houn hour. now, this is dinosaur hour. now, this is a new show aimed at an enormous demographic , the out—of—touch demographic, the out—of—touch but not the out—of—touch, who have chosen to stay out of touch and the out—of—touch who don't even know that they are. so if you're looking for photographs of reality stars, breakfasts or details of the latest trans person's bicycle accident, or for a fun story about an old woman who hasn't sneezed for 70 years, this is not the show for you. it's just a lot of very doddery old fools making it up as we go along. however for the good news is there'll be lots of

cats now i want to show you something thing. there's an organisation called the european broadcast union, and every year they ask 1000 people in each european country about whether they trust the printed press in that country . so let's look at some country. so let's look at some of the recent results. here's 2009 most trusted luxembourg, portugal, czech republic , portugal, czech republic, netherlands, austria. so for i'm down here, we're getting to poland and north macedonia , to poland and north macedonia, to latvia, and then right at the bottom here last night. and by all means least the united

kingdom. let's see, 2010 now. here we go again , netherlands, here we go again, netherlands, austria and all that. and down here at the bottom in last place, united kingdom, the rest of 2011. now we're still down at the bottom in 2011, lowest degree of trust in printed media in europe. united kingdom 2012. please oh, we've gone up one. we've got above greece. oh, that's terrific . fleet street's that's terrific. fleet street's heart must be swelling with pride. 2013 oh oh. we're down again . 2014 2015 , 2016. oh, come again. 2014 2015, 2016. oh, come on. 2017, 2018, 2000. look look, we're above . we're above. >> we're above north macedonia and greece . and greece. >> oh, makes you proud to be

english. let's see. 2019 when? >> oh . not very good, really. >> oh. not very good, really. >> oh. not very good, really. >> isn't it ? >> oh. not very good, really. >> isn't it? so why is trust so low in british newspapers ? i low in british newspapers? i think we need an expert. and fortunately we've got one. he's a professor of communications at the university of westminster, and he's steve barnett. and he's actually rather nice . actually rather nice. >> are you got a it you like it? i'm going to i'm to going hand the kitty over to you. >> you you can be you can be the kitty . you're the bond villain. kitty. you're the bond villain. now, tell me, steve, why why is trust so low in printed media? i think there are essentially two reasons. the first is that we have long had a tradition in the uk that our broadcast journalism are bound by rules of accuracy and impartiality. our broadcast. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> so if you're if you're

working in broadcasting, you know that there are rules that you've got to tell the truth or you've got to tell the truth or you've got to back it up with facts, but also you've got to give both sides of the argument . give both sides of the argument. whereas at press for whereas at the press for generations, you can essentially say what you want. now, there's nothing wrong with being opinionated as long as people are aware that there is a difference between the news pages where you expect to see facts and the opinion pages where people can sound off and say anything they want . but where people can sound off and say anything they want. but i think other reason . thank think the other reason. thank you. reason is the you. the other reason is the complete lack of any genuine regulation in the press. so in broadcast journalism, you know that if you get it wrong , badly that if you get it wrong, badly wrong and if you start sounding off with your opinions, people will complain to ofcom, which is the regulator for broadcasting . the regulator for broadcasting. ofcom has teeth. it was set up by statute and it will deliver on complaints that are genuine and have merit. >> now it's had a lot of criticism recently . criticism recently. >> ofcom it's had some criticism, not least i have to

say, in terms of what it's not doing with gb news free speech. we'll pass that one. we'll pass that one. so that's true . and it that one. so that's true. and it is under pressure because there are new broadcast stations which do appear to be very opinionated . and but that's a new issue for the press. we're talking about decades of people simply not having anywhere to go if they want to make a complaint, a genuine complaint. there is a real problem or there's a real abuse of editorial standards. and that's suing is not really an option. that's the other thing. if the newspaper tells blatant lies about you. yes if you've got the money, you can go to court. but how many people have actually got enough cash behind them? it costs a lot of money. do you know how many press inquiries we've had in the last 75 years? >> going to guess it's. it's seven. >> i knew you'd know the answer. absolutely right. so seven separate inquires carries into the behaviour of the press. each

one on the back of abuses of editorial standards is each time coming up with very sensible, moderate recommendations for how things might change. and every single time the government of the day has run a million miles away because they're afraid , away because they're afraid, they're frightened. and that's why you had tony blair in the 1990s flying to the other side of the world to meet rupert. >> first thing he did when he became pm. >> yeah, no, no. when he became opposition leader. oh as opposition leader. oh as opposition in the 95, 96, opposition leader in the 95, 96, he flew to the other side of the world to speak at rupert murdoch's conference because he wanted to make sure that rupert was on side. david cameron became opposition leader , goes became opposition leader, goes and meets rupert murdoch on a yacht somewhere in greece . yeah. yacht somewhere in greece. yeah. and that is what they they their belief that their conviction is that these are the people, the powerbrokers without whom they will not get into power . so they

will not get into power. so they run a mile in the other direction . direction. >> so is there any chance that we're going to reverse this? i mean, are the eighth attempt the government going to be any less frightened? well, if we go back to the seventh attempt, which was leveson and the stories some of the stories that we heard, which were truly appalling , we which were truly appalling, we think of phone hacking. >> wasn't the >> phone hacking wasn't even the half it. he publishes his half of it. so he publishes his recommendations very moderate. it's just a sort of a regulator thatis it's just a sort of a regulator that is being sort of supervised , that is sort of someone's looking over its shoulder to make sure it's doing the job. no interfere in free speech or the press or anything like that. and parliament passes the first stage. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> and then the government gets frightened and cameron, obviously, as conversations with editors and he stands up in parliament and says , we're not parliament and says, we're not going to complete this. >> yes , that's right. >> yes, that's right. >> yes, that's right. >> it's the same story over and over so coming back to over again. so coming back to your is anything your question, is anything ever going yeah i actually going to happen? yeah i actually think we're getting to the think that we're getting to the point now and we've got three

lots of phone hacking litigate still going on. we've got more stuff coming out and more stuff that's going to come out, not just the sun, but the mail, the mirror. and i think people are beginning to realise that this is some of this is burglary. yeah, absolutely. the burglary allegations, which i certainly believe are burglary , where believe are burglary, where they're paying people to believe are burglary, where they're paying people to break into people's houses and cars to steal documents, and also to put microphones. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> and so forget about phone hacking. we're talking about bugging live conversations , bugging live conversations, phones. we're talking about putting bugs in cars. yeah. so that you can follow them and listen to what's being said. as you say, commissioning , you say, commissioning, burglary, commissioning pies , burglary, commissioning pies, private investigators to follow people . all of this is people. all of this is incredibly intrusive. i think we're reaching the point. particularly there is a sort of shift in the political environment now. i think there's going to be a change of government over the next two years. the real question is whether a new government,

years. the real question is whether a new government , which whether a new government, which is going to be certainly somewhere to the left of the current one under starmer or whoever is finally prepared to do something, or whether they are still so frightened that they're going to say, no, we're to going leave things as they are. >> so tell me finally, lee, why doesit >> so tell me finally, lee, why does it matter so much ? does it matter so much? >> i think that's really important because some people will look at this and go, it's journalism. i mean, you know, so what you know, if you're an architect and you break the rules, then your building falls down and somebody might die. that's important . this that's important. this is just journalism and there are two reasons. first of all, because we actually rely on people telling us the truth for a for democracy to work . but i think democracy to work. but i think there's actually a much more important reason, which is that these people ruin other people's lives. oh, it's as much about clicks on social media and on the internet as it is about what's in the newspaper. >> well, i'm going to talk to someone whose life was ruined

and then i'm going to be back to talk some more to you . talk some more to you. >> i'll look fonnard to it. >> i'll look fonnard to it. >> i'll look fonnard to it. >> i'll get you a cat. i think most people assume that the majority of people worked over by the press are celebrities, not true. the majority of the people worked over by the press. are not celebrities . and i have are not celebrities. and i have here with me now someone whose business was ruined by the british press , daniel hinckley . british press, daniel hinckley. now, you had a nail salon. is that the right? >> yeah, i do a lot of different treatments in hair, nails, beauty , a little bit of beauty, a little bit of aesthetics and semi—permanent makeup. >> tell me the story . >> tell me the story. >> tell me the story. >> um, so the back end of 2017, when , um, i had a journalist when, um, i had a journalist come into my home with a hidden camera pretending to be a client , and she was asking strange questions that clients don't ask

like it was only the next day after where i couldn't stop thinking about this woman that had been in my house just because i knew she wasn't a client. she'd text me from a phone number to book it, so i googled her phone number and it came up straight away . charlotte came up straight away. charlotte wales daily mail reporter oh, and yeah , so first of all, and yeah, so first of all, i contacted the police because i thought she'd been in my home. i by this point i didn'tjust check who she was. i looked at some of her other articles that she'd done and she'd done some other questionable articles in, in the beauty industry. then i started looking at some of the articles and there were photos on the articles that you could tell were screenshots from hidden cameras. and i remember when she was in my house, she kept shuffling about and her body language was really strange and just suddenly dawned on and it just suddenly dawned on me. i thought, you've had a hidden in my house. so hidden camera in my house. so first of all, i contacted the police and i said, look, i've had a journalist in my home and

she had hidden camera in she had a hidden camera on in my house. son one point came house. my son at one point came downstairs into my work in downstairs into my work room in his undennear because he'd just got shower. so i was got out the shower. so i was like, listen, i'm not happy for somebody child. and somebody to film my child. and the police would basically like, listen, journalists can do what they like we can't we they want. like we can't we don't have any way of dealing with them. once they printed the article, my business was done. >> so what happened? they printed the article and it said what they said that, um , i what they said that, um, i disfigured a client, which is untrue . untrue. >> they said that i was not qualified , that i wasn't qualified, that i wasn't insured, that i wasn't licenced um, and basically just they basically called me a rogue beautician in a cowboy cosmetic . beautician in a cowboy cosmetic. they made people scared to come to me and they made me out to be a criminal. it was a double page spread . it had photos of me. it spread. it had photos of me. it told them the village that i lived in. so everyone in the village was calling me scum . oh village was calling me scum. oh yeah. like like. like my

neighbours were shouting scum at me and stuff because i live in a really nice little village and they were, oh my god, they were trolling me like you wouldn't believe you'd thought i'd killed somebody the way they were trolling me every beautician, i think in england that ever sort of thought i was some sort of competition will loving it. i had customers that had come to me for years and it's affected some of my family relationships now forever. you know , i don't now forever. you know, i don't have any relationship with my mother or my siblings and that ultimately is because of that article and because people believe what they read. if i hadn't have proved in the way that i did, if i hadn't have gone through it. so and then if i hadn't have then gone a step further and you know, taken a libel case to the mail won , and libel case to the mail won, and i don't think my business would have recovered . and if i'm being

have recovered. and if i'm being completely honest, i don't think i would be here now either . i would be here now either. yeah, i so tell me about the libel case. um so when once the ipso had upheld my upheld my complaint , ipso had upheld my upheld my complaint, which they didn't do a good job, but they upheld the most important bit, they did uphold it. >> yeah . >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i was one of the less than 1% that they upheld, but they didn't have a choice. john, i emailed them every single day for eight months and i told them how bad it was affecting my health. i told them that i was suicidal and i made it very clear that i wasn't going to go away until they made them print the truth. and then when they upheld the complaint, they said the mail had to print a correction on page two of the mail on sunday. page two. >> yeah, come on. >> yeah, come on. >> it wasn't printed on page two. no they had a more important story about harry and meghan. apparently what they printed about me initially was a double page spread and the

correction is this little sentence. the tiny sentence. i couldn't even find it. my friend found it and she was like, oh, they have prints. i've found it. nobody could find it. it was a joke . hilarious. and also nobody joke. hilarious. and also nobody was talking about that when i was talking about that when i was , you know, putting all over was, you know, putting all over social media. yeah, they've printed a correction . nobody printed a correction. nobody gave a when you sat down, you said, you know , the paper ruined said, you know, the paper ruined your business. the paper ruined my mental health. my business will survive because i'm very good at my job. my business came back and my business is okay. what they did to my mental health was unforgivable , and my health was unforgivable, and my son nearly ended up without a mother because of that . because mother because of that. because i didn't leave my bedroom for months . it's like when it was months. it's like when it was before i even had when it was all ongoing. i think this was just when i was dealing with ipso . i just when i was dealing with ipso. i did not just when i was dealing with ipso . i did not leave my ipso. i did not leave my bedroom. i didn't shower, i didn't brush my teeth , i didn't didn't brush my teeth, i didn't

eat. i was living on cups of tea cups of tea that my child was making for me. cups of tea that my child was making for me . yeah, i cost them making for me. yeah, i cost them a lot of money. i did. but no matter how much money they had to spend on their legal fees, my legal fees and my compensate nation, it was never going to be enough to make what they did to me and my son. okay? it'll never be okay. and that's why i still do things like this, where i do speak about it because there's a lot of people this this because the way media laws set up , it's the way media laws set up, it's not set up to help people like me. now, my case cost hundreds of thousands in legal fees. i didn't have that money to do that. didn't have that money to do that . i was just fortunate that. i was just fortunate enough that i came across a lawyer who basically was my hero , hacked off, put me in touch with him. he's called jonathan code. he asked me what happened and i told him and he said there's not really any such thing. there's no win, no fee in media law, he said. but i'm

going to do something for you . going to do something for you. he said, i'm going to take on your case and going to help your case and i'm going to help your case and i'm going to help you . i said, listen, you. i said, listen, i've researched you and i know that you deal with royal family you deal celebrities, you don't deal with celebrities, you don't need my case. why have you taken my case on and he said, because i'm a devout christian and you need me . and i thought, wow , need me. and i thought, wow, because i used to go to bed every night during this period . every night during this period. and i'm not religious , but i and i'm not religious, but i went to bed every night and i got on my knees and i begged god and i prayed. and i said , you and i prayed. and i said, you need to send somebody to help me because i didn't know what to do i >> and, um, so then when he said that to me, i thought, oh, my god, i might have to start going to church , serve some, some to church, serve some, some decent people around, even if they're not fleet street editors. >> yeah . danielle, i just want >> yeah. danielle, i just want to thank you for telling us this. it's very touching . thank this. it's very touching. thank

you. and thank jonathan code, too. yeah, absolutely . thanks. too. yeah, absolutely. thanks. >> thank you . >> thank you. >> thank you. >> well, i'm going to ask kirsty barnet what he makes of all that . so steve, how did you react to that ? that? >> well, i've seen danielle tell her story a couple of times and ihave her story a couple of times and i have to say every single time it gets me, i mean, first of all, the courage of the woman. yeah. to go through what she went to and then be able to tell it the way she tells it. but i think it's important remember think it's important to remember that for every danielle, there'll ten, 15, 20 others there'll be ten, 15, 20 others who have the courage, the who don't have the courage, the bravery , who would just give in bravery, who would just give in when they're told you don't sue the mail. they don't. whereas, you know, danielle being the sort of person she is, she takes that as a challenge. and i'm delighted that hacked off were able to help and that jonathan was able to help and she got the justice she deserved. but she

should not have had to go through that for the sake of a story . it's pure bullying . story. it's pure bullying. >> so given that the last seven attempts to reform the press have collapsed just because the government was frightened of the press, do you see any anything optimistic ? optimistic? >> i'm an optimist by nature. so that's not the question i and i do think that that actually times are changing. and i do think that with a change of government , that when people government, that when people look at the detail of the cases that are coming out now, the hacking , the spies, the hacking, the spies, the burglary, the phone tapping, etcetera, they will go they'll say enough is enough . say enough is enough. >> amen to that . >> amen to that. >> amen to that. >> we will see. >> we will see. >> thank you, steve. thank you very, very much . all right . very, very much. all right. i

know . chris chris, what chris know. chris chris, what chris tarrant. tarrant. yes. what are you doing here? >> well, i'm playing strip poker with these three away .

stage or the dinosaur are with me. >> john cleese on . gb news now, >> john cleese on. gb news now, there haven't been many people doing anything much about this awful press of ours. but one group that i very much admire is called hacked off and the lady who sort of runs it is jackie hames. i know you don't really run it, but it's much more interesting if i say, jackie, thank you for coming. tell me about hacked off. >> you're very welcome , john. >> you're very welcome, john. >> you're very welcome, john. >> it's lovely to meet you . >> it's lovely to meet you. >> it's lovely to meet you. >> um, hacked off. >> um, hacked off. >> we don't have to be polite . >> we don't have to be polite. you can be really rude to me. it's much more fun. >> we'll come on to that later , >> we'll come on to that later, okay? no, it's hacked came. okay? no, it's hacked off. came.

really out of all the really was born out of all the revelation that appeared in after the hacking of the murdered schoolgirl milly dowler's phone. >> so what year was that? >> so what year was that? >> so what year was that? >> so that would have been 2011. 11. a group of people sort of. thank you so much , paid no thank you so much, paid no attention , got together and attention, got together and thought , attention, got together and thought, i mean, i wasn't involved then, but got together and thought, enough's enough . and thought, enough's enough. the people, you know, people who were really involved in this area, the sense of regulation and press and that type of thing and press and that type of thing and news. and they felt that they'd had enough and they felt there should be a public inquiry. >> you know, the rules lationship between the press and the public, the press and the police and the press and the politicians . politicians. >> all right. so how did you get into hacked off? >> well, i was , you know, worked >> well, i was, you know, worked as well as being a police officer. i worked on a tv programme crimewatch for programme called crimewatch for 16 years, six, 16 years. 16. >> yes . >> yes. >> yes. >> yeah, 16 years. i figure out

how old you are . how old you are. >> i'm. i'll make up a figure later. >> don't worry. >> don't worry. >> i'm 83, so . >> i'm 83, so. >> i'm 83, so. >> yeah. and as a result, has slightly public profile. but actually it wasn't really because of that. my husband was investigating a murder for which of a private investigator called daniel morgan. and he was murdered and he was investigating that one. yeah. and as a result of being on that inquiry , we it was discovered inquiry, we it was discovered that we as a family would be under some sort of threat of them trying to influence the way he conducted that murder inquiry . and we were put under the umbrella of the witness protection scheme and it was all very difficult. but at one point we were put under surveillance thinking it was the people responsible for this axe murder . responsible for this axe murder. but when they were stopped , it but when they were stopped, it turned out they were paid for and employed by news of the

world. and it turned out that they'd hacked our phones. they were putting us under surveillance . yes. and oh, surveillance. yes. and oh, i was. you know, it is really like being in the matrix film. you feel like you've entered an alternate universe and suddenly everything is looking really different and you're seeing things from a completely different perspective. so when i was asked by hacked off to come and sign this petition for a pubuc and sign this petition for a public inquiry, at that point i said yes, i think we really need to start to uncover what actually happened. >> but what do you do ? >> but what do you do? >> but what do you do? >> well, there's several aspects to what we do. >> one is talking to politicians , runs and lobbying and bringing a different perspective to the information persuade to persuade gentle persuasion of an ideas as to how this problem can be solved . but we also do advocacy solved. but we also do advocacy for victims, people like me, ordinary people and people in the public eye who are really

struggling to get any sort of justice. >> that's what i'm interested in is what's this regulatory body ? is what's this regulatory body? i mean, it's called ipso and it replaced the press complaints , replaced the press complaints, something or other complaints commission commission that's right. and that was dismay mantled after leveson and replaced by ipso. when i say replaced by ipso. when i say replaced . but tell us about ipso. >> well, it was basically the same organisation . same organisation. >> they just literally the same building and they changed the same officers sign over the door effectively it's mean . effectively it's mean. >> you wouldn't you couldn't write this as my comedic friends say , they just changed the name say, they just changed the name on the door. they kept the same officers. >> that's what it kind of felt like to the rest of us. >> and then the newspapers pay for this body that's supposed to regulate them, and they write their editors code , which is their editors code, which is supposed to be a framework for,

you know , their ethical conduct. you know, their ethical conduct. >> and that code is laid down by ten editors and three laypersons, right? >> so that's what it gives the press a little bit of an advance . yeah, exactly. and these guys who decide whether it's a legitimate complaint against the press are paid for by the press. yes it's a python sketch smoking their own homework. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes , i like that. free oh, >> yes, i like that. free oh, what a joke. hey, frustrate eating. >> i mean, you have to laugh because it is so ridiculous. but say something to cheer me up. say something to cheer you up. we're here fighting john. we're not going to give up. we've been here years and we here for 11 years and we absolutely not going to give absolutely are not going to give up now. >> off, ladies and >> hacked off, ladies and gentlemen, all gentlemen, look it up. all right. you . years ago, i right. thank you. years ago, i used to read about hacking, but i never actually knew what it was until this year. hacked me.

ha ha ha ha. you naughty, naughty man . naughty man. >> yeah, but i would have never met you if i hadn't hacked you . met you if i hadn't hacked you. >> oh, that's true. >> oh, that's true. >> yeah , that's very true. >> yeah, that's very true. anyway, you've come over from the dark side, so you're most welcome. oh tell me the hacking that you were involved in. in my case, i had worked locally as a private investigator for . private investigator for. >> started out working for rupert murdoch for a show, a current affair , and then went current affair, and then went over to a show called hardcore ipp inside edition america . i ipp inside edition america. i worked for these television tabloid shows and what were you doing? i was a private investigator. whenever a story was breaking about whoever they wanted me to track that person down so they could go in and interview them or contact them and i eventually , eventually got and i eventually, eventually got out of working for the american tabloids and i was looking for work. so i started a company called british american news

service. oh, and through word of mouth, i never advertise at all. journal and what they call stringer journalists , reporters stringer journalists, reporters for the various tabloids. and in london started calling me and asking me to locate people and do background checks on them. and background checks. yeah find out everything. well, it never occurred to me at the time , um, occurred to me at the time, um, that. occurred to me at the time, um, that . when you do a occurred to me at the time, um, that. when you do a background check as a as a private investigator , you get full investigator, you get full details , you get their social details, you get their social security numbers or driver's licence or date of birth , licence or date of birth, mother's maiden name, all that stuff that that really shouldn't be used by journalists . you be used by journalists. you should just give them where do they live , what's their phone they live, what's their phone number? and that's it. >> because if they if you give them the social security, then they use that. them the social security, then the�*how use that. them the social security, then the�* how ?|se that. them the social security, then the�* how ? well, it. them the social security, then the�* how ? well, over here, them the social security, then the�*how ? well, over here, i guess >> how? well, over here, i guess you call it blagging, but they can use that to pretend to be you . so in your case, they had

you. so in your case, they had people call up credit card companies and say, oh, i lost my phone bill, i need to get a copy. and as long as you can answer all the questions correctly , i don't know whether correctly, i don't know whether they even bother doing personate your voice. they'll ask you like, what's your mother's maiden name? i met a blaggard called john ford, who i'm delighted to say he used to go to my old school and what he said was he would use lots of accents because he said the best way to get information out of people pretend that you people was to pretend that you were very stupid . were very stupid. >> and once they've got something like a social security number or the national health number or the national health number or the national health number or something like that, they can ring up pretending that they're from a hospital or a bank. >> and absolutely, absolutely. they can pretend to be you or somebody connected to you and say, oh, i've lost this file. can you send me a copy of it? it became common practise to get your phone records and your credit card bills as your text

messages , everything by messages, everything by pretending to be you. >> but what i want to know is, do you think the knowledge of this went right to the top ? this went right to the top? >> oh, absolutely. they knew exactly what they were doing and they paid big money. i was making a quarter of $1 million a year for quite a long time because i could i had a reputation in that. i could find out everything about anybody, anywhere . and it didn't matter anywhere. and it didn't matter who they were . i had the social who they were. i had the social security for the five security numbers for the five fastest fast us presidents and all of their data. >> so i have one last question, diana. what did you find out about me ? about me? >> well, you you're actually kind of boring. you know. no they were very interested in one of your wives down in texas. one of your wives down in texas. one of them? oh, yeah. i know the one. one. >> one. >> yeah, that. thanks for coming along. >> that's great. thank you very much .

>>i >> i have here someone who needs no introduction, so i'm not going to give him one. chris well, i thought you give me a build up saying one of the most gifted broad casters in. all right. he is one of most right. he is one of the most gifted broadcast writers i've ever had pleasure to meet. ever had the pleasure to meet. i think can ever had think we can say i've ever had the pleasure to meet. thank you, chris. you for doing this. chris. thank you for doing this. well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit there three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats there three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats and there three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats and a there three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats and a deade three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats and a dead pine three well, it's my pleasure. i'm a bit cats and a dead pine marten live cats and a dead pine marten on the table. well, because people love cats. i love cats. >> don't seem to like pine martens. >> that's very strange. that's a stoat. do you know how you can take tell the difference between a stoat and weasel? well, the weasel is weasely , identified weasel is weasely, identified because the stoat is totally different. now tell me your story about these . story about these. >> um , i have a very good >> um, i have a very good relationship with some journalists . journalists. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> done interviews with some of them time and time again because they're decent, honest folk .

they're decent, honest folk. i've also had periods of my life when i've been surrounded by journalists , so i didn't like journalists, so i didn't like very much. >> and paparazzi popping up. they actually did once go through my dustbins. >> i remember really there was nothing there, a little fish. this you were a huge this was when you were a huge star with. well, i think it started . started. >> thank you. a nice man. i think when who wants to be a millionaire started. >> and we were sponsored by the sun newspaper. >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got written about very in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, en about very in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, obviouslyyery in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, obviously .ery in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, obviously . but in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, obviously . but all in >> sponsored by us. yeah. so we got sun, obviously . but all the the sun, obviously. but all the others were trying to dig some dirt up about me, about the show, about it's all a crook or whatever . so not information, whatever. so not information, but dirt . just. just dirt really but dirt. just. just dirt really ? yeah. you know, knock me off the pedestal and knock knock the show off. it's pedestal. it was huge. i mean, one millionaire started. it was just colossal. it was number that was it was a number one that was probably i mean, i was very naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat . it naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat. it was naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat . it was very naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat. it was very naive naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat . it was very naive. naive. i'm sorry. i just stood on a cat. it was very naive. but i think then the sort of phone

hacking was starting because there were, you know, that strange thing when you're talking to someone on the phone and you sort of think there's somebody else listening . i never somebody else listening. i never had yeah, i've had that had that. yeah, i've had that because to have those because you used to have those things tide and things like tide lines and things, thought i never things, and i thought i never i never said anything about it. i just was know rubbish just thought it was know rubbish phone using. then phone that i was using. and then when split from my wife, i when i split from my wife, i mean it became just open season and everywhere . you and they were everywhere. you know, were trying to get at know, they were trying to get at my were obviously my children. they were obviously trying my wife. my children. they were obviously tryingwere my wife. my children. they were obviously tryingwere tryingmy wife. my children. they were obviously tryingwere trying to wife. my children. they were obviously tryingwere trying to getwife. my children. they were obviously tryingwere trying to get your they were trying to get your children? it was only children? yeah and it was only later that i began to realise that this hacking lot was actually taking place on my phone. i had no idea. i'd never i'd heard of it. i thought it was something that happened to somebody else that happens in hollywood. but this world hollywood. but it was this world of so i eventually of spies. yeah. so i eventually the police me. actually, the police came to me. actually, there was a gentleman called glenn mulcaire from news of the world, and on his blotter there, in his in his office were all sorts of phone numbers of various people and whatever. but

ct my name was, was by my mobile phone number, my, my landline at home and also my texts and they said and the guy eventually went to prison. >> i mean, he was he was done for it. and he was banged up for. >> for what? for having your number. i don't understand. not just for having my number. no, because he found because he was he was found guilty of hacking all sorts of people. lots and lots and lots of were there of people were hacked. there were period when, for example, jim, an enormous, jim, my driver, is an enormous, wonderful bear man , a wonderful big bear of a man, a lovely . lovely guy, huge. >> um, and he's been with me for 20, 25 years and one of my closest friends, the kids all love him. >> he's just a really good guy. and there was one particular night when i was separated, i took a lady out. i met for her a dnnks took a lady out. i met for her a drinks and then we went for dinner and there were sort of photographers everywhere we went . and carried on through . and this carried on through the through the night and through the next morning her work morning when i took her to work and so on. and that evening we'd done who wants to be a

millionaire up at elstree . and millionaire up at elstree. and when we were driving home, i said to jim, i can't understand this. how did they know so much detail about where i was going? i mean, it was quite extraordinary because the only person i talked to was jim on the phone, and jim turned to me great big lump with tears his great big lump with tears in his eyes. you've got to eyes. he said, you've got to think me. oh. and i said , think it's me. oh. and i said, you know, love you, mate. i do you know, i love you, mate. i do think you. i can't. think it was you. i can't. there's nobody no other there's nobody else. no other explanation. was only really explanation. it was only really in our relationship up was pretty grim for quite a long time. as a guy, i love, i trusted this guy literally with everything . and he knew so much everything. and he knew so much about me, you know, because we. we'd hours we'd spent hundreds of hours together driving at together driving home late at night studios or night from tv studios or whatever. one of the whatever. i think one of the most things about this and most awful things about this and people there's a people think, oh, there's a celebrity a bad celebrity and he's having a bad time, all all the closest time, but all all the closest relate ships are broken up because the only assumption is not that you've been hacked, but because this person you've known all these years is talking to the press. it's appalling. know. >> and it was with jim,

obviously, but also with my friends, my kids. >> i didn't trust anybody for weeks until eventually the pattern oh my pattern emerged. i went, oh my god, that's what's been happening. a horrible time. i mean , it also became a kind of mean, it also became a kind of sport because they were just everywhere. i mean, literally, as i say, they were looking my dustbins. i mean, what are you going find? a bloke's going to find? a bloke's dustbin, pair of soiled pants going to find? a bloke's duwhatever.iir of soiled pants going to find? a bloke's duwhatever. god' soiled pants going to find? a bloke's duwhatever. god knows, pants going to find? a bloke's duwhatever. god knows, bless them. >> i mean, were always, >> i mean, they were always, always jim in my car. always following jim in my car. >> and a lot the time i spent >> and a lot of the time i spent on the with blanket over >> and a lot of the time i spent on �*head. with blanket over >> and a lot of the time i spent on �*head. and ith blanket over >> and a lot of the time i spent on �*head. and it| blanket over >> and a lot of the time i spent on �*head. and it was lanket over >> and a lot of the time i spent on �*head. and it was quite: over my head. and it was quite bizarre the whole period, but also quite often we would switch cars. with cars. so jim would go off with a blanket the back over a sort blanket in the back over a sort of a pillow. oh, he of probably a pillow. oh, he took a miles he took him from elstree convinced elstree studios once convinced that the of this that i was in the back of this car, down the canterbury . car, almost down the canterbury. and he he got out and parked and he got he got out and parked up course went in for a up and of course went in for a cup of coffee in a service station. and they all ran to the car knocking on the window and showed that there was nobody showed me that there was nobody there. sport. there. so it did become a sport. my favourite, favourite my favourite, my favourite moment that i remember from all this lives down in

this is thatjim lives down in dartford at and as i say, he's a big old boy and he got home quite late one night. he dropped me off somewhere and went home and he was sort of on his way to getting into bed. there was getting into bed. and there was a the door. hello, mr a knock on the door. hello, mr luck. he yeah, what is luck. and he went, yeah, what is it know, i'm to it you know, i'm trying to sleep. it's the sun newspaper here, mr luck. got a here, mr luck. we've got a cheque here for £5,000. someone's going get it. we someone's going to get it. we want about chris want a story about chris tarrant. get tarrant. someone's going to get it. you and jim it. might as well be you and jim went. all right, wait a minute. wait a minute. i waited for wait a minute. and i waited for a of minutes the door a couple of minutes and the door burst jim's holding. burst open and jim's holding. now in a vest. got now jim is in a vest. he's got his trousers on. in vest. now jim is in a vest. he's got hisit'sjsers on. in vest. now jim is in a vest. he's got hisit's aers on. in vest. now jim is in a vest. he's got hisit's a pretty in vest. now jim is in a vest. he's got hisit's a pretty scary in vest. now jim is in a vest. he's got hisit's a pretty scary sight.>st. so it's a pretty scary sight. it's huge chunk of wood it's got this huge chunk of wood in hand, they're going, in his hand, and they're going, what what are you what are you doing? what are you doing? got chunk of doing? well, i've got a chunk of wood here. somebody going to get it? >> it might as well be you. >> it might as well be you. >> down the street >> and they ran down the street like scalded one of the like scalded bunnies. one of the things i remember vividly, like scalded bunnies. one of the things i lemember vividly, like scalded bunnies. one of the things i lememiit'svividly, like scalded bunnies. one of the things i lememiit's suchy, like scalded bunnies. one of the things i lememiit's such a because i think it's such a great was talking great expression, i was talking to collins, who'd had a to phil collins, who'd had a really with the really very bad time with the press him and, you know, really very bad time with the presorts him and, you know, really very bad time with the presorts of him and, you know, really very bad time with the pre sorts of intrusion,d, you know, all sorts of intrusion, whatever. said, you whatever. and i said, do you think these guys , because think these guys, because they're doing some them are

they're doing some of them are doing dirty doing really illegal dirty things , not all of them, but things, not all of them, but some them . and said, do you some of them. and i said, do you think realise the think they actually realise the hurt causing ? and phil hurt they're causing? and phil said, he said, the trouble is they've been down in the so long they've been down in the so long they can no longer smell it, which is an unpleasant idea , but which is an unpleasant idea, but actually it's spot on. it just becomes the way you do things. you forget about the moral thing. yeah, yeah . drinking your thing. yeah, yeah. drinking your gin . it's going to be a very gin. it's going to be a very happy cat soon. when you said , happy cat soon. when you said, do you know plenty of journalists were decent guys? this is true . absolutely. but this is true. absolutely. but the real pressure, the real villains , i think, are the villains, i think, are the editors, because the editors basically say to them , if you basically say to them, if you don't do this, you're fine . and don't do this, you're fine. and they've got a wife and kids and a mortgage. yeah, right. absolutely. so it's the editors who seem to me to be the really evil ones . and of course, they evil ones. and of course, they you never hear about them because they preserve a kind of anonymity. yeah but i feel that

that they must basically be sociopaths to have so little care for other people's feelings. none at all. i just hope that slowly it's getting better. but there are more and more famous people who are fair game because all this sort of reality, there are so many people now . yeah. when you people now. yeah. when you started when i started , there started when i started, there weren't many famous people weren't that many famous people at there was this at all and there was this atmosphere and they actually that before james murdoch that was before james murdoch bought the news of the world. it's ever since then . yeah. and it's ever since then. yeah. and there is this feeling which i certainly have never subscribed to, like if you're on the right, if i sit out at this or i get the cats licked, you're very welcome. so the cat's tongue in it probably be okay. well, it's gin anyway. oh here he comes again . oh, thank you. he's a bit again. oh, thank you. he's a bit of a nuisance, isn't he ? he's of a nuisance, isn't he? he's very intrusive, man. i don't

know. i don't know where he comes from. like me much. oh, he's. he's a sort of maitre d around here. but we very unpleasant sort of guy. we'll cut this out. all right, i'm going to talk to the director of. i think there are people now now who just like being famous . now who just like being famous. so the front page so if you're on the front page of one of the tabloids, even if you're being absolutely vilified , it's like, look at me. look at me on front page today. yes. but it says you had sex with your mother. i'm mother. it don't matter. i'm there. i'm up in there. i'm there. i'm up in lights. think there is quite lights. i think there is quite a lot that lot of that now. >> well, thank you very much for coming. >> i really appreciate your time. listen to god bless . time. listen to me. god bless. so the last person i'm going to talk to today is mr ian lucas. hello there. thanks for coming. thank you. ian is a lawyer, but none the worse for that. and he was also an mp, a labour mp for 19 years for rex aranda . but i 19 years for rex aranda. but i kind of fell in love with you because i saw a clip on the

internet where you were cross—examining hancock. matt hancock, about a statement that he made in the house of commons, which seemed to be rather misleading. let's have a look at it. i decided that the best thing is not to have a i know what your position is inquiry, but what i'm saying to you is thatis but what i'm saying to you is that is that you misrepresent . that is that you misrepresent. >> did sir brian leveson's position to the commons on that day ? day? >> well, that's your view. >> well, that's your view. >> we're not going to come to agreement on it. i think i faithfully represent it as set out as you read out and but out as as you read out and but l. l. out as as you read out and but i, i, i understand. >> i can see that you would rather have done it differently. >> now. what i would rather would, would be that you were straightfonnard fonnard. >> now i'm a lawyer. >> now i'm a lawyer. >> okay? yes, i know when particular words are drafted for particular words are drafted for particular purposes as purposes. >> and i think your words were drafted to mislead .

drafted to mislead. >> and that's what i think. well i all i can say and what i would have preferred would be if you quote id sir brian leveson, when he said that he fundamentally disagreed . with the conclusion disagreed. with the conclusion that the government had reached . that the government had reached. i can see that that was that's your preference . yeah, i wrote your preference. yeah, i wrote my speech in order to describe his position, my preference and set me a state is honesty and straightfonnard . strai ghtfo nnard. >> that's straightfonnard. >> that's evidence. that's right. and i would really welcome that from you noted . welcome that from you noted. >> i thought that was quite wonderful . wonderful. >> what's extraordinary is that this is the first time i've been asked to speak about this. what >> no one was interested. no one covered it. >> and matt hancock, after that interview , believe it or not, interview, believe it or not, was promoted . ha ha ha ha ha ha. was promoted. ha ha ha ha ha ha. that was very, very limited coverage about the interview at the time. but of course , the time. but of course, remember, this was about the press , which i think is not

coincidental. >> no . so leveson to let's talk >> no. so leveson to let's talk about leveson too, because it seems to me and i'm not well enough informed that we badly need that. tell me . need that. tell me. >> i think we do what leveson two is about is the relationship between the press and the police . and this was an essential part of the leveson inquiry . we of the leveson inquiry. we remember that it was set up in around the milly dowler yes, controversy and we were able then to investigate with the press. and this is what leveson one was about. the newspapers and what steps they'd been taken . but leveson two could not proceed because there were a number of criminal trials that were happening and had to finish before we could look into the detail of the relation between the police and the press. and we know from the parliamentary inquiry that took place in around 2003 that rebekah brooks

admitted to a parliamentary inquiry that they bought the sun, bought information from the police and that that was admitted to chris bryant way back and nothing was done about that. nothing until the back and nothing was done about that . nothing until the dowler that. nothing until the dowler incident happened . and it was incident happened. and it was only then that it was picked up some 7 or 8 years later. >> what else is there in leveson ? two that people should be rooting for? >> well, they should be looking at issues like the ownership of newspapers and about the connections . is that that there connections. is that that there are with with people who own the biggest newspaper is that we read every day but actually don't live in britain. >> no i know there's a small world in in in british politics thatis world in in in british politics that is closely connected to newspapers. >> yes. and when something like mine , if you with matt hancock mine, if you with matt hancock happens . yes. i think that there

happens. yes. i think that there are connections that are made ad that privete the wide dissemination of information like that i think the government needs to look at the ownership of newspapers , introduce rules of newspapers, introduce rules and laws that other countries have. yeah i wouldn't be a bad idea at, and that would enable the us to have a you know, a wide ranging open press expressing different points of view from different ends of the political spectrum that that that would enable us to have a sensible debate in in the newspapers proper democratic debate in a way that we just don't have at the moment in shut up . as professor barnett said, up. as professor barnett said, you can't have a proper democracy unless the voters have reasonably decent and honest information and we don't have

that now . that now. >> we have newspapers which as a knee jerk reaction , support the knee jerk reaction, support the tories and a couple that supports the left. if we want more accurate and honest information, we have to regulate it. the newspapers that have basically become propaganda sheets and the next step in doing that is to implement leveson to so that when a newspaper prints something that's untrue , a regulatory body that's untrue, a regulatory body can order them to print a correction in the same size. and the same prominence as the original untruth. we need a system more like ofcom for the printed press . now the press printed press. now the press will say this inhibits their freedom and their right, but only a little bit . it'll freedom and their right, but only a little bit. it'll inhibit their freedom to tell any lies they well , like music .

n ext next time on the dinosaur are i see these you know, trans women are real women. >> no, you're not. okay. that's the bottom line. i was married to a therapist and you survived. ha, ha . well, she cost me 20 million. >> i want to know what you really feel about woke . really feel about woke. >> i hate it

on mark dolan tonight. >> we're live an hour later on sundays from ten. and in my take at ten. why the woke left? don't realise that by supporting hamas terror they are turkeys voting for christmas. what would margaret thatcher be advising rishi sunak to do to win the next election ? i'll be asking

next election? i'll be asking her former top adviser , nigel her former top adviser, nigel gardiner. plus ann widdecombe , gardiner. plus ann widdecombe, the pundits, tomorrow's papers and more reaction to the shock passing of friends star matthew perry with live from . ten away perry with live from. ten away. let's get to work. it's 10:00 on tv, on radio and online in the united kingdom. and across the world. this is mark dolan tonight. in my take at ten, why the woke left? don't realise that by supporting hamas terror they are the turkeys voting for christmas . as our national christmas. as our national broadcaster is mocked worldwide for its handling of the israel crisis , has the bbc become a crisis, has the bbc become a global laughing stock and as next week's king's speech sees a bonfire of eco policies as could ditching net zero save rishi sunak premiership, i'll be asking tonight's newsmaker, former government minister politics legend ann widdecombe .

politics legend ann widdecombe. plus, what would