the o2. from selling out at the 02. you'll be able to see my exclusive interview with the canadian and canadian psychologist and prominent conservative thinker jordan . we touched on jordan peterson. we touched on everything from israel to multiculturalism to boris to rishi. we even spoke about harry and meghan. would you believe . and meghan. would you believe. and also, of course, what he makes of the conservative party. so it's a really interesting watch you won't want to miss watch and you won't want to miss it. the covid inquiry of course, continues to make headlines after those very sweary sessions this week featuring a certain dominic cummings. i'm going to be discussing all of that with veteran tory david davis and asking whether the inquiry is actually fit for purpose and this is a story that really caught my eye this week. i'll be talking to the managing director of a security company that's taking the law into its own hands with shoplifting in the uk on the rise. david mackelvie will me how he's managed to will tell me how he's managed to privately thieves. privately prosecute 300 thieves. so as i say, it's a jam packed 90 minutes. you won't want to go anywhere. first of all though, let's have look at what's in

let's have a look at what's in the newspapers today. joining me now, delighted say is my now, i'm delighted to say is my gb colleague and former gb news colleague and former defence secretary, michael portillo. michael double portillo. michael doing a double shift morning before your shift this morning before your show thank you very show at 11. thank you very, very much let's get much for coming in. let's get straight it because i spent straight into it because i spent most of last night looking at twitter seeing some of these twitter and seeing some of these scenes on the streets of london. there's still this debate raging over these over whether these pro—palestinian marches are hate marches, as suella braverman has described . and we've now described. and we've now discovered , thanks to the sunday discovered, thanks to the sunday telegraph, that a met police adviser led the from the river to the sea. chant right. i mean, we're looking at some of these stories. there's a previous one about somebody who's been involved in the protests, who's an nhs gp. if you've got a met police adviser leading from the river to the sea chant, then you've probably got a problem with the met police, haven't you? >> do you remember we were all a bit surprised recently when the met police suddenly said that there to the there were many meanings to the word yes. and we thought word jihad. yes. and we thought how on earth does the met police

have kind of knowledge? have this kind of knowledge? this kind of intellectual expertise ? it now seems possibly expertise? it now seems possibly that it's been advised by people that it's been advised by people that possibly the met police didn't know were also participate in marches and not just participating , but just participating, but participating vocally and participating very vocally and using this phrase which is extremely offensive to jewish people because they interpret it as meaning saying we're going to clear that area of jews. >> yes, i think it's also significant to have a look at this debate that seems to be going on between particularly the met police. and we had sir mark rowley in the week saying that didn't have enough that he didn't have enough powers to crack down on some of this extremist hate that we've witnessed in recent days. you've then got the government saying, no, you do have the powers. you're not using them you're just not using them adequately, there must adequately, although there must be that perhaps be an admission that perhaps they beef them because they could beef them up because we understand from the observer that is looking at that michael gove is looking at trying to extend the hate crime laws to include anyone seen as undermining the uk. now, do you

think that there should be limits on peaceful protest, michael, and what limits should be placed it? >> i think the story, by the way, refers us to michael gove wanting to drive something like undermining democracy , which undermining uk democracy, which i think is slightly different from undermining . the uk. and from undermining. the uk. and i think that is indeed a very arguable point. i mean , if arguable point. i mean, if people are trying to undermine what the state is all about, i mean democracy is kind of the basic value of the united kingdom, then there may be an argument saying that that argument for saying that that should definition of should be a definition of extremism. think it's quite extremism. i think it's quite interesting. that the interesting. the way that the story the observer appears to story in the observer appears to come is by civil come about, which is by civil service a yeah, clearly service a leak. yeah, clearly there going on. there is a debate going on. civil are being asked civil servants are being asked by to produce various by ministers to produce various drafts that can be debated. and i rather pre—emptively i think rather pre—emptively some civil servants are obviously this move , obviously against this move, have leaked trying to kill have leaked it, trying to kill it us say that because it. let us just say that because we are a democracy, you know, any such definition would go through the house of commons and would then go through the house of and would be of lords and would be exhaustively debated. i mean, this something which is this is not something which is the to

the government is going to produce decree or a fiat. produce as a decree or a fiat. no, no, no. this will have to be debated extensively. so i have some with the with the some sympathy with the with the government wanting to be government on wanting to be precise about this. and by the way, it says, and this is way, it also says, and this is important that there would be guidance about how that would be applied. because word applied. yes, because the word of one thing. but how of the law is one thing. but how you apply it is another on this question of the powers, as i understand it, metropolitan understand it, the metropolitan police the power to police does have the power to not give authority for a march to take place, as i am rather gloomy about next weekend. yeah many british people would be deeply offended if there were a violent protests. and these have the potential to be violent over the potential to be violent over the armistice weekend and we certainly can't have a situation where his majesty the king turns up on sunday at a cenotaph that has been daubed with graffiti or anything like that. so i mean, honestly, perish the thought that we're even contemplating that we're even contemplating that the cenotaph could be defaced at the very least, if the march goes ahead, at the

very least, the cenotaph and much of whitehall , i think is much of whitehall, i think is going to have to be defence added. and i'm afraid i can already see the kinds of scenes that we may witness next weekend. >> so you're saying the police have the powers to stop this march? rowley says they don't. so people are talking about, oh, should there be some emergency legislation to stop it? but you're saying that's not necessary. if only the police would powers that would use the powers that they've got. >> well, i'm a lawyer, and >> well, i'm not a lawyer, and i briefly tried to inform myself on this question before i came on this question before i came on air. as understand it, on air. as i understand it, permission has to be given by the metropolitan police. but that's of that's only the first stage of the even if the thing, because even if permission not given, it permission is not given, it doesn't that thousands of doesn't mean that thousands of people won't descend anyway. what mean is that the what it would mean is that the reaction of the police those reaction of the police to those people turning be people turning up would be different had not different if the march had not been authorised. i mean, any been authorised. but i mean, any of can the possible city of us can see the possible city that cenotaph would be a that the cenotaph would be a target. yes. and i'd and that will have to defended. and will have to be defended. and i think, know, one way or think, you know, one way or another, they're going be another, they're to going be ugly and i think british

ugly scenes. and i think british people be very people are going to be very upset, you know, to see the king go there on the sunday is if there's been you know, there's been mayhem, you know, even in trafalgar even if it's in trafalgar square, in parliament square, either whitehall either end of whitehall is going to be very upsetting. >> so let's move on to how keir starmer defends himself from some mps who are now some of his own mps who are now calling on calling for a vote on a ceasefire. i mean, this is extraordinary because keir starmer isn't even in power and yet can't seem to sort yet can't be can't seem to sort of enforce collective responsibility, even he's responsibility, even though he's talking which talking about matters for which he has no responsibility at all. >> i mean, a way it's >> yeah, i mean, in a way it's very typical of the party very typical of the labour party actually. typical of actually. maybe it's typical of political get political parties to get themselves in such a twist over something cannot something that they cannot possibly however, possibly influence. however, they twist . i have they are in such a twist. i have rather , maybe because i rather taken, maybe because i like taking contrary views, i'd rather taken the opposite view on keir starmer and said to myself to others this looks myself and to others this looks like a real example of leadership. actually because at any he have any moment he might have buckled. moment he might buckled. at any moment he might have call for have said, i'm going to call for a ceasefire. i mean, calling for a ceasefire. i mean, calling for a ceasefire. i mean, calling for a ceasefire you a ceasefire unless you understand what it really means. doesn't sound like bad doesn't sound like such a bad thing. like you

thing. it just sounds like you want to save human. >> of people are calling >> lots of people are calling for because it makes them for it because it makes them feel on twitter, feel better on twitter, seemingly. afraid seemingly. i am afraid i entirely agree with you. >> anyway, keir hasn't done >> but anyway, keir hasn't done that. has. he's been brave. i that. he has. he's been brave. i think been very brave. and think he's been very brave. and by i he by the way, now i think he absolutely stick to it absolutely has to stick to it because he has to hold the line a huge amount is now at stake for him. >> talking about being at >> talking about things being at stake. sunday times, stake. i mean, the sunday times, there's very stark warning there's a very stark warning from people who know their from two people who know their onions comes to the onions when it comes to the economy. they saying? economy. what are they saying? who's michael who's saying what? michael >> just think. this >> oh, let me just think. this is john johnny larry fink is john is he johnny larry fink from the blackrock investment group and dimon from the jp morgan jamie dimon. i've got this right. jamie dimon. and listen , i think this is a bit of listen, i think this is a bit of an exaggeration. they're saying that things are the worst. they've since 1938. what they've been since 1938. what they're to is the fear they're referring to is the fear factor , the. well, all right. factor, the. well, all right. yes, we are afraid . we're afraid yes, we are afraid. we're afraid about what's happening in the middle could get middle east. and it could get a great deal worse. and economically we're economically speaking, we're afraid that could put up afraid that that could put up

energy and that inflation energy prices and that inflation could continue. and if inflation continues, means that continues, that means that interest would have go interest rates would have to go up. that the fear up. and that means that the fear of is very, very of recession is very, very marked. we also know there's still ukraine and russia going on other things could start, including taiwan. yes, we've seen a global recession as bad as 1938. >> is that overstated? >> is that overstated? >> well, i think what he was saying was that the political situation was the most dangerous since 1938. and that is where i do take issue, because if we're talking about fear, i mean , you talking about fear, i mean, you didn't have this experience, but you had to through 60s you had to live through the 60s to to know what fear was to the 80s to know what fear was about. and from time to time, we all thought we were going to be annihilated nuclear and annihilated by nuclear war. and when, you putin at the when, you know, putin at the early the early stages of the russia—ukraine mentioned russia—ukraine war mentioned nuclear , you know, that nuclear weapons, you know, that shudder us all shudder went through us all again. i would say if you're again. but i would say if you're trying say this the most trying to say this is the most terrifying situation the terrifying situation since the 30s, that is an exaggeration. however, people do however, i mean, these people do know what they're talking about, economically speaking. i'm economically speaking. and i'm afraid impact of afraid to say that the impact of the particularly the wars, particularly in the middle on oil their

middle east on oil prices, their foreign inflation, foreign foreign inflation, their foreign interest , that doesn't interest rates, that doesn't look doesn't paint look great, doesn't paint a pretty picture for the next few years . years. >> let's look at the story on the mail on sunday the front of the mail on sunday on basis of nadine dorries. on the basis of nadine dorries. quite explosive book, tory party covered up for serial rapist mp. what's happening here? michael >> who knows? i mean, this is really a deeply disturbing story. not entirely clear to me whether this is a new story or a sort of continuation of something that's been around before. but i mean, obviously, if someone is thought even possibly to have committed rapes against, they're talking about five victims. this is extraordinarily serious. and there does seem to be something in this story in as much as it appears that jake berry, who was briefly the chairman of the conservative party, it appears that he worried that the party was not doing enough about it or the right things about it, wrote to the police. and there are extensive quotes from that letter. yes, haven't heard letter. yes, i haven't heard

from this morning. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou this morning. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou know, this morning. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou know, on|is morning. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou know, on theiorning. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou know, on the faceng. letter. yes, i haven't heard fronyou know, on the face of it, but you know, on the face of it, the letter looks it the letter looks genuine. it looks did actually looks as if he did actually write that letter. so it'd be interesting to hear what he says. be interesting to hear what mean, what oliver dowden, i mean, the suggestion cover up that suggestion is of a cover up that the party sort of sent this complainant private complainant to a private hospital for her hospital and paid for her treatment rather than having a police investigation. yes, i mean, if she was not, of course, in a fit state to make a statement, if she needed treatment before making a statement, you know, there might be some defence along those lines. but but that is very, very disturbing. and then let's just say the nadine just say that in the nadine dorries book, boris book there, that's a, that's an interesting slip because it kind of is boris bookin slip because it kind of is boris book in disguise, isn't it? it's a subplot in the book. there are lurid other allegations , as lurid other allegations, as i don't know whether to repeat them really well sunday morning, but there are sexual allegations of nature billiard of a sexual nature billiard table. concerns a videotape . table. one concerns a videotape. yeah, the sorts of yeah, these are the sorts of things that , you know, people things that, you know, people use to talk about in parliament. lurid stories that you could never quite put your finger on.

and i'm quite sure and so i'm not quite sure whether this kind of the whether this is kind of the rumour but sleazy rumour mill, but it looks sleazy and therefore it looks a little bit like a return the 80s and bit like a return to the 80s and 90s tory sleaze, which is 90s of tory sleaze, which is slightly disturbing, isn't it? >> well , since i was slightly disturbing, isn't it? >> well, since i was around in those days, i was saying not associating that with you directly . directly. >> no, but i would say these accusations are a great deal worse. yeah. okay. i remember all about nine. don't it all about nine. i don't think it was about this. >> that's right. look, >> no, no, that's right. look, i'm to be speaking to i'm going to be speaking to oliver about a bit oliver dowden about this a bit later because he was tory party chairman jake so chairman before jake berry. so we'll find out whether we'll try and find out whether he any knowledge this he has any knowledge of this report. let's just move on to another controversial tory report. let's just move on to an suella controversial tory report. let's just move on to an suella bravermanversial tory report. let's just move on to an suella braverman homelessr in suella braverman homeless tents she says are a lifestyle choice for many. according to the front of the sunday telegraph is homelessness a lifestyle choice? michael do you think i don't know because i'm absolutely not in that field and it's a very dangerous field in which to speak without expert knowledge. >> what i kind of remember from my time in government is that there are a number of people

living on the streets that you try to persuade off the streets. you're trying to say there's a place tonight in a hostel and you'd be much better off. you know, you can have a you can have a bath and you can have a bed. and these people might say to you, we do not want to go to the hospital. and that might be because fearful because they are fearful of the other inmates, think other inmates, that they think they're to have their they're going to have their money their or their money stolen, their or their possessions might possessions stolen. it might be any of but any number of things, but i think it is the case that there are people that are trying are some people that are trying to off street and to persuade off the street and you cannot get them to go for whatever reasons have. so whatever reasons they have. so maybe what she's maybe that's what she's referring at the end of referring to at the other end of the scale, i do think the public, maybe the maybe the pubucis public, maybe the maybe the public is wrong here. but the pubuc public is wrong here. but the public doesn't want to see places becoming completely run down. no, no. i mean, if you go to san francisco, i mean, what has happened in san francisco has happened in san francisco has destroyed the attraction of the city. >> and she has cited that braverman. she said we don't want to be turning into san

francisco, but suppose my francisco, but i suppose my question this question is, is this woman a help or a hindrance to the tory party? lot people party? because a lot of people watching and listening to this will agree with on will probably agree with her on much what says . but much of what she says. but sometimes of phrase is sometimes her turn of phrase is sometimes her turn of phrase is so frank as to be unhelpful . so frank as to be unhelpful. >> she certainly a woman who attracts headlines and i think seeks to do so because she wants to be the next tory leader . to be the next tory leader. >> is this throwing red meat to the so—called righties? >> i don't think i've even met her, so i'm probably not the person to answer that question. but what she does is she does she does one thing that a party wants , and to establish wants, and that is to establish a divide between you and the other side . yes. but the other other side. yes. but the other thing that party wants to do thing that a party wants to do is to be on the middle ground to attract people into the middle. and does is he plays and what rishi does is he plays her on, on, on a line her a bit on, on, on, on a line so that she does the bit where you divide society up and make sure that you and attracts the criticism keeps criticism criticism keeps him criticism keeps dry and then he keeps his powder dry and then he does bit where try to does the bit where you try to attract onto the centre ground.

>> it's quite clever politics. if you look at it like that. michael but i'm not sure whether if you look at it like that. mspeaksiut i'm not sure whether if you look at it like that. mspeaks much| not sure whether if you look at it like that. mspeaks much| n(a sure whether if you look at it like that. mspeaks much| n(a resolving:her if you look at it like that. mspeaks much| n(a resolving ofr it speaks much to a resolving of the that constantly the civil war that constantly takes place in the tory party. perhaps we should it there. >> and we're quite a divided country, what we've country, which is what we've been talking with been talking about with these marches may next marches and what may happen next week. divided country, you kind >> so divided country, you kind of need a solid government of do need a solid government andindeed of do need a solid government and indeed an opposition that of do need a solid government and itearingin opposition that of do need a solid government and itearing itselfiosition that of do need a solid government and itearing itself apart.| that of do need a solid government and itearing itself apart. onet isn't tearing itself apart. one would looking to would think. looking fonnard to your 11. michael, thank would think. looking fonnard to you|for 11. michael, thank would think. looking fonnard to you|for coming michael, thank would think. looking fonnard to you|for coming iniichael, thank would think. looking fonnard to you|for coming in earlyl, thank would think. looking fonnard to you|for coming in early andink you for coming in early and speaking me as i've just speaking to me now, as i've just said to michael there, coming up, i'm going be quizzing the up, i'm going to be quizzing the deputy prime minister, oliver dowden. here's the weather. >> hello there. good morning. i'm jonathan vautrey here of your gb news weather forecast provided by the met office is a bit of a misty, murky start for some of us. will be slow to some of us. fog will be slow to clear places, but it will clear in places, but it will eventually lift thanks to this westerly that's to westerly airflow that's going to start in as start streaming its way in as low pressure off to the low pressure drifts off to the east. this westerly airflow as well, though, pushing showers well, though, pushing in showers for districts be for western districts could be quite times with quite heavy at times with rumbles of thunder, maybe some hail well. few showers

hail as well. a few showers lingering across eastern coast hail as well. a few showers linwellg across eastern coast hail as well. a few showers linwellg ac|morning. rn coast hail as well. a few showers linwellg ac|morning. but)ast hail as well. a few showers linwellg ac|morning. but into as well this morning. but into the is to be the afternoon, it is going to be the afternoon, it is going to be the east that stays driest with prolonged amounts of sunshine, quite breezy around coastal prolonged amounts of sunshine, quite ofzezy around coastal prolonged amounts of sunshine, quite of england nd coastal prolonged amounts of sunshine, quite of england nd cwwales, but areas of england and wales, but temperatures inland temperatures further inland around 14 c. fairly around ten, 14 c. so fairly pleasant if you are in the sunnier spots. but any firework shows this evening, generally quite clear conditions further towards the east, but still catering for those showers in the west on and off throughout the west on and off throughout the night. a few, though, just pushing the channel pushing across the channel islands south—east islands into the south—east england as we head later in england as we head later on in the as well. underneath the night as well. underneath the night as well. underneath the skies, though, the starry skies, though, temperatures dropping the starry skies, though, tenquite ures dropping the starry skies, though, tenquite aes dropping the starry skies, though, tenquite a lot dropping the starry skies, though, tenquite a lot for)pping the starry skies, though, tenquite a lot for most| off quite a lot chilly for most off quite a lot chilly for most of particularly so for of us, but particularly so for parts eastern scotland, parts of eastern scotland, north—east england, where a touch frost possible. and touch of frost is possible. and again, be some fog again, there will be some fog lingering throughout monday morning. the morning. but generally on the whole, another west whole, it is another east west split on monday. showers continuing in from the continuing to push in from the west, eastern west, heavy at times, eastern hours dry. we could hours largely dry. but we could see eventually pushing see some eventually pushing their into east midlands, their way into east midlands, parts southeast as parts of southeast england as well. 10 well. temperatures once again 10 to a touch fresher to 14 c, but a touch fresher where you're caught in the relatively conditions. relatively breezy conditions. showery tuesday , showery once again on tuesday, but rain arrives

but more persistent rain arrives for wednesday. enjoy day . by by >> by >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show we're waiting for oliver dowden to be miked up so i can speak to him from his position in central london. in the meantime, i just wanted to taste we've coming taste what we've got coming up on show. have no on the show. you'll have no doubt on the channel doubt heard on the channel me promoting interview with promoting my interview with jordan spoke to him jordan peterson. i spoke to him at arc conference the at the arc conference in the week, and it was a fascinating chat. we discussed boris. we discussed rishi, discussed discussed rishi, we discussed multiculturalism . we discussed multiculturalism. we discussed cancel culture, transgenderism , cancel culture, transgenderism, the rights to protest vote and what's been going on in israel andindeed what's been going on in israel and indeed the streets of london. anti—semitism and we even discussed harry and meghan , even discussed harry and meghan, so very interested to so you'll be very interested to hear that interview, which we're going playing a little going to be playing a little later on in the show. also going to be speaking to john healey. he's who wants to be the he's the man who wants to be the next defence secretary. be very interested what has interested to hear what he has got about the problem got to say about the problem facing starmer right now, facing keir starmer right now, because pretty because he did this pretty punchy in week where punchy speech in the week where he showed a great deal of

courage by effectively saying that to call for that he wasn't going to call for a ceasefire in israel despite i think now 17 of his own backbenchers and 250 councillors threatening resignation over the issue. but i would like to ask john healey whether he can maintain that line and what he might want to do about defence spending. i'm going be spending. i'm also going to be speaking david davis about speaking to david davis about the covid inquiry which has made the covid inquiry which has made the and the headlines in the week. and indeed going be speaking indeed i'm to going be speaking to the man who been to the man who has been privately prosecuting shoplifters. he's been picking up police have left up where the police have left off in a bid to try and help shopkeepers who are losing hundreds hundreds of pounds hundreds and hundreds of pounds every week from shoplifting. now, that we ready now, i think that we are ready now to we know we now to speak to we know we haven't yet. haven't got oliver dowden yet. let's bring michael portillo into conversation. while we into the conversation. while we wait oliver dowden and wait for oliver dowden and michael , obviously wait for oliver dowden and michael, obviously going to michael, obviously i'm going to ask dowden about this ask mr dowden about this situation involving this allegation that there may have been a tory cover up of a rape claim or a series of alleged rape claims in general. this book by nadine dorries is speaking to what she claims is a

cabal at the heart of downing street involving the likes of michael gove , a man called michael gove, a man called dougie smith, who's apparently the most powerful tory. we've never heard of. dougie. dougie in the scottish. so he takes the scottish pronunciation . dougie. scottish pronunciation. dougie. i mean, do you know dougie smith? who is this guy? >> dougie smith is married to munira mirza a munira mirza you've heard of because she was a senior figure in downing street and she she resigned at a particular moment. but when she thought that boris had said something outrageous about keir starmer, do you remember that ? starmer, do you remember that? >> yes. about jimmy saville >> yes. about jimmy saville >> about jimmy saville when he was at the crown prosecution service and minimise walked out at that time. dougie is her husband . he was certainly around husband. he was certainly around in tory party circles a long time ago. i don't know about his position . you know , nadine would position. you know, nadine would not be the first witness that i would go to on. i know. >> and people keep on saying, well, she's a fiction writer, so a lot of this smacks of

conspiracy theories at and a degree of kind of novelisation of what went on. however, she's also not the first person who has pointed to a cabal involving michael gove controlling things from within number 10 and conspiring against boris johnson . i mean, it's no secret that this man knifed him in the back. he does seem to have enormous influence behind the scenes . and influence behind the scenes. and when it comes to dougie, the suggestion is that goes suggestion is that this goes back years and years. it was back years and years. and it was dougie. gove and dominic dougie. michael gove and dominic cummings unseat cummings that helped to unseat iain smith as party iain duncan smith as party leader . i iain duncan smith as party leader. i mean, you iain duncan smith as party leader . i mean, you were leader. i mean, when you were around any truth in that, do you think, michael i'd so much lost interest by then. >> i, i okay. before losing interest , i >> i, i okay. before losing interest, i lost >> i, i okay. before losing interest , i lost to >> i, i okay. before losing interest, i lost to iain duncan smith yes . smith yes. >> yeah. this is a sensitive rocket. now i think we might have oliver dowden with this. now. i'm hoping that the deputy prime minister can hear me and is joining from central is joining us from central london as we speak. mr dowden, can you hear me? thank you very, very indeed for your time very much indeed for your time this morning. i've just been speaking portillo

speaking to michael portillo about these allegations about some of these allegations in the mail on sunday and i do need to you, because you need to ask you, because you were party chairman at the time, it's been suggested that the tory covered up a rape tory party covered up a rape claim or several alleged rape claims and paid for a complainant to be sent to a private hospital rather than speak to the police. you were party chairman before jake berry wrote this letter alerting the authorities to what had gone on. what knowledge do you have of these events, mr dowden well, first of all, i should factually clarify that i wasn't the immediate predecessor of jake berry. >> i don't recognise these these reports, and it certainly wasn't the case i was party the case when i was party chairman that there was any kind of indeed i take of cover up. indeed i take exceptionally these exceptionally seriously these reports and allegations . first reports and allegations. first of all, they should be a matter for the police. but also there was an independent party complaints procedure that can be zero tolerance of this kind of activity. >> but did the party pay for the private hospital bill of a rape

complainant? >> well , it's certainly not >> well, it's certainly not something that i signed off as as chairman of the conservative party. i didn't have knowledge of that. i can't say for certain to you simply because i don't know the name of the complainant in question. i don't think it has. sorry. the name of the person whose fees are meant to have been paid by the party. >> but i mean, surely there can't be that many people whose private hospital fees might have been paid by the party? >> well, as i say , i don't >> well, as i say, i don't recognise this from my time as as chairman of the conservative party and i certainly didn't sign off something like that. >> so you've got no knowledge of this, do we think? nadine dorries, your former conservative colleague, is making truth making it up or there's no truth to we've got a letter to it because we've got a letter from jake berry. it seems to have been quoted extensively in the sunday the mail on sunday >> well, my understanding is and i haven't read every last line of the report that the person hasn't been named, but that

that's a matter for the mail on sunday for nadine dorries and for others as well. >> the person might not have been named, but did it happen this letter has been written by jake berry, your successor, suggesting that the tory party has paid the private hospital bill of a rape complainant rather than necessarily sending her to the police station . her to the police station. >> well, all i can say to you is, as i've said, camilla, i didn't sign off anything like that and i don't recognise it. >> my myself. >> my myself. >> so you don't have any knowledge of this having happened. knowledge of this having happened . and no, like i said, happened. and no, like i said, i you know, i was chairman of the conservative party. >> i did not sign off something like that. >> but did you have any knowledge of it having happened? >> no, i'm sorry. i've not >> no, no, i'm sorry. i've not made that clear to you . made that clear to you. >> no. so you don't have any knowledge of this story at all? >> i don't have i don't know who the person is because they

haven't been named. and i've also said to you that in respect of both a cover up, i have zero knowledge of that and we would not have covered up at all. and i certainly didn't sign off any kind of support in the way that has described there. has been described there. >> let's move on the >> okay. let's move on to the controversy around this pro—palestinian march on armistice day . do you think this armistice day. do you think this march should take place ? march should take place? >> i have really grave concerns about this , and i think that about this, and i think that certainly representing a large jewish community, as i do, but it's broader than the jewish community. the remembrance sunday is about and indeed remembrance day on the day this march is planned, is about remembering the sacrifice of previous generations and is a solemn moment in our nation's history. and i don't personally feel that that would be appropriate. i also have concern about the potential for violence and other misconduct. but in the end, the law of the land is that the police are operationally independent, and that's a

decision for the commissioner of the metropolitan police. >> i know, but we've heard from sir mark rowley in the week saying that he doesn't think he has adequate stop the has adequate powers to stop the march. the government march. so if the government wants the march to be stopped, if polling that the if polling suggests that the pubuc if polling suggests that the public march to be public want the march to be stopped, government stop the conservative government stop the march , which . march, which. >> well, there's a very simple process in law , and indeed it's process in law, and indeed it's happened before. it happened when theresa may was home secretary, when there was an engush secretary, when there was an english defence league march, the commissioner of the metropolitan police applied for that march to be banned and she provided the authority as home secretary. the law sets out that it is a matter for the commissioner of the metropolitan police request it of the home police to request it of the home secretary. i think you've seen from home secretary's from the home secretary's comments she's to comments where she's inclined to be but it's a that is the be on it, but it's a that is the way that it works. that's how the law works. >> and so is suella braverman going saying the going to be saying to the metropolitan commissioner going to be saying to the metiweek, an commissioner going to be saying to the metiweek, you commissioner going to be saying to the metiweek, you must:ommissioner going to be saying to the metiweek, you must stop1issioner going to be saying to the metiweek, you must stop thismer this week, you must stop this march. you the powers, so march. you have the powers, so

can stop it, please ? can you stop it, please? >> well, i think you've seen from suella comments how grave her concerns are about it. and i think both in terms of the signal it sends about about our society , our british society, we society, our british society, we should be honouring and respecting the sacrifice made by previous generations. and we should certainly shouldn't have the kind of intimidate action that you see in those marches. and so i think her view is pretty clear on this. >> we know her views. we know your views. we know rishi sunak's it's talk sunak's views. but it's all talk and no when are you and no action. when are you going try put influence going to try and put influence on the police commissioner if he says he has the powers or he needs the powers, either you say to him, you've got the powers, so you please stop the march so can you please stop the march or say you don't have the or you say you don't have the power. so we're to going introduce emergency legislation through as through the house as soon as the house gets back. sitting after the king's speech sure the king's speech to make sure that stopped that this march can be stopped on saturday. >> well, there may be questions

about that for the longer term, but the law as it stands is that it is for the met to make that judgement. you've seen both the comments of the prime minister and the home secretary . i very and the home secretary. i very strongly agree with that as well. i simply don't think this is appropriate. we've made that clear that position clear to the metropolitan police, but ultimately we have to respect the operational independence of the operational independence of the police. that's how policing works in this country and that's how the law is set up under policing acts and others going back, i think, 1986. back, i think, to 1986. >> you've quoted the home secretary there. do agree secretary there. do you agree with her that homelessness is a lifestyle . lifestyle choice. >> well, i want to be in a position where we have zero rough sleeping and to deal with that, we have rough sleeping and to deal with that , we have to rough sleeping and to deal with that, we have to deal with both the push and the pull. >> all but is it >> we all do. but is it a lifestyle choice? >> people who find themselves in a position where they're when if you me explain the you just let me explain the position, deal with the factors that lead people on to the street, whether drug or street, whether it's drug or alcohol and we've alcohol addiction. and we've committed over £2 billion to

addressing that. now, if ultimately people are still on the after that and we're the streets after that and we're having the of disruption having the kind of disruption that you've seen with these tents and all these other things, we don't want a situation where those spring up across so it's right to across the uk. so it's right to look those powers. and look at taking those powers. and that's that's what we're that's that's that's what we're doing. our doing. and as part of our legislative considerations. >> lifestyle choice the >> but is lifestyle choice the right way to refer to homelessness? mr dowden . well, homelessness? mr dowden. well, i think that ultimately if there are other places that you can go and the government has made sure that there are there are safe places for people to go and people continue to be on the street , then we should be able street, then we should be able to take those powers to remove them. >> each individual minister is going to choose their exact words. but agree with the words. but i agree with the sentiment of what the home secretary is saying, which is let's make sure aren't on let's make sure people aren't on the in the first place, the street in the first place, because the because we dealt with the underlying of it. if underlying causes of it. if people are still choosing to be on streets, think the on the streets, i think the government able to government should be able to take those powers as indeed we had act

previously. >> should we be taking rough >> but should we be taking rough sleepers, tents away ? sleepers, tents away? >> well, i think you're talking about measures in extremis . what about measures in extremis. what i would much rather our focus to be, and indeed our focus as a government has been, is about deaung government has been, is about dealing with the underlying causes, dealing with drug addiction , helping people with addiction, helping people with with alcohol addiction. but as an extremist power, it's something that is certainly worth exploring in the way that the home secretary described. >> let's talk about artificial intelligence, because you're quoted in a press release this morning talking about how we might a future where we're might see a future where we're seeing handing over seeing ministers handing over their boxes to a should their red boxes to a bot. should we be worried about these developments? i know there's been fears expressed at been a few fears expressed at the summit that the prime the ai summit that the prime minister hosted in the week with elon musk about people losing their . and their jobs because of ai. and we're saying that the bots we're now saying that the bots are over the are going to take over the running government. mr dowden running of government. mr dowden well, first of all, i think we should first of all see ai as an enormous opportunity. >> the potential to transform

humanity, whether it's challenges like diagnosing cancen challenges like diagnosing cancer, alzheimer's and so on. we do have to address the risks. and we made progress with that at the summit this week. i think government, though, should also adopt artificial intelligence . adopt artificial intelligence. it shouldn't be the case that artificial intelligence is driving efficiency across the private sector and the government doesn't do the same thing ourselves. and that's what we are doing, whether it's in relation to assessing, say, benefit fraud or in helping with ministerial red boxes. and what that really means is there's huge amounts of information coming in, condensing that, getting the of it. and getting to the facts of it. and then of course ministers make their proper way. >> mr dowden thank you very much indeed for joining >> mr dowden thank you very much indeed forjoining me this indeed for joining me this morning. up next the morning. now up next on the show, i'm to be speaking show, i'm going to be speaking to defence secretary to shadow defence secretary labour's he'll labour's john healey and he'll also hear my also be able to hear my exclusive interview with the renowned psychologist exclusive interview with the renoconservative psychologist exclusive interview with the reno conservative thinker 1ologist and conservative thinker jordan peterson . but first, here's get peterson. but first, here's get the let's get the news, rather, with sophia wenzler .

with sophia wenzler. >> it's 10:00. with sophia wenzler. >> it's10:00. i'm sophia wenzler in the newsroom . i'm the wenzler in the newsroom. i'm the met police arrested 29 pro palestine protesters after tens of thousands demonstrate in central london yesterday . the central london yesterday. the force says arrests were made for offences including inciting racial hatred. other racially motivated crimes and assaulting a police officer . they also said a police officer. they also said four police officers were injured when the fireworks were directed towards them by protesters in trafalgar square . protesters in trafalgar square. blasts were seen lighting up the sky in gaza overnight as israeli strikes pound the enclave. the hamas run health ministry in gaza says israeli strikes killed multiple people in a refugee camp on saturday night. israel is yet to respond to these claims. un reports say the average person in gaza is surviving off two pieces of bread and nowhere in the region is safe. meanwhile, antony

blinken continue his diplomatic mission as he heads to turkey today in a series of meetings with the us secretary of state. arab countries are demanding an immediate ceasefire in gaza . immediate ceasefire in gaza. bofis immediate ceasefire in gaza. boris johnson is visiting israel in a show of solidarity . in a show of solidarity. australia's former prime minister scott morrison and the former prime minister are arriving this morning and were greeted by israel's former ambassador to the un, danny danon. ambassador to the un, danny danon . they will visit israel's danon. they will visit israel's southern communities and meet israeli soldiers later. mr johnson is expected to meet with israeli president isaac herzog , israeli president isaac herzog, the foreign office is pressing for the rafah crossing to reopen to allow uk nationals to escape gaza. to allow uk nationals to escape gaza . the 112 people were gaza. the 112 people were expected to leave yesterday when the crossing was temporarily closed. it's unknown how many, if any, were able to make the journey in a statement, a spokesman described the situation as disappointing and

said they remain in contact with british nationals in the region . british nationals in the region. meanwhile, idf has confirmed a four hour evacuation window for gaza civilians to move south with israel. defence forces confirmed the salah al—din road will be cleared between 10 am. and 2 pm. local time. that's 8 am. and 12 pm. uk time. it comes as israel continues its ground offensive. idf released their latest footage of tanks and soldiers in gaza as the land operation unfolds. and a diplomat stalemate of humanitarian ceasefire and prince william has arrived in singapore to attend the 2023 earthshot prize ceremony. the prince of wales is hosting the united for wildlife global summit in conjunction with his earthshot environmental initiative. he hopes to shine a spotlight on south east asia's role in the illegal wildlife trade. the earthshot awards on tuesday will see five category winners presented with £1

million each to scale up their environmental ideas . this is gb environmental ideas. this is gb news across the uk on tv in your car and on your digital smart speaker by saying play gb news now it's back to . camilla now it's back to. camilla >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. lovely to have your company on this sunday morning. now i'm going to be joined by shadow defence secretary john healey in just a moment. hot on the heels from selling out the o2 arena, you'll be able to hear my exclusive interview canadian interview with the canadian psychologist prominent psychologist and prominent conservative jordan conservative thinker jordan peterson, author of 12 rules for life . we touched on everything life. we touched on everything from israel and hamas multiculturalism. harry and meghan and what he makes of the british conservative party. it was a really interesting chat and not want to miss and you will not want to miss it, that. i'm also it, i promise you that. i'm also to going be getting some analysis of the covid inquiry from as from david davis as a libertarian . i'll also be asking libertarian. i'll also be asking him pro—palestinian him whether pro—palestinian protesters allowed to

protesters should be allowed to march on the cenotaph on armistice day. and this is a really good story that caught my eye. going be speaking to eye. i'm going to be speaking to the guy who was privately prosecuted, 300 shoplifters. but first, bring first, as promised, let's bring john healey into the conversation he's the conversation now. he's the shadow secretary. mr shadow defence secretary. mr healey lovely to have you healey, it's lovely to have you on show. think it's the on the show. i think it's the first time we've spoken. so welcome the tominey welcome to the camilla tominey show. see you this show. nice to see you this morning. keir starmer gave, morning. now keir starmer gave, i thought, a very and i thought, a very confident and courageous week courageous speech in the week where about the fact where he talked about the fact that did not want to call for that he did not want to call for a ceasefire because he didn't think that was the right solution for israel and indeed gaza. he's coming under gaza. but he's coming under increasing pressure, isn't he, from some own from some of his own backbenchers? we've got 250 labour councillors threatening to resign over this issue . it's to resign over this issue. it's very difficult for him to , i very difficult for him to, i would say, enforce collective responsibility, even though he says himself that it's very important. he does so in the party. how does he navigate this? mr healey . look, war is this? mr healey. look, war is difficult, as you say.

>> keir starmer made a very important speech. it was a speech of a leader. he was wanting to take people with him. he was making the big arguments. he was making the big arguments. he said , look, i understand why he said, look, i understand why people calling for people are calling for a ceasefire, but first and foremost is rail has the right to self fence. that means going after hamas fighters and their missile systems and their command centres so that they can't pose the same terror risk to israel again in the future. but secondly, there's a very strong practical argument that and he said not a ceasefire for now is not the right way because is the best chance of getting what everybody wants to see a reduction in the civilian casualties and alleviation of the palestinian suffering is by working for humanitarian pauses. it's what the us is doing. it's what the european union is doing. it's even the un aid chief has called for the same, saying it's the only viable option. and so keir starmer is making a big issue to take people with him. and in the end there is a single common concern

in labour party, which is to in the labour party, which is to see the alleviation of palestinian suffering reduce the civilian deaths and get more aid into gaza. i appreciate much more likely to achieve that through pauses, not as simply a call for ceasefire. >> i appreciate that he is trying to keep the party together, but it's not working very well. mr healey, is it? we read in the mail on sunday today that there are now some mps calling for a vote on a ceasefire. so there's a significant rebellion going on within the labour party on this issue, isn't there ? issue, isn't there? >> there isn't a significant rebellion. there is a range of different views that keir starmer recognises , but keir starmer recognises, but keir starmer recognises, but keir starmer is not a protest leader. he's making the arguments of a national politician concerned to see the best way of achieving what is a common concern about the palestinian suffering and loss of innocent lives. more steps need to be taken to protect those, and it's a leader

who wants to take people with him . but in the end, collective him. but in the end, collective responsible city, a degree of discipline is required. >> ah, okay. so if a degree of discipline is required because you're obviously looking fonnard, perhaps to leading the country after the next general election, you're going to have lots of matters of foreign affairs to deal with and you're going to have a number of contrarians own contrarians within your own party. so how should they be disciplined if the likes of claudia webb keep this claudia webb keep up this campaign , which goes against campaign, which goes against what the labour leader is saying, should and others saying, should she and others lose whip ? lose the whip? >> well, claudia webb is not a labour mp at the moment. she's been suspended from the labour party and is under investigation. so look, you know, i've been a labour mp, i've been around a long time, i've been around a long time, i've seen and been a part of the labour party when it's been divided and i have to tell you, if you go back one month at our labour party conference in liverpool, that was a unified conference, totally determined and unified in solidarity with

ukraine behind a plan to help people with the cost of living crisis and a determination to get rid for this country of 13 years of a failing, in—fighting government. and underneath the current difficulties and the differences of view over this heartbreak making conflict in israel and gaza is a labour party determined to give britain a fresh fruit. >> i know, but i suppose what i'm asking is should others face losing the whip like webb if they express similar sentiments on palestine , which are not in on palestine, which are not in accordance with the labour leaders ? leaders? >> well, claudia webb was nothing at all to do with. >> i know, but she's also expressed, she's also expressed some interesting views on the conflict. so i'm using her as an example some the hard example for some on the hard left the party. should people left of the party. should people who adopt kind of stance, who adopt that kind of stance, who adopt that kind of stance, who the labour party who go against the labour party actually be disciplined by losing ? you've taken losing the whip? you've taken away the whip from a number of people, webb, people, including webb,

mcdonnell lately, jeremy corbyn and others. they're all of the same group. think should other mps that express these views against what the labour party leader saying face similar leader is saying face similar discipline and sanction in? >> look, jeremy corbyn is no longer a labour mp either. >> look, jeremy corbyn is no longer a labour mp either . the longer a labour mp either. the mainstream of labour opinion is with keir starmer. i think the speech and the arguments he made last week will help reassure many others that our single common concern within labour and more widely for people who are anguished by what we see on our tv screens and in the on social media is to see a reduction in civilian casualties, more aid going into gaza. yes and more hostages out . and by that, hostages out. and by that, creating some sort of space and confidence that allows further diplomacy in the long run to try and settle this conflict . and settle this conflict. >> mr healey, i wondered if you might be perhaps more equivocal than, say , unequivocal rather than, say, unequivocal rather than, say, unequivocal rather

than, say, unequivocal rather than, say, oliver dowden was when i asked him this question earlier, should this march on armistice day armistice day on saturday be stopped ? yes or no . saturday be stopped? yes or no. >> it will be utterly unacceptable if the march interferes with and disrespect . interferes with and disrespect. that's the remembrance service at the cenotaph, so it should go ahead. >> but we're in a democracy , so >> but we're in a democracy, so we're in a democracy. >> we have to balance the right of free speech and to protest. it's an operational decision for the police . they are talking to the police. they are talking to the police. they are talking to the protest organisers , us who the protest organisers, us who want to show their solidarity with palestinians and they're looking at a different place in london at a time. two hours after the remembrance service at the cenotaph and i hope we'll be able to get to a situation where we're not banning the right of protest, but we're absolutely ensuring that the remembrance

rec cognition and honour of those people who've served and fallen to defend us in this country is fully respected. >> why do you think that keir starmer seemingly felt the need to take off his poppy when he addressed the muslim community of this country in a video ? i've of this country in a video? i've absolutely no idea whether that's happened or not. >> if keir starmer was without a poppy at >> if keir starmer was without a poppy at any stage in this present period, it will be because of something basic like having the wrong jacket or something fell out. so i'm not even sure that what you're telling me is correct. but keir starmer has a huge and deep respect for our armed forces as they keep us safe and he knows, like i do, we've both served in government that the first duty of any government is to keep the country safe and protect our citizens and very soon after he became leader three and a half years ago, he declared that

never again will labour go into an election not trusted on national security. >> so you think it was more kind of by accident than design ? fair of by accident than design? fair enough. me talk to you about enough. let me talk to you about your aspirations. should you become the next. >> well, hang on, i've no, i've no, no. first, i've idea no, no. first, i've no idea whether you're what you're telling me is accurate or not. >> well, he appeared in a in a video addressing the muslim community about islamophobia. video addressing the muslim com he nity about islamophobia. video addressing the muslim com he wasn'tout islamophobia. video addressing the muslim com he wasn't wearingiophobia. video addressing the muslim com he wasn't wearing aphobia. video addressing the muslim com he wasn't wearing a poppy. and he wasn't wearing a poppy. but moments earlier, he was wearing a poppy for another event. i think the labour leader has thatit event. i think the labour leader has that it was a jacket has said that it was a jacket issue, but some have interpreted it as him feeling uncomfortable, perhaps wearing a poppy while addressing muslim community. addressing the muslim community. we know. haven't we just don't know. we haven't had the issue . had much clarity on the issue. >> well, let me tell you again , >> well, let me tell you again, keir starmer and the labour party has a deep respect for our armed forces . they embody the armed forces. they embody the values that the british people values that the british people value most loyalty, integrity , value most loyalty, integrity, service, courage and keir starmer will be at the national memorial service and remembrance

service at the cenotaph on sunday by paying our respects and honouring those who've served . and on behalf of the served. and on behalf of the labour party. >> okay, mr healey, a quick word on your housing policy, which you've released this morning . you've released this morning. it's already come in for some criticism. i see that peter truscott , the head of crest truscott, the head of crest nicholson, has said these plans are all well and good, but it's going to take five years for the first homes to be built. going to take five years for the first homes to be built . that's first homes to be built. that's too long, isn't it, mr healey ? too long, isn't it, mr healey? >> it won't take five years, but he is right that the housebuilding level is in freefall. it's a direct function of the way that rishi sunak has caved in to his backbenchers and given them a wholesale opt out in some areas from build figures . so we can do in some areas from build figures .so we can do in in some areas from build figures . so we can do in the first six months of a new government through a combination of new policy and new planning guidance . yes, we can restore for the mandatory housing numbers, we can ensure that all local

authorities have plans and that's the way you get more building more houses built, but also the way that you get the infrastructure that's needed to support communities in the future. so we're in a hole. the government has no plans to fix that. government has no plans to fix that . and government has no plans to fix that. and what government has no plans to fix that . and what we've been that. and what we've been setting out today is the way that in six months of a new labour government we can start to fix the problems that we've seen in the failings over the last 13 years of the conservatives. >> so, mr healey, you're saying that housebuilding go up that housebuilding will go up under labour? we could have a under labour? if we could have a quick answer to the quick yes, no answer to the following question, would following question, that would be will be great. to conclude, will defence spending go up under labour ? the labour will always labour? the labour will always spend what's required on defence. will it go up though, keeping this country safe? >> the last labour, the last labour year in government we were spending 2.5% of our national income on defence. that's a level that the tories have not matched or got anywhere close to in any of the following 13 years. okay mr healey, thank

you very much indeed for joining us for the first time on the camilla tominey show. >> this morning. lovely to speak to you. now don't go anywhere. earlier in the week, i caught up with the famous canadian psychologist big on psychologist and a big figure on the political right and indeed on internet. jordan on the internet. jordan peterson. a wide ranging peterson. we had a wide ranging discussion how discussion on everything, on how he british he thinks the british conservatives to who conservatives are doing to who he to see the he would like to see win the next president election in the us. able hear all us. you'll be able to hear all of just a minute. don't of that in just a minute. don't go anywhere

gb news radio. >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now as i have said throughout the show earlier this week, i spoke to the canadian clinical psychologist and conservative thinker, dr. jordan peterson , who sold out the o2 peterson, who sold out the o2 arena for a speech. peterson is an international bestselling author. his 2018 self—help book, 12 rules for life, has sold more than 5 million copies worldwide, and many people, particularly young men, credit peterson with helping them turn their lives around. but he's also attracted controversy with many on the left accusing him of promoting toxic masculinity and even misogyny is misogyny. either way, he's built a wide and loyal following with millions of followers around the world on his social media platforms, and he's become an important figure on the right of international politics. the other good thing about him is if you ask him a question, he answers it pretty

straight. i caught up with him earlier in the week before his speech. see. thank you for your time today. spoken about time today. you've spoken about trying to tilt the world towards heaven and away from hell . life heaven and away from hell. life feels a bit hellish at the moment. if you think about the war in ukraine and recent events in israel , we've had a lot of in israel, we've had a lot of divisiveness on the streets of london in recent days and weeks. do you think that there's a way of reverse nursing, the sort of tribalism associated with, say, identity politics? >> well , we're we're >> well, we're we're experimenting with how to do that on a large scale. this week here in london. so at the conference that that's occurring around us and do i think it's possible to reverse it? i think it's always possible to reverse it. i mean, look, the soviet russia dumped the soviet union, you know, maybe you're not you know, and maybe you're not very with russia the very happy with russia at the moment, but they did decide that that totalitarian experiment was inappropriate. we locked ourselves down miserably for two years. absolutely pointlessly toying with totalitarian ism,

copying china in essence, very rapidly. but we decided that maybe that wasn't such a good idea and backed off. and so i don't think things are ever set so miserably that there's no hope. so and certainly i don't think that's the case with the world right now, because the honzon world right now, because the horizon of opportunities that's in front of us is at least as vast the horizon of vast as the horizon of catastrophe . and i say . catastrophe. and i would say. vaster because i think in the final analysis, good triumphs over evil. i think it's more powerful in the final analysis that truth is more powerful than falsehood. virtually by definition, although we do live in this post—truth world, i mean, we've seen around some of the debate around israel this week of people perpetuating falsehoods. >> we also live in this society now where the prevailing attitude is if you don't agree with me, then you're not just wrong, but you're a bigot. and a

racist and deserve to be cancelled. and so or worse or worse. so i think there's a perception that western governments particularly have been weak on woke , they've been been weak on woke, they've been weak on the so called tolerance, who are actually extremely intolerant. how does the silent majority cope with this? >> well, you've often too often, perhaps by putting their head in the sand. i mean, that's certainly the case in my country because it's taken multiple dismal turns for the worst in the last eight years. but it's led liberals. there were led led the liberals. there were led by a very charismatic leader who is narcissistic is extraordinarily narcissistic and who's used compassion . look, and who's used compassion. look, if you're really narcissistic and manipulate lviv, the best disguise is compassion . and you disguise is compassion. and you can get very good at acting that out. if you're very good at out. and if you're very good at it, it's very hard to stand against because you're against you because you're constant . well, i'm just constant excuses. well, i'm just doing this for the good of someone else, and for only someone else, and not for only the good of someone else, but for the most for the good of the most oppressed and suffering . you oppressed and suffering. you know, i when i first came know, when i when i first came to some political trouble , let's

to some political trouble, let's say in canada in 2016, i spoke up against a bill that i thought was an unwarranted intrusion into the realm of free speech and free thought, which is what it was. but it was guised in the cloak of, well , we're just cloak of, well, we're just caring for the least of the lesser which who was, in this case people confused about their sexuality and their gender, trans people, let's say. and the, you know, the immediate accusation towards me was that i was hateful and a bigot. well, you know, it's why did you choose this hill to die on? why why don't you care about these poor suffering people? can't you just use the language that would make them feel better? and then if you are also, you know, why are the government's weak on that sort of thing? like i talk to conservatives and classic liberals all over the western world, individual by individual . world, individual by individual. and although this is starting to change to some degree, they are all terrified of being torn apart by the bloodthirsty mob. and no wonder. >> but then that suggests that

politicians may have lost their courage and i'm wondering what your analysis is of rishi sunak the mob just got more effective . the mob just got more effective. >> yeah, maybe. yeah, but >> yeah, well, maybe. yeah, but you've with some you've met with some conservative mps week. conservative mps this week. >> has rishi sunak's, >> i mean, has rishi sunak's, conservative ism lost its way? >> well , he inherited a mess to >> well, he inherited a mess to you know, to be fair. and how bofis you know, to be fair. and how boris johnson got enticed down the net zero road is just beyond me. i think it probably had something to do with his young wife, you know, but he swallowed hook, line and sinker. the apocalyptic that apocalyptic narrative that implied that the only way fonnard into the future was to decimate poor people and to make energy more polluting and ten times as expensive, which is rather a preposterous plan as we can see by how it's laid itself out in the uk. and even more stunningly, in germany . and poor stunningly, in germany. and poor sunakisin stunningly, in germany. and poor sunak is in a position where he has to go that looks like it was a mistake, which isn't really a glorious vision of leadership and i don't really know what he's supposed to do with that mess. now what he's been doing

is rolling it back to some degree and you might say perhaps not fast enough. and i suppose i would incline to agree with that. but by the same token, i'm glad i'm not in his shoes. what the conference here this week was designed to suggest, at least in part was a broader vision than the mere vision of oops, it looks like we made a mistake on the energy and environment front , although environment front, although there are some conservative voices . voices. >> you've just touched on this in this interview who feel like they are muted. you know, you hear miriam cates or danny kruger talk about the value of family. and then there are people the wings to people waiting in the wings to clamp down on that. you're being sexist. being derogatory sexist. you're being derogatory towards women by referencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role'omen by referencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role in1en by referencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role in an by referencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role in a familyferencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role in a family .erencing sexist. you're being derogatory towa|role in a family . you've] their role in a family. you've been scapegoated by the left, some could argue, once described , some could argue, once described i , some could argue, once described , i think as how was it a pseudo intellectual hero to the incel community? >> because that was a pretty good line, that one. >> i mean, what's your reaction to those sorts of criticisms, which must be very hurtful?

>> well, they were hurtful for a good while, but after a while, they sort of became comical they just sort of became comical because more and because they just got more and more and look , every more absurd. and look, every category has a an ideal at the centre and a margin at the fringe . and if the centre is fringe. and if the centre is destroyed , the margin will be destroyed, the margin will be demolished as well. now the radical does think that you can bnng radical does think that you can bring the margin to the centre, but that's preposterous because a margin is a plurality and if you bring the plurality to the centre, either you demolish the demolish everything, you demolish everything, you demolish the category. well look, if you have the nuclear family as the minimal ideal, obviously only you simultaneously exclude to some degree those people who aren't in that constellation now. so that brings up a real problem which the leftists point out too, is like how do you have a category, say, with the family, the nuclear family, as the minimal without being minimal ideal without being prejudiced against other people? and it's something like an informed and humble tolerance,

you know, like there's divorce in my immediate family , me, you in my immediate family, me, you know, and certainly in my extended family, my sisters being divorced , my brothers being divorced, my brothers being divorced, my brothers being divorced, my daughters being divorced, my daughters being divorced, my daughters being divorced, every family has people in it who are single or who are widowed or or who are in gay relationships. i mean, the family is an ideal that's been breached more than it's adhered to. but that doesn't mean you get to sacrifice the ideal and for the ones who are most vulnerable and victimised by the breakdown of the nuclear family, are 100% children. and it's plain and absolutely simple children without fathers, for example, do way worse, way worse. and that if the evidence that's being accrued on that right side isn't convincing to you, then no evidence about anything ever would be convincing about anything . convincing about anything. >> although the alternative view to that would be that you are stigmatising single mothers by saying that because actually you could have an extreme i am stigmatising single mothers.

>> problem though? >> is that a problem though? >> is that a problem though? >> a strong and >> if you have a strong and empowered woman who bringing empowered woman who is bringing up the absence of a up a family in the absence of a father who actually maybe their absence welcome, maybe the absence is welcome, maybe the dad wasn't a good influence, you'd be better you'd arguably be better off with strong mother, more with the strong mother, more than parents. than two parents. >> obviously >> well, we there's obviously exceptional cases where the exceptional cases where the exception is the preferable alternative . alternative. >> yeah, i've certainly had couples for example, or people in my clinical practise for whom the divorce was clearly the right alternative. they were mad . and two people who were narcissistically psychopathic, who making their lives who were making their lives absolute but that doesn't absolute hell. but that doesn't mean get to escape from mean that you get to escape from the ideal without the price of stigmatisation, you can do a good job as a single mother, but that doesn't make it an ideal, certainly not a society ideal. >> you mentioning narcissism again. i mean, do we think that individualism has turned into narcissism is narcissism and that there is a greater prevalence narcissism ? >> well, jean twenge, jean twenge has made that case. >> she's quite a quite a good social personality psychologist . social personality psychologist. >> you've described >> i mean, you've described trudeau a narcissist. trudeau as a narcissist.

>> you describe, for >> would you describe, for instance, harry and meghan as narcissists ? narcissists? >> i to tread lightly with >> i have to tread lightly with such categorisation . being a such categorisation. being a clinical psychologist, you know , clinical psychologist, you know, i'll leave myself to speculation . well, twangy is the best source on this, and she believes, and think there's believes, and i think there's some in this is that the some truth in this is that the hyper emphasis, for example, on the development of self—esteem at costs in the education at all costs in the education system, which was a pathology generated the faculty of generated by the faculty of education, you know, their hides has produced a more a generation of young people who are tilted more in a narcissistic direction, can i just ask you about multiculturalism ? about multiculturalism? >> because we have witnessed some extraordinary scenes on the streets of london. we've had the call for an intifada from london to gaza . we've got a huge amount to gaza. we've got a huge amount of division at the moment between some sectors of the muslim community and jews. we've seen an uplift in islamophobia and in anti—semitism in recent times . does that suggest that times. does that suggest that multiculturalism has failed? >> well , there was no such thing

>> well, there was no such thing as multicultural philosophy . as multicultural philosophy. it's so it's so pure . and what it's so it's so pure. and what moralising and unsophisticated that it's kind of a miracle of stupidity . i that it's kind of a miracle of stupidity. i mean, that it's kind of a miracle of stupidity . i mean, first of all, stupidity. i mean, first of all, we've always had a multicultural world that's why there's been wars, right ? so world that's why there's been wars, right? so along with multiculturalism goes wars when the cultures don't get along. so what happens when you import that? well two things. you either import that under a unifying rubric , which would be unifying rubric, which would be something like the melting pot in the united states, or you retain the multicultural divisions. okay. and you might say, well, benefit from the say, well, we benefit from the diversity is arguably diversity which is arguably true. know, i mean , when true. you know, i mean, when i came to london in the 1980s, i went to a reasonably good restaurant and i was fed canned spaghetti . you know, the food spaghetti. you know, the food here was to call it dismal was an absolute compliment. and so one of the benefits of multiculturalism has been a radical diversification, let's

say, in in cuisine. and that's a huge benefit . but if you say, in in cuisine. and that's a huge benefit. but if you think you can import a multitude of cultures without a unifying rubric and not import the problem of interpersonal and social conflict, you're either you're either blind or stupid or both. and both is a dreadful combination version. so like what on what basis does multicolour naturalism become peace ? you wave some magic wand peace? you wave some magic wand and all of a sudden everybody gives up their cultural differences and can live in harmony. harmony defined by what? is there some unifying a harmony? well, if there's some unifying harmony, then multiculturalism isn't the solution. it's like unity through diversity. you know , through diversity. you know, peace through war. you know, it's a preposterous it's a preposterous claim . it's foolish preposterous claim. it's foolish andits preposterous claim. it's foolish and it's extreme . and so and and it's extreme. and so and then when there's tension like there is in the world now, well, you see the rifts emerge. and why wouldn't they? especially if you're telling people to, you know, adhere to the dictates of

your previous culture. yeah so it's just a couple more quick questions, because i know we're pushed for time. >> um, would a biden or trump administration round >> um, would a biden or trump ad|betteration round >> um, would a biden or trump ad|better for n round >> um, would a biden or trump ad|better for the round >> um, would a biden or trump ad|better for the western round >> um, would a biden or trump ad|better for the western .wund >> um, would a biden or trump ad|better for the western . world be better for the western. world >> i mean, if someone put a gun to my head , i'd pick trump. if to my head, i'd pick trump. if there was a gun to my head. track record , you know , he no track record, you know, he no war under his administration and he brought in the abraham accords. yeah well , i would be accords. yeah well, i would be pretty happy with another four years of no war and an extension of the abraham accords . does of the abraham accords. does that mean that trump would be my preferred candidate? no no. and i'm not pleased with biden for a variety of reasons, not least . variety of reasons, not least. and this is something particularly salient at the moment. the saudis, i believe, and i have reason to believe this i believe they would have signed the abraham accords two

years ago. yeah if biden would have been willing to give trump some and believe the some credit and i believe the democrats didn't pursue saudi arabia at that point because it would have been inconvenient to give so they give trump credit. and so they isolated and alienated him when they could have given him some credit. he might have just fidden credit. he might have just ridden off into the sunset if he'd got some credit for what he had done. but turned him had done. but they turned him into monster they to into the monster they needed to fumigate against. and now they have monster and have the monster back. and now we situation in israel we have the situation in israel right where iran is using hamas to agitate the islamic world against saudi arabia, essentially , as far as i can essentially, as far as i can tell, that's what's going on. yes. so i'm not very happy with the biden administration because of that. and i'm also not happy with the democrat inability to deal with the woke left. you know, when the squad run by aoc was was promoting the pro hamas demonstrations in new york, the white house spokesman did come out and denounce them. that was the first time in years, six

years. i've talked to many democrats where i actually saw the democrats draw a line. i've asked 40 democrat that i've talked to some on my podcast , talked to some on my podcast, when does the left go too far? not one of them would answer. not one of them would answer. not one, not even robert kennedy . he said, i'm not trying to run a divisive campaign. it's like, fair enough. you know , but you fair enough. you know, but you could a between you could draw a line between you and the communist psychopaths , and the communist psychopaths, you know, that would be a you know, so that would be a good start. >> well, hey, final question. >> well, hey, final question. >> which of your 12 rules for life do you think is the most important? >> truth or at least >> tell the truth or at least don't lie. yeah you know, if people are wondering , even people are wondering, even people are wondering, even people who who labour under the burden of genuine oppression, if they're wondering what they can do to set the world right, one of the things you can do to set the world right that you could do is you could stop lying, stop lying . lying. >> good advice to our politicians . i think that was politicians. i think that was the clinical psychologist and bestselling author, jordan peterson, speaking to me earlier in the week . you can watch an

in the week. you can watch an extended version of the interview on gb news youtube channel. now, it's been a big week for the covid inquiry. this week. saw a particularly sweary session featuring boris johnson's chief of staff, johnson's former chief of staff, dominic cummings. but is the inquiry shedding more heat than light? and has it got its priorities right? i'm going to be joined by david davis to discuss all of this in just a minute .

7:00 this evening. gb news is the people's . channel

the people's. channel >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. now, as promised, i'm joined now by top tory veteran tory david davis. he's the mp for haltemprice and howden, dave , i wanted you to howden, dave, i wanted you to reflect, first of all on the covid inquiry. it made the headunesin covid inquiry. it made the headlines in the week most notably for dominic cummings, fruity use of language, but are you like me, a bit worried that this inquiry isn't going to really deliver the findings that we need? it seems to be obsessed with sort of the trivial oddity of the infighting in number 10 and not really answering any proper on our pandemic proper questions on our pandemic preparedness , whether we would preparedness, whether we would be able to avoid a similar crisis in the future and whether indeed the modelling that was relied upon for the decisions made around lockdown was accurate and should have been relied upon, should we have taken a more swedish approach ? i taken a more swedish approach? i haven't heard any of these answers yet. i don't know about you. >> well, the one person who's i

think talked about it at all is mark woolhouse is the best evidence anywhere . and i evidence anywhere. and i recommend your your your viewers to look up mr woolhouse lho us . to look up mr woolhouse lho us. he's a professor of epidemiol in scotland in edinburgh , and he's scotland in edinburgh, and he's actually very sensible . but actually very sensible. but you're dead right. i mean, this case. i've forgotten his name . case. i've forgotten his name. who? who's doing all the cross questioning is strong on theatre and completely absence on forensic analysis. i mean , he forensic analysis. i mean, he deals with witnesses is really from a very polar point of view. he was very nice to the deputy deputy cabinet secretary. he was ferocious in his questioning . if ferocious in his questioning. if it was really questioning of . it was really questioning of. cummings. now, look, i am absolutely the least at the last person in the world to be a fan of dominic cummings. but i don't think it was an intelligent cross questioning at all. all it was about was his swearing. well, frankly, what does that matter? mean, you all

matter? i mean, you know. all right. great, great tv. right. it makes great, great tv. and it's fun to watch . uh, and it it's fun to watch. uh, but actually, this inquiry is about stopping us making the same mistakes. next time . yes. same mistakes. next time. yes. you know, mean inquiry. are always want to pass all the blame? yes and if you can do that this is the wrong way to do it anyway. but. but it's about stopping it happening again to the tune of hundreds of thousands that's what thousands of lives. that's what rides on this. and it's done not a single thing to actually advance that cause you're right. where's the analysis of the of the previous preparation? i was in cabinet when operation cygnus i think it's called, was reported back on. it was a hopeless exercise. i only spent about 20 minutes in cabinet. i actually said i think i was the only other cabinet minister other than jeremy hunt who spoke and prime minister and i and the prime minister and i just need to spend just said we need to spend a whole day this, not 20 minutes. >> you know, i mean, i know you're no fan of i know you're no fan of boris johnson, david,

but at the same time, with such a lack of preparedness, wouldn't but at the same time, with such a la primeyreparedness, wouldn't but at the same time, with such a la prime minister|ess, wouldn't but at the same time, with such a la prime minister have~ouldn't but at the same time, with such a la prime minister have found|'t any prime minister have found themselves when it themselves in a pickle when it came to actually handling this pandemic ? pandemic? >> yes, they would. there's no doubt about it, because nobody was prepared for it. the rest of the world was essentially copying china . i'd never thought copying china. i'd never thought i'd ever say those words , but i'd ever say those words, but yeah, it was essentially copying china. very nearly and if china. we very nearly and if we'd gone on our sort of previous scientific advice, we very nearly followed the swedish route. um, but, but we buckled. we panicked for about ten days. we panicked for about ten days. we panicked for about ten days. we panicked . and, um, and if we panicked. and, um, and if i want to blame boris for anything, it would be for that. it would be for. for letting his people panic. the truth is, a lot of this has been posed, by the way, a sort of lockdown versus nothing. and of course , versus nothing. and of course, that in itself is stupid because actually it's a whole range of options. you know , the swedes options. you know, the swedes didn't go on partying every day throughout throughout covid. they they behave with common

sense. they they behave with common sense . they stopped mass sense. they stopped mass gatherings , you know, big sports gatherings, you know, big sports events and whatever . and they events and whatever. and they made some of the same mistakes as us. but, you know, they went as us. but, you know, they went a common sense route. we could have sold that to the public. you know, the other argument, of course, being put is, oh, well, we just followed the public, which true. we could which is probably true. we could have the argument to the have sold the argument to the public, look, do this. public, look, don't do this. don't do this. let's just protect the elderly. let's just protect the elderly. let's just protect care homes protect the people in care homes . you know, that would be a good idea. let's let's idea. for a start. let's let's make sure we do proper research and do what we did properly, which was successful on vaccines and so on. there was a middle way in all this. and actually , way in all this. and actually, the middle way would probably have been worth tens of thousands of lives. and millions of people's futures. i'm thinking of children and universities, you all that. none of that. none of that surface being covered. no worry at all. frankly if it goes on like this, i'd cancel blasted inquiry. it really is not. it's going to cost hundreds of millions of

pounds and it's not going to do anything. >> and also, let's reflect on the fact that sweden's inquiry has already concluded and lessons have been learned. let's just move on to the mail. on sunday, i don't know if you've seen it, david. lots more allegations from nadine dorries. we've already heard from her talking michael gove talking about michael gove cabal, down ideas . you cabal, bringing down ideas. you were obviously one of his opponents for the leadership in those days, so perhaps you've got a comment whether that's got a comment on whether that's true. there's true. also, there's quite serious allegations runs to suggest quotes from the headlines. the tory party covered up for serial rapist mp. do we need an investigation? oliver dowden was party chairman at the time , claims no knowledge at the time, claims no knowledge of this. >> all i've seen the headlines. i haven't read the actual article. um, but well, if there is serious evidence of a cover up , then then it should be up, then then it should be exposed . there's no two ways exposed. there's no two ways about it. it's a, it's a rape case isn't it? from from from what i heard or an alleged case. well, you know, there's no argument in the world that can

support covering up such a thing . if it's true. now, i know literally zero about that. but but obviously, if i mean, covering up a case like that is a criminal offence in its own right. so it's probably a matter for the police, for not people. indeed. >> let's ask you about something you do . you do. >> i was going to ask you in terms of sort of plots. yes plots. >> michael gove is bringing bringing down leaders . bringing down leaders. >> there was there was a part of me that sort of reacted well, gosh, there's a political plot to bring down a tory leader, hold the front page. you know , hold the front page. you know, it calls to bring political plots, to bring down leaders for as long as i can remember when i was a student and margaret thatcher was working on bringing down ted heath, you know, and in that . but in terms of that respect. but in terms of what she has said about about a plot against duncan smith, yeah, there was i mean, i was his chairman at the time for a while. and then and then in his

in his shadow cabinet as other things. and the there was obviously a plot marshalled against him . and 1 or 2 of the against him. and 1 or 2 of the names that she's mentioned were involved in that. dougie smith. so i think, yeah, he was one of them. i think michael gove he was. he was. he was famous for all sorts of other things, wild party and so on. yes. but the, but the gove i don't know gove i just don't know. he might well have been. i mean it was quite a an extended group and bear in mind it brought in michael howard as, as his replacement. and quite a lot of people are involved in the sort of the, the, the cameroon set were. yeah the, the cameroon set were. yeah the fringes. i don't know how much they drove it, but the fringes. so it'll be when it comes out it'll be an interesting read from that point of view. now the fact that these people turn out to be serial people may turn out to be serial plotters would be no surprise either. >> what michael gove, a serial plotter ? plotter? >> well, he's. yeah, well, he certainly boris would take that

view of him after the way he treated boris during boris's first abortive run at the leadership. of course, gove was very famous for what he did there . but whether he was there. but whether he was serially involved in all of them, i just don't know. but it's possible. it's possible. look, nadine's been close to the closer to the centre of power than i have . yeah, for a long than i have. yeah, for a long time. and not. i'm not one time. and i'm not. i'm not one of those who just dismiss her. she's a very intelligent lady. she's a very intelligent lady. she know, she's from she you know, she's come from a like from a lowly background like me, from a lowly background . um, but she's a very intelligent lady. she's been very controversial at a time, very controversial at a time, very brave in some of her views. so i would read it seriously . i so i would read it seriously. i don't i can't i can't dismiss it at all. >> and one brief answer, please, from you, david, on the issue of this march on armistice day, should it go ahead . should it go ahead. >> it can go ahead, but not it. not through the cenotaph . i not through the cenotaph. i mean, it wants to start in hyde park. fine if it wants to go to the american embassy, fine. go over to chelsea bridge. you

know, it's as simple as that. and the police have the right and powers the there are acts of parliament going back to 1986, right through to 2023, which gives the government and police lots of powers to both injunct and control and put limits on this. and that's what they should do. david davis clear as crystal as ever, thank you very, very much for your contribution this morning. >> lovely to speak to you. now we keep on hearing about a rise in shoplifting cases. this month. 88 retail bosses, including the heads of tesco and sainsbury's, wrote to the home office demanding action on shoplifting, which more than doubled and doubled in the past three years. so it really caught my attention this week when i read a private company , read about a private company, emi, that has taken the law into its own hands and privately prosecuted a prolific shoplifter after he mounted an overnight raid on an m&s store stealing £500 worth of sirloin and t—bone steak and 20 bottles of prosecco does beg the question how on earth he got that stuff out of

the store. but anyway, since launching its anti shoplifting task force, my local bobby the company has privately prosecuted around 300 shoplifters. so to talk me through how it's been done, i'm joined now by david mckelvie, managing director of tmi. david how have you done this? i mean, why have you been neededin this? i mean, why have you been needed in the first place? is probably the operative question. >> i mean, we've been privately prosecuting people for about 12 years, but in relation to fake goods, counterfeit goods, that sort of stuff. and then about about three years ago , um, our about three years ago, um, our bobbies who operate across london and the suburbs in various beats were finding that they were being called on a daily basis to deal with retail crime, to deal with shoplifters . crime, to deal with shoplifters. the issue was that the police were either not turning up, turning up very late or when they turned up, nothing was then happening. so we looked at other opportunities to how we could opportunities as to how we could bnng opportunities as to how we could bring to justice. bring these people to justice. and so was a natural and so it was a natural transition then prosecute

transition to then prosecute shoplifters. i suppose. um, in cases where the police wouldn't do so. >> is it your feeling, david, that the police simply don't take shoplifting seriously enough? >>i enough? >> i don't think it's the case. they don't take shoplifting seriously enough. i think that resources do not allow them to do so. i mean, if you just look at what's going on now in london, you know, they are stretched beyond belief. if they're having to call in resources . i'm outside of london resources. i'm outside of london to manage the difficulties they've got at the moment. um, and you take a shoplifter, if and if you take a shoplifter, if you if you catch a shoplifter, you're up two police you're tying up two police officers for potentially 16 hours off the streets for , you hours off the streets for, you know, for a £50 shoplifter, we do things a very different way , do things a very different way, but we achieve the same success. we get people before a court , we get people before a court, they get convicted and they are sentenced appropriately, or they're given the help to get past their drug addiction or their alcohol addictions . their alcohol addictions. >> yeah, i mean, david, in your experience , are a lot of these experience, are a lot of these shoplifters prolific criminals or we've had some talk in recent

times about people opportunistically shoplift getting because they're facing a cost of living crisis and can't afford, for instance, to buy baby milk for their children. >> you no absolute rubbish . it's >> you no absolute rubbish. it's the stuff we deal with day in, day out, and we are at the coalface dealing with shoplifters on a daily basis. they are either organised criminal gangs who are stealing thousands of pounds and pounds worth across london and worth of stuff across london and the or alternately , sadly the uk, or alternately, sadly they are. they have alcohol or drug addictions which again is organised crime because they are then supplying that stuff to the handlers . yeah, very, very handlers. yeah, very, very rarely do we see people who are stealing, you know, and if they do, they steal a sandwich or a cup of coffee, whatever. we're not, you know, we're not the retailers are not interested in those when we see these viral >> but when we see these viral videos and maybe they take place in america, actually, but it could here of people could come here of just people going up going into shops, loading up carrier bags. there's usually a security guard just watching it happen. security guard just watching it happen . why isn't there more happen. why isn't there more intervention ? i mean, presumably

intervention? i mean, presumably we've heard from the head of iceland that people are worried about clobbered over the about being clobbered over the head if they and head or worse, if they try and stop people their path . stop people in their path. >> it happens daily. we see videos daily from all of the retail boots that we operate in. um, shoplifters, no full well that they can walk into certain stores, they can take whatever they they'll literally clear shelves into bags in front of staff who will be standing there filming them in front of security officers . um, there is security officers. um, there is anissue security officers. um, there is an issue here insofar as some of the retailers need to look at their internal policies. it's not just about about security, not just about about security, not getting involved, you know, potentially some of these security officers are told if you intervene, you will get sacked. um, but it's about the back end of that is are the retailers going to then supply the cctv and the witness statement to allow us or the police to prosecute? and there's a big issue with that at the moment. >> but also, don't you think the

retailers are thinking, is this going to be worth my while if i supply all this evidence to the police and nothing happens as something will happen? >> mean, we on a daily basis, >> i mean, we on a daily basis, we're convicting people in court on basis. the courts do on a daily basis. the courts do take people, you know, take shoplifting we've take people, you know, take shop|people we've take people, you know, take shop|people getting we've take people, you know, take shop|people getting locked up, seen people getting locked up, you know, for three months, six months, a year . on you know, for three months, six months, a year. on top of you know, for three months, six months, a year . on top of that, months, a year. on top of that, the court is the only means by which you can enforce a drug addiction order or an alcohol sentence so that you can get these people help . it's the only these people help. it's the only way you have to put these people before a court and you have to convict them and you have to get them the help they need or lock them the help they need or lock them away. >> so you're talking about quite large gangs large scale criminal gangs shoplifting various shoplifting from various different hours as part different retail hours as part of a kind of criminal conspiracy . get that people . see, i get that people listening and watching this show, however, are sceptical about we're not going to about this. we're not going to look at anyone shoplifting under £200 worth of goods. i think the general looks that and general public looks at that and says, basically says, well, basically you're just a licence to

just giving people a licence to petty thief. that's a cogent argument, isn't it? david unfortunately, yeah. >> the government brought in a law in 2014 that effectively we don't have a word decriminalised, but it it made shoplifting under £200, a summary only offence that sent a message out , the message it sent message out, the message it sent out to police and the cps was that anything under £200, you know, is not really worth prosecuting. and all of the criminals know that. so you will see people going in and stealing , knowing that there is nothing going to happen to them, providing they stick below the £200 limit. so should that £200 limit be taken away? >> yes . thank limit be taken away? >> yes. thank you for that succinct answer . and finally, succinct answer. and finally, david, i presume that applications or indeed demand for your services have gone up lately because shoplifting, as i said earlier, has more than doubled in the past year. >> yeah, absolutely. and we've proven that old fashioned

policing still works every beat that we operate, resale beat, we have seen significant reductions in crime . and the most important in crime. and the most important thing around this is making people feel safe. retailers in those areas feel safe. they know that they can go to work and do not risk being assaulted or being threatened or any violence towards them. that's the most important thing . important thing. >> david mckelvy, thank you very much indeed forjoining me this much indeed for joining me this morning. the good work. morning. keep up the good work. good all the staff good luck to all of the staff quite bravely working for your firm, . well, there you had firm, tmi. well, there you had it. we can prosecute shoplifters if we have the impetus and it. we can prosecute shoplifters if intention.ye the impetus and it. we can prosecute shoplifters if intention. now> impetus and it. we can prosecute shoplifters if intention. now it's petus and it. we can prosecute shoplifters if intention. now it's been and the intention. now it's been a fascinating show. don't forget, you to the you can listen back to the jordan interview in you can listen back to the jordion interview in you can listen back to the jordion the interview in you can listen back to the jordion the gb interview in you can listen back to the jordion the gb newsview in you can listen back to the jordion the gb news youtube full on the gb news youtube channel. i'm going to be back next week at 9.30. but up next, it's my paper reviewer extraordinaire, portillo extraordinaire, michael portillo

good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. >> find tranqed ability after a stormy week with two hours of politics world affairs , theatre politics world affairs, theatre and good conversation . a and good conversation. a tempestuous week not least at the ongoing covid inquiry where former downing street chief of staff dominic cummings defended a typically expletive strewn denunciation of boris johnson's handung denunciation of boris johnson's handling of the pandemic. but

the inquiry has faced criticism itself for being more interested in scandalous whatsapp messages than the substantial questions of whether lockdown worked and was necessary elsewhere in politics. keir starmer continues to be buffeted by rival forces in his own party over the israel—hamas war. i'll discuss all that with our political panel if, as widely predicted, the conservatives are ousted from power at the general election next year, how will historian remember their tumultuous 14 years in office? since 2010, an early draft of that history has been published by the daily telegraph's chief political correspondent, ben riley—smith. he'll be here to discuss his new book, the rise right to rule. it's four weeks and a day since hamas terrorists poured into israel and slaughtered 1400 civilians. the ensuing conflict and the israeli ground invasion of gaza have dominated the headlines . as dominated the headlines. as a month on, i want to look at what a shape the western

interpretation of events