoner rights? yes. so you know, give him prisoners the right to vote. when you think about how that court intervened to foreign national to stop foreign national offenders being removed

offenders from being removed from country, that is not from our country, that is not right. laws are crystal right. our laws are crystal clear about the removal and the deportation of fmo's. so are you pro full withdrawal from it? so i we have to reform. you i think we have to reform. you can withdraw, but at the same time, is it about the rights or the principles or the interpretation? i don't think it's right that the court in strasbourg is interfering in our domestic policies and in our laws, which is stopping actually a democratically elected government from implementing its own laws . and, you know, foreign own laws. and, you know, foreign national offenders is just one example. prisoner votes. david cameron was very clear about that at the time. yes. we have been here many times before on that. >> the office has decided >> the home office has decided when comes to housing people when it comes to housing people in hotels, that they must in in hotels, that they must be in a three hotel or above. do a three star hotel or above. do you with that policy ? you agree with that policy? >> don't agree with that >> i don't agree with that policy . so could be in one policy. so they could be in one star, i go further than star, but i go further than that. camilla and you've heard me say this before. everyone's heard me say this. we had a proposal the plan for to proposal in the new plan for to immigration build reception centres them greek

centres. i called them greek style reception because style reception centres because they had detention facilities . they had detention facilities. and that people and it's important that people that illegally are that come here illegally are detained . and yes, so they're in detained. and yes, so they're in a no hotels. i think first of all, because we have our laws, so our laws basically say you can't detain people unless you can't detain people unless you can remove people. but can actually remove people. but you in a reception you keep them in a reception centre, which the government could argue they've got with sites in wethersfield and braintree in my local area. but it's not the same it's not it's not the same because should be purpose because they should be purpose built where people can be tracked basically so that they can't abscond . yeah, the can't abscond. yeah, the government says people aren't absconding, they absconding, but they are leaving. need know what is leaving. we need to know what is happening people then happening with people and then you asylum you can process their asylum cases on site so individuals know what is happening. othennise it just becomes a complete. so it sounds like you think that the home office under suella being too suella braverman is being too soft migrants? well, soft on these migrants? well, i don't think don't don't think the i don't i actually think the actually don't think the approach right. and as i approach is right. and as i said, i've a migrant camp in said, i've got a migrant camp in wethersfield district in wethersfield in my district in braintree quite braintree district. and quite frankly , we are it's locally

frankly, we are it's locally local residents, our local councils are paying for this that it's been opaque. there's been no transparency on financial payments. so you know, politicians in government can make claims and statements saying asylum seekers are coming here and they're using our nhs. in wethersfield we have a private contractor, even though our own local residents have no access to the nhs and can't get gp appointments and things of that nature . so i think the that nature. so i think the government has to be transparent about what going it's not about what is going on. it's not being the being transparent. the department no , exactly i've department no, exactly what i've been this . i'm department no, exactly what i've been this. i'm in been saying about this. i'm in constant contact with them. i'm not getting straightfonnard answers, classic answers, but this is a classic case of people in government saying and doing saying one thing and doing something completely different. my view is, is that they should have had purpose built reception centres where basically i mean they couldn't build them that quickly, though, could they? >> saying they >> you're saying you said they could they could have. could have they could have. >> new plan >> when the new plan for immigration was government policy democratically policy under a democratically elected should elected government that should have and have come together. but you and i happened last year. i know what happened last year. they thrown the

they be thrown out with the bathwater . and other people come bathwater. and other people come in they can. in think that they can. >> you saying the baby is boris? >> actually, all our policies? yeah. the policies of the yeah. so the policies of the 2019 manifesto have been taken away. that was a new plan for immigration being one of them. where hear people in where do you hear people in government speaking up? where do you hear people in gonou nent speaking up? where do you hear people in gonou think speaking up? where do you hear people in gonou think thatipeaking up? where do you hear people in gonou think that the king up? where do you hear people in gonou think that the problem >> you think that the problem with the current with rishi and the current cabinet is that they've torn up the tory party manifesto. >> in with their the tory party manifesto. >> interpretation?i with their the tory party manifesto. >> interpretation? yeah,their the tory party manifesto. >> interpretation? yeah, we r own interpretation? yeah, we were elected in 2019 on the people's priorities with very, very objectives that very clear objectives and that is the manifesto. very clear objectives and that is the nmuststo. very clear objectives and that is the nmust like watering >> you must like the watering down zero stuff that down of the net zero stuff that was the manifesto and has now was in the manifesto and has now slightly been down. slightly been climbed down. >> you about that >> spoken to you about that previously. know, cannot previously. you know, we cannot just on just run headlong on particularly now inflation inflation was double digit. it's now come down thankfully but also the time when there's a cost of living crisis where people, you know, are really struggling cannot more struggling. you cannot put more taxes on them. camilla and this is a point net zero agenda was full of cost, greater financial burdens and more taxes on people. has to stop. you people. that has to stop. you know, as conservatives, we meant

to be on the side of hard working, hard pressed individuals, businesses and families. is families. and this is effectively where we need to come to being much more effectively where we need to come quiteto being much more effectively where we need to come quite wrongg much more effectively where we need to come quite wrong on nuch more effectively where we need to come quite wrong on a ch more effectively where we need to come quite wrong on a number going quite wrong on a number of different levels. would different levels. well, i would like to a much more bold, like to see a much more bold, ambitious conservative agenda based on conservative principles, which is letting people keep more of their hard, hard earned cash. i want to us be out there. party of law and order. i've always stood up for that, actually. >> well, let's speak about law and order, because i wrote a piece for the telegraph at the weekend that you retweeted, and it elianne murder it was about elianne and murder in croydon. and it really touched me. that girl. and i thought about their family and what be going through what they must be going through this and it was so this week. and it was so senseless and needless. yes, that girl with her whole life, like children are the same. like our children are the same. >> are no words for what >> there are no words for what has happened. >> had a whole life >> no, she had a whole life ahead of her. and i thought, what is this? what is this? we've got children carrying we've now got children carrying these blades. the proceedings are active on case. so are active on this case. so let's go into the details of let's not go into the details of that. but in general, how do we get these off the streets

get these blades off the streets and of teenagers hands? get these blades off the streets ancso of teenagers hands? get these blades off the streets ancso there'senagers hands? get these blades off the streets ancso there's so gers hands? get these blades off the streets ancso there's so much ands? get these blades off the streets ancso there's so much here. >> so there's so much here. there much and no . there is just so much and no. one, this is the straightfonnard way , way fonnard. i mean, first way, way fonnard. i mean, first of all, the loss of that poor girl to her family. yeah i mean, thatis girl to her family. yeah i mean, that is devastating , that is devastating, incomprehensible. and i've spent too much time myself. i've spent a lot of time with parents that have lost their children, aunts and uncles that lost their nieces and nephews. >> i mean, how many children my goodness. >> and it's dreadful. absolutely devastating. have to devastating. and we all have to think her poor mother and her think of her poor mother and her family right now. now, there are a of issues first a number of issues here. first of how is it these of all, how is it that these weapons being carried? weapons are being carried? people on stop and people know my views on stop and search. made it easier. i made search. i made it easier. i made it easier for police to conduct, stop and search. i think that absolutely has to happen. stop stop and search. i think that abs(search,1as to happen. stop stop and search. i think that abs(search, in to happen. stop stop and search. i think that abs(search, in myhappen. stop stop and search. i think that abs(search, in my view, n. stop stop and search. i think that abs(search, in my view, is stop and search, in my view, is a very, humane policy. it very, very humane policy. it helps save lives. yeah, it's helps to save lives. yeah, it's right that do more to right that we do more to absolutely weapons ban the absolutely get weapons ban the sale of these weapons to under eighteens. be eighteens. so there should be more that and there is all more on that and there is all credit to the government. there is work taking place on serious weapons weapons, a

weapons offensive weapons, a review of the offensive weapons act when i was home secretary we were moving into that area because we'd obviously done a lot with the police give them lot with the police to give them more and more resources. more powers and more resources. but the the day, it's but at the end of the day, it's this culture of gangs and it's this culture of gangs and it's this culture of gangs and it's this culture where basically young people feel that it's okay to carry weapons. there's to carry weapons. yeah, there's something . something else. >> and this just lack of >> and also this just lack of valuing lives. valuing of other people's lives. >> the point . and, you >> that's the point. and, you know, people thinking that know, young people thinking that they know, impose their they can, you know, impose their selves other people, selves on other people, disregarding or being disrespectful, not being caring or compassionate to others . or compassionate to others. >> is there a degree to which perhaps fatherlessness takes on a role here? breakdown of family and community, of course. >> of course. i also think the way and girls are treated way women and girls are treated . there's a lot . yeah, you know, there's a lot of that as well. disrespect to girls and women. i've seen some recent information on some data actually girlguiding where actually from girlguiding where young are really very, young girls are really very, very upset and fearful about their own safety , violence their own safety, violence against women and girls, a very big agenda. certainly when i was

in government, in fact, two years ago, it was at this conference. yes, i announced the review into sarah everard's appalling as you appalling murder as well, you know, greater action that know, and greater action that needed to follow then. and we had a big consultation lots had a big consultation and lots of yes i would of work took place. yes i would really implore government to keep on, you know, really pursuing that. >> think that the >> finally, do we think that the police just sort of police are not just sort of demoralised, but also so they've lost of their authority . lost some of their authority. >> the police have >> so the police have challenges. there's no doubt about that. but i've always believed absolutely believed we should absolutely resource and back the resource the police and back the police. have to have their police. we have to have their backs. we don't have the backs. if we don't have the backs. if we don't have the backs of cops, then quite backs of our cops, then quite frankly, easy frankly, it's too easy for everyone else in society , everyone else in society, whether it's the press and everyone else, just to run them down, around here. down, look at them around here. they individuals they are incredible individuals standing out in the looking after us and policing this, policing us all. >> thank you so much for your time morning. it's been time this morning. it's been lovely speaking to you at such an extended length well. an extended length as well. lovely you in manchester. lovely to see you in manchester. do anywhere in do not go anywhere because in just i'm going to be just a minute i'm going to be speaking to ben riley—smith, my

colleague the telegraph, colleague at the telegraph, who's brilliant

patrick christys on gb news. i'm gb news radio . gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. thank you for being with us this sunday morning live from the conservative party conference in manchester. now more michael portillo, my gb news colleague, is back in paddington. he's going from 11 am. going to be on air from 11 am. now, i'd love to hear from you in your capacity as a former defence secretary, as what you've of priti patel

you've made of what priti patel had michael because had to say. michael because she's what she's pretty critical of what the government's doing. >> i thought the most important thing said was that the thing that she said was that the government going to judged government is going to be judged on delivery and i'm that on delivery and i'm afraid that lots people in this country lots of people in this country think that nothing in this country works and government country works and the government isn't of anything, isn't in control of anything, not spending, the not hs2 spending, not the national service, not national health service, not immigration, not inflation, not the economy. and if this government is going to be judged on delivery, that is going to be pretty bad news, i think. and the problem that people like pretty have and the others who have signed this letter about taxation is they call attention to the government's impotence. i mean, is it really a good idea to start talking about taxation now? because i don't think the government is going to cut taxes between now and the election. is it a good idea to keep talking about immigration when the government cannot deliver? won't deliver on immigration? so these groups within the conservative party risk simply drawing attention to how poorly the

government is doing on the issues on which it's pledged to do better . do better. >> very good summary. michael, who have you got coming up on the show today? >> well, i've got jonathan sumption about well known controversialist, but he's coming to talk about the coming in to talk about the hundred years spent 43 hundred years war. he spent 43 years writing about a hundred years writing about a hundred years war. and he's coming to tell it today we are tell me about it today we are going to talking about suella going to be talking about suella braverman very briefly , braverman very, very briefly, i've got little debate about i've got a little debate about oil because rather oil because i get rather impatient with people who say, just what earth just stop oil. what on earth would happen if we did just stop oil shouldn't recognise what oil shouldn't we recognise what oil has done for the world? and start the conversation from there ? and we've got a feature there? and we've got a feature on on a ballet in birmingham which is based on black sabbath . goodness me. >> sounds very intriguing . >> sounds very intriguing. michael looking fonnard to your show at 11. thank you very much. thanks, camilla. now back in manchester. and i'm delighted to have extra special people's have an extra special people's panel today live from conference. joined now let's conference. i'm joined now let's get this right, michael mihai, mihai, jamila and ellis. now

you're all involved in the tory party. you're a tory party member, jamila, you're hoping to be a tory mp fingers crossed. ellis you're a councillor, ellis you're a tory councillor, i wolverhampton , i believe in wolverhampton, correct? so you're all at correct? yeah. so you're all at conference now. let's start with rishi . how think rishi sunak. how do you think he's doing? i think a well he's doing? mihai i think a well it's just shy of a year in the job, right? >> he's, you know, he's, he's competent . he's clearly had to competent. he's clearly had to steer the ship of the party after, you know , tumultuous after, you know, tumultuous period, some of which as a result of the party itself, some of which was, you know, external to it. yes i think some of the data coming out is showing that a lot of those key delivery messages is pretty much earlier are being delivered and they're happening. so i think what you want to see at this conference is, is unity while also having diversity of ideas. >> yes. and jamila, do we miss bofis >> yes. and jamila, do we miss boris johnson at this conference? >> because it's interesting, isn't it? this poll has narrowed between labour and the

conservatives opinion were saying they're now only ten points behind . there were 25 odd points behind. there were 25 odd in the summer. so things have got a bit better and obviously there is some big blonde bombshell missing at this conference. you think conference. do you think delegates be upset about delegates will be upset about that it just calm delegates will be upset about that itjust calm and that or is it just keep calm and carry i think keep calm carry on? i think it's keep calm and on. and carry on. >> obviously, boris is a big character and he does bring a lot of energy him, but he's lot of energy with him, but he's not mp moment. i think not an mp at the moment. i think he's still a member. yeah, it he's still a member. so yeah, it would always fun for him to would be always fun for him to be but i think rishi is be here, but i think rishi is doing a very good job and some on the right of the party have said he's got the charisma of door >> well, a bit harsh. >> well, a bit harsh. >> it's a bit harsh, i'd say. so it's a bit harsh. >> ellis, what do your constituents where are, constituents where you are, a councillor in wolverhampton say about party? are they about the tory party? are they being or they annoyed being shy or are they annoyed they're and they're sitting back and thinking them to deliver they're sitting back and tibiting them to deliver they're sitting back and tibit more them to deliver they're sitting back and tibit more of them to deliver they're sitting back and tibit more of what1em to deliver they're sitting back and tibit more of what we| to deliver they're sitting back and tibit more of what we want,liver a bit more of what we want, throw us a bit more red meat and we'll come back out. what's the situation? >> yeah, think there is a lot >> yeah, i think there is a lot of that. mean obviously of that. i mean obviously wolverhampton, you know, it's a red wall seat. immigration a

red wall seat. immigration is a massive concern. a massive concern. i mean, a lot of hotels in our city centre of our hotels in our city centre are being used to are actually being used to accommodate seekers. are actually being used to accomihow'se seekers. are actually being used to accomihow's that seekers. are actually being used to accomihow's that goneieekers. are actually being used to accomihow's that gone down? >> so how's that gone down? >> so how's that gone down? >> well, i mean it's not, it's not good for anybody. mean, not good for anybody. i mean, it's for the asylum it's not good for the asylum seekers. not good for the seekers. it's not good for the city, it's not good for the local economy. you know, we really see that, you really want to see that, you know, that sort of policy know, that sort of hotel policy coming really, coming to an end really, because, you know, we actually want know, visitors be want you know, visitors to be using hotels, asylum using the hotels, not asylum seekers. issue is seekers. so that issue is obviously huge concern to obviously a huge concern to people. just up people. i think just picking up on said, you know, on what michael said, you know, people starting to see that people are starting to see that actually rishi's plan is starting terms starting to bear fruit in terms of, know, inflation is of, you know, inflation is starting to come down. you know, the is starting to turn. the tide is starting to turn. >> people wolverhampton, >> the people of wolverhampton, like on the like the climb down on the climate i think i would climate stuff. i think i would say broadly that is popular. climate stuff. i think i would say i )roadly that is popular. climate stuff. i think i would sayi mean, that is popular. climate stuff. i think i would sayi mean, that iyou pular. it >> i mean, look, you know, it has to be a sensible, pragmatic approach. i mean, everyone supports, you moving supports, you know, moving to net carbon net zero and reducing carbon emissions, but it emissions, of course, but it can't on the backs of can't be done on the backs of the poor. yes, we have a lot of deprivation and wolverhampton and don't want deprivation and wolverhampton an see don't want deprivation and wolverhampton an see more don't want deprivation and wolverhampton an see more taxes. don't want deprivation and wolverhampton an see more taxes. they on't want deprivation and wolverhampton an see more taxes. they don't'ant to see more taxes. they don't want to see their costs going up. you know, so think it

up. yeah you know, so i think it is pragmatic nihar, you're is a pragmatic nihar, you're from originally. from romania originally. >> i know you've here for >> i know you've been here for a long you're a british long time. you're a british citizen now. i understand, more than congratulations. than ten years. congratulations. welcome. immigration than ten years. congratulations. wnobviously immigration than ten years. congratulations. wnobviously thorny gration is obviously a really thorny topic conservatives. topic for the conservatives. you've got people accusing suella one hand of suella braverman on one hand of dog whistle politics. do you agree she mishandling agree with that? she mishandling this patel this situation? priti patel didn't exactly give her a good review. >> i wouldn't have called her a speech thoughtful as as michael put i think put it. i think i think immigration is good if he's controlled and it comes. but i think it's a fraud. i think people need to take a step back here. and i came to the uk in 2006, so that was pre romania joining the eu . but after the joining the eu. but after the large 2000 enlarged, right, we had ten eastern european countries joining and at the time and that's nothing to do with asylum seekers but it's more broadly about immigration at a time the labour government decided to open up the border straight away, which a lot of other european countries didn't . talks about that. . and no one talks about that. france germany controlling france and germany controlling for another years. think

for another seven years. i think in hindsight was a mistake. in hindsight that was a mistake. so i think immigration is good if controlled and keeps the if it's controlled and keeps the fabric of communities. if it's controlled and keeps the fabric of communities . the fabric of communities. the speech in washington, i think it's unfortunate in some of its statements. >> yeah, you didn't like, i think as well the kind of reference to people claiming persecution on the ground of their sexuality. persecution on the ground of the you xuality. persecution on the ground of the you thought that was a bit >> you thought that was a bit much. >> 1200 people out of which 55% are ugandans, waits death penalty to be prosecuted . so penalty to be prosecuted. so i don't think that was the right thing to pick up on. >> no , perhaps a bit went a bit >> no, perhaps a bit went a bit too far . too far. >> jamila, i spoke to you at >> jamila, now i spoke to you at an event we met, didn't we, in the house commons a couple of the house of commons a couple of weeks said you were weeks ago, and you said you were a young conservative. and i said, that bit of an said, isn't that a bit of an oxymoron what's what's what's oxymoron on what's what's what's going young going on here? you're a young conservative, why and conservative, jamila. why and what attracts you to the party and what are you hoping to do? >> well, well, i'm hoping to reform the welfare state. that's like big legacy. hopefully like my big legacy. hopefully but i'm a but my the reason i'm a conservative is because i believe should be able believe that you should be able to should people to to we should empower people to empower don't empower themselves. i don't

believe too reliant on believe in being too reliant on the state. and i think we're getting into a dangerous situation, especially post covid, where people are always looking government fix looking to the government to fix their don't their problems. and i don't think it's right solution. think it's the right solution. and think sometimes we feel and i think sometimes we feel the pressure kind of do what the pressure to kind of do what they do. but they want us to do. but sometimes got to remind sometimes we've got to remind everyone that the conservative way isn't about us way fonnard isn't isn't about us just and giving and giving. >> very answer from all >> very quick answer from all three you, because we're three of you, because we're running time. chances of running out of time. chances of the of ten winning the tories out of ten winning the tories out of ten winning the next general election. mihai . 6 to 7 9.5. i love that optimism . ellis seven higher optimism. ellis seven higher than we think. perhaps yeah. all right. lovely to see you all. no doubt we'll bump into each other as the course of the conference goes on. hope to not see you too drunk at the midland hotel later, which is the place where everyone hangs here in the everyone hangs out here in the evenings. the way. we've evenings. by the way. now, we've still lot more to come, so still got a lot more to come, so don't because in don't go anywhere, because in just i'm going to be just a minute i'm going to be joined by my telegraph colleague, the top political journalist, his journalist, ben riley—smith. his new the beans on the new book spills the beans on the last years conservative

last 13 years of conservative government for having government pity him for having to be

company right through until 7:00 this evening. gb news the people's . channel well , come people's. channel well, come back to the camilla tominey show live from the conservative party conference in manchester. >> yeah, it's a little bit of a busman's holiday now because i'm here with my telegraph colleague ben riley—smith, written ben riley—smith, who's written this book. the this brilliant book. he's the political editor the political editor at the telegraph, and the book is called to rule poor called the right to rule poor old ben. mean, what a task you

old ben. i mean, what a task you have had to go over the last 13 years, crush where to even begin? what i'm intrigued by, we start another conference. as you know, there's fighting going on left, right and centre. i receive memo overnight receive a memo overnight slagging gove, slagging off michael gove, reminding is a net reminding me that he is a net zero right from an zero zealot right from an anonymous okay then anonymous sender. okay then we've got this whatsapp group being exposed for calling rishi sunak somebody with the charisma of a door. we've got liz truss bringing up the rear saying we can't have any more tax rises . can't have any more tax rises. are they a united party? have they ever been? ben we what is it with this lot? >> well, there's certainly not a united party right now. i think rishi sunak sunak did quite a good job that first year of good job in that first year of stabilising things, papering stabilising things, of papering over i think over the cracks because i think all whether you dislike over the cracks because i think all or whether you dislike over the cracks because i think all or likehether you dislike over the cracks because i think all or like him, r you dislike over the cracks because i think all or like him, they dislike over the cracks because i think all or like him, they accepted rishi or like him, they accepted that last year. these two overhauls look bad with the public, smooth things public, so they smooth things oven public, so they smooth things over. there are huge over. but no, there are huge cracks it. and then cracks beyond it. and then coming you're to see coming days you're going to see them tax on illegal them emerge on tax on illegal immigration and whether to pull out the echr. so yeah, there are deep divisions. and when you are

15, behind in the 15, 20 points behind in the opinion as they are right opinion polls as they are right now, according one now, maybe ten, to according one today, looks a little bit today, which looks a little bit more hopeful. >> think that the >> but why do you think that the conservatives pick conservatives can't pick a leader stick with them? leader and stick with them? i mean, extra ordinary, mean, it is extra ordinary, isn't leaders since isn't it? five leaders since 2016? well, one of the fun bits in the book was trying to get to all these key players and ask them that question. >> so i got to 120 plus people. bofis >> so i got to 120 plus people. boris johnson, liz truss, david cameron, various others. and one thing was the thing that came out was the tories more in tories are more ruthless in their of than their pursuit of power than laboun their pursuit of power than labour. i and have the labour. i think, and have the structures to shape up, shift what they mean to the public. you takes 15% of you know, it only takes 15% of their mps to trigger a no confidence vote in labour. it's 20% and they've all got do it 20% and they've all got to do it on . ed so they have on the record. ed so they have a structure that if they feel the pubuc structure that if they feel the public moving against them, public are moving against them, they rid of leader and they can get rid of a leader and change quickly. yeah, change quite quickly. yeah, i think we've seen think that's what we've seen over the couple years over the last couple of years and that is different from laboun >> priti patel referred to it as throwing the baby out with the bathwater she the bathwater earlier. she meant the deposing boris johnson. deposing of boris johnson. i also asked michael gove, you

know, regret moment know, did he regret that moment when him back in 2016? when he knifed him back in 2016? had he not have knifed him, things have really things could have been really different. mean, do we see different. i mean, do we see that as the catalyst to the destruction that followed? because some times you try and trace all of the roads of kind of tory turmoil back to something? yeah, it sort of does seem to lead back to that that moment . moment. >> think the big moment, >> well, i think the big moment, i was accidental i suppose, was an accidental brexit. if you like. the uk brexit. if you like. yes, the uk government want it to government didn't want it to happen the time. happen at the time. david cameron, george osborne, the pubuc cameron, george osborne, the public voted and then public voted for it and then suddenly you had the economic and tossed the suddenly you had the economic an(and tossed the suddenly you had the economic an(and was tossed the suddenly you had the economic an(and was in tossed the suddenly you had the economic an(and was in that sed the suddenly you had the economic an(and was in that scrambles air and it was in that scramble that followed that you got these betrayals. know, michael betrayals. you know, if michael gove on boris gove hadn't turned on boris johnson leadership race johnson in the leadership race right referendum, right after that referendum, probably boris johnson would have prime minister, have become prime minister, probably the roots would probably the grass roots would have brexiteer and have picked a brexiteer and then maybe would have had he maybe you would have had he would had ability to would have had the ability to pushit would have had the ability to push it through parliament. maybe won next maybe he would have won the next election. where election. that came where theresa may should have won. really. was miles ahead. really. she was miles ahead. yes. lost. but no, think yes. and lost. but no, i think brexit kind seismic brexit is the kind of seismic moment this years, the

moment in this 13 years, the before after point. and it's before and after point. and it's since brexit. you know, cameron was leader for 11 was in power tory leader for 11 years before that. and then you had three had these kind of three successive in 6 or successive changes in 6 or 7 years. so certainly that kind of scrambling the snowglobe scrambling of the snowglobe of politics, this has had all these repercussions it. politics, this has had all these reprhat ions it. politics, this has had all these reprhat do 5 it. politics, this has had all these reprhat do you it. politics, this has had all these reprhat do you make of some >> what do you make of some suggestions in the week that liz truss eyeing up second bid? truss is eyeing up a second bid? should go wrong for the should it all go wrong for the tories next general election? >> ben i don't think she genuinely thinks she can be leader minister again, leader or prime minister again, but thinks she but i do think she thinks she can who will be the next can shape who will be the next prime minister or leader again. and why she's championing prime minister or leader again. andkind why she's championing prime minister or leader again. andkind ohoy she's championing prime minister or leader again. andkind of sideihe's championing prime minister or leader again. andkind of sideihetheiampioning prime minister or leader again. andkind of sideihethe argumentg the kind of side of the argument that believes in the tax that she believes in the tax cutting, the scaling back of regulations, because me, it regulations, because to me, it seems got one on seems like she's got one eye on what could happen late next year if election. there if they lose an election. there is race. she wants is a leadership race. she wants those and side of those policies and that side of the prevail. despite the to party prevail. despite what happened last autumn. >> and think cincinnatus >> and do you think cincinnatus bofis >> and do you think cincinnatus boris to come back some boris wants to come back at some point, return from his plough and up power? and take up power? >> i'm sure he is given the >> i'm sure if he is given the snapshot. mean, saw it last snapshot. i mean, we saw it last yean snapshot. i mean, we saw it last year, right? he was out of downing street for something

like six yes, seven like six weeks. yes, seven weeks. still tried to come weeks. and still tried to come back. if there was back. so i'm sure if there was possibly a way do it, he possibly a way to do it, he would. i mean, there are quite a few steps there now. he's got somehow get back into parliament. doubt parliament. so i doubt it's imminent. it's imminent. i don't think it's going to be in the next race. but sure keeping half but i'm sure he's keeping half an it. he said when he an eye on it. he said when he was leaving, i'm stepping away from parliament for now. so i think if there was ever the opportunity, jump opportunity, he would jump at it. >> how do you think rishi sunak is saying to nigel is doing? i was saying to nigel nelson i think in nelson earlier, i think he's in a better position now than he was six months ago. can he gain momentum? hear from was six months ago. can he gain mo people?? hear from was six months ago. can he gain mo people? he's hear from was six months ago. can he gain mo people? he's very hear from was six months ago. can he gain mo people? he's very confident,)m his people? he's very confident, he's bullish. he thinks they can win election is, win whenever the election is, which do think, which is when do you think, spnng which is when do you think, spring or autumn? i still think it's autumn. >> i don't quite understand the rationale be rationale for why would be spring. mean, liken it to spring. i mean, i liken it to a man with a guillotine above hanging above their neck and kind snipping the kind of willingly snipping the rope. are so rope. you know, if you are so far behind, why don't you think give it a couple of months and maybe something come maybe something will come up. you know, an argument you know, there's an argument for lasted longer for boris johnson lasted longer as minister because

as prime minister because ukraine out from ukraine war happened out from the field calmed the left field and it calmed tory nerves because they had to rally the minister. rally behind the prime minister. >> misplaced optimism >> but is it misplaced optimism for you think, for rishi sunak? do you think, or chance they could or is there a chance they could actually this? or is there a chance they could act|well, this? or is there a chance they could act|well, neveri? or is there a chance they could act|well, never say never, no. >> well, never say never, no. you know, in 2017, theresa may was miles miles, miles ahead of jeremy corbyn, ended up jeremy corbyn, and she ended up at end that campaign at the end of that campaign losing i losing the tory majority. i mean, think what they really mean, i think what they really think in on think is if you zoom in on specific policy areas rather than just loosely thinking about politics, draw these politics, they can draw these dividing have the dividing lines that have the electorate side electorate the right side of them and labour. so net zero drive is possibly trans issues, possibly tax cuts later down the line. well is it as simple as that? >> you know, clarify by whether or not a woman can have a penis, scrap iht bring corporation tax down, carry on with the climate , climb down, do a couple of other things that are good for the righties and everything will be okay. >> well, the problem is on the big stuff they classically run on, you have a problem because normally it's economic competence front and centre in a tory re—election that tory re—election bid and that has away after the

has drifted away after the debacle in the autumn and the changes the market. so the changes on the market. so the strategists are scrabbling around trying to pick things that they zoom they that if they zoom in on, they can labour on on that. can beat labour on on that. >> do we think rishi sunak is happy hunt? i say this happy with hunt? i say this because again, there were some whispers week, you whispers in the week, you know what's relationship like? what's their relationship like? because and because it's not osborne and cameron, it ? cameron, is it? >> no. and point one is i write in book jeremy hunt was not in the book jeremy hunt was not rishi sunak first that's right. >> he was having he had to be oh, by the way, you're oh, told, by the way, you're going keep this guy going to have to keep this guy to keep the markets happy and sunak, i thought showed a sunak, which i thought showed a bit political naivety, sort bit of political naivety, sort of hadn't considered of went, oh, i hadn't considered that. think, yeah, won that. i think, yeah, if he'd won in that summer, i think the names that were knocking around were john glenn. >> these types of figures who are very close to rishi for that spot. but he came after the spot. but he came in after the second next year, which was second race next year, which was all markets, all about calming the markets, calming party. if you had calming the party. if you had a chancellor switching chancellor there, switching the chancellor, thought chancellor, i think they thought it would too of of an it would be too much of a of an upheaval. think they quite upheaval. i think they are quite like minded. they're both kind of tories who of moderate, centrist tories who believe in fiscal responsibility. but yeah,

certainly he had certainly true that if he had a clean slate in the summer, he wouldn't picked hunt for wouldn't have picked hunt for the on sunak the truth and on sunak to finish. >> who is this guy really? >> ben, who is this guy really? i mean, you look at his maiden speech, it's thatcherite. speech, it's very thatcherite. he brexiteer, he says, i am a brexiteer, although didn't do that much although he didn't do that much kind high profile kind of high profile campaigning. claims campaigning. he's like claims to be a conservative, sometimes be a conservative, but sometimes he very well disguised. he keeps it very well disguised. >> yeah, in the >> and yeah, well, in the telegraph, the weekend, we telegraph, at the weekend, we interviewed oliver dowden, deputy pm, but also close interviewed oliver dowden, de rishi pm, but also close interviewed oliver dowden, de rishi and but also close interviewed oliver dowden, derishi and he also close interviewed oliver dowden, derishi and he said, close interviewed oliver dowden, derishi and he said, look,:lose interviewed oliver dowden, derishi and he said, look, thee to rishi and he said, look, the truth is this guy is much, much, much of a traditional low tax, low regulation tory than sometimes on. and sometimes he might let on. and i think autumn you will see think this autumn you will see the rishi beginning to think this autumn you will see the uplishi beginning to think this autumn you will see the uplishi say, nning to think this autumn you will see the uplishi say, look, to think this autumn you will see the uplishi say, look, i'm not stand up and say, look, i'm not just an administrator here. i do have ideology. all right, have some ideology. all right, let's the another let's give the book another plug. let's give the book another plu look, brilliant, says andrew >> look, brilliant, says andrew marr. good. right marr. it must be good. the right to that's by ben to rule. that's by ben riley—smith it's out all riley—smith and it's out in all good bookshops now, and it's a right read. it's brilliant. right good read. it's brilliant. thank you, ben, with thank you, ben, for being with this morning. know you're this morning. i know you're going very, busy going to have a very, very busy conference. as said to stephen conference. as i said to stephen fimms conference. as i said to stephen timms, going to be at the timms, we're going to be at the labour party conference next week liverpool, here week in liverpool, but from here in manchester been

in manchester it's been emotional. so emotional. i've enjoyed it so far, so good. on tech far, so good. on the old tech technical i we're technical front, i think we're doing right. and we had doing all right. and we had michael advocating news michael gove advocating gb news survival, a good survival, so that's a good thing, lovely to see thing, too. lovely to see you all. thank you for being with me. of course, portillo me. of course, michael portillo is up next at 11:00 and is back up next at 11:00 and i'll see you next week, 930 in liverpool . liverpool. >> hello there. i'm greg jewhurst and welcome to your latest gb news weather forecast. we do have rain in the forecast over the coming days, but there'll be some bright spells at times too, and temperatures generally on the warm side, particularly as we head towards next weekend. pressure next weekend. low pressure generally dominating the pressure over the next pressure pattern over the next few days, bringing spells of rain . but eventually high rain. but eventually high pressure start move in pressure should start to move in by of the week. this by the middle of the week. this afternoon, we do have bright spells northern ireland, spells across northern ireland, scotland scattered scotland with a few scattered showers here, thicker rain showers here, some thicker rain towards parts of shetland. this cloud, as well, stretching from southwest england into wales, the parts of east the midlands, parts of east anglia will give some spells of rain brighter to the

rain at times brighter to the south—east. and here temperatures lifting to around 2324 elsewhere, 2324 celsius. elsewhere, generally the high teens to low 20s . so on the warm side for the 20s. so on the warm side for the time of year, frontal time of year, this frontal system tries to move a little further south and eastwards as we go through this evening into the early hours. clear spells generally elsewhere, still a scattering across scattering of showers across northern particularly northern ireland, particularly northwest . some of northwest scotland. some of these on the heavy side. the winds here, too. and winds picking up here, too. and for temperatures, largely for most temperatures, largely staying figures . and a staying in double figures. and a warm night across the far south where it will be quite a cloudy start to morning. some start to monday morning. some outbreaks of light rain and drizzle and through the drizzle and then through the day, frontal system starts day, this frontal system starts to little further north to push a little further north again. so again. and reactive out. so we'll see spells of rain across england wales. there'll be england and wales. there'll be some interludes at some brighter interludes at times, that rain times, too. some of that rain could heavy, perhaps could be heavy, perhaps thundery later in the and later on in the day and temperatures getting into the low

later . later. >> good morning. and welcome to sunday with michael portillo . a sunday with michael portillo. a two hour weekend ramble through arts culture, politics and debate. the scene has been set for the conservative party conference in manchester today, but not by the prime minister so much as by the home secretary, suella braverman, arguably the most cabinet minister, most outspoken cabinet minister, has interventions on has launched interventions on the refugee convention. multiculturalism and the european court of human rights. is she charting a course for the future of conservatism or bidding to lead her party?

thankfully, england's messy entanglement with europe is a good deal less than it used to be. lord jonathan sumption will join me in the studio to talk about the hundred years war, which encompassed the battle of agincourt and joan of arc. his fifth volume on the war titled triumph and tragedy, concludes over 40 years of work by the former supreme court justice and history scholar and describes the collapse of english power in france . the fruits of english france. the fruits of english soil were tragically despoiled in northumbria . and this week, in northumbria. and this week, a centuries old sentinel of hadrian's wall, a beautiful sycamore tree, was illegally felled in the dead of night, a 16 year old and a man in his 60s have been arrested. we'll speak to a photographer for whose images of the tree captured its spiritual grandeur . the grand spiritual grandeur. the grand century of london's theatre scene. stefan kyriazis will be here to update me on four shows that he's been to see this week, including a ballet in birmingham inspired by the city's heavy

metal heroes. later on,