you this news. lovely to see you this morning . now, as the uk prepares morning. now, as the uk prepares to host a major summit of world leaders on i, i'm going to be asking the science and technology secretary, michelle donelan whether all donelan, whether we should all be fearful of its development with labour tearing itself apart over how to react to the war in the middle east, i'll be joined by khalid mahmood. he's the labour for labour mp who is calling for a ceasefire and who helped to set up meeting between keir up a meeting between keir starmer and muslim labour mps earlier week and as israel earlier this week and as israel finally looks to be launching its offensive in gaza, its ground offensive in gaza, we'll get some expert analysis on what's next. i'll be asking the mod's former middle east adviser, sir simon male how the conflict is likely to play out. and international lawyer natasha hausdorf will joining us to hausdorf will be joining us to discuss whether the invasion is legal . i'm also to be legal. i'm also going to be joined the studio by jeremy joined in the studio by jeremy corbyn's former comms chief, james the editor, james schneider, and the editor, the news editor, in fact, of the jewish news , justin cohen, jewish news, justin cohen, who'll debate whether the government be calling for who'll debate whether the gnceasefiret be calling for who'll debate whether the gnceasefiret the be calling for who'll debate whether the gnceasefiret the first calling for who'll debate whether the gnceasefiret the first place.) for a ceasefire in the first place. and john howard, australia's second longest serving prime

minister, also going to be minister, is also going to be joining me. we're going to be discussing everything from israel the israel to how he thinks the tories here in the uk. tories are doing here in the uk. so to not put it mildly, it's tories are doing here in the uk. soto not put it mildly, it's a jam packed don't go jam packed show. don't go anywhere and get yourself a cup of bed do not miss of tea bed in and do not miss the next 90 minutes and to get us kicked off. joining me us all kicked off. joining me now is gb news colleague and now is my gb news colleague and associate editor of daily associate editor of the daily mail , andrew piercey, as mail, andrew pierce. piercey, as i call him. i like to call him. >> to you. >> morning to you. >> morning to you. >> morning. lovely on >> morning. lovely to see you on my time this braverman. my time on this braverman. >> i can't think why it's taken so long. this is synergy. >> i can't think why it's taken so lo love'his is synergy. >> i can't think why it's taken so lo love to; is synergy. >> i can't think why it's taken so lo love to see synergy. >> i can't think why it's taken so lo love to see it1ergy. >> i can't think why it's taken so lolove to see it happening. >> i love to see it happening. we're both associate editors, admittedly rival newspapers, we're both associate editors, admittedlis rival newspapers, we're both associate editors, admittedlis quitel newspapers, we're both associate editors, admittedlis quite a1ewspapers, we're both associate editors, admittedlis quite a lotspapers, we're both associate editors, admittedlis quite a lot going�*s, but there is quite a lot going on the this morning. on in the press this morning. obviously we've got israel and gaza eating, this gaza dominate eating, but this is story by your sister is a great story by your sister papen is a great story by your sister paper, mail on sunday, paper, the mail on sunday, london jihad demo leader is doctor. this is a guy who was a member of hizb ut—tahrir . it's member of hizb ut—tahrir. it's not prescribed here, but it is bannedin not prescribed here, but it is banned in some countries. 12 and lo and behold, the mail on sunday discovers that he's also a gp, but he operates under a different name, funnily enough.

andrew yeah, he does. >> by day he does his job >> and so by day he does his job and we're very grateful. he does his job and we're sure he does it very well as a gp harrow it very well as a gp in harrow in london. he's also in north london. but he's also the of the british group the leader of the british group of organisation that's been of this organisation that's been proscribed in organisations, proscribed in 12 organisations, including bangladesh . china, for including bangladesh. china, for god's has banned this god's sake, has banned this group russia, turkey and so shamelessly on its own website . shamelessly on its own website. but in the last two weeks camilla talked about the great joy that the gaza invasion of israel had caused muslims worldwide. joy. it was an act of overt terrorism. and there we've got a gp whose job is to bring people's health back to normal, to care for people. yeah, part of everyone equally to treat everyone equally . and this everyone equally. and this organisation also they say they're not a terrorist organisation . fine. they want organisation. fine. they want one worldwide leader for the whole muslim faith. but at that, but at demonstrations in the last 2 or 3 weeks when he's been speaking at this gp, his supporters have been chanting for holy war, holy war. it's

really disturbing. >> i think it's disturbing also for jewish doctors operating in the uk. we've done a story, i did a story myself about a harley street doctor who had kind of put this post on instagram with a swastika alongside an israel flag. it was absolutely disgusting. it's being investigated by the gmc. the story the telegraph today the story in the telegraph today saying three different medical professionals being professionals are being investigated by the gmc investigated not just by the gmc , but also cst and the , but also the cst and the police . i , but also the cst and the police. i mean, , but also the cst and the police . i mean, these people are police. i mean, these people are on one hand working for the nhs and on the other on the streets of london, you know, sharing a platform at times with people who are, i don't know why we're making any about making any bones about it spewing you hate . that's spewing out. you hate. that's what is. what it is. >> jew hate. and let's not >> yeah. jew hate. and let's not call it anti—semitism. let's call it anti—semitism. let's call it anti—semitism. let's call it jew hate. because if you talk some young people, talk to some young people, camilla, what camilla, they don't know what anti—semitism don't anti—semitism means. they don't know is know the expression. it is overt, jew hating a gp. also, by the way, in law has a duty to report any patient he suspects or she suspects. is sidling into extreme missed behaviour. yeah.

do we really think this guy who is the leader of an organisation that's been banned in at least 12 worldwide organisations for peddung 12 worldwide organisations for peddling anti jew hate is ever going to do that? i'm sorry. i don't think so . i don't know. don't think so. i don't know. michael gove i've talked to michael gove i've talked to michael gove i've talked to michael gove about this many times. he's now with us. he levelling up secretary. he's been very vocal on this, saying it should be banned . others say it should be banned. others say if do that, just causes if you do that, it just causes more tension within the muslim community. but i think we have to very carefully at it, to look very carefully at it, especially at the moment. >> there's also been a lot of anti found on anti semitism found on university , which is university campuses, which is something going to ask something i'm going to ask michelle because was michelle donelan because she was briefly secretary 24 briefly education secretary 24 hours, hours. but prior to hours, 24 hours. but prior to that, she was universities minister. so she can hopefully comment on that. you mentioned michael gove there. there's a really interesting story on the front sunday telegraph front of the sunday telegraph that's ministers plan that's headlined ministers plan extremism, as fears extremism, crackdown as fears grow over uk permitting anti —jewish grow over uk permitting anti—jewish hate, just grow over uk permitting anti —jewish hate, just what we were saying. so what are they

planning? i think this is a link up between michael gove and suella braverman. >> yeah, so that's the home secretary never knowingly secretary who never knowingly modest and pulling pulling her punches. modest and pulling pulling her punches . they're concerned punches. they're very concerned that the legislation we've got at the 2015, 2011 is out at the moment 2015, 2011 is out of date and they're worried that the police and the authorities don't have the power to intervene when they see problems on the street to do with hate crime . um, on the street to do with hate crime. um, and i think i think anissue crime. um, and i think i think an issue they're going to have to look camilla. so thousands to look at camilla. so thousands of taking part those of people taking part in those marches wearing marches yesterday were wearing masks . yes. or they had masks. yes. or they had neckerchiefs and scarves wrapped around their faces . why is that around their faces. why is that so? why is that allowed? what are they hiding from? and i saw on a tube station myself , three on a tube station myself, three young men get onto the tube. they'd been to the march with a pro—palestine flags with all masked started shouting abuse in the tube tube carriage, saying anyone here from israel, anyone here from israel , could they here from israel, could they please take their masks down? igniting hatred. of course it is

. and we all stood there. what did do? nothing wrong because did i do? nothing wrong because i'm scared. young as used i'm scared. as young as i used to might said, some to be. might have said, some people be really intimidated. >> also, why are people wearing balaclavas peaceful protests? balaclavas to peaceful protests? >> and think this >> why are they and i think this is things that braverman is all the things that braverman and want looked at their and gove want looked at their language using. if language they're using. if people chanting sort of people are chanting that sort of hatred a tube carriage or in hatred in a tube carriage or in a space, should they be arrested? should they be taken off streets? arrested? should they be taken off but streets? arrested? should they be taken off but do >ets? arrested? should they be taken off but do you�* arrested? should they be taken off but do you get the impression >> but do you get the impression that braverman is frustrated as home secretary that the police aren't action aren't taking more action against we've max against people? we've had max hill, of cps hill, who's the head of the cps andindeed hill, who's the head of the cps and indeed police say there and indeed the police say there are ways to interpret are different ways to interpret the for jihad are different ways to interpret the forjihad on are different ways to interpret the for jihad on the the shouting for jihad on the streets london during streets of london during a pro—palestine march. i mean, i don't know how i would don't know how else i would interpret was interpret it, but if it was somebody shouting with somebody shouting it with a balaclava on and then going on to revelling in to talk about revelling in terrorist atrocities against israelis is i think i'd probably be worried about word jihad be worried about the word jihad beingwould because it's about >> i would because it's about holy war. and yet she she she's being because the being frustrated because the police , as ever, my view, police, as ever, in my view, always seem to on side always seem to err on the side of caution, seem to err

always seem to err on the side of theion, seem to err always seem to err on the side of the side seem to err always seem to err on the side of the side of seem to err always seem to err on the side of the side of the seem to err always seem to err on the side of the side of the offender. err always seem to err on the side of the side of the offender. we on the side of the offender. we have to go back to this doctor, by the his own facebook by the way, his own facebook talking violence talking about the violence igniting joy igniting waves of joy and elation . and that's got to be elation. and that's got to be close to inciting . close to inciting. >> well, it's the glorification of terrorism, which under the old legislation , which i think old legislation, which i think braverman and gove as you say, want beef up that would be want to beef up that would be classified. i think if classified. but i think if people are celebrating in the massacre of women, children and babies on the streets of london, then you would hope that the london, the police would step in and you would some serious and you would make some serious arrests there's no arrests because there's no debate this country debate in this country about whether terrorist whether hamas is a terrorist organisation . organisation. >> now jeremy corbyn may >> it is now jeremy corbyn may struggle that labour struggle with that former labour leader want call leader who might want to call them friend, famously them my friend, famously described hezbollah described hamas and hezbollah as friends, are a terror friends, but they are a terror organisation recognised by organisation as recognised by this country, the european union, west america, nato , union, the west america, nato, the united nations. so this is why braverman and co are very anxious and i think it is. shawcross did a review of the current terrorism legislation and he says it's not strong

enough and we've got to get to grips with it. but i'm not so sure now, now that there would necessarily be the cross—party consensus that you might have expected, because seen , expected, because we've seen, haven't we, in the last. >> well, there's not there's not even inter—party consent in the labour party. so let's just briefly talk the dilemma briefly talk about the dilemma that he's got , briefly talk about the dilemma that he's got, i that starmer faces. he's got, i think, a quarter of his own mps now calling for a ceasefire. he doesn't want to call for a ceasefire. he's instead talked about pauses . how about humanitarian pauses. how does he play this out? >> it's very difficult because he's now got three very powerful figures, three of the most powerful people outside of westminster. andy burnham, mayor of greater manchester, anas sannar, the leader in scotland , sannar, the leader in scotland, and of course, sadiq khan , who's and of course, sadiq khan, who's got a very difficult election next year in london, in my view, all saying ceasefire, which is a flat contradiction of starmer's position. start there, i think is now becoming an almost a minority in his own party because although he wants people to think the days of the to think that the days of the palestinian flag being flown at

labour conference in the bad old days gone. this days of corbyn have gone. this conflict showing there's conflict is showing there's still for gaza in still huge sympathy for gaza in on the labour benches and still l, on the labour benches and still i, i would argue a great hostility to israel. he's and he's trying to present himself now as a world leader. wasn't he strutting the stage a few weeks ago, meeting macron and these sort of people? >> he appears to sort of flip flop because he has previously said that israel's got a right to defend itself. yeah that he's just look as if he's just going to look as if he's manoeuvring for political reasons than humanitarian ones. >> $- ones. >> what tony blair has >> i wonder what tony blair has told do, because on the told him to do, because on the phone a lot, i think he's the puppet master. yes, i do. >> well, let's move on to the tories woes. what on earth we tories woes. what on earth do we think is doing out think peter bowen is doing out campaigning pursglove campaigning with james pursglove , who's a tory minister at the weekend the sunday mirror of snapped them together. i mean, there's no crime in this, to be fair. andrew but it looks a little bit short sighted, doesn't it? >> peter bowen has been suspended allegations of suspended for allegations of bullying. he's been suspended from commons . bullying. he's been suspended from commons. he can't from the commons. he can't go into commons. while

into the commons. so while these. he's denied it. but these. but he's denied it. but there's a by—election coming up in council by—election, his in his council by—election, his constituency, he's still a member tory party. member of the tory party. i believe he's still a member of the tory party. tom pursglove , the tory party. tom pursglove, who was the minister in the next door constituency. pursglove door constituency. tom pursglove sorry, brexiteer , by sorry, a very fine brexiteer, by the they both are in the the way. they both are in the next door. constituency thinks well, he's still a member of the tory party. we want the tories to win the by—election, so i'm going to and campaign with going to go and campaign with the didn't expect the optics. you didn't expect the optics. you didn't expect the catch them the sunday mirror to catch them in action. lights, camera, action! well, mirror will do that. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> and of course, mirror are >> and of course, the mirror are desperate any desperate to stick any anti—labour labour, any anti—tory front anti—tory stuff on the front page because they know that splits in the labour party are going become a very big issue. >> but back to starmer. how hard is this mate? you've got one job, you just keep your powder dry while tories implode dry while the tories implode and yet now yet his own party is now imploding itself. >> it's when this war >> and it's just when this war started, said, this is started, somebody said, this is a problem for rishi sunak a real problem for rishi sunak because going to the because it's going to drive the oil up. and i said, hang oil price up. and i said, hang on, is going to expose the on, this is going to expose the

huge divisions in the parliamentary labour over parliamentary labour party over their support for israel. >> definitely >> labour are definitely struggling issue than struggling on this issue than done on anti—semitism struggling on this issue than donecorbyn on anti—semitism struggling on this issue than donecorbyn and] anti—semitism struggling on this issue than donecorbyn and nowi—semitism struggling on this issue than donecorbyn and now they'veism struggling on this issue than donecorbyn and now they've got post corbyn and now they've got the problem back again. let's talk happier story. you talk a happier story. you mentioned tony blair earlier, talk a happier story. you men happiest ny blair earlier, talk a happier story. you men happiest day lair earlier, talk a happier story. you men happiest day ofr earlier, talk a happier story. you men happiest day of my rlier, talk a happier story. you men happiest day of my life. the happiest day of my life. mandelson finally marries his partner years. now you've partner of 27 years. now you've got a personal stake here, andrew yes, i do. >> i do it. >> i do it. >> i do it. >> i wasn't surprised. it has to be said to get not to get an invitation for the happy occasion. well, all those years ago 1998, when i was a young ago in 1998, when i was a young reporter for peter mandelson, was as a gay man. reporter for peter mandelson, was as a gay man . on was outed as a gay man. on newsnight, newsnight by newsnight, bbc, newsnight by matthew a former tory mp matthew parris, a former tory mp who's also gay because there'd been a scandal involving a labour cabinet minister who was gay, and matthew parish has said very casually, oh, everybody knows there are gay knows there are other gay cavaliers who says that. jeremy paxman , peter mandelson grown , paxman, peter mandelson grown, of course, lots of people, as we know what we know in the westminster bubble. camilla no. one thing outside the westminster bubble, they didn't know. mandelson was know. peter mandelson was horrified. was working on horrified. i was working on

newspaper , you know well at newspaper, you know very well at the the sunday express, the time, the sunday express, great paper, edited by a very great paper, edited by a very great woman journalist amanda patel. how do we patel. and she said, how do we follow up? i said, easy. we follow that up? i said, easy. we run a nice story about who his boyfriend is, which we did it was ronaldo, problem there, was ronaldo, no problem there, because a woman cabinet because if a woman cabinet minister had minister like mo mowlam had a new boyfriend, the papers were all over. oh, but you write about peter mandelson. he was a very, powerful figure in very, very powerful figure in new labour and he doesn't want people to know he's gay. you're in trouble. four weeks later, amanda was mysteriously amanda patel was mysteriously fired newspaper, i fired from that newspaper, and i quit the newspaper in midway through conference. through editorial conference. >> do we think there was a leaning on? we do because lord pressure, lord hollick, lord hollick, who at the time owns the paper, was a very close friend of lord mandelson's lord. mandelson's got lots of very close friends in very influential places, and yet here we are, sign of our times, 27 years later, he's happy to pose for photographs in the papers together with the guy, and they're still together about though. >> and i knew that they were

happy couple and i think i think i sometimes i think called him i sometimes i think i called him his hipped brazilian his snake hipped brazilian lover. as i recall looking at lover. oh as i recall looking at the now of ronaldo , the photographs now of ronaldo, i couldn't say that. >> now have come on a bit, >> now we have come on a bit, haven't we, andrew, in this amazing time, i don't know if we'd be a story. wouldn't amazing time, i don't know if we'd storybe a story. wouldn't amazing time, i don't know if we'd story now story. wouldn't amazing time, i don't know if we'd story now storya mouldn't amazing time, i don't know if we'd story now storya cabinet. be a story now with a cabinet minister gay, nobody would mind. >> no, of course not. nobody would care. and who does care? well let's see if we care about would care. and who does care? welnexts see if we care about would care. and who does care? welnext story. if we care about the next story. >> sue son is wannabe >> sue grey's son is wannabe labour mp. funny that isn't it? now, is this nepotism ? um, we've now, is this nepotism? um, we've got sue gray obviously having moved from being the resolutely . moved from being the resolutely. impartial civil service, the most impartial civil servant to becoming keir starmer's chief of staff. lo and behold, staff. and now, lo and behold, we discover that her son, he's not got seat yet. not not got a seat yet. he's not been selected seat, but he been selected for a seat, but he is a parliamentary candidate for laboun is a parliamentary candidate for labour. he's a potential parliamentary candidate. labour. he's a potential paryeah,1tary candidate. labour. he's a potential paryeah, hey candidate. labour. he's a potential paryeah, he she ndidate. labour. he's a potential paryeah, he she remember sue >> yeah, he she remember sue gray from gray of course, went from astonishingly , the custodian of astonishingly, the custodian of ethics in government to which meant she conducted the partygate inquiry into boris. some people say she pulled her

punches. i think the report finished off boris johnson job done would say keir starmer. then we discover that she'd been in talks with keir in secret talks with keir starmer about becoming chief starmer about becoming his chief of is his chief of of staff. she is his chief of staff now. i saw her at the labour conference. she fixed me with a death stare. >> did you not have a little chat? >> tried to back off. oh i said. she's a party activist. back off. doesn't talk to the press. >> okay, fair enough. and now we've media facing. we've got media facing. >> no, but discover her >> no, but now we discover her son. to be fair, has been a son. who to be fair, has been a labour party activist for many years and is the chairman of labour's irish group, in the labour's irish group, is in the short on list now to short on the short list now to be labour candidate in a very safe, winnable seat. he'll be a labour next general labour mp at the next general election and sure the fact election and i'm sure the fact his mum who runs keir starmer his mum who runs keir starmer his make no his office will make no difference to whether difference whatsoever to whether he none whatsoever. he gets that. none whatsoever. it'll all be about merit ability. >> if she's not media >> well, if she's not media facing, is. and we facing, perhaps he is. and we hope you'll get him your hope that you'll get him on your show, returns tomorrow. show, which returns tomorrow. andrew does with bev turner. you're back. tell what time you're back. tell us what time so can tune in 9:30 am. it so we can tune in 9:30 am. it will packed and lively

will be packed and lively through noon. will be packed and lively throughbe noon. will be packed and lively throughbe good. will be packed and lively through be good to will be packed and lively throughbe good to be back on >> it'd be good to be back on air 24 hours time. >> keep tune so that you can watch andrew bev on their watch andrew and bev on their show. to be you. show. lovely to be with you. >> will you have me back? >> will you have me back? >> of course i will always lovely on this sunday lovely to see you on this sunday morning. very to morning. thank you very much to andrew pierce we say, he's andrew pierce as we say, he's back 930 tomorrow. now, we've back at 930 tomorrow. now, we've got more to come the got a lot more to come on the camilla tominey show. i'm going to be interviewing two experts camilla tominey show. i'm going to israelzrviewing two experts camilla tominey show. i'm going to israel and wing two experts camilla tominey show. i'm going to israel and wingconflict)erts on israel and the conflict there. i'm also going to be speaking to james schneider, who's jeremy corbyn's former head going be head of comms, who's going to be debating the head of comms, who's going to be debateditor the head of comms, who's going to be debateditor of the the head of comms, who's going to be debateditor of the jewish the news editor of the jewish news, about situation gaza. and about the situation in gaza. and i've got the government, science and technology secretary michelle coming but michelle donelan coming up. but here's the weather first. >> good morning. my name is rachel ayers and welcome to your latest news weather forecast brought to you by the met office so the first half of the weekend was fairly unsettled, but what will sunday bring? well last night's rain is now across northern england and scotland, bringing some fairly heavy and persistent rain here for much of the day . elsewhere, it's a the day. elsewhere, it's a mixture sunshine and showers

mixture of sunshine and showers and these will be most frequent and these will be most frequent and southern and and heaviest across southern and western coasts . it's the central western coasts. it's the central slice of the uk that's going to see the driest and brightest weather and feeling pretty pleasant in any sunny spells here away from the strong winds across the and south across the north. and south coast. so as we go through tonight, that rain is going to continue across eastern parts of scotland . showers continuing scotland. showers continuing elsewhere as well, but still a few clear spells , especially in few clear spells, especially in the east. and this is where we're going to see some of the lowest temperatures as we go through tonight and to start of the new working week. but still not a frost around for not expecting a frost around for monday morning. so through monday, then it's another day of sunshine and showers. for many, though, we will start to see those showers easing a little, though, along the south coast as we through the day. rain we go through the day. rain continuing still, though, across eastern parts of scotland. they're becoming slightly more patchy in nature. and those winds now coming from the north across scotland. so feeling

slightly cooler here, still clinging onto something slightly warmer across south, though . warmer across the south, though. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now we're just waiting for michelle donelan in to be ready to speak to us. she's the secretary of state for science and innovation and technology. going technology. she we're going to be discussing i'm going be discussing ai. so i'm going to andrew pierce back to bring andrew pierce back into the conversation. are you worried about the march of ai? are you and i going to be out of jobs 2030? are you and i going to be out of job:do 2030? are you and i going to be out of job:do you 2030? are you and i going to be out of job:do you reckon it might be >> do you reckon it might be even sooner? i'm really worried. i can't bear fact that i can't bear the fact that they can. a piece that can. i can write a piece that you and i do. yes. and at some point ai is going to be able to do probably we're doing do probably what we're doing here. worried and it here. i'm really worried and it does many good things, but it's the sinister side really the sinister side that really humans be control of it. >> i mean, i remember speaking to who high up in to somebody who very high up in this world and was like, it's this world and he was like, it's not the terminator, you not like the terminator, you know, you're not going get know, you're not going to get the taking over. and the machines taking over. and i think, actually, not think, well, actually, i'm not sure right. think, well, actually, i'm not surnsorry. right. think, well, actually, i'm not surnsorry. i right. think, well, actually, i'm not surnsorry. i think that already >> sorry. i think that already they're getting too big. big for their own boots and clever their own boots and too clever by half. that's rishi

their own boots and too clever by hal'is that's rishi their own boots and too clever by hal'is convening rishi their own boots and too clever by hal'is convening thisrishi sunak is convening this conference. he's had of conference. he's had a lot of criticism, hasn't he, that whether should have invited whether he should have invited china are definitely china and china are definitely going, other world going, but other world leaders aren't. >> i'm to going michelle >> i'm to going ask michelle donelan moment. donelan this in just a moment. why is this summit being snubbed? >> i don't get but he >> i don't get it. but he deserves for it because deserves credit for it because what he wants to look at are the dangers ai. dangers of ai. >> think she's ready. thank >> i think she's ready. thank you much. you more. you very much. tell you more. michelle joins me now. michelle donelan joins me now. lovely see morning. lovely to see you this morning. secretary state. i just secretary of state. i just wanted start the ai. wanted to start on the ai. lovely to you. i wanted to lovely to see you. i wanted to start on this ai summit so we know that china are coming, but we don't think we're going we don't think that we're going to any representation from to have any representation from the germany, france, the us, canada, germany, france, japan is this japan or italy. so is this summit snubbed by everyone japan or italy. so is this surrthe snubbed by everyone japan or italy. so is this surrthe chinese?ubbed by everyone but the chinese? >> no. i mean, that list that you've read out is you've just read out is completely basically, completely wrong. basically, we haven't the guest list haven't produced the guest list or who's rsvp'd . yes, because or who's rsvp'd. yes, because this is a summit of this scale. you would expect that. hence why there's been speculation over who's coming. but what you will see next week is that we have every corner of the globe in attendance. we have the top

companies that are working in this space. we have some of the best and the brightest thinkers from across the globe in civil society . we will be having society. we will be having a really targeted discussion around these highly capable models around the risks and the opportunities for the very first time, i should add . time, i should add. >> okay, so who's the most senior world leader who's attending apart from rishi sunak then ? then? >>i then? >> i can't go into that because we have had a clear policy not to give a running commentary on the guest list. but you you only have a few days left to wait and see. what i can tell you is you will see represents station from across the globe and the engagement and the level of interest in this summit has been extremely because it's very extremely high because it's very timely. set of models timely. the next set of models will be coming out next we will be coming out next year. we have now to be have a short window now to be very proactive, be on the front foot the risks foot and drill into the risks properly, understand those risks so we can seize the so that we can seize the opportunities for our public services, for our nhs. >> we do know support >> but we do know support network. we do know who isn't

going. we know that emmanuel macron isn't going biden macron isn't going joe biden isn't going. i mean, can you isn't going. so, i mean, can you have summit without have a global summit without some key heads of some of these key heads of government attending ? government attending? >> well, the vice president of america has already come out and said that she is attending and obviously she is extremely senior in terms of representing america . so i don't think it's america. so i don't think it's fair to characterise it as as not having the heavyweights around the table. not having the heavyweights around the table . we have day around the table. we have day one and day two on day one, we will see multiple of my counterparts there. we will see representation from all of the big ai companies as well as smaller ones as well. and as i said, great wealth of expertise from civil society . okay. from civil society. okay. academics and scientists to add to that debate and conversation about what more can countries do. but also what more can the companies do to really put up the right guardrails and safety processes so that they can lean into this? we can get those opportunities are liz truss and iain duncan smith worrying unnecessarily about the presence of the chinese?

>> obviously is concern >> obviously there is a concern about chinese hacking and you're inviting them our ai summit. inviting them to our ai summit. >> well , this isn't just our ai >> well, this isn't just our ai summit . we >> well, this isn't just our ai summit. we are of course convening the for world the first time, but this needs to be a proper global conversation. and let's face it, it is undeniable that al that china are a leading ai nation. they're notjust are a leading ai nation. they're not just consumers of ai, they're producers of ai as well. the second in the world. if we're going to have a really productive conversation, if we're going strategic we're going to be strategic about have to at least about this, we have to at least try to talk to and work with china. absolutely. there are areas where we won't want to inform them about certain parts of our work because of national security. but we need to at least try and bring them to table is akin to climate change. if we're going really have an if we're going to really have an impact, need to work together impact, we need to work together here. >> let's move to just >> okay. let's move on to just another that's the another story that's on the front of the sunday mirror. front page of the sunday mirror. do you that colleague do you think that your colleague tom should have been tom pursglove, should have been out campaigning this weekend with peter bone following his suspension ?

suspension from the tory party? >> well, i don't know the full details . details. >> he was out campaigning with him this weekend. >> this was a yeah, yeah. no, it's my understanding that it was a local campaign action day for a local by—election. obviously tom is the local mp would be there. peter bone also happened to peter bone have been there. the question that you need to ask tom i'm asking you , need to ask tom i'm asking you, though, should peter bone have been the whip we been there, the whip yes, we well, what we have done is we have stripped the whip from from peter bone very swiftly . there's peter bone very swiftly. there's obviously been an investigation. he's suspended the he's been suspended from the house . i was not house as well. i was not obviously in that area. i'm an mp in a different . should he mp in a different. should he have been there? i can tell you. is the government has acted quickly here. that is quickly here. well, that that is a him. he is no a decision for him. he is no longer a conservative. do longer a conservative. what do you though? would argue you think, though? would argue he be he shouldn't therefore be campaigning? he shouldn't, campaigning? well, he shouldn't, therefore be campaigning on behalf shouldn't have been there. >> he shouldn't have been there. >> he shouldn't have been there. >> a conservative mp would be my view. >> so he shouldn't have been. >> so he shouldn't have been. >> is if you're not >> my view is if you're not a conservative, you shouldn't. well, i wouldn't put it

well, yes, but i wouldn't put it as as that. say that as simple as that. i'd say that if you're not a conservative, you be advertising you shouldn't be advertising and promoting the conservative party. i mean, that seems like common sense me. common sense to me. >> let's move on to the situation gaza. know situation in gaza. we know a particular case is yousaf particular case is humza yousaf family. plenty family. i know there are plenty of others. this is a his in—laws are live in dundee. they're british you give british citizens. can you give us any insight at all how us any insight at all as to how the government might be helping us any insight at all as to how the gonousaf|t might be helping us any insight at all as to how the gonousaf in—laws be helping us any insight at all as to how the gonousaf in—laws getielping us any insight at all as to how the gonousaf in—laws getielpi of humza yousaf in—laws get out of gaza and indeed other british citizens as yeah, as you say, there are multiple families up and down the uk that are deeply impacted by this. >> and i just want to say that my thoughts and prayers are with them as they go through something that must be absolutely awful and there are 200 people, believe , on the 200 people, i believe, on the ground in gaza who have registered our foreign registered with our foreign office that are british nationals. are to nationals. we are trying to ensure that we can get that border open so that we can get those people home and we can maintain contact with them. and i know that the foreign secretary has prioritising this area. spoke to him area. in fact, i spoke to him just last night and he reassured

me by saying this is one of his just last night and he reassured me prioritiesj this is one of his just last night and he reassured me prioritiesj tidois one of his just last night and he reassured me prioritiesj tido you|e of his just last night and he reassured me prioritiesj tido you think|is top priorities is do you think that police should be that the police should be treating who for treating people who cry for jihad on the streets of london for hate crimes ? i think that we for hate crimes? i think that we have very stringent laws , laws have very stringent laws, laws in this country around terrorism and also the public order act. and the police should be using the full weight of the law to ensure that people are incited, are they not, at the moment, hatred? it is not okay. it is not okay to be shouting jihad on our public streets. the home secretary has been addressing these with our these issues directly with our police and we continue to talk to them to make that they to them to make sure that they are full weight of are utilising the full weight of the law to ensure that we can maintain public order and we can protect our citizens, which is the priority of the top priority of any government. the top priority of any gov so ment. the top priority of any govso m(max hill, the head of >> so is max hill, the head of the cps wrong then, because he says that it doesn't necessarily mean it's hate crime ? i so mean it's a hate crime? i so look operational decisions are in the hands of the police. >> they are operationally independent. and of course, they will have more information

around the context of things, etcetera. but what we are saying is our law is robust. it needs to be applied in that fashion. it is not okay to incite violence or hatred on our streets. it is not okay to be doing that in relation to prescribe terrorist organisations as well . organisations as well. >> is it right to be saying from the river to the sea on the streets of london when everybody knows what the implication of those words are for the israelis i >> well, yeah, on that very phrase, the implications are the eradication of israel, which is deeply not just offensive but also deeply dangerous in terms of its sentiment. if that is how it is being applied . so the it is being applied. so the police absolutely need to be mindful of that. and the home secretary has been very clear and i believe wrote to two police forces on that very topic, along with with others . topic, along with with others. >> ms donelan very, very briefly, because we're running out time, should universities out of time, should universities also clear their act when it also clear up their act when it comes to jew hate .

comes to jew hate. >> anti—semitism has no place in any part of our society , any part of our society, including our universities. that is something that i was very strict on when i was universities minister. and i know that the current department for education ministerial team have been to. they have written to all universities already and reiterated because as look, reiterated that because as look, our universities are where the minds of tomorrow are shaped . it minds of tomorrow are shaped. it is secretary of state for anti—semitism to be to be allowed to proliferate . allowed to proliferate. >> thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. forjoining us this morning. michelle donelan lovely to speak to you. now, despite flying high in polls this week, starmers in the polls this week, starmers labour been

welcome back to the camilla tominey show in just a minute, i'll be asking the longest serving muslim mp in parliament, labour's khalid mahmood, whether keir starmer has lost his grip on his increasingly fractious party. but first, let's get the news with tatiana sanchez . news with tatiana sanchez. camila thank you very much and good morning. it's 10:00. camila thank you very much and good morning. it's10:00. this is the latest there are reports this morning of residents in gaza breaking into aid centres and warehouses in a desperate search for vital supplies. the united nations described it as a worrying sign that civil order is starting to fade with the ongoing conflict giving way to a humanitarian catastrophe.

despite assurances from israel that aid trucks will be allowed into gaza , the un says supplies into gaza, the un says supplies crossing the border from egypt are insufficient . are insufficient. >> and last night, israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu said the second stage of its war with hamas has begun and warned of a long and difficult campaign ahead with a group of israeli activists have held an anti—war demonstration in tel aviv. protesters blocked a road near the ministry of defence, holding up banners claiming war has no winners. they also called for a ceasefire and the return of hostages . and the return of hostages. benjamin netanyahu met some families of hostages yesterday, reassured them their release is part of the country's military goals in gaza . and as you've goals in gaza. and as you've been hearing this morning, the hollywood actor matthew perry, star of the legendary sitcom friends, has died. he was 54. >> this guy was me. and it was me who had learned that it was me who had learned that it was me who had learned that it was me who was the best you'd ever had. i'd be going like this.

>> police were called to his home in los angeles, where he was found unresponsive in a hot tub. he became a household name as the dry and witty chandler bing alongside jennifer aniston and lisa kudrow. among many others. the enormous success of friends made it an icon of the 1990s popular culture. it ran for ten seasons with a final episode becoming the fifth most watched finale in television history. warner brothers said in a statement that his comedic genius was felt around the world and his legacy will live on in the hearts of many showbiz expert kinsey kinsey schofield spoke to gb news about the sad news. >> this is a man who we have seen working on his body and challenging his body over the last few weeks. one of the last paparazzi photos taken of matthew was on october third as he exited a gym. so i know that there is speculation in regards to his past and, you know, could

he could some of those demons have come back to haunt him when it comes to addiction? but he over the last year or so, i'd say two years now, was very proud of his sobriety, promoted his sobriety and was focussed on being better physically and mentally. >> and police are being encouraged to double their use of facial recognition software to track down offenders over the next six months. policing minister chris philp says the technology could be used to scan more than 200,000 images matching them against the police database. he's also encouraging police to expand the use of live facial recognition so that offenders might be identified on the spot . mr philp says it will the spot. mr philp says it will allow police to stay one step ahead of criminals and make britain's streets safer . you're britain's streets safer. you're with gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on your digital radio and now on your smart speaker . by simply saying play speaker. by simply saying play gb news. now it's back to .

camilla >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show in just a moment. i'm going to be joined by khalid mahmood. he's the labour mp who is for a ceasefire and is calling for a ceasefire and helped to set up that meeting between starmer and muslim between keir starmer and muslim labour week as labour mps earlier this week as israel looks to be israel finally looks to be launching its ground offensive in get some expert in gaza. we'll get some expert analysis what's i'm analysis on what's next. i'm going be asking the mod's going to be asking the mod's former east adviser, sir former middle east adviser, sir simon mayall, how conflict simon mayall, how the conflict is to play out. and is likely to play out. and international lawyer natasha hausdorf will be telling us whether she thinks the invasion is legal. i'll also be joined in the studio by jeremy corbyn's former comms chief, james schneider, and the news editor of jewish news, justin of the jewish news, justin cohen, whether the cohen, who'll debate whether the government for government should be calling for a ceasefire and i'm delighted to be saying that i'm going be be saying that i'm going to be joined howard, joined by john howard, australia's second longest joined by john howard, australi prime:ond longest joined by john howard, australi prime minister, est joined by john howard, australi prime minister, who'll serving prime minister, who'll be in the studio a little later. we're be discussing we're going to be discussing everything israel to how everything from israel to how he thinks tories here thinks the tories are doing here in you won't want to

in the uk. you won't want to miss it, but first of all, let's bnng miss it, but first of all, let's bring khalid mahmood the bring khalid mahmood into the conversation. mp conversation. he's the labour mp for birmingham perry barr. he's also serving muslim also the longest serving muslim mp this week mp in parliament and this week he organised a meeting between keir muslim mps. keir starmer and muslim mps. khalid, to see you this khalid, lovely to see you this morning. thank you very much for sharing with was sharing your time with us. i was really intrigued by a piece you wrote, i think was for the wrote, i think it was for the times criticising the muslim council of britain for its response to the murder of 1400 israelis by hamas . do you not israelis by hamas. do you not think that there have been enough mainstream muslim voices condemning hamas ? condemning hamas? >> i think there's been a lot of muslim mainstream voices now that have condemned hamas. i again want to condemn hamas . for again want to condemn hamas. for the 7th of october. i think it was totally barbaric. but i think also one issue has to be raised is that where was the responsibility of the idf and the government to allow these people to run riot for six hours before any action was taken ? i before any action was taken? i think so. the netanyahu has some

questions to answer as well for allowing this escalation to take place . place. >> when we look at the protests that are going on in the streets of london, one thing that confuses me and maybe you can help me with this, khalid, is we've always heard that it is obviously islamophobic try obviously islamophobic to try and any way peaceful and conflate in any way peaceful muslims with any kind of terror atrocity . and yet at the same atrocity. and yet at the same time, we do have we have seen these pro—palestinian marches on these pro—palestinian marches on the streets of london and elsewhere who seem to be happy to share a platform with people who are supporting terrorists, who are supporting terrorists, who are supporting hamas. how do we how do we square that circle ? we how do we square that circle? >> khalid well, i think those people don't help the cause of the people. you know, over the last almost 21 years since i've beenin last almost 21 years since i've been in parliament that i've always fought against since 911, against terrorism, radicalisation in the uk and terrorism generally across the world. and that does no good to any community, certainly to the muslim community, to have those

people on board. what we've got to do is get the mainstream, the community having a peaceful protest highlighting the issues that he wants to highlight, and that's the only way fonnard when the and the of the the police and the head of the cps about this cps talk about this many meanings jihad is that right? meanings of jihad is that right? >> or if people are calling for jihad the streets of london, jihad on the streets of london, in context a in the context of a pro—palestinian march where also people are talking about jews in very anti—semitic terms, how should we interpret that use of the word jihad ? the word jihad? >> well, first of all, any form of anti—semitism is deplorable. has anti—muslim feelings also think in the same way , but think in the same way, but think, look, there are lots of meanings to jihad and think also we have to be very careful . we have to be very careful. those people that are using the word jihad to understand what environment that they're using it in. and i think it's difficult for the police to be able to determine that . and able to determine that. and that's a real issue . i don't that's a real issue. i don't know what operational guidance there will be for them to do

that, but i think in order to have a proper representation of the people that are suffering in gaza, you don't need to bring these sort of words into that arena . arena. >> on the subject of a ceasefire, khalid, i know there are mounting number of labour mps now calling for keir starmer to support a ceasefire. he's talked about human victarion pauses. talked about human victarion pauses . he's previously says pauses. he's previously says that israel has a right to defend itself . where should the defend itself. where should the labour leader go from here? because this infighting within the party seems to only be getting worse . getting worse. >> well, i think look, i think sir keir matters, as you said last week, is agreed to meet us again as soon as we want to be able to meet and see whether the situation progresses. so he's quite keen and happy to do that. i think look , this has been a i think look, this has been a very quick , evolving situation very quick, evolving situation and sometimes politically trying to keep abreast of it's been difficult. so sir keir , last difficult. so sir keir, last week, on wednesday issued a statement on pauses . i think now

statement on pauses. i think now the united nations are calling for a sort of, again, a cessation of violence . there's cessation of violence. there's been a vote taken on that and we need to move fonnard. whatever over the term is, whether it's ceasefire, cessation of violence or or a pause. we need to stop the fighting and get aid into those people which are suffering hugely . hugely. >> and is there ever going to be a hope, though, khalid, of such a hope, though, khalid, of such a kind of diplomat or military downing of weapons when israel are having to negotiate with actual terrorists who have a founding charter which commits itself to the annihilation of all jews? how do you broker a ceasefire with a terrorist organisation ? organisation? >> i think, first of all, look , >> i think, first of all, look, ihave >> i think, first of all, look, i have no love lost for hamas . i i have no love lost for hamas. i think what they're doing is putting a lot of people in harm's way and i think also israel has a responsibility to look at the amount of people that are being killed through the action that's going on. but as far as hamas is concerned, what you will only resolve this

by dialogue. nobody will resolve this by any form of military action. and of course, the lives of those hostages that are there. we it's important that we get those people out. qatar has said that they will support to try and bring those people out. but there's got to be, again, a cessation of violence . but the cessation of violence. but the only way to negotiate with hamas is getting the arab league, the people from the gulf region to sit together, work with them and they have to ultimately be they will have to ultimately be a united nations and an arab league force going there league force going into there and trying clear that out. that's the only way you're going to do it. you're not going to do it by a particular violence and war that's going on at the moment. >> yeah. what's your reaction to your mahmood? your colleague shabana mahmood? she has said israel is she has said that israel is guilty of collective punishment in gaza . she's the shadow in gaza. she's the shadow justice secretary. should she be using that language? >> well, look what's happening at the moment in gaza is very difficult. and when you've got people that have no choice in a

very built up urban environment and those people are being attacked like that, i think there has to be a cessation in that violence to stop that . i that violence to stop that. i think people are trapped. so what words can you use? i don't know what words are right to use in this , uh, example or not. but in this, uh, example or not. but the fact is netanyahu didn't respond in time to allow these people to take lives of 1400 israelis, but it's still the fault of the terrorists. >> it's the fault of the terrorists for taking the lives. surely >> no, no. but why no idf and the government has a responsibility to israeli citizens to ensure that they keep them safe. >> in this instance , for six >> in this instance, for six hours they allowed these people to run, riot and not do anything. whereas the inquiry into that, where are the facts around that? and so you can't now just abuse the fact that we've got a right defend we've got a right to defend because those people died . where because those people died. where is the where is the questions answered on that? khalid mahmoud, thank you very much indeed joining me this morning.

>> lovely to speak to you. now i'm now by the former i'm joined now by the former defence secretary, michael portillo, presenting portillo, who will be presenting his as usual his gb news show as usual after this from 11:00. now this show from 11:00. now i recall, i think you recall, michael, i think you were a defence secretary around the the signing of the the time of the signing of the oslo accords about 30 years ago . oslo accords about 30 years ago. could you have envisaged then in what is now happening in israel now ? now? >> um, well, israel has always beenin >> um, well, israel has always been in this unstable position, surrounded by very hostile forces and has had to arm itself to the teeth and indeed prevent terrorists from entering its territory. and the prevention of terrorists entering its territory is what is characterised by others as being the repressing of the populations in those places where the people are restrained behind fences and walls . so behind fences and walls. so i suppose, yes, i mean, one could foresee a reigniting of violence . there was a period when israel was very successful. of course , was very successful. of course, brokered a peace with egypt after the yom kippur war, which was a catastrophic failure by

the invading forces from egypt and syria. and so, you know, israel has been through a relatively stable period , but in relatively stable period, but in that period, it has not ceased to be in danger. and the forces against it, although they are now not neighbouring state actors, it's not egypt anymore, which is the threat. it is these terrorist organisations which apparently are backed by iran, which has caused not exactly a neighbour. so the threat is there and, and one of the traps that was built for israel was that was built for israel was that the threat from terror was so great that it would have to take extraordinary measures that we don't associate readily with a democracy like building walls and fences and restricting people's freedom of movement. and so on. and all of that has built up a lot of public opinion around the world against israel. but one has to sympathise with israel because it is trying to survive in a situation where, as you've just pointed out, it is surrounded people who are surrounded by people who are determined to destroy it. >> you'll be covering >> no doubt you'll be covering this. what else are you covering

on show, michael um, we're on your show, michael um, we're going ukraine, going to look at ukraine, a somewhat forgotten subject. >> a marvellous >> yes, there's a marvellous set of the of documentaries on itv at the moment about the ukrainian children been taken into children who've been taken into russia, alleged russia, which is alleged to be a war crime . we're going to be war crime. we're going to be looking at esg , which is the looking at esg, which is the guidance that's given to companies on economic and social and governance, has this actually depressed share prices ? actually depressed share prices? is it actually a bit of a scam? and we're going to be talking to the shadow defence secretary of australia about australia's attitude to china. and i'm going to be talking to a young man who has followed the steps of his great grandfather. he was an raf pilot who was downed in france and he walked to safety through the pyrenees from france into spain. the young man has gone back retraced his footsteps back and retraced his footsteps and descendants of those and met the descendants of those who gave him refuge on the way at great peril. >> what a voyage of discovery. fantastic. i'm really looking fonnard to your show at 11. now do not move a muscle, because after the break, i'm going to be

joined two experts who will joined by two experts who will tell we can expect from tell me what we can expect from the impending ground invasion of gaza

patrick christys on gb news. i'm gb news radio . gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now i've got that expert panel that i promised you earlier. so simon male joins me now. he's the former deputy chief the defence staff and chief of the defence staff and an on the middle an mod advisor on the middle east. natasha hausdorf also east. and natasha hausdorf also joins little director of uk

joins me, little director of uk lawyers for israel. you may remember her from the week because she went viral for taking on the bbc and correcting them matters. lovely to them on a few matters. lovely to see you both. obviously in the newspapers today. a lot newspapers today. there's a lot of ceasefire. let's just of talk of ceasefire. let's just first discuss whether that's viable, possible , desirable. viable, possible, desirable. natasha unfortunately, those calls for a ceasefire are simply playing into hamas hands every time there have been previous cease fires, it seems to be a situation which israel ceases. >> hamas continues to fire. and let's not forget that there are still over 200 hostages being held in gaza. >> would you be more in favour then of keir starmer's humanity pauses. >> i mean, there is a problem here, isn't there, in that the ids are saying to people of gaza, go south, go south. hamas are quite happy to use those people as human shields as s0 people as human shields as so you've still got this intensely, densely populated region with people just as far as we can tell, sitting ducks. >> well, the key problem with humanity , an aid going in as it humanity, an aid going in as it is now and continuing to do is

diversion to hamas . we have seen diversion to hamas. we have seen a long history, heaps of evidence of hamas continuing to divert aid to its own terror purposes . the key is to get the purposes. the key is to get the civilian population to the south of gaza and ideally across the border into egypt. that is what the international community ought to be calling for, because that's where they can be properly looked and properly looked after. and humanitarian humanitarian aid can it being can be provided without it being diverted to hamas terror operations. >> so, simon, i mean , what are >> so, simon, i mean, what are the practical problems facing the practical problems facing the idf when it comes to trying to attack a terror organisation in a civilian population ? in a civilian population? >> well, they're huge . one >> well, they're huge. one always keeps coming back to clausewitz . this is politics by clausewitz. this is politics by other means . and so, as natasha other means. and so, as natasha said, in many commentators, of course, they are very conscious. the idf and the israeli government are very conscious that the news cycle runs fast. the battle of the narratives continues. but the record armament in fact almost the

imperative to crush hamas is really, you know, paramount in their in their security requirements. now but they're also very conscious that hamas will play the propaganda game, which they've done so successfully . often they'll successfully. often they'll continue to use gaza as human shields. they'll use mosques, they'll use hospitals . but they'll use hospitals. but equally, the israeli security forces will have to go. defence forces will have to go. defence forces will have to go in. they're going in at the moment, as we know, there's been a you know, what we call preparing the battle space, conditions battle space, shaping conditions . they're doing raids in there. they've clearly got a lot of an awful lot of surveillance above. they'll be using, of course , they'll be using, of course, bunker busters to try and destroy the destroy the tunnels , destroy the destroy the tunnels, take out the command network. we know they've taken out some of the top, top hamas commanders. but eventually they will have to go in. and at that stage, of course, we will find the awful collateral damage, let alone obviously, military obviously, straight military casualties. yes >> let's talk about collateral damage, natasha, because the sort of word on the street of

london yesterday as the marches for pro—palestine causes took to the streets , was that the streets, was that a ceasefire? has to happen? because at the end of the day, it simply isn't fair that ordinary men, women and children in gaza are the collateral damage of what the idf needs to do to defend israel from what happened on october the 7th. so what is it right at all to accuse the israelis of war crimes if women , children, crimes if women, children, babies get killed as collateral damage for israel defending itself? >> the only war crimes we have been seeing so far in gaza are those perpetrated by hamas and other palestinian terrorist organisations . let's not forget, organisations. let's not forget, it is not just hamas that crossed the border on the seventh. >> if the idf are killing people in pursuit of their defence of their own realm, then isn't that problem attic? as far as the israeli position is concerned, in accordance with the geneva convention, it's cetera. i mean, you that is you know that there is a civilian population there, and yet still you attacking gaza

yet still you are attacking gaza in defence of what happened on october the 7th. so there is dilemma. >> the calls that we have been seeing and the rallies in favour of hamas are perpetuating the suffering of the palestinians in gaza and preventing israel from exercising its lawful rights of self—defence . and we've heard self—defence. and we've heard from international lawyers also in the house of lords that this is what calls for a ceasefire amount to it is plain, and any international lawyer or military expert worth their salt has been clear that in every previous operation in gaza , israel has operation in gaza, israel has not only upheld the laws of armed conflict, but gone above the requirements . and when we the requirements. and when we compare with conflicts compare that with conflicts around global around the world, the global civilian to combatant ratio is a very disturbing nine civilians killed for every one combatant. those are statistics put out by the united nations. >> do you not believe the statistics that have been put out by hamas stroke the health authorities, stroke the palestinian authorities how palestinian authorities on how many are killed? many people are being killed? >> lot of matters to >> there are a lot of matters to unpack here. certainly the number the gaza number coming out of the gaza health ministry, which is hamas controlled, are not trustworthy

figures. there's no distinction being between combatants being made between combatants and if you were to and civilians. if you were to tell me that those were all combat terrorists that were killed , i think we would all be killed, i think we would all be congratulating the israeli defence of the defence forces. the fact of the matter is that the death tolls in the gaza strip are arising from hamas shooting, is fleeing civilians. we've we've had evidence of that. they're arising from palestinian islamic jihad and hamas rockets that are falling short in the gaza strip, indiscriminately killing civilians. we've had evidence of that. and they are directly the result of hamas use of human shields. these are the war crimes that we need to be talking about. but the allegations that being allegations that are being levied israel tone deaf levied at israel are tone deaf to the proportionality initiatives that the idf upholds . those include, of course, the warnings , text messages to warnings, text messages to individual householders , individual householders, leaflets being dropped, the knock on roof tactic that has been discussed at great lengths. those developments that israel has sought to achieve together with with requests for civilians

to flee to the south when they are being prohibited from doing so by hamas roadblocks and hamas bombing their own civilians. okay. that is what the world should be calling out. >> let's bring simon in now. just militarily, what can we learn from operations, say, in iraq how how does one deal iraq and how how does one deal with hamas when you've got these tunnels , hundreds of kilometres tunnels, hundreds of kilometres of tunnels under gaza? we've heard about the use perhaps of sponge bombs . what can you tell sponge bombs. what can you tell us about how we could perhaps even advise the israelis on how to tackle this? well there will be a lot of advice. >> you know, we've done a lot of what they call fibua fighting in built up areas, training. the americans the israelis americans have the israelis certainly have as you know, they built mini a mini built a sort of mini a mini urban environment with tunnels, with cellars , with high rise with cellars, with high rise that they've used to train on. none it will take away from none of it will take away from from the difficulty of this. but at end of the day, if they at the end of the day, if they are going to and are really going to try and establish a genuine security cordon, have to cordon, they're going to have to destroy tunnel network destroy that tunnel network which going to destroy that tunnel network whicito going to destroy that tunnel network whicito be going to destroy that tunnel network

whicito be dominate going to destroy that tunnel network whicito be dominate the|g to destroy that tunnel network whicito be dominate the ground have to be dominate the ground above in order to go below, presumably, some of it can be done that without done with bunker that without killing many bunker busters done with bunker that without killiido. many bunker busters done with bunker that without killiido. it many bunker busters done with bunker that without killiido. it takesy bunker busters done with bunker that without killiido. it takes a bunker busters done with bunker that without killiido. it takes a lot ker busters done with bunker that without killiido. it takes a lot of' busters done with bunker that without killiido. it takes a lot of high:ers will do. it takes a lot of high explosive penetrative bombs will do but ultimately, they do it. but ultimately, if they really to secure it, really want to secure it, they're going to have clear they're going to have to clear they're going to have to clear the ground above it in order to go the ground above it in order to 9° 9° the ground above it in order to go go below it. and again, as we know and back up natasha on go go below it. and again, as we kn0\one,1 back up natasha on go go below it. and again, as we kn0\one, you ack up natasha on go go below it. and again, as we kn0\one, you know, natasha on go go below it. and again, as we kn0\one, you know, there'sia on go go below it. and again, as we kn0\one, you know, there's no n this one, you know, there's no doubt about not just aid, but a lot of the complaints about electricity, still, electricity, hamas are still, funnily electricity to funnily enough, electricity to feed the ventilation systems in their tunnels . it's a very their tunnels. it's a very wicked problem . but i think what wicked problem. but i think what they will know , because they're they will know, because they're great students of military history is the complexity is the requirement to minimise civilian casualties wherever possible . casualties wherever possible. but but ultimately, if they're going to do this, what they can't do is another in out wait for hamas to regroup again. back you again . meanwhile, iran, you you again. meanwhile, iran, you know, there's a wider issue here. >> i mean, you must be worried about wider problems in the whole region right. >> i think one of the big issues

we've got is how much israel can guard its northern border while conducting in conducting its operations in gaza or another intifada in the west bank or the syrians making a go for the golan heights or iran encouraging hezbollah to launch its. so it's a really it's a it's a horrible tactical situation . yes. but it's part of situation. yes. but it's part of a much bigger security situation. >> natasha, i mentioned earlier , >> natasha, i mentioned earlier, you sort of went viral for your clarification of some of the points that were raised to you by a bbc journalist. did you incur a lot of hate after that? what's it like at the moment being a relatively high profile jew on the ainnaves and seeing the marches that we've seen on the marches that we've seen on the streets of london this week? >> well, actually, the flood of support from around the world has been utterly extraordinary. and i'm only not to be and i'm only sorry not to be able respond to the hundreds, able to respond to the hundreds, not thousands people have not thousands of people who have written say that that they written to say that that they know a great deal of what i'm saying true accurate . saying to be true and accurate. and that is reflected in reports also of the high level military

group in previous operations that israel to be that israel has had to be conducting in gaza. but that it's so rarely heard on the ainnaves. and that is something that i'm determined to challenge . so i take comfort and a great deal of strength from that support. i know that that reasonable , sensible people reasonable, sensible people understand as an exercise of common sense, not just international law, that israel's track record of protecting civilian life is unparalleled . i civilian life is unparalleled. i mentioned that 9 to 1 global ratio , the last israeli ratio, the last israeli operation in jenin in march of this year saw a combatant to civilian ratio of 0.6 to 1. it was a very different style of operation, but nought point 6 to 1 is unprecedented in international affairs , in armed international affairs, in armed conflict, and that is testament to the measures that israel takes to protect civilian life measures that it's continuing here. >> natasha, sir simon, thank you very much indeed for your expertise this morning. well we're going to be continuing this conversation because i'm

going joined by james going to be joined by james schneider, corbyn's schneider, who's jeremy corbyn's former chief, and justin former comms chief, and justin cohen, who's the news editor at the jewish news. he'll be debating should be debating whether we should be calling ceasefire in gaza. calling for a ceasefire in gaza. don't go anywhere. we'll be back in

this evening. gb news is the people's . channel well , come people's. channel well, come back to the camilla tominey show now. >> as promised, i'm joined by james schneider. he's the former comms chief for jeremy corbyn. and justin cohen, who's the news editor the news. editor at the jewish news. lovely both. this

lovely to see you both. this morning. start. should morning. let's start. should there a ceasefire? james there be a ceasefire? james >> absolutely. it has to be >> yes, absolutely. it has to be a and that's why the a ceasefire. and that's why the ovennhelming majority of people on earth, the ovennhelming majority of people in the uk and the us all support because the us all support it because it's plain common sense. you can see you don't respond to see that you don't respond to the killings of some one group of children with the mass mass killings of another group. >> has got a right to >> israel has got a right to defend itself a terror attack. >> you of israel an absolute >> you of israel has an absolute right to defend itself. it does not have an absolute right to indiscriminately kill children , indiscriminately kill children, to engage in indiscriminately killing children. justin crimes. but the fact is that if israel was to stop was to engage with the ceasefire at this point, it would be raising the white flag, it would be the international community accepting that israel doesn't right to defend doesn't have a right to defend itself against the ultimate acts of barbaric city. >> and it would be also a admission that that this kind of terrorism could be exported elsewhere in the world. that's that's what would happen if

israel was to raise a white flag at this point. >> i mean, isn't that a point? you know what could happen if there's a ceasefire? is hamas could regroup there. could just regroup there. terrorists, not really terrorists, they're not really to bargained or reasoned to be bargained or reasoned with, they then put down with, do they then put down their weapons? what's to stop them hamas want humanitarian them if hamas want humanitarian aid to come into gaza and indeed, for palestinian people to be safer, why don't they hand back the hostages? why don't they stop using people as human shields for the reason why you need to have a ceasefire? >> is there is no military solution to the dispossession of the palestinian people. this is not going to be resolved. what will happen if gaza is entirely flattened, if every single person that's even crossed the street near someone who's a hamas operative has been killed ? hamas operative has been killed? >> well, you're talking about flattening hamas. >> no, no, no. but it's not i'm sorry. it's not flattening hamas. if you have 8000 civilians who have died over 3000 children, a whole neighbourhoods completely flattened , that's not flattening

flattened, that's not flattening hamas. that is flattening the palestinian people. that is flattening people. that's flattening people. that's flattening children. okay you have hope. that's a good point. just lives who deserve to be alive. >> there's a big difference between what happened on the 7th of october and what's happening now. there seems to be, yes, there is. >> one is of a hugely tremendous larger scale the other. larger scale than the other. >> seems to be absolute >> there seems to be an absolute insistence like insistence from people like jeremy people jeremy corbyn and other people to draw a parallel between the two things. on october the 7th was the culmination of a ten month plan by hamas terrorists to go into people's homes to rape women , to behead children, rape women, to behead children, to do the most unspeakable crimes . and israel didn't want crimes. and israel didn't want that. crimes. and israel didn't want that . hamas, crimes. and israel didn't want that. hamas, israel is now responding to those acts to defend its citizens. it cannot have hamas on the border and risk this happening again. no government could could could allow that to be the case, sending its citizens. >> but do you suggest that >> but how do you suggest that it does defend its civil is not defending its citizens? how should do it if it doesn't do

should it do it if it doesn't do it like this? >> answer the hostages >> i'll answer the hostages are made in fact, they're made no safer. in fact, they're put at risk. is put far more at risk. which is why family members of some why some family members of some of hostages went to see of the hostages went to see prime minister netanyahu earlier this delay the this week asking to delay the ground because very ground offensive because very clearly, negotiation is the way to bring back the hostages . and to bring back the hostages. and for israeli security , for the for israeli security, for the security of people in israel . security of people in israel. the only solution, the only long term solution is to end the decades long dispossession of the palestinian people . gaza. the palestinian people. gaza. gaza has been now for 17 years. an open air prison. there has people have tried peaceful and i do not support armed. hold on. wait people have tried peaceful things . when, for example, march things. when, for example, march 2018, tens of thousands of palestinians in gaza marched peacefully, unarmed , to the peacefully, unarmed, to the border to protest against their them being in a prison camp. they were shot with snipers over to hold on over 200. bring justin armed protesters killed. these are over six describing

gaza as an open prison as david cameron did. >> justin, it depends how far back you want to take. >> you want to take this. but let's go back to 2005, for example, the disengaged from gaza, ripping out its own gaza, israel ripping out its own citizens out of their homes forcibly. remember covering forcibly. i remember covering the fallout from this on our front pages. it was extremely painful for a lot of a lot of israelis and a lot of jews. but it did it in order to have back a piece of land that it had been asked for a long time by the palestinians and by the international community to hand back it back. now back it, handed it back. and now look happened. we've had look what's happened. we've had decades attacks from decades of rocket attacks from that and now we've had that strip. and now we've had the launch the most barbaric attacks that this world has seen for decades. what what do you want to be done about hamas on the border of israel? that's that's that's the question. >> israel has continued to occupy gaza since 2005 under international law. the reason why israel can shut off food fuel , water, electricity ,

fuel, water, electricity, internet, phone lines is because it has a total blockade by land, by air and by sea of gaza . by air and by sea of gaza. >> that is why hamas firing rockets if it doesn't have any power . power. >> how do you mean? >> how do you mean? >> well , >> how do you mean? >> well, hamas >> how do you mean? >> well , hamas clearly has been >> well, hamas clearly has been stockpiling utilities right in the tunnels . so perhaps they the tunnels. so perhaps they have. but what's your explanation for why they aren't helping the people of palestine? hamas? is there, the government of this area and they are not helping the people of palestine because we understand that their stockpile supplies stockpile ing fuel and supplies these hamas for their own for their own terror attacks. >> israel has an extremely advanced extreme , effective advanced extreme, effective defence shield , the iron dome defence shield, the iron dome against hamas rockets , hamas against hamas rockets, hamas rockets. it has fired thousands of rockets in over the last 2—2 decades and i think 34 israeli have been killed by those rockets. now again , again, you rockets. now again, again, you know better you know better than threats from hamas rockets. is

does does not legitimise lies. the complete destruction of gaza, which is taking place now and the loss of thousands of children's lives. >> the intention of each and every one of those rockets is to kill civilians. yes, israel has indeed invested in the iron dome. hamas has invested in tunnels for decades. its leaders having a lovely time in doha at the moment, have billions of pounds there. is there ? there is pounds there. is there? there is no need for the palestinian people, for the people of gaza to be in the situation they're in. the reason they're in that situation because of hamas . situation is because of hamas. >> no, it isn't the >> i mean, no, it isn't the reason the people of gaza reason why the people of gaza are in the situation they're in is because they have been dispossessed and denied food by an occupying power for decades. thatis an occupying power for decades. that is the that is the reality. and now that power is killing children in a way which is utterly unjust , viable. utterly unjust, viable. >> can we bring it domestic for a moment? because obviously, we saw the palestine in peace marches yesterday in the streets of london. some say there

weren't peaceful elements. some say that some were using language which appeared to support not only the october the seventh a degree of seventh attack, but a degree of jew on the streets of jew hate on the streets of london. can we have a discussion about whether it is appropriate for to be saying from for protesters to be saying from the river to the sea, it's entirely appropriate . entirely appropriate. >> but hold on, please let me answer the elimination of israel. please let me answer . israel. please let me answer. it's appropriate . i'm it's entirely appropriate. i'm very proud that we had half a million people on the streets of london yesterday calling for a ceasefire that was what that protest was , was, was about. and protest was, was, was about. and it's probably the largest protest we've seen on the streets of london since those that opposed the iraq war in 2003. the ovennhelming majority of british people want to see a cease fire and they are raising their voice because that is the morally justified position . and morally justified position. and any attempts and there have been many , many attempts to many, many attempts to characterise these these basic human progressive protests as being anti—jewish. they're not

anti—jewish. i went on when i marched with the jewish is anti —jewish. >> when people anti—jewish. >> when people start protesting outside the sydney opera house and saying gas , the jews gas the and saying gas, the jews gas the jews, it is anti—semitic. when people start wearing pictures of paragliders on the back their paragliders on the back of their jackets . jackets. >> us people, of course, shouldn't gas jews. shouldn't say gas to jews. that's unbelievably offensive. but suggest that half a but to suggest that half a million calling for million people calling for dignity and life for children are somehow being anti—semitic, let's see what justin vile slur and is completely false. >> so justin , from the river to >> so justin, from the river to the sea, let's start on an element of agreement . element of agreement. >> i would i would almost certainly imagine that not every protest on the streets of london yesterday was anti—semitic or pro—hamas. and i every time i've heard suggestions that they are from members of my own community or from other people, i have i have rebutted those with every sinew i have. but when you have people out on the streets singing for singing for singing for jihad, singing for another , and worse, another intifada, and worse, calling , repeating old chants, calling, repeating old chants,

recalling battles between muslims and jews in which jews have been slaughtered, that that is not that is that is anti—semitic. that is not helping the palestinian cause. and that action has to be taken by the police and the government. and before next saturday, because that that doesn't just that affects people on the streets. >> british cracking down on some of these rogue elements because as you say, they're giving peaceful marchers a really bad name. >> so my largest priority is to have the biggest possible expression of public support for a ceasefire because our government has a role in this conflict. we support israel diplomatic. we give it weapons. thatis diplomatic. we give it weapons. that is the absolute priority. of course, there are some some fringe. >> keir starmer needs to pivot to his position finally. >> but of course he does. but of course there are always fringe elements some things elements in some things and there are some idiots who will be idiotic. let's clear be idiotic. but let's be clear the the ovennhelming the majority, the ovennhelming majority people majority of the british people want and they're want a ceasefire and they're right to do so. >> schneider, the figures >> james schneider, the figures come from james actually, yougov poll that's poll ten days ago. well, that's

that's latest figure. that's not the latest figure. and the figure and the see the latest figure i'm sure higher. i'm sure it's higher. >> the fact is that keir starmer is a final point. justin, in that point keir that final point quickly, keir starmer lot of starmer is absorbing a lot of pressure what he's doing. pressure to do what he's doing. >> can you imagine what would happenif >> can you imagine what would happen if your former boss had been power now? been in power now? >> would much better? >> what would be much better? >> what would be much better? >> wouldn't. no, it >> no, it wouldn't. no, it wouldn't. a british, wouldn't. as a british, as a british, jewish, and british, jewish, hamas and hezbollah friends, hezbollah aren't friends, though, are they, james? >> wouldn't say no, >> no, i wouldn't say no, indeed. right, justin james, indeed. all right, justin james, thank indeed for thank you very much indeed for joining morning. joining me this morning. up next, howard longest next, is john howard the longest second longest serving prime minister i'll be minister of australia? i'll be getting on everything minister of australia? i'll be getti|the on everything minister of australia? i'll be getti|the war on everything minister of australia? i'll be getti|the war in on everything minister of australia? i'll be getti|the war in israelverything minister of australia? i'll be getti|the war in israel to ything from the war in israel to whether thinks sunak is whether he thinks rishi sunak is doing good job as prime doing a good job as prime minister. don't anywhere. minister. don't go anywhere. >> morning. name is >> good morning. my name is rachel welcome to your rachel ayers and welcome to your latest weather forecast latest gb news weather forecast brought the met brought to you by the met office. so the first half of the weekend was fairly unsettled, but will sunday but what will sunday bring? well, rain now well, last night's rain is now across northern england and scotland, fairly scotland, bringing some fairly heavy and persistent rain here for much of the day. elsewhere, it's of sunshine and it's a mixture of sunshine and showers and these will be most frequent and heaviest across southern coasts .

southern and western coasts. it's the central slice of the uk that's going to see the driest and brightest weather and feeling pretty pleasant in any sunny here away from the sunny spells here away from the strong winds across the north and south coast. as we go and south coast. so as we go through tonight, that rain is going to continue across eastern parts of scotland. shower showers continuing elsewhere as well , but still a few clear well, but still a few clear spells in especially in the east. and this is where we're going to see some of the lowest temperatures as we go through tonight. and to the start of the new working week. but still not expecting a frost around for monday so through expecting a frost around for monday then so through expecting a frost around for monday then it's so through expecting a frost around for monday then it's another|gh expecting a frost around for monday then it's another day of monday, then it's another day of sunshine and showers . for many, sunshine and showers. for many, though, we will start to see those showers easing a little, though, along the south coast as we go through the day. rain continuing still, though, across eastern parts of scotland there becoming slightly more patchy in nature . and those winds now nature. and those winds now coming from the north across scotland. so feeling slightly cooler here. still clinging on to something slightly warmer across the south, though .

across the south, though. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now i'm delighted to be joined by john howard. he served as liberal prime served as liberal party prime minister australia from 1996 minister of australia from 1996 to two thousand and seven. he's the longest serving the second longest serving australian prime minister in history. john lovely to see you. you were over for this conference, which we're going to be speaking about, freedom of speech and also defence of the achievements of western civilisation. well, we should champion them, shouldn't they, rather than denigrate always champion success? indeed. so. well, talking of success, you had a lot of success with your gun laws over in australia. we've seen this horrific situation in maine. the gunman has been found dead this morning, but at the same time, again, gun laws in america costing countless lives on sophia clamped down on this. and my understanding is you haven't had a mass shooting since. what could the us learn from the australians? >> well, certainly our clamp down, which happened just after

i became prime minister and there was a mass shooting, 35 people killed by one madman in a remote area of tasmania and we did something and it had widespread community support, although it did cause a lot of opposite action in certain rural areas because farmers legitimately had weapons as part of their daily work. legitimately had weapons as part of their daily work . it's easy of their daily work. it's easy from a distance to say the americans should do this , that americans should do this, that and the other. the history of that country is different. we didn't fight the british with arms to get our independence. they happy to give it us they were happy to give it to us and there's different culture. and there's a different culture. but that having been said, i live in hope that our american friends will do something , but friends will do something, but it will require enormous personal courage from an american president. >> indeed. so we were speaking just earlier. i don't know if you caught that debate, but i was talking about that horrific incident outside the sydney opera house where some protesters were calling for jews

to gassed in the aftermath of to be gassed in the aftermath of the october the 7th attack. we've seen hundreds of thousands of people marching palestine of people marching for palestine on streets of london at the on the streets of london at the weekend and there has been a suggestion, not least by our own home secretary suella braverman , home secretary suella braverman, that multiculturalism has failed in the western world. do you agree with that analysis? >> well, separately from this issue, i have my doubts about multiculturalism . i believe that multiculturalism. i believe that when you migrate to another country, you should, as far as reasonably be expected to absorb the mainstream culture of that country . sure, return , retain country. sure, return, retain your affection for greece or italy or or wherever you may have come from . and we've been have come from. and we've been very successful. i mean , i very successful. i mean, i constantly meet people whose ancestors came to australia from from greece and italy and germany and the baltic countries immediately after , or more immediately after, or more recently from china and india, the most widely spoken foreign

language in australia now is chinese . yes, there are 1.4 chinese. yes, there are 1.4 million australians of chinese heritage. now that all works well, it largely works well. i think because people are attracted to the founder . asian attracted to the founder. asian mainstream culture of australia , mainstream culture of australia, which is open and tolerant, but also very proud of what our country has achieved. and i think if we put more emphasis is on what our nation has achieved and what the western world has achieved and were less apologetic and less inclined to say, oh, we're all to blame for the better, we would be. >> has the recent rise in anti—semitism not just in the uk but also in australia, surprised you? john it australia? >> i don't find had a lot of anti—semitism. i really don't. and i mean the jewish community is small but very proudly australian and some of our greatest historical figures without any doubt our greatest.

>> but you will have seen reports in the uk of the chanting of from the river to the sea. oh look, we've had some some absolutely unacceptable mean that demonstration outside the sydney opera house was shameful. >> i mean, people saying gaffes. the jews now that was a deliberate invocation of the of the holocaust, which was the most foul deed in human history. 6 million people gassed to death because they were jewish. now, thatis because they were jewish. now, that is something that we should all be offended by. but having said all of that, i don't think the average australian is anti—semitic. and i think there are some anti—semitic , as there are some anti—semitic, as there are some anti—semitic, as there are some anti—semitic, as there are some who years ago were anti—catholic or anti protestant . i mean, it was just. buti anti—catholic or anti protestant . i mean, it was just. but i do think that this late us operation in the middle east has brought out the double standard . brought out the double standard. that's for a lot of the people of got to understand that the only way you will get lasting settlement in the middle east is for there to be a full

acceptance of israel's right to exist behind secure, defensible boundaries. now, until all the entire arab world does that, it's going to be very difficult, in my opinion, to see a lasting settlement. >> what was your reaction to the un secretary general, antonio guterres response to this conflict ? he guterres response to this conflict? he seemed to be taking sides . sides. >> well, i don't think he contributed anything thing. i mean, in the long run, the only basis of a proper settlement is to have a genuine two state solution . solution. >> yeah, but how is that possible? >> well well, it's not going to be possible just by the secretary—general of the united nafions secretary—general of the united nations calling for it or calling for a ceasefire. we'd all love a ceasefire. yeah, we'd all love a ceasefire. yeah, we'd all love a ceasefire. yeah, we'd all love violence to stop tomorrow. but that's not going tomorrow. but that's not going to happen at and the latest element in this long running saga was the terrible attack by

hamas on the 7th of october. now that happened not withstanding the desire of a lot of peaceful palestinians , a lot of peaceful palestinians, a lot of peaceful israelis to live together in harmony and until the reasons for that are rooted out and destroyed , it's going to happen again. >> is the un fit for purpose, do you think ? you think? >> well, i don't think it is fit for purpose. but having said that, i think some of its agencies do good work . i think agencies do good work. i think unicef does good work. i think the high commission for refugees does good work. but i think does some good work. but i think it's sort of plenary ministers , it's sort of plenary ministers, if i can call it that often fall well short of the mark. >> if you were still pm, what would you be saying to netanyahu right now? well i would be expressing the strong , expressing the strong, unqualified support of the australian people for the right of israel to respond with effective military force for

what has been a heinous attack on its people . let's move over on its people. let's move over to matters in australia. i was interested by all of the coverage of the no vote when it came to the aboriginal voice debate. was it important that the no vote won ? the no vote won? >> well, i thought it was the right outcome. it was a very strong vote. i think it largely happened because deep down australians reckoned wise that we have a pretty stable, happy success, cohesive country and when somebody comes along long without explanation , then without explanation, then without explanation, then without any strong argument and says, we want to alter the foundation document, we say to ourselves, hang on, what's he up to? yes. what's this mean? there is in the australian nature, what i call a deep celtic scepticism . we don't like people scepticism. we don't like people coming along and saying, i'll do this and the world will be beautiful tomorrow. we our reaction is what's he want?

what's he up to? we don't like this. and i think seriously that lay behind. yeah part of this very strong and it was a convincing vote for no. >> do you think that has a positive knock on effect when it comes to pro—monarchy sympathies? >> oh, look, i don't think there'll be a vote on the monarchy for years. yeah, i mean, there was one. >> there's a minister for the repubuc >> there's a minister for the republic now that. well, can pension him off at a very early age. >> really? i think so. how would you judge the king's first year on the throne to have been. >> oh, look, i wish to be in any way patronised. >> i think he's done a wonderful job. but it's the system of government . and as much as the government. and as much as the person of the monarch that matters and i think we have seen in recent weeks and months, indeed some of the difficulties indeed some of the difficulties in the united states of an alternative to the parliamentary system . and that's not to say system. and that's not to say you can't have a parliamentary system with out a monarch. i

have to acknowledge that intellectually. but i think the whole package comes together rather well. and i think the attitude of many australians is, gee, if it ain't broke, don't fix it now. >> give us some advice to rishi sunak the tories are in a bit of a pickle. they're 20 points behind pressure on the chancellor, jeremy hunt, cut chancellor, jeremy hunt, to cut taxes in the autumn statement . taxes in the autumn statement. what advice would john howard give this duo? >> well, look, i i'm not falling for that. i've only met rhiannon. no, i've only met rishi once or twice . but i think rishi once or twice. but i think he's, you know, he's obviously faces a huge struggle. he knows that he's a long way behind in the polls . and the conservatives the polls. and the conservatives have been in power for a long time and they've been through a few prime ministers recently. that's right. >> can pull round ? beg >> can he pull it round? beg pardon? pull around? pardon? can he pull it around? well anything's possible . well anything's possible. >> i mean, one of the things you've to learn about modern you've got to learn about modern politics is that it's a lot more fluid . when was first involved fluid. when i was first involved in politics and i think it was true in britain as it was in

australia, you had a sort of 40, 40, 20 rule, 40% always voted for the labour party, for the socialists, the centre—left, whatever them, and 40% whatever you call them, and 40% always for our side of always voted for our side of politics, which of course in australia has caused the liberals a bit different. but liberals a bit different. but liberal here and 20% moved around. now think it's more around. i now think it's more like 30, 30, 40 and i think you've got a far more fluid situation. so he may look to be a long way behind. he is a long way behind. he knows that. but he's doing things. he's responding . and you're probably responding. and you're probably agree he has to stop the boats. >> does he need to cut tax in the autumn? >> look, that is entirely a matter for his judgement. >> but is it politically expedient to offer that people always like paying less tax? >> yes . but strangely enough, >> yes. but strangely enough, they like to have plenty of government yes and the government services. yes and the art of government is putting those two things into balance. so you would say to the chancellor, what make it a bit more red bloodedly, right? i would i would say something to him privately and publicly. i would respect the difficult job

that he has, just as when i was tony blair's opposite number, i was , in fact the only australian was, in fact the only australian prime minister that tony blair ever dealt with, or they were on different. >> one final word, john. who would you like to see get the republican nomination, trump or someone else? >> i couldn't vote for trump if i were an american. no. >> so somebody else? no. >> so somebody else? no. >> somebody else because he wouldn't leave the field when he was given out. indeed. >> so, john howard, thank you very indeed for joining me very much indeed forjoining me this morning. >> going back next >> i'm going to be back next week of course. up next week at 930, of course. up next is michael portillo, going is michael portillo, who's going to all sorts of to be discussing all sorts of very interesting

good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo with the clocks set back. join me on this autumnal morning as we stroll protected from the falling leaves by a canopy of arts culture. good debate and conversation turn to politics first. has the devastating conflict in the middle east affected the fortunes of sir keir starmer? the labour leader is facing his most concerted internal challenge yet over his response to the war between israel and hamas and is now facing serious pressure to call for a ceasefire. separately as another member of parliament is accused of sexual misconduct.