>> just . good >> just. good morning. >> just. good morning. >> i'm christopher hope and welcome to the camilla tominey show. i'm planting while camilla is away. it's been a huge and devastating week in the middle east and we'll be reflecting that in the show today. i'll be joined by both the foreign secretary, james cleverly and the foreign secretary, the shadow foreign secretary, labour's david lammy, to discuss what they think the uk's response should to be the war. now as israel's army prepares for a ground invasion of gaza, i'll be speaking to a representative of the israeli defence force left tenant colonel peter lerner , israel's colonel peter lerner, israel's ambassador to the uk , tzipi ambassador to the uk, tzipi hotovely, will also be here. joining me in the gb news studio . and after the metropolitan police recorded a big increase in anti—semitic hate crimes this week following the violence in the middle east, others speaking to the britain's british

government's adviser on anti—semitism, lord mann .john anti—semitism, lord mann. john mann, a former labour mp and now a crossbench peer . now let's a crossbench peer. now let's have a look at what's been happening in today's papers. and joining me now is john sergeant, the former bbc and itn political correspondent john, morning. good morning. it's a difficult day for the papers because the news is so set me. >> some are summarised as what's in all the papers about about this incredibly important story. you can't you can't underestimate the importance of it, nor can you really give any real flavour to the coverage. except i'll go through it and do my best. the times is well poised for gaza invasion evacuation chaos sunday telegraph. israel is set to hit hamas from land , sea and air and hamas from land, sea and air and also on the front page of the telegraph, an important story. the bbc is embroiled in a row over allegations that bbc arabic reporters appear to justify killing of civilians lines by hamas terrorists . so we'll come

hamas terrorists. so we'll come back to that. yeah but you've also got the mail on sunday concentrating on the big pro—palestine march in london and they're heading they're heading, which is you ghouls refers to pictures on the backs of two women protesters . and of two women protesters. and these are pictures of paraglider riders. yeah. and they say they brazenly the protesters brazenly revel in the massacre of dozens of young israelis by paragliding hamas terrorists. okay. we'll also adds, why didn't the police stop them? just quickly on this sunday express talks about the labour leader, jeremy corbyn, being on that march. they also talk about rishi sunaks position . pm we stand by israel always , . pm we stand by israel always, but there's plenty of talk in the papers about the dangers ahead and the mirror, particularly talks about the way that civilians in gaza are escaping , how difficult it is escaping, how difficult it is for them. they call it the escape to hell so we can cover some of those. >> well, let's break that down. a great overview there, john. i

mean, the sunday times, let's start with israel poised for gaza invasion. that's what is happening today in the next few days. >> that's it. and there's some doubt about when. obviously, nobody knows that and nobody knows whether or not they're going to how many people actually could leave gaza. and the position of egypt and other countries. so it's a complex situation simply because we don't know the timing, but also so there is plenty of warning by people saying, including the us general petraeus, who's writing in the is quoted in the sunday times, says that this could be a very difficult situation because if the israelis don't have an exit plan from gaza, so they go in quite right, fine . so what in quite right, fine. so what about the exit plan and this is the war of no choice, as he puts it. so for lots of people saying, but is this a trap for israel in the long term? >> well, one detail in the sunday times struck me. it says here how anthony blink. blinken, the us's chief diplomat. he's been talks with his

been using talks with his chinese counterpart and chinese counterpart to try and urge beijing to use influence over iran to prevent a conflict. i mean, shows how so much has i mean, it shows how so much has changed in just a week. the fact you've china is now is you've got the china is now is almost brokering some kind of talks iran. talks with iran. >> and so the idea >> that's right. and so the idea that this simple matter that this is a simple matter that this is a simple matter that we can just consider the awfulness it, everybody awfulness of it, which everybody feels about everybody and the civilians, particularly horrendous stories. so let's assume that we all accept that , assume that we all accept that, but that then go on from there. okay what do you do and what do you do in gaza? and that's extremely complicated. and people are very , very worried people are very, very worried about the effect of that . about the effect of that. >> and just moving on now and to the humanitarian consequences in gaza, which the mirror gaza, which the sunday mirror talk escaped the talk about there escaped the hell. i mean, you've got this warning this morning from warning from this morning from the on twitter, the israeli the on twitter, from the israeli defence force, saying that asking people to move between 10 am. and 1 pm, here's a window to move south. but it is getting very, very tense there. >> right. so the problem, >> that's right. so the problem, i mean, what makes it so difficult on the israeli side is

that they don't quickly , that if they don't act quickly, then there's a whole question of you're raising the whole thing andits you're raising the whole thing and it's their sort of predominant it gives the impression it's a premeditated war on gaza and to then say, look , we're reacting because of look, we're reacting because of the terrorist action makes it harder as each day goes past. so they want to hurry. but can they hurry? and if they do, hurry , hurry? and if they do, hurry, what will the effect be if they get bogged down? so that's why the of the trap so is so relevant. >> yeah, there's been talk already, i think from the former head of mi6, alex younger, saying, you know, this what saying, you know, this is what hamas israel to do to try hamas wants israel to do to try and risk getting down in and risk getting bogged down in what would be a really, really difficult war. that's right. and quite next. well, quite what happens next. well, if to the here, this if you turn to the uk here, this this mail on sunday focusing this the mail on sunday focusing on in london on the marching in london yesterday ghouls on page one yesterday you ghouls on page one there say this there as you say there this pictures of the hamas terrorists on their paragliders on back on their paragliders on the back of of marchers there. of two of the marchers there. how feel seeing that in how did you feel seeing that in the streets of london? i mean, it was obviously their marching

in the pro—palestine march, not a hamas march . and that's a pro hamas march. and that's the difference make i >> -- >> yes. i mean, this is the whole difficulty about treating the whole issue as sort of on the whole issue as sort of on the one hand, on the one hand, because you think, well, is there going to be a pro—israeli demonstration and what form would that and when would would that take and when would it take? course, it isn't it take? so of course, it isn't that you've got deal with the that you've got to deal with the fact lots of people in fact that lots of people in london who are palestinian want to show their palestinian and lots of jews in london want to show they're jewish. but the worry on the jewish side is that if the pro—israeli demonstrations , as you're demonstrations, as you're whipping up anti—semitic , so whipping up anti—semitic, so you've got a completely different factor in play here, and that for lots of people, lots of jewish friends of mine, they're this they're so upset by all these elements and they're not similar . they're not there's not similar. they're not there's not similar. they're not there's not a question of simply saying, oh, palestinians, the oh, the palestinians, the israelis, let's deal with one then, then talk about the other . then, then talk about the other. it's not like that. >> are reports on the >> and there are reports on the front sunday times front page of the sunday times about student hiding a star

about the student hiding a star of yeah, mean, that's a of david. yeah, i mean, that's a dreadful in this 21st dreadful thing in this 21st century. >> and see, obviously there >> and you see, obviously there are people me, whole are people like me, my whole sort of onwards is sort of childhood onwards is affected of the affected by talk of the holocaust because you have experience of moving to gaza when young. and when you're very young. and i do. this extraordinary i do. i have this extraordinary i mean, happens that way. mean, it just happens that way. my was a christian my father was a christian missionary. he the when missionary. he at the time when the independence was the war of independence was taking in israel. so as taking place in israel. so as a very young child, my brother and sister, we were evacuated. where to gaza . and we went from gaza to gaza. and we went from gaza to gaza. and we went from gaza to egypt. and we didn't know whether going to the whether we were going to the northern the northern hemisphere or the southern we came southern hemisphere. we came by boat britain . boat to britain. >> exactly. and you've experience reporting out there, i think you said your time i think you said from your time as out there. as reporter out there. >> reporter in >> i've been a reporter in northern israel and the israel in lebanon for first in invaded lebanon for the first time. i was there with john major in gaza , would you believe major in gaza, would you believe it, arafat in it, with yasser arafat in a joint news conference? yes. and yasser arafat came out and put his arm around me. yeah. yeah. and i was working with a young producer, a jewish producer. this was with and so i

this was with itv. and so i think the sort of idea of, you know, i know a little bit about the tensions and difficulties of reporting. >> how do you feel now about it, though, having you experienced the previous conflicts? how do you how do you feel now seeing i mean, where do you rate i suppose i mean, this is this is a series has been for 50 years nearly it's series because there is no there's no obvious precedent this now we precedent now we do this now we do now the past, there's do that now in the past, there's always feeling that, oh, well, always a feeling that, oh, well, the israelis have these the israelis have got these they've they've got they've got tanks, they've got these weapons. these sorts of weapons. >> but this is particularly difficult. and once get difficult. and once you get hostages involved once hostages involved and once you've with in you've dealt with hostages in the as in israel, everyone the past, as in israel, everyone has a, you know, a memory of, you know, isn't it awful of the hostage? what's going to happen if you allow them to be killed? now, the other thing, of course, if terrorist, if if it's a terrorist, if it's a hostage taking, if action involving the police, they always say keep calm, keep in touch . and, yeah, the people are touch. and, yeah, the people are holding them. let time develop and keep on sending them food and keep on sending them food and do all sorts of things. and those hostages situation are

amazingly of small in amazingly sort of small in number. but this is an entirely different scale. >> these are some reports, of course, yesterday some course, yesterday of some hostages already in. they hostages dying already in. they claim claim, i think, claim hamas claim, i think, under shelling. very difficult to imagine. >> they won't die. lots of them will be killed, if not all of them may be killed. >> you mentioned your time >> yes. you mentioned your time there as a bbc reporter . >> yes. you mentioned your time there as a bbc reporter. i'm fascinated this this fascinated about this this debate past week about debate in the past week about how to describe hamas. now, john simpson , your former colleague, simpson, your former colleague, the affairs wrote the world affairs editor, wrote an he, on the an article, didn't he, on the bbc , saying, we've never bbc website, saying, we've never called groups terrorists , called any groups terrorists, even were not called even the ira were not called terrorists the terrorists by the bbc. >> right. i mean, we were >> that's right. i mean, we were stuck i reported on stuck with i reported on northern ireland over a period of seven years during the of about seven years during the in and the troubles and in the 70s. and the troubles and we knew the rules. we knew perfectly we weren't going perfectly well we weren't going to down on side or the to come down on one side or the other. that we had to report other. and that we had to report all things. so for me, all these things. so for me, i suppose it's so part of my natural instinct. after 30 years as a correspondent for bbc. as a correspondent for the bbc. yeah imagine that in a yeah not to imagine that in a situation like this. oh, well,

who's right and who's wrong? no, you report it as a dreadful story. but the bbc is not a government. no, bbc not even government. no, bbc is not even like newspaper with like a newspaper with editorials. if the editorials. and what if the headune editorials. and what if the headline was decides , after headline was bbc decides, after all, to support israel ? all, to support israel? >> you wouldn't say that, would it? >> wouldn't say support you. imagine that that was the sort of the mood of the headline. you think, gosh, what's happening there? so if the if people can understand bbc is understand what the bbc is trying , maybe they'll trying to do, maybe they'll be more sympathetic . it's very more sympathetic. it's a very difficult it's an extremely difficult it's an extremely difficult operation for the bbc involving considerable danger and people making these decisions at terrific speed. >> but why can't you say they are terrorists? because what happened last week to any ordinary person was terrorism. >> sure. that's and if you're asking my personal opinion , i asking my personal opinion, i left the bbc some time ago . say, left the bbc some time ago. say, what do you think about this terrorism? yeah, that's quite simple. not call them terrorism? >> i'm not i'm speaking as an individual here. or are you speaking as a government? you're not an not talking about an international organisation . international news organisation. that it's at the start of an

that is it's at the start of an extremely complicated international story. yes. and the idea that you and the word terrorism now does signify you're against people. now of course, the bbc is getting lots of quotes to that effect. you see, it's not stopping people calling them terrorists, but the bbc does not have an editorial line. that's it. simon heffer on page 20 in the sunday telegraph, talks about moral. >> the moral cowardice. yeah. i mean, is that fair? >> is that your card? it's weasel words. i'll tell you, it's more difficult being a bbc reporter in at times like this than people imagine. >> the reports, of course, also in the same newspaper about bbc arabic reporters apparently here, it says here celebrating the attack that left 1300 dead in israel. >> well, i mean , the point is >> well, i mean, the point is the social media not on not on on the ainnaves. the problem with all these things is everyone's emotions are involved . if you are a dedicated , really . if you are a dedicated, really sort of wound up on one side or

the other, quite understand ably, don't get me wrong, if my mother and father and sister and cousin had been killed , i would cousin had been killed, i would be kind of involved. it's a very good quote from a woman saying, i'm sorry at a time like this, i can only think of my own people. and i think that pretty well sums it up. if i was in that position, of course, all i could think own relatives, my think of my own relatives, my own people. but i'm not talking about that. i'm talking about the i'm talking about the bbc. i'm talking about a famous international news organisation that half a billion people and hear for and people watch and hear for and listen to in all sorts of ways around the world. that is a very different operation. well john, sergeant, i'm afraid we've spoken just on one area today, but we'll ask to do is so but we'll ask you to do is so serious in gaza and israel, we have to leave it there. >> but thank you for joining have to leave it there. >> but thank you forjoining us >> but thank you for joining us today on the show. now let's speak on the ground speak to our man on the ground in gb news reporter in israel, gb news reporter charlie peters . charlie is in charlie peters. charlie is in tel aviv. charlie what's the latest we're hearing? you're heanng latest we're hearing? you're hearing now ? hearing now? >> well, as we speak to you now from tel aviv, fighter jets are

buzzing overhead , likely buzzing overhead, likely refuelling and rearming before they head further south towards gaza to attack. >> what the idf describe as hamas military capabilities. these are the capabilities that they need to remove if they are to successfully shape the ground for that likely ground invasion from the idf. they're first in the gaza strip since 2014, and as they prepare for that movement, there is further shaping, shaping going on by the military insofar as they are asking or ordering civilians to flee north gaza. 1.1 million were told via un liaison officers two mornings ago that they had to get out of the region as it becomes a battle zone for the idf . and it's not zone for the idf. and it's not clear how many have successful made that trip because since then the idf has extended humanitarian safe corridors for several hours. this current one expires in one hour as they seek to bring more people south of

the wadi gaza, a river halfway down the territory in order to prepare to attack in stages in the north. they will need to push heavy armour into that location, followed up by infantry in order to destroy hamas personnel and indeed defence systems on the ground . defence systems on the ground. in localised raids conducted two nights ago, the idf destroyed anti—tank munitions and units gathering on the border of the gaza strip with israeli territory to start softening up those targets. but it needs the civilians to remove themselves from that location. now because it needs to use more severe munitions to prepare for the ground invasion. if you think of gaza as a place of two layers on the top, that's where the civilians live. all those people in the most densely populated parts of the world living in those high rise residential areas as but there is another layer. the subterranean layer where the hamas terrorists maintain their capabilities underground with hundreds of kilometres of tunnels for them to shelter and keep rockets and

ammunition . if the idf is to ammunition. if the idf is to able is to be able to enter the region and move their tanks in, they need to limit the efficacy of those tunnelling operations. they need to reduce the impact and opportunity that the hamas have in the south. but at the same time in the north, there is an escalating situation there as well. while hamas gather, that gathers that convoy on the south in the north, the idf are sending hundreds of thousands of reservists to reaffirm and reassure the population in the north of any incoming threats from lebanese hezbollah . as we from lebanese hezbollah. as we have seen in the last hour, an extension of the military evacuation zone in that northern region because hezbollah is the most dangerous non—state actor in the world, its military budget runs into the hundreds of millions . it budget runs into the hundreds of millions. it has budget runs into the hundreds of millions . it has capabilities millions. it has capabilities that make hamas look like a relatively minor player in the region. and so the idf has warned lebanon that it will hold it responsible for any efforts made by hezbollah in the north

of israel. and we have seen skirmishing going on since the start of this war. and this morning, people were confirmed dead and three wounded in northern israel after rocket attacks from hezbollah. and this comes last night after the head of the hamas political —-— met with iran's leadership met with iran's foreign minister as fears grow that iranian proxies will seek to destabilise the region further and capitalise on a breaking and creaking israel as it tries to fight a war on several fronts . several fronts. >> charlie peters there . >> charlie peters there. charlie, thank you. now just a minute. i'll be talking to the foreign secretary, james cleverly . but james, foreign secretary, james cleverly . butjames, john, cleverly. but james, john, sergeant is still with me. john, what's your your view on this? i mean, of course, if israel , mean, of course, if israel, israel do do invade, how long can the uk keep supporting israel ? israel? >> well, that's the problem, because in a way , and this is because in a way, and this is a problem forjames because in a way, and this is a problem for james cleverly are you handing over british foreign policy to the israelis who will

support you whatever happens? and of course, you're not doing that that would be that because that would be impossible a british impossible for a british government to do that. so that's the i would ask him. the question i would ask him. what do you do when the when things get really rough? they do? >> john? sergeant, thank you. do? >> jjames ergeant, thank you. do? >> jjames cleverly thank you. do? >> jjames cleverly joinsk you. do? >> jjames cleverly joins me u. do? >> jjames cleverly joins me now. and james cleverly joins me now. james, you have heard the james, you may have heard the question from john. question now from john. sergeant, what what do you do, james cleverly it gets very james cleverly when it gets very difficult how difficult out there, israel, how will you how will you cope with that ? that? >> well, sadly, the situation is already very difficult. we have seen an unprecedented terrorist attack against israel. we have seen israel. i think , shaken to seen israel. i think, shaken to its core by by a death of people , unprecedented even in the areas of conflict since the formation of the modern state of israel. so of course, we do support israel's desire for self—defence. we do support their actions to re—establish peace in southern israel and to remove the threat from hamas

terrorists . s in all the terrorists. s in all the conversations that we have had with israel, of course we do raise our commitment to international law and our desire to minimise civilian casualties as they are very conscious of that and they have given commitments that they will do whatever they to can minimise civilian casualties, although of course because of the geographical and political situation in gaza, with palestinians being put in intentional in harm's way by hamas , that is incredibly hamas, that is incredibly difficult . difficult. >> james covey, do you agree with the former m16 chief, sir with the former mi6 chief, sir alex younger, warning that an invasion will play into the hands of hamas ? well there is, hands of hamas? well there is, of course, a real risk that hamas is successful in turning this into a wider regional kind of arab , israeli or muslim of arab, israeli or muslim versus the rest of the world conflict that israel are very conscious of that and are are

listening very carefully. >> when we discuss what we can do to minimise the risk of that happening. i've been speaking with the leadership of countries in the region discussing how we can minimise the risk of that happening, but israel are conscious of that. we are conscious of that. we are conscious of that and the international community is working to minimise the risk of that happening. is you're worried, though, james cleverly, that this could be an open ended conflict with no, no obvious exit because once israel go in, it's very hard to see how the how the conflict will end . well how the conflict will end. well of course this terrible situation has run on for many years already . israel left gaza years already. israel left gaza in 2005. gaza has been run by hamas since 2006, and israel have come under consistent attack from hamas emanating from gaza since that time. so, of course we are working to ensure

that israel have a plan, have an exit strategy and we will, of course, continue to do whatever we can to minimise the risk that this becomes as an enduring , this becomes as an enduring, extended, painful regional conflict . conflict. >> is there a risk, though, of war crimes by israeli troops . war crimes by israeli troops. >> sorry i missed that. i missed that question. >> sorry. james. cleverly is there a risk, though, that of war crimes that the humanitarian rights of those in gaza could be violated by israeli troops? and what would the uk say to that? >> so i have raised the importance of international law and the and the and the minimisation of civilian casualties directly with the israeli government. president herzog, the president of israel, has reaffirmed israel's commitment to international law and their desire to minimise civil casualties. as i said, one of the challenges is that hamas

habitually puts palestinians in harm's way as a part of their wider efforts. they are a terrorist organisation and they use terrorist tactics , and those use terrorist tactics, and those tactics are not exclusively directed towards israelis. they are also . so there are millions are also. so there are millions of palestinians living in gaza under the yoke of a terrorist organisation and hamas actions are putting those palestinian lives at risk . lives at risk. >> on that point, james cleverly , your tory colleague, christopher blunt, warned that the uk will be complicit in war crimes if we support israel as israel's attempt to defend itself . what would you say to itself. what would you say to crispin blunt and people on your own backbenches well, i have spoken to crispin about this issue. >> he is a long standing opponent of israel's actions. i fundamentally disagree . i fundamentally disagree. i fundamentally disagree. i fundamentally disagree. i fundamentally disagree with his

assessment of this situation in terms of the uk and how many britons might be out there in israel and gaza. >> do you how many brits are actually being held hostage by hamas? are there any at all? >> so we don't know, precise numbers. the nature of israel as a state, particularly as a haven for jewish communities around the world, means there are very large number of dual nationals with british dual nationals, but who regard themselves as israeli regard israel as their permanent home and even be serving the israeli defence forces. so the precise numbers excuse me , precise numbers excuse me, excuse me. so the precise numbers of british people, british nationals that we need to support is unclear. we know that in gaza there are numbers in the low hundreds of people who have registered with the british government seeking our support . and we will, of course,

support. and we will, of course, support. and we will, of course, support them in whatever way we can and we will continue to support british nationals who are in israel, who are seeking to return back to the uk. >> you've got flights laid on, haven't you, for those lows in israel. how are you dealing with with brits in gaza? are you helping them to find a way out? maybe the south? maybe to the south? >> so we have been liaising very, very closely with the israeli government, with the egyptian government, and we know that there have been talks to try and reopen the rafah crossing. now, that is the border crossing between southern gaza and egypt at the moment. thatis gaza and egypt at the moment. that is the only credible exit route from people from gaza. we will continue to work to try and get that crossing reopened , get that crossing reopened, although at the moment it is not open and that is, of course, making humanity carian and consular support into gaza incredibly difficult . incredibly difficult. >> the uk has deployed military assets to eastern mediterranean. james cleverly why is that? will

the raf be doing any airlifts? for example , or why are we why for example, or why are we why are we out there with our military hardware ? well we are military hardware? well we are keeping our options open with regard to how we support british nationals in the in the region. >> so this is a this is to give us as many options in terms of consular support as possible . consular support as possible. we're also trying to deter this becoming a wider regional conflict . so we are saying for conflict. so we are saying for any organisations, militia groups or others in the region that are seeking to turn this into a regional conflict. so we are going to do everything we can both diplomatically to prevent this spilling out into becoming a regional conflict . becoming a regional conflict. >> so is there a possibility then that the british army or then that the british army or the navy may get involved in some kind of some kind of confrontation out there ? confrontation out there? >> so our posture there is predominantly to support british nationals and any work that we

that we need to do for consular support, we are not envisaging engaging in military action and justjust engaging in military action and just just to ask you about the marching in in london yesterday, where you're standing, tens of thousands of demonstrators in london. >> were you concerned by that? and of course, they're marching in support of the palestinian people. but there were some other other people there with with some pictures of with badges, some pictures of paragliders on their backs, that kind of thing that makes you worried. i mean, hamas is a proscribed terrorist group in this country . this country. >> so one of the points that i would make is that we have a long standing tradition in of protest and i completely respect people's right to protest. i would also , however, make the would also, however, make the point that that supporting the cause of the palestinian people and supporting hamas and their terrorist atrocities are not at the same thing. and i think that some people have rather naively

conflated the two. hamas has been responsible for significant loss of palestinian life as well as israeli life. hamas are no friend to the palestinian people. >> james cleverly , they have >> james cleverly, they have blocked the oslo process . blocked the oslo process. >> they have collapsed. >> they have collapsed. >> for me. thank you. >> for me. thank you. >> talk of a two state solution. they are no friend of the palestinian. >> james. there's lots more to come. in just a moment, we'll be here for my interview from early today the foreign today with the shadow foreign secretary we'll, of secretary david lammy. we'll, of course, keep you

hello. lots more to come this houn hello. lots more to come this hour. in just one minute, you'll be able to hear from my interview with shadow foreign secretary david lammy . i'll also secretary david lammy. i'll also be joined by israel's ambassador to the uk , tzipi hotovely . but to the uk, tzipi hotovely. but first, let's get the news with elizabeth callaghan . elizabeth callaghan. >> hello. it's just after 10:00. i'm elizabeth callaghan in the newsroom. thousands thousands of palestinians continue to flee south as the israeli prime minister tells his troops the next stage is coming. it's military is attacking hamas by sea and air in gaza and preparing for a ground offensive . there are reports from the israeli defence force saying hamas is stopping civilians from leaving . it comes as the hamas leaving. it comes as the hamas leader met with iran's foreign

minister in qatar, where they agreed to continue cooperation . agreed to continue cooperation. the us president joe biden has reiterated his unwavering support to israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu . minister benjamin netanyahu. speaking last night, the us president said hate had caused the conflict . the conflict. >> a week ago we saw a hate manifested another way in the worst massacre of jewish people since the holocaust. more than 1300 innocent lives lost in israel , 1300 innocent lives lost in israel, including at 1300 innocent lives lost in israel , including at least 27 israel, including at least 27 americans children and grandparents alike, kidnapped and held hostage by hamas . the and held hostage by hamas. the humanitarian crisis in gaza, innocent palestinian families and the vast majority have nothing to do with hamas . nothing to do with hamas. they're being . they're being. >> the foreign office is telling british nationals in gaza to be ready in case the rafah border crossing is opened. it's currently the only route out of the territory, a third government charter flight carrying britons from the country has departed . prime

country has departed. prime minister rishi sunak has vowed to always stand with israel onto some entertainment news now. and madonna has kicked off her delayed celebration tour in london following a serious health scare . the 65 year old health scare. the 65 year old had to postpone the start date from july after she was admitted to intensive care with a near fatal bacterial infection. she told the audience she didn't think she was going to make it and credited her children with helping her to recover. the singer also urged her fans to unite as she expressed her sadness over the israel—hamas sadness over the israel— hamas conflict sadness over the israel—hamas conflict . it breaks my heart to conflict. it breaks my heart to see children suffering, teenagers suffering, elderly people suffering . people suffering. >> all of it is heart breaking. you feel helpless , right? what you feel helpless, right? what can we do? there's a lot we can do . first and foremost, what we do. first and foremost, what we can say . i can

do. first and foremost, what we can say. i can make a do. first and foremost, what we can say . i can make a difference can say. i can make a difference because i individually can bring light to the world with my actions, with my words, each and every day . well that's all my every day. well that's all my news for now. >> this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on digital radio and on your smart speaker by saying, play gb news. now it's back to you, chris. >> welcome back to the cumulative omni show with me, christopher hope . now we've got christopher hope. now we've got lots more to come on this program. in a minute you'll be able to hear my interview with the shadow foreign secretary, david i'll be talking to david lammy. i'll be talking to a spokesman israeli a spokesman from the israeli army prepare for army as they prepare for a ground invasion of gaza and often that police this week warned of a massive rise in anti—semitic hate crimes in london. and i'll be speaking to the uk government's adviser on

anti—semitism , lord mann, john anti—semitism, lord mann, john mann i'll also be joined by the israelis ambassador to the uk , israelis ambassador to the uk, tzipi hotovely , and i'll be tzipi hotovely, and i'll be speaking to richard kemp , the speaking to richard kemp, the retired british army officer who's been spending time with israeli troops this week on the border with gaza . now, earlier border with gaza. now, earlier i spoke to the shadow foreign secretary, david labour mp david lammy . i started by asking him lammy. i started by asking him whether labour supports the invasion of gaza . look look, we invasion of gaza. look look, we said right from the beginning that we support israel's right to defend itself . to defend itself. >> if they have had the most awful, horrendous mass terrorist attack . there are still 130 attack. there are still 130 hostages currently in gaza. rape murder, children , women. they murder, children, women. they have a right to go into gaza to get those hostages to degrade the military rockets and equipment that's been used against them. and, of course , to against them. and, of course, to take out hamas , a proscribed

take out hamas, a proscribed terrorist. all ionisation . terrorist. all ionisation. >> but do you worry, though, that israel might risk breaking international law by doing this? because if the civilian casualties pile up, then what it i >> keir starmer has said all along that any operation must not be according to international moral law and so it's hugely important that civilian casualties are minimised , that humanity , an aid minimised, that humanity, an aid and access is there that people have access to food, to water, to medicine on, and that there are corridors, safe corridors , are corridors, safe corridors, so that people can pass safely through the country without being bombed? we cannot, as democracies . and israel is a democracies. and israel is a democracy . we step back from the democracy. we step back from the importance of international law

at this moment. as hard as it is . how long do you think any war in gaza might last for david lammy well, look, i'm . not an lammy well, look, i'm. not an army general. i haven't got the intelligence available to me . intelligence available to me. but all of us, of course, are worried particularly about about the children, the women , the the children, the women, the civilians who could be caught up in conflict and about the urban warfare there that we might be about to witness this. so i pray and hope that it doesn't go for on longer than is necessary . on longer than is necessary. >> should the uk government be doing more to get british citizens out of gaza ? well look, citizens out of gaza? well look, i called earlier in the week to ensure that brit ish citizens

were able to get out of both israel and gaza. >> i, i spoke to the egyptians yesterday day, and i know that they are in discussions about they are in discussions about the rafah crossing and many brits are making their way to that crossing so they can exit the country . and i'm pleased , of the country. and i'm pleased, of course, that there are planes now leaving israel , all with uk now leaving israel, all with uk citizens . citizens. >> do you want to see more uk humanitarian aid going to gaza ? humanitarian aid going to gaza? well look, the situation in gaza was already . amongst the very was already. amongst the very worst in the country . worst in the country. >> this is the third most populated area, densely populated area, densely populated area, densely populated area on the planet . populated area on the planet. half of the population are under the age of 41. i have noted that

the age of 41. i have noted that the european union has tripled its aid to gaza overnight. right. and we have called on the government to look again at the support we give to the citizens of gaza at this time. i'm is there a number on that, david lammy, that you want to see it to go up to in terms of aid? well, look, you will recall that this government cut aid substantially , not just to gaza, substantially, not just to gaza, but to places like afghanistan , but to places like afghanistan, sudan. but to places like afghanistan, sudan . it will be for the sudan. it will be for the government to set that figure within its means. of course . but within its means. of course. but i think along with the international community, this is a time to be in support of civilians , citizens and of civilians, citizens and of course , humanitarian workers, course, humanitarian workers, many of whom are british, going about their work at this time. i'm what do you think, james?

>> cleverly your counterpart, should be doing at the moment? should he be urging restraint from israel . from israel. >> well, look, i do think that over the last 24 hours, we've seen the european union. we've seen the european union. we've seen antony blinken , we've seen seen antony blinken, we've seen lloyd austin , the defence lloyd austin, the defence secretary in the us, emmanuel macron, all all understanding and being absolute clear that we support israel's right to defend itself . and we recognise the itself. and we recognise the hard choices that are in front of the israeli unity government, national government at this moment notwithstanding that the international community is saying that this has got to be within international law. and of course we have to follow the rules of war even in war there are rules and they are important rules that came out of the horrors of the second . world

war. >> do you worry that the violence in israel and gaza will take away the focus from the war in ukraine? david lammy. take away the focus from the war in ukraine? david lammy . well, in ukraine? david lammy. well, look , we have a war in europe look, we have a war in europe thatis look, we have a war in europe that is ongoing . that is ongoing. >> that is a result of the imperial ambitions of putin and now we have war now in the middle east. the bandwidth of the international community is strained at this point in time. this war always take place where diplomacy has failed . but we diplomacy has failed. but we must support israel in its attempt to deal with the proscribed terrorist organisation, hamas . yeah . david

organisation, hamas. yeah. david i mean, you have seen the pictures of the march in london yesterday. >> tens of thousands of people march marching down whitehall past the bbc. what did you make of that? there were very few arrests, weren't there? even though hamas is a proscribed and terrorist group in the uk and they were supporting the palestinians yesterday . what do palestinians yesterday. what do you take on on that march ? you take on on that march? >> look, we live in a free society where for a democracy, where people are able to protest and to make their voices heard. and i recognise the huge concerns that the palestinian people have their dignity, their human rights and that we get to that two state solution. so that israel can be a secure and safe place and the palestinians have their own sovereign state where they can live in dignity as well . the police must make these

very difficult calls , though, very difficult calls, though, where people contravene the law and stray into glorifying hate . and stray into glorifying hate. and i suspect that they got that balance rightjust and i suspect that they got that balance right just about right yesterday . okay. yeah yesterday. okay. yeah >> and just finally, david lammy, what's your position on the rise in anti—semitic attacks in the uk? we've got reports in the weekend papers about some jewish people hiding the star of david. >> look, i think it's horrendous and i represent the stamford hill area of london, which is one of the historic homes of our jewish communities over more than a century . the rise in anti than a century. the rise in anti anti—semitism is abysmal. we must stand up to this hate the idea that there are schoolchildren in not attending schoolchildren in not attending school through fear not wearing uniform, through fear , people uniform, through fear, people taking off the star of . david

taking off the star of. david hiding, pretending that they are not of jewish faith is entirely unacceptable . and i stand in unacceptable. and i stand in solidarity with jewish communities at this time who must have the full protection version of the law . version of the law. >> and just finally, you want these schools to open this week. do you ? well look, the advice of do you? well look, the advice of the cst and the metropolitan police is that schools can open and that they are there to support jewish communities . support jewish communities. >> and i want to see all young people right across the country back in school . back in school. >> the shadow foreign secretary, david. labour mp david lammy. now there's more to come. just a moment. i'll be speaking to a spokesman for the israeli defence forces. we're back .

patrick christys on gb news. i'm gb news radio . gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show with me, christopher hope. now as we speak , the israeli armed forces speak, the israeli armed forces are massing at the border with gaza, with analysts suggesting that we'd like to see a full scale ground invasion soon. joining me joining me now joining me now, joining me now to discuss that is lieutenant colonel peter lerner, a spokesperson the israeli spokesperson for the israeli defence peter lerner, defence forces. peter lerner, good to see you. thank you for joining today on the camilla joining us today on the camilla tominey show. what are israel's

war aims ? war aims? >> christopher, thank you. in the aftermath of last week's massacre of israeli families and the abduction of over 120 people, the government has instructed the idf to destroy hamas's capability , to destroy hamas's capability, to destroy and target its leaders and make sure that they can never, ever again target and butcher our babies in their beds. >> so israel will withdraw for when that war aim is completed . when that war aim is completed. and if it's completed , we are and if it's completed, we are determined to destroy hamas's capability and we will absolutely deliver the goods. but but are you fearful, though, that israel could could be engagedin that israel could could be engaged in a propaganda war and a prolonged battle here with with with gaza, with with with hamas in gaza ? hamas in gaza? >> we're already seeing hamas propaganda efforts. that's i think, you know, in this region, fake news was probably invented .

fake news was probably invented. we are trying to combat that. and hamas is obviously going to try and i would say, manipulate people's perceptions of what's going on. yesterday, there was an extensive report of a truck and a convoy that was struck supposedly by the israeli air force . i can confirm at this force. i can confirm at this time no israeli airstrike took place and from our investigation, it appears that hamas created the incident out completely from a to z . so they completely from a to 2. so they are in an effort. completely from a to 2. so they are in an effort . and i'd also are in an effort. and i'd also say we've seen time and time again that has hamas has no problem, no whims in in sacrificing its own people. you know, when they put rockets in the basements of their homes in gaza or drones on the rooftop, drones with explosives on the rooftops of houses just goes to show that they are willing to sacrifice anybody living in those houses. so i would say this is the current situation. we are combating that and most

definitely unprepared that that hamas will ever be able to breach our border and come into our communities. and i would say even more than that, we're not prepared that they will govern the gaza as a staging the gaza strip as a staging ground for terrorism against our people . people. >> but peter lerner, there's a message out today from the israeli defence forces saying that you will allow people in gaza to move south. 10 am. to 1 p-m, gaza to move south. 10 am. to 1 pm, use that window to move p.m, use that window to move south. what happens after1 p.m? >> so we over the last this is day three of the evacuation of people from the north of gaza strip to the south, precisely because the people of gaza are not our enemy, but hamas is our enemy. so we're differentit dating. this is between terrorists and non—combatants. thatis terrorists and non—combatants. that is precisely what we're doing now. what we've seen when we make these announcements, we've active operations on we've seen active operations on behalf of hamas, both physically blocking people from evacuating . blocking people from evacuating. so they want more images of death and destruction as far as their are concerned. but and

also sending messages out, telling people to ignore the idea of construction. we're actually happy to see that people obviously know that hamas are not doing them any favours and therefore actually heading down south. so it's an ongoing this is day three, and we can expect that to continue. now, our ground operation, if and when it does happen , will be in when it does happen, will be in accordance to the laws of armed conflict. we will do the best of our operational capability to differentiate between non—combatants and the terrorist organisation hamas and all of its proxies within the gaza strip. because there are , you strip. because there are, you know, there's a palestinian islamic jihad as well that also have forces and all of these organisations are closely tied with with iran . so we need to be with with iran. so we need to be prepared for the long haul here. it's not going to be a short operation and i would say from our perspective, the government's directive, we are not limited by time , but where not limited by time, but where will they go? >> the southern border is full. it's 2.1 million people living in gaza . where they go? in gaza. where can they go? they're to going squeeze

they're all to going squeeze into the southern part of gaza. i mean, that's that's hardly in line with humanitarian ideas and how others should be treated , how others should be treated, you know, on the contrary, you know, the worst case scenario is actually that they would stay in where we plan to conduct our operations. >> so they should evacuate to the south, where there is places where people can get hold of and take cover for the time being. and indeed, when we finish and complete our operations, we will announce be able announce that they'll be able to come to their you come back to their homes. you know, the situation on the ground where we are ground is one where we are changing the paradigm. when hamas our hamas decides to butcher our babies, they broke the rules of the game. it was a very stable situation of an i would say a non written understanding that hamas manages the gaza strip. it doesn't conduct a terrorist against israel. and for the last two years, they've been very wary about it. and when they decided to break the rules of the game in such a brutal way ,

the game in such a brutal way, we decided to change the game. so hamas will be removed from gaza. we are determined that they will never, ever be able to attack us and our people in their home ever again . their home ever again. >> how many civilians in gaza might die in the coming weeks ? might die in the coming weeks? >> i hope you know, i hope there is no need for civilian death . is no need for civilian death. but unfortunately, 1300 israelis butchered at the hands of hamas leave us no choice but to manoeuvre and operate indeed, the civilian arena for any professional military and the idf is a professional arena , is idf is a professional arena, is a professional military in in this urban arena is extremely challenging and that is why we're doing our best in order to differentiate and separate and indeed instruct people, you know, the types of things that we're doing is dropping, dropping leaflets from the sky, sending out messages , us sending out text messages, us phoning in order that phoning people up in order that they evacuate places where we intend to strike. when we understand they are are understand that they are are

non—combatant people in the area . but yes, hamas needs to pay . . but yes, hamas needs to pay. they need to be removed. and i would say in so much so is that they need to be banished from they need to be banished from the realm of existence . the realm of existence. >> well, peter lennon, when will this happen? is imminently this happen? is it imminently like , tomorrow we are, you like today, tomorrow we are, you know, on standby . know, on standby. >> we are. we've accumulated a huge amount of reservists over the last few days. we've recruited some 300,000 reservists, forces accompanied to the regular forces that the idf has on call at all times . a idf has on call at all times. a lot of those of that 300,000 are, of course, focussed on preparations for potential ground operation . if the ground operation. if the government instructs us to mobilise , we will be prepared. mobilise, we will be prepared. you know, our preparations are ongoing and it's important that we know how to do this. i would also add, though, that some of those reservists that i pointed out that 300,000 are also currently on the border and the frontier with lebanon because hezbollah also testing us as hezbollah is also testing us as we speak . and they are i would

we speak. and they are i would highly recommend that they actually watch how we are diminishing hamas capability to govern in gaza and hunting down their terrorist, their leaders and terrorists and striking their their staging grounds . and their their staging grounds. and i would highly recommend that hezbollah should not cross that line . line. >> how likely is it that there might be an incursion in the north from hezbollah ? north from hezbollah? >> so i'm aware of several cross border attacks even this morning , we've had anti—tank guided missiles fired at our forces . missiles fired at our forces. there are even reports of civilians , aid workers, that in civilians, aid workers, that in construction that were injured in this attack . so there's in this attack. so there's a probable entity. we hope it won't happen. but as we say in the military, hope is not a method. we need to be prepared for any eventuality. >> just finally, peter lerner, do you worry, though, that that you might end up radicalising a whole new generation of people you might end up radicalising a wigaza ew generation of people you might end up radicalising a wigaza to generation of people you might end up radicalising a wigaza to join eration of people you might end up radicalising a wigaza to join hamas of people you might end up radicalising a wigaza to join hamas and eople you might end up radicalising a wigaza to join hamas and fight in gaza to join hamas and fight against israel by this ? against israel by doing this? >> worry for the children of

>> i worry for the children of israel . i worry for the families israel. i worry for the families that live under that threat of being abducted. i worry for the for the young men and women that went to have a party in the desert and never found their way home. those are the people i am charged to worry for. i would expect the leaders of the palestinians, hamas , that they palestinians, hamas, that they take care of their people , that take care of their people, that they use their power in any palestinian government should use their power to govern , to use their power to govern, to create an environment that can flourish and can grow and not build tunnels for terror, rockets . for hate and special rockets. for hate and special forces such as the air force and drones for destruction and death and we won't permit that to be the reality for our civilians. and each side has their own responsibility towards their civilians. i would say, you know, we say with a very, very heavy heart on the saturday of 7th of october, the idf let down on the people of southern israel

. this can never, ever happen again . again. >> well, lieutenant colonel peter lerner, thank you for joining us from israel . the joining us from israel. the joining us from israel. the joining me in studio now is israel's ambassador to the uk, tzipi hotovely. tzipi, thank you for joining us today. you're a forjoining us today. you're a former minister, your mp , now former minister, your mp, now ambassador. you're also a mother . israel's about to go to war. many israeli mothers won't see their children again . how do you their children again. how do you feel this morning? >> well, i'm actually very feeling my mother feelings. i think every parent, every israeli parent will never look at its children again after we've seen those parents protecting their children in those shelters when they're heanng those shelters when they're hearing those guns of hamas terrorists . and unfortunately, terrorists. and unfortunately, some of those families were destroyed . unfortunately, some destroyed. unfortunately, some of those children saw their parents being executed in front of their eyes and some of some of their eyes and some of some of those children are still in gaza. so i can't be not being

emotional . gaza. so i can't be not being emotional. this is gaza. so i can't be not being emotional . this is definitely emotional. this is definitely something that will change. israel forever. some people compare it to 9/11. i would say in proportion when you when you take the numbers, it's bigger because israel is such a small population and 1300 israelis that found their death in a massacre , the october 7th massacre, the october 7th massacre, the october 7th massacre will be always remembered. but my message to you, as as british audience watching that those people marching in london, supporting those horrors of hamas are supporting pure evil. you cannot supporting pure evil. you cannot support pure evil. this is such a simple moral decision to make. do you support mother and fathers protecting their children and their innocent babies or do you support people that kill innocent babies, beheaded them and rape in essence, young women? >> they were marching for us. >> they were marching for us. >> this is what we're sending here. this is this is the two

routes to go. and if you're a civilised man and if you support life and you support human rights, you should support israel at this time. >> and by and large, the crowds yesterday there were big numbers. they were marching for palestinians, not in support of hamas. there's a difference. there hamas. there's a difference. theso would say, first of all, >> so i would say, first of all, the timing , the timing, the fact the timing, the timing, the fact that you're coming after this massacre, you should wave israeli in streets of israeli flags in the streets of london. is the first thing. london. this is the first thing. but the second thing, if you support go and support the palestinians, go and protest against hamas because as james cleverly, a foreign secretary said today, any civilian that got killed, either israeli or palestinian, it's hamas fault. hamas is the one who's preventing at the moment from some older people that we are trying to keep them safe . are trying to keep them safe. they're preventing them to go to a safe shelter when israel is providing a safe route to the palestinian people to go down south. so i can tell you this is something that is cannot be justified . the fact they are

justified. the fact they are preventing their own people to be safe, the fact they want their people to be killed in order to show to the world israel is killing civilians while we are targeting only military targets. >> do want see a march in >> do you want to see a march in the israel ? the uk for israel? >> absolutely. i mean, we've seen last week when, you know, all your streets were coloured blue and white. whitehall still has always , rarely flags on your has always, rarely flags on your buildings . and this is the time buildings. and this is the time where we've seen two, 2000 people marching for israel and standing for israel. but i want to see the streets, not everywhere. >> the arch above wembley stadium was not lit up in the israeli colours. how did that make you feel? >> i think, again, the moral decision simple. i mean, i decision is so simple. i mean, i think britain had its great moment fighting the regime. think britain had its great moment fighting the regime . the moment fighting the regime. the atrocities seen on atrocities we've seen on saturday are very much similar to isis tactics , but also to isis tactics, but also reminded many jews that atrocities jews experienced dunng atrocities jews experienced during the holocaust. so those kind of things have a very, very simple answer. if you want to support good, you want to

support good, you want to support pure evil. do you want to support those horrible, barbaric murderers as you shouldn't? i think i think everyone should feel identifying with israel and also the west is under barbaric attack. we've beenin under barbaric attack. we've been in the past. we saw the fight of the west with isis . and fight of the west with isis. and when people are asking me how much it takes to win this war, i will say when americans felt in mosul , in will say when americans felt in mosul, in iraq, will say when americans felt in mosul , in iraq, there were over mosul, in iraq, there were over 100,000 civilians that got caughtin 100,000 civilians that got caught in a crossfire and got killed . and i'm not justifying killed. and i'm notjustifying that, but i'm saying this is part of the free world fighting against those barbaric terrorism. and we need to make sure that, first of all, we're trying to make innocent palestinians safe. and the second thing is israel is fighting now the most cruel and barbaric terror organisation. and this is the time for people to call hamas. don't prevent from your people to go and find a shelter because the israelis allow and you are the one who getting them killed. >> what's your advice to jews in

britain today? should they should be hiding symbols of should they be hiding symbols of their of david, their faith? the star of david, for example? >> well, this the job of the >> well, this is the job of the police to instruct in police to instruct jews in london. but call to my london. but i call to all my jewish brothers sisters that jewish brothers and sisters that stand now in strong solidarity to israel. we will win this war. we will win this war. and i know the uk government is protecting you. i know that all the organisation is the cst in this community is strong and i know that we will together celebrate late winning this war over this pure cruelty. >> you've got schools that can't open. >> i must say i'm planning to. >> i must say i'm planning to. >> will they open this week? >> will they open this week? >> i'm planning to see all jewish schools open and i know that there will there is enough protection for the jewish schools. so i'm sure all jewish kids will get back to their normal. >> have you personally experienced anti—semitism in this ? this country? >> let me tell you something. this is not the time to discuss the broad anti—semitism. this is the broad anti—semitism. this is the time to remember what israel has been through in the last week. we are still burying our debts. we are still mourning for

the fact 1300 people, most of them young, most of them young families , most of them babies families, most of them babies and children . in those those and children. in those those footages of young children hugging each other, burned to death by hamas. those horrible videos of the massacre and the torture that those people went through. those are the things we're showing to the world. the real face of hamas . what is the real face of hamas. what is the enemy we are facing ? it's enemy we are facing? it's monsters. those guys are monsters. those guys are monsters and monsters. should be treated in a way that hamas will never have the control on the gaza strip again. after israel finishes the war. >> you're a diplomat, too. i mean, do you worry, though, that i mean, it is shocking what happened last last weekend in israel, of course. but if our troops go into gaza in coming days similar loss of life days and similar loss of life happens in gaza, you may lose sympathy. a risk for you. sympathy. that's a risk for you. >> i think that at the moment that the sympathy is with israel , the uk government supports israel. and i want to say how

much i appreciate this support because prime minister sunak said today and last week he said, we will support you always . we a long run support . we give you a long run support in order for you to make sure the job is finished and we cannot do just half the job. you need to listen to this. the main thing now that stands in the head of the prime minister and all the people on the ground, including my brothers, are in the frontline. the main thing at the frontline. the main thing at the moment is the fact that our communities be protected , communities must be protected, that our children will never be in a threat, that terrorists will walk into their bedroom and will walk into their bedroom and will kill them when they're asleep and when they're hiding . asleep and when they're hiding. we cannot afford this type of horror in our streets , and we horror in our streets, and we need to make sure that this threat will permanently be removed and can violence do that. >> but there must be a political solution to this somehow. mustn't there? >> well, there is political solution when the side is solution when the other side is motivated by some type of vision, hamas vision , and you

vision, hamas vision, and you need to read hamas charter in order to understand that is no jew will live in the land of israel , that the whole place israel, that the whole place will be like islamic state. this is vision of hamas. so they is the vision of hamas. so they want to ethnic cleansing . and want to do ethnic cleansing. and you could you could see their intentions could , they intentions if they could, they would butchered every would have butchered every single jew in every single city. so this is their intentions and this is the we are this is the ideology we are facing. this isis type of facing. this is isis type of ideology. they are not interested in any political solution. this is why we solution. and this is why we need to fight. >> started out you said you >> we started out you said you were a mother. what's your message to mothers in gaza facing a very, message to mothers in gaza facin difficult a very, message to mothers in gaza facin difficult few a very, message to mothers in gaza facin difficult few days? very, very difficult few days? >> i'm calling to the mothers of gaza protest against hamas. go take your children, because israel is calling you to be safe and stand up against this horrific terror organisation thatis horrific terror organisation that is selling , stating the that is selling, stating the fact that he's killing babies as if your mothers that care . you if your mothers that care. you cannot celebrate killing innocent babies in terms of the uk, there's a big debate here

about what the bbc, the national broadcaster, should call hamas . broadcaster, should call hamas. >> they're not called terrorists, according to the ofcom rules. did you agree with that? this is disgrace. >> the fact that they don't call it terrorist. what can be more clear than hamas clear terrorism than what hamas did on saturday? this is a recognised terror organisation here in uk , in the us, and here in the uk, in the us, and this should be the word to use . this should be the word to use. and i call everyone one that is watching the bbc to demand that from the bbc to call it by its name because it's terrorism. the bbc would say that was taking sides. >> they can't they can't . they >> they can't they can't. they can't do that because they haven't done it in the past with the ira in this country, for example, just remembering the role that the bbc took in world war two, visiting the charity war two, visiting the charity war rooms, do you think the bbc would have thought that germany shouldn't call by names as shouldn't call by their names as the enemy and shouldn't be named by the atrocities they did because they don't want to take sides ? sides? >> are they standing in the side of the western that are of the western people that are fighting, fighting for freedom?

of the western people that are fightisg, fighting for freedom? of the western people that are fightis terrorting for freedom? of the western people that are fightis terror organisation.)m? of the western people that are fightis terror organisation. all this is terror organisation. all western community, all international community should make sure hamas won't exist after this war. >> well, tzipi hotovely, the ambassador to the uk, thank you for joining this today on the show. thank you. thank you. thank you . now, across the thank you. now, across the middle east is escalated this week. we've also seen it accompanied by a rise in anti—semitic attacks in the uk. the met police have warned of a massive rise in incidents and a number of jewish schools in london not to open on london decided not to open on friday due to safety fears. i'm joined now lord john joined now by lord mann, john mann , government adviser on mann, the government adviser on anti—semitism and a former labour mp , lord mann. john mann , labour mp, lord mann. john mann, thank you for joining labour mp, lord mann. john mann, thank you forjoining us. john thank you for joining us. john mann, can you hear me there ? mann, can you hear me there? okay. well, while we get john mann back, we'll have a quick break now. come after this break. we'll be back with john

7:00 this evening. gb news on the people's . channel the people's. channel >> who is it ? the people's. channel >> who is it? we're here for the show for energy this time. >> welcome to the dinosaur hour. >> welcome to the dinosaur hour. >> i was married to a therapist. >> i was married to a therapist. >> and you survived. >> and you survived. >> i thought we were getting hugh laurie, second best marbella . marbella. >> de—man. >> de—man. >> you interviewed saddam hussein. what's that like ? i was hussein. what's that like? i was terrified. i'm playing strip poker with these three. oh no, thank you. >> my cds need to be put in alphabetical order. oh are you going to be problematic again ? going to be problematic again? >> the dinosaur for our sunday

the 29th of october at nine on gb news. i then lee anderson here join me on gb news on my new show , the real world. new show, the real world. >> every friday at 7 pm. where real people get to meet those in power and hold them to account every week we'll be hearing your views from up and down the country. in the real world. join me at 7:00 on gb news. britain's news channel . and we're back now. >> i'm very sorry. i had some issues there with lord man john. man, we're doing our to best get him back on the show. in him back on the show. but in the meantime, by the meantime, i'm joined now by the retired army officer, retired british army officer, richard he joins me richard kemp. and he joins me from northern israel near lebanon border. and former uk defence secretary mike portillo. richard kemp, what are you seeing there on the border ? seeing there on the border? >> well, today , while i've been >> well, today, while i've been up here, there have been at

least two, possibly more attacks by lebanese hezbollah against israelis , including, i think, israelis, including, i think, one that killed two civilians and wounded some others. so the situation in in the north is hotting up just as the israelis are prepared to go into gaza. and, of course, the two things are completely connected , both are completely connected, both both hamas and hezbollah in the north are sponsored and funded and armed by iran . and armed by iran. >> are you seeing a big build up of troops in in northern israel? richard there is a significant build—up of troops in northern israel and there's also i was talking this morning to the mayor of one of the cities that's about two kilometres away from the border with lebanon, who is deeply concerned about the safety of his citizens. >> they've got bomb shelters . >> they've got bomb shelters. they're worried about, obviously massive rockets being fired into their village , which or their their village, which or their town which is more than within

hezbollah's capabilities. and also they're concerned about hezbollah coming in, crossing the border and coming in and doing to their communities what hamas did to the communities near the gaza border , except near the gaza border, except that the concern is that this is not this is not hamas. this is a far more effective i hesitate to use the word professional , but a use the word professional, but a far more effective, better trained, disciplined terrorist organisation, which potentially could wreak even more slaughter on the population than hamas did in the south. >> are they expecting an attack, richard ? richard? >> well, we've already had attacks over the last few days in number in number. yeah, i think i think in the last few days i've seen there have been attacks probably of greater intensity on the border there than at any time since the last war in lebanon. and there's a there's a there's an expectation that this will continue, whether it intensifies or whether it continues at this sort of rate, which is bad enough, is

obviously a question that only hezbollah can answer . hezbollah can answer. >> you've likened hamas to isis islamic state in an article in the telegraph overnight . do you the telegraph overnight. do you think that force is the only way to respond to this crisis ? to respond to this crisis? >> absolutely . absolutely. there >> absolutely. absolutely. there is no other possible way . hamas is no other possible way. hamas is no other possible way. hamas is not interested in negotiation . they're not interested in any form of compromise. their charter makes it absolutely clear that their purpose , their clear that their purpose, their sole purpose is the destruction of israel and the slaughter of jews in israel and around the world. now, how do you how do you how do you negotiate with that? because the israelis are not willing compromise and not willing to compromise and say, can sort of some not willing to compromise and sajour can sort of some not willing to compromise and sajour people, :an sort of some not willing to compromise and sajour people, butsort of some not willing to compromise and sajour people, but not of some not willing to compromise and sajour people, but not everyone. of our people, but not everyone. so there's is no so clearly there's is no political to this. it's political solution to this. it's a tragedy in every sense. it's going to be it's a tragedy. we've seen so many civilians killed inside gaza already. we're going to see quite a few more , i think, by the time the more, i think, by the time the israelis finish. but when you have the choice between hamas continuing to fire rockets at

communities around israel crossing the border and slaughtering over a thousand israelis or or dealing with hamas and unfortunately, innocent civilians dying as well, then i don't think there is any choice. and the reality is any choice. and the reality is that hamas fight it from behind and within their civilian communities, they want the idf to kill their civilians. that's what they want and that's what they unfortunately, they're to going get to large extent , going get to a large extent, even though the idf do , in my even though the idf do, in my experience, do take extraordinary steps to prevent the loss of innocent civilians on the battlefield . on the battlefield. >> richard, we'll come back come back to you in one second. michael portillo, you're a former defence secretary. he former uk defence secretary. he is. right ? is former uk defence secretary. he is. right? is richard kemp is. is he right? is richard kemp right michael portillo right there? michael portillo that is for some that the answer is, is for some there's a risk, of course, a huge of civilian deaths and huge risk of civilian deaths and casualties in gaza . casualties in gaza. >> and i'm a former defence secretary richard kemp secretary and richard kemp is a former distinguished former very distinguished soldier neither us soldier and neither one of us relishes war because we understand how appalling war is.

and i think the prospect at the moment is so deeply depressing. it's almost beyond the power of words to express this. i think richard kemp is absolutely right that the israelis see no alternative, that they have no alternative, that they have no alternative but to destroy hamas. but we know that many people are going to be killed in that there will be civilians killed. there'll be idf killed, and there'll be hamas killed . and there'll be hamas killed. and richard opens up the and richard now opens up the prospect of at least a two front war with hezbollah as well in the north. and so 1—1 just foresees such a such a flood, such a tide of death ahead of us. and yet none of us can see any alternative . and this is any alternative. and this is obviously appalling for all the people involved and extremely dangerous for the world. and let us just remember that it's only one of two major wars about which we're very concerned at the moment. the >> that's right. and do you worry about i mean, the war in ukraine is going on? michael portillo course, portillo right now, of course, but now it's not in the news. we're rightly

we're focusing rightly on gaza and you can't in and israel, but you can't in terms issue of bandwidth, terms of the issue of bandwidth, which discussed earlier by which was discussed earlier by by on this program, by david lammy on this program, do you think there is a problem with ? can the can the with bandwidth? can the can the west cope with with pressure west cope with with the pressure of different of these two different conflicts? think there is conflicts? yes, i think there is such problem and i think it such a problem and i think it existed even before the hamas attack last saturday. >> is to say that already >> that is to say that already there were signs of western fatigue and the possibility of donald trump becoming president of the united states again, obviously raises the question of how committed the united states will be to ukraine. and i must say the trump position puzzles me very much because it seems to me very much because it seems to me that those of us who believe in decency , in democracy and in decency, in democracy and accountability in an open society, we need to see the right people winning and the wrong people losing. and if russia were to win in ukraine, that's very much an example of the wrong person . yeah. and if the wrong person. yeah. and if terror were to triumph in israel, that would be another such example . israel is a very

such example. israel is a very capable military force and although it will lose many troops and although many civilians will die and many hamas will die , i suppose we hamas will die, i suppose we have confidence that israel will complete the job. in the case of ukraine, russia , i suppose we ukraine, russia, i suppose we have less confidence, less confidence, quite honestly, in ourselves that we're ready to complete the job. >> richard kemp, back to you on northern israel there. when you speak to members of the israeli defence are they intent? defence force, are they intent? they know what they're doing. they're clear on the mission here. they're clear on what what's required and what's required of them. and they're clear of what's facing them, could which could them, which could which could be severe life . severe loss of life. >> i've spoken to israeli soldiers and commanders in the north on the on the border with lebanon. i've spoken to israeli soldiers and commanders around the gaza border in the last few days. and there is there is a degree of apprehension, as any soldier will be apprehensive when about to set foot into a killing area . and so you know,

killing area. and so you know, they're worried about what they are. also is they're absolutely committed every every single soldier i spoke is dedicated to protecting the civilian population inside israel . they population inside israel. they many of them have family members or friends who were slaughtered last weekend. and then there's not i mean, some people have spoken about retribution and vengeance. this is not about retribution and vengeance . and retribution and vengeance. and certainly that has not come through any soldier, through from any soldier, israeli i've spoken to. israeli soldier. i've spoken to. on the contrary, they they they don't want to go in and do what they've they know they've got to do, but they know they've got to do, but they know they they're to they have to. they're ready to do they also recognise, do so. and they also recognise, as michael portillo said , that as michael portillo said, that there may be heavy there may well be heavy casualties among israeli casualties among the israeli defence force as well . defence force as well. >> well, richard, we're looking now pictures from gaza now at live pictures from gaza city, smoke billowing city, the smoke billowing from a building you spoke building there. when you spoke to members of the idf, were they also concerned about the impact on of course, on civilians who, of course, will be the victims and all this ? >> yeah, absolutely they were. and in particular, the idf commanders who were directing the air operation and who will be directing the ground operation. they are extremely

concerned . and although it goes concerned. and although it goes against the prevailing narrative in the west, the idf are absolutely world renowned for doing everything they possibly can to avoid civilian catches on the battlefield. very, very hard when the enemy is using civilians as human shields. but they are very good at it. that that nevertheless doesn't mean there won't be more casualties. i think there will be, i think be more civilian be many more civilian casualties. but i'm very confident myself, from my own experience with the israelis, that they will do everything they possibly can avoid that they possibly can to avoid that happening . happening. >> richard thank >> well, richard kemp, thank you. portillo , back to you. michael portillo, back to you. michael portillo, back to you studio here. were you in the studio here. you were a defence secretary in the 19. 1990s when the ira were doing their attacks on mainland britain. was there a big debate then what call the ira then about what to call the ira a terrorist group? we're told the bbc didn't call them a terrorist group at time. the bbc didn't call them a terrthe. group at time. the bbc didn't call them a terrthe biggestrt time. the bbc didn't call them a terrthe biggest debate me. the bbc didn't call them a terrthe biggest debate was was at >> the biggest debate was was at a time when the bbc was giving a voice to those who were speaking on of the ira and the

on behalf of the ira and the conservative government , of conservative government, of which i was a member, as i recall, legislate to that recall, legislate to make that illegal. and what the bbc then did was to get around the law by by continuing to show the pictures of the people who were speaking on behalf of the ira and their political parties. but they would voice over with an actor's voice. and i think at that point, the government gave up the struggle. so those who were speaking on behalf of a republicanism, including violent republicanism, including violent republicanism, continued to have a voice on the bbc, albeit it that an actor would actually pronounce the words. so i don't remember the dispute being about the word terror , but there was a the word terror, but there was a dispute between the government and bbc that i certainly do and the bbc that i certainly do recall. and i recall actually, funnily enough, recall staying funnily enough, i recall staying in a hotel and there was in a hotel once and there was a member of there person who member of there was a person who worked the bbc there. i worked for the bbc there. and i said you know, is this said to her, you know, is this debated within the bbc? and i remember no, remember she said to me, no, within the bbc, we all agree that should give a voice to that we should give a voice to those people who represent the other said, but other side. and i said, but that's i

that's quite extraordinary. i don't organisation don't know of any organisation in particularly not one of 90,000 people where everyone has the do you find it extraordinary >> do you find it extraordinary that debates happening now, or do i mean, how have you been do you i mean, how have you been in the media for a while now? do you, do the bbc side in you, do you on the bbc side in this debate ? this debate? >> not on the bbc side >> no, i'm not on the bbc side and particularly against and i'm not particularly against them either. they have a long standing policy, which i think they have applied somewhat erratically, which is not helping case. and it's helping their case. and it's also not helping their case that what we saw last weekend was so horrific. how would you describe it as anything other than terrorism? but the bbc is in it for the long and is trying terrorism? but the bbc is in it forsustainlg and is trying terrorism? but the bbc is in it forsustainlg sortd is trying terrorism? but the bbc is in it forsustainlg sort ofs trying terrorism? but the bbc is in it forsustain |g sort of someg to sustain some sort of some sort of position in journalism. >> now, i got to ask you, what's on your show coming up after this hour? this after the hour? >> well, inevitably, we will have of items on this. have a couple of items on this. we're talking a we're going to be talking to a survivor the appalling attack survivor of the appalling attack on the rave. and we're going to be talking about the golden age of british classical music in the 1920s and with the the 1920s and 30s with the biography of a composer called sir bliss . and i'm going

sir arthur bliss. and i'm going to have a in the studio to have a man in the studio called conway, who's called henry conway, who's going to life to introduce me to the life of parties, life and the a—list. >> well, michael padilla , thank >> well, michael padilla, thank you. and we'll look fonnard to watching later on. thank watching that later on. thank you much. well, tom hannood you very much. well, tom hannood is next week at is in for camilla next week at 9:30 and up next, as 9:30 am. and up next, as you just michael just heard, it's michael portillo . portillo. >> who is it? >> who is it? >> we're here for the show . for >> we're here for the show. for energy this time. >> welcome to the dinosaur hour. >> welcome to the dinosaur hour. >> i was married to a therapist. >> i was married to a therapist. >> and you survived. >> and you survived. >> i thought we were getting hugh laurie, second best matthew laza you interviewed saddam hussein . what's that like? i was hussein. what's that like? i was terrified . i'm playing strip terrified. i'm playing strip poker with these three. oh no, thank you. >> my cds need to be put in alphabetical order. oh are you going to be problematic again ? going to be problematic again? >> the dinosaur hour sunday. the 29th of october at 9:00 on gb news. >> now then, lee anderson here

join me on gb news on my new show, the real world. every friday at 7 pm. where real people get to meet those in power and hold them to account every week we'll be hearing your views from up and down the country. in the real world. join me at 7:00 on gb news. britain's news channel >> hello there. i'm jonathan vautrey here with your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office. this is a rather chilly start to the day for many of us, but there is a decent amount of sunshine that is thanks this area of high thanks to this area of high pressure situated across thanks to this area of high presuke situated across thanks to this area of high presuk . situated across thanks to this area of high presuk . but situated across thanks to this area of high presuk . but do situated across thanks to this area of high presuk . but do noticeed across thanks to this area of high presuk . but do noticeed acr(are the uk. but do notice there are some features moving across the the uk. but do notice there are sorr end atures moving across the the uk. but do notice there are sorrend of|res moving across the the uk. but do notice there are sorrend of thatnoving across the the uk. but do notice there are sorrend of that highg across the the uk. but do notice there are sorrend of that high pressurethe top end of that high pressure system. so some showery outbreaks for northern outbreaks of rain for northern scotland a cloudier day scotland will be a cloudier day here. see some of those here. might see some of those showers pushing further showers pushing slightly further southwards coastal southwards into other coastal districts lot northern districts. but a lot of northern ireland, england will ireland, england and wales will be dry with decent amount of be dry with a decent amount of sunshine. temperatures struggling, though not seeing much higher than 9 to 12 c for many of us. so rather cold if you are stepping outside and the fine conditions will continue into this evening overnight,

into this evening and overnight, though, the showers across northern ease back northern scotland will ease back more towards coastal more towards the coastal districts and all of inland areas stay dry . see areas will stay dry. see isolated mist and fog patches forming and forming overnight and temperatures will be temperatures again will be dropping off. pretty chilly one for us. rural frosts for most of us. rural frosts certainly possible once again across central southern scotland and into northern england. we'll be more cloud around on be a bit more cloud around on monday. skies a bit milkier monday. so skies a bit milkier any sunshine that we do get will be hazy, but some sunshine still trying to poke its way through at perhaps now at times. showers perhaps now pushing southeast pushing into the far southeast of still across of england. some still across northern scotland where it will also a touch breezier. the also be a touch breezier. the breeze strengthening across breeze also strengthening across southwest temperatures southwest england. temperatures may be a degree or so, but may be up by a degree or so, but still than 12 to still not much higher than 12 to 13 c. much more 13 c. something much more unsettled arriving as we head into the second half of the week, though, heavy rain

by by >> by >> hello and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. the program which aims to be a perfect bridge from sunday morning to afternoon , striding morning to afternoon, striding through arts culture, politics and world affairs . through arts culture, politics and world affairs. in a few minutes, we'll have three top notch political pundits who will analyse the fallout from the labour party conference. last week , a glittery performance week, a glittery performance from sir keir starmer has given a fresh boost to the opposition. meanwhile the scottish