good morning and welcome to the camilla tominey show live from the labour party conference in liverpool. we've of course got another big line up of guests for as ever. i'm going to be for you as ever. i'm going to be joined by wes streeting, the shadow health secretary, live from what are from conference. what are labour's for and labour's plans for the nhs? and after scrapped after the government scrapped the northern leg of hs2, i'll be speaking to the transport secretary, harper , we secretary, mark harper, as we were liverpool. speak to were in liverpool. i'll speak to merseyside's, mp merseyside's, longest serving mp , labour's sir george howarth. how does he think this city has changed in the time that he's been office and the been in office and after the horrifying scenes we've seen in israel? i'll be speaking to israeli sharren haskel . we've israeli mp sharren haskel. we've also got some expert analysis coming up of all things labour with tony blair's former right hand man, john mcternan and gb

news own christopher hope. so stay tuned for that. let me bnngin stay tuned for that. let me bring in our paper reviewer this morning, alan milka mihaylova . i morning, alan milka mihaylova. i did practise this with you, anna, anna, michela, the deputy political editor of the mail on sunday, joins me now. lovely to see you, anna. great to see you . mean, at the end of the day . i mean, at the end of the day , story that has dominated , the story that has dominated the sunday papers quite understandably, the understandably, has been the situation in israel. there's a huge amount of coverage of it because happened late for because it happened too late for it into yesterday's it to get into yesterday's papers. mean, it's wall to papers. so, i mean, it's wall to wall, as you'd imagine. if we look at a situation like this and it seems very far away and it's hard to connect and yet already we have these very, very human stories on the front of your newspaper, the headline simply don't kill me showing the human of the terror attack. human cost of the terror attack. this young woman, 25 years old, called noah's , been taken from called noah's, been taken from some kind of peace rally just on the border of the gaza strip. she's been put on the back of a hamas motorbike separated from her boyfriend. we don't know

what's happened to this girl. she's many people she's one of many, many people with women, children who have been affected by this. >> yeah, i mean, i was in the newsroom yesterday and just seeing the horror, first of all, in the morning of the paragliders, you know, these terrorists coming starting terrorists coming in, starting the . and then the story the attack. and then the story unfolded where it emerged that they were just taking civilians hostage. so not only were civilians being killed and a lot of being put out on of the footage being put out on social horror of social media, the horror of families seeing their loved ones affected through looking at these videos and then and then you see stories like noah's that makes the front of the mail on sunday where she's a young girl, a young woman who was attending a young woman who was attending a festival nearby with a a music festival nearby with a bunch of other young people . bunch of other young people. absolutely nothing to do with any conflict, any war, anything. and was snatched on a motorbike and has taken it to gaza. and this has been a tactic that was used on grandmothers , children, used on grandmothers, children, women, people , people who are

women, people, people who are just being seized. and it appears to be i mean, the horror for their families. no one really knows what's happened to them. but it appears from reports today that they're going to be used as either bargaining chips or perhaps human shields to ward off attacks . but it's to ward off attacks. but it's absolutely horrific. and i think you look a woman like that you look at a woman like that and the reason these stories are important tell that important to tell is that that could anyone's sister. that could be anyone's sister. that could be anyone's sister. that could daughter, could be anyone's daughter, anyone's mother. >> heard a horrific >> we've also heard a horrific story of an israeli woman being paraded through the streets dead half naked. let's look at the response to this from netanyahu , who in the sunday mirror. it's basically saying, look, israel, we are at war. now. netanyahu is saying that civilians should leave gaza ahead of retaliation . this is only going to get worse. anna >> yes. well, he put out a statement very quickly yesterday day making it clear that israel is at war, which as anyone would expect, of course, it is . it is. expect, of course, it is. it is. this is the biggest terror attack and the biggest security failure as well, not being able

to stop it in 50 years. it was precisely on the anniversary date, you know, to the day of the henri paul war. so now israel has to respond, is already responding. so there is no surprise there . no surprise there. >> and how about the western world? because there has been some coverage this morning sort of talking about whether, again , you know, we perhaps saw this with ukraine following the invasion crimea. invasion of crimea. has the western world been at the western world been asleep at the wheel? got bob seely, the wheel? you've got bob seely, the mp the of wight, mp for the isle of wight, writing your newspaper, writing in your newspaper, saying biden in the white saying with biden in the white house, wonder terrorists house, no wonder the terrorists felt then in the felt emboldened. and then in the telegraph, the sunday telegraph, you've frost, former you've got david frost, former brexit minister, talking about we must stand by a friend in a time of need. if it is defeated, so is the west. i mean, has the west been asleep at the wheel on this one? i think there's a couple of things going on. >> firstly, there is very little appetite across the world to get involved even engage in more involved and even engage in more conflicts . yes, part , conflicts. yes, in part, understandably, because people have serious economic situations

at home. they've got problems. but the world is globalised. so something in israel affects everyone else. yes and america has certainly not been taking a very big leadership role in the middle east. it has traditionally has has had a bolder role to play . and then bolder role to play. and then what bob seely what david frost are arguing today and what other mps are arguing today and what other mp5 i are arguing today and what other mps i was speaking to yesterday, they all point the finger to iran and they say one the big iran and they say one of the big problems that the west, problems is that the west, including , have been including britain, have been cosying iran , have not cosying up to iran, have not been taking a hard enough line , been taking a hard enough line, while same time iran has while at the same time iran has been sponsoring terrorism and arming hamas. >> i mean, where are they getting some of these drones, some of these paragliders from? let's move on to domestic matters, we're here matters, because we're here in liverpool labour party liverpool for the labour party conference. yes. we're calling this count your this section. don't count your chickens because starmer has told don't get giddy told his party, don't get giddy over prospect of election win . over prospect of election win. he complacent this he can't be complacent this week, can he, anna? >> he can't. i mean, look, he's

in a very good position starting this conference not only in a very good position starting this csoference not only in a very good position starting this cso farnce not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in not only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in theiot only in a very good position starting this cso far ahead in the polls, .y is he so far ahead in the polls, he's also just come off a massive by—election win. yes. so a significant one at that. but 20% swing, was it to labour in scotland swing? yeah and if that's replicated then he's home and dry with a majority. yes. so he's sort of putting a note of caution out in the observer. my favourite line in this, a lot of it is sort of common sense. of course, no one should get complacent. none of the labour actors should get complacent. that's his message to the party. but where keir but there's a quote where keir starmer won't starmer saying, you won't see any at this any razzmatazz at this conference from him. >> were we expecting any razzm atazz? >> i razzmatazz? >> i mean, all those people banking from keir banking on razzmatazz from keir starmer should stand down, be disappointed. >> well, as ever, a of disappointed. >> �*man as ever, a of disappointed. >> �*man race ver, a of disappointed. >> �*man race between of disappointed. >> �*man race between sunak)f disappointed. >> �*man race between sunak and two man race between sunak and starmer in the personality stakes . you've got some really stakes. you've got some really interesting polling which is headuned interesting polling which is headlined trusted protect headlined pm trusted to protect women's rights and would beat starmer a 10—k race. okay, starmer in a 10—k race. okay, that's great. delta poll. that's great. from delta poll. however, voting intention is still and tories still 43 to labour and tories well behind on 28. what i found

interesting about this data , interesting about this data, however, was the question to those surveyed does sunak represent real change? obviously, his speech at the tory party conference is very much about him being the change candidate, which after 13 years people said really? and when asked that 26% agreed he was a change candidate and 60% said he wasn't. he was just more of the same. however does starmer represent real change, which you would expect people to say yes, it's actually only 35% say yes. and 47% say he just represents more of the same. so who is the change candidate at the next general election? because it's not these two don't know. >> i think there's a really interesting point here, which is that for rishi sunak, his strategy, point out, is strategy, as you point out, is to the change candidate. i to be the change candidate. i mean, there's an irony here because remember when because we all remember when bofis because we all remember when boris johnson was genuinely the change off change candidate and pulled off a electoral and a huge electoral feat. and i don't remember him calling himself change that himself the change counter that much people have much. i think other people have to that . but much. i think other people have to that. but rishi sunak's to do that. but rishi sunak's calling himself the change candidate, make candidate, is desperate to make change keir change candidate happen. keir starmer doesn't really need to

do that because by virtue of him being the labour opposition leader, that is the change. >> doesn't he have to nail some colours to the mast? but a lot of criticism of him not really opposing much that the government's done. i'm going to raise this with wes streeting who's on just who's coming on just in a moment, but doesn't he need to set stall because people set out his stall because people are saying, well, we love all the soundbites, but where's the substance to anything that you're would you're proposing? how would you run become run the country if you become the prime minister? you the next prime minister? do you think say more in think he's going to say more in his about that, anna? his speech about that, anna? well, i think he has to, but i don't actually think the expectation going expectation is that he's going to much. to say that much. >> i the message from >> i think the message from labour staffers is he labour staffers is that he actually can be quite boring in his which is sort his speech, which is sort of sort of remarkable hear. but sort of remarkable to hear. but in a way i think they think people essentially going to people essentially are going to vote for their own vote for them for their own reasons and that they don't need to they don't need to show reasons and that they don't need to leg ey don't need to show reasons and that they don't need to leg ey d early eed to show reasons and that they don't need to leg ey dearly on. to show reasons and that they don't need to leg ey dearly on. tois1ow any leg this early on. it is still about a year out from a silent assassin approach. >> let tories implode >> just let the tories implode and very and watch it happen. very briefly, let's just speak about

this that starmer this interview that starmer has done the mirror on the sunday done in the mirror on the sunday mirror. that's traditional that the leader does speak the labour leader does speak to the labour leader does speak to the the of the sunday mirror on the eve of conference. he's going conference. yes. and he's going with 1.5 billion with the nhs. my 1.5 billion plan clear the waiting list plan to clear the waiting list backlog . it will rescue our backlog. it will rescue our nhs after of neglect . after 13 years of tory neglect. is it the right thing to be doing to targeting the nhs? doing to be targeting the nhs? >> here we go. we've got >> well, here we go. we've got a bit of actual policy and even some numbers on it. i think it's an direction from an interesting direction from him he's also i like the him and he's also i like the fact that in the mirror he's talking wife who works talking about his wife who works for trying to for the nhs. so he's trying to do of personal and a bit do a bit of personal and a bit of policy which whether or not it will please enough people and show about show what he's really about remains to see. >> but it's quite a lot of pressure on him. he's got to perform wednesday, not least pressure on him. he's got to perforwe'vewednesday, not least pressure on him. he's got to perforwe've got nesday, not least pressure on him. he's got to perforwe've got angela not least pressure on him. he's got to perforwe've got angela raynerist when we've got angela rayner coming doesn't want to coming up today. doesn't want to be by his deputy. be overshadowed by his deputy. >> yeah, absolutely. and i think we might expect some razzmatazz from we might expect some razzmatazz frorthat she's the one with the >> that she's the one with the razzmatazz. anna mihaylova, thank indeed for thank you very much indeed for joining this morning. lovely joining me this morning. lovely to jack to speak to you. now jack carson, i hope is down the road for us in liverpool this week

with people's panel. jack with the people's panel. jack what questions our panel what questions have our panel got our guests this i got for our guests this week? i hope can hear yeah well, hope you can hear me. yeah well, good morning to you, camilla. >> we're here in the heart of the city at the lucy in the sky cafe here, where lots of people, including us, have enjoying including us, have been enjoying our breakfast morning. and our breakfast this morning. and we're the by we're joined on the panel by lesley tony lesley, let's lesley and tony lesley, let's come to you first. i mean, west streeting, health streeting, the shadow health secretary on on on the secretary on on the on the interview list this morning as well mark mean, well as mark harper. i mean, what kind question have you what kind of question have you got you want to put to those people? >> i think basically we've got a huge waiting list in the, you know, people waiting for operations. been mooted operations. and it's been mooted that they're going to use private hospitals to actually help reduce the waiting list . help reduce the waiting list. and i thought that was something that the labour party were against, you know, sort of this idea of privatising the health service, etcetera. and i was wondering how they square it with their basic principles. >> i mean, for mark harper as well, the transport secretary of course, been a big week for the

conservatives scrapping that second leg of hs2. i mean, what what can mark harper answer for you? what can mark harper answer for youwell, think there's been a >> well, i think there's been a war against motorists and you've got sadiq khan in london sort of crippling motorists who are elderly , who are sort of on elderly, who are sort of on lower incomes by ulez . you've lower incomes by ulez. you've got angela rayner saying if labour get in, you're going to spread it all over the country. ijust spread it all over the country. i just wondered what their attitude is towards us, the motorists, and are they going to make life easier for people who are older and, and have got less money to play with? >> i mean, tony, you know, former labour member for you, i mean, what questions have you got for wes streeting on the panel today ? panel today? >> well, i want to talk a little bit about transport. i think a positive development in liverpool the last few days liverpool in the last few days is that the metro is the news that the metro mayor, steve rotheram , has said mayor, steve rotheram, has said that the local authority will once again take control of bus franchises , which will mean that franchises, which will mean that services can be standardised

across the whole region . an across the whole region. an whereas the ridiculous situation at the moment and i feel this is at the moment and i feel this is a social care worker who has to go different places to work where you can buy a ticket for one bus. it's not valuable, it's not valid on another either operator's service . so this will operator's service. so this will allow and i think this this could be a model for the whole of britain, for towns and cities across britain to once again look towards publicly owned bus services or publicly controlled. at least i mean, obviously here in liverpool, you know , at this in liverpool, you know, at this party conference. >> keir is going to be looking to set out his vision if labour were to win the next general election. i mean, what could he say in the next few days that would that would persuade you to vote for him? >> there are so many >> i think there are so many issues now, you know, being mentioned waiting list mentioned about a waiting list for the health service. there's also housing. you know, this affects my family as well, living at overcrowded social housing. there's a long, long wait for any bigger accommodation in the area. i

live in, in wavertree, there's so many properties as people die off with a soul to outside property speculators that turned into multi occupancy homes for students or from people outside the city outside the country. so ijust the city outside the country. so i just want to know really what the labour party would do to start building social housing again or affordable housing in general for working people. >> i mean, that's something that we're expecting to hear from of course. angela rayner speech today, commitment more today, commitment to more affordable know, affordable housing, you know, would that give you would that would that give you the trust back that you need to vote for labour ? vote for labour? >> well, one that some detail would i don't know what form that take, you know, will that will take, you know, will we get back to the days when million were being million houses a year were being built labour or tory built by labour or tory government, was the case government, which was the case for maybe 30, 35 years after the war? >> i mean, leslie, what do you make on what angela rayner can say today? what could she say maybe that would that would, maybe that would that would, maybe steve towards labour . maybe steve towards labour. >> some positive policy >> i think some positive policy is where the same policies seem

to exist more than a week at a time. i think the problem is, is flip flopping this sort a change in the mind all the time so you don't really know which direction they're actually going in whether they actually in and whether they actually mean i mean , as a voter, how mean it. i mean, as a voter, how do you feel? >> do you feel that the main parties are are an option for you now? >> there's getting to be very little difference between them . little difference between them. i mean, if somebody said to me , i mean, if somebody said to me, i mean, if somebody said to me, i heard rather recently, so comparing rishi sunak and starmer and saying that they're like two middle managers and you can imagine them running a sales meeting, but, you know, running the country , you don't they the country, you don't they don't sort of fill you full of confidence that they they're dynamic or they've got sort of they've got everybody behind them. they both seem to be leading very divided , you know, leading very divided, you know, sort of parties, you know , the sort of parties, you know, the labour divided, the conservatives are divided. you know, there's no consensus really. there's not one shooting

off in the right direction. you know, that you feel you could be towed along behind it. right. >> leslie? tony, thank you very much for joining >> leslie? tony, thank you very much forjoining us so far >> leslie? tony, thank you very much for joining us so far on the people's panel this morning. so there for your so big questions there for your guests . guests today. >> great job, jack and leslie and tony. thank you very much. well, joined now by wes well, i'm joined now by wes streeting shadow health secretary ilfo rd secretary and mp for ilford north for labour. where's lovely to see you this morning. thanks for joining me. thanks for forjoining me. thanks for having let's ask you, having me on. let's ask you, first of all, for your reaction to on in israel over to what's gone on in israel over the to 48 hours. the past 24 to 48 hours. >> i think the barbarity that we're seeing unfolding our we're seeing unfolding on our television on our television screens and on our social media feeds is horrifying . i cannot imagine what people in israel are going through and i mean, literally cannot imagine what it must be like to be under that kind of threat of violence, kidnap, rape, murder . i that kind of threat of violence, kidnap, rape, murder. i think there's no justification whatsoever whatsoever . it needs whatsoever whatsoever. it needs to be unequivocally condemned . to be unequivocally condemned. and to those who support the cause of palestine and human

rights and statehood , as you rights and statehood, as you know, as i do, and i think you know, as i do, and i think you know, most of us would, this isn't resistance we're seeing. it's terrorism. and our country has got to stand against it and stand with israel's to stand with israel's right to defend itself. >> note , i mean, i know >> on that note, i mean, i know you've always been very strong in your positioning about your past with past association with anti—semitism in the party. as you say, hamas is a terrorist organisation , yet we've seen organisation, yet we've seen some celebrating this in some people celebrating this in the streets of london. i mean, should they should the police investigate crimes investigate them for hate crimes potentially, do think? potentially, do you think? >> think they need >> certainly. i think they need to at whether crimes are to look at whether crimes are being committed and being committed here. and i would people who i think would say to people who i think with justification, worried about palestinian human rights, are worried about the escalation of violence, want to see a state of violence, want to see a state of palestine along the state of israel alongside a state of israel. what we're seeing on our screens , i not only can't be screens, i not only can't be justified in human terms and the barbarity and the fear that the families are going through, it also sets back the cause of

peace. yes and so people celebrating on the streets of london and elsewhere in the uk had to ask themselves is where is their humanity ? and do they is their humanity? and do they think that that's to going build support for a just cause or set it back? because i genuinely believe the only future for israelis and palestinians is a two state solution through peaceful negotiation. yeah and the pursuit of that cause is made harder, not easier, by what we've seen . we've seen. >> can i just point out some of your colleagues are going to be attending pro—palestinian events in the coming days at conference. we already saw your colleague, espanha begum, who's the labour mp for poplar and limehouse . she was posing with limehouse. she was posing with palestinian activists yesterday. we've mcdonnell , the we've got john mcdonnell, the former chancellor jess former shadow chancellor jess barnard, who's on labour's nec. mick whelan, the general secretary of aslef , are all secretary of aslef, are all planning go to for justice planning to go to a for justice palestine on tuesday . is palestine event on tuesday. is this appropriate? well i would say i would draw a distinction between legitimate and serious

events and campaigning for a just cause. >> yeah . and the celebration of >> yeah. and the celebration of violence. but what i would say to people in this of all weeks, if you are going to attend such events or show your support for the just cause of a palestinian state, but also take the opportunity to condemn unequivocally the violence that we're seeing perpetrated against israelis because we in the labour party, we support a two state solution. we support the palestinians right to their own state, but we stand unequivocally with israel and her right to defend herself. some of the organisers here, i mean, i can't imagine what what would know, but some of the would you know, but some of the organisers these events, we organisers of these events, we defend organisers of these events, we def they're organisers of these events, we defthey're planning to march on organisers of these events, we def israelil planning to march on organisers of these events, we def israeli embassy. to march on organisers of these events, we def israeli embassy. io march on organisers of these events, we def israeli embassy. i mean,h on the israeli embassy. i mean, thatis the israeli embassy. i mean, that is totally inappropriate for any labour mp to be associated with people. think associated with people. i think i doing the only associated with people. i think i that|g the only associated with people. i think i that shouldthe only associated with people. i think i that should be only associated with people. i think i that should be taking march that should be taking place on israeli embassy place is on the israeli embassy today is a march of solidarity with the israeli people and with those families that have lost

loved ones or are desperately frightened for loved ones. >> that's the solidarity that should be shown today. >> john mcdonnell needs to think twice about seeming to be on the side of some of these palestinian activists at this time show some sensitivity . time show some sensitivity. >> he i just say , particularly >> he i just say, particularly against this backdrop, the horrifying scenes we've seen on our television screens condemn unequivocally the violence. yes. the senseless. and if they don't, again , against the don't, again, against the israelis, i actually think they will, because i think that i don't understand how as a human being, you could see these scenes. yeah. and not show compassion in and support for families that are going through something that i simply can't imagine. >> let's move on to your brief, because you're man who hopes because you're the man who hopes to be the next health secretary you've you're you've announced that you're trying to waiting times. trying to cut waiting times. we've heard from keir starmer today he's an today as well. he's given an interview to sunday mirror interview to the sunday mirror where says he's got a 1.5 where he says he's got a 1.5 billion plan to bring these

numbers down. how are you going to do that ? numbers down. how are you going to do that? not numbers down. how are you going to do that ? not least when you to do that? not least when you talk about diagnostic talk about more diagnostic testing, you're going to need more staff. and that's been a problem for the nhs for the last three decades or more. >> you're absolutely right. and that's why we're committed to the biggest expansion in nhs the biggest expansion in of nhs staff history, the staff in history, doubling the number nurses, number of doctors, more nurses, all the nhs needs all the staff that the nhs needs to treat patients on time. but everyone that takes time everyone knows that takes time and we grip the immediate and we can grip the immediate crisis in nhs of the backlog crisis in the nhs of the backlog on waiting list. if we're on the waiting list. if we're smart about how we use the capacity that's there in the system. so using tried and tested methods that are already being used in a small number of nhs trusts in the country, but could be deployed elsewhere, we . will fund £1.1 billion for .will fund £1.1 billion for evening and weekend clinics, delivering 2 million more appointments a year. >> that's what are you going to get pushback from the unions on that though? do they want to work evenings and weekends? >> look, i can offer them >> well, look, i can offer them the reassurance that are the reassurance that staff are not be compelled to do not going to be compelled to do

this. don't all staff, this. we don't need all staff, anything staff to do anything like all staff to do this is going to have enough staff to i i have staff to when i when i have spoken about it, spoken to the unions about it, i think what they say is as long as it's not compulsory and as long as staff are paid fairly, which would be, not which they would be, it's not compulsory. work? compulsory. will it work? pockets of nhs staff? yeah, because look, this is because i think look, this is and is the government and this is where the government have fundamentally wrong have got it fundamentally wrong on workforce, the on the nhs workforce, the doctors, the nurses, the midwives, the porters, the cleaners got through some cleaners who got us through some of times in the of the darkest times in the history the with the history of the nhs with the pandemic. they really care about their patients. there we the their patients. there we go. the extra mile. their patients. there we go. the ext|you've. their patients. there we go. the ext|you've got doctors, junior >> you've got doctors, junior doctors mean, doctors still on strike. i mean, would give them 35? how much would you give them 35? how much would you give them 35? how much wotl've been i've been honest >> i've been i've been honest with them and said we can't afford 30. put a number on it. but the beauty what we've but the beauty of what we've proposed million more proposed with the 2 million more appointments that's £1.1 appointments is that's £1.1 billion pockets billion into the pockets of nhs. >> would you give them to stop them striking? them from striking? >> well, know not going >> well, they know i'm not going to do shadow negotiations. >> just give us general >> go and just give us a general ballpark. not going to ballpark. no, i'm not going to do too much. if it's do shadow 35 too much. if it's ten little. ten too little. >> the health secretary today, i

wouldn't be daft enough to give away position and away my negotiating position and i the i actually wouldn't expect the government but government to either. but we would be willing to sit down and negotiate. and i think, again, that's rishi has got that's where rishi sunak has got this because he's this wrong, because he's not done a day negotiation done a single day of negotiation with and given the with nhs staff and given the damage are doing, we damage the strikes are doing, we would get a ballpark would like to get a ballpark from labour. >> i think i think it's fair to ask when people have had their hospital and doctor's appointments there's appointments delayed and there's 7.6 waiting, we would appointments delayed and there's 7.6 to waiting, we would appointments delayed and there's 7.6 to know/aiting, we would appointments delayed and there's 7.6 to know from 3, we would appointments delayed and there's 7.6 to know from labour,)uld appointments delayed and there's 7.6 to know from labour, how like to know from labour, how would it, what would like to know from labour, how wou give it, what would like to know from labour, how wou give them? it, what would you give them? >> and i think the reassurance i can give is that during the last labour government there were no national the nhs national strikes in the nhs because treated fairly. national strikes in the nhs bec negotiated lated fairly. national strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with fairly. national strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them fairly. national strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them and'. national strikes in the nhs bec negotiated with them and we we negotiated with them and we worked to deliver the worked with them to deliver the shortest times plan for shortest waiting times plan for the involve more the nhs, involve more privatisation, not privatisation. with privatisation. we will work with the sector bring down the private sector to bring down nhs for faster the nhs waiting lists for faster the simple reason we've two simple reason we've got a two tier our country at the tier nhs in our country at the moment where those can't get moment where those who can't get seen are left behind those seen are left behind and those who can afford to pay private are seen. farage are getting seen. farage have you no, you ever paid privately? no, i did when worked at comet. this did when i worked at comet. this is an old i am now and when i was student i needed a small

was a student i needed a small operation. is it fair enough ? if operation. is it fair enough? if i'd private insurance paid by my employer? i'm not going to i'm not to judge people who go not going to judge people who go private. going to judge private. i'm not going to judge employers provide private employers who provide private medical insurance or staff who take up it's perfectly take it up like it's perfectly reasonable choice to make. but what want sure is that what i want to make sure is that no in this country ever no one in this country ever feels forced go private or feels forced to go private or gets left behind if they can't afford to go private. and i want to make the nhs so good that there a couple of questions. there was a couple of questions. ineed there was a couple of questions. i need to go private. a couple of questions from tony. >> all, i'm trying to >> first of all, i'm trying to read it. >> was trying to read his >> i was trying to read his lips, talking about bus franchising. >> will you bring that back? and he asking about social he was also asking about social housing. i it's obviously housing. i mean, it's obviously easy criticise tories for easy to criticise the tories for 13 not enough 13 years of not enough housebuilding, equally housebuilding, but equally they'll and say they'll turn around and say there wasn't enough housebuilding yeah. >> that's fair criticism >> and that's a fair criticism as which take on the as well, which you take on the chin. i'll say things in chin. i'll say two things in response that. first is we response to that. first is we can already see the difference that labour in power is making. look what andy burnham has look at what andy burnham has done manchester, done in greater manchester, bringing back in

bringing the buses back in house. value house. better value for taxpayers, lower fares for passengers. seeing passengers. and we're seeing other labour doing other labour mayors doing similar a labour similar things. we want a labour government right government support people right across the country to deliver better services and on the better bus services and on the on the second point, which was just remind of franchises and just remind me of franchises and sorry we've talked that sorry, we've talked about that social housing. >> forgive me. >> forgive me. >> yeah, yeah. so look fair criticism that know criticism that you know successive have successive governments have got this wrong . angela rayner who is this wrong. angela rayner who is now shadow housing secretary, like me , grew up a council like me, grew up in a council flat. we lived on it. >> how many would you build? >> well , if you've got a target, >> well, if you've got a target, angela's setting out her stall this week. so can see her speech. >> what would like to see it >> what would you like to see it be? 300,000 a year or something like that? >> well, not going to pluck >> well, i'm not going to pluck a out of thin air a figure out of out of thin air to pluck figures thin air. >> i would like to know because you do want to govern this country. >> i'll tell you why. and you'll be able to see everything spelled our manifesto. spelled out in our manifesto. we're determined to make sure that promise we make a that every promise we make is a promise we keep. because promise we can keep. because turning around this country's challenges. well, you say that. >> i keir starmer said in >> i mean, keir starmer said in 2015 hs2. now

2015 he wanted to scrap hs2. now he keep it. he says he he wants to keep it. he says he doesn't want to go back into the eu. but david lamont is suggesting that he does. he's flip on quite lot of flip flopped on quite a lot of policies. minute they're policies. one minute they're stripping of stripping private schools of their the their charitable status, the next back on that. next he's rowed back on that. oh, on, you've got a green oh, hang on, you've got a green prosperity that rachel prosperity pledge that rachel reeves said we can't reeves has now said we can't afford. is captain flip afford. so he is captain flip flop, he? flop, isn't he? >> no, and i'll tell you >> no, no. and i'll tell you what, quite what, on on hs2, quite reasonably. as local mp, keir reasonably. as a local mp, keir had concerns about the disruption that would occur to some his some of the housing in his constituency. concerns constituency. those concerns were thinks it's were addressed. he thinks it's an national an important national infrastructure project. the whole the whole labour party does. the government's hole government's just blown a hole in you ensure that in it. would you ensure that some of the people who had to compulsorily their houses compulsorily sell their houses for longer for a line that's no longer being constructed be able being constructed should be able to back? being constructed should be able to i back? being constructed should be able to i bet back? being constructed should be able to i bet they're k? being constructed should be able to i bet they're feeling sick >> i bet they're feeling sick and bet they're feeling and i bet they're feeling furious and should be. furious and they should be. >> what it says and this is >> and what it says and this is my anxiety about it, what my deep anxiety about it, what it in addition to the it says is in addition to the lost opportunity of new of lost opportunity of the new of the rail infrastructure, the the new rail infrastructure, the jobs, opportunities and the jobs, the opportunities and the supply also says to supply chain, it also says to international investors and to other can't international investors and to ottbig can't international investors and to ottbig infrastructure can't international investors and to ottbig infrastructure anymore.

international investors and to ottbig infra:tragedy. anymore. international investors and to ottbig infra:tragedy. we've)re. international investors and to ottbig infra:tragedy. we've got and what a tragedy. we've got some the best builders, the some of the best builders, the best most best architects, the most creative designers this creative designers in this country. do big country. we can do big infrastructure, hs2 from infrastructure, more hs2 from laboun infrastructure, more hs2 from labour, need leadership. labour, but you need leadership. the i would the problem is, camilla, i would love able to say, look, love to be able to say, look, don't worry, guys, we'll be in and do hs2. but the and we'll do hs2. but the government have hole in it. >> i'm not to leave it. there was. thank you very much, wes streeting lovely to you. streeting lovely to see you. >> thanks for

welcome back to the camilla

tominey show live from the labour party conference in liverpool. lots more to come. in the next hour, i'm going to be quizzing the transport secretary, mark harper, on the government's decision to scrap hs2. in liverpool hs2. and as we're in liverpool for the labour party conference, i'll joined longest i'll be joined by the longest serving merseyside , serving mp on merseyside, labour's all labour's george howarth. all that and more after the news with theo theo chikomba . with theo theo chikomba. >> it's 10:00 with theo theo chikomba. >> it's10:00 on with theo theo chikomba. >> it's 10:00 on theo with theo theo chikomba. >> it's10:00 on theo chikomba in the newsroom . i'm benjamin in the newsroom. i'm benjamin netanyahu has vowed to take mighty vengeance against the terrorist organisation hamas after more than 250 israelis were killed and more than 1500 injured. in a surprise attack. more than . 313 palestinian towns more than. 313 palestinian towns have also died after hamas fired thousands of rockets and gunmen stormed the border , local news stormed the border, local news reported. israeli civilians in border towns barricading

themselves in their homes, pleading for help. the israeli military say they are still fighting hamas in eight areas near gaza . hamas says israeli near gaza. hamas says israeli captives are being held in secure places, include tunnels. israel israel's prime minister said hamas wants to murder russell m. >> what happened today has never been seen in israel and i will make sure that it does not happen again in the entire government is behind this decision. the idf will immediately use all its strength to destroy hamas's capabilities . we will destroy them and we will take mighty vengeance for this black day that they have forced on the state of israel and its citizens . and its citizens. >> speaking to gb news, israel's deputy ambassador to the uk, oren marmorstein held back tears as he discussed the scenes after the attacks . the attacks. >> this girl . and she has blood >> this girl. and she has blood all over her body , grabbing her all over her body, grabbing her by her hair and the terrorist

shove her into a car . and her shove her into a car. and her eyes, petrified eyes thinking what they're going to do to me. what kind of people commit these atrocities to other people , to atrocities to other people, to children ? these are the children? these are the terrorists we are dealing with . terrorists we are dealing with. >> police in london are stepping up patrols after reports of people celebrating the violence in israel. videos have emerged appearing to show people in various parts of the city with flags flying whilst clapping in celebration . immigration celebration. immigration minister robert jenrick shared one of the videos posted on social media. he described those celebrating as disgusting and said there is no place for anyone who glorified the terrorist activities of hamas. in a statement , scotland yard in a statement, scotland yard said the met has increased patrols in parts of the capital.

labour's party conference is getting undennay in liverpool and there's already been a big ticket promise for the nhs . sir ticket promise for the nhs. sir keir starmer has pledged £1.5 billion to tackle nhs waiting lists . under the proposals, lists. under the proposals, doctors and nurses would be paid overtime to carry out more procedures out of hours, creating more than 2 million appointments each year . the appointments each year. the labour leader has told a reception last night that rishi sunak had been nodding dog leading to years of failure and it was time for change. this is gb news across the uk on tv , in gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's camilla. now it's back to . camilla hello, now it's back to. camilla hello, welcome back to the camilla tominey show. >> in just a moment, i'm going

to be speaking to transport secretary mark harper. i'm also going to joined by the going to be joined by the longest mp in liverpool longest serving mp in liverpool , howarth. and we'll , sir george howarth. and we'll get tel aviv from get an update from tel aviv from an mp. also going to an israeli mp. i'm also going to be joined a bit later on by two top political wonks. gb news is chris hope and blair's former number two, john mcternan. for some expert analysis of what's proven very busy proven to be a very busy conference season. but first of all, let's bring mark harper, the transport secretary tory mp for the forest of dean, into the conversation. thank you so much for joining me, mark. it's great forjoining me, mark. it's great to see you this morning . in to see you this morning. in regard israel , a mourning, a regard to israel, a mourning, a horrific situation playing out on the streets of israel today. i wondered what your reaction was to those celebrating this terror attack by hamas on the streets of london. an should they be investigated by the police for hate crimes ? police for hate crimes? >> well, the events of yesterday were barbaric , with israel were barbaric, with israel coming under attack from a terrorist organisation , hamas terrorist organisation, hamas

and the british government stands unequivocally with israel. its right to defend itself and what it needs to do to deal with the hamas threat . to deal with the hamas threat. and hamas is of course a proscribed and terrorist organisation in the united kingdom. so anybody expressing support for it is committing an offence and i would hope that the metropol police will investigate carefully any reports of anybody doing so and will take all the necessary steps aftennards. thank you. >> let's move on to domestic matters now. the conservatives didn't have a great night in rutherglen and hamilton west . rutherglen and hamilton west. there was an 11% swing against the tories there, 20% swing towards labour . i mean, have the towards labour. i mean, have the conservatives given up on scotland? mr harper ? scotland? mr harper? >> no, we absolutely haven't. i mean, clearly that contest was one where i think people thought that it was between labour and the snp. but no, we absolutely haven't. we're campaigning very hard. our leader in scotland, douglas leader of douglas ross, is the leader of the the scottish

the opposition in the scottish parliament will continue parliament and we will continue campaigning strongly on important scotland , important issues in scotland, like for example, the fact the government's renewed oil gas government's renewed oil and gas licences. we're going to to licences. we're going to need to get that oil and gas out of the ground as we transition to a net zero future. and it's important that do and that's been that we do that. and that's been opposed both labour and the opposed by both labour and the snp. so we're fighting for the people scotland and growing people of scotland and growing the economy . the scottish economy. >> naturally, i'll be asking you about hs2, mr harper, on the 30th of june this year, you tweeted, and i quote, in japan, i saw the benefits high speed rail can bring to connect communities and grow the economy . that's why, the global . that's why, despite the global inflationary pressures, we remain committed to remain fully committed to building hs2, building . it building hs2, building. it shows, we believe in britain and so does cancelling it show that you no longer believe in britain ? >> not at all. it shows that when the facts change, you have to change your mind. so look, first of all, we've recommitted to building the first phase from london, from london, euston to birmingham. and we're continuing

to deliver that. and that's having a big transformative effect, particularly on the economy in birmingham. but look , we've looked at the cost pressures. the increasing cost pressures. the increasing cost pressures that are facing constructing this project and the conclusion we came to was that those increased costs against the reducing benefits partly because of the way business and commuter traffic has changed after the pandemic, means that it's a better use of taxpayers money to take that £36 billion of savings and reinvest it in transport projects across the north and midlands and the rest of the country to deliver for the people of britain. so i think the facts have changed. all right. >> let's talk about increasing cost pressures. >> that's why we made the decision. we some might decision. we have some might question whether the facts can have changed june. have changed since june. >> let's be honest, >> and also, let's be honest, we've known about the cost pressures of this project for years, but let's years, not months. but let's look 36 billion be look at that 36 billion to be spent on new transport projects in the north. labour say 85% of them are . old

them are. old >> no, that's simply not true . i >> no, that's simply not true. i mean, let me give you an example. the last thursday i was up in bradford . we're now able up in bradford. we're now able to commit to building a new station, new lines to bradford, improving their connection to manchester and elsewhere there. that was welcomed by the labour mayor, the labour leader of the council, the labour mayor of west yorkshire. they think that will help grow their economy and work very well with the ambitious regional plans they've got for the city. so i think that was a clear commitment, not able to be funded until we made the decision. we did last week, but able to be funded . but now able to be funded. >> why is the metrolink tram to manchester airport in there as a new project when it was built in 2014 ? 2014? >> well, because it currently goes to only one terminal of manchester airport, what we were talking about was extending it to the further terminal. so that's a new investment for a new piece of connection to the airport . i new piece of connection to the airport. i agree. it could new piece of connection to the airport . i agree. it could have airport. i agree. it could have been better worded, but it's

very clear we're now going to extend that connection to the second terminal. >> could this whole document i'm holding it up now , mr harper holding it up now, mr harper network north transforming british transport . court. did british transport. court. did you proofread this document as transport secretary >> look, it's look, i'm very proud of that document. it's £36 billion of extra transport investment across, as i said, the north, the midlands and the rest of the country. i think there were significant projects in there that were not able to be funded previously. we can now deliver them over the years to come and people will start seeing the benefits in a few weeks time as we keep the bus fare capped at £2, not going up to £2.50 and money from next spnng to £2.50 and money from next spring to local authorities to invest in local roads. and i think those are important priorities for people across the country . country. >> but did you proofread this document because it's relocate outside manchester and preston , outside manchester and preston, it suggests that southampton and

portsmouth are in the north, but littlehampton is in the north. i mean, if i turned in a piece of copy like this to the telegraph, i think my editor would have a lot of problems with it. it's riddled with errors, isn't it? well, , look. well, well, look. >> no, no, no, it isn't. look there was one mistake between that had at bognor regis and that we had at bognor regis and littlehampton. which is littlehampton. one, which is a mistake. agree. that was mistake. i agree. that was a mistake. i agree. that was a mistake. but look, it's a it's a significant document. a significant amount of spending across the north, the midlands and the rest of the country. i think it will be widely welcomed in those parts of the country where people can see more transport investment . i accept transport investment. i accept not everyone will agree with the decision but it was the decision we took, but it was the right decision for the long term interests of the country . interests of the country. >> on decision about the >> on the decision about the manchester leg of hs2 . are you manchester leg of hs2. are you going to apologise to people going to apologise to the people that their homes? that had to sell their homes? one i think it cost him his one man, i think it cost him his business for nothing . business for nothing. >> look, i accept that for those people where their properties were purchased for the leg of

hs2, that's not going to happen. look, i don't expect them to be particularly happy with the decision we've taken, but it was it is the right decision for the country . there's a clear process country. there's a clear process now that will follow legal process to deal with all of those property claims. but look, i accept that for those people that have had a personal situation, which has been difficult, they're not going to be particularly happy. but government make the right government has to make the right decision the country. and decision for the country. and that's minister that's what the prime minister did week . did last week. >> are you going to be voting in favour of this smoking ban? i appreciate it's the sales appreciate it's the ban of sales to children who are now that to children who are now 14. that includes my eldest child. but will you be voting in favour of that? know you're that? because i know you're a libertarian, harper. libertarian, mr harper. i remember being a very vocal remember you being a very vocal force in the covid research group. you don't like to tell your constituents what to do, so why are you making the exception on smoking in so well? >> look , first of all, it's >> look, first of all, it's a free vote, but i am going to be voting for it for this reason. and i'm very much, i think, in the same place as the prime

minister. i'm not in favour of telling people what they can eat and what they can drink because it's for people judge the it's for people to judge the levels want to do levels that they want to do themselves. difference with themselves. the difference with smoking there's safe smoking thing is there's no safe level smoking. i don't think level of smoking. i don't think anybody their children to anybody wants their children to take smoking. so actually take up smoking. so i actually think sensible plan to think this is a sensible plan to get to a point in the future where nobody smokes. i wouldn't support doing it for other things where there are safe levels . but i think things where there are safe levels. but i think for smoking, there's safe level of i there's no safe level of it. i think this is a good plan. prime meant children taking up smoking. we know that most people up smoking do people that take up smoking do so children and then they so as children and then they find hard to kick the find it really hard to kick the habit. so i backed the prime minister on this plan i will minister on this plan and i will be voting for it. >> but isn't obesity now a bigger killer than smoking? >> look , obesity is a big >> look, obesity is a big challenge for the nhs and there is work to do on giving people the information they need to make choices about a healthy diet. but the difference is it's for people to make judgements about how much of different

sorts of food they consume. the difference with smoking is there's no safe level of smoking and there's really no one that i've ever met that would like their children to take up smoking. so this plan is about making sure we stop children taking up smoking in the first place. it's good for public health, i think it's the health, and i think it's the right thing to do and i will be supporting it. >> were once immigration >> you were once immigration minister are a member under david cameron. you the david cameron. would you use the same as your colleague? same language as your colleague? suella braverman when it comes to describing to migrants describing hurricanes, floods, torrents as is she using the right rhetoric here? >> well, look, i think the point the home secretary is trying to emphasise is that there are huge number of people around the world who would qualify under the refugee conventions , and we the refugee conventions, and we have to have limits on the number of people that can come here. that's why we are putting in place our plans that are opposed every step of the way by the labour party to tighten up on the rules. it's why we've had some success already a 20%

some success already with a 20% reduction in the number of people coming on those channel crossings. we've got to crossings. but we've got to break back of the business break the back of the business model of those smugglers . well, model of those smugglers. well, look, we all choose our own language. i choose my own. but look, the point she was making was that there's a significant number of people that could come to this country . we can't we to this country. we can't we have to have controls and set the rules for ourselves. it has to be the british people that set the rules about who can come here. that was the point she was making. and i strongly support that. that particular point. she was it's the was making. it's the government's tough border government's policy tough border controls, boats controls, stopping the boats coming and opposed every step of the way by the labour party. >> when do you reckon the first flight to rwanda will take off? mr harper? >> well, look, as you know, we that policy has been challenged in the courts. there's a court heanng in the courts. there's a court hearing tomorrow. i very much hope we'll be successful. it's worth just reflecting on the fact just today the labour leader was asked whether he

would support the rwanda plan and even if it were shown to be working and he said he wouldn't. now that doesn't make sense . now that doesn't make sense. we've got a clear plan to break the business model of these organs , these criminal gangs who organs, these criminal gangs who trafficked people across the channel and cause many of them to lose their lives. that's not the right thing to do. we're going to robustly implement our plan, fonnard to plan, and i look fonnard to seeing first flights take seeing the first flights take off soon. >> thank you very much indeed for this morning. forjoining me this morning. mark harper, transport secretary, to secretary, lovely to speak to you . well, i'm joined now by you. well, i'm joined now by another tory. well, he was a tory, at least former defence secretary michael portillo gb news, presenter from 11. now, michael , i'd news, presenter from 11. now, michael, i'd just like to ask you, first of all, what do you make of what mark harper had to say, this transport in the north plan has gone horribly wrong, hasn't it? i i got used to the idea that britain is now not able to build anything competently. >> i hadn't yet got my head around the idea that the civil service ministers were service and ministers were unable a unable to put together a document competently. you

absolutely him on the ropes absolutely had him on the ropes on that one. i mean, it really is pathetic. by the way, on my programme i will be asking the question is it that britain question how is it that britain just build any large just can't build any large projects today? when you think back used to be in back to what we used to be in victorian times, it's pathetic. >> and let's have your reaction , please, the events in , please, to the events in israel . sir michael it's hugely israel. sir michael it's hugely concerning . we've got netanyahu concerning. we've got netanyahu talking about retaliation . yes, talking about retaliation. yes, there's no happy ending to this, is there? there's so many of your commentators already have said it is absolutely horrific. >> i mean, for the time being, it's fairly straightfonnard for the west because hamas is regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries in the west , organisation by most countries in the west, and organisation by most countries in the west , and therefore the in the west, and therefore the condemnation is straightfonnard where it's all going to become more complicated is when the israelis retaliate. netanyahu is making it very clear that this is a war. the retaliation will be huge and substantial. also, it is well known to everyone that what lies behind this is

iran . and maybe the intention is iran. and maybe the intention is to provoke conflict between israel and iran. it's a complicated situation for netanyahu as well. he's gone through a very difficult period with prosecutions, with an extraordinary coalition that he now runs. he hoped that his legacy was going to be the normalisation of relations with saudi arabia, that is now very much in doubt. and he has presided over a situation where the israelis have been caught completely off guard in a way that's unprecedented in the last 50 years. >> and michael , tell me who else >> and michael, tell me who else you've got on the show. i know you're discussing big infrastructure projects, but what else ? what else? >> well, by an extraordinary coincidence, there's a film out about golda meir starring helen mirren . i'm going to be talking mirren. i'm going to be talking to the screenwriter. it is a gripping film and it deals oddly enough, with the way in which israel was unprepared for the onslaught by syria and egypt in 1973. so we've got some fairly

heavy subjects today, but i hope people will also tune in in case they're thinking of celebrating sober october . we're going to sober october. we're going to have some non—alcoholic cocktails . cocktails. >> oh, i love a non—alcoholic cocktail being a teetotal . cocktail being a teetotal. michael, i wish i was in paddington for that. you'll have to me some. very much to save me some. very much looking fonnard show at looking fonnard to the show at 11. you very much. do stay 11. thank you very much. do stay tuned for that, everybody. now, 11. thank you very much. do stay tunencrosshat, everybody. now, 11. thank you very much. do stay tunencross backzverybody. now, 11. thank you very much. do stay tunencross back to rybody. now, 11. thank you very much. do stay tunencross back to jack:iy. now, 11. thank you very much. do stay tunencross back to jack carson�*, let's cross back to jack carson now the road in now. he's down the road in liverpool the people's liverpool with the people's panel. you'll have noticed panel. jack, you'll have noticed that i did manage to ask, where's tony's two questions on bus franchise and social housing? what's the response there ? there? >> yeah, well, welcome back to a very busy lucy in the sky cafe. we're still joined, of course, by lesley and tony, of course, who have watched intently to those interviews that you did. camilla with with wes and with mark harper. but, tony, let's come to you first, because, of course, camilla did ask, where's about wes streeting, about about the wes streeting, about your on your kind of questions on on kind bus services and kind of those bus services and also housing as well. i mean, what did you make of his responses to those questions? what did you make of his res|well,; to those questions?

what did you make of his res|well, ito those questions? what did you make of his res|well, i think se questions? what did you make of his res|well, i think the uestions? what did you make of his res|well, i think the problem’ >> well, i think the problem with now is with the labour party now is this they can make big commitments, but they're so far away from really needs to away from what really needs to be done. i think the terrified of accused of being left of being accused of being left wing or socialist. but on some things you need to be socialistic about it. you know , socialistic about it. you know, we've got massive waiting lists for social housing. i think i saw a figure of five people looking at every room or house for rent . you've got houses for rent. you've got houses formerly family homes in liverpool where i live in wavertree, being bought up by outside property speculators turning into multi—occupancy homes for students or from people who are just moving to the city or just moving to the country. and those family homes are disappearing and we need crash really ? crash programme of crash really? crash programme of social housing building like we used to have in the post—war period. >> so, i mean, listening to what he said on those points, i mean , do you do you trust labour more with with that issue? you know what do they need to say

for you to go. yes i believe that you've got like a proper plan. >> well, i'd like to know who's going to be in control of the plan. you know, to me, you need to go back to the days when local authorities had huge responsibility housing. they responsibility for housing. they were building, were responsible for building, maintaining, letting, renting, housing. that kind of ended with the right to buy in the thatcher period. so i'd like to see a return to those days because, you know, local people, local authorities, they more the authorities, they know more the needs of local areas and governments in westminster. >> leslie when we heard wes streeting talking about, you know, labour's plan for the nhs, it's going to be, you know, unveiled this week to get down waiting times. that was something, course, showed something, of course, you showed concern about a little bit earlier in the mean, earlier on in the panel. i mean, listening to him, are you any earlier on in the panel. i mean, listemoreto him, are you any earlier on in the panel. i mean, liste more reassurede you any earlier on in the panel. i mean, liste more reassured byju any earlier on in the panel. i mean, liste more reassured by whaty earlier on in the panel. i mean, liste more reassured by what he any more reassured by what he said were to get into power? >> well, he mentioned . six days >> well, he mentioned. six days of hang on, see you. >> hello there. i think we've lost the feed to jack there with the people's panel so let me

bnngin the people's panel so let me bring in my next guest. so i was just having a chat to somebody here who's questioning whether gb news speaks to left wing voices. and we've got one here in studio. george howarth in the studio. so george howarth joins the labour mp joins me now. he's the labour mp for he's the longest for knowsley. he's the longest serving and serving mp on merseyside. and george, i don't want to you george, i don't want to make you feel but my goodness feel old, but 1986, my goodness me, me, how's liverpool me, tell me, how's liverpool changed the years in some changed over the years in some ways to the point of being beyond recognition ? beyond recognition? >> yes. when i was elected in 86, in a by—election in my constituency , which was then constituency, which was then knowsley north, yes, we had a unemployment rate of over 20. good grief . unemployment rate of over 20. good grief. um, it's unemployment rate of over 20. good grief . um, it's now unemployment rate of over 20. good grief. um, it's now around 5. it came down particularly under the last labour government . and you know that in itself changes everything. and it's similar in across the city region. yes um, we saw massive progress during the time of the

last labour government in the health service, in education. >> do we attribute any of the progress to michael heseltine or does that annoy you as a liverpudlian? >> i wouldn't deny yeah , that >> i wouldn't deny yeah, that michael heseltine i was a local councillor during that era and in a very difficult politico situation locally . he did some situation locally. he did some good things . um, just down the good things. um, just down the road from where we are. yes albert dock. yeah. >> the renovation of the docks has been extraordinary. it was an amazing thing to do. >> um , and he understood and >> um, and he understood and that, you >> um, and he understood and that , you know, >> um, and he understood and that, you know, cities like this needed to change and they needed help to make that change. but also, i mean , you know, it's also, i mean, you know, it's important to note that apart from him , if you look back over from him, if you look back over that period, the conservative party have virtually abandoned

ed? >> yes. is that how you feel that they've sort of turned their back on liverpool in the north? yeah. i mean, they virtually i mean, they will exist. they'll will counteract that and no, we've come out that and say, no, we've come out with this new northern rail plan instead of doing the hs2 leg to manchester. i mean are you convinced document? convinced by that document? i was mark harper was waving at mark harper earlier that they'll put 36 billion into northern rail infrastructure and buses? >> no, i'm not, because if they can't be relied on to deliver hs2 , having spent billions and hs2, having spent billions and billions of pounds on it. yeah. why would anyone say, oh, that's all right. now you've got a new document. >> yeah, but you're not convinced by it, george. clearly, no. let's talk about the labour party and where things are at now with keir starmer . i things are at now with keir starmer. i mean, things are at now with keir starmer . i mean, there is things are at now with keir starmer. i mean, there is some criticism that he's not opposing enough. you know, the conservatives are coming out with climb downs on the climate . they're talking about scrapping hs2 and their other policies and actually the labour leader hasn't really pushed back very against them. he's

very heavily against them. he's doing this silent assassin thing where anything where he doesn't say anything and waits the tories to and waits for the tories to implode. but opposition implode. but the opposition has got oppose the government, got to oppose the government, hasn't it? >> , yes. >> yes, yes. >> yes, yes. >> but at the same time , when >> but at the same time, when you're hopefully a government in waiting, you've got to be responsible. yes and one thing, one of the many thing good things about keir is he's very responsible and so too responsible, though too safe as well. you know, some people might be saying that, but people are looking for a government they can rely on. yeah, a government that will behave responsibly with taxpayers money. and for us to be saying, yeah, we'll do that, i mean , at yeah, we'll do that, i mean, at the last general election we had 100 page manifesto with hundreds of billions of pounds of spending commitments. and even in agencies like mine, people were saying , well, are you going were saying, well, are you going to pay for all this? >> yes. so the constituents themselves are a bit suspicious of massive spending pledges at a time of a cost of living crisis. >> and they think you've got to

live as government within your live as a government within your means. keir is very means. and keir is very conscious rightly so. >> so. >> let's talk about this result up in rutherglen, because it's significant this significant for labour. this i mean, are the snp basically finished in scotland? if labour make the same sorts of gains in other seats 20% swing? >> yeah . >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i mean look, i, i didn't manage to get to rutherglen and yeah, for various reasons but train strikes probably well no it was stuff i had on locally but i went to selby and, and it was clear there were, the people thought do you know what i've been voting tory. yeah it's not working . yeah. i want something working. yeah. i want something different. i want a government with different values and i think that's happening in scotland as well . scotland as well. >> i get that. although they're not crying out for starmer in the they were. he's the way they were. blair he's not blair, he ? not a blair, is he? >> no, blair was a man of >> no, but blair was a man of his times . i think keir is a man his times. i think keir is a man

of his times. yeah. um . tony you of his times. yeah. um. tony you know, had a particular. i was a big supporter of him . he had big supporter of him. he had a particular style of leadership. that was right. >> but what you're trying to say, george, is he's got more charisma than starmer has, and that might a problem for that might be a problem for the laboun that might be a problem for the lab well, mean, if charisma is >> well, i mean, if charisma is everything, but it isn't . i everything, but it isn't. i think people are looking think what people are looking for is steadiness , reliability , for is steadiness, reliability, trustworthiness and i think tony had that and he had other things as well. >> you could argue to a point. george, final question. i have to ask this on behalf of my stepmother, who i know will be watching this show , massive watching this show, massive liverpool fan, should that liverpool fan, should that liverpool versus spurs match be replayed because of the var catastrophe ? i know you're a catastrophe? i know you're a liverpool fan as well, george. what's your verdict? it should. yes, it should. thank you very much. george howarth . we love a much. george howarth. we love a politician who answers a straight question with a straight question with a straight answer. you very straight answer. thank you very much indeed. >> well, i'll try my best.

>> well, i'll try my best. >> you try your best. you've always your best since always tried your best since 1986. much, 1986. thank you very much, george. anywhere. george. don't go anywhere. because a minute, because in just a minute, we're going the from going to get the latest from israel, where i'll be joined by

patrick christie's on gb news. i'm gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now we've seen these appalling scenes in israel as fighting continues to break out. i'm going to be joined now by sharren haskel. she's the

member of the knesset for the centre right party, the national union party . see sharon. thank union party. see sharon. thank you very much indeed for joining me. i can i can only imagine is an absolute appalling time for you and fellow israelis. can you describe the situation there for us to give us an idea of exactly what's going on? >> thank you, camilla. um this has been one of our most devast stating attacks that we've experienced in more than 50 years since the war of yom kippur. this wasn't just a declaration of war by hamas, but this was actually war crimes that were committed against the israeli people. these were crimes against humanity. if you follow some of these videos that were published , these are women were published, these are women who has been taken as hostages as they invaded , they as they invaded, they infiltrated 22 towns in the country of israel, in the state of israel, going from house to

house, completely, completely massacred . family after family . massacred. family after family. we're talking here about women , we're talking here about women, children, elderly . this is children, elderly. this is civilian , innocent civilian civilian, innocent civilian population. these are children . population. these are children. and, you know, this was not just a declaration of war, but it was actually crime wars and acts against humanity committed by hamas, against israel . hamas, against israel. >> sharon, before we go on, i just want to ask you whether you are safe, whether your family is safe . do you have anyone safe. do you have anyone directly connected to you that's been affected by what's happened so far ? so far? >> of course. i mean, we have 300 dead and the body are being counted. we have 1800 casualties and the numbers still are going up. um, you know , one of the up. um, you know, one of the head of the municipality in in, in the area was shot dead while

trying to defend his family. his wife and his child at the entrance of his home. now, this is the head of council that was trying to build an industrial area that is shared by israelis and gazan citizens . i mean , you and gazan citizens. i mean, you know, we've seen women being taken as hostages into the streets of gaza . you know, the streets of gaza. you know, the site that we are seeing are similar to the sites that we've seen in videos spread by isis, by guys all around the middle east. we are extremely worried about our hostages . these are about our hostages. these are women, children , elderly, that women, children, elderly, that are being taken to gaza . and by are being taken to gaza. and by what we've seen in the footage is they are being abused , being is they are being abused, being spat on in the streets of gaza . spat on in the streets of gaza. i'm extremely worried. i'm worried about my family , my worried about my family, my friends, members that i've known, that i know . and we're known, that i know. and we're still looking for them . um, um ,

still looking for them. um, um, yeah.i still looking for them. um, um, yeah. i mean, this is a devastating situation . devastating situation. >> are people trying to leave ? >> are people trying to leave? has there been a rush on the airports ? i happen to have airports? i happen to have a friend who's got a relative in israel. he's coming trying to come back via jerusalem . what's come back via jerusalem. what's the situation on the ground ? one the situation on the ground? one would imagine that israelis are now living in fear of their lives . lives. >> so the military have recruited a the reserve forces in order to go down to the south to bring back the safety and the security of the citizens in our country. it means that they're probably going to go and they they are trying now to fill a liberating , uh, to, i think liberating, uh, to, i think towns left in order to bring those citizens into safety . the those citizens into safety. the army , most of the citizens army, most of the citizens around the gaza strip in order

to go into a full on a military defence move that is needed in order to liberate , uh, you know, order to liberate, uh, you know, children that are and women that are being taken hostage and are being held captive in gaza . being held captive in gaza. unfortunately, hamas has forced us to go into gaza again. this is something that we didn't anticipated because in 2005, israel completely evacuated the strip of gaza from every single living jew. they were given an autonomy . they were declared by autonomy. they were declared by the united nations. and unfortunately, instead of building a beautiful single poor from this area to the gaza people have voted democratic elections and have turned it into a nest of terror. while investing all of their funds, money and energy on hatred , on money and energy on hatred, on violence, on arms , to fight violence, on arms, to fight against israel . against israel. >> sharon , what should the

>> sharon, what should the western world do now? we've had some commentary in our papers this morning questioning joe biden's international leadership, also of course, the question of how hamas managed to carry out this surprise attack in the first place is , well, in the first place is, well, camilla, this will be remembered probably as the first day of war between israel and iran. >> hamas doesn't have the capability of creating such an attack. we're talking of a whole battalion of terrorists running towards the fences, getting infiltrating 22 towns and massacring family after family. we have technological capabilities . we have a strong capabilities. we have a strong army and you need to understand who is standing behind this attack. and it's iran. the international community has to join forces together. they have to single out iran and take them out of the united nations on any kind of form. and any kind of

membership , because they are membership, because they are standing behind one of the worst massacres that i've seen. this is not just camilla, an attack on israel. this is an attack of extremist islam, of radical islam on the western world. listen, if they will prevail again , a country who values the again, a country who values the values of democracy, of freedom , of liberty, the next one in the line will be europe and more countries will follow up . this countries will follow up. this is a cool war that iran has opened against israel and against the western world, and the values that we share and chensh the values that we share and cherish so much . cherish so much. >> sharon heskel , very, very >> sharon heskel, very, very thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning on what i know is a very, very difficult time for you and fellow israelis. and stay safe . israelis. try and stay safe. well, don't go anywhere because in just a minute, i'm going to be getting some top political analysis from two top political wonks. gb news own christopher hope and tony blair's former

spinner, john mcternan . we'll be spinner, john mcternan. we'll be back there's help for households. are you over state pension age? if your weekly income is below £201.05, or £306.85 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. it's worth, on average, £3,500 a year, and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus cost of living payments.

you company right through until 7:00 this evening. gb news the people's . channel people's. channel >> hello there. i'm jonathan vautrey, who is your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office with a month's worth of rain having fallen over some parts of scotland already this weekend, things will be turning just bit drier as we head just that bit drier as we head into the start the week. into the start of the new week. these lingering these fronts are still lingering around throughout so around throughout sunday, so still some outbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. some outbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. initially, tbursts around throughout sunday, so sti rain. initially, butsts of rain. heavy initially, but they will slowly begin to ease off as we head throughout the

day, patchier day, generally turning patchier and lighter, but still likely that see some impacts that we will see some impacts dunng that we will see some impacts during of the rest of during the course of the rest of this weekend. elsewhere, a drier end the weekend, some sunny end to the weekend, some sunny spells trying to break through, but quite a lot of cloud across northern england into of northern england into parts of northern but northern ireland as well. but temperatures above temperatures widely above average of year, average for the time of year, seeing highs around 25 c in the south—east band in the south—east the rain band in the north sink southwards north generally sink southwards as head overnight as we head into the overnight period, itself period, positioning itself across parts of southern scotland, the scotland, fringing into the parts northern as parts of northern ireland as well. elsewhere a largely dry night. a lot of cloud, though, pushing into western coastal areas quite murky areas will turn quite murky here, mild for most of us, here, a mild one for most of us, though, temperatures not dropping 11 to 15 c, dropping much below 11 to 15 c, a fair amount of cloud to start off monday morning, a fair amount of cloud to start off monday morning , then off monday morning, then particularly thick in this band from northern ireland, southern scotland, northern england and some of the cloud along western coastal areas could linger throughout the throughout a good chunk of the day. the sunshine day. best of the sunshine developing central southern areas again, areas of england. and again, temperatures notably temperatures will be notably above where we'd normally expect them this point in october, them for this point in october, 24, 25 c possible. again, 24, 25 c possible. once again, the heat won't last throughout

the heat won't last throughout the the week, though the entirety of the week, though something and a bit something cooler and a bit wetter midpart by . by by >> by >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show live from the labour party conference in liverpool. i'm delighted to be joined by describing them as to political wonks. don't know political wonks. i don't know whether disparaging or whether that's disparaging or not. mcternan , former not. john mcternan, former political secretary to tony blair, me along with blair, joins me along with christopher hope gb news is political editor who's had some kind of never ending journey from scotland down to liverpool to here hello chaps. to be here today. hello chaps. lovely you. should we lovely to see you. should we look and then look look backwards and then look fonnards? yes. let's look back at tory party conference. at the tory party conference. john, free on john, you've got a free hit on this one. what did reckon? this one. what did you reckon? what think rishi's what did you think of rishi's speech? he's the change candidate. don't you know? >> in many >> so a disaster in so many different ways. >> now, isn't that harsh? >> oh, now, isn't that harsh? >> oh, now, isn't that harsh? >> no, the first the first thing is is proposition the is labour is proposition as the opposition time for opposition is. it's time for a change. yes. and rishi then used our slogan i say it means our slogan and i say it means you haven't got original idea. i

tweeted he's done a clip for tweeted it. he's done a clip for labour's digital sure enough labour's digital and sure enough they clipped and used they they clipped him and used him labour ad rishi saying him on a labour ad rishi saying it's for change. the it's time for a change. the voters change. that's voters want change. that's labour's how labour's message. secondly how can candidate of the can you be the candidate of the future when cancel the future when you cancel the future, the future. future, you aim for the future. here's plans for future. oh here's my plans for future. oh by the way, i've cancelled hs2. so what you so you're. what are you promising though, keir starmer wanted back in wanted to cancel hs2 back in 2015. starmer all local, 2015. keir starmer all local, all constituency mps have all local constituency mps have the right to oppose developments. they don't want. they want it to be the they want it to be done the right way. but look, think he right way. but look, i think he make up and stick to make his mind up and stick to it. look, think they it. well, look, i think they look instability in the look at the instability in the tories. you get it? suella bravermans terrible rhetoric about immigration, but then you also get prime minister going. multiculturalism must have worked because i'm an asian , i'm worked because i'm an asian, i'm an indian heritage . an indian heritage. >> well, don't lots of people in the red wall agree with her rhetoric on immigration? i don't. don't they think that you're create more you're going to create more porous borders in the in the red wall? >> what they think is the prime minister he stopped the minister said he stopped the boats he's saying he's

boats and now he's saying he's boasting. reduced boats. >> no. e5555 boats. >> no. is keir starmer >> oh, no. but is keir starmer popular in the red wall? he's maniac. >> he is really popular in red wall. >> john, come on. >> john, come on. >> 20 points ahead. we're 20 points ahead in the poll. we're popular everywhere. that's why we scotland. popular everywhere. that's why we spring scotland. popular everywhere. that's why we spring chopperi. popular everywhere. that's why we spring chopper in. what did >> spring chopper in. what did you make of rishi sunak? he's got an event it tomorrow? got an event on is it tomorrow? why it. why is it. >> well, well, well. there are rumours, camilla. no than rumours, camilla. no more than that. be other that. there might be other things happening week with. things happening this week with. with the tories. it's all the wrong round. normally, this. wrong way round. normally, this. this has happened to pull the tory they tory party's one and then they get final sign off on all get the final sign off on all political news of the season and it them somehow messed it it annoys them somehow messed it up. second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. last, second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. last, which second to last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. last, which meansto last, it annoys them somehow messed it up. last, which means which, not last, which means which means big. come from means the big. will come from keir starmers speech on tuesday and on wednesday. and rayner on wednesday. i thought conference was thought the party conference was a ten for me. a seven out of ten for me. nothing dramatic. for nothing dramatic. my test for these parties how does it these parties is how does it make people feel richer, feel better themselves. all better off themselves. and all he going to bring he says is we're going to bring down inflation, which is a bit of a kind of economic thing. i don't best tax you don't think the best tax cut you can have is for me to have station. where's the where's the

brave brave move on brave move? make a brave move on tax. i don't mean inheritance tax, which affects tiny tax, which affects a tiny portion people and not many portion of people and not many people the people really. where's the big bold new moves for people i was just data. just looking for some data. >> i'm going try and remember >> i'm going to try and remember . from the mail on . it was from the mail on sunday. today, delta poll have done survey and asked those done a survey and it asked those asked rishi and asked about both rishi and indeed being changed indeed keir being changed candidates and the bottom line is that this polling showed that people don't think either of them are the change candidate. i mean, created biggest mean, who created the biggest stir at conference was it was nigel farage. >> yeah, one thing around but but saying nothing, by the way, free hit for him. news his free hit for him. gb news his own nigel farage, colleague. own nigel farage, our colleague. >> esteemed colleague not >> so our esteemed colleague not making any not saying anything , just. >> just existing. >> just existing. >> i but i'm. i mean, the >> i know, but i'm. i mean, the point. the point i'll put to john. you are very close to tony blair. are people lining blair. there are people lining the going, blair, blair, the streets going, blair, blair, blair in 97. that's simply isn't happening with starmer. he's not as charismatic. he hasn't got the wow factor. there are some comment about how he'd need to have some or he was saying, i'm

not going to have any razzmatazz and everyone said, well, that doesn't surprise anyone. maybe oh is doing something oh look, keir is doing something right to be 20 points ahead in the polls. >> he's doing something right. >> he's doing something right. >> not the to win >> well, he's not the to win rutherglen, so. >> it's not not simply >> well, no, it's not not simply not being the tories. it would be shrug. 20 points in the be a shrug. 20 points in the lead style leads a lead is blair style leads in a world where and i think this is important to understand all people's in has been people's hope in change has been beaten out of them. they've had a decade. this a terrible decade. and with this government basically decided government who basically decided in if we can't make in the end, if we can't make things we'll to things better, we'll try to persuade everybody nothing persuade everybody that nothing can and that's persuade everybody that nothing cireally and that's persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult and that's persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult situation .hat's persuade everybody that nothing cireally difficult situation to t's a really difficult situation to be opposition, because in be the opposition, because in government much government you've got so much power things persuade power to do things and persuade things. here offers the things. i think here offers the safety and the stability . now, safety and the stability. now, there's nothing flashy about stability , but it reduces costs. stability, but it reduces costs. it makes chris wants to come in on that. >> is that not a risk, though, john? >>i john? >> i mean, you around with tony blair back in 1970, 2001, his big issue he always talked about was why he wasn't bolder when he came in. starmer to me, he's

almost tiptoeing into office, not doing a lot. i to not doing a lot. i mean, to say things he would reverse things like he would reverse rwanda elsewhere , rwanda this morning, elsewhere, he build 1.5 million he wants to build 1.5 million homes. that's much than homes. that's not much more than the government is not the current government is not the current government is not the so nervous the risk. you're so nervous about this. the of about about this. the idea of the ming is carrying around the ming vase is carrying around number drops it, it's number 10. if he drops it, it's all he can't do anything. >> so the government aren't even meeting their own housing targets. housing targets. they abolished housing targets. they abolished housing targets up on targets. they've given up on housing mention of housing there. no mention of housing there. no mention of housing last week during conference one top conference yet. it's one the top issues about. issues that people talk about. so that labour are so the fact that labour are committing , you know. angie committing, you know. angie rayner committing rayner and now keir committing to massive targets, to massive housing targets, that's really, really important for country for us and for the country to hear we're that and hear that we're doing that and the we're in a world the thing is we're in a world where promises have been made by governments , by the five prime governments, by the five prime ministers that we've had and then they've been broken by the next prime minister or broken by the actual prime minister here is being really he will is being really clear. he will he a promise and then he will make a promise and then they'll deliver it. he'll they'll deliver it. so he'll back the builders, not john. >> just come on that >> let me just come in on that because there has been some criticism. the criticism. where's the opposition? didn't opposition? you know, he didn't

really the zero really react to the net zero climb don't really know climb down. we don't really know where he is. on with regard to some of his economic policies versus what jeremy hunt is going to announce autumn to announce in the autumn statement. been a climb statement. there's been a climb down of the private down on some of the private school seems to be school stuff, which seems to be the identifiable policy. the only identifiable policy. >> wasn't a there wasn't a >> there wasn't a there wasn't a climb down. >> there wasn't a there wasn't a clirthere's1. >> there wasn't a there wasn't a clirthere's a climb down on >> there's a climb down on charitable status. >> well, they've watered it down, is being down, john. the vat is being levied. the vat is being levied. that's what gets the money. that's what gets you the money. a&e is ten a&e charitable status is ten years courts. years in the courts. >> then we've got one >> but then we've got one policy. let's allow people policy. let's allow more people to do you think to change sex. do you think there loads of people in the there are loads of people in the red in this area saying, do red wall in this area saying, do you know what i want from the next labour minister? next labour prime minister? i want people to change sex. want more people to change sex. >> tell you i'll tell >> i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what. i'll tell you what people the wall, people people in the red wall, people in merseyside, people in london, people scotland, they people in scotland, what they believe. the believe. they don't believe the unhappy made believe. they don't believe the unhajunhappy made believe. they don't believe the unhajunhappy by made believe. they don't believe the unhajunhappy by a made believe. they don't believe the unhajunhappy by a government. more unhappy by a government. and something about and there's something about the way the government approaches the the approach the trans issue and the approach to issue. it wants to to every issue. it wants to divide us against divide us and turn us against each what country each other and what our country needs of working

needs is a decade of working together. all of us, to deal with the absolutely gigantic problems it's problems we face, whether it's climate transition or whether it's productivity going it's getting productivity going or it is improving our or whether it is improving our schools, our health schools, improving our health and might that trans >> some might argue that trans activists have been quite divisive that issue. divisive on that issue. but let's move on to scotland, because, john, you are because, john, i know you are also former of staff to also former chief of staff to jim murphy when he was scottish labour the snp finished? >> no, the snp aren't finished because there's going to be support for independence in scotland for a very long time. in my view it'd be the wrong thing for scotland to do and i don't believe a second referendum happen. if it referendum will happen. if it did, the snp would lose again. would scotland stay in the did, the snp would lose again. woubuticotland stay in the did, the snp would lose again. wou but the and stay in the did, the snp would lose again. wou but the snp stay in the did, the snp would lose again. wou but the snp have stay in the did, the snp would lose again. wou but the snp have taken n the uk, but the snp have taken a beating. yes. and the interesting thing about that, they concede that they've they won't concede that they've taken beating. labour's taken a beating. labour's majority was than the snp majority was larger than the snp vote . that's right. back to the vote. that's right. back to the that's pre pre referendum politics. labour is dominant. you have to accept when the voters send you a message, you've got to go, we got it. that's one of the reasons that keir starmer has taken labour on

a journey. look, the a journey. he said, look, the voters were to reject voters were right to reject jeremy corbyn. the voters in scotland were right reject scotland were right to reject the the snp don't the snp. if the snp don't listen, again and listen, they'll lose again and again again. so the labour again and again. so the labour can come in scotland and can come back in scotland and win labour back win seats. labour can come back in parliament and in the scottish parliament and maybe administration, maybe form an administration, but the snp will still there. but the snp will still be there. >> is scotland going to >> topper is scotland going to be difference for starmer be the difference for starmer between majority government? >> it means you must win less votes north in red votes in the north in the red wall to win. i mean 20 seats, 30 seats. what's your forecast? john? >>i john? >> i think 20 seats in scotland would a brilliant result would be a brilliant result because swing we got at 20% because the swing we got at 20% is twice the swing that there's beenin is twice the swing that there's been in the opinion polls in scotland. if we got the 10, the 11% swing that's in the opinion polls, about 20in polls, we'd pick up about 20in scotland. that changes that scotland. and that changes that changes nature politics. changes the nature of politics. >> people who >> rikki neave people who support to vote for support the union to vote for a tory or labour candidate and not for not putting red and so for not putting red and blue. so what i is happening in what i think is happening in scotland in the rest of the scotland and in the rest of the country they're looking at country is they're looking at two governments, a tory government snp government two governments, a tory gowthey're. snp government two governments, a tory gowthey're going,np government two governments, a tory gowthey're going, what'sernment two governments, a tory gowthey're going, what's the nent and they're going, what's the best way to get these people

out? so in england it's lib dem or >> so in england it's lib dem or labour and in scotland it is who is. mainly labour. there'll is. it's mainly labour. there'll be where labour be some seats where labour voters vote voters in the north—east vote for the tories and in the borders. so unionist voters are going vote for the best going to vote for the best candidate snp to candidate to beat the snp to send them a message because you've got a government, a tory government uk for 13 government in power in uk for 13 years, snp power for 16 years, snp in power for 16 years. the end, political years. in the end, political gravity asserts itself. >> i asked transport >> i asked the transport secretary mark harper, earlier whether the tories had given up on . i mean, that's what on scotland. i mean, that's what it that chap who it looks like. that chap who went the by—election in went for the by—election in rutherglen got 1000 odd votes. i mean deposit our scottish tories are going to be an oxymoron come 2024. >> not an oxymoron. that's a big word for the sunday morning. >> jesus. yes. >> jesus. yes. >> no , i think it's the right >> no, i think it's the right word, though. >> well, i'm just you know, sometimes they say young tories an but we wouldn't an oxymoron, but we wouldn't necessarily agree with that. >> scottish >> but scottish tories rutherglen tory till 64. >> yes. when i was when i worked out there with for john different newspapers at the turn of century. john exactly.

of the century. john exactly. the then was, was the the big issue then was, was the poll tax. that rae that was poll tax. that was. rae that was the reason why the tories haemorrhaged support and that's now raised, is now not, not really raised, is it? more the boris it? it's more i mean the boris johnson down like a cup of johnson went down like a cup of cold sick up there. i think sunak popular. maybe sunak is more popular. maybe maybe sunak, maybe the follower of sunak, whoever they lose, whoever that is, if they lose, could be better. the great, the great john curtice said about said about this. >> tories on 15% in >> the tories are on 15% in scotland, but that's because they're unpopular across the scotland, but that's because they're of1popular across the scotland, but that's because they're of theyular across the scotland, but that's because they're of the country. )ss the scotland, but that's because they'reof the country. if; the scotland, but that's because they'reof the country. if you're whole of the country. if you're on the uk, you're going to on 25 in the uk, you're going to have to be on 15in scotland and so be more so the sunak may be more palatable johnson . the palatable than johnson. the thing in the middle between thing is in the middle between johnson was truss and johnson and sunak was truss and truss has destroyed the trust with voters everywhere. and until you can get that until you can get over that moment that truss is moment and i think that truss is the new so it's all about competence . competence. >> ac it's competence. >> ac it's competence. >> and that's what that's why starmer untested untested starmer is untested, untested on competency. , but the competency. but but, but the tories clearly it's funny, tories are clearly it's funny, the government are the and the government are the risk and the government are the risk and the opposition are safety. the opposition are the safety. and that's where politics. >> although let's just talk about who is considered about somebody who is considered about somebody who is considered a bit risky in the labour party.

angela goddess , angela rayner oh, the goddess, is john why do you say that? >> john why do you say that? >> john why do you say that? >> because she's, which got her, sir. >> she's got an appeal, right, that across politics. that reaches across politics. yeah. she pass it. i wrote a piece for the another reformer papers philip crush going on here explaining and uranos appeal. angie rayner is definitely a politician. you want to go down the pub with? yeah. wouldn't you want. >> unlike keir starmer, you might keir, i've seen keir. >> i had a taxi driver from gb news once and he said i met that keir starmer. i met him in a pub, he knows his football. he's good company. true. like he's, he's so. but angie just like, he's so. but angie is just like, you look at her you know, you look at her and, you know, you look at her and, you know, you look at her and, you know, she's fun and there's so politicians but so few politicians i know, but she's to careful because she's got to be careful because they're this whole safety. they're doing this whole safety. >> thing. we don't want >> first thing. we don't want her going off at fringes and calling scumbags might calling tory scumbags you might for new for news channels. >> well, we do want that for news. yeah. >> well, we do want that for neerah.1h. >> well, we do want that for neerah. you need some colour >> yeah. you need some colour and character. a mo and character. you need a mo mowlam. you need. you know you need peter man. need you need a peter man. somebody who's than somebody who's larger than life. and larger life. and she's larger than life. >> your prescott, the new

prescott. >> yeah. no, no, she is. and obviously, literally, literally deputy prescott. deputy leader like prescott. >> if she's >> everybody needs if she's going speaking later, going to be speaking later, i think, isn't 1120 today. think, isn't she 1120 today. i think, isn't she 1120 today. i think that's what i'm hearing in my and ear is never wrong. >> so, angie, good. >> so, angie, good. >> and final word, rachel reeves. i mean, to be fair, she's been a bit of a silent assassin, bringing up the rear, adding competence the adding some competence to the operation. loves her. right? >> the city loves her. right? >> the city loves her. right? >> a lot her. this >> there's a lot loves her. this is curious. >> a last week, >> there's a line last week, though. there's a line last week from sunak the from rishi sunak to the bloomberg lunch. he said, beware for will tolerate for labour. they will tolerate you. you. and that's you. but we love you. and that's what tories, that's the what the tories, that's the tories said. and so labour tolerate. business is not a love thing. i did, i did. i did a dinner >> i did, i did. i did a dinner in the city a week ago at and it was, it was a room which had a trillion pounds under investment and they were all clear. labour is government and they is the next government and they and trust and they trust, they trust rachel for her stable management of economy. and of the future economy. okay. and that's thing that don't that's the thing that they don't see risk. see a risk. >> final word base is rammed. >> final word base is rammed. >> mean gone are the cardigans >> i mean gone are the cardigans , corbyn evans wearing , the corbyn era. evans wearing sharp gb news stuff. sharp suits like gb news stuff.

>> tickets sold >> we've got more tickets sold to conference than any time in labour it's the biggest attendance. >> well, you heard it here first, john mcternan, christopher hope. are the christopher hope. gone are the cardigans corbyn era. cardigans of the corbyn era. i think we'll that note think we'll end on that note now. says here, i'll be back now. it says here, i'll be back at next at 930. actually at next week at 930. actually i'm going on holiday marbs i'm going on holiday to marbs with some my mummy mates, so with some of my mummy mates, so i'll that. but i'll be back after that. but somebody be covering for somebody will be covering for me.

>> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. a two hour sprint through arts, culture, politics and world affairs. we begin today with the shocking events unfolding in and around israel . israelis in the around israel. israelis in the south of the country woke up to find that towns have been infiltrated by hamas terrorists who unleashed a torrent of killings and kidnappings. meanwhile thousands of rockets were israel . how were fired across israel. how were fired across israel. how were the israeli defence forces caught off guard? and what is the prospect now for that historic diplomatic deal between israel and saudi arabia ? by israel and saudi arabia? by coincidence, a new film about golda meir, once israeli prime minister , recalls how israel was minister, recalls how israel was caught unawares exactly 50 years ago by the joint egyptian and syrian invasion on yom kippur in 1973, the movie's screenwriter, nicholas martin, will join me in the studio. so eral weeks ago we reported on another corner of the middle east where armenians